#1387 Hany Rashwan | Donald Trump Will Convince Countries To Buy Bitcoin?!

Hany Rashwan is the Founder & CEO of 21Shares, they have over $7 billion in assets and they are all focused on crypto. In this conversation, we talk about everything they have learned, ETFs, institutional vs retail, what is going on around the world in terms of regulation, politics, and what the United States can learn about those regions to decide what comes next for us. ======================= Wondering where to go for financial advice? Domain Money makes financial planning simple. No hidden fees and no sales pitches - you get a personalized roadmap to your goals, from dream vacations to retirement. Flat-fee advisors create a plan tailored to you, with zero pressure to invest. Don’t be like most people who’ve never had a real conversation about their financial plan. Book a free strategy session today at ⁠⁠https://www.domainmoney.com/pomp⁠⁠ While I'm not a Domain Money client and they are paying me, I've seen first hand the value of their service through the free plan they did for one of my brothers. Yes, I might have an interest in promoting Domain Money, so just like any major financial decision, it's important you understand what the service is and if it's right for you so make sure to see important disclaimer at ⁠⁠https://www.domainmoney.com/t/legal⁠⁠ ======================= CrossFi is the Apple Pay for Crypto. For the first time in history, anyone with a web 3 wallet like Metamask can spend crypto through a physical or virtual visa cards anywhere in the world where Visa is accepted. Be one of the first to get your hands on a CrossFi card and a prize pool of $3 Million Dollars by joining and participating in their testnet today: ⁠⁠https://xfi.foundation/users⁠⁠ ======================= BetOnline.ag is a proud sponsor of the the Pomp Podcast. Use crypto to bet on sports, play poker and enjoy casino games at BetOnline. Visit ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://promotions.betonline.ag/pomp⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and use promo code POMP100 to receive a 100% matching bonus on any crypto deposit. BetOnline boasts no crypto transaction fees, and processing is anonymous, instantaneous and secure. ======================= Pomp writes a daily letter to over 265,000+ investors about business, technology, and finance. He breaks down complex topics into easy-to-understand language while sharing opinions on various aspects of each industry. You can subscribe at https://pomp.substack.com/ ======================= View 10k+ open startup jobs: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://dreamstartupjob.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Enroll in my Crypto Academy: https://www.thecryptoacademy.io/

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone? This is Anthony Pompliano. Many of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, which is my effort to find the most interesting people in the world and sit with them for hours while I ask questions in an effort to learn. So it would mean the world to me if you would subscribe to the show on your favorite audio platform, watch episodes on YouTube, and tell your friends and family about the podcast. My goal is to help millions learn from the world's most interesting people. So let's get into today's episode. What's up guys? Bang bang. Today we have a special treat. We've got Hany Rashwan. He is the founder and CEO of 21Shares. They got over $7 billion in assets and they're all focused on crypto. These guys have gone all around the world in both the public markets

• 0:46Anthony Pompliano?

  and in the private markets. They're helping investors from institutions down to retail, figure out how to get allocated to crypto. They've got tons of data, they've got tons of assets, and they've got tons of insights. This conversation breaks down everything that they've learned, what's going on around the world in terms of regulation, politics, and what the United States can learn about those regions so that we can see around the corner and understand what comes next for us. Here is my conversation with Hani.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs Pomp Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Pomp Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by Pomp or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 1:36Anthony Pompliano?

  Today's episode is brought to you by Domain Money. I get asked all the time, "Pomp, where should I go for financial advice?" Now, as you all know, I can't personally give financial advice, but I now know people who can. Domain Money makes financial planning straightforward and accessible. They tailor plans to your personal priorities and goals, whether you want to buy a big house, whether you want to fund college, or you want to take that dream vacation. Now, I'm not a Domain Money client, and they are paying me for this ad, as you know. And I've seen firsthand, though, the value of their service through a free plan they did for one of my brothers, him- And I got on with one of their financial advisors and they walked us through the whole process. It was awesome. Domain Money offers unbiased, flat fee advice with no minimums

• 2:19Anthony Pompliano?

  and zero misaligned incentives. They're not managing your assets or selling you products. It's pure, practical and tactical financial guidance. Need more advice? They also pay by the hour options for plan updates or coaching sessions. Don't be like most people who have never had a real conversation about their financial plan. Trust Domain Money to help you build a clear roadmap for your future. It's hands down the smartest move you can make for your money. Book a free strategy session with Domain Money at domainmoney.com/pomp. Again, domainmoney.com/pomp. And yes, I might have an interest in promoting domain. So just like any major financial decision, it's important you understand what the service is and if it's

• 3:04Anthony Pompliano?

  right for you. So make sure to see the important disclaimer at dmnmny.co/x. How about that? Go check it out today. Go to domainmoney.com/pomp. Today's episode is brought to you by CrossFi. CrossFi is the Apple Pay for crypto. For the first time in history, anyone with a Web3 wallet like MetaMask can spend crypto through a physical or virtual Visa card anywhere in the world where Visa is accepted. No more exchanges or middlemen. Just link your wallet, get your card and start spending today. CrossFi card transactions have already been successfully processed in New York, Los Angeles, London, Dubai, China, Japan, and over 20 other countries. Be one of the first to get your hands on a CrossFi card

• 3:48Anthony Pompliano?

  and a prize pool of up to $3 million by joining and participating in their testnet today. You can go to xfi.foundationusers. Again, that's xfi.foundationusers. Go check it out today.

• 4:04Anthony Pompliano?

  This episode is brought to you by BetOnline. Do you like making a profit from sports betting? Well, set yourself up to take home the most profit possible using crypto to fund your sports betting, casino and poker account at betonline.ag. You can avoid costly transaction fees, get your payouts lightning fast, and do it all securely and anonymously with the highest deposit and withdrawal limits in the industry. If you want to get in on the action, do it the smart way with crypto at betonline.ag. Head to the website, sign up with promo code POMP100 to get 100% bonus on your crypto deposit today. If you go and you deposit, they'll give you 100% bonus if you use promo code POMP100. BetOnline, the game starts here. BetOnline.ag, go check them out today.

• 4:52Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, guys. Bang, bang. Honey, I thought a great place to start this conversation is you all have some of the leading ETFs. You have a Bitcoin one, you've got an Ether one. Talk a little bit as to just what you all have seen in the market. It seems like people are buying Bitcoin ETFs in particular, hand over fist. They just keep throwing more and more money into the market. What are you guys actually seeing happen on the ground?

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Bitcoin is the

• 5:17Speaker 02

  is the most widely known. It is almost synonymous with crypto at this point. The Bitcoin market cap is what 1.1 billion or so? So it represents a majority of the overall total crypto market cap. It's something that most people have heard of, understand at some level. Smart contracts, Ethereum, Solana, Avalanche, Polygon, Cardano, et cetera, are still not a very known entity to most people. And so maybe they've heard of Ethereum because it's been getting more and more press, but I doubt that most people today can even describe Ethereum rather well. And so

• 6:01Speaker 02

  The amount of education that is required to explain and to understand what Ethereum is far exceeds what Bitcoin is, and simplicity is a very, very powerful thing. And so for the time being, a lot of people are excited about blockchain. A lot of people are excited about crypto as innovative pieces of technology. In addition to that, you have a lot of people worried about politics, their own territories, fiscal and monetary policies, including here in the U.S. I mean, we're all worried about the debt and we don't have very clear answers from either side of the aisle. And so Bitcoin has been absolutely popular and getting even more so.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  But what we find is that typically speaking, people enter with Bitcoin. They learn a little bit more about Ethereum and the blockchain, then they get into the rabbit hole. And at 21 shares, I think we have close now to 50 ETPs and ETFs around the world in over a dozen countries. And so at some point, you end up with the more esoteric niche assets and a greater understanding of them. But oftentimes, the gateway into this world is Bitcoin, which is part of why you see such a huge amount of demand for it. The other thing is that part of the cycle that we're in, we're not exactly back to the bull market, although we've clearly escaped the bear.

• 7:26Speaker 02

  Bitcoin starts to build up along with the halving and the market cycle between the bear and the bull market. It's very clear why Bitcoin right now is incredibly popular, but I would expect the alts to start picking up at some point next year.

• 7:41Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, why is the Ether ETFs not nearly as popular as the Bitcoin ETFs? Is it just all brand, as you're mentioning, and Bitcoin kind of dominates? Or are there other things that you think are maybe deterring or just having lack of interest for the Ether ETFs in comparison?

• 7:59Speaker 02

  So there are two kinds of investors, right? There are the institutional investors who need to basically have this approved. And it took them a really, really long time to approve Bitcoin. And Ethereum is going to take a similarly long time to get through their compliance and risk committees and what have you. And then on the retail side, it's about brand. Again, go out in the streets and ask anyone about Bitcoin and ask anyone about Ethereum and tell me how well they explain Bitcoin and how well they explain Ethereum. And more often than not, I think they more or less get Bitcoin. But with Ethereum, it's just a little bit more complex and earlier in its cycle.

• 8:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, in the United States, staking with the Ether ETFs is not allowed in terms of, I don't think the issuers can stake the Ether. And also, even if there was staking rewards, they can't pass it back to the kind of ETF shareholder. Talk a little bit as to, you know, you guys operate across the globe. There are certain jurisdictions where you can give that staking reward. How much does that drive people allocating to like an Ether ETP versus, you know, if they're not allowed to actually participate in that?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  That's an excellent question. And as you can imagine, and we get this a few times, I think the answer will surprise you. So first of all, our ambition is to include staking in our Ethereum ETFs in America as soon as possible. We are working diligently and aggressively with the regulator, both in the US and elsewhere, where we don't have staking, to add staking. We think it's an important feature to have. We want to pass on the rewards to the end clients. And it's something that we'll continue pushing for. Like I said, it's our vision and ambition. That said, if we just go back to what we were just talking about, there are a couple of different kinds of investors.

• 9:57Speaker 02

  On the institutional investor side, something that may surprise you is that sometimes...

• 10:04Speaker 02

  More often than you would assume or think, they can't get Ethereum with staking past their committees for approval. And so in Europe, for example, where we're the largest crypto ETF issuer on that continent, we have not one, but two Ethereum ETFs. One stakes, one does not stake. And the one that doesn't stake still has nine figures worth of AUM in it. And it's mostly composed of either people who are gravitate towards the lowest fees possible without wanting staking on top of it.

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Or more often than not, institutional investors who cannot invest in Ethereum if it stakes. Because the way that they would perceive it is that staking is an additional risk factor that is not 100% guaranteed. And therefore, for whatever reason, their IC, their investment committee, or their other risk and compliance committees have not approved yet of investing in a staking or stakeable exchange traded product. And so it will take a while and we will get it passed. And we've seen this a lot in other geographies as well. Sometimes we start without staking and add staking later because the regulator just

• 11:25Speaker 02

  needs a little bit more time to get educated, get caught up and feel more comfortable approving it. But on the other hand, and for the foreseeable future, I really do think that there is going to be a large amount of demand for a non-staking ultra-conservative Ethereum, Cardano, Solana, Avalanche, et cetera, ETPs.

• 11:52Anthony Pompliano?

  When those assets get approved, do you see the crypto-native kind of retail investor being the ones allocating to it? Or do you think that institutions say, I want diversification? Or are they going to treat this kind of like, you know, I'm going to do some stock picking? I'm going to try to actually pick who the winners are going to be here?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  It's absolutely the fire.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  The embers, the root, the foundations of the fire are absolutely retail investors. We've talked about this a lot. Retail investors are unique with crypto in that most new asset classes have been started and pushed by more institutional types who have reaped most of the rewards. And in crypto, it's the exact opposite. And that still holds true today. Retail is absolutely the base. The Bitcoin ETFs and the Ethereum ETFs in America. We've seen some pension funds and them teacher and firefighter unions allocate money to it. And it's so exciting. And we're speaking to more and more every day and we hope to get more and more. But the base is still quite retail heavy.

• 12:58Speaker 02

  Now, on the institutional side, just to answer your question. More long-term focused, long holders of this asset typically take a while to get this passed the committees and approved. We are still working through several processes with larger institutional investors for the Bitcoin ETF, which in America we listed in January. Now, another kind of institutional investor, the more activist, active, sorry. Active trading hedge funds and the discretionary funds and things like that, they're stock picking. Or maybe they're momentum trading, or maybe they're doing a number of other things.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  You sometimes see market makers or hedge funds do the basis trade, for example. And all of these kinds of financial engineering or momentum trading or stock picking, as you called it, that we are seeing a lot with the ETFs, which are highly liquid. Their securities, they're part and parcel of what they are familiar with and what they can trade in. But by and large, even though a lot of more traditional institutional pension funds, insurance companies, some have started dipping their toes in the water, no one is fully in yet.

• 14:20Anthony Pompliano?

  Now, we mentioned the staking earlier and retail being the ones buying a lot of this stuff. How important is cash flow and yield and dividends and the staking rewards to these retail investors? And the reason why I ask that question is I think a lot of people almost assume, well, aren't the retail investors just like the GameStop investors? This is all speculation. This is all just like, can it go up 20x or I'm not interested? So the fact that some of the reasons why people are buying these may actually go counterintuitive to the pure like speculator mindset.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  Not in our experience. In my personal experience, our AUM and our customers are the stickiest possible. You'd be surprised. Things break, hacks happen. People don't sell. People have a very long-term perspective on this. And there's a lot of research on this, right? The amount of Bitcoin that has moved, the amount of Bitcoin that has remained, etc. It baffles people. It's a rather high percent. With respect to cash flow and dividends and things like that, that's actually not how staking usually works in an exchange-traded product. Because the way it usually works is that it's not a dividend that I actually

• 15:36Speaker 02

  give to you in cash. It's almost like it's a dividend in kind that adds to the amount of Ethereum per share that a share is worth. And it's actually really difficult to do cash dispersments because it's so inconsistent. Like, the staking fee feels like this annualized rate, but it's not, right? Depending on the blockchain, you will get some reward that is variable every four to 24 hours.

• 16:14Speaker 02

  Some of which like Polkadot is locked up for weeks at a time, some of which like Ethereum is locked up for lesser periods. And so it's actually very difficult, like logistically, operationally, for me to even give those back as cash dividends. It would be super inconsistent. The way people think about a cash dividend is, oh, on a, on a monthly basis or an annual basis, something happens. But actually, the easiest way that happens is, and how our products are constructed, is that with every staking event, the amount of crypto underlying your share increases slightly. And then on an annualized basis, that, that ends up adding,

• 16:55Speaker 02

  I don't know, two to 10%, depending on, on what the asset is and what the staking yield for it is.

• 17:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's unique about 21Shares, which I think I've been an investor now for a number of years, is that you guys operate globally. And, well, it has been a minute, but, you know, success takes time. You know, there's this saying, I forget where I heard it, but excellence doesn't have a watch, right? Like, it just, it happens, and you gotta compound. You guys operate globally. And so you guys are exposed more so than many others in the industry to different jurisdictions, different regulatory bodies. In America, it feels like the political class is now meeting Bitcoin and crypto class. You know, they're kind of showing up, saying, hey, nice to meet you, you know, shaking hands. Do we like each other? Do we not? You've seen this play out many times before in these other regions. Like, tell us what else has happened in the world? And is it just gonna be a repeat?

• 17:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Like, is it the same thing in every jurisdiction? And the US is just now playing out? And we can already look to see what the conclusion is? Or has there been different outcomes in these different jurisdictions?

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it should be the same over, you know, some time period. It's all the same. People in the end.

• 18:11Speaker 02

  Oftentimes, after trying every possible way of battling it, styming it, trying to defeat it one way or another, realize, A, this is inevitable.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  Cat's out of the bag, Pandora's box is opened, you can't really limit it. And then, B, it's not just inevitable and we're being forced into it, but this is actually a pretty cool thing that can change things on a fundamental level for my citizens, for my country, for my country's standing, etc. I mean, the single greatest use case of crypto are stable coins. Last year, Visa settled $10 trillion, stable coins settled $9.3 trillion. That is being felt in a lot of places and reducing payment costs, remittance costs is a net positive for countries.

• 19:05Speaker 02

  It takes a minute, though. It does take a while. And it's pretty confusing. Like, I do think we should give credit to regulators, because this is not... Understanding encryption is not a core part of their job. This is not what they signed up for, right?

• 19:27Speaker 02

  One of the funniest things I've ever heard about crypto, I think it was John Oliver, the comedian, who said this, and he was like, "Crypto is sort of like the Venn diagram of what everyone does not understand about economics, combined with what everyone does not understand about technology." And it's actually true, right? Like, you want a lesson in Bitcoin? Well, let's discuss Mises and the Austrian School of Economics. Let's also discuss encryption and consensus algorithms, and let's figure out politics and social behavior on top of it. It's confusing. It takes... It took us a minute, and we're not fully there yet. You and I are in this space 24/7, and I don't know that I know everything in this space comfortably.

• 20:12Speaker 02

  Of course not. I'm continuously expanding and unlearning new concepts. And so, imagine that from the regulator's standpoint. Now, I do think that we should take a step back and really... Like deeply appreciate those regulators that have been courageous, aggressive, that have been prescient in many ways, because it's not easy. It's actually rather hard and sometimes the tide is pretty against you. Switzerland comes to mind, which is where 21Shares is headquartered. It's where we've listed our first product. A big part of why we are as big as we are today is

• 20:56Speaker 02

  because of how wonderful of a base Switzerland provided us, especially in our early days. Dubai and the UAE are pretty good jurisdictions. Singapore has done some intelligent things. The UK now is doing some intelligent things. MICA in Europe was actually a pretty courageous thing that is going to have incredibly positive ramifications from it. And when we started, we obviously spoke to our home regulator. The first people that we called were the American regulators, the state regulators, the federal regulators, because we wanted to list it here. But America is sort of like a huge oil tanker that just takes a while to turn compared

• 21:38Speaker 02

  with some of the more nimble sailboats that you have globally. But I agree with you. I think that

• 21:47Speaker 02

  the same realizations are now coming true here, which is crypto is here to stay. It's not going anywhere. You can't stop it. And it's not necessarily a bad thing, because actually it has a lot of very positive benefits for our society. And you're going to start seeing more and more politicians realize that. I forget the actual number, but you know, stable coins, for example, are one of the top 20 holders of US debt in the recent treasury auctions. And so when we think about our debt problems and how we've continued to finance.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Our life and how the country is built in this way. Clearly, areas of growth are very, very interesting and crypto may represent an incredible new area of growth that is akin to the petrodollar or the euro bond market or any of the other major foundations that enabled the dollar to continue maintaining its reserve status over the past century.

• 22:51Anthony Pompliano?

  What's your take on the leading political candidates between, you know, what was Joe Biden now appears to be Kamala Harris. You've got Donald Trump and then you've got RFK. Two of the three for sure, and it actually looks like maybe even the third are becoming much friendlier and not just like, hey, I'm not, I'm going to leave you guys alone, but actively now courting the industry, the, you know, kind of asset holders. Is that to be, you know, expected and it's just a continuation of kind of this game theory? How do you kind of evaluate the, the political component in the United States?

• 23:27Speaker 02

  So I think this is, it's a great question. It doesn't have a very simple answer for what's with that. I'm not trying to be Swiss and neutral here. I'll, I'll give you an actual answer. So on one hand, most crypto innovation today, like at the root level in, in the United States is happening out of California and New York. And it's predominantly the Bay Area in California and Brooklyn, New York. Very blue areas, right? Very left leaning predominantly and, and places of liberal values, right?

• 24:06Speaker 02

  Most of Bitcoin mining is happening in red states.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Texas, West Texas is part of why Ted Cruz is really into Bitcoin. Miami is.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  Miami and Florida in general lean more conservative than liberal. It's more red than blue there. Georgia is a major center of Bitcoin mining. And so you get different parts of the ecosystem are actually supported by different jurisdictions that may be left or may be right. And then on the holder's perspective, on the retail perspective, I know a lot about US retail customers of crypto. I've never seen it broken down by, you know, Republicans are more likely to own Bitcoin or Democrats are more likely to own Bitcoin. Turns out that Americans just like Bitcoin and they may like it for different reasons. And I think that's fascinating, right?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  Is that oftentimes we're all climbing the same mountain. This conclusion is the same, but maybe you've gotten there in a different path or for a different reason. But at the end of the day, a majority of Americans like crypto, want to own crypto, purchase crypto, and I think that will continue to be the case. So when you then get into the current political candidates, right? So outside of Joe Biden dropping out, who had policies that made it, let's say, more challenging to do certain things with crypto in the United States. I think in a very stark, very, very stark difference to what Trump has been doing. But that's recent, right?

• 25:48Speaker 02

  Because I'm old enough to remember Trump having a very different stance on crypto. And yet his recent speech at the Bitcoin conference in, what was Nashville, right? Was exceptional. It was everything that the community wanted. RFK was there even before, but maybe people don't remember that. And I think that...

• 26:12Speaker 02

  Kamala just got here, right? She's been the nominee for just a few weeks. I think she is still figuring out what her policy positions are and how to, when there are disagreements with Biden, to share it in a way that is constructive, that emboldens her while not diminishing him and the administration that she was a part of. But I'm confident that even though it's unclear exactly where she's going to go with this, given that a majority of blue states, Democrats and Republicans all buy and appreciate this asset, that at some point, almost all the politicians are going to figure that

• 26:53Speaker 02

  out and be a big part of it, especially because at the end of the day, crypto is just good for America and good for America's standing in the world. And I fundamentally believe that in order for the US dollar to maintain its reserve status, which is an incredibly important thing for the US to maintain for as long as possible, crypto is going to be part of that answer. It should be very comforting to Americans that 99% of stable coins are denominated in dollars and America should be doing more to facilitate more mining here, more stable coins issued in dollars and more innovation in crypto companies operating out of the

• 27:38Speaker 02

  US. So I think it's a matter of time for everybody and I'm comforted by how many people are already here on both sides of the aisle. And the biggest example of this is if you look at the legislative branch, the bipartisan bills on stable coins, for example, clearly show that both Democrats and Republicans are suggesting very real tangible things that should embolden crypto further in the US.

• 28:05Anthony Pompliano?

  Tokenization is another topic that I think people were very excited about previously. You mentioned, you know, Trump didn't like Bitcoin, now he likes Bitcoin. People really like tokenization. Now, actually, it kind of feels like people are like, oh, that's never going to happen. What do you think? Like, there are a couple of institutions and like, pretty serious institutions. You see some BlackRocks and Franklin Templetons, et cetera, you know, kind of playing around, dabbling. Is that something that you think will happen? What does it look like when it does occur? How do you guys anticipate playing in there?

• 28:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I remember our very first conversation, you and I. And one of the things that we talked about are the assumptions that you make because the world that you have lived in has always operated this way. So you don't even think about this being a strange behavior. Like, for example, the stock exchange being closed more hours of the week than it is open. No one really thinks about that. And when you push them, they're like, no, that couldn't be. And then you do the math and you're like, that makes no sense. I think this is one of those instances is if you get to see how the sausage is made and how our financial system is actually architected.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Turns out that settlement and clearing has a lot of issues. It's being held together by duct tape. Turns out that custody banks and third-party administrators, accounting services, auditors, et cetera. It would behoove all of us and all of these elements to incorporate more programmatic, neutral ways of scaling up. And that's where tokenization comes, is that it is fundamentally better, faster, cheaper for a lot of applications. That's number one. Number two is it broadens accessibility, not just in the US, but globally.

• 30:03Speaker 02

  And so you have something that is both going to increase margins and revenues, reduce costs, as well as expand the total market size. So how can you not be excited about that? It's very clearly going to be part of the future. And at some point, as you say, every bond, commodity, stock, equity, et cetera, is going to be tokenized. I believe that. Now, that being said, it is very important to think about what gets tokenized and when. And this is one of the areas where I think we have really struggled is

• 30:42Speaker 02

  It can be wonderful to sit back and daydream about a day where you or I could make a bet on all of the luxury condos in the West Village above 1.2 million in value. Wouldn't it be wonderful to buy a basket of that? Sure, absolutely. We're not there yet. And that's a very, very difficult thing. Once you realize that markets need trading, markets need price discovery, they need liquidity. And so my general personal rule with tokenization is I don't think tokenizing something can bring something that has no liquidity to liquidity.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  That's impossible. But what I do think is that if you already have liquidity, it can actually expand it.

• 31:35Speaker 02

  And so as a result of that, where have we gotten success with tokenization? We tried the real estate thing a few times. You were working on initiatives. We were working on initiatives. We've all tried to do some of these things because again, on paper, I appreciate how attractive the conclusion seems to be. But actually, when you dig deeper into it, it's just very difficult to think about and you wonder what benefits have I built? But where we're now seeing really attractive, high-scale, high-growth tokenization attempts, A, with the US dollar with stable coins, and B, with US Treasuries, which is another highly liquid market. These can be used as building blocks to do a bunch of other things. You'll start seeing equities being tokenized.

• 32:20Speaker 02

  You'll start seeing ETFs being tokenized. And again, starting with ones where there's already a lot of liquidity, you'll probably see both a stock version of it and a tokenized version of it. In the same way that you get Android and iOS versions of apps, you'll be able to either buy this in a crypto wallet or buy this through a brokerage. And then over time... Maybe we will converge towards one more than the other, but that's how I think about it overall. And we're going to play a big role in this. All of our ETFs are built on Onyx, which is our underlying infrastructure, our issuance and administration platform. We have

• 33:02Speaker 02

  a bunch of our competitors and other third-party asset managers who run off of it. And it has the ability to do that. It has the ability to issue both a share as well as a token. And so we're doing a bunch of things to tokenize highly liquid commodities, highly liquid stocks and ETFs, funds in general. And this is something that I think we will see more and more of.

• 33:30Anthony Pompliano?

  Before I let you go, talk a little bit about 21Shares. It's a much bigger business that I think people realize. What numbers can you share with us or milestones and kind of, you know, how do you describe the business today?

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's gotten to be a bit bigger than we all thought it would be. We are, we're over $7 billion in AUM. We are the world's largest issuer of crypto ETFs by far, especially by number of products. We have something like 50 ETFs. We have the Bitcoin and the Ethereum and the Solana ones, but we also have the highest number of baskets. We have short Bitcoin and short Ethereum so that you can hedge or make a bet on the negative price action. We have the highest, the largest products, we have stakable assets, and we have all of these thematic

• 34:24Speaker 02

  products as well. We are the largest crypto ETF issuer in Europe, in the Middle East, in APAC, in Australia, and the third largest in the US, although we're working very, very hard to rise even higher than that. About 50 ETFs in total of various types. We launch a bunch every year. And 7 billion in AUM.

• 34:54Speaker 02

  And in many cases, we were talking about this before the show. In many cases, a disproportionate amount of some of the crypto assets are in our ETFs. So over a percent of the total Solana in the world is in our ETFs. And we've, I remember, you know, this has a billion dollars or more now. And I remember launching this thing with just a couple of million dollars a few years ago. And so we've risen so highly because we are a big index and a growth accelerant of the crypto asset market, which itself has risen like bananas. And so I think we've, we've gotten a lot of the rewards from that.

• 35:38Anthony Pompliano?

  Do you have any major milestone predictions between now and the end of whatever bull run we're in now? Like, are there things you're looking forward to that you say, you know, these are things that are still left to actually occur? I think, you know, public pensions buying was one, then you got kind of the ETF approvals. That's now done. Like, what are the next milestones?

• 36:03Speaker 02

  A couple of things. On the more traditional front, I can't wait for the sovereigns to buy. And I'm talking about real sovereign funds. We're talking to a bunch, a lot of them are doing research and you'll start seeing central banks and sovereign wealth funds, probably the sovereigns first, then central banks hold something. And when they do, that's going to be, I don't know, to you and me have been in this space for a long time, absolutely ridiculous. This is something that we talked about.

• 36:35Anthony Pompliano?

  The sovereign wealth are gonna, are gonna buy people's bags?

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly. Governments too, bro. And so that's, that's, that's on the traditional side. On the more crypto native side, I love stable coins. I can't wait to see more innovation there and more use cases because I think it's something that really can touch a lot of people in a way that they understand. And then on the smart contracts. On the platform side, we're quite bullish on Solana. We think Ethereum is here to stay and going to do a tremendous amount. But Solana is going to enable a new class of applications that could not run as well on Ethereum. And as a result, I think the next bull market is going to be very, very interesting for both of those assets in different ways.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  And I don't know where it ends up, but I really look forward to watching it.

• 37:26Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it. Where can we send people to find 21Shares online?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  21Shares.com, at 21Shares on Twitter, X.

• 37:35Anthony Pompliano?

  Thank you very much for doing this. We'll do it again soon, my friend.

• 37:38Speaker 02

  Thanks for having me.