2026 Finals Lessons, Giannis’s Next Stop, Brunson’s Apex, and Mike Brown’s Magic Touch With Doc Rivers

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Doc Rivers to talk about the NBA Finals, Knicks coaching, Giannis trades, and much, much more! (0:00) Intro (2:37) Doc Rivers’s NBA Finals reaction, Brunson’s greatness, and Mike Brown’s coaching (01:07:44) Giannis’s next stop, worries for coaches in 2026, and best current referees Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Doc Rivers Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.comThe Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 1:06Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by PayPal. We are also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where you can find the new episode of the Rewatchables. We put up Sunday night, Hand That Rocks The Cradle, part of From Hell Month. The next one is going to be Domestic Disturbance with John Travolta and Vince Vaughn. This movie's really something. It's on Netflix right now if you want to go check it out. Don't forget all our basketball and soccer coverage. I'm loving the World Cup. The World Cup's been fantastic. You can check out the Beautiful Pod with Adam Friedland and Chris Ryan has been popping on there a bunch. We've had a whole bunch of fun guests. That's on Adam's feed, Ringer Gambling Show as well. A lot of good gambling tips. I'm going to have DeBundo on, I think, at the end of the week to talk even more soccer.

• 1:51Bill Simmons?

  Try to get some tips before we have this amazing USA game on Friday. Can't wait for that. All right. Doc Rivers, he came here for a game, or didn't come here, but we did a podcast together after game one. Have not talked to him since the finals. Just a lot of big historical stuff coming from that finals, a lot of strategy stuff. We had to talk Giannis, what we think's going to happen this summer with all the different teams. Favorite players, refs, all kinds of things from his last season with the Bucks. And he came over, which was great. So we're going to take a break, Pearl Jam, and then in the house, Doc Rivers, next. This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one, a no look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal.

• 2:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. And save offers before you check out, earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewardsterms. Credit card points subject to issuer's terms and conditions.

• 3:37Bill Simmons?

  All right, Doc Rivers is here in studio. We've never, this is great. Look at this.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  This is nice.

• 3:42Bill Simmons?

  This guy, posters, people you played with in the jam session.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I see Austin Carr up here, which I was telling my son, Austin Rivers was named after. He plays for my uncle, Jim Brewer.

• 3:52Bill Simmons?

  You, did you have a Nike poster or no?

• 3:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:55Bill Simmons?

  Converse.

• 3:55Speaker 02

  No, I had a Reebok.

• 3:56Bill Simmons?

  Reebok, that's what it was.

• 3:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:58Bill Simmons?

  I gotta get that. Maybe I gotta hunt that down.

• 4:00Speaker 02

  I have to get that again.

• 4:02Bill Simmons?

  We have so much to talk about, but let's do finals because you never talked about that. So what, big picture, levitating over everybody. What'd you think? Like, what was your big takeaway from that series?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  I wanted more was the first take, you know? It was interesting, Bill. I played for the Knicks and I played for the Spurs.

• 4:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  And so I caught myself going back and forth, you know? Yo, I was a Nick longer, so probably lean more that way.

• 4:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  You know, but I just wanted more basketball and it got to the point. My son Spencer said it because he was cheering for the Spurs because where he, when he grew up, he was living in San Antonio.

• 4:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  So he's cheering for the Spurs and he says, I don't want any more basketball. And I was like, what? He's like, I can't take them doing the same thing. Every game.

• 4:57Bill Simmons?

  Karaoke.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Getting out to a lead, losing the lead.

• 5:00Bill Simmons?

  Here comes Brunson.

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Here it comes down the stretch of the game.

• 5:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Uh, but let's take a snapshot of the whole series. There was a lot of interesting things that happened to me. Uh, obviously, uh, you know, the Wimby turnover, uh, the, the pass, right?

• 5:17Bill Simmons?

  Game two.

• 5:17Speaker 02

  Game two. Uh, but I thought where the game and the series changed was after game three. After, uh,

• 5:26Bill Simmons?

  San Antonio wins game three.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  And Mike Brown walked in to the media room and complained about fouls.

• 5:33Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  And I thought, uh, I didn't think it at the time. I thought it was a brilliant thing to do. I don't think that's why he was doing it, or maybe he was. But if you look from that point on, how it was called against him, Brunson, uh, like game, game five, he had 18 free throws.

• 5:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  Um, the comeback game, and I talked about this with you, where everybody missed, in my opinion, it wasn't even talked about, uh, was Castle. Got in foul trouble right before the second quarter. They had to take him out. That's when Brunson got cooking.

• 6:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:11Speaker 02

  Uh, he picks up his fourth, two or three minutes into the third quarter.

• 6:15Bill Simmons?

  It was two minutes in.

• 6:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, so now he's off the floor again, comes back in, picks up his fifth. So Brunson, that whole 29-point stretch, did it without having to deal with Castle.

• 6:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  And I thought that was huge, uh, for the Knicks and, and for Brunson. Um, and I,

• 6:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, then it felt like it affected Castle in game five.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  It did.

• 6:38Bill Simmons?

  He was bad in game five. It was like he lost his mojo.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and defensively, you know, all series against Oklahoma, against everybody, you've been able to be physical and been up, and now he was thinking about it. You could see he was worried about it. You look at those last two drives by Brunson, that they, he hadn't done that all series.

• 6:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  They wasn't gonna let him do it. They wasn't gonna let him just go down the lane because they're more physical on him. Uh, but they were concerned about fouls. Where I thought, you know, you always go, well, well, what could Mitch had done? And listen, if I was coaching the Spurs, I wouldn't have thought of this either at the time because it wouldn't have been on my mind. We just won a game. Uh, but. If you watch the series, who was fouled the most Brunson or Wimby?

• 7:22Bill Simmons?

  Wimby.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, probably Wimby at least even, right? But no one said anything about it, you know, and the difference was Wimby was fouled more off the ball. Every time he cut, every time he moved, I mean, there were, there were four of them, they were hitting them. Even the alleged uh uh flagrant foul that Wimby really was just pushing down on Brunson.

• 7:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  He was pushing down on him because Brunson was grabbing his jersey and he turned around and was like, get off of me, you know, so it looked battered and worse than what it really was.

• 7:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  All right, so uh but I really thought that's where that series changed. And then San Antonio's inability, uh we talked about this in game one, I think. Um if it came down to a one minute game, the Knicks are gonna win.

• 8:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, even in game five, but when it got to eighty-three, eighty-three, it's like.

• 8:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:14Bill Simmons?

  This is done.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  And nothing San Antonio really could have done about it because the Knicks know exactly who they are.

• 8:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  The last five minutes of a game, they know exactly what they're running. Uh they know exactly where, who they're running it through with Brunson. Uh they may change the guy who sets a pick. They usually uh put towels in the parking lot uh because now you've just taken the center guarding him outside the paint.

• 8:42Bill Simmons?

  I like that phrase.

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, and and so now you're left, if you go, you're leaving a great three-point shooter.

• 8:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  So I thought every game in those five games, the last four or five minutes, it was this veteran uh team that also had a closer.

• 8:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  Uh you remember Hubie Brown, I remember when I was first started coaching and I was one of the things he told me, he's like, if you don't have a closer, Doc, I don't care how good your team is. He said, it's just like a company.

• 9:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:11Speaker 02

  Uh if you don't have a closer in your company that that can, that can close the deal, you are going to lose the deal. And that's what it felt like now.

• 9:19Bill Simmons?

  Well, ironically, the closer for San Antonio was Harper.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:23Bill Simmons?

  And they didn't.

• 9:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but.

• 9:24Bill Simmons?

  They didn't want to admit he had, and he probably wasn't 100% ready.

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wasn't ready for, even though they use him more in game five.

• 9:30Bill Simmons?

  He had a couple of big plays down the stretch.

• 9:32Speaker 02

  Got downhill. Yeah, missed the layup though. Uh, but Fox has been a great closer.

• 9:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Fox has been in the top five of closers over the last four or five years.

• 9:42Bill Simmons?

  But he lost his confidence though.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  I don't know if he lost his, he definitely lost something. I, I thought he lost his health at first and then confidence second. You know?

• 9:51Bill Simmons?

  There wasn't the explosiveness getting in the basket in the same way.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  No.

• 9:54Bill Simmons?

  And then that him getting in the basket then allows him to do that little turnaround eight foot shot that he's great at.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  Well, you also.

• 10:01Bill Simmons?

  All plays off each other.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  You didn't hear one time, uh, Mike Breen or Legs or any of them say Fox is the fastest guy in the NBA. That's something you hear.

• 10:11Bill Simmons?

  You're right. That's where he was two years ago.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, you don't, you didn't hear it one time. And you know, maybe the, the sprained ankle had some impact on him. It definitely had on the shooting. Uh, I thought what Mitch ran was terrific. They got that shot. Uh, even in the game five, he came off that little, we, we call it shake special.

• 10:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Play that I run. Uh, it's a secondary, second pick and roll. Wemby DHOs, the guard comes off. Fox got to his bread basket. I mean, right where he wanted, and it wasn't close.

• 10:41Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Like, and then he had the wide open three, so.

• 10:44Bill Simmons?

  I never thought his shots were going in. Well. When it mattered, which is a bad place to get to, right?

• 10:50Speaker 02

  It got to that point. Yeah, it really did get to that point.

• 10:53Bill Simmons?

  Whereas OG, every shot I thought was going in.

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, even the bad shots.

• 10:57Bill Simmons?

  It's still going in.

• 10:57Speaker 02

  Even the bad shots, OG, you thought were going in. Uh, it's amazing what a series can do. Um, you know, but like for Mitch, what, that puts a coach in a tough spot. You've had a, you had this closer. That has been reliable. He's been reliable for you.

• 11:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Uh, in game seven in Oklahoma, he made every shot.

• 11:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  So you don't go away from it. You know, you, you keep going to it and, and, and give Mitch credit. He did, but it just kept coming up snake eyes.

• 11:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:31Speaker 02

  I mean, over and over again. You know, and Wimby's gonna learn a lot. Uh, he'll learn a lot from this series. Someone was, was talking the difference between him and Jabbar. And I said, well, uh, Jabbar was still in college at that age.

• 11:45Bill Simmons?

  Right. Dave's a senior UCLA player.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  And Wimby's in the game seven of NBA finals. So let's give him a gray spirit.

• 11:52Bill Simmons?

  I do think it's a real issue that he can't seem to play more than 30 minutes.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Well, I think.

• 11:58Bill Simmons?

  He, he's, he's like staggering around in these games. He's gotta go 40 plus.

• 12:03Speaker 02

  But I, I think it's a league problem as much as a, a, a Wimby problem. I think what the league does more is we, we give these minutes all year without the thought of ramping guys up as the playoffs gets closer and closer. Um.

• 12:21Bill Simmons?

  You know, who didn't do that was Tibbs.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  No, Tibbs ramped up from the start.

• 12:25Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, it maybe I had a good email from a mailbag pod I did the other day about Tibbs kinda conditioned these guys to go these big minutes and carry these big loads.

• 12:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not, it wasn't something that they didn't expect.

• 12:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:39Speaker 02

  Didn't want. Let me say this, players want to play.

• 12:42Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Players don't actually want to sit. Players are told to sit and then they are now in this culture where they accept what the trainers are telling them. I came from the culture, we wasn't listening to the trainer. You know, we told the trainer, like if, if, if I came to a game and Joel too was my trainer with the Atlanta Hawks. If Joe say, hey, doc, I think you should sit. I would say, get out of here.

• 13:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  And that was it. That was the conversation. There was no more.

• 13:13Bill Simmons?

  But think about how much you were making in the Hawks compared to what these guys make now. These are like these

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, look at

• 13:19Bill Simmons?

  50 million dollar a year properties.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Look at me walk and move now.

• 13:24Bill Simmons?

  You should have listened to Joe.

• 13:25Speaker 02

  I should have listened to Joe more. That's a fact.

• 13:29Bill Simmons?

  I do think they are more careful because not only are they paying a ton of money for the best players, but if something goes wrong with one of the best players, you almost, you don't have an out. Like, look at you with Giannis this year.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you don't

• 13:40Bill Simmons?

  End of your season, single-handedly, that he didn't play.

• 13:42Speaker 02

  Well, that's because we didn't have a second guy.

• 13:44Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  You know.

• 13:45Bill Simmons?

  But most teams don't.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  Most teams do. You know, if Brunson went out, they still had Towns and other guys, you know. But you're not gonna win it.

• 13:55Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  You're not gonna win it. If your best guy is out of the playoffs, you may make a run. We made a run in 09, but you're not winning it. And where it always comes up when you have a guy out is that game one through five, if you can get there. This game six and seven, those are the games that are almost unwinnable for you.

• 14:13Bill Simmons?

  That happened to Oklahoma City.

• 14:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, because they didn't have that extra guy. It was obvious.

• 14:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:20Bill Simmons?

  The Wemby part of this, so you think like, he doesn't have the signature shot yet.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Not yet.

• 14:27Bill Simmons?

  He's now dealing with

• 14:28Speaker 02

  I love the shot he missed in game two.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  Which one?

• 14:32Speaker 02

  The one at the elbow. That was a pick and roll, pop, right to the elbow. That's his, that's his

• 14:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I wonder like, what are his spots gonna be?

• 14:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, the elbow will be one, for sure.

• 14:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like, top of the foul line, because it sounds, it seems like he has a lot of trouble getting to the block. Like, Kareem would, he would do that weird thing where he would kind of back in and take these little weird steps. And then all of a sudden, he was in his spot. Michael would do it too.

• 14:55Speaker 02

  Kareem got to his spot, and then the jump hook. I mean, there's a skyhook. No one's ever gonna have that shot. If Wemby can develop a skyhook, the game's over for everybody.

• 15:03Bill Simmons?

  How about, can we get a jump hook?

• 15:05Speaker 02

  You know what?

• 15:05Bill Simmons?

  I mean, everybody in the league has a jump hook.

• 15:07Speaker 02

  So I, I was on the phone with about four or five coaches.

• 15:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  Day before yesterday and we were just talking about the game, right? And what would each guy do with Wemby? And one of the guys said, you know, everybody's talking about the back to the basket. Uh, the only thing with back to the basket is, yeah, we'll throw it to you and they're going to trap you. And then you have to give it up.

• 15:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  And he said, no one is talking about Jack Sigma. And he's like, what if Wemby just face?

• 15:36Bill Simmons?

  Sigma?

• 15:36Speaker 02

  What if he face you? And if you don't, what can you do?

• 15:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was the old Tim Duncan, right?

• 15:43Speaker 02

  Just face you up.

• 15:43Bill Simmons?

  From the basket.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  And just shoot it like on the post, turn face. Shoot it if they come up on you, put it on the floor. You know, I think that's a move he will have to develop. Uh, I remember sitting with, uh, Pop and, uh, watching Wemby practice his rookie year. Cause I was doing TV. Uh, and, uh,

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  For those two months?

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, for those two months. And, uh, I actually said it and Pop's like, thank you. Thank, I said, why is he fading?

• 16:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, that was the Will Chamberlain problem.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, just go up and shoot.

• 16:19Bill Simmons?

  Right. Why are you going backwards?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, no one's going to block your shot and,

• 16:22Bill Simmons?

  Also, he's a great free throw shooter.

• 16:24Speaker 02

  Great. So that's the difference. He can really shoot the ball and it's a balance issue at times for them. You can see he's off balance a lot. You know, that may be strength. Uh, that may be balance.

• 16:35Bill Simmons?

  And fatigue.

• 16:36Speaker 02

  And fatigue. Yeah.

• 16:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. K. So KG had, uh, he had the little turnaround.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:41Bill Simmons?

  Near the baseline, but then I always liked when he faced up.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 16:45Bill Simmons?

  And he would do like the stutter step and then stop and do the little jump.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  Counters to everything.

• 16:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Wemby, Wemby needs that face up.

• 16:51Speaker 02

  Great guy for, uh, uh, Wemby, uh, to work with. They have the same type of intensity.

• 16:57Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 16:58Speaker 02

  Uh,

• 16:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's like a much taller Wemby.

• 17:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. KG's workouts were amazing. I mean, he used to put these shoes on the floor, which as a coach I had never seen. You know, we use cones. He would actually put two shoes and make them face like the player. Cause he said, I want to attack the feet. So he would just, he would stand there and he moved the shoes over and attacked that. Then he put the two shoes over and attacked that. It was genius.

• 17:20Bill Simmons?

  So he would always look at, The feet over anything else.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, he wanted to attack the feet and he's.

• 17:25Bill Simmons?

  Interesting.

• 17:26Speaker 02

  He would teach guys if he saw one foot just turned, say he's dead. He's dead. He knew exactly what he was gonna attack. So it was pretty impressive.

• 17:33Bill Simmons?

  I remember there was a Dave DeBusher thing where he always looked at the guy's eyes.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:38Bill Simmons?

  And he would, he said, everybody who is about to shoot looks at the rim, no matter what they're doing. Eventually they're gonna look at the rim.

• 17:44Speaker 02

  Well, they have to.

• 17:45Bill Simmons?

  And that's when I know. And he was like, the only guy who never did it was Earl Monroe. All of a sudden he was shooting and it was like, you were looking over there. How did you even?

• 17:54Speaker 02

  That's pretty impressive.

• 17:55Bill Simmons?

  But he said that was the only one. But he was like, I always followed the eyes. That's why he was so good defensively. So KG's looking at the feet.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  He's just look, he's got the ball, looking at, he squares up and he looks at your feet.

• 18:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, even if Wemby had the Tim Duncan face up KG kinda stutter step, stop, and he's shooting over you. And then just like a seven foot jump hook.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, but.

• 18:14Bill Simmons?

  That's two more shots than he has now.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, but just the face up to me is because you can't double team him. He sees you coming. He will pick you apart, you know, and I think that's one thing they'll do in the end. And then more work at the elbows, uh, because I thought he was very efficient there most of the season. And it just seemed like they got away from it. But I thought the physicality and the, and the fatigue played a major factor.

• 18:36Bill Simmons?

  Well, they were doing a bunch of stuff with him too, like, uh, on box outs that were like ramming him in the back.

• 18:41Speaker 02

  They hit him every chance they got. You have to. The other thing they did that Oklahoma didn't do, they attacked Wemby.

• 18:49Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, all through the playoffs, no one attacked Wemby. They played away from Wemby. The Knicks, like, we're going right at you.

• 18:56Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  We're gonna attack you. Uh, we're gonna make you foul us. We're gonna make you move your feet. I, I thought that was a great game play.

• 19:03Bill Simmons?

  And it felt like Brunson kind of figured him out as the series went along a little bit, cause he really torched him.

• 19:09Speaker 02

  It's crazy though, when you look at Brunson versus Wemby. And Brunson is

• 19:14Bill Simmons?

  It's like an 18 inch difference.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Brunson is figuring anything out.

• 19:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  You know, it's unbelievable. Brunson, I tell you, man, uh, every time you watch him, you, you get more and more impressed with him. Uh, I think you still watch him, waiting for him not to be able to do what he does. You know, I think the whole league for two years or, well, he can't keep doing this. He can't. And he can, it's who he is.

• 19:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you almost feel like he's like a heat check guy.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, all game.

• 19:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 19:41Speaker 02

  And just the last game, you know, the 45, I mean, come on, he scored half the team's points. Like, he willed a game for the New York Knicks to win a world championship.

• 19:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So I did a pod on Monday and I was, you know, my book of basketball where I ranked everybody. And the big thing for the rankings was, were you the best guy in a title team? Did you, were you the alpha? Did you take a, take a team to the promised land, which I just think is a different level of basketball?

• 20:07Speaker 02

  It is.

• 20:08Bill Simmons?

  So I had, I put Brunson, I put him a bunch, I changed my list. And I put him 41 and I put him ahead of guys like Nash and Kidd and Luca. And I'm like, this is the whole point of basketball is to be the best guy in a title team. And to do this stuff that he did in game one of the Cleveland series, throughout the finals, especially game five, which I think is in the running for one of the best finals games played this century.

• 20:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:32Bill Simmons?

  Um,

• 20:34Bill Simmons?

  so I, you know, he's never been a first team NBA guy, but I feel like he has to be treated that way now.

• 20:39Speaker 02

  He will be, you know, uh, it's almost like the voters didn't believe either, you know?

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  I didn't vote for him. I voted for him second team.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  They don't believe, even though his team's record is great, he keeps doing the same thing.

• 20:50Bill Simmons?

  How about 29 points a game in four playoffs now?

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:53Bill Simmons?

  This is a four year stretch where those are Shay's stats, those are Kobe's stats over everybody's stats.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Other than Michael, those are all the other great player stats.

• 21:00Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 21:01Speaker 02

  The other thing, I, I keep saying it, uh, and I'm going to say it and tell the cows, you know, whatever, to come in or whatever they're supposed to do.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  We don't evaluate what a great player is right, in my opinion.

• 21:16Bill Simmons?

  I was so excited to talk to you about this.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  Because winning and leading is part of that. And if you can't do that, then really all you're doing is playing your game.

• 21:30Bill Simmons?

  And you're putting up stats.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Yes, you know, I, you know, I gotta play my game. Well, winners play their game. And they give room for everybody else on their team to play their game. And they encourage, they, they do all the things that are required.

• 21:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Uh, more than just score 30 points, you know, they lead, they push. You know, Michael pushed, he pushed his teammates, but he also trusted, you know, two of the games, two of the series they won came off on Michael Jordan pass, you know, he was willing to make the right play.

• 22:07Bill Simmons?

  He was 11 assists a game in the 91 finals.

• 22:10Speaker 02

  Exactly. So he was willing to make the right play at the right time. And Brunson led their team to an NBA title. He didn't just play his team to an NBA title.

• 22:21Bill Simmons?

  Well, and that's part of the problem. And I was really interested to see how people would react when I was like, this is where Brunson is now.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:28Bill Simmons?

  This is my system. I did this when Dwyane Wade won in 06, when Walton won in 77. Like, if you do this once, that's more important than what you did for 15 years. If you, if, you know, you made some conference finals and that's it. This is the whole point of playing basketball.

• 22:42Speaker 02

  Because basketball's not boxing. It's a team game.

• 22:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  And you have to win to be considered a great player.

• 22:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about, think about what Paul Pierce would 08 meant to him. Like beating LeBron straight up and all that stuff.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  There are some guys that never had talent around them. It's a small pool.

• 23:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, I always use Barkley as the example.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:04Bill Simmons?

  I, to me, I don't hold no title against Barkley because I feel like in 93. He was, he went against the best player of all time at the peak of his powers.

• 23:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he never had talent around him until he got to Phoenix.

• 23:15Bill Simmons?

  Right, and Kevin Johnson let him down the first half of that finals.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  Then he had a chance, but they, no offense, they were playing the Bulls. They weren't winning that series in any way or form. They were just not. You know, the Bulls were the better team. I thought the Knicks were the better team that year, really. If you want me to be honest, uh, but I was on the Knicks and, uh, yeah. I, that, that still bothers me, you know, that, that loss to the Bulls. We're up 2-0. And then, um.

• 23:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, Jordan put the double nickel on you in game three, right? Or game four?

• 23:47Speaker 02

  Well, no, game three, the, the media. And I, uh, and I felt it.

• 23:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if we've talked about this.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, game three.

• 23:54Bill Simmons?

  What happened with the media?

• 23:55Speaker 02

  It was, I want to say a three or four day break.

• 23:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 02

  Between game two and three, which allowed them to kind of capture themselves a little bit. But more importantly, the media beat up Jordan every day because they saw that he was at a casino.

• 24:08Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  And for four days, or three days, or whatever it was, Michael Jordan is sitting at home hearing that he let his team down, uh, and all.

• 24:18Bill Simmons?

  Does he care anymore? What's wrong with this guy?

• 24:20Speaker 02

  He's out gambling.

• 24:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, and yeah, Jordan happened from that point on.

• 24:28Bill Simmons?

  I think one of the toughest things with evaluating, so I look at that Knicks team and it basically comes down to that, the Charles Smith sequence, right? And you could blame, okay, Charles Smith should have scored. Maybe you should have had a slightly better player than Charles Smith, like et cetera, et cetera. Or you go the other way and go, this is why the Bulls are so great. They protected the rim and they had no center out there and those guys were so great in the moment. That's what made that team special.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  That's the difference. Like, it's not that Charles Smith missed the three layups. Um, I, uh, lost BJ Armstrong late in the game and he got a three. You know, it's a play we worked on all the time that you had to, uh, you know, block out, but not get sealed. And I, and I had to block out, I think it was Horace Grant. And as I was blocking him out, I got too low and now he seals me in that I couldn't get back on the ball swing and BJ makes a three. Um, I think we missed two.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Technical foul free throws in that game. I always took, I was the best free throw shooter on the team. I think I played, I'm gonna go look now that I'm thinking about it. I think I played 38 minutes or 37 minutes. Both texts were in the time and I was out of the game. And so whoever shot him missed him.

• 25:43Bill Simmons?

  So it was all like, it was like 10 little tiny things.

• 25:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's always.

• 25:47Bill Simmons?

  And Michael Jordan.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  But at the end of the day, uh, who was our second best player?

• 25:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  I'm not sure. Starks was by the way he played, but he wasn't really the second best player every night. Where, you know, they had Pippen, uh, you know, it was clear with their second best.

• 26:04Bill Simmons?

  So they. Pippen was one of the seven best guys in the league.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. So when you make that case, it's hard to say that you would have won, but I think we would have. We had a chance.

• 26:12Bill Simmons?

  I mean, San Antonio was a little like that too, right? We're like, who was their second best player?

• 26:16Speaker 02

  Well, it was Fox all year.

• 26:18Bill Simmons?

  But it might've been Harper by the time we got to the finals.

• 26:20Speaker 02

  By game seven, but by game.

• 26:23Bill Simmons?

  Game five, yeah.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Game three, it was Fox. Uh, something with Fox, uh, I mean, it was Harper, something with Harper that he would make a mistake and come out and go back in. So, you know, there's a disso attitude. You don't know a player until you coach a player. There's something that he was doing that made him come out at times and I couldn't figure it out.

• 26:45Bill Simmons?

  Interesting.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:46Bill Simmons?

  So he's a 20 year old point guard.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's part of it.

• 26:49Bill Simmons?

  You were a point guard.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um. And he's like me too, because, uh, a hundred times better than me.

• 26:56Bill Simmons?

  He were really good.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  I wasn't a point guard in college.

• 27:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  I just led the team in assists.

• 27:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  And then when I got drafted, I remember my first conversation with Mike Vitale, I said, you're gonna be the point guard of the Atlanta Hawks. And I'm like, okay.

• 27:10Bill Simmons?

  You figured it out. It's like Dennis Johnson.

• 27:12Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 27:13Bill Simmons?

  But if we didn't have, in the eighties, we didn't have some traditional point guards, like the way people think of them.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Well.

• 27:19Bill Simmons?

  It was like guys would bring up the ball and run the offense.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Isaiah was a traditional.

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, then you would have the Isaiah John Lucas, like Tony Archibald types.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Magic wasn't traditional.

• 27:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  But he was a pure, he was a pure point guard.

• 27:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  You know? So, yeah, I, I think Harper is that and probably didn't execute things properly all the time, you know? Uh, but he'll learn all that. I mean, he is special. He's a special basketball player and he will be their second best player.

• 27:45Bill Simmons?

  Like I was trying to think of him in the context of. When like Kidd came into the league or Chris Paul, people like that where you knew right away. I feel like that with him.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, Harper, yeah, but they're completely different. I mean Harper's a scorer. He's a scoring point. It reminded me more of Rod Strickland with his finishing. I mean, he, he can, Harper finishes and angles, you know, I think it was game five, the one where he was under the basket.

• 28:12Bill Simmons?

  The reverse, yeah.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Come on. I couldn't have made that in the gym by myself. I could have tried that shot 10 times and I'm missing it all 10 times. He's doing it in the NBA finals with ease. You know, it's amazing.

• 28:25Bill Simmons?

  And now it's time for Across the Eras, brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. So we just had the finals and as always, I thought a lot about history and the eras intersecting and some of the greatest matchups we've seen throughout history. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics Collection celebrates these legendary teams and eras and moments. So perfect time to put the finals matchup side by side with a classic from the past. Gotta talk about Reggie Miller here. Like when you think about New Era, players that bridge 80s, 90s, 2000s. Reggie Miller drafted in the 80s. Really starts to hit it in the 90s. First there, I think it was 91.

• 29:08Bill Simmons?

  He's in the, Larry Bird's last great moment, the 91 Boston Indiana final, first round. And then we go through, now he has the Knicks battles in 94 and 95. And then you go to 99, they get the heartbroken by OJ's four-point play. 2000, they make the finals and it really feels like Reggie's gonna finally get there and win it. And then sadly for him, Kobe ascends. And then, not to mention in 98, they came the closest out of anyone to beating Jordan's Bulls. So he intersects with Bird, Jordan, Kobe and Shaq. And then you go into the 2000s and he has one last run, like they almost beat the Nets.

• 29:53Bill Simmons?

  He's not involved in the Artes Malia, but he's on that team. He just saw a lot of things, man, and the best, the sport's totally different by the time, by the time he's, he's leaving there in the mid 2000s. Cause this three-point shot that he was special at. Now it's about to come back in a big way because Steph Curry is about to join the NBA and the league and the geometry league is about to change. So Reggie Miller is a good one. Eighties all the way through the mid 2000s and boom, sports changing. Relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the NBA, I'm sorry, with the new era NBA hardwood classics collection. Available in a wide range of silhouettes, including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables

• 30:36Bill Simmons?

  like the 940 of frame and 970 and some great hardwood classics apparel as well. Visit newera cap.com to shop now. Use one time code RINGER for 20% off your first order.

• 30:51Speaker 03

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• 31:35Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun with Expedia? Save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully, your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. So you talk about like, The little differences between teams like so I went to the Bird Dominique game, which you were great in. You got you got a standing O when you fouled out.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was cool.

• 32:15Bill Simmons?

  That was nice. The crowd appreciated you.

• 32:17Speaker 02

  That was the breaking point for me with Boston.

• 32:20Bill Simmons?

  That was it. You were like, I like these people.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, I hated Boston.

• 32:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Uh, when I was a player.

• 32:25Bill Simmons?

  We appreciated it.

• 32:25Speaker 02

  And that changed my entire mindset of Boston. I love these people. These people are pretty cool.

• 32:31Bill Simmons?

  Well, so Dominique, at one point, he's number two in MVP.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:35Bill Simmons?

  He's one of the five or six best players in the league for five years. And that's like his moment to either ascend or not ascend, right? And Bird's like just a whiff better than him.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:47Bill Simmons?

  Partly because Dominique, I wouldn't say was the strongest defender, right? And you didn't have that. Maybe if you're doing it now with a different team, you're throwing different guys at Bird.

• 32:55Speaker 02

  We call it, he was an occasionally great defender.

• 32:59Bill Simmons?

  Sporadic.

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, I remember Fratello saying that occasionally Dominique is the greatest defender in the league.

• 33:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 33:05Speaker 02

  We just need that to be more.

• 33:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, but I think.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  But he has a score.

• 33:09Bill Simmons?

  But he's a, well, that's the thing. He's carrying a lot offensively and he comes so, and that's the closest he ever comes, right? And then you go back to the Lakers who end up taking Worthy over him.

• 33:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:20Bill Simmons?

  And Worthy ends up in all these games and he's big game James and he has the big game seven and 88. And Dominique's on this other team where he has a much bigger burden. And if you flip them.

• 33:30Speaker 02

  You don't know.

• 33:32Bill Simmons?

  You don't know, but I.

• 33:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, Tracy McGrady made that comment. Why, like that if I was on the Lakers, I would have, and I, and I said, no. You just don't know.

• 33:40Bill Simmons?

  Think about Dominique on the Showtime Lakers. That might've been like pretty spectacular.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  It would've been fun.

• 33:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:45Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 33:45Bill Simmons?

  But he also wouldn't have been able to guard Bird in the finals. Like, I don't know what you win in this.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  You know, uh, but it'd been interesting. I, I love doing that. Like if such and such was here, would he had won as much? Or one less or one more?

• 33:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  I, I think it's hard to say.

• 33:59Bill Simmons?

  Like Tom Chambers is another one.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 34:01Bill Simmons?

  Who was really good. It's like, if he had just been on the Lakers instead of Worthy, would we be talking about him reverentially as one of the best forwards in the game?

• 34:08Speaker 02

  It helps. I mean, Magic was again, the reason Magic, um, I struggled taking Magic out of the top five of all time.

• 34:18Bill Simmons?

  He's fifth for me.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, because of not what he did is his presence. He made, I mean, he resurrected Kareem Abdul Dubar's career.

• 34:31Bill Simmons?

  And his love for basketball.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, he gone from the Lakers were losing games, not playing well. I don't know if you remember their first game was against the Clippers.

• 34:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, and the hug game.

• 34:40Speaker 02

  And the hug game.

• 34:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, it, I think that changed Jabar's second half of his life basketball wise. And it was huge.

• 34:52Bill Simmons?

  I forget who said this on my podcast. I'm gonna say it was Nick Wright, but I'm not positive. It was recent. Certain players love playing basketball because they love playing basketball. And then certain players play because they absolutely love winning and want to win all the time. And Magic was one of the few who was both at the same time. Where he loved basketball, but he also really, really loved winning.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't, you know, it's funny with Magic. Um, going into my rookie year, they used to have that barnstorming tour in Michigan. And I was included in that.

• 35:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Uh, we would go and sell out like in Lansing and then after the game, and I'm not being honest. The gate, they would bring the gate in, the cash. And, uh, Charles Tucker would, you know.

• 35:34Bill Simmons?

  It's like the godfather.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  It'd be 10 for Magic.

• 35:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  Uh, five for Isaiah, one dollar for Doc.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  And it was, it was, it was unbelievable.

• 35:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  But I remember going to Magic's house. Yeah, we're sitting there and Magic was out. I want to say he's playing Mark Aguirre tennis in the backyard. And I'm just sitting at.

• 35:53Bill Simmons?

  Isaiah was playing Mark Aguirre in tennis?

• 35:55Speaker 02

  No, no, Magic was.

• 35:56Bill Simmons?

  Magic was?

• 35:57Speaker 02

  Was playing Mark, because Magic had a tennis court in the back of his house.

• 36:01Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 36:02Speaker 02

  And we're just, you know, we're not watching the game. We're sitting in the house, you know, drinking Kool-Aid or whatever. You're just hanging out. And all of a sudden, Magic busts the door open, throws a racket across the room and just walks and leaves. And I'm like, what the, what is going on here? And, uh, he lost.

• 36:21Bill Simmons?

  He lost to Mark Aguirre.

• 36:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, he lost a tennis match. And I want to say wherever we were supposed to go that night, he didn't want to go. I was like, whoa, this guy doesn't like lose it.

• 36:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, isn't that KG was like that, right? The practices.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. KG, you know what's great about KG? He loved the competition in practice, but he also loved when the other team was into it. You know, that first practice we had, we lost, uh, the starters lost and the whole bus ride. You know, we were in Rome.

• 36:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  The whole bus ride, Eddie Howes, Tony, they're giving it to him, just giving it to him. And Kev was like, all right, yeah, okay. That next day, it was, it was incredible. The energy that he brought to that practice. That was one of the days I told Tibbs, I was like, we're gonna be hard to beat.

• 37:11Bill Simmons?

  What, speaking of Tibbs, they just win the title the year after he gets fired.

• 37:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's tough.

• 37:17Bill Simmons?

  Do you take that as a positive or a negative if you're Tibbs? Because I got a great email a couple of days ago from a listener who's like, Tibbs conditioned these guys in a lot of different ways and like, he should get some credit for this, right?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Tibbs should get a lot of credit, uh, defensively, uh, you know, they didn't vary from that sense than, uh, the system. Uh, Brendan O'Connor was my assistant coach.

• 37:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Uh, in Boston and with the Clippers is who Mike Brown hired as his defensive coach this year. And that's, we're all from the, the, uh, Dick Harder system of defense. So he brought that to the Knicks. It was already kinda in. Brendan made a lot of changes, but, you know, it was pretty cool. Having said that, Bill, you're a human. All right. And if, if I was fired, uh, and then team won the world championship the following year, uh, I get, I would know deep down that I really helped that team.

• 38:16Bill Simmons?

  But it wouldn't feel that way as you're watching.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  And I think Tibbs was very happy for a lot of their guys.

• 38:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 02

  Uh, probably not all of them, but for, for a lot of their guys. But it also, it hurts you too. It's just human, man. Uh, we forget that, that we're all humans and that would hurt, that would hurt a little bit for sure.

• 38:34Bill Simmons?

  Where would you put Jalen Brunson against like Isaiah and some of the other, Chris Paul, some of the other tough little guys?

• 38:40Speaker 02

  We, we had that, uh, well, I think. You know, and that, nothing against Chris, I think you would just put him against all the guys who have won titles.

• 38:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  I think you would have to shorten that list.

• 38:52Bill Simmons?

  That becomes a much shorter list. That's basically Isaiah, Tony Parker.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  That's exactly right. Yeah, that's, that's, that's who you have to put him against, you know?

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Because he powered them. You say Gus Williams? Good call.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Gus Williams. I apologized to him on my Monday podcast because I forgot to mention him in the great small guards because he always gets left out.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Well.

• 39:13Bill Simmons?

  He was the best guy in the 79 Sonics.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  Where about Kuz?

• 39:16Bill Simmons?

  Kuz never won a title without Russell though.

• 39:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true. And Russell was the best player on the team. Yeah, good point.

• 39:23Bill Simmons?

  Because he was, he was close, close, close. Russell showed up. Lot easier when Russell was there.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  So I would start with that list.

• 39:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  First, and then you can go back to the other guards because Brunson was so much different. Like, all the small guards would have really struggled guard Brunson. That, that, I mean, all of them. Now, he would have struggled guarding him as well.

• 39:42Bill Simmons?

  Because one of the things, so I did my thing yesterday and I had him ahead of Luka all time. And I had a Laker fan who was like, that's insane.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  That's not insane.

• 39:52Bill Simmons?

  Luka's 33 and nine and I'm like, yeah, but the whole point of basketball is winning the title. Luka was in a similar situation in the 24 finals, right against Boston. They're down 2-0 in game three. And then he has that whole thing where he kind of, kind of implodes and fouls out and then tells him to challenge it and it's like.

• 40:12Speaker 02

  But that's part of it, Bill. Like, do you have the makeup to win?

• 40:15Bill Simmons?

  That's what I was telling him. I was like.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  Missing.

• 40:18Bill Simmons?

  If you, so you're telling him if you switch Luka and Brunson, the Knicks still win the title with Luka or are you discounting all the other stuff Brunson did for that team? The fact that he got better when it mattered all the time?

• 40:29Speaker 02

  I would say no, they wouldn't, at least from what I've seen so far. And I love Luka.

• 40:33Bill Simmons?

  Right. He's just not there yet.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  Not yet, you know, and, and you know, health, conditioning, can Luka sustain that type of intensity for that long? I don't know if he could have, couldn't, but I know Brunson could.

• 40:47Bill Simmons?

  And there's, and there's something about whatever Brunson did with that team, that the guys around him were the best versions of themselves, which I think is, should count as a trait for basketball players.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Well, it's what Bill Russell did. It's what Casey Jones told me that we were sitting around in my office one day and I asked, I said, so what was, what was Bill Russell's secret? He always left room. That's what he said. It's like, he knew for him to be great, he had to give everybody else enough room to be great as well. Uh, what, what you, you keep hearing it so often by players, you know, I gotta play my game. I, you know, they gotta let me play my game. Okay, we will, but that means he can't play his game. If you're gonna be dribbling the ball, or he can't play his game. And so, well, I'll let you play your game, but we're gonna lose.

• 41:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Or, or can you play your game and allow him to play his game and him to play his game and your team win? Cause if you can't do that, if you think the only way you can win is just with you with the ball in your hand, every possession.

• 41:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but a lot of people think that.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  But it hasn't happened. It's in the history of the game.

• 41:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  It's never happened. It has never happened in the history of basketball that a guy, every time down, just dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble. Uh, either shot it or passed it. No one's ever won that way. So, I mean, I love history.

• 42:12Bill Simmons?

  Right. And even when Brunson was playing that way.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:15Bill Simmons?

  It was more because he kinda had to for like nine straight minutes or they weren't gonna score.

• 42:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but they also moved the ball. They advanced the ball. Uh, they got it back to him.

• 42:25Bill Simmons?

  They had fast break points.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  But down the stretch, they went to that.

• 42:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 02

  Uh, other parts, they went away from that. They, what they did a great job of, they knew when it was too much Brunson. And what Mike did so well this year is he instilled the ball movement, you know, playing through towns, uh, even without towns, just moving the ball. Where in the past, they hadn't done that. It just stayed in Brunson's hand. It's almost like they had a, a little, uh, barometer. Uh-oh, it's too much. And they got away from it and then they would go back to it. So I thought that was the difference. The other thing with Mike Brown, uh, he used the hell out of his bench.

• 43:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:05Speaker 02

  Uh, he really did. I thought, uh, I thought Mike Brown coached an amazing series.

• 43:11Bill Simmons?

  Even his challenges relate out.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  That, well, the Knicks have the best challenge system in NBA.

• 43:16Bill Simmons?

  They, it swung games, their challenges.

• 43:19Speaker 02

  It's funny though, Bill. People think it's the coach, head coach. The head coach has very little to do.

• 43:24Bill Simmons?

  It's some dude that he trusts completely on the bench.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  And the Knicks, I think two or three years in a row have led the NBA in challenges. Uh, it's, it's a weapon.

• 43:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:33Speaker 02

  And they're good at it. They're quick. You know, I remember we played them last year and I was like, do they have a cricker computer? I mean, what the hell's going on? But the guy actually also understood, you have to understand the rules. You have to understand the rules to be a good challenger. Uh, was that a foul before the play? Uh, why use your timeout now? Uh, you know, is this the right time? Even if you're right, uh, they had one in game one or two where they were right. They knew it, but they didn't challenge because they already had one challenge that they won and they were like, no.

• 44:09Bill Simmons?

  This isn't the perfect time for us to use the second one.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  If we use the second one now, we're done. And they end up using it in the third or fourth quarter where it came back to really help them. So, yeah, they're really good at. But what else Mike did was that bench, man. What I liked.

• 44:23Bill Simmons?

  To do what he did without Towns, basically playing half the game and just figuring out how to patch together non-Towns minutes so that they could hang around. Impressive.

• 44:32Speaker 02

  He had the courage. He had more courage than I did as a coach, uh, in, in bigger games, like.

• 44:38Bill Simmons?

  What do you mean?

• 44:38Speaker 02

  Well, he, he was putting in guys that he hadn't played. You know.

• 44:42Bill Simmons?

  That was something you just wouldn't do?

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Uh, not, not unless the guy has proven it all year, you know? Um, but you know, he puts in different guys that, you know, he went away from Deuce. Deuce was great.

• 44:55Bill Simmons?

  Deuce in the finals couldn't make a shot.

• 44:57Speaker 02

  Couldn't make a shot. So then he goes to Sham.

• 44:59Bill Simmons?

  I love that one. Hook forty?

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:02Bill Simmons?

  Hook forty out of nowhere?

• 45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then he goes to Clarkson.

• 45:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, right.

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Uh, Clarkson hadn't played throughout the series.

• 45:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Uh, game four, the comeback, he stays with, uh, Alvarado. Stays with him.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  You know, uh, now I did that. You remember we won the one game where I didn't bring in Paul or none of the big three. It was the big baby Nate Robinson.

• 45:24Bill Simmons?

  Oh, in two thousand nine. Yeah.

• 45:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, and that group, uh, and we won a, I think it was a finals game, maybe, uh, with that group on the floor. But I had played them all year. So I did have more confidence in him. Uh, but he had gone away from Clarkson. All year, you know, it's, it's funny. He did put him in, in the, uh, the NBA cup game, if you remember.

• 45:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  He hadn't used him and Clarkson came in and played great. Uh, but even in that game, the, the cup game against the Spurs. Tyler Colly, he put him in and he played great. So I loved that Mike kept trusting everybody. Uh, I thought that was really impressive.

• 46:03Bill Simmons?

  It's funny. He got fired. Three times, four times?

• 46:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:08Bill Simmons?

  Including recently in Sacramento?

• 46:10Speaker 02

  It's got coaching.

• 46:10Bill Simmons?

  Right. And then meanwhile, all the other coaches like Mike Brown's a really good coach.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:15Bill Simmons?

  And then finally he's in the right spot. Now it's like, now he's getting standing ovations in restaurants.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Now he can't, he'll never have to pay for another meal.

• 46:23Bill Simmons?

  Did that happen to you after oh eight, when you're walking in a restaurant?

• 46:25Speaker 02

  In Boston, still does.

• 46:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause they had a clip. He walked into the Polo Lounge in New York. Everybody just started standing up and doing this.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Yeah. But right after, I remember I was walking in, uh, me and Sam Cassell, and it was a little uncomfortable, you know?

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 02

  Uh, you just, you know, walk in a restaurant and people stand up and try to pay you. You had no chance of paying. I did like that. I'm known for being a little tight. So I absolutely love that part. Yeah.

• 46:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Cause the Celtics were 22 years. This was 53.

• 46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:58Bill Simmons?

  But it had a little bit of the same stuff of like, you know, a lot of losing and a lot of like, I remember back when we were good and now we're not.

• 47:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. And you know, Boston's fans now have gone through so much winning, you know, when I, when I.

• 47:11Bill Simmons?

  Now we get upset when we're bouncing around.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  When I got to Boston, the Red Sox hadn't won in a thousand years.

• 47:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 47:17Speaker 02

  The Patriots hadn't won, the Bruins hadn't won, the Celtics hadn't won. Then all of a sudden we're all winning. And I just always think back to, man, there's a kid that's seven years old that thinks this is how it is.

• 47:29Bill Simmons?

  Right, that's Sully from the Celtics.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:31Bill Simmons?

  His sons, all they, they were born like right when, when Brady showed up.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  They were, they were born at the perfect time in Boston. They think winning is like they're entitled to win.

• 47:43Bill Simmons?

  It was 13 titles.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  However, many years that was. One thing on Brunson. So I was arguing with a Luca, Luca friend of mine and we started talking about Harden. It's like, you know, I know you don't like Harden. There's just no way Harden was worse than Brunson. Like you have, Harden has to be above Brunson. I'm like, all right, you make the case. So he makes the case. It's like he won the MVP, you know, his 36 points a game. We're, we're like arguing back and forth about it. And I was like, all right, I hear everything. Give me your best Harden here 2018. He's like 2018. I'm like, all right, take 2018 Harden and put him on this next team. Do you think they win the title? And he goes, well, but that's, and I was like, that's your answer.

• 48:24Speaker 02

  That's the answer.

• 48:25Bill Simmons?

  That's your answer. That's why Brunson has to be ahead of Harden.

• 48:28Speaker 02

  That is the absolute answer.

• 48:29Bill Simmons?

  You just already started stammering and making excuses.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's the answer that we should all go by.

• 48:35Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  You know, there's a lot of players, you know, James is a phenomenal player.

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  He's in my top 50.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  I still think the best part of his game, he doesn't like as much as I loved.

• 48:47Bill Simmons?

  The point guard put, yeah.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  I, I think, I think he has as good a vision as anybody that I've seen next to Rondo and Chris.

• 48:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  Um, and, but he could score too, and he liked to dribble. He liked to hold the ball. Uh, see, James doesn't give everybody else enough room to be great.

• 49:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  Um, he is the only one that can be great on this team, you know.

• 49:11Bill Simmons?

  He has to be the greatest.

• 49:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know, I don't even think it's a jealousy thing. I, I really don't. I, I just think it's the way he plays and that's how he plays. You know, as you said, he's a system, you know? But that system to me is, is not the, the way to win, you know? Um, I still go back, you look with James with us in Philly, the first half of the year.

• 49:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 02

  Uh, he gave himself up to the team. Uh, he was playing unbelievable basketball and I thought there was nobody better than us.

• 49:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:45Speaker 02

  And then it kind of changed. He wanted to go back. You could see it slowly, like he was uncomfortable in that role. Um, one of the things I did like about that soccer though, he practiced every day. Yeah. It's funny how people don't look at him like that. James Harden loves playing basketball.

• 50:02Bill Simmons?

  And he's durable.

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Uh, very. I, I told Ty Lou that I said, listen, you're going to need a guy that practices every day and he's going to play 88s. Like there's something good about that. The, the, the bad part is can you win with it?

• 50:17Bill Simmons?

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• 51:03Bill Simmons?

  The other thing I've been talking to people about is the 10 week playoff run. And being durable and actually getting better as those 10 weeks goes along versus going the other way. I think Wemby is a decent example of this, but he's 22.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  But I think every team does that and every player.

• 51:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, you want, what you want is that grind is so hard and you gotta keep climbing the rungs and some guys can't do it. And even LeBron in 2011, like by the time we got to the finals against Dallas, like he cratered.

• 51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:34Bill Simmons?

  He had to learn how it went.

• 51:35Speaker 02

  He had to learn how to win. He hadn't, he hadn't figured it out yet. Um, uh, I thought LeBron's growth, where he became one of the best all time was between 11 and 12.

• 51:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  And I thought.

• 51:48Bill Simmons?

  And sadly you were in the, you were part of the shrapnel in 2012.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  But I remember we played them in a game, maybe a preseason game and he was calling out the sets. And I remember turning to, I think it was Lawrence Frank.

• 52:02Bill Simmons?

  You were like, oh.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  This is different.

• 52:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Uh, he didn't, he didn't prepare before like that. He came out and played. But he was 21 over here. He's going. I was like, wow. Now that's different. And when you start doing that. Uh, the other thing I thought Miami, you know, uh, Kevin Garnett and them loved it. Uh, I showed a video before game one or two. It was before game one, we played, you know.

• 52:30Bill Simmons?

  2012?

• 52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were the, you know, the big favorites, you know, we were old. And I showed a video of Dwyane Wade, Chris Bosh and LeBron. Before the game, doing their.

• 52:43Bill Simmons?

  That handshake thing.

• 52:44Speaker 02

  After the game, they would do it. And, and I said, those three guys cannot not beat us 12 guys. And until they figure out that they're going to need those other nine guys.

• 52:57Bill Simmons?

  We got these guys.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  They can't beat us.

• 53:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you know what you weren't counting on? Being up about to go up 3-2 in game five and all your guys talking so much shit to LeBron that he finally said, all right, fuck this.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  That all our guys, Paul.

• 53:13Speaker 02

  Paul can't stop.

• 53:14Bill Simmons?

  Is that the all time bad trash talk story?

• 53:16Speaker 02

  Oh my God, well.

• 53:17Bill Simmons?

  He probably changed the course of LeBron's career.

• 53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, actually, I do think if we had won that series somehow, they were about to break them up. Because they had lost the year before. Chris Bosh was gone.

• 53:27Bill Simmons?

  They at least trade Chris.

• 53:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, somebody was gone.

• 53:29Bill Simmons?

  But I feel that way about the 2016 Cavs. If they lose to Golden State, Kevin Love is out of there the next day.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  It's amazing. It's amazing how a bounce or something.

• 53:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 53:39Speaker 02

  You know, I always use Jeff Van Gundy, who I think is an excellent coach. All right. But Jeff Van Gundy was about to get fired with the Knicks. And Allan Houston takes a shot.

• 53:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, in 99, yeah.

• 53:49Speaker 02

  And the ball bounce, bounce, bounce, bounce on the rim and goes that way. If the ball goes this way. Jeff and Gundy's fired. The Bucks, if Kevin Durant's foot was back this much, they were gonna fire Bud.

• 54:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, I think the 2014 Clippers is a good what-if team.

• 54:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:10Bill Simmons?

  Cause you have Sterling happening.

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 54:12Bill Simmons?

  Which is still one of the craziest.

• 54:14Speaker 02

  That was nuts.

• 54:14Bill Simmons?

  Things that teams ever had to deal with during the playoffs. And then just Chris Paul, the safest bet on the planet, just having a complete meltdown in the last minute of game four.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, game five, Oklahoma City. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I thought, I don't know if we would have won it or not. Cause when you look back, and that's where some of the players get mad at me when I say, when you look back on our team, we didn't get along the way we were supposed to, to win. And, and so if that's, if you didn't have great chemistry, it's hard to win. But that year, I thought we kinda had it.

• 54:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  Blake and Chris, kinda, whatever their stuff was, and that happened before I got there, they kinda moved it to the side. There were so many mistakes and, and Chris was literally

• 55:05Bill Simmons?

  Chris is the.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  Second smartest.

• 55:06Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  Player that I coached in my career. You know, I think Ronald was the smartest.

• 55:12Bill Simmons?

  Who also never made mistakes. He's like the best assist turnover ratio of anyone.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  Never turned the ball over, but, but we were supposed to foul out of the timeout. His guy got it. He didn't foul. He tried to trick the game. That was the one thing that me and him butt heads about all the time. You don't need to trick the game.

• 55:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, the.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. You remember he threw the ball and honestly, he did get fouled.

• 55:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  But they didn't call it.

• 55:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 55:34Speaker 02

  And, and so Oklahoma gets it and they come back and scores.

• 55:37Bill Simmons?

  That was like when Brunson got fouled with 10 seconds left and they didn't call it.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  They didn't call it.

• 55:42Bill Simmons?

  The ball went to Bridges.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  That was almost a disaster.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  That was, it was gonna be a disaster. So that's, you know, but man, that changed the fortune of the Clippers. That, that one game really, it did.

• 55:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you had that one. We've talked about this before on pods, but the the ones that you almost could have won and two bad things happen are the are way worse than winning.

• 56:04Speaker 02

  Well, I've had the uh.

• 56:06Bill Simmons?

  Winning is here in the losses or the seesaws.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, the winning is always, if you win it all, there's nothing that's ever gonna beat that, except for mentally, your losses hurt more.

• 56:16Bill Simmons?

  Right, you you think more about the losses than.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  Tibbs and I talk about two ten way more than two eight.

• 56:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're not being like, oh, remember that oh eight Detroit series? That was great.

• 56:25Speaker 02

  That's what coaches, I mean, I had the three one lead against Detroit where we were, we weren't supposed to be in that series. If you ever go back and look at our, the Magic team.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Uh, yeah.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  And then Tracy McGrady stands up, this series is over.

• 56:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  You know, I didn't know he said that, but that's, he said it in the media.

• 56:43Bill Simmons?

  Nobody should ever say that.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Never, never. And and think about this, Rick Carlisle got fired because of that series. Because Joe Dumars, I guess all year said, you gotta play this kid named Tayshaun Prince. And he didn't play him all year. And then game four, he put him in at the end of the game, and he was phenomenal. By game seven, he was their go to guy. I mean, it was crazy.

• 57:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  And I really believe that's what got Rick fired.

• 57:10Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 57:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:11Bill Simmons?

  Uh, we were talking on a previous podcast about these teams that got the secret, which like the oh four Pistons is a good example.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:19Bill Simmons?

  This Knicks team, the fourteen Spurs. Now, there's other, like, the oh eight Celtics were so talented, it's almost like the talent is gonna, but.

• 57:29Speaker 02

  It was more the play. Um, we played together.

• 57:32Bill Simmons?

  Right. So when do you know that it happens as a coach? Is there a moment during the season or playoffs? Because with the Knicks, they, it was the last sixteen games.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  But that's how it happens most of the time. Like, we were not ready to win when the playoffs started.

• 57:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  People think we were. We we went seven games against the Hawks.

• 57:49Bill Simmons?

  The first two teams.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the uh, the second series was Cleveland, who was probably the second best team in the East. Uh, another seven game series. Um, where we turned into a championship team was when we lost game two in Detroit, at home against Detroit.

• 58:07Bill Simmons?

  And then it flipped.

• 58:08Speaker 02

  That's when, when we went to Detroit and won, that was the moment that we went from here to here.

• 58:15Bill Simmons?

  And for the Knicks, it was game four Atlanta.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Right. And what I try to tell people each round, as much as these players think they know. And coaches, all of us. You're good in the first round, your team is different in the second round. You win that round, your team is different again in the third round. Because you keep growing, you keep trusting. Uh, guys start either becoming more inselphish. They start seeing themselves with a chance to win. Each round, your team gets better. Each round it does, and that's everything.

• 58:47Bill Simmons?

  What's your theory for why home court advantage seemingly does not matter anymore?

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Well, I don't have one. I really don't. I've thought about it. Uh, you know, the talent, the offense, uh.

• 58:59Bill Simmons?

  Three point shooting variance.

• 59:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think.

• 59:01Bill Simmons?

  Travel.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  I, I think the travel's easier.

• 59:05Bill Simmons?

  What about, what about DMs and Tinder and all? You don't have to go to clubs to meet girls anymore.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, that helps. That helps, you know.

• 59:13Bill Simmons?

  Does that help Dominique?

• 59:14Speaker 02

  As I think Pat Riley said, is, is, it's, it's not the act.

• 59:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  It's the chasing.

• 59:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  You know, so, yeah, I think all that. Uh, but I do think it's the three point shot that has changed.

• 59:26Bill Simmons?

  Cause the Knicks won two in Cleveland.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:29Bill Simmons?

  And then all three in San Antonio.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Well, look at last, uh, uh, last year, Indiana.

• 59:34Bill Simmons?

  Another one. They didn't care where they played.

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no, but shooting, three point shooting has changed though. There's no lead that's safe anymore.

• 59:42Bill Simmons?

  I have a Boston fan friend of mine says the biggest thing that's changed is they have all these rules that the fans can't be super mean to the other team anymore.

• 59:51Speaker 02

  Oh, no. They're, they're, they're still pretty mean.

• 59:54Bill Simmons?

  Cause they, you know, there, there's been teams where they would put people behind the visiting bench and they would just yell at the guys the whole game.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  Leon the barber in Detroit.

• 1:00:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that, that era is kind of over too.

• 1:00:04Speaker 02

  That era is gone.

• 1:00:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you don't feel like you're, oh my God, it's a little dangerous.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  It's funny as a player, I love the road. I love playing on the road.

• 1:00:11Bill Simmons?

  Well, those are always the best wins, right? When you shut the crowd up.

• 1:00:14Speaker 02

  Nothing better. It's, it's, it's the most powerful. Cause I wanted to beat the Lakers so bad in game five.

• 1:00:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  I wanted to win there so bad.

• 1:00:22Bill Simmons?

  I just talked about this game in a podcast.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:24Bill Simmons?

  Cause I was telling a story about how.

• 1:00:28Bill Simmons?

  That Knicks game five with Foster reminded me of game 508 with Foster, where Ray Allen had five fouls in the second half.

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  Quick, yeah.

• 1:00:36Bill Simmons?

  And so did Paul Pierce.

• 1:00:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:38Bill Simmons?

  And Ray Allen fouled out of the game. How many games did Ray Allen foul?

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Not many. Yeah, not many.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  But that was one of those where I was like, ah, I just wish we had gotten a good whistle.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  Play well either.

• 1:00:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we didn't get any whistles.

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  That was the first game, the only game.

• 1:00:51Bill Simmons?

  You can't get fined anymore, it was 20 years ago.

• 1:00:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's true.

• 1:00:53Bill Simmons?

  You didn't get any whistles.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  I thought that was, yeah, that's, well, we didn't get any whistles in the game seven. That, that's for a whole nother show, you know? They, they, they officiating changed.

• 1:01:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 02

  From the first half to the second half, you know, in that seventh game in 210.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  When they allowed Pau Gasol to just shove everybody around?

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, it went from, uh, they, they wasn't calling anything to, I think it was 17 to five.

• 1:01:14Bill Simmons?

  But that's a good example.

• 1:01:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  Of the little margins, right? So why, why did we ultimately, I'm gonna say we like I was playing.

• 1:01:21Speaker 02

  Well, it's a we.

• 1:01:22Bill Simmons?

  Why do, why did we lose that game? It was because Rasheed Wallace had to play 35 minutes.

• 1:01:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:01:27Bill Simmons?

  And because Perkins is out and that tilted it just enough.

• 1:01:31Speaker 02

  Enough.

• 1:01:32Bill Simmons?

  You didn't have, you were 10 minutes.

• 1:01:34Speaker 02

  And Kevin was more like Wimby then in the fact that.

• 1:01:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Wimby.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Kevin was exhausted.

• 1:01:38Bill Simmons?

  He had three rebounds in that game.

• 1:01:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, Kevin's, Kevin's, once he got back from injury, he never could practice and work the way he worked. And fatigue was a major factor with KG.

• 1:01:50Bill Simmons?

  And that's, that was, Gasol was feasting.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's where Gasol, we let him out of, we owned him. And we let him out of the bag.

• 1:01:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing with these, when you talk about the margins, cause a great one was 2016 game seven. Warriors, Cavs, Bogut's out. Barnes is unplayable.

• 1:02:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:10Bill Simmons?

  All of a sudden Festus Ezeli is out there with six minutes left.

• 1:02:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:13Bill Simmons?

  LeBron targets him, gets six points out of him.

• 1:02:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:16Bill Simmons?

  And that swings the game, right?

• 1:02:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:17Bill Simmons?

  And it's like, it's a little thing, but it's not.

• 1:02:20Speaker 02

  It's, yeah, it's a little thing, but it's a huge thing. And it's, I always find that interesting, like LeBron had figured out how to win now. You know, he won in Miami, he had gone through those, each rounds. And so now he knew how to win. He'd become a winner.

• 1:02:34Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting though, because I felt like he was, I mean, he's easily one of the four or five smartest players of this century, right? And then he's. Probably the best athlete of this century.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  But something had to like settle in with him. It was almost like a, like a cake.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  He had to like stay in the oven for a while.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  He had to settle. He had to figure out how to win. People.

• 1:02:54Bill Simmons?

  And the pressure, I think he was putting on himself.

• 1:02:57Speaker 02

  How do you know how to?

• 1:02:58Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  You know, if you haven't won, so it.

• 1:03:01Bill Simmons?

  You don't think he learned from Ricky Davis and Larry Hughes?

• 1:03:03Speaker 02

  Some people, it's natural. You know, Magic was a winner coming into pros. He won a national title, the biggest game in, I think the biggest college game in the history of college basketball.

• 1:03:14Bill Simmons?

  Has to be.

• 1:03:14Speaker 02

  And I think it still is.

• 1:03:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  You know, I know where I was at when Larry Bird and Magic played. I, I remember that game.

• 1:03:23Bill Simmons?

  Would you see that stat that Brunson was the 15th guy to win high school, college and NBA?

• 1:03:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't see that stat. No, that's a lot.

• 1:03:32Bill Simmons?

  You know who else is on there? Kareem Russell and Magic.

• 1:03:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was gonna say, that's a lot. Like Bill, that's people.

• 1:03:38Bill Simmons?

  That has to matter.

• 1:03:39Speaker 02

  It matters more than so many other things. This guy just keeps winning. He may not be done.

• 1:03:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, they, that team probably has two years left, but now they're gonna deal with the Pat Riley disease of more.

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Bill Simmons?

  I gave up stuff. Now I'm not as excited to give up stuff. I don't really like shooting eight shots a game anymore. I like to shoot 12.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  Michael called it the trophy tour. You're gonna have to deal with all the trophy tour guys. And I remember asking, what, what are you talking about? He said, oh no, these guys, they're carrying the trophy to their hometowns. They're having parades for them.

• 1:04:11Speaker 02

  They're gonna come back. They're gonna win more.

• 1:04:13Bill Simmons?

  They're like, ah, trophy tour. I like that.

• 1:04:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, he called it the trophy tour.

• 1:04:17Bill Simmons?

  Did you see the Jim Dolan speech?

• 1:04:19Speaker 02

  No, about.

• 1:04:21Bill Simmons?

  I gotta send it to you. No, he, this Brunson's podcast, they put the speech on their feed. He gave a 15 minute speech to the team before the playoffs.

• 1:04:33Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:04:34Bill Simmons?

  Sat in front of them. I couldn't believe it. It's like a great speech. It's like a sports movie speech.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  I have to see this.

• 1:04:40Bill Simmons?

  Gives them this whole speech about. I think this team is gonna win the title, but it's only gonna happen. If you guys dedicate this, you're gonna have to put the team above your son. It's like he, it was kinda great. He's like, you're gonna have to tell. At one point, he goes, I'm gonna give your wife or your significant other championship rings if we win this, because they're gonna have to sacrifice too. This has to be all you think about.

• 1:05:04Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:05:04Bill Simmons?

  This is gonna be the hardest thing in your life.

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  That's a Pat Riley speech.

• 1:05:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, then he goes, if we win, what this will mean in New York City, I can't even explain to you what's gonna happen to everybody in this room. You gotta watch it. I was like, I didn't know you had this in you.

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think, listen, he's, they've done everything right. Like Leon, man, we talked about this two podcasts ago about.

• 1:05:28Bill Simmons?

  Leon and Wes, yeah.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, but anybody, and I remember I said, anybody can get the star. I can make a trade. I can take over T tomorrow and find a way of getting the star. But can you put the right people around them? And god darn, every decision they made came up gold. It came up gold.

• 1:05:48Bill Simmons?

  Would you, I talked about this before, but would you, do you think the job of being a GM with relationships and knowing kids who turn into adults?

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:59Bill Simmons?

  That you recruit and stuff? That feels like more of an advantage than, like, West New Towns when he was 15.

• 1:06:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:06Bill Simmons?

  We're trying to get him, like, he's known that guy forever. So he's like, oh, his contract.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 1:06:10Bill Simmons?

  No, no, he's a good kid. We gotta get him in.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  If he.

• 1:06:13Bill Simmons?

  Should more owners be looking at people who were like agents?

• 1:06:16Speaker 02

  Or agents or even players who wanna be front office people.

• 1:06:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Speaker 02

  Um, you know.

• 1:06:26Bill Simmons?

  Like, could Chris Paul do this?

• 1:06:28Speaker 02

  I don't know if he has the relationships.

• 1:06:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:30Speaker 02

  You know, but one thing Chris does, you know, is he knows players. I guess Jamal Crawford knows everybody in the league, you know?

• 1:06:37Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:37Speaker 02

  He's voted teammate of the year every year.

• 1:06:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:41Speaker 02

  If you wanted one guy to get, and I'm joking. Uh, DeAndre Jordan knows singly, every single person in the league. It's funny, when he played on the Olympic team, Coach K calls me, he's like, hey, this guy's the Piper. I have never seen. A guy that everyone wants to be with and and you know.

• 1:07:02Bill Simmons?

  Have we ever talked about this? Cause when I had the, well, I still have the Clippers tickets.

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:07:06Bill Simmons?

  When he didn't play, he wasn't playing. He was like a scrub on the Clippers. But before and after the games, he knew everybody on the other teams and it was like handshake hugs. And I would say to my wife, like, I don't know what the deal is with this backup center. He knows everybody in the league.

• 1:07:21Speaker 02

  When I got him and you know, when I came and we had the big talk and for him, you know, the my moment, my favorites. Player, coach stories of all time. I gave him that long list of like, uh, deep, you know, he told me he wanted to score more.

• 1:07:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  Uh, and that's why he didn't play well the year before. He was pouting.

• 1:07:39Bill Simmons?

  Hmm.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  Uh, you know, it was my first year there. It was my first meeting with DJ. Literally my first meeting, we're at Nobu.

• 1:07:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:46Speaker 02

  And, uh, I was like, so Benny Del Nega told you that you were going to score more. He said, no, he told me to work on my offense. And then I did that and I didn't get the ball. I said, um, I'm going to have you work on your offense too, but I'm going to guarantee you one thing. And he says, what's that? I will never call a play for you. Never. And he's looking at me. This is our first meeting.

• 1:08:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Speaker 02

  I said, but if you get every rebound, you become, I'm going to make you the defensive captain. I gave him a list.

• 1:08:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:13Speaker 02

  Uh, all defense, uh, you know, all star team.

• 1:08:17Bill Simmons?

  Rebounding title.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Rebounding title, all these lists and then NBA champion. Uh, and it's an emotional one. Uh, he checked them all off. And then when he won the title with the Denver Nuggets.

• 1:08:30Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:08:31Speaker 02

  I'm Bill, 10 minutes after the game, I get a bean on my phone. It's a picture with him and the trophy. And he had the note and it said checked.

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:08:42Speaker 02

  How awesome is that? Yeah, that's, that was Deandre. That was pretty cool.

• 1:08:49Bill Simmons?

  We took J R. Gettens over.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, don't get me started with that one. I'm gonna give you the, uh, one thing I loved about Danny, and we would not, me and Danny loved, we, we had a great relationship. But my son, Jeremiah.

• 1:09:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  That played with some of these guys now.

• 1:09:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I think you told me this story.

• 1:09:09Speaker 02

  He knew during the draft. During that draft, JR Ginn, he's like, I'm telling you, I've played with him. And Danny loved him. Danny loved him.

• 1:09:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, Danny's had a pretty high batting average.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why. Listen, I knew with Danny to let him do it. Whatever. He's right most of the time.

• 1:09:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know what's funny now? They have the second pick and people like Peterson said he wasn't gonna work out for them.

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Bill Simmons?

  And, and it's, nobody's gonna know who Utah, anyone who's like, I know what Utah's gonna do is like, good luck.

• 1:09:39Speaker 02

  Well, Lawrence Frank.

• 1:09:40Bill Simmons?

  I don't think people who work for Utah knows what Danny's gonna run to.

• 1:09:43Speaker 02

  Was over, uh, game one or game two, I had Larry, uh, over and Lawrence Frank. And it's funny, Larry really enjoyed Lawrence Frank, cause Lawrence, you know, is an active.

• 1:09:54Bill Simmons?

  Right. Just ask some questions.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  And he's asking, he's just buzzing with questions. And we started talking about Danny and we were laughing like, no one knows what Danny is up to. No one. And it's the truth.

• 1:10:06Bill Simmons?

  I think they're gonna take Cam Boozer. Only because of 25 years of watching how Danny thinks about this stuff.

• 1:10:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:13Bill Simmons?

  I just think he's gonna be like, you know what? That guy's just really good.

• 1:10:17Speaker 02

  Danny knows.

• 1:10:17Bill Simmons?

  Taking that guy.

• 1:10:18Speaker 02

  I will say this about Danny, he knows already.

• 1:10:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Speaker 02

  I can guarantee you that.

• 1:10:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's like walking in a bar and seeing a girl. It's just.

• 1:10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, now he's trying to sell other franchises on someone else, you know, what he does, so.

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  Um, have you looked at the draft at all or no?

• 1:10:34Speaker 02

  Not much, not yet, no.

• 1:10:36Bill Simmons?

  You're like a retired guy now.

• 1:10:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  He's playing golf.

• 1:10:39Speaker 02

  Golf and.

• 1:10:40Bill Simmons?

  Trying to build your endurance up on the course.

• 1:10:42Speaker 02

  Terrible golf, but I enjoy it, you know?

• 1:10:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, we gotta talk about Yanis trades.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Bill Simmons?

  So, when you have a trade hanging over a team like that, and it's not just Yanis and the Bucks, it's other stuff, but, and then the way stuff's reported now and talked about, um, how do, how do you navigate that as a coach or you don't?

• 1:11:01Speaker 02

  You do. Uh, I probably, um, underestimated the damage that it was doing to our team.

• 1:11:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Um, because, you know, first of all.

• 1:11:12Speaker 02

  A lot of the reports, they were just not accurate.

• 1:11:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  And unfortunately, it doesn't matter if they're accurate or not. It's out.

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  Because the reports are poor and there's six hours of shelf life out of it.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  You know, as Al Michael says, some of these guys, they report on the news and then they they didn't do reports on the news that they created.

• 1:11:37Speaker 02

  And so it just.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  It's like a double dip. It's like you go back to the buffet table.

• 1:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, it takes a life of its own because I knew what Giannis was telling me.

• 1:11:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:47Speaker 02

  And so some of this stuff just wasn't right, wasn't true. And but that doesn't mean the agents weren't telling someone else something else. You know, it didn't matter, it did damage because

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  if you're a coach, I'm trying to get Bill Simmons to play his role. You're like, play my role, why am I going to play my role? My best player doesn't even want to be here.

• 1:12:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  You know, and that is the damage it does. Giannis really never said to the players that he wanted to leave. And he never probably said he wanted to stay, you know, and so.

• 1:12:20Bill Simmons?

  So it's just like, everything is uneasy.

• 1:12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he did tell him once, guys, I'm here, I'm here. He told me that, you know, several times. Coach, I'm going nowhere. Tell me long before the trade deadline, before all started break. Coach, I'm going nowhere. I don't want to go anywhere.

• 1:12:35Bill Simmons?

  So what am I trading for if I'm getting getting him? Because I don't know if you're aware, but.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  I've heard.

• 1:12:39Bill Simmons?

  The Boston Celtics are one of the possible teams.

• 1:12:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've heard, I've heard. Well, you're getting a rejuvenated, healthy Giannis.

• 1:12:49Bill Simmons?

  Is it a healthy or hopefully healthy?

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  No, he's healthy. And I also think this will be his first time in four years not having your basketball. You know, so Giannis and I had a conversation, I want to say a month before the season ended. And, you know, you remember the whole.

• 1:13:09Speaker 02

  Should you come back? And I was, I was honest, I said, yeah, in my opinion, all right, you shouldn't come back. You know, the season's over.

• 1:13:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:18Speaker 02

  You need to sit. Um, I said, but you should look at this as a great opportunity. Uh, you can start working out now. Uh, you can bring in your guy that you work with and you can start now for next year. There's no European basketball. You get a whole year to really work on your skill.

• 1:13:37Bill Simmons?

  It's like the Rocky III, the Tiger.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And he started doing it. He was doing it. He was, you know, before I left, he was already into his workouts, you know? So I think they're gonna get that. I think it'd be good for him probably, you know, just, uh, to get all this stuff out, off of him. He can focus on basketball and playing.

• 1:13:57Bill Simmons?

  But how does it make sense? And I've already said on the record, I kinda hope the Celtics don't trade for him. Because I think it's risky, because this will be his 14th year in the league. The history of big men as they get older.

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  No, he's not a typical big man.

• 1:14:14Bill Simmons?

  I know, but I'm just going by history. I don't think it's, it's not like getting KG in 2008.

• 1:14:19Speaker 02

  And also with any trade, you risk chemistry. Uh, you don't, even if you think your chemistry is not great now, uh, you risk making it way better. You also risk making it worse.

• 1:14:34Bill Simmons?

  We've seen this happen in the NBA over and over again.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Over and over again.

• 1:14:38Bill Simmons?

  But for him, like, I don't understand why he would want to go to Miami is the one I don't, I can't figure out. Unless they have other moves coming, then I don't know. Cause it's like, all right, it's him and Bam, but you just traded everybody else. So like, where are you going?

• 1:14:51Speaker 02

  And you would have traded your closer, because Tyler Hero's a closer.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:14:53Speaker 02

  You know, say what you want about him, but he's a straight up closer.

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  Why would I want to go laterally? I would just rather stay in Milwaukee at that point.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  Uh, that's where he's trusting their front office, that they have the ability to add more pieces. You know, uh, that's, those are the talks we're not in, you know?

• 1:15:10Bill Simmons?

  After the last two rounds of basketball we watched, like you, you need like seven, eight dudes.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  You need a lot of guys.

• 1:15:17Bill Simmons?

  It can't just be you and Bam Adebayo, and it can't be you and Jason Tatum.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, the Celtics still have a lot of players.

• 1:15:23Bill Simmons?

  No, I know, but I'm just.

• 1:15:25Speaker 02

  There's, there's a much safer thing for him. The only thing from the Celtics' point of view is you are shortening your, your window. You know, because Giannis is older and Brown is younger.

• 1:15:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, Giannis is older with more miles on him.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  But you also maybe after that window, give yourself a chance to have another window with Jason Tatum.

• 1:15:47Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So it depends on how the front offices look at it.

• 1:15:51Bill Simmons?

  What would you do if you were Boston?

• 1:15:53Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a tough one. You know, I don't ever say it because I don't know.

• 1:15:57Bill Simmons?

  Cause you traded for KG, you had a five year window with KG, right?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:01Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's like I have him, I have Pierce, we have Ray.

• 1:16:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:16:04Bill Simmons?

  This is four to five years.

• 1:16:06Speaker 02

  I remember we thought when we did it, we thought we had a three to four year window with age. And obviously KG got hurt. We didn't know that was gonna happen.

• 1:16:15Speaker 02

  That's why you can't take anything for granted. I said it the other day. You remember when Oklahoma City KG, KD, James Harden, Ibaka.

• 1:16:25Bill Simmons?

  I went nuts when this happened. They thought their window was limitless.

• 1:16:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, Mike Green. I remember Mike Green say, well, you know, they lost this series to Miami, but they're gonna be back here many times. They never made it back. Like assuming.

• 1:16:40Bill Simmons?

  Eighty-six Rockets.

• 1:16:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can never.

• 1:16:42Bill Simmons?

  Ninety-five Magic.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  There's no assumptions. There's no, this league, winning is brutally hard. You have to play well. You have to act right. You have to get along. You need luck. You need everything to win a title. And if you don't get everything, you're not going to win.

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  So you think you get Giannis, these next two years would be the years you, you have to cash in on?

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's gotta be, he's so motivated. You know, it's not like he's not always, but he just motivated. He wants to, he wants to win another title. Giannis wants to win. Like it's interesting, we were just talking about it. He doesn't talk a lot about his play.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  He talks about winning and Giannis wants to win.

• 1:17:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't know what the right team is for him.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  I don't either.

• 1:17:33Bill Simmons?

  To actually win a title.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  You have to have a closer with him.

• 1:17:39Bill Simmons?

  With Boston would have.

• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  That's what the Tatum, that's why the Tatum thing makes more sense because you, a two man game with Giannis and Tatum.

• 1:17:48Speaker 02

  Good luck.

• 1:17:49Bill Simmons?

  The only thing I, I said on the pod that I guess was a reporting, but I know I'm right, is that the Celtics made an offer. I don't know if Jalen Brown was in it.

• 1:17:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:57Bill Simmons?

  I assume he has to be in it.

• 1:17:59Speaker 02

  Yes, see, I don't know any of that.

• 1:18:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know, I don't either, but I, I don't know how you would make an offer without him in it.

• 1:18:05Speaker 02

  The problem with our league now is when I first started coaching, you could have all these conversations and the player would never know. Never know.

• 1:18:13Bill Simmons?

  Now the player always knows.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  They know it 10 minutes after the conversation.

• 1:18:16Bill Simmons?

  Is this what happened with KD in, in Brooklyn?

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Bill Simmons?

  With Jalen Brown?

• 1:18:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, once.

• 1:18:21Bill Simmons?

  When he heard about that and was pissed off.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Once the news happens.

• 1:18:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:23Speaker 02

  There's damage, uh, you know, it's, it's really tough for teams. You should have conversation.

• 1:18:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  You should always try, listen to everything. That doesn't mean you're doing it.

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  And, and my guess is it wasn't the Celtics calling, it was probably Milwaukee calling Boston.

• 1:18:39Bill Simmons?

  Or they're trying to figure out, they're talking basic vague parameters. And then Milwaukee goes, well, if we got Jalen Brown, could we spin him?

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:49Bill Simmons?

  Now you talk to another team and now, now it's.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  Everyone says it's gonna be three teams. Whenever this.

• 1:18:54Bill Simmons?

  It has to be.

• 1:18:54Speaker 02

  If it does happen, it'll be three teams. It's just, you know, with the collective bargaining.

• 1:18:58Bill Simmons?

  It could be the Clippers. Jalen could become an LA.

• 1:19:01Speaker 02

  I actually wouldn't be surprised at all if the Clippers were involved in this, uh, at all. Uh, with the financial ability of Steve Ballmer and that organization.

• 1:19:11Bill Simmons?

  And they have some cap space and they have the fifth pick.

• 1:19:14Speaker 02

  They also have 80 degrees and, and no humidity, uh, and they have an ocean. People like that.

• 1:19:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:19:23Speaker 02

  They, they, players like that. Um, you know, before it was all Lakers.

• 1:19:29Speaker 02

  You know, when

• 1:19:30Bill Simmons?

  It was a little like the Nets Knicks situation.

• 1:19:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, but now, you know, that's one of the things I would say if I have a lot of pride about things, which I never do because I don't ever think that in those terms, but that's one of them like.

• 1:19:44Bill Simmons?

  No, you should take pride in that.

• 1:19:45Speaker 02

  We wanted to, when I took that Clipper job, I remember said, I said in the press conference, we're going to make this a destination. We're going to make the Clippers a place that people want to come to.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Now, I didn't know at the time with Donald Sterling as the owner.

• 1:20:03Speaker 02

  That was a pie in the sky thought when you think about it, but even Donald paid, you know, for players. But then when Bomber came organizationally, like everything's first class, they do everything right.

• 1:20:16Speaker 02

  I mean, it's, they do it the right way.

• 1:20:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, when I got my tickets in oh four, I just got it for the other teams, which is why most of the people were there, right?

• 1:20:25Speaker 02

  Still do, unfortunately.

• 1:20:26Bill Simmons?

  And it was really kind of fun to go to the games. They were so dysfunctional year after year after year. And then, you know, it was little baby steps. They draft Blake. He finally gets there. The Chris Paul thing falls out of the sky and all of a sudden it starts to look like a real team.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  You know, bad. So when I was traded to the Clippers as a player.

• 1:20:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, in the nineties.

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  My wife, Chris Rivers, goes to the first game and she's in a stance crying. True story. She's sitting next to Gloria Schuler. That was Mike Schuler's wife.

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  And Gloria is consoling her like, what's wrong, baby? My son is, and she says, my husband is no longer in the NBA and he doesn't know it.

• 1:21:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  And she was like saying, no, baby, that's not true. That's not true.

• 1:21:17Bill Simmons?

  No, it is an NBA team.

• 1:21:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she kept saying, no, it's not. Now, way back then, if you remember at the Clip joint, that thing was a mess. It was a mess.

• 1:21:26Bill Simmons?

  I never went there because I had never been in LA until the two thousand. I heard it was, what was it, the Sports Arena or whatever?

• 1:21:32Speaker 02

  The Sports Arena was a mess. It was a mess. They had comedians doing shows after the game to keep people. I mean, you could literally check yourself in. There was no one there. It was crazy.

• 1:21:42Bill Simmons?

  It's one of the only good sports documentary ideas left that I don't think Bomber would ever let happen. Like the actual history of the Clippers. And what the?

• 1:21:50Speaker 02

  Well, if I'm bomber, I would because the ending is a glorious story and he's he was the white knight.

• 1:21:56Bill Simmons?

  I hope it's glorious. We don't know how the aspiration scandal is gonna go about.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  At worst is still.

• 1:22:00Bill Simmons?

  Who knows?

• 1:22:01Speaker 02

  At worst, he's still gonna be there.

• 1:22:04Bill Simmons?

  True.

• 1:22:04Speaker 02

  And he's still gonna keep doing things well. And so I wouldn't worry about it.

• 1:22:10Bill Simmons?

  So you, if you're the Clippers, you would rather have a star than the fifth pick?

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, I think.

• 1:22:19Bill Simmons?

  If you have Kawhi and Garland and you have a really good front office.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  I think right now, here's my belief and a lot of front offices don't believe this, half and half. If you legitimately can look yourself in the eye and say, if we do this move, we have a chance to win, you should go for it.

• 1:22:37Speaker 02

  I think so many franchises have waited. No, man, no, this is not to that. If if this is the time, you gotta, you gotta cash it in. But you gotta have a very honest, like, is it or isn't it? Because a lot of teams think they do it and that, what did they do? You know, and I don't, I remember last.

• 1:22:57Bill Simmons?

  That's how I do, oh, good.

• 1:22:58Speaker 02

  Last year Orlando traded for Bain and they said, now we have a chance. And I was like, what? No, you don't. You're better. It's a hell of a trade. It's a good trade, but you're not ready to win yet.

• 1:23:09Bill Simmons?

  That's how I always feel about these trades.

• 1:23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:11Bill Simmons?

  If if I'm, if I'm doing it, I better at least have a chance.

• 1:23:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you have to be honest enough to evaluate the league and what you have for sure.

• 1:23:23Bill Simmons?

  Like Celtics, Ray Allen trade, then the KG trade. You basically trade all your assets, but now I have, now I'm the best team in the East.

• 1:23:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:30Bill Simmons?

  Of course I'm gonna do that.

• 1:23:31Speaker 02

  We we knew immediately we had a shot. We knew.

• 1:23:34Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  We knew we had to be Detroit, Cleveland and the Lakers.

• 1:23:37Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  You know, in whatever order, we knew that had to happen. We knew the Lakers.

• 1:23:40Bill Simmons?

  Well, the Bridges trade, which I guess I'll take the loss on this one, but the. The thing I didn't like about it was like, this is it. This is your move. Like now you have no more moves.

• 1:23:50Speaker 02

  But he is also.

• 1:23:51Bill Simmons?

  But it turned out they had an extra move because the Towns trade.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:54Bill Simmons?

  Became the extra move. I thought after Bridges, I didn't think.

• 1:23:56Speaker 02

  Funny. Everyone made the big deal about the Bridges trade. Five picks is a lot.

• 1:24:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was anything they could have given up for Giannis.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  It still didn't constrict him. You know, they went out and got Towns. It didn't stop them.

• 1:24:06Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:24:07Speaker 02

  Um, and I don't know, uh, if there's a better role player for your basketball team, uh, than Bridges.

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:13Speaker 02

  He's willing to take four shots, 15 shots, six shots. Every game he shows up, he didn't know.

• 1:24:22Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, he plays basketball. He's out there. He doesn't miss games.

• 1:24:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, he plays every night and he's still one of their better defenders every single night.

• 1:24:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:29Speaker 02

  Um, he's a pretty important guy to have on your team.

• 1:24:33Bill Simmons?

  If you were Orlando, would you think about Palo for Giannis?

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  I don't know, man. That's.

• 1:24:39Bill Simmons?

  Does that, does that put you in the title convo?

• 1:24:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would do it if I'm Orlando, if I thought that put us over the hump or.

• 1:24:46Bill Simmons?

  I got Giannis, I have Franz, I have Bain, I have Suggs, I have Black.

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  You have enough shooting.

• 1:24:53Bill Simmons?

  Maybe in free agency, I can get somebody.

• 1:24:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you can get enough shooting, you know, I don't know what the other moves. Like I, I keep saying it. I can go get a Giannis, right? Uh, but does that put us over the top? And do we know how to make the rest of the moves to win? Teams do it over every year, Bill. Every year we see it. Teams go and get a star.

• 1:25:14Bill Simmons?

  How about Houston?

• 1:25:17Bill Simmons?

  I have VanVliet coming back. Um, I have to give up Shingun in the trade, I'm guessing. And maybe Jabari Smith too.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Bill Simmons?

  And I might have to take a contract back.

• 1:25:26Speaker 02

  Uh, no. I don't know if that works.

• 1:25:29Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it works either.

• 1:25:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Bill Simmons?

  I don't think I'm better than San Antonio or OKC either way.

• 1:25:33Speaker 02

  You know, and then.

• 1:25:34Bill Simmons?

  I mean, San Antonio is the interesting one, but I don't think they would do it.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  They probably wouldn't do it. Uh, Oklahoma could as well. Oklahoma has.

• 1:25:40Bill Simmons?

  Not their style.

• 1:25:41Speaker 02

  Oklahoma could do any trade they wanted to.

• 1:25:43Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  I mean, what they have, what Sam has done is absolutely amazing.

• 1:25:47Bill Simmons?

  They have 12 and 17 in this draft.

• 1:25:49Speaker 02

  Like they're mad at draft picks.

• 1:25:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  Like, oh my God, what are we going to do with all this stuff?

• 1:25:54Bill Simmons?

  He's the, he's in the first situation ever where he's like, I think I'd rather have the eighth pick than the 12th pick.

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:59Bill Simmons?

  I'm just going to go trade for it. Hey, Atlanta, here's seven picks for, to move up more spots.

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  No doubt that he's going to do a two for one.

• 1:26:06Bill Simmons?

  He has to.

• 1:26:06Speaker 02

  You know, he almost has to.

• 1:26:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's a center in this draft who I like, the Michigan kid, Mara.

• 1:26:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's solid, but I haven't watched him enough. Yeah, you've watched him more than me.

• 1:26:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's seven foot three.

• 1:26:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:18Bill Simmons?

  He's a good passer and I'm through the, through the Wemby prism now.

• 1:26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:23Bill Simmons?

  I need size. Where am I getting size?

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, Wemby is everybody in the West.

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  You have to think about it.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  You have to think about it, you know, um, you know, the, the, it's funny, the Knicks, they didn't just, where, where I was way wrong. There's no way I thought Towns would or could guard Wemby and he did an amazing job.

• 1:26:43Bill Simmons?

  And he didn't really have dumb fouls until

• 1:26:45Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:26:46Bill Simmons?

  Near the end of the finals.

• 1:26:47Speaker 02

  What made it interesting statistically going into the series, you know, who's the best defender on Wemby plus minus?

• 1:26:54Bill Simmons?

  Who?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  OG.

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  In the, I think in the league, he had the highest plus minus guard.

• 1:27:03Bill Simmons?

  Did you know he was that good?

• 1:27:05Speaker 02

  No, no, I knew, uh, he was a great defender, great, like elite. Uh, I never thought he'd be able to shoot and make shots and make plays the way he does. And I, I never knew he had the IQ. Yeah, he has an incredibly high basketball instinctive IQ.

• 1:27:23Bill Simmons?

  I love how he There's got to, there's no way to have a stat for this, but like, do you do the most positive things that you're capable of doing in the least negative things?

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:36Bill Simmons?

  Something about like,

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  He didn't make a lot of mistakes.

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  The best out of anyone. Like you always have these guys who are like, oh, I bet I can do it and they can't. He never does anything he can't do.

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, the whole league have, has irrational confidence.

• 1:27:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:27:50Speaker 02

  Every player has irrational confidence. That's what makes them good. Uh, but if you want to be a successful coach, I always tell young coaches, if you can get all 12 of your guys to know exactly who they are. Now you're never going to do that, but if you can do that, you will never lose. You would never lose.

• 1:28:09Bill Simmons?

  You talk to coaches all the time.

• 1:28:10Speaker 02

  All the time.

• 1:28:11Bill Simmons?

  You're like the fucking Yoda of coaches.

• 1:28:14Speaker 02

  I do talk a lot.

• 1:28:15Bill Simmons?

  You talk to all of them. What is their biggest thing that they're worried about now? Like just with basketball in 2026?

• 1:28:21Speaker 02

  No one's ever asked that question to me. That's a great question.

• 1:28:24Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:28:25Speaker 02

  I think a lot of them are concerned with how many the outside forces touching their players. There's just too many people.

• 1:28:35Bill Simmons?

  You mean like shooting coach, manager, agent?

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Even inside, like you got 10 skill development guys who I love. Uh, you have the, the medical team now is bigger than your coaching staff. There's just so many voices and how do you manage those voices? Like culture is not just the players. If your culture in the training room or with your skill development aren't all locked in on the same thing, you're not winning.

• 1:29:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Um, you know, 15 years ago, I had to worry about four coaches and two trainers.

• 1:29:12Bill Simmons?

  You might add two.

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, two or three coaches and two trainers. It was easy to kind of circle the wagons and have a great culture. Now you got, you got, you know, a lot of people.

• 1:29:23Bill Simmons?

  How many coaches do we actually need in all seriousness? Cause like I was watching, they were showing the 76 finals.

• 1:29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:30Bill Simmons?

  And the Celtics had Tom Heinsohn as the head coach, John Killey as assistant. And that was it.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:36Bill Simmons?

  It was just the two of them. And if, if both of them got thrown out, like Dave Cowens had to become the coach.

• 1:29:42Speaker 02

  Yeah. We, we had Dick Harder and Jeff Van Gundy.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  It sounds great.

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:29:46Bill Simmons?

  Um, isn't that easier?

• 1:29:47Speaker 02

  It was so cool because I remember I hurt my knee and I needed a, a coach to come rebound for me. I need a skill development guy. I do love the skill development guys. I think they really help players.

• 1:29:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Speaker 02

  Um, I would call Jeff Van Gundy. And that's, you know, it's funny, Jeff would come and just, Jeff was the greatest freaking guy. Cause he shut his mouth and he just rebounded for me. He could tell like I was just shooting, shooting. And if I miss, he'd run to get it and throw it back. Wouldn't say a word. Just, just bag balls for you and shot. And you know, it wasn't until the middle of that workout one night, we're just sitting there talking afterwards. And he said his age and I said, wait a minute, I'm older than you? What? You know, I didn't even know that, you know? Jeffrey, isn't that crazy?

• 1:30:34Bill Simmons?

  So they worry about outside forces?

• 1:30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:37Bill Simmons?

  How about wear and tear of the schedule?

• 1:30:39Speaker 02

  Not as much as you think.

• 1:30:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:41Speaker 02

  I think the coaches worry about that far less than front office and medical teams do. And then I think they do worry about it's harder to get players to buy in now.

• 1:30:56Bill Simmons?

  Because of the two ways?

• 1:30:58Speaker 02

  No, because of all the other stuff, you know? Everyone has their own brand now, you know, everyone.

• 1:31:03Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:31:04Speaker 02

  You know, guys who you're like, why, why do you have? Why do you have a person?

• 1:31:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Speaker 02

  Why do you have a publicist? What do you need a publicist for?

• 1:31:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. You're an 11th man.

• 1:31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, they all have them. They're talking, selling something, creating something. I mean, this is real business and money for these guys. So I think that's what they're more concerned by than anything else.

• 1:31:29Speaker 03

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• 1:32:13Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tipoff Plus as the official beer sponsor of the NBA. Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21-plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, prizes, and details. I have something that you didn't know about.

• 1:33:00Bill Simmons?

  You know what that is?

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  No. Oh, my gosh. This is awesome. Where did you get this from?

• 1:33:07Bill Simmons?

  I, after the 2007 draft.

• 1:33:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:33:11Bill Simmons?

  Somebody at ESPN grabbed this for me and sent me an email and said, hey, I grabbed the envelope. Do you want it? And I was like, fuck yeah, I'll take it, not realizing. How about that?

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, this won a title for me.

• 1:33:23Bill Simmons?

  That won you a title?

• 1:33:24Speaker 02

  This won me a title. I will say, that was the lowest our office has ever been.

• 1:33:31Bill Simmons?

  I mean, we- It's the lowest I think I've ever been as a sports fan.

• 1:33:34Speaker 02

  We did everything to get the best pick. I mean, I wish I could have some of those games back that, that, I mean-

• 1:33:41Bill Simmons?

  You're just ISOing for Gerald Green in March, mid-March?

• 1:33:47Speaker 02

  I would look up in the stands some nights and, you know, let's say Gerald's having a night or somebody and Danny's looking at me like,

• 1:33:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:33:55Speaker 02

  Take him out.

• 1:33:57Bill Simmons?

  I remember Rondo was almost like too good to play in those things.

• 1:34:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, Rondo, I mean, it was-

• 1:34:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so that one comes up, that's it.

• 1:34:03Speaker 02

  That was, yeah, that was a rough night.

• 1:34:05Bill Simmons?

  Cause think about it, if we got, if we got one and you took Oden.

• 1:34:10Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 1:34:11Bill Simmons?

  You're probably doing TV the last 15 years. Danny swears he would take a Durant.

• 1:34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't know if that's true.

• 1:34:18Bill Simmons?

  I think that's true.

• 1:34:19Speaker 02

  But Danny kept things so close, I wouldn't have known until late anyway.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  Well, the story I always heard was that the Celtics doctor, they had a great doctor back then.

• 1:34:28Speaker 02

  Doctor McKean, the best.

• 1:34:30Bill Simmons?

  That he saw the Oden stuff and he was like-

• 1:34:32Speaker 02

  He actually gave a couple of flags. The only one that always, you know, Doctor McKean and I have become best friends with golf and the only thing I still kill him on, uh, Brandon Roy.

• 1:34:43Speaker 02

  Like, we could have had him and he, he, uh, he said, guys- No.

• 1:34:50Bill Simmons?

  He wasn't wrong. He was like four years.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  He's got a five year window.

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:53Speaker 02

  You know, he said.

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  But it was a really good five years.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I always say, I would have taken those five years.

• 1:34:57Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:34:58Speaker 02

  But he was, it was amazing how correct. He said, that guy's gonna play four or five years and then his career is gonna go the other way. I mean, it was like to the year. It's unbelievable.

• 1:35:08Bill Simmons?

  Jesus.

• 1:35:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:09Bill Simmons?

  So what's your final Yanis prediction before we go?

• 1:35:12Speaker 02

  I think he gets moved.

• 1:35:14Bill Simmons?

  You think he gets moved?

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Bill Simmons?

  East Coast or West Coast?

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  I don't, you know, I think teams make a mistake when they worry about that. Get the best deal.

• 1:35:22Bill Simmons?

  Okay. But I'm saying, would you predict Eastern Conference or Western Conference?

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go West.

• 1:35:27Bill Simmons?

  You're going West?

• 1:35:27Speaker 02

  No, I'm sorry. I'm gonna go East.

• 1:35:29Bill Simmons?

  You're going East?

• 1:35:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Yanis will be in the NBA Finals again?

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  Yes, if he goes to the right place.

• 1:35:35Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Thanasis will be in the NBA Finals again?

• 1:35:37Speaker 02

  He'll be there. He'll be there for sure. He gonna be on the team.

• 1:35:41Bill Simmons?

  What was Thanasis's best pickup basketball strength?

• 1:35:45Speaker 02

  Energy. One, one thing I tell you, like, the dude, uh, there were days where he, he actually was useful because, you know, you.

• 1:35:55Bill Simmons?

  He would ramp it up?

• 1:35:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was playing hard. Like, Thanasis, no one wanted to practice against him.

• 1:36:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I was gonna say, was he the guy in the gym that everybody was getting mad at because he was trying too hard?

• 1:36:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know what was that for me? It was Leon Wood, the ref.

• 1:36:10Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I made the All-Star team that year and I swear to gosh, it's because of Leon Wood. I hated him. Uh, I would, back then you're playing 42 minutes and back then you practiced every day.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:36:21Speaker 02

  And you scrimmaged a lot. And, you know, I just played 42 minutes guarding DJ and the next day we're practicing and Leon Wood is picking me up full court, you know, I, there were days I wanted to just punch him.

• 1:36:34Bill Simmons?

  But that's probably, probably why it hurts when you hit a five wood now.

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, no doubt. Hurts when I bend down.

• 1:36:39Bill Simmons?

  You played probably 80 games against Leon Wood?

• 1:36:42Speaker 02

  It's funny.

• 1:36:42Bill Simmons?

  How do you?

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  The last game that Leon did, I say, Leon, you move just like me. We did too much.

• 1:36:50Bill Simmons?

  Who'd you think, by the way, I had, I had, uh, before we go, I had you just coached a team questions, random ones. Who did you think the best ref in the league was?

• 1:36:59Speaker 02

  You're in the, in the, right now?

• 1:37:01Bill Simmons?

  Right now. The best ref this season that you saw?

• 1:37:03Speaker 02

  I thought Scott Foster.

• 1:37:05Bill Simmons?

  Scott Foster? Wow.

• 1:37:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I thought, I think he has really become of, uh, I, it's, you know what I've learned? It's not just his refereeing. Where, where Scott has improved is his people skills. And, uh, you know, there's a couple of other ones that I, that I really like.

• 1:37:23Bill Simmons?

  Any young ones?

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  Uh, Josh, Josh Tiven, I think has a good demeanor overall, uh, takes it very seriously. I love, I love, um, I learned a little bit during COVID. I got a chance to, to golf with some of the refs.

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:37:39Speaker 02

  And, uh, it's interesting. I love, I have found this thing. Some of these guys care so much. They want to be like really good at their jobs and those are the guys I like. Then there's another group of guys that like, why are you so upset? It's just a game. You, you, you know what I mean?

• 1:37:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:59Speaker 02

  So give me that first group because, uh, it hurts them. Like they know when they make a mistake and it's, it hurts them just like you. Those are the refs you want.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Scott Foster.

• 1:38:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he's really, he's a solid NBA ref.

• 1:38:17Bill Simmons?

  What coach impressed you the most that you went against?

• 1:38:20Speaker 02

  That's a great, well, you're good questions.

• 1:38:22Bill Simmons?

  But I forgot to ask you these the last time you were on.

• 1:38:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh.

• 1:38:26Bill Simmons?

  Was there one where you're like, man, that guy's got fucking everything going here?

• 1:38:29Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, it's tough. Oklahoma was so good.

• 1:38:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:33Speaker 02

  But I still think he's really good.

• 1:38:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:34Speaker 02

  I, I think he, yeah, I, I think he's,

• 1:38:39Speaker 02

  he's really marked that, like he does, he makes the right plays. He subs the right guys in. Uh, though I thought in the, uh, the last series with guys injured, you know, it was, it was tougher for him.

• 1:38:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:53Speaker 02

  I was impressed with Mike Brown this year. Uh, you know, you know, I've played against him, coached against him and two Eastern. You know, I beat him twice, uh, when he had LeBron.

• 1:39:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:05Speaker 02

  Uh, and I think his growth has, he's, he's a different coach from when he was back then. Uh, there's no, like, he's different. I love, and I, I, I'm a couple, we gotta come with this. I love, there are certain coaches, you better be ready.

• 1:39:20Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:39:21Speaker 02

  And then there's other coaches I felt like, ah.

• 1:39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:39:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is this.

• 1:39:27Speaker 02

  I know what they're doing.

• 1:39:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  There's there's certain there are coaches that I felt, uh, cause I thought one of the things I did well throughout my career was ATLs. You know, uh, we call a timeout, we were scoring.

• 1:39:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:38Speaker 02

  Uh, I had a very, very, very prominent coach. He told me he lost, he he admitted this, he lost a game. Uh, to me because they had a timeout.

• 1:39:50Speaker 02

  We didn't, and he didn't use it because he didn't want me to be able to draw up a play.

• 1:39:55Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:39:55Speaker 02

  And he and he said it was so stupid that he didn't.

• 1:39:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:58Speaker 02

  Um, and there's coaches that you feel the same about. Like, yeah, I I call a timeout.

• 1:40:07Speaker 02

  They're gonna get to draw up a play too, and he's killing us right now.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:40:10Speaker 02

  Out of timeouts. So there's, you know, that goes both ways with coaches.

• 1:40:14Bill Simmons?

  And Stevens was the best I ever saw at that.

• 1:40:16Speaker 02

  Brad was great out of timeouts.

• 1:40:18Bill Simmons?

  I don't I.

• 1:40:18Speaker 02

  Very good.

• 1:40:19Bill Simmons?

  I don't know, he must have had like some database of all these crazy plays that he would have.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, you would be amazed at the coaches like, uh, Ty Lou has, uh, every ATL that I've ever drawn up.

• 1:40:32Bill Simmons?

  Um, really?

• 1:40:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, the entire time he was my assistant.

• 1:40:35Bill Simmons?

  He he. Just like in a Google Doc or something?

• 1:40:37Speaker 02

  No, he would draw it up and keep it. He had a book. He would draw them all up and he would keep them. Um, and they beat us, um, in Philly one game with one of my plays and it incensed me. It just.

• 1:40:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, geez.

• 1:40:52Speaker 02

  pissed me off so bad. Uh, they literally ran a play to that.

• 1:40:56Bill Simmons?

  It's a violation.

• 1:40:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it it it was flawless. And, you know, we talked about it afterwards. He was laughing. I was like, like, and Tibbs did that a lot. You know, we run all, you know, cause we all steal from each other. Nobody's a genius in this. We all think we are. No one's. You, I I could watch a game. I watch a game now. Oh, wow. That's good. I could tweet this. You know, that's how coaches watch games. It's it's pretty cool.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I remember game one, we were texting and you were like, I don't like, I don't like this Wemby on Towns.

• 1:41:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:28Bill Simmons?

  I don't like this. He's gonna, he'll get away from this as this goes along.

• 1:41:31Speaker 02

  I kept telling you, I was like, I don't like this matchup, you know?

• 1:41:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, guess what? He stopped doing it by by game three.

• 1:41:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:41:37Bill Simmons?

  Give me two young players who aren't superstars or known stars yet that you think are gonna get there.

• 1:41:46Speaker 02

  Well, he's known, but Edge Combe has a chance to be really good. Uh, cause he has the makeup and I think having Maxey around him.

• 1:41:54Bill Simmons?

  So you're buying stock on the Maxey.

• 1:41:56Speaker 02

  Edge Combe thing, maybe too small, we'll see.

• 1:41:58Bill Simmons?

  What did you like about Edge Combe?

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  His edge. Like he he's a, he's gonna be, what Edge Combe is gonna be, I don't know how good he'll be offensively. You know, he played on Austin's A U team. Uh, um, I don't know how good he'll be offensively. He's ahead of where I thought he was already. But he's gonna be an elite defensive player in the NBA. Elite, uh, that's coming and and you can see that. I'm trying to canvass the league with my imagination right now.

• 1:42:25Bill Simmons?

  I would have thrown Dylan Harper in there before the finals.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  Well, Dylan Harper's already known.

• 1:42:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like, uh, that's the obvious choice for all of us is Dylan Harper.

• 1:42:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm thinking like.

• 1:42:34Speaker 02

  But Castle is the other guy that we don't talk about enough, you know? Castle is a, uh, being a, a consistent shooter away from being a consistent All-Star player every year.

• 1:42:46Bill Simmons?

  How about Cedric Coward?

• 1:42:48Speaker 02

  I don't know yet. Uh, you like him.

• 1:42:50Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, you like him, I'm not sure yet.

• 1:42:53Bill Simmons?

  I do.

• 1:42:54Speaker 02

  Not sure about the intangibles, you know?

• 1:42:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's tough because he was on a shit team.

• 1:42:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's it's so hard to judge some of these guys. And it's also hard to judge a guy on a good team that doesn't play a lot or play his role. You know?

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:07Speaker 02

  You don't get to see it.

• 1:43:08Bill Simmons?

  My problem is I don't go to as many games as I used to. And I always pick up, I'm sure you're the same way, you pick up so much more in person.

• 1:43:16Speaker 02

  Oh, you do.

• 1:43:17Bill Simmons?

  The Clippers backup center.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:19Bill Simmons?

  Who ended up getting hurt, Niederhauser, whatever his name is. I love that guy.

• 1:43:22Speaker 02

  He's playing well early, yeah.

• 1:43:24Bill Simmons?

  That guy's, that guy's a guy, he will be like in a playoff rotation.

• 1:43:27Speaker 02

  So I got a question for you, other than Boston and the Knicks. Who will be the other two teams in the East?

• 1:43:35Bill Simmons?

  Next year?

• 1:43:38Bill Simmons?

  I'm interested to see what Charlotte does with 14 and 18. And then maybe next year is not their year. Maybe they'll be like, we'll draft two more guys. This is a slow build.

• 1:43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:43:48Bill Simmons?

  But I also think they could zag the other way and just go get somebody really good and make a run in it with the shooting they have.

• 1:43:54Speaker 02

  I wouldn't be surprised if they moved someone and then did the trade as well.

• 1:44:00Bill Simmons?

  Honestly, that was like an interesting Yanis team to me. It's a different timeline, but

• 1:44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Bill Simmons?

  But Charlotte was a wild card for me though.

• 1:44:08Speaker 02

  Charles is one of those young coaches that I was

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  That's the other thing. They're really well coached.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  That I was extremely impressed with. We beat them three out of four times. And we caught them early. And I remember sitting with John when Horace in the office and he said, man, that team's coming. I said, oh, they're here.

• 1:44:24Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:44:25Speaker 02

  I said, I don't know if they know it, but they're here.

• 1:44:27Bill Simmons?

  So I would go Boston.

• 1:44:31Bill Simmons?

  What do we think Cleveland's gonna look like?

• 1:44:32Speaker 02

  I don't know. Who knows? You know, they're gonna be in it. You know, Cleveland, they have to make some decisions.

• 1:44:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, they can't have the $120 million tax team again.

• 1:44:44Speaker 02

  Can they win with both big guys? To me, it's not the money. They can move the money.

• 1:44:47Bill Simmons?

  They'll trade Allen.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  That's, that's the question for them.

• 1:44:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, one of the things I wonder, like, do they trade Allen in a sign and trade with LeBron? For the LeBron Cleveland farewell tour and does he even want to do that?

• 1:44:57Speaker 02

  That whole thing is gonna be a mess. I mean, whatever LeBron does and he, listen, he deserves it. But where he goes and what he does, it feels like things are fractured a little bit in L.A. With him, but I don't know if that's actually true, but it feels that way.

• 1:45:12Bill Simmons?

  Everything feels fractured until they figure out a monetary figure to make it unfractured.

• 1:45:18Speaker 02

  The makeup is unbelievable in our end.

• 1:45:20Bill Simmons?

  Well, I told you, I think he's going to Golden State. I really do. I think that's gonna happen.

• 1:45:24Speaker 02

  I don't believe that, but you've said that.

• 1:45:26Bill Simmons?

  I really think it's gonna happen. Alright, so Boston, New York. Cleveland kinda lingering.

• 1:45:32Bill Simmons?

  I I don't know about Orlando.

• 1:45:34Speaker 02

  Well, the the two teams to me that people are sleeping on is what Atlanta does.

• 1:45:39Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:45:40Speaker 02

  And then what um Indiana does. Getting Zoop was big for them.

• 1:45:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I worry about.

• 1:45:47Speaker 02

  They would rather have that fifth pick.

• 1:45:50Speaker 02

  Or whatever, but getting Zoop was was uh they're gonna be uh good next year.

• 1:45:55Bill Simmons?

  I just what what's Halber gonna look like and what's his confidence like?

• 1:46:00Speaker 02

  He's probably playing now.

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  I would assume.

• 1:46:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Indiana is a wild card and Indiana is the one team that's like we could beat the Knicks. And then the biggest wild card is Detroit, who we didn't mention. What are they gonna do with the cat with the would they have all their picks?

• 1:46:13Speaker 02

  I'm glad I don't have their decision. They it's to me, they have a franchise defining decision to make and I'm not sure which way you go. And that's what.

• 1:46:23Bill Simmons?

  What do you think's the decision?

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  Duren.

• 1:46:26Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I think that we know how that's gonna play out, right?

• 1:46:29Speaker 02

  Well, they're gonna pay him, but are are they gonna pay him the max? Are they?

• 1:46:33Bill Simmons?

  If they pay him the max, I I just wouldn't do that.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 1:46:37Bill Simmons?

  You can't pay a center the max that's not Wemba Yama, basically.

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, that's a brutal decision because if you don't, you were, you know, if I was another team with money, you wanna mess the business up?

• 1:46:47Bill Simmons?

  That should be Brooklyn, right?

• 1:46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, sign him to an offer sheet.

• 1:46:50Bill Simmons?

  Isn't Brooklyn the only one with a?

• 1:46:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's only two teams, I thought.

• 1:46:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:54Speaker 02

  But you you get a two for one. If they if they sign him back, they hurt their team. If they don't sign him, they hurt their team.

• 1:47:03Bill Simmons?

  Well, shit, I mean, this is no matter how much the NBA changes, this has happened every decade. Like, remember McElvein in Seattle? And somebody offer sheeted him or whatever, and then he made more money than Sean Kemp.

• 1:47:14Speaker 02

  I remember John Contract.

• 1:47:16Bill Simmons?

  John Contract, right, that's another one.

• 1:47:18Speaker 02

  John Contract.

• 1:47:20Bill Simmons?

  Was he was on your team, you're right.

• 1:47:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:22Bill Simmons?

  Who was the maddest at that, Kevin Willis?

• 1:47:24Speaker 02

  Dominique. He's making more than Dominique.

• 1:47:26Bill Simmons?

  More than Dominique.

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  More than everybody.

• 1:47:28Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  It's funny, I remember.

• 1:47:29Bill Simmons?

  Dominique had the nightclub, he was fine.

• 1:47:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, he had twenty ones in the nightclub. I remember Stan Caston, who was, you know, Dodger lower now.

• 1:47:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:39Speaker 02

  But I remember Stan Caston calling me up. I said, hey, I need to sit with you and Dominique. We got this situation. And I remember we sit and talked about the guy, I could care less.

• 1:47:50Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:47:51Speaker 02

  He care less. I was happy for John Koncak. I'm like, what are you gonna turn it down? But the Pistons did it to screw us and they and they got and they did. It bothered our team.

• 1:48:00Bill Simmons?

  That GM was great, McCloskey.

• 1:48:02Speaker 02

  Oh, he was great. He was cutthroat.

• 1:48:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:04Speaker 02

  He was mad because Stan Kasten put an office sheet on James Edwards and he told Isaiah and them the next free agent that the Hawks have, we're gonna bother them. And that's why he did.

• 1:48:14Bill Simmons?

  Red Auerbach did that with the Knicks because they were sniffing around McHale when McHale was restricted. So he signed, it was like Sly Williams and Marvin. I forget who the three guys were and and he made them match all that stuff.

• 1:48:26Speaker 02

  Red is the greatest, you know, greatest coach, one of them.

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  Red's the greatest GM ever, front office, ever.

• 1:48:34Bill Simmons?

  Feels like he is.

• 1:48:35Speaker 02

  Oh, it's if you go by the just how they built the one team.

• 1:48:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:40Speaker 02

  You know, they got Joe, they got Kevin McHale and Robert Parish for Joe Barry Care. They they draft Danny Ainge knowing he's gonna play baseball.

• 1:48:48Bill Simmons?

  Drafted Bird.

• 1:48:49Speaker 02

  And drafted Bird the year before. They get DJ for Rick Roby, I think.

• 1:48:53Bill Simmons?

  He traded for Bill Russell.

• 1:48:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, oh, I didn't know that.

• 1:48:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:48:57Speaker 02

  Okay, then it's over.

• 1:48:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:59Speaker 02

  The debate is over then.

• 1:49:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's like, I like that Bill Russell guy.

• 1:49:02Speaker 02

  But you should do a show on who follows after that.

• 1:49:07Bill Simmons?

  So I think Presti's in the running.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  He is now, for sure. Jerry West.

• 1:49:11Bill Simmons?

  Because it's that, because he's nailed the draft picks and he's made some really good trades and honestly like that and you were there for the Quippers. And they're like, we need to do this. And he's like, I have to have SGA and I have to have all of these picks or I'm not doing it. Well, we can't do that. Okay, no trade. And he kind of waited out Bomber.

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  This is great. This is what Sam Presti learned this time around, that he didn't know the first time when he had all the players. Getting Shay is great. Getting Williams is great. You know what changed their team? He went out and got Caruso and Hartenstein. Those are the moves you have to learn how to make when you're a front office guy. And Sam didn't know how to make that move early on and now he understands the value of that.

• 1:49:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's another team to watch right now because they got Dort in a team option. They have Hartenstein in a team option. They're gonna, I don't think they'll ever pay second April. I'd be surprised.

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  Strange team because they have so many picks, so many players. They are looking at this guy and say, well, we can play this guy, you know.

• 1:50:10Bill Simmons?

  Right. They have that Thomas Soreberg guy they drafted. Nobody's ever even seen what he looks like.

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  They have the riches of all.

• 1:50:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Speaker 02

  So.

• 1:50:17Bill Simmons?

  So they could do. That's a team that Atlanta could potentially trade with.

• 1:50:22Speaker 02

  They could do whatever they want.

• 1:50:24Bill Simmons?

  I'm with you on Atlanta, but Atlanta has the same issue that you talked about earlier about who's scoring for me in the last four minutes of the game.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:50:32Bill Simmons?

  It was CJ in those two Knicks games.

• 1:50:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, CJ bailed him out.

• 1:50:35Bill Simmons?

  Thirty-four years old.

• 1:50:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's thirty-four, and that's how I looked at that series. I was like, if you've cut down CJ, who's their scorer? Like, I'm telling you, man, if you want to look at a championship team, start with the closers.

• 1:50:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, how about the Bucks the year Giannis won? It was mostly Middleton.

• 1:50:52Speaker 02

  It was Middleton.

• 1:50:53Bill Simmons?

  Closing.

• 1:50:53Speaker 02

  You know, the biggest change that Bud made was Giannis had the ball a lot. They took the ball out of Giannis' hands. They put it in Drew's hands and Chris Middleton's hands, and Giannis became the roller. And that two-man combination was unguardable, unguardable. And then they put Holliday on Chris Paul. After game three or whatever, game two, that changed the whole series.

• 1:51:16Bill Simmons?

  By the way, Drew Holliday,

• 1:51:19Bill Simmons?

  did you know that that could have been the other person they traded Darius Garland for? Did you read that? That was a report.

• 1:51:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, wow.

• 1:51:27Bill Simmons?

  It was there, she's been Harden and Drew Holliday. Did they beat the Knicks or come close with Drew Holliday?

• 1:51:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:33Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty interesting.

• 1:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's interesting. He's one of the great teammates and team players in the last ten years.

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  He's that valuable to a team.

• 1:51:43Bill Simmons?

  Last twenty.

• 1:51:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's that valuable to your team. He's just everything right.

• 1:51:49Bill Simmons?

  De'Aaron Fox going for the layup. I never got your point guard take on this. We didn't talk about this on the pod.

• 1:51:55Speaker 02

  I want you to go back and look at film. Doc Rivers steals the ball from Hakeem Olajuwon in game one of the Western Conference Finals. I grabbed the ball and I threw it ahead.

• 1:52:08Bill Simmons?

  You were in San Antonio?

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  On San Antonio. Grabbed the ball, throw it ahead to Sean Elliott. Sean promised to just dribble the clock out, right? He attacks the basket, gets fouled. I think he makes one. And Robert Ori, who was oh-for, makes a three at the buzzer. So, yeah, you dribbled that darn clock out. Now, he wouldn't have dribbled the clock out. And he would have, he probably.

• 1:52:32Bill Simmons?

  Maybe you chopped three more seconds off before you got fouled.

• 1:52:34Speaker 02

  At least three. But then now the foul to give, timing comes in. There were so many things that went wrong there. I mean, why would you foul, that was Fox, too, at half court?

• 1:52:44Bill Simmons?

  That kind of got lost in the whole thing.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, no one talked about that.

• 1:52:48Bill Simmons?

  And it looked like Alvarado almost went backcourt.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  He almost, and I think if he'd have waited another second, he was going that way.

• 1:52:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:53Speaker 02

  But besides that, Alvarado wasn't looking to shoot. He was looking to get the ball to Brunson.

• 1:52:59Bill Simmons?

  As fast as possible.

• 1:53:01Speaker 02

  They could have wasted four seconds more. It would have been a two-second timeout. They would have had two seconds and a timeout.

• 1:53:11Bill Simmons?

  What did you feel about Mitch not calling timeout right before Wemby threw the ball away?

• 1:53:17Speaker 02

  That's the only thing I didn't like. Now, if I was.

• 1:53:21Bill Simmons?

  Cause it's fast, right? He gets a rebound, he's right in front of him.

• 1:53:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you, you knew it was coming. You, you know, you, you had been prepared. Let's say if I was flipped, if I was the Knicks, I wouldn't have called a timeout. Because they're a veteran team.

• 1:53:33Bill Simmons?

  Right, they know.

• 1:53:34Speaker 02

  They know what to do, and I wouldn't want San Antonio to set their defense up. The only reason I, I would have called it, and I said it right away, is because they're so young. That's it. And, you know, Wemby gets a lot of heat from that, but I'm telling you, if you watch the Spurs play, they are the best advanced pass team in the NBA. They do it every time they grab it and they throw it. Uh, and you can see, was it Cassius?

• 1:53:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, he would.

• 1:53:59Speaker 02

  His eyes were there, and then he turned the, the wrong way.

• 1:54:03Bill Simmons?

  Would you see the other angle?

• 1:54:04Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:05Bill Simmons?

  He had both point guards to his right.

• 1:54:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:07Bill Simmons?

  And he was looking at this way, but he had Fox right there with his hand up.

• 1:54:10Speaker 02

  They always throw it ahead. That's what they do. And, you know, but that one, yeah, I'm calling a timeout.

• 1:54:17Bill Simmons?

  And then.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  In five years, they wouldn't.

• 1:54:20Bill Simmons?

  How did you feel about Wemby being 30 feet from the basket on the OG tip play?

• 1:54:24Speaker 02

  I didn't like that. I said that yesterday. You know, you remember them coming out, and Wemby was.

• 1:54:30Bill Simmons?

  They were disheveled.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I don't know what happened.

• 1:54:32Bill Simmons?

  There was a good camera behind the basket of they, they, somebody came in that they weren't anticipating.

• 1:54:38Speaker 02

  Somebody in the Knicks came in that they didn't account for. And the other thing I think is, they were surprised OG was taking the ball out.

• 1:54:46Speaker 02

  I don't, something happened there that I don't know. Only thing that I do know is I wouldn't, I don't think they wanted Wimby, uh, being the guy that trapped Brunson.

• 1:54:56Bill Simmons?

  Wouldn't you want Wimby in the paint just to get, just to challenge any drive?

• 1:55:00Speaker 02

  I think you put Wimby on Towns.

• 1:55:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  And, um, you know, there's not gonna be a drive. There's gonna be a shot and you want your biggest guy.

• 1:55:07Bill Simmons?

  Six seconds left?

• 1:55:08Speaker 02

  You want your biggest guy under the rim.

• 1:55:10Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:55:11Speaker 02

  And he would have been, if he had have been on Towns, you know, he would have been there.

• 1:55:15Bill Simmons?

  I think.

• 1:55:15Speaker 02

  That was a tough one, but I think.

• 1:55:17Bill Simmons?

  It was still like one of the eight greatest plays in the history of the league.

• 1:55:20Speaker 02

  He was on Towns.

• 1:55:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:23Speaker 02

  When he came out, you could see him, he was there and then the guards start pointing. I, I would love to know what actually happened, uh, because something on that floor, one of those guards said, no, you go here. I mean, they were, they, something messed them up and I don't know what it was.

• 1:55:40Bill Simmons?

  Mitch Johnson, this summer will be thinking about why did the ball have to bounce front of the rim, straight toward OG like, like, what are the odds?

• 1:55:49Speaker 02

  Perfect.

• 1:55:49Bill Simmons?

  It was a brick. It's just like.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  First of all, not only the perfect bounce, you know how hard it is to tap that in? The ball didn't have to go in.

• 1:55:55Bill Simmons?

  I think that was like a one in a hundred thousand play.

• 1:55:58Speaker 02

  It was, but it's also one in a hundred thousand being alert.

• 1:56:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:01Speaker 02

  Like a lot of guys would have been standing there. He saw it and went for it.

• 1:56:05Bill Simmons?

  And then there's an angle of Vassell comes from the side to try to hit the ball.

• 1:56:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:10Bill Simmons?

  He probably misses it by like an inch.

• 1:56:12Speaker 02

  Was the guy that I thought could have got there a step earlier. If Harper gets there a step earlier, he's in front of, uh, OG.

• 1:56:19Bill Simmons?

  So if they, if the Spurs win that game, what happens?

• 1:56:22Speaker 02

  I think the Knicks win the series.

• 1:56:23Bill Simmons?

  I think the Knicks win the series anyway. Yeah. I agree.

• 1:56:25Speaker 02

  Um, I thought.

• 1:56:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause they could go in San Antonio and win. It didn't matter.

• 1:56:29Speaker 02

  I think it's clearly, they had five exact same games. I think we would have had two more of those games and that's what I want. I just wanted more basketball. All I have now is a US Open this week in golf.

• 1:56:42Bill Simmons?

  Who's your pick?

• 1:56:44Speaker 02

  That's a good, uh, I'm going with, uh, Xander Schaafle.

• 1:56:47Bill Simmons?

  That was one of my two. I have him or Fleetwood.

• 1:56:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, Fleetwood. I don't know the length, uh, but I'm going with him. And then I think Scotty's gonna have a good week this week.

• 1:56:56Bill Simmons?

  Is it true you're playing in a celebrity tournament?

• 1:56:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna play. Yeah. You know, uh, the bar has been-

• 1:57:03Bill Simmons?

  Can you play with Larry?

• 1:57:04Speaker 02

  The bar has been, Larry is supposed to play with me. Uh, I've told NBC that Larry wants to play, right? Larry calls me and says he wants to play. Now, I, you, you're getting to know Larry, but I've known Larry for-

• 1:57:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  Thirty-five, whatever.

• 1:57:16Bill Simmons?

  You guys are my favorite buddy cop comedy.

• 1:57:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Uh, there is a hundred percent chance if Larry commits, he's gonna back out.

• 1:57:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:23Speaker 02

  All Larry needs is the night before we're leaving to hit a shot and it goes wrong and he's out.

• 1:57:29Bill Simmons?

  That's it?

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  There's no way Larry's-

• 1:57:31Bill Simmons?

  I still can't believe he went to game four. After the game three loss, I thought he was a hundred percent chance he's flying back.

• 1:57:37Speaker 02

  Trust me, there was conversation about it. It's also, he told me if he could have left at halftime of game three-

• 1:57:45Bill Simmons?

  He would, he would have just left.

• 1:57:46Speaker 02

  He was thinking about it. Yeah.

• 1:57:48Bill Simmons?

  But it did give us one of the single funniest videos in the history of the NBA, the Josh Hart layup.

• 1:57:53Speaker 02

  And then he gave me the greatest text in game three. He, I'm, I'm sitting there watching and I get a text and it says, hey, can you tell your buddy Mitch to, to, he's standing in my way. Can you ask him to please move?

• 1:58:07Bill Simmons?

  He was blocking his view?

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  He was blocking his, Larry said the whole game, he was trying to look around. He said, and I can deal with Mitch, but then they had this other guy, this other assistant. Yeah. He kept jumping up and I was like, not you too.

• 1:58:19Bill Simmons?

  It's a curve episode. He's trying to-

• 1:58:21Speaker 02

  So it's funny.

• 1:58:22Bill Simmons?

  All right, Doc Rivers.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  Good seeing you. I love your studio.

• 1:58:25Bill Simmons?

  Thanks for coming over. This was a blast.

• 1:58:27Speaker 02

  Hey, Bill has an amazing house, people. Oof. It's amazing.

• 1:58:31Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, Doc.

• 1:58:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's nice.

• 1:58:33Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Uh, thanks to Doc Rivers. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo as well. Don't forget, um, rewatchables, Hand That Rocks The Cradle. That one is already up. Domestic Disturbance next week. Please watch this. John Travolta, Vince Vaughn Trying To Be A Bad Guy, uh, really special movie. I think I'm gonna have one more podcast before the end of the week, so, uh, we'll try to have something hopefully Thursday or Thursday night, uh, heading into- The second USA World Cup Soccer Game. I can't wait. See you later in the week.

• 1:59:28Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MYRESSET. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 8778HOPENY, or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, WildHorse9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minneh Sharon and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island, Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. WildHorse9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss WildHorse9. Only in theaters November 6th. Get tickets now.

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