The Man That Makes Millionaires: Turn $100 to $10k With This Step By Step Formula & Build An Audience From 0 Followers! Alex Hormozi

Are these simple things keeping you broke? Alex Hormozi reveals the biggest business lies you’ve been told and the formula to turn $1,000 into $100 million Alex Hormozi is an Iranian-American entrepreneur, investor, philanthropist and founder of Acquisition.com. He is the author of books such as ‘$100M Leads: How to Get Strangers To Want To Buy Your Stuff’ and $100M Offers: How To Make Offers So Good People Feel Stupid Saying No’. In this conversation, Alex and Steven discuss topics such as, how to escape a 9 to 5 life, the exact formula to triple your net worth, how to build an audience from 0 followers, and how to REALLY succeed with your business model. 00:00 Intro 02:13 What Would You Say to the Millions of Entrepreneurs That Follow You? 03:18 What Entrepreneurs Really Need 12:03 Is There a Framework for Knowing When to Quit? 16:05 Fear vs. Logic: How to Think Rationally 19:08 Your Decisions Are Driven by Self-Awareness 23:35 What to Do When You Quit Your Job: The 4 P's 24:42 Pain as a Driver 27:29 Mercenaries and Missionaries in Business 32:30 Just One P Will Make You Succeed! 35:47 What's the Cheat Code to Win at the Game of Attention? 39:33 The Winning Strategy for 2025 49:08 How Important Are People in the Business Journey? 56:46 First-Time Founders Need to Know This About Recruiting 59:09 A-Players Hire A-Players 01:01:40 The Ability to Have Hard Conversations Sooner 01:09:31 Be Kind, Not Nice, as a Manager 01:15:42 How to Not F*ck Up in the Hiring Process 01:23:40 How Do You Know They're Not BSing You in the Interview? 01:24:42 How to Hire Great People If You Don't Have the Money 01:27:56 The Pros and Cons of Experienced vs. Less Experienced Employees 01:29:58 The 4 R's 01:33:08 How to Be Prepared for the Rollercoaster of Building a Business 01:55:35 What Successful Companies Do 01:57:58 How to Double Your Business Growth 02:10:45 How to Help a Founder Who's About to Quit—They Can't Take It Anymore 02:16:40 The Old Innovators' Dilemma and How to Adapt 02:25:46 Your Rate of Experimentation Has to Be Higher Than Your Competitors! 02:29:03 Do Mentors Matter in Our Journey? 02:37:18 Parrots vs. Practitioners: The Best Way to Learn 02:42:16 The Founder Mode 02:46:44 Founders and the Competitors Around Them 02:49:07 Work-Life Balance 02:56:28 The Mantra That Helped Me 03:03:36 How to Drive Meaning from Your Life 03:09:43 What Is the Meaning of Life? Follow Alex: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/EBxnhGYpNQb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/wucQ8x0pNQb YouTube: You can purchase Alex’s book, ‘$100M Leads: How to Get Strangers To Want To Buy Your Stuff’, here: https://amzn.to/413cH2K Spotify: You can purchase Alex’s book, ‘$100M Leads: How to Get Strangers To Want To Buy Your Stuff’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/WcEZGF3pNQb Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACEpisodes My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Adobe - https://www.adobe.com/uk/express/spotlight/stevenbartlett?sdid=5NHJ82ZD&mv=social ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code BARTLETT10 for 10% off Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Alex Hormozi?

  If you want to make more money, you might want to consider doing this. So number one is

• 0:04Steven Bartlett?

  Hold that thought for just a second because the thing that comes before that is misgraphing yours.

• 0:09Alex Hormozi?

  Oh God, this is the entrepreneur life cycle. And there are six stages. Now, the vast majority of people get stuck on stage three. I've made some of the biggest career mistakes at this point. And you end up living the same six months for 20 straight years, suffering until you learn how to break free from it.

• 0:23Steven Bartlett?

  I want to go through the whole thing.

• 0:24Alex Hormozi?

  This is going to be awesome. Alex Hormozi is the master of business strategy.

• 0:29Steven Bartlett?

  An artist in scaling companies into the millions. And a leading voice in how to craft your way to success.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  He's an entrepreneurial powerhouse.

• 0:36Alex Hormozi?

  Whether you're starting out or want to go from one million to 10 million, there are certain behaviors and actions that will increase the likelihood of success that we're going to overthrow. But here's the really hard truth that a lot of people don't like talking about. Entrepreneurs must be willing to make impossible choices, have the courage to be willing to be wrong, have shame by failing at things in front of people whose opinions they carry on. And that fear keeps people stuck in a job and a life they don't want for years. And that was my path. I had a white collar job, a condo overlooking the city. Everything was according to plan. And I remember thinking like, I didn't want to be alive because I was so afraid. But once you get over the fear, it unleashes this whole new realm of possibility of being able to do what you want. And that is when you can learn the real game of entrepreneurship, such as knowing that business ideas typically come from one of three Ps. And you only need one of those three. And then there's the four Rs for customer success,

• 1:21Alex Hormozi?

  how to learn new skills quickly, how to stand out in a competitive market, the winning strategy for 2025, and so much more.

• 1:28Steven Bartlett?

  So where should I start? I find it incredibly fascinating that when we look at the backend of Spotify and Apple and our audio channels, the majority of people that watch this podcast haven't yet hit the follow button or the subscribe button, wherever you're listening to this. I would like to make a deal with you. If you could do me a huge favor and hit that subscribe button, I will work tirelessly from now until forever to make the show better and better and better and better. I can't tell you how much it helps when you hit that subscribe button. The show gets bigger, which means we can expand the production, bring in all the guests you want to see, and continue to doing this thing we love. If you could do me that small favor and hit the follow button, wherever you're listening to this, that would mean the world to me. That is the only favor I will ever ask you. Thank you so much for your time. Back to this episode.

• 2:13Steven Bartlett?

  Alex, if someone's just clicked on this conversation and they're considering listening for the next couple of hours, based on everything that you do for the millions of entrepreneurs that follow you, that read your books, can you tell me exactly why you believe they should stay and listen and who should stay and listen?

• 2:31Alex Hormozi?

  At acquisition.com, we scale businesses. The content that I generate, that we put out, conversations like this, helps people who are going from zero to one, just getting off the ground, to helping people go from one million to 10 million, to helping the entrepreneurs going from 10 to 100, either get there or exit along the way. And there are frameworks that cross all three of those that I consider both deep and wide, that help any business navigate whatever strategic decision is in front of them to get the highest potential return for their time. And so if you're listening or watching, then if one of those frameworks applies immediately to your business and allows you to pull five

• 3:14Alex Hormozi?

  years forward in your career, I would say that's a pretty good return on time.

• 3:18Steven Bartlett?

  For the people that are at zero?

• 3:19Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 3:20Steven Bartlett?

  What is it that they're typically coming to you to help them with? So if you were one of them?

• 3:25Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 3:26Steven Bartlett?

  What is it that they want from Alex or Muzi?

• 3:29Alex Hormozi?

  I think it's, there's what they think they want and what they actually need, which are two different things. And so I think what they think they want is some tactic that's going to immediately help them start a business. What they typically actually need is the courage to be willing to be wrong and to be willing to have shame by failing at things in front of people whose opinions they care about. And I think that's, if I rewind the clock for me... It was probably one of the hardest things that I had to get over. And so I think that's why maybe my message resonates with a lot of people is because it was so hard for me to get over.

• 4:13Alex Hormozi?

  And what's interesting is basically anybody who's listening, the harder it is for you to break free of whatever kind of mental prison you've made for yourself, whether that's real or just in your head, the more compelling your story will be when you break through it. Because it will resonate with even more people. For the people that it was easy, that their story doesn't have a lot of like. I was immediately an entrepreneur. Like, I wasn't like that. I had a job when I was in high school. I had a job immediately out of college. Some people were like, I was selling lemonade out of the back of my, you know, thing when I was 13. I didn't do any of that. Like, I, school failed me. I actually was pretty good at school. I didn't have any of those issues. You know what I mean? And so I had a pretty clear career path. And so I had what many would consider like, I had a real opportunity cost.

• 4:57Alex Hormozi?

  So I had a white collar job and I had a GMAT score above Harvard's mid score. And so I had a really clear path of what my life would, could look like in the next 20, 30 years. And it was fairly well defined. Like, I'll go to Harvard or Stanford or one of the top business schools and then I will either go back into management consulting, I'll go into investment banking, and then eventually end up in private equity. And that would be the path, right? And then all the flowers would be set at my feet and, you know, everyone would say, we approve of you, you're an excellent person. But when I saw the people who were 20 years ahead of me, I really didn't want their life. And then it started making me look at my life and I was like, I don't even know if I really want my life. And so the, the big decisions that I've made in my life, unfortunately, have almost always

• 5:40Alex Hormozi?

  come at the, at the, the doorstep of apparent death. And I think maybe in some ways that makes me a coward for having needed death to make decisions. And so operationalizing that has been something that has helped me move faster to make decisions that I know I need to make but don't. And so like the first big, kind of like, What felt like a death decision was I was a consultant, 22-ish years old. I had a paid-for condo that I bought overlooking the city. And I remember thinking like, I really hope I don't wake up tomorrow. And that, and I don't mean that to be melodramatic. I just, I just, for a period of time, I just always just like hoped every night.

• 6:25Alex Hormozi?

  I was like, I just really hope I don't wake up tomorrow. Like, I just don't want to do this. And what was difficult about that was that at that time was when my father was most proud of me. Because I was doing everything that was according to plan. You know, he could talk about like his son, who graduated in three years from Vanderbilt, had the, had the good job, like everything was, we're following the plan. And it was upon realizing that my ultimate expression of living out his dream was me feeling like I didn't want to be alive. And so, in, and it took me time to get to that point to even articulate that. Because obviously, you never want to kind of like admit failure of like, I have really messed something up here. But I was living my life to win someone else's game.

• 7:10Alex Hormozi?

  And when I realized that, I realized that one of our dreams had to die, either his or mine. And when I realized that his dream must die in order for mine to live, was a statement that I kind of crystallized when I was at that point in my life. Like, I had to keep repeating that, like, his dream has to die in order for mine to live. And so, to put this in perspective of like how afraid of my father's judgment I was, I left the state and drove across the country halfway through before calling him to tell him that I was gone. And so, I bring this up because I don't try, I'm not trying to be dramatic here, but I'm saying that if you feel a lot of pressure, I get it. Like, I tried to leave the job that I was at to pursue just literally anything. That wasn't that, just I wanted to start a business at some point.

• 7:55Alex Hormozi?

  I didn't know how I was going to do it. I just knew that what I was doing was not the path I wanted to be on. And everybody around me wanted me to be on that path. And so, I went to go be like, hey, I'm thinking about doing something else. And, you know, it would always be that, ah, you know, don't, later, later. Like, everything's good, later, you know? And I remember when I called my dad and I told him that. He said, "Understand. Why don't you come home?" Like, "Come home." Well, I didn't tell him that I was I was gone yet. Like, I said, "Hey, I want to go pursue this fitness thing." He said, "Cool. Come over for lunch. We'll talk about it." You know, and I was like, "I'm already gone." And then, obviously, his tone changed a lot. And, you know, our relationship struggled for, you know, years after that.

• 8:37Alex Hormozi?

  And I also bring that up because sometimes there's this illusion that like, you know, you get on the Oscar stage or whatever it is, and you're like, "Hey, I just want to thank, you know, my mom, my dad, my friends for always supporting me." And I can't say that. And I wish I could. And you might not be able to say that either. And I also don't think that's a reason not to do it. And so, we did struggle for years after that to kind of like, because I was basically living as what was once his prodigal son, goes and takes a minimum wage job as a personal trainer at a gym, like, you know, cleaning floors and stuff to learn, just to learn the gym business. But that was ultimately like how I broke free, literally, you know, physically leaving the area and, you know, mentally.

• 9:21Alex Hormozi?

  But I think that I had to accept that there was a timeline where my father would never talk to me again. And I had to be okay with that to pursue what I wanted. And I think that when you ask the original question, "What are the people from zero to one really looking for?" I read tons of business books at that time. But I couldn't use any of them because I was so afraid. And what's crazy is that, like, I think about it now in retrospect, and it's like, it's crazy how large the perceived monsters can appear. And Leila has this quote that I love, but it's, "Fear is a mile wide and inch deep." And so, you look at it, and it looks like this ocean. And then you take the first step and you realize you don't drown. Because it's like, "Oh, there's ground underneath of this, right? There's other people who are more on my path."

• 10:05Alex Hormozi?

  And the friends you lose, you gain new friends, right? And so, that fear...

• 10:12Alex Hormozi?

  Was the hardest decision that I've had to overcome in my entrepreneurial career. And I think of all the of all the split paths in my life, that was the one that if I had many timelines or many universes that existed, that was probably the one that is the most likely that I would not have parted from. So I think in like 90% of universes that Alex Ramos exists, I'm just a consultant somewhere. And so I would encourage you, if you do feel that, you're not going to die. Like you won't die and you might just live.

• 10:42Steven Bartlett?

  It's so interesting because I think everything you've said is just absolutely spot on. But you're right in where you say that if you'd asked an audience member listening now, why they haven't started yet, they wouldn't say fear. They would say, I haven't got the X, I haven't got the Y. But actually, it is such an emotional thing and we don't talk about that enough because uncertainty is, humans seem to be allergic to uncertainty and they'd rather the certain misery of their current situation typically than uncertainty.

• 11:09Alex Hormozi?

  And I think, and I used what I consider a very non palatable word of coward purposely, because no one wants to say they're afraid, because if you say you're afraid, then it means you're a coward. And I think that it only means you're a coward if you don't, if you allow that fear to change your behavior in an aversive way, as in it not towards what you want. And so, you know, the inverse of that, many people have heard it, courage is not acting without fear, but despite fear. And I think that when you act,

• 11:45Alex Hormozi?

  when you allow fear to change your behavior the wrong way, that is when you can give yourself that title of coward. And I think that that is a title that I have feared my whole life. And that label is almost, I'm more afraid of that label than the label of failure. I'd rather be a failure than a coward.

• 12:03Steven Bartlett?

  Is there a framework for knowing when to quit?

• 12:08Alex Hormozi?

  So I think there's the math behind it. And the math, I think, is pretty straightforward. So like, when do you quit your business? I like, you've saved up three to six months of personal savings, number one. Number two is that you have started something, because nowadays in the digital age, you can begin a business on the side that can generate income. And that income, in the small amount of time that you're not working, replaces, or at least matches, the existing income you have from your current job. And you've been able to do that, or demonstrate that income, for like, three to six months. If you do that, that's a very like, math way of approaching it. That also is basically never the reason that people aren't quitting their job. Like, that's a really, like, I have backlog, I've matched my current income with my part-time work,

• 12:53Alex Hormozi?

  and if I just put my full-time work, I would probably make more. Very reasonable, but never actually the reason that people don't do it.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  I was thinking about the two sort of reasons why someone might quit something, or feel like they want to quit. And one of them is clearly because it's hard. And that's obviously not reason enough to quit. And then there's another one, which you were speaking to there, which is, it's not moving me towards a meaningful goal, irrespective of how hard it is. Like a marathon, you're raising money for a charity you care about. It's hard, but you don't quit.

• 13:19Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 13:19Steven Bartlett?

  And then there's, maybe if you're running a marathon for no apparent reason, you know, there was no charity, there was no one watching, there was no like, fitness benefit, then that's a good, I guess, moment to consider quitting. My story maybe shows in a way that I didn't realize. I didn't realize you went through a similar thing in terms of parents' disownership.

• 13:38Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 13:40Steven Bartlett?

  No real great option to flee to, but feeling like, the current path that would have led me to be, I don't know, a business management student, was significantly worse on balance than taking the risk. But I think maybe a point of distinction is it didn't, I was so naive that it didn't feel like a risk.

• 13:57Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. So what's really interesting about that is the guarantee. And so a lot of times, we don't, we don't look at what I call the don't, which is like, the alternate path. And so if I had played out my existing path, I had a guarantee of outcome I didn't want. It was just added delay. Whereas here, there's a chance that I can make it. And so, one of the final kind of frameworks for making the decision was guarantee bad, chance at good. And I was like, well, I might as well take a chance. And I strongly encourage thinking about playing it out.

• 14:39Alex Hormozi?

  And so what I mean by that is, like, I think fear exists in the vague, not in the specific. And so, when you say, I'm gonna quit my job, and then, what if this doesn't work? I'm gonna failure. Tons of fear. If I say, I'm gonna quit my job, and then, I'm gonna try and start a business. And if the business doesn't work, I'll probably have a compelling story that I could tell for business school if I wanted to, to show that I had some entrepreneurial slant. In the meantime, I could use that experience plus my job experience to probably get another or maybe even better job in the meantime and match or supersede my existing income. And the actual loss would be maybe the savings that I had saved up.

• 15:21Alex Hormozi?

  But if I'm younger, or I haven't made as much money as I want, then that's never been the amount of money that would be material anyways on the grand scheme of what I would like to make. And in terms of living situation, I will, worst case, go back to my parents' house with my tail between my legs, or sleep at a friend's couch, because I have enough people that would be willing to put me up in a garage if I had to. And so, it's like, okay. So, my actual worst-case scenario is just like, I have a cool story, and maybe some shame that is self-inflicted, because it's not like no one else cares, really. But it's self-inflicted shame, and maybe a detour or a different story that I have to tell later on in my career. Not as much fear there, right? But like, the first one, like, I'll fail, everyone will hate me, and I'll die.

• 16:05Steven Bartlett?

  The first one sounded like it was written by your amygdala, like the fearsome. And the second one was pure like prefrontal cortex. It was all logic.

• 16:12Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 16:12Steven Bartlett?

  And I'm wondering, as you're going into that decision, obviously, fear is gonna lead it, so of course, you're gonna go for option one, where you just think about the downside. Maybe there's a practice that allows you to get into your prefrontal cortex into logic.

• 16:23Alex Hormozi?

  I think that's, I actually, so I think you nailed it, and said it way better than I did. But I think that's, I think going from vague to specific, basically disengages your amygdala, because it can't reason the logic chain of causation and causality of what's going to happen next in a chain of events. And so, when you get into the specific of it, all of a sudden, you're like, Okay, I'm not gonna be homeless and then shamed and die.

• 16:50Alex Hormozi?

  I might live in inferior living conditions for a short period, which, by the way, when you're later on in your life, you'll look back and think of as the good old days, because I can't believe I was couch surfing, I was pursuing my dreams. Right? It's only like in the moment that it feels bad, when you look back, like even, I find this hilarious, like, like, how long after you do something embarrassing is it funny? Right? Like, at some point, for almost all of us, with enough time, the shameful experience becomes funny. And so if it is going to become funny eventually, it might as well become funny now.

• 17:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Alex Hormozi?

  And so it's just like pulling the time horizon up. But all of that's prefrontal cortex decision making. And so, no, but I think that's exactly, like, I think that that nailed it. Because when I thought about this, this decision, obviously, I had my very, you know, emotional statement around, like, his dream has to die for mine to live. Yes. Also, logic downside risk here. I'll have a story, and I can always get my job back. Okay. And if I can't get that job back, I'll have other ones that will be available. Fine. And if I have a downgrading and some people think that I'm not as successful as them, okay, I'll not stop, though. And so I think that that, that demystifies a lot of the fears. I think that applies not just for entrepreneurial fears. I think it applies for any fear, like, I'm gonna, I can't tell this person this bad news. All right, let's play it out. I say something and then they're going to kill me? Probably not.

• 18:05Alex Hormozi?

  So what's gonna happen? I'll say these words, and then they're, they'll flip the table, they'll, they'll flick me off. They'll maybe just feel hurt, and maybe they'll cry, maybe they'll shout. Okay. Okay, if they shouted at me, what'd I do? Like, and you just kind of play it out, and you're like, okay, I think I have like most of these conditions prepared for. And then all of a sudden, you can like have those things.

• 18:26Steven Bartlett?

  What you also said is that in the face of guaranteed misery, any option is better.

• 18:31Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, that's real.

• 18:33Steven Bartlett?

  You get to live once. So like, why would guaranteed misery be better than any available option?

• 18:39Alex Hormozi?

  It's delay discounting. That's what's crazy is delay discounting happens both ways. Like, so like you set your alarm for 5:00 AM at night and you're like, I'm gonna wake up at 5:00. But that's because you're delaying the pain of waking up. And when it's immediate, when I have to quit the job, like I'll quit my job tomorrow for 20 years. And so it's just like, we always, we delay the fact that we're going to be miserable into the present. To like, we massively discount what a whole lifetime of misery would be.

• 19:08Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. When you're thinking about what to pursue, so say you've left the job, you've quit the thing. When you're thinking about what to pursue, how much of that is a decision derived from self-awareness? Because, you know, someone will look at you now and be like, oh, no, Alex did this. So I'm gonna start a acquisition.com, you know, or they'll say, I wanna, I saw Steve Jobs did that thing with the computers. I'm gonna start Apple or Elon, I'm gonna do the spaceships. How much do you have to know thyself to know what to pursue?

• 19:40Alex Hormozi?

  Man, this is a really good question. So there's a tweet that I love by Andrew Wilkinson, which is, every entrepreneur ever, colon, here's the winning number for my lottery ticket. And so it's like, every entrepreneur will say, here's the winning lottery ticket. But it's like, that game already, that drawing already happened.

• 19:59Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, yeah.

• 20:00Alex Hormozi?

  Right? And so like, you can't cash that ticket in, it's already done. And so people say the word first principles, no one really knows what it means. I mean, some people do, but I think far more people say it than know what it means. And so basically, there are foundational truths of business that that exist. And the conditions of the environment will change. And so you have to apply those truths to whatever the current condition is. And so that's what I try and tease out with the books and the stuff that I put out in content. But at the end of the day, you have an input of time, like zooming all the way out. If the goal, assuming that your goal is to make money, okay, like, and this is just a purely economic business goal, then you have time, which is the primary currency that you traded, and you make dollars over a period of time.

• 20:44Alex Hormozi?

  And so I tend to reject the idea of like, never, you know, never trade time for dollars or anything like that, because everyone trades time for dollars. It's just some of us are more efficient at it than others. But even exchanges that occur that just are not denominated in time still occur over time. And so you have this foundational unit of time, which you're going to give in. What we're seeking is the highest return on that time. And so there, you know, within a business context, there's kind of three levels of things that have to occur in a business. You have to, you know, attract attention, you have to convert attention, then you have to deliver something for that attention. And in each of those things, you want as much leverage as possible. So you want as little time as possible required to get the most output.

• 21:25Alex Hormozi?

  And so I have built acquisition.com on basically two primary theses, which are in the logo, which is this is a fulcrum for leverage.

• 21:34Steven Bartlett?

  For people that can't see, it's like a triangle.

• 21:36Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, so it's like a triangle or the Illuminati, because that always gets brought up. All right, so we've got the fulcrum for leverage and then inside of it, you have supply and demand. And I see those as the two foundational principles of business. And so, which is you need supply and demand to have a business and then leverage to get as much out of it as you possibly can. And so when you're looking at the assets that you have, assets can also be skills, resources, what you have available to you. Now, if you have nothing, then all you have is your brain, your hands and the time that you have that you can put towards learning something, which is why I'm a big fan of skill acquisition as one of the the primary things that you can do is educating yourself. And not formally educating, but informally or alternatively educating yourself on super tactical things.

• 22:20Alex Hormozi?

  Once you get over the fear, then you start asking, okay, how do I let people know about my stuff? And what do I let them know? Right? And so you have to have something to sell, which is the offer. And ideally, you want the offer to have as much leverage as possible. Like, so if you sold software or you sold media, those are things that you can cut once, sell a thousand times. If you have a conversion mechanism, it's like you can't have it be automated, like a checkout page or some sort of video sales letter or something like that where people just buy without a phone salesperson. If you add a phone salesperson, there's less leverage, not to say this wrong, but you want to you want to have the highest leverage opportunity. And then from a from the deliverability perspective, I kind of talked about deliverability first.

• 23:02Alex Hormozi?

  But from the advertising perspective, if you reach out to people one-on-one, that's lower leverage than being able to make one piece of content that a million people see. Right? And so over time, you go from low leverage to high leverage, where you have the same inputs, but you just get significantly more for your output. And that fundamentally is like, if we're reasoning up from first principles, how do I get? Said differently, the question someone I think is really asking is how do I get the most for what I put in? And you have to reason within your current context of your skills and your resources and your assets in order to derive that solution for you.

• 23:35Steven Bartlett?

  So if someone walks up to you in the street and they say, Alex, what ideas should I pursue? I've just quit my job.

• 23:39Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, right. So I would say business ideas typically come from one of three Ps. So it comes from a pain that you're currently experiencing, a past profession. So the thing that you just quit, or some of the jobs that you just quit, or a passion. So something that you're inherently interested in, that you would spend your time doing anyways. Some skill that you learned while you were in the workforce, which by the way, is one of the most proven ways of making money, because the economy has already showed you that people are willing to exchange money for that, for that specific job. And so in the world of gig economies and solo entrepreneurs, every business can be dismantled into just jobs being done, and all of those jobs can be fractionalized. So anybody like, we look at any business, you've got sales, you've got, you've got marketing, you've got customer success, you've got, you've got customer support.

• 24:24Alex Hormozi?

  If you want to differentiate that, you've got product, you've got design, you've got webpages, there's, you know, there's so many different components to a business, you just need to learn one of them. And then it's like, boom, you have a skill that you can trade for money that you don't have anybody else to report to. And then pain is usually, I think, in some ways, sometimes one of the biggest drivers. It's like you had an eating allergy and you couldn't find pancakes that dealt with your specific eating allergy. And you bet that there's a decent amount of other people with that allergy that also like pancakes. And so then you make pancakes that, that are delicious and amazing, that also cater to people with that food allergy. And then all of a sudden, like you have a business based on pain.

• 25:04Steven Bartlett?

  And why, why does that matter?

• 25:06Alex Hormozi?

  What part?

• 25:07Steven Bartlett?

  The pain part. What leverage and advantage does it give you for the next five years?

• 25:11Alex Hormozi?

  I think that deep knowledge of the prospect is paramount or very important for creating exceptional products. And you can either do that by doing a ton and ton of research, or by being the prospect. And there's a certain amount of like visceral feel that you'll know. Like if someone wants to make a nose product for breathing, I have tried every product since I was in eighth grade. So it's been 20 plus years, 30, whatever, a lot of years that since then, and I've tried everything. And so I know the pros and cons of every product that exists on the market. And I can tell, because and I've done, it's not like, oh, I tried it for a day. It's like, I'll try things for a month at a time. And so I have so much time exposure to this problem that I have a lot of nuance in my opinion on what's wrong with the solutions.

• 25:56Alex Hormozi?

  So I can formulate a way better hypothesis on how to fix it.

• 25:59Steven Bartlett?

  And that hypothesis would be for an investor so much more compelling because you lead with a story as opposed to logic.

• 26:06Alex Hormozi?

  I met the guy who invested in Regal Cinemas, which is probably the biggest chain in the US. And it was when it was, there was a guy had just one theater and it became, but now it was COVID has disrupted that business. But you know, for 20, you know, years, whatever they crushed. And he said, it was so weird to say that, oh, cinemas are going to make a comeback because they've kind of been on a downturn or something like that during the time that he was making the investment. And he said, the reason I decided to invest in it was because this guy knew everything about the business down to how much the cost of kernel of popcorn was. And he just knew it so like the back of his hand that he was like, this guy can't fail. Like he just knows too much about this business to not have it work. And so in investing in, you know, making a gazillion dollars. And so, but I think that, that's deep understanding.

• 26:49Alex Hormozi?

  And if you look at all of these, the passion things you'll have deep understanding because you're spending all of your discretionary time pursuing this passion. The pain, you have a deep understanding of the, of the problem and the prospects going through it because you've experienced it probably for years. Now, the professional one, I would say is a bit of a shortcut. Because if you're quitting the job because you don't like it, and then you say, I'm now going to do this for myself. Well, you're, okay.

• 27:16Alex Hormozi?

  I mean, well, the one proven point about that is that that one is proven to work from an economic perspective. You will be able to make money doing that because you already have made money doing it. These other two are less proven, but sometimes have a significantly more upside.

• 27:29Steven Bartlett?

  When you were talking about the breathing example with your nose, it's funny because if you had sat down and said to me, Steve, I've made these like breathing nose strips. They are better, they're 20% more durable, they expand your nostrils by 20%. It is multiples less compelling than you telling me that story you just said about being a kid, having breathing problems, trying to solve this problem for yourself. And it's funny because that, that story you told versus the sort of rational, logical approach or the benefits approach is your marketing campaign for the next five years on TikTok and Instagram. It's, I had a problem, I solved it, I tried everything and solved it for myself. There's almost like nothing more compelling and believable.

• 28:06Alex Hormozi?

  No.

• 28:06Steven Bartlett?

  We see that in Dragon's Den. We'll be sat there listening to these pictures all day, then someone will come in and say, I had ADHD, I tried energy products, they all made me crash, so I went out and solved this problem for myself. And we're on edge because we almost can't argue with it at that point, you know?

• 28:21Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. So Besos has this great framework where he talks about missionaries and mercenaries. And so it's kind of like you have the guy who says, okay, I looked at market trends and this is a growing category and, you know, I surveyed people and this was the, you know, the result that came back. And so I believe that if we time this product right, at this point in the market, we'll achieve huge, you know, a mass adoption, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's like logic-ing your way through. And to be fair, some people do, you know, do make it work, but the missionaries, the ones that end up making the most money because like, they do it sure for the money because the business has to have some economic engine behind it, but really because they viscerally experience this problem and don't want anyone else to solve, to deal with that problem either. And so like, if I were to tell that story, like you were saying, like, when I was in

• 29:06Alex Hormozi?

  eighth grade, it was the first year that I started really noticing I couldn't breathe at night. And so I learned how to fall asleep with my hand on my face like this so that my nostril would, so I could fall asleep and my hand would stay. Because you, there's no actually other, because you can't hold your, because you fall asleep, right? And so if I fall asleep with my hand like this, right, like I'm on the couch and I fall asleep like that, it keeps my nostril open and I can fall asleep and it doesn't move. And so that's how I learned how to sleep for years before founding like, just like simple nasal strips and things like that. But there's tons of problems with, with those solutions that exist right now that I won't get into, but maybe someday I'll make a nasal product. I think.

• 29:43Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, literally just.

• 29:46Alex Hormozi?

  Pitch and pitches. I can tell you, if you put, if you put every product in front of me that exists right now, I can tell you what's wrong with it. Cause I've tried, I've tried literally all of them. Not like, I'm pretty obsessive. And so like, I've tried all of them.

• 29:56Steven Bartlett?

  You're missing an opportunity here.

• 29:57Alex Hormozi?

  I've tried, I've tried the ones from Europe. I've tried the, like, not just US. Like, I've tried, I've tried every product that exists on Amazon. I've tried all the ones from foreign countries. Every, every fan or follower who sends me a product that is a nasal company that's new, I will try the product. I still do. And there has yet, there's, there's yet to be one that has truly solved it.

• 30:17Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, you should, I mean.

• 30:21Alex Hormozi?

  But I, I think in some ways, so this is actually a really good meta concept here, which is that if you want to be compelling, a demonstration or a model is always more compelling than anything else. And so me even going through that entire narrative, right? Is taking everyone else who's been listening to this on some journey. It's like, if you want to make a compelling pitch for a business, it's like, we pretty much just kind of went through one. And so that's, that's really what it comes down to. It's like, well, what do I do with my business? It's like, create your narrative of why you're even doing this. And if you can explain to somebody why, why they should care about this problem,

• 30:59Alex Hormozi?

  or more specifically, why you care about this problem. I'll tell you this, more investors will like, I might be like, I don't care about kitchen utensils, but this girl certainly does. And I'm sure there's other women who do too. And what everyone wants to see is obsession. And unfortunately, in like, some of the world, I know more in the UK than the US now, like, that kind of perspective of like, just being all in, obsessed with stuff has almost been like bastard or like, you know, been chastised. And I, but the people who are obsessed are the ones who changed the world. At least changed their world. And, and I think that. So a very close friend of mine did all the Olympic teams nutrition and supplementation

• 31:42Alex Hormozi?

  stuff for a country overseas. And he said, you know, the difference between champions and everyone else? And I was like, what? And he said, everyone always looks at them and says, what do champions have that I don't have? And he said, it's they have it backwards. He said, it's what do champions not have that I have? It's what do they lack? And it's an off button. They just don't stop. And so in dealing with the gold medals, he's like, they just never stop. They just can't stop. Everything in their life is geared towards one goal. And so finding that thing, and they approach everything in their life that way. And I think that that level of obsession around like, everything that you

• 32:24Alex Hormozi?

  touch on a daily basis is required for really getting to where you want to go.

• 32:30Steven Bartlett?

  So interesting, because as we spoke there about the reason why the story was so much more compelling, it was back to the amygdala. It was back to emotion.

• 32:40Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 32:40Steven Bartlett?

  And it's funny, because we said a second ago that when someone's thinking about quitting a job, they're like so in their amygdala, humans run mostly on their amygdala. So when we think about pitching, we should really be aiming at the same part of the brain, which is what you did when you showed me that you were sleeping as a kid with your hand stretching across your face. I immediately felt sorry for you, felt sympathy. And I immediately believed that if anyone's going to solve this problem, it is this fucking guy who's been through that pain.

• 33:02Alex Hormozi?

  I've had two surgeries. Both of them didn't really work. Like, I mean, like, I've got the story.

• 33:06Steven Bartlett?

  My girlfriend's the same.

• 33:08Alex Hormozi?

  What? Oh, really? Yeah.

• 33:09Steven Bartlett?

  Two surgeries, but she's coming up to her third one now. We've tried all the nose strips. I saw you wearing one. I bought that one for her.

• 33:14Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Steven Bartlett?

  And so there's a lot of people watching right now. And there's something going on with these bloody fucking noses.

• 33:20Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 33:20Steven Bartlett?

  People shouldn't like.

• 33:21Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Steven Bartlett?

  We're doing something.

• 33:23Alex Hormozi?

  I feel like I may have popularized some of the nose strip stuff.

• 33:25Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, the goods, the goods, making it cool. Pain, profession, passion.

• 33:30Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 33:31Steven Bartlett?

  Ideally, you have all three.

• 33:32Alex Hormozi?

  If you have all three, then you're, I mean, my god, you're set. Like, if you, if basically pain created an obsession, and for some reason you also are doing something like that in your work, like, I feel like the likelihood that you don't succeed is almost nothing. You only need one of those three. You just pick one. Like, if you just had one pain that you had that you wanted to overcome, or one passion that you were just inherently interested. Because sometimes passion is nothing to, like, you might be really into model cars. It's okay, well, there's a lot of businesses that you can build around model cars. It's like you can, you can manufacture model cars. You can have services around model cars, making them faster, because some people race model cars. You can be a collector and start flipping model cars. Like, you can just make media around how to build them, and then have a media company around it. Like, there's so many different components of any obsession or interest that you can make.

• 34:14Alex Hormozi?

  I was talking to, on one of the future episodes of Mozy Tank that's coming out, we have a guy who's, he loves Dungeons and Dragons. So he's an IT, he's an IT guy, and just loves Dungeons and Dragons. And he was like, I just want this to make enough money that I don't have to do IT anymore. And, but it was so pure, you know what I mean? And so I was like, we're gonna help you do this. And so we kind of walked through the business plan for it. But like, is he going to be a billionaire? No, but I also don't think that's his goal. And so I think being really clear on what you want is important. So if you're like, I want to be the richest person in the world, I think it's a terrible goal, but if you want that, great. Well, you have to have a multi-trillion dollar idea, because now, because by the time that occurs, there's already multi-trillion dollar companies now.

• 34:59Alex Hormozi?

  So you've got to be looking at like, decade trillion dollar opportunity. And so, believe it or not, basically, the bigger the goal, the narrower the scope of the path to get there. If you're like, I want to make $10 million, I'm like, you can literally do that in almost any business. You want to make $100 million? Probably still, almost any business, you can do it. On a long enough time horizon, you can do it. A trillion or decade trillion, it's going to be some sort of tech, it's probably going to have some sort of AI. And so, you get, basically, the bigger the goal is, the narrower the scope of how to get there. But the vast majority of people are like, I want to be the richest man in the world, it's just because they don't know how to, like, really think through it, and be like, alright, well, after like, 100, there's really nothing you can't do. Except buy more big things. But like, in terms of your actual consumption, maybe even 20, is like, you can only eat at restaurants that go so expensive,

• 35:43Alex Hormozi?

  you can only stay at the best hotels, you can only drive the nicest cars, you can do that with about 25 million.

• 35:47Steven Bartlett?

  What do you think the cheat code is then? So I've got my idea. What do you think the cheat code is in 2025 to win at the game of attention? Like, there's got to be some new rules here because we've got AI, we've got new platforms, we've got new media.

• 36:02Steven Bartlett?

  You know, I'm, I'll give you a hypothetical business idea. I'm going to be a personal trainer.

• 36:07Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 36:07Steven Bartlett?

  And I picked that because everyone can do it and it's a saturated industry. If I'm, if I'm a personal trainer in the 2025, how should I be thinking about building attention?

• 36:18Alex Hormozi?

  So I'll tell you what I wouldn't do first, which is I don't think I try and outscience the science people. Because like unless you have some PhD, there is a PhD guy who's already jacked, who's making content. And so he's more knowledgeable and more jacked than you. So you're not going to win there. And so I think in the game of attention, it's trying to find what is unique. Right? And so how do you, how do you quote, stand out when everyone's loud? And this is going to sound trite, but your fingerprint is unique, literally from a biological perspective, but so is your life and your experiences. And so there's, there's real alpha or, or benefit to be had above normal level of effort by leaning into you.

• 37:01Alex Hormozi?

  And so what makes every person unique is what makes their content unique. And so trying to be like, oh, I want to make content like Alex is probably not the best way to do it because you're not going to beat me at being me, but you'll beat me at being you. And so it's basically your flavor of media. So like for me, it's like, you know, what is, you know, my brand to, to, to model this? It's like, well, I have elements of philosophy that are in my brand. Well, do I need that? No, but that's like kind of me. I obviously talk a ton about business, marketing and sales promotion, conversion. Those are all things that I spend a lot of time thinking about. And so a lot of my content's about that. Fitness is a component of my life. And so there's light sprinkling of fitness in my content. Also, I come from a background of fitness with the, with Jim Launch and the companies that I owned before that.

• 37:43Alex Hormozi?

  And so that would make sense that, and I've, my wife, Flaila, and so that sprinkled in. And so like, those are basically the components of my life. And so that's what kind of shines through in my content. I consume a ton of comedy and so sometimes you'll see some dry humor and dark humor that, that shines through, but that's me. Now you have all of those little buckets of you and not only are those buckets unique, but also the proportions of those buckets will be different. And so maybe your philosophy is way bigger or maybe fitness part is way bigger. But I think what makes the truly unique personal trainer, fitness brand is leaning into. People being interested in you for being you. And then being like, by the way, I have fitness stuff if you want to buy it from me.

• 38:25Alex Hormozi?

  And I think the key part is the vast majority of products and services are commoditized. There you're not, you're probably not going to be significantly better than other trainers. Just being real, you probably aren't. But you will be different than them. And we want to lean on, I, I want to buy fitness from somebody. And so I might as well buy it from her or I might as well buy it from him. So you're taking basically the audience that would buy from anyone, but your brand premium gets them to want to buy it from you. And we think about Prime, for example, with the drink, the drink company. Like it's, it's a drink that there's other products that already exist in the marketplace that satisfy the same thing as Prime. But if you are agnostic to that brand and you have brand affinity with that, that creator,

• 39:10Alex Hormozi?

  then you're like, well, then if I have two things that are basically equal and I just like this guy better, I'm just going to, as long as the prices are comparable, I'll just vote with my dollars here. And so I think that if you're a personal trainer in 2025, it's going to be long-term, it's going to be building the content. Short-term, it's going to be outreach to people that you know, and making a compelling offer to get people to try to work with you.

• 39:33Steven Bartlett?

  This overarching point you said there about being yourself. As I was thinking about it, I was thinking, gosh, do you know what? The thing that all of my favorite creators and the really successful creators have in common is they all have, and I use these words intentionally, the courage to be themselves.

• 39:48Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 39:49Steven Bartlett?

  Because I'll tell you what, when I was starting out as a content creator and I look back, I was showing one of my team members the other day, the things I used to post. It was like, everything happens for a reason. It was cringe, cliche fluff. And it took me several years to almost relax into just realizing that the game here was to get to the point where I could be myself on the internet. And actually that was the most high value because of, you know, of what you said, it's the uniqueness part of me. But the courage to be yourself, and it's, it's, it is the winning strategy for 2025. And it's, I think, it's leaning into it. And the thing is, is that everything in you wants to not do that. I'm not really sure why. But I was having a conversation with Leila, I want to say two nights ago or three nights ago.

• 40:32Steven Bartlett?

  I got a bunch of flack for some X posts that I made. And she just looked at me and she was like, never dilute yourself.

• 40:41Alex Hormozi?

  Because I was like, maybe I shouldn't talk about this stuff. Like, maybe I should just like, you know, I'll just lean off. And she was like, never dilute yourself. Like, there are so many more people who need that message than people who are hating that message. And she was like, and if you're actually going to make a difference in a lot of people's lives, there's going to be an equal and opposing force of people who want to reject that. And she's like, this just comes with the territory of like, how big of an impact you want to have. It was just such a great, you know, wife talking to husband, you know, conversation. That I guess for me, at the end of the day, I'm like, as long as she thinks I'm cool. Like, you know, I'll keep doing it.

• 41:20Alex Hormozi?

  But, um, but yeah, it was just, uh, because the diluted down version all of a sudden becomes everyone else's stuff.

• 41:29Steven Bartlett?

  Well, you said a second ago, you're not sure why that is. But by very definition of it being unique, that that means that there is no blueprint.

• 41:37Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 41:38Steven Bartlett?

  There is no person that's come before you and proven that it works. So the courage of being yourself, there's only one Steven Bartlett. So if I'm truly myself, it's never been done before. That means that the risks are unknown, the upside's also unknown.

• 41:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 41:50Steven Bartlett?

  But so again, going back to our hate of uncertainty, it makes much more sense for me to try and copy you, because I can see a blueprint there than to run the risk of being yourself. And you are someone, I have to say, who is running the risk of being yourself. And actually, as someone who's observing you, now I know who you are and I now know who you're not.

• 42:10Alex Hormozi?

  Hmm.

• 42:10Steven Bartlett?

  And it's important for me, as someone that follows your work.

• 42:12Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 42:13Steven Bartlett?

  That actually I see consistency because I've established Alex and Rosie's values.

• 42:17Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Steven Bartlett?

  And anything that diverts from that is actually less valuable because as you say, it's more like everyone else and the things I've had before. But it's also, it wouldn't feel true anymore.

• 42:26Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Steven Bartlett?

  And, um, and this is something that even as a creator myself, I have to fall back on is my audience know who I am now. For better or for worse.

• 42:35Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Steven Bartlett?

  They're not going to learn anything new.

• 42:37Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. You know, what's really interesting is navigating the gray. And so there are contradictory ideals. And this is what I kind of come back to when I'm, when I'm like worried about these types of things, which is like, you've got mercy and you've got justice.

• 42:54Alex Hormozi?

  They're somehow opposed and they are both ideals. So how can we believe in justice and also believe in mercy at the same time? And so, and I mean, there's, you can have variety and consistency. Like there's, there's tons of examples of this, right? And so we have these diametrically opposed ideals, which means that if you ever say, by the way, I'm a little bit more of a justice guy. Like, I understand they had a hard time, but at some point you gotta take your own personal accountability. So like, no, you're not gonna get out of the speeding ticket. You're gonna get like, that's what's just. On the other hand, it's like, hey, single mom gets pulled over for driving too fast. You know what? Maybe we let her off today.

• 43:33Alex Hormozi?

  Both of those stories, fair, but you're gonna get attacked by the other side that has an ideal that all humans try to strive for, and it will feel terrible because they are right, and so what? And so I think that, like, understanding that that conflict will always exist between two apparent ideals that, and this is fundamentally what politics is, right? Is that there are two apparent ideals that, that all of us, I would say, 99% of people would say, justice is good, mercy is good, variety is good, consistency is good, right? Respecting values is good, so is innovating and doing new things. How can we have both of these contradictory ideas and at the same time like navigate that without conflict? You can't, because how much becomes the question?

• 44:18Alex Hormozi?

  And so I think that your thumbprint as a creator is that when someone presents a scenario and says, does Alex choose mercy or justice in this scenario? That your audience says, gets it right. And so I think about branding in general as basically a mosaic that you get to create. And so like each piece of content is a little tile that has a single color on it. And if you just see one piece of short content of Steven Bartlett, you'll, you don't really have an idea who Steven Bartlett is. But if you see a thousand of them, all of a sudden you zoom out and you get to see the whole picture. And I think that the, the colors that are in those mosaics and the, and the proportion of how many yellows, how many reds, how many greens, and where are they is what ultimately creates the brand.

• 45:00Alex Hormozi?

  And so, um, because people wanna try and turn this into, okay, so I make one post about family. I make one post about finances. I make one post about whatever, right? It's like, I don't think that's how it works. I think you just be you and then those proportions will naturally shake out. And also, over time, you will change. And so it also makes sense that your brand will change. And that was also another thing that I had to reconcile, which is like, wait, I don't know if I agree as much with some of the things that I said 10 years ago. Because the thing is, in the digital world, like, my first podcast was 2017, July of 2017.

• 45:33Steven Bartlett?

  Wow.

• 45:34Alex Hormozi?

  Episode eight is called Stop Branding.

• 45:40Alex Hormozi?

  I have changed my views on branding, to be clear. But that first podcast is 90 days from when I lost everything.

• 45:49Alex Hormozi?

  And so the entire, the entire, like, Hermosy journey, if you want to call that, from zero to billion, is actually documented 90 days from zero. It's all there. And so you can see how my views on business have changed and like, what I was thinking about at every kind of portion of my life. And so I had to just be okay with the idea that like, I will change my mind because I will get new information. Because let's take the alternative stance. If I get new information, do I just keep parroting what you did before? This is also an issue with politics. But is it like, he's flippy floppy? It's like, so they're not allowed to learn?

• 46:21Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 46:23Alex Hormozi?

  You've been in politics 20, like, you haven't learned anything? Like, no stances changed? Like, I feel like we should be able to do that. And obviously, brands don't work that way. So it has to be gradual over time, which I think if you are always you at all times, it will be gradual over time.

• 46:36Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. I don't know. I think a lot of the time we end up over focusing on unreasonable people, which is a war we can never win anyway. Because you say that to me, I think, I think it was like, I had this, this guy, the therapist on my podcast, who I then spoke to after the podcast. And he basically broke it down to me. He was like, there's 20% of people that just absolutely love everything you will ever do. Like, you could say anything, you change them, they're fucking, they're just super fans. There's 80% of people that are actually like, he said, there's 60% of people that are really reasonable. They don't speak.

• 47:04Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 47:05Steven Bartlett?

  They just watch, they're like reasonable.

• 47:06Alex Hormozi?

  The silent majority.

• 47:07Steven Bartlett?

  And then there's 20% of people with, no matter what the fuck you do, they're gonna be, which is like, don't spend your life focusing on the 20%. The quiet majority, the 60%, they don't tweet, they just chill. And then the 20%, you know, they're your evangelists, but. You know, I find myself falling into the trap of.

• 47:23Alex Hormozi?

  So what's interesting about the 20% is that like, I was thinking about this today. The your, so no matter who you are, you're going to be disliked, period. Because no one's liked by everyone. So we just have like, if we can accept that as a premise, right? No one's gonna be liked by everyone. You might as well be disliked for being you than being somebody else.

• 47:40Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 47:42Alex Hormozi?

  At the most basic level, you, the being disliked is a fixed cost.

• 47:48Alex Hormozi?

  And I think to, to, to take the opposite perspective, I think it is far better to be disliked for being who you are than love for someone you're not.

• 47:55Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And one, one of the great entrepreneurs I interviewed on the podcast said to me, when it comes to marketing and branding and this sort of attention conversation we're having. She said to me that in order to reach your 80%, you have to piss off your 20%. Or at least be willing to piss off your 20%. It was Jane Warung, who's the founder of Demologica, global beauty.

• 48:16Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, interesting.

• 48:17Steven Bartlett?

  With, I think, hundreds of thousands of people. And she sat and said, to get to your 80%, you have to be willing to piss off. No, actually, fuck. She said, to get to your 20%, you have to be willing to piss off the 80%. And from a branding perspective, it makes so much sense because when you stand for something clearly, which you do, you inadvertently stand against.

• 48:36Alex Hormozi?

  You have to. If you draw a line, there's, there's, there's a side on either side and you have to say like, I'm on this side.

• 48:43Steven Bartlett?

  Did you see that Nike ad?

• 48:44Alex Hormozi?

  Dude, I was just going to say that. I was just gonna say that. Yeah, the Willem Dafoe ad?

• 48:48Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 48:49Alex Hormozi?

  Like what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine?

• 48:50Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 48:51Alex Hormozi?

  Just like, it was actually the first time that I'd seen something from Nike in a long time that I was like, this is what built this brand. And I think they have, they had lost their way for a while.

• 49:01Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 49:01Alex Hormozi?

  With like the wokeism and all that stuff. And I think it's like Nike means victory, which means people have to lose.

• 49:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And they were willing to say that for the first time ever.

• 49:10Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 49:10Steven Bartlett?

  I posted it on my LinkedIn and it was 50 50.

• 49:13Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 49:13Steven Bartlett?

  I'd say it was actually more like 80% of people were either neutral or pissed off.

• 49:18Alex Hormozi?

  Really?

• 49:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And 20% of people were like, that is me. I am a Nike person. And for me, when I saw that, I thought, I want to buy some Nike shorts.

• 49:26Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. It was, I mean, it was the first time I actually felt like I had positive brand affinity towards the brand in a long time.

• 49:30Steven Bartlett?

  How important in this game of building and starting is people?

• 49:36Alex Hormozi?

  Very.

• 49:37Steven Bartlett?

  Hiring question.

• 49:38Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 49:39Steven Bartlett?

  I'll tell you why I asked this question because when I look at my portfolio, early stage first founders never seem to understand the importance of hiring in people.

• 49:47Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 49:48Steven Bartlett?

  And I bang my head against a wall trying to convince them that actually the game they're playing is in the word company, group of people.

• 49:54Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. So I'll start with one thing and then I'll answer the question. So I was talking to a mentor of mine and he said, when I was in my twenties, it was all about the destination. He said, when I got to my thirties, I realized it was all about the journey. He said, when I was in my forties, I realized it was about the company. And I was like, I can't wait till you're in your fifties.

• 50:13Alex Hormozi?

  The next one, right? But I thought that was such a profound shift in terms of how he thought about his business success, because he was like, I don't need to be a deck of billionaires. He's like, I'm cool where I'm at.

• 50:24Alex Hormozi?

  And now I just want to do it with people that I like. And so to the question about people overall,

• 50:33Alex Hormozi?

  I believe that the potential of an organization is directly correlated with the aggregate intellectual horsepower of everyone contained within it. And so if you are the smartest person in the business, then, and you can do everyone's job better than everyone in your company, then it means that the limit of the business is purely based on one person's horsepower and one person's life experiences.

• 51:00Alex Hormozi?

  And that will be the cap. And basically, it doesn't matter how smart you are, you can't live 100 lifetimes. Like you can learn quickly. Sure, there's some people who can learn faster than others, but you're not going to be able to live 1,000 lifetimes. And so as a business grows, more expertise is required. And I think the easiest litmus test for this is if you look at the richest people in the world, almost none of them own 100% of their business. So number one, most of them don't even own 50. Like, most of them are small percentages. Jensen Huang's at 4% for Nvidia, Bezos is at 7 or 9% for Amazon. I think Elon's at 20 for Tesla, like, small percentages. And it's because it takes a lot of horses to take a chariot to the moon, right?

• 51:42Alex Hormozi?

  And so, basically, as you put in more intellectual horsepower, the potential peak of the business goes so much, so much higher, so much faster. Keith Rabois from, he was one of the original PayPal mafia guys, has a really good analogy for this. And he talks about it in terms of barrels and ammunition. And he says, so As soon as you get some product market fit, the business starts to grow and you say, "Okay, we need to start shipping things faster." And this works the same with the services business, a physical products business, software business. The concept's the same. Instead, so what happens is you then hire a lot of people and you assume that your throughput is going to increase proportionally. So we have 10 people, we hire 50, we should 5X our output. And then you quickly realize that that is not the case. And so what happens is there are people

• 52:27Alex Hormozi?

  who are rate limiters for an organization and those are the barrels. So think about like a civil war barrel, you know, old cannon, and you've got these cannonballs next to it. He said, "Most people are ammunition." And so you bring more ammunition, but you're still going to be limited by the one barrel capacity of how many shots can get taken by the barrel. And so you need to find more barrels. So you have to go from one barrel to two barrels, two barrels to three barrels. And that becomes an increase in capacity or throughput for the organization. And there are very few of those. In a different, I can't remember the law, but it's some organizational law, but the square root of the number of people in a company generates 50% of the work. So you have 100 people in an organization, 10 people are responsible for 50% of the value that's created. Facts. Right.

• 53:10Alex Hormozi?

  Anybody who's been in a, like, you're like, "Preach." And so the thing is, is I think the real game of entrepreneurship is that your standards rise over time. And it's unfortunate because we hear things that other entrepreneurs tell us, "It's all about the people, stupid." And then you're like, "Sure, but look at my..." And it's like, not, you're not hearing it. And I don't know, there are some, I think Williamson talks about this, how there's like some lessons that for some reason, it's like we have to learn for ourselves. I still believe that it's like we can operationalize this at a lower level so that we don't have to learn for ourselves. But like, I'm convinced, I haven't figured it out yet. But, so every entrepreneur can resonate with this, which is every business that I've started, I've gotten to the success of the business prior way faster.

• 53:56Alex Hormozi?

  And I kind of liken it to a video game where it's like you beat level one. And then, you know, you get to level two and it's like you spend months trying to beat this boss. And you finally figure out how to beat the boss and it's like, great. And then you spend another three months getting, beating boss three. And then say you start the game over with a new character. It's like you just zoom through level one, two and three, and then you get to level four and you're like, shoot, now I gotta spend time. It's like Virgin Land, like I don't know how to beat this yet. And so I think that that happens for archetype finding, for skill and talent within an organization. And so, say that again. So if you have functions across an organization, there are people who are going to drive results within that function. And the first time you hire a salesperson, for example, you don't know what you're looking for. And so you just hire a human who says they can sell.

• 54:41Alex Hormozi?

  And maybe they can, maybe they can't. And then you cycle, you try to train them, that doesn't work, does work, whatever. And then finally, you, let's say you cycle through three sales guys and finally you find a killer. And then you have this pattern recognition, you're like, okay, that's what I'm looking for. And then all of a sudden you try and approximate that person or that archetype as, as much as you can. And so when you start your second company, you're like, oh, I can quickly staff up sales because I know what I'm looking for. But then you're like, shoot, I've never really nailed sales manager yet. And so then you cycle through, you start, you start whacking away at the boss and then you have to end up firing the boss at a level because you're like, oh God, this didn't work. And then six months are gone because you had to find them, recruit them, hire them, train them, and then find out they sucked. And then start over again. And maybe it takes 18 months to really find the right sales manager. And then you're like, okay, I know what that looks like, but I still don't have a director of marketing.

• 55:26Alex Hormozi?

  What does that look like? And so it's basically developing this pattern recognition across all functions of the business so you, that you know what exceptional looks like. And then over time, what happens is as a business grows, your ability to attract talent increases. And so then your standards also grow. And then you find out that there's even more nuance to this, which is that there is a director of sales at a one to $10 million level, which is a different looking person from 10 to $100 million level. And it continues to go all the way up. And so it's basically building this repertoire of identifying patterns. And what, if you talk to, I would say more experienced entrepreneurs now, they don't talk about building businesses. It's like assembling them.

• 56:07Alex Hormozi?

  You just assemble the pieces and you just know that this is how it's all going to flow together. And That fundamentally is basically what I try and decode within the content that I have. So that it's like, here's a pattern for how you recognize this. Here's a pattern for how I recognize this, so that you can just move faster through the levels to get to where you want to go. And so to loop back to the original question, which is how important are people in an organization? People are the organization. And so if you ever want to build enterprise value, it's building the collective consciousness of the organization, the skills and how they collaborate together towards a specific outcome. And so knowing how to staff that up is the job.

• 56:46Steven Bartlett?

  I think the reason why first time founders feel like they have to learn this lesson themselves is because everything you've just said is an unknown unknown. Like, they don't even know that they don't know it. So they stumble, they hire the sales guy because they were their friend from high school and then fucking. And then they go through the pain. And I say this because I'm so unbelievably passionate about it. I went through the same BS. I hired my friend who worked at Prada to be our account. I hired a guy I met at a rap battle to be my marketing director, who was literally playing video games for a living at 30 years old. And I went through this whole thing. And then maybe three, four years into my first business, I accidentally hired someone great. Like through no intention of myself, accidentally. And I saw the net impact they had and I thought, oh my God. Over the coming years, I learned that the game, the fundamental game here was, as you said,

• 57:31Steven Bartlett?

  assembling the best group of people. How, if I'm a first time founder, can I put a system in place to make sure that even though I don't know what a good salesperson looks like, even though I don't know what an ex good person looks like, I still attract them to my company?

• 57:51Alex Hormozi?

  The simplest way of doing it, so the simplest way of attracting somebody to your business when you don't know how to do the job or know who to look for, is to unfortunately do the job yourself. And then, once you can break down the job, we follow three Ds, which is document, demonstrate, duplicate. That's how we train anybody. So first, you have to document everything that you do to successfully do the job. And that's step by step into a checklist. Then you demonstrate. So you do this checklist in front of the person that you're trying to bring on. Then they duplicate, they do the checklist in front of you. What's interesting about that three step process is that you'll often find when you try to demonstrate following the checklist, you don't follow your checklist.

• 58:33Alex Hormozi?

  And so then you have to adjust the checklist until you actually follow the checklist. And then when you can consistently follow that checklist and get the output, then you can have them do that checklist. And so I think this is why bootstrap founders, I think oftentimes will find they, they tend to know more about more things because they had to learn them in order to teach them. Now, what's really interesting about what you said about accidentally finding that, that star at three or four years in is that I think that happens to almost everyone. Well, hopefully it happens, but the people who end up making it, it happens to almost everyone. Because then you realize, oh my God, like if I had four of these people, like we could change the world.

• 59:09Steven Bartlett?

  Can I say something as well? The other epiphany revelation I had was the star hired stars. And so I think her name's Katie Leeson, of the 10 people she then hired, nine of them became the best people in my company. And also, I'm not going to say his name, but someone else in my business, a C player of the 10 people he hired. He and everyone he hired was fired.

• 59:31Alex Hormozi?

  So one of the, it's, so as you go up in the organization with hires, the risk and reward goes up. And so that's something that a lot of people don't like talking about, but I will. Which is if you hire somebody and let's say that they're not a cultural fit, maybe they have the skills or they are a cultural fit and they don't have the skill fit and they're a leader. What you find often, and it sucks, is that everyone, it's almost like, it's like a tree that has an entirely rotten branch. It's like you end up having to scoop out three quarters of what was underneath because you realize that they were ineffective or they just were against the actual mission of the business. And it's, it's harrowing and it's horrible. But I try to give this analogy to my team because we've had to do it in every business.

• 1:00:15Alex Hormozi?

  Like it happens, it's just part of business is if somebody goes to the bar and you're at the club and somebody racks up, you know, just ordering shots for everybody, shots, shots, shots, shots, shots. And then that guy dips, that guy leaves.

• 1:00:32Alex Hormozi?

  We all have to pay the bill. In the moment, when we pay the bill, when we scoop out the dead wood, when we scoop out the rot from the organization, it feels horrible. But that pain isn't because the scooping out the rot is bad. It's because we planted it on bad ground, or because that guy ordered all these shots but couldn't afford it. And I have a different analogy, because I really want to drive this home because I think it's important, is that in the relationship world, if one spouse tells the other spouse, "Hey, I cheated on you. I had an affair." That moment is incredibly painful for both parties. And so what it makes you think is, oh, this was wrong to tell the truth. But it's not wrong to tell the truth. What's wrong was cheating.

• 1:01:16Alex Hormozi?

  When you tell the truth is when you make it right. And so the pain that you often have to encounter in the organization feels wrong, but is right because you're righting a wrong, and that's where the pain occurs. And that's why so many businesses stay stuck, is because they have this affair, they have this person, and they're unwilling to have that hard conversation, or multiple, in order to make it right, and they stay stuck for years.

• 1:01:40Steven Bartlett?

  This is another quality of really successful founders that I've noticed, which is what you've just said, is the ability to have the hard conversations sooner. And in my first, in my portfolio where there's first-time founders, they're coming to me and in our monthly meeting saying, "God, there's this guy who's running the econ division, and he's so bad, and I'm having to do the job for him. What do I do about it, Steve?"

• 1:02:02Alex Hormozi?

  What do you think?

• 1:02:06Steven Bartlett?

  But then they come back to me two weeks later, and they're like, "He's still there."

• 1:02:08Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, right. And a year later, and you're like, "It's still John." And you're like, "What are we talking about here?"

• 1:02:12Steven Bartlett?

  I remember asking at one of such meetings, "Does John know that you're unhappy with him?"

• 1:02:17Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:17Steven Bartlett?

  No.

• 1:02:19Steven Bartlett?

  So there's this quiet dissatisfaction, which I think is a virus, right?

• 1:02:23Alex Hormozi?

  Right. And what no one wants to discuss is the fact that everyone else knows John sucks.

• 1:02:27Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 1:02:28Alex Hormozi?

  And that that becomes the minimum standard for what is acceptable for excellence in the organization. And so I think, like, so if brand is what your reputation is externally, I think culture is kind of what reputation is internally. And so I define culture, operationalized, because I think culture is a very fluffy word. What does that mean? Right? It's the rules that govern reinforcement within an organization. What do we reward? What do we punish? And so the thing is, is that there's, realistically, there's, like, people have values because they're bundled terms that ladder up many behaviors. If I said... Rolls Royce probably would have some value that's quality over speed, probably. Right? And so they would have that, but somebody would have to say like, well, what does that mean?

• 1:03:08Alex Hormozi?

  Right? Well, we hope that we use this as a decision-making filter for how it affects behaviors on every situation. So that when you're in the should I go fast or should I make it right? You make it right. And there are other organizations, kind of like the speed, uh, justice and mercy, speed and quality. Both of them are important and sometimes they sit diametrically opposed. And so it's like, we have to say, where do we sit in the gray? So that we can duplicate decision-making across the organization so that we can maintain the culture. And so culture, uh, you know, layless this is a lot, but culture, I think this is a Drucker quote, actually. Uh, culture trumps strategy like twice a week and every day on Sunday. If you have a mediocre strategy, but an unbelievable culture, you will crush somebody who has a great strategy and a terrible culture. Because culture ladders up to performance and execution.

• 1:03:53Alex Hormozi?

  And almost every business is limited by execution, not strategy. Most business strategy isn't that complicated. Like, let's do a really good job, so good that people tell their friends about us. And as long as you have enough gross margin, we'll make money. It's not that hard, right? It's just that the doing it is the hard part. Yeah. And so, so when we have these, uh, they are the spoken and unspoken roles, mostly unspoken. If someone shows up three minutes late to a meeting and there's 10 people in the meeting and it's supposed to be a marketing meeting and I'm there. If I don't say anything, I have now said, we have an unspoken rule that if someone shows up three minutes late to a meeting, it's okay. I've, I've reinforced that rule. Now, if I, I've reinforced it by not punishing the behavior or at least calling it out. On the flip side, if someone comes in and I berate them, that's also a way of changing behavior.

• 1:04:37Alex Hormozi?

  Maybe not the right way to do it. But I could then, like, what do you do in that situation? Someone shows up three minutes late. First off, you would probably sideline with that person and be like, hey.

• 1:04:51Alex Hormozi?

  I don't know if you realize that you were three minutes late. What happened? And they're like, I was on a client call. It went late, I'm really sorry. Or I was on a sales call. For me and my organization, clients and sales like will take priority. So if you have a meeting and you're on a sale and you're about to close it, close the sale. But if you were just doing nothing and we have this meeting, then this is the priority. And so the next time we hop on, I'll be like, hey, guys, I just want to address something. John was late. He was late because of a sales call. Or when I DM'd him right as he got on late, I would say, hey, make sure you say that. And then be like, hey, guys, sorry, I was late. I was on a sales call. And then I would say, that's fine. You're good to go. Always go make money. And then I'm reinforcing the right thing.

• 1:05:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Alex Hormozi?

  Right? And so I think we're very big on rapid feedback in the moment because that's how you train behavior. So if you look at, if, so there's tons of studies on this, but basically if you want to train a dog, right? And you want it to sit. If you have it sit and then immediately give a biscuit, it learns really quickly. If you have it sit and then wait 10 seconds before you give a biscuit, it takes like three times as many repetitions for it to learn that the, that the sitting gets the biscuit. If you wait more than a minute, it never learns.

• 1:06:04Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 1:06:05Alex Hormozi?

  You can see the learning curve, the amount of repetitions just skyrockets until eventually there is no amount. But here's where it gets crazy. That biscuit is still reinforcing something, just not sitting. It's reinforcing the thing that just came before it. So if we want people to do something, we have to change it in the moment. And so when we train, and I think that we're, we're a training organization, we're very good at training whatever skills, is engineering ways to give many feedback loops in a short period of time around specific skills. So I use sales because it's one that everyone understands. If you're training a script with someone at the, if you, if you let someone read through a script and then at the end you say, hey, you know, here, here's the things you could have done better, blah, blah, this is how 95% of people train. It's also doesn't work.

• 1:06:51Alex Hormozi?

  We set the premise with you're going to read through the script. And in the first 30 minutes, we might get through a third of it. And I'm going to probably stop you like 30 times. And if that happens, it means we're doing it right. So we set the premise that I'm going to interrupt you a bunch of times. And as soon as you say the first line, I'm going to be like, stop. Say it again. Say it like this. Go again. And then they're like, okay, and they say it and I'm like, awesome job. Do it again. Awesome job. Do it again. So I reinforce it as many times I can. Okay, go to the second sentence. Right now do first and second, right? Do second and third, right? And you keep working your way through until eventually they just say it like a whistle. They can sing it because they've also had so many repetitions and so many feedback loops that they're like, this is what it sounds like when it's right. And I think that the vast, vast majority of organizations have no idea how to train.

• 1:07:32Alex Hormozi?

  And their entire training, their, their way of getting talent is just, uh, let's hire 10 and we'll just see who works out rather than being able to take someone and level them up. And I think that the ability to train is one of the largest alphas that exist in organizations. Because if you can buy talent at, at B skill and get them to A plus, then you net the delta and profit between what you had to attract and pay the person to come and what they perform at. If you have to use a picking strategy, then you have to pay for, for current market rate of the skill. And so you actually eat into margin because you don't know how to train. There are advantages to speed and sometimes it still makes sense to bring in the talent because maybe the training requires so much time that it's not worth it.

• 1:08:15Alex Hormozi?

  And so from a hiring perspective, because we were just talking, this is the theme. We always want to hire for the smallest skilled efficiency. And so in low skilled labor, for example, if we have a cupcake bakery and I need somebody to work the counter, that is pretty low skilled labor. And so if there's a number of skills that are required, being able to be on time, smile, be nice, those things are bundled terms that have many skills underneath of them. Right? Whereas teaching someone how to use the register might take like 30 minutes. And so it makes sense to hire for attitude and then train aptitude when you have low skilled labor. When you have really high skilled labor.

• 1:08:56Alex Hormozi?

  I can't teach someone 10 years of being a CFO for M&A. This is an extreme example, right? And so in that instance, we still hire for the smallest skilled efficiency. But I can probably teach someone to be nice under these circumstances faster than I can teach them to be a CFO. If they have everything that I want here, obviously you would want both, but the world isn't perfect. And so we just try to hire for the smallest skill gap. And attitude is a series of skills. And so instead of thinking of things in attitude and aptitude, just think of everything as skills. And then we hire always for the smallest deficiency.

• 1:09:30Steven Bartlett?

  The thing that's easiest to train up.

• 1:09:32Alex Hormozi?

  Yep.

• 1:09:32Steven Bartlett?

  Okay. One of the things that's so central to that is we were saying about giving people feedback. And I wrote down, most companies and most entrepreneurs and founders are scared to give petty feedback.

• 1:09:44Alex Hormozi?

  Oh.

• 1:09:45Steven Bartlett?

  Because if, like, I might notice you making a slight error.

• 1:09:49Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Steven Bartlett?

  But it feels petty to point that out. It feels like I'm some kind of rude dictator.

• 1:09:53Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:55Steven Bartlett?

  Why is that so important? And how do you create an environment?

• 1:09:58Alex Hormozi?

  I'm totally good at that.

• 1:09:59Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I know, but a lot of people aren't. I have lots of managers on my teams and they don't want to offend people. Their central focus is too much on being nice and it's...

• 1:10:06Alex Hormozi?

  Dude, kind, not nice. It's one of our, one of our, one of our cultural, you know, I wouldn't say it's not the one on the site, but things that are repeated internally all the time, kind, not nice is one of the big ones, which is that you're actually being unkind to someone by not maximizing the likelihood that they succeed in their role. And people don't lose jobs because typically because of one thing. It's usually 100 small things. And so if we can immediately fix those 100 small things, most people want to do a good job and most people want to succeed and most people want to move up. And we can maximize the likelihood that those things occur if we help them. And this is where the culture is there. If on that first day, like I said, we say, we're going to work through the script and we're only going to get through a third of it. I'm going to stop you 30 times to correct you.

• 1:10:49Alex Hormozi?

  We've already kind of set the expectations of how things go here. Like, we will fix things and we will fix them fast. And it's understanding the difference, and I, we teach our teams this, is what is the difference between insult and criticism? So criticism is a discrepancy between actual and desired. So you're supposed to be on time and this week you were late twice. And so that is discrepancy. And you're lazy is the insult. And so the judgment that's associated with the discrepancy is insulting someone. Pointing out the discrepancy is purely criticism and that's objective. And so if you want to improve the team, remove insults, focus on criticism and tell them what to do instead. And so the easiest way to think through this, I think, is stop, start, keep.

• 1:11:32Alex Hormozi?

  So I'll tell you a real story. So we had, we had a director level, so a relatively high person in the organization who was having behavior issues. Said differently, everyone thinks you're a dick. And so he ended up making his rounds of the executive team and having a sit down with all of them because he was really proficient at the scale. He was a high performer, like good at what he does, just no one liked him. And so he talked to four different executives and the behavior didn't change. And so he finally came to my office and he was like a little bit worried and he was, and he was like, am I going to get fired? And I was like, no, HR will fire you if you're going to get fired. You're not going to be with me. What are we talking about?

• 1:12:15Alex Hormozi?

  But when we sat down, I said, okay, I want to be clear. I want to decrease the likelihood that people call you a dick in the future. I was like, does that sound like an agreeable goal? And he said, yeah, I want that. I was like, okay, good. I also don't care if you are a dick. I just care that everyone else thinks you are. And so I just want to minimize the likelihood that I get drawn into this ever again. So the reasons that they are calling you a dick, we need to dive into that. Because every other conversation you'd had with, you know, some of the leaders was just like, hey, man, stop being a dick. And the thing is, is what do you do with that? Nothing. You just get insulted and then you have nothing to do. And so instead it's like, okay, when you cut people off when they talk.

• 1:12:58Alex Hormozi?

  Stop, start, keep doing. Do this instead. Shut up. So when someone else is talking, wait until they finish. And if you're not sure, ask if they're done. He's like, okay. When you give unsolicited advice on how they should run their department, don't, or ask if they want it. If they say no, don't say anything. And so we identified three or four behaviors that he was doing. And I said, just do this instead. And literally the next week, people were like, what happened to him? He's like a new man. And the thing is, is that he wasn't a dick. He just didn't know how to behave. And so if you want to teach, teaching has to come from conditions and a behavior. And so if you're trying to get someone to be different,

• 1:13:43Alex Hormozi?

  you have to give them the conditions under which they need to change. So when someone says this, if this occurs, there's a condition. And then this is what you need to do. And so the vast majority of training that exists does none of that. It's just people shouting at each other, insulting them and saying, hey, you need to level up. You need to, you need to get, you know, you need to increase your performance. What does that mean? And so I think one of the easiest ways to identify the actual behavior, because that's actually the tough part is like, why do I think he's a dick? Why do I think she's lazy? Because I want to insult them, but that's not, so how do I help her? It's like, okay, why am I describing her this way? Okay, so when I slack, she's, she tends to be slow in her response. So sometimes it takes an hour, sometimes it takes three hours. I'm like, okay, so I'm going to gather that data and be like, okay. So when I talk to her, I'm like, I'm going to have this, this branch of data.

• 1:14:28Alex Hormozi?

  The next thing is when I get stuff, you know, projects from her, they are incomplete. I feel like they're not all the way fleshed out. I'm like, okay, that's a second, second bucket. The next one is that when she shows up on Zoom, she looks disheveled. I'm like, okay, so now when I talk to Sandy, I'm not going to say, hey, Sandy, you look lazy. Need you to level up a little bit here. Otherwise, we're going to have issues and have to put you on a PIP, performance improvement plan, right? Instead of saying that, just put her on the performance improvement plan without saying it's a performance improvement plan and just say,

• 1:15:02Alex Hormozi?

  When you show up on calls, change your background to like the standard company setting. So we don't see your bedroom, right? And and make sure that from the waist up, you look professional. And what do I mean by look professional? Have a collared shirt and put your hair back. Okay, now some people like, how does that work in woke politics? No idea, deal with it in your country. But like, you should have a culture where you can say stuff like that. The second thing is that right now I need you to turn on Slack notifications and I need you to respond within within 10 minutes. Okay, during work hours, after work hours, fine. But you know, nine to five, you have to respond within 10 minutes. Do you think you can do that? Yes. And so the end goal here is like, I will get everyone to stop calling you lazy.

• 1:15:41Steven Bartlett?

  It's interesting because it goes back to something you were saying earlier, where you were saying specifics versus vague.

• 1:15:46Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:46Steven Bartlett?

  Prefrontal cortex versus amygdala. Like, an insult is amygdala.

• 1:15:49Alex Hormozi?

  Totally.

• 1:15:49Steven Bartlett?

  Can't do anything with that.

• 1:15:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Steven Bartlett?

  But if you make it specific, then action is more likely to occur and useful action is more likely to occur. On this point of a person who's listening now, who's an entrepreneur, they've got a business and they're thinking about making those first hires. I wanted to throw a proposition at you to see what you thought of this. One of the things that I think can help you not fuck up in the hiring process, especially early, is if you just live with the permanent assumption that you are bad at hiring. So I live with the permanent assumption that I'm bad at hiring because I've got biases. There's things I don't know about certain things, etc. And when you start with that assumption that you are really, really bad at hiring, you try and decentralize the decision making. So one thing I say a lot to startup founders is, if you're hiring a salesperson, create an interview process where there's five people

• 1:16:35Steven Bartlett?

  and one of them might be you and the other four are the best salespeople you've ever encountered in your life. Like, who sold you your house?

• 1:16:42Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Steven Bartlett?

  And ask them to be part of the interview process. How does that sit with you?

• 1:16:48Alex Hormozi?

  I think it sits great. And I think that the amount of references that you go for is proportional to the importance of the role.

• 1:16:54Steven Bartlett?

  Okay.

• 1:16:54Alex Hormozi?

  So Sam, the co-founder of School, when he, so he was a non-technical founder.

• 1:16:58Steven Bartlett?

  Who's School? What is School? Sorry.

• 1:16:59Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, so Schools, School.com is a platform for building communities. Right now it's online, but we have an in-person component so that people can meet online than meet in person. It's awesome. And so that's the only investment that I have publicly associated myself with outside of acquisition.com. So it was a very big deal. It's something I believe in a lot because it's education. It's where education and media meet. Sam is the founder of School and he is not technical. And so he knew that to build an exceptional software product, you need world-class talent. And so he interviewed 600 developers to find Daniel, who would become the CTO of School. And he asked everybody to know who the best coders were.

• 1:17:44Alex Hormozi?

  And then he talked to all those people and then he asked them who the best coder they knew was. And he talked to those people. And then he asked them who they thought the best coder they knew was. And eventually, like, Daniel's name came up as like god tier. And he's like, if you can ever get this guy, he'd be amazing. And so he ended up finding a way in to find Daniel. And then he ended up becoming a co-founder of School as well. And what's interesting about that process is that it actually ladders into rapid learning. And so when I was a consultant, you know, I was 22 years old. And I would go and have to give presentations to four-star generals, right? About weapon systems that I knew nothing about because I was, you know, chugging beers like 12 months earlier. Right?

• 1:18:29Alex Hormozi?

  And so how do you sound intelligent in front of somebody who has 30 years more experience than you do? And so this is the consulting process for rapid learning. First is you find five experts. So you ask the one person, you're like, hey, tell me the five people you know who are the best at this thing. And then you ask them, who are the five people you know who also know a ton about this thing? And for each of the interviews, you take all of their information down of like, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? What do you think of this? And what happens, you start mapping kind of like the information ecosystem. And the reason you talk to experts first is that there's no lack of information. Like you can Google whatever you want. The problem is there's too much. And so the filter becomes where the highest point of leverage is. And so experts have spent years filtering out for what's important.

• 1:19:12Alex Hormozi?

  And so then you basically rapidly consume the most filtered information. And then you reorganize the information. And so this is what a typical analyst will do as a consultant. It's like, I would say for the Space and Cyber Project that I did, I had 600 pages of notes from all the interviews that we did. First step is you re-categorize all the news by category. So it goes from raw notes to categorized notes. Then from there, you distill and consolidate notes into where the... Truths or the most distilled beliefs that we have about these particular, in this case, weapon systems, but it could be whatever. And then from there, you're able to generate your inferences for what the, what it looks like when it's right, what the problems are, what potential solutions might be.

• 1:19:55Alex Hormozi?

  And then that's fundamentally how you say, this is what we need to do next. That's if you're trying to learn something. But in talking to all those people, it actually works the same way because the interview process, the higher up the talent is, the more I would encourage entrepreneurs to use it as a learning process as a consultant. And so I present somebody who wants to come in for this role, the actual problems of the business for which they would have control over and say, how would you solve these? And so then they tell me all the things that they would be considering and what they're thinking about. And then I'll ask the next guy what he thinks and what he thinks and what he thinks or she thinks. And then all of a sudden, one, I get free consulting, which is amazing. But secondly, you can tell by how the quality and quantity of metrics that someone tracks, how good they are at a particular scale. And so this is fundamentally what separates beginners from experts.

• 1:20:40Alex Hormozi?

  And so beginners typically have binary thinking in terms of outcomes. Either it worked or it didn't work. An expert, for example, for a marketing campaign, isn't going to say, oh, marketing doesn't work or ads don't work. They're going to say, this particular campaign didn't work because our click through rate was too low or because it was sending traffic that wasn't qualified and we weren't converting enough on the page. Or we didn't have enough people who were taking the second step in our four steps. And like they can break down any part of those, any part of that continuum. If I'm interviewing a salesperson and the person says, and I say, okay, how are you going to affect these metrics? What behaviors are you going to do? So to the same degree about vague versus specific, if they give me vague things back, I'm going to dial in and say, no, but what are you going to do that's going to change that?

• 1:21:23Alex Hormozi?

  And by the way, this is a wonderful way to teach in the organization, how what they do makes a business money. And so if you have like a customer support rep, for example, and you say, hey, how do you make our company money? If they can't explain it to you, they probably aren't doing it. And it sounds as simple as it is, but if someone says, well, you know, I answer customers' questions and it's like, how does that make us money? Now, if they're able to say, "When I answer customers' questions, I increase the likelihood that they refer us to other customers, and I increase the likelihood that they stay and continue to pay for us. So I help us get new customers by delivering an amazing experience, and I get the customers that we have to continue to pay us. And if it makes sense, I recommend other products and services that we have that I can introduce them to sales guys who can explain that so we can generate even more revenue from them."

• 1:22:08Alex Hormozi?

  I'd be like, "One, if you can articulate that, you're probably not just a frontline customer service guy. You're probably a director, right? And so that level of nuance, the specificity, is what shows expertise. And so when I look for and I'm interviewing for candidates, I first, I want to gather as much information as I can. I want to drain as much knowledge as possible. But I'm also really looking for the quality and quantity of metrics they track and behaviors that they do to influence those metrics. So in the hypothetical problem that, let's say, we're trying to solve, we have low click-through rates, I'd be like, "Okay, this is the problem we have. How would you approach changing it?" And then that actually gets me to understand what they would do in the organization. Because it's very easy to say, "You know, I'm going to come in, and let's say a sales director, I'm going to come in

• 1:22:53Alex Hormozi?

  and I'm going to improve the sales team." I'm like, "Okay, cool. What are you going to do? You know, I'm going to coach the guys up." I'm like, "Okay, what does that mean?" And so just continuing to ask, "What does that mean? How do you do that?" Until they're like, "Okay, well, I'm going to meet with the guys every single morning, and we're going to do role-play." "All right, well, how do you role-play? Well, we're going to start with a script." And we're like, the more detailed they get, the more I believe they can do it because they've actually explained what actions they will take. If someone can't dial it into actions, then it's very unlikely that they're going to take them. And so what I just outlined is basically three core things. So one is the quality and quantity of metrics that they track. The second is the behaviors that they're going to do to influence those metrics. And then, laddering up to third, how do those metrics and these behaviors influence the revenue in the business? If they can explain that clearly, you have a winner.

• 1:23:42Steven Bartlett?

  Requires them to know if the person's not bullshitting.

• 1:23:46Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Steven Bartlett?

  And also to know like what metrics matter, right? Because someone could sit in an interview for my first time founder, say a bunch of big, complicated words. It sounds good. I hire them. And that's really what I'm trying to mitigate here is how do I not let a bullshitter pass me?

• 1:23:59Alex Hormozi?

  I think having them explain it as though you were a fifth grader. And so I always, I make the same joke, because you know, you do this enough times, you make the same joke. It's like, hey, um, I need you to explain this to me like I'm a golden retriever, which is a type of dog. So assume I know nothing. Let's start there. What do you think customer service means? And so if someone really has expertise, so Richard Feynman was famous for the physicist, which is if you can't explain it to a child, then you don't understand it well enough. And so if they do confuse you, then it means that they don't understand it, or they're doing it purposefully, neither of which are good scenarios.

• 1:24:37Steven Bartlett?

  You said something during, during that explanation, you said, you were talking about your, like your founding partner at school. And you said that he was pursuing a CTO and he said, if we can get this guy, he'd be amazing.

• 1:24:50Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:51Steven Bartlett?

  So many entrepreneurs that are starting in business have that thought sometimes. They think if I could just get that guy from that amazing company to come join our garage where we're building this new startup, it would change our fortunes. But how? How do I get a truly exceptional person who is being paid shit tons of money, who has a comfortable job, who has security to come join me in my bedroom?

• 1:25:16Alex Hormozi?

  Well, I think there's, there's the soft and the hard side, right? So the hard side is the, is compensation, maybe you don't have as much cash. So it's like, you're going to have, you know, a few levers at your disposal. So you have, what do you pay them in cash? What's their upside if there's equity or shares that you're going to give them? This is obviously if it's software business, you can, and I'm, you know, it's probably worth segmenting this. So if you're not in a software company, which is probably the vast majority of people listening to this. There are four elements within equity that exist. You have control, so who gets to call the shots? You have risk, what happens if everything goes wrong? Who's liable? You have profits, which is the cash flow of the business. Who gets distributions? And then basically sale or enterprise value? When we sell or if we sell?

• 1:26:00Alex Hormozi?

  Who gets to participate in that upside? Those are kind of the four elements of equity. Now, the thing is, is that you can obviously grant shares or you can give stock in a company. That's one way of doing it. But you can also basically contract around any of these things. Now, most of the times, they don't want the risk. And they probably won't get the control if it's your company. So you really just have profit and you have upside in terms of a sale. And so you can contract these things. And there's lots of structures, so I'm not going to get into the legal around this. But asking somebody, what do you want? Sometimes it's just a very powerful way of beginning this. And my favorite question for these types of scenarios is asking, what would it take? So when you have this guy, it's like, man, it would be amazing. Like, how do I sell this guy?

• 1:26:44Alex Hormozi?

  I just ask him, what would sell you? So say, what would it take? Because I don't know, he'll tell me. And I love that frame because it assumes yes. It assumes you're going to come. So what would it take?

• 1:26:58Steven Bartlett?

  So many of the books that you write and so much of the content you make centers on this idea of sales.

• 1:27:04Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:05Steven Bartlett?

  And it is a sale, isn't it?

• 1:27:06Alex Hormozi?

  Totally.

• 1:27:06Steven Bartlett?

  And I always think about the Steve Jobs quote where he met with, was it John Sculley? Who was working at Pepsi? And he said, you want to continue selling sugar water for the rest of your life? Would you want to come change the world?

• 1:27:17Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Steven Bartlett?

  How does that sort of emotional, psychological element of the sale factor into persuading someone exceptional to come and join your mission?

• 1:27:25Alex Hormozi?

  I think it's the amygdala story that we started with, the nasal strip thing, which now has actually reared its nose multiple times, poked its nose in a few times here. But I think that pitch that you're giving to a potential co-founder or potential early hire who's going to be a leader is the same more or less that you'd give to an investor. It's almost the same pitch. Except instead of investing capital, they're investing time. They're investing their life. They're investing their expertise. But fundamentally, you're asking for investment. I'm just asking you.

• 1:27:51Steven Bartlett?

  There's also this weird question, which I've actually never asked anybody. But founders often struggle with, do I hire naivety? Because that's going to probably create new solutions to old problems, like the young scrappy kid that gets TikTok.

• 1:28:05Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Steven Bartlett?

  Or do I hire experience, which is going to be more expensive, more conventional and safe? And I see some companies lean too far either way.

• 1:28:14Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:16Alex Hormozi?

  I have actually fairly strong opinions on this.

• 1:28:18Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, great.

• 1:28:19Alex Hormozi?

  So I actually think it's, and I was talking to the CEO of ButcherBox about this particular thing last week. I think it's a barbell strategy where you have people on either ends and very little in the middle.

• 1:28:31Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting.

• 1:28:32Alex Hormozi?

  So I love lots of young, hungry people who are here for growth and want to learn and are ready to work long hours and just go all in.

• 1:28:43Alex Hormozi?

  And the people at the, call it the back half of their career that are here, that they've made enough money. They know they can get a job wherever they feel like it. You're not doing them a favor by giving them a job. And they're not, what I, a term I hate, which is careerists. They're not obsessed with their title. They're not obsessed with their career path, what their promotion plan is going to be. They basically have a litmus test, which is like, I have to have make about this to get to come in and do this with you. But they actually just really love the work. And so these people are learning, so the young people are learning and overcompensating with tons of hours and reps. And these people are bringing their experience to the game and creating significantly more leverage with strategy. The people in the middle are the ones that tend to be the pain in the ass for everybody.

• 1:29:29Alex Hormozi?

  And I don't think, and be clear here, I don't think this is actually an age thing. I think it's a perspective thing. So it's just, are you here for growth or are you here to share what you know? And I think that it's the people in the middle that are like, well, I'm bringing something, but I need some. It's like this kind of tit for tat relationship that I would say the vast majority of people that don't work out are in that bucket.

• 1:29:53Steven Bartlett?

  And what role does naivety play in innovation here? Because the kids that don't know the rules.

• 1:29:58Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Steven Bartlett?

  Are more likely to stumble across nuances, right?

• 1:30:01Alex Hormozi?

  I think yes.

• 1:30:05Alex Hormozi?

  You can fundamentally, you can disrupt an industry if you don't know how it's supposed to go. And so, but that's, I think that really teases out something we said at the very beginning, which is

• 1:30:16Alex Hormozi?

  starting from first principles, which is what are the few things I know to be true? And then basically forgetting everything else. And when you build from those assumptions up, you end up building lots of different paths of the mountain that may or may not have been trodden before. I think one of the, one of the, one of the most corroborating things that can happen sometimes is that like you re-derive a solution that already works. And you're like, okay, well now I know why this works. Right? And I think, but I think that's actually, then you have more confidence in the path. And you're like, okay, that's fine, but now I know why we're doing this. Not just because other people did it, but because I understand why it works. And so I think it just comes down to what are the few truths that I know to be true? And going all in on those things, like I know that if customers love my product, they are more likely to tell other people about it than if they hate it. That I feel very confident.

• 1:31:00Alex Hormozi?

  So then we say, okay, what are the things that must occur in order to get someone to quote, "love my product"? AKA increase the likelihood that they tell their friends about it or post about us. And so now there's, and you can break this, and again, this is where quality and quantity of metrics matter. So it's like, how, how much more nuance can I break and break this up into small pieces? So it's like, okay, at what time do we deliver these messages? Around what experiences that have high likelihood of them posting? Can we decrease the friction around them sending friends? How can we make it both easy and how can we incentivize it? And so all of these components, whether it's a service business, a physical products business, a software business, it still works the same way. Is, you know, and for each, each customer, for example, as we're taking someone through this, I have four milestones that I look for, which are the four Rs. So how do I get them to review my product?

• 1:31:45Alex Hormozi?

  How do I, how do I, well, in order it'd be, how do I retain them immediately? How do I get them to review my product? How do I get them to refer somebody? And then how do I resell them? And so they're basically, those four Rs is what I try and take every customer through. It's a very simple framework, right? When you think, I was like, oh man, customer success, what does it mean? It's just like, well, these are the four things that I want to occur. And so all I'm trying to do is reverse engineer what activities increase the likelihood that each of these four Rs happen.

• 1:32:13Steven Bartlett?

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• 1:32:55Steven Bartlett?

  tool and makes it the quick and easy create anything app. Search Adobe Express or download it for free in the App Store right now. Well, I want to go through the four Rs, but I also, I think that what comes before the four Rs is knowing how to get customers in the first place, which was a tricky one. And actually, maybe even the thing that comes before that is being psychologically prepared for the toll and the roller coaster that business is. I found this, um, found this graph of yours.

• 1:33:25Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, God, yeah.

• 1:33:26Steven Bartlett?

  And I think for any founder starting a business, it's important for them to understand this cycle. I think you call it like the crash-burn cycle or something. Because if you're not aware of this cycle, when you hit certain parts of it, you're probably going to think that there's something wrong with you.

• 1:33:40Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:40Steven Bartlett?

  And but there's a certain inevitability to this crash cycle. I'll put it on the screen for anyone to see.

• 1:33:45Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. This is, this is the entrepreneur lifecycle until you learn how to break free from it. And so there are six stages. You have stage one, which is uninformed optimism. This is where you see your friend or you see something online and it looks like they're making money, or it looks like there's some opportunity and you think, oh my God, that sounds amazing. And you have optimism because it looks great, but it's uninformed because you have no idea what it entails. So then you dive in and you say, okay, I'm going to pursue this, this thing, whatever. Is it baking cupcakes or I'm going to, I'm going to do lawn mowing or I'm going to do crypto trading, whatever. Second step is you get into it and you're like, oh my God, I don't know, there's so many things involved in this and this is significantly more complicated than I, I expected.

• 1:34:29Alex Hormozi?

  So then you become an informed pessimist. You now know that it's hard or significantly harder than you expected. The third stage is you have your crisis of meaning or the valley of despair. So you're continuing to do this stuff. It's continuing to not work and you keep working and it keeps not working. And so this is the step and this is the, this is the point of truth. And this is the cycle where the, the paths of the entrepreneur split. And the vast majority of people take this next step, which is they then say, you know what? There's that thing over there that my other friend's doing, maybe I should do that instead. And so then they hop back to uninformed optimism and then they go boom to informed pessimism

• 1:35:11Alex Hormozi?

  and they just go around and around and around and they live the same six months for 20 straight years. Now, the other path of, from the valley of despair is sticking with it. And so then you become an informed optimist because now you understand, you still understood all the bad stuff, but you also understand the good stuff and how to avoid the bad and maximize the good. And then once you're there, you do, you stick on that path long enough and you end up achieving what you originally thought was really easy and fast. And so that cycle, this is more or less the, the Alex Ramosi life story, which is why I can so intimately describe you to the steps, is that I call that loop and that the person

• 1:35:53Alex Hormozi?

  on the other side, the woman in the red dress, which is probably my favorite part of the Matrix movie, which is Neo, who's the main character, is in a program to teach him one thing. And so he's walking through the crowded streets of what looks like a New York city with Morpheus leading him. And he's drawing on about something that he's supposed to learn and he says, Neo, were you listening to me or were you looking to the woman, looking at the woman in the red dress? And, and Neo was looking at the woman in the red dress as Morpheus is talking. And then he says, look again. And he looks back at the woman in the red dress and it's Agent Smith with a gun pointed at his head. And in that moment, he's like, freeze. And he explains that.

• 1:36:35Alex Hormozi?

  You're either one of us or one of them. And they are the people who are sent to destroy us. And so what appears to be the woman in the red dress is actually an agent from the system meant to destroy the opportunity that you're in right now. And so I love the woman in the red dress so much because it's so real. Because you're in this thing. You're in this relationship with your business. And you're like, you know, this girl seems great. And then you get to know her and you find out she snores when she sleeps. And all of a sudden, it's like, you know, you see the sweatpants and no makeup in the morning and you realize that sometimes she's moody, whatever. But you get to, you start to get to know, you're like, I don't know if we're gonna get married. But like, you know, this is kind of where we're at. And then you see a woman in the red dress. And you're like, you know what? I think that's the girl.

• 1:37:20Alex Hormozi?

  And so you quit this relationship with your business and you get into that relationship. But then you realize that that girl has crabs. She has a crazy ex-boyfriend and you're like, oh, my God, I didn't want to deal with any of this stuff. Right? And so my CFO, so was one of the first people that you're like, oh, my God, I hired that person. It changed everything. So my CFO in Jim Launch had taken four companies from zero to 100 million. She had done over 40 M and A transactions. Her largest one was 5 billion, super experienced. She was the very end of her career. And she was like, I'll take you guys, I'll take this one last ride with you guys. And so, you know, mind you, Leila and I, I'm 26 or 27 at the time. Leila's 23, 24, and we're sitting across the table from a very experienced business person being like, please help us.

• 1:38:00Alex Hormozi?

  And so one of the things that she taught me that I'll never forget is she said, "The grass is always greener on the other side. You just don't know that it's fertilized with shit." And she, and she's southern, so she had this deep southern accent. She's like, there's always shit. Shit everywhere. And so she's like, I've been in enough businesses to know that all businesses have shit. And so you just have the shit you don't know about and the shit you do know about. And you're in this business. And so this is the shit you know. And that has been so profoundly impactful in my life because it was so hard for me to break the cycle. Really hard for me. I mean, I gave you my, my life story of the many businesses that I've been involved in. And so like the entrepreneurial ADD has been so real for me. And I've made some of the biggest career mistakes

• 1:38:45Alex Hormozi?

  by just pursuing and splitting my attention between multiple endeavors. And I can say truthfully that this 2024 was the first year, and this is now 2025, the first time in my life where I haven't experienced FOMO. So fear of missing out. And it was one of those things that I just always had. I would see somebody doing it, and I was like, oh, man, I mean, I should be getting into that like that. I shouldn't be doing this. I'm just doing that. And it was, it was one of those things, kind of like being happy, where like you don't realize you're happy. You just look back and you're like, you know what? That was a really good year, you know, like you kind of like you kind of see it in retrospect. What I realized was that now, when I hear someone say like, oh, my God, I crushed it with this thing. I think that's amazing for them. I'm sure there's tons of problems that I don't know about, and that's amazing. But I'm going to keep doing this thing because this is the only thing I know how to do pretty well.

• 1:39:29Alex Hormozi?

  And I'm just going to keep compounding my information advantage against everybody else who thinks this is easy and wants to get into it. And so I think that that every, any, any massive company that you know of has existed for multiple decades. And in order for something to exist for multiple decades, the founder has to stay focused on that thing for the whole time. And I measure focus by the quantity and quality of things that you say no to. And I measure commitment, or I define commitment as the elimination of alternatives. And so if you think of marriage as the ultimate commitment, then it is the ultimate commitment because you've limited literally every alternative besides this person. And so I think that many business problems and many entrepreneurs would 5X, 10X their business

• 1:40:13Alex Hormozi?

  if they simply gave themselves no way out. This is what I'm doing. And I'm, I mean, the term, you know, burning the boats, but I'm eliminating all alternatives and structuring my life such that I, I make it very difficult to pursue the alternatives. And I think by doing that, you can actually conquer this, this cycle and make it pass the split where you go crash and burn and then restart the doom loop, or make it to informed optimism and then eventually to the achievement that you want.

• 1:40:43Steven Bartlett?

  There's so much there, but it's such an important point.

• 1:40:49Steven Bartlett?

  So where shall I start? So at that moment here, this crisis of meaning moment, what I see so much of is entrepreneurs not necessarily quitting the old thing, but just taking on something else. And entrepreneurs will come up to me in the gym and they'll say, hey, Steve, just want to let you know what I do and see if you can offer me any advice. And then they'll list three things. They'll say, I'm starting this crypto thing with my friend Dave. I've got this hair business where we're selling on e-comm and I've got this other thing. And they almost assume that the more things they're doing, the higher the probability that they'll be successful in something.

• 1:41:23Steven Bartlett?

  My mum was that. My mum has started 30 businesses and I watched from my whole childhood how she would start a hairdressing salon and then the person down the street running an estate agents would come in and say, we're making loads of monies in estate agents. She'd start that. That business would suck. She'd hit this moment of crisis of meaning. She'd then start a furniture business. So she jumped between 20 to 30 businesses and it's kind of still happening now, where they last six months, they eventually go bust. She sort of like, you know, like the monkeys that swing to the next one, swings to the next thing. And there's never been the escape velocity that comes from this informed optimism part.

• 1:42:04Steven Bartlett?

  So yeah, it really rang true for me in every sense of the word. This idea of like a focus, going against all of your instincts and your emotions, but being pivotal to achievement.

• 1:42:15Alex Hormozi?

  I think entrepreneurship is far more a war of the heart than it is a war of the mind. Like we can understand what we should do, we just don't do it. And I think that's why we're so much better at giving advice than we are at following it. So most people, if they just followed their own advice, they'd be successful.

• 1:42:33Alex Hormozi?

  And so with this kind of valley of despair, I call it niche slapping. It's like, don't make me niche slap you, which is like, when you have three things going on, it's like, let me slap you into just picking one. Because the thing is, is that any of them can work, but none of them will work unless you pick only one. Because it's actually, in my opinion, An exercise in arrogance to assume that you doing three things is somehow going to beat somebody who's doing one. And I can promise you, the competitor who is going to beat you is only doing that one thing. And you think a third of your time is going to beat theirs? No, it's not gonna, I think it's arrogant. And so there's actually like an under, there's like

• 1:43:15Alex Hormozi?

  an underpinning of ego underneath of this. And I say this to somebody who did this. So like, when I had the launch business, I also had my six gyms. I also had a chiropractor agency, and I also had a dental agency. And so I would introduce myself, like, oh, I own lots of companies. But I think one of the biggest misconceptions when you're an entrepreneur is not understanding the difference between being an owner and being the CEO. And so they might hear that you have a portfolio, they might hear that I have a portfolio and be like, okay, well, they have a portfolio, so I must model that. That guy's tall, I should play basketball. Doesn't work that way, right? I should be, so if I want to be rich, I should fly private. Doesn't work that way.

• 1:43:49Alex Hormozi?

  It's conflating order. And so we must do these things in order to get the outcome. We have to concentrate on only one thing in order to get the outsized return. And that spreading of attention, especially when you're newer in the entrepreneurial career, it's like you already don't know so many things. How do you now want to have three sets of unknowns that you want to try and conquer at the same time? And the fallacy of thinking is that I'm going to try all of them and see which one works, but none of them will work because you're waiting to see which one will work. Because you can force, in my opinion, you can force one thing to work, provided, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna just assume basics, like, you're selling, you're not selling

• 1:44:32Alex Hormozi?

  five dollar bills for four dollars, like, you know, the normal economics of a business, like, if, if, if, if a real estate business exists, there are other people who are making money. There are hair salon businesses where people are making money. There are lawn mowing businesses where people are making money. You can make money in all of them. You just can't make money in all of them.

• 1:44:46Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, at the same. And it's, when you walked in today and you sat down on the chair, I said, like, what's going on with you professionally? I remember what you said. You said, more of the same and better, which clearly comes from your wisdom.

• 1:44:58Alex Hormozi?

  My infinite wisdom, right? Well, it's just from, from, from, from, from suffering, the, the woes of this, like,

• 1:45:08Alex Hormozi?

  The biggest entrepreneurial mistakes I've made in my career have all come from splitting my attention. Every one of them. Like, every single one of them. Like, I talked about how I had the e-commerce business that I bolted on to my licensing company. I should not have done that. As soon as I did that, my revenue started slowing down in its growth.

• 1:45:24Steven Bartlett?

  Why did you?

• 1:45:26Alex Hormozi?

  Because I was ADD. Like, I was like, oh my, I don't want to leave money on the table. And I want to be so violent about this. You are always going to leave money on the table. That is the result of focus. But you're leaving a small amount of money on the table to pursue the much larger money that's on another table of just sticking with the thing that you're on right now. Because compounding, if I were to show a chart here, it's like, if you're at year three of your thing, and you want to think about moving to year zero of a new thing, you have to compare, maybe year zero of a new thing grows faster, but it has to grow faster than year three to four of the thing that you're on right now.

• 1:46:07Alex Hormozi?

  And I think that's the, people will compare year zero to year zero, but not year four to year zero. And the thing is, is you actually, we have a linear life. And so, that is, it's an unfair but true comparison of the opportunity cost. And every exceptionally successful entrepreneur that I know has just stuck with one thing for such an inordinate amount of time. And I think there's a quote by, I want to say Shane Parrish. He said, "Success is doing the obvious thing for an extraordinary period of time without believing that you're smarter than you are." And it's just like, we know what we need to do, and so, we don't need to make our lives more complex. Complexity will come with scale, I promise.

• 1:46:52Alex Hormozi?

  And so, just simply trying to do more of what you're already doing well is already hard enough. Don't add anything else. And so, like, if you need to write some sort of commitment of like, "I'm just going to stick with this," then do that. But the...

• 1:47:09Alex Hormozi?

  What happens is, we were talking about the levels earlier, about like beating the bosses. So what happens is, you know how to beat boss one through three of the game. And so then you just say, okay, well, I'm just gonna start the game over and beat boss. I mean, this time it's gonna be different. But then you just get to level three again, and then you're stuck again. And so people just keep getting up to level three in new endeavors over and over again, because they never learned how to get past that boss. And so you just have to confront the uncertainty of knowing that you don't know how to do it, but that you will figure it out if you keep doing enough repetitions. And that's where you talk to as many people as you can. You see what they said, you consolidate it all, and you say, I think this is the highest likely path.

• 1:47:54Alex Hormozi?

  It might not work, but I do believe fundamentally that if we cut people's hair well, and we do it for a long period of time, we will have a thriving business. And if we have a really good model for that thing, we might be able to open up another location. And if we keep our costs down, we might be able to have an actual model that we could either invest our own capital or bring somebody else and take it national. Or like, all of these, like, I have yet to find a business that can't get to $100 million a year

• 1:48:18Alex Hormozi?

  that has a permutation of it that exists. You're a dry cleaner, fine, well, cool, we'll build the model. And either we're gonna license the model, we can franchise the model out, we can get outside investors, we can scale it nationally, we can do it. But the crazy goals are only crazy because people have crazy timelines. They're actually very sane goals if you extend the timeline out. If you have a true 10-year goal or a true 20-year goal, almost anything's accomplishable. I mean, almost every multi-billion dollar company is about, you know, they get, it's usually between like years six and 10, when companies get to kind of like those big numbers. And most people who are listening to this are five years into entrepreneurship, but you're six months into the thing that you've been working on right now. And you keep restarting the clock for getting to year 10 every time you start over. And I think that's the part that it took me a very long time to figure out.

• 1:49:03Alex Hormozi?

  And I think it takes a lot of entrepreneurs, like everyone messes around with a lot of stuff in the meeting because you just don't know what you're doing. And so in my experience, it takes about five years for most entrepreneurs that I know to just like find something that works. Like it takes about five years to figure out which way is north.

• 1:49:20Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:21Alex Hormozi?

  And then it takes like another five years. And a lot of people, that's it, like they restart, they go off crash and burn. And it takes another five years to build something that can create generational wealth. So it's about a 10 year slug. And here's the really hard truth about it. If you have a job right now, for almost all of that five years, you quit your job because you don't want to work as hard as you are and you want to make more money. And as soon as you quit, you will realize that you are now going to work way harder than you were and you're going to make less money for an extended period of time. The one benefit is that you get to claim all responsibility for how little you make and how much you work. Because you're like, my boss is an idiot and it's me. But it's the truth.

• 1:50:05Alex Hormozi?

  And I think that in some ways, having that optimistic ignorance is actually one of the really redeeming traits of entrepreneurs. And one of the really hard parts is that the biggest jump you have to make gets so immediately reinforced from the freedom you have from being able to, you know, chart your own path. But that big success of quitting one thing and starting another, you need to immediately forget. And I think that fundamentally, that is why so many entrepreneurs keep doing it. It's because the first time you do it, it's the biggest rush ever. You quit your job, you do the business and you get some first traction.

• 1:50:48Alex Hormozi?

  And that first dollar that you make when the new business, it's like the best dollar ever. Right? But it's such a strong reinforcer that what does it reinforce? It reinforces stopping what you're doing and starting something else. And so I think one of the fundamental errors of entrepreneurship is that sometimes the jumping ship to start this thing is the lesson that you need to immediately unlearn. Because after that, you have to just stick with it for a very long period of time.

• 1:51:15Steven Bartlett?

  There's also something in that entrepreneurs don't go into starting a company with the belief that their hypothesis is wrong. So in year one or seven months in, when they realize that their initial hypothesis was wrong, they think that means abandon ship because my hypothesis was wrong. Whereas successful entrepreneurs that I've met, especially second time founders, realize that their hypothesis is almost certainly wrong from the jump and that the process of starting is to correct and to find a new hypothesis. I think about like Mark Zuckerberg in his room with like FaceSwap or whatever it was, rating people's attractiveness. And now matter is there's like virtual reality AI company. But understanding that your hypothesis is wrong from the jump and that, you know, this is a process of finding a new hypothesis, I think will give you a little bit more patience as well

• 1:52:01Steven Bartlett?

  through these cycles of the crisis of meaning and so on.

• 1:52:05Alex Hormozi?

  So two things. So one is I had this tweet that went like super viral, but it was like, first time founder, hey, I need you to sign an NDA before I tell you my business idea. I know you've gotten it. I know you have. Third time founder, here's everything I have. Here's all the documents. Here's all the projections. It's probably all wrong and this probably won't work. But I have a couple of smart people and I think we'll be able to figure it out. It'll probably cost longer and take longer, cost more and take longer than we think, but we think it's worth a shot. Because everyone who's been on both sides of that understands, like the entrepreneurs got it because they're like, oh my God, I was that guy. And all the investors get it because they're

• 1:52:46Alex Hormozi?

  like, oh my God, I deal with this guy all the time. But actually, what you just said with the many, many iterations that from your original idea until what actually happens is yet again, one of those demonstrations of the difference between a beginner and expert. A beginner has binary thinking. So they think this worked or it didn't work. And if it didn't work, then I need a new idea. Rather than having the nuanced thinking of a master or an expert or advanced person who says, what about this? If I click into it, I break it into its component parts. What about this didn't work? Okay, it's not that meta ads don't work or advertising doesn't work. It's that we didn't nail the hook in our ad or that we didn't make our, our offer clear enough on the landing page, or it was not congruent with the advertisement.

• 1:53:30Alex Hormozi?

  Or, um, you know, it was, the offer itself wasn't very compelling or didn't have, it didn't like, it was just this, we, everyone's coming in and saying, yeah, yeah, I kind of want that, but this is actually my issue. We're not solving the core problem. So it's, it's always in the, in the details. It's always in the sifting through the many small things that you find the kernel that ends up fixing, uh, the business. I mean, I know that, uh, Facebook was trying to fix their virality issue and they were locked in a room for days, trying to figure out how they could get more users to retain on the platform, right? People would sign up, but then they wouldn't do anything and then they, they drop out. And so finally, um, Zuck just said, okay, we have some belief that if people have more

• 1:54:13Alex Hormozi?

  friends, that they will engage. And so they didn't, and here's the thing, like with the uncertainty, they couldn't prove it. He just was like, I feel like that's better than them not having friends. And so he said, all right, the new goal is 10 friends in 14 days. That's the goal. So we have to create the experience so that we can get it to introduce them to 10 people or connect them with 10 people that they already know on the platform within 14 days. And as soon as that happened, then obviously Facebook took off or continued to grow. And so he wasn't like, oh, Facebook doesn't work anymore or social networks aren't going to be a thing. It's, it's usually way smaller and way, the adjustment you need to make is much more nuanced than what you originally expect.

• 1:54:56Alex Hormozi?

  If the foundational principle of like cutting hair, mowing lawns, whatever, it's like, this problem exists and I can charge a certain amount and make a profit on it, then there's nothing wrong with the business. It's just what is the constraint that's holding us back? And then usually zooming into the constraint and realizing there's 20 things that are contributing to the outcome, not one. And that's where expertise and that, and you develop that expertise by trying and failing.

• 1:55:18Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:19Alex Hormozi?

  And that's, and that's just the name of the game. And so I think you have to have an incredibly high tolerance for failure without internalizing it and feeling like you yourself are a failure as a result of failure.

• 1:55:30Steven Bartlett?

  Well, this is it. When I started my first business at 18 years old called Woolpark, social network, whatever. I thought the game was to be right. I came to learn from businesses that came after that actually the game of entrepreneurship is to be successful and they're two very different things.

• 1:55:46Alex Hormozi?

  To win.

• 1:55:47Steven Bartlett?

  Because when you want to be right, you not only want to be CEO and you want your hypothesis that you put in that first pitch deck to come true. And even when customers are telling you that you were wrong, you try and force the fucking hypothesis.

• 1:55:58Alex Hormozi?

  You don't know.

• 1:55:58Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. But when you, when your game is to be successful, there's a couple of really interesting things that I observe happen. One of them is you, I watch founders say, actually, maybe I'm not the best person to be CEO.

• 1:56:08Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:08Steven Bartlett?

  Even though I founded this thing, maybe I should be chief brand officer. When I think about some of the top companies in the UK represent just valued at a hundred million, Jim Sharp, Ben's Business, valued at 1.5 billion, Julian's Business, probably valued at a billion. I'm involved in some of these businesses in different ways. But the thing they all have in common is that some early point, the founder put their ego secondary to the success of the business. They said, actually, I'm not the best CEO. I should be head of brand or marketing.

• 1:56:36Alex Hormozi?

  Product, right.

• 1:56:36Steven Bartlett?

  Or product or whatever it is. And that's that mindset shift from being, I need to be right and I need to be at the helm of being right versus this thing needs to be successful.

• 1:56:46Alex Hormozi?

  And this goes back to the WHO, which is if you, if you, at some point, if you want to have a really ridiculously successful company, it will require more lifetimes of expertise than you can live. And so then it's, it becomes a recruiting game. Like very quickly, almost all business becomes recruiting, which is how do I, I mean, if you, if you listen to Zuck talk about it, you look and you listen to Elon talk about it, you listen to Steve Jobs talk about it. Steve would talk about how the best players that he had in the company, he would set aside like a year to 18 months to bring them in.

• 1:57:18Steven Bartlett?

  Amen.

• 1:57:19Alex Hormozi?

  And he said, every time I, you know, I, I knew who I wanted. And then I would, he's like, you know, I would take some calls with other people and I would just be like, but they're not John. They're not John. And so he would just keep working on them and working on them and working them. And so eventually they're like, you know what? Fine. They like give up. And they're like, if this guy is this persistent, like, he probably will be a successful entrepreneur. He will take us there. And I think that like, people are the highest leverage thing that you, that you can bring into the company. Outside of, you know, crazy technology.

• 1:57:53Steven Bartlett?

  I am, one of my favorite videos of all time is where Steve Jobs, who you just mentioned, talks about hiring truly exceptional people. And he says words to the effect, I'll play it on screen. He says, um, people think the success of Apple is a consequence of me and my talent and my skills. But what I've actually done is I've built my career, quote, on hiring truly exceptional people, doing the extremely hard work of finding them and hiring them. And this crazy thing happens when you do that is it propagates. I E, A players then want to work with A players. They also hire A players and it spreads. I think it was this video.

• 1:58:26Speaker 02

  I've built a lot of my success off finding these truly gifted people and not settling for B and C players, but really going for the A players. And I found something. I found that when you get enough A players together, when you go through the incredible work to find, you know, five of these A players, they really like working with each other because they, they've never had a chance to do that before. And they don't want to work with B and C players. And so it becomes self policing and they only want to hire more A players. And so you build up these pockets of A players and it propagates.

• 1:59:06Alex Hormozi?

  The thing is, is that it's just like money won't make you happy. It's one of those things that like every founder like has to figure out for themselves. But the thing is, is and I, and I've had obviously a bunch of conversations around this, but like.

• 1:59:22Alex Hormozi?

  What you think is an A player today is not what you will think an A player is in five years. And so I think one of the hardest mental hacks around this is trying to project yourself into the future into the size business that you want to have and say, who would be an A player at that size and scale? And then coming back to the present and saying, how do I get them to work for me today? Amen. And it's really, and so as a mental process for anybody who does have a business right now and has some employees, if you, like everybody right now, you probably have some version of your A player, because every business has at least one, hopefully, right? Besides you. Imagine your business had five of those people. Like you picture in your head, you've got that one person, now you have five of them. How much more would you make?

• 2:00:07Alex Hormozi?

  Would you, would you double? Would you, would you five, would you 10x? Would you 50x? And sometimes you realize you're like, no, I think I would actually 10x. And so if that were the case, one, not only would you 10x the company. Number two, the value of the company would more than 10x because it would no longer be, it would be significantly less relied on you and it'd be more reliant on the team that you've built. Number three, it would happen faster because you would have more barrels that were firing concurrently, moving things forward. And those, those pieces, when put together, you have to then ask yourself from an opportunity cost perspective, what other activity could I be doing that would have the possibility of 10xing my company, doing it faster and increasing the enterprise value multiple?

• 2:00:53Alex Hormozi?

  That's not that. And if you can't find one, then it means you're working on the wrong stuff. And I think that is one of those great litmus tests of like, if I can find something, and I'll give you a really simple one that's not, not human, the talent based here. Something as simple as calling your leads. So there's tons of research that suggests that you can four, five x your conversion of leads by calling them within 60 seconds of them opting in for any product you have.

• 2:01:22Alex Hormozi?

  If you have all of these priorities they have across the company, does any of them have the high likelihood of 4 or 5 X-ing your business immediately with very low cost of doing so, less so than just calling the leads within 60 seconds? If the answer is no, then by God, why are you not calling all your leads within 60 seconds? The FOB question would be like, "Well, I don't have enough people to call our leads within 60 seconds." So then we'd say, "Okay, what is 4X the revenue of your company worth? Okay, what does it cost to hire one person whose only job is to just call the leads?"

• 2:02:02Alex Hormozi?

  Now, I recently talked to a restoration company. They did water damage for homes when they got hit by storms. And he told me, he said he was converting 55% of his leads, not calls, leads. And I was like, "How on earth are you doing this?" And I was like, "Well, how many leads a day do you get?" And he said, "Two or three." I was like, "Okay, so what's the process?" He's like, "Oh, it's really simple. My aunt, I pay her $60,000 a year, and she has only one job. She has no responsibility in the company. Besides, the moment a lead comes in, you stop having sex with your husband, you stop, you stop, you stop cooking, you stop loving your child, and you immediately call the lead. That's the only responsibility. She just has to make three calls a day at the moment the leads come in. And he pays her $60,000, and that brings in millions of dollars of revenue.

• 2:02:46Alex Hormozi?

  And so, you're not going to pay for it out of the dollars you have now. You're going to pay for it out of the dollars that you're going to make that you're not making yet because you haven't done it yet. And so, pin in there, back to the people. I think the hardest time, we call this the swamp at acquisition.com, but it's usually between like 1 and 3 million, is the swamp. And I think there's a numbers reason for why it's such a painful period for entrepreneurs.

• 2:03:16Alex Hormozi?

  Let's say 1 million for simple math. If you have a million dollar business, let's say that you have 20% margins. So that means you're making $200,000 in your profit. For you to get an A player, it's probably going to cost you 100% of your profit to get that A player. And so you'll have what appears to be an impossible choice. You'll have, do I sacrifice basically 100% of my profit to bring this person in? Or do I work another six hours a day to do the job that this person is doing? Both paths work. Both are painful and risky because the overworking yourself thing, you can get yourself through that hump. And then now you're at maybe three or four million and that 20% is 800.

• 2:03:58Alex Hormozi?

  You can spend 200, you still have cash flow, you can still live. The downside for the picking the person path is that what if you pick wrong? And this, by the way, ladies and gentlemen, is why entrepreneurs get outsized returns is because we take on outside risk. And so this is the, this is the job is that we have to be willing to make impossible choices. And the vast majority of choices for entrepreneurs in the business are impossible choices between two relatively bad scenarios. Because the rest of the choices aren't, don't even feel like choices because they're obvious. Of course we should correlate faster. Of course we should follow up more. Of course we should try and onboard faster. Okay, all of these things are the obvious ones.

• 2:04:38Alex Hormozi?

  But when you have, and I'm trying to think of the ones I'm not, I'm not sure. Almost all the decisions that you get stuck with, and Elon says this really beautifully, he says, running a business is like staring out to the abyss and chewing glass. So because the staring out to the abyss component of it is just the fact that this may never work. And you're almost facing existential risk at all times to the business. And the eating glass component is that you will, by nature of your role, get funneled the worst problems in the business and the problems that no one else can solve. So it's one, problems that people can't solve. Two, the worst ones. Or that they don't wanna solve and they suck.

• 2:05:23Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:23Alex Hormozi?

  And so you basically become a filter for the worst things. And that's why it feels like a fire every single day in the business. Because you're the only one who can make the tough call. Because no one else wants to choose between these two impossible choices. And you're like, why is it so hard? And the thing is, is that it literally never stops being hard. It's that the currency that you pay for in the hardness changes. And so, you know, a lot of people have this envision of like the Rocky cutscene of like, it must be hard for business. But I don't, I don't think that's where the hardship comes. I think the hardship is that at every level of business, there's new sacrifices that you didn't know you were going to have to make. Because if it was just, oh, I have to work long hours. There's tons of people who work long hours in their business and don't, don't grow. And it's usually because they're unwilling to have a hard conversation. It's a different currency, right?

• 2:06:09Alex Hormozi?

  They have to take on risk. It's a different currency. They have to, um, they have to, they have to make some sort of bet, right? That they otherwise wouldn't have had to make. They have some sort of legal issue that they encounter. They have an employee who tries to sue them for some sort of mal whatever, right? All of a sudden, you're like, wait, all of these things are happening and they happen on a regular basis. And at each level, you unlock new levels of glass that you get to chew through. And so this is why, like, most entrepreneurs, in my opinion, don't actually quit. They fizzle. So it's not a big bang. Usually it's, they just, they stop seeking. So either they get content at the level that they're at and they just don't strive for more. And sometimes they say, it just wasn't worth the trade. And I respect that. If you're like, you know what? I'm at a million dollars a year and I don't want anymore.

• 2:06:54Alex Hormozi?

  Fine, you won. Congratulations, like you won at life. But most of the times, they don't really quit. They just stop trying. And then they just either coast and, or it just fizzles into, into nothingness. And that's just my experience of having, and I'm sure you've seen this, having gone through like cycles of entrepreneurs, like seasons. It's like, oh yeah, I came in through, even like in the media and influencer space, whatever. It's like, there's a bunch of guys that 10 years ago, it's a different landscape now than it was 10 years ago. Some people adapted. Some of them were like, I don't like the, they, they just, they just, they weren't willing to chew the new glass, which is how do I learn TikTok? How do I learn? But man, blogs were so good. It's like, yeah, and they're not anymore. I talked to an entrepreneur, really massive sales, many hundreds of millions a year in sales.

• 2:07:37Alex Hormozi?

  And he was like, dude, we were killing it on infomercials, so TV. And he's like, we just, you know, we, uh, we just, we really just have to crack YouTube. And I'm thinking to myself like, Dude, it's 2024. Like, you needed to crack YouTube 10 years ago, and he had the resources to do it. But it was just a different kind of hard. And so, most of the hard is, one, a level of uncertainty that goes into it, and almost certain immediate failure. Because the first thing you're going to do will probably not work. And again, it's the iterations of, when you get into the new domain, you have to transfer your generalized knowledge, which is that, as an entrepreneur, I will know that this doesn't work, probably, because I only know four things about it,

• 2:08:22Alex Hormozi?

  and I need to know like 400. And so, I will get my first shot, and I need to get directionally correct, and then just keep doing more of that. And so, I gave the consulting way of learning, kind of like a new space. But if you want to learn a new skill, the fastest way that I do it, that's outside of courses or anything, is tremendous volume of activity. So whether that's like, I want to take a lot of sales calls, I want to do a lot of outreach, I want to make a lot of content, I want to do a lot of customer success calls, whatever it is, you do 100 of those. And then you see, what are the top 10% of these? Okay, what did these top 10% have different than the other 90? And then I say, okay, well, these ones had these three things that were different. Let's try and do those three things on the next 100. And then because of the variety of life,

• 2:09:05Alex Hormozi?

  there's going to be some new variables that exist that you look at the top 10% of the next 100. And you're like, okay, we did those three, but there's also two more things that happen in this 10 versus the other 90. Now, let's do all five of those things. And over time, this is how you develop a checklist for making banger content and banger videos. And I'm sure, like, there's this clip. David Perel talks about Chris Rock's creative process. And he says, how is it that you see Chris Rock at Madison Square Gardens, and it's just like 60 minutes of just fire? You're like, how is this guy so funny? And it's because what you don't see is the many small clubs, and the first club that he goes to and does a whole hour-long set, and has like... Three moments that people laugh a lot about. And he's got like five minutes that are good.

• 2:09:50Alex Hormozi?

  And the other 55 minutes basically suck. And so the next time he goes to a club, he takes those five minutes, puts them at the front. And then he tries all new material for the next 55 minutes. And he gets another five minutes. And he continues to repeat this process and put the new stuff at the front until eventually he has 60 minutes of uninterrupted laughing. And then people are like, oh, my God, he's so talented. I can't believe that he can just stand up there and talk into a microphone and make everyone laugh. Cross age boundaries, cross cultural boundaries, cross, you know, all of the batteries that you might imagine. How can he be so funny to everyone? That's how. How can that guy be so good at writing? Well, he looked at the stuff that he wrote. He found the best stuff, made it into the few things that he always does, and then kept writing. And that fundamentally is the process of learning anything. And it's usually not one thing.

• 2:10:35Alex Hormozi?

  It's many small things that, when added together in aggregate, create the outsized returns. Sorry, that was a little poppy there.

• 2:10:42Alex Hormozi?

  I just get violent about skill acquisition. It's like, that's what it takes.

• 2:10:44Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting, but so interesting to see your journey through that and how, and how you, you, you ended up at skill acquisition. Because I was, as you went through, there was three things that I was thinking about, and I managed to write them down. The first at the top of it was you detailed three reasons why hiring the exceptional person, when you're faced with that paradox of what do I do with my profits? It makes so much sense. One of the big things I hear from founders that they don't appreciate is to go for a long period of time, you have to have some kind of emotional regulation.

• 2:11:15Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:11:16Steven Bartlett?

  And as you were talking about the, the different levels of business, and at every level you have more problems, what I often see is a young founder hasn't hired those levels in between to deal with all those different types of problems. And they are like burning out and thinking of quitting. I had someone in my office last week, and she's on route to build about a $50, $50 million business this year. And the first question I said to her was, what's your executive team? And she just like rolls her eyes and she's like, I don't have an executive team. She'd done a post on social media, basically in tears, saying that she was gonna quit. She's got a thirty to fifty million dollar business. It's growing like wildfire, but she's about to almost quit it because she's dealing with every single problem.

• 2:11:56Steven Bartlett?

  And often founders say to me, they think because they're experiencing so much hardship in that like one to three million phase, that forever it's going to be just huge pain. And I've talked to them about this thing I call the promised land.

• 2:12:09Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah, I love this.

• 2:12:10Steven Bartlett?

  Because in the first two, three years of my business, I thought that forever I'm gonna have to deal with every fucking problem. Jenny in the office is pissed off at Dave and on Saturday night, when they were drunk, they did something which they shouldn't have had. And I realized the problem was I hadn't solved for hiring these levels. So everything was coming to me and the emotional toll on my nervous system of dealing with every problem was not sustainable.

• 2:12:30Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 2:12:30Steven Bartlett?

  And then I accidentally hired someone good.

• 2:12:32Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:32Steven Bartlett?

  Who I mentioned.

• 2:12:34Alex Hormozi?

  And then she dealt with all that.

• 2:12:35Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, and she dealt with all this shit. And then I could think again as a founder.

• 2:12:39Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 2:12:39Steven Bartlett?

  So I wanted to just give a moment to that and your thoughts on that.

• 2:12:43Alex Hormozi?

  I wanna do my best shot at operationalizing what you just said for somebody who's listening.

• 2:12:49Alex Hormozi?

  When we encounter this issue, we have a specific process that we go through. And so we tell the founder, I want you to make a Google sheet, really simple. And I want you to have the time slots from five AM to midnight, however long you work in fifteen minute increments. And I want you to set a timer, easy timer, kitchen timer, like for cooking, for every fifteen minutes. And every fifteen minutes, I want you to, when it dings, I want you to write down what you did. One or two words, doesn't take a lot. Now, as soon as I say that, people are like, oh, my God, I don't have time for this. I will promise you, it will be the most productive week of your life because you will be aware of how you're spending your time. Every time I do this, I immediately think, I should do this all the time, and I don't. So just do it. Just do it for the one week, okay? And so what happens is you'll do it for a whole week.

• 2:13:34Alex Hormozi?

  And then what the second step of this is you'll look at that and you'll say, okay, wow, I didn't know that forty percent of my time is dealing with this thing. And I can hire a role to handle forty percent of my time for this amount of money. If I had forty percent of my time back, I could double this business. And that would be worth significantly more than what I'd pay this person. And then you look at the next thirteen, you know, fifteen percent of your time. You're like, okay, is this something that I can give to somebody else? Like, can I, can I push this down? Can I create some process around this that can correct it? Or do I need to keep eating it for a little bit until it's enough that it's a full-time role? And so fundamentally, I see the entrepreneur as the, the many-hatted fractionalist that you continue to pull things under your plate until you have enough

• 2:14:19Alex Hormozi?

  that you can ship it out to somebody else full-time. And being aware of, again, the one resources we have, which is time, how we're allocating it so we get the highest return. And so if you look at the stack of time as an entrepreneur, we are always getting paid for our time. Kind of the premise of the, of the, the whole, the whole talk here is that we trade our time for dollars. And so we always, the whole process of entrepreneurship is continuing to trade up what you're trading your time for. And that's like, at the most foundational level, that is all we're doing. And so to take this as a hypothetical,

• 2:14:55Alex Hormozi?

  your business doesn't need you. Right now, you spend whatever hours you do working and you do these things. Imagine a world where you could hire somebody who could spend the same amount of time doing all of that stuff. Now you own the business. And whatever you have to pay them, you take out of the profit and everything else is now distributions that you own as an owner.

• 2:15:14Alex Hormozi?

  That's it. Now, the entrepreneur who's mission-driven then stacks their plate with even more things that they need to do and then just continues that process over and over again. Now, this is the part where the, the pushback comes, which is no one can do what I can do. And I want to say, you're right, and. If I wanted to, let's say you're a unicorn. So we can imagine this mythical unicorn. Got this white horse, got the horn, tail, everything. And the little pixie, pixie flies for the magic that's around it. Okay. You probably won't find a unicorn. But you can find a white horse.

• 2:15:49Alex Hormozi?

  And you can find a rhinoceros to get the horn. And you can find some fireflies to give you the twinkles. And so you may not hire one person who has all of these things, but you can hire three. And then those three together can potentially do everything that you're doing better, because it's all they're doing with all of their time. And breaking it up into basically understanding that you're not going to find that unicorn, but you just break it into pieces and then you can partition it out to people who can just do those parts, makes it a lot more manageable from an emotional level to think like, I'm never gonna find this. Of course you're not. And that's okay, because we can find, we can solve for parts of our calendar. And fundamentally, when you buy back the time, you can then do what you're like,

• 2:16:34Alex Hormozi?

  basically take the next step in the business.

• 2:16:36Steven Bartlett?

  The other really interesting thing, as you were talking about your friend who was doing blogs and missed YouTube.

• 2:16:40Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:40Steven Bartlett?

  Was the idea that our success traps, being an old innovator's dilemma.

• 2:16:44Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:16:44Steven Bartlett?

  That success traps us in the past. So your friend probably missed YouTube because he didn't want to reallocate headcount to something that was working and paying the bills. And this, I guess, ties into your point about failure being so unbelievably important, because what me and you both do right now is gonna get old.

• 2:17:01Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:03Steven Bartlett?

  And we probably both watched the people that came before us fade into irrelevance.

• 2:17:07Alex Hormozi?

  Look at these dinosaurs.

• 2:17:08Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah. And we're part of some kind of new school of content creation, but we're gonna become part of the old school.

• 2:17:13Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 2:17:13Steven Bartlett?

  If we don't.

• 2:17:14Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:16Steven Bartlett?

  What's it, what's in that gap?

• 2:17:18Alex Hormozi?

  Adapt. And I think that it's a port, so you know, Google has their, their, you know, I think Sergey like solved this mathematically, but they, I think they called it 70, 20, 10. So 70% of resources get allocated to the core business, do more of what we're currently doing. 20% goes to adjacent businesses. So things that are high likelihood success that are, you know, one step removed from the existing core business. And then 10% goes to moonshots, totally like off the path, like, let's just see, maybe we'll get 100 extra turn, we probably will lose on most of these. And he proved it with math, he's smarter than I am. But fundamentally, that is the concept of more, better, new. And so that's one of the chapters in, in, in the Leeds book, which is, okay, now that you have the core four, right, these are the four things that you can do.

• 2:18:03Alex Hormozi?

  You can post content, you can run ads, you can do outreach to strangers, you can do outreach to people you know. Those are the four things any person can do to advertise. The first thing you do is you do more. And for most small businesses, they're doing so little and think they're doing so much. And it's a huge gap in understanding. And so I'll tell this story that's probably the easiest way to explain it. Which is, when I had my first gym, I called up a mentor. He had 20 locations. I said, "How do you advertise?" He said, "I use flyers." I said, "Okay." So I put 300 flyers out. It didn't work. I called him back. I was upset. I said, "WTF?" He said, "Slow down. What was your test size?" And I said, "What do you mean?" He's like, "Well, your test size."

• 2:18:48Alex Hormozi?

  So like, I mean, the 300 wasn't the only amount that he put out. And I was like, "Well, yeah." He's like, "Well, our test size is 5,000 flyers. And then, once we have a winner, then we do 5,000 every day." In terms of flyers that they put on cars to get people in. And so, over a 30-day period, he would be putting out 150,000 flyers. And over a 30-day period, I put out 300. And so, he was in a very real way, doing whatever the math is there. But like, 300 times or whatever, I don't know, a lot more, 500 times the math. Sorry, 500 times the flyers that I was. And of course, he was getting a better result. And so, one of the fundamental misconceptions of small businesses is that they mistake they mistake low volume for volatility.

• 2:19:33Alex Hormozi?

  Meaning, if you're not sure where your sales come from, and you get one sale here, and then, you know, two weeks later, you get another sale, and it feels sporadic. It feels volatile. Well, there is a certain amount of advertising activity that is occurring over that period of time. And we know that a month passes and you get one to two sales. And so, the companies that are in your space, that are doing one to two sales a day, take what you're doing in a month, and they do that every day. And I know that you can get this, and I want to put this in context here. I hear, "I would like to build a personal brand." And I say, "Cool." And then, I ask, "How much country are you putting out?" And they say, "You know, I put out, you know, one or two pieces a week." And I think, "That's amazing."

• 2:20:16Alex Hormozi?

  For context, for anyone who's listening to this, we put out 450 pieces a week. And so the brand that we have is way larger because we do so much more than you do. And that's it's people can't fathom the idea that someone works two times, five times, 10 times, a thousand times more output than they are doing. But it is usually the reality of why they are getting a thousand times more than you're getting. And fundamentally, this is the concept of leverage, which is, you know, the you get more for what you put in. In the beginning, you're the one doing the flyers. Then you get leverage because then you make enough from those flyers that you can look at your time study and be like, "Okay, I can pay two guys to do these flyers and I can get eight hours back." That would be amazing. But now you've got two guys doing flyers, which is still double of what you were doing.

• 2:21:01Alex Hormozi?

  Now you have double the revenue that's coming in. You're like, "Okay, should I hire more guys? That's more." Or should I do something better? Should I change my flyer up? Should I change the offer on the flyer? That would be better. Or should I start Facebook ads? Well, the new, which would be Facebook ads, is the 10% thing. Now, when you're looking at allocation of resources, let's say we're now fast forwarding a little bit into a company that has, you know, profit that they can do stuff with. Part of the reinvestment is insurance for the future. And so every business has three strategic buckets that it has to allocate its resources into. Number one is how do we get more customers? Like, if we get more customers, the company grows, period. Number two, how do we increase lifetime gross profit per customer? So if we got the same amount of customers, but we made all the customers worth more, we would also grow.

• 2:21:45Alex Hormozi?

  Bucket three is how do we decrease risk? AKA, how do we increase the likelihood that the first two things don't stop happening? And so those are the three buckets. And so when we're, when you look at that 70, 20, 10, the 70 for the most part is usually going to be directed towards, "Get more customers, make them worth more." And the better also ladders up to that. The risk factor is usually going to be the new thing that you're going to do to ensure your future is going to be there by the time you get there. And so if you notice, if we noticed, for example, that like YouTube becomes like legacy television and, you know, viewership starts dropping and it becomes this new VR, whatever, right? At some point, we're going to have to look and be like, "We need to take 10%, 20% of our profit every year and start building out this new team.

• 2:22:28Alex Hormozi?

  We're going to continue to do what we're currently doing." And here's the mistake that you need to avoid. Don't take the stars that are making the one thing work and then push them on the other thing. You have to find the people who can build this other, otherwise you're going to sacrifice the core. Cause all of a sudden it's like, oh God, well now we're totally screwed because now we're not getting customers from our existing thing and we haven't figured out the new thing yet. Right? And so this is fundamentally where I see the CEO role is like, you want to eventually become the flex player, which is that you can parachute in to a specific division or department that's solving a complex issue. And then you have the, the benefit that you have a CEO or founder is that you have decision making power and you have the ability to allocate resources and immediately say yes to things. And that's why, and to be fair, it's unfair to your team to say, why can't,

• 2:23:12Alex Hormozi?

  why can't they do things as fast as me? Well, because you can write the checks and because you can say yes. You don't need to check with a committee. You don't need to run it up the flagpole. It's just you saying, do this, do that, don't worry about that. I'm telling you, you can stay late for this meeting. This is more important. And so strategy is just a fancy word that people say when they mean prioritization. That's all it means. We have, we have unlimited opportunities that we can allocate things towards, but we have limited resources. And so how do we prioritize those unlimited opportunities against those limited resources? That is fundamentally what strategy is. And that's another way of just saying we prioritize.

• 2:23:43Steven Bartlett?

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• 2:24:13Steven Bartlett?

  blue Zoe cookie, which tests your metabolism. Oh, and I can't forget, there's also a poo sample, which is a critical step in understanding the health of your microbiome. And you post it all to Zoe and you get your results back, which will help you to understand your body's response to different foods. Using your results, Zoe's app will also create a personalized nutrition plan for you. And this is exactly why I invested in the business. So my question to you is how healthy is your gut? Head to Zoe.com to order your kit and find out. And because you're one of our listeners, use code bartlett10 for 10% off your membership. Head to Zoe.com now. At my company Flight Studio, which is part of my bigger company Flight Group, we're constantly looking for ways to build deeper connections with our audiences.

• 2:24:54Steven Bartlett?

  Whether that's a new show, a product or a project, it's why I launched the Conversation Cards. I've relied on Shopify before, who's a sponsor of today's podcast, and I'll be using them again for the next big launch, which we'll hear about soon. And I use them because of how easy it is to set up an online store that reaches all of you. No matter where you are in the world, with Shopify, the usual pain points of launching products online disappear completely. No matter the size of your business, Shopify has everything you need to make your business go to the next level and better connect with your customers all over the world. To say thank you to all of you for listening to my show, we're giving you a trial, which is just $1 a month. You can sign up by going to Shopify.com/Bartlett.

• 2:25:36Steven Bartlett?

  That's Shopify.com/Bartlett, or find the link in the description below. On the car example you were talking about with the flyers, what I was thinking is so many businesses try and win on the game of creativity. So we'll create something more creative and appealing as an advert. And I see this in my portfolio because they'll send me something and they'll go, Steve, one particular business I'm thinking about, a major national supermarket has given us a display slot in 400 supermarkets. Which display should we use? And they'll say to me, this one or this one? Right. And I remember replying to them and saying, I don't know. Yeah. And you don't know. Yeah. But here's a system to find out. We're going to create 100 displays and we're going to run them as ads on Facebook

• 2:26:18Steven Bartlett?

  or we're going to create some kind of environment where we're not going to try and win on being the best creative guesses. We're going to win on our rate of experimentation. Yeah. We're going to conduct more experiments. Yeah. And I think this is a real shift in so many regards because especially if we've gone through university and we've been trained as a copywriter. Yeah. We have the old problem of wanting to be right, not successful. Yeah. And being able to, as a creative, even as a podcaster, say, I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm going to create a system where our rate of experimentation is going to be so much higher than our competitors that we're going to stumble across the right answer, more than they do, is a shift in thinking.

• 2:26:53Alex Hormozi?

  So there are two types of questions that you shouldn't ask. Questions that can be solved with a spreadsheet and questions that can be solved with testing. And so fundamentally, the outside advice that you get on something that can be solved with math, just solve with math. And I would say like 30% of the questions that I get are like, should I sell this one or this one? And I'm like, okay, well, what's lifetime value of this product? And what's lifetime value of that product? Okay, what's cost to acquire for this customer? What's cost to acquire for that customer? Okay, this is a math problem. You have a way higher LTV to CAC ratio here. Allocate resources here. But that's a math problem. Anyone can just do that math. For the testing one, I love this, which is like the leads book. I didn't know what to name it. So it's about advertising.

• 2:27:33Alex Hormozi?

  So I ran story tests for like a week or two, just saying $100 million promotions, $100 million advertising, and then advertising wins. It's like $100 million advertising, $100 million marketing. Okay, and then advertising wins. I'm like, okay, $100 million advertising, $100 million leads. Leads wins. $100 million leads versus two other things, leads keeps winning. Okay, that's the title. And then I did the same thing for the cover. I did the same thing for the sub-headline. And so I tested every component of it to get the thing that people seem to want, which is like, the book is advertising, but ironically, people want leads. So it's kind of like, do I want to have a book on drills? Or do I want to have a book on holes? Right, people want the hole in the wall, not the drill. That's just the vehicle. And so the book is just the vehicle to getting leads.

• 2:28:15Alex Hormozi?

  But as a quick hack for anybody who has a brick and mortar business, this is just a quick hack for anybody. If you're like, what market should I expand into? Here's five markets we're looking at. Take $1,000. Run your best promotion that you're running in your current market in all five of those markets. See what your lead cost is in all five markets. The one that has the lowest lead cost, then open in that market. Don't spend $250,000, you know, doing all these studies and then building out this location only to find out that the lead cost in that area sucks. Just test it first. It's the best $5,000 or $10,000 that you're ever going to spend to just ensure, this is a risk bucket, ensure that when you're there, it's going to work.

• 2:28:58Steven Bartlett?

  I mean amen. It's our whole philosophy. So it's so wonderful to hear that. And I didn't realize that you'd done that with the book.

• 2:29:05Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah, I have it in the chapter where I'm like, you have to wrap everything. And I show all the tests that I ran to, and like, you can see all the percentages of people saying this is the, that's the book title.

• 2:29:14Steven Bartlett?

  When people look at you, Alex, you're a guy that knows a lot about a lot. And one of the questions that I often get as well is, I need a mentor. People, kids will come up to you and say, I'm sure they say it to you all the time, will you be my mentor?

• 2:29:26Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:27Steven Bartlett?

  Do mentors matter?

• 2:29:30Alex Hormozi?

  So I'll explain what I'm thinking through. So to answer that question, I think it asks, what is required to win?

• 2:29:39Alex Hormozi?

  And is a mentor required? No.

• 2:29:45Alex Hormozi?

  But there are certain behaviors and actions that will increase the likelihood of success. If you can do those actions faster, then you will have a higher likelihood of winning and higher likelihood of winning faster.

• 2:30:02Alex Hormozi?

  All of humanity has been built on us standing on our forefathers' shoulders and taking what they learned. We don't have to figure out how light bulbs work. I have no idea how the internet works, but I know that it works. And there's somebody who can figure it out. And so we just start where they kind of lay off the baton. And then we pick it up from there and we run the next however many, and then we die and we hit the next guy. And I think you don't need mentors, but you need to learn from people ahead of you. And so I think in models, not mentors, what can I model about their behavior? So that it can change my behavior to increase the likelihood that I win faster. And so everything that I do, and I feel like it's a pretty strong statement.

• 2:30:45Alex Hormozi?

  Everything that I do ladders up or down to behavior. And so you've probably noticed it when I talk about training and employees. When I talk about advertising, I just want to increase the likelihood that a stranger takes a desired action. That's all I'm trying to do. And when we get into behavior change, it removes a lot of the surface level fluff that I think confuses the vast majority of people. And so I'm always afraid to go on podcasts where somebody is like really heavy in like manifestation and like energy and frequencies and like whatever the hell.

• 2:31:21Alex Hormozi?

  And they'll say things like, "I manifested this meeting." And I'll be like, "You didn't." You have content that did well because you produce content on a regular basis. And then your EA reached out to my EA? That reach out is what initiated this? Not whatever vibes you were setting out into the universe. Now, some people might say, "Yeah, it was also the vibes." But I would bet that if they made the content and did the reach out, I would still do it. Which means that those are the core things. Because if we've removed those, if we just did the manifestation and didn't make the content, the reach out, I would not be here. And so, one of these works, one of these doesn't. And so, that is what has allowed me to try and extract the essence from the mentors or heroes ahead of me.

• 2:32:01Alex Hormozi?

  I consume a tremendous amount of Elon, Bezos, Zuck, anything that I can find that they put out or that they're interviewed on, I try and consume it. And the whole goal is, I want to think about their decision-making process as it relates to what they did. And try and apply that to my context in terms of behavior. And so, that has been just like the big, big, big, big zoom out for, "Do I need a mentor?" No, but you need to learn stuff. And so, whatever way is the fastest way for you to learn things, do that. And so, I'll tell this story because I think it's like, "Do you need one?" No, no one needs one. You can literally just do all of these things through trial and error on your own, and you will figure it out. Time is obviously the one thing that is the big question mark.

• 2:32:46Alex Hormozi?

  And I think part of that is a question of, "How valuable is your time to you?" Not in a micro example, but would I pay in time or money to move forward five years and not make five years of mistakes? So, when I started my first gym, I didn't actually start the gym because I quit my job and I drove across the country. And I showed up at a guy's house that I Googled on the internet, who said he was good at running gyms. His name was Seven Figure Sam. And so, he was a gym guru. And so, I showed up at his actual gym, unannounced, and I was like, "Hey, I'm here to be mentored and learn." And he was like... Uh, I'm working. Um, I really don't know who you are and uh, like, maybe we'll talk tomorrow or something. And I was like, okay. And he's like, where are you staying? And I said, I don't know. I haven't decided yet. He's like, what do you mean?

• 2:33:31Alex Hormozi?

  I was like, that's my car. I just drove here and all my stuff's in there. And he's like, you have nowhere to learn. I was like, figured I'd just figured out when I got here. And so he offered me to stay at his, at his house that night, which is unbelievably generous. And maybe my salesmanship got him, you know, who knows? But within a few weeks, he had a meetup of all the gyms that were kind of like following his little system for how he ran his personal training studio and, and bootcamp. And I got to go as a 22 year old and I paid to have access to this community of gym owners. And they were all going around talking about what was going good and what was going wrong in the business. And when it got to me, I was like, well, okay, so I want to open a location. And this is kind of what I was thinking about my model and this is what I was thinking about price points. And they were like, wrong, wrong. Here's why that's not gonna work. Here's that's not gonna work.

• 2:34:15Alex Hormozi?

  And I was like, oh, uh, okay. Well, this is where I was gonna buy equipment. They're like, don't buy there. That's retail. You can get it from secondhand over here. And it's literally a tenth of the price. And I was like, oh, that's awesome. Okay, great. I was like, well, I was thinking about getting this type of thing. They're like, no, girls will eat shit on that and they'll fall. Like, I've had two girls do it. Don't worry about it. Like, you're not gonna use it. But you can get sandbags. You can use them all the time and they're super cheap. And if you have to replace them, you can, but you can use them for like hundreds of exercises. And I was like, great, I'll do that. And then I was like, okay, so I was thinking about this kind of square footage for my, for my facility. They're like, dude, you don't need all that. You can cut that in half. And I was like, okay, well, that doesn't happen. And um, I was like, I'm willing to pay two bucks a foot. And they were like, no, never go over 150. And I was like, okay, never go over. And so like, in a matter of a day,

• 2:34:57Alex Hormozi?

  I got to take like, all of the knowledge of all of these guys of mistakes that they'd all made with their gyms. And I started my first gym just on their backs. And so how much was that worth to me? Years. And so.

• 2:35:13Alex Hormozi?

  For me, I have always been willing to pay in whatever currency was required to get knowledge that I don't know.

• 2:35:21Steven Bartlett?

  Can you get that now for free?

• 2:35:22Alex Hormozi?

  Yes. It didn't exist then. YouTube wasn't even a thing. Instagram had just come out. Like, for context, for everybody who's listening to this. I think about this equation a lot, and I actually had some video of somebody shitting on me for this, but I'm gonna say it anyways because there's the 20% that I'm gonna say it. That's right, I'm not gonna dilute myself. So, I saw a salesman say this at a conference, and he wrote a million dollars on a whiteboard.

• 2:35:45Alex Hormozi?

  And he called up a lady in the audience, and he said, "How much do you make?" And she said, "Fifty thousand dollars a year." So he wrote fifty thousand dollars underneath of the million, and then he subtracted it. And it said, "Nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars." He said, "It costs you nine hundred and fifty thousand dollars every single year you don't know how to make a million dollars a year." And so the question is, what is the value of that skill? And the answer is the difference. And so, the troll who responded to this originally was like, "Well, you can keep going. What about a hundred million dollars a year, or a billion dollars a year?" And I was like, "Yes. Yes, if you had the skill of making a billion dollars a year, then the difference between fifty thousand and a billion is the delta of the value of that skill." And it's really not one skill.

• 2:36:28Alex Hormozi?

  It's many skills that ladder up to, when combined together, to create that kind of value. But I remember that being like seared into my memory, which is like, whatever I want to have, the delta between where I'm at and where that thing is, is what, basically, what I'm willing to sacrifice in order to learn what I need to learn to get there. And I think that if people appraised that delta, not by the money in their wallet or the time that they currently have, but how much they would be making, or how much time they would have, and how much that's worth to them, then I think far more people would be willing to invest in their education. And it's such a taboo word because people hate the word "education." It's like, "Oh, it's like work." But like, you wanna be an entrepreneur, like, you gotta learn. You just have, there's so much stuff to learn.

• 2:37:14Steven Bartlett?

  Parrots versus practitioners. This is an idea that I've thought about a lot over the years because I look at someone like you, and I can tell, based on everything you say today, that you are a practitioner. In this analogy, what I call a parrot is someone who hears what Alex said and then starts saying it. But your lessons and wisdom have come from going through that shit and being able to distill the essence like Richard Fryman and then share it. There is a group of people that just spend their whole life reading books, posting about it, etc. They never take the jump. Parrots versus practitioners is the best way to learn being a practitioner?

• 2:37:49Alex Hormozi?

  This is widely known in the education space, but not as much in the content world. But there are two types of education. There is procedural and there is declarative. So declarative knowledge is knowing about something. Procedural knowledge is knowing how to do something. So a simple example would be, okay, I understand how private equity works, right? Like you could talk about it. You can explain how, okay, they take some debt and then they have this arbitrage and they get this enterprise value multiple, whatever. But you've never done a deal. And until you've done a deal, you will not have procedural knowledge of knowing how to actually do a deal. And so you can read 100 books on sales, but you will learn more about actually selling from your first 100 sales calls.

• 2:38:28Steven Bartlett?

  And business is the same.

• 2:38:30Alex Hormozi?

  Yes. And so the idea, in my opinion, for most people is that if you want to rapidly learn, you want to rapidly do those 100 repetitions as fast as you can, so that you can suck 100 times in a row and find the 10 that sucked the least, and then say, how do I suck least on the next 100? And you keep doing that so many times until eventually you suck so little that you're actually good.

• 2:38:49Steven Bartlett?

  Hard work.

• 2:38:52Alex Hormozi?

  Yes. And I think, you know, this is actually really interesting because it ladders up to, because there's two types of creators. You've got entertainers and then you have educators. At least that's how I separate it. The point of entertainment is to maintain the attention of the audience. That is it. So the point of an entertainer is to literally just keep people watching. The point of an educator is to change someone's behavior. And so if you, if you want content to do well in either of these buckets, fundamentally, at least in the education space, you're selling time. So education is, I spent all this time doing this thing to learn these four things that I can give to you so that you don't have to spend this time learning it.

• 2:39:34Alex Hormozi?

  And so, education is actually, if said differently, what you do is you buy time. So when you buy, it's the only thing, it's the only way to actually buy time today. So if you want to basically time warp into your future, you have to buy education so that you can buy all of the life experiences from all these people and then not pay for it in your life. You pay for it with less time by consuming what they have, or some money, or some combination of those things. And fundamentally, we usually pay with the currency that we value least. And so, interestingly, a rich person values their time more than their money, and so they're willing to pay with money to get time back. A poor person will often pay for their time and drive around to 10 different gas stations to find the one thing that's 10 cents cheaper, or drive to 10 different grocery stores

• 2:40:18Alex Hormozi?

  to use whatever coupons. They're valuing their time over their money in that instance. And so, back to the educator, if you want to be certain or have confidence in any endeavor, you have to do so much volume of activity that it would be unreasonable that you would suck. And if you were to write out the equation of like, okay, how many public speeches would I need to give for it to be unreasonable that I would suck? Is it 10? Is it 100? Is it 1,000? Write the number that you're like, there's no way that I would suck after this many. And then, all of your effort gets really narrowed, commitment, elimination of alternatives, focus, turn down quality and quantity of other things, to just doing that.

• 2:41:00Alex Hormozi?

  And then, and the key part of this is not just to do the 1,000, but after every 10 or every 20, looking at the top 10 or 20%, and saying, what did I do well there? And then, because you have to have the feedback loop. Otherwise, it's not just doing 100 reach outs. You have to do 100 reach outs, and then look at what worked, and then do more of what worked. And so, for the parent versus the practitioner component of this,

• 2:41:22Alex Hormozi?

  Even if you're starting out, you can have confidence in what you're doing because you derived the solution. And you can actually answer why you do something. So if you cannot explain why you believe what you believe, it's not your belief, it's someone else's. And so most people, I would say, parrot the vast majority of the things that they say. Because, and to be fair, that's how humans learn. You're five years old, you say, what's that? They say bull, and you say bull. You parrot it back, and there we go, right? But when it comes to skills, you can describe what other people have said before. But if something goes wrong, or what about this condition? You won't know what to do. But if you derived it from the ground up, and there's a, there's a great portion of this in the Y Combinator community that you,

• 2:42:07Alex Hormozi?

  or the Silicon Valley community that you probably heard. It was maybe like three or four months ago. It was like Founder Mode. Did that get to the UK?

• 2:42:12Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, it was from Brian Chesky. I actually messaged him about it after.

• 2:42:15Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, yeah, it was like, it was, it was awesome, right? And so basically, the tenet is that the founder always has special powers in the company because you know what built it. And so that is basically, at its core, the practitioner versus parrot. The people who came later are parroting why you do what you do. But you know what conditions you were in when you made this rule, and also you know how to break it, and when to bend those rules. And so if you build something when you built it from those repetitions to distill out the few truths that exist, you'll know why those are the truths. Like, I'll give you a really simple example. So if we, you know, we've tried to learn YouTube, and we've gotten better over time. But in the beginning, I did this massive review, and I figured out that the videos that we had that had three things at the beginning, proof, promise, plan,

• 2:43:00Alex Hormozi?

  was the videos that did the best. And so then all of a sudden, we said, okay, all videos have to have proof, promise, plan right at the beginning, the first 30 seconds. Great. So we started doing that for a while. And then we looked at the outliers among those. And we were like, oh, well, we also, and some of the ones that did really well, also had some sort of visual picture of, of this plan. All right, so it became proof, promise, plan, picture.

• 2:43:22Alex Hormozi?

  Then we kept looking and we found out over more repetitions that if we also include some sort of pain or problem that's being solved, that also helps. So proof, promise, plan, picture, pain. And so you're like, wait, if you keep adding to this thing, it's gonna get really long. No, sometimes you can check multiple boxes with one thing. And this becomes the elegance of creation. Like, how can I, how can I check off three of these boxes with one sentence? Right? And so that is, by the way, if you're like thinking about this, you're like, do they really think about this when they're making videos? Yes. And that is the difference between a 10,000 view video and a million view video. And it's, it's understanding that level of nuance across the entire thing that creates expertise. And also, when you're like, oh, this video flopped when you're beginning, you're like, these videos in general don't work or content doesn't work,

• 2:44:05Alex Hormozi?

  rather than saying, this video didn't work, and here's why, because we did three of the five.

• 2:44:11Alex Hormozi?

  And so it's just like all of the, I mean, the devil is in the details and you only, you only, you meet the devil himself by doing the unreasonable amount of work. And then it becomes, it goes from uninformed, a lack of knowledge to informed optimism. Because first, you're like, I can make videos and get rich. Then you realize that it's really hard to make videos that people watch. And then finally, you start to develop a framework of this is how I make videos that people watch. And when they don't watch it, it's because I didn't follow it.

• 2:44:36Steven Bartlett?

  It's so timely because it weaves into something you said earlier. Because my girlfriend came to the recording yesterday. And as I went into the green room and I sat down, she went, babe, look, I found this new app. And I said, what is it? She goes, it's an app that summarizes books. And she, it's called like Head Something. And she showed me it. And I go, look at my book.

• 2:44:53Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:44:53Steven Bartlett?

  Because I know the laws, I know the chapters, I know all of the principles that lead up to the point. So show me my book. And Law Two of, my book's called 33 Laws, so it's these 33 laws.

• 2:45:02Alex Hormozi?

  I got it, yeah.

• 2:45:02Steven Bartlett?

  And Law Two is about the Richard Fryman technique you talked about. And I explain why that process of learning something, simplifying it to its essence for a 10 year old, teaching it to someone else, if they understand it, move on. If they don't, go back to the top and learn again. And it summarized Law Two of my book to, like, writing is the best way to learn.

• 2:45:21Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:22Steven Bartlett?

  And I said, babe, if you, I said, if you just read that, that summary, the top of the pyramid, and you don't have the story and all these agreeable foundations, which I then explained to her. Would you be able to then translate that and truly understand the nature of the problem so that you could apply it to lots of different settings and so on? And then I told her what that second law of my book actually meant and she deleted the app.

• 2:45:41Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:45:42Steven Bartlett?

  Because there's no point knowing the conclusion.

• 2:45:45Alex Hormozi?

  The aphorism.

• 2:45:45Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, like the punchline when you don't know the story. And without the story, you can't, I guess, get to the first principles of the thing.

• 2:45:53Alex Hormozi?

  So this is really interesting because with that Feynman example, it proves that the distillation of knowledge is not bidirectional. So you, Richard Feynman, can break it down to a child, but a child cannot then re-derive what Feynman has done.

• 2:46:08Steven Bartlett?

  Interesting, yeah.

• 2:46:09Alex Hormozi?

  And so it's convenient for the transmission of communication and for teaching someone who's, let's say, coming new to an organization. Here's the things and these give you the decision-making frameworks around which, and it can give you directional guidance. But that is the whole founder mode. That is basically a different way of getting to the founder mode idea. That person derived this thing.

• 2:46:31Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:46:32Alex Hormozi?

  And so when a problem arises, we can re-derive the next solution rather than trying to apply the aphorism to a new setting.

• 2:46:40Steven Bartlett?

  Another point for founders who are getting their work copied. Because this, everything you've just said actually should give a founder who's having their work copied, their T-shirt designs, their content copied, huge amount of peace because if I need to know steps one, two, three, four, five, up the staircase to success, to be able to predict step six, then if someone's just copying your step five, you should be at total peace because they don't know.

• 2:47:04Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:04Steven Bartlett?

  The foundations that would lead to the next step. And that's what we see as podcasts, is podcasts is copy you, they'll copy your thumbnail, your title, your whatever.

• 2:47:11Alex Hormozi?

  Dude, I mean, I'm sure you see it everywhere.

• 2:47:14Steven Bartlett?

  But the piece that I have is, honestly, I say to the team all the time, if that's the thing that makes us special, we're fucked anyway.

• 2:47:20Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:21Steven Bartlett?

  Like if it's the thumbnail or the this or the how we do this, if it's the trailer that made us special, we're fucked anyway.

• 2:47:26Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:27Steven Bartlett?

  But also there's a set of principles, we call it the iceberg. The 99% of what we do, you can't see. It's the culture, as you said.

• 2:47:35Alex Hormozi?

  It's like, I have so much on this. So one is, right when I sat down, you were telling me about the episode that we ran that was akin to a Shark Tank, but new version that we had on our channel. And you saw me kind of like grow and be like, it was 56 minutes on video, but it was so much work to produce that one thing. But no one sees all the work behind it. That's the 99%. So that's thing one. The next thing is, think about the, if you're a founder who's plagued with competition and being upset about it, I was one too, and I want to tell you how I got over it. So number one is think about the alternative, which is that no one copies you because no one cares about what you're doing. Well, then it would be a requisite for success that people copy you. So as long as you are successful, this is just a part of business.

• 2:48:20Alex Hormozi?

  The second piece is, by definition, if someone copies you, they are second. Period. And so if you want to lead, you can't look at anyone else. You have to consistently be deriving the next step, the step six that's unseen from your first five steps to innovate, rather than, I'm just going to parrot the next thing. And as soon as you find yourself copying, you have admitted defeat. You've admitted that you were no longer the leader and that you were just following in someone else's footsteps, and you're giving them the baton and saying, you be the champion. I'm happy with second, third, fifth place. And in a winner take all world like Attention is, all the fruits go to the first place anyways.

• 2:49:02Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. Amen. I have nothing more to add. That's perfect. The last thing I want to talk to you about is, it's really like a three-part thing. It's hard work, love, and happiness.

• 2:49:11Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 2:49:12Steven Bartlett?

  And I put them together intentionally. One could say work-life balance.

• 2:49:15Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:16Steven Bartlett?

  Love, happiness. I think these things are fundamentally intertwined. But how do you think about it? You're someone that's known as being very obsessive, very into your work, to say the least. You have a wonderful partner who seems to be aligned.

• 2:49:30Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, super.

• 2:49:31Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, good.

• 2:49:32Alex Hormozi?

  She's hardcore.

• 2:49:32Steven Bartlett?

  So let's go through it. Work-life balance slash hard work. Love and happiness.

• 2:49:38Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 2:49:38Steven Bartlett?

  If we start with work-life balance, it was that shit question.

• 2:49:43Alex Hormozi?

  Beliefs on it?

• 2:49:43Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:45Alex Hormozi?

  So I will answer with how I derived my kind of life thesis, which was after we, so when we went to, so we had taken about $40 million in distributions from Jim Launch personally throughout the years that we ran the company. And then in the year of the sale, for those of you who've never sold a company before, you typically don't want to change a lot of things. You kind of want the company to just be like, be stable, keep working, everything's fine. And so it's one of the most harrowing experiences to go through because you can't really change anything. And if you're the founder, you're always trying to innovate. So you can't do what you're normally doing. And you also can't start the next, so you can't change current and you can't start new. Because if the deal doesn't go through, then you don't want to start two businesses.

• 2:50:29Alex Hormozi?

  Remember, because we're, you know, cardinal rule number one, we're not chasing women in the red dress. And so you basically have to sit idly by and just like let things operate. And so in that year, it was one of the most miserable years of my life because I basically had nothing to do. And when I looked back on my life, this sounds like, you know, I looked back on my life as though it's been so long. I looked at the days that I enjoyed the most. And on those days, I had worked out and I had produced something and I had done both of those with people I liked. And almost all of those days, I'd worked many, many hours.

• 2:51:09Alex Hormozi?

  And when I realized that the idea of working hard so that I can insert blank, the so that actually makes it still destination driven. So that was when I derived what I called hard work is the goal. It's just to work hard. That is my goal.

• 2:51:32Steven Bartlett?

  And then die?

• 2:51:33Alex Hormozi?

  Mm-hmm. On things worth doing.

• 2:51:37Alex Hormozi?

  And I, those are the days that I love. And I get a tremendous amount of pushback for saying this. And it bothers a lot of people. And to them, I say, live your life whatever you want. This is, again, my, my life is not a sermon. It's a documentary. This is just how I do it. You can do whatever you want. And for the people who are dissatisfied, try it. And if not, no worries. I really enjoy working. Like, the best days are like when I write those books, it's the happiest I am. And it's not happy in the moment because it's really hard. But the amount of challenge is about proportional to my level of skill. And every book, I think, is better than the last. And the third book that's coming out is gonna be fucking awesome.

• 2:52:22Alex Hormozi?

  I'm very excited about it. But there's nothing that I enjoy more. But in the moment, I'm like, how do I break this down? And I'm just rubbing my forehead and I'm like, and then I, and I create two, three different frameworks. I'm like, nope, that's, that doesn't work here. And that doesn't work here, which means some kid in Afghanistan is gonna get stuck on this step because it doesn't work. I have to figure out how to get it so that it works everywhere. And I keep driving and so, but the moment it's like, it clicks. I'm like, that's it. Fight me. Like, that's the framework. That is what I, what I strive for. And for me, the love, the happiness and work have all, because of the nature of my life, been one. Now, some people have lived their lives where their love life and their happiness and their work are all separate. For me, it has just been life. And I like it that way.

• 2:53:07Alex Hormozi?

  And for the people who are upset by that, I'm not upset about how you live your life. I just choose to live it this way. And if in the future, I change my mind, I'll change my life. If I get to a point where I'm like, this is no longer a priority for me, something else is, then I will. But when I look at the centenarians and I look at the people who, like, I look at Warren Buffett as somebody and Charlie Munger as two of my heroes. Charlie worked until the day he died. And to be clear, I don't work on a seven day calendar. I don't work a certain hour. I work as much as I can until I feel like my rate of output drops precipitously because of fatigue. And then I, and I sleep. And then if I feel like on a, on a longer time horizon of like, I've worked nine days, I've worked 20 days, I've worked 30 days in a row.

• 2:53:50Alex Hormozi?

  And I'm like, all right, I feel like I don't have any gas today, then I'll take the whole day off. And whether that's a Tuesday or a Sunday or a Saturday, I take the day off. And that just is what it is. And I've just, I have learned to work that way and I'm okay with it.

• 2:54:03Steven Bartlett?

  The goal clearly for you then is the hard work itself and not a certain place you're trying to get to necessarily.

• 2:54:09Alex Hormozi?

  Cause that always moves.

• 2:54:10Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 2:54:10Alex Hormozi?

  And so Jesse Itzler has this, and maybe, maybe I'll, I'll be able to steal it from him someday. But he told, I saw him show a picture of his kid finishing a race and putting a zero up. And what that signified was nothing left in the tank. That he'd spent everything he had on the field. And I would, and it's like, I have this visual of the 300 movie where the queen says to the king, as he goes off to battle, she says, come back with your shield or on it. And I kind of see like my work that way. Like, I can't imagine a better way to go out than like doing the thing I love. And it bothers a lot of people that I love something different than they love.

• 2:54:52Alex Hormozi?

  And it's like, it really, it really bothers, and it bothers me that it bothers them, to be honest.

• 2:54:58Alex Hormozi?

  Because I, I make no projections. Like do whatever you want. And I feel like if, if I ever had a, like one thing that, that people took from me, it was like absolute freedom. And because of that absolute freedom, we are 100% responsible for our own lives. And so where we place the, the finger of blame is also where power flows. So if you blame your parents for your life, your parents have power over your life. If you blame your boss for your bad life, your boss has power over your life. If you blame you for your bad life, at least you can change you and you can do something about it. And so I think absolute responsibility has been my, my core tenet. And if you have a life where you're like, I don't want to care about work that much and I just want to spend all my time with my family. I'm like, congratulations, you fucking won, that's amazing.

• 2:55:44Alex Hormozi?

  Just don't assume that everyone's you. And that winning for me is the same as winning for you. And it, and I think the times that I talk about this, I know that my message won't resonate with everyone, and that's okay. But it's for the few people who were like me and felt like everyone told them there was something wrong with them. And I still get people to tell me there's something wrong with me. And if wrong means not normal, then yeah, you bet. But it's more so that like you are different and that's okay. And I think that if you're, if you're okay with that, then it unleashes this whole new realm of possibility of being able to do what you want. And kind of like I had the, you know, you do 100 of these

• 2:56:28Alex Hormozi?

  and you look at the top 10%, do 100 of these, look at the top 10%. That was my way of trying to operationalize happiness. Because it was this ephemeral thing that when I was 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, I struggled a ton with, I was very depressed. I looked at, you know, religion, I looked at a lot of different things. And this is common for people at that age. And I came up with a mantra for me at that time, which was fuck happiness. Now, people then hear this, and I'm sure this will get taken out of context. But that was basically like this release moment for me, where by continually chasing happiness, it always existed outside of me. And so it was always this carrot that was in front of me that I could never really get to.

• 2:57:11Alex Hormozi?

  And so by saying fuck happiness, I was like, it's unattainable, I'm just gonna work. And I'm just gonna do the stuff I wanna do. And when I started doing the stuff that I wanted to do, I looked up years later and I was like, I actually kinda like my life. And I was like, is this what happiness is? And I was like, I don't know. But I think one of the major plights of humanity, myself included, is the expectation that life should be different than it is. And so we, we, we create this idea that whatever we have right now is not what it should be. And I think should is the, is the root of all pain.

• 2:57:51Alex Hormozi?

  Is that all the things that we think should happen but aren't is our, is basically the measurement of our pain. And so I've tried to eradicate should from my life, should for other people, she should do this, they should do that. And just, just lean into is, it just is this way. I work, period. Not I should work more, I should work less, I should work differently, I should see my mom more, I should call my dad more. I do this. And if something changes, I will change. And so unconditional shoulds. Now, if there is a condition of like, if you want to make more money, then this is a higher likelihood. You might want to consider doing this. Those are things that I don't consider in that category. But just the generalized shoulds of he shouldn't do that.

• 2:58:34Alex Hormozi?

  He should, he should build a family, he should have kids, he should have gotten married earlier, he should have gotten later, he should have married someone different. He shouldn't have the, the life that he has, he shouldn't work this way. According to what?

• 2:58:47Alex Hormozi?

  And so for me, that is my, my theory on life, on, on happiness, work and love has been very unified. Because I love my work so much that I got out of a relationship. And when I, you know, started dating Leila, I said, I am not willing to change this. And so you have to be willing to deal with me working this way, or this won't work. Because my relationship with my work is the most satisfying relationship I have. Now, people will hear that and be like, well, that's because he's never experienced true love, or whatever, whatever, whatever narrative they'll, they'll say. But it's like, you haven't lived my life and I haven't lived yours, and I don't project anything onto you.

• 2:59:30Alex Hormozi?

  But I, I like, I like, I love what I do. And I like, I get attacked for liking what I do so much. And I like working a lot. And, and it's because they have negative associations with the word. And that's, that's their own history of, of, of their experience with the word. But I see my goals and my relationship with my goals as one of the most sacred things that I have, because I see them as a relationship with myself.

• 2:59:53Alex Hormozi?

  And so those, those proxy, when someone comes in and says, hey, you know, sweetie. You've been working too much. According to what? Why should I stop? Right?

• 3:00:05Alex Hormozi?

  Now, let's do this other thing. And people will probably see this as a, they'll put whatever labels they want on it. But like, I just said, this is what I would like to do with my life. And if you can incorporate yourself into that, that would be amazing. And so, my second date with Leila, after we talked about business for four hours on our first date, was I said, I'm gonna be working all day. It'd be cool if you worked with me. And she just worked next to me. She had her own thing, but she just worked beside me. And I was like, this is nice. And over time, eventually was like, hey, maybe you wanna work on my thing with me? And she was like, yeah, that sounds good. It was a little bit more than that, but like fundamentally, I got her to switch, switch to working on it with me. And at that point, what we got to talk about was what we were creating together. And to me, that's been, you know, the journey of my life. And it's been, it's been amazing.

• 3:00:49Alex Hormozi?

  And I'm not saying it works for everyone. I'm saying it probably doesn't work for most people. Uh, but it has worked really well for me. And it would make sense for me that my path would be different than most people's because I don't behave like most people. And so, I would have to have a different formula for how I derive, you know, meaning or joy from my own life. And since I don't believe in inherent meaning, um, just the meaning that we choose to ascribe to things, then it's up to me to create that meaning within the work that I do. And so, the reason acquisition.com was all based on, and it was during that year where I just basically had nothing to do, where I was like, what do I wanna do with my life? Because I don't need to work anymore. And that was, you know, we'd taken 40 out before the sale, and then we obviously got the sale, so like, I don't need to work. I like to work.

• 3:01:33Alex Hormozi?

  And I, I try to spend, I look at, you know, I had this boss that told me this, and was one of the, one of the catalysts for, for looking at life this way. She said, I had just had like a good weekend or something, and I came in like chipper. And she said, well, you must've had a good weekend. And I was like, yeah, it was, it was good. And she said, this was like an offhanded comment, and she said, I'm pretty sure the key to happiness is living as many days in a row like that as you can. And it was actually like really operational like I could I was like I can use this like what are the good days? How do I live as many of those days in a row as I can? And so I've, you know, I've been attacked for like saying that I don't really enjoy going on vacation very much. And it's because like, I just want to get, I just want to get back to doing the thing that I really enjoy doing.

• 3:02:15Alex Hormozi?

  And I remember we, Leila and I went to Mexico this year for a week. And it's always during the week of Christmas because no one works and it drives me nuts. And I've just like, I've, I've just given up trying to get, you know, work. Because even if my team will work, because my team will, because they, they're crazy too. Other teams won't and vendors won't and suspend anyway. And so while we were there, all I came out with was like, this is for other people and not me. Comma, and that's okay.

• 3:02:40Steven Bartlett?

  Earlier on, when we were talking about.

• 3:02:41Alex Hormozi?

  Sorry, that was a long rant.

• 3:02:42Steven Bartlett?

  No, it was beautiful because it, so a couple of takeaways from it, but earlier on, we were talking about being a great content creator is a byproduct of having the courage to be yourself. And from that, everything you just said.

• 3:02:55Alex Hormozi?

  My soliloquy.

• 3:02:56Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I also gleaned something similar, which is being happy requires the same thing, which is the courage to be yourself. And in both, in the previously analogy, you said, everybody is unique.

• 3:03:08Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:08Steven Bartlett?

  And that is their value as it relates to showing up in marketing or with whatever product they have. But also, when I think about Alex's story, your story, and all you went through with your father and the early experiences and that consultancy firm, the gym, the fur place you worked. Logically, from first principles, the thing that's going to make you happy, because you are completely unique, is going to be completely different from everybody else.

• 3:03:32Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 3:03:33Steven Bartlett?

  Like, to varying degrees, depending on how you're sort of defining your early experiences are. But I actually think, we talked about the courage of being yourself. There's also the courage of being happy. And with the courage of being happy, you have to withstand public pressure. The shoulds, you said, from your parents, whatever, from social media, especially as you become a bigger creator, to actually just listen to how you feel every day.

• 3:03:57Alex Hormozi?

  Can I, can I throw something out that I think might like, so this blew my mind. So I was in around that same period of time, I, because I talked to everybody I could to try and get context on this. And so I, I called a friend of mine up, or not friend, I would say acquaintance that I got connected with, who'd sold his company for hundreds of millions of dollars, really bright guy. And one of the questions I asked him, I said, so how do you, how do you drive meaning from your life? And he said, an answer that really, really shook me. Which doesn't happen that much, given my worldview. He said, "Why do you think that life needs to be meaningful?"

• 3:04:35Alex Hormozi?

  And it was just this really interesting question, which is basically that I had an unspoken demand of the universe. Life should be meaningful. I should be happy. And so it's the shoulds that we don't even know that we think and say that are the ones that change us the most hardcore. And so my favorite quote of all time, which is probably at the front of a few of the books that I have, and will probably be the one that'll be on my tombstone, is a permutation of an Orson Scott Card quote, which is, "We question all of our beliefs, except for those that we truly believe and those we never think to question." And so I would say that a lot of my entrepreneurial, or even just human, journey has been, what are the beliefs that I so, so inherently believe that I don't even see them? I don't even think about the should. And so when he said that to me, I was like, whoa.

• 3:05:20Alex Hormozi?

  I have had this inherent demand of the universe that my life be meaningful. And now people would hear this and be like, they have their shoulds, and they're gonna say, "Well, it should be meaningful." And I'm like, "Why? According to what?" And if we look at history, history pretty much sweeps everyone under the bed, like, within 100 years. And within 1,000 years, basically everyone, and the people that we remember, we remember some of their works. And we go 100,000 years in the future, or 10,000 years in the future, probably unlikely that we will be remembered in general. And that is solving for the idea that we need to be remembered. Again, we have to. Why? And so my solving has been for degrees of freedom and responsibility.

• 3:06:05Alex Hormozi?

  So what are the things that I can control? And I will do the very best of my ability to try and do the things within my control to ideally make other people's lives better and my own in the process. Now, that is a choice rather than I demand that of the universe.

• 3:06:21Alex Hormozi?

  And this gets really abstract and heady really fast. And so I will try and bring us back down to earth. But by demanding that life be meaningful, by demanding that I be happy.

• 3:06:33Alex Hormozi?

  When I understood that I was demanding these things and pursuing them, that they were outside of me by saying, I need to do this, that I created inherent space that I could never gap or I could never close. And so by trying to forget or eliminate the demand is where it was the first time that I experienced those things. And so I try to keep them out of my head to the greatest degree possible so that I can be inside of them. That sounds weird. Rather than in pursuit. And so that, and so the times where I derive the most joy from my life, if I'm optimizing for that, which is, I wouldn't necessarily say that I am optimizing for joy.

• 3:07:15Alex Hormozi?

  I think Williamson was like, you definitely optimize for purpose or meaning or something like that. And I kind of reject a lot of it, mostly because I do what I have been rewarded for doing in the past. And so because I have a behaviorist view of the world, which is that everything boils down to behaviors. Why do I do these things? I do these things because when I have done it in the past, I have enjoyed the result. And so I continue to do things that I have enjoyed the result of. And if other people have done things that they enjoy the result of, then I encourage you to keep doing them. And I also encourage you to not project that other people need to also do those things and that they will experience the same result as you because they might not.

• 3:07:51Steven Bartlett?

  Alex, thank you.

• 3:07:54Alex Hormozi?

  Oh.

• 3:07:55Steven Bartlett?

  That was such a beautiful way to end. And I've, it's so interesting because if people attack you for that, I just wanted to give my own perspective is when I hear you say these things about not enjoying holidays and

• 3:08:09Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah.

• 3:08:10Steven Bartlett?

  Things about your relationship with Leila and how that happens. For me, I feel, even if I don't agree with a hundred percent, I probably get to 95% to be honest with you. The fact that you're telling me that you're different makes my difference, whatever it might be, feel

• 3:08:28Steven Bartlett?

  Acceptable. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 3:08:31Alex Hormozi?

  I 100% know what you're saying.

• 3:08:32Steven Bartlett?

  Because when I heard you say these things and I go, oh my God, Alex feels like he's different from the normal two. We might not be, me and Alex aren't the same, but we both feel inherently like we're not playing by the rules and therefore in some way getting life wrong based on this like public narrative of the way we should live our lives. I thought, amazing. I remember watching the video where you talked about not liking going on holidays and being like absolutely obsessed. And me thinking, oh my God, I'm so fucking glad he said that. Because deep in my heart somewhere, I felt a guilt.

• 3:09:03Alex Hormozi?

  Yeah. Oh.

• 3:09:04Steven Bartlett?

  You know, a guilt. And I'm like, where did the guilt come from?

• 3:09:07Alex Hormozi?

  Right.

• 3:09:07Steven Bartlett?

  I'm doing it, something that I love every single day, but I feel guilty. Well, I feel guilty because of other people's shoulds, right? So please, Alex, despite any critics that might be out there, please continue to have the courage to be yourself. Because you have no idea how it's making a group of weirdos that feel like they don't fit in, feel heard and understood for their variance.

• 3:09:28Alex Hormozi?

  Well, that is my, yeah, I mean, I make it for them.

• 3:09:32Steven Bartlett?

  We have a closing tradition on this podcast, as you know, where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest, not knowing who they're leaving him for.

• 3:09:39Alex Hormozi?

  Oh, God.

• 3:09:40Steven Bartlett?

  I'm laughing because it's so ironic.

• 3:09:42Alex Hormozi?

  Okay.

• 3:09:45Steven Bartlett?

  What is the meaning of life?

• 3:09:50Alex Hormozi?

  Well, the short answer is obviously 42.

• 3:09:57Alex Hormozi?

  I actually do think it's learning.

• 3:10:00Alex Hormozi?

  Because if we think about what learning is, it's that you're exposed to new conditions that over time change your behavior. And so you are different now than you were 10 years ago, because you've learned more things. And so if we think about the meaning of life as what is the output of life. So I actually do really like this. So people talk, I can relate this to business, of course. I can relate what's the meaning of life to business. But what is the meaning of a business? The purpose of the business is, is whatever the output of that business is.

• 3:10:40Alex Hormozi?

  That's the meaning. It's what the output of that business is. And so if the mission, like with Elon, is like to get to Mars, then the output of the mission is that people get to Mars. And so that's the meaning of that business. And so the meaning of life in general for me, I think for all humans, is that the output of experience is learning. And so we will learn regardless, whether we want to or not, we learn. Learning happens whether you want, whether you like it or not, you will learn. And I think that that's where I would just leave it. And the question is, are you learning the things that you want?

• 3:11:21Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. I highly recommend people go and check out the new format you launched on your YouTube channel. It's titled Building a $1 Million Business for a Stranger in 56 Minutes. It's kind of like a new take on Shark Tank, but it's more actionable, more practical. It's what you referenced earlier, and I know it took you many, many, many, many hours to perfect it, but it's a really interesting format that I think YouTube is seeking because it's so actionable and practical. And I highly recommend, I'll link that below, but I would also highly recommend people go and check out these books. I mean, they've been, to say they've been smash hits is a massive understatement.

• 3:11:51Alex Hormozi?

  Thank you.

• 3:11:52Steven Bartlett?

  I mean, I just see it everywhere. I feel like it's a prerequisite of any entrepreneur's toolkit when they're starting and they're trying to figure out frameworks for scaling a business, making sales, generating leads. And I know there's another one on the way, which you won't tell me about, but I know it's coming this year, which is volume three of this, this format. And I'm exceptionally excited to see it. And for any entrepreneurs out there that are looking to get in business with you, I highly recommend they go check out acquisition.com because there's so much there, regardless of where you are in the cycle, whether you're starting out, whether you're scaling up, whether you're looking for advice, acquisition.com is the place to be. Thank you, Alex, for your generosity. I appreciate it. And thank you for all that you do. Thank you for being weird and different. Because like that's, again, that's the value. That's all the value in the world. We don't need more of the same. We need people that have the courage to be themselves

• 3:12:37Steven Bartlett?

  and the courage to be happy. And that's exactly who you are, and I really, really appreciate it.

• 3:12:42Alex Hormozi?

  Thank you so much.

• 3:12:47Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't this cool? Every single conversation I have here on the Diary of a CEO, at the very end of it, you'll know, I ask the guest to leave a question in the Diary of a CEO. And what we've done is we've turned every single question written in the Diary of a CEO into these Conversation Cards that you can play at home. So you've got every guest we've ever had, their question, and on the back of it, if you scan that QR code, you get to watch the person who answered that question. We're finally revealing all of the questions and the people that answered the question. The brand new version two updated Conversation Cards are out right now at theconversationcards.com.

• 3:13:32Steven Bartlett?

  They've sold out twice instantaneously. So if you are interested in getting hold of some limited edition Conversation Cards, I really, really recommend acting quickly.