63: Through The Valley: My Captivity in Vietnam, with Colonel William Reeder, US Army Pilot, Vietnam POW

0:00:00 - Opening 0:05:46 - Intro to Bill Reeder 0:09:35 - First Tour in Vietnam 0:15:23 - Second Tour in Vietnam 0:35:23 - The Crash 0:49:55 - The Capture 2:10:10 - Freedom from Capture 2:19:04 - Aftermath and the Take-Away 2:33:14 - Support, Cool Onnit http://www.onnit.com/jocko, Amazon https://www.amazon.com/?&tag=jocko20-20&camp=216797&creative=498533&linkCode=ur1&adid=1DKYGWXQBV0KNEZ3MZZX&, JockoStore http://www.jockostore.com stuff, with Jocko White Tea http://www.jockotea.com and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes) https://itunes.apple.com/us/album/psychological-warfare/id1183222322. Extreme Ownership (book) http://amzn.to/2jonHTx and The Muster002 http://www.extremeownership.com 2:39:09 - Closing Gratitude Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast Number 63 with Echo Charles and me Jocko Willink. Good evening Echo.

• 0:08Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:13Jocko Willink?

  I am an American fighting man. I serve in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.

• 0:27Jocko Willink?

  I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender my men while they still have the means to resist.

• 0:39Jocko Willink?

  If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.

• 0:55Jocko Willink?

  If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any actions which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.

• 1:21Jocko Willink?

  When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war? I am bound to give only name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.

• 1:47Jocko Willink?

  I will never forget that I am an American fighting man, responsible for my actions and dedicated to the principles which made my country free.

• 1:59Jocko Willink?

  I will trust in God and in the United States of America.

• 2:09Jocko Willink?

  And that is the 1955 version of the Code of Conduct for the Armed Forces of the United States.

• 2:21Jocko Willink?

  And it was written in response to the brutal treatment of the 7,190 Americans captured by the enemy during the Korean War. Prisoners who were subjected to torture, indoctrination, brainwashing, and forced confessions.

• 2:45Jocko Willink?

  And that version of the code that I just read is almost exactly the same as the one that I learned in the military when I joined in 1990. They did make some changes to it. They changed it to include men and women. And they changed two words to give some flexibility to increase survivability and psychological recovery from torture. And so the little changes that were made, it changed from the prisoner being bound to give only name, rank, and service number and date of birth to the prisoner being required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth.

• 3:30Jocko Willink?

  Small changes. But the spirit of the code didn't change at all.

• 3:37Jocko Willink?

  And that code is what we as military fighting men and women were and are

• 3:47Jocko Willink?

  expected to uphold should we ever be captured and held as prisoners by the enemy.

• 3:58Jocko Willink?

  The Code of Conduct is simple and clear and straightforward.

• 4:08Jocko Willink?

  But the code of conduct gets tested unlike any other document in the world.

• 4:17Jocko Willink?

  When our American servicemen and women are somehow captured.

• 4:23Jocko Willink?

  And as prisoners of war face absolutely ruthless levels of torture, pain, suffering, disease, starvation, humiliation, and perhaps the most devastating hopelessness.

• 4:44Jocko Willink?

  And tonight, it is my absolute honor to have one of these men here.

• 4:57Jocko Willink?

  One who during almost a full year of horror upon horror at the hands of his captors in Vietnam. A man who persevered and fought with every ounce of his soul to survive against the worst possible conditions imaginable.

• 5:19Jocko Willink?

  A man that not only learned the code of conduct, but lived it.

• 5:30Jocko Willink?

  Retired Army Colonel William Bill Reader. Sir, thank you so much for being here tonight.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Thank you, Jocko. It's my honor indeed to be here and participate in this podcast as well. Thank you.

• 5:47Jocko Willink?

  I want to, just before we jump into the book, if you could just talk a little bit about you, growing up, what you did, what you were like, where you were.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Oh, boy. Okay, I didn't know this was coming. Yeah, I was essentially a kid off the streets of Los Angeles. I was born in Glendale, grew up for a time in the San Fernando Valley, which is in the opening prologue to the book. Yeah, I had a tough childhood, I guess I would say. Got into some trouble as a, as a young guy. Sports helped me at least survive to graduate from high school. Left college and I went off to college at University of Idaho to study forestry. Left college on less than esteemed academic terms after only one, one year. Worked for a time as a, I worked all the time as a kid with various small jobs, newspaper

• 6:41Speaker 02

  routes and selling magazines to door to door. Then did some construction work in my early teens, roofing work. But yeah, after I left college, I worked cattle ranches for a while. I worked for the US Forest Service for a time, ultimately as a firefighter. I got laid off in the end of fire season, went back home to Los Angeles and found a job with Southern California Edison and Santa Monica, climbing power lines as an apprentice lineman. And did that until the outbreak of the Vietnam War and then found my real niche in life when I walked into the Army recruiter in Santa Monica, California and signed on the dotted line. What year was that? 1965. So, you know, the Tonkin Gulf incident occurred, that's where the, the US Destroyers

• 7:26Speaker 02

  were attacked in 1964. We put Marines ashore in Da Nang in March of 1965. That's when I started talking to recruiters. First I was going in the Marine Corps, but somehow ended up enlisting in the Army in, in August of 1965. And then what was the transition to becoming a pilot? Yeah, well, so I started out enlisted, went to basic training and advanced individual training, AIT. AIT. Cannon, cannoner, a member of a cannon crew in an artillery unit. And then applied for Officer Candidate School. And they took those with the highest test scores. You had to pass a series of interviews. But they were looking for officers then, especially artillery lieutenants. And so I went to Artillery Officer Candidate School, six months of, of training

• 8:10Speaker 02

  with some degree of harassment. And then got commissioned in August of 1966 as a second lieutenant in artillery.

• 8:17Jocko Willink?

  And then how long did you do artillery for before you became a pilot?

• 8:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was about a year. I didn't think I was gonna be able to fly, and that's really why I didn't go in the Marine Corps. I wanted to be a pilot. There were only two services you could fly without a college degree. So this college dropout had hopes in either the Marine Corps or the Army. Uh, when I went and saw the Marine recruiter, he gave me a battery of tests. Uh, and he said, and he said, "Yeah, you qualify for a flight and we can guarantee you a flight training." I said, "Okay, so what do I have to do?" He says, "You just go in, as long as you pass a flight physical, you're good to go." So I could sense there was something afoot here. So before I went in, I went to a FAA flight surgeon in Santa Monica. He said, "Give me the same flight physical the military does and tell me if I could pass it." Uh, so he gave me the physical and said, "No, you wouldn't pass it."

• 9:01Speaker 02

  He said, "Your right eye is about 2025 to 2030. You have an astigmatism. They require a perfect 2020 vision. You couldn't pass the flight physical." So I wrote off the Marine Corps. I wasn't gonna do that. And I, I went into the, into the Army instead, thinking I would never fly. After I went to officer candidate school, I got commissioned. I was working in an artillery assignment at Fort Carson, Colorado. Uh, and went in for an annual physical. And when I got the physical, it came back 2020 to both eyes. So I was, I was in like Flynn, uh, took that down to the flight surgeon, put my application in and, and went off to flight school.

• 9:35Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Awesome. And so I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump into the book here. You, um, you spent your first tour in Vietnam. I think it was your first tour in Vietnam, you were flying the Mohawk?

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:48Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so first tour in Vietnam. And by the way, you know, we were talking before the podcast about how much risk you guys took

• 9:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 9:57Jocko Willink?

  in Vietnam as pilots. It's, it's actually crazy. We'll get into more of that. But one of the things that struck me is I'm in the beginning of your book and you're talking about how you got shot down on your first deployment to Vietnam

• 10:08Speaker 02

  I did.

• 10:08Jocko Willink?

  as a pilot. So, so here, here's you telling that story to your, your crew when you go on your second deployment that you said, "Yeah, the first couple of operations we've done here, they've been pretty exciting. But you know, I had some good ones on my last deployment too, by the way, got shot down." And so here, I'm gonna go to the book here. This is what happened when you got shot down for the first time. Took a 37 millimeter anti-aircraft hit in the right wing, attacking a fuel depot hidden under the trees. Classified mission in Laos over the Ho Chi Minh Trail. I pulled up from a rocket run, wham, the whole right side of the aircraft seemed to explode. We tumbled out of control. The right wing shattered and was on fire. Worked it hard, got back some ability to fly. Got the fire out. But we were descending fast, could not hold altitude.

• 10:53Jocko Willink?

  Gave the command to eject. The observer went out. I pulled my seat handle right after. I had a very short parachute ride. Only got partial chute deployment before hitting the ground with a thud. We were crashing through the treetops by the time I punched out. So, so for those people that don't know what all that means right there, that means, you know, when you pull an ejection handle on a, on a, when you're in a plane, it ejects you out. But you're supposed to do it with some level of altitude.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:23Jocko Willink?

  Not when you're hitting the treetops. So you're hitting the treetops and that, and the canopy not opening all the way. That means that the full usage of the parachute isn't there. It's just sort of getting opened and then boom, hits the ground.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  My wingman took a picture of my chute down site and you can see the, the parachute is just all strung out. And I'm laying there at the end of the parachute. I never got a single oscillation. I got a partial chute deployment and hit the ground.

• 11:49Jocko Willink?

  I'm glad we can sit here and laugh at this. Am I offending you by laughing at this? I hope not.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  No, you're not because I mean, you made a comment about, you know, taking the hits and the intensity. And it was, it really was. But there's something crazy about young men and, and at that point in my life, I was a kid living a dream and I got blown out of the sky on my first tour. Yes, I survived it and somehow in my crazy twisted mind, I couldn't wait to get back over on a second tour flying Cobra attack helicopters.

• 12:19Jocko Willink?

  By the way, so this is what happens once you get on the ground. Here we go, back to the book. Then I was nearly captured. I ran through the jungle 45 minutes while my wingman put down suppressive fire. That earned me the nickname Lightfoot.

• 12:33Jocko Willink?

  Got plucked out of the jungle by an air force helicopter from the 20th Special Operations Squadron out of Thailand called the callsign Pony Express. Spent some time in the hospital there. Eventually, I returned to the unit, back to flight duties. This is incredible. We lost 15 airplanes at that point out of 18. 30 crew members shot down. Not many of them ever recovered. I was one of the few. Lousy odds. I was scared then. I'll tell you. If you don't get scared in combat, you're a liar or nuts. Only after a tense mission is over, does the real fright come. When there's time to sit and think, you watch it all play out in your mind and wonder how the hell you lived through something like that.

• 13:17Jocko Willink?

  So again, we were talking before, before we pressed record about the, you know, about how protective America is of its aircraft right now. I can't even imagine you guys had 15 out of 18 airplanes that were shot down. That's, that's insane.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  And that was a sophisticated, expensive aircraft for the army at the time. The Mohawk was pretty much top of the line technology army aircraft then.

• 13:49Jocko Willink?

  Very, yeah, that's, that's a totally different mentality than we have now. Totally different mentality.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that was a special unit. We had five Mohawk companies in Vietnam at that time. Four of them were for each of the four core tactical zones inside of South Vietnam. They flew missions in support of those areas. We were the fifth company, the bastard company. We flew out of Way Phu Bay. The only time we saw South Vietnam was for takeoffs and landings. All of our missions were in Laos or up off the coast of North Vietnam. And then I had one highly classified one I had to deploy down to Tonsonu at Saigon to go into Cambodia. That I didn't know what that was all about. It was really hush hush at the time. That was in the advance of the big Cambodia incursion that took place in 70.

• 14:33Jocko Willink?

  Did they develop the Mohawks for Vietnam? Cause it's an interesting aircraft. It's a side by side and it's a prop plane too.

• 14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, twin turboprop was built purely for reconnaissance and surveillance, Grumman aircraft.

• 14:47Jocko Willink?

  But then you guys went ahead and put missiles on them or rockets, right?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  We put rockets and there were Zuni missiles fired. But yeah, we had rockets and pod bound and machine guns. Yeah, that led to my Cobra experience because I really, that was my favorite mission were the gun missions. In the Mohawk, not all of them were armed, but I liked the gun missions. When I came back, my first tour, there was a spat between the Army and the Air Force. And the result of the spat was we had to take all the armament off the Mohawks. So when I went back on second tour, I wanted to go on a gunship, not something without guns. So that got me into Cobras.

• 15:18Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's weird. Those bureaucratic spats happen and decisions like that get made. That's really disturbing. So let's get into your, your second tour.

• 15:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 15:28Jocko Willink?

  And I'm going to jump into this piece here. Back to the book, on April 14th, we received a radio call that Firebase Charlie was under attack by two regiments. 3,000 soldiers of the 320th NVA Infantry Division and 130 millimeter artillery shells were pounding the position. So you guys get this call, this, this friendly base is being overrun, basically. And here you show up on the scene. Now you're flying a Cobra, which for those of you that don't know, a Cobra is a gunship, as you just said. It's still in service today. The Marine Corps.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  The Marine Corps is still flying Cobras.

• 16:04Jocko Willink?

  And very narrow, skinny. It's based on a Huey, right?

• 16:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, you know, the Huey was designed and went to Vietnam and most everybody's familiar with the Huey. The Huey took on a gun mission though, that in Vietnam, we saw the utility of guns on our aircraft. So the Cobra then was designed specifically and only as a gunship. And they took the Huey design, narrowed it down to 36 inches. Pilot in the backseat, co-pilot gunner in the front seat, 2.75 rockets on the wing stores. Minigun and 40 millimeter grenade launcher and a movable nose turret. And it was one killing machine.

• 16:39Jocko Willink?

  And it still apparently brings a giant smile to your face when you talk about that, which is lovely.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't want to seem twisted. I mean, I said at the time, I was a kid living a dream, and I was, but I don't want to take away from the horror of combat, and it was scary as crap on every single mission, but there's still something about a young guy going to war, at least a certain type of young guy, and those that were in the two units I served in, that, yeah, we were dedicated to what we did, and I think we did it well, and I'm still smiling about it.

• 17:11Jocko Willink?

  Well, so far, every guy I've brought in to this podcast has the exact same attitude, so you're among friends here.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 17:19Jocko Willink?

  So I'm going now, you guys are there, you show up with your Cobras. Back to the book, "We made several passes on enemy guns. Bullets streamed past our cockpits as the NVA gunners tried to bring us down. Rolling in on a 51 position is always dicey." So this is a 51 caliber, it's a Dishka, it's an anti-aircraft gun.

• 17:39Speaker 02

  Anti-aircraft machine gun.

• 17:40Jocko Willink?

  And they actually had those when we were in Ramadi, they still had Dishkas, and they used them against us. Tracers come at you and miss by a few feet. You try to get rockets onto him before he gets lucky and blasts you out of the sky. We took small arms hits. My knees vibrated like a sewing machine, but I focused on controlling the helicopter, lining up the gun sights and shooting. I was scared but had no time for it. Dan radioed Dusty, Cyanide Panther 1, 3. Panther 1, 3, be advised, running low on fuel, out of ammo. We're breaking station for re-arm, refuel. Roger 1, 3, four gun crews taken out. Good work, hurry back."

• 18:22Jocko Willink?

  So you're radioing to the guy on the ground, who's there, so there's an American advisor on the ground with a bunch of South Vietnamese soldiers, they're being overrun, you come in, you're taking heavy fire, but you're giving back fire, you tell them, hey, we gotta go and get some more ammunition. He's saying, "Good job, hurry back."

• 18:44Jocko Willink?

  And when you do show up back, the NVA attack is now more intense. And here's the call that you get when you show back up Panther. That's you, by the way, Panther, Pink Panthers is your, is your Cause our call sign is Your call sign is Panther. Here's the call you get Panther. The battalion commander is dead. Acting commander wounded. Enemy broken through on the southwest. Put it there first, then all around us, but real close.

• 19:15Jocko Willink?

  So for those people that don't understand what this means, when you're on the ground calling for fire. It's, it's, and I've talked about a lot of fratricide and blue on blue situations. I've, I had them on my deployment and it's, it's a very scary thing. And it's even scarier from the air to the ground. It's, it's, it's hard for people to understand this. When you're in an aircraft, it's very hard to see what's happening on the ground. It can be very easy to get confused. And so it's hard to bring fire very close to your position unless you are just in a terrible situation. And so when you get a call that's saying, put the fire all around us as close as you can.

• 20:00Jocko Willink?

  You know, this is a desperate scenario. And so I'll go back to the book. Roger Dusty, we've got him. After a number of Cobra attack runs Duffy called Panther lead. This is Dusty Cyanide. So that's the guy on the ground. That's his call sign Dusty Cyanide. You've broken the enemy attack for now. Hundreds of bodies in the wire, maybe a thousand, but we cannot hold. After a short break, he continued, we are leaving firebase Charlie now. Stop them from following us, whatever it takes. Put your stuff right on top of the firebase now. And again, this is something that it just.

• 20:43Jocko Willink?

  To explain what that means, if you don't understand what, if you were never in the military, to explain, you're calling for people to drop fire onto your own position so that you can get away. It doesn't get any, there's nothing, it doesn't get any more intense, it doesn't get any more dramatic, it doesn't get any more sketchy than that right there.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  That was one hell of a fight, and John Joseph Duffy was the advisor, the American advisor on the ground, and he is a true American hero, Army Special Forces Officer, had those advisor duties. That battle, the battle lasted for about two weeks, the climax of it was a couple days with that last night that is described in the book. Out of a 470-man South Vietnamese airborne paratroop battalion, at the end of that fight, the next morning, the American advisor, John Joseph Duffy, and 36 of the South Vietnamese were all that survived to be picked up when they, when they got off of that fire base. And, and John was wounded five times in, in the battle. So yeah, 470-man battalion, 36 survivors and their, and their

• 21:48Speaker 02

  wounded American advisor.

• 21:49Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely unbelievable, and I know you wrote in here that Major Duffy was recommended for the Medal of Honor, and he got the Distinguished Service Cross for his actions, which if you don't know what that is, it's, it's the second highest award underneath the Medal of Honor. Yeah, and, and you actually talk about possibly writing about that battle?

• 22:11Speaker 02

  That's my, that's my next project. In, in doing this book, and there's a, there's a statement at the beginning of the book that I wrote this some 40 years after I experienced these actions, and, and some things were still perfectly clear in my mind. Other things were a little bit hazier than I thought they would be when I put pen to paper. So in the process of writing, I not only just dug down in my mind and relived every experience as detailed as I could to get everything correct. I contacted those who were also involved in the actions to get their versions, their view, their recollections, to be sure I had this as right as I could. John Joseph Duffy was one that I got ahold of, Major Duffy. I had never met him, had never talked to him since that battle until I was able to track

• 22:55Speaker 02

  him down with the wonders of modern communication and internet. And in sharing the details about that fight, he dropped a couple of hints. He said, "You know, somebody really ought to write the history of the Battle of Firebase Charlie. This is one of the most extraordinary fights in the entire Vietnam War." So I think it was after about the half a dozen times he said that. I said, "Okay, John, I'll do it. I'll write it." So yes, right now, I'm working on doing my research and getting everything in order to write the story of that battle in more detail than I give on my, what, couple of pages or in my book.

• 23:25Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's one of the, one of the most interesting things for me about doing this podcast. And we're, again, another thing we were talking about is, there's so many, you know, I didn't know about that battle. And I'm a pretty decent student of military history. I didn't know about that battle and didn't know about Major John Duffy. I absolutely should, and we all should. And what you realize is, that battle, that man, will never be able to account for all these heroes. You just can't do it. So, again, this is fast forwarding a little bit through the book.

• 24:09Jocko Willink?

  And by the way, I didn't mention the name of the book yet.

• 24:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, thank you.

• 24:12Jocko Willink?

  The name of the book is Through the Valley: My Captivity in Vietnam by William Reader. And, get this book. So, at this point, I'm jumping ahead a little bit to...

• 24:31Jocko Willink?

  A situation where you've got, and I'll go to the book, Tanks in the Wire at Poli Clang. Launch now and call me Enro for their radio freak. Hawk's Claw will get up later. You'll be covering him too. You have tail number 053 and 682. Go. So, that right there is something bad is happening and you gotta go now. And what's, what's interesting, and I'll point this out for, again, people that aren't in the military. By the way, a lot of guys that listen to this are in the military, a lot of law enforcement, but there's a lot of civilians that don't know everything that I'm talking about or that we're, that you're talking about.

• 25:12Jocko Willink?

  So what I like about this is that what they're telling, what they're telling the Colonel to do is launch your aircraft, just go get in an aircraft and launch and start heading in that direction. We'll give you a frequency when you get up there. We'll tell you what's gonna happen once you get up there, but go. So again, this is an in extremis situation. What we would do that would be similar to this in the SEAL teams is we would go on QRF missions, Quick Reaction Forces, where they would call, it'd happen to me where they'd call up and say, "Hey, something's going on here at this location. Go." And I'd say, "Who's the unit? We don't know yet." "Any frequency? What's, what radio frequency are on? We don't know yet. We'll get it to you. Launch." We'd get in our vehicles and launch.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, you develop the situation in route and then when you lay eyes on, when you get there and start talking to the folks.

• 25:57Jocko Willink?

  Exactly. Back to the book, "I stuffed a small emergency radio into one of the pockets of my survival vest. No time to perform the normal check on the radio." I, I had to include that.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  There's a lesson learned there.

• 26:10Jocko Willink?

  I had to include that. It's, you know, the radio will always work if you test it. And the one time you don't test it is the one time.

• 26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the lesson. Check all your survival gear, be sure it's in order regardless of how hot that mission is.

• 26:30Jocko Willink?

  Now, you're heading to a place called Ben Het. And I'm going to the book. We headed to Ben Het. As we crossed the last ridge line, the entire valley before us was filled with smoke. Tracers streamed outward from defensive positions inside the camp. Enemy tracers replied from outside. Two jet fighters bombed next to the camp. NVA rockets, artillery, and mortars exploded in the camp. Enemy tanks breached the perimeter. One inside and partway up the hill looked like it had been killed already. I couldn't be sure. An AC-130, an Air Force AC-130 Spectre gunship was leaving.

• 27:09Jocko Willink?

  He'd worked the area over with 20mm Vulcan Gatling guns and 40mm cannons, probably hitting the tank. Enemy infantry moved through openings in the jungle canopy. I could see groups assembling to join the attack.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was, it was one heck of a, heck of a battle. This, this whole situation we're getting to in the book occurred during the Easter Offensive of 1972. When I arrived back in Vietnam at the end of 71, it seemed like the war was over. In fact, I was afraid that maybe I'd missed my chance for combat in a Cobra because things were so quiet. Many American, in fact, most American forces had been withdrawn in the central part of Vietnam, the central highlands where I was operating. There were no American ground forces left at all. Just some special forces guys, Army Aviation Units, and some Air Force Units. That was it. How that changed is we got into the spring of 1972, because the enemy had been building up their divisions across the border into Laos and Cambodia. And in the

• 28:10Speaker 02

  spring of 72, they launched an attack from the Demolitri Zone, an attack from Cambodia towards Saigon, and then finally in April, attacks across the central highlands where we were. And there were a lot of enemy. This day at Ben Het, of course, this is going to turn into the, the day, the day that we're getting to here. But yeah, elements of two North Vietnamese divisions with artillery, with anti-aircraft weapons galore, and with, with armor, going into the, into the camp. And there we showed up with our two Cobras to do, do what we could do.

• 28:40Jocko Willink?

  Was that your first time seeing armor, enemy armor?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  No, but that period was on the 24th, because this is the 9th of May. On the 24th of April, the enemy attacked the 22nd Arvin, that's Army of Vietnam Division Headquarters at Tan Can, which is a little bit further to the east from Ben Hette. So on the 24th of April, they attacked Tan Can and defeated and overran that NVA division with a number of tanks. So that was the first time I saw tanks in battle. Then we come out on the 9th of May and I'm seeing tanks again.

• 29:11Jocko Willink?

  Whole different ballgame for the guys on the ground.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah, this guerrilla war suddenly turned into a very conventional war, fighting regular North Vietnamese divisions.

• 29:23Jocko Willink?

  Now, once again, you had some time on station. You did a bunch of shooting and running and gunning. You had to go back to reload, refuel. And I'm going back to the book now. On our way back to Ben Hette, we could see the battle continuing at Poli Clang. Vietnamese Air Force A1 Sky Raiders dove, dropping bombs. We passed close enough to see one as it trailed smoke and flame and went into the ground in an awful explosion. I saw a parachute and a mayday call came over the radio, emergency radio frequency. I called headquarters to tell them I was diverting for a few minutes to help cover the downed VNAF. So the Vietnamese Air Force pilot.

• 30:08Jocko Willink?

  Negative Panther 36, permission denied. Proceed direct to Ben Hette. Out. You tried again, same results. So you saw a North Vietnamese, or a South Vietnamese Air Force pilot get shot down.

• 30:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  And you call back to base and say, I'm going to go cover for this guy when they try and rescue him and they tell you no.

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:31Jocko Willink?

  Now, so you do what you're told here.

• 30:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, decisions in combat. I mean, and there's pluses and minuses to that. There were guys on the ground at Ben Hette in serious trouble. At Ben Hette, there were two Vietnamese Ranger battalions. So probably 400 or 500 people at the most, probably 400 people on the ground at Ben Hette with two American advisors. There was two Americans on the ground. They are under attack by elements of two North Vietnamese divisions, which means thousands of infantry with the tanks and artillery and everything attacking. So yeah, they were in dire straits, though I really had hoped we could briefly stop over and help get this Vietnamese Air Force pilot picked up.

• 31:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, no, that's a tough decision for. Command to make, but from my position, I look at it like, okay, the command has a better overall view of the battlefield right now. And if they're telling me to proceed on to Ben Hett, got it. Even though you, obviously as a pilot, you have a little.

• 31:24Speaker 02

  Good. I'm glad you have that perspective because I didn't have that at the time at all.

• 31:28Jocko Willink?

  Well, it's easy for me right now, sitting in the air conditioned space with my headset on.

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yeah. So much in Vietnam, you know, and warfare is different today. And I think things are probably much more planned out and you go to a, according to a set of rules and procedures more than we did. So many of these combat missions with Cobras in Vietnam in that day and age, we would get launched out of our base and we'd go out and make contact with people. And it was pretty much up to the pilot and commander, the air mission commander, to decide where he would go and how he would support and what was the hottest fire in town that needed help. So we always, and some of it was just, I guess, our pompous attitude too. We always felt we had a better handle on what was happening than the guys in the headquarters that made some of those decisions. In fact, when we first saw tanks

• 32:16Speaker 02

  in the area before that battle at Tan Can on the 24th of April, we saw tanks and reported them back through headquarters. And there was a great deal of reluctance on the part of anybody in the headquarters staff to believe that there were tanks. There was a guy that, in fact, this is another interesting situation at Vietnam in that time. The senior commander in two corps, that area that I was operating in, was not a military guy. There was a civilian named John Paul Van. And Mr. Van made all the decisions. Now, to keep things legal, he had a two-star Army General Officer working for him. So all military orders came through the Army General, but Mr. Van was making the decisions. And when we reported we had seen tanks in mid, yeah, mid-April, Van said, no, there's not tanks. I fly out there all

• 33:01Speaker 02

  the time. If there are tanks, I'd have seen them. He said, what you guys saw are probably elephants in the jungle. So that's, that's what we dealt with, with our headquarters.

• 33:09Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, that's interesting. There definitely was, when I was in Iraq, there was very tight control over. Air to ground support, especially in the cities in Ramadi, it was very difficult to get bombs dropped. But you know who had really good decentralized command was the tanks and the tanks that we worked with, they would, they would come and they had pretty good control over what, you know, I'm talking the tank commander.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 33:36Jocko Willink?

  At least at the company command level, we had some company commanders that would just get after it and they would, would make stuff happen. So we felt really comfortable working with the tankers and, and they supported us over and over and over again, really, like I said, with a lot of decentralized command, you know, they couldn't, they had to use some, they obviously used discretion, but they had a lot of authority out there, which was, which was great for us.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  Which we did as well, which was, was really good. So at any, yeah, you left me, I'm, I'm going back from we rearmed, refueled a contune, we're heading back up, we're denied permission to deviate over to Poli Clang and we're, we're getting back into it at Benet one more time.

• 34:14Jocko Willink?

  And now what you're doing, when I'm going to pick the story back up here, there's a Huey that's got resupply. So he's got, you know, bullets, probably bullets, water and food, maybe at this point just bullets and they need to get that gear down to the guys on the ground.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  Right. The guys on the ground, the base had been pretty much completely overrun. The friendlies had consolidated in a command bunker complex or defensive dug in positions at the top of the hill, which was their firebase. They were, when we got the call to cover that Huey, we were told that the guys on the ground were completely out of anti-tank ammo and were almost out of small arms ammunition and could we cover this Huey in for the resupply?

• 34:52Jocko Willink?

  So here we go, back to the book. The Huey came into a low hover near the command bunker. The crew kicked out the ammo boxes. The helicopter did a hovering turn and took off. I began a sharp left turn so I could continue shooting suppressive fire for him. The enemy opened up on our two Cobras with everything they had. My view left, right and above and below was filled with tracers. Tim fired continuously and Tim was your...

• 35:20Speaker 02

  Tim was, Tim was my front seater, my co-pilot gunner in the front seat, working that nose turret while I was firing rockets.

• 35:26Jocko Willink?

  Tim fired continuously on those firing at us. We took large caliber hits all over the aircraft. 51s like I talked about and 14.5 millimeter rounds came through the cockpit. Hits from small arms always felt something like Jiffy Pop popcorn popping against its tinfoil cover. These seemed like jackhammers slamming into the aircraft. Beginning in the rear, working up the side, and then into the cockpit. The tail rotor was shot off, and the engine was shot up. Every system on the helicopter was damaged in some way. Without the tail rotor, the aircraft began to spin. Fuel lines ruptured and we were burning. I keyed the microphone.

• 36:07Jocko Willink?

  "This is 36, taking fire from 4 o'clock, taking fire everywhere, taking fire, taking hits, going down, Panther going down." The engine quit. The rotor RPM caution light flashed. The audio warning sounded, announcing that my rotor blades were turning dangerously slow. I slammed the collective down hard to auto-rotate. "Under optimal conditions, this is a controlled emergency descent." "Under these conditions, I could only hope to lessen the severity of the crash." We corkscrewed down in flames. As I wrestled the aircraft, I radioed my wingman. "Flame, you better get in here and get us out, quick." There was no answer. They were fighting for their lives.

• 36:51Jocko Willink?

  I learned years later that when I called "taking hits", Flame had banked his Cobra and fired rockets onto the position shooting at me. As he did so, a big ugly 51 round came through the cockpit and tore into his chest, high on the left side. Bob took the controls and headed for help, flying from the front seat. My Cobra came down, spinning and burning. It hit the ground hard, nose low on the left side. It bounced back into the air, spun another turn and a half, and crashed. It settled nearly upright, fire engulfed the cockpit.

• 37:35Jocko Willink?

  So...

• 37:39Jocko Willink?

  Pilots are known for maintaining their composure, right? And I've, I've heard pilots do it. And, and clearly, you know, you're saying, we're taking hits, we're taking fire from everywhere. We're going down, Panther going down.

• 37:53Jocko Willink?

  Are you so tracking on controlling the aircraft? That you're, you're just completely focused on that, that the rest of what's happening is a little bit blocked out? Or what?

• 38:07Jocko Willink?

  Are you thinking to yourself, I gotta survive this crash? Are you not worried about the fact that when you get on the ground, hey, now I'm going to be surrounded by enemy?

• 38:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, none of those thoughts are, are taking place. As I said in an earlier thing that you read, everyone who's not totally insane is, is scared in combat. Oftentimes that fear comes about after the missions are over at the end of the day, when you think back on what you've been through that day. Thank goodness, we got to drink alcohol in Vietnam. I don't know how people survive in war today, I really don't. We got drunk every single night and then went back out the next day and, and did it again. So there's fear at the end of the day. There's also fear and trepidation to a degree when you first go, like when I described coming across the hill and seeing what that battle at Ben Hill looked like, tracer stuff all over the place. I mean, you get butterflies in your stomach and you're anxious.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  But once you go in on that mission and, and start those gun runs, it's all, there's, there's, there's no time, there's no mental space for any of that other thought. There's no mental space for that fear. You just focus on what you have to do and you do it. And, and the pull thing we just read of getting shot down, though still, I mean, all these years later, I'm sitting here with a red emotional flush in my face, reliving this yet one more time. But no, I don't, I don't recall thinking of anything in those moments, but, but doing that mission, controlling that aircraft, dealing with that emergency situation as best I could and, and going through the whole process. I don't even think there was a thought of life or death, or am I going to make it or not make it or anything? None of that was even there.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  It was, it's, you do what you have to do and, and get it done. And then when it all settled in and, and, and, you know. Hit, spun, settled in, crashed, smoke and flames everywhere. The thing begins exploding. Uh, then even then, there's not time for that fear factor then, because then you start dealing with, okay, what do I have to do now to survive this and get out of here?

• 40:00Jocko Willink?

  And so your aircraft's on fire and yeah, I guess you're not sitting around pondering much when your aircraft's on fire and you're stuck and they're trying to get out. You get hung up while you're getting out, by the way.

• 40:09Speaker 02

  I did.

• 40:12Jocko Willink?

  So you,

• 40:17Jocko Willink?

  you do get out, you make it away from the bird a little bit and you, you end up getting some distance away. You, you lost your wingman, right? Or sorry, you lost your, your, um,

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, my, my wingman took the 51.

• 40:32Jocko Willink?

  Your wingman took the 51, but Tim, he got out of the aircraft too and took off in another direction?

• 40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, my front seat, Tim Connery. In a Cobra, the, there's two canopies, one for the front seat, one for the back. The front seat canopy opens to the left, the backseat canopy opens to the right. Uh, so we, we hit, we had an intercom conversation. I said, uh, I don't know, I said, let's get out of this thing. That's, that's good enough for that. And, and, and he rogered that call and, uh, and then he got out his way. I got out my way. I don't know if you had that little vignette of what happened when I was hanging upside down out the aircraft.

• 41:06Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I do.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  That guy was from New England too. Uh, Mark, Mark Truhan, the advisor on the ground there.

• 41:12Jocko Willink?

  I'll, I'll, I'll go ahead and,

• 41:13Speaker 02

  If, if you want.

• 41:14Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Inside Ben Hat, one of the American advisors, Mark Truhan, watched us get shot down and crash. He saw Tim exit the aircraft. He saw me hanging out of the side of the Cobra, head down with my feet stuck in the cockpit, the helicopter burning. He'd seen a truck driver die in agony in a blazing semi wreck years before and had sworn he would not let that happen again. He raised the sights of his M16 rifle to my body. As he began to squeeze the trigger to put me out of my misery, a cloud of smoke billowed from the exploding aircraft. It obscured me from his view. When the smoke cleared, I was gone.

• 41:54Jocko Willink?

  And that's something that you found out years later.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, he got in touch with me. I got a, he contacted me and said, I think it was a letter. And said, I was one of the advisors on the ground at Ben Hat when he got shot down. I can give you some information about what happened if you'd like to hear it. If you don't, I understand if you, if you just don't want to even go there. I said, oh, tell me what you know. So he shared that story with me.

• 42:14Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable. So I'm going back to the book. You're, you're, this is the state you're in. The pain in my back was intense. It was broken. The fire had burned the back of my neck. I had lesser burns on my face. My hair was singed. I had pulled a shell fragment out of my ankle. Superficial lacerations covered my face and forehead, but bleeding badly. I was a mess, but I was motivated. I wanted to get away. I staggered from the crash site and headed southeast towards Kontum.

• 42:46Speaker 02

  Kontum.

• 42:47Jocko Willink?

  Kontum, as it was getting dark. I had not gone far when I heard helicopters approaching. Cobras came in low, shooting, and you had your little strobe. And so here we go. I held the light over my head, pointed it toward the aircraft. It flashed a few times. The gunner in the lead cobra opened up on me with his minigun. A stream of tracers came right at me, which is, this is something we, we learned in Iraq as well. When you fire off a strobe, if someone isn't expecting or isn't looking for it, it just looks like muzzle flash and anybody that sees it will shoot at it.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  We had blue covers that we put on them that supposedly changed the color of it so it wouldn't look like enemy fire, but no. In fact, I, I ran into that front seater that opened up on me years later, Bentley Hill. And yeah, he shared, he said, yeah, we were out there flying that mission. It sure looked like enemy fire. Sorry about that.

• 43:43Jocko Willink?

  So here we go back to the book. This is a little bit about your attitude. I was cocksure. If anyone could survive this, it was me. I'd been a Boy Scout. Though I was one of the troublemakers in my troop, I'd learned a lot. I'd backpacked 65 miles through the mountains in five days and practiced survival skills. My troubled youth got me suspended from school a number of times, but it also taught me lessons. I learned to street fight, take care of myself. I had boxed, played football, and run track. I majored in forestry, worked cattle ranches, rode Bronx in small rodeos, fought forest fires, worked construction, and was an electrical lineman for Southern California Edison.

• 44:26Jocko Willink?

  I remembered a little ditty my mother had taught me. "The Lord helps those who help themselves." I knew I could depend on its absolute truth to get me through this. "The Lord helps those who help themselves." God, I'll do that. Do all I can. Muster every bit of what's inside me. I'll do my part. I'll do all I can to help myself. So, please, please, do yours. I need your help. I said it again to myself, drawing comfort and strength. "The Lord helps those who help themselves." I would repeat it often, as I set my mind to doing all I must to survive.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. This is, uh, this is interesting going through this in all this detail again, because when I, when I wrote the book, I had to revisit everything in detail like I had not done since it happened to me. I, I had never gone to this depth of reliving those experiences. Um, yeah, and it, uh, it's tough to think back on that. Indeed, when I was writing this, I'd share some of the writing with my wife when I'd come to bed late at night. And after I got a few chapters into this, I told her one night, I said, Melanie, what am I doing? This whole thing is a series of unfortunate events. Who's gonna want to read something like this? And she told me, she said, Bill, I know the whole story. And she said, stick with it, finish this book, because I think that in it, there's

• 45:58Speaker 02

  inspiration, there's motivation for people. It's not just your story. It can help others. And so, in that vein, I say that because it is getting a little emotional as we read through this, and that's fine. But I do hope that some of this is useful and helpful for others. And I grew up going to church as a kid, but I wasn't an overly religious guy. And somewhere around college, I quit going to church altogether. And in the army, the only time I can remember that I'd been going to church was for memorial services for guys, and that was about it. But if you end up in a situation like this, or I would say, any, really, if you think the situation in your life is stressful and is about to overwhelm

• 46:40Speaker 02

  you, you need some help beyond yourself. And, you know, no matter what, and I'm not selling any religion, but I would say whatever your religious beliefs are, you can find a lot of strength in your God. And get close to God, and He'll help you through it. He certainly, I couldn't have done this by myself. I grabbed a hold of that ditty that my mom gave me. I also grabbed a hold of the 23rd Psalm. And when stuff got really close to being blown to smithereens a few times later on in my captivity, that 23rd Psalm was going over and over again in my mind, too. So, yeah, again, not selling any religion, but whatever your spirituality is, you best get comfortable with it if you're gonna be in dire straits like this.

• 47:20Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's interesting that you're saying, look, I'm gonna do everything I can, but I'm gonna need some help.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  Yep, yep.

• 47:30Jocko Willink?

  And, you know, certainly, you know, when you say that other people, you know, will be able to find, absolutely. I mean, just me reading this, I've found all kinds of, not just inspiration, but practical guidance, which, you know, one of the things you just said is practical guidance on, you know, someone that's been through what you've been through, there's so much that everybody else can take away and learn from. And, yeah, that's one of them right there.

• 47:59Jocko Willink?

  Do what you can, do everything that you can, and then have some faith on the things that you can't control are going to work out your way.

• 48:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think that's important too, because I'm thinking now as we're talking, and I don't know if we're going to get to that specific part in the book or not. But early on, I think it was the first night, I got B-52 strikes almost landing on top of me, and I'm beginning to feel that am I going to survive this or not? And I think the answer is, I don't know. But in that answer is, I don't know, and so what? I mean, that doesn't matter. That's not important. I may survive, I may not survive. I'm going to do all I can to survive. So I got to the point where this fear of being blown to smithereens kind of went away. And I just settled into, I'll either survive or I won't survive. I can't worry about that. All I can worry about is what can I do to try and set the best conditions to make that

• 48:52Speaker 02

  survival possible? And I either will or I won't.

• 48:55Jocko Willink?

  You know, one of the similar thing that I always felt was, you know, in Iraq, one of the biggest threats to us was IEDs. And you, they're random. They're going to hit you or they're not going to hit you. And every time you go outside the wire, there's a chance that it's your day. And you know, kind of what I told my guys and the way I felt myself was, okay, I know they're out there. We've done everything we can to mitigate the risk. We've done our planning. We've done our drills. We've gathered our intelligence. There's nothing else we can do to control it, so I'm not going to worry about it.

• 49:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  And I've done everything I can. Like you said, I've helped myself as much as I can. And then after that, it's out of my hands. And the more you worry about it, like you said, well, does it really matter? I can sit here and worry about it, but it doesn't matter. Got to move forward.

• 49:51Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 49:54Jocko Willink?

  Here's, you do a couple of days, three days worth of evasion of the enemy. And now, you're out hiding, you hear some voices, you crouch down, you hide, you know they're people. And here we go back to the book, "A lot of crashing around came from the direction of the voices. I looked up and saw uniformed NVA soldiers pointing AK-47 rifles at my head. They shrieked something and motioned for me to stand up. I did. I was captured. I felt indescribably sick in the pit of my stomach as the world fell away. I'd been struggling for three days to stay alive. I was in miserable shape.

• 50:37Jocko Willink?

  But I had been free and I had options. No more. My soul was awash with anguish. I was no longer a free man. In that instant, I'd become a captive of the Communist North Vietnamese Army, a prisoner of war, another American POW in the long Vietnam conflict. I had no idea how long they might let me live. Or if I was about to die.

• 51:08Jocko Willink?

  A couple of them were shaking. We stood in utter silence for a moment. They glared at me, I glared at them. For that tense instant, I didn't know if I'd be riddled with bullets or be allowed to live. One barked something at me I could not understand. Another joined in, then a third. I looked right into their eyes. I was an American. I would show them the best American fighting man that I could.

• 51:39Speaker 02

  In the pitiful state that I was in, you know, that's the best I could do on describing capture. It's impossible to really convey the full feeling of losing your freedom and being a captive. It's just indescribable. But I did the best that I could. I was in miserable shape. I mean, you read about the wounds that I had. In addition to those, I'd picked up some leeches that I'd been plucking off of my body. My face was covered with blood, my three-day growth of heavy beard was sticking through. Because of my back injuries that I didn't even know till I got released that I had badly broken my back. I had no control of my bowels or bladder for those three days. So I smelled, I was just

• 52:23Speaker 02

  an awful mess when those guys captured me and took me up that hill.

• 52:30Jocko Willink?

  They finally get you to sort of like a camp, sort of the first interrogation camp?

• 52:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I mean, they captured me. The jungle is so thick, they were only a few yards away when I stumbled upon them. And then they, and they had been down at a stream filling canteens, these five young guys that captured me. And they took me almost an equal distance up a hill opposite, and I came into a open area, still had the canopy of the triple canopy jungle, but the bottom was all open. There are hundreds of North Vietnamese soldiers, supplies, defensive positions. This was a major staging area for this battle that was taking place. And as I was trying to get away from, from the battle and get towards Kontum, I stumbled right into their staging area.

• 53:13Jocko Willink?

  And you start getting your, you know, start getting the soft interrogation is what I put down here. A guy says, you know, we found pictures of a pretty lady with your children, your wallet, obviously your family. And you say, yeah, I know you miss them and are very worried, and they're very worried about you. You follow the rules and you will be home soon. You will receive humane and lenient treatment. You will be allowed to go home. And I put that in there because that's a refrain that we hear quite a bit, humane and lenient.

• 53:48Speaker 02

  That was, that was a refrain. They would say it all the time during my whole captivity. You do, you do what you're supposed to do and cooperate, you'll get the humane and lenient treatment.

• 53:57Jocko Willink?

  Of course, you weren't fully cooperative at all with them and what they're asking you. So they're, they went from that idea. So they start stepping it up on you. And you know, here's an example of the things that they say to you. You are a war criminal and the Geneva, Geneva agreements do not apply to you. You have no rights, but we will still give you the deserved humane and lenient treatment. All you have to do is cooperate with us and acknowledge your crimes.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that goes back to your reading of the Code of Conduct that started this off too. Our Code of Conduct was different.

• 54:33Jocko Willink?

  Right.

• 54:34Speaker 02

  It said, "We are bound to give only our name, rank, service number, and date of birth." And the way that was taught and the way we understood it, that was all we could give, was name, rank, service number, date of birth, and if we gave anything else, we had caved in and were cooperating with the enemy. So that was my stance. That was all I was going to give them, was my name, rank, service number, date of birth. You may get into some of the things that took place. I would just like to comment that there was nothing heroic going on at all. I guess a couple of things were going on. I was trying to abide by the Code of Conduct, and I was in a state where I had been near death for days, was very near death at that moment, and was numb, and just almost didn't care.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  It's hard to understand and believe, but almost didn't care at that point. And then I got so angry and aggravated with this son of a bitch that ended up being my interrogator, from his initial soft sell, as you said. But his first words, he showed up, he was the only guy that had spoken English since I was captured, started asking me about myself, my condition, if I was hurt. And so I opened up with him about some of that. But then when he got into what was clearly an interrogation, then I clammed up. I would close these comments now with the fact that he didn't break me in that interrogation speaks nothing to my heroism or ability to resist interrogation. Anyone can be broken. And if this would have continued over time, you know, I'm sure that he could have got

• 56:02Speaker 02

  me to do something with his brutality. Probably nothing that would have given him any useful intelligence, but he might have got me to do something. Yeah, so I was, for that, for that, those moments, on those days of that initial interrogation, I was able to stick with my name, rank, service number, date of birth.

• 56:18Jocko Willink?

  Awesome. Here's an example of that. Is back to the book here, please sign this. He handed me one of the sheets of paper and a pen. I looked at the paper. It was typed in English. As I began to read the words, my interrogator interrupted. This is simply a form that acknowledges your status. We need it so we can begin to process you for release. So we can send word to your family of your status. Please just sign. I read the words. I could not believe what I was reading. There was a blank face place for me to fill in my name. The text said that I was an American war criminal who had been conducting illegal acts against the Vietnamese people, including biocide, genocide and ecocide. I had dropped firebombs and chemical bombs.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  I had killed old men, pregnant women and babies. Biocide, genocide, ecocide? What a bunch of crap. I raised my head and looked into his eyes. No, I will not sign this. There I had spoken. You must. I will not. His agitation returned now. You must. I glared at him. He got up and came at me. He smacked me across the face. You must. He turned to his sidekick and spoke quietly and the man got up. At his direction, two guards dragged me up against a tree, a broad trunk of a tree. I'd been bent over since the crash, unable to stand erect. They forced me up into a straight sitting position and tied me to the tree.

• 57:48Jocko Willink?

  It hurt like hell. I couldn't keep my face from contorting in anguish. Now you sign. No. More orders. They pulled on the ropes to bring my arms closer together behind me. The pain in my back increased. New pain was introduced in my shoulder joints. More demands to sign. More refusals. The ropes tightened further. They moved my elbows closer together. More demands, more refusals, ropes ever tighter, more pain. I was uncontrollably grimacing and cursing. I would not sign. I could never consider signing anything like that. The brutality made me angrier and more firmly set against giving in.

• 58:33Jocko Willink?

  I could have been broken and made to sign eventually, there's no doubt. No man can resist forever. But this interrogator would not bring me to breaking point on that day.

• 58:45Jocko Willink?

  His demands continued, and so did my refusals. The ropes tightened more and more. Pain screamed through me. My anger swelled against this asshole. I began grunting in audible attack against the agony. The guards gave the ropes one huge last pull, which brought my elbows together behind me. I felt a pop as each shoulder dislocated. Pain shot through my torso, up my neck, into my head, and down my back, through my groin, and into my thighs. I've never felt such pain. My vision narrowed, and I nearly passed out. "Sign." I could only groan and shake my head.

• 59:28Jocko Willink?

  The interrogator scowled angrily, turned, and left.

• 59:38Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna continue on.

• 59:44Jocko Willink?

  This is a little bit further on. And he's saying that he's giving you one last chance to sign this paper. And one last chance to cooperate. Will you? I'm going back to the book now. My head hung down, partly in exhaustion and partly in intentional rudeness, not paying him any attention. I looked up when he finished. I saw his sadistic minion standing a few yards in front of me, holding an AK-47 at the ready. "Your last chance." The assistant raised the rifle and pointed it at me. I stared ahead and said nothing. No heroism was involved.

• 1:00:27Jocko Willink?

  I was wrung out, at the end of everything I had to give. I'd been so close to death for so long, was so angry, and so absolutely drained. A faint spark was all I had left. I felt numb, detached from what was happening. I was not resisting, I was just giving in to the flow of whatever was destined to be. That might be death. It might not.

• 1:00:56Jocko Willink?

  I'd seen army training film, an army training film years before showing the mock execution of a Korean War POW. I remembered that scene. The action of the trigger being pulled went over and over in my mind. Click, click, click. Bam! I flinched as the soldier jerked the trigger back, but nothing happened. No shot, no loud bang, no bullet ripping my skull or chest. Nothing. The soldier laughed. My interrogator smiled. "I am done with you. You will be taken away from here."

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was three days of, just three horrible days, losing my freedom, going through that interrogation, um, being thrown down into a pit at night is where I stayed. It was one of their old abandoned bunkers that had about six inches of mud and goo in the bottom. And, uh, and, and that caused me a big psychological issue that first night closed in that darkness that night. Uh, I really had to fight to just keep my cool down there. Uh, with a bunch of, there were centipedes and spiders and rats and it was, it was a mess. So I'd spend the nights down there and come up in the daytime for interrogation, back down in that hole, nights back up for interrogation.

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  So what we read covered a period of three days before he finally gave up on me. And yeah, I, I had no idea what was gonna happen. I just, and even thinking back on it, it's just going through all that, pretty much in just a numb state, um, with, with, with that treatment. Yeah, my shoulders today still cause me problems. I had a son that ended up playing football for University of Washington many years ago. He's gonna turn 50 here, uh, in, in April. So this was a number of years ago. Yeah, in high school, I'd, I'd throw about two passes and that was it for my shoulders. Can't play, can't play horseshoes or anything, but, uh, yeah.

• 1:02:53Jocko Willink?

  You know, so it's something that...

• 1:02:57Jocko Willink?

  Definitely, I've experienced doing these readings. And I've talked about it before, that you know, when I read something in my head, and it kind of, I go, oh, that's, that's powerful. But then when you read it aloud, and you hear it, it's just, it's even more, and it's the same thing with, you know, I know I sent you Jody Midic's, the podcast when Jody Midic was on, and he said the same thing. You know, he said to me, he said, you know, when you're reading it, it's like, it's like I'm hearing my own thoughts or something, you know, it's just, it just, it brought him back. And, yeah, there's something, there's something about that. It's okay, it's like, when it's, when it's, when you're reading it, it's sort of detached

• 1:03:41Jocko Willink?

  from reality, or it's one step further detached from reality. And, and obviously, sitting with Jody, sitting here with you, and, and knowing that this is you. You know, one point that I make all the time, when I cover these historical books, I always remind people that, because you know, people in this day and age, we're used to seeing movies, we're used to seeing, watching TV. And I always say that this guy that I'm talking about, this is a person. You know, this guy in World War II, this is a person. This guy in World War I, this is a man. And so to have you sitting here, knowing that this is you, it's, it's, I don't even know what to say to describe it.

• 1:04:22Speaker 02

  Well, thanks Jocko, and this, this has become an emotional experience for me, but it's important, and, and I think this is going to be an important podcast. I wrote that book, I finished it, it was published last April. I've not read that book since it was published. I mean, it was something to go through and relive all that to get it written. And, and so it's been almost a year, I haven't, I haven't read the book. So we're going into, into, into detail, but this is, this is good.

• 1:04:55Jocko Willink?

  So.

• 1:04:58Jocko Willink?

  You get turned over to some other, some other guards.

• 1:05:02Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:05:02Jocko Willink?

  And they start taking you on a walk. You're walking to somewhere else. And you're in, you know, you talked about the conditioning. By the way, you have a broken, crushed vertebrae at this point, right?

• 1:05:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's a badly, badly broken back. One vertebrae is about completely crushed, damaged to two other vertebrae.

• 1:05:19Jocko Willink?

  Your leg swollen. I mean, you got all kinds of issue and now you're, now you gotta walk. And so I'm going back.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  With no, yeah, they gave me my boots back after those three days of interrogation. No socks, no laces, boots, bare feet. Okay, go ahead.

• 1:05:33Jocko Willink?

  We had a old Vietnam SEAL when I got to SEAL Team One in 1990 and he would run barefoot all the time. And, you know, one day was, hey, hey, sir, why you, you know, why you run barefoot? And he says, the first thing the goofs do, take your shoes. Gotta have hard feet. I was like, okay, I guess I'm running barefoot now. I was thinking, cause when I showed up at SEAL Team One, I always joke about this. I thought I was going to the Vietnam War in 1991 when I got there. I thought, I'm going to Vietnam now, you know, I was that, how you were, but I was a little off, you know, historically. So, that's the situation you're in. Going back to the book, they'd been saying a phrase, so as you're marching with these guys, they'd been saying a phrase for the past two days that I couldn't understand. I thought it was Vietnamese.

• 1:06:18Jocko Willink?

  "Go quick or die."

• 1:06:21Jocko Willink?

  As we pushed up the road, they walked behind me poking their rifle barrels into my kidneys, my ribs, shouting with increasing urgency, "Go quick or die, go quick or die." And then after a while, for the first time, I understood what they were saying. "Go quick or die." They'd been taught one short phrase in English. It was all they knew and they had pronounced it so poorly that it took me two days to figure it out. I moved as fast as I could, but I was at the end of everything I had. I struggled on. And you know, I'm just noticing this.

• 1:06:57Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna reach the end of everything you've had. I mean, you already were there.

• 1:07:01Speaker 02

  Many times.

• 1:07:02Jocko Willink?

  You're gonna reach it again. You just reached it. It's, it's incredible.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  It's an amazing thing about human beings, what we have inside that we can dig down and grab a hold of when we have to, that we don't think we ever could have done it, but it's there.

• 1:07:19Jocko Willink?

  And here's something that helps you. Back to the book, I found myself mentally reciting what I could recall of the 23rd Psalm. I repeated one line over and over in my head. "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me."

• 1:07:40Jocko Willink?

  That wasn't the only time during my captivity that the 23rd Psalm came to my lips.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  Nope.

• 1:07:53Jocko Willink?

  After, and, and please forgive me for, like, I already covered three days of misery. Now we're talking about, and I'm doing it in three minutes.

• 1:08:07Jocko Willink?

  Now, you've walked for multiple days, suffering the whole time, and I'm gonna fast forward through it.

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:08:12Jocko Willink?

  And I'm sorry. And...

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  No, it's fine. I mean...

• 1:08:16Jocko Willink?

  That's why people need to read this.

• 1:08:18Speaker 02

  Buy the book and read it. It's all there.

• 1:08:21Jocko Willink?

  So you arrive at a camp now. We arrived, back to the book, we stopped in front of one cage and the door opened. A guard pushed me in and I stumbled over someone lying inside and fell, tumbling into the ground. Pain shot through me. The cage was about 12 feet wide and 20 feet or so long.

• 1:08:40Jocko Willink?

  It could not have been more than four feet high. Twenty-six prisoners were stuffed inside, all South Vietnamese soldiers. Heat hung in the cage, heavy and stale. The air smelled of filth and putrid wounds. People moaned in a constant dull rumble. The occasional wail was met with sharp shushes and guarded whispers. The doorway was shut and secured. I lay there, thankful I'd survived the journey of the past three days. What would become of me now?

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was my first, that was my first prison camp, uh, the jungle camp. It was in the jungle, I figure somewhere in northern Cambodia where the US wasn't operating anymore. And it was a, uh, yeah, a camp of, of many cages, about 300 prisoners in that camp, all South Vietnamese that had been captured in this offensive, one other American who I would meet later. And, uh, yeah, put in one of those cages.

• 1:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. My broken back screamed every time I tried to lay down, tried to lie down, with my feet in the stocks. So they put your feet into stocks, wooden bamboo stocks. There was no way I could lay on my side. I couldn't lay straight back, so I sat upright in the dark in agony. I thought of my family, thought of my day, of where I'd been, where I was now, and what might lie ahead. I hurt badly. Still, I had hope. I can live this way. I can do this. I can survive. I will survive. I sat there, thoughts drifting across the landscape of my life, shaped by these extraordinary

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  circumstances. Eventually, I fell asleep, sitting upright that night, dreaming of what might become of me. I jolted awake. Something scampered across my legs. Something was on my feet. Something small, cool, and wet touched my arches and soles. Little rat noses poked and sniffed at my feet. Tiny teeth gnawed my pulverized, raw flesh. My arms swung without command as I batted a large rat off my lap. Others scurried away. I screamed inside, lips pressed tightly shut, a muffled shriek of terror. I thrashed. My legs flailed, but went nowhere.

• 1:11:06Jocko Willink?

  I wiggled my feet as well as I could in the socks and got the rats off. They fled into the night, only to return when I fell back asleep. They would return to torment me nearly every night in that jungle prison.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't like rats to this day. Some of my kids just mess with me. I'll just bring up rats or they mention rats. I hate rats from that experience. And that's not the beginning or the end of the rat experiences in prison. One thing that you did mention, though, that I'd like to highlight is hope. There was a phrase in there that I wasn't going to give up hope. Hope is such a powerful thing. It's there for all of us. We just need to grab a hold of it and hold it tightly. Hope was all I had for much of my time in captivity.

• 1:12:02Speaker 02

  Hope of surviving and in that survival of getting back to my two young kids. Those two kids really played such a role in having me survive. My son, when I went over there, was four and a half years old, a little over four. My daughter was newborn. But when things would get really, really tough, I'd think of those kids. And however bad it was, I had to endure it to do my best to survive and get home to those kids.

• 1:12:30Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I definitely, that's one of the things that I specifically highlighted, you know, was I can live this way, I can do this, I can survive, I will survive. I still, I had hope. And I read it just the way you just explained it. It hit me that hard. Back to the book. We sat for a few more hours. My cage mates, all Vietnamese soldiers, appeared a ragtag crew. Almost everyone had been wounded, some gravely. Filth covered their tattered uniforms. The whole place stunk of sweat, blood, infection, feces, and urine.

• 1:13:13Jocko Willink?

  We were all hurting, and some would die. Some cautiously whispered to their neighbor. Most, like me, just sat and stared. That's what I did. I sat and stared at them, sitting and staring at nothing. I wondered if I would go crazy here. Would I die here? What would happen first? Insanity or death? I snapped back to what little grasp I had on reality. Hold it together. Focus. Spence and Vicky, we'll hike, we'll play. Get back home for those kids. You can do it. You can endure.

• 1:13:50Jocko Willink?

  I couldn't allow my thoughts to drift in dark directions. I forced myself into logical, structured thinking. I began planning a hiking trip with my family, a back trip, backing trip into the woods. I planned the route, the equipment loads for each. They'd be feather light for Vicky, a little more for Spence and Amy. I'd carry most of it. We'd eat dehydrated food, cooked around a small campfire. Delicious.

• 1:14:20Speaker 02

  I'll tell you, dehydrated food then sounded awfully, awfully good. That was, that was a gourmet meal. And, and I did that. I got back from my captivity. I spent some, and maybe we'll go into this later and I won't get all the details of hospitalization and medical and all that. But when I got released from the hospital, finally, uh, took my family on vacation. Any guesses on what the first thing I did on that vacation?

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Tell me.

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Drove to the Olympic Peninsula and took my family backpacking.

• 1:14:51Jocko Willink?

  You're a hard man.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

  The Olympic Peninsula. I, I love, and I'm glad that I, I did. I mean, I always enjoyed the wilderness and the woods and, and, and I would have been in much worse shape in captivity if I, if I hadn't. Uh, but since then I've, I've loved the wilderness and the woods even more. I mean, I love every day, every beautiful day on God's green earth, uh, but love the wilderness in the woods. We were assigned to Panama for a time. I don't know if you've been down there for jungle school. And when one thing, my, my older son, the little four and a half year old boy was, was an adult by then, uh, we backpacked, well, we did a three day journey across the east of Panama, somewhere where nobody ever did. We just picked someplace, went from the Atlantic side or the Pacific side. Uh, we did mountain bikes first, then we backpacked, staying in the jungle until we got to the Rio Indio, uh, and it was dry season.

• 1:15:36Speaker 02

  We didn't plan it very well because we had to hike way down the Rio Indio before there was enough water to hire a guy on a Cayuga canoe to take us out to the ocean. So, you know, even, and that was just before my retirement, but I, I've always loved the wilderness, loved the jungle and, uh, yeah, I don't know how we got on that thing, but okay, back, back to the book.

• 1:15:53Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's awesome. And one of the things that I, again, I specifically highlighted was the, the fact that, you know, you, you, you would be drifting in these dark directions and you would force yourself. And I talk about that too, you know, I say mind control, not mind control like, hey, we're gonna control your mind, but control your own mind.

• 1:16:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Jocko Willink?

  And put your own thoughts in there.

• 1:16:13Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:16:13Jocko Willink?

  You can do that. And people just need to learn how to do it. Instead of when you start drifting off in the wrong direction. Control your thoughts, get mind control. And I love the fact that you did that with such, with such authority and power over what, over what your brain was thinking.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's an important message. There's a much overused phrase, are you a half glass, half empty or a glass half full kinda guy? Uh, I, I really would advocate for you have to be a glass half full kinda guy to survive. And I think I might carry that argument further. If you wanna have a happy, full, enjoyable life, you damn well better be a half glass full kinda person. Uh, if you're, if, I mean, there's enough problems and difficulties in life. If you wanna go for the dark side, it's, it's there, you can go to it. Uh, but there's enough positive, wonderful things, uh, that yeah, grab that bead of hope and, and go for it.

• 1:17:06Jocko Willink?

  Absolutely. Back into the camp and back into the book, the camp provided a miserable existence on the edge of madness. All was filth and disease and suffering. Moans and wails of pain and anguish cried from the enclosures as we walked by. I caught glimpses of sick and wounded men inside cage after cage, their eyes with white orbs of desperation peering from grimy faces through the din of the gray world inside. And now you're back in the stocks, sitting there wounded in stocks in a bamboo cage in an unknown jungle prison camp with death all around me. I began to wonder, how long can I endure this?

• 1:17:51Jocko Willink?

  Then my voice said out loud, as long as it takes.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  Incredible. And here you meet, in this prison camp, you meet Wayne.

• 1:18:08Speaker 02

  Wayne Finch, yeah, the other American who was held prisoner. He'd been captured March, April, May, a couple of months before me.

• 1:18:16Jocko Willink?

  And you, Wayne, the crew, now you're gonna get put on a long march. They say, "We're gonna move you out of this prison camp." Do you know you're going to Hanoi at this point?

• 1:18:27Speaker 02

  No, no, they pulled me out of my cage and I found myself in the center of the camp with a group of 25 South Vietnamese prisoners. I think they were all, they were all officers, myself and Wayne. And they told us they were going to move us to a new camp and the communist camp commander was running at the mouth and one of the South Vietnamese officers was translating for us. "They're gonna move us to a new camp where conditions would be better." I mean, in this camp, people were dying almost every, every day. "Conditions would be better, we'd get medical care, we'd get letters from home, but it would be a very difficult journey. It could last for as long as 11 days and we should try very hard to make it." That's what we were told. Now, the "try very hard," the 11 days, I guess, was registering in my mind.

• 1:19:12Speaker 02

  The "try very hard to make it" really didn't fully register until we actually set out marching. By this time, my ankle wound was very infected, my leg was very swollen. It was so painful just to take a step and yet I was having to take step after step after step. And as I got into that march, I was wondering how I was gonna get through the first day. I didn't think I could do it. I didn't know how I could possibly walk for, for a day through the jungle. They, they had us tied loosely together, had our arms tied loosely behind our backs, no shoes this time. This was barefoot and off we went. Somehow I made it through that first day and the day after that, and the day after that. The trip turned out to be not 11 days to a new camp somewhere in Cambodia or even Laos

• 1:19:57Speaker 02

  or back into Vietnam. That trip took over three months and I did end up in Hanoi at the end of that trip. That journey cost the lives of, of six of the South Vietnamese prisoners and Wayne, the other American, died before we got to Hanoi. And I damn near died a number of times and that's all in, in the book. But by the grace of God, I, I survived and, and made it and, and got all the way to Hanoi.

• 1:20:28Jocko Willink?

  He also

• 1:20:31Jocko Willink?

  got to know some of the Vietnamese, South Vietnamese soldiers, one of them Lieutenant Nguyen Dean Zhang, is that right?

• 1:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's very good.

• 1:20:40Jocko Willink?

  Zhang?

• 1:20:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, Zhang.

• 1:20:41Jocko Willink?

  Zhang.

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  Lieutenant Zhang.

• 1:20:42Jocko Willink?

  Zhang. And he was, you know, obviously you formed a really good relationship with him.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:20:50Jocko Willink?

  Here we go back to the book. We trudged out of the

• 1:20:52Speaker 02

  Let me, let me interject one, let me interject one thing, because this is fascinating to me. It's always been. Well, I'll come back to it. Let me see where you're going to go with the conversation. Are you going to get my relationship with him?

• 1:21:04Jocko Willink?

  And? Yeah.

• 1:21:04Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:21:05Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:21:08Jocko Willink?

  We trudged out of the valley up onto a rising ridgeline. There wasn't much talking. When we began to climb up the steep, long trail, I was already exhausted. I had to push hard to make every step. My swollen, infected ankle throbbed with pain. I wondered, is anyone else having this much trouble? How long am I be able to keep going? Only then did the words of the lead guard really hit me. As long as 11 days, try very hard to make it. My being revolted. My being revolted. 11 days of this? How the hell am I going to be able to do that? In two seconds, I answered, got to.

• 1:21:47Jocko Willink?

  As long as it takes, reach down deep, gotta go, keep going, God help me. Wayne was stoic. He was in better shape than I was, but still it had to be tough for him. He just bore down and put out what was needed to keep on going. Some of the other prisoners did as well. Many like me had trouble. A number complained and a few cried. Other prisoners berated them. A couple of them fell down and whimpered and the guards yelled at them, slapping, kicking and hitting them with rifle butts until they got up. I thought this is going to be a long 11 days.

• 1:22:26Jocko Willink?

  And this is just continuing way past eleven days. You're now just beyond that. Continuing with the story. As the days continued, I became weaker and lost weight. Fevers followed waves of shivering chills. Might be malaria. I suffered from diarrhea, probably dysentery. My festering ankle wound hurt more. The swelling grew worse, aggravated by the journey. Leeches plagued me, sucking my blood and adding infections of their own. My right leg became a heavy, painful mass that I dragged along the trail. I must have been a sight. Though my wounds placed me in a worse situation, Wayne was sick and deteriorating too.

• 1:23:09Jocko Willink?

  He had some sort of jungle fever and lost his appetite. He quit eating regular rice, preferred only the crispy layer that formed right next to the surface of the cooking pot, what the Vietnamese called "com chay" or fire rice. Zahn was having troubles too. Injuries from his chute down, decline from months in captivity, poor diet, disease, and the daily toll of this horrendous march north. Every step of the way, our personal demons threatened our physical ability and mental willingness to press on. Everyone suffered. We looked like the walking dead, struggling to survive each agonizing mile of that march. Most of us stoically faced the challenges that beset us.

• 1:23:54Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes selfishness and self pity erupted and tempers flared. Pain and suffering took its toll. The senior ranking prisoner in our group was Pham Van Thanh, a major in the South Vietnamese Army. He tried his best to be a leader for the twenty-five South Vietnamese officers and two American helicopter pilots under the most trying conditions. The enemy gave him no authority to lead. I had a lot of respect for what Thanh tried to do. I felt the frustration he had to endure. Morale sunk lower and lower. Bickering grew rampant. Prisoners died. Thanh was senior, but most dismissed his efforts as they struggled to survive.

• 1:24:38Jocko Willink?

  And now there's a prisoner that goes down on the trail.

• 1:24:42Jocko Willink?

  The guards yelled back and forth at each other. They ranted at the prisoner lying on the ground. They barked orders to the rest of us. I didn't understand any of it. Zahn said softly but earnestly to Wayne and me, "Keep walking, no stop." We continued. One guard stayed with the prostate prisoner where he lay. We walked on. After a short while. Bang. One shot.

• 1:25:09Jocko Willink?

  Sometime later, the guard caught up. A dull sense of disbelief and shock overcame me. I had no doubt what had just happened.

• 1:25:20Jocko Willink?

  I kept walking as I cried. It was clear. If you could not march,

• 1:25:29Jocko Willink?

  you would die.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, that message really settled into my mind at that point. And I knew if I ever got to the point where I couldn't march anymore, that that would probably happen to me as well.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  The aside that I wanted to say about Sung was, and it was mentioned, Sung was a Vietnamese Air Force pilot. He was young and strong, and in my mind, he was a lot bigger than he was because he's still a short statured Vietnamese. He was the A1 pilot that I saw shot down on my way to Ben Hett that I asked for permission to go help rescue. We put that together shortly after we started that march north of, you know, what he was flying, where he was when he was shot down. I said, "My God, we were shot down the same day."

• 1:26:20Jocko Willink?

  And that's why, that's one of the reasons I included that piece because it was such a coincidence or fate that you guys were, that was him. There you were.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  And he turned out to be such a good friend and I owe my, well, I owe my life to several people. Wayne Finch and Sung especially for what he did for me.

• 1:26:44Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book. The journey was a nightmare, a horrid, soul-wrenching nightmare. It grew worse. Others fell out and died. Each step, every day racked my body with pain. My infections became worse. Disease was taking me.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  I knew I was sliding closer to death, but I kept fighting as hard as I could. To keep my spirits up, I continually thought, continuously thought of my family, of things I would do with Spencer and Vicky when I got home. Thinking of those two kids gave me strength, always bolstered my hope. My leg was now swollen to twice its normal size. Dark-colored, filled with pus. Long splits formed in the skin. Pus and bloody, stinking fluid oozed from the cracks. I dragged it along like a sodden club. Every movement lashed me with searing pain that kept my face contorted. I shrieked a silent cry within. Pain burdened a blackened scar deep in the center of my soul.

• 1:27:46Jocko Willink?

  Gangrene set in. My bloody dysentery worsened. I had chills and fevers. I would find out later that I had three different kinds of malaria.

• 1:27:58Jocko Willink?

  Each morning, I fought a battle to stand.

• 1:28:03Jocko Willink?

  And with all that going on,

• 1:28:07Jocko Willink?

  I tried to maintain a sense of humor. It was hard, but it was necessary. Spirit is the most important factor in survival. A sense of humor, even under the worst conditions, helps maintain spirit, and in spirit lives hope. I was determined to survive. Still, I owed so much to Wayne and Zan. They helped me through the worst and were always concerned about me. They did all they could to help me. Zan especially helped me remain positive, to be hopeful. As bad as things ever got, I never gave up hope. I mustered all my will each day, just to wake, stand, and take a step.

• 1:28:51Jocko Willink?

  Then I fought hard for the remainder of the day to keep going, moving along the trail. I could barely walk, but somehow I did. I survived each day to open my eyes in the morning to the gift of one more dawn. The realities of my miserable world were clear. Death, our constant companion stalked us, waiting for us to give in to its relentless temptation. That would be the easy thing to do. In normal life, you have to take some overt action to die. You have to kill yourself. As a prisoner of war, under these circumstances, that is reversed.

• 1:29:32Jocko Willink?

  You have to reach deep within yourself and struggle each day to stay alive. Dying is easy. Just relax. Do nothing. Give up. And peacefully surrender. Stop gagging down food. Stop struggling to walk. Stop fighting. And you will die.

• 1:29:57Jocko Willink?

  Many did.

• 1:30:03Jocko Willink?

  So that's an incredible paradox that you point out there.

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's something that I saw, because it is, I mean, if you give up, then you just die. You stop eating and you die. It's hard to stay alive, and you need something to motivate you to stay alive. And I had it. I mean, I can't talk enough about those two kids. And when they listen to this, yeah, it's often hard to keep from getting very emotional. But those two little kids are probably the single most important reason that I survived, along with a lot of other things that helped. And that little four-years, four-and-a-half-year-old boy will celebrate his 50th birthday in April.

• 1:30:55Jocko Willink?

  And you'll be there with him, I hope.

• 1:30:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:30:58Jocko Willink?

  Beautiful.

• 1:31:02Jocko Willink?

  I think we're getting to the low point here. The worst day of my life came a few weeks into this trip. I fought hard to continue the march, but I faltered. I dug deep inside myself for strength. There was nothing there. I dug deeper, I staggered on and faltered again. I struggled more, I reached deeper yet, I prayed for more strength. There was none.

• 1:31:28Jocko Willink?

  I collapsed. I got up and stumbled along. I collapsed again and again, and I got up again and again. I fought, fought with all I had in my body, heart and soul.

• 1:31:41Jocko Willink?

  I collapsed and couldn't get up. I could not will myself up. I was at the end of my life.

• 1:31:50Jocko Willink?

  The guard looked down on me. He ordered me up. He yelled at me. I could not.

• 1:31:56Jocko Willink?

  It was done. I knew my life was ended. Here, on this miserable muddy jungle trail. It was over.

• 1:32:07Jocko Willink?

  Would my family ever know what had happened to me?

• 1:32:12Jocko Willink?

  Then Zhan was there, looking worried, bending over me. The guard yelled at him to stop. Undeterred, Zhan reached down to help me. The guard yelled louder, but Zhan's face was set with determination. In spite of whatever threats the guard was screaming, Zhan raised me up, turned and pulled me onto his frail, weak back. He wrapped my arms around his neck and clasped my wrists together in front of him. The rest of the day, he pulled me along, my feet dragging on the ground behind. Part of the time, he was helped by Lieutenant Hung. Nong Li, a big impish brute, helped briefly, but it was Zhan and Hung who carried the burden that day.

• 1:32:55Jocko Willink?

  It was Zhan who risked his own life to lift me from death. It was Zhan who carried me and cared for me until we completed that long day's struggle at another wayside camp.

• 1:33:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I definitely owe him my life. Absolutely, absolutely.

• 1:33:21Jocko Willink?

  You end up falling into a river as well.

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's the next day when we tried to set out and I couldn't get back up. My ankle wound was so infected, I could barely move that leg.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, three kinds of malaria dysentery, then three kinds of intestinal parasites, malabsorption syndrome. I was just in a bad, bad way.

• 1:33:45Jocko Willink?

  You fall into this river. Back to the book, Zahn and Wayne came off the log and down the high, steep bank to my rescue. They waded into the torrent and pulled me back onto the bank. With Wayne shouting in English and Zahn in Vietnamese, they pleaded for the group to stay at the camp until I was able to travel again. They were ordered away. They wouldn't leave me. Guards dragged them away and forced them across the log bridge at gunpoint. They marched off with the rest of our prisoner group. Everyone believed I was left at that camp to die.

• 1:34:16Jocko Willink?

  So you get left by that group.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  I do.

• 1:34:19Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:34:22Jocko Willink?

  you go to another camp where they kind of let you recover a little bit.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I actually stayed in that camp and for some reason the decision was because I hadn't had any medical treatment to that point at all for, for, for months.

• 1:34:34Speaker 02

  And at that camp with me laid up there, they got the camp medic and came over and I got some shots of penicillin. I, I guess the only reason for this, the decision was we were along the trail and heading north and they wanted to get me to an away if at all possible. So they did give me penicillin shots for about five days running. And as soon as I could stand up again and put any weight on my leg at all, then off, off we went back on the trail.

• 1:35:01Jocko Willink?

  And now you're on the trail to be, you're with one guard at this point, right?

• 1:35:05Speaker 02

  One, me and one guard.

• 1:35:07Jocko Willink?

  Named Zoo.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  Going north, yeah, it's Zoo.

• 1:35:09Jocko Willink?

  Zoo.

• 1:35:11Jocko Willink?

  And you're, again, you're hiking again, challenging terrain. And going back to the book, we continued day after day after miserable day. The journey was taking its toll, stretching my will to press on again. It's like you, you just keep getting to the bottom and finding more. Unbelievable. Each day's trek demanded more than I thought I had to give. I was able to go on only by scraping up the few remaining bits of grit that remained in the most obscure recesses of my heart and soul. I prayed, I commanded, I willed myself to take step after impossible step. That effort itself fed an agony festering within me which swelled and gnawed at my core

• 1:35:55Jocko Willink?

  as week followed wretched week. Malaria attacks and bouts of bloody dysentery tortured me. The pain of my broken back pierced me every day. The soles of my feet were mosaics of raised welts and open bleeding gashes and punctures. Previously broken toes throbbed as I broke them again. And as always, there was the pesky leeches. But I was still alive. And for that, I thanked God.

• 1:36:30Jocko Willink?

  And not only did you thank God,

• 1:36:35Jocko Willink?

  you also still tried to escape in that state.

• 1:36:38Speaker 02

  That was one of the stupidest things I did in my entire captivity. But yes, I, you know, I had that in the code of conduct. Escape, escape, escape. And we had planned, even in that first jungle camp, had planned an escape from there with Wayne. But it was because of my poor condition that Wayne said, let's, well, we're going to wait till you get some strength or this isn't going to work. And then, of course, they took us off on the, on the trip that Wayne didn't survive. Uh, but yeah, so the day that I finally did, I mean, I had an opportunity. You, you mentioned I was with one guard. We'd often travel with groups of other groups of North Vietnamese going up and down the trail. And we were traveling with one such group this day. And I don't know where you're gonna pick up the stories.

• 1:37:16Jocko Willink?

  You can tell, just tell it.

• 1:37:17Speaker 02

  I'll tell part. So, uh, my guard zoo is talking to some other North Vietnamese guy and they're like, and I'm, we're all in a big group. And so they fall behind and I'm still with the main group, but I'm kind of slowing down and the group is moving away from me. And I came around one turn in the trail, one corner, no zoo behind me, no group in front of me. So just in that instant, I said, this is my chance. And, and plus I knew about where we were. Near the demilitarized zone. We were only several miles from the coast. So that's in the back of my mind. I think I could make it. So I just took off the trail and headed up the side of, of a hill with my great escape, which only, only lasted for a very few.

• 1:37:56Speaker 02

  I don't even know if it lasted two minutes, but a, a very few, few moments before I was recaptured. Were you gonna read some of that?

• 1:38:03Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, this is what happened. You do get recaptured. Here's your thoughts. I'm dead. It's all over. Zoo hovered over me, his AK-47 muzzle shifting from the center of my face to the middle of my chest. He shrieked, you, you, why you? His face burned red, his eyes wild in rage, spit sprayed as he screamed at me. This is it. His fingers on the trigger. He's gonna kill me. And then you, I missed the trail. I got lost. He didn't shoot. He pointed his rifle away in a sullen voice. He commanded, get up. You do very bad. You have big problem now. He was shaking, enraged. He motioned down the hill and said, go. Nothing more that was ever done to me. Never heard about the incident again.

• 1:38:47Jocko Willink?

  My psychological assessment is he was so embarrassed and would have been in so much trouble.

• 1:38:52Speaker 02

  Worried, I think. Yeah. Well, how'd you lose your personal? I was talking to some guy and I wasn't, yeah.

• 1:38:57Jocko Willink?

  He's just like, you know what? We're just gonna cover that one up.

• 1:39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was, you know, out of all the guards that I encountered, he was about the worst, the meanest, despised me the most, I think, of almost anyone that I encountered. And lucky me, I get stuck with him being my one single guard that was moving me after I get separated from that group.

• 1:39:15Jocko Willink?

  Was he with you with that original group and then he stayed with you to move you?

• 1:39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, in fact, when I got to that first jungle camp, living in the cages, he was our interrogator there. I almost actually felt sorry for the guy. His English was so bad, it was as bad as my high school level Spanish was. I mean, he just could barely speak English and he's trying to interrogate us and propagandize us and all this. But yeah, so he was the only guard that really spoke any English at all. So when I had to be separated from the group, they assigned him to be the one to stay back with me and move me north.

• 1:39:44Jocko Willink?

  And now, again, fast forward, you're now in a truck. You're now moving in vehicles.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  Okay, we got into North, walked all the way up across the north or to the North Vietnamese border on foot. So we're all the way just north of the demilitarized zone at this point. And then they put us on trucks to move us into North Vietnam. And inside North Vietnam, we'd some nights move in trucks, some days and nights would march, depending on the threat from American airstrikes.

• 1:40:15Jocko Willink?

  And of course, the trucks are these old, you know, Soviet era things with no shocks. And by the way, you have a broken back at this point and it's not like the roads in North Vietnam are in any kind of condition.

• 1:40:25Speaker 02

  No, when we first got on the trucks, I mean, after all this death march north, my attitude was, oh, trucks, this is wonderful. God, thank God. And got on the bed of that truck. It took about a minute and a half for driving down the road in that truck with no shocks, no springs, slam, slam, slam to, yeah.

• 1:40:43Jocko Willink?

  And you literally had a broken back at this point.

• 1:40:45Speaker 02

  I literally had a broken back.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  And, and of course, as you said, I think you described this to your wife as a series of unfortunate events.

• 1:40:54Speaker 02

  So. Yes.

• 1:40:56Jocko Willink?

  Now you're out there and you see a flare in the sky. You recognize immediately, you know what's coming, you know it's an airstrike.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  Well, first two are flying Mohawks up off the coast. We would pick up targets on radar at night of the convoys moving along Highway One inside North Vietnam and we'd turn it over to F-4 fighter jets from the 492nd, 97th Fighter Wing out of Thailand. And they were called the Nightfighters and they'd drop flares and then strike the target. So yes, I knew exactly what was taking place.

• 1:41:25Jocko Willink?

  So you yell out airstrike.

• 1:41:28Jocko Willink?

  And then here we go back to the book, the first F4 screamed down from altitude and bombs exploded nearby. NVA anti-aircraft fire responded. The next F4 screeched toward us. More bombs, more anti-aircraft. I began repeating, "The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For thou art with me, for thou art with me, good God." The earth shook. Our truck banged about as if in an earthquake. Soldiers yelled from other trucks as some were hit. The world shuddered in explosions and flames. Then it was done.

• 1:42:11Speaker 02

  That was our first.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, first or second night on trucks after we got into North Vietnam. Yeah. So not only did I have the unpleasant bouncing around that was extremely painful. Also, I think I mentioned the book got a horrible case of heartburn that night too. So I got all those sour belches going on. And, and then we got that, that airstrike. And again, that wasn't the first or last airstrike that I experienced, but that was pretty horrific.

• 1:42:36Jocko Willink?

  And they hit some of the vehicles that were with you.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  They did and killed some, some of the Vietnamese soldiers. Yeah. And I was by, at this point, when I got right to the border, just before we got on the trucks, I was married up with a second group of South Vietnamese prisoners, senior officer, South Vietnamese prisoners. So our group of prisoners was on one truck, but yeah, other trucks in the convoy got hit and people killed. And luckily we didn't.

• 1:43:00Jocko Willink?

  Now you get into another camp and

• 1:43:04Jocko Willink?

  I'm going back to the book. The guards took us to a small hut with posts enough to tie our hammocks. They fastened the door shut and placed local militia guards outside. We settled in, getting comfortable and resting. The door opened. A guard came in and said something. A South Vietnamese prisoner entered behind him. Lieutenant Hung, "My God, I knew it was Wayne who had died in this camp. Captain Wayne Finch. Wayne was dead." "My God." Hung stared as if at a ghost, astounded to see me alive. He cried. I sat slumped, devastated at the realization that Wayne Finch was dead. My friend Wayne, who had helped me, cared for me.

• 1:43:47Jocko Willink?

  My friend Wayne, who I owed so much. He was dead.

• 1:43:54Jocko Willink?

  Shocked, disbelieving, I introduced Hung to the others. He told us how everyone thought I was dead, how the group suffered on the march north after they left me, how two tall American pilots joined them, how Wayne continued to get sicker, lost hope, and grew weak. I fell into sadness, twisting it into melancholy self-pity, sinking to the lowest point I had known. And that had to be devastating.

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  It was. We had been separated, and when I got to this camp with the new group of South Vietnamese, when we arrived at the camp, the camp commander gave a speech, and I could hear him say "Phin, Phin." And the South, one of the South Vietnamese officers translated for me, said, "Do you know of Phin? There was an American Phin that died in this camp." And I said, "I don't know any Phin." But what I did, what I should have put together with the bad pronunciation was "Fench." And Hung had been one of the guys who helped drag me through the jungle with Sung. And as soon as I saw Hung, I knew that it was Fench. Yeah, they took me to see the grave where he was buried. And at least that rough idea of where we were helped me when I came back to, in my

• 1:45:10Speaker 02

  debriefs, to get that location to the Americans. And eventually, it took a few years, or several years, Wayne's body was recovered and brought back. But that was, that was a low morale point for me on the trip. That was devastating. You gonna go into the potato story?

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  No, tell the potato story.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  Okay, I'll tell the potatoes. Because this is another guy, there are two Vietnamese. I mean, a lot of people helped me, different people, and I survived.

• 1:45:33Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, tell the potato story, and then I'll wrap it up for you. Because, yeah, tell the potato story.

• 1:45:37Speaker 02

  Okay, how we do it on time? We're just going on and on and on.

• 1:45:41Jocko Willink?

  We're good.

• 1:45:42Speaker 02

  All right. Sung had helped me, as we already described, but in the second group of prisoners, I came to know one Lieutenant Colonel Kay Nhim, who today lives in San Jose, California. Still a dear friend. But Kay, when he was captured, had a gold cross pin, I mean, real gold, so it was a very valuable pin. When he was captured, he hid it in the lining of his uniform. And he was gonna trade it for something for his own benefit when he got to wherever he was going to get to. So I'm in the state that you've described. I'm just physically a wreck now, emotionally, mentally in a low. We're being held in a hut. There's a local militia guy guarding it outside. Kay goes to the wall, a thatched wall, and talks to the guy, and I see him

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  hand his pen out to the guy. And the guy disappears. Couple hours later, the guy returns with a small bag and passes it in. In the bag were six potatoes. So Kay had traded his valuable gold cross pen for six potatoes. Had a potato cooked each day for the next six days for me, and I ate it. Kay wouldn't take any of the potatoes. None of the other Vietnamese senior officers would take any of the potato. They were for me. And just, I mean, both the physical strength the potatoes gave me, but even more importantly, just the mental lift that his sacrifice gave for me really brought me out of my doldrums there and gave me the spirit to go on.

• 1:47:09Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable. The, one more thing that happens with Kay. You're getting ready to leave the camp to go to a new camp.

• 1:47:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:47:17Jocko Willink?

  And Kay tapped my arm. "Look," he said. The curious militia guard who'd been so interested in learning about South Vietnam and America, who'd fetched my potatoes, stood there looking like a kid with a new puppy. He came close to the truck, and I leaned against the stake side. "Goodbye," he said, grinning. His simple humanity made me smile, and I said, "Goodbye." Kay saw my astonishment. "He want to learn to say goodbye to you when you leave," I teach him. "He good man." "Yes," I thought. "No doubt he is. There are good men everywhere. It's the governments,

• 1:47:58Jocko Willink?

  the systems, the leaders that are bad. It's communism that sucks, not the people of North Vietnam. They are not so different from the South. Not so different from me."

• 1:48:15Speaker 02

  I learned a lot of lessons on this trip. I learned a lot of lessons about humanity and people. And I do honestly believe we are all God's children. You and I had the good fortune to be born where we were born, in this wonderful country of ours. Others have had the not-so-good fortune. But yeah, I came across good people in Vietnam. And he, though he was my enemy, was one. Sometimes people ask me if I have any hatred for those guys and the treatment that I got. And I don't. I don't. I think they were human beings, not so different than you and me.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  They had their news controlled by their government, their propaganda, plus they were suffering airstrikes and everything else. They behaved the way that they behaved. I guess the one guy I still don't care much for was Tzu, but we'd probably get over it if I ever met the guy. So no, I don't have any hatred. They're just people like you and I.

• 1:49:19Jocko Willink?

  And there was even times, I mean, where you're walking through a village, and now you're in North Vietnam, where what you're just talking about, they'd been bombed, they lost their sons, and they're trying to basically attack you. They're throwing rocks at you. And the guys that are guarding you actually, I don't think they shot at them, but they fired, they shot over their heads to protect you all.

• 1:49:39Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:49:40Jocko Willink?

  Which I found to be...

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  And my South Vietnamese friends, I mean, you'll talk to people who have experienced the Vietnam War, and you get all kinds of different opinions of the South Vietnamese, and good, worthless, whatever. And they have all varieties like we are. There are some that fought valiantly and bravely, like the guys at Firebase Charlie. The people that I was with as a prisoner of war were great human beings. And when we'd get attacked, yeah, the first thing, they put me, they, the communist guards would stick me in the middle, but then the South Vietnamese willingly would form perimeters around me, and then the guards were on the outside, firing as necessary, all to protect me.

• 1:50:18Jocko Willink?

  One time, going back to the book, the guards start screaming, "Be nom hey, be nom hey."

• 1:50:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bonhom, Bonhom high.

• 1:50:26Jocko Willink?

  Bonhom high.

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Bonhom high.

• 1:50:27Jocko Willink?

  Which means-

• 1:50:28Speaker 02

  Vietnamese, "Ba, bi, nom, five, high, two."

• 1:50:31Jocko Willink?

  And for those of you that don't translate that real quick, that's B-52.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:36Jocko Willink?

  The bombs dropped, hundreds of bombs fell all around us, big bombs, nearly on top of us. I knew there was little chance of living through a B-52 strike, but by the grace of God, no bombs fell in our crater. The earth trembled, it shook, it ruptured and heaved. Waves of crushing pressure blasted through us, squeezing, hurting my head and ears. The suffocating pressure was painful, awful, frightening. It stopped, all was quiet. I was dead, I knew it. I felt ringing in my ears, throbbing in my head. I must be alive. Next to me, the officer sat up and holstered his pistol. By the way, you'd, the guy had drawn his pistol and held it to your head to make sure you don't-

• 1:51:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, like I was gonna escape during the B-52 strike.

• 1:51:22Jocko Willink?

  Kay was moving, others began sitting up, dazed but alive. No one could hear.

• 1:51:28Jocko Willink?

  No one spoke. We crawled out of the hole and started walking in the direction we'd been traveling.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, this was in, in North Vietnam. We'd come upon an area of a lot of bomb craters that had been bombed frequently. And then, uh, the enemy shot two anti-aircraft rounds. That seemed to be their signal. Two rounds was a, uh, was an airstrike. And then, yeah, they started shouting Bonhom high and all hell broke loose upon us.

• 1:51:51Jocko Willink?

  Now, you get to Hanoi.

• 1:51:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:51:54Jocko Willink?

  And you get a bed?

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  A board.

• 1:51:58Jocko Willink?

  Okay, a board. You, there's a blanket, though.

• 1:52:01Speaker 02

  There was a blanket. It gets cold in here.

• 1:52:03Jocko Willink?

  And French bread?

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:07Jocko Willink?

  Is that a, hey, you called it French bread.

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  It was, it's, it's like a, a small piece of French bread is what it looked like, but it was just- I mean, it was kinda half rotten and pieces of rock and stick and junk in it was

• 1:52:19Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, even in the book, cuz the fir- when you first talk about the French bread, the French bread

• 1:52:23Speaker 02

  It brought tears to my eyes.

• 1:52:25Jocko Willink?

  A couple paragraphs, or maybe a couple pages later, you're saying, "There was bugs in it and sticks." But when you first got that French bread.

• 1:52:31Speaker 02

  The first, "I was put in solitary confinement in my first prison and I was brought a meal." And now, the whole time I was captured, down in the jungle, we got a ball of grape- a grapefruit sized ball of rice in the morning, a grapefruit sized ball of rice in the evening for our food. That's what we got. Hiking up the Ho Chi Minh Trail, we would, in the evenings, they would cook rice, the communists would, and we would get about that same equivalent, about a ball size of rice. And then we would roll up a ball to eat during the, uh, the journey on the next morning. So it was the same thing, two grapefruit sized balls of rice a day, and that's all that I had. With an occasional piece of manioc, uh, yeah, and maybe some, uh, oh, what the heck do they call it? Bamboo shoot, occasionally, but mostly just rice.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  So I get to Hanoi, I'm in solitary confinement, they bring me a meal. It's a plate of, uh, of, uh, bean sprouts. A plate of bean sprouts with this piece of French bread on the side. And I'm sitting there for a lot of reasons. I mean, I knew that I was in Hanoi. I knew that this horrible trip of walking every single day and not knowing how I was gonna survive through the day, all that was over. I'm here. I'm in Hanoi. Oh, plus they'd given me a bath and gave me a prison uniform and shaved me. I mean, I had not shaved the whole time, so I'd been a prisoner for months. I have this huge beard. Um, and I sat there and they brought that food, and I did, I cried. Tears rolled down my cheeks. I, I knew for the first time since I was shot down,

• 1:53:56Speaker 02

  there was no doubt in my mind, I was going to survive. That was no longer a question. All I had to do was gut out those last however long I was gonna be in Hanoi. They had given me this wonderful food of bean sprouts and this piece of crappy French bread. But it was, it was wonderful.

• 1:54:11Jocko Willink?

  That's, yeah, beautiful. And...

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  Here's, as this continues, you're in Hanoi, I'm going back to the book. I stood in a cell about 12 feet wide and 25 feet long. Six bunks lined up to my right, head and against the wall. Two others lay lengthwise against the wall to my left. The bunks were three by six foot, pieces of wood resting on sawhorses of the same width. Each was covered with a bamboo mat, a blanket neatly folded on one end. Between the bunks on my left, I saw two buckets, just like the ones in my solitary cells. A row of three small window slits, six by 18 inches, opened high at the back, at the top of the back wall. Seven sets of eyes fixed on me. One approached and put out his hand.

• 1:55:00Jocko Willink?

  I'm John Murphy, Captain, Air Force. How you doing? Americans. A room full of Americans. Oh, God bless you. And that's your, you're with these other prisoners and...

• 1:55:19Speaker 02

  I hadn't seen another American since I split up from that group all that time ago on the trail. It was a glorious moment to come out of solitary confinement and be put in a room with seven other guys.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  And you know, this is one of the things that I talked about you as we were getting ready to record. I said, "Look, I want to read your entire book on this podcast because it's so good."

• 1:55:43Speaker 02

  Nobody's going to want to go buy the book now. They just heard the whole, the whole book read to them.

• 1:55:47Jocko Willink?

  And, and, and one of the decisions that I made was, one of the things that you do in here is, this is a book about you, but you do a wonderful and a beautiful job of describing and telling the stories of all these other heroes that you're with. And as a matter of fact, you call this chapter, chapter 12, "In the Company of Heroes", with all these other Americans that, you know, you, you told me on the way over here and you talk about in the book. You'd been in, you were there for, at this point, what, six months were you there at this point, seven months?

• 1:56:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, something like that.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  Some of these guys had been in captivity for three years, five years.

• 1:56:27Speaker 02

  Seven years.

• 1:56:28Jocko Willink?

  Seven years.

• 1:56:28Speaker 02

  And then the one guy I talk about, Jim Thompson, had been a prisoner for nine years. I, I felt, I needed to do that in this book. I've, I had some real mixed feelings about writing this book. I didn't want to do a book focused, you know, this happened to me story and I did all this great stuff. I know I suffered, but there were so many other prisoners from the Southern experience. That's the story I wanted to tell. This, this different Southern experience is different than the prisoners who were shot down and captured in the North. So many of these guys, many, many of these guys suffered so much more than I did, spent so much more time in captivity than I did. Uh, so I do share those stories of those guys in the company of heroes. When I got to Hanoi, got into the prison at Plantation Gardens, I met these other guys

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  and they had the truly incredible heroic stories to share.

• 1:57:15Jocko Willink?

  And, and you do a phenomenal job in the book of, of describing, you know, them, who they were, what they've been through. Bill Gant, Al Kroboff.

• 1:57:28Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:57:29Jocko Willink?

  John Parsells, Bill Thomas, Bill Henderson, Dave Mott. Just, you, you go through the guys.

• 1:57:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, those were the guys in my cell and I don't know if you, I don't know if you caught in there. Out of the eight guys in the cell, four of us were named Bill. That's just crazy. Eight Americans in a cell and four of us named Bill. So I became New Bill. Uh, there was, Bill Gant was an air force pilot, about six-four, six-five. He was Big Bill. There was a Marine war officer who was some prehistoric elderly gentleman. The poor guy was 36 years old. We, we couldn't believe he'd survived. Uh, but he was Old Bill and then we had a, uh, an air force, uh, OB-10 pilot who became Young Bill. So we had four Bills out of the, out of the eight guys. But yeah, then, then the, the others and, and they. Those guys had all suffered too, but then there were other guys in the camp.

• 1:58:18Speaker 02

  Shoot, Dennis Thompson and Harvey Brand, two special forces guys captured Long Bay. Their experiences, so many others, five, five guys from a TV station in Wey who were captured in Tet. I mean, who would think that a TV, radio station, TV station crew would get captured? But they had all of their, their trials and tribulations. And then, yeah, the most was, was Jim Thompson in his nine years of suffering as a prisoner of war.

• 1:58:47Jocko Willink?

  One of the guys I do want to highlight is Colonel Ted Guy. So I'm going to go to the book.

• 1:58:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, our senior, our senior ranking officer. Yep.

• 1:58:55Jocko Willink?

  And, and someone's briefing you, kind of telling you what's going on. And, and here's what, um, here's what Dave says, Dave Mott. He says, "The SRO, that's the senior ranking officer for the camp, is Colonel Ted Guy. He's in the shed up on top of the camp. That's where they've segregated the senior officers and NCOs from the rest of us. He's an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel who must have been promoted to full bird by now. He went down over Laos in an F4 in 1968. He's a good leader and a real hard ass. He runs a tight ship, doesn't allow making any propaganda statements. No one can accept early release. We live by the code of conduct. He's taken a lot of beatings

• 1:59:38Jocko Willink?

  and torture for us. We call him the Hawk." Al Krobath jumped in immediately. "Yeah, and we're Hawks heroes, just like Hogan's heroes on the TV show, only we don't have as much fun." He had a shit eating grin on his face. "He also looked like crap."

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  So that's, I thought it was, um, that's one of the, you know, you, you, again, you go through all these guys and what they've done. And you also talk about, you talk about some of those heroes that, that held the line. And you also talk about another group who I'll go to here.

• 2:00:14Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:00:15Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes I could hear a lot of noise from the other side of the wall separating our row of cells from those on the further end of our building. I could see the top of a basketball hoop. An occasional volleyball arched high over an out of sight net. What's up with that? I asked. That's the peace committee, came the answer. What's the peace committee? Eight guys who collaborate with the enemy. They've been ordered to stop, but they won't. They study communism, do propaganda, make radio broadcasts, even rat on other Americans. For that, they get packages, get to write letters, and can go outside whenever they want and play games.

• 2:00:57Jocko Willink?

  We call them the ducks because of the way they followed, follow the guards around and do their bidding. They'll rot in hell, I said. That they will. The collaborators were but a small but significant minority among us. There were 107 prisoners at Plantation Gardens, and except for the eight in the peace committee, all were patriotic, loyal Americans who resisted enemy interrogations, propaganda, and pressure to sign statements and make radio broadcasts. We resisted with everything we had. And then, you know.

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, tying those guys back to Colonel Guy, I can't say enough about Colonel Guy, and he's passed away several years ago now. But what a, what a strong leader. And, you know, we talk about military discipline and the requirement for it, and officers this and NCOs that and whatever. In prison camp, that discipline was so essential and so sought after by everyone, and we were lucky to have Colonel Guy as our senior ranking officer. He was so tough and by the rules and the code, and thank goodness, because that's what we all needed to hear and to have that standard to live by. Just a great and wonderful human being.

• 2:02:16Speaker 02

  When we got back, you know, there were several who would have strangled some of those peace committee guys, especially some of our special forces guys who were captured with us. But Colonel Guy put out an order, and he said, "This is a direct order. Everyone stay away from the peace committee. I'm gonna take care of this. I got it. Don't you do anything." And Colonel Guy pressed charges against the Peace Committee again and again was overridden. Charges were never brought against them, but what did happen is Colonel Guy's career was was curtailed far before it should have been, but I have the deepest respect for for him as our as our senior officer.

• 2:02:51Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and again, I'm gonna I'm gonna say this again, you go through these stories of of some of the other heroes, you just mentioned Dennis Thomas, Harvey Brand, Bill Murray. I mean, you just you go through these stories and then they're just all phenomenal and you do them such such an honor telling their stories. So buy this book so that you can read these stories because I don't have time to go through them all here.

• 2:03:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:03:25Jocko Willink?

  The one thing I want to point out, though, is going back to the book, we also tried to keep our humor going within the cell and Al and me as the central culprits telling disgustingly bad jokes back and forth. Al was getting a lot better. His nausea was subsiding because he was really sick. His naughtiness was subsiding and his boils healing. Some of the guys exercised to fight the deterioration of their bodies. I couldn't even lie on my back, let alone trying to do sit ups. What I could do was get was try to get into a position to try pushups. I tried once in the jungle and failed. I couldn't raise myself up off the ground. Now I was able to push all the way up once and halfway through a second. Pretty sad for a guy who could do 100 pushups before.

• 2:04:10Jocko Willink?

  I kept at for at it for weeks until I was able to do several as part of my daily routine. And the reason I point that out is because I always say, you know, because people get injured, people come with sickness, do what you can.

• 2:04:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:04:25Jocko Willink?

  And and do what you can, and that's exactly what you are doing. So so important.

• 2:04:34Jocko Willink?

  December 8th, December 18th, 1972, after many weeks of quiet, we got bombed like none of us had ever been bombed before. Air raid sirens wailed, barrages of SAMs fired and bombs poured down. American B-52s had arrived in force over Illinois. Bombs fell close and Plantation Gardens shook. We lay on our bunks, hoping our bombers knew where our camp was. Still, we fell back into a mindset we'd all developed in captivity. What will be, will be. No sense in worrying about something you absolutely have no control over, which is the conversation we already have.

• 2:05:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're not gonna stop a bomb from landing on our head. Yeah, that was the Christmas bombing in 1972 that Nixon ordered to finally bring the communists to the bargaining table.

• 2:05:21Jocko Willink?

  And I, I had to put this part in here, I had to read it. So after those, after that massive bombing, repercussion. So there's a guard that you, that you would nickname repercussion. Repercussion, a guard so named because of his violent outbursts and threats against prisoners, stood against the wall as we milled around the water trough. He spoke some English. Old Bill Thomas walked over to him and said, "You think those airstrikes were bad?" What, the guard asked? "You think those airstrikes were bad last night?" Bill said again. "Yes, bad bombing." "Well, you ain't seen nothing yet. Wait till they drop an A-bomb on your fucking ass."

• 2:06:06Jocko Willink?

  I gasped and smiled. Old Bill, proud Marine. He'd been a pretty quiet guy, but not anymore. We all glowed inside after the bombing. It was a huge morale boost. The bombings went on night after night, not without impunity. B-52s got shot down, their ghastly giant carcasses burning, falling. We wondered sadly about the fate of the crews. We lost aircraft, yet they kept coming. Quietly, we cheered them on.

• 2:06:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a huge morale boost. And Bill Thomas, boy bless his heart, because he was always kind of a quiet guy, but he just let it, let it all out that morning.

• 2:06:39Jocko Willink?

  That's so awesome.

• 2:06:43Jocko Willink?

  Okay, now we're, we're in the Hanoi Hilton, the infamous.

• 2:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, they moved us in the middle of all that bombing attacks. They loaded us up one night on trucks at the plantation gardens, drove around, I don't know, it seemed like for a couple of hours. I think they're just trying to disorient us. We thought they're taking us out in the country because of the bombings. Then they came to a stop and we got out of the trucks and found out we're only a few blocks, several blocks from where we'd started at the Hanoi Hilton.

• 2:07:08Jocko Willink?

  And now they set up like a little movie night for you guys.

• 2:07:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:07:12Jocko Willink?

  For the, at the Hanoi Hilton, a little movie night and they, they set you down for the movie night. You guys are making fun of the projector operator and finally they tell you quiet, no talk. And then the movie starts. Back to the book. The film was of Jane Fonda visiting North Vietnam. We saw an American cavorting among the enemy leadership, supporting their cause. Scenes appeared of her climbing into the gunner's seat on an NVA anti-aircraft gun, wearing a clean white blouse, smiling broadly, laughing, donning a North Vietnamese army helmet with live ammunition at her feet that would later shoot down American planes.

• 2:07:56Jocko Willink?

  In the film, she sent a message to American servicemen, calling us war criminals. She said, "We were following the orders of other war criminals that were like the leaders of Germany and Japan in World War II, who were executed for their crimes."

• 2:08:15Jocko Willink?

  I was stunned. We didn't dare speak out loud, but we had plenty to say to each other when we got back inside our cell. Days later, they showed us some news clippings from American newspapers and magazines. They all had news of war protests. One, one was former US Attorney General Ramsey Clark demanding that Americans stop bombing North Vietnamese dykes.

• 2:08:41Jocko Willink?

  He had been Attorney General under President Johnson during the buildup of American forces in Vietnam. Now he was making statements from Hanoi that it was inhumane to bomb dykes and that we should never do it again. A photo showed him standing beside a dike with a single bomb crater. I knew he did not have an air campaign to destroy the dykes. This was an errant bomb.

• 2:09:04Jocko Willink?

  The war protesters at home never bothered me. In fact, I took pride in fighting communism in this far corner of the earth so Americans could have the right to protest in the streets. It was a sacred honor to defend the right of other Americans to disagree with me or anything within our American system of government.

• 2:09:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I do believe that so strongly. You know, the core of our democracy is not that we all get in line and March 4th, it'll take us to 1984. The strength of our American democracy is we can have different views and people disagree. And the health of the democracy is when those disagreements can be argued and discussed, and then you reach a solution, a democratic solution, and you go forward. That's the beauty of our system. So, yeah, it never bothered me, even during the war. I'd come up, people say, "God, isn't this horrible with these guys?" I said, "No, exactly what I said there. I am fighting as an American soldier to defend the American way of life, which is democratic

• 2:10:11Speaker 02

  disagreement and argument. So, have at it, guys. You want to protest? Go protest."

• 2:10:17Jocko Willink?

  Beautiful. Now, you... I'm just gonna go to the book. We joined the rest of our cellmates and pressed close to Jose Enzaldua.

• 2:10:33Speaker 02

  Enzaldua.

• 2:10:34Jocko Willink?

  A tall Marine. A tall Marine corporal captured a couple of years before. He quietly related what he'd gathered from the broadcast. So, he was a translator, he was eavesdropping, listening to the radio.

• 2:10:46Speaker 02

  He had been a translator. One of the guards was out in the courtyard playing a radio, which they never did. I never heard him. But obviously, there was some important news coming. Says guard had a radio out in the courtyard listening, and Jose heard what was said on the radio.

• 2:10:57Jocko Willink?

  And he says it sounded like a peace agreement was signed and the wars ended. And...

• 2:11:03Jocko Willink?

  You kind of get that confirmed. Back to the book. That afternoon, we were taken to the courtyard with our fellow plantation garden prisoners from the cell next door. Film crew stood behind a couple of big old funky cameras set up on tripods. We stood in rows as instructed, waiting for whatever might come. An order passed through the ranks. Hawk says if it's good news, no reaction, no smiles, no shouting, nothing for propaganda.

• 2:11:29Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:11:29Jocko Willink?

  I love that. He's just hard to the end.

• 2:11:34Jocko Willink?

  And then Duck, who's the camp commander, he says, he looks up and says, "The peace agreement is signed. You all go home." He waited for us to cheer. Nothing. He looked apologetically at the film director, then back to us with a hint of the scowl. And he goes through the whole, the whole points of what the peace accord has in it.

• 2:11:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:11:59Jocko Willink?

  And as he read the remaining highlights, all faded into a dull drone. I'd heard the most important one to me. "The war's over. We're going home within 60 days. I made it. Thank you, God." We went back to our cells.

• 2:12:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, that was amazing. Well, Ansel Dua getting the heads up. And then we confronted the guards the next morning and they denied, "No, no, no, no." And but yeah, then that afternoon, we got let out in the courtyard and got the agreements read to us. And what a, what a tremendous feeling. But it was a tremendous feeling and then stopped just short there because we weren't home yet and we weren't going to believe it until it happened.

• 2:12:41Jocko Willink?

  And you still had 60 days.

• 2:12:44Jocko Willink?

  60 days and they actually consolidate other prisoners now.

• 2:12:47Speaker 02

  Right. They started doing releases earlier on and it was supposed to be the longest held and most seriously injured that got out first. And then the releases were going to be spaced out in several groups over a period of 60 days.

• 2:12:58Jocko Willink?

  Back to the book here. After the new group joined us, we'd hear god awful shrieks in the middle of the night. I thought it might be Ted Gostis, an intelligence officer captured in at Hue in 1968. He'd been hung from ropes, denied water, severely beaten for extended periods, bashed in the head with an AK-47 and kicked in the stomach in an effort to gain valuable intelligence he never revealed. Gostis was now a physical wreck who'd been driven to the precipice of insanity, sometimes dangling dangerously over its edge. But it wasn't Ted who was screaming in the night. It was Jim Thompson. Jim kept to himself.

• 2:13:41Jocko Willink?

  He was hard to get to know, but in time, he began to open up to me and share some things about himself. He was only 39 years old and god, he looked like hell. He'd been through more shit for a longer time than any other American soldier in history.

• 2:14:02Jocko Willink?

  And nine years, and you do a beautiful job of recounting the story that he told you. So this is the first person, the first person report of, of what happened. And again, it's an incredible, incredibly horrifying and heroic story that everybody needs to read about. And when he finishes telling you the story of, of how, what he'd been through up to that point, I'm going back to book, "I looked into his eyes and saw a troubled soul."

• 2:14:45Jocko Willink?

  He'd survived captivity for nearly nine years, longer than any other American soldier in history. It had taken a lot from him. "My god, Jim, that's incredible," I said. He smiled weakly and looked down. Prisoner releases began a few days later.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, Jim is truly an unsung American hero. Most Americans don't even know of him. The longest-held American prisoner, military prisoner of war in history. Those, I mean, most people, they don't know much about the Vietnam War anyway. There's not very much taught in our history books or classes. But those who do know something about the Vietnam War, if you ask them who the longest-held prisoner was, they will respond Navy Lieutenant Ev Alvarez. Lieutenant Alvarez was the longest-held prisoner shot down over North Vietnam. He was not the longest-held prisoner from the Vietnam War. Jim Thompson has several months more time in captivity than Ev Alvarez.

• 2:15:52Speaker 02

  So I don't want to take anything away from Alvarez. But Jim never got the recognition, really. I mean, it's been mentioned here and there, but as far as people realizing and giving him the honor that he deserved, never received that as being the longest-held American military prisoner in history. And he's passed away now, regrettably.

• 2:16:13Jocko Willink?

  Well, we will do our best to spread that word on here. And I've actually ordered a book about him.

• 2:16:19Speaker 02

  Good.

• 2:16:20Jocko Willink?

  And I will, I will make sure I spread the word to the best of my ability about his service and sacrifice and heroism.

• 2:16:30Jocko Willink?

  And the way you do it in here is an incredible tribute to what he went through as well.

• 2:16:37Jocko Willink?

  Now, the days go by. They finally pack, get you to pack up your gear, give you some new clothes, put you on a bus, and take you out. And here we go. Back to the book. We milled around for half an hour, talking amongst ourselves and getting no information from the guards. The staff car returned, and we were soon back on the bus, afraid we were heading back to the Hilton. But when we came to a row of derelict hangars, we knew we must be on Hanoi's Gai Lam.

• 2:17:10Speaker 02

  Gilaam.

• 2:17:11Jocko Willink?

  Gilaam Airport, used by enemy MiG fighter jets throughout the war. The bus turned at a shabby hangar with a rickety control tower at its side.

• 2:17:23Jocko Willink?

  I beheld one of the most wondrous sights I had ever seen. Before us was a big, shiny, beautiful C-141 medevac plane parked on the ramp. The American flag and a red cross were painted high on its tail. The words "U.S. Air Force" were printed boldly on the fuselage just behind the cockpit. I cannot describe the emotion that filled me. I can't even imagine. And you guys load up, take off, and here we go back to the book. I was happy yet anxious as the big jet rolled down the runway.

• 2:18:05Jocko Willink?

  Once airborne, we remained silent, absorbed in our thoughts. We seemed to be waiting for something, but none of us knew quite what it was until the pilot came on the intercom. Thought you would all like to know that we have just passed beyond SAM missile range. We erupted in a spontaneous cheer. I was overwhelmed with joy. It was real. We were free. We were going home. Nothing could stop that now.

• 2:18:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, we really, even though we didn't consciously know it or talk about it, we didn't have the feeling that we were home free until that moment when the pilot came on and said, because yeah, the missiles couldn't shoot us down, we're on our way, heading to the Philippines.

• 2:18:59Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna again skip through, we're almost, we're running a little long on time, and, but one of the things I wanted to point out in here is that you got back, you're going through, you're in the hospital, you're going through some of your recovery, and you get asked to talk a bunch, hey, can you come talk to this group, talk to that group, and you're saying, no, I don't want to talk to you, don't want to talk to anybody, don't want to talk to anybody, and finally...

• 2:19:27Jocko Willink?

  You get asked one more time and I'll go to the book. I just want to ask you please to consider one last time. This group is the Baton Corregidor Survivors Association and they really want one of the returned Vietnam POWs to talk to them at their gathering tonight. You're the only one still here. I was blown away. Wait a minute. These are POWs who survived the Baton Death March in World War II and they want to hear about me after what they've been through? And of course you agree to do it. And this is the part that I wanted, especially the vets, because a lot of vets listen to this. By giving me an opportunity I couldn't refuse. They made me come out of my shell and speak publicly about what I'd been through. They

• 2:20:12Jocko Willink?

  opened the door to what would become the greatest therapy possible to help me deal with all that had happened to me. Many of my friends who have not been able to talk about what had happened to them have not readjusted well. Several still have major psychological issues haunting them. A couple of days later, I got an invitation to speak to a high school assembly, which I accepted. In the weeks and months ahead, I'd be asked to talk to various groups and I agreed to do as many as I could. I strongly believe that the opportunity to share my experience has been one of the principal reasons I've been able to readjust and deal with life as well as I have. That coupled with my faith in God, love of family, and my inherently

• 2:20:57Jocko Willink?

  optimistic nature.

• 2:21:02Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, yes. I can't. That is probably the greatest bit of advice that comes out of this book. I mean, I came back. I didn't want to talk to anybody. I didn't think anybody could understand what I had to say. And I think many vets have the same feeling. You know, just leave me alone. I will get through this and plus, you don't know what I've experienced and you can't understand if I try to tell you about it. First of all, they can understand to a degree. No one will ever be able to understand everything that you've been through, but they can understand to a degree and they do want to listen. Okay, that's the receiving end. For you to be able to share your experience, and for me, over the years, to share my experience

• 2:21:47Speaker 02

  again and again and again, and even to write this book, as painful as that process was, is a therapeutic process. It's a healing process, to be able to talk about what you've experienced. And if you think you have demons in your mind, share those demons too. Talk about it. It certainly has helped me. I'm doing well. I've been through a lot. I'm doing well. And I think a huge part of that reason is, "Thank you, survivors of Botanic Rigor, because I couldn't say no to you." And by doing that, it got me started talking about my experience.

• 2:22:24Jocko Willink?

  Totally agree. I totally agree. It's beautiful advice.

• 2:22:31Jocko Willink?

  And to close out the story here, you say in the book that you greet your children at the time, you greet your children every day with, "Good morning. It's a beautiful day." And you explain why you do that in the book. And I quote, "I truly believe that every day God has given me on this earth since I came home from captivity is a beautiful day. It doesn't matter if it's raining or snowing, windy or calm, hot or cold, sunny or overcast.

• 2:23:14Jocko Willink?

  Every day is a gift. Every day is beautiful."

• 2:23:24Jocko Willink?

  And that is certainly something that I learned in war, not as vividly as you did by any stretch, but definitely something that I know to be true, and it's something that I talk about all the time here, that when you see that darkness, the light is much more beautiful.

• 2:23:51Speaker 02

  It is.

• 2:23:54Jocko Willink?

  And you know, you put together in this book, um, some eight, you call the eight steps to survival in a POW camp.

• 2:24:04Speaker 02

  And those I wrote right after I, or shortly after I got back. I mean, the book was written just in the last several years, but those eight steps for survival, I put those to paper shortly after I returned.

• 2:24:14Jocko Willink?

  And what I love about these is as, as I read through them here, they're not just for survival in a POW camp. They're for life. They're for life. They've been tested in the absolute harshest of conditions in a POW camp, but they can be applied to life. And, and it's actually things I talk about all the time. And it's amazing that, that they are so much alignment. Number one, eat. Sounds simple, doesn't it? But when you've got to force down nothing but plain boiled rice, day after day, month after month, eating becomes a difficult

• 2:24:51Jocko Willink?

  chore. Some found death easier. Now, how does that apply to life for me? Eat. Eat the right foods. Eat healthy foods. Boom. Done. You want to stay healthy. Next one, practice personal hygiene. When you are sick and starving, it's hard to motivate yourself to keep your body and surroundings clean. Do the best you can with what you have. Filth leads to disease and disease leads to death.

• 2:25:28Jocko Willink?

  And again, for me to apply this to life, this is about discipline and this is about routine and this is about pride. And, and maintaining those things. And even, you know, we've talked, one of the stories I talk about on here is the, the Russians fighting the Chechens. And one of the things that in the debriefs and the post operational debriefs, when they lost that first push down there, they said, you know, once the guy stopped shaving, Right. Then they stopped taking care of the weapons and it go, everything goes downhill. So what, to me, one of the things that this applies to, I mean, you're talking about it from a, also from a pure health perspective, obviously. Yeah, but it's also a psychological factor as well. Yes.

• 2:26:13Jocko Willink?

  Number three, exercise.

• 2:26:17Jocko Willink?

  Set up a daily exercise period. Do something. Even if you are in stocks and chains, you can at least flex a few muscles and do some deep breathing. Okay.

• 2:26:31Jocko Willink?

  There is no more excuses ever, ever for not working out, for not doing something physical. Even if you're in stock, AIDS and chains.

• 2:26:45Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, not in a recliner with a TV on.

• 2:26:49Jocko Willink?

  Unbelievable. Do not give up the fight to stay alive. This is number four. Do not give up this fight to stay alive, no matter how sick you are, how serious your wounds, or how hopeless the situation is, there's always a chance you can make it. Take that chance with your deepest courage. Fight for it.

• 2:27:10Jocko Willink?

  And again, you apply this every day. Look at the opportunities you have. I mean, the opportunities that a normal person has. We don't even take advantage of those opportunities that we have. We don't even fight for those. Fight for those.

• 2:27:26Jocko Willink?

  Number five, establish communications with other prisoners. Use your initiative and imagination to make contact with others and then develop a chain of command.

• 2:27:38Jocko Willink?

  Build relationships with people.

• 2:27:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:27:40Jocko Willink?

  Just build relationships with people.

• 2:27:45Jocko Willink?

  Number six, follow the code of conduct. You must know the code before you find yourself in a prison camp. Then you should adhere to the articles as strictly as possible.

• 2:27:58Speaker 02

  And that doesn't mean adhere perfectly, because no one can adhere perfectly, but adhere as close as possible. If you waver, come back to it. Don't waver and think that you've failed and then just cave in and give in. Yeah.

• 2:28:13Jocko Willink?

  And that's one of the things, again, we were talking on the way over here. That was one of the changes after the experiences that you all had is what initiated those changes in the code of conduct to give it some flexibility.

• 2:28:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:28:25Jocko Willink?

  So that, so that people could bounce back from and say, oh, you know, yesterday didn't make it, but today is a new day.

• 2:28:32Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:28:32Jocko Willink?

  And I think that attitude is perfect for everyday life. You fall off the wagon on something, okay, get back to it. Get back on it.

• 2:28:44Jocko Willink?

  Number seven, keep the faith. Faith in your family, your religion, and your country may be all that keeps you alive and sane. Hang in there. You are not forgotten.

• 2:29:01Jocko Willink?

  That needs no explanation.

• 2:29:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:29:06Jocko Willink?

  And number eight,

• 2:29:09Jocko Willink?

  maintain a sense of humor. This is difficult, but both possible and necessary. A bit of humor helps keep away fits of total depression. And remember, depression can kill.

• 2:29:27Jocko Willink?

  So, yes.

• 2:29:30Speaker 02

  And I practiced what I preached. My, my poor family and close friends know my, my very crazy, sick sense of humor, but I, I do have one and I did throughout, and I give a couple of examples in the book where in some very dire times, I would come up with the stupidest humor, but I did it.

• 2:29:47Jocko Willink?

  Well, I've talked about that as well, and we would be in the worst situations possible, and always someone would be laughing about something. And that's what, like you said, that's what keeps the spirit going and, and keeps you on the, on the sane side of things is to have fun with it. Is there anything that, any points that I missed? I mean, again, I know I missed a lot of points. Anything else that, that, that you would recommend or you wanted, wanted to bring up?

• 2:30:15Speaker 02

  I don't think you missed anything, Jocko. You covered the book very thoroughly. You know, the, the title is Through the Valley, My Captivity in Vietnam. And I'm saying that because I hope that this book will be of benefit and value to, to others. And that's really what drove me to finish the book. I started it and, and I was wondering why I was writing it, but I, I think when the whole thing is put together, it's, it's a story of hope and the power of hope and how anyone can face very adverse conditions, challenges in life, be they guys coming back with PTSD from, from, from combat, be it just a single mother somewhere with, with problems, others with

• 2:30:57Speaker 02

  difficulties. I think in reading this book, you can come out of it with, with hope and, and hopefully with motivation to, to overcome those difficulties and, and have a, have a full, wonderful and, and beautiful life because it is a beautiful thing. If, if we'll just grab a hold of that beauty and, and go for it and not dwell on whatever negative aspects there might be.

• 2:31:22Jocko Willink?

  There, there's no doubt. And even though I did a, may have done a thorough job, I, I read less than 10%, much less than 10%. There's so much more that you went through that you experienced and the other people that you talk about who went through what they went through.

• 2:31:42Jocko Willink?

  It's a phenomenal book. It's a phenomenal book, Through the Valley, My Captivity in Vietnam. There'll be a link for it.

• 2:31:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:31:50Jocko Willink?

  So you can go to the website and get right and get it ordered. You guys know the deal, do it quick. So you can get a copy.

• 2:31:58Speaker 02

  I guess I should add one thing because we talked about a lot of the negative stuff in the book. It does have a happy ending. The happy ending at the end of this book is Melanie Ross Reader, my wife. And that little love story is in there and how we came together. But she and then the two younger kids, we talked about Spencer and Vicky, but also Chad and Chelsea have brought such a joy to my life and brought this whole journey to a conclusion. So there's the power of hope and there's also the power of love that comes out at the end of this.

• 2:32:30Jocko Willink?

  It's absolutely, it's beautiful. It's a great book. And

• 2:32:39Jocko Willink?

  I can't even begin to express how appreciative that we are for you coming here and sharing the story with us, your determination and your heroism. I could literally sit here and listen to you indefinitely.

• 2:32:56Jocko Willink?

  And so, thank you. I know you have work to attend to and I dragged you out here when you're already working hard. Thanks to you. Thanks to your cousin, Ryan Summers, who actually contacted us through the interwebs and linked us up together. So thanks to Ryan for doing that. Appreciate it. And actually echo, speaking of the interwebs,

• 2:33:22Jocko Willink?

  if anybody wants to support this podcast, is there any way that they could do that?

• 2:33:27Speaker 01

  Yes, a little bit. Actually, one question real quick. What part of your back was broken? Like your lower back?

• 2:33:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, T, L1, T12, L2, all in there. I'm fused. I had, well, we didn't get it all my surgeries after I got back, but I'm all fused together and wired together in my back now.

• 2:33:46Speaker 01

  I was gonna ask, what, what did you eat the whole time? But just rice, huh, the whole time?

• 2:33:49Speaker 02

  Well, until I got to Hanoi, and then, well, I said the bean sprouts was great, but what I found, what I found is they keep that diet for about three weeks running. So I had nothing but bean sprouts a couple of times a week for three weeks. Then we get pumpkin soup, cabbage soup, karabi, and, yeah, and karabi is the only thing I don't really care for since. I came to love rice, actually, but that was partly psychological because I had to eat it. So I, I do truly love rice today.

• 2:34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, dang, that's kind of vegetarian diet.

• 2:34:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. My cholesterol was very low when I got back from captivity.

• 2:34:19Speaker 01

  Okay, dang, okay. Um, yes, interwebs. So, we talk about Onnit supplementation real quick. Um, best supplements in the world, Onnit. You want 10% off, Onnit.com slash Jocko. If your joints are killing you, or if they're, you know, degenerating, whatever, krill oil, I recommend also a bunch of performance stuff, which is, um, like I said, before, supplements a lot of the time can be junk. These ones, you know 100%, they're the good ones. Anyway, Onnit.com slash Jocko, get 10% off. Another good way to support is the Amazon click through that we always talk about. It's basically before you do your Amazon shopping, click

• 2:35:04Speaker 01

  through the website, there's a little Amazon shop banner, click through there, then do your shopping, and then, you know, that it supports that way. Real good. Uh, subscribe on iTunes if you haven't already. I think most people have, but in the event of you not having subscribed already, um, do that and leave a review if you're in the mood. And, uh, we have a YouTube channel, if you didn't know that. Uh, I post some, we post some videos, some Jocko McNuggets, little excerpts of the, of the podcast that, uh, you know, little lessons, if they don't want to listen to the whole thing, you know, two hours or whatever, they can listen to short, short little nuggets, if you will. Anyway, other inspirational videos, put some music to them, you know. Anyway, people seem to

• 2:35:48Speaker 01

  enjoy. But yeah, check that out, YouTube, uh, Jocko Podcast YouTube channel. Subscribe if you haven't already. We do have a store if you're into t-shirts.

• 2:35:58Speaker 01

  Rash guards, other stuff. Anyway, check out that stuff. It's jockostore.com. A little bit more efficient of a process now with that. So basically you get something now. It gets to you way quicker. Long story, but it's, it's solid now. So you, um, yeah, it'll be a good experience. Not that it wasn't a good experience before, but.

• 2:36:21Jocko Willink?

  It'll be a better experience.

• 2:36:22Speaker 01

  We'll say quicker. How about that? Maybe not necessarily better or worse, but quicker. Anyway, jockostore.com. See, uh, if you like any of the shirts or whatever, you know, get one of those. You can support that way. There's some women's stuff on there. There's some patches, rash guards, hoodies, you know, cool stuff. Discipline equals freedom. That's the, the thing. Anyway, psychological warfare. If you're running into trouble, if you're getting, you know, you're trying to work out and you're, you know, you feel weakness like, oh, I'm gonna skip today, or I'm having trouble waking up in the morning, or just maintaining discipline one day, two days, whatever. What you do is you go, you search iTunes, right? Psychological Warfare by Jocko Willink.

• 2:36:59Speaker 01

  Get one of the, get the album. It'll have any weakness you have right there. Jocko will help you through it every single time.

• 2:37:05Jocko Willink?

  Squash them.

• 2:37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, every single time. Hundred percent, um.

• 2:37:09Jocko Willink?

  Effectiveness.

• 2:37:10Speaker 01

  Effectiveness. Yeah, yeah. And yeah, those are the ways to support.

• 2:37:17Jocko Willink?

  While you're clicking through Amazon, again, pick up this book right here. There you go. Pick up this book.

• 2:37:25Jocko Willink?

  Through the Valley, My Captivity in Vietnam by William Reader. It's an unbelievable book. Cover to cover. It's an unbelievable book. So get it. Get yourself a copy of Extreme Ownership. If you don't have it, buy it. If you do have it, if you don't have it, buy it. If you do have it, buy one for all your subordinates, your boss and your boss's boss. Do it immediately.

• 2:37:55Jocko Willink?

  And Jocko Whitey, you can get it on Amazon. You can also preorder if you want Way of the Warrior Kid. Order it now. Order it now so you can get a copy of it when it comes out. Otherwise you're gonna be waiting for it. And that's not gonna be fun. And lastly, if you haven't signed up for the muster, New York City, May 4th and 5th, do it this week. Prices are going up Friday. So.

• 2:38:19Jocko Willink?

  So, so get after it. Come to the muster. And if you want to give us feedback, or comments, or continue this conversation, you can find us on the interwebs, Twitter, Instagram, that Facebook-y, we are there. Are you on social media at all, sir?

• 2:38:40Speaker 02

  I am. There's a, I think it's William Reader Jr. is the Facebook page.

• 2:38:45Jocko Willink?

  Nice.

• 2:38:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:38:46Jocko Willink?

  So, friend or follow William Reader Jr.

• 2:38:52Jocko Willink?

  And you'll connect with the Colonel here. Echo is at Echo Charles. I am at Jocko Willink. Echo, do you have anything else to add?

• 2:39:04Speaker 01

  That is it. Thank you so much. Honor.

• 2:39:08Jocko Willink?

  Sir, anything else you, you want to add?

• 2:39:10Speaker 02

  No, thank you both for what you do with this wonderful podcast. And indeed, it was, it was my honor to be here and be a part of this.

• 2:39:19Jocko Willink?

  Well, sir, that's, I don't even know how to respond to that. Thanks again to Ryan Summers for linking this up. It has been an absolute honor.

• 2:39:31Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for coming on. Thank you for writing this book. Thank you for talking to us today. But more important, thank you for your service to this great nation. Thank you for stepping up and going forward into the fray over and over again.

• 2:39:56Jocko Willink?

  Thank you for your incredible determination and discipline and your unrelenting will. Not only to survive, but to do so with honor and with dignity and with humility.

• 2:40:18Jocko Willink?

  And finally, thank you for giving all of us, all of us, an example to follow.

• 2:40:28Jocko Willink?

  And for reaffirming to us

• 2:40:34Jocko Willink?

  that

• 2:40:36Jocko Willink?

  despite the darkness and the evil in the world, and despite the discomforts and the hardships we face, and the challenges that all people must confront, despite all that,

• 2:40:54Jocko Willink?

  thank you for making sure that we remember

• 2:41:00Jocko Willink?

  without question

• 2:41:04Jocko Willink?

  that it doesn't matter if it's raining or snowing, windy or calm, sunny or overcast.

• 2:41:14Jocko Willink?

  Every day is a gift.

• 2:41:19Jocko Willink?

  Every day

• 2:41:22Jocko Willink?

  is beautiful.

• 2:41:26Jocko Willink?

  Every day

• 2:41:28Jocko Willink?

  is beautiful.

• 2:41:32Jocko Willink?

  And we will remember that.

• 2:41:37Jocko Willink?

  And so, until next time,

• 2:41:42Jocko Willink?

  this is Colonel William Reader,

• 2:41:46Jocko Willink?

  and Echo, and Jocko.

• 2:41:51Jocko Willink?

  Out.