BS Disclaimers, Invisible Armies, and the Importance of the Words We Choose

Brené and Adam discuss the power — and peril — of the words we choose. They dive into two Machiavellian communication tools that often do more harm than good: the "Invisible Army" and "BS Disclaimers". Brené explains why leading with “we” or “but” often comes across as requesting permission to escape accountability, which ultimately sacrifices trust more than anything. Adam explores how these tools can sometimes serve as survival strategies in toxic cultures, leading to a conversation on psychological safety, groupthink, and why precision of language is more important than ever — especially in a world that still judges based on gender and identity. You can find The Curiosity Shop on ⁠YouTube⁠ and ⁠Instagram⁠ (@thecuriosityshop). 0:00 - Introduction 1:10 - The Invisible Army 15:23 - Speaking Up and Pluribus 21:26 - ‘But’ or Escaping Accountability? 40:59 - Responsibility Versus Accountability 46:22 - Judgment Based on Gender and Identity 1:01:55 - Takeaways From Today’s Episode Armored Versus Daring Leadership, Part 2 of 2 - Brené Brown, 2021, Dare to Lead (Podcast) Getting credit for proactive behavior: Supervisor reactions depend on what you value and how you feel - Grant et al., 2009, Personnel Psychology Plur1bus - Gilligan et al., 2025 - Present, Sony Pictures; Apple TV+ (TV series) Does Performance Improve Following Multisource Feedback? A Theoretical Model, Meta-Analysis, and Review of Empirical Findings - Smither et al., 2005, Personnel Psychology Feedback effectiveness: Can 360-degree appraisals be improved? - DeNisi et al., 2000, Academy of Management Perspectives What Makes a 360-Degree Review Successful? - Zenger and Folkman, 2020, Harvard Business Review The bullshit asymmetry [sic]: the amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger - Brandolini, A., 2013, Twitter The power of powerless speech: The effects of speech style and task interdependence on status conferral - Fragale, 2006, Organizational Behavior and Human Decision Processes How Can Women Escape the Compensation Negotiation Dilemma? Relational Accounts Are One Answer - Bowles et al., 2013, Psychology of Women Quarterly Likeable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve - Fragale, 2024, Doubleday Strong Ground: The Lessons of Daring Leadership, the Tenacity of Paradox, and the Wisdom of the Human Spirit - Brené Brown, 2025, Random House Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

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• 1:29Speaker 02

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• 1:48Adam Grant?

  Welcome to The Curiosity Shop. A show from the Fox Media Podcast Network.

• 1:58Brené Brown?

  Hi, everyone. I'm Brené Brown.

• 2:00Adam Grant?

  And I'm Adam Grant.

• 2:02Brené Brown?

  And today, we're here to watch Adam be really generous to me. I don't want to be wrong on this topic today. I do not, I cannot be wrong on this topic today. I am very vested in my rightness.

• 2:18Adam Grant?

  Wow, okay, so you're already appealing to my core values in asking me to violate other values.

• 2:25Brené Brown?

  You sort that shit out on your own, but I need to be right. You sort your value hierarchy over there, you do that over there. But we're going to talk about two insidious Machiavellian communication tools that people use that are my least favorite in the whole world.

• 2:48Adam Grant?

  I can't wait, but I should say, a wise friend once told me, "It's more important to get it right than to be right."

• 2:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I call bullshit, but, okay. So I think we all know this first one. It is, I'm guilty of doing it, and I've been on the receiving end of it. And it's hard. I call it in my work, "The Invisible Army." So in a work context, you're my boss, and I come up to you and I say, "Hey, Adam, we're really exhausted. All of us are really tired of the way these priorities are shifting. We're really kind of sick of the pressure on us to do more with less, and we need a break." What's your first instinct there?

• 3:37Adam Grant?

  I want to hear more.

• 3:38Brené Brown?

  Okay, well, let me tell you my first instinct. Let's turn the scenario around. You come to me and say, "We're all exhausted, we're tired, with the constant reprioritizations killing us, we need a break." I'm going to want to look at you and say, "You got a mouse in your pocket? Like, who's 'we'?" I cannot, this invisible army, we all think, we all believe, we're all wondering.

• 4:05Brené Brown?

  Like, come to me with the I. That's important enough. But for me, the invisible army of the people that are backing up your, you know, and even in, in, in personal, in the personal world. Listen, we're all, we, we, we're all really disappointed by this. Or, you know, we all think you should talk to dad about this.

• 4:28Adam Grant?

  This is so fascinating. This is exactly the kind of communication I teach.

• 4:33Brené Brown?

  You teach people to say we?

• 4:35Adam Grant?

  Absolutely. It's, I mean, it signals that you're not selfish, that you're thinking about the good of the group.

• 4:41Brené Brown?

  No.

• 4:42Adam Grant?

  You know, you're, you're not raising something that's idiosyncratic. It's actually relevant to everyone.

• 4:47Brené Brown?

  It's chicken shit. I, I, I completely disagree. Unless you're willing to say to me, hey, Adam, do you have a second? Um, I sat down and spoke with Sabrina, Jose and Jack around what's going on. And we kind of came up with some ideas. They were not able to meet with you and, but they said that I could talk to you about this. I mean, I, I think it's terrible. Like, I, I, I literally, like, unless you have a critter in your pocket, I don't ever want to hear your invisible army.

• 5:24Adam Grant?

  Okay, I do. I want to hear it all the time, but I don't, I don't want it to be invisible. So I think what you just outlined is ideal in an environment with high psychological safety. That's, that's the standard I'm aspiring to all the time. And anyone should be able to speak on behalf of the group, or ideally, everyone is speaking independently for themselves. In environments that lack psychological safety, if you're in a culture of fear, if you're in a culture of blame and shame, um, it's, it's really risky to put yourself out there. And so if I'm the one to come to you and say, hey, I've heard a lot of people complaining about this. Everyone else is afraid to tell you. That for me, that's an act of courage, right? Because I'm the messenger and I might get shot. And it's so important that I'm willing to raise it anyway, on behalf of the group.

• 6:07Brené Brown?

  You did not say we once in your role model here. You said.

• 6:10Adam Grant?

  Oh, I'm not role modeling it. I'm, I'm explaining.

• 6:13Brené Brown?

  I'm just saying, you said, I'm coming to you because here's what I'm hearing. And I think other people are concerned about it, so I wanted to let you know. That is not the invisible army.

• 6:23Adam Grant?

  Isn't it though?

• 6:24Brené Brown?

  No.

• 6:24Adam Grant?

  Aren't they less visible?

• 6:25Brené Brown?

  No, no, no, that is, no. I think that's very different than you arming yourself with we all believe, we all think. You're saying, I'm observing this. I wanted to let you know about my observation. You're not representing, you're not, you're not representing a delegation, a fake delegation of fake ass people. Um, because you're, you're not using the I statement. And so.

• 6:55Adam Grant?

  That's so interesting.

• 6:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I think, I think this is really important because literally this invisible army. And the way it plays out in family dynamics is, you know, my sisters and I talk about this all the time. Yeah, we all think you're being a real asshole here. Like, we who? I'm not gonna say, because, you know, again, because you're an asshole. No, no, like, if you think I'm being asshole, I want to hear that from you. But again, unless you've got people in your pocket, and if you do, bring them out and then de-shrink them up to human size and let's have a real adult conversation. I think the invisible army, I think if you're teaching people

• 7:41Brené Brown?

  to have the courage to say, there's something going on I think you should know about. I can't speak clearly to people's comfort levels about coming to you, but here's something I'm seeing. I think it's getting in the way of the work we're doing. And I wanted to let you know about it. That's really respectful and thoughtful. If you're coming in and leading.

• 8:00Adam Grant?

  This is so fascinating.

• 8:01Brené Brown?

  Yeah, if you're leading with we all think, I, I, I'm gonna want to know who. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell you why this is such, why this is so important right now. The change, the velocity and volume of change right now is so untenable that there are no way, there's no way people can keep up. We, we can't keep everybody informed every second about the changes that are happening. In the absence of data, we make up stories. We just know that because we're a meaning-making species.

• 8:37Brené Brown?

  It does require psychological safety and good and daring, really good daring leadership to say to your team, listen, I'll tell you what I know when I know. If you find yourself making up stories about what's happening, I want you to check them out with me. And it's as simple as saying, hey, the story I'm making up right now is this. When you start using invisible armies, you are taking small collections of fire and pouring gasoline on them. And it is, it creates such a toxic environment. We all believe, we all think.

• 9:15Adam Grant?

  So I have, I have a different reaction to this. I think the two versions that you think are so different for me are almost identical. And so let me, let me actually just react to what you just said. I think when you say it creates a toxic environment to bring an invisible army, I, what I see is people are doing that because they're in a toxic environment. That is a survival strategy. I'm coming to you and I'm saying, hey, I've been elected by a group of people who are too afraid to even give you their names. I, I'm speaking up because I think you're going to lose some really amazing people and they're, they're just too nervous to even put their, you know, their thoughts out

• 9:57Adam Grant?

  there in a way that could damage their reputation or their relationship with you. And I know that it's ironic that, that this is my reaction, not yours, because you're the one of the two of us who's normally more sensitive to, to power differences, right? And I just look at this and I see, I'm not like, when, when someone comes to you and they have the invisible army, yeah, I get, I get that in some cases, you know, it's a strategy and they're, they're trying to bolster credibility or they're trying to build up support for something that they know is a little self-serving or, you know, kind of just a, a personal ask. But that's not, that's not how I see it unfold in most of the organizations I work with. I see people do this when they feel they have no other choice.

• 10:38Adam Grant?

  And they say, okay, look, this is a culture in which people do not speak truth to power. And so this is the only way I can do that safely.

• 10:47Brené Brown?

  So this, this is, this is going to maybe get too nuanced for the podcast where listeners and watchers are going to be like, what's happening here? Again, I did not hear you in your example, use an invisible army.

• 11:04Brené Brown?

  I heard you, I heard you take.

• 11:09Brené Brown?

  I heard you take full responsibility for what you were doing. I'm coming to you.

• 11:15Brené Brown?

  I was elected by a group of people who are fearful about coming to you. To let you know these things. That is very different than saying. We believe, we feel, we want. That, that, that, those are, those are to me.

• 11:36Brené Brown?

  Even neuro linguistically, very different things.

• 11:41Adam Grant?

  Okay, that's, that's a helpful distinction. Now, okay.

• 11:45Adam Grant?

  So when you said invisible army originally, I was thinking, okay, you're objecting to any time. I come and speak on behalf of a group, but you don't know who they are. And you're only objecting to a subset of that when I'm claiming to proxy a bunch of people who are hidden or unknown. And I'm not willing to even take ownership over the fact that I agree with them.

• 12:07Brené Brown?

  Right. Huge difference.

• 12:09Adam Grant?

  Yeah, that is a big difference. I agree with that.

• 12:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I have to tell you that like. When I think about this from an organizational perspective as a former union steward. That was my job.

• 12:22Brené Brown?

  You know. But in, in, not until this very second sitting here. Did I even think. About the possibility that that's where this training came from. So as a union steward. I oft, I, I had to be, I never. I was trained to never say, we believe, we feel. Now, I was trained to believe there's a problem on the floor.

• 12:51Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 12:52Brené Brown?

  This is what's generating fear. It's getting in the way of work. It's creating burnout and call ins, call outs. So that's different because I'm taking responsibility for coming to you with a problem that I'm observing. I'm not pretending to represent. Exactly how people feel and think and believe because I'm scared, I'm scared that me believing and thinking and feeling it isn't enough.

• 13:19Adam Grant?

  Yes. Yeah, I've never, I've, yes. I have never noticed this distinction until you brought it up and I, I think it's important and right.

• 13:30Adam Grant?

  You know, it reminds me of some research I published years ago with Sharon Parker and Catherine Collins, where we studied how often people spoke up with concerns and suggestions. And we were interested in whether supervisors valued and appreciated it, or whether they tended to reject it. And what our data showed was that supervisors liked it if you were doing it for pro-social reasons. If it seemed like you were trying to help the group, and you were bringing up a problem or a solution that could benefit the whole team. But if supervisors perceived it as self-serving rather than benevolent, they tended to dismiss it or even penalize it. And I've always then assumed that the "we" language is a way of signaling, hey, this is a collective problem, and I'm trying to help all of us.

• 14:16Adam Grant?

  But I think you're right that if you do that in a way that essentially says, yeah, there's a group with a uniform opinion, and I'm going to tell you, I have read all their minds, I have captured all of their feelings and thoughts, and I'm going to tell you everything that they want, that's not credible. That is manipulative.

• 14:38Brené Brown?

  Okay, so that's the thing that we're trying to avoid here in communication. For me, well, to be honest with you, if you come in and say, "We all believe this," or "We all think this," I immediately don't trust you.

• 14:53Adam Grant?

  I don't either, and it's not just you. I now have doubts about your group too, because if you're telling me the truth, best-case scenario, then we're in the middle of group think. You've got a bunch of people who are hive-minded, and they're just clones of each other. They're not thinking independently. They're not coming to their own conclusions. They're sharing all of the same assumptions, and that means their thinking is faulty and flawed. So I don't want to listen to it, even if you're being honest with me.

• 15:17Brené Brown?

  Right, and so just listen for the accountability shift here.

• 15:26Brené Brown?

  I wanted to talk to you about something I'm observing in the team. And I'm not sure whether you're hearing this from other people or not, but I feel like it's an important thing to talk to you about. Here's what I'm seeing, and here's how it's disrupting work, and here's how it's creating a lot of anxiety and self-doubt. This is my observation.

• 15:49Brené Brown?

  I came in to tell you that we all think this. We're all feeling this and we all believe this.

• 15:55Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 15:56Brené Brown?

  And if I come back to you and say, well, I don't understand why. No, no, no, no, don't get mad at me. No, no, I'm just saying that this is what everybody's thinking. This is what everybody's feeling. So I think precision, especially right now when shit is so hard, precision of language as it relates to what you're representing and what you're accountable for is, I was gonna say king, but is even more important than that, it's queen.

• 16:27Adam Grant?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 16:34Speaker 00

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes. Earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 17:18Speaker 00

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes. Earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.

• 18:03Speaker 05

  Support for today's episode comes from Delta, official airline of the National Women's Soccer League. Traveling is basically magic. It creates opportunities, it fosters understanding, it expands horizons, it connects people and communities to each other and to their own potential. Those are the values that drive Delta. With up to 5,500 daily Delta and Delta Connection flights to more than 300 destinations on six continents, Delta is committed to helping you explore your world. Whatever gives you the travel bug, Delta is here to help you get there. Visit delta.com for more info. Delta, wherever the journey takes you.

• 18:48Adam Grant?

  Okay, I want to, I want to talk about, I think it sounds like we're going to talk a lot about language today, which is great, because you and I are both word nerds.

• 18:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:56Adam Grant?

  And I think, I don't think enough people spend enough time choosing their words carefully. Before, before we, we talk more about language, two things that jumped out at me on this. Number one, have you, have you been watching Pluribus?

• 19:10Brené Brown?

  I can't. I tried, I wanted to, I just, it's so, it, I go to bed at night and I can't stop thinking about it. Like, I, I can't. So, but tell me, tell me what you're seeing and watching. I'm obsessed with the whole concept.

• 19:28Adam Grant?

  I'm only two episodes in and I don't want to spoil it for people who haven't seen it, but.

• 19:31Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 19:32Adam Grant?

  The, the reaction I had watching it and seeing the way that a collective communicates as one, gave me the same ick that your, "we all believe, and we all think, and we all want", gave me.

• 19:45Brené Brown?

  Oh, God, that's so interesting.

• 19:48Adam Grant?

  I think anybody who wants to understand viscerally why you're so bothered by one claiming to fully represent a whole, just go watch two episodes of Pluribus. Done.

• 20:00Brené Brown?

  Is, I mean, I heard the acting's amazing. Is it just?

• 20:04Adam Grant?

  It's, it's been stunning so far, but.

• 20:07Brené Brown?

  Wow, okay.

• 20:08Adam Grant?

  More, more to watch.

• 20:09Brené Brown?

  Maybe I'll try it again. Okay, what's the other thing you wanted to, like, I love this, I love this pop culture reference.

• 20:15Adam Grant?

  Okay, the, the other one's the opposite of pop culture, but I was just thinking about this, you know, this, how do you approach speaking up in a low versus high psychological safety climate? Question that we were talking about. And one of the questions I get asked a lot, I get, I get tons of questions from managers and leaders about, should we do an anonymous survey of our people? Or should we make the survey identified? And I've always been torn on this, and I'm curious to hear your take because like the, let me say this differently, I think, an anonymous survey is an invisible army of sorts, but I don't think it's the kind you object to.

• 20:56Brené Brown?

  No, because I think anonymous survey

• 21:00Brené Brown?

  is individuals. There's not a, there's not a representation, there's not a royal we there. So I think there's, there's a representation, a one-on-one representation of data to person, even if that person is de-identified or anonymous. I, I, I think whenever I, of course, I get this question often as well. The thing that's, the, the first thing, because I work from kind of the social work ethic of do no harm first, the first thing that always comes up for me is how anonymous really is your anonymous survey? What's your sample size? How's it being reported? Is it tied to IP address? I would never commit to anonymity

• 21:41Brené Brown?

  if it's not true anonymity, which really is about team size and all kinds of technology stuff. And I think for me, the answer to that question is always, what is your intention? You know, what are you trying to, I have really mixed feelings about 360s as well. I, I, there's, I, I've worked with one company out of 30 that does it well. You know, um, yeah, they're hard and they're flawed. And a flawed, a 360 that has flawed design, flawed implementation and flawed analysis can just blow up a team and a person.

• 22:25Adam Grant?

  Yeah, I've, I've, I've seen it happen. And you know, the, the survey dilemma is interesting because I think on one level, I, I want, I want to get to a point where people can say what they really think and put their names on it. But the bigger the organization, the larger the team, the harder that is. And so one of the things I've, yeah, I've sometimes had leaders say, but you know, I, I create, I create an environment where, you know, everyone can tell me the truth. My door is always open. Um, you know, I'm, I'm non-threatening, I'm, I'm inclusive. And sometimes I say, okay, let's run the test. Ask people to give you direct feedback and then we're going to do an anonymous survey.

• 23:09Adam Grant?

  And the larger the gap is between what people say to your face and what they say under the cover of secrecy, the more of a problem you have with psychological safety. And I think, I think there's some, there's something to be said for, let's let people be invisible, but let's not have one person claim to be in charge of the army.

• 23:30Brené Brown?

  I, I think that's, I think that's exactly right. The biggest problem with the invisible army is the purported representation. And so, yeah, and I think the other thing that is interesting to me is if, I always ask leaders, if their door is open and they're receptive to feedback, then why are they asking me about doing an anonymous survey? I mean, you, you would know. The other thing is I, I am pro anonymity in any culture where there are not open conversations about power. So that's my litmus test. If you talk openly about power, if you talk openly about identity, if you talk about,

• 24:11Brené Brown?

  you know, being the only anything in a room, if you, if, if those are just kind of normative cultural conversations, then I'm more open to believing.

• 24:23Brené Brown?

  That the door is really open. If any conversation about power or equity is off limits, then, you know, I'd wear gloves when I completed the anonymous survey. Yeah, just, yeah.

• 24:36Adam Grant?

  That's a great point.

• 24:39Brené Brown?

  Okay, do you want to go to the next one? And this, I'm probably more loaded for bear on this one than even the first one. Wait, why are you laughing?

• 24:47Adam Grant?

  I, I'm just laughing because you were the one who said a few episodes ago, like, we, we shouldn't try to amplify tension. We should just, you know, share and then see where the tension emerges. And here you are saying, I am loaded. I want to be right.

• 25:02Brené Brown?

  I do want to be right here because these are like, these are, this one is really tough. So I'll introduce this by saying, I call these bullshit disclaimers. I know there are other terms in the, in the research for them, but they're wrong. And then I want to, let me just give you the first one. Anything that starts with, look, I don't mean to be critical, but. I don't mean to be shitty, but I hate to be rude, but.

• 25:31Adam Grant?

  That's my least favorite one. Not to be rude, but.

• 25:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 25:34Adam Grant?

  You're about to say something really inappropriate and offensive. Thank you for giving me a heads up.

• 25:38Brené Brown?

  That's it. So let me translate those for you. I'm going to be like the translator. When someone says, I don't mean, I don't mean to be critical, but what they're saying is, I'm getting ready to be very critical and I do not want to be held accountable for that behavior. When they say, hey, listen, I don't mean to be shitty, Adam, but they're getting ready to be shitty, but they don't want to be held accountable for being shitty. That, this is the translation here. Here's, here's the translation ring. Look, not to be rude, but. Translation?

• 26:09Brené Brown?

  I'm fixing to be really rude. I do not want to be held accountable for it. That's what's happening here. Thoughts. These are hedges, soft openings. They're called a lot of things. I call them bullshit, but go ahead.

• 26:23Adam Grant?

  I love it. I love it. These, these disclaimers, the, the kinds of disclaimers that you're talking about, which are a different kind than the sort I want to defend.

• 26:32Brené Brown?

  Okay, great.

• 26:33Adam Grant?

  Which is, which is good news, I think. The kind that you're talking about are, I never thought about it as escaping accountability.

• 26:40Brené Brown?

  Oh, 100%.

• 26:41Adam Grant?

  What I thought about it, it, but I, I think you're spot on. I, I had a, I had a different way of, of thinking about why those bother me, which is when somebody says not to be rude, but I think that they're, they're trying to, they're trying to preempt what they realize is a reasonable reaction and prevent you from having it.

• 27:01Brené Brown?

  I, yes.

• 27:05Adam Grant?

  And ironically, I think it has the opposite effect, right? It, it puts your guard up and leaves you to say, wait a minute. You're, what, why are you mentioning rudeness? Why are you saying not to be critical? You must have had a critical thought. And so I think it's, it's counterproductive regardless of, you know, regardless of what the person's intent is, that they're, they're trying to escape accountability. It doesn't work because it draws your attention to the very thing that they're trying to minimize.

• 27:31Brené Brown?

  Yes, and it's, it is absolutely a, it's an accountability trap door. And I'm just realizing again, in real time, for the first time, that the reason I do not like the invisible army or the bullshit disclaimer is for the same reason. It lacks accountability. They, I, I just don't like the lack of accountability. So what, what I teach people do, and I, I mentor a lot of women, and I mentor a lot of women who are first time college graduates, undergrad graduates that are getting PhDs, and they're on the receiving end of these things all

• 28:15Brené Brown?

  the time. And so I think to combat the bullshit disclaimer.

• 28:21Brené Brown?

  I like to go to, I want to share this with you. It's one of my favorite things. It's Alberto Brandolini's. I love this. The bullshit asymmetry principle. Do you know it?

• 28:32Adam Grant?

  I love Brandolini's laws.

• 28:33Brené Brown?

  Okay. Brandolini's bullshit asymmetry principle. The amount of energy needed to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.

• 28:44Brené Brown?

  And so you have to do some work to, to, to really combat this. So let's do a role play. Are you game?

• 28:52Adam Grant?

  I'm ready.

• 28:52Brené Brown?

  Okay. I want you to say, look, I really don't want to be critical, but like you're starting a sentence.

• 29:01Adam Grant?

  Renee, I don't want to be critical, but.

• 29:03Brené Brown?

  Okay, wait, wait, let me stop you there. I'm so glad that you don't want to be critical. Do you want to take a few minutes to find a more productive way to share your feedback and coaching with me? Cause I'm really, I'm really grateful for your commitment to not be critical.

• 29:18Adam Grant?

  Wait, are you saying we're not allowed to be critical? I thought we wanted to have high standards and be discerning.

• 29:24Brené Brown?

  Oh no, we can be discerning and we can, I love the coaching and I love the feedback. But when you start a sentence with, I don't mean to be critical. What I hear is I'm going to be critical. I don't want to be accountable for the behavior. So I'm glad you're making a commitment to not do that.

• 29:41Brené Brown?

  Let's try it again. Like, this is one of my favorites. I actually took this from a real life experience. I'm not trying to tear you down, but.

• 29:53Brené Brown?

  So you try, you try the intervention here. Look, Adam, I'm not trying to tear you down, but.

• 29:59Adam Grant?

  Oh, oh, wait. Renee, it's really surprising to me that you would even think that I would think that you're trying to tear me down. We, we have a strong relationship. I know we care about each other. Why would tearing me down even cross your mind?

• 30:15Brené Brown?

  I love this, but okay, you get bonus points. A plus. This is what I mean. Like you have to have a little tolerance for interrupting, which I normally don't love.

• 30:25Brené Brown?

  But I think if you want to hold people accountable, you have to stop them right there before they get to the shitty part and say, "Great, I appreciate that commitment." Either, "Do you need more time to find a better, more productive way to give me some coaching or feedback?" Or, "Wow, what you just did was great. I'm gonna add it to my repertoire."

• 30:45Adam Grant?

  What did you like about it, so I can learn?

• 30:48Brené Brown?

  Oh, wait. You kind of stopped me, which you have to do. And then you said, "I'm surprised that tearing me down even came up for you. I would not expect that because we care for each other and we give each other tough feedback sometimes, but in a caring way. How did you get to tearing me down?" Again, it's an accountability shift.

• 31:12Adam Grant?

  Yeah. Yeah, it's asking you to be accountable for the phrase that you put on the table and the sentiment behind it. It's also, I mean, what I was trying to do there was just welcome you to the curiosity shop. I am, I'm so curious about why you would approach me from a tearing down lens. And you should be curious about that, too, I hope.

• 31:38Brené Brown?

  That's really interesting. I'm coming from the shut the fuck up lens, which is different than the welcome to the curiosity shop lens.

• 31:48Adam Grant?

  Okay, and why is that different? I think...

• 31:52Brené Brown?

  Why is what different?

• 31:54Adam Grant?

  Why do we approach this differently? We're trying to get to the same point. We're trying to accomplish the same thing. We have different styles. I don't know.

• 32:02Brené Brown?

  Are we? I'm trying to say, "Whoa, take accountability for what you're going to say and don't try to squirm out of accountability before you even say it." And I feel like you're trying to say, "Whoa, I'm surprised to hear that language from you. I'm curious where it's coming from."

• 32:28Brené Brown?

  I don't know that we are coming from this. You're coming from curiosity. I'm coming from accountability. I think they're different places, maybe.

• 32:39Adam Grant?

  Maybe. But do we want to land the person at the same place? I want to land it at the other person doing some questioning and rethinking of what their intentions were and what kind of relationship we have and saying, huh, I really, I really ought to approach both my goals and my communication style a little more thoughtfully.

• 33:02Brené Brown?

  Okay, that's really wild because let me tell you what happened when I was like, I'm going to add that to my repertoire. Let me tell you what immediately happened in my back processor. This is so wild that this is happening in real time. What happened in my back processor when I said, I'm going to add that to my, to my, my list of things to do is the people I thought about immediately were people I care about and with whom I have a relationship with.

• 33:30Brené Brown?

  So I think that if I care about you, what you're saying is better. Curiosity and connection and care is better than if I don't really know you. And I mean, I've had people stand up in a Q and A at an event and be like, listen, I don't mean to drag you in front of everybody. But I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Great. I want to hear what you have to say, but if you don't want to drag me, then think of a different way to say it.

• 34:00Adam Grant?

  Yeah. Yeah, okay. So our approaches are, yeah, I was thinking about this in the context of an established relationship.

• 34:07Brené Brown?

  Right. So I think in that, to say, whoa, whoa, great. Where, where did tear me down come from? Or I don't mean to be rude. Whoa, before you even go, I don't experience feedback from you as rude. I, I mostly experience it as helpful or at least coming from a place of concern or curiosity.

• 34:30Brené Brown?

  What about this is feeling like different, different for you or like it's going to be hard or rude?

• 34:37Adam Grant?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's really good.

• 34:39Brené Brown?

  But that's, that means tell me what that is. Let me tell you what you, let me tell you the difference between yours and mine.

• 34:46Brené Brown?

  To me, yours telegraphs care, connection and relationship. And mine telegraphs, your disclaimer will not get you out of accountability with me. I don't know you. I don't know what you're getting ready to say, but just know that that's not going to work. Two different populations.

• 35:05Adam Grant?

  Different populations, but also different speakers. I wonder, I'm just thinking about gender stereotypes here. It will surprise no one that women have to work harder to prove their competence than men. And so you asserting some degree of strength and authority, which gets taken for granted when I speak as a man, much more so, is that, is that partially gendered?

• 35:28Brené Brown?

  I was with you on the gendered part till you got to, till you got to the why the gendered about me, me doing this as a, as a, as a show of competence or competence even. I think the gender part that, that started to ring true for me was permission to be rude, critical, tear people down and tear people apart without being held accountable for it. That seems very male to me today.

• 35:56Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 35:57Brené Brown?

  And so, yeah.

• 35:58Adam Grant?

  And particularly to do that to a woman.

• 36:00Brené Brown?

  To a woman, right. With, yeah. And so, but other power differentials I think exist as well. And so there's other relationships where that, that plays out. I think the difference for me really comes down to, and it's quite clear in my mind, to be honest, investment. When I want to get under something and get curious about it, I want what like, what in coaching, Iko Bithia would call channel three communication, listening for connection. Not listening just to understand or listening to respond.

• 36:34Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Brené Brown?

  But real channel three, listening for care and connection. I'm not even on channel three if I don't know you. If I know you, I might respond with, whoa. I don't know what's going to come next, but the tearing down is not something we usually do together. I think that I, because I, I wouldn't, I always imagined if one of my kids said to me, I would have a hard time imagining because I don't, I don't think we talk like this to each other in our family, but if one of my kids said, look, mom, I don't mean to be rude, but.

• 37:06Brené Brown?

  I don't imagine saying, hey, then do you need more time to figure out something, you know, way to do this where that's not rude? I would imagine saying, whoa, before you even go there, I don't ever experience your feedback to me as rude.

• 37:19Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 37:21Brené Brown?

  Then I think I would say with one of my, I might say, do you want more time to think about what we're going to talk about or something? But I would be on channel three, communication.

• 37:31Adam Grant?

  And if you're, if you're dealing with a stranger or somebody you don't have a meaningful relationship with, it seemed like your motivation was more to neutralize it.

• 37:41Brené Brown?

  No.

• 37:41Adam Grant?

  You were gonna, almost like, you were almost preemptively putting the person in their place, or shutting down their tactic. No?

• 37:50Brené Brown?

  It wasn't neutralizing, it was, what's a nice way to say, proceed with caution?

• 37:59Brené Brown?

  Like, no, really.

• 37:59Adam Grant?

  Oh, so you're waving a red flag?

• 38:01Brené Brown?

  I'm waving a flag that said, I don't know what's coming next, but just because you started this way does not mean I'm not going to hold you accountable for the behavior. So let me just, let me, let me issue a preemptive caution here, that I recognize your disclaimer, I understand that the energy is going to take me to intervene right now is an order of magnitude greater than the bullshit you just created with your disclaimer.

• 38:28Brené Brown?

  So.

• 38:29Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 38:29Brené Brown?

  Be thoughtful.

• 38:32Adam Grant?

  Yeah, so it's a bit of a wake up call.

• 38:34Brené Brown?

  It, ah.

• 38:36Adam Grant?

  You are treading on thin ice.

• 38:39Brené Brown?

  Come on, wait until you get to the right one. Keep going, like, what were the other ones?

• 38:41Adam Grant?

  I'm trying to, I'm trying to find, I, I'm, I'm trying to, well, I'm, I'm cycling through the different things I thought as you were saying that. So another one was, no, that's not quite right either. What, let's do another one, actually, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to pay attention to my reaction in real time.

• 39:01Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 39:01Adam Grant?

  Um, okay, I've got one for you.

• 39:04Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 39:05Adam Grant?

  Okay, Brene.

• 39:07Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 39:08Adam Grant?

  I've been biting my tongue on this for a while, and just, no offense, but.

• 39:15Brené Brown?

  Okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 39:18Brené Brown?

  When you say no offense before you even start,

• 39:23Brené Brown?

  I get genuinely concerned that you're looking for permission to say something offensive.

• 39:29Brené Brown?

  And our relationship really means a lot to me. So if that's what's coming next, I wonder, I'd love to slow down a little bit and get underneath what's going on before we get there because I, when I hear no offense, I usually prep for getting offended and I don't want us to do that to each other.

• 39:53Adam Grant?

  Okay, okay, light bulb. Okay.

• 39:55Brené Brown?

  But this is my Channel 3 care curiosity. Okay.

• 40:01Adam Grant?

  Yeah, yeah, I felt, I felt that strongly, but I also, I felt something that I think is consistent across the different contexts, which is you are actually shifting the responsibility back to me. The way that I'm bringing this up.

• 40:14Brené Brown?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 40:17Adam Grant?

  Okay, good. Okay, we got it. So the way that I was bringing this up, no offense, but I'm acting like you are gonna unreasonably, like you are being unreasonable in taking offense.

• 40:29Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 40:29Adam Grant?

  But I, but I know you're the kind of person who might be delicate and sensitive. And so I'm putting it out there saying, hey, don't be that person. I'm not doing anything wrong. It's you. And so you need to adjust to what I'm about to say.

• 40:43Brené Brown?

  No, no. Not you are a delicate and sensitive person. I might be ready, I'm, I'm getting ready to be a dick. That's how I would see it. Like I'm, I'm giving myself permission.

• 40:58Adam Grant?

  Yes. No, no, we're.

• 40:59Brené Brown?

  Okay, cuz, cuz I'm giving myself permission to not be thoughtful by telling you to not take offense. Therefore, I don't have to do any work on my side to make sure that I'm giving you feedback or coaching in a non-offensive way.

• 41:16Adam Grant?

  Yes. Yeah, I, I think we're, we're actually saying the same thing here.

• 41:20Brené Brown?

  Okay, great.

• 41:20Adam Grant?

  What I'm, what I'm, what I'm trying to drive at is. I, I know that what I'm gonna say might be offensive. But instead of taking ownership over that and trying to make sure it's not offensive, or it's presented in a way that shows care or a desire to help.

• 41:37Brené Brown?

  Yes.

• 41:37Adam Grant?

  I am offloading that responsibility to you and leaving you wondering like, well, why, why would you say this? Are you like, do you think I'm the kind of person who takes offense easily?

• 41:50Brené Brown?

  Yes, exactly.

• 41:51Adam Grant?

  And, and when, when you cut it off and say, hey, wait a minute, why, why don't you pause and think about this for a second? You're putting that responsibility back in my hands where it belongs.

• 42:03Brené Brown?

  Okay, this is exactly everything.

• 42:08Adam Grant?

  It's something, it's definitely something.

• 42:10Brené Brown?

  It's everything, it's, we, we were using the word accountability as, as what both of these communication tools have in common. The invisible army and, but it's also about responsibility. When you come into my office and say, I'm observing something that I want to share with you because I have concerns, then you are taking responsibility for what you're getting ready to lay out on my desk. When you, when, when someone says, hey, let's pause for a second then. When you say, don't be, I don't want you to be offended. I'm wondering if we can, you know, if we can just get ahead of that. I am shifting.

• 42:55Brené Brown?

  How do you think differently about responsibility and accountability? I've never thought about it really before.

• 43:01Adam Grant?

  I think responsibility is, well, okay, I'm just, I'm just thinking about the research on this. Responsibility is a sense that, it's a, it's a sense of ownership that I take over my actions.

• 43:16Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 43:16Adam Grant?

  Or over a decision. Whereas accountability is me having to justify my actions to you.

• 43:24Brené Brown?

  Okay, I'm not tracking, say it again.

• 43:26Adam Grant?

  So responsibility is personal and accountability is interpersonal.

• 43:31Brené Brown?

  Okay, got it. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 43:32Adam Grant?

  So responsibility is something I can take, but you can hold me accountable.

• 43:36Brené Brown?

  Got it. Okay, that's super helpful.

• 43:38Adam Grant?

  I have to justify, explain and answer to you as opposed to when I'm responsible, I'm answering to myself.

• 43:46Brené Brown?

  God, then why don't we talk about radical responsibility instead of radical accountability?

• 43:51Adam Grant?

  Because we don't trust people to uphold their commitments to themselves. We think that they need to be held accountable by others.

• 44:00Adam Grant?

  I don't think that, but a lot of people think that.

• 44:02Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. It's like a whole nother podcast, I think.

• 44:07Adam Grant?

  It might be.

• 44:08Brené Brown?

  Yeah, so when, so it's interesting because I'm gonna get really nuanced here, but I think it's really important. I mean, I'm telling you, if you, if you, unless you are an island, if you have a partner, if you're a parent, if you have children, if you have friends, I think this is an important conversation because when I stop you, when you say, "Look, I don't mean to tear you down here, Brene, but," and I stop you, I think two things are happening. And I say, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, then let's stop before that even potentially could happen." There's two things happening there, Adam. One is, I need you before you start

• 44:49Brené Brown?

  to take responsibility for what you're going to say. And I will hold you accountable for what you say.

• 44:57Adam Grant?

  Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, jackpot. Yes.

• 44:59Brené Brown?

  Do you know what I mean?

• 45:00Adam Grant?

  You're asking me to take responsibility and you are making it clear upfront that if I don't, you are gonna hold me accountable. Yeah, that's exactly right.

• 45:09Brené Brown?

  Yeah, so, okay, let's, okay, let's keep that in mind. Let's, like, let's hold that in mind. So what, what these preemptive pauses, I like that better than interruptions when people are using these bullshit disclaimers. What they're doing is a combination of responsibility and accountability. So let's try it again. And I don't really know you. And so I don't know that I'm gonna be on Channel 3 communication with you looking for care and connection. I'm just going to, I'm just gonna probably say something. So why don't you say to me, "Look, I don't mean to be shitty about this." So why don't you try that with me?

• 45:48Adam Grant?

  I have to, I have to use one that I would actually consider saying.

• 45:51Brené Brown?

  Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I would say.

• 45:55Adam Grant?

  I don't like to think about myself as someone who would ever be shitty. So that might be wishful thinking, but here we go.

• 46:04Adam Grant?

  Brene, I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but it's really important to-

• 46:08Brené Brown?

  Okay, okay. Let me, can I just stop you there?

• 46:12Adam Grant?

  You already did.

• 46:13Brené Brown?

  Yeah. It worries me when you say that you don't mean to sound like a jerk. Because I don't experience you as a jerk. I can't do the other one with you because I'm always on Channel 3 Communication with you because we're friends. So I would just probably say, when you say you don't mean to sound like a jerk, I immediately kind of get defensive. And I also am curious about, we don't talk to each other like that. So do you want to take a pause and figure out another way that would be jerk-proof?

• 46:46Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 46:47Brené Brown?

  So there it is. Like, I need you to take responsibility for what you're going to say. And to say, "I don't mean to sound like a jerk," is not enough responsibility.

• 46:57Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 46:58Brené Brown?

  And if you are indeed a jerk to me, I will hold you accountable for it. And your disclaimer is not a get-out-of-jerk, you know, free card.

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• 48:58Adam Grant?

  Okay, so this is a big aha moment for me. Because this clarifies why I like another flavor of disclaimer and hedge.

• 49:11Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 49:12Adam Grant?

  The kind that I like are the opposite of making excuses.

• 49:17Adam Grant?

  They are, I love disclaimers and hedges that show interpersonal sensitivity, as opposed to showing a lack of sensitivity and a lack of concern and care for others. So can I walk you through some examples of the ones that I find myself advising?

• 49:33Brené Brown?

  I am on the edge of my chair with bated breath, and I'm a little nervous. Go ahead.

• 49:40Adam Grant?

  Okay. Brené, I might be wrong, but here's a thought.

• 49:47Adam Grant?

  Renee, I think this might be true, but I'm not 100% sure. What do you think? I love those. Do you want to react or you want me to tell you why the science has taught me to love them first?

• 50:03Brené Brown?

  Oh, you could tell me. I'm torn, I'm mixed, but I want to hear about the science and I'm, I want to hear about the science and then I'll walk through it with you. Go ahead.

• 50:13Adam Grant?

  Okay.

• 50:13Brené Brown?

  Tell me about the science.

• 50:15Adam Grant?

  All right.

• 50:15Brené Brown?

  I'm curious, I'm very curious.

• 50:18Adam Grant?

  Good, good. Okay, so there's, there's a solid body of evidence showing that if we are interdependent, if we're collaborating, if we're playing basketball as opposed to doing gymnastics, to use one of our new, our new favorite analogies, that you care as much about whether I'm interested in your opinion as you do about whether my opinions are right. And you're, you're vetting me on, on care, not just competence. And in those situations, it's really important for me to show that I'm, I'm willing to consider your view, that I'm not just locked into my view. I have to balance assertiveness and openness.

• 51:01Adam Grant?

  So Alison Fergal calls this the power of powerless speech. And she finds that when, when people are evaluating a potential teammate, and I imagine this is true also when they're looking at a possible partner on, on a first date, that they, they look at these disclaimers and hedges and think, okay, this person is not going to be a bull in a china shop. They're not going to dominate every decision. They're actually going to be receptive to what I have to say.

• 51:28Adam Grant?

  And the, the research I've read on this in the workplace suggests that if your boss is easily threatened, it's better to frame your suggestion as a question. Here's an idea, what do you think of this? As opposed to, here's an idea, you should adopt this. And if you want to influence someone who has more power than you, instead of just telling them what you're going to do, it's more effective to seek their advice and say, hey, you know, I'm kind of torn, what direction would you recommend? And I think, I find that really compelling. And there's, I think, a bunch of evidence suggesting that unfortunately, we live in a world where these strategies are especially important for women.

• 52:09Adam Grant?

  Because women are more likely to threaten male audiences in particular. And using so-called weak language is actually a source of surprising strength, which we can go into more, but I have said enough things.

• 52:25Brené Brown?

  Well, what's at top of mind right now for me is fuck that.

• 52:30Adam Grant?

  Rightfully so. That's why I said unfortunately.

• 52:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that unfortunately doesn't cover it, but here, here is where,

• 52:43Brené Brown?

  here's where I get worried. Well, first of all, let me just say this. For the record, as my partner and collaborator in this podcast, I am not going to do that.

• 52:55Brené Brown?

  I, I, I am, I am, zero chance am I going to do that.

• 53:01Brené Brown?

  If it does not accurately reflect

• 53:06Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 53:06Brené Brown?

  my genuine sentiment.

• 53:08Adam Grant?

  Yes, endorse.

• 53:09Brené Brown?

  Otherwise, you know, this is like the gauntlet of talk. This is the gauntlet of bullshit masculinity is that if I'm direct,

• 53:21Brené Brown?

  I'm an aggressive bitch. And if I hedge and use disclaimers, then I'm wishy washy and lack executive presence. Like, so I'm gonna pick the one that makes me, enables me to sleep at night. And so, and

• 53:43Brené Brown?

  this, I'm like, I'm really having to stay in my skin. I'm working really hard to not lose my mind right now, but

• 53:50Brené Brown?

  it's not, it would not be unlike me. And I think you could, you could, you know, starting a business together with a partner like you and I have done, which a podcast is a business, is not easy. And we've had really hard talks, really hard rumbles. We've talked about having to do repair with each other.

• 54:07Brené Brown?

  It's not going to be unusual for me to genuinely say to you,

• 54:13Brené Brown?

  I'm not sure if this is the best idea that I've ever had, or the worst thing I've ever thought, and that I'm scared. I'm not even sure what's driving it, but here's what I'm wondering if we should consider doing. That, that, I'm going to say that to you because it genuinely reflects where I am.

• 54:30Brené Brown?

  But the days of me contorting myself into a hedgy, little disclaimered, "Well, I have an idea and I'm wondering if you think it's a good idea, because it would be so cute if you thought it was a good idea." Fuck that. I'm not doing that. And

• 54:47Adam Grant?

  I don't know.

• 54:48Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 54:48Adam Grant?

  I don't ever want to hear that from anyone, especially from women, but anybody.

• 54:52Brené Brown?

  But anybody, yeah. And so I think

• 54:58Brené Brown?

  it really does point to,

• 55:02Brené Brown?

  it really does point to,

• 55:06Brené Brown?

  it really almost makes me want to cry. I'm going to be really honest with you. It's like, I really having to fight back tears because it's just not me. It's, you know, black folks and brown folks and disabled folks and queer folks and people who, you know, "This is the best idea you're ever going to hear, dude, and I'm going to make you think it's yours so I don't get in trouble, so you're not threatened by, you know, my excellence and, you know, you're winning mediocrity." It, it's just, it's really hard. And so what I would say is, I think it's interesting to read the comments on our podcast because some people listen to it who are not into the leadership work that we do and not even into thinking about work. They're thinking about this for their, their lives.

• 55:46Brené Brown?

  I think I would say,

• 55:49Brené Brown?

  when I genuinely feel curious, I want to be in relationships with people where I'm not dinged for saying, "Look, I'm not sure, but here's what I'm thinking."

• 55:58Adam Grant?

  Yes.

• 56:00Brené Brown?

  And I want to be equally in relationships where I'm like, "Shit, I think I figured this out last night. This is what I think we should do." Then I want people to be like, "Go, go. I love this for you. Shine the lights. I love it." And so if you can't be both in your power and in your vulnerability,

• 56:24Brené Brown?

  In your personal life with people, it's a reevaluation marker for me. And at work, I just want you to know that that's not always true for all of us. I doubt, I mean, I think probably I take this so personally because I just think as a, you know, a newly mentored assistant professor, this was my whole life in committee.

• 56:42Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 56:43Brené Brown?

  You know?

• 56:44Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 56:45Brené Brown?

  I'm wondering, I mean, I'm not sure, but I'm thinking we should, you know, you know, this is the reality and this is why equity matters. This is why feminism matters. This is why representation matters. And this is the problem, I think, sometimes with research. It will tell us through a scientific model what's effective.

• 57:08Adam Grant?

  Yeah.

• 57:09Brené Brown?

  But not only shine a light on why we have to do shit like that to be effective.

• 57:15Adam Grant?

  Yeah. Beautifully said, with power and vulnerability. And I would say it tells us what's effective, but not always what's right.

• 57:25Brené Brown?

  Oh, God, yes.

• 57:27Adam Grant?

  It also tells us what's effective in a one-shot situation, but rarely addresses the question of are we then just reinforcing the stereotype? And failing to shatter it? And I think the more times you break the stereotype by saying, this is a really good idea, the better, right? Because you are modeling a different way of communicating and legitimating that.

• 57:50Brené Brown?

  That's right.

• 57:51Adam Grant?

  And, you know, as I, as I listen to your reactions on this, I think it strikes me that, that two things can be true simultaneously here. One is that we've just got to stop evaluating people on their styles of communication and start evaluating them on the quality of their ideas and the thought and care they put into presenting them.

• 58:15Brené Brown?

  I think that's right. I think that's exactly right.

• 58:18Adam Grant?

  Unfortunately, we're not there yet.

• 58:20Brené Brown?

  No.

• 58:20Adam Grant?

  We sadly live in a world where people still get judged on the group they belong to and the identity they hold. And given that, I'm still committed to figuring out, okay, what is effective for somebody who might be threatening to a majority group member? Or who might be in just a tough position? How do they communicate? And so I want to get your reaction to a specific example. This is Hannah Riley Bowles and Linda Babcock. It's one of their experiments on relational accounts. You know, the work on women negotiating salaries. So they tried to put together an example of something that you could say that I think

• 59:04Adam Grant?

  shows both strength and vulnerability. And I like it. I have a hunch that you have some ways to improve it. So here is the line that boosted salary recommendations for women did not matter for men in one of their experiments. The line, I should say, the line is part of a paragraph, but this is the line that stood out for me. The line goes like this. "I don't know how typical it is for people at my level to negotiate, but I'm hopeful you'll see my skill at negotiating as something important that I bring to the job."

• 59:37Brené Brown?

  I love it.

• 59:39Adam Grant?

  There's a disclaimer, right? I'm actually not sure if this is appropriate, but this is something I'm really good at. And guess what? I'm going to be negotiating on your behalf if you hire me or if you give me a raise. And this skill that you could otherwise perceive as hurting you because I'm asking you for more money, this is actually going to work to your benefit.

• 59:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I don't think I'm, did you say this or did I know this already? That men did not get dinged on that.

• 1:00:04Adam Grant?

  Correct.

• 1:00:04Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't know, because to me, what my read is, I don't really, I don't really care if this is normative or not. I'm going to negotiate this with you because I think it's a good skill that I have and I'd like for you to see it. And I'd like more money. And so, so.

• 1:00:29Adam Grant?

  Oh, I like, I like, I like how candidly you did that. You just put it out there.

• 1:00:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I mean, that's it. I think I'm worth more. And so, so I think that.

• 1:00:40Adam Grant?

  Well, pause on that for a second.

• 1:00:42Brené Brown?

  What it is.

• 1:00:42Adam Grant?

  Pause on that.

• 1:00:43Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:00:44Adam Grant?

  Just, I mean, we're talking about, about these micro-patrons of communication.

• 1:00:47Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:50Adam Grant?

  I think, I mean, the word that comes to mind is authenticity, but.

• 1:00:53Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 1:00:53Adam Grant?

  You said it, you said it so matter-of-fact. I think I'm worth it. That, there, there's something so influential about that, that it doesn't come through when somebody says, "I'm gonna make the case to you that I'm worth it. I'm worth it for the following seven reasons." Where it starts to feel over-explained and over-justified, and you're just saying, "I think I'm worth it." Which doesn't require me to, to put up my guard and argue with you. And it also, it, it just conveys so much confidence on your part. Like, you don't have any doubt. I'm worth it.

• 1:01:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I'm also.

• 1:01:30Adam Grant?

  That is such an effective way to communicate.

• 1:01:32Brené Brown?

  Yeah, for me, I, I also think, though, it's, it's really tough, too. Because I have, it's personality-aligned for me. Like, I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm not always funny, but I'm quick-witted. It might be bad, but I, you know, I, I have a personality that that suits. And so, I know what style is best for me. Would it work for everyone? I'm not sure. Have I heard it more recently in our hiring over the last two or three years? 100%. Do I love it in people? 100%. And so, I, because they will be representing me in situations where I will need to see that level of grounded confidence. So I think that, and the other thing is that,

• 1:02:18Brené Brown?

  in terms of the humanity upfront, the humanity, the humanity and the power, the vulnerability and the confidence, those things living together.

• 1:02:30Brené Brown?

  I think curiosity is the key there. I, I, we talked about this the other day where we were talking about, I was, I was joking about the fact that I didn't know whether someone's in a car service for me for a job. And I was like, should I tip this person? I, cause I came up, you know, in addition to being a union steward in my colorful past, I was a bartender and waiter for six years. And so I just said, you know what? I know this seems really weird, but how does tipping work with y'all? Because it's important to me to get it right. And so if you've been tipped, I want to know. But if you haven't been tipped, I want to know. And the driver literally turned around at the light and said, it's so thoughtful that you would ask me that. Most people are so anxious to talk about money and things like that, that they just wouldn't even ask.

• 1:03:14Brené Brown?

  So they would either, they just probably wouldn't do anything. I'm like, yeah, I just don't know how it works.

• 1:03:21Brené Brown?

  And he's like, well, this, this, this is how it works.

• 1:03:24Adam Grant?

  This is, this is almost like, oh, sorry, go ahead.

• 1:03:27Brené Brown?

  No, and what I learned was there is a minimal tip included,

• 1:03:33Brené Brown?

  but it's not a living wage kind of tip. And, but a, a regular, normal tip would be too much because there is a small percentage included. So he said, if you're, if you're driving with one of our drivers in this driving service, this is really helpful. I was like, man, thanks. That's so helpful.

• 1:03:50Adam Grant?

  Would have never occurred to me to go to the source and just ask. It's, it's almost like asking for directions as a, as a man driving.

• 1:03:59Adam Grant?

  No, no, I should, I should just know, or I should be able to figure it out. And what I would do instead, if I couldn't, is I ask somebody else who's taking the car service. But I don't go directly to the driver and I loved how you did that. We're, we're, we're probably at time here, so maybe moving toward wrap up.

• 1:04:14Brené Brown?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:15Adam Grant?

  So two, two high level, I don't know how high level these are actually. Two, two reactions, just stepping back a little bit. One is, I think my big worry around people just objecting across the board to disclaimers is I hear a lot of people just pounce on so-called weak language. And they say, you gotta edit all the disclaimers and hedges out of your comments in meetings, out of your speeches, out of the way that you talk to your partner. And I think that's a mistake. I don't think we should be judging language as strong or weak. I think what we should be conveying is that language should be clear and it should be caring, ideally.

• 1:04:57Adam Grant?

  And Alison Figueroa's book, Likeable Badass, is such a good encapsulation of how to do that effectively. And I think you actually modeled some of what she recommends in the book in the way that you asked for your raise. So that was, that was my first reaction. The other, the other thing that I'm just left thinking about is, I think we... Hmm. No. Maybe not.

• 1:05:26Brené Brown?

  Oh, I love this. I love your thinking in real time. It's like downloading, downloading learnings right now.

• 1:05:32Adam Grant?

  Buffering. It's buffering.

• 1:05:34Brené Brown?

  I love it.

• 1:05:35Adam Grant?

  The little, the little wheel is spinning and I changed my mind about where I was gonna land. But no, I'm just, I'm just going back to the, to the beginning where you talked about invisible armies and bullshit disclaimers. And I think striving to make our armies as visible as possible and making sure our disclaimers are not bullshit, but they're heartfelt, is something we can check before we use them. As opposed to having this...

• 1:06:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:01Adam Grant?

  You, you, you can't ever have an invisible army. You can't ever have a disclaimer. What I took, what I took out of this conversation is how nuanced that is and how there, there's a time and a place for, for each of those. And there are also ways in which they can be used manipulatively and counterproductively.

• 1:06:18Brené Brown?

  I think that's, I think that's a, I think that represents my takeaways. I, I really had some big takeaways from our conversation today. Personal takeaway for me that was hard is how easily I get hooked when people do not take responsibility for the language they use and the impact it has on other people. The second one is how frustrated I get when I have to do the lift of holding people accountable for not taking responsibility. There's a theme here. Three, I think a hedge disclaimer, representation of other people's opinions.

• 1:07:03Brené Brown?

  I'm not going to call them an invisible army because I have such a negative connotation around that, but just the representation of what you're seeing in other people. I think for me, the bottom line is care, thoughtfulness, and is it aligned with how you really feel? You can never make something effective that's manipulative and not aligned with really, I think, what you're sensing or feeling. I think that's very, very difficult because I think above all else, no matter what we're hearing, we are doing an authenticity check on people all the time.

• 1:07:43Brené Brown?

  And I just think the emotional baggage from a lot of the work that women have to do about really often making people feel good about their own mediocrity while making ourselves small is, kills us. And so, literally and spiritually and morally and every other way. So I think that's, that was a big learning. I loved the conversation. I, I appreciate it. And I don't always love it when you pump the brakes, but I did not find myself flying through the windshield on this one. I did, I, I, it was more of that thing that your mom and dad did when you were little and you were riding in the front seat where they just kind of put their arm out on the, on the brake pump. I, I do think, my own argument would say it's not an all or nothing.

• 1:08:28Brené Brown?

  It's about alignment and nuance and care. And I just want to say for people listening. Don't think that this came easy to me if I have the right words. I practice every hard conversation I'm going to have with someone with a coach. I, you know, I've been working on this in a lot of different ways. Therapy, coaching, practice, discipline for 20 years. And so the careful use of language is it's a practice.

• 1:08:55Adam Grant?

  I didn't even realize I, I didn't even realize I pumped on the brakes.

• 1:09:00Brené Brown?

  Yeah, because I mean, the name, yeah, because of the name of this, this, this subchapter in Strong Ground is Beware of Invisible Armies and Bullshit Disclaimers. Like it is, it's, it's pretty sweeping.

• 1:09:14Adam Grant?

  Well, I don't think it's sweeping at all. I think that, I think the invisible modifier, we clarified what

• 1:09:21Brené Brown?

  Yes, that's true.

• 1:09:21Adam Grant?

  acceptable versus unacceptable invisibility is, right? But you already had a modify in, modifier in there. And then bullshit disclaimers. I'm, I'm defending non bullshit disclaimers and you are too.

• 1:09:32Brené Brown?

  That's it. Let's go. That was fun. See you next time. The Curiosity Shop is produced by Brené Brown Education and Research Group and Granted Productions. You can subscribe to The Curiosity Shop on YouTube or follow in your favorite podcast app.

• 1:09:46Adam Grant?

  We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more award winning shows at podcast.voxmedia.com.

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