Why Your "Healthy" Foods Are Making You Sick | Michael Pollan

Michael Pollan cuts through nutrition confusion and exposes the uncomfortable truth: ultra processed foods now make up more than 60% of the American diet, and they're engineered to manipulate your body and brain. Most foods you think are healthy, like plant-based burgers with 21 synthetic ingredients and diet sodas that trick your metabolism, are actually sabotaging your health and creating cravings that trap you in a cycle of poor eating. Your gut microbiome holds the key to everything from your weight to your mental health, and it's starving without the 30 different plants per week it needs to thrive. By understanding how food companies exploit your evolutionary instincts for sweetness and fat, you can reclaim control and use Pollan's seven-word mantra to make choices that honor both pleasure and nutrition. The transformation begins when you stop lying to your body about what you're eating and start thinking of food as medicine rather than entertainment. Michael’s books: This Is Your Mind on Plants How to Change Your Mind Cooked: A Natural History of Transformation Food Rules: An Eater's Manual In Defense of Food: An Eater's Manifesto The Omnivore's Dilemma The Botany of Desire In this episode you will: Identify the hidden ingredients in "healthy" foods that are actually toxic to your body Learn why diet sodas sabotage weight loss faster than regular soda Discover the 10 trillion organisms in your gut that control your mood and metabolism Master Michael Pollan's seven-word mantra for eating real food Understand how to retrain your appetite signals to stop overeating at every meal For more information go to https://lewishowes.com/1916 For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960 Follow The Daily Motivation for essential highlights from The School of Greatness More SOG episodes we think you’ll love: Dr. David Perlmutter Glucose Goddess Dr. Jessica Knurick Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Lewis Howes?

  I think nutrition and this idea of wanting to extend our life, our lifespan, living a healthier life, living longer, is something that people are taking note of specifically in recent times after just all the different physical elements, stresses, diseases that people are accumulating in life. And I want to start with a question that I think anyone could resonate with, which is the worst foods that you think so many people are consuming that they think are healthy, which are actually really, really unhealthy for us physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually. If you had a list of three to five foods that you think people think are healthy,

• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  but actually the research, the studies are showing it's actually hurting you.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, I think the least healthy category of foods are what are called ultra-processed foods, sometimes UPFs. These are foods that are heavily processed. The reason they use the word ultra is because lots of healthy foods are processed. Cheese is processed, yogurt is processed, white flour has been processed. So there's a degree of processing that's just kind of fine. But when you get into ultra-processed foods, which often carry health claims, I mean, I'll give you an example, the Impossible Burger or the Beyond Burger, right?

• 1:26Lewis Howes?

  But super-processed, right?

• 1:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, like 21 ingredients, some of them never before in the human diet.

• 1:33Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:34Speaker 01

  And they're, you know, they're sold as plant-based. And I would always watch out for that phrase because it sounds really good. It has an aura of health around it, but how about just plant? Why plant-based?

• 1:50Lewis Howes?

  One ingredient.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  One ingredient.

• 1:52Lewis Howes?

  Carrot.

• 1:52Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:53Lewis Howes?

  One ingredient food.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's a plant-based root. And so, but in fact, it's got these 21 ingredients and lots of novel things and emulsifiers.

• 2:04Lewis Howes?

  And bonding.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, methyl cellulose is the glue that holds it together. It's, I mean, I like them, I have to say. They're tasty, they're a pretty good synthesis of meat-like experience. But it's an ultra-processed food. And we do know that ultra-processed foods as a category, which now represent more than 60% of the American diet, which is astonishing, are bad for us in many ways. And we have really good research suggesting that. And I'm not speaking any specific one. There's no research that the Beyond Burger or Impossible Burger is bad for you, but the class that it is a part of is. And so you've got people eating great amounts of this and not even knowing the difference.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  You know, a frozen pizza versus a real pizza. It looks the same, but to make it last as long as it lasts in your grocer's freezer, you have to add all sorts of chemicals to it.

• 3:02Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 3:03Speaker 01

  And products. Now, the best definition of ultra-processed food is it's made with ingredient. It's something you couldn't make at home. You don't own methylcellulose. It's not in your pantry. You don't have emulsifiers. You don't have, and you need a factory to make these foods. So if you look at the label and you see stuff you don't have in your pantry or a normal person wouldn't have in their pantry, that's an ultra-processed food. Stay away. So I would say that's the big category, the plant-based ultra-processed food. Because plant-based has this aura about it.

• 3:36Lewis Howes?

  Is there, you know, meat-based processed foods that are worse than plant-based processed? Or does it really not matter?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  I don't know that it matters. I don't think it's an important distinction.

• 3:47Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  You know, a lot of the ingredients in processed food, if you look at the label on a Twinkie, you know, they're like, I don't know, there are a lot of ingredients. A very high number of them are derived from a plant, specifically from corn. A lot of the American food system consists of growing huge amounts of corn. And this is commodity corn. This is not corn on the cob. And then using those kernels, breaking them down into its chemical constituents, and then putting them back together as processed food. So all that crap is plant-based, technically. That's where it starts. But it's so far removed from a plant as to not be healthy.

• 4:26Lewis Howes?

  So ultra-processed foods is the number one category. What would be the next category of unhealthy foods that seem to be healthy?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Sugar. I mean, I think, you know, one of the things people should pay attention to is how sugar has infiltrated foods that never used to have sugar in them. Like which types of foods? Oh, ketchup, tomato sauce, bread. Bread, you know, historically, no, it's flour, water, and yeast, or a sourdough starter. That's all you need to make bread. What is sugar doing there? The industry has discovered that if you add sugar to anything, you will sell more of it. It's magic in the marketplace. And we are, you know, hardwired by evolution to like sweetness. Sweetness in nature is a sign of nutritious food, of energy.

• 5:15Speaker 01

  You know, it's ripe fruit. And so, the problem with a lot of the modern food industry is that it takes these, you know, inborn qualities we have, like we like sweetness. We like fat, the sensation of fat, because these are, you know, flavor is the brain system for making, you know, evaluating nutrition in nature. And it works really well until you learn how to fool it. And that's essentially what food science does. We can make you think you're eating a strawberry when you're eating cardboard. Candy bars, something like that.

• 5:55Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we can think you're eating sugar, drinking sugar, when you're drinking a diet soda. One of the really interesting facts about diet sodas, of zero calorie soda, is that people don't lose weight. Why is that? Well, one of the theories is that your body, experiencing sweetness, prepares for sugar, releases insulin, and gets all ready, and then doesn't get the sugar, so you crave it, and you will get it somewhere else. You'll get it in a piece of white bread, or you'll reach for a pastry, or something like that. So you end up... Consuming just as much sugar, just not in that diet soda.

• 6:34Lewis Howes?

  So what, you know, what's worse, the diet soda or the regular soda?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  I would, if you're gonna drink soda, and soda, you know, you probably shouldn't drink or make a very special occasion food. I really don't like saying, "Don't eat anything." I think the key distinction is, is this, is this a daily routine food that you should eat whenever? Or is this a special occasion food? I would put soda in the special occasion.

• 6:58Lewis Howes?

  Sure. And if you're gonna do it then, would you do the diet soda or the regular soda?

• 7:01Speaker 01

  I would do the regular soda. Why screw around?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  No, I mean, the, there's a recent study out about erythritol, which is a, an alcohol that is, that's very sweet. And that's, and that's going into a lot of processed foods. And they've just recently found that there are various health problems associated with it. I mean, you know, our body understands sugar. Our species understands sugar. Let's stick with what we have a long history with and not go with these novelties.

• 7:32Lewis Howes?

  So why does our body think we're having something nutritious when we have something sweet, even though it's high fructose corn syrup as opposed to a fruit or a strawberry or, you know, a blueberry? Why does it think this is nutritious just because it tastes good?

• 7:47Speaker 01

  Well, because we have this, I mean, we inherited this, this, it's not one gene, but a, but a liking for sweetness, just because if, let's say you're in nature and there's a lot of berries out there and you taste some and one is like really sour or bitter. That's a sign of an alkaloid, which can be a poison. Whereas sweet is usually a sign that it's something safe to eat and will give you some energy. So in the state of nature, our senses are very well tuned to the environment and our bodies and can negotiate between the two. But once you start... Creating synthetic flavor, we're lost. Our bodies don't know.

• 8:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Now, it's interesting, we're fooling our bodies into thinking they're eating meat with some of these plant-based burgers. And what are the implications of that?

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  What are those?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  I don't know. We haven't studied that yet.

• 8:38Lewis Howes?

  So we've studied with-

• 8:39Speaker 01

  They're two no.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  We've studied with diets that are, you know, artificial sweeteners, I guess, right?

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Well, there's a very interesting study that was done at Yale, where a scientist looked at the relationship of expected sweetness and actual sweetness in- and in when the amount of sugar in a drink matched the expectation that we had, you were better off. And when it was off, either the soda- they did it with a drink, I don't know if it was a soda. If the sweetness was greater than it would be if it were sugar, or less than it would be with sugar, things went wrong.

• 9:22Lewis Howes?

  In the body.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  In the body, yeah.

• 9:24Lewis Howes?

  So it's almost like match the amount of sugar to the sensation that you have. Make sure it's pretty close.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. If you want your metabolism to work correctly. Because we have this very, you know, highly attuned insulin metabolism. And that's what goes awry when people get overweight. It's just not working right. So, you know, we shouldn't lie to our bodies. We shouldn't let our food lie to our bodies.

• 9:48Lewis Howes?

  Don't trick it and say, "This is really healthy, even though it tastes really sweet."

• 9:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 9:52Lewis Howes?

  Maybe it's not the right thing.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:53Lewis Howes?

  So how do we, I mean, we're so addicted to pleasure sensations, it seems like, physically as human beings. How do we learn to intentionally eat for pleasure and also for nutritional value, but not get caught up in eating so much sugar or processed foods that give us this heightened sense of pleasure quickly and easily?

• 10:16Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I came up with my seven-word mantra when I was trying to figure out how I should eat. Eat food, by which I mean real food. Food that isn't synthetic, that isn't lying to your body, that people have, you know, that people have been eating for a long time, that your grandmother would recognize as food, that, you know, contains ingredients that a third grader can pronounce. I mean, I have all these, you know, food rules and- And then the second part of the mantra is not too much. And that's the hard part for people. And mostly plants. And not all plants. I don't think meat is bad for you. I think it's perfectly nutritious food.

• 11:00Speaker 01

  But the more plants in your diet, the healthier you will be. Why? Well, plants have, first of all, we've been eating plants for, you know, 300,000 years. As long as we've been around as a species. It's the main thing we eat. We get, we would get lucky when we hunted and, you know, or caught animals to eat meat. But the mainstay for most diets has been plants. Plants are full of nutrients that we need. Phytochemicals of various kinds. Antioxidants, the most famous, and they're really important. And, um, and you get those, all plants produce antioxidants. They have to to survive. It's how they deal with all the solar radiation they're, they're getting. And that is cancer preventative, does all sorts of things.

• 11:44Speaker 01

  But the other thing that we're now understanding is so important about plants is that their cell walls, we know as fiber. And fiber is essential. We're, we're learning the, the biggest, the two biggest discoveries, I think, in food are, is this research around ultra-processed foods. And the other is this research around the microbiome. Yes. And that there are 10 trillion organisms you share your body with. They have the majority, actually. Right. There are more of them than there are cells of you. And that microbiome turns out to be critical to our health. 10 trillion. 10 trillion microbes in your gut. Microbes in the gut. Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  And they, um, uh, they have such a powerful effect on our health. And they, to be healthy and diverse, because you want a diverse number of species of these, uh, microbiomes. What they eat is fiber. They eat plants. They're not interested in other things. They don't. Deal with sugar, they don't deal. All the, all the kind of immediate gratification processed foods are absorbed in the small intestine very quickly. They're designed for that purpose. Ultra-processed food has little or no fiber. But fiber is what these microbes need to be healthy. And, and when they're healthy, they're producing lots of chemicals, byproducts, some of which, you know, are important to mental health, too.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  I don't think, you know, the link between the microbiome and your mind has only recently been established, but it has been established. And, for example, most of the serotonin in your body is produced in your gut. And we need that for a whole lot of different reasons. So, that's the best argument for eating lots of plants and a variety of plants, because there are many different types of fiber and many different types of antioxidants. So, the recommendation is you eat 30 different plants a week.

• 13:41Lewis Howes?

  30 different?

• 13:42Speaker 01

  It's not as hard as it sounds.

• 13:43Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 13:44Speaker 01

  Coffee is one of them.

• 13:45Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:46Lewis Howes?

  That's one, you got one plan there.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  But, I mean, there are lots of plants that you're eating without thinking about it.

• 13:52Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  And, but if you think about varying your diet, you know, you had some strawberries or blueberries this morning, you're gonna have, there's lettuce on your sandwich at lunch, there's plants in the bread of your sandwich. I mean, it's not that hard to hit 30, I think.

• 14:07Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Unless you're eating a lot of processed food.

• 14:09Lewis Howes?

  Right. Now, in terms of the, the story of longevity, living a healthy, longer life, how important is it to have meat in your diet in order to maintain muscle mass and strength as we continue to age? How important is meat for, for building muscle?

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Well, I think protein is important for building muscle, and protein is important for healing. You know, the reason that athletes consume a lot of protein after they've had a big performance is that they're rebuilding muscles that have been.

• 14:48Lewis Howes?

  Torn down.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Torn down, yeah. But you can get protein from plants, and people overlook the importance of that. You can get it from legumes or beans and tofu and things like that. And it's just harder, you have to, you have to put more thought into it. I don't know that meat is necessary for longevity. I don't know that, I haven't seen research to that effect. It's a, it's a very convenient way of getting a lot of protein. But other things come with it.

• 15:17Lewis Howes?

  I guess, I guess not for longevity, but building muscle for longevity. So that you have the strength to, you know, get back off the ground if you fall over when you're older. Or you have stronger.

• 15:27Speaker 01

  We have, you know, there, there, we've been reading about and hearing from vegan athletes. I mean, there's some very high performing vegan athletes.

• 15:35Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Which kind of gives the lie that you need meat to do this. I just think you have to be, I mean, I've had periods where I've only eaten plants. And I did crave protein sometimes. And, and so I, you know, added back in fish.

• 15:49Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And so I think it depends on you and your metabolism. Some people thrive on an all plant diet and some people simply don't. They don't feel they have enough energy.

• 15:58Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I felt I had enough energy, I just, something in me needed more protein.

• 16:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  And, and I was eating lots of tofu and tempeh, things like that. Apparently not, or my mind didn't think it was enough.

• 16:09Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 16:09Speaker 01

  So, you know, you have to listen to those signals when you get them. But, um, you know, I think if you're interested in, if longevity is your focus, and that's never been my focus. My focus has always been be as healthy as you can for as long as possible. And then have a, what is the term? Compressed morbidity or something. The shortest possible period of illness before death.

• 16:33Lewis Howes?

  That's the key. That's what Dr. Sinclair talks about.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah?

• 16:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I don't know if you're familiar with his work, David Sinclair, but he's, he talked about how his mom suffered like, I can't remember, something like a 10 year unhealthy death.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's typical in America.

• 16:49Lewis Howes?

  And, and he was like, I want it to be, you know, I'm, I'm sick and I die within a couple of days type of thing. And I live a healthy life until.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  I think that's the blessing.

• 16:57Lewis Howes?

  It's over, as opposed to how do I keep myself alive in an unhealthy way?

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:02Lewis Howes?

  For as long as possible, that's not a good life.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  And we have a medical system that's pretty good at that too. But, um, so, you know, my focus is chronic disease. I mean, just the kinds of things where people have 40 years of diabetes or something, which is not a great way to live the second half of your life, no.

• 17:19Lewis Howes?

  Is there a way to reverse diabetes?

• 17:22Speaker 01

  Type 2 diabetes can be reversed with diet and exercise. People really can put themselves on a regime and their numbers will go down and their blood glucose will improve. So, in the case of type 2, type 1 is genetic and I don't know that, I think diet's very important to maintaining yourself, but I don't know that you can reverse it.

• 17:47Lewis Howes?

  How do you navigate the pleasure signals in your, I guess, your gut or your brain telling you, or that might tell you, that tells a lot of people, here's a candy bar, here's a cookie, here's a milkshake, I want to eat this now. How have you trained your mind and your gut microbiome to not be tempted and want it and crave it consistently? Or is the craving there, but you've just created standards and food rules to support yourself in minimizing those temptations?

• 18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't know that I've worked it out completely. I mean, I have my cravings. If you ask my wife, who, you know, if there's a bag of potato chips, she'll finish it if it's open. I am fairly disciplined and some of it is just being mindful. You know, I've thought a lot about food and nutrition and I have researched it in great, you know, so asking yourself a set of questions, you know, am I still hungry or am I just enjoying eating? That's a big one, you know. Americans are socialized, I mean, think about what your mom said to you. She said, are you full when she fed you, right? She didn't say, are you satisfied? That's the right question. Or are you no longer hungry?

• 19:05Speaker 01

  Because the moment you're no longer hungry is many bites before you're full.

• 19:10Lewis Howes?

  Right, just stop eating.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Exactly, and so I often will ask myself, so, am I still hungry or am I just eating because there's more on the plate? And then I enjoy the process. And, you know, in other countries, I talk about this in my masterclass, there are sayings. In Japan, they say harahachi bu, which means eat until you're 80% full. That's interesting. And in the Arab world, they say you should eat till you're 3/4 full. In France, they don't say, parents don't say to kids, are you full, they say, do you still have hunger? And so it's a different way of socializing appetite.

• 19:51Lewis Howes?

  In America, it's like.

• 19:53Speaker 01

  Are you stuffed?

• 19:54Lewis Howes?

  Eat, eat until you cannot eat anymore.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 19:58Lewis Howes?

  Way past hunger.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  Way past hunger.

• 20:00Lewis Howes?

  And there's two more courses to come, so we gotta finish them.

• 20:03Speaker 01

  So it's, the goal is satisfaction. It's not, it's not making yourself full.

• 20:09Lewis Howes?

  How do we, how do we get to satisfaction when people have been training and conditioning themselves for decades?

• 20:16Speaker 01

  We are up against.

• 20:17Lewis Howes?

  Past.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Yes. We are up a powerful industry. I mean, I, I can't overestimate how important food marketing is. I mean, the, the industry spends like forty billion dollars getting us to eat more.

• 20:32Lewis Howes?

  It's in every commercial, it seems like.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 20:34Lewis Howes?

  It's either drugs or food.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:35Lewis Howes?

  In every TV commercial.

• 20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I bet you can't eat just one, you know, the old Lay's potato chip commercial. And, and in fact, food scientists talk about craveability as, as, as something they're designing into the food. And they can do that, they know how to do that. And they're, you know, we're being manipulated by the food science and the marketing. So it's, it's a struggle because in, in other countries, America's somewhat unique in food. Because we don't have a single old traditional food culture. You know, in most cultures, you would eat the way your parents ate growing up, the way their parents ate growing up. And people knew what food was, what wasn't food, this is what we traditionally eat.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  In America, since we're, you know, a mongrel nation, you know, drawn from so many different cultures, immigrant nation. We don't have a single dominant food culture. And I think that has left us vulnerable to marketing and to fads. And so America will change the way it eats overnight. You know, I, I remember the, the low fat craze, you know, that was like, when I was growing up, you know, fat was the evil nutrient. You shouldn't eat fat. And, and then suddenly in two thousand and two, I can, I know exactly when it happened. It was like. It's not fat that makes you fat. It's sugar that makes you fat. Carbs. So then we had the campaign against carbs.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  And overnight in 2002, and it was one article published in the New York Times.

• 22:09Lewis Howes?

  Atkins or was that?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Well, Atkins was behind it, but it was a writer named Gary Taubes. And it was like, what if it's all a big fat lie? That was a cover story in the Times.

• 22:19Lewis Howes?

  Good headline.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Good headline. And suddenly, like, donut companies were going out of business. And bread companies were going out of business because everybody was demonizing carbohydrates.

• 22:31Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 22:32Speaker 01

  And we're still kind of in that world and celebrating protein. Protein now is the good nutrient. Carbs are the evil nutrient. Fat is, depending on what world you're in. If you're in the keto world, fat's fine. If you're in the...

• 22:46Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  So, you know, we're crazy about food. We really are confused, fashion-conscious, fashion-driven. And it's no wonder because we're getting these messages. You know, the grocery store is full of foods being sold on the basis of health that aren't healthy. So no wonder we're confused. You know, the food in the supermarket that screams loudest about its virtues is all in the middle aisles. It's all processed food with packages. The healthiest food is the produce section where the food is like, you know, sitting there quietly because it doesn't have packages.

• 23:21Lewis Howes?

  By the corner, yeah, there's no packaging.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  It's intimidating.

• 23:25Lewis Howes?

  You're starting to see some like, I don't know, Apple companies putting a plastic, you know, wrapping in bags, and here's some marketing behind this.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, the real health claims should go on that stuff.

• 23:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  But of course, you know, farmers don't have money to...

• 23:40Lewis Howes?

  They don't do that, yeah.

• 23:40Speaker 01

  Research the health claims.

• 23:41Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious. It's, you know, I don't know the statistics, but you mentioned about marketing. What'd you say, 40 billion a year, is what you said, in the food industry in terms of marketing and ad spend?

• 23:50Speaker 01

  And compare that to how much the government spends informing us about health and food, the food pyramid or whatever, my plate. And it's the equivalent of a single SKU, a single product from Frito-Lay.

• 24:04Lewis Howes?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  And so, the message, any kind of health message about food is drowned out by the marketing.

• 24:11Lewis Howes?

  It's crazy. So 40 billion a year on the food industry to market to you products that... Probably 99% aren't actually healthy.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:21Lewis Howes?

  And that are formulated to scientifically get you hooked.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Get you to eat more. And, and play on your dopamine system and, you know, give you those kind of.

• 24:29Lewis Howes?

  I want this now.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  And, and people might say, well, you know, your parents cooking for you, they're also trying to get you to eat.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  But they're not trying to get you to overeat.

• 24:40Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Your parents are, are trying to satisfy you with food. And the food industry is trying to addict you with food. That's a very different approaches.

• 24:48Lewis Howes?

  Where do you think, do you know how much the medical world, the drug industry spends a year on advertising?

• 24:55Speaker 01

  I don't know that number.

• 24:56Lewis Howes?

  I'm curious what that is, but I, I'm curious your thoughts if there was a, a law that banned all food marketing and all drug marketing. Cause I believe these food marketing and the drug marketing is making us sicker. It's not helping us get to the root of healing. Uh, intuitively and organically, it's masking, it's putting over layers.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  Confusing.

• 25:18Lewis Howes?

  Confusing you. It's telling you, you're going to get healthier. But it's not the case. If there was a ban against all food marketing and all drug marketing on everywhere, TV, podcast, everywhere. Do you think the country would get healthier or what do you think would happen if there was no marketing for food or drugs?

• 25:39Speaker 01

  It's a great question. I think we'd be a lot healthier. I think we would. I think culture would step into that gap. And culture has a lot of wisdom about food. And, um, and we don't listen to it nearly enough. Or science would step into the gap too with, and we, you know, we'd get our scientific information, not from pharmaceutical companies as we do now. The other interesting phenomenon though, is how much of those pharmaceutical products you see advertised on TV are expressly designed to undo the effects of a diet.

• 26:14Lewis Howes?

  Right?

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, uh, it's a lot of them. Everything for diabetes. Is about dealing with, type 2 diabetes is a product of the food system, right? I mean, rates have gone up with obesity. And that we are spending, so we spend about three quarters of all, all spending in healthcare goes to treat chronic diseases. Of that, now some of it is smoking, some of it is smoking and alcohol.

• 26:41Lewis Howes?

  If you take out alcohol and smoking, how much is related to food?

• 26:44Speaker 01

  It's something like $500 billion out of $750 billion.

• 26:47Lewis Howes?

  Oh my gosh.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  It's a huge number.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  But how much of chronic disease is related to food and nutrition?

• 26:53Speaker 01

  Most of it, most of it.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Versus smoking, or drugs, or alcohol?

• 26:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, most of it.

• 26:58Lewis Howes?

  Eighty, ninety percent?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  No, the, the American diet, the standard American diet is what is killing most of us. That is what most people die of. And, and I'm talking about several types of cancer that are linked to it, heart disease obviously linked to diet, and diabetes, which has become a really big killer. It is, it is the way we're eating that is doing this to us. And that we could save a fortune by changing the way we eat in, in healthcare spending, and no doubt we could improve longevity as well. It's, it, it's the elephant in the room is the American food system. And we all take it to be as like normal. And, and the food still looks the same. Pizza looks like pizza, and you know, these, you know, convenient frozen dishes in the,

• 27:43Speaker 01

  in the grocer's freezer. But it's not the same. That, that, you know, that packaged ravioli or tomato sauce is not what those things were, or should be.

• 27:54Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  So, in a way, it's an easy fix, and it's a hard fix. I remember I was speaking, I was giving a speech to a group of health insurance executives. And I was trying to enlist their support for reform of the food system, which is one of my causes.

• 28:11Lewis Howes?

  They don't want that, though.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  Well, the reason was very interesting. And I was saying, you know, you guys should be allies of the, of the food reform movement, because every case of type 2 diabetes you prevent is $400,000 to your bottom line. That's how much it costs to treat each case over the life of that person.

• 28:31Lewis Howes?

  $400,000?

• 28:32Speaker 01

  $400,000 for something that can be completely prevented. And one of the presidents of these organizations came up to me after and says, you don't understand. We don't have a long-term interest in your health because the churn.

• 28:47Lewis Howes?

  My gosh.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Because the churn, because medical, contracts for medical insurance are only one year. And people are constantly switching plans and companies are constantly switching plans. So we don't, you know, you're talking about something that is gonna benefit you over years. And we don't care about that.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  And I realized there, there is a simple fix. How about five-year contracts for health insurance? That would completely change the, the, um, the incentives for the insurance company. And they would start talking to us about prevention.

• 29:21Lewis Howes?

  Interesting, because they don't, they benefit when we are sick.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know that they benefit, but they don't benefit when we, when we prevent.

• 29:30Lewis Howes?

  When we're super healthy.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  So they're not invested in preventive medicine and, and that.

• 29:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow, and the drug companies aren't.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  Oh, they, they benefit enormously for chronic disease, sure.

• 29:41Lewis Howes?

  That's the only way they make money.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, Ozempic, I mean, right, everybody's on, taking Ozempic for diabetes and weight loss now.

• 29:47Lewis Howes?

  How much money are these drug companies making?

• 29:49Speaker 01

  I don't have any figures, it's, it's a huge industry.

• 29:52Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 29:53Speaker 01

  And, um, and you know, their business model too is some drug you have to take every day of the rest of your life. And.

• 30:00Lewis Howes?

  But that doesn't cure the illness.

• 30:03Speaker 01

  No, they're, they're not cures for the illness, they're just dealing with the symptoms. And that's true for mental health drugs too.

• 30:08Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Speaker 01

  SSRIs don't cure depression. I mean, they, they, you know, tamp down symptoms when they work.

• 30:15Lewis Howes?

  What is the greatest cure for depression without, without any drugs?

• 30:21Speaker 01

  I would say exercise, it's huge, and eating real food. I think you do those two things. Now, it's not gonna work for everybody, some people have depression caused by trauma and, and, you know, all sorts of different factors. But those two things can make a huge difference. I don't think we fully recognize the mental health impacts of the way we're eating. When you're eating a diet that is, for example, has lots of sugar in it, you're gonna be on an emotional roller coaster. I mean, watch kids with sugar, you know? And, um, they think that. Chocolate or this kind of sweetened cereal makes them happy. And it does for a little while, but they crash.

• 30:59Lewis Howes?

  Five minutes and then it's chaos.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  And that's true for us, too. We have these ups and downs during the day that have a lot to do with with our sugar intake. And and then when, you know, we we get this spike and it has to do with glucose release and things like that. And then we crash and the solution to that is more, more sugar. So snacking is another thing, too. We're, you know, meals, meals are like a really good human institution. Snacking, you know, we're eating, you know, all day long.

• 31:29Lewis Howes?

  How bad is snacking for our our gut microbiome, for our brain and for our overall just metabolism? If we're eating meals and then snacking a little bit here and there in between?

• 31:41Speaker 01

  I mean, I don't think snacking is like evil or anything. And I think a lot depends on what you have. I snack. I'm a writer, so, you know, I'm at my desk. I'm supposed to get up. That's the other, that's the competing value, right? You should stand every half hour.

• 31:55Lewis Howes?

  And move a little bit.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  And where do you go? You go to the, you go to the kitchen and

• 31:59Lewis Howes?

  Have a little.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  And you you heat up your coffee or pour a cup of tea and then you have, you know.

• 32:04Lewis Howes?

  Some some nuts or some.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  I'll have a handful of nuts or dried fruit. Yeah, definitely. And I'm not like Obama. I don't count my almonds as he allegedly did. So I I think snacking, you kind of lose, you lose sight of how much you're eating. It just becomes kind of invisible. So, I mean, I think it's something that people have to be careful about, but I don't, I don't believe in being punitive about it. But I think eating meals with other people, you know, we're talking about food as if it's this transaction between us and this stuff. But meals, eating with other people affects how you eat. You, you know, when you're eating with other people, you put down the fork and talk and then you pick it up and there's more time.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  And the more time you spend eating, the more likely you are to know when you're full. It takes 20 minutes for the body to send you the news like enough, we're full.

• 33:01Lewis Howes?

  20 minutes.

• 33:02Speaker 01

  20 minutes. So if you're eating really fast, you're defeating that signal. And so you're eating too much. But if you have a leisurely meal, you're much more likely to to realize, you know, I think I've had enough.

• 33:13Lewis Howes?

  It's interesting because I was just having a breakfast meeting this morning and it probably went for about an hour and a half, right? And it was a great. Meeting and meal because I noticed that I did not finish my plate.

• 33:28Speaker 01

  I was engaged.

• 33:29Lewis Howes?

  I was engaged, I was talking and then I eat a little bit when they were talking, you know, and have a few bites and then I would, you know, have my fork here with food and be like talking to them and just like, okay, let me listen and engage. And it got to the point, and I didn't have a lot. I had two eggs, scrambled eggs, I had a couple pieces of bacon and I had some, you know, potatoes, kind of the standard breakfast. Yeah, exactly, right?

• 33:52Lewis Howes?

  And I, and I was eating the potatoes and I was like, huh, okay, I'm getting pretty full. And I just left the last potato. And I was just like, let me just experiment. I left it on the table and I could have eaten it easily. But I left it because I was like, I actually feel pretty satisfied.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Well, that clean plate ethic is really bad. I mean, why? I mean, when you're done eating, it's okay if you leave something on the plate. And in fact, it's a good practice. Just make a point. I'm not going to eat the last thing on my plate.

• 34:21Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 34:22Speaker 01

  As an exercise.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  Now, what if you're like, well, I don't want to waste food.

• 34:25Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I know, and that's what we were brought up. People are starving in Korea or whatever, you know, the thing you heard from your parents. And it's not going to help them if you leave a potato. Maybe you should take less at the beginning or maybe, you know, portion size is a huge problem.

• 34:39Lewis Howes?

  Huge. Don't get the appetizers, don't get the desserts, you know, have.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  We tend to think that the amount of food put in front of us is the proper amount to eat.

• 34:47Lewis Howes?

  It's usually probably double what we're supposed to eat.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and for food, for restaurants, they've learned that we appreciate ampleness and the cost of the food is one of their lowest costs. And so they give us portions that are too big and we, we compliment a restaurant for having big portions.

• 35:05Lewis Howes?

  You feel like you're getting more for your value?

• 35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, you feel, you feel you're getting good value. And, and the economics definitely work for the restaurants, but it doesn't work for us. So we end up, big portions are definitely part of, part of our problem.

• 35:18Lewis Howes?

  So you mentioned before, you know, two great ways to minimize or.

• 35:24Lewis Howes?

  Decreased depression for a human being is healthy nutrition and exercise. Those two things.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Getting some sunlight is really good, too.

• 35:34Lewis Howes?

  Sunlight, probably quality sleep as well.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I mean, people are depressed often have trouble sleeping. But one of the ways to fix your circadian rhythms is make sure every morning you look at the sun. You go outside, even if it's cloudy, just look at where it should be. And that that information comes through your eyes to your brain and kind of sets your clock. And it will improve your sleep.

• 35:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, Dr. Andrew Huberman has done a lot of research on that. And preaches it almost every day about the research.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  That and breathing, yeah. He says that's the number, his number one health tip is get outside and look at the sun.

• 36:08Lewis Howes?

  First thing in the morning, right? Not when it's already up and you can't look at it.

• 36:12Speaker 01

  And it's okay if you didn't get up at dawn, but you know, before midday.

• 36:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, get up for 10, 15 minutes and look towards the sun, right? Just allow your eyes to gaze towards it.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  And you'll be getting outside and you'll be getting some vitamin D. Because we spend way too much time inside. Being outside is, you know, I mean, exercising outside, I think, is better for us than inside.

• 36:34Lewis Howes?

  What do you think is the root cause of depression? Why someone could get depressed or chronic depression? Because we all go through sadness and grief and loss and heartache and, you know, relationships and deaths and, you know, career ending, things like that where there might be a season of sadness. But the chronic depression, what is the root cause of that?

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I don't think we know. You know, there are people looking for the genes implicated in depression. They have not had success finding them. There is depression caused by events. People with a cancer diagnosis get depressed. We understand exactly why. And if they're healed or cured, their depression might lift. But then you have other people, and I've interviewed them in my, in my research on psychedelics, who've been depressed for 30 years without a break. And I don't think we really understand that.

• 37:20Lewis Howes?

  It's exhausting on the nervous system.

• 37:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:23Lewis Howes?

  On the brain, on the heart.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  Oh, no, every system, every system. But I don't think we have a real understanding of what's going on. I mean, one of the things I've learned about mental health is that there's a lot we don't understand. We don't even know if depression, anxiety, addiction, and say OCD are separate diseases? Or are they four different symptoms of the same underlying disease? Which is to say a mind that is too rigidly, you know, bound up and stuck in patterns of rumination. They're all characterized by rigidity and strong habits.

• 38:01Lewis Howes?

  A controlling nature almost, right?

• 38:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, an attempt to control nature. And they're also characterized by these destructive narratives that people tell about themselves. So, you know, they're in the DSM, you know, the Bible of diagnoses. They're listed as separate things, but I've talked to psychiatrists who say no, they may all be the same thing.

• 38:24Lewis Howes?

  Susan David talks about emotional agility, having the ability to, you know, be flexible with our emotions and not be so rigid.

• 38:33Speaker 01

  Habits, yeah, habits get us into trouble with food certainly and with our mental health. And habits are really valuable. I mean, they can organize your life, they can save you from having to run, you know, run the algorithm every time a new situation comes up. It's like, okay, this is a conversation with my boss. This is the kind of thing that works, you know, you have a habit. But they also are straitjackets.

• 39:00Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  And the older we get, the harder it is to break habits. And that's one of the really interesting things about psychedelic medicine. I'm not talking about psychedelics used recreationally, but when they're used in a therapeutic context, people seem to be able to break habits, the thought and behavior.

• 39:19Lewis Howes?

  Interesting.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  And that's really powerful.

• 39:21Lewis Howes?

  And that allows you to start taking different consistent actions, which gets you different emotional results.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  Exactly, and you can basically lay down the, you know, the pathways of new habits, which, you know, becomes more and more important as we age.

• 39:35Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever felt extreme depression in your life?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  I have had periods. I don't know that they were extreme, but I've definitely had periods that I can remember where I was depressed or anxious. I had periods when I, as a teenager, I was a very anxious teenager. And then experienced some depression in my, I would say in my twenties. And not so much since then. And I do-

• 40:01Lewis Howes?

  Why do you think you have a pretty, you know, harmonious emotional environment internally?

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Well, you're, you know, you're assuming that's the case, but thank you.

• 40:13Lewis Howes?

  Well, if you're not in depressed states, then you have to be at least neutral.

• 40:16Speaker 01

  I'm definitely not in depressed states and I'm definitely not in an anxious state. And I think a lot of it owes to the fact that I'm mindful about my health, which means exercise. And, I mean, I do a couple of things. I have a whole regime. So I eat real food, not too much, mostly plants. I struggle with the not too much because I love to eat. But if you're eating real food, it's less of an issue. You know, overeating, you know, a vegetable stir fry is not going to get you in trouble the way overeating a pizza is.

• 40:46Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, or a whole cake or something.

• 40:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, and I don't have a big sweet tooth luckily.

• 40:50Lewis Howes?

  That's not, I wish I had that disease.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I don't crave dessert and, and I often, I rarely do have dessert.

• 40:58Lewis Howes?

  That's a gift. Okay, so you eat real food?

• 41:00Speaker 01

  So food, eating real food, exercising at least 30 minutes a day. And I do aerobic exercise and I do, you know, floor and weight work.

• 41:10Lewis Howes?

  I mean, it's amazing the benefits of moving 30 minutes a day on how much more joy, excited, excited you can be, how much more peaceful, how much more gratifying.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  It's the best drug there is.

• 41:24Lewis Howes?

  It just makes you feel better. So if you don't feel good, move.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  It's so important. There was a study that came out just a couple of weeks ago that said 11 minutes of walking will improve your longevity and improve your health in general. 11 minutes. So it doesn't have to be a lot. It doesn't have to be... You don't have to be running. You can be walking. So, exercise.

• 41:56Lewis Howes?

  Eat real food.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  And the last thing is I meditate. And I meditate about 25 minutes a day, preceded by some breathing exercises. And, you know, that's stress reduction. You know, the other thing people don't talk about, and it's very hard to quantify, is social connection.

• 42:14Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  And loneliness. The Surgeon General Vivek Murphy has really made this his cause. He wrote a really good book on loneliness. And that people without social connection or who are mediating their social connection through social media, which isn't the same thing.

• 42:35Lewis Howes?

  You're not connected.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  You're not really connected. You have faux friends. You have faux connection. But that's really important. And having some sort of social group that supports you in some ways. And so those four things, I think, are so important. So cultivating your friendships is huge.

• 42:56Lewis Howes?

  How many people have you studied or worked with who have been in emotionally depressed states that started doing these four things, essentially? The three things plus deepening their intimate relationships, saw improvement?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  Oh, many, many people. I mean, I've seen this over and over again. You know, I'm not a scientist, so I haven't researched it and obviously haven't done a control. But I've seen it in my friends. I've seen it in relatives.

• 43:27Speaker 01

  It's, it can do a lot for people. And by the way, it, we have evidence that the regime I'm just describing has very positive effects on people's cardiovascular health. Dean Ornish has done a lot of research using that, pretty much that regime, those four things, although he insists on a totally plant-based diet. And I think it should be substantially plant-based. And, and he has also done that with men with prostate cancer. And has found, prostate cancer is a very interesting case because many people are not treated for it since, you know, it doesn't, it's often doesn't advance.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  So it's one of the rare cancers that people live with for years and can be studied while they're being surveilled for it. So we can look at lifestyle interventions and see if they make a difference. So UCSF put several thousand men on this regime with a control to see if it would have an effect. And indeed, it slowed the progression of their disease and lowered their PSA scores, which is a marker of prostate cancer.

• 44:36Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  So, and he, Dean Ornish is now trialing this with a group of people just diagnosed with Alzheimer's to see if it has an effect on the progression of their disease. So.

• 44:47Lewis Howes?

  With, with eating real food, exercise, and meditation?

• 44:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, some kind of, it doesn't have to be meditation, some kind of stress reduction. It could be yoga.

• 44:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, breath work.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  Breath work. It's all those techniques we have to, to essentially lower stress.

• 45:01Lewis Howes?

  Wow, I think, I love this prescription. You know, this organic intuitive prescription.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  It's too bad doctors don't talk about it more too.

• 45:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think the, the other elephant in the room that we, you know, kind of hit on a little bit is the trauma. You know, because I think you can eat well, you can exercise, you can meditate, you can have social connections. But if there's still trauma stored in our memories or in our body.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  In our bodies, yeah.

• 45:29Lewis Howes?

  It can take us farther, but not, but it can still, we can still be pulled back into the trauma. And I think, because I did all these things for many years. But I still hadn't faced certain traumatic.

• 45:42Lewis Howes?

  Memories, I hadn't created new meaning from those memories. I hadn't processed them, I hadn't fully addressed them. I didn't fully unpack and talk about them and have catharsis and emote in those feelings and grieve and go through the wide range of emotions of traumatic moments in my life. How did you end up doing that? I did that in the last couple of years. It's been a 10-year journey of healing traumatic experiences. 10 years ago, I opened up about being sexually abused as a kid when I was five. It's one of my first memories, actually. And for most of my life, that emotional and psychological wound was a memory playing in my mind almost daily. You know, it would just kind of come up and I would just push it away and work really hard.

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  So it was present, it wasn't a suppressed trauma? It was constantly present, but I would try to run away from it. I'd try to outwork it. I would try to, you know, be a workaholic in sports and achieve and succeed to validate I'm worthy, lovable, and enough. Yeah. But it wasn't until I hit 30, when I had lots of breakdowns in my life, that I realized I had never addressed it or told anyone. And so I went down a process, and I've talked about this many times on my show and publicly, but I went down a process of facing the trauma, you know. With the help of therapists? I did it in an emotional intelligence workshop initially, so kind of a safer environment

• 47:07Lewis Howes?

  in a group setting, and then worked with therapists to unpack it more and process that healing. And then I ended up writing about it in a previous book, The Mask of Masculinity, I had talked about, where I feel like a lot of men suffer from trauma that they never express, they never talk about it in a healthy way. And so I was able to unpack that, but then there were more things over the last 10 years that I needed to face that I was unwilling to, or I thought maybe I'd done all the work. In the last couple of years, it was really kind of healing the pain in my heart in other ways through...

• 47:41Lewis Howes?

  Emotional coaching sessions, but very intense. You know, three to five hour sessions on every Saturday for months. Because I wanted peace and freedom in my heart. Again, I ate well, I exercised well, I'm healthy. But emotionally, psychologically, spiritually, there was wounds that I hadn't yet mended. I hadn't yet healed and created new meaning. As Viktor Frankl talks about, it's creating that meaning behind these traumatic events. And I think the healing of the trauma, for me, has brought me so much peace. Psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually, and physically. I was physical pain in my chest, in my throat, that would come and go. That now, I haven't felt in almost two years.

• 48:25Lewis Howes?

  And for most of my life, you know, thirty eight years, I felt pain. Palpitations off and on, depending on life's circumstances. And now, with some of the most chaotic events in life. A book launch, moving into a new home, buying a home. You know, I just turned forty, like all these kind of like events, life events, I feel peaceful. And the only way that I could attribute the peace. Now, it doesn't mean I don't have moments of stress and overwhelm. But the way I feel peaceful is because I've been doing so much of the healing trauma work. But been willing to say, I'll do anything. I'll try, I'll say anything, I'll try things, whatever type of emotional experiences you want me to go through.

• 49:07Lewis Howes?

  Healing the inner child wound, you know, having spiritual experiences with my five year old self, my twelve year old self. Whatever it is, having those conversations, I've been doing that. And that has given me a sense of peace and freedom that I've never felt in my life. And that's why I was interested about psychedelics, and the topic of psychedelics. Because I have lots of friends, and I swear by it. I've been in ceremonies, I've sat in ceremonies and watched people. I've seen everything been passed around, I've seen people like go, you know, hallucinate. I've seen people throwing up, I've seen people crying, I've seen people releasing, I've seen these things. And I've been curious about them, but I've always been.

• 49:47Lewis Howes?

  Weary of recommending or suggesting these things because I've one never done it. And I don't want to recommend something, but I'm also curious about the long term potential side effects of an out, an external drug putting into the body and how that affects the brain, the heart, the emotions and all these different things. And I love your example of having these breakthrough moments for people to change their habits, which I think is necessary for healing and shifting our behavior. And my thought is, is there a way to do that emotionally, spiritually and psychologically? And try everything else first before doing psychedelics?

• 50:30Lewis Howes?

  Or should people go right into therapeutic psychedelics without trying all the other types of therapeutic experiences first?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think there's a, it's a one size fits all. I mean, different for, you know, it takes a lot of courage to do what you did.

• 50:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it was painful and scary and

• 50:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:49Lewis Howes?

  You feel like you're gonna die.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:51Lewis Howes?

  Emotionally.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  And so some people are not going to be able to do that. They're not going to have the commitment or the, or fear is going to get in the way of doing it. I've been researching psychedelic therapy since 2014. I too had never used psychedelics and was really afraid of them. I had a series of experiences for my books on psychedelics. How to Change Your Mind and then This is Your Mind on Plants. The night before every one of those experiences, I was

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  Terrified.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  I was up all night. I was, you know, cause you know, you

• 51:30Speaker 01

  the self, the inner self is a really scary place to go.

• 51:33Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Right?

• 51:34Lewis Howes?

  Terrifying.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:36Lewis Howes?

  There's a darkness in there.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  And you're opening a door and you don't know what's gonna be on the other side of that door.

• 51:40Lewis Howes?

  It's terrifying.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  I found in the event that they were Powerful and really interesting experiences. And I have not yet on psychedelics had the experience of, I've had some dark experiences and kind of wrestling matches with certain things. But I haven't had the experience, some people do, which is a trauma that they were not aware of comes up.

• 52:04Lewis Howes?

  Come up, yeah.

• 52:05Speaker 01

  And that can be really destabilizing if you're not being held in a therapeutic relationship. In other words, if you're not with a facilitator or guide who can help you, it can be incredibly productive when it comes up because now you know, oh, there's the problem.

• 52:20Lewis Howes?

  Awareness, yeah.

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're aware.

• 52:22Lewis Howes?

  But if you don't have an ongoing integrative therapeutic process afterwards, you could downward spiral.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  You could, and it's really important, I think, to, if people are going to explore psychedelics, to deal with their mental difficulties, that they do it with somebody who is well-trained.

• 52:36Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  And in the specific case of trauma, which I think is much more widespread in our society than we realize.

• 52:46Lewis Howes?

  Because there's big Ts and little t trauma. There's, you know, there's traumatic events and then there's just the feeling of abandonment by your parents, like a little...

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, or you had an alcoholic parent and, you know, that's, you can't point to one event, but it's an ongoing...

• 52:59Lewis Howes?

  They weren't abusing you, but it was an abusive experience.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So what has proven most effective is MDMA in the treatment of trauma.

• 53:09Lewis Howes?

  What does that stand for again?

• 53:12Speaker 01

  I don't know. I'm sorry.

• 53:15Lewis Howes?

  It's a short...

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I should know that. But it's also known as ecstasy or Molly. That's the street name. But it's MDMA, it's a drug that's been around since the 30s. People don't realize it was used in psychotherapy in the 70s and early 80s until it was banned in 1985. And that's when it became a very popular rave drug. And the DEA just cracked down on it and said, "We're not gonna..." But it was, you know, it was being used effectively in therapy. There are now two-phase-three studies, that's the last phase before approval, showing that about two-thirds of the people who have been diagnosed with PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Who have guided MDMA trips, usually two, lose that diagnosis. In other words, they don't qualify for a diagnosis of PTSD anymore. That's an astonishing result, two thirds. Right. So that, I think, is going to be a powerful tool. And it is going to be approved by the FDA in the next couple of years. Some people say next year. Wow. Because the data is in and the data is very strong. So that's an encouraging thing. Because the kind of, you know, we have soldiers who've been traumatized. Yes. We have women who've been traumatized by sexual abuse. We have racial trauma in this country. And we may have a powerful new tool to treat it.

• 54:41Speaker 01

  On the, on the risk of taking in these foreign substances. Right. And how that affects the brain chemistry. Yeah. You know, long-term effects. I don't think people realize this, but most drugs have what's called an LD-50. The, the amount of the drug you take where 50% of the rats or whatever it is die. The lethal dose, okay? LD stands for lethal dose. Wow. There is no lethal dose of psilocybin or LSD or DMT. That's astonishing. You can't. You can't overdose. You can't overdose. You can get crazy. You can't die. You can't die. Well, maybe you could, I mean, who knows? Maybe there's a certain amount, you just take it, your brain just. There is one, one reported case of, and this is a horrible story, of shooting up

• 55:24Speaker 01

  an elephant with LSD, with huge amounts of LSD. Oh, man. And it died. But it also had received huge amounts of a, of a tranquilizer. So it's not really. Right. Useful information. But there's a lot of safety data on these drugs. And I don't think people know or realize that there are over the counter drugs that have, that can be lethal. That it's only about 17 or 20 pills of Tylenol and you can kill yourself. Wow. Okay? The equivalent amount of LSD is not going to do that. So. Brain toxicity, you know, unless we're missing something and it's gonna take, you know, but people have been using LSD for a long time. They've been using ayahuasca,

• 56:09Speaker 01

  which has DMT in it, and they've been using psilocybin for thousands of years.

• 56:15Lewis Howes?

  But just because they've been doing it for thousands of years, does that mean it's good for the brain and your emotional state long term?

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, no, but I think that if it were, you know, having consistent patterns of damage of some kind, we would have, we would have picked it up.

• 56:31Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 56:32Speaker 01

  MDMA is a little more toxic, but the thing to understand about psychedelic therapy is like, I mean, we should be asking the same questions of SSRIs and all the antipsychotic drugs.

• 56:45Lewis Howes?

  Hundred percent.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Which people take every day.

• 56:48Lewis Howes?

  Now, I have friends who have been, you know, doing shrooms and ayahuasca and all these different things for years, and some of them swear by it. They say like, "This is the answer. This is helpful. This is like giving me clarity. It's showing me visions. It's helping me like face traumas, things like that," which I'm all for those things. But my, my curiosity comes in when someone needs to do these things over and over and over again, as opposed to, okay, I've got the awareness, which is what I need. It's pulling out the, the stuff from the past that I wasn't even aware of, or the things that I needed to face. Now I've had these moments of clarity, darkness, visioning, all these different things that allowed me to open my heart, express these things, release.

• 57:31Lewis Howes?

  I'm all for that. It's when people need to do it over and over again, every month or every six months, and go back to like some, you know, psychedelic retreat, which gets me wondering why.

• 57:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:43Lewis Howes?

  Why do you need to continue to do it every six months, every year consistently? When you've started to face it, is there other emotional or psychological therapies they can do to process and integrate healing without external chemicals entering the body and the brain?

• 58:00Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 58:01Lewis Howes?

  That's my thoughts.

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. I mean, there are people who, I mean, it depends on why people are using it, okay? You talk about healing, and that should be, have an arc, right?

• 58:10Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  And, you know, you get the message and then you hang up the phone, as Ram Dass or somebody like that said when he stopped using psychedelics. And then there are other people who get into, I mean, you could call it a habit. They don't use them every day, they don't use them every week. Their experiences, you don't feel like using it again. I mean, when you have a big psychedelic experience, your first thought, this isn't like using a drug like cocaine or something. Your first thought is not, where can I get some more? Your first thought is, do I ever have to do this again? Because it's really hard work.

• 58:41Lewis Howes?

  It's intense.

• 58:42Speaker 01

  But there are people who have a regular journey. And sometimes there are people who are using psychedelics, not for healing, but for, say, spiritual development.

• 58:53Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  And spiritual exploration.

• 58:57Speaker 01

  And I think that's legit, too. I really do. You know, I would be nervous about somebody who is using psychedelics every month and wondering why. Is there something missing from their lives that they should be attending to? Is that becoming its own problem? But they're, you know, they're very strange substances. They have, they can have many different identities depending on the context in which they're used. So, you know, there is a powerful religious context for most of history. That's how they were used. There were sacraments, they were used to be in touch with the divine. And that's very different than the healing context. And then there are people who take them just for thrills.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  And, you know, that seems to me, you know, the least interesting.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  But we use this word recreational use of a drug. What's wrong with recreation?

• 59:52Speaker 01

  Why did that get such a negative connotation? So.

• 59:56Lewis Howes?

  I still don't think it's, you know, I'm trying not to judge, because I'm trying to see what is most beneficial to our health.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:04Lewis Howes?

  And so if there's massive benefits to our immediate and long-term health, then I'm all open to exploring that.

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  And I think it's too soon to say.

• 1:00:12Lewis Howes?

  And that's the thing. I grew up.

• 1:00:16Lewis Howes?

  Rarely taking any drugs, you know.

• 1:00:21Lewis Howes?

  And the belief was the mind, we have the power to heal ourselves with our thoughts, our mind, and the body's pharmacy has so many healing components. And I'm sure as a meditator, you've gone through some beautiful visioning and some beautiful spiritual experiences by closing your eyes, meditating and breathing intently as well. And so my thought is, are there ways to do this without recreational drugs, therapeutic drugs, you know, drugs in general to heal versus doing it from inside out?

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there are. I mean, you know, I mean, there's an interesting question whether a drug produced by the body, like endorphins after you exercise, is, you know, superior to a drug that comes from outside. Aldous Huxley wrote about this in Doors of Perception. They're all chemical events, right? Whatever's happening. And so endogenous versus exogenous chemicals, how significant is that? But there are other ways to get there. I mean, meditators, really experienced meditators, get into a psychedelic state. There are breathing exercises, there's something called holotropic breath work, which is a form of breathing based on yogic techniques that I've done it and will give you a psychedelic experience.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Not everybody, but a high percentage of people. It's kind of uncanny, you know, how this works. You are doing something to your blood chemistry, though, when you hyperventilate. That's what's happening. I think you're, either the acidity or alkalinity is increasing as you reduce the carbon dioxide. I don't know the physiology of it. Fasting can get you there. Isolation tanks, for some people, can get you there.

• 1:02:10Lewis Howes?

  Dark spaces, like caves.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you remove all sensory input. People who go on vision quests and, you know, they're alone in nature for a long time and they're not eating, they will have psychedelic experiences. So, you know, we're wired for these experiences and there are other ways to get there and psychedelics is one way.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  But I would, you know, I would press against this idea of, you know, toxicity though, because there's not a lot of evidence or addictive potential. They're, they're, they've been shown not to be addictive. There are absolute risks. People at any risk for schizophrenia or personality disorders are not allowed in the, in the, in the current drug trials. And people can have terrifying experiences.

• 1:02:57Lewis Howes?

  And what happens if you have a, you know, maybe you're not, maybe you haven't been clinically diagnosed as bipolar, but you might have some bipolar tendencies. Maybe you're not diagnosed as narcissistic, but you have narcissistic tendencies or, you know, extreme mood swings or depressive states. People like that, could it get them off the track?

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  It could. People have had psychotic breaks on LSD trips. I mean, we saw that in the 60s. There were, you know, admissions to psychiatric, you know, hospitals and things.

• 1:03:32Lewis Howes?

  And it's really hard to come back from that, right?

• 1:03:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, although there's some debate over whether these are people who would have eventually had a break. And that, you know, it's not like incidents of schizophrenia went up when people started using LSD. Any kind of mental shock can, can put people over. And LSD is, is a big shock to the system. So that can definitely happen. And, you know, look, people should approach this with great care. It's very consequential. It's momentous to decide, I'm gonna have a high dose psychedelic experience. You should, you should be with someone who knows the territory, who can prepare you properly. Scary things can happen, but if you know how to deal with it, you can navigate those things. And often the results at the end are, make it worth it.

• 1:04:17Speaker 01

  So, you know, I, I'm loath to recommend anybody do anything, but I also think that people should know how many people are being healed by this. And that... The thing we have to keep in mind is that mental health treatment is just not very good in this country.

• 1:04:36Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  You know, I mean, you know, even with, I mean, the access issues and insurance and all that, there's that problem. But the problem is, and I've heard this from psychiatrists who I've interviewed, it's like, they'll tell you, we don't have very good tools. If you compare mental health treatment to any other branch of medicine, oncology, cardiology, infectious disease, they have all prolonged human life and relieved lots of suffering in the last 50 years. You can't say that about mental health treatment. We're kind of where we were. We have SSRIs, which we throw at everything.

• 1:05:09Lewis Howes?

  What are those?

• 1:05:09Speaker 01

  There's selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, antidepressants, Paxil.

• 1:05:16Lewis Howes?

  But those antidepressants, how, do they have any benefit? Because I feel like people who are on antidepressants don't have, like, it doesn't actually work. Or maybe it's like, they feel for a few weeks or a month, like, some benefit, but then it's like, you're still depressed.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  Well, it gets people out of crises very often, if someone's, you know, having a suicidal crisis. But the evidence on, they don't work very well. I mean, there's some people they help. They're, when they were approved in the early 80s, late 70s, they did two percentage points better than placebo. I mean, trivial benefit. But we didn't have anything else.

• 1:05:53Lewis Howes?

  So was something.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  And they got hyped by the industry.

• 1:05:55Lewis Howes?

  But it's not healing, the root cause.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  It doesn't, it doesn't affect the root cause.

• 1:05:59Lewis Howes?

  So it's minimizing some of the effect.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  It's lowering symptoms for some people, not for everybody. But over time, the effect goes down.

• 1:06:07Lewis Howes?

  And then you need more and more, you need some other drug.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Or you switch to another one. The other problems with it is that it decreases your libido. You put on weight, and they're very hard to get off. They're addictive in effect. So if you want to talk about toxicity to the body, I mean, that's a bigger issue than LSD or psilocybin.

• 1:06:26Lewis Howes?

  Sure. What would you? Recommend or suggest before people get on some type of antidepressant that they try on, that they experiment with, that they apply for, you know, a 30 day window before, I'll say, okay, I'm just gonna jump into.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Well, that regime we talked about, you know, eat real food, get half hour of exercise a day, some sort of stress reduction technique, sunlight, and, and social connection. And, and the problem with people who are depressed is they tend to lose their social connections.

• 1:07:00Lewis Howes?

  They don't have their connections.

• 1:07:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, they're, they're often lonely, yeah, yeah. But I would, I, I think that's the first line of defense. And, and, you know, right now, it's important to understand too, that even though psilocybin is being trialed, doing drug trials for depression, it hasn't been approved yet. So it's still illegal, and that's something you have to take into account.

• 1:07:21Lewis Howes?

  Gotcha.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  You, you have to work with someone underground, and that has its own set of risks.

• 1:07:26Lewis Howes?

  Sure. You know, speaking of people feeling lonely, people, it seems like there's more social anxiety and loneliness than ever, even though they're more connected or seemingly false connected with social media. What would you suggest for people to overcome the feeling of loneliness?

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  Well, it takes us back to food, meals, the institution of meals. Eat with other people, don't eat alone, find somebody, invite someone out to have a meal with, or cook and invite people into your home. So much happens at the table that isn't about fueling your body. And that there is a kind of connection that happens when we eat together that's really wonderful. It's deeper than a lot of other connections we have, you know. And when we share something, when we share food out of the same common, you know, dish, we're connecting, that's a connection. Sharing food is a very powerful bond between people. It has been for like thousands of years. And we, you know, we learn things about other people.

• 1:08:27Speaker 01

  We, you know, why do world leaders always have banquets, right? It's because going back a thousand years, it's a time where, you know, you don't shoot someone over a banquet table. You know, you put down your arms and you pick up your fork and knife.

• 1:08:42Lewis Howes?

  You connect, yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 01

  You connect. And there, I, I just think the meal is one of the great institutions. And it, and it helps us deal not only with. Healthier eating, because you're not gonna eat junk food. You're not gonna eat a microwaveable food in front of someone else. You're gonna cook something or order in and eat the same thing. And that sharing puts us on the same mental wavelength. It's almost like in training ourselves to someone else, that we're eating the same thing together. And so I think putting yourself, you know, way too many of us eat alone now. And I think it's really destructive to eat alone. When you eat alone, you eat mindlessly. You're in front of the TV, or you're reading something, and you're, you just don't know what you're doing. I mean, think about, you know,

• 1:09:27Speaker 01

  you're in front of the TV with a bag of potato chips. Like, you don't even realize you've eaten a bag. It's just so mindless. Also, manners automatically helps people control their appetites. People don't wanna act like pigs at a table. Yeah, whereas when you eat alone, you do act like a pig. So getting away from solitary eating. Yeah, crumbs all over your belly, you're just like, ah, just eating it, yeah. Exactly. You know, in this, in this class I did for MasterClass, we're looking at not just the health effects of food, although those are very important, but there are all these other effects. And that there are ways to align your eating with your values. And we all have different values.

• 1:10:12Speaker 01

  And some people, food is just gonna be about health. But for other people, it's about their relationship to nature, for example. You know, are they, are they eating organically or sustainably? Is that what matters to them? And for others, it's about ethics. Is this a way, do I feel comfortable eating animals? Or these animals? So there's, there are moral and ethical questions that come. So much happens at the table. And, and my, and so where I came out thinking about this and preparing the class is there's no one right way to eat. There's probably a right way to eat if health is your only concern. But if you're thinking about these other things,

• 1:10:56Speaker 01

  and eating for pleasure is a perfectly legitimate reason. It argues for slightly different kinds of food. Sure. How does someone come up with their?

• 1:11:07Lewis Howes?

  Eating values.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  Well, that's a process of kind of self-inquiry. I mean, and we go through that in the class about like, so what really matters to you when you, when you think about food? You know, are you, are you someone who thinks a lot about nature and climate change? There's a way to eat if you really wanna, you know, make your contribution to reduce climate change. There are foods that have a big climate footprint and foods that don't. Beef is the, is of course, the worst offender. And milk, you know, that, that, that's a huge part of your climate footprint is, is if you're a beef eater. But maybe you're concerned about the health of the soil and, and, and what about social justice? The health of the workers in the food system? That argues for slightly different choices, too.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  What's great about food, though, is that we're not stuck with one choice. We now, we're very lucky because there are now, you know, there's organic food, there's conventional food, there's what's called regenerative food, grown on very healthy soils, that we can, we have an opportunity to express our values by our food choices. That's a great vote to have, you know? We're really lucky to have that vote. Cause there are many parts of life we don't have that vote to make.

• 1:12:19Lewis Howes?

  Right. What are, what are your food values?

• 1:12:22Speaker 01

  Well, I think a lot about the environment. I started out as a writer, writing about nature and gardening and, and so, and I'm very concerned about climate change. And I don't know how you can not be, but a lot of us do not. And so that I, I think a lot about the environmental impact of, of what I eat. So I don't eat beef. I eat very little meat, I mostly eat fish. And I'm careful about that, too, because some fish is, you know, really unsustainably produced. You know, some farm salmon is just... Horrible the way it's produced, not just for the fish, but for the environment with lots of antibiotics. I will choose organic when I'm buying plant foods.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Organic is not a perfect label, but it's one of the only labels that's monitored by the government. And so you know that if you buy organic food, it has not been grown with synthetic pesticides. I'm particularly insistent on buying organic wheat products, whether that's pasta or bread. The reason being that it's become common practice in America to spray wheat fields with glyphosate, which is an herbicide that has been linked to lymphoma. The farmers do, it's not allowed in Europe. Farmers do it for the express purpose. They spray it on the wheat fields right before harvest to kill the wheat because the wheat has to be dry before you can harvest it.

• 1:13:50Speaker 01

  So it speeds up that process. It's a really irresponsible use of a pesticide.

• 1:13:54Lewis Howes?

  Why are there so many things in the American food system that don't happen in Europe, that are legal in other countries?

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. But here... Hormones in beef, for example. I mean, every non-organic beef animal gets a hormone implant in its neck. And then we wonder why girls are going through puberty early. I mean, we are exposing ourselves to lots of hormones through our meat. And that's not allowed in Europe either. Europe has tougher environmental rules, especially around food and cosmetics, believe it or not. There are chemicals in our cosmetics that you can't put in European cosmetics.

• 1:14:35Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:36Speaker 01

  It's the power of the American food industry. It is dominant. They control Congress, they control the agricultural committees. So there have been efforts to ban glyphosate, there have been efforts to, you know, get hormones out of beef, and the industry has stopped it.

• 1:14:52Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  And the reason for that is we've allowed these industries to get so powerful and monopolistic.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  That we had a great example during the pandemic when there were outbreaks of COVID in the meat plants in the high plains, Tyson's meat plants. The local public health authorities, so many people were dying on those lines and they were bringing COVID into their communities. The local health authorities wanted to close down the lines for two weeks and just quiet. This is right at the beginning of the pandemic. John Tyson, the president of Tyson, takes out an ad, a full-page ad in the New York Times, "Dear Mr. President, you need to invoke the Defense Production Act, which is designed to get companies to do things they don't want to do to help the war effort.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  We want you to invoke the Defense Production Act to force our workers back on the line."

• 1:15:48Lewis Howes?

  Come on.

• 1:15:49Speaker 01

  And within days, President Trump signed an executive order, opening up the Tyson production lines. So when a company can force a president to do its bidding, you know an industry's gotten too powerful.

• 1:16:06Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:08Lewis Howes?

  This is crazy. What is the things that you've seen 10 years ago in the nutritional food world that people thought was the way? Science, you know, society thought this was the way, that we now have new evidence and new science showing that that's not the way and there's something different that is the way? Is there anything that's changed in the last 10 or 20 years?

• 1:16:35Speaker 01

  The biggest thing is something we talked about right at the beginning is ultra-processed food. And we didn't, you know, we'd heard for years that junk food was bad for us and we thought the reason was there was too many, too much sugar, too much fat, too much salt. It turns out it's not about the nutrients, it's about the processing itself and all the chemicals that are used. And this was, and that this is what's making us fat.

• 1:16:59Lewis Howes?

  The processing itself, not the actual sugar.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  So there was a really cool experiment done at the National Institute of Health by a scientist who was very skeptical of this theory that processed food was uniquely bad. And he was a great believer that no, if you get the nutrients right, you'll be healthy. He got a group together, they they lived in a facility, so he fed them for thirty days. And divided them into two groups, a control and not, and created two meals. For every meal, one was substantially whole foods. The other was substantially ultra-processed food, like eighty percent ultra-processed food. Matched for calories.

• 1:17:41Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:17:41Speaker 01

  Matched for protein, salt, sugar, everything. And people in each group said, eat as much as you want. Or as little as you want, up to you, no control on on caloric intake.

• 1:17:54Lewis Howes?

  Consumption, yeah.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  The people in the group with the ultra-processed food ate five hundred more calories a day.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  So the way you prepare the food dictates how much you're gonna eat. And and that blew his mind, and he came around to the thesis that there is. We don't know exactly what it is, but there's something uniquely bad about that kind of food.

• 1:18:16Lewis Howes?

  Does it not make you feel full? Or does it make you still hungry or craving more?

• 1:18:21Speaker 01

  Could be that because it has so little fiber, it doesn't fill you up in the same way. It could be the fact that it's absorbed really quickly in the body and not going through this long, you know, microbiome processing in your body. I mean, when you process food, you're you're essentially externalizing digestion. In other words, instead of eating things like plants or or even, you know, real meat that hasn't been overly processed or turned into hamburger, your body has to work hard to break it down. You burn calories.

• 1:18:53Lewis Howes?

  Digesting is burning calories.

• 1:18:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, and but as soon as you start doing this high-level processing and removing the fiber, you're creating food that your body can be very lazy about digesting. And so it's absorbed through the small intestine rather than the large intestine. And that may that may explain it. It could also just be the the science, this idea of lying to the body about what you're getting, fooling the body. And it could be other effects in the microbiome. There's some evidence that emulsifiers, which we use to keep food, basically keep the oils and the waters from separating in processed food. Processed food would look even uglier than it does if not for these chemicals. Emulsifiers have damaged the lining of the gut

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  and allow for large particles to get into the bloodstream, which leads to an immune reaction. So it may be that processed food inflames our bodies in ways that are destructive. So the science is still out on the cause, but we know the effect. The effect is you will eat a lot more food if you're eating ultra-processed food and you will increase your risk of all sorts of chronic diseases. That's really clear.

• 1:20:03Lewis Howes?

  Where do you feel like in 10, 15 years will be the new science that comes out? Because it seems like there's always something new being, you know, discovered or revealed. Where do you see the nutritional health world moving into in the next 10, 15 years of these other discoveries?

• 1:20:22Speaker 01

  I think we will continue to accumulate evidence that it's really simple. Eat food, not too much, mostly plants. I think that's gonna hold up. I'll put money down on that. Mostly means, doesn't mean no meat, means some meat. That word, that adverb pissed off everybody because the vegetarians are like, why don't you go all the way and just say eat plants? And the meat eaters were like, why don't you talk about meat? No, mostly, let's be reasonable about that. I don't, I think we are going to learn that a traditional diet of real food is the best way to eat and it's gonna be really simple.

• 1:21:05Speaker 01

  And I think we have overcomplicated food and there's so many reasons to do it, right? I mean, you know, scientists want funding, companies want to have a health claim, they need to churn, you know, there are 14,000 new food products every year and a lot of them carry health claims. Isn't it amazing?

• 1:21:23Lewis Howes?

  14,000 new food products.

• 1:21:25Speaker 01

  14,000 new food products every year. And most of them are like ridiculous extensions of something we have, you know? It's like... An Oreo in the shape of a straw. You know, that's innovation.

• 1:21:37Lewis Howes?

  And there's always an investor who wants to make money or return on creating this product, or this business, or this company.

• 1:21:44Speaker 01

  And the other economic incentive is that it's not profitable selling simple food that comes off the farm. You make more money processing the food. The more value added. It's the package, it's the health claim, but it's also the tricking it up and, you know, giving it new flavors and new colors. And, you know, I mean, think about how many different... Check out, next time you're in the supermarket, how many Pop-Tarts there are. And Pop-Tart-like products. It's just brand extension. So this is capitalism. Capitalism, you know, depends on novelty. The idea that you're gonna eat simple foods that you prepare yourself. Who makes money on that?

• 1:22:24Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. You gotta be... The egg business has gotta be making money, right? I don't know, like, eggs and, you know...

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:22:29Lewis Howes?

  Apples are making business, but it's...

• 1:22:30Speaker 01

  Not as much, though. To give you an example, I think it's 14 cents of your food dollar goes back to the farmer. It's all the people in the middle who make the money. And farmers will tell you this, or people in the food industry, I'm sorry, not farmers, will tell you that if you wanna make money in food, it's not from growing it, it's from processing it.

• 1:22:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  So we have a strong incentive to process food as much as possible. Plus, you get, you know, you get something you can put a brand name on, right? You have IP, you know, you have all this value added. And the farmers get screwed.

• 1:23:05Lewis Howes?

  Crazy.

• 1:23:09Lewis Howes?

  Now, what is the main... The MasterClass that you have, what is the main benefit within the MasterClass that people will get out of that when they go through it?

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Well, my hope is, I mean, the reason I did it, I had a couple of reasons I wanted to do it. One was, one of the great things about MasterClass is you get a lot of time. It's like a, I forget how long it is, if it's two and a half or three hour class. So you can really go deep.

• 1:23:35Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  And you don't always get to do that, writing articles. So I really appreciated that. And the production values are amazing.

• 1:23:44Lewis Howes?

  I've seen some clips, looks amazing.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  Well, they send, you know, they send a crew of like 60 people.

• 1:23:48Lewis Howes?

  You know, it's crazy, right? It's like a full movie production.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. And it looks like it. They make you look great. But I just, I'm, I'm hyper aware, because I get asked questions, I do a lot of public speaking, of how confused people are about food. And they'll say to me, so should I buy the organic or the conventional, or, or the regenerative, or the humane? And you know, there are all these labels in the store, and, and we're, we're, we're tying ourselves up in knots about what should be a very simple transaction. And, you know, for most of human history, people have like known what to eat. They learned from their parents, and they learned from what was available. They didn't have to run all these complex algorithms to figure out what a product to buy.

• 1:24:33Speaker 01

  So I saw this as an effort to cut through a lot of nonsense about food, whether it's coming from the nutritionists or the marketers, and just like, let's look at this, let's take a fresh look, let's figure out what you care about, because I'm not going to tell you how to eat. It's, it's not, it doesn't have that kind of message. My, my message really is, tell me what you care about, and I'll tell you what to eat. And, and so we go through the various, you know, different motives.

• 1:25:04Lewis Howes?

  Getting clear of your food values, getting the, you know.

• 1:25:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, figure out what your food values are, and then here's how you might align them with what you're actually eating.

• 1:25:14Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  And so I'm hoping it'll relax people about food. I want people to come out of it, like with their stress level around when they go to the supermarket down. I don't want them to have to read labels and, you know, do this all the time.

• 1:25:28Lewis Howes?

  So, yeah, you talk a lot about intentional eating, you know, it's not just about mindless eating, but being very intentional about these food rules, these

• 1:25:35Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:25:36Lewis Howes?

  These values that we create together. And I, and I really love the idea of getting back to the dinner table, or getting back to the commune table with at least one person.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:46Lewis Howes?

  So that we can connect, we can slow it down, we can have more fulfilling conversations, feel more fulfilled spiritually and emotionally, but also nutritionally fulfilled in that process.

• 1:25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think that, you know, we've reduced food to this transaction between us and the stuff. But in fact, food is not a thing. It's a, it's a set of relationships. Food connects you to other people, as it has for all of human history. It's a communal act. But it also connects you to nature, right? It's your most important connection to the natural world. You affect nature more through your eating than anything else you do. If you think about what agriculture does to nature, right? It's the way we change the landscape more than anything else. It's the way we change the composition of species on the planet. The reason there are, you know, 50 million head of cattle in the US and only 5,000 wolves.

• 1:26:39Speaker 01

  It's because we like one and we don't like the other, or the other's a threat to the one we like. And we affect the atmosphere. You know, greenhouse gas production from the food system is about 33%.

• 1:26:51Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:26:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's a lot at stake when you sit down to eat. And I don't, but I want that to feel empowering, that you can actually vote. It's not a burden.

• 1:27:02Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  It's an opportunity.

• 1:27:03Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 1:27:04Speaker 01

  So that's what I want to inspire people with. To take their food choices as an opportunity to express their values.

• 1:27:10Lewis Howes?

  Wow. Then go to masterclass.com and check that out. If they search your name, they can get that at masterclass.com. You've also got a number of, what do you have, seven, eight New York Times bestsellers now? What do you have, 12, something like that, something crazy. How to Change Your Mind has been, you know, a phenomenon that's gone all over the world, talking about the psychedelics and the studies that you've done there. But the recent book is more about Your Mind on Plants.

• 1:27:36Speaker 01

  This is Your Mind on Plants, where I look at three different psychoactives, one of which we're all involved with, caffeine, almost all of us. And people don't think about that as a drug, but it is a drug. And I think it's a very good drug in many ways. It's had a lot of positive effects for people. The people like all drugs, people can get in trouble on that. You talk about bringing chemicals into our body. We're doing it all the time.

• 1:27:58Lewis Howes?

  All the time.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  And so I look at caffeine, I look at opium. You know, we have such a big problem around opiates now. And I look at mescaline, which is a psychedelic that you don't hear as much about, but it's a really interesting substance that is, Native Americans have been using to heal themselves for a very long time.

• 1:28:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What is the pros and cons of coffee? That you talk about and that you've researched that can truly benefit? Current health, lifespan, cognitive health? And also, what are the cons of caffeine or coffee?

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so caffeine is a powerful drug. I don't think people realize it, but most of us are, have an addiction to it. And I got off caffeine for three months. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. No caffeine, no chocolate, no tea, no coffee. And I didn't feel myself for that whole time. You know, I got through the withdrawal, which only took a couple of days.

• 1:28:55Lewis Howes?

  You didn't feel grounded, or you didn't feel connected to yourself?

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  I felt like I was someone else.

• 1:28:59Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  And it made me realize that being caffeinated was my default state. It's like that was my normal, and I'd been drinking coffee since I was 10. I started early.

• 1:29:09Lewis Howes?

  So about 10 years, right? 10, 20 years now?

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  A lot more than that, like 50 years.

• 1:29:15Lewis Howes?

  50 years drinking coffee?

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:18Lewis Howes?

  Since you were 10, how did you start at 10?

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  You know.

• 1:29:21Lewis Howes?

  I started like 35, you know?

• 1:29:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I started early. Everybody said it would stunt my growth. It apparently didn't.

• 1:29:27Lewis Howes?

  It's all.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  Maybe I would have been seven foot without it. So I felt, you know, it was hard to do. I felt like I had acquired attention deficit disorder. I normally have very good focus. I can concentrate and like block things out. You need to, to write. I couldn't write.

• 1:29:46Lewis Howes?

  Without the coffee?

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  I just was, I found, things came in from the periphery, you know? I got easily distracted. And, you know, that's why we take amphetamines, you know, to deal with that. They give us, like caffeine, stimulants give us a focus. And I needed it. So it was really hard. And the first cup after three months.

• 1:30:08Lewis Howes?

  I was amazed.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  It was incredible.

• 1:30:11Lewis Howes?

  It was delicious, right?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  It was the best, it may have been the best drug experience I've ever had.

• 1:30:16Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 1:30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was euphoric.

• 1:30:18Lewis Howes?

  So now you're caffeinated?

• 1:30:20Speaker 01

  Benefits, yeah. So I looked into this. There are a lot of health benefits to caffeine.

• 1:30:26Lewis Howes?

  Caffeine or coffee?

• 1:30:28Speaker 01

  Yes. It's coffee and tea have the health benefits. It may not be the caffeine. And the reason is that coffee and tea, believe it or not, are the biggest source of antioxidants in the American diet. It's pathetic, actually, but it's true. And so, we don't know. Caffeine, we do know, improves performance. Athletes will tell you that. On test-taking, it improves performance. If you study for a test and drink caffeine after that, after you've studied, you will remember the material and do better on the test. Wow. So, it really does enhance mental function. It has some physical benefits, too. It reduces risk of certain kinds of cancers.

• 1:31:13Speaker 01

  It reduces risk of cardiovascular disease, Parkinson's disease, and reduces risk of dementia. So it has a lot of benefits. The negatives are if it makes you really jumpy. You know, some people react badly to it or drink too much. It reduces risks of suicide and depression up to seven or eight cups. If you're drinking seven or eight cups a day, your risk of suicide and depression go way up. Seven cups a day is a lot. Yeah, but people do. I know people who like are sipping it all day long. That's too much, though, right? Seven cups a day, come on. The big negative on caffeine is it does interfere with good sleep.

• 1:31:57Speaker 01

  Even if you stop drinking it at noon, which is my practice, a quarter of the caffeine in your body is still circulating at midnight. It lasts in your body a long time. So when should you stop coffee, by? Well, at least by noon, but hopefully earlier. 10 a.m. maybe, yeah. Yeah, if you can. I mean, I go to noon because I sip it while I'm writing in the morning. What happens with even people who can fall asleep, and there are people who can have an espresso at night and fall asleep, it's changing the quality of their sleep. They're losing what's called slow wave sleep. You know, there's REM sleep, which is when you dream. But there's a kind of very deep sleep called slow wave sleep, which is very important for your health.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  And caffeine reduces the amount of it you have. So I interviewed a bunch of sleep experts for the chapter on caffeine and none of them use caffeine.

• 1:32:51Lewis Howes?

  Was it Michael Walker?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Matthew Walker, yeah. I don't know if he does now, but he, yeah, and he did a masterclass actually about sleep. It's definitely worth checking out.

• 1:33:00Lewis Howes?

  And he's had no caffeine?

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's like against caffeine, but he's softened a little bit.

• 1:33:05Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, Cuban man talks about, he has a cup of coffee, I think, I think early in the morning, but he's like, try to finish it as soon as you can, earlier in the day.

• 1:33:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Every day when you wake up, you are undergoing withdrawal. That's why you crave coffee. You know, the people who say, "I can't talk to you till I have a cup of coffee." The reason is that for most of us, we're drinking coffee to head off those withdrawal effects. The caffeine just lasts long enough during the night that you don't wake up to have a cup of coffee. But as soon as you get up in the morning, you want it. So, you know, we are addicted, but addiction, you know, if you have a steady legal supply is not a terrible thing.

• 1:33:45Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure. Yeah, not too much of it. This is amazing. You've got a, you know, your website has so much research and articles and information.

• 1:33:55Speaker 01

  Well, I posted every article I've ever written there and it's available for free to anybody who wants. MichaelPollan.com.

• 1:34:00Lewis Howes?

  MichaelPollan.com. So make sure, and I'm, you know, make sure you go sign up for your newsletter and be subscribed to everything you have there. What's the social media place you spend time on the most? Is there, is there a platform of choice?

• 1:34:12Speaker 01

  I, I use Twitter.

• 1:34:14Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  I use Instagram, but just in a kind of personal way. I just post pictures I like that I've taken.

• 1:34:21Lewis Howes?

  Twitter's more the research and the information you have there.

• 1:34:23Speaker 01

  Twitter's very useful for journalists. I mean, and so I'll, if I read something interesting and it could be about health, it could be about food, it could be about psychedelics, I'll post it, you know, sometimes without comment, just, "Hey, you should read this."

• 1:34:35Lewis Howes?

  Check it out, yeah.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I use it that way. I don't hold forth. I don't offer a lot of opinions, but I just find it's a great way to share information.

• 1:34:42Lewis Howes?

  Wow. What are you most excited about in your life right now?

• 1:34:48Speaker 01

  When am I most excited? Well, it's spring and we're about to start gardening. I'm a passionate gardener and, you know, we've had so much rain in California.

• 1:34:56Lewis Howes?

  So much. Today is raining, you know?

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  It's insane. And the earth has been saturated and you can't, you don't want to mess with the earth when it's that wet. It's bad for it. So I'm really looking forward to starting a plant and get my garden going. I grow vegetables and flowers and

• 1:35:12Lewis Howes?

  That's beautiful.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  and various psychoactives.

• 1:35:15Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. That's exciting.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18Lewis Howes?

  MichaelPaulin.com, masterclass.com, check you out there. The books, they can get it all at your website as well for the books. And again, you've got a number of New York Times bestsellers, so get multiple books if you want to dive in more. This is a couple of questions that I have left. This is a question I ask everyone at the end called the three truths. So imagine a hypothetical scenario. You've written a lot. You've researched a lot. You've had a ton of experiences. And imagine you get to live as long as you want, but eventually it's your last day.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:35:51Lewis Howes?

  It's not that long, drawn out death. It's a, it's a quick, healthy, you know, quick, painless death. And imagine you continue to live your life the way you want, achieving your dreams and connected to people you care about and healthy, but it's the last day. For whatever reason, you've got to take all of your work with you. Every article, every book, every message, you know, the masterclass is gone, you know, everything has to go to some other place when you pass on. So for whatever reason, we don't have access to your content, your information, your wisdom. But you get to leave behind three final truths, three lessons from all of your experiences that you've learned that you would leave behind as kind of like, here are these wisdom,

• 1:36:36Lewis Howes?

  this wisdom. What would be those three truths for you to leave behind?

• 1:36:42Speaker 01

  Yikes. I told you, I didn't like to hear questions in advance.

• 1:36:47Lewis Howes?

  I know. Gotta put you on the spot.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Well, the first one would be to honor the plants. My whole career, I have been learning from plants about how to eat, about the mind. It's amazing what they have to teach us and, you know, they don't speak loudly, but if you listen and you're curious. So honor the plants. That could mean growing them, certainly mean eating them.

• 1:37:18Speaker 01

  This is a cliche, people often say that. No one goes to their deathbeds thinking, "God, I wish I'd spent more time at work."

• 1:37:26Speaker 01

  So honor your family, your loved ones, your sisters. I don't have brothers. Although I have brothers-in-law. Your partner, your child. I think that we get caught up in things and those are the relationships that matter at the end. And the other stuff doesn't.

• 1:37:52Speaker 01

  Third truth. I think one of the biggest

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  problems we have is fear. I think we are closed off because we're afraid. We're afraid of trying new things. We're afraid of saying things. We're afraid of exposing our weakness. And overcoming fear, I would say that's so important. My father, who was a very wise person, or he got wise, he wasn't always.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  He had a, he was a lawyer, but he hated the law. But he liked helping people and he had a clientele of people your age who he would help with their money issues. But their money issues were always really family issues or self-worth issues. And all these kind of questions. And he would always say, "Your biggest problem is between your ears," he would say, "and it's your fear." And he was very good at getting people to like have faith in themselves, make the big move, change your career, quit that job, buy that house, marry that person. And he was a kind of just do it person. And it usually worked out. And people spend a long time procrastinating because they're afraid of change. And so embracing change and overcoming fear, I would put number three.

• 1:39:10Lewis Howes?

  I love those.

• 1:39:12Speaker 01

  I don't know about the order. I haven't thought about the order. But those are the three that came to me.

• 1:39:14Lewis Howes?

  Honor plants, honor your family, overcome your fears. I love it. I'm a big believer that self-doubt is the killer of all dreams. We can have all the talent, but if we doubt ourselves, we're not gonna act courageously. We're not gonna take the risks. We're not gonna say what we need to say, like you said. So we've gotta learn what are those fears that cause us to doubt ourselves.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, self doubt is very much the root of fear.

• 1:39:35Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question, I want to acknowledge you, Michael, for your continuous journey to seeking wisdom, truth, knowledge, lessons to help people. You know, you've been on this journey for a long time, and you keep showing up. You keep showing up in service to the process, to the journey of discovery, and to sharing the process with us so that we can try to understand this world in a more harmonious, integrous way. So I really acknowledge you for your humility, your service, your commitment to being of service with your mission. It's really inspiring. My final question for you is what's your definition of greatness?

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I should have seen that coming. I think you've just given it. I think it is your willingness to give it away, to help other people, to help people transform their lives. I think transformation is like so key, and we get so stuck. So for me, you know, my work, I didn't set out with a mission, a mission to like heal people or to change their minds. I set out with a mission to follow my curiosity. And then I found stuff that, oh, people need to know about this. This is not what they thought. And that's exciting to me when I find that out. When I, you know, spent a year studying nutrition and realized, oh, I can,

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  all you need are these seven words. And I just wanted to give them to everybody. So I think that idea of putting your work in the service of other people is very powerful to me. It makes me feel like I'm not being self-indulgent when I'm sitting there alone writing all day long. Then maybe it will have an effect on the world. I feel very lucky that I've had two phases in my writing life where I produced books that changed the conversation. You know, if you do that once in a lifetime, you feel pretty good. But this happened with food, and it's happening now with psychedelics. And I don't know what the next one will be, but...

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  And I don't know why that is, because I'm saying things that other people know, and that in some ways are pretty obvious when it comes to food. But sometimes the obvious is very powerful.

• 1:42:00Lewis Howes?

  I hope you enjoyed today's episode and it inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a full rundown of today's episode with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me personally, as well as ad free listening, then make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel exclusively on Apple Podcasts. Share this with a friend on social media and leave us a review on Apple Podcasts as well. Let me know what you enjoyed about this episode in that review. I really love hearing feedback from you and it helps us figure out how we can support and serve you moving forward. And I want to remind you, if no one has told you lately, that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter.

• 1:42:44Lewis Howes?

  And now it's time to go out there and do something great.