Selects: Frances Perkins: Influential and Unknown

Frances Perkins was an incredibly influential American yet is virtually unknown. What did she do? A lot! For instance, Social Security was her brainchild. And that's just the tip of the old iceberg. Explore her legacy with Josh and Chuck in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability, and it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 0:35Speaker 02

  If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key, and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click Grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:05Josh Clark?

  Hello, friends. It's Josh, and for this week's select, I've chosen our September 2020 episode on Frances Perkins. If you haven't heard of her, that's OK. She's one of the most unsung Americans ever and was even left out of the history books for a while, all because she was a woman. Check out this episode where Frances Perkins gets her due.

• 1:29Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

• 1:38Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles W., Chuck Bryant, and this is Stuff You Should Know, the amazing unsung woman edition, volume two at least.

• 1:50Speaker 04

  No, more than two.

• 1:52Josh Clark?

  What number would you say, then?

• 1:54Speaker 04

  I don't know. But I tell you what, if you want to take a vote on maybe one of the most undersung, while at the same time being most influential Americans to ever live.

• 2:06Josh Clark?

  Neil Diamond.

• 2:07Speaker 04

  You'd be... He was very sung.

• 2:09Josh Clark?

  I know. I'm not a big fan, anyway.

• 2:13Speaker 04

  You would be hard-pressed to overlook Ms. Perkins.

• 2:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:19Speaker 04

  Ms. Frances Perkins.

• 2:20Josh Clark?

  Totally agree. Had never heard her name before, had never even known she existed. But yeah, the more you dig into it, the more you're just like, it was almost a crime that this woman was virtually written out of the history books.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, and if you are one of those people who was unfortunate to not be able to work right now during quarantine and the effects of COVID-19, and you are not lucky enough, but deservedly enough, receiving unemployment insurance, you can thank Frances Perkins for that.

• 2:54Josh Clark?

  That's right. And every single person who's getting a check, as measly as they've gotten lately, is getting one because of this system that Frances Perkins set up. And what's really, I think, worth noting, too, is this is exactly the kind of situation that she got this passed for, that she helped design this for.

• 3:20Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  Because there's a quote, I can't remember exactly where the quote was, but to paraphrase it, it's basically like, we need to always keep our eye on the long term and plan for the worst-case scenario. While, yes, there's a lot of immediate needs that we need, but there's always going to be something that comes down the road, and if we have planned for it, we're way better off. Just imagine how disastrous it would be, on top of the current disaster, if there wasn't such a thing as unemployment insurance. And this is how we found out that we really kind of need it.

• 3:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, it would be dark ages stuff in this country.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So if you have gotten your unemployment insurance check, and it has helped you, thank Frances Perkins somehow.

• 4:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, and we want to thank HowStuffWorks. That's where part of this research came from, and some other places, but notably, and I want to shout this out because this is a library intern at the FDR Library who wrote a paper called Honoring the Achievements of FDR's Secretary of Labor, Jessica Brightman. This is really good stuff, and she's a library intern, and we want to shout her out.

• 4:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she did great.

• 4:29Speaker 04

  Or she was at the time, I imagine. She's moved on from that internship.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  After she turned that essay in, you bet your bippy she did.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  So Frances Perkins was born Fannie Correlli.

• 4:42Speaker 04

  Perkins in Boston in 1880, but her relatives and her ancestors came from Maine. And it's kind of funny here at the beginning of this How Stuff Works thing, it says, she so undersung that even residents of her hometown of DeMarisgata, Maine, didn't seem familiar with her legacy. I think that says more about Maine.

• 5:04Josh Clark?

  All right. They're like, we don't need to help her put on airs.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  Well, then just like, you know, I don't ask, I don't tell, I just don't, whatever. She lived here. Great. Good for her.

• 5:14Josh Clark?

  I want to say also, before the residents of Newcastle bust a vein in their forehead, she's also cited as a native of Newcastle, Maine.

• 5:24Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 5:25Josh Clark?

  And they're right across the DeMarisgata River from one another. I think she's from Newcastle.

• 5:32Speaker 04

  So is this like an Adidas-Puma thing?

• 5:35Josh Clark?

  Maybe. Maybe. Except imagine if neither town knew what shoes were. That would be a pretty accurate analogy.

• 5:45Speaker 04

  Oh, boy. I love the Mainers.

• 5:48Josh Clark?

  So she, yeah, she was, she came from really like dyed-in-the-wool Yankee stock. Her family came over, I think in the 1680s. Her, she had like, her family had built an outpost during the French-Indian War. Her grandmother, who had more of an influence on her, she said, than anybody, had a cousin who she was close to, who founded Howard University and fought for the rights of newly freed African-Americans. She came from like a long line of people who like cared about other people. And yet, surprisingly, her parents

• 6:28Josh Clark?

  were very conservative. They were in favor of, you know, helping the poor, but not mingling with them helping them. Like helping them by like, you know, sending some money or something like that.

• 6:40Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 6:41Josh Clark?

  And they produced a child, Fanny Francis. She changed her name, I think, in, I don't know, her 20s or 30s. She, she was the opposite way. She was like, no, like, like.

• 6:55Josh Clark?

  People are people and they all deserve help and there's a lot of injustice in this world and I want to change it myself. And she's one of those people who actually did enact tremendous change for all the right reasons.

• 7:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, she said, "People are people, so why should it be?"

• 7:13Josh Clark?

  You and I should get along so awfully.

• 7:16Speaker 04

  Which one was that?

• 7:18Josh Clark?

  Depeche Mode.

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Depeche Mode?

• 7:19Josh Clark?

  Oh, baby.

• 7:20Speaker 04

  Hey, that's Emily's jam. I mean, she would, she probably has that tattooed on her body somewhere. And in fact, we're both doing that.

• 7:28Josh Clark?

  You're like, "It's none of my business."

• 7:30Speaker 04

  We're both doing that, that silly, and I never do these things on Facebook, but I have time now, the top 10 most influential albums. And I was like, "Which one are you gonna pick, New Order or Depeche Mode?" For her, because that's a, that's a tough one.

• 7:43Josh Clark?

  Well, I mean, can't, she's got 10 to choose from, right?

• 7:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, but I think for her, those two are so inextricably tied that it was one or the other.

• 7:52Josh Clark?

  I gotcha.

• 7:53Speaker 04

  And she went with Depeche Mode because they were first and that's probably more influential.

• 7:56Josh Clark?

  Depeche Mode was before New Order, huh?

• 7:59Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 8:00Josh Clark?

  I mean, technically, if you count New Order as an outcropping of Joy Division, then they were first.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  Oh, so, well, Joy Division was different, though.

• 8:10Josh Clark?

  It was pretty different. Different enough that they might as well be two different bands.

• 8:14Speaker 04

  Which they were.

• 8:15Josh Clark?

  You know who we need to, to give us the judgment call?

• 8:18Speaker 04

  Who?

• 8:19Josh Clark?

  Is Frances Perkins, who, who apparently would not have enjoyed our banter. She was very much known as like a dour.

• 8:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:27Josh Clark?

  Serious woman, but from what I can tell, that's actually a public persona that she wore to get men to take her seriously.

• 8:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, who can blame her? Because we'll see later on about her, it's no accident that she's lost a history in many ways.

• 8:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 04

  But what she was, also was highly educated. She graduated from Mount Holyoke in 1902, where she majored in chemistry and physics. Even though she made her name in economics, which is means she was a very well-rounded human and had a very large brain.

• 9:02Josh Clark?

  And apparently she had made it all the way through college and in her senior year, I think she attended an economics lecture by Florence Kelly, who was a huge wage justice crusader. And that just changed her life.

• 9:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, big time. In 19, this is post-college, she went to Philly and she became general secretary of the Philadelphia Research and Protective Association.

• 9:29Josh Clark?

  What'd she do there?

• 9:30Speaker 04

  Well, she was in charge of investigating employment agencies that were fake and that preyed on women, immigrant women specifically. And she had to sort of deal with the dregs of society in that job and did so very successfully. And then decided she wanted to keep her education going. So while she was in Philly, she went to the Wharton School of Finance and Commerce at the University of Pennsylvania, because that's super easy and light learning. And then after that, she went to Columbia, where she earned a MA in social economics in 1910.

• 10:09Josh Clark?

  And we should say, like, she's getting all of this schooling, but at the same time, she's also set herself off on a, what's that, like, learn while you work program called?

• 10:20Speaker 04

  Internship?

• 10:21Josh Clark?

  I guess so. That's not exactly what I'm looking for, but yeah, I mean, it makes sense. So she set herself up on a real-world internship program. So while she was in Philly, working for that bureau, she was investigating those fake employment rackets. Like, she was on the ground doing this stuff, like, carrying out these inspections, investigating factories, like, taking notes and like-

• 10:45Speaker 04

  In her early twenties.

• 10:46Josh Clark?

  Yeah, basically, yeah. While she's studying this stuff, she's also out doing and seeing the stuff firsthand that she's learning about, which, from what I can tell, she really kind of digested and held on to, and it just kept driving her for the rest of her life, what she saw.

• 11:01Speaker 04

  I think that's called the School of Hard Knocks.

• 11:03Josh Clark?

  It is, but she enrolled in the Wharton School and the School of Hard Knocks at the same time, which is pretty impressive.

• 11:09Speaker 04

  That's right. And after Columbia, after she got that master's, for two years, she served as executive secretary of the Consumers League of New York. And this is where she really- Felt her life calling to improve wages, improve working conditions, because this was 1910 through 1912, and things weren't great in factories at the time. We could do a podcast on, I don't know what the focus would be necessarily, because we've done labor unions, but-

• 11:43Josh Clark?

  Just labor conditions would be-

• 11:44Speaker 04

  Yeah, maybe so.

• 11:45Josh Clark?

  Eye-opening. But there's, she did, she, this is one of the things she did, there's very few more depressing words than these strung together. She improved working conditions for children.

• 11:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 11:59Josh Clark?

  That was one of the things she did.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  I know.

• 12:02Josh Clark?

  And that was at the Consumers League of New York, and she got there and was like, yes, I've achieved my, one of my first goals, which is working directly with the same Florence Kelly, who gave the economics lecture that changed her life years before Mount Holyoke.

• 12:17Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 12:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So she was one of those ones who said, I want to do this, and then would do it, and then would move on to the next thing.

• 12:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, she wouldn't stand around and wait for the statue to be built in her honor.

• 12:28Josh Clark?

  Exactly. Yeah, exactly.

• 12:29Speaker 04

  Should we take a break?

• 12:30Josh Clark?

  Uh, yes.

• 12:33Speaker 04

  All right, we're going to take a break and talk about a pretty devastating fire in New York City that changed the course of her life, right after this.

• 12:52Speaker 05

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places. Hi, it's Kathleen Griffith, co-host of the Unshakeables Podcast.

• 13:38Speaker 06

  Listen in as Ron and Kelly Moore share their story.

• 13:43Speaker 07

  I'm Ron Moore.

• 13:44Speaker 06

  And I'm Kelly Moore. And starting our own business in our 50s was a little scary, but exciting.

• 13:52Speaker 07

  The biggest advantage was our community. The whole thing about business is relationships.

• 13:57Speaker 06

  We'll say team a lot, not just our internal team. It's the team of our vendors, the team of our clients.

• 14:04Speaker 07

  We help the Veterans Resource Center and we give scholarships. I'm doing this for my heart, for my children, for you, for your children's family. I don't want anything back. And I tell a lot of people, don't give back to me, pay it forward.

• 14:19Speaker 06

  If you work to give, you just see the world differently.

• 14:22Speaker 07

  I'm going to help as many people as we can. I can't take it with me.

• 14:26Speaker 06

  To hear more from Ron and Kelly, listen to The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts.

• 14:43Josh Clark?

  What fire, Chuck?

• 14:45Speaker 04

  I'm talking about the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire in Manhattan, sort of near Washington Square Park and Greenwich, right next to Washington Square Park.

• 14:54Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 14:54Speaker 04

  And Greenwich Village.

• 14:56Josh Clark?

  I think it's a NYU building, though.

• 14:58Speaker 04

  It is, and I tried to pinpoint if that was the building where I actually had my film classes.

• 15:02Josh Clark?

  Was it?

• 15:03Speaker 04

  I don't know. I can't quite tell.

• 15:05Josh Clark?

  We gotta know, Chuck.

• 15:07Speaker 04

  I'll see if I can find out. But a shirtwaist was a woman's blouse is what they called it at the time. And this was a factory that made women's blouses. If you worked there, you were probably a young woman. You might be an immigrant. You would work about 52 hours a week.

• 15:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, I saw 12 hours a day, seven days a week.

• 15:30Speaker 04

  What does that math turn out to?

• 15:31Josh Clark?

  Let's see, 720.

• 15:37Josh Clark?

  Wait, I can't do math out loud.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Well, let's say between 52 and 80 hours a week.

• 15:43Josh Clark?

  No, no, it was way more than that. 12 times 7 equals 84.

• 15:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what I said.

• 15:48Josh Clark?

  84 hours a week, but like even that doesn't sound that big.

• 15:54Josh Clark?

  12-hour days, 7 days a week, just to keep your job.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  Right, so I saw 52. Either way, they made between $7 and $12 a week making these blouses for women.

• 16:06Josh Clark?

  Which was not good even back then.

• 16:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, it wasn't good. And because this was a factory in New York in 1911, they had the doors locked, they had the staircases locked, they thought it prevented theft. If you remember what happened to locked doors and stairwells in our hotel fire episode, the same thing happened here on March 25, 1911, when the Triangle Shirtwaist Fire started because they think of a match or a cigarette butt thrown into a waste bin. And it just, you know, everything in there was flammable practically that wasn't metal because of all these fabrics, like highly flammable. It went up really quick. It's one of the deadliest US workplace disasters of all time to this day.

• 16:53Speaker 04

  146 workers died, 123 of which were women and girls between the ages of generally between 14 and 23. The oldest was 43, but that was kind of an outlier. And 62 of those people jumped to their death in front of full view of New York City, including Frances Perkins.

• 17:17Josh Clark?

  Right, in front of Frances Perkins. She didn't jump to her death.

• 17:19Speaker 04

  No, no, no.

• 17:20Josh Clark?

  So she, yeah, she's literally witnessing one of the turning points in history as it happens, seeing women, teenage girls, jump out of the 9th floor of this building because it's on fire. And not only is she witnessing a fire that will change history, she is one of the people that will force history to change because of this fire.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  The fate or the destiny that that put her a block away from this fire when it happened is it's just astounding to me that she was there because she went on to be one of the people who said this is never going to happen again. And under her watch, it basically didn't. It was the worst that it ever got and it never got that bad again because of the safeguards she forced the state and then later on, other states and the federal government to adopt.

• 18:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, she was already kind of headed down this road anyway. She was already part of the New York State Factory Investigating Commission. And because of this fire, which she, I don't think we said she was just having tea across the park there, ran over and saw this. One of the things she saw, at one point, there were 20 people that had managed to get out a window onto a fire escape, one of those tiny, little flimsy New York fire escapes. And that, all 20 of those people, the thing collapsed and they all fell to their 100 feet to their death, right in front of her face.

• 18:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, we need to do an entire episode on that. At the very least, just to shame the two owners who's, who were just totally responsible for all those deaths.

• 18:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. But this was sort of just the way it was. I mean, not absolving them, but she saw this as part of the bigger problem. Not like, these two owners are responsible, but she was like, it was an indictment of the system.

• 19:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was, but at the same time, those guys were particularly nasty examples of the system. They weren't, they weren't average by any means, from what I understand.

• 19:22Speaker 04

  No, but what was average was the fact that they didn't have fire codes. And she's the person that brought that in. By the time she was in her early 30s, she had called for, and successfully called for exit signs. Occupancy limits, sprinklers, fire escapes, unlocked doors and stairwells, how wide the doorways had to be, depending on your factory floor. Like, all these sort of common sense things. Like, a lot of people saw this stuff happen. And saw this incident that day and were horrified. But Frances Perkins said, "Nope, I'm gonna change it. I'm a woman in 1911, and I'm in my early 30s, but I'm gonna make this happen," and she did.

• 20:03Josh Clark?

  She did. She was appointed to the New York Committee on Safety under the recommendation of Teddy Roosevelt, which says a lot, because that means she'd already made a name for herself in her 20s in New York City politics, to the point where Teddy Roosevelt would say, like, "You really kinda need this woman on there." And then, let's not forget the fact that the operative word here was "woman"

• 20:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 20:24Josh Clark?

  as far as society was concerned at the time. And this legislation that she got passed through in New York, or that she helped get passed through in New York, like I was saying, it became a model for other states, and then eventually, the federal fire codes. Because of this, because of, largely because of her efforts. And she made a name for herself. She'd already made a name for herself, but this really kinda helped cement her name. And she started working closely with a guy named Alfred E. Smith, who was an assemblyman

• 20:55Speaker 04

  Oh, so close.

• 20:55Josh Clark?

  from New York. But he, she won his respect pretty easily. I think they worked on this New York Committee on Safety together.

• 21:08Josh Clark?

  And so, when he became governor, she kind of rose along with him.

• 21:13Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:13Josh Clark?

  She was appointed by him to New York State's Industrial Commission, which made her the first woman to be appointed to a state government position in the country. And with her $8,000 salary, she was the highest-paid woman to hold any office in the United States at the time. So she became important pretty quick. But she became important, everybody. This is really important to remember. By hard work and heart, which is just a wonderful combination. Like amazing things happen in from people who have that combination.

• 21:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, and she she ingratiated herself to these male politicians a couple of different important times in her life. And the first one was Alfred E. Smith, like you were saying. So she rose along with him because he knew, he was like, man, I don't care if she's a woman or not. She works harder than anyone I know. And she gets the job done, so I'm just gonna bring her along with me.

• 22:10Josh Clark?

  And not just not just works harder, she was known as a policy expert about worker safety and wage justice by this time, too.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I mean, I talked about her very large brain. And her higher education, she was super, super smart. Like I said, she majored in chemistry and physics, even though her real love was econ. So it's like, are you kidding me?

• 22:32Josh Clark?

  No, we're not kidding at all, Chuck.

• 22:34Speaker 04

  No, it's very much true.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  So, like you were saying, she first kind of rose to prominence with Alfred E. Smith, who, from what I could tell, I didn't get to research him very much, but the stuff that I ran across the references to him, he seemed like a genuine, like, true believer, crusader in justice, social justice as well.

• 22:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 22:53Josh Clark?

  So they were like a good, a good pair. And he made it as far as New York governor. He ran for president and didn't win. And when he didn't win, he, I guess, lost the governorship and was succeeded by Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And so Roosevelt came in, came into power in New York as the governor of New York. And Frances Perkins was already there and had already built up a reputation. And Roosevelt recognized the kind of person she was pretty quickly. Because a lot of people are, you know, you can give a lot of credit or a lot of vilification to Roosevelt for his New Deal policies, depending on your political stripes.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  But if you, you know, if you admire him for it, as I think most people should, he It wasn't just him. One of his great talents was to recognize talent in others.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:48Josh Clark?

  And to bring those people together and then enact policies based on their expertise and their recommendations. And one of those people was Frances Perkins, starting when he was governor of New York and then also when he became president, too.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, so when he came into his governorship, she had already been named and was the chairperson, called it a chairman back then, in 1926 of the state industrial board. She was doing a great job there. And then in 1929, FDR appointed her as the industrial commissioner of the state of New York. And what happens? The stock market crashes. The Great Depression hits America like a punch in the face. And she was the one who stepped in and got it in his ear and said, you know what? Like, I know that we have to feed people right now. We have really immediate needs. But like you mentioned earlier in the episode, she thought about the big picture and long-term goals.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  She said, we need to really take swift action here. So with her help, they created a committee on employment. He appointed her the head of that. And then when he was elected president in 1933, he said, you know what? I'm going to appoint you to be my secretary of labor.

• 25:03Josh Clark?

  That was huge.

• 25:04Speaker 04

  I've been working with you for 20 years. I trust you and you're going to do a great job. And the public roundly said, what? A woman in the cabinet?

• 25:13Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm. They really did. I mean, like, she was the first cabinet, first woman to serve as a cabinet member. I mean, women had just gotten the right to vote about 12 or 13 years before. So...

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Dude, she couldn't vote till she was 40.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  I know.

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Isn't that crazy?

• 25:30Josh Clark?

  And yet she held public-appointed offices and still couldn't vote.

• 25:35Speaker 04

  But wasn't allowed to vote for her boss, essentially.

• 25:37Josh Clark?

  Right, exactly. Yeah. So it was a really big deal that FDR appointed a woman to a cabinet position. And an important cabinet position, too. I mean, like, it's not like there's any necessarily... Important cabinet positions, but Secretary of Labor is pretty big.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Yeah, especially then.

• 25:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, especially then, right? And especially, you know, at a time when this this emerging superpower took a huge punch in the face and got knocked on its butt like the rest of the world by the Great Depression. This was important stuff that they were trying to figure out on the fly. But he chose a really, a really great person who wasn't really accepted at first, not just by the public, but by virtually anybody. The labor unions weren't happy she was there because she had a background in social work and policy, not labor.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  That scared them to death.

• 26:27Josh Clark?

  Yes, but she eventually won them over just by virtue of what she did. Like, the labor movement was on the ropes at the time. The progressive era ran from, I think, 1890 to about 1920. So by the time 1929, 1930 comes around, it's dying off, the labor movement. But under her leadership as the Department of Labor Secretary, she revived it. And by the time she either died or left office, I can't remember, I think a third of all Americans were members of unions.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  Yeah, and pre the union stuff, like, kind of right after the Great Depression hit, one of the first things they did together was created the Civilian Conservation Corps, the CCC, which was a really big success, one of the big early successes of the New Deal, in that they said, you know what? We have all this, we have this workforce of these unskilled unmarried men. And let's get these guys working in conservation. We have this vast areas of rural land and natural resources. And let's send these guys out there to work on this stuff. And they did, and it provided a ton of jobs to the Civilian Conservation Corps.

• 27:45Josh Clark?

  It did, and it also helped reinforce and build out America's infrastructure, too, because they had all this labor that the government was putting to work doing it, right?

• 27:54Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:54Josh Clark?

  So she was in charge of overseeing that. And one of the other, I guess the next big thing, I think it was before Social Security, was something called the Wagner Act. And the Wagner Act gave-

• 28:09Speaker 04

  Oh, I think you mean the Wagner Act.

• 28:12Josh Clark?

  The Wagner-Wagner Act, depending on your persuasion. It gave workers the right to unionize and the right to collectively bargain.

• 28:22Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:23Josh Clark?

  And one of her roles was to go out and promote this stuff, not just to, you know, other members of the government or members of industry, but to individual Americans, too. So in 1933 alone, she gave 100 different policy speeches in just that one year on New Deal projects, promoting them. And one of the speeches she gave, I don't know if it was in that year or not, but she went to Homestead, Pennsylvania, right across the river from Pittsburgh, where Carnegie Steel was headquartered. And she was going to inform these workers about their newly won rights through the Wagner Act. And Carnegie Steel and the local government would not give her any place to hold this meeting.

• 29:07Josh Clark?

  They wouldn't give the Secretary of Labor a place to talk to voters. So she, and there's apparently a famous picture of her leading all of these steelworkers on foot to a post office. She's like, "Oh, I can think of a place where I can assemble legally, and that is the post office." So she gave her speech on the grounds of the Homestead Post Office to thousands of steelworkers, informing them that they could legally unionize and bargain collectively for workers' rights.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  That's amazing. I feel like- I feel like we had to have talked about her in our unions episode. And if we didn't, shame on us, but also shame on the fact that she probably didn't pop up in our research, which is one of the problems.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, mostly the second one.

• 29:51Speaker 04

  All right, so I'm gonna pass that buck.

• 29:54Josh Clark?

  Right. The buck stops over there.

• 29:58Speaker 04

  Well, we're making up for it now, either way.

• 30:00Josh Clark?

  Okay, Chuck, so we were saying at the outset that if you got an unemployment check, thank Frances Perkins, or if you ever get an unemployment check, if you even like the idea of the fact that an unemployment insurance policy is out there for you in case you ever need it, thank Frances Perkins. And the reason you thank Frances Perkins is because she basically oversaw the creation of the legislation that became the Social Security Act of 1935. And when I say oversaw the creation of that legislation, like she, that was it. She was the head of this cabinet-level committee that was assigned the task of coming up with

• 30:44Josh Clark?

  a social insurance policy, a social safety net for the country. And they came up with this within six months, this full policy report. And within two days of delivering the report, FDR turned around and unveiled the social security program idea to Congress. And another six months or so later, maybe eight, it passed into law.

• 31:08Speaker 04

  Yeah, and, boy, we should do one on social security at some point.

• 31:12Josh Clark?

  I agree. I think we have, man.

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  I'm almost positive. Yeah, it really rings a bell. Go ahead, I'm looking at it.

• 31:20Speaker 04

  Well, no, I'm gonna have our little, our assistant over here check that. Can you go and check on that? Okay, they're on it.

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  Who is, are Tommy Chong?

• 31:30Speaker 04

  Like we've ever had anyone that worked for us. That's the funny thing is when we get emails over the years, they're like, well, to Josh and Chuck and Jerry, or whoever on your staff is reading this. It's like, yeah, it's pretty much us.

• 31:44Josh Clark?

  Yeah, while we're reading these emails while we're having to sweep up the studio.

• 31:49Speaker 04

  Well, I want to be fair. To be fair, we work for a big podcasting network and there are a lot of people that help us get stuff out in the world, but we have never had like a Stuff You Should Know staff of eight people who

• 32:00Josh Clark?

  No.

• 32:01Speaker 04

  only work for us and research for us and all that stuff.

• 32:03Josh Clark?

  And I feel like it really shows in the podcast.

• 32:06Speaker 04

  Like, I'm glad you said that because I felt like I was patting ourselves on the back for a second there.

• 32:10Josh Clark?

  No, the opposite.

• 32:11Speaker 04

  You dashed that very fast.

• 32:13Josh Clark?

  Sure. Self-deprecation, Chuck. That's our specialty.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  That's right.

• 32:28Speaker 07

  This is Jonas Knox from Two Pros and a Cup of Joe. Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Ford ability and it starts with a great deal on an off-road ready Tacoma or half ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 33:06Speaker 06

  Hi, it's Kathleen Griffith, co-host of the Unshakeables podcast. Listen in as Ron and Kelly Moore share their story.

• 33:14Speaker 07

  I'm Ron Moore. And I'm Kelly Moore. And starting her own business.

• 33:20Speaker 06

  Business in our 50s was a little scary, but exciting.

• 33:24Speaker 07

  The biggest advantage was our community. The whole thing about business is relationships.

• 33:29Speaker 06

  We'll say team a lot, not just our internal team. It's the team of our vendors, the team of our clients.

• 33:36Speaker 07

  We help the Veterans Resource Center and we give scholarships. I'm doing this for my heart, for my children, for you, for your children's family. I don't want anything back. And I tell a lot of people, don't give back to me, pay it forward.

• 33:50Speaker 06

  If you work to give, you just see the world differently.

• 33:54Speaker 07

  I'm gonna help as many people as we can. I can't take it with me.

• 33:57Speaker 06

  To hear more from Ron and Kelly, listen to The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts.

• 34:15Speaker 04

  So, uh, social security, what we're talking about in general, everyone knows what this is, is, um, basically a system where, um, younger, hardy people, working hard in this country, help out older people, retired people, uh, perhaps disabled people, people that have had work-related accidents.

• 34:36Josh Clark?

  People who wear funny hats.

• 34:37Speaker 04

  People who wear funny hats. Um, and, and pay into this system that, uh, ideally, and you know, we're not going to get into the weeds here, that, that would come on our social security podcast. But ideally then, when you are old or in need, then you have that same money waiting for you because of the younger generation and the younger workforce.

• 34:55Josh Clark?

  Right, that's the brilliance of the whole thing is it's a transfer payment system to where you are directly funding the people who have retired now, but it's on the premise that people behind you are going to fund into this to support you later on.

• 35:11Speaker 04

  Right.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  It's beautiful, it's a genius idea. And apparently FDR sent her, uh, Frances Perkins to study, um, the British system of unemployment insurance, even before he was president, back when he was governor of New York. And he became the first public official to commit to developing an unemployment insurance plan. And it was at the persistent behest of Frances Perkins that he did that.

• 35:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it's not like, uh, I mean, he, he didn't run for office. With social security on his list of things to do.

• 35:44Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people say like, if it weren't for her, no joke, this stuff probably wouldn't exist. Certainly not in the form that it does now. And that's not necessarily fair. There are, like, there were programs that had like social security type programs among the states, including unemployment programs. But they were ad hoc, they were patchwork. Most states didn't have them. And it's the, kind of, the, the, the beauty of this, the federal program is they're basically like, okay, states do this, but we're going to oversee it and organize it and, and help fund it.

• 36:20Speaker 04

  Yeah, and it's not like I was saying that all the FDR was like, not a champion of it, or was just lazy. He was, he had a bunch of stuff going on, and he had a bunch of irons in the fire. So he needed her to come in and say, hey, listen, this is all great, because we're in a, in a tragic situation right now, like, we're trying to put out a fire. But what I want to do is make sure another fire doesn't happen in the future.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  Yes, and that was like, her whole thing. Like, we do need to make sure that people get peanut butter sandwiches, because their families are going to starve. Like, yes, these immediate needs have to be met, but we also simultaneously have to plan for the future, too. It was, it was just this persistent drum that she beat. Like, we're going to continue to have problems, let's plan for them now. Like, the level of visionariness in this, in this person was, you just don't see that. I can't think of too many other people who've come and gone, in the federal government, in the United States at least, that had that level of, I guess, awareness of looking down the line that far, rather than just, you know, four years out or to the next election.

• 37:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, and she also, you know, we talked about some of the things she did earlier in terms of, of her career, in terms of fair labor practices. But when she was Secretary of Labor, she had real teeth to make real change. And during her tenure, she helped craft the Fair Labor Standards Act. She helped establish minimum wage laws, maximum work hours laws. And she finally said, you know what? Maybe we shouldn't make labor for children better. Maybe we should not bring our children to work and make them work. So let's just get rid of child labor altogether.

• 38:02Josh Clark?

  And you can make the case Chuck, that she is the woman who gave America's kids the concept of a childhood.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:09Josh Clark?

  At the very least, she extended it by many, many years.

• 38:12Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 38:14Josh Clark?

  I've got another amazing fact about her. She, I believe, is the first cabinet member who Congress ever sought to impeach.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  Oh, really?

• 38:25Josh Clark?

  Yes, I'm almost positive that's correct. I know that they did try to impeach her and they failed in the impeachment, not just the conviction. She, they couldn't get enough support for articles of impeachment. But it was because she refused to deport an Australian longshoreman who'd successfully organized a general strike in San Francisco. And the anti-communist elements in Congress suspected that this guy was a communist and wanted him out. And she said, you know, I don't think very highly of this guy. I don't really agree with a lot of what he stands for. But I don't think that you have really good evidence. And I think this is all retaliation for the strike you organized. So I'm not going to deport him.

• 39:09Josh Clark?

  And you might say, well, what did this lady have to do with deporting? Apparently, back in the day, the immigration, the power of immigration or control of immigration was up to the Department of Labor. So the Secretary of Labor was also in charge of immigration, which really kind of gives you an idea of where America's immigration policies, you know, where their mind was at.

• 39:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:30Josh Clark?

  That it was about importing, you know, good, good workers or also controlling who came in to keep competition for jobs down.

• 39:40Speaker 04

  Totally.

• 39:41Josh Clark?

  But she, so she was in charge of immigration, which, as we'll see later on, she used to great effect.

• 39:47Speaker 04

  Is that our little, is that our cherry on top at the end?

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 39:50Speaker 04

  Okay, that's a good idea.

• 39:52Josh Clark?

  It's the kid with the last question in Q and A.

• 39:55Speaker 04

  Oh, man. And not the drunk guy?

• 39:58Josh Clark?

  I hate that guy.

• 40:00Speaker 04

  So when FDR passed away in 1945, she was the longest-serving labor secretary and one of only two cabinet members to serve the entire length of his super, super-long presidency. And she held over into Truman as well. He was like, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." So you're welcome to stay, which you don't see a lot of that anymore.

• 40:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:23Speaker 04

  She published a biography, a bestseller about FDR called "The Roosevelt I Knew." And here are a few other just sort of career feathers in her cap. She was the head of the American delegation to the International Labor Organization in Paris. Truman appointed her to the U.S. Civil Service Commission, which was a position she held till 1953. And she basically accomplished every single one of her goals while she was Secretary of Labor, except for one thing she went in there wanting to do, which was universal access to health care.

• 40:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, which is kind of a bummer.

• 41:01Speaker 04

  Some people might say it's a bummer. Some people might say, "Good."

• 41:06Josh Clark?

  Sure. She also played drums for Dokken for a brief time.

• 41:10Speaker 04

  For a little bit.

• 41:11Josh Clark?

  She did it all, and all while wearing a frumpy, tricorned hat.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  That's right. And then after that, she did what a lot of people in public policy do. She went on to teach and lecture at the New York State School of Industrial and Labor Relations at Cornell University. She did that till she was 85 years old, when she passed away in 1965.

• 41:33Josh Clark?

  Yes, there are a couple of other things to throw into. Both her husband and her daughter suffered from what we today call bipolar disorder. She cared for them their entire lives.

• 41:44Speaker 04

  That little thing.

• 41:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, right.

• 41:49Speaker 04

  Can you imagine?

• 41:50Josh Clark?

  No, while she's doing all this other stuff, she made sure that they were cared for, took care of them directly herself. And one of the other things I think is worth mentioning, too, that before FDR became president, while she was working in New York, she was already known publicly.

• 42:08Josh Clark?

  Before she became Secretary of Labor, because she was the first public official to call Hoover out on his BS when he was downplaying joblessness numbers and unemployment figures and just general terrible economic news and pretending things were way better than they were. She was the first person to step up and publicly contradict him and made national news for that.

• 42:33Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 42:33Josh Clark?

  And, you know, again, this is a woman doing this in like 1930, so just that alone makes national news. But she was also calling him out on his BS. And one thing that we have to say before you finish with the cherry on top, Chuck, is she had guys figured out. She had a folder called Notes on the Male Mind. And she would just take notes on guys and men that she worked with and just kind of try to get an understanding of them. And she realized that the way to get male colleagues to treat you normally, or maybe even respect you, is to remind them of their mother.

• 43:11Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 43:12Josh Clark?

  And that's what it takes, apparently, to get a guy to treat a woman with respect at work.

• 43:19Speaker 04

  Well, and, you know, we mentioned why she's undersung. There, you know, history is written by men. We all know this. And a lot of those New Deal histories in the 70s and 80s didn't even mention her, which is just staggering that you can write a history of the New Deal and not mention Frances Perkins. It's just like a black eye on any author that did something like that.

• 43:40Josh Clark?

  It almost seems malicious in a weird way. Like, I like to think that that's not the case, but what other explanation is there?

• 43:47Speaker 04

  It's nuts.

• 43:48Josh Clark?

  It's weird.

• 43:49Speaker 04

  So the cherry on top here at the end is World War II. She, World War II is not a cherry on top. But she was watching Hitler do his thing in Germany and got really worried.

• 44:02Josh Clark?

  She's like, man, that guy's cranked.

• 44:04Speaker 04

  She was, read about antisemitism and everything that was going on with the violence there. And she wanted to help German refugees escape. And at the time, the Coolidge administration, the immigration laws... That came through his administration were really tough. And Americans were very fearful that relaxing these laws would increase the job competition and that Americans weren't going to have these jobs. And she said, you know what? I don't agree. The immigration service is under the Department of Labor. And so I am going to put some quotas down to get some of these refugees here and to aid them. And she did that to great success.

• 44:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she made sure that about at least 55,000 Jewish, German immigrants made their way into the United States through these Department of Labor immigration quotas. And another, I think, 200,000 people in general were rescued from Europe as World War II was starting to develop over there because of her. Just on top of everything else, she also saved a bunch of tens of thousands of Jewish people from Hitler in World War II.

• 45:12Speaker 04

  Amazing.

• 45:13Josh Clark?

  Amazing, Chuck. I guess that's it for Frances Perkins, huh?

• 45:19Speaker 04

  That's it.

• 45:20Josh Clark?

  Well, if you want to know more about Frances Perkins, go start reading about her because there's even more detail to her life than we captured here. And she's worth reading about. Very admirable person. And since I said admirable, it's time for listener mail.

• 45:32Speaker 04

  I'm going to call this Helping a Helper. And this is from Tony. Tony says this, hey, guys, I've been sewing face masks for almost a month now, and I'm close to my 1,000th mask.

• 45:47Josh Clark?

  Nice.

• 45:48Speaker 04

  It's a lot. I have given and donated to friends, family, coworkers. I'm a 911 dispatcher, by the way. Healthcare workers, retail workers, delivery people, postal workers, and other essential workers, and

• 46:01Josh Clark?

  People wearing funny hats.

• 46:02Speaker 04

  People wearing funny hats and complete strangers. Now that face masks have become mandatory here in San Diego, the need has grown substantially. And through all of this, you three have been with me and keeping me company. Actually, I'm not Jerry, too.

• 46:17Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah.

• 46:19Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 46:20Josh Clark?

  She wasn't talking about Tommy Chong, I'll tell you that.

• 46:23Speaker 04

  Old episodes and new have entertained me through the tedious hours of cutting fabric, ironing, pinning, and sewing. I started listening to your podcast while I was in the Navy and soon introduced you guys to my husband, who is still in the military. We have both listened and learned through the years together. Thank you for continuing your show and helping the helpers of the world. Side note, love the 911 dispatcher episode and thank you for clearing up the pizza order myth. Second side note, I wrote my master's thesis on the use of body worn cameras by law enforcement and I decided to focus on that topic after listening to that awesome episode.

• 47:00Josh Clark?

  Oh, neat.

• 47:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's pretty cool. All three of you are thanked and mentioned in the thesis, even.

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 47:07Speaker 04

  When I'm tired and don't want to sew anymore, I think of this quote from Mr. Rogers.

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  Head down.

• 47:13Speaker 04

  "When I was a boy and I would see scary things in the news, my mother would say to me, 'Look for the helpers. You will always find people who are helping.'"

• 47:22Josh Clark?

  Go to them and they will help you.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  And that is from Tawny. And that's a great quote, Tawny. I'm gonna use that in my own house.

• 47:30Josh Clark?

  It's kind of like, if you're afraid of flying, watch the flight attendants and as long as they're not freaking out, you're fine.

• 47:36Speaker 04

  It's the exact same thing.

• 47:37Josh Clark?

  He's saying when the S goes down, there's people helping. So that's always good.

• 47:44Speaker 04

  God bless Mr. Rogers and you, Tawny.

• 47:47Josh Clark?

  Oh, man. Yep. Thanks a lot. Is it Tony?

• 47:50Speaker 04

  Tawny, T-A-W-N-Y.

• 47:53Josh Clark?

  I couldn't tell if you were just putting a little mustard on the Tony.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  No, like Tawny Cattane.

• 47:57Josh Clark?

  Sure, yeah. From the Whitesnake videos.

• 48:00Speaker 04

  That cultural icon.

• 48:01Josh Clark?

  Well, thanks a lot, Tawny. I apologize for Chuck calling you Tawny Cattane. Okay? Can I apologize for you, Charles?

• 48:10Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 48:11Josh Clark?

  Okay. Well, I'm gonna do that. If you want to get me to apologize for Charles, let's see if you can do it. You can send us an email. Wrap it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it off to [email protected].

• 48:27Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 48:43Josh Clark?

  Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota Fordability. And it starts with a great deal on an off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra, two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. And they're built on a reputation for quality and reliability, which is why Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for more. Toyota, let's go places.

• 49:14Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 49:46Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.