Are We Just Not Sexually Compatible? Part Two

For the first time in an Esther Calling, Esther speaks to the partner of the caller from last week to hear his perspective on the story. Then, she does a session with the two of them as they detail how they feel stuck in their sexual pattern, where he always initiates, but when he initiates, she freezes. They try to figure out where they can go from here. For the month of January, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad-free version of all the episodes. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Esther Perel?

  En la siguiente sesión, discutiremos el asalto sexual. Y quiero que sepan esto antes de escuchar.

• 0:18Esther Perel?

  La semana pasada, tuve una sesión con una joven mujer américa negra que envió una pregunta:

• 0:27Esther Perel?

  ¿Crees que existe algo como la incompatibilidad sexual? Pero mientras hablábamos, se hizo muy rápido claro que esto no era realmente sobre incompatibilidad. Esto era sobre su experiencia de violación y cómo encontró una manera de reengajar sexualmente con su compañero creando un escrito en el que ella estaba en cargo de todo para que nunca más sintiera la pasividad, la desayuna y la impotencia que había marcado esa experiencia de violación que pasó. Y lo que van a escuchar ahora es mi conversación con su compañero actual

• 1:11Esther Perel?

  que me invité a reunirse conmigo porque realmente necesitaba escuchar el lado de su historia. ¿Cómo se encontró todo esto con él? ¿Cuánto lo personalizaba esto? Porque se mantenía rechazado, ¿cómo podría no pensar que esto tiene que ver con él o esto tiene que ver con ella, en lugar de que esto tenga que ver con lo que se le hizo? Así que esta es mi conversación con él y empieza en los pies de mi discusión con ella de cuál ha sido el efecto de este evento traumático en su intimidad sexual actual con su novio.

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• 3:25Esther Perel?

  You know, I ended the conversation with your girlfriend and I just thought I would love to hear how he sees it. And I said, I don't know if you've had a conversation since she and I spoke. So tell me where I meet you. Do you even know what we're supposed to talk about or how this came to be? So I can fill in the gaps.

• 3:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, we spoke about the conversation that you guys had. It was about how we're not always on the same time schedule when it comes to intimacy.

• 4:06Speaker 03

  I don't know, it's just been something that I think has been more of a challenge navigating than other relationships that were more casual, I suppose. It felt like originally, you know, when, when we first met that we were more on the same page, but I don't know, somewhere along the way. I'm not exactly sure, like, what changed, yeah.

• 4:33Esther Perel?

  How would you describe your experience? From where you are, when I say, tell me, what stands out for you in your sexual relationship with your girlfriend, what would you say?

• 4:45Speaker 03

  When we do have sex, it's good. But I think a lot of the time

• 4:54Speaker 03

  she doesn't want to be as present. I don't really know why that is. I think, I think a lot of the time it's, you know, she doesn't always like wanna engage, which is okay. I guess my point is that sex once a week or something like that, you know, is normal, you know, or what, what I would see, you know, as normal.

• 5:23Esther Perel?

  And what are some of the questions that you carry inside of you?

• 5:29Esther Perel?

  That either you haven't asked her? Or haven't found the answers satisfying?

• 5:37Speaker 03

  Well, I, I'm pretty open about asking questions. So I, I don't, I don't really think there's anything that I've been wanting to ask that I haven't asked.

• 5:47Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm. And any questions you've asked where the answer didn't really meet you?

• 5:58Speaker 03

  I just think that when I asked like, what could be done differently?

• 6:04Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 6:05Speaker 03

  You know, she'll say like, I need to prolong my, I guess, like, advances? You know, just based on how, how our, our daily schedules are and the time that we have. You know, realistically in a day, I just don't really know how, what I could do differently. And that's never really been made, you know, very clear to me. We just kinda like dance around it.

• 6:38Esther Perel?

  What is foreplay like?

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Um, usually, I'll be the one to initiate. I'll rub, you know, the outer part of her thigh or, you know, her stomach or something like intimate places like that. And uh, there's been a lot of times where she's had to tell me like, oh, this or that spot triggers me. And that way it's been a learning process. But, but it's always, you know, me initiating and feeling my way through.

• 7:12Esther Perel?

  Hmm.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  If we do engage intimately, you know, it'll be a while of me kinda like rubbing here and there and we might kiss some. There, there's a lot of the times where I'll, I'll start the foreplay. And then, you know, I'll get like stopped. And we've talked about it and she says like, you know, it's just something that she's not fully like, you know, conscious of when it's happening, like a knee jerk reaction. So that part of it kinda makes it difficult because I'm like, I'm having to, to interpret signals that are

• 7:50Speaker 03

  coming across negatively and remember not to read into it or something of that nature. And so it can make things a bit confusing at times.

• 8:05Esther Perel?

  When you say triggering, you mean what?

• 8:09Speaker 03

  You know, just make something that uh, makes her feel uncomfortable.

• 8:12Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 8:15Esther Perel?

  But from uncomfortable that makes her either wanna stop or that makes her continue but not really be present.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, like she might like knock my hand away or something. And if I do continue, then she might let me continue, but not really be present. So it can make things kind of confusing and and it can make me get easily frustrated, you know.

• 8:43Esther Perel?

  And then what do you do?

• 8:45Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, I I try to be okay, but I mean, everything has its limits, you know. And eventually I do hit a wall where I'm like, okay, like I'm starting to get annoyed. And we talk about it and you say you've been working on it, but nothing's happening. You know, so I start to wanna shut down because I'm like, I don't really know what's happening here.

• 9:11Esther Perel?

  Right. That's part of why I wanted to invite you to be in the conversation. Because I had a sense that if it keeps repeating itself like this, then it starts to feel that we are incompatible because we're we're stuck. We keep circling back and gnawing at the same bone. And one piece is what actually is happening and how do we understand what goes on? And the second one is, how do we circle around it so that we don't come back to it? But we expand and we open up a different sexual expression between us

• 9:54Esther Perel?

  that doesn't trigger her. And when you say trigger, do you know what it goes back to?

• 10:02Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 10:03Esther Perel?

  You do?

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Mm hmm, mm hmm.

• 10:05Esther Perel?

  Okay. Is it different when she initiates?

• 10:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but it's so rare that I can't, like, I can't even tell you the last time that she initiated.

• 10:18Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  You know?

• 10:21Esther Perel?

  You know, sometimes I like to say that foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm.

• 10:29Esther Perel?

  And not a few minutes before the real thing, the supposed real thing. That's number one. So the first thing is, how do you start long before you start? You know, it's like, if you're gonna cook a beautiful meal, you start by deciding what you wanna cook. Then it's about where you're gonna get the ingredients, what you're gonna get. Then it's about preparing all the ingredients. Then it's about all the cooking. And then it's about setting the table. And then it's about eating. Do you know how many steps before people swallow their first bite? Sex is about, has something similar to it.

• 11:13Esther Perel?

  Especially when you are with someone who is struggling to find her own desire. And who, at this moment, needs to experience that sense of freedom in order to be comfortable in sex. So that it doesn't feel,

• 11:35Esther Perel?

  "I'm doing what you want. I'm responding to what you want from me. I'm so much dealing with what you want from me that I cannot ask myself, what do I want for myself?" So, it almost would say, you start with sweet messages. You, whatever the things that you do during the day that make the other person know that they're on your mind, that you're thinking of them. It's a way of cultivating the desire and the connection outside of when it's meant to happen.

• 12:12Esther Perel?

  And you may do all of that already. But I wanna repeat it cuz it's more important than we often think. And then when you wanna turn someone on, you actually don't need to go to their genitals, actually, but you go where there is absolutely no demand for a response, because the response will come when there is no demand. But the response will freeze when there is a sense that there is an expectation. And nothing has anything to do with you, and you've done nothing wrong, and this is not about you. This is about sexual healing that needs to take place for her. You understand? It's like with someone else, you may have none of this,

• 12:55Esther Perel?

  and you're not doing anything wrong. Just wanna make that really, really clear.

• 13:00Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, yeah, that's what I meant when I said, like, past relationships that were more casual, you know, there wasn't all this. So I'm not used to that.

• 13:09Esther Perel?

  That's right. So this one isn't casual. And that's part of why this is all, you know, this one is deep and meaningful and important for both of you. And that's why you wanna make sure that we take the correct exit from the beginning and not that you get lost, the two of you, in bad weeds.

• 13:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. I agree.

• 13:37Esther Perel?

  Part of the go slower. You know, I once did a session with 200 men, and then one of the guy asked me, what does woman want? You know, what should we know here? And my first answer, from having spoken so much with women, was slow down. Don't just approach when it's sex, when it's meant to go for penetration and intercourse. Just play. Play without demand.

• 14:08Esther Perel?

  Kiss, stroke, lick, shower, whatever you do, you know, that you enjoy, but without a demand.

• 14:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and and I think, you know, that kind of goes back to where like, a lot of the time when I do those things.

• 14:23Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 14:24Speaker 03

  And there isn't a demand, she still feels like there is.

• 14:30Esther Perel?

  You have to tell her, today we play and there is no demand. At best, you jerk off yourself or she'll play with you, but really state it. I just wanna touch you, I wanna kiss you, I wanna hold you, I wanna lick you, but no vulva. Just my, your neck, your ears, your hand, stay away from the genitals. And make it clear, we're having a different kind of sex today. We're going to have an erotic experience, it doesn't have to be the act of sex. And even if she wants to, you say, no, you can't.

• 15:12Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 15:13Esther Perel?

  Afterwards, if she really wants to, then do whatever you want, but just, it's about trust. It's about making it last that long till she trusts you. That you really won't make her do anything she doesn't wanna do. Which she knows isn't what you mean. She trusts you, she loves you, she knows you're a good guy, but this is what trigger means.

• 15:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:42Esther Perel?

  And it's an honor to be the person who's gonna be there to heal with her.

• 15:49Speaker 03

  A challenge, that's for sure.

• 15:56Esther Perel?

  A challenging honor.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  A challenging honor, yeah, you took the words out of my mouth.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  You said what I thought.

• 16:07Esther Perel?

  And the reason I asked you if it's different when she initiates is because sometimes the experience for some women is that in the initiating, I know I'm doing what I want.

• 16:22Speaker 03

  Well, yeah, when she initiates, then it's basically straight to sex.

• 16:27Esther Perel?

  Slow it down too. If you can, slow it down too. Because it's about challenging the frames of mind. I know you get hard, you get turned on, you get aroused, you get excited, you wanna, you know, that's there. But I think it needs new input. It's not what a guy expects from me. It's not what every guy wants. It's not what every woman needs to do. It's not the way I can keep him. It's not the way I will prevent him from leaving. It's not, it's all of those

• 17:04Esther Perel?

  thoughts roaming and capturing a person's freedom and imagination.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  We've, we've been trying to redefine the lines of communication around intimacy.

• 17:19Speaker 03

  I, well, last night, I mean, I told her, you know, like, I'm not gonna ask if you wanna have sex anymore. If you wanna have sex, you just, you know, it's up to you. So we're trying that for a while and we'll see.

• 17:37Esther Perel?

  But when you say we're not gonna have sex, where does sex start for you?

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Well, not, not that we're not gonna have sex, that I'm not gonna bring it up.

• 17:46Esther Perel?

  Right. And sex starts where? Meaning I'm not gonna pressure you, I'm not gonna push you, I'm not gonna be the one to constantly think about it, ask for it. And what is it, what is the it? Where does it start?

• 18:00Speaker 03

  Well, I guess with foreplay.

• 18:04Esther Perel?

  Keep going. Do you just ask to be held? Do you ask to be kissed? Do you ask to be, to have her hand in your hair? I mean, are there things that are not the sex demand? But they are physical. They are even sensual. They are even erotic, energetic. But they don't necessarily say, we're going to do sex.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Uh huh, uh huh.

• 18:32Esther Perel?

  Is that, where does that feature?

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Um, I think that I definitely do those things, you know, like I'll massage her or something like that. Maybe I'll like rub her feet or something. But, but usually like if I do those things, I don't transition into sex from there. Sometimes, sometimes I will, but, but I find that I get a similar reaction either way.

• 19:00Esther Perel?

  And if you ask for something? Can you ask, that is not what you call sex? Can you ask for physical expressions?

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, usually it, like, there isn't an issue with that. I think it just depends on like where I'm touching, you know?

• 19:19Esther Perel?

  Can you imagine that she has a whole body? And you don't have to go for the genitals or the boobs? Unless she takes your hand and brings it there. But the body is the biggest sexual organ, the skin, followed by the mind.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, I will try not going, not touching the very erotic areas at all unless she, you know, takes it there and we'll see.

• 19:51Esther Perel?

  Or take her hand and just tell her, you take my hand where you want it to go.

• 20:03Esther Perel?

  And say it. What I called it with her is I said, you be the driver of the driver. Because you're working hard at trying to guess what does she like, what does she want, what is okay, what is not okay. And it it's tough.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, it's exhausting.

• 20:19Esther Perel?

  And it makes you doubt yourself and you feel like you're losing your confidence and the natural feeling of it all. And so just say, here's here's my hand. You take it anywhere you want it to be. It could be on her face, it could be on her neck, on her shoulder. It will feel nice because you will feel like she's in it with you. It won't be about what it is that you're doing. It's the fact that it's being done together. Rather than you're hoping that you're not having a mishap, that you're not walking a thin line of where is it wrong and where's the mistake and where is she gonna shut down.

• 20:59Esther Perel?

  So the pleasure will come from staying connected at first, not from the big production. Shall we check that with her? See if that's something?

• 21:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:11Esther Perel?

  Thank you.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  And I'll be right back. I'm gonna go get it.

• 21:13Esther Perel?

  Okay.

• 21:18Esther Perel?

  We have to take a brief break. So stay with us and let's see where this goes.

• 21:30Speaker 02

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• 23:02Esther Perel?

  We just started a new year, and that often comes along with starting new things, including listening to new podcasts. So if you're new here, or you haven't been with me for a while, welcome back to my office. I'm excited to be featured in Apple Podcasts' New Beginnings campaign. And for the whole month of January, I'm offering you 20% off the annual and monthly subscriptions on Apple Podcasts. By joining my subscription on Apple Podcasts, you'll get an ad-free version of each session, and you will have access to my new Apple channel. So let me tell you about that, because here we are, eight years later, with a huge, robust archive of episodes.

• 23:47Esther Perel?

  So one channel is the classics, one channel are the clinical conversations, one is for the special guests that I have hosted, and one is for all of us who were curious about the long-term update about the couples that we have seen. What happened to them? Two, three years later, what happened to these people? So I've organized it thematically, I've organized it so it's less unwieldy, so that when you have a concern, you can go straight to what interests you. So things are gonna look better and a little different. So join me on my office hours on Apple Podcasts subscription for a 20% off by clicking the

• 24:30Esther Perel?

  subscribe button on the Where Should We Begin? show page. See you there, and thank you.

• 24:39Esther Perel?

  Hi.

• 24:39Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 24:41Esther Perel?

  How have you been since we spoke?

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Good.

• 24:45Esther Perel?

  I was asking him what you had brought from our conversation so that I could bridge and what stood out for you, kind of what stayed.

• 24:55Speaker 03

  I think the biggest thing that really stuck with me was like that it's not so much that we're like incompatible more than I need the space to be able to, I don't know, like share my desire and that maybe like changing the way that we initiate. Driving the driver really stuck out to me. Like that's the one thing that really has stuck in my head, like driving the driver.

• 25:27Esther Perel?

  Did you try it?

• 25:29Speaker 03

  No.

• 25:30Esther Perel?

  Ah.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Mm-mm.

• 25:33Esther Perel?

  How come?

• 25:34Speaker 03

  Um, I think I just, I'm scared.

• 25:40Esther Perel?

  To?

• 25:41Speaker 03

  To try it. I want it to work and I want it to be something that's like successful for us. So I'm scared that it's gonna fail.

• 25:50Esther Perel?

  Tell me something, do you drive a bicycle?

• 25:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know.

• 25:54Esther Perel?

  Do you think that when you learn to bicycle, you never fell off?

• 25:58Speaker 03

  No, I definitely did. Yeah, I definitely fell.

• 26:01Esther Perel?

  And did you become a good bicycle driver?

• 26:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:05Esther Perel?

  Alright, so success is not something that happens in the first try. You fell, you got your bearings, you learn to do slower, faster, to stay upright and you don't think about any of this over the many, many years that you've been riding a bike. But it's gonna be the same. To find a groove sexually is not something that you do once and you and it works or it doesn't work. That's not the way it works sexually. It's a different story.

• 26:41Esther Perel?

  But it demands a lot of good communication between the two of you. More than anything else. It's, and that's part of why I thought, mm, I'd love to meet him and have him in the conversation because I could see how it becomes a story of we are incompatible when that's not what this is about.

• 27:03Esther Perel?

  And it's not about, I like droplets and he pours a bucket. It's about really communicating with him what feels good and taking the initiative of telling him, you're not going to offend each other. You're actually going to feel that you're bold and brazen and you're investing into this dialogue. That's called a sexual communication. And you may not know instantly what's the way to drive the driver. And you may think it's this, but then afterwards you realize it's that. But one thing you know is that driving the driver is a way of feeling that you are not

• 27:48Esther Perel?

  pushed, coerced, and controlled, but that you experience your own taking charge, your own freedom, your own desire, your own autonomy. And that that's something that he can join you in. That's not something that you're doing against him. Because there's nothing more exciting than to see someone who's into it. Yeah. Is that a fair statement? Yes. I don't really know, like, where to go from here. From here. All right.

• 28:29Esther Perel?

  So one thing I said was foreplay is not the thing you do just five minutes before the real deal. To me, foreplay starts at the end of the previous orgasm. It's the way that you cultivate an erotic energy that lingers so that you don't have to get someone into it, you don't have to get them in the mood, you don't have to turn them on.

• 28:59Esther Perel?

  There's an energy that is present. And the most important thing to start for both of you is to not have pressure. For you not to feel like there's an expectation that you're either gonna meet and dissociate or not meet, and then he's gonna be frustrated and rejected. So that's the dance you're trying to step out of. So no stimulation through genital touching, or thigh, or boobs, or breasts, because that's all very explicit. It says, "I want sex, we're going to have sex." And there's nothing wrong with this.

• 29:42Esther Perel?

  It's just that when you are in the presence of even the most loving man, and he tells you, "I want sex," that doesn't invite you in a good space. Yeah. So it's, "I love being next to you, I'm with you, this feels nice, I wanna touch you, I wanna kiss you, I wanna hold you." Many, many times, it will stop right there. And that's when you will learn to trust, that you don't have to subject yourself. And that's when you have a much better chance of coming to him, because he's not after you. You know, otherwise, it becomes the, "I'm counting days while you're counting days,

• 30:25Esther Perel?

  and I'm looking at you, looking at me, to tell you that I know what you're thinking, even though you're not saying it." And it becomes this whole thing. Yeah, yeah. You know what I'm saying?

• 30:38Esther Perel?

  I'm asking him to.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  No, I do, yeah.

• 30:42Esther Perel?

  Yeah? Does she know that I'm thinking that I'm, that I know that she's not thinking that, you know, "He wants it, that's on his mind, it's not on her mind." When will it ever be on her mind? It's never on her mind. "I'm tired of this, I've never been like this, this is not the way I've known my relationships to be, oh, I better do something because he's getting upset." And it becomes this whole surveillance system. That's not intimacy. In which each of you is looking at what is the threshold of the other. So you start by asking him things that feel good. That's it. If he touches you and it doesn't feel right, take his hand and put it where you like it. Even if it doesn't move.

• 31:26Esther Perel?

  If you just put it here and that's where you want it to be, he'll stay there for a while. If you wanna move it from your chest and bring it to your neck, he'll stay there for a while.

• 31:37Esther Perel?

  Because he will appreciate. You're there with him. It'll slow it down. You may have less intercourse for a while, but you will, you'll shift this. You wanna be able to keep your eyes open and just be in front of him and synchronize your breathing together a little bit. And know that there is no demand, no coercion, no control. We, so a couple of weeks ago, we had tried, um, like sensate touching. Where we would touch each other. Um, and sex was like completely off the table for the time that we were doing the exercises.

• 32:20Esther Perel?

  During that time, like it was working for me. Like I felt myself opening up more. And like being able to let go. But it didn't last very long. Meaning? Um, we just kept getting kind of like stuck in this, the same cycle. Like it's not, it's taking a little bit too long for you to initiate sex. So I'm gonna initiate and I'm not really responding to that and it's like the same. Right.

• 32:54Esther Perel?

  This is a question to you, sir, because it's going to be a bit frustrating. But you're gonna get your girlfriend to be present with you. And then it will be an offer that you can't refuse.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Well.

• 33:09Esther Perel?

  That's what, that's the challenge, right?

• 33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to be more patient now, so.

• 33:17Esther Perel?

  And when she's present, if you can tell her what it feels like for you to have her there with you, even if it's just sitting next to each other or naked face to face and do nothing. You know, sex isn't just intercourse. It's a broad landscape. And people can do sex and feel nothing. And people can do very little and feel highly erotic. And you'll encourage him to jerk off if he wants that, if he needs the release, if he enjoys the release. You'll do it sometimes if you feel like it

• 33:57Esther Perel?

  because it's a nice, fun thing to receive without feeling I'm obliged. But you want to be more demanding rather than just avoiding. Demanding in the good sense of the word.

• 34:14Esther Perel?

  I guess that's something I'll have to practice because I am not used to it. You can write him a note. You can put it on the fridge. Tonight for tomorrow, little request. You can play with this. Don't make this very serious. Anything on the menu? Anything I can serve you? Would you like any special room service? I mean, play with this.

• 34:39Esther Perel?

  Open yourself to the discoveries that will come along. There's a whole world to talk about. And it has less to do with what you do and more with what you're dreaming of, what you're imagining, what you're thinking about. When we were doing the exercises, I found myself fantasizing about it and about him.

• 35:02Esther Perel?

  Do you know that?

• 35:03Speaker 03

  Well, that's a conversation we had just last night. I asked the question, "Do you ever get turned on when we're together?" You know, and she says, "Yes." And I said, "Well, when's the last time?" And she says, "A couple of weeks ago." And I said, "Well, I didn't know anything about this. Why didn't you act on it, you know, communicate it?" And she said, "I don't know."

• 35:29Esther Perel?

  So start asking her, tell me what you think. Tell me what it feels like. Track it. In a nice, gentle way, ask each other. You know, some people find doing sex much easier than talking about it. And most people have a much easier time talking about sex with everybody but the person that they're having sex with. When you say you didn't tell me, ask her, what was it? Do you know?

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, we talked about it, yeah.

• 36:01Esther Perel?

  And what was it like for you to hear it?

• 36:04Speaker 03

  I mean,

• 36:07Speaker 03

  I don't know, I guess my immediate thought was just, you know, like, I wish I would have, I wish I knew.

• 36:12Esther Perel?

  Uh huh, uh huh. So, that's not the end of the story. From there, I think the sensitive focus is great. Because it gives you a zone where you know it's not gonna go, so you get to explore in everything else. And turned on, what she described was, my mind was turned on.

• 36:35Esther Perel?

  My imaginative space got lit up. It doesn't mean just I got lubricated, I got wet, I got all excited physically. For her, it will start up in the head and then it will travel down. If these lips open, so will the ones between her legs. So the kissing will be a lot more of a turn on than any of the target are touching. Does that feel to you part of the honor or part of the challenge?

• 37:09Speaker 03

  The foreplay, you mean?

• 37:10Esther Perel?

  Yeah, everything I just described now.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I enjoy foreplay. I just, you know, am used to this feeling of, anytime I try to initiate foreplay, it's just, she automatically feels pressure, so it's, you know, I do it anyway. But I always feel like, you know, she's not gonna be into it because she automatically is gonna just go to that place.

• 37:35Esther Perel?

  You're gonna tell her upfront.

• 37:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 37:37Esther Perel?

  You will tell her upfront, this is for us to play. No pressure, no demand after that. Trust me. And even if you want to, I won't let you. Because if you don't let her, she will want more.

• 37:54Esther Perel?

  When I describe it, do you feel the playfulness in it? Or does it, or do you get more in touch with your frustration?

• 38:02Speaker 03

  No, I mean, I definitely understand where you're coming from. And I'm definitely open to more foreplay. And it's to be determined, you know, what the result will be and how long it'll take for these things to work. Because so far, it's been, it's been a challenge. But yeah, I mean, I, I want for that to work, you know, for it to be easy.

• 38:38Esther Perel?

  When you say it work, you mean what? What is work in sex for you?

• 38:44Speaker 03

  Well, what I mean is, you know, I want for us to just be able to just coexist intimately and, and we touch and kiss and maybe one thing leads to another sometimes, you know what I mean? And to me, that's normal. Um, but I just feel like as of late, that that hasn't been happening. There hasn't really been any leeway for that. So, I mean, we'll see, you know? I'm gonna do what you said with communicating. This isn't about sex. And we'll see, I mean, it's, it's every day is, it's one day at a time, you know?

• 39:24Esther Perel?

  See, the thing is, it actually is sex. But sex isn't just something you do. In my mind, sex is a place where you go. Inside yourself and with another. Our deepest emotional needs are expressed in the physicality of sex.

• 39:47Esther Perel?

  And that's the conversation. It's like, where do you go? What does it mean for you? Where does it take you? What part of you gets expressed there? And that's a different way of talking about sex and about turn-ons and about arousal. And it will open a whole new door for both of you.

• 40:14Esther Perel?

  We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

• 40:29Speaker 04

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• 40:40Speaker 04

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• 40:44Speaker 06

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• 40:47Speaker 05

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• 40:54Speaker 04

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• 41:30Speaker 07

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• 41:47Esther Perel?

  People can do the act sex, and nothing happens to them. And what you want is something to happen to both of you and between the two of you. Don't wait because you're looking for the right moment, when I'm comfortable, when he's OK with... The more he will know that you are engaged in this with him, the better it will be for him. Otherwise, it feels lonely. I'm the only one who cares. You could have a little notebook in which you write your thoughts, your thoughts, your experiences. And the notebook stays on the kitchen table, and you get to read it. It's about a different way of sharing with each other.

• 42:32Esther Perel?

  And I was thinking about that. And I have this fantasy in mind.

• 42:37Esther Perel?

  Et cetera, et cetera.

• 42:39Speaker 05

  I mean, for me, like, that's for, that's like what I

• 42:45Speaker 05

  want our sex to be like, is like not the physical acts of or like the final goal is like to have penetrative sex, like I want it to be an experience, like for me to be able to fantasize about it and then feel, like, carry that energy through.

• 43:03Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:04Speaker 05

  Um.

• 43:05Esther Perel?

  But you have never told any of that to him. He knows very little about your erotic self. And probably vice versa. You know, it's one thing to talk about what we do in sex, it's another thing to talk about what we're thinking about while we're doing it. What was it like when you told him what you were thinking and fantasizing about, just the actual sharing of that for you, what was that like?

• 43:32Speaker 05

  Really vulnerable.

• 43:33Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:34Speaker 05

  Uh, but it was like in the context of a heavier conversation, so it wasn't like this is what I'm thinking about and like stoking it for myself is more like I'm explaining.

• 43:46Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 43:47Speaker 05

  Or like defending myself more than.

• 43:51Esther Perel?

  And now?

• 43:53Speaker 03

  And I, when I asked the question, I didn't mean for it to be something where you had to go on the defensive eye. I honestly wanted to know, I mean, you know, are you ever turned on when we're together? You know what I mean? It's not, it wasn't like the argumentative stance that I was trying to take.

• 44:12Esther Perel?

  Were you surprised with the answer?

• 44:14Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, I don't know, to be honest. The mental aspect of me knows there's some level of attraction because we've had sex many times and we've been in a relationship for almost four years. But when it feels like you're constantly being held at arm's length, it can make you feel like, well, maybe, you know, we need to just face, face the fact that you, you're not attracted to me. And maybe that's just something that we, neither of us wants to face.

• 44:53Esther Perel?

  I think he needs to hear something from you, so that he doesn't go off in that kind of thinking.

• 45:04Speaker 05

  That's definitely something that I've.

• 45:07Esther Perel?

  Been thinking about, and I'm so like, I think about everything. Yeah, I, but I'm saying, right now, don't go off in your thinking.

• 45:19Esther Perel?

  I mean, like, I, I definitely desire you, there's desire there. And it, mostly, like, when you're doing your own thing.

• 45:30Speaker 03

  And you're very serious, or like, playing video games, and like, you're in your own world. Like, that really gets to me. And like, I love you and I, I want, I want you, and I want this with us, like, I want that.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  Well, I love you too, babe. Like, I find you very attractive. I think you're a very handsome man.

• 45:57Esther Perel?

  And I like looking at you, I like looking at your face, I like looking at your body, like. Do you tell him that often, or not enough? Not enough, I don't think. It's very rare. Hmm, you've got, you have homework. Did it land on you?

• 46:17Speaker 03

  It did. Yeah, I mean, you know, it, it, it's like I know these things.

• 46:26Esther Perel?

  But I love hearing it.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Sometimes, yeah, it can, you can forget.

• 46:31Esther Perel?

  Yeah.

• 46:34Esther Perel?

  And this is part of sexual communication. If you need to hear it, you say, tell it to me again, I love hearing it. Shower me with that. If he needs reassurance, or if he needs affirmation, you tell him again. People at eighty still wanna hear that. I mean, this is not something you said on the first week and then you're done. This is juice, nectar. And especially, if there is the challenge that you have currently, you need it even more. Part of why people begin to have sexual challenges, one of the many reasons. Is that all of this stuff disappears, and they just think that they can roll over and start fucking.

• 47:20Esther Perel?

  So, all of those exchanges. All of those poetic liberties make a huge difference. It feels good to say it, it feels good to hear it.

• 47:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, I can definitely do that more.

• 47:40Esther Perel?

  Does he do it to you?

• 47:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, all the time.

• 47:45Esther Perel?

  And are you able to receive it without pressure, as pleasure?

• 47:51Speaker 05

  Sometimes, I don't always receive it, like, just a statement. And more of like, pressure.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  Uh, I I just feel like, to a degree, everything I do, it's like, we were talking about it and, I don't know, a part of me has thought that like, the best thing for me to do is nothing, but then that doesn't accomplish anything. Nothing never accomplishes anything, so.

• 48:18Esther Perel?

  Listen, it's not you.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  That puts me in a box.

• 48:21Esther Perel?

  It does, it does, and that's why this is less about sex and more about sexual trauma. And healing, so that sex can reemerge freely and joyfully. It's not you.

• 48:38Esther Perel?

  And you need to tell him that.

• 48:41Speaker 05

  I have.

• 48:43Esther Perel?

  No, but not once, not once, you know.

• 48:49Esther Perel?

  He loves you, he wants you, it's everything you would hope for. And this is not about doing wrong things, or everything I do goes off track. And when he says something beautiful and it pressures you, just tell him, tell me again. And then try to breathe through it and to make the space so it can actually enter and you can hold it.

• 49:16Esther Perel?

  Or have, take his hands, put them on your heart, and just tell him to say it again, and it's all he needs to do. I wanna hear it again, it didn't really register well, and give yourself the gift.

• 49:31Speaker 05

  Yeah. I guess I've just been so like, I don't know how to receive pleasure. Um, my comfort zone is like.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Me initiating it. And that's where I I can let go. And allow myself to feel good, because I feel good and I feel powerful. And receiving is hard.

• 50:01Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm.

• 50:04Esther Perel?

  Which is why.

• 50:07Esther Perel?

  I want you to think small.

• 50:11Esther Perel?

  Even if it's just his hand in your hair, what would be if he was sitting next to you now and you took his hand, where would you put it?

• 50:19Speaker 03

  Either in my hand too, or on my back.

• 50:22Esther Perel?

  Okay. Start with that.

• 50:26Esther Perel?

  And then, if you wanna move it, move it. And then tell him. How it feels like. So he knows.

• 50:36Esther Perel?

  This doesn't mean you're gonna do this for seven years, you know?

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:41Esther Perel?

  Just.

• 50:43Esther Perel?

  I was trying to reassure you. But take his hand.

• 50:50Esther Perel?

  And place it somewhere where you want him to give and you can receive.

• 50:59Esther Perel?

  Is this a good place to stop? It's just an arbitrary spot, but. Maybe too.

• 51:07Speaker 03

  Gotta wrap up somewhere, huh?

• 51:09Esther Perel?

  Mm hmm, yeah.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:11Esther Perel?

  But does it give you a place to start?

• 51:14Speaker 03

  I would say yes. I think so.

• 51:20Esther Perel?

  So have a little notebook. Our erotic meanderings, our erotic life or something, name it, give it the name you want. Doesn't have to be a serious name. And write in it to each other. Sometimes it's easier to write than to speak.

• 51:40Esther Perel?

  Then you can discuss it later if you want, but just to have a place where you, I thought of, I saw this, I imagined that. I would love that. On and on like this.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. I would like that.

• 51:56Esther Perel?

  And you?

• 51:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm open to it.

• 52:04Esther Perel?

  Okay. I'll be in touch.

• 52:15Speaker 07

  This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther that could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to [email protected].

• 52:38Speaker 07

  Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristin Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin? Are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

• 53:20Speaker 02

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• 54:02Speaker 04

  Stonefire Knon is baked in blazing high heat to give you buttery, charred flatbread for any meal.

• 54:07Speaker 05

  I love it with tzatziki and barbecue chicken.

• 54:10Speaker 06

  Stonefire Knon is great when you're lost in the woods with your leg in a bear trap.

• 54:14Speaker 04

  I love making non-grilled cheese. Is that guy OK?

• 54:17Speaker 06

  I'm in shock by that buttermilk taste.

• 54:20Speaker 05

  Works great for pizza. Can we get him some help?

• 54:23Speaker 06

  You can share Stonefire Knon with your friends, like this friendly Wolverine.

• 54:27Speaker 04

  Doesn't sound friendly. From our tradition to yours, Stonefire, together we Knon.