EP.280 - MEERA SYAL

Adam talks with British comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist, producer and actor Dame Meera Syal about memoir writing, growing up part of the only brown family in a 1960s Midlands village, what the British Empire's legacy of colonialism meant to Meera's family, and then to her when she was handed some of the Empire's top awards, the problematic Peter Sellers song that gave Goodness Gracious Me its title, what the Simpsons should have done about Apu, and how Meera found herself in a Death Cafe. THIS EPISODE CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGE (mainly after the interview when Adam sings a song about jaw exercise). Visit the ADAM BUXTON PODCAST PATREON PAGE http://www.patreon.com/AdamBuxton for previously unheard interviews, Q&A episodes, Rosie pics and videos and other odd and sods. SEND IN PATREON JINGLES AND QUESTIONS mailto:[email protected] See pics, links, jingles, videos and more on ADAM'S WEBSITE https://www.adam-buxton.co.uk/ SUCCESSPOD https://www.audible.co.uk/search?keywords=successpod&k=successpod - 2026 (listen for free with a trial or subscription on Audible) Conversation recorded face-to-face in London on 26 May, 2026 Thanks to Diggory Waite and Claire Broughton at Hattrick and Séamus Murphy Mitchell for production support. Podcast illustration by Helen Green https://helengreenillustration.com/ RELATED LINKS MEERA SYAL 2026 TOUR https://www.fane.co.uk/meera-syal- September 2026 (Fane) KUMARS AT NUMBER 42 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLQTAXw5ECeFK-tAkYT3H3jvywI_lApDe7- YouTube Playlist MEERA SYAL - WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yov_fX5DLFI - 2004 (YouTube) GARETH GATES & THE KUMARS - SPIRIT IN THE SKY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDgs7ERjC7A- 2003 (YouTube) DEATH CAFE https://deathcafe.com/ (Death cafe website) PETER SELLERS AND SOPHIA LOREN - GOODNESS GRACIOUS ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUZCXaStvnc - 1960 (YouTube) ROWAN ATKINSON, PIXIE LOTT, NICK MOHAMMED - GOODNESS GRACIOUS ME https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXRDF2Vi_Gw - 2013 (YouTube) PETER SELLERS AND SOPHIA LOREN - BANGERS AND MASH https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGFpVN2xwXU - 1961 (YouTube) Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Adam Buxton?

  This is an ad for Squarespace.

• 0:03Adam Buxton?

  Okay, we'll return to the AI apocalypse in just a wee wee moment, but first I wanted to talk about Squarespace. Do you know about Squarespace, Steve?

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Uh, yes, Monty. I think I might even be a little bit more tuned into modern tech, websites, et cetera, than you. I don't know, just guessing.

• 0:15Adam Buxton?

  Oh, Steve, I love this dynamic. I'm old and conservative, and you're young and progressive, and that's what makes the Newswind podcast such great listening. But yes, you're right, I must admit, I didn't know much about Squarespace. But because my new Grumble book, Hell in a Handcart, is out this month.

• 0:29Speaker 01

  And I look forward to getting enraged by that.

• 0:31Adam Buxton?

  So I should hope.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  Em, um, um.

• 0:34Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, the publishers, Bluestar and Dogwhistle, made a beautiful website for the book using Squarespace.

• 0:38Speaker 01

  I know, I got the newsletter that you sent out using Squarespace, and the website does look great. Videos of you airing your views, members' areas for your mad fans. You've even got a merch store, I see.

• 0:47Adam Buxton?

  That's right, the Union Jack top hat is a big seller. But they constructed it all so fast with Squarespace. They did most of it over one lunchtime, Steve.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  Well, you wouldn't want to spend much longer on it, would you?

• 0:56Adam Buxton?

  Shut up, Steve. But here's the thing, anyone listening to this can start a free trial right now at Squarespace.com/Buxton and see how easy and versatile Squarespace is. And when they're ready to launch a new website or domain, they can save 10% off their first purchase by using the offer code BUXTON at checkout.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Right, well, maybe I'll visit Squarespace.com/Buxton and start a new website just to refute all the nonsense in your new book.

• 1:18Adam Buxton?

  Oh, don't do that, Steve.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  I will.

• 1:20Adam Buxton?

  Oh, shut up, Steve.

• 1:21Speaker 01

  Uh.

• 1:22Adam Buxton?

  Shut up. Now, back to more depressing matters on Newswind.

• 1:26Adam Buxton?

  I added one more podcast to the giant podcast bin. Now you have plucked that podcast out and started listening. I took my microphone and found some human folk. Then I recorded all the noises while we spoke. My name is Adam Buxton, I'm a man. I want you to enjoy this, that's the plan.

• 1:58Adam Buxton?

  Hey, how you doing, podcats? It's Adam Buxton here. I'm walking through a Norfolk field on a warm, blustery day in late September 2026. Trotting along beside me is Rosie Buxton, my best dog friend. She's a whippet poodle cross. How are you feeling about this walk, doglegs? I have been more excited. Yeah, you were looking pretty comfortable on the kitchen floor there. But it's nice to get out, take advantage of the sunshine while we've got it. Before you know it, we're going to be plunged back into wintry darkness, Rosie. You mean extended kitchen sofa time? Oh, that sounds terrible.

• 2:43Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, okay. Anyway, how are you doing, podcats? I hope you've been keeping well since the last podcast I put out back in July. Hope Ed Sheeran and the AI apocalypse haven't put too much of a damper on the last few weeks for you. Feels like I've had quite a busy summer. Although recently I've mainly been clearing out and repainting sheds and listening to a lot of audiobooks in the process. Quite nice. Maybe I'll mention a few of them at the end of the podcast, in case you're interested. I have also been recording new conversations for the podcast and adding some golden bonus nuggets to the Adam Buxton Podcast Patreon page. Currently, if you visit the Patreon page, you will find an episode

• 3:27Adam Buxton?

  with Louis Theroux, talking about his favourite podcasts and some recent horror films, before I ran a few ideas for new podcast formats by him, most of which he poo-pooed. There is also a previously unheard conversation with writer Patrick Raden Keefe on the Patreon page, talking about the year he spent with Anthony Bourdain, his investigation into Trump's alleged N-word tape, and his big issue with Instagram's algorithm and Mark Wahlberg. And just last week, we added a new conversation with Jamie Dimitriou. Well, I say new, strictly

• 4:07Adam Buxton?

  speaking. It's another older conversation that had slipped through the cracks, but it's a good one, very enjoyable, funny time capsule of waffle, recorded in 2017, back before Staff Let's Flats blew up. And Jamie talks about the character that inspired that show, as well as appearing in Fleabag. And in the Q and As on the Patreon page, I have recently answered questions like, what were you doing outside a Waitrose in Ashford in April 2023? I revealed my deepest regret, and I told my Nevermind the Buzzcocks PP story. And myself and Diggory recorded a new episode last week as well. That should

• 4:51Adam Buxton?

  be out in just over a week. And you can hear all of that by signing up to the Patreon using the link in the description. That's where you'll also find the address to submit questions, contributions, stories, voice notes, et cetera, for the Q and A episodes, which I'm really enjoying. I hope you are too, if you have been listening. Okay, right now, let me tell you a bit about podcast number 280, which features a rambly conversation with British comedian, writer, playwright, singer, journalist, producer and actor Dame

• 5:28Adam Buxton?

  Mira Sihal. Mira facts. Born in Wolverhampton in 1961, Mira grew up in the small English mining village of Essington, north-east of Birmingham, where her Hindu father and Sikh mother had settled in England after leaving New Delhi, India in 1959. At school, Mira was one of only three South Asian pupils among 400, and she grew up aware of the atmosphere of racial tension articulated by local Conservative MP Enoch Powell in his infamous 1968 Rivers of Blood speech, delivered just a few miles away in Birmingham. After studying English

• 6:10Adam Buxton?

  and drama at Manchester University, she graduated with a double first, let me tell you. Mira's performing career moved to the next level after her award-winning 1983 one-woman student show, One of Us, which earned her an Equity card and led to her professional stage debut at London's Royal Court Theatre. By 1987, Mira could be seen in the feature film Sammy and Rosie Get Laid, directed by Stephen Frears, and in the BAFTA-winning ITV series The Little Princess. Her TV career continued to flourish in the 1990s with roles in BBC drama series that included Kinsey, Holding On, and In Deep, and the comedy series

• 6:53Adam Buxton?

  Keeping Mum, as well as being part of the cast of the sketch show The Real McCoy. In addition to acting, Mira was writing. She co-wrote the screenplay for the film Baji on the Beach, released in 1993, the feature debut of bend it like Beckham director Gurinda Chadda. And in 1996, her debut novel Anita and Me was published to great acclaim, going on to become a recommended set text on the UK school curriculum. Still waiting to hear if that's going to happen with Ramblebook. I think it is. In the following year, 1997,

• 7:33Adam Buxton?

  Mira's contributions across literature, drama and comedy were recognised with an MBE in the Queen's Alara Lara New Year's on this list applied to data. But it was in 1998 that Mira broke through to an even wider television audience as co-creator and star of the seminal BBC sketch show Goodness Gracious Me alongside Kolvinda Gheer, Nina Wadia, Dave Lamb, and future guest on this podcast and Mira's husband, they married in 2005, Sanjeev Bhaskar. From 2001 to 2006, Mira appeared as unfiltered grandmother Umi Kumar in comedy

• 8:13Adam Buxton?

  talk show The Kumars at number 42. All the while, she'd continued writing. Her novel Life Isn't All Ha Ha Hee Hee was published in 1999, and in 2002, Mira wrote the book to the West End musical Bombay Dreams. Novel number three, The House of Hidden Mothers, she's under the stairs, was published in 2015, the same year that Mira was awarded the CBE Alara. On Monday, the 28th of September, tomorrow as I speak, Mira is on stage in Birmingham for the first night of a speaking tour in support of her new memoir Vigilante. And on that tour, she's also visiting Nottingham, Newcastle, London, Bristol, Manchester and

• 8:54Adam Buxton?

  Edinburgh. You'll find a link for dates and tickets in the show notes of this episode. My conversation with Mira was recorded in London towards the end of May this year, 2026, a couple of days into the first of the five heatwaves that we experienced over the next few months. And we talked about the agonising process of memoir writing, what it was like to grow up as part of the only Brown family in a 1960s Midlands village, what the British Empire's legacy of colonialism meant to Mira's family, and then to her when she was handed some of the Empire's top honours. It was earlier this year, in fact, that Mira was

• 9:35Adam Buxton?

  made a Dame Commander of the Order of the British Empire. It's the DBE for services to literature, drama and charity. We also talked about the problematic Peter Sellers song that gave Goodness Gracious Me its title, what The Simpsons should have done about our poo, and what the death of Mira's mother taught her about mortality. But we began, as I sometimes do, with the recordings by asking if there was anything that Mira didn't want to talk about, and also testing my mic levels with the breakfast question, all of which tends to get cut out of most episodes. But this time, we left it in because it led

• 10:17Adam Buxton?

  to us talking about the episode of The Great British Bake Off that I appeared on with Mira, and which was broadcast in early 2025. I'll be back at the end for a bit more waffle, maybe some audio book recommendations. But right now, with Mira Sihal, sorry, Dame Mira Sihal, here we go.

• 10:41Speaker 02

  Ramble chat, let's have a ramble chat. We'll focus first on this, then concentrate on that. Come on, let's chew the fat and have a ramble chat. Put on your conversation coat and mind your talking hat. La, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la.

• 11:20Adam Buxton?

  Is there anything you don't want to talk about, anything you're sick of talking about, anything you'd rather just leave?

• 11:26Speaker 03

  No, I don't think so.

• 11:28Adam Buxton?

  Okay, I mean, you know,

• 11:29Speaker 03

  I can always say no.

• 11:30Adam Buxton?

  Exactly, exactly. As we go along.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  All right.

• 11:33Adam Buxton?

  If there's anything that comes up, just say.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  I will.

• 11:38Adam Buxton?

  Can we not talk about that or whatever, you know, however.

• 11:41Speaker 03

  Or how fucking dare you?

• 11:42Adam Buxton?

  How fucking dare you? Yes, yes. Although that will probably stay in because it's more spicy. I talked to Damon Albarn the other day.

• 11:52Speaker 03

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 11:53Adam Buxton?

  His partner in crime in Guerrillas, Jamie Hewlett.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:58Adam Buxton?

  The artist, and they were, I would say, refreshingly candid.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  What, about each other?

• 12:04Adam Buxton?

  Just about everything, like, just seemed quite unfiltered compared to the way most people feel they need to be in the modern media sphere.

• 12:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 12:17Adam Buxton?

  So it was, it was quite funny.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  And then didn't ask you to edit any of it?

• 12:22Adam Buxton?

  No, they, I was really surprised, actually. I sort of expected to get an email from the publicist.

• 12:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 12:29Adam Buxton?

  Saying, you know what, maybe lose the bit about Damon sometimes not wiping his bum.

• 12:37Adam Buxton?

  Which even at the time, he was going, oh, I can't believe I just said that. And then his friend Jamie said, don't worry, they won't put that in. I said, of course, I'm gonna put it in.

• 12:49Adam Buxton?

  Right, let's see. Mira, will you tell me what you had for breakfast this morning, please?

• 12:53Speaker 03

  I was very healthy, Adam. I had homemade chia banana pudding with blueberries.

• 13:00Adam Buxton?

  Oh, beautiful. I had some blueberries as well. But you did the homemade banana pudding. What does that involve?

• 13:06Speaker 03

  Oh, it honestly, it's so easy. You just mash the bananas in one of those mason jars, then you add chia seeds and yogurt or your milk of your choice. I put in vanilla essence and a bit of peanut butter. And you stick it in the fridge and it swells and goes into a pudding-y thing overnight. People put chocolate chips in and all kinds. And then I have that in the morning with loads of fruit and walnuts.

• 13:30Adam Buxton?

  Wow.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  So good. And it fills you up because it expands in your stomach. Because I, I used to eat sloth porridge, but actually I always felt hungry after about an hour and a half of porridge. It's like, I have to feel like I have had no breakfast, but not with chia seeds. They somehow do the trick.

• 13:44Adam Buxton?

  Well, obviously I know of your culinary genius. Because I shared a tent with you.

• 13:50Speaker 03

  You did.

• 13:50Adam Buxton?

  On the Great British Bake Off Stand Up to Cancer Celebrity Edition, which we recorded like two years ago.

• 13:57Speaker 03

  I know. And wasn't there, was there a heatwave then?

• 14:00Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, it was pretty hot.

• 14:01Speaker 03

  It was hot. How stressful was that?

• 14:04Adam Buxton?

  Really stressful. Yeah, why was it so stressful?

• 14:08Speaker 03

  I mean, for me, it's because my friends have always said, oh, you're a good cook. And, you know, when people say that to you over the years, you begin to believe it. And then you suddenly say, I'm going on this. And every single friend you have is like, right, right. Now we'll see if she's any good. So I felt this immense amount of sort of friend pressure. Not so much from the judges, but honestly, from all those mates who'd, you know, over the years said, oh, you, that, I love what, you know, you cook this, you cook that, we love that. And I love cooking, I really do. But suddenly, when it's an exam situation, which it did feel like, it becomes a lot, a lot less fun, doesn't it?

• 14:42Adam Buxton?

  Televised exam.

• 14:45Adam Buxton?

  Next to Tommy Tiernan, Self Esteem.

• 14:48Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 14:48Adam Buxton?

  And Adam Buxton.

• 14:49Speaker 03

  Well, I have to say, your alien cake is honestly the highlight of every series for me. Nothing is going to compete with your banana gently drooping in the heat until it laid its little head.

• 15:03Adam Buxton?

  It was very sad. Honestly, I, I literally could have cried. I was like, oh, you're joking, because I really genuinely thought like, I'm gonna win this because it's such a good idea.

• 15:13Speaker 03

  It was a brilliant idea and it looked amazing. I mean, you should have, you should have. You just miscalculated the droop factor.

• 15:21Adam Buxton?

  I really did.

• 15:22Speaker 03

  As many men do.

• 15:23Adam Buxton?

  I think I was stitched up. I think they gave me a banana that was too ripe.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  There you go.

• 15:27Adam Buxton?

  The whole concept relied on an unripe.

• 15:31Speaker 03

  Banana?

• 15:32Adam Buxton?

  Banana that would stand up stiff in that, I apologize for using the word stiff, but in that pie, in that cherry pie. Damn it!

• 15:41Speaker 03

  Never mind. Every film fan was applauding you.

• 15:44Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, thank you. But one of the compensations was that at the end, they let you have any food that's been made and they box it up.

• 15:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:54Adam Buxton?

  And so even some of the disastrous cakes were actually quite tasty.

• 15:58Speaker 03

  They were.

• 15:58Adam Buxton?

  And I got to go home with the food that you made, which was delicious. And that night, we had supper when I got back to Norfolk and ate your.

• 16:07Speaker 03

  Frida Sago paneer pie.

• 16:09Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 16:10Adam Buxton?

  Beautiful pie. Explain what was in that?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  I'm basically made a sauerpane curry and stuck it in a pie. That's what I did.

• 16:17Adam Buxton?

  I didn't even realise there was cheese in it.

• 16:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 16:20Adam Buxton?

  I hate cheese.

• 16:21Speaker 03

  Oh, well, it's not quite like, you know, it's a very different kind of cheese, much lighter. It's more like cottage cheese.

• 16:26Adam Buxton?

  It doesn't make it better for me, just the word cheese.

• 16:29Speaker 03

  But you ate it.

• 16:30Adam Buxton?

  Makes me sad. I, I loved it. So maybe I do like cheese.

• 16:33Speaker 03

  Maybe you do.

• 16:35Adam Buxton?

  Also, though, I had some of the oat crumpets.

• 16:37Speaker 03

  Did you like them?

• 16:38Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Oh, good.

• 16:39Adam Buxton?

  They were amazing.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 16:40Adam Buxton?

  I just did marmite crumpets, which were way too salty.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  Oh, but I love marmite.

• 16:46Adam Buxton?

  I mean, it was fine. Paul Hollywood said, not bad, but you've gone nuts with the salt. Oh, no, because I had hummus made from edamame beans.

• 16:55Speaker 03

  Also a very good idea.

• 16:56Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, but that was too salty as well.

• 16:58Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 16:59Adam Buxton?

  So anyway, what were your ones?

• 17:01Speaker 03

  They were savoury crumpets flavoured with curry leaves and lime. And I just brought a lot of Indian flavours into whatever I cook because that's what I'm confident with. That's what I grew up cooking. So

• 17:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  For me, that felt easy.

• 17:14Adam Buxton?

  That's the palette that you paint with.

• 17:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right, it is.

• 17:18Adam Buxton?

  In the kitchen.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  You know, ask me to do anything fancy in French, I'd nosedive. I'd be awful.

• 17:22Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, okay. It was, it was, I'm not joking, so delicious and also beautiful. It was very beautifully presented.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you.

• 17:30Adam Buxton?

  Were you, you're not an art school girl, though, are you?

• 17:33Speaker 03

  No. Oh, my God. I'm so bad at drawing. I, so bad that once I was asked to do a painting for a charity, who was going to auction them. This was some years back and they donated mine back to me.

• 17:46Speaker 03

  I don't think anyone's gonna want this. I was so embarrassed because I'd tried to do something figurative, which just looked, it was meant to be sort of this Indian face with the big bindi and the big eyes. And I'm trying to do something flashy with it. And honestly, it looked like someone had had a stroke.

• 18:02Speaker 03

  And I should have gone for something, you know, abstract because no one can judge you on that. I should have just done some splodges on a canvas and gone, this is how I feel when I'm deep in my depression. I don't know why I'm going to judge him for that. And it probably would have sold, but they literally said, take it back. That is how bad I am at art.

• 18:19Adam Buxton?

  Okay. Well, your art, you express yourself through cooking, so.

• 18:24Speaker 03

  I do. I love feeding people.

• 18:25Adam Buxton?

  It's one of the greatest art forms in the world.

• 18:27Speaker 03

  I think you can tell a lot about someone if they like food and how they eat their food. You know, if you see someone that's licking their lips and chucking the oysters down and opening their figs in a saucy manner, you go, mhm. Yep. Yes to you. You like life. You're sensual.

• 18:45Adam Buxton?

  What about if they are tipping the last shards of some crisps down their neck from, from a pack of cheese and onion?

• 18:51Speaker 03

  Do you know, it depends what's available, but that to me shows someone that's getting every last crumb. And you go, you will get every last crumb of life. I like you.

• 18:58Adam Buxton?

  All right, good. Hey, congratulations on writing a memoir. Is that memoir number one?

• 19:05Speaker 03

  Yes, one and only probably. But oh my gosh, I'm nervous. Now, you've been through this.

• 19:09Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, twice.

• 19:11Speaker 03

  It's quite, isn't it a bit, I've written three fiction novels and I of course didn't feel the same about that. But this is like, I'm giving away stuff. I'm putting stuff out there that is out there forever. And that's a bit scary.

• 19:23Adam Buxton?

  Yeah. What was the process? Did you have an editor who worked with you on what to include? Did you have a good sense of what you were comfortable sharing and what you weren't gonna share?

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, I did talk through all of that. I had a great editor. I mean, I knew that I didn't want to write a linear memoir because they can be a little bit predictable, you know. I was born then and then I did this and then that happened and then that happened, which is fine and really perfectly acceptable if you're Barbra Streisand or somebody who's just hugely famous, who's had the most extraordinary life. Well, you know, no to both for me. So I think I had to be judicious about how I structured it and what I would include and ask myself, why is this interesting enough to put down? Because most of your life isn't, at least mine. It's called vigilante, pun intended. Because the aunties are a sort of running theme all the way through. I grew up with this big matriarchal group of women.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  And they are your sort of military police. They're your conscience, they're your guides, and they're also the people that hardest on you. And I used to fear them and then I became one. And now I understand them. And that to me was the arc of womanhood and coming into who I am. And so I thought, well, if I think about it, some of the things they said in my life really stuck with me, changed the course of my life in some way. And I thought, what if I headline each chapter with a phrase that somebody said to me at a time in my life that completely flipped it? It was one of those sliding doors moments. So each chapter starts with one of those phrases. So the chapter about my early childhood is called, Don't Sit With Your Legs Apart,

• 21:00Speaker 03

  which was said to me at regular intervals when I was a little girl because I was such a tomboy. And then the chapter about being a young teenager and going into teenage years was said by an auntie, which is, you can only get fat after you're married. Which to me told me everything about what was expected of me. And so that's how I've tried to structure it. And on the way, I would run stuff past my editor and go, you know, is, is this entertaining enough? Is this insightful enough? That bit isn't, no, take it out then. I want someone to feel at the end of the chapter that they've had a really good chat, a fireside chat, from which maybe they've taken something away that's interesting.

• 21:41Adam Buxton?

  And did you have any times when you thought, because what happened with me was that I thought, hmm.

• 21:49Adam Buxton?

  I've got nothing really, as you said, you know, like no big pivotal moments that everybody's desperate to read about.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:56Adam Buxton?

  So you're sort of just dredging stuff up that you hope will be relatable by.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 22:00Adam Buxton?

  Everybody.

• 22:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 22:01Adam Buxton?

  And I sort of thought, well, people put a premium on all the dark stuff, but I've had quite a nice life. I've been very lucky in all sorts of ways.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Sorry about that, yeah.

• 22:13Adam Buxton?

  So hmm, what terrible things have happened to me. Uh, when was the darkest moment in my life? I sort of started thinking, well, what other relatably dark things about being a father or being a husband or, you know, I could go there.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:28Adam Buxton?

  There've definitely been moments when you stare into the abyss and you think like, oh, I'm terrible. You know, maybe that's worth talking about, but actually I realised the great thing about an editor in those moments was he sort of saved me from myself, really.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:43Adam Buxton?

  And he said, actually, no one wants to read that.

• 22:48Adam Buxton?

  And even if they did, that's not, that's not the kind of audience you want to attract.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:52Adam Buxton?

  You know what I mean? Like, I don't know about you, but they do the thing that I've kind of yearned for throughout my career, which is someone to say, here's what you do well, here's what you're good at.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 23:03Adam Buxton?

  Don't bother with all that other stuff.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:05Adam Buxton?

  You know what I mean? That's the dream. Cause most of the time I find myself just going, I don't know what I'm doing. Is this any good? You know what I mean?

• 23:11Speaker 03

  And often it's an outsider that can see it better than you.

• 23:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 23:14Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah.

• 23:15Adam Buxton?

  Did you get any of that sort of shaping or were you?

• 23:18Speaker 03

  Yes, I mean, they were keen for it to be funny because I suppose that's what a lot of people assume I am. But that didn't stop me putting in the darker stuff and the more thoughtful stuff and the more confessional stuff because I think that's the way that the conversations I have with women go anyway, that one minute you're screaming with laughter and the next you're revealing something quite painful and then everyone dissects it and then you have another glass of wine and then you're laughing again. And I thought, well, that's kind of how most communication is. But I suppose the spine of it was, why would someone pick up this book and find it interesting? Well, I guess someone with my background

• 23:58Speaker 03

  to do what I ended up doing at a time when there was really very few people like me doing it, I think is the spine of something interesting. What was it like in those early days being the only one in the room? What was it like trying to get the stories told that nobody had heard before? What was it like being a chubby little brown girl who wanted to be thin and blonde, you know? All of those things. And then a lot about some of the amazing people I've worked with and what I learnt from them in the theatre and on screen. And very much about my parents as well, their journey, their sacrifices, and then eventually their end. So I started writing the book after I'd been orphaned and it felt like the right time

• 24:38Speaker 03

  to see the overview that, cause that does make you see an overview, doesn't it? When it's just you.

• 24:44Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, definitely. Your mum died a couple of years ago, twenty twenty-three and.

• 24:50Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 24:51Adam Buxton?

  And your dad, when did he go?

• 24:52Speaker 03

  Two thousand and eighteen.

• 24:53Adam Buxton?

  Ah, right. Yeah. So it is like my mum died in twenty twenty and obviously, and that still seems very fresh.

• 25:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:00Adam Buxton?

  And my dad was twenty fifteen. I can't believe that that's over ten years ago.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  I know. Isn't it weird?

• 25:06Adam Buxton?

  Think about him all the time and he's still so alive to me as a figure and in good and bad ways.

• 25:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 25:13Adam Buxton?

  But, but mainly good ways, I think. But I do, yeah, really, I, I think about them a lot. No, I mean, all that stuff obviously is so

• 25:22Adam Buxton?

  relatable. And it was really interesting finding out about where you grew up and how you grew up. I just didn't really know any of that stuff. So you were in Essington.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:32Adam Buxton?

  West Midlands.

• 25:33Speaker 03

  Yes, mate.

• 25:34Adam Buxton?

  Is that what your accent was like back then?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Mate, I'm a complete black country went, I was, you know, I talked like this when I was little.

• 25:40Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 25:41Speaker 03

  And there's actually a vocabulary of its own. There's literally a black country dialogue, which is kind of probably dead now, but older women in the village spoke it all the time. So if you wanna say in black country, stop crying and hold me hand or I'll hit you. You go, stop blating, hold me donny or I'll lamp you.

• 26:01Speaker 03

  You know, it's got its own vocabulary and it's, I think it's gorgeous. It's, it's chewy and it's bold. And I think that was a lot to do with my sass when I was growing up, cause that's what I was surrounded with. But, and what made it even more interesting is that I had two completely different accents. So that was me outside the house and inside the house. It was very much, yes, I've done my homework and I'd like to be a doctor and I'd go, and yes, I'm a good girl. So I had this completely schizophrenic existence that a lot of firstborn kids whose parents have emigrated, you know, that's what you do. You are jugglers. And it's no wonder that a lot of us become creative because we code switch all the time. And that's quite a creative pastime.

• 26:44Adam Buxton?

  But presumably you weren't aware of what you were doing, cause that's just what you grew up with.

• 26:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I grew up with. The masks came on and off effortlessly. And it's a lonely place and it's also a hugely creative place. And it's good when you realise that the good side of the loneliness and feeling like I don't fit in anywhere is actually that that means I can fit anywhere. And also I can all see the bigger picture, cause I didn't quite belong anywhere.

• 27:10Adam Buxton?

  Are you still code switching, Mira?

• 27:12Speaker 03

  All the time. Not with the same ferocity and starkness as the first generation had, of course not. But I hope it gives you a kind of compassion actually for people that don't fit in, because I never did. And we find each other. In our profession, we find so many of us, that you could be in the same village that your grandparents and great grandparents lived in, but there'll be something odd about you. You'll be the one that doesn't quite fit the mould. And we find each other in the arts. I think that's where we congregate because we knew there was something different about us, something more we wanted to say, something more that was out there beyond that limited horizon. And that's why you become creative, I think. So I like being in that tribe.

• 27:55Speaker 03

  I like being the non-conformers and the non-belongers. That's what makes you create, I think.

• 28:02Adam Buxton?

  But you were growing up in the sixties.

• 28:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:05Adam Buxton?

  And seventies.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 28:08Adam Buxton?

  Up in the West Midlands.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:09Adam Buxton?

  Only a few miles from where Enoch Powell delivered the Rivers of Blood speech.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 28:14Adam Buxton?

  Sixty-eight, when you were like six or something.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:18Adam Buxton?

  What did that feel like? When did you become aware of an atmosphere of burgeoning racial tension?

• 28:25Speaker 03

  It's really hard to describe. I think you grow up hyper alert, hyper vigilant, which is an uncomfortable place for a child. You never feel safe. And I do vaguely remember the fallout of Enoch Powell's speech. I was too young to, I'd watch it on the telly, but I have vivid memories of my mum and dad and all their friends really feverishly discussing what was going on and was this the time they now should go? And I'd glance up to the suitcases that always lived on the top of the wardrobe and think, oh, that's why they're there. We've got to be ready. And that hyper vigilance spikes your cortisol all the time. Do you know what I mean? You're just living on that. And then it becomes reality.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  So I was lucky the most and I never got physically attacked. I, our house was, you know, we had NF painted on our house.

• 29:14Adam Buxton?

  Some guy chucked a flick knife at you at one point though.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, that was in the park when I was little. True. I don't know if that's cause he was.

• 29:21Adam Buxton?

  That wasn't racially motivated.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Who knows? It was quite hard to tell.

• 29:25Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  He was a dick anyway.

• 29:27Adam Buxton?

  Yep.

• 29:28Speaker 03

  He was just a dicky boy that did stupid things. And yeah, maybe, who knows? I didn't ask, I was crying. But the name-calling you just got used to, that was just part of it. You learnt not to go in these areas. You learnt to keep your head down. At least that's what my parents' generation did. Our generation were different. Our generation were the ones that actually had to go out there and deal with it in the school, in the street. And so we grew up a little punchy.

• 29:53Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  For survival.

• 29:55Adam Buxton?

  So how many people that looked like you were living in Essington around that time?

• 30:00Speaker 03

  Oh, no. No, we were the only Asians in the village.

• 30:04Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 30:05Speaker 03

  I mean, that was a weird mixed blessing. On the one hand, there was obvious curiosity, some hostility, but that sort of wore off after a while, because in a way we were all at the bottom of this heap together, you know what I mean? It was very working class. It was too up, too down, outside loo. Didn't have a bathroom in the house. You saw baths in front of the fire. It's now sounding like a Monty Python sketch, I'm sorry.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  We had it, but, but I didn't, I didn't feel that at all. I had a sort of, on the one hand, the hyper vigilance, I mean, the odd one out. And then the other one, feral and free and surrounded by nature and never policed. And that's where my little rebel heart grew, you know, all that freedom. And our actual neighbours and villagers, once they got to know us, they were lovely. The problems came from people that came from the outside. The passersby, the kids that used to come and play in the park. Or if I missed the bus, the long walk home through the estate, that's when you went, oh, here we go, here we go, fists out.

• 31:06Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay.

• 31:08Speaker 03

  I think you're meant to be a bit wayward when you're a kid, aren't you?

• 31:11Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, I suppose.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  That's how you test your boundaries. I stole five pounds from my mum's purse when I was ten to buy a David Cassidy t-shirt. But I really, really, really wanted.

• 31:24Speaker 03

  And I knew she'd never say yes. And that was a lot of money, right? So I think 10 seconds after I took it, she knew, but it was all too late. I'd run to the postbox and put the money in the envelope and I'd sent it off. And then my punishment was when it arrived, I had to wear it constantly and it was awful. It was fluorescent pink and it was too tight and David looked like he had mumps and it was like a hair shirt. It was the T-shirt of penitence. That's how she punished me. You wear that until it falls off you.

• 31:51Adam Buxton?

  Did you feel bad at the time when you were taking it out of the purse?

• 31:54Speaker 03

  No, I was, I, I was absolutely swept up in my life of crime. I cared not a jot.

• 32:00Adam Buxton?

  Driven mad by lust.

• 32:01Speaker 03

  By for David Cassidy.

• 32:03Adam Buxton?

  For Cassidy.

• 32:03Speaker 03

  And this was my passport to acceptance. Then I'd be like all the other cool girls. I'd have David Cassidy blazing across my chest.

• 32:09Adam Buxton?

  I think I love you, so what am I so afraid of? I'm afraid that. Yeah, that's a good song.

• 32:15Speaker 03

  He had some good tunes, right? Cherish, that was a good tune.

• 32:18Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 32:18Speaker 03

  How can I be sure? Come on, that's a great tune.

• 32:20Adam Buxton?

  How does that one go?

• 32:21Speaker 03

  How can I be sure in a world that's constantly changing? How can I be sure where I stand with you?

• 32:31Adam Buxton?

  I think I love you. That's the only one I know.

• 32:35Speaker 03

  That's the Partridge Family. Actually, Dusty Springfield has done a beautiful version of How Can I Be Sure?

• 32:39Adam Buxton?

  Uh huh.

• 32:40Speaker 03

  You might prefer that one.

• 32:41Adam Buxton?

  But Cassidy was in the Partridge Family though, right?

• 32:43Speaker 03

  Yes. Oh my gosh. She used to run home to see that.

• 32:46Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  But anyway, yes.

• 32:47Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, that was it for crime and.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  Crime.

• 32:50Adam Buxton?

  Mirror.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  I did the time, did the crime and I did the time.

• 32:53Adam Buxton?

  But now you are a dame of the British Empire.

• 32:56Speaker 03

  Wow, how ironic.

• 32:57Adam Buxton?

  And also a commander of the British Empire. I mean, you are, I think, the most decorated guest I have ever had on this podcast. And that beats also Sir Paul McCartney.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Oh my God. Well, that's just wrong. That's just wrong.

• 33:11Adam Buxton?

  He got his MBE in 1965. He held on to his. John Lennon gave his back.

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Right, I remember that. Yes.

• 33:17Adam Buxton?

  Paul was knighted in 1997 and he's got the CH. Do you know that one?

• 33:24Speaker 03

  I don't. Go on, what's that?

• 33:25Adam Buxton?

  That's the Companion's Honour.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 33:27Adam Buxton?

  Order of the Companion's Honour. There's only 65 at any one time in the whole Commonwealth.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  He totally deserves it.

• 33:33Adam Buxton?

  Sure, I'm not saying that. He doesn't. I'm just saying he's got that. J K Rowling's got one, David Attenborough's got one, David Hockney's got one, Kazuo Ishiguro's got one, George Osborne's got one. How did he get one?

• 33:45Speaker 03

  I'm not sure about that.

• 33:47Adam Buxton?

  Anyway, Dame Maggie Smith had one when she died. It was split between Ant and Dec.

• 33:53Adam Buxton?

  And then it goes to Robert, Robert Sheringham.

• 33:58Adam Buxton?

  But do you get like, was there, I watched your episode of Who Do You Think You Are?

• 34:04Speaker 03

  Oh, yes.

• 34:05Adam Buxton?

  Which is really great.

• 34:06Speaker 03

  Oh my God. I, what a great programme that is. I was in the very first series, so it was a bit of an experiment, but my goodness. Their team, their research team is something else.

• 34:15Adam Buxton?

  When was that that you did? Was it 2004?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Yes. And they found out loads about my family, even I didn't know, but that just, that whole idea of legacy, I think is so important. You know, if we actually looked back at what our journeys are and what brought us here, we might be a little more forgiving of peoples whose journeys are just starting, you know, in a new country. We might just be a little more understanding if we dug further back. I mean, I, when I learnt history in school, I had no idea. When we were talking about the Industrial Revolution and how Britain was just, you know, led the world. I had no idea all of that wealth came from colonised nations. I just didn't know. I didn't know that that process is what caused my parents to emigrate. Because in 1947, when independence came, the country was stripped. It's been asset stripped.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  And so you go, oh, that's why. When people used to say, why don't you go back to where you come from? You go, now let me tell you, let me just give you a little potty to, oh, no, you're gonna hit me. Okay, fine, you can save that. But I mean, those basic facts like that just might make us see things a little bit differently.

• 35:19Adam Buxton?

  But did you, when you were garlanded with awards from the empire,

• 35:26Adam Buxton?

  was there a conversation that you had with your friends and your family about it?

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Oh my God, yes.

• 35:31Adam Buxton?

  How did that go?

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Huge. Yeah, well, ironically, the year 97 that I got offered an MBE was the same year that I'd taken my father back to the house he fled in 1947 for partition, for a Radio 4 programme. And partition of India happened in 47 with independence. So independence is always twinned with this also tragic event, which is biggest mass displacement of people still in the 20th century, six, seven million, a million dead. That's just official. Huge. It was catastrophic and huge and hastily done. And my father ended up on the wrong side of the border because they were Hindus in a now designated Muslim homeland. And I'd taken him back to the place he fled. I, you know, heard him

• 36:17Speaker 03

  oh, tell these awful stories about what he saw as a 13 year old boy, which really marked the end of his childhood and the beginning of lifelong unresolved trauma, as it did for many people. And then that same year, you go, do you want to be a member of the British Empire? It's like, do you know what the empire did? So yes, it was a conflicted position. But the thing that changed my view of it was actually my parents' reactions to it. And for them, and not everyone will understand or agree with this, it was some kind of validation of the suffering they'd gone through and the journey they'd taken.

• 36:56Speaker 03

  And a sort of marker that history doesn't have to repeat itself, that it can be rewritten, was how they thought about it.

• 37:06Adam Buxton?

  And they said, one day there will be an Indian Prime Minister for a very short period of time.

• 37:13Speaker 03

  Do you know what, Howard? They have known that, but yes, that's another marker too, whatever your politics.

• 37:18Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, well, of course. I mean, it's a big deal. You write really nicely about it. In the end, my parents decided for me, Papa repeated the story of being a little boy with his face pressed up against the railings, watching the British officers waltz with their wives. One generation on the fences are gone and we dance on the same ground to our own tune.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Yep. That was about the size of it. So yeah, interesting decision.

• 37:45Speaker 03

  But one that made them very, very, very happy.

• 37:47Adam Buxton?

  Did you go to dinner parties where you had drunken discussions about it and people gave you a hard time?

• 37:53Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, there was a whole range, a whole range of opinions about it. And I totally respect the people that don't want empire on their medal and maybe we should look at renaming it.

• 38:04Adam Buxton?

  You make the point that it has negative Star Wars connotations as well, which they should consider.

• 38:11Speaker 03

  The Empire Strikes Back Medal is definitely got a ring to it. But yeah, but it's such a personal decision and I wouldn't dream of lecturing anyone else about it. I think you should respect whatever decision that takes you to.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  I took a trip down the river of time. I took a trip, took a trip down the river of time. I packed some things for my trip down the river of time. I packed some things for my trip down the river of time. I took a camping chair and a fancy camera so I could sit and take pictures from my chair of the river of time, of the river of time, time, time, time. I also made sure I had my laptop there so I could use my photo manipulation software and tweak the river of time, time, time, time.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Oh, the river of time. Do be do, the river of time. Ooh la la la, it's long and covered in slime. Ooh wee ooh, the river of time.

• 39:23Adam Buxton?

  I didn't realise that the title of Goodness Gracious Me, the sketch show.

• 39:27Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:27Adam Buxton?

  Came from the Peter Sellers song.

• 39:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 39:30Adam Buxton?

  With Sophia Loren.

• 39:31Speaker 03

  It absolutely did. Because that was what came into a lot of people's heads when you thought about an Asian comedy character. It was Peter Sellers playing the Indian doctor in The Millionaires.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  And you can't help but then sing.

• 39:52Adam Buxton?

  Well, goodness gracious me. That was 1960.

• 39:55Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 39:56Adam Buxton?

  That was a big hit.

• 39:57Speaker 03

  It was a huge hit, of course. And you know, Sellers is a very fine actor. We kind of all loved him and loved his work, so it was very conflicting. It was really sort of do the reclaiming bit like, all right, you thought we were like this, but actually we're a bit more like this.

• 40:12Adam Buxton?

  You know, George Martin produced Goodness Gracious Me.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  Did he?

• 40:15Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, George Martin, before he was working with the Beatles, George Martin was working with Peter Sellers and did comedy records.

• 40:22Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:23Adam Buxton?

  And one of them was Goodness Gracious Me.

• 40:24Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:25Adam Buxton?

  And then the, the follow up, which was Bangers and Mash.

• 40:28Speaker 03

  Who sang that?

• 40:29Adam Buxton?

  Well, that was again, Peter Sellers and Sophia Loren, who did a whole album.

• 40:33Speaker 03

  Of comedy songs?

• 40:34Adam Buxton?

  Of comedy songs.

• 40:34Speaker 03

  Why has no one told me this?

• 40:36Adam Buxton?

  Off the back of the success of Goodness Gracious Me. And one of them was Bangers and Mash where he's more accents, this time it's Cockney. But he also does Italian. And the premise of the song is that he's a guy who met an Italian woman during the war.

• 40:52Speaker 03

  Right.

• 40:52Adam Buxton?

  And now they're married and living back in the UK. And she makes him pasta and, you know, vermicelli and minestrone and he wants bangs and mash.

• 41:03Speaker 03

  Oh, cultural clash right there, you see.

• 41:06Adam Buxton?

  That's what's going on there.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  It's a song about racial harmony.

• 41:10Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 41:11Speaker 03

  Oh, that sounds brilliant. And of course, Sellers could do every accent going, couldn't he? So.

• 41:15Adam Buxton?

  Yes, and that was, you know, I was gonna say, that's when. No one particularly thought that it was a bad thing to do an accent like that. But of course, that was still the case a long time after that. You know, I'm thinking about The Simpsons.

• 41:31Speaker 03

  Oh, and Apu, the whole Apu thing.

• 41:33Adam Buxton?

  So The Simpsons is like mid nineties, early nineties even.

• 41:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:37Adam Buxton?

  Do I remember it rightly that it felt a bit edgy that there was this character Apu in there? And he had the accent and it felt like, oh, I didn't think you were supposed to do that accent anymore. Was that, am I misremembering that or?

• 41:50Speaker 03

  No, that, that, there was certainly that. I think you probably didn't pick it up early on, but. You know, as times changed and people became more aware, it became to feel more and more anachronistic, I guess. I think the really sad thing is though, that they just cancelled the character.

• 42:06Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Why didn't they just have a South Asian actor voice him and keep what was a really funny character in?

• 42:13Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:13Speaker 03

  I think that was like, you know.

• 42:15Adam Buxton?

  Did you ever watch that documentary, The Problem with Apu?

• 42:19Speaker 03

  Do you know what? I haven't and I should.

• 42:21Adam Buxton?

  A guy called Hari Kondabolu.

• 42:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:24Adam Buxton?

  Twenty seventeen, so it was around the time that a lot of these conversations were really picking up momentum.

• 42:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:30Adam Buxton?

  And I read an interview with him. A year or so after the documentary had come out and he had just had a terrible year with. Everyone coming at him so angrily, most of whom hadn't seen the doc.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Okay, saying, why did you get Apu cancelled?

• 42:45Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, you killed Apu and you've got no sense of humour and it's PC gone mad.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:50Adam Buxton?

  And the whole, you know, the thrust of the doc was that.

• 42:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:53Adam Buxton?

  Apu was sort of legitimising a lot of. Microaggressions and not so microaggressions towards South Asian people. And then. I read this thing with Hank Azaria, who was the white actor who did the voice. And yeah, after the furor around the doc, they sort of phased Apu out. He's still part of the Springfield.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 43:17Adam Buxton?

  Universe.

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:18Adam Buxton?

  But he just doesn't speak. He doesn't have speaking lines.

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:21Adam Buxton?

  So I guess maybe because they thought, oh, well, because Hank Azaria's voice was so good and we can't just. Get another actor in to do it, it would be too.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  Or maybe they thought it was pandering to a set of stereotypes. I don't know, but that's the problems with, you know, if it's satire, then everyone's gonna get. Taken the piss out of, aren't they? If everyone is the same in the same universe, I don't have a problem with that. But then give that great job. To a really talented actor that can do it and keep the fun going, you know. That's the point of satire. And goodness gracious me, we satirised ourselves as much as we satirised the English, in fact, probably more. But I think that's the great sign of self-confidence of a community when you can laugh at yourselves.

• 44:03Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  That's actually healthy, but it's just important that you have the opportunity. To hold the power of that punchline yourself. This, that's the thing.

• 44:16Adam Buxton?

  Mm hmm. Hank Azaria said, quite recently, actually, on a podcast in twenty twenty five. The Pablo Torres Finds Out podcast.

• 44:24Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 44:25Adam Buxton?

  He said that what changed his mind back then in twenty eighteen. When they were talking about what to do with Apu, he said, when hate crimes were perpetrated against South Asian people, a lot of times. They were just called Apu. It became a slur.

• 44:43Speaker 03

  Oh, gosh, I didn't know that.

• 44:44Adam Buxton?

  When convenience store guys were stabbed or shot or robbed, you know.

• 44:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:48Adam Buxton?

  And that means it got away from us. Something got away. Of course, we didn't mean it that way. And we were not to blame for people turning it into that kind of hate, but we did tee it up.

• 44:58Speaker 03

  Do you know, that reminds me of the argument about Till Death Is Due Part all those years ago.

• 45:02Adam Buxton?

  Right, okay.

• 45:03Speaker 03

  Remember the Alf Garnett, Warren Mitchell played Alf Garnett? This sort of, you know, rabid, right wing, middle aged, white guy with his long suffering wife and his daughter and socialist son in law. And when he was written, the writer. Johnny Spate said Alf Garnett was written as a figure of fun. He was based on my dad, you know, he was a bit racist. He did hate socialists. He did go on rants. We found him really funny. And he was funny. The problem was, he was written as a figure of satire and for someone to make fun of, but if you give the devil the best lines.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Those are the ones people remember. So Alf's long monologues about get all the darkies out were what. We had to put up with in the playground the next day. Nobody was actually repeating. The brilliantly witty responses from his socialist son in law, because Alf was the best character. And so you're treading that really fine line about, I wrote this as a satire and somehow he's become a hero. And if there's a million other programmes on that are giving you shades of that discussion, that's fine as well. Alf can exist in that universe because you've got that programme and that programme and that programme. But when it's the only one.

• 46:18Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 46:18Speaker 03

  Then it becomes an issue because then it becomes representative, I suppose. Anyone that writes and anyone particularly that does comedy always struggles with, you know, what are you allowed to laugh at? It's all about context. And often when we have these arguments, we don't have the context along with it. I'm not for censorship. I am passionately for free speech, but I'm also for contextualising. Where that joke sits.

• 46:44Adam Buxton?

  And it being part of the job of coming up with a character like that to consider how it's gonna land and, and. What people will make of it. Like, that's not to say that, because obviously you wanna be free from. Too much anxiety about how the audience is gonna take it in some ways, but then in other ways, if the stakes are high. Then you kind of do have to think about that, don't you?

• 47:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, you do. And. I think that's the benefit of when you've got a writer that's writing from. Felt experience and truth rather than assumed observation. I think that makes a world of difference. That's why goodness gracious me landed. I mean, we royally took the piss out of all kinds of aspects of our culture, but it came from. A good place. It came from a lived experience and wanting to share that experience. And reaching out to people and going, we have a sense of humour too. And there is stuff that we all find funny. And if you don't get the Punjabi bits, go and ask one of your friends. It might even make you find a Punjabi friend. Go ask them. But that spirit of inviting in and going, come and laugh not at us but with us is healthy.

• 47:51Speaker 03

  I think. And that's why I think the show worked. And all of that stuff came from our truth, you know, we weren't trying to. Teach white people about brown people. We wanted it to be funny, but we also said, this is the authenticity of our experience. Come and have a laugh with us.

• 48:07Adam Buxton?

  And that's nineteen ninety eight, first series of Goodness Gracious Me.

• 48:10Speaker 03

  Something like that.

• 48:11Adam Buxton?

  At a time when a lot of British comedy was quite self consciously being edgy and laddy and. How did that time feel for you? Do you remember?

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Well, it seemed to fit in pretty well because it was also the explosion of sketch comedy. And Broken Comedy, as it's called now, of course. So we were one of many, many sketch shows. I just think it was the vibe that people wanted. Ironically, nobody wants a sketch show right now. It seems to have fallen right out of fashion, but then it was. And I think it fitted that kind of mad, chaotic, creative time at the late nineties when it was called Britannia and where. We were bursting with new stuff and pushing boundaries and. Ladism was one of those things and I hated it, as a lot of people did, but it felt like that was just part of, let's just throw it at the canvas and see if it sticks. So we were part of that wave of experimentation, which is pretty exciting to be in that mix.

• 49:05Adam Buxton?

  Did you feel like we're in the right place at the right time here?

• 49:08Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 49:08Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 49:09Speaker 03

  I so much about timing though, don't you think? Like everything in life, but your career particularly so much. We were part of this wave of experimentation. We just hit it at the right time. It's not like there weren't other people doing comedy like us. Tom Allen Centre, Stratford East, Waterman Centre, we're all hosting, you know, very successful. South Asian comedy nights, but very much it was like our subculture, our hidden culture. Nobody discovered it other than us yet. So we just hit that at the right time.

• 49:38Adam Buxton?

  So did the BBC get it? Did they, or was it a lot of back and forth with them about how it was gonna work?

• 49:44Speaker 03

  Oh man, it took ages to get on.

• 49:46Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  Ages, ages, right from a hastily thrown together. Show at the Riverside Studios, literally put together in a week with whatever existing material we had to show to John Plowman to. Cause he, you know, quite rightly went, well, I don't know what you mean. What is that? So I'm not sure. Why don't you just come along and see what we're doing? And to his credit, even though. He probably didn't get it. He could see that other people did and there was something. But from that first Riverside mad show to us actually getting on telly was a good two, three years.

• 50:20Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  Of one pilot after another, first a radio pilot and then a radio series and then a TV pilot and then finally the series. So there's a lot of hoops.

• 50:29Adam Buxton?

  Right. And was that a frustrating process? Or did you just think, okay, well, we're getting there?

• 50:35Speaker 03

  It was, but it was also, well, we're trying to sell something a bit new here, a bit unheard of. The point at which the BBC began to take it seriously, I think, is when we took over from weekending. They took over the weekending slot for the summer, which was the graveyard slot. That's why weekending had the summer off. And suddenly our little four episodes we did became this kind of sleeper hit.

• 50:57Adam Buxton?

  Weekending was the radio satire show.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, on a Friday night.

• 51:01Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 03

  And that's when I think people went, hang on a minute, no Asians are listening to Radio Four on Friday night. This means Middle England got it. And if Middle England got it, then it's got legs. But yes, a long process.

• 51:15Adam Buxton?

  But then suddenly it stopped. Did it stop at the right time? You only did how many series of Goodness Gracious Me?

• 51:22Speaker 03

  Three.

• 51:23Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  It felt a bit premature, can't lie to you. It really came out of the blue. I think our producer went in to see the commissioner thinking. Well, we'll talk about the next series because it had been such a huge success and we, you know, won awards and we'd done a tour and it was just. You know, we were cooking. And for some reason, they just went, now I think we've done that, which was, who knows why these decisions are made. The ironic thing is, we have now done more comeback specials than we actually did series. So I think they might have realised they made a mistake.

• 51:56Adam Buxton?

  But then you moved quite quickly to the Kumars.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, people think quickly. I mean, it was Sanjeev's idea and he was pitching it while Goodness Gracious Me was on, but. You would think with the visibility that gave us, he'd find it easy, but that took a few years too.

• 52:13Adam Buxton?

  That was a good, high concept show.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Oh, brilliant.

• 52:15Adam Buxton?

  Quite a mad idea. Had anyone else done that sort of thing with like a?

• 52:19Speaker 03

  No, I suppose we'd had the sort of, we had the Gary Shandlings and the Mrs Merton and I guess.

• 52:24Adam Buxton?

  Mrs Merton, I suppose, is similar, yes, but.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  To a certain extent, but certainly never a Punjabi family, no.

• 52:31Adam Buxton?

  And Partridge, of course, yes, you're right. Yeah, yeah, no, that's right with the. Yeah, because that's a big ask for the guests as well. Isn't it like knowing how to play it?

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Well, that was the joy of it. They didn't. I mean, that was the whole point. I don't know if Sanjeev said this when he was on your show, but it was totally from him taking a girlfriend home and his father. Asking really inappropriate questions like, how much does your father earn? And his mother saying, be gentle with him. He doesn't take rejection well. And Sanj said, I wonder if I bought a famous friend home, how my parents would be. Oh, they'd be exactly the same. And that's where the collision, this beautiful collision came because, you know, Punjabi families are notoriously hospitable. They'll kill you with love and kindness and feeding. And why wouldn't they be thrilled to have Hugh Jackman or. Patrick Stewart or Tom Jones in their living room, but they would still ask them to unblock the guest loo.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  If it arose, which it did. And I think that's why guests really used to love coming on because they couldn't do their pre rehearsed. Puff chat for whatever project they were doing next. They had to be completely open to the silliness and the spontaneity of it. And I think that's why a lot of actors really enjoyed coming on.

• 53:42Adam Buxton?

  And grandma sitting with her legs open.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  Well, there you go. That's how I got my revenge after being told all my childhood to shut your legs. Nope, she's an old woman. She's gonna do what she wants.

• 53:53Adam Buxton?

  Do you remember anyone coming on and struggling a bit to find how to play it?

• 53:59Speaker 03

  Yes, there certainly were people that got a bit overwhelmed and just went very quiet.

• 54:04Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 03

  Or got drunk. I can't tell you who that was, a couple. But if we saw that happening, we'd pull out all the stops to be as sweet and as kind and as loving and as encouraging. Because we just wanted people to just have a nice time.

• 54:18Adam Buxton?

  Right.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  So we would then revert to the ego massage questions and things that will be easy to talk about. Get them on to gardening, because you know you love that. Get them on to that. Anything to make them feel comfortable.

• 54:29Adam Buxton?

  How was Chevy Chase?

• 54:30Speaker 03

  Do you know, he was a delight, but we had been, we'd had their heads off. It could be difficult.

• 54:36Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 03

  But, you know, professional and of course thrives in that SNL kind of chaos. So he came up with the goods.

• 54:44Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  I don't think he finds that kind of thing difficult.

• 54:48Adam Buxton?

  He's another one with a good documentary.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:51Adam Buxton?

  That's worth seeing.

• 54:52Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 54:52Adam Buxton?

  He's a more complicated character, but also it seems kind of a little bit misunderstood. Not to say that he hasn't done some fairly. Weird things over the years and behaved in quite a mad way occasionally.

• 55:04Speaker 03

  People are complicated.

• 55:05Adam Buxton?

  They are. I think especially in showbiz because it's such a mad thing really that you're doing.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, pretending to be someone else.

• 55:13Adam Buxton?

  Pretending to be someone else, kind of managing how you come across in some ways and then. Stumbling across a version of yourself that suddenly everyone responds to and you think, oh, that isn't actually me, but. Now I'm kind of invested in it being me and.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, and you know, pile that in with social media and that's a.

• 55:33Adam Buxton?

  Yes.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  Bit of a pressure cooker, isn't it?

• 55:36Adam Buxton?

  Don't get me started. Well, or if you do want to get me started. Are you on social media?

• 55:41Speaker 03

  I'm on one thing, Instagram. I wasn't on any, not even Facebook. And then when my last book came out, my publishers almost fainted when I said, I'm not on anywhere. And they said, you've got to be on one, just be on one.

• 55:52Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, they don't like it.

• 55:53Speaker 03

  I was on Twitter a long time ago, but like everybody else, you know, left. So I'm on that.

• 55:58Adam Buxton?

  Well, they always used to say, oh, do Instagram. It's so nice. Everyone's nice there. Is it still like that? It feels like there's quite a lot of spicy back and forth in the comments after you post a picture.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Yes, I think there are some spicy. I spotted one today completely randomly with somebody who I've never heard of. I was fifty three followers going, she's horrible in real life.

• 56:17Adam Buxton?

  About you?

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, oh, what did I do to upset that? That was my first thought. Oh, was it someone I bumped into in the shops or? It's a paparazzi person, but nobody had heard of. Did I say no to a picture when they read? Anyway, you scroll through and then you go, do you know what? Have a nice day and I'm sorry.

• 56:38Adam Buxton?

  Yeah.

• 56:39Speaker 03

  You caught me on a bad day.

• 56:40Adam Buxton?

  So there's no part of you that considers getting in touch with them, engaging.

• 56:45Speaker 03

  No, that's just nuts, isn't it? That, no. You don't do that. You don't know what kind of worms you're opening. You don't know what kind of day they're having or why they, no. The thing is, a fact of life is, especially if you're a bit known, you walk into any space. And a third of the people are not gonna like you for no reason whatsoever. Other than I don't like her face or I don't like the way she comes across or look at that stupid nose of hers or whatever it is. Do you know what I mean? They're just not gonna like you and they don't know you. And that's that. And then there's gonna be a third that go, I love her, I love what she does, you know, he's lovely and they don't know you either. And then there might be a few people that will just go, well, I don't know you, but I might get to know you and then I'll make a judgement.

• 57:30Speaker 03

  You can't control any of that, any of it. So all I try and give out is the old hippie thing like. I'm gonna see the good in people and think people are good until they prove otherwise. I motor on in that deluded world of mine.

• 57:49Speaker 03

  And that's all right.

• 58:22Adam Buxton?

  I'm just going to use the loo and grab some water. Are you okay?

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, I'm good. Thank you, darling.

• 58:27Adam Buxton?

  Feel free to fill, sing, uh, tell indiscreet anecdotes.

• 58:33Speaker 03

  What, is it still, is it still on?

• 58:35Adam Buxton?

  Still rolling.

• 58:35Speaker 03

  Oh, my god. Adam's left the room and I could do anything I want right now. I could play the guitar that's on the sofa. I can peek at his notes. I could actually raid his fridge. I could put a fake poo on his chair, so he might think he's shat himself without knowing. Write in and tell me which one you would prefer. Maybe I should steal five pounds out of his wallet and buy another T-shirt, one that fits this time. I think he's doing a number two because that's quite a long gap.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Oh no, the floss is gone. A long number one. It is hot. He's probably been drinking a lot. It's important to stay hydrated, folks, and sunscreen, two things. In the heatwave, very important. Let's not tell him. I talked to you behind his back. Hi.

• 59:34Adam Buxton?

  Hello.

• 59:35Speaker 03

  Are you hydrated?

• 59:36Adam Buxton?

  Yes, thank you.

• 59:37Speaker 03

  Yes, me too. I'm having a bit more.

• 59:39Adam Buxton?

  You're looking very youthful, if I may say.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  Well, that'll be the plastic surgery.

• 59:45Adam Buxton?

  Have you, have you ever had any?

• 59:46Speaker 03

  No, I haven't, but I'm just, you know, slathering on the moisturising cream and doing yoga face exercises and like that.

• 59:54Adam Buxton?

  Okay.

• 59:54Speaker 03

  Can you see the face I'm making?

• 59:56Adam Buxton?

  Yeah, like a raptor, velociraptor face. Does that work?

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  Oh, well, I'm hoping.

• 1:00:01Adam Buxton?

  Look, I can give you this gift that I've been saving for, for exactly this moment, although I didn't buy it necessarily for any specific person. I bought it a few years ago when my face was beginning to sag in a way that was distressing.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:00:17Adam Buxton?

  And I found it online and I saw an advert for it pop up online.

• 1:00:22Speaker 03

  What is it? I'm intrigued.

• 1:00:23Adam Buxton?

  I'm gonna advertise it right now.

• 1:00:25Speaker 03

  The jaw.

• 1:00:26Adam Buxton?

  It's called the Jawzerciser.

• 1:00:28Speaker 03

  Oh, I love it already.

• 1:00:30Adam Buxton?

  Tone, tighten, strengthen your face and neck. And it's basically a block of rubber.

• 1:00:36Speaker 03

  Right, yeah, thank you very much.

• 1:00:38Adam Buxton?

  On a lanyard so that you can just carry it around with you anytime. And the first time you use it, you can bite into these gum. Bits that will mould onto a specific shape of your teeth.

• 1:00:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:00:51Adam Buxton?

  So that you will be able to bite into the rubber with extra efficiency.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  So what do you do? Do you just bite it?

• 1:01:01Adam Buxton?

  You're chewing on it and it's a load of resistance. Anyway, I tried it and I.

• 1:01:06Speaker 03

  You didn't like it?

• 1:01:06Adam Buxton?

  Way too much work.

• 1:01:09Speaker 03

  Thank you. That's the nicest thing anyone's ever given me.

• 1:01:12Adam Buxton?

  Well, you're welcome. I'm so glad it's found a home.

• 1:01:14Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:15Adam Buxton?

  And I will tell you, because I thought this is gonna change my life. This is gonna be my main thing. It didn't change my life, but I was so certain that it would, that I bought two at the same time.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  I do that.

• 1:01:24Adam Buxton?

  They were really expensive.

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm sorry. Are you sure you don't wanna give this to some?

• 1:01:28Adam Buxton?

  It's the least I can do. I was thinking, I wish I could think of a good present for Mira.

• 1:01:31Speaker 03

  Size. I'm very excited. It's sort of like a therapeutic dummy.

• 1:01:37Adam Buxton?

  Let me just check that it hasn't turned out to be incredibly.

• 1:01:41Speaker 03

  Harmful.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  I don't think it's killed anyone. Listen, I'll try it. Anyway, there you go. Yeah, thank you. I'll report back on this one. Not that you need it, by the way. Everyone needs a little bit of help. Did your aunties pass on nuggets of wisdom about the aging process? Oh, yes. There's so many homemade remedies that actually work. Because, you know, if you grow up in a sort of rural culture, village culture, you haven't got access to pharmacists and things like that. So you just might do with, you know, kitchen pantry things often. So, you know, you can make a really good face mask with turmeric and gram flour and a bit of oil. And that can naturally exfoliate and lighten your skin. There's loads of things like that you can do.

• 1:02:27Speaker 03

  How about philosophically, your temperament as far as aging and mortality goes? Do you feel like you are armed with some good wisdom in that department? Yes, I think I am finally. I think when you've gone through the death of parents, then I think that does reframe so many things about mortality. And I suppose it helped that I, you know, come from a background where people are a lot more open about talking about death, actually. If you're a Hindu, you believe it's just part of a karmic recycle anyway, and that this isn't the end.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  Some people absolutely think it is. We have many friends that are atheists and are very happy with, you know, no, you're dead, you're dead, and that's that. Are you more in the Hindu department? I do believe we return to something. Yeah. We're all made of energy and that energy can't be destroyed, so it goes somewhere. I do believe that. Where it goes, I don't know. There's so many different paths. Dermot O'Leary. That's where it goes. It all goes back to Dermot O'Leary. Yeah. He's hogging all the karmic energy. My gosh, that's why he's so fucking cheerful all the time. And I actually went to a death cafe. Have you heard of them? No. They're actually quite fascinating places. No, it's good. And I'll tell you why. They are held quite regularly all over the country.

• 1:03:49Speaker 03

  And all people do is you go in and you talk about any aspect of death you want. And when I went, I was on a table with a mixture of people that were dying, that had lost someone recently, and some people who were nowhere near death, but just thought it was time we talked about it. And it demystifies the process and you get given an egg timer. And every person on the table is allowed to talk for five minutes with no interruption about anything they want to do with death. And then you meet up in the circle after and you just say what you got out of it. It's very cleansing, because I think the problem is that we all live as if we're never going to die. And it's the one thing that is going to happen to all of us.

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  And the denial and the fear that that engenders is what stops you living your life the way you should live it. And you realise that when you talk to someone who knows they're dying, who then sees all the beauty in the world because they know it's finite. And the trick is, why don't we all live like that all the time? What made you go in the first place? My grief, my grief about my mum particularly, because of the way she died and how sad it was and, and difficult. I was with both my parents when they died, but mum's death was particularly difficult because it was drawn out. So I was carrying around a lot and it was really helpful.

• 1:05:08Speaker 03

  And then I got into a lot more reading. I mean, Elizabeth Kübler-Ross obviously has done one of the sort of great books, one of the classic books about that process, but. Five stages of grief. Exactly. Anger, denial. Yeah. Uh, what were the other ones? Booking Holiday to Ibiza. Yeah, memoir. That's the last one. Yeah, memoir, yeah. But in the course of also having two aged parents, one of whom had a debilitating disease, you meet a lot of carers and you meet a lot of end of life carers. And actually, they all have the same story that, you know, the privilege of seeing someone out. But also the blindness that we all have in our everyday lives, that why do we only appreciate what we have when we know it's about to go?

• 1:05:51Speaker 03

  All those bucket list wishes, all those things you wish you'd said. So I think actually being accepting of your own mortality and knowing we're all finite makes you live your life better as a result. If you can get over that fear. So I hope I have a good death, whenever it may be. I hope that I am accepting and I hope that I've made the most of the time I have left. Who recommended the caf? How did you find out about the death cafe? Um, a friend of mine that had gone before and knew it was the kind of thing that might be useful. And I met someone there and it's, you know, who I thought, why are you doing here? You're someone I used to play netball with in East London. And it turns out she'd lost a daughter at eighteen. Hmm.

• 1:06:35Speaker 03

  And she was now a death cafe volunteer. And that's how it was helping her get through. And that's the thing, you know, you meet someone like that, what do you get the moment you meet someone who's been through that? And you get perspective. You go, what are all of the things I worry about in my life compared to this? The worst thing that can happen to anyone, I think. Mm hmm. So those kind of things just are anchors to remind you of what you do have. And that for the, whatever time we do have, don't waste it, spread kindness, be grateful. Enjoy the simple things like the sun on that beautiful tree over there. I mean, I do sound like a vacan old hippie, but actually that's who I am.

• 1:07:19Speaker 03

  That's what I was brought up with and I denied all of that for a long time and it made me miserable. And now I find that the way forward for this next stage of life is absolutely what I want to take with me in my work, in my life, in the relationships I have. Plus a jawser sizer. Plus the jawser size. Can you please do a song about it? You did, I want to ditty at the end of this podcast about the jawser size. Well, only if they pay me. I mean, I can't just do a free advert for jawser size. What if it turns out that they like funded Trump's campaign or something or? Could you just do a little song about? Sure, I'll try. About strengthening your jaw? Strengthening your jaw. I will try and do. Made me so happy. I'll do a jawser, jawser jingle.

• 1:08:05Speaker 03

  I'll try. Speaking of music, though. Yes. You're a good singer. Oh, thanks, Mace. I love singing. Yeah, you've had a number one. I mean, you've been technically in a number one. I think that's a better description. Thank you. With Gareth Gates. With Gareth Gates. Doing Spirit in the Sky. Karmic relief single in which I cartwheeled as an old lady. It was a moment. It was a moment, but my God, would I love to have a proper number one. They don't do that anymore, though, was it it? Most downloaded, most streamed song, isn't that? Yeah. Do you write music? No, I wrote a lot of the songs for Goodness Gracious Me. I really enjoyed that, but I don't read music. So thank God we have software now, so anyone can compose whatever they want. But in Lem days, I'd have to sing the tune to Nitin Sorni, who was, you know.

• 1:08:50Speaker 03

  That's right. I met Nitin Sorni the other day. Yeah. And I had totally forgotten that he was a sort of, well, it was him and Sanjeet would do comedy stuff together. Yeah, yeah. So Nitin was part of our original Goodness Gracious Me crew, but then he went off and did music. I mean, I hope he survived. I hope he's doing all right. Mercury Prize winning. Yeah, right. I mean. Trendy artist, no less. Superstar and a beautiful human, but I would have to sing the tune. I can play guitar weirdly, but I can do chord based, but I can't read music and I don't know how to write a stable, whatever. So my love of music is purely instinctual and loving singing and. What's your go to karaoke? Oh, that's really hard. See, I love Joni. I love Joni Mitchell. I'm an absolute Joni Mitchell freak.

• 1:09:34Speaker 03

  But the problem with Joni is that you end up trying to sing like Joni because she's so distinctive. And unless you've got that four octave range, then you know, it's going to sound shit, isn't it? Oh, I go for something like The First Cut is the Deepest, but there's Soulie version, not the Roger Trapp version. Love a bit of karaoke. Singing's so joyful. There's no filter. It's your soul, right? Have you ever been part of a choir? Yes, I grew up singing in the church choir in the village. That's where my love of singing started. I probably know more hymns than you, mate. Oh, really? And the descants. Okay. Test me now. Test me on a carol and I will know the descant. Um, what about Good King Wenceslas? Oh, that's a hard one. Immediately busted.

• 1:10:21Speaker 03

  Why don't you say Silent Night? Say Silent Night. How about Silent Night? Yes, I know the, I know, I know the descant for that. I know. Silent night, holy night. All is calm, all is bright. Round yon virgin mother and child. Holy infant so tender and mild. Sleep in heavenly peace.

• 1:11:05Speaker 03

  Sleep in heavenly peace. Well, at least one of us could sing.

• 1:11:20Speaker 03

  Yes, I love a choir. Singing's so good for you. I'm going to get the autotune out and fix that.

• 1:11:33Adam Buxton?

  Wait. This is an ad for Squarespace.

• 1:11:37Adam Buxton?

  Okay, we'll return to the AI apocalypse in just a wee wee moment, but first I wanted to talk about Squarespace. Do you know about Squarespace, Steve? Uh, yes, Monty. I think I might even be a little bit more tuned into modern tech, websites, et cetera, than you. I don't know, just guessing. Oh, Steve, I love this dynamic. I'm old and conservative and you're young and progressive, and that's what makes the Newswind podcast such great listening. But yes, you're right, I must admit, I didn't know much about Squarespace. But because my new grumble book, Hell in a Handcart, is out this month. And I look forward to getting enraged by that. So I should hope. Em, arm, em, arm. Anyway, the publishers, Bluestar and Dogwhistle, made a beautiful website for the book using Squarespace. I know, I got the newsletter that you sent out using Squarespace, and the website does look great. Videos of you airing your views, members' areas for your mad fans. You've even got a merch store, I see.

• 1:12:22Adam Buxton?

  That's right, the Union Jack top hat is a big seller. But they constructed it all so fast with Squarespace. They did most of it over one lunchtime, Steve. Well, you wouldn't want to spend much longer on it, would you? Shut up, Steve. But here's the thing, anyone listening to this can start a free trial right now at Squarespace.com/Buxton and see how easy and versatile Squarespace is. And when they're ready to launch a new website or domain, they can save 10% off their first purchase by using the offer code BUXTON at checkout. Right, well, maybe I'll visit Squarespace.com/Buxton and start a new website just to refute all the nonsense in your new book. Oh, don't do that, Steve. I will. Oh, shut up, Steve. Uh. Shut up. Now, back to more depressing matters on Newswind.

• 1:13:39Adam Buxton?

  Hey, welcome back, podcasts. I will let you know if the folks at Jaws A Size get in touch to offer me a large sum of money, to use that jingle. I don't know if it was deliberate or whether she just forgot, but Mira left the Jaws A Size behind after our recording. So I don't know, maybe I'll re-gift. Anyway, thanks so much to Mira for coming along and making the time to sit and waffle with me. It was lovely to see her. Don't forget to check out the dates for her speaking tour, where she will be telling stories featured in her new memoir, Vigilante. The link is in the description. So how have you been,

• 1:14:23Adam Buxton?

  podcasts? Not too bad, I hope. Yeah, I've just been clearing out a lot of sheds. I've got a lot to do. I'm prepping for the Adam and Joe 30th Anniversary Live Specials in November. But I also made the mistake of going into one of the sheds one day and starting to tidy up a little bit. Well, it's like the bit in Aliens where Sigourney Weaver is cleaning Newt's face, and she says, "Oh dear, look, we've made a clean spot. Now we're going to have to do the whole lot." Well, it's a little bit like that. Anyway, it's

• 1:15:06Adam Buxton?

  been a very long overdue process of going through boxes like the last of my parents' boxes of belongings, plus getting rid of and recycling lots of old junk that's been lying around for years. Just feeling like maybe I'm entering a new phase, a great fun new phase. Not the final phase, it's the fun old phase. As my children are growing up and gradually sort of leaving home. I don't know, it feels like a bit of a, a

• 1:15:43Adam Buxton?

  sort of stocktaking phase. Actually, speaking of saggy jaw skin, last night I was watching Sharon Horgan's new show, Youth. Really enjoyed it. Watched the first couple of episodes with my wife. Very funny. And I was also curious to see who they had cast in a role that I auditioned for. It's the part of a character called Malcolm Hammond, a aging, out of shape, obnoxious, smug, mediocre writer. Don't know why I was asked to audition for that.

• 1:16:27Adam Buxton?

  In the end, the part went to Douglas Hodge, who's good. I mean, he's done more acting than A Buckles, but was expecting a callback on that one. Anyway, it's a good show, but there's a motif in the first episode about Sharon's character, who is in her early 50s and divorced, and her son is going to college, and now she's trying to sort of reconnect with the dating world, and is worrying about aging. And she sometimes pats the underside of her jaw. She's worried she's getting a bit saggy there. Jaws A Size, it's a good

• 1:17:10Adam Buxton?

  show. I recommend it. It's on HBO Plus, even though I just think it would have been a bit better with Adam Buxton in it. Series two, maybe. Speaking of acting, thank you very much indeed to everyone who came out to the Duchess Theatre a few weeks back for White Rabbit, Red Rabbit. You may have heard me talking about that and encouraging you to come along. I sent out a newsletter about that, in fact, when ticket sales were looking a bit sluggish over the summer. But in the end, it was full, and the audience

• 1:17:50Adam Buxton?

  were great. I talk a bit more about that on the next Patreon Q and A, if you're interested. Once again, don't forget to explore the Patreon Q and A and sign up for regular bonus content dropping every couple of weeks, plus other bits and pieces on there which sort of plop out as and when. Video of Rosie, pictures of Rosie, a lot of Rosie content, in addition to those previously unheard interviews and the Q and As, in which I often include bits of audio stuff from the archives, deconstruct a few jingles, that kind of thing. It's great

• 1:18:33Adam Buxton?

  and unmissable, I would say. Link to the Patreon page is in the description. But as I said in the intro, I think all this shed clearing has given me the opportunity to listen to a lot of audiobooks. Let's see if I can give you a couple of recommendations. Well, I listened to David Sedaris's new book, The Land and Its People. That was good. I really enjoyed that. One of his best in recent years, I thought. And I also listened to Jon Ronson's new book, The Castle, which contains stories about men in crisis, in

• 1:19:13Adam Buxton?

  the culture, in modern times. In some ways, it feels like a sequel to So You've Been Publicly Shamed, Jon's brilliant book that came out just as a lot of the culture wars and the culture of so-called cancellation was getting into full swing over a decade ago now, I suppose, which seemed, in retrospect, to have pointed the way to a lot of what has happened over the last few years. And The Castle contains stories about men caught

• 1:19:53Adam Buxton?

  up in some of those culture wars, as well as some nice introspective stuff from Jon about getting older and life-work balance, I suppose, and being a dad. And it's really good. Recommend that. What else? Adam Buxton's Success Pod, listened to that, that was amazing. Very funny. You heard that? It's on Audible. Six parts, Adam Buxton gazing at his navel and thinking about whether he still fits into the modern audio media sphere, talking to former podcast guests, Louis Theroux, Ramesh Ranganathan, Sam Campbell, Jessica

• 1:20:38Adam Buxton?

  Knappett, Kathy Burke, Gus Khan. It's a lot of laughs, great new songs. I mean, I would say what's not to like. Link in the description. And I finally got around to listening to 1234, Craig Brown's book about the Beatles, which actually I bought when it came out, 2020, I think. And I don't know why, but I didn't carry on listening initially. But so many people have recommended it to me since then. And actually, humble brag, or

• 1:21:14Adam Buxton?

  maybe just straight brag, I met Craig Brown a few months ago at a party, and he said that he had really enjoyed my Paul McCartney interview. He said, "I managed to get some new stuff out of him, which is very impressive." I said, "Thank you so much, Craig. You know, I started your book, but I never finished it." I didn't say that. Anyway, finally got around to listening to the whole thing. Really good. It was epic. It was one of those experiences where by the end of it, you're like, "Oh, no. Where's my friend gone?" Felt bereft.

• 1:21:55Adam Buxton?

  So many different textures and new ways to consider the legacy of the Beatles, which of course... He's one of my favourite things to do. Beatles, Beatles, Beatles, Beatles. And currently, I'm about to finish Lena Dunham's memoir Fame Sick. And that has been very interesting, but pretty hardcore. I mean, the main thing about her life is that she has been dealing with chronic illness that sounds unbelievably painful. And so that, plus all the kind of social media horrors

• 1:22:39Adam Buxton?

  and controversies that she has found herself embroiled in for one reason or another over the past few years. You need a strong constitution. Plus, wow, she really doesn't hold back. I wonder what the process was for writing that book? Like, did she get in touch with the ex-boyfriends that she describes having sex with in microscopic detail and then feeling contemptuous about? But she writes well, and it's very interesting to hear about the process of Making Girls, which was a great show. All right, there you go, there's some distraction fodder for you. Thanks so much to Diggory Waite and Claire Broughton from Hat Trick for their production support,

• 1:23:23Adam Buxton?

  and to Seamus Murphy Mitchell for his. Thanks to everybody at Acast for liaising with my sponsors. Thank you to Helen Green for her beautiful artwork. But thanks most of all to you. Wow, you listened to all of that waffle, hope you're not feeling queasy. How would you feel about a hug? Come here, hey. How's it going? Good to see you again, I missed you.

• 1:23:45Adam Buxton?

  Until the next time, we share the same sonic space. Please go carefully out there, I'm sorry to tell you that it hasn't got less nutty.

• 1:23:57Adam Buxton?

  Hello, bird.

• 1:24:05Adam Buxton?

  I feel bad now about scaring the bird away with my stupid shouting.

• 1:24:13Adam Buxton?

  But it has to be done. Because, for what it's worth, I love you. Bye!