Pod Insights Crime Weekly S3 Ep359: The Skelton Brothers | A Thanksgiving Mystery Finally Cracks Open About this episode A major development has cracked open the 15 year mystery of the Skelton brothers: John Skelton, the father of Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner, who vanished in 2010 while in his care, has been charged with three counts of open murder and three counts of evidence tampering, just days before his planned release from prison. A judge legally declared the brothers dead, though at that time ruled there was not enough evidence to confirm their father was responsible. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. UncommonGoods.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 15% off your next gift!2. https://www. SurfShark.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for FOUR extra months of Surf Shark VPN!
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:13 Derrick Levasseur? Hey everyone, welcome back to Crime Weekly News. I'm Derrick Levasseur.
0:17 Stephanie Harlowe? And I'm Stephanie Harlow.
0:18 Derrick Levasseur? And today, we're going to be giving an update on a case that we haven't covered on Crime Weekly, but Stephanie was telling me she covered it on her channel many years ago, right?
0:27 Stephanie Harlowe? Mm-hmm, yep, exactly. It's been a long time. It was 2020 I covered it, yep.
0:32 Derrick Levasseur? Okay, so I'm going to give a little bit of a backstory here, just a little bit of a sample size. So for anyone like me who doesn't know the story, you'll have just an idea of what we're talking about.
0:41 Stephanie Harlowe? And I'm going to give a little bit of a deeper recap, too.
0:44 Derrick Levasseur? As you do, as you do. Okay, so back in 2010, three young brothers from Morencie, Michigan, nine-year-old Andrew, seven-year-old Alexander, and five-year-old Tanner Skelton vanished over Thanksgiving weekend after a court-ordered visit with their father, John Skelton. For years, he's told shifting stories about handing the boys off to an unknown woman and a shadowy underground group, but he was only convicted of unlawful imprisonment for failing to return them to their mother. Now, nearly 15 years later, that's changed. Prosecutors in Lenawee County have charged Skelton with three counts of open murder and three counts of tampering with evidence in connection with his son's disappearances, just days before he was set to walk out of prison. Tonight, we're going to quickly revisit the basics of this case and then break down
1:28 Derrick Levasseur? what led to the new charges, what investigators say they've learned, and what this could mean going forward.
1:35 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, so this case has, it's bothered a lot of people for a long time. It's been decades. And I mean, when I covered it in 2020, it was because a lot of people had requested it. And I think we all knew, we all knew what happened here, but the fact that John Skelton seemed to have gotten away with it. Really discouraged everybody and we all kind of thought like, man, he's never, he's never gonna face justice for this. He's never gonna have to answer for this. So, let me give you a quick recap of the case for those who don't know about the case and also for those who haven't really visited the case in a long time. So it was late November of 2010 when 32-year-old Tanya Zuvers did what she had done countless times before. She dropped her three sons, nine-year-old Andrew, seven-year-old Alexander, and five-year-old
2:20 Stephanie Harlowe? Tanner, at her parents' house in Morantzi, Michigan. It was Wednesday, November 24th, the day before Thanksgiving. She and her estranged husband, John Skelton, were in the middle of a messy separation and custody battle, but he still had court-ordered visitation. The boys were supposed to spend the holiday with their father and be back in their mother's care that Friday afternoon. So she hugged them, she kissed them, she told them to have a good Thanksgiving with their dad. She had no way of knowing it was the last time she would ever see any of them.
2:49 Derrick Levasseur? Horrible.
2:50 Stephanie Harlowe? Horrible. So the Skelton family lived in the tiny town of Morantzi, which is right on the Michigan-Ohio border. John Skelton, a Jacksonville, Florida native and former Army serviceman, had bounced around the country before marrying Tanya in 2002 and settling there. Between them, they had older children from previous relationships, but together they had three boys. That's Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner. Now, the boys were known around town as normal, active kids, always outside, riding bikes, playing soccer, camping with family, begging for McDonald's like all other kids.
3:21 Derrick Levasseur? Sounds like my kids, yep.
3:22 Stephanie Harlowe? Uh huh. Andrew was the-
3:23 Derrick Levasseur? Especially the McDonald's part. I don't know about the riding bikes and all that.
3:26 Stephanie Harlowe? Maybe not the riding bikes.
3:27 Derrick Levasseur? But the McDonald's for sure.
3:28 Stephanie Harlowe? The McDonald's part. Andrew, he was the quiet, thoughtful one. He was the oldest. Alexander was the daredevil middle child, obsessed with gadgets and phones. Tanner, the youngest, was imaginative, cuddly, and he loved spinning stories just to make adults laugh. Now, behind that picture of a small-town family life, the marriage between John and Tanya was crumbling. John had lost his job as a truck driver after a DUI. He was struggling with money. Sometimes he was failing to pay bills or buy groceries, but he still managed to supply himself with cigarettes and beer. He'd already served time for failing to pay- Child support for a daughter they had from a previous relationship. Tanya, for her part, carried a serious mistake from her past.
4:09 Stephanie Harlowe? In 1998, years before she even met John, she pled guilty to fourth degree criminal sexual conduct for a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old boy who worked on rental properties that she and her then-husband managed. So, yeah, both Tanya and John, maybe not the best parents.
4:28 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, not upstanding citizens, we'll put it that way. And we, by the way, over here at Crime Weekly, we treat both the same because if we reversed genders there, we'd be saying this person's a monster and shouldn't even have kids. I mean, this woman being a grown adult, having some type of sexual relationship with a 14-year-old boy while she's married? Scumbag, sorry to say it.
4:47 Stephanie Harlowe? While she's married, just, I mean, in general.
4:48 Derrick Levasseur? In general, but scumbag, so I'm calling it balls and strikes, both ways.
4:52 Stephanie Harlowe? Pretty gross, pretty gross. I do not, do not condone that. So, Tanya had disclosed this to John before they got married, which also I think is a red flag, that he was like, "Yeah, that's cool," because then he went ahead with the relationship.
5:05 Derrick Levasseur? Huge.
5:06 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah. Not only did he go ahead with the relationship, but he had children with her. And he never raised this issue as a problem until their breakup. So, the real escalation started in September of 2010. On September 12th, after talking vaguely about wanting to move the family to Florida, which, remember, that's where he's from, John went to the boys' school, he pulled them out early, and he told staff they were going on a vacation. In reality, he tried to take them to Florida without Tanya's knowledge or consent. Tanya found out from the school, she contacted the police, she scrambled to get a lawyer. By sheer bad luck, the attorney that John had scheduled an appointment with was the same one Tanya's daughters hired first. So, they hired him first, right? So, obviously, you know that this is an issue.
5:50 Stephanie Harlowe? You can't, in a divorce, even, I think in a lot of states, even if you just talk to a lawyer and you pay them any kind of money, then your spouse cannot ever use that lawyer. So, this enraged John when his appointment was canceled. He stormed out of the house with Andrew and Alexander, speeding away in his van while Tanya's friend physically held on to Tanya. So he couldn't be taken. Five days later, Tanya tracked John and the boys to a woman's apartment in Florida. They went down there with court papers and a judge ordered that once they crossed back into Michigan, all three boys would be in Tanya's custody.
6:26 Derrick Levasseur? Okay, so this is something we hear about all the time up to this point. These child custody issues. It's a, it's a constant game on both sides. They're using the judicial system to their advantage. Sometimes it's one party more than the other. Seems like here you just have someone who's trying to keep the rules the same in Tanya and John's trying to bend them. He's trying to take off with the kids and leave her in the dust.
6:49 Stephanie Harlowe? Exactly. So we have a little bit more to talk about as far as this backstory. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.
7:02 Stephanie Harlowe? So, once everyone was back in Morenci, John suddenly wanted to work on the marriage, but Tanya no longer trusted him, obviously. So, on her lawyer's advice, she tried to keep things calm by agreeing to therapy and allowing him regular visitation, hoping that he, you know, this would keep him somewhat appeased and that would prevent him from trying something reckless again. They actually live very close. They only live two blocks apart. So John stayed in the marital home on Congress Street and Tanya moved with the boys into a vacant nearby house owned by her daughter. Now, the boys stayed with Tanya during the week. They went to their father, John's, on most weekends. That uneasy status quo lasted only about two months. Then, the weekend before Thanksgiving, John told the boys about Tanya's sex offender
7:45 Stephanie Harlowe? past, terrifying them and shattering what little goodwill remained between Tanya and John. Obviously, Tanya was furious. She decided she would no longer go out of her way to accommodate him, including denying his request to keep the boys longer that coming Thanksgiving weekend. Now, I actually have a question for you.
8:04 Stephanie Harlowe? What John did by telling his sons about Tanya's past?
8:09 Stephanie Harlowe? Considering their ages, do you agree with that?
8:12 Derrick Levasseur? No.
8:12 Stephanie Harlowe? Or not?
8:12 Derrick Levasseur? Not at all.
8:13 Stephanie Harlowe? Because it seems to be a ploy at this point to alienate.
8:15 Derrick Levasseur? Not at all.
8:15 Stephanie Harlowe? It's not like, I want to keep you safe. It's like, I want to tell you something about your other parent so that when it comes down to custody, maybe it will go in my favor.
8:24 Derrick Levasseur? No, I completely disagree with it. They're looking at it from the sense of what you just said, but you're traumatizing that kid by doing that.
8:31 Stephanie Harlowe? Yes, you are.
8:31 Derrick Levasseur? No doubt about it. There, we look at our parents in a way where we see them as superheroes.
8:35 Stephanie Harlowe? We should.
8:36 Derrick Levasseur? As we should.
8:37 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah.
8:37 Derrick Levasseur? And unfortunately, sometimes their actions lead us to feel otherwise. Right? When I say looking at them as superheroes, it's like we're not, we're first born as we're growing up as babies and, you know, we don't know anything other than our, than our parents. And then to have one parent talk this negatively about another parent, it's almost like learning certain people don't exist. I'm not gonna-
8:57 Stephanie Harlowe? Like certain holiday people.
8:58 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, it might not exist.
9:00 Stephanie Harlowe? I know what you mean.
9:00 Derrick Levasseur? And that, that can be, I, I know how I felt when I learned it and it's not a good feeling.
9:04 Stephanie Harlowe? Crushed.
9:05 Derrick Levasseur? And, and that's something that's just once a year. Imagine the person you're with every day and you think they can do no wrong. So I absolutely disagree with this. I've dealt with this in my life with other relatives of mine. And what's even worse is when the other parent embellishes or flat out lies about the, of the other parent.
9:24 Stephanie Harlowe? Now, in this case, he's not lying, right?
9:26 Derrick Levasseur? He's not lying. He's telling the truth, but that doesn't make it okay.
9:29 Stephanie Harlowe? However, there's no reason for his kids to know this.
9:31 Derrick Levasseur? No, the number one priority for John and Tanya should be their children. And if you have half a brain, then you know that talking this negatively about their mother is not going to have a positive impact on them mentally. So for that reason, it shouldn't be done.
9:46 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, I mean, I understand like some parents, I mean, some parents are, are bad and have bad things in their past, but that should be up for the kids to learn on their own and experience on their own, unfortunately, as they get older. But when we've got John over here, who's kind of acting erratic, you know, trying to take the kids to Florida, their sense of safety is already shattered with one parent and now you've done it with the other, which leaves these three boys completely at bay, you know, un, unanchored, unmoored.
10:11 Derrick Levasseur? And now, I'm going to say something a little controversial. But it's more of a question and then I'll let you go with it. So and you kind of prefaced this, right? John knew about her past before they had children.
10:23 Stephanie Harlowe? Before they got married.
10:23 Derrick Levasseur? So he can't say sh**. However, once they have children, is there a small part of you, even though based on why we're covering this case today, we know John's a scumbag, right? Is there a small part of you or anybody listening or watching this where you could say, "Oh, I could see how John wouldn't want these young boys with this woman because of her past."
10:46 Stephanie Harlowe? No, because one, John already was a parent before he met Tanya.
10:51 Derrick Levasseur? Agreed.
10:51 Stephanie Harlowe? So you already had that parents mentality.
10:53 Derrick Levasseur? That's a fact, yep.
10:53 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, you already had that parents mentality. You still married the woman knowing what she had done and then agreed actively to have children with her. So it was never an issue for you. You were never concerned. It's not like he didn't have kids and he wasn't a parent and then they had kids together and he's like, "Oh, as a parent, I see this so differently." You already were a parent and as a parent, you should have never married her and had kids with her. If it was ever a concern for you, which lets me know it probably wasn't, which also lets me know what his judgment is like because it would have been a big concern for me personally.
11:22 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, I'm with you. I think it wasn't a concern originally and then when things went south, now he's using it as an excuse.
11:28 Stephanie Harlowe? Just using it, yeah.
11:28 Derrick Levasseur? And he's just trying to make their mother look bad by telling them, which back to what we were originally talking about, it's not right.
11:35 Stephanie Harlowe? Exactly. So despite Tanya being upset and saying to John, "No, your request to keep the boys longer on Thanksgiving weekend is denied," the original plan still held. So on Wednesday, November 24th, Tanya dropped the boys at her parents' house so that John could pick them up there for the holiday. On Thanksgiving Day, she spoke to John on the phone, heard the boys playing video games in the background, and fielded more questions from John about whether their relationship had a future, which is another reason I don't think he gave a sh** about that because he's still trying to like reconcile with her.
12:07 Derrick Levasseur? Right, right.
12:08 Stephanie Harlowe? Now, Tanya still wouldn't give him the answer that he wanted. Now, in her head, she's like, "I don't have anything to do with this dude." But once again, she's trying to keep him calm so that everything goes to plan, which sucks to be in that position to begin with. So, the next morning, Friday, November 26th, she texted and she said, "Hey, can I pick the boys up earlier than 3:00 PM? I haven't seen them all weekend. I miss them." John told her that he and the boys weren't home, but, because remember, she lived so close to him, she could see his van sitting in his driveway from her window. So, when she called him on the obvious lie, he pivoted and said friends had picked the boys up and taken them elsewhere for Thanksgiving. Then, the story shifted again. He claimed a woman named Joanne had the boys and would bring them back to Morenci by 3:00 PM. I would have been losing my mind, as Tanya at this point, right?
12:53 Stephanie Harlowe? Of course. Especially, especially what John has already done. So, Tanya didn't really know this Joanne person. Months earlier, a woman calling herself Joanne Taylor had friended Tanya on a parenting site, which is Cafe Mom, but Tanya had never met Joanne in person, and no one in Morenci seemed to know Joanne either. Now, John was telling Tanya that their three boys were with this stranger. So, as the hours passed and the kids didn't appear, Tanya's panic grew. John, himself, he eventually ended up at a hospital in Toledo, Ohio. His explanation to staff and later to police was that he had tried to hang himself and he injured his foot in the process. So, when Tanya called her lawyer, she was told to
13:37 Stephanie Harlowe? give it until 3:00 PM, which was the technical time that she was supposed to get the boys back, and then call the police if her sons still hadn't been returned. At exactly 3:01, Tanya called Morenci Police Chief Larry Weeks. So, Larry Weeks drove to the hospital to question John. There, John claimed he'd been overwhelmed. Facing the loss of his marriage, his kids, and his financial stability, he decided to end his life on Thanksgiving. He said he didn't want the boys to witness it, so he arranged for his friend, Joanne, to pick them up and drive them to his parents in Florida. Which he's not supposed to do anyways, but that's neither here nor there. According to John's story, Joanne agreed to drive the three young boys whom she'd never met 15 hours away on a holiday, and he never contacted the authorities about his alleged
14:22 Stephanie Harlowe? plan to die by suicide. To Chief Weeks, the story made no sense. To everyone listening with two brain cells to rub together, the story makes no sense. So an Amber Alert was issued for Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner, and for a silver van allegedly driven by this Joanne person, and then the FBI joined the case. All right, I know you have thoughts about this.
14:41 Derrick Levasseur? Of course.
14:41 Stephanie Harlowe? I can see it. So we're gonna take our last break quick, and we'll be right back.
14:52 Derrick Levasseur? All right, yeah, we're back, and what I'm about to say may seem obvious based on why we're covering this today, but this is concerning if you're looking at it just in the moment, because in many instances, what we see is after doing something bad to your children, the parents will try to take their own life. And so even though we don't have the children, we don't know their whereabouts, the fact that he's attempting to kill himself, allegedly, I don't know if he actually did it or not, but it's not good. It's not good. And the fact that his best reason for where the kids are is some unknown person other than Joanne, being her name, that she can, like you said, drive them 15 hours to Florida.
15:29 Stephanie Harlowe? On Thanksgiving.
15:30 Derrick Levasseur? Like, like, like it was said here to Weeks, it doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense. What I just said makes more sense than what he's describing to Chief Weeks.
15:39 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah.
15:39 Derrick Levasseur? So not good.
15:40 Stephanie Harlowe? Not good at all. And investigators obviously quickly zeroed in on John's house and then his movements. A neighbor and a family friend, Gail Johnson, reported seeing the boys on Thanksgiving afternoon. She said all three of them were in pajamas, all three were acting normally. Now, Gail is believed to be the last person other than John to have seen these boys alive. So when police forced their way into John's home, they found it in shambles. Furniture broken, dishes smashed, mattresses slashed open. It looked like the aftermath of a violent outburst. So they collected a rope as well, a noose, bleach and cleaning products, and they found a bullet on the stairs. John offered strained explanations. He said the noose was for a project, the ropes were for a climbing harness, the bullet
16:25 Stephanie Harlowe? from an old gun collection, but nothing that explained where his children were. Cell phone and GPS data showed that in the very early hours of Friday, November 26th at 4:29 a.m., John's phone left his Maransy home and traveled south into Ohio. Around 5 a.m., the phone was either turned off or went dead, and it didn't come back on until 6:46 a.m. when it pinged back in Michigan. So the last known tower hit in that dark window was near Holiday City, Ohio. That two-hour, 17-minute gap became the focus of this search. Law enforcement and hundreds of volunteers scoured back roads. They scoured campgrounds like Lazy River, Harrison Lake State Park, wooded lots, and even a suspicious shallow grave. Cadaver dogs were brought to the local landfill.
17:09 Stephanie Harlowe? Nothing tied to these boys was found. As investigators dug into John's story, that whole Joanne Taylor narrative collapsed. There was no record of any real relationship with a woman by that name. When they examined his devices, the police discovered that John himself had created a fake online persona using the name Joanne Taylor and had used it to befriend Tanya on Cafe Mom shortly after she filed for divorce. In other words, this mysterious friend appears to have been an invention from the start, either to monitor Tanya or to lay the groundwork for the story that he would tell when the boys disappeared. Probably, in my opinion, both. So John then shifted to a new story. That Joanne, she was a real person, but she was linked to a secretive, quasi-religious underground group
17:54 Stephanie Harlowe? that helps rescue children from abusive homes. He began talking about shadowy figures with names like Virgil and Elijah, business cards for United Foster Outreach, and Amish-style coats allegedly brought to his home so the boys could wear them and blend in.
18:10 Derrick Levasseur? Jesus.
18:11 Stephanie Harlowe? I know. Absolutely ludicrous.
18:13 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, I mean, there could be a combination of things going on here, some type of mental health struggle. But more than likely, it sounds like you have a motive.
18:25 Derrick Levasseur? Probably wanted to be back with Tanya, have the kids all under one roof. And when he realized that wasn't a possibility, it's one of these classic examples where if I can't have what I want, then nobody will have what they want and I'll take everything from you. And it sounds like what happened here with the kids.
18:42 Stephanie Harlowe? This is very common, actually. The whole like creating these fake profiles in order to communicate with your partner that you're going through a divorce with. It's just a, yes, exactly. It's a very scary thing. It's a scary sign. And I don't think it was about John wanting to be back with Tanya and having the kids all together. He just wanted control. He didn't want to lose control. Remember, he's financially strapped. He can't really take care of himself. He stayed in the family home, made Tanya and her kids leave. This is a selfish, controlling, bad person to begin with. So in this version of this, this secret underground group that saves abused children, John claimed he truly believed Tanya was abusing the boys, something every investigation and interview with the children had failed to support.
19:25 Stephanie Harlowe? And he said he had handed them over to this organization to keep them safe and he was expecting regular updates and contact. He said he wrapped the boys in blankets, placed stuffed animals in their arms and watched them go. Then he added the chilling detail that the boys would need to hibernate until they graduate, implying they would be hidden away for many years. When confronted with his own internet searches that the police found that John had made in the weeks before the boys vanished, this is searches like rat poison. Will rat poison kill children? And can I break someone's neck with my hands? Well, he claimed he'd only been Googling answers to questions his sons had randomly asked. Yeah, your sons are random, your little sons are like, hey, do you think we can break someone's hands with our necks? No, get out of here, John.
20:07 Stephanie Harlowe? So he also dropped off the boys' winter coats and toothbrushes with his aunt after Thanksgiving, allegedly telling her that the boys wouldn't be needing them anymore and that he didn't want Tanya to have the memories. Control, remember, control. All of it pointed away from any genuine child rescue effort and towards something much darker. Now, throughout the searches, Morenci and the surrounding communities poured their time and energy into finding Andrew, Alexander and Tanner. Volunteers walked fields and ditches and free- ...weather plastered the boys' faces on posters and followed every possible lead, including a later unconfirmed sighting of three boys with a tired, disheveled woman at a donut shop off the Ohio Turnpike. But as the winter settled in, the hope of finding the brothers alive faded. In mid-February 2011, on a snowy day, when he knew local
20:52 Stephanie Harlowe? children would be home with their families, Chief Weeks finally told the public that he'd been privately believing for months that the investigation has shifted from a missing person search to a likely homicide case. Despite that, the bodies of Andrew, Alexander, and Tanner have never been found, and John Skelton has never given a verifiable account of what he did with his sons. Now, we do know he was arrested. He was sentenced to 15 years in prison for unlawful imprisonment, so he did get that sentence. That was pretty much as much as law enforcement could do with what they had. Now, on November 12, 2025, in Lenoir County, Michigan, John Skelton was charged with three counts of open murder,
21:34 Stephanie Harlowe? which is a no-body murder, and three counts of tampering with evidence in connection with the disappearance of his three young sons from November of 2010. These three boys were legally declared dead in March of 2025, though their bodies have still not been found. And at that time, a judge stated there was not enough evidence to prove the boys had been murdered. Obviously, the timing of this is notable. Skelton had been serving a sentence for unlawful imprisonment of his sons. He was due for release November 29, 2025. This is just weeks after the charges were filed. So obviously, police are like, "Hey, we don't want him to be released. We don't want him to get out." They've pointed to a series of red flags. John's changing stories about where his sons were, that van
22:18 Stephanie Harlowe? trip into Ohio the early morning of their disappearance. At his home, police found this strange and disturbing physical evidence, the noose, a Bible open to a verse with a passage circled, a note allegedly saying, "You will hate me forever, and I know this," which was addressed to Tanya. Investigators also flagged those internet searches about the rat poison. Will rat poison kill children? Can I break someone's neck with my hands? Now, law enforcement states they never found the boys. There's no physical remains, but obviously they believe that sufficient evidence exists for prosecution. So I guess my question would be what changed between March of 2025 and November of 2025, where a judge did declare these three boys to be deceased, but said
23:03 Stephanie Harlowe? there wasn't enough evidence to bring murder charges. And now in November of 2025, there is enough evidence. Or are the police just like, hey, we have to do something, right? We have to at least try with what we have to take John Skelton to trial for murder, because that's a better alternative than letting him walk out and not ever face accountability for the murder of these three children.
23:26 Derrick Levasseur? So I have a few things here. First off, I want to double back to what you said a couple of minutes ago regarding him dropping off the toothbrushes and saying that they would no longer need them. It sounds minute. I think it's a big detail, because if the kids were being transported somewhere, what are they going to still need to do every day?
23:46 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, they still need their toothbrushes.
23:47 Derrick Levasseur? They'll need to brush their teeth. So the fact that the toothbrushes weren't with them, that is something you would pack, whether they're going overnight to a sleepover or on a long trip to Florida, and you may not see them for a while. When you're searching that house as a police officer, I'd be looking for evidence to suggest that they were moving, and I would venture to say that there was probably evidence to suggest that the boys never left that house, or didn't leave there alive because of their belongings still being in that house. I also would want more details on his explanation as to why he took that trip in the morning to Ohio. I know we're going over it really just surface layer here, but I'd love to know what his explanation for that was, although I can almost guarantee you it won't make sense. The next thing you had said, I'm not a lawyer, and so by no
24:31 Derrick Levasseur? means am I an expert in this area. But when a judge declares someone dead, I don't think they're in the position to say whether or not the person who's potentially responsible for that death, whether there's enough evidence or not to charge them. That's usually done by the prosecutor's office. So maybe that was taken out of context. Maybe that was like the impression he or she gave, but I don't think that's there.
24:53 Stephanie Harlowe? Or maybe he was just sort of like communicating.
24:56 Derrick Levasseur? Maybe.
24:56 Stephanie Harlowe? The DA's feelings.
24:58 Derrick Levasseur? But ultimately, to answer your last point, whether law enforcement feels they have enough or not, I, I agree with what you said there as far as the reason behind this. The evidence is not going to change, right? They were hoping to find the boys. After all these years and they waited until the very last moment in order to do so because you only get one shot at this. So their rationale was, hey, he's in prison for 15 years. That gives us 15 years to hope that a lead comes forward or we get lucky. And we find the boys and it gives us our strongest case against him to charge him with triple homicide, right? That didn't happen, unfortunately. So now I think this was the game plan all along. Wait until the last moment and then you know what?
25:40 Derrick Levasseur? Whatever we got, we got, we go in guns blazing. We hope for the best, but even if it doesn't work out, it won't be for lack of, lack of effort because they literally waited until the last month. Before charging him, hoping they would gain more evidence, but now. They gotta go in with what they have. Many people, I shouldn't say many, but people have been convicted with. Uh, no bodies before in, in a homicide investigation. I think this case is pretty strong.
26:07 Stephanie Harlowe? It's a circumstantial case, but I think it's a strong, I think it's a strong circumstantial case.
26:11 Derrick Levasseur? I don't think the absence of evidence automatically indicates exoneration. I don't think. The absence of evidence is a sculpatory in nature. I have such an issue with that where it's like, well, we don't have evidence of that because we couldn't find it. Like for example. We don't have the boys. We don't know for a fact that they're dead, but common sense. Has to come into play here. And common sense would tell you that more than likely they're not alive. So that's a perfect example of, we don't have evidence. Direct evidence that they're dead. But that doesn't mean that they're not. And so that doesn't clear him of being charged with homicide. So I know there's probably some defense attorneys out there that will strongly disagree, but from where I'm sitting. Yeah, I think this is absolutely the right move.
26:56 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, it's, it is helpful also to, to know that John's stories never checked out, right? So they found out that this Joanne person wasn't real. It was actually John himself. That's a huge red flag. And then this whole underground society thing that stole the kids that he claims has the kids. They they looked into this, right? They looked into this and the police and the FBI have, you know, ways of of sort of finding these underground places. And they have like people who are kind of planted into the the lower echelons of society where these kinds of things happen. The secretive areas of society. Nobody's ever heard of this thing. Nobody has any it's it's literally as if they don't exist. So if they do exist, then only John Skelton knew how to find them.
27:40 Stephanie Harlowe? How did John have the the knowledge and the know how to find these people and and and find this group? But the FBI and the police can't. That's a big thing, too, which likely means his story is completely false. But I did look at the statistics and whether or not anyone would agree or disagree with you about how easy or hard it is to prosecute a no body case. There's not an exact total available, but over 570 people have been found guilty in no body murder cases that went to trial with an 86% conviction rate for those specific cases since 2012. So this is actually higher than the average conviction rate of 70% for all murder cases. Yeah, that's actually strange.
28:21 Stephanie Harlowe? I I think that once you have a very strong circumstantial case where it's like, kind of like a no doubt thing, right? Like, the jury is going to hear this story and they're going to be like, I just don't see any other option. I don't see what else could have happened here besides this was John Skelton's doing. He's got the motive, he's got the means.
28:39 Derrick Levasseur? And the opportunity.
28:40 Stephanie Harlowe? And he had the opportunity, yeah.
28:41 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah.
28:42 Stephanie Harlowe? Pretty much.
28:43 Derrick Levasseur? You you think about reasonable doubt. And you talked about the police department's inability to find this underground group. Well, let's even step back a little bit more. Forget the underground group for a second. We're talking about this woman, Joanne, that allegedly exists. So you go to John and you say, hey, John, okay, you made this decision that Joanne was going to transport your sons to this underground group or whatever in Florida. Okay. Or your, his parents in Florida, whatever it was. How did you get in contact with her? Oh, I called her.
29:16 Stephanie Harlowe? Well, she doesn't exist. They found out she didn't exist.
29:18 Derrick Levasseur? Well, that's my point, but I'm saying, but just to break it down here, how'd you get in contact with her? Oh, by phone. Okay, what's her phone number? I don't have it. Okay, well, how did you meet her? Well, she, I met her over here. You probably go confirm that's not true. Did you, I went to her house at one point, or she lived in this area. You go over there, she doesn't live there. So you've established that the conduit, the liaison to this underground group doesn't exist and therefore.
29:42 Stephanie Harlowe? Well, what is that? What does that even remind you of? Does it remind you of Casey Anthony and Zanny the nanny?
29:46 Derrick Levasseur? No, I mean, of course, yeah, this is a path, but, but to me, not being able to charge someone because you, their, their story is so outlandish and the fact that you haven't found the body is not fair to the victims. Cause that, because that just means that unfortunately they did a good job of hiding the bodies. So you don't get rewarded for that, in my opinion.
30:08 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, and John was ex-military, so you know.
30:11 Derrick Levasseur? Well, I mean, and also he's, he traveled two hours and 13 minutes somewhere. That's a big area to have to track and cover and search, especially if they're buried underground or they're in some type of body of water. It's gonna be hard to find them.
30:25 Stephanie Harlowe? What I'm wondering for you, a question for you, um, is it possible? Because yeah, a trial could go the right way, which is convicting John Skelton, because I think we all agree he did this. But could the prosecutor say, John, listen, you, you could be convicted, right? Everybody knows about this case. It's very widespread, especially people in the area where you're gonna go on trial. Now, his lawyers may try to get a change of venue. If they're, they're, they're screwed if they do it in emergency, right? Because this community remembers these boys. They still think of them. He might try to get a change of venue, but if the lawyers say, if the prosecutor say, listen, this thing is not gonna go well for you. I don't care what you think. Give us information and we'll take life in prison off the table. We'll give you a deal. Tell us where your sons are. Is that a potential?
31:08 Derrick Levasseur? I don't think he'll do that.
31:09 Stephanie Harlowe? I don't think he will either.
31:10 Derrick Levasseur? It's a potential, it's a potential they could give him that, but I don't, I don't even think they will. Listen.
31:14 Stephanie Harlowe? He's gonna try to take his chances like Casey Anthony did, right?
31:16 Derrick Levasseur? This is the first time I've ever heard of this case. Okay? First time. You've given me a. Just a basic understanding of this case. If I were a jury member, I'd be looking for an alternative as to what could have happened to these boys. There ain't one, Stephanie.
31:33 Stephanie Harlowe? There isn't one, right?
31:34 Derrick Levasseur? So guess what? Reasonable people are gonna come to the same conclusion that I just came to in the last 30 minutes. Unless you offer an alternative that actually makes sense, it will not rise to the level of reasonable doubt, which would lead to a non-gilty verdict. I would venture to say, he's going to be found guilty.
31:57 Stephanie Harlowe? I hope so.
31:58 Derrick Levasseur? That's, that's what I believe, especially when we consider what we know right now and the circumstances surrounding this case and surrounding cases like this in general across this country. You just said the, the percentages, right? 80 something percent?
32:12 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, I think it was 86 or something.
32:13 Derrick Levasseur? If he had offered something like, I was at a grocery store and there's some evidence to suggest that in that small window, the kids could have been kidnapped or anything like that, then maybe.
32:23 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, but he didn't even say that. Yeah.
32:25 Derrick Levasseur? He would have been better saying, I was asleep. I woke up and they were gone. Cause the opportunity for someone to break in and abduct your children is more likely than you creating this person who has already been proven to be a fictional character.
32:40 Stephanie Harlowe? Mm-hmm. And a fictional society, underground society that saves abused children.
32:44 Derrick Levasseur? And, and you can't go back now. What you said back then is going to be what is used now at trial. And I think he's cooked. And I, my girls are gonna love that I said that word because that's their word. So shout out to Telly and Peyton.
32:57 Stephanie Harlowe? You're cooked.
32:58 Derrick Levasseur? We got it into an episode. Bro, we're cooked. That's their thing. Whenever I'm like, why didn't you guys pick up your stuff? I hear Peyton or Telly go, bro, we're cooked.
33:06 Stephanie Harlowe? We're cooked.
33:09 Derrick Levasseur? Shout out to them.
33:10 Stephanie Harlowe? I hear it. I hear it in my house too.
33:11 Derrick Levasseur? Yes. So that's how I feel.
33:13 Stephanie Harlowe? It's often, it's often Aiden saying to me, you're cooked though.
33:16 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, I mean.
33:16 Stephanie Harlowe? I'll be like, ah, well, I forgot to do that. You're cooked, man.
33:18 Derrick Levasseur? The big thing for Disney, this, we're in a line waiting. I'm like, Telly, we're cooked. Cause the line was so long. But no, I'm trying to end this on a positive note because I hate these cases. To think that these little boys, uh, especially when you consider the searches. What could have happened on that morning? I don't even want to think about it. We're too close to the holidays and it's too much evil in the world, but I am glad to see that law enforcement did it the exact right way. It sucks for the family that it's, it took this long. But law enforcement did, and a lot of you might not want to hear this, exactly what they're supposed to do. They understand this is a one-shot deal. They waited as long as they could and it just didn't work out unfortunately.
34:02 Derrick Levasseur? But they haven't forgot, they're not quitting and they're still going for it.
34:05 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, and right from the get-go, law enforcement knew what happened here.
34:08 Derrick Levasseur? Hundred percent.
34:09 Stephanie Harlowe? They knew who John was, they knew what, what he was doing. They'd seen cases like this before, we all have. If you're into true crime, you've seen cases like this before.
34:15 Derrick Levasseur? They were hoping to find the boys and they, they even waited to declare them dead. Probably for a, you know, emotional reasons, but also from a legal standpoint. Declare them dead in 2025, you waited until the very last moment. Now that they've been officially declared dead, you're going down for it, buddy. Hey, surprise, you're not leaving prison. You thought you were about to walk out those doors? Nope, now you got another 30 or 40 coming, hopefully.
34:40 Stephanie Harlowe? Well, let's see. Well, if, if he is found guilty, he's facing life in prison, but yeah, at his age, at his age, it probably won't be. And that's another reason why I don't think he'll take the deal. He'll say, let me take my chances.
34:51 Derrick Levasseur? He's gonna roll the dice.
34:52 Stephanie Harlowe? Yeah, let me take my chances with the jury. Um, his lawyers will tell him, let's take our, our chances with the jury because this is a circumstantial no-body case. He is 53 years old. He's only 53 years old.
35:04 Derrick Levasseur? Well, maybe another 40 years, 30 years, he'll be in prison, but you know, let's tie this back to something you said at the very top of the show. And to the reason he won't admit to this, ego. Even knowing his life may end in behind bars, his ego won't let him admit this out loud because then the perception of him from the outside community changes, right? He wants people out there to continue to think he's a victim.
35:30 Stephanie Harlowe? I mean, the perception of him sucks already. Yeah.
35:33 Derrick Levasseur? So he's not gonna admit it because even though that would give closure to everybody else, it's always been about him.
35:37 Stephanie Harlowe? So he's Lori Vallow.
35:40 Derrick Levasseur? Yeah, he's Lori Valon for sure. Absolutely. Um, any other words before we wrap this one up?
35:45 Stephanie Harlowe? No, I just, I can't wait to see or hear what everybody thinks about this. Yeah.
35:49 Derrick Levasseur? I'm gonna definitely be following it. Now you had said before we started, I should have covered this on Detective Perspective. I wish I would have known about it. Now that there's been an arrest, there's really no need to cover it. I believe we got the guy. So there's no need for help here, but we'll keep an eye on it. If there's a major update, we'll let you guys know. Uh, we'll be back later this week with BTK Part Four. Um, audio on Friday, YouTube on Sunday. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.
Previous S3 Ep358: BTK | Letters, Lies, and the Church of Death (Part 3) Next S3 Ep360: BTK | The Piano, The Mask, and the Dead of Winter (Part 4) Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated