A Knicks Miracle (and an All-Time Spurs Collapse), a Mini-Mailbag, and a World Cup Preview | With Joe House, Kirk Goldsberry, Anthony Dabbundo, and Cousin Sal

Join The Ringer’s Bill Simmons, Joe House, and Kirk Goldsberry to react to Game 4 of the NBA Finals between the Spurs and the Knicks. Then, Bill answers some NBA questions from the mailbag before Anthony Dabbundo and Cousin Sal join to talk about their favorite FIFA World Cup bets ahead of the big tournament. (0:00) Intro (01:15) NBA Finals Game 4 reactions with Joe House and Kirk Goldsberry (41:50) NBA mailbag (01:09:28) World Cup bets with Anthony Dabbundo and Cousin Sal Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Kirk Goldsberry, Joe House, Anthony Dabbundo, and Cousin Sal Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.com Book a new kind of stay at HolidayInn.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  For adults with Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis symptoms, every choice matters. Tremfya offers self-injection or intravenous infusion from the start. Tremfya is administered as injections under the skin or infusions through a vein every four weeks, followed by injections under the skin every four or eight weeks. If your doctor decides that you can self-inject Tremfya, proper training is required. Tremfya is a prescription medicine used to treat adults with moderately to severely active Crohn's disease and adults with moderately to severely active ulcerative colitis, serious allergic reactions, increased risk of infections or lower ability to fight them, and liver problems may occur. Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis.

• 0:44Speaker 00

  Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremfya today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit tremfyradio.com.

• 1:06Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Bill Simmons Podcast is presented by PayPal. You know a clutch move when you see one? A no-look pass, a buzzer beater, a big steal? Well, imagine if your wallet could pull off moves like that. That, my friends, is PayPal. Right now, you can find offers from hundreds of brands like Sony, Allbirds, and Viator. And save offers before you check out, earn unlimited rewards. Plus, you can add those rewards on top of credit card points. Now that is clutch. Download the PayPal app today. Save those offers. Start scoring rewards. Terms and exclusions apply. See paypal.com/rewards/. Credit card points subject to issuers, terms, and conditions.

• 2:15Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live on Netflix.

• 2:21Bill Simmons?

  Following game four of Spurs Knicks. Kurt Goldsberry is here. Joe House is here. That is the single biggest choke job I've ever witnessed in an NBA, important NBA game. Combined with one of the best comebacks I've ever seen in an NBA game. And House, I don't know where to start, except I kept thinking Falcons 28 Patriots 3.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:43Bill Simmons?

  As I was watching that collapse. Not to bring a Boston team into this, but when.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  Oh, not to bring a Boston team into this.

• 2:50Bill Simmons?

  When Wemby missed those two free throws, it was like, wow, we're really doing this. They score 30 points in the second half. They blow a 29-point lead and they still have a chance to end the game with less than six seconds left. They get a terrible Brunson 30 footer that over Wemby, but OG comes in, gets the tip. Wait, House, biggest basketball choke you've ever seen? Is that it?

• 3:15Speaker 02

  It has to be it because of the circumstances, because the raw data tells it's the biggest comeback in NBA Finals history. And I felt like it was a perfect, a perfect expression of exactly this Spurs team, which is first half. The youthful exuberance, they're playing loose, they're playing free, they have absolutely nothing to lose, they can't miss. And the second half, they score 30 total points. I think KG, before we went live, said they had eight field goals total in the second half.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Exactly what a young team, under these circumstances, who hasn't been through the gauntlet, you know, comes out and just a little bit tight, then it's contagious. The whole team is tight. And Wemby, you know, some of the observation coming into this game was when there's, the turnaround is this short, he tends to, you can see some of the fatigue still on that man. And then the shooting percentage reflected it. I mean, he ended up.

• 4:22Bill Simmons?

  Nine for 25, missing free throws.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  With a slew of misses.

• 4:26Bill Simmons?

  Forty-three minutes for Wemby. Kirk, I thought Mitch Johnson, he was keeping Wemby in there. Remember, he rested him for like 50 seconds, brought him back in. And I think the thinking was, let's go for the kill. Let's get this, let's get this now. And if we, if we're winning double figures, he's not going to play the last four or five minutes anyway. He wilted at one point. I think he missed 10 of 11 shots down the stretch. He missed two monster free throws. And then combined with everything else that was coming back in this comeback in stages, which we'll cover. Fox gets the steal with 10 seconds left, up one because Brunson throws it away, gets tapped out. And Fox is with OG behind him.

• 5:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:07Bill Simmons?

  And you just have to fake like you're laying up and dribble it out and try to kill some time and shoot some free throws. He goes for the layup, OG blocks it, and then it's basically the hero on both ends. This is one of the most heroic end of the game things that we've ever seen in a finals game. But who, when the Spurs look back at this, who are they going to blame?

• 5:28Speaker 03

  Themselves. I think they, they, remember, this is the same team that broke the record for most threes in the first half. They were red hot. That's why this story is so crazy, Bill. It's like they went from the hottest shooting team we'd ever seen in a finals game to maybe the coldest. I haven't had time to look it up.

• 5:44Bill Simmons?

  14 for 26 and then three for 17 in the second half.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were four of 20 in the third quarter as a team. And I think four of 20 in the fourth quarter after shooting the lights out. But you brought up Fox, let's blame him a little bit. I can't believe that guy won clutch player of the year, watching him down the stretch in this game. He, the Spurs were doing an immaculate job taking care of the basketball too in the first half again. That all fell apart in the third quarter. Fox had a bunch of dumb turnovers in the third quarter. But that play, yeah, that's going to haunt their dreams too. They had the basketball, they were up one. He's going to the rim, right? That, that's the moment with Ananobi.

• 6:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but not with, yeah, like seven, eight seconds.

• 6:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And he goes up, maybe he got fouled, maybe he didn't, but I don't think he should have gone up. I think Darren Fox and obviously Victor Wembeyama missing those free throws was huge. But just an, an absolute collapse on the offensive end of the court for the Spurs. I think Mike Breen did a great job calling it out. It didn't look like they knew what they wanted to do. It didn't look like what actions they, they weren't confident. Who's the grown up supposed to be? It's supposed to be the point guard, the veteran, the clutch player of the year. I don't think he was big enough in that, in that like late game stretch.

• 6:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, you know, the grownups were there, Jalen Brunson and OG and Obie. A hundred percent. Brunson never comes out, I don't think, in the second half, played 44 minutes, 36 points. And OG finishes with 33. He played 41 minutes and had the two biggest plays of the game, plus just a bunch of three, what was he, 7 for 9 from 3, a bunch of dagger 3s too. But, you know, when you're coming back from this and the greatest finals comeback I remember before this was the Celtics against the Lakers in game four in 2008. And that was, they were down 24 and it was basically two runs. And it was some 3 pointers and the Lakers got a little tight. And then you kind of felt with two minutes left, the Celtics were going to take the game.

• 7:39Bill Simmons?

  This was different. This was 79 to 46 at halftime with the Spurs with 14 for 26 from 3 and two turnovers house. Yeah. They playing perfect basketball and I'm on text threads with all these Knicks fans. We're all going nuts about the refs. And I'm like, you guys, it's a 23 to 6 free throw advantage at halftime. You guys are getting your asses kicked. Like you're not defending 3s. Your, your defense has been horrible and the Spurs are playing great. They ramped the defense up in the second half. So it goes from, all of a sudden it's, Castle gets the fourth foul. And I thought all three announcers missed it. Cause I thought Brunson was a different guy when Castle was out there versus when he was out. So Castle goes out pretty early, 10 oh 9 in the third quarter, Castle's out.

• 8:24Bill Simmons?

  But then the thing with these comebacks, that these little stages, right? So they get it to 81 59. They get it to 81 65 with five minutes left. It's 90 75 at the end of 3. So it's like, all right, you gotta make your second run here. And then they make it. All of a sudden it's 99 95 with 4:32 left. And we've all seen this Knicks team house where it's like, if they're in, in sniffing distance, you feel like they're going to take it. Yeah. But Alvarado's out there. We have no Mikal Bridges. Towns has really done nothing. It's basically two guys carrying. So what did you think was going to happen with five minutes left?

• 9:01Speaker 02

  I thought there was

• 9:02Bill Simmons?

  Who did you think was gonna win?

• 9:03Speaker 02

  A great chance for the Knicks to win. I mean, the one thing that that had me feeling a tiny bit cautious is is the poise that the Spurs showed down the stretch in game three, where they weren't completely phased. I mean, the Knicks tried to make a run in game three. And the Spurs were like, pretty calm. I thought they ran decent action. But this is always the case, and I don't have the the fourth quarter numbers in front of me in terms of how well the Knicks shot the three ball in the fourth quarter. But that was, you know, they were two for 14 from three in game three. They were vastly improved, and that's the thing that starts to feel like, you know, the avalanche.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  But but really, it was just Brunson and OG is the only reliable scorers for the Knicks. But you could feel the poise just just falling away.

• 9:56Bill Simmons?

  You could feel the young team experiencing that. Yeah, so that the Knicks were four for 20 for three in the first half. I'm sorry, four for 12. And second half, they were 11 for 20. And that was with, like, what did their bench, like, really? The bench was

• 10:13Speaker 02

  You got nothing.

• 10:14Bill Simmons?

  Eight points for Alvarado.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's it.

• 10:16Bill Simmons?

  Two and two, 12 points from their bench. Harper, like, almost doubled their bench. I thought the Castle thing screwed up that dynamic for the Spurs, Kirk, because

• 10:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:25Bill Simmons?

  He's kind of there, I'm not afraid of anything guy, and the fact that he was in and out of the game with foul trouble. He ends up playing 25 minutes. Usually, he's around 38, 40. And then ultimately, it just became, hey, De'Aaron Fox, you're gonna have to figure this out for us because Wemby seems like he's luggage.

• 10:42Speaker 03

  And there was a moment where Castle was the only one playing offense, it seemed, who was, he got to the line a couple of times in the middle of that ice cold slump. He was the only one really attacking the two point area. He was good. The foul trouble, like, just with Towns. Towns had the two dumb fouls to open the game, and I had some Knicks friends texting me. I'm like, I'm sorry, I thought both of those were fouls.

• 11:04Bill Simmons?

  And the third foul was even dumber. He just shoved somebody in the back and the rebound is out. Yeah.

• 11:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, and

• 11:10Speaker 02

  I didn't like the first foul, just for the record.

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, Fox going at him. That's fair. I think, look, Jalen Brunson, I want to give some love to OG Ananobe. This dude has been great for the New York Knicks all playoffs. That tip in Bill Simmons, that is going to be something we're talking about for a very long time on your show and every other platform. That was NBA history. That was not an easy tip in.

• 11:33Bill Simmons?

  That's one of those. They'll have the camera angles from 15 different places on the OG tip in. Now, the big thing was Wemby was 25 feet from the basket and Harper came in to get it, but OG just came flying in. It was almost like a set play, but it wasn't obviously.

• 11:46Speaker 02

  I want to quibble. I want to quibble with you. You called that Brunson shot a dumb shot. I don't think that was a dumb shot. I thought that was, you know, I want him taking it and I want them to have a chance to rebound. And with Wemby all the way out, then they had a chance to rebound and OG had a free run. He had a free run at the basket.

• 12:03Bill Simmons?

  It's a 30 foot shot with trying to arc it over Wemby. I didn't think it was going in.

• 12:08Speaker 02

  I understand.

• 12:09Speaker 03

  It was a classic Kobe assist. They had, they had changed the shape of the defense and then OG. But dude, that was not an easy tip in. That was like five feet away.

• 12:18Speaker 02

  He was flying.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Every time, every time he got the ball in the corner, he, it's feeling like Klay Thompson too. He just making both plays on defense. And by the way, he was the defender on that Fox play we talked about. This guy is, he deserves so much credit right now for that win. OG Ananobe.

• 12:37Bill Simmons?

  That's another thing I didn't like about them basically riding Fox down the stretch was the Knicks had Ananobe on them. I just don't like the matchup. I guess what matchup I don't like? Anyone against OG Ananobe. I just, I'm out. Like, let's come up with another thing. But that's part of the problem with when you have a young team trying to figure out what to do. And every time, this happened in game three too, and it felt like, there's a couple of moments when the, they started white knuckling the steering wheel with the, with the lead, the Spurs. All of a sudden, it feels like it takes 10 seconds for them to get into their offense. They're 30 feet from the basket. They're running this Wemby Fox high screen that seems like it's too far away. And I just don't feel like anything good's gonna happen. But we, we should mention, I mean, there's so many things to cover from this game. That Josh Hart missed layup.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  Oof.

• 13:23Bill Simmons?

  If the Knicks had lost.

• 13:24Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 13:25Bill Simmons?

  Would have been Charles Smith level.

• 13:27Speaker 02

  That's I hate that.

• 13:28Bill Simmons?

  That would have been if the Knicks had lost the series, that would have hit. Charles Smith would have been like, come on here, sit next to me on the park bench for the rest of eternity.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Because that story would have been two parts. It would have been that blown layup plus his in his failure to box out on the rebound. When when Castle came in, you know, on a they they did the Knicks defended perfectly.

• 13:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  On one of those last three possessions.

• 13:50Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 13:51Speaker 03

  And he was the one who committed the foul on Wemby that sent him to the line. And then Wemby misses both. Uh, but yeah, not a great sequence for Josh Hart, but we're not sitting here talking about that because his teammate. And that's what I would say.

• 14:02Bill Simmons?

  He's talking to everybody.

• 14:03Speaker 03

  These this, these dudes are special, right? That's a special team. As a Spurs guy, 28, three, great call, Bill. I was rooting for the Patriots that night. It felt like I I'm not, I was never comfortable. As crazy as that comeback was, I've seen this team do this in these playoffs to Cleveland, game one. It wasn't 29 points, but this felt like grown men against young boys. And it just, they just got there and I was like, okay, once and and House said this, you could feel it on on on in the game. Like that confidence of the Spurs just melting away.

• 14:39Bill Simmons?

  You know who was comfortable? Joe House, because I checked with him at halftime and said, what do I do about my Spurs over two to one parlay? I should just hedge with the Knicks. I was no, this is done.

• 14:51Speaker 02

  I didn't write, I didn't write that. All I wrote was you wrote.

• 14:54Bill Simmons?

  No, you wrote NFW.

• 14:56Speaker 02

  And I wrote NFW.

• 14:57Bill Simmons?

  No fucking way.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 14:58Bill Simmons?

  You told me not to hedge it.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  That's the correct play up by 27. Now, uh, I will say to Kirk's great point. Um, this is the DNA of the Knicks. Like, we will get to see over the body of this season, all the journalism that comes out tomorrow morning. And over these next two days will be all of the comebacks that the Knicks have mounted over the course of the season. All of these double digit second half comebacks, all of these fourth quarter comebacks that make them exactly prime for this moment against this.

• 15:30Speaker 02

  Team of Spurs that are goddamn badass boys. I mean, they are bad. They are bad, bad.

• 15:37Bill Simmons?

  They were so good in that first half.

• 15:38Speaker 02

  I can't call them men because they're boys and that, that, that's the difference. That's all. A team with a, a DNA where they're playing all the 48, they're going to get to the 48 and you know, the Spurs team, they're really good. It's a, it's a dead even series, except for the Knicks are up three to one.

• 15:57Bill Simmons?

  Some of my notes from the third quarter, Castle four fouls, Brunson loves with Castle isn't out there. Wemby flagrant, dumb SA shots, five minutes left in the third quarter. SA has five points. Um, way better defense from New York. So one of the things they did was they just clogged the paint. And they were like, we know you went 14 for 26 in the first half, but we don't think that's going to keep going. And it didn't. Spurs started going way too slow. By the end of the third quarter, they were two for 12 from three, five turnovers, 20%. Um, and then the other thing was Brunson just wasn't coming out. And I thought Harper staved some of it off for them. The third quarter, because he was great, but at some point, somebody else has to step up. Nobody, nobody did. And then,

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  um, the fact that Brunson could do all that with never coming out was pretty nuts. Forty-four hard minutes. They're, they're taking them full court. He, how many, he ended up taking, looking at the shots, 25 shots, 11 free throws.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:56Bill Simmons?

  Doing all the, setting up everybody. I thought his, his court game was really nice. He found a lot of guys who kept missing threes. Um, he was great and OG, and those are the two heroes. And then Towns came in a little late with the 13 and 10, but it was really those two guys, right, Kirk?

• 17:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, Towns had a couple of nice moments. I'd written in my notes, Carl Anthony ghost Towns because it felt like he was disappeared after the fouls. I think that was the karma that cost the Spurs the game. So sorry about that.

• 17:23Speaker 02

  You're nuts.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  It was my notes. Uh, the other iconic moment that Brunson deserves credits for was, uh, the incredible three over Wemby on the right wing. That's another one of those like they're gonna make that social media like cinematic video of that. It was just an amazing shot. Uh, but Brunson deserves credit, Bill. I think he came into this game with 13 assists and 13 turnovers. You don't have to be Dean Oliver to know that's, that's not a great assist to turnover ratio, uh, but he was making plays all night and he's never gonna give up to House's point. These are, this is the DNA.

• 18:01Bill Simmons?

  It was awesome. And that's why he's gonna be a legend if they can win one more game.

• 18:05Speaker 03

  One more.

• 18:06Bill Simmons?

  He go, he goes down in all time history and he gets to take his place next to Jeter and Eli Manning and all of these great guys they've had over the years.

• 18:13Speaker 03

  Freaking Mickey Mantle.

• 18:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that'll be, that'll be what happens. So 99, 95, 4:32 left. Fox comes out of the timeout, hits a huge three. So now they're up seven. Alvarado gets a layup, Wemby gets, hits a jumper and then Alvarado hits a three.

• 18:30Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 18:31Bill Simmons?

  With like three minutes left. So all of a sudden now it's 104, 100. Then you mentioned Brunson hit the three. Hart misses the layup. Wemby misses both free throws.

• 18:41Speaker 03

  Oof.

• 18:42Bill Simmons?

  Brunson hits that floater and Castle steps out of bounds and it's like this game's done. What happens? Knicks get the 24 second violation. Fox misses, Castle has that offensive rebound you mentioned and makes two more clutch free throws.

• 18:55Speaker 03

  Huge.

• 18:56Bill Simmons?

  And now, uh, and now we, that leads to the Brunson turnover. Fox with a breakaway. OG blocks him and if you're the Spurs, you look back at this and you say, we didn't have a field goal in the last four minutes of the game and our best guy missed two free throws when it really mattered.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:13Bill Simmons?

  And our point guard, instead of dribbling out the clock, trying to kill time, get fouled, you're at least going up two, decided to try to challenge OG Anunoby on a layup. And then on top of it, it felt like that play at the end of the game was open and I think Towns tipped the pass.

• 19:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:28Bill Simmons?

  Castle was open on that.

• 19:30Speaker 03

  He was.

• 19:31Bill Simmons?

  Did you see that? Like Castle would had a layup on that, but Towns tipped it. So I don't know, Kirk. I feel like after some of these, you're like, this is done, it's over, they can't recover. And then a lot of times you just see the team recover.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:45Bill Simmons?

  But I don't think they can win three games in a row as well as they played in game three and as well as they looked in the first.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  I certainly wouldn't bet on that, Bill, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't rule it out in this day and age in these playoffs. This Spurs team has responded every time now. They seem to make it harder each round. Going down 3-2 to OKC was not a great position to be in. They came back and won. So I would take the Knicks, don't get me wrong, but I, I wouldn't rule it out. Game five in San Antonio, we'll talk about, but like something you mentioned that I think we bears like drilling down on. Mike Brown going with Alvarado down the stretch.

• 20:22Bill Simmons?

  Sitting Bridges who stunk.

• 20:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, and Alvarado had two massive buckets though. He hits the three and then he had the, the, the two point shot too.

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Mike Brown, ladies and gentlemen, this is a Knicks coach that, that is a first year coach. The last year Nick coach would not have been playing that guy in that moment. And I think the Knicks are at this level because they made Mike Brown the head coach. And I think that deserves a little respect here right now, too.

• 20:54Bill Simmons?

  And on top of that point, House, they steal Alvarado at the deadline for nothing. He falls out of the rotation pretty quickly because he, he, his shooting goes sideways, but he's a New York City kid. Grew up dreaming of playing for the Knicks someday, right? And you just feel like this is, this is smart because whether he plays or doesn't play, he's going to be delighted to be there. He'll be, he's a great teammate agitator, like he might have a moment in these playoffs was the feeling, right? And then he has the moment in the biggest game that they played the whole, whole season.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, go, go dig out the clips, pat yourself on the back a little bit. At the trade deadline, you, you were effusive with your praise to the Knicks for that, that acquisition.

• 21:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you want me to do the Stephen A. and start taking credit? Do I get a chip, a chip ring? The, yeah, but the thing is like these, we always talk at the trade deadline when we do these pods. Oh, he's a playoff guy. Oh, you can play him in a playoff game. Oh, that's somebody in the right series. He, he'll have a moment and he's one of those guys. You could see it in New Orleans and you know, versus Nikola Vucevic, maybe not one of those guys.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  OG Ananobe, also a masterpiece of a trade. Now, like, look at that deal, too. I mean, the Knicks front office deserves a little bit of credit for, for putting this group together with that trading tool, not just.

• 22:12Bill Simmons?

  Can we give them a lot of credit? This has been an amazing front office. Yeah. This is one of the best jobs anyone's done.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think, yeah, that the, the, the guys behind the scenes, the front office and the coaching staff are a big reason why they won this game. I think that's, that's huge. And yeah.

• 22:28Bill Simmons?

  You know, there's another, you know, there's another reason. The Spurs completely choked. It was the biggest choke in the history of the NBA.

• 22:34Speaker 03

  You said you weren't gonna call it a choke, Bill. Jeez.

• 22:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't love the word choke, but when it's a collective team and you blow a lead like that and what happens, happens down the stretch and then you have major brain farts and miss free throws and you're not boxing out on the biggest rebound of the game and all that stuff like that. Unfortunately, it's going to count as a choke.

• 22:55Speaker 03

  One small aside, Manhattan might be on fire. I'm looking at my hotel.

• 22:59Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  There's a lot of loud noises and a lot of bonking and a lot of let's go Knicks.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  Celebration. Everybody stay safe.

• 23:05Bill Simmons?

  Let's talk about that because we, we've spent 20 minutes here and didn't talk about this Knicks team that hasn't won in 53 years. The fans are at it. They're so, I'm hearing from people at the game and they're like, the refs have just, between Trump and game three and the refs in game four, the fans are just in this nervous, angry frenzy and it's like affecting the team was the, the, the message I was getting from, from the stands. Like the energy is way off.

• 23:31Speaker 02

  The fan energy was affecting the team is what you're saying.

• 23:33Bill Simmons?

  The fan energy was, was just, nothing was right. It was almost like they had to hit rock bottom to come out of it. And then it turns into one of the most joyous events, not only in the history of the Knicks, but in the history of the league to win that game.

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Dude.

• 23:45Bill Simmons?

  When the Celtics won their game, it was on the. Road in in LA, we we don't see a lot of home comebacks like that, but that ends up being, you know, they're probably going to win the title. That becomes one of the most iconic comebacks in in any sport, not just basketball.

• 24:00Speaker 03

  Well, we've all been to New York City 100 times, Bill, and I've never seen it like this. It is so electric. Everybody walked by on the street has a Knicks shirt on. Everybody's talking about the Knicks, the cabbies, the we've heard other people talking about it, but it is electric in there. But dude, there is a lot of pressure on this team. And I thought at some point in this game, they lost some of their composure. Mitch Robinson throws that elbow at Wemby. Wemby's motioning the I'm in your head. And it was like, oh, wow. And then Alvarado like picked up Wemby's leg.

• 24:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. How was that a flagrant, by the way?

• 24:33Speaker 03

  I think the refs were afraid of the crowd at that point.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  I totally agree with that.

• 24:36Bill Simmons?

  You're right.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  I think I think KG's on the money. They're like, we we don't like the energy in this crowd. The refs didn't like it.

• 24:43Bill Simmons?

  They were terrified of all those 72 year old billionaires sitting in the first row.

• 24:47Speaker 02

  Jerry Davis was coming.

• 24:48Bill Simmons?

  Metro Catheter at them. Um, no, they definitely, uh, and then I thought in the second half, I thought the Knicks got way more physical, which they should have done.

• 24:59Bill Simmons?

  And, you know, the Spurs, every time they would get in trouble in this series, would just stop going to the basket. And that's why Castle was so important to them throughout the finals. And then just him not playing enough, they kind of missed their guys. Like, fuck it, I'm going to the basket.

• 25:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I was watching, I watched game seven with Chris Bosh, name drop. And I was watching it with him, the Oklahoma City series. And he said to me, he's like, Wemby needs his move. What's his move? And in those moments, like Timmy had, we knew what if the Spurs were going through this 25 years ago, it would be Tim on the left block, over the right shoulder off the glass. You know, he needs to develop that. And in these moments, when Mike Brain's like, it just feels like they don't know what play they want to get to. That's where your superstar needs to have some bread and butter action. And to your earlier point, Bill, you know who has that? Jalen Brunson. He can get to the elbow. He can do the step back three. He can get into the lane and draw a foul.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  And it just feels like that was a real learning moment for these young guys. Like, that's the difference between a mature NBA player and an immature NBA player. And that was on full display in the most important possessions of this game.

• 26:09Speaker 02

  That's such a good point. And I want to ask you a question about Wemby, but to me. Honestly, the guy that I want having the ball under those circumstances that I trust going to the hole and Bill's already shaking his head is Harper. Harper's the guy that the playmaker that that I want. I want to get those touches, those Fox touches at the at the end. Now Fox did nail that three and that was a humongous three. But I think, you know, the only reason that it's not Harper in those possessions at the is just because, you know, he's, what is he 20 whatever years old? Uh, and this is his first time in the league. But here's my question.

• 26:46Bill Simmons?

  And they were settling for threes over just going to the basket, which was the other.

• 26:49Speaker 02

  What a segue. What a setup. KG, it can't be the case. It can't be the case that the Spurs want Victor shooting a third, taking a third of his attempts from three. It just can't be the case that that's that they prefer that. It doesn't make any sense.

• 27:06Bill Simmons?

  He wants it.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  Eight three-point attempts, eight three-point attempts.

• 27:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't know why he's so afraid of foul line jumpers. It feels like I always think they're going in like that little spot like between the foul line and the top of the key. When you talk about he doesn't have a shot yet, the shot should be like a running jump hook or some sort of.

• 27:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:26Bill Simmons?

  I'm sticking my arm up in the air and kind of just flicking it down. But that's the thing. He's 22 and five years. Like, think of all the great players over the years who every year they added something to their game. So he's gonna add something. I think House, to answer your question about what's his move, like, I actually think it's that hard roll to the basket with his hand up and the alley-oop. And what the Knicks were starting to do during this series is they're shoving them.

• 27:50Speaker 02

  They are.

• 27:50Bill Simmons?

  They're basically committing a foul before he touches it. So it's not a shooting foul. And they must have done that five times today.

• 27:56Speaker 02

  Totally agree.

• 27:56Bill Simmons?

  Where they're shoving him off balance as he's about to get the dunk versus fouling him as he's getting the dunk. And it was smart. They've done, I think, like, they, I think the Knicks have won every challenge they've had in the series. That's another one. Like, they're just like really well coached. Now, it didn't seem like that in the first quarter when they weren't playing defense and getting their asses kicked. But, um, but yeah, it's just a smart, cerebral team. And it comes down to plays like that Fox play, Fox not dribbling out the clock, OG realizing he might actually go for the layup and somehow blocking it, not fouling him, and then making the play on the other end. Um, from a Wemby standpoint. Kirk, I hate to frame it this way, but I'm gonna do anyway.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 28:38Bill Simmons?

  Maybe, maybe this is, this is the Wemby, I need to be kicked into the nuts as hard as possible, and this will make me stronger for the long-term loss that seemingly all great athletes have?

• 28:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's the lore, right? That's the conventional wisdom. I'm still not ready to give up on this series, but if they lose, there's no question that the 90% free throw shooter going to the line for the most important free throws of a season and going 0-2 in that situation, that's in between the ears, Bill. And, yeah, I, I think he has-

• 29:13Bill Simmons?

  Also, he's a great free throw shooter. That's the other problem with that.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  He said 90%.

• 29:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no, I mean, it's just like that, like, that made it worse, because I thought, I know he's tired, but he's great at this, he's gonna make these, and didn't make either.

• 29:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then Castle goes up and makes them, and I, I feel like there is, you could say those are just random numbers, I don't believe that. Uh, I think there was a poise and a fatigue thing, uh, and that's the other thing, is Victor is not the most, um, he doesn't have the endurance of somebody like Stephen Curry, or these great players we've seen who've worked on their physiques and their conditioning for years and gotten to the point where at the end of the fourth quarter, a game's exactly like this, Stephen Curry's gonna be the one who's in the best shape, uh, running around, making his jumpers, hitting those exact kinds of free throws. Um, and it does, it does look like it to me, that, that Victor has a conditioning challenge ahead of him, too, and these late games will kind of prove it.

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about Steph. When did, he had all the ankle stuff and wasn't really until like year four, year five, when he started around into who he is. House, what do you think the, what do you think the gambling line in this series is right now? You had to guess.

• 30:23Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, whatever it opened at, um, but flipped, the Spurs were 2-1 favorites. Is it more than that now?

• 30:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 02

  Oh, okay.

• 30:34Bill Simmons?

  Think they're factoring in the Chocola that happened tonight.

• 30:38Bill Simmons?

  Uh, minus 400 for the Knicks on Fanduel.

• 30:40Speaker 02

  All right, minus 400, all right.

• 30:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  That sounds right. I mean-

• 30:44Bill Simmons?

  Two days off, so, all right, so if you're the Spurs-

• 30:47Speaker 03

  Dude, that's crazy.

• 30:48Bill Simmons?

  Let's go through this if you're the Spurs. You get two days off, you don't play until Saturday, you're going home. You- Led all four games in the final two minutes. And I think you led three of them in the final minute. You had two of the most memorable last minute collapses in the recent history of the finals with Wemby throwing the pass off Castle's back in game two. And then basically everything that happened in the last couple of minutes of this. And, you know, you could talk yourself into, all right. Come on, one game at a time. We can play with these guys. This team's not better than us. They haven't really beaten us yet.

• 31:27Bill Simmons?

  We've led double figures in every game. We've had leads of like 17 and 29 and, you know, let's just, let's just play our game. Don't get carried away. But what does Mitch Johnson do differently other than maybe not playing Wemby that many minutes?

• 31:42Speaker 03

  I think they gotta just do what they, they were playing so much better than the Knicks for that first half.

• 31:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  For an hour. What does he do differently? I, I don't know. I think one of the things I wanted to see, you sort of brought it up earlier and it doesn't have to be Harper, but like pick on Jalen Brunson on defense. Like, yeah, run, you have these three ferocious attack guards. Darren Fox, maybe not as ferocious as normal. He's still dinged up. But could we, could we pick on Brunson on defense? Wear him out?

• 32:15Bill Simmons?

  So you wouldn't pick on OG and Anoby? That's one of your, one of the things you'd change?

• 32:18Speaker 03

  I wouldn't pick on.

• 32:19Bill Simmons?

  Don't pick on OG and Anoby. All right, I'm gonna write that down.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  Or Josh Hart or Bridges is good, like. But yeah, I would, I would try to get cat in foul trouble on purpose and I would attack with my fleet of attack guards. I would isolate and attack Jalen Brunson in drive situations.

• 32:41Speaker 02

  Well, in very, very quietly, that was the impact of Castle getting into foul trouble. Was it was, it was, um, Champagne who was out there. Champagne got the majority, got 33 minutes to Castle's 26.

• 32:56Bill Simmons?

  And he killed them tonight. At least offensively. And that's somebody that was huge for them in the OKC series.

• 33:01Speaker 03

  And one more, one more point on that.

• 33:02Bill Simmons?

  Been not carried over.

• 33:03Speaker 03

  One more point. When the Spurs won their only game in the series, guess who was in foul trouble? Jalen Brunson, because they were attacking him. Uh, he got. Those four fouls and he had to sit out and that was a huge factor and the Knicks without Brunson on the floor are completely guardable. And it's almost like the only time I've seen somebody really expose one defender this playoffs like I would try to do if I were Mitch Johnson was the Knicks going after Harden over and over and over and over again in that series. I would like to see a really sort of aggressive targeting of Jalen Brunson on defense by these guards.

• 33:43Bill Simmons?

  I'm trying to remember other famous like last minute collapses like this and another one that has come up a few times over the last few weeks was that 95 Magic with the four missed free throws. Now that was like Nick Anderson four in row. That was more abrupt. The game was over, it goes into overtime and then I actually went back and watched it after we talked about in the last pod and I think Hakeem gets a tip in with like under a second left and OT to win it and that young team cratered. There was a feeling maybe this, that maybe that would happen to the Spurs after game two. Didn't happen. And Wemby is one of the most confident young stars we've ever had and he could just say, look, man, I got worn out. I was trying to do everything.

• 34:27Bill Simmons?

  I was going nuts, but I still feel like I'm the best player in this series. So no castle foul trouble. Wemby responds, what else do you need, House? More Dylan Harper?

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Well, I will say this to KG's observation earlier. The short turnaround time going from a Monday game to a Wednesday game, we don't have any more of those. Over the balance of this series, we have, we go Saturday, Tuesday, Friday, I think is game seven. So with that cadence, for sure that that's a step in the right direction for Wemby. But I mean, honestly, the way these games have played out, I don't think that there are, are, are big moves to be made. I mean, the Spurs were right there. The difference is knocking down two more shots in the fourth quarter and they win by-

• 35:21Bill Simmons?

  They may be dribbling at the clock.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:24Bill Simmons?

  Any last notes, Kirk?

• 35:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would tell people all week like, well, I have a question for you, but it's like, these teams are very close and it's almost like if we flip the coin together seven times and heads won five of them, I'd be like, man, tail sucks, you know? That's how close this series is to me, but here's my question for you, Bill Simmons, because you're the greatest sports writer of our time, but you retired.

• 35:50Bill Simmons?

  Oh, thanks, Greg.

• 35:51Speaker 03

  I have to write the game five look ahead. So I think Joe House will let me indulge. If the sports guy had the assignment that I have at your website, the Ringer dot com for tomorrow, what are we thinking for game five?

• 36:08Bill Simmons?

  Your Brunson defense when Castle can stay in the court is working. I don't know. We haven't seen like this is the, you know, I love coming on after these games, but not knowing what some of the advanced stats are, I'd love to know the on off when Castle's out there, when he's not against Brunson, because it feels like when Castle's out there against Brunson, he has a hard time looking like Brunson, right? So that'd be the first thing is like, hey, Castle, like just try to stay in the game for us because you're our best chance for this. Harper, the more he has the ball, ad libbing, doing Harper stuff, I just feel like they're in a better position. I'm not giving OG that corner three anymore, just not. If I have to give up other stuff, that's fine, but he's, it's just going in every

• 36:52Bill Simmons?

  time now. And if it doesn't go in, he's beating somebody down the baseline and creating something else. Like you have to start treating him, I think, like take him a little more seriously. I'm not afraid of anyone on that, on that Knicks bench.

• 37:05Bill Simmons?

  McBride and Shamet have gone sideways. Alvarado came up big, but he was really like the last guy they could put out there. And this hasn't felt like it's the series for Mitch.

• 37:16Bill Simmons?

  And then just hope, keep trying to challenge Towns and hope he does dumb stuff. That third foul he had was really stupid. Like, you know, that was a classic Minnesota Towns foul. So I don't know. What else would you add, House?

• 37:29Speaker 02

  Um, nothing. I mean, in terms of, of the narrative, the interesting thing to me is what we got in that second half is the version of the Knicks each time they had a closeout game in front of them. They go up on teams. You know, that was 58 to 30. Well, guess what? We watched that against Atlanta. We watched that against every time this Knicks team had a chance to close somebody out. And so that's the fascinating thing to me. This is a closeout game against a team that is entirely different character than the Eastern Conference teams the Knicks went up against and, and just ran them off the floor. I honestly love the Spurs. Now, I don't know that the,

• 38:11Speaker 02

  the line's going to open up at what it's been Spurs at home, four and a half, five and a half, something like that. I'm not going to lay the points out of respect to the Knicks, but I honestly think the Spurs are going to win.

• 38:23Bill Simmons?

  It's the smell of a Tony Brothers game.

• 38:25Speaker 02

  Oh, he's got the whiff.

• 38:30Bill Simmons?

  I smell fouls. Oh, I smell another foul. Yeah, it feels like this would be a Tony special would be. We also haven't seen Foster in a while.

• 38:40Speaker 03

  That's what I thought the sports guy was gonna say, but maybe we save him for game six at the Garden, a chance for him to be under the bright lights of Broadway and do his thing.

• 38:51Bill Simmons?

  Off the hook, um, Trump, who I think if the Knicks had lost this game too, I think, I think the, the New York City fanbase hatred of Trump would have gone to this level that is, would have never been seen before. And then Josh Hart would have been the other one if they lose that game, like we mentioned, that's, he's immediately taken a seat next to Charles Smith, um, with one of the worst moments in Knicks history. And the other irony of it is Knicks fans love Josh Hart. So of all people, and it looked like he was gonna dunk, but then realized his steps were too far away and, uh, couldn't do it. So, all right. So how's things to Spurs are still alive in game five? I think I agree. Um, but I don't think they can beat the Knicks three times in a

• 39:37Speaker 03

  I don't think that can happen.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  Without some sort of injury or something weird happening. If these are the teams and everyone's healthy, I don't see the Knicks losing three times in a row.

• 39:45Speaker 03

  If, obviously, they win game five, game six will be fascinating. I mean, a chance to win the NBA championship in Madison Square Garden in Manhattan with this fan base, that's a lot of pressure. It's gonna be one of the most electric NBA games in the history of the league if that happens.

• 40:05Speaker 03

  But yeah, I could see a path for the Spurs, but certainly, like I said earlier, you're down 3-1. You had chances to win at least three of these games yourself. It's just, we've seen too many of these series, Bill, to really have faith in the Spurs at this point.

• 40:21Bill Simmons?

  All right, guys. I think we covered everything. I'm amazed we were all coherent.

• 40:29Bill Simmons?

  And especially like knowing that the Spurs were a young team prone to do this and knowing that the Knicks love coming back.

• 40:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:38Bill Simmons?

  Even when the game was 29, I wasn't exactly turning it off, but I felt like they'd missed their, it was like it became a Solaz of the Turk game where it was like the Knicks missed their chance a couple of times when they were getting it to 15-14 and then somebody hit a three and it was like, wow, this could have been a great comeback. And then all of a sudden, the fourth quarter, when Wemby got tired, it flipped. And that was that. All right, I'm sure we missed 17 things, but Kurt Goldsberry, Joe House, appreciate you guys. We're gonna take a break, come back, I have a little mini mailbag for the audience right after this.

• 41:12Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. USA fans, we got one for you. FanDuel dropping a massive USA Super Boost for the matchup on Friday against Paraguay. Right now, all customers can win up to $25 if the USA has one plus shot. One plus shot on goal, that's it. Whether it comes early or late, from outside the box, right in front of the goal, every attack will feel a little bit bigger. You're just gonna be ready for one shot to get on the net. Back to USA, get in on this huge Super Boost before kickoff. Visit FanDuel.com/BS to get started right now. 21-plus select states or 18-plus DC, Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut.

• 41:59Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Holiday Inn by IHG. If I'm ever traveling for work, which I try not to travel too often, but I do travel for work. And where I stay is super duper important. I like an easy check-in process. I like to be able to hang up all my stuff really quickly. I like a TV with a remote control that can do some stuff. I'm, I'm pretty easy for the most part, but I like to feel like it's just a nice place. This sounds like you. Check out Holiday Inn. Has a whole new energy, especially for business travelers. You'll see it everywhere from refreshed rooms to reimagine social spaces and dining done right with new drinks and dishes. And for business, there are flexible spaces that work for the way you work.

• 42:44Bill Simmons?

  It's a new day. It's a new stay. Book now at holidayinn.com. All right, we can do a little mini mailbag here because I'm not going to have another podcast until Saturday night. So I wanted to give some content for the next couple of days. This mini mailbag, this segment sponsored by New Era. And you guys sent me some great questions. As always, you can send them to [email protected]. Thanks for all the nice notes and nice things people say. It gives me faith in society that we're still nice people. Couple thoughts here on home court advantage. So we'll start there. Harrison from Cincinnati. When I was talking about with Mahoney about why doesn't home court advantage matter like it used to?

• 43:28Bill Simmons?

  Harrison from Cincinnati said, what about dating apps? Players no longer need to go to a bar or club to pick up girls on the road anymore. Now they can just hop on a top dating app like Rye or check their Instagram DMs and invite someone to their hotel room without needing to drink or stay out late. Maybe this is the single biggest reason of the downfall of home court advantage. You know, I wanted to laugh at this and then I was thinking about how players probably met people in, uh, in the nineties and the 2000s versus how they be now. And it's probably a way easier to be more discreet and meet people without having to actually go out in the general public and stay up late and do all that stuff. So can't be ruled out. Jalen Rose and I always used to have a joke when, uh, when athletes would get into a town and they would say on Twitter,

• 44:12Bill Simmons?

  you know, they would be landing in Miami and they'd be like, what's good Miami? And then you would just get all these DMs from whoever that, who, people that knew you were in Miami. Yeah, maybe, maybe that is part of it. Maybe people are out until five in the morning at clubs anymore. Oliver from Chicago wants to know, is it possible athletes are just better at handling the pressure? They're bigger, stronger, faster over the time. Is it possible they've also improved at handling their pressure and emotions too? This is follow up from Jake from Minneapolis. What about the impact sports psychologists have on modern players? Top prospects recruits, college players all work with professional psychologists, mental health experts, whoever prepare them to play in these type of environments, big games, handle the backlash.

• 44:57Bill Simmons?

  The impact of mental health to me is the most glaring difference from 30, 50 years from now.

• 45:02Bill Simmons?

  It's tough because I remember doing an interview with Adam Silver at the Sloan Conference when he said actually he was the most worried he'd ever been about the mental health of players because of social media and people being online all the time and the tribalism of social and how fast people can mobilize against somebody or try to make them look bad, not to mention AI and all the other things. So I, to me, that's an even out. I don't, I wouldn't say that is a factor, but I do wonder like, maybe, maybe some of the psychology of sports, we're getting a little better about, about handling adversity. Maybe that's a little better. This is a theory from Nick from Cleveland. With all the AAU teams, these guys have played probably a thousand different gyms over the years. They're constantly waking up, driving three hours, playing for six hours, coming home,

• 45:48Bill Simmons?

  eating McDonald's breakfast, getting back in the car, driving somewhere else. An 8:30 finals game after a day off is a walk in the park compared to what they probably dealt with for 10 years, along with proper sleep nutrition. Makes sense to me that they're better. Not against that. There's definitely, definitely, you're bouncing around more and you know, a gym is a gym after a while.

• 46:13Bill Simmons?

  This is the big one. A couple of people brought this up with the refs because I mentioned with Mahoney like, You really felt like you could sway the refs, especially there was two for a long time in the seventies and eighties. I can't remember when they went to three. There was, there's blood in the air. There were just outright, you can watch some of the stuff on YouTube. There were just some, some games that you just can't believe how one-sided the officiating was, which is so much harder to do now in the era of social media. I really feel like in the 2000s, this shifted with, from what was going on, basically from 1999 through the Miami Dallas series in 06, then Donahue happens in 07, and all of a sudden

• 46:56Bill Simmons?

  we got way better at kind of monitoring what was going on with refs. So there is a before, after of that. And then Mitchell Etna says, what about video review? Not just in-game requests for replays, but the constant drilling the NBA refs get from league offices and calls they got right and wrong. They have the performance report after the games, and they're hammering down on them left and right. Maybe the refs are just better at calling stuff. Well, don't tell the Knicks fans this after game three, even though we're taping this before game four. But it's, it's possible. I, I think it's way harder to have a completely terrible one-sided refereeing performance than it was, and there's probably more accountability for a variety of reasons. And Byron, a Pacer fan, and this is a tough playoffs to watch,

• 47:41Bill Simmons?

  he put in parentheses, said, "You can't affect refs nearly as much now because bad calls will be reviewed and made right. You can't be terrible homer refs because it'll be graded and scrutinized by everybody." So the refs are a piece of it. I think the travel, the more I thought about it, I think the travel is the number one thing, that it's just easier than it was in the seventies and eighties. The refs are more consistent. I mentioned the shooting motions with Rob, that, but that might, it's, it's a weird one, but there's just less variance. Everybody shoots the same. And then the three pointers is the other one, where the three pointers can swing any game possible. So, interesting topic. Patrick Franken wrote in about, um, he's a Milwaukee fan and, um, him and his fellow Buck

• 48:25Bill Simmons?

  fans are now obsessed with that 82-0 game, which I'm sure people that's taken over the internet the last seven, eight days, um, where you make these teams and you try to go 82-0 and you spin it and, um, there's a science to it. The best I've ever done is 80 and 2. I, I really get, now I do the harder one where you don't get to look at the stats and you'll, you get two spins, but I've just have never pulled off the 82-0 and it's when, now that the finals is, is about to go into a break for a couple of days, I'm going to make a more concerted effort, but, um, Patrick says, "Over the last two weeks, two guys have dominated our group chat. Truck Robinson and World B Free. Truck because of his awesome name and insane stat lines from the late 70s. Um, we're now down a YouTube rabbit hole of watching

• 49:10Bill Simmons?

  Truck highlights, including a 1978 game against the Spurs where he scored 39." And then he said, "World B Free, awesome name for the purposes 82-0, averaged 29 and 30 in the 78, 79 seasons we got traded to Clippers. None of us knew these guys existed prior to the game. My question to you is, can you spend two minutes breaking down one of their careers? Were they good stats, bad team guys? Could they have a better career in the right team?" Uh, he came to the right place. I can't think of anyone on the planet who's more excited to answer this question. So Truck Robinson and he used to be Lloyd Free. He changed his name to World B Free. Lloyd Free was on the Sixers. Truck Robinson was on the Bullets. Both of them played in the finals. Truck Robinson, 75 finals and, uh, Lloyd Free, 77 finals. They

• 49:54Bill Simmons?

  were bench guys with better players ahead of them. And then they got traded and their stats went way up. And Truck had, Truck had one of the craziest stat seasons I think of anyone in the history of the league compared to when you look at the rest of their career, where he averaged, he, he went to Washington, he signed a free agent, um, contract, I want to say with like Atlanta, but somehow ended up at New Orleans at one point and- Put up 23 and 15 for an entire year in the 78 season was first team all NBA. And this was a big stretch for power forwards where this was when we had the fight with Kermit Washington. They had Maurice Lucas, George McGinnis, Kermit Washington.

• 50:38Bill Simmons?

  You had Chuck Robinson, just a lot of big physical power forwards that were around there. At the same time Buck Williams eventually came in the league and Chuck was probably the best rebounder of all of them. Now, as a kid, I don't think I ever saw him play. He was barely ever in the playoffs with Pat. He was in the wrong conference, but he ended up getting traded again to Phoenix. And I think 79 playoffs made the Western Finals with them and they lost to Seattle. So he was in the mix in real games. And then in 81, they lost to the Kings, but that was a team that Suns team maybe could have made the finals too. He was good though. He was a banger, super physical, really good rebounder and ended up with the Nike poster. World be free.

• 51:20Bill Simmons?

  I was way more focused on as a little kid, going from being when just the ultimate Dion Waiters type guy in Philly goes to the Clippers and just 29 a game the first year, 30 a game in the second year and was really fun to watch in person. You'd think like now he would probably bomb, I don't know, 10 threes a game. Nobody, the three point line didn't even show up till 1980. But with him, kind of, first of all, he was bald, but he was one of those bald but had hair in the back. So he looked really distinct. He had this weird body, had like kind of no neck and strong arms and this really cool jump shot and was just this really physical scoring guard that could score on anybody and was a classic.

• 52:03Bill Simmons?

  Like if you played at the Clippers, World be free could just put up 47 and beat you by himself, no matter what team you were. The Celtics, the last great run he had, the Celtics had a four game series in 85 against him. And it was a great Larry Bird series, but he went toe to toe with World B and and World B finally kind of had a playoff moment. He never really from the moment went to when he left Philly was just never in the mix for the playoffs. So has this whole career. It's pre-league pass. It's pre Twitter.

• 52:38Bill Simmons?

  But he was cool and his Nike poster, I think, is one of the hardest ones to get. So these guys like, I'm not surprised. They're finally having an 82 and 0 moment when there was a microleague basketball. These were two of the seasons that were always great seasons because you know, how many guards have averaged 30 a game? So anyway, I'm glad congratulations to Truck and to World. And also the insanity of somebody changing their name from Lloyd Free to World B Free. Like it gives you a sense of what kind of character he was.

• 53:08Bill Simmons?

  Cody from Bloomington, Indiana said how me and Adam Friedland discussed the Nets having no identity had to break into the city and wondered if it could be like the Italian rivalry between Inter and AC Milan, where he thinks the Nets' strategy should be to go in only on international players. He said Inter and AC Milan have a deep rivalry initially based on AC Milan wanting to have primarily Italian players and Inter, I hope I'm saying that right, wanted to bring in international players, cause more of a class divide between fans, Inter fans being part of the bourgeois.

• 53:45Bill Simmons?

  Milan fans were a little more working class. This sounds great. I didn't know any of this stuff. But he said how lifelong New Yorkers will always be Knicks fans. So maybe the Nets should cater to the multi multicultural aspects of the city and go with an all international team. Honestly, best idea I've heard for the Nets all decade. You're not going to beat the Knicks conventionally. You're never going to get the city to care about them. If this whole last two months didn't tell you once and for all that you're a second class citizen, you might even be like a fifth class citizen. I like the international plan. I'm going to pass that along to the size who I don't know.

• 54:22Bill Simmons?

  James was saying how when I, we were talking about how Chet had to go to the Australian Outback. I forget who was on that podcast, like Dirk Nowitzki, to get his game back. And, uh, and he was saying, here are my three options for him. A month in the Amazon rainforest, climb Mount Everest. He could be the tallest person ever to climb Mount Everest. And then, uh, he said embed himself in a Ukrainian drone factory. Learn from the experts about protecting home court, learn an underdog mentality and, uh, just garner some incredible goodwill.

• 55:02Bill Simmons?

  I thought about this Chet thing. I'm not sure he's at that dark point yet, the more I think about it. Guess what? Wemby's destroying everybody.

• 55:11Bill Simmons?

  He needs to figure out this summer. I would advise him not to go on vacation, but he needs to figure out how to get his three-point shot off faster. So that when he plays Wemby, he can go in the corner and release a shot faster than Wemby can come out and challenge a shot. And that would be my advice. I would, I'm not ready for him to go to a Ukrainian drone factory yet, but maybe we're a year away. Eric Moore wants to know, is Brunson's dad the most embarrassing parent in pro sports right now? So, I mean, this was LeVar, LeVar Ball's title forever. This would be a really fun championship belt to pass along. The most embarrassing port, uh, most embarrassing parent championship belt holder year by year. There's been some, some classics.

• 55:54Bill Simmons?

  Brunson's dad, so I go back and forth on this because I thought it was really lame when he crossed midcourt. Nobody else, first of all, you're not allowed to cross midcourt when you're a coach, right? You're, it's midcourt line only, but when Fox and Brunson got into it earlier in the series and Rick Brunson walks all the way over and just kind of became a dad. It was like watching, um, you know, somebody in a 10-year-old AYSO game, getting upset at the refs and just deciding they could walk in the field. And then started talking shit to Fox and the announcers kind of let it go. I thought it was pretty embarrassing, actually. I thought it was weird. Counter, though, I think Brunson might be the enforcer of this Knicks team.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  He might, you know, they don't really count Zaninobi, Mikal Bridges, Brunson. Josh Hart gets a little feisty sometimes. Mitchell Robinson can throw some elbows, but if there was ever like a brawl, I feel like Rick Brunson would be the first guy in it. So in some ways, it's a little embarrassing that he still behaves like he's coaching an 11-year-old AAU team with his son. On the other hand, he might be the toughest guy on the bench. So I think LeVar Ball still has his title. Adam from Waterloo, Ontario says, I talked about the prolonged misery misery title belt, about how the Knicks are probably the most miserable team with the most fans. Toronto's

• 57:17Bill Simmons?

  in there, too. And Adam points out, there's really a ton of parallels between the Knicks and the Leafs. A title drought of 50-plus years, center of the universe for their respective sport, having to deal with the fact that their biggest rival is actually the more decorated franchise, the Celtics and the Habs. So the Celtics for the Knicks and in the the Canadians, one of my least favorite franchises. I'm so excited they didn't win this year. For the Maple Leafs, hell, the Leafs have even endured their own Dolan S. batshit owner situation. Go ahead and Google Harold Ballard. Pretty good Google. The Leafs are at least 20% of the reason that Will Arnett still smokes cigarettes. Can't speak to that. And then he said, my favorite part of this email is that you have

• 58:00Bill Simmons?

  to acknowledge the Celtics are the Habs of the NBA. I think this is a great parallel. And even though Toronto doesn't have as many fans and they have the generations of fans like the Knicks do, the city's not as big as New York, but it's big. It's one of the biggest Canadian cities. And if they ever really got into the finals, the way the Knicks did, with a good team that had a chance to win, I think we'd be running all of the same checkmarks that we're running with the Knicks right now. So I like that. I didn't really like your joke about the Celtics being the Habs of the NBA. Someone ignore that. This is a good one, from Jeffrey Thompson.

• 58:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, no, I'm sorry. This is from Michael in Los Angeles. Then the next one's from Jeffrey Thompson. I feel like anytime a role player has a good game in the playoffs, everyone's too quick to anoint it as the blank game. Alex Crusoe goes off against the Spurs and started the Crusoe game. Luke Cornet makes a game altering block. It's the Luke Cornet game. Not really. We said in the moment, but he said, which the blank games do you think stand the test of time? What's in the running for the best the blank game along with Jordan's flu game? I put some thought into this. I'm going to give us some thought starters and I'm not ready to have a final list yet, but just off the top of my head,

• 59:24Bill Simmons?

  these were the 10 that came to mind for games. The Robert Horry game. Now, he's the king of this. I wrote a whole column about this for ESPN that I then kind of turned into the Robert Horry chapter in my book about the best thing about Robert Horry is if you said, oh yeah, the Robert Horry game, you wouldn't know which game you were talking about. It could have been the shot he made against Sacramento. It could have been that unbelievable barrage of points that he scored in game five against Detroit when Rashid fouled him at the end, which is one of the dumbest plays of the century. But he had multiple Robert Horry games, but he's a good one. The Steve Kerr game, 2003 Dallas game six, Steve Kerr, it's like a sports movie. Steve Kerr barely playing anymore,

• 1:00:09Bill Simmons?

  comes in, hits four threes and it's great. And it's the Steve Kerr game. You know that one immediately. The Bennett Salvatore game, game five, 2006 finals. Yeah. The OJ game, not OJ Mayo, OJ Simpson, game five of the 1994 finals. That's a really good one because that was the car chase split screen. The JR Smith game, game one, 2018. Derek Fisher game. There might be some people pushing for game four of the finals against Orlando. I think it was game four when, I think it was Rafer Alston, maybe Jameer Nelson, one of those guys didn't realize Fisher was going to shoot a three with nine seconds left and the Lakers are down three. Some of the worst defense of that decade. But the Derek Fisher game is a 0.4 seconds shot against the Spurs.

• 1:00:55Bill Simmons?

  The Heat game, this is for Boston fans only. This was game five of the 1984 finals when it was 100 plus degrees and Larry Bird somehow wasn't, wasn't phased by the elements. The Jason Terry game, underrated. Game five, 2011, Dallas, when he hits, I think

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  the number one Heat check shot I've ever seen in person.

• 1:01:20Bill Simmons?

  He's, they're, they have the lead, there's like 30 seconds left. Either Wade or LeBron, I haven't seen in a while, Wade or LeBron gets switched on him. And the shot clock's running down a little bit, but he's maybe four feet behind the line.

• 1:01:36Bill Simmons?

  And just says, fuck it, and takes this three and makes it. And the crowd absolutely lost their shit. The Mavs fans know what I'm talking about. This was, as great as that Dirk was that whole time, and it was the Dirk, and that's it. He's the story from that. Jason Terry making that three, you could argue was the greatest moment in Mavs history. It was so incredible to be there for that. And I still can't believe he took it. Cause it wasn't, we love Jason Terry, but it wasn't like he was the best guy in the team. It was like, I'm not even sure Kobe would have taken this. And he was just like, fuck it, I'm taking it. But I love that one. So that's the Jason Terry game for me. And then you have the flu game. And then you have the Artest melee, which is in the Artest game. But those were the 10 that jumped to mind for me.

• 1:02:21Bill Simmons?

  The flu game is still the number one. Biggest impact, most important, most famous blank the game, or the blank game. And really important to the Jordan legacy. Jeffrey Thompson sent us before game three. He said, if the Spurs win game three and whatever happens after is bad for the Knicks,

• 1:02:43Bill Simmons?

  will we call it the Trump game?

• 1:02:48Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 1:02:50Bill Simmons?

  If the Knicks lose this series, which, you know, we're doing this midway through the series, but I think the Trump game will rise into that group that I just mentioned. Well, you'll know immediately what the Trump game was.

• 1:03:04Bill Simmons?

  Elias Posey from Milwaukee says, "You mentioned comparisons between Kat and various players, and how they turned their careers around improbably and became impactful playoff guys." I did that on Sunday's pod. I think you missed an obvious parallel. Pau Gasol to Towns, very talented big men, questions about their ability to be top-level championship guys. You pair them up with all-time leaders, clutch guys, Jalen, we're throwing him in there. And through proximity, that guy levels up into a true number-two option. Maybe not as many questions with Pau, but I think that's the closest comp." I think that's great. I'm mad at myself that I didn't think of that. You forget, after the 2008 Finals, even after the trade and they make the Finals with them, there were still questions about, "Is Pau tough enough to be the guy,

• 1:03:50Bill Simmons?

  the number-two guy on a title team? Is this a good enough wingman for Kobe?" And he shed that. And I still, I'm gonna duck. The Laker fans are gonna get so mad.

• 1:04:03Bill Simmons?

  There was a real case for Pau to be the 2010 Finals MVP. I'm already in the record. I always think the best player in a team should win unless they're an absolute disaster. But I thought Pau was awesome in that series. And if we're gonna do the Iggy Dalla Curry thing, or we're gonna do the Jalen Brown over Tatum thing, and that's just our mentality with picking Finals MVPs, that we're not bringing in who's the best player, who has the biggest responsibility. I thought Pau swung game seven. Like, that series came down to one game, and Pau going against KG, who admittedly wasn't the same KG after the surgery, and no Kendrick Perkins, and Rasheed Wallace playing 35 minutes, basically passing out on the court.

• 1:04:44Bill Simmons?

  Pau bullied us that game, and I sat behind the basket second half. He bullied us. And he's the reason I thought they won game seven, so. Yeah, that Towns versus Pau, good one. Corey wants to know from Kelona, Kalona, if you could put Wemba Yama on any team from the past, who would you pick? Just for fun. And he said, as a British Columbia guy, I'm biased towards Steve Nash. Put Wemby on those Suns teams. And I think it would have been unbelievable, he said. You could also just put them on the Jordan Bulls, Curry, Durant. Well, that's not fun. I was thinking 80s Lakers. If you put him, if you just time machined him in for Kareem,

• 1:05:29Bill Simmons?

  for the 87 and 88 teams, what that would look like? This is a very strange question. Yeah, but Steve Nash, maybe, maybe the answer is Steve Nash. I was trying to think of centers that would have, it just would have, Wemby would have been unleashed versus the center they had. And tough question. You broke my brain with that one. I'm much more ready to talk about World Be Free and Chuck Robinson. Nat H. in Oakland wants to know, I listened to your podcast with Mahoney. You detailed all the finals MVPs with funky results. Igudala, Tony Parker, Jaylen Brown. Why don't replace, why don't we replace finals MVP with playoffs MVP? Playoffs MVP would clear up all of this.

• 1:06:14Bill Simmons?

  I pushed for this hard in my book. And I even laid out who all the playoff MVPs would be. And I have a document that has all of it out and it's very helpful. Like, the ultimate example of this is Tim Duncan in 2007. If you handed out playoff MVP, he wins. He was the most important player in that team. He should have won. And there's no record, because the finals MVP went to Parker and that's all we had, of him being the most important player in that team. I would say the same for Tatum in 2024, by the way. In general, I like having it. And I think there's some good arguments, like 2015. The question would be, could a losing player win this? 2015.

• 1:06:56Bill Simmons?

  You could make a case LeBron could have been the playoffs MVP. With everything he did that throughout the entire playoffs, but I'd like. Here's the thing, who's not interested in this? I didn't really like the Eastern Western Conference Finals MVPs. Because I think, I think giving out awards before the end of. The championship, I think can. Screw a team up a little bit. I don't know if it was awesome for the 24 Celtics. I also don't like finals MVP because it's a small sample size, but I'm not against having it. If we had. Playoffs MVP too. And not only that, I would do like what they do with the NCAA where I would have.

• 1:07:39Bill Simmons?

  My, my first team, all playoffs team at the end of the year because. The whole point of this is you want to be able to look back at this 30 years from now and remember like, oh, what? Who was the best guy in the playoffs? Who was the best guy in the finals? Who are the best five guys? In the playoffs and like if you did it for. These playoffs, you would have Wemba Yama and you would have Jalen Brunson. You'd probably have towns. Right? So there's three. I think you would have Stefan Castle. As the fourth and then who's the fifth? If I was just picking like these are. Cause it doesn't just have to be guys who could be from the finals, right? Like maybe. Maybe SGA is your fifth guy on that.

• 1:08:18Bill Simmons?

  Or maybe it's. No, it's nobody from Cleveland.

• 1:08:23Bill Simmons?

  But anyway, I like that. I like when the more we can do to capture snapshots of a season, the more happen. And then the last question I got. Just a lot of where's Yanis going? Where do you think he's going? Is the trade going to happen before then?

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  I thought Boston was out of this.

• 1:08:44Bill Simmons?

  I know Boston was out of this.

• 1:08:47Bill Simmons?

  And I was wondering if they were playing possum or not.

• 1:08:54Bill Simmons?

  I think they were playing a little possum. I think they ran on Giannis. So I'm not recanting what I said before. I I don't really know the reasons for it. Maybe they felt like Miami's offer is an offer they could beat.

• 1:09:12Bill Simmons?

  Maybe they wanted to drive, maybe they want to drive the price of Miami's offer up and they don't actually have interest in him. But as I said over and over again, Giannis is pushing for Miami or Boston. Those are the two locations and really wants to end up in Boston. Because it would have the best chance to win a title. And I think Boston is not ruling out the idea. Is, is my intel. And in general, I'm prepared for anything of Boston now.

• 1:09:42Bill Simmons?

  I, I think you could basically say.

• 1:09:46Bill Simmons?

  I'm prepared. It goes back to the Brad Stevens speech right after the Philly series. When he was really mad about the result and really questioning whether this was the right style and whether they needed to be in the paint more. And I, I wonder if they're going to use this opportunity with the assets they have with the $27 million trade exception.

• 1:10:10Bill Simmons?

  To completely change what this team looks like. So who knows? They might not do anything. But I thought they were sitting out this Giannis thing and I no longer think that. That's all I'm going to say. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back with Cousin Sal and Anthony DiBundo and we're going to talk World Cup. This episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Torturo gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Torturo stars as an aging master pickpocket. Whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito,

• 1:10:52Bill Simmons?

  Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York, opens in theaters. October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles nationwide October 30th. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a three one series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save savings vary. All right, the World Cup is here.

• 1:11:36Bill Simmons?

  Anthony DiBundo is in Los Angeles. Cousin Sal is also in Los Angeles. Somehow they're not together, but they are on the Ringer Gambling Show and we have the World Cup.

• 1:11:44Speaker 04

  Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You are not there either. Nobody wants to be with DiBundo.

• 1:11:49Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was a three person Zoom. I thought it was going to be everybody on Zoom.

• 1:11:54Speaker 04

  So upset. He's like, why did they put me on a bus to stay in a hotel and blog three blocks from Skid Row? What am I doing? No one comes to see him.

• 1:12:02Bill Simmons?

  He's.

• 1:12:02Speaker 04

  I came to LA, I'm staying downtown and I'm like, okay, they're going to go to Hollywood to go to the Sycamore Studio. I'm like, great, can't wait to see it. Sal, what time you coming in? He said, coming in. I'm not doing that. Then I have to get lunch with you. No way.

• 1:12:16Bill Simmons?

  We have him in Skid Row, working on ballots, sending in for ramen to try to lock down second place.

• 1:12:23Bill Simmons?

  Guys, the World Cup is here. It's six weeks. Sal, you always get really sad after the NBA Finals and then you make some NBA draft bets and then you talk yourself into Wimbledon and then you lose some bets on that. And then July is just a wasteland for you, but now you have World Cup every day, basically. And then my favorite thing about you is you pretend you know what's going on in the World Cup. Dabbundo actually knows. Who has a bigger advantage? You or Dabbundo? You bandwagon soccer fan coming in or Dabbundo who's thought about this way too much?

• 1:12:51Speaker 04

  Oh, I would hope that he has the advantage. I mean, I'm actually excited for him. He, because he has never, he has gone on record saying he's never been this excited for an event. He told me in private, he hasn't been this excited since the first time a woman touched this piece of deal, which is like, like six weeks ago. So it's a vivid memory.

• 1:13:08Bill Simmons?

  April 27th. He said he had the date.

• 1:13:12Speaker 04

  No, it's good for you, Dabbundo.

• 1:13:14Bill Simmons?

  Dabbundo, what's your favorite thing about this? Is it America rooting for the host country or the bets?

• 1:13:22Speaker 05

  It's just everything surrounding the world. It's the fact that once the games kick off, we don't have to talk about FIFA. We don't have to talk about ticket prices. We don't have to talk about all the kind of disastrous stuff that's happened in the lead up to this World Cup. We get to talk about the games, the culture. I mean, all the videos that are coming out. You've got this German guy who's like doing a tour of the American South and he's got a huge following, just going to fast food places and sporting events. And people are like, this is so cool. You've got people in Kansas who are like, we're so happy to root for Algeria because they they chose to come stay with us in Lawrence, Kansas, right? So that is the beauty of this tournament is that at the end of the day, we're all coming together to watch sports. And like, yes, I'll of course be rooting for my bets.

• 1:14:04Speaker 05

  I'll be adopting other countries, hoping the US doesn't let us down. But there's just so much to get excited about for this.

• 1:14:10Bill Simmons?

  So who do you root for now that Italy's not involved somehow?

• 1:14:14Speaker 04

  I know, I know.

• 1:14:15Bill Simmons?

  We lost our home country.

• 1:14:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, we did lose our home country and I'll root for the US. But let's get it off the table. It's not a good bet, the US futures. I'm sorry, because every book, it's like the biggest liability. If US wins, like this is, this is betting Conor McGregor against Floyd, right? Like this is, every line should be different. Dabbundo, am I wrong about that? Have they adjusted?

• 1:14:38Bill Simmons?

  No, they're not adjusting.

• 1:14:39Speaker 05

  We're not going to win the World Cup. We're not going to win the World Cup. But if we did win the World Cup, I said this in Sweden last week to a few of our other soccer fans at The Ringer, I think I might be done with sports if we win the World Cup, done with soccer. There's no reason, there's nothing that will ever top that in soccer. So why am I even hanging around? I'm done.

• 1:14:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, we don't have to worry about it. It's not happening.

• 1:14:57Speaker 05

  We don't, exactly.

• 1:14:58Speaker 04

  Well, now I'm rooting for it. I want Dabbundo to be done with soccer. This would be great.

• 1:15:02Bill Simmons?

  Let's start with that. All of these bets are on Fandor, all these odds. USA to make the final 16 is minus 130, which seems high to me. Like really, that's better than even odds that the USA is going to be one of the 16 teams left? Do you buy that one at all? That seems like a bad price.

• 1:15:21Speaker 05

  And we just talked about this on the Ringer Gambling Show, actually. I do think that we're at the point now with the US men's national team where maybe everybody's a little too down on them.

• 1:15:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, are you zagging? This is exciting.

• 1:15:34Speaker 05

  I'm making the case.

• 1:15:35Bill Simmons?

  I love this.

• 1:15:37Speaker 05

  They have not really lived up to the hype of this golden generation. And people have had a whole hundred think pieces and theories on, on why it is that the US hasn't been what we all hoped they would be. But the number one reason is that this group of players, this core group, it's, it's, you could talk about the heart, all those other things. They have not been healthy. Tyler Adams, Christian Pulisic, Weston McKenney, Sergino Dest, all these key players for the Americans have missed a ton of soccer over the last four years, to the point where you can basically count on one hand, the number of games they have played with a full strength team in the last four years. And it's still fragile, but the team that they're rolling up with on Friday night against Paraguay is about as healthy as they're going to be.

• 1:16:21Speaker 05

  Chris Richards is still in doubt, but it looks like he's going to start. So why not the United States? This is the, still the most talented group. They have a system that I think works in this, this back three that Pochettino's adopted. They have a ton of pressing energy and right now, for at least the first game, they're healthy in a group that's pretty winnable. I'm buying, I'm buying the US.

• 1:16:41Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Sal, what are your thoughts?

• 1:16:44Speaker 04

  Well, I think that number that you just read minus 130, it probably should be plus 140. I think people are betting out of their minds here. And let's look at Friday night. Like, USA is minus 110. Are they going to give free money out Friday night? Like, everybody looks at that, oh, what a convenient number, minus 110. That's what we all deal with. It's a coin flip game. That's got draw written all over it, the bundle. You know it does.

• 1:17:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, we gotta go through. I, I still don't understand the soccer betting. The three odds are minus 110, plus 240, and plus 330.

• 1:17:17Bill Simmons?

  So, plus, so one of those is the draw. Plus 240? We're betting like, after 90 minutes?

• 1:17:27Bill Simmons?

  It's a tie game, plus 240. Even Sal doesn't want to bet that. And Sal loves, Sal loves nothing more than betting on the things nobody else wants to bet on.

• 1:17:36Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:17:37Bill Simmons?

  You can't even talk yourself into a draw. You're the same person who bets on no buzzer beaters at March Madness, which is the least fun bet an American human being can make.

• 1:17:46Speaker 04

  It's the most fun.

• 1:17:46Bill Simmons?

  I don't even think you would bet on the draw.

• 1:17:48Speaker 04

  I wouldn't. What I like to do is with soccer, because, you know, I love waking up and having money on something. So I'm EPL all year and everything, but I like the double chance. And the bundle laughs at me, but I like to find a dance partner with the double chance, which means the US either draws or wins. That's plus half a goal at minus 475. And then I parlay it with six other things that lose. So that's what I would do. It's not necessarily taking the draw, but it's covering yourself a little bit.

• 1:18:16Speaker 05

  One of my favorite parts of working with Sal, you know, the last year or so, is that it'll be like a random Tuesday afternoon and I'll be just at my desk or something and I'll get a text from Sal, "Real Madrid plus a half" with like a money bag sign next to it. And like they scored like a last second goal to tie.

• 1:18:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:32Speaker 05

  At like 3:30 in the afternoon and he's just locked in on Real Madrid.

• 1:18:36Bill Simmons?

  And he's celebrating?

• 1:18:38Speaker 04

  Four more legs to, I have like three more UFC guys to win before I cash that parlay. But yeah, yeah, it's, it's, that's how it goes.

• 1:18:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, the bigger gambling story with you guys is the French Open, I think bankrupted, both of you?

• 1:18:51Speaker 04

  Oh, terrible.

• 1:18:52Bill Simmons?

  What happened? How do you declare for bankruptcy, Bundo? Is it like, do you have to go through Spotify? Is it like an individual thing? How does it work?

• 1:19:00Speaker 05

  You tell me, Bill. I don't know. I have to, I got a text from Danny Heifetz like three minutes after Sinner lost. He goes, "Are you still liquid?" I hadn't heard from Heifetz in like a month and a half. He's been ducking my calls.

• 1:19:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:11Speaker 05

  He's been busy, you know, I think he got married or something.

• 1:19:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 05

  Yeah, he's, he's on his honeymoon now. It's the summer of Heifetz, but he still managed to get in a text to me that said, "Hey, you still liquid after Sinner just died in the heat? Barely. We are still liquid."

• 1:19:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, so you know more about tennis than literally any human being I know, right? How did we not factor in the French Open gets super hot and this means anybody could die in the heat? And who were the top five people most likely to die in the heat? Where was that conversation? Cause Sal, I know I didn't have it with the bundle. Did he have it with anyone?

• 1:19:45Speaker 05

  No, we talked about it. We just chose to ignore it.

• 1:19:48Speaker 04

  This is what he does. He has all this knowledge and he knows the players and he waits for you to talk about a matchup. And then he loves to correct you on the pronunciations of, oh, it's Swiatak. It's not Sviatak. It's there's an N in there somewhere. It's like, screw you. You told me Sinner at minus 275 was undervalued and I didn't know it freaking cramped up like my wife the third week of, you know, whatever. I don't want to get into it, but for God's sakes, you're betting against cramps in these French Open.

• 1:20:14Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:20:14Speaker 04

  Hot, warm weather tournaments.

• 1:20:16Bill Simmons?

  Well, it really sounds like global warming is now changing the French Open that we once knew and that anybody could just, it could be 98 degrees and somebody could just die. I've never seen, the highlights of that Sinner match were unbelievable. And I don't know why you don't just retire when it gets to that point. You're basically just like a boxer wobbling around, falling into the ropes and all that stuff. All right, we digress.

• 1:20:38Speaker 05

  I mean, he's not the only one too. There was a bunch of players. I mean, one player, Menschek collapsed on the court. He had to be wheelchaired off and then he won his next match and then won another match after that. So, you know, Casper Rude had a, had a heat stroke, went into the, to the locker room, came back and then won the match. So, I don't know. It's, it's crazy, but global warming is the biggest threat to Yannick Sinner's tennis dynasty.

• 1:20:59Bill Simmons?

  No question. Um, all right. USA, Paraguay, Friday night, SoFi Stadium, Los Angeles, California. And basically they're saying USA is dead even to win. It feels like this is the sucker bet of a lifetime, just to grab USA to win. What, what is the case for not making this bet, the bundle, other than it's a sucker bet?

• 1:21:23Speaker 05

  Paraguay's really good defensively. Uh, that's their calling card. They only give up 10 goals in South America during qualifying. Uh, they're a very defensively organized team with a ton of like pressing defensive energy. So traditionally, the US has kind of struggled against these kind of teams, especially the South American ones, because what the US lacks is that deep lying passer, that player who can make that special pass that unlocks a defense that's very tightly congested. But I will say, and this is why I like the back three, they are freeing up Anthony Robinson and Sergino Dest, who are traditionally fullbacks at the club level. They're playing more like as wingers almost essentially in this system. And I think Dest could be one of the keys to unlocking some of these more defensive teams,

• 1:22:06Speaker 05

  because he's so effective at getting in space on the right and then playing crosses in. He has a really good connection with Pulisic. They connected at the last World Cup. They connected for the opening goal against Senegal in the friendly there. So I think Dest is kind of one of the underrated X factors for them trying to break down a team that's going to make it as difficult as possible to score.

• 1:22:24Bill Simmons?

  Sal, I'm gonna just end up betting us because I'm going to the game and I want to root for it.

• 1:22:28Speaker 05

  Why not?

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  I have to ask though, your son Jack, Hall of Fame zagger, loves women against the stream more than anybody. It feels like him not rooting for USA has to be in play right now, right? What country has he picked that's not America?

• 1:22:43Speaker 04

  He likes Cameroon, of course, yeah. I feel that's old news. I feel like that's a 90s World Cup team that you would like, but.

• 1:22:50Bill Simmons?

  So he's in, Cameron, did he get the jersey?

• 1:22:53Speaker 04

  He likes Cameroon, yes. There's something, there's the Amazon guys banging on our door right now. I'm sure there's some kind of Cameroon-ish item coming here.

• 1:23:00Speaker 05

  Sal, is he aware that they're not in the World Cup?

• 1:23:04Speaker 04

  Uh, no, I don't think he knows.

• 1:23:05Bill Simmons?

  Don't tell him, don't tell him. He'll just be searching for the games.

• 1:23:09Speaker 05

  Their first game is in four years.

• 1:23:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm on pins and needles waiting to see who he picks on the fly on Friday when he realizes they're not actually in.

• 1:23:20Speaker 04

  I'm going Sean O'Malley, Sean O'Malley, UFC parlayed with USA plus a half a goal. And that gets it to like minus 170 or something stupid.

• 1:23:30Bill Simmons?

  Sean O'Malley with USA plus half a goal?

• 1:23:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:23:35Bill Simmons?

  So USA has to score a goal?

• 1:23:37Speaker 04

  We could add something there.

• 1:23:38Speaker 05

  No, they just have to. No, they just need to not lose.

• 1:23:41Bill Simmons?

  Need to not, alright, got you. So they're basically minus or plus 0.5 goals.

• 1:23:45Speaker 04

  Plus a half, yep, that's it.

• 1:23:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Sal, I know you've studied this probably way longer than you should have. There's two different ways to look at who's gonna win the World Cup. One is who do you think's gonna win? And the second is what's the best value to bet on? You and I always tend to gravitate toward value over the actual logical. Here's who we think's gonna win. So what is your value pick for the World Cup?

• 1:24:10Speaker 04

  My value pick, believe it or not, is Europe to win at minus 350.

• 1:24:16Bill Simmons?

  Europe, the continent?

• 1:24:18Speaker 04

  The whole continent, yes. The Bundo, don't laugh at these winners. This is a winner. You don't, you don't think, right? I mean, we might get an all final four. You think we could get an all European final four, right? Like Portugal, England, France, Spain. It should be one through four there. And the Bundo has taken Spain after all this, after all the money Spotify's had to send them out here. He's just taken the favorite after all this. But you could expand.

• 1:24:42Speaker 05

  It does feel like the coward's way out. I know, I hate it.

• 1:24:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:24:45Speaker 05

  Also, their best player is not playing in the start of the tournament and has a hamstring injury, grade two, that he's coming back from. So we'll see what it looks like with Yamal when he gets into the, into the tournament. But ultimately, by process of elimination, I crossed off everybody else and was like, I guess I'm picking Spain.

• 1:25:00Bill Simmons?

  So who do I get with Europe at minus 350? Cause the favorites right now, the top eight are Spain, France, England, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, Germany, Netherlands, and then Belgium and Norway after that.

• 1:25:14Bill Simmons?

  And we all know England's not winning the World Cup. So you, you have Europe, but also knowing that they're, well, it is England. This is, yeah, this is, um, although maybe if the Knicks win the finals, maybe, maybe now England is on the table. Maybe anything's possible. But do you like that minus 350 to Bundo or no? You seem like you're scoffing at it.

• 1:25:34Speaker 05

  No, no, I, I do agree. I think the three best teams, and I think they're a, a small tier above the rest, are Spain, France, and England. England, I think, is the best defense in the field. France is the most talented team in terms of just naming guys, but you know, they're, they're a squad that have kind of underperformed their talent in terms of the eye test the last few tournaments, especially at the Euros two years ago, when France looked pretty undercooked. They, they struggled to create chances at that, and they had a lot of the same players they do now. And then last year at the Nations League and this is why I picked Spain over France. Spain and France have played each of the last two summers in the semifinals. At the Euros, they beat them two to one and France really couldn't generate much in the whole second half. Spain just kept the ball and really dominated the second half of that game.

• 1:26:17Speaker 05

  And then last year in the Nations League, Spain won five, four, but it was five, one. It was a total demolition until France scored a bunch of consolation goals in the last five minutes, 10 minutes. So, you know, Spain has kind of been dominating France the last couple of summers. I don't think that much has changed. Same managers, same midfields, similar attacks. Lamine Yamal is kind of the one big X factor. If, if they play again in the semifinals, I don't know how you wouldn't favor Spain over France.

• 1:26:44Bill Simmons?

  So the biggest threat to minus three, 50 Europe is what?

• 1:26:49Speaker 05

  Argentina repeating?

• 1:26:51Speaker 04

  And but you also, aren't you shorting them in the group stages, Brazil and Argentina, or just Brazil?

• 1:26:57Speaker 05

  I'm shorting Brazil, yeah. I think Morocco's somewhat live there, yeah.

• 1:27:00Speaker 04

  Europe's good. Let's, let's get on that. Let's get some nice NFL money bundled together there, Simmons. We can get it.

• 1:27:07Bill Simmons?

  Can we parlay that with the Chiefs to win the AFC West? Oh, no, that bet's dead. What is our, what is our easy NFL bet that we could just throw in every year and feel great about it? We had the Pats to win the AFC East for the first 15 years I knew you, basically.

• 1:27:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:23Bill Simmons?

  And then it became the Chiefs for the AFC West is, do we have that team now? I don't feel like we do. It's kind of sad.

• 1:27:30Speaker 04

  Cardinals to come in fourth place? I don't know what we would do. Let me throw something your way.

• 1:27:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, I liked, I heard on gambling show, you talked about the Browns under five and a half wins. And you locked that down now post Miles Garrett trade? I thought that was, like, they're gonna play Sanders all year. Like, it's not like their schedule's super easy. Five and 12 or worse feels like the best over under I've heard for wins so far.

• 1:27:55Speaker 04

  We don't even have to hit it.

• 1:27:56Speaker 05

  It feels like there's, there's more NFL tanking teams than usual heading into the season. Jets, Cardinals, Dolphins, Browns.

• 1:28:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, because it's all the quarterbacks. This is, this is, we, this was the thing. And we all did bad with basketball over unders, the totality of them for the win totals. And the thing we didn't realize was with as many teams tanking as we're tanking, it actually weirdly shoved the records upwards. Because over and over again, you had two shitty teams that didn't want to win playing each other. So you had all these teams in the twenties and high twenties to bundle out. A team that's never won the World Cup will win the World Cup is plus 200.

• 1:28:37Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:28:38Speaker 05

  Terrible bet.

• 1:28:39Bill Simmons?

  Seems terrible because these are the countries.

• 1:28:41Speaker 05

  If you're looking, yeah.

• 1:28:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's Netherlands, Portugal, Belgium, Croatia, Hungary, basically.

• 1:28:48Speaker 05

  USA.

• 1:28:50Bill Simmons?

  And USA, but USA is not winning.

• 1:28:51Speaker 04

  Come on.

• 1:28:52Bill Simmons?

  So, so first time winner, no, is minus 260.

• 1:28:56Speaker 05

  I was about to say that if you're looking for like a bridge jumper bet, a huge like, we're just going to lay a huge number. That is my favorite one. There will be.

• 1:29:03Speaker 04

  That's better than Europe.

• 1:29:04Speaker 05

  The world cup. I think so, yes.

• 1:29:06Bill Simmons?

  Could we parlay Europe will win the world cup with, with that won't be a first time winner? I don't know if that, is that legal in Fanduel? Probably not.

• 1:29:16Speaker 05

  Probably a little too correlated, yeah.

• 1:29:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I like the no first time winner at minus 260. I like the odds more than the minus 350 for the Europe one.

• 1:29:24Speaker 04

  I'm doing both.

• 1:29:25Speaker 05

  The seven, there, there's seven teams that I think are, are in the quote unquote favorites tier. And you could break them up. You could say contender, pretender with, with all those seven. But six of those seven have won it. And the one team that has never won it is Portugal. And we're going to get into futures, I guess, a little bit later. But the, the Ronaldo problem is kind of the defining situation for Portugal right now. And how they solve that is not very obvious to me.

• 1:29:49Bill Simmons?

  The problem is that they probably shouldn't be playing him as much as everyone expects them to play him. And I feel like we were there four years ago with this.

• 1:29:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:29:58Bill Simmons?

  Right?

• 1:29:59Speaker 05

  We were and, and two years ago and last year and we're still doing it.

• 1:30:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So this is like LeBron, if LeBron's on the dream team at age 45, it's like, wow, it is LeBron. And you just kind of have to throw him out there.

• 1:30:12Speaker 05

  But I think LeBron would be more willing to take like a third or fourth chair role and be like a really good passer, IQ player. Ronaldo, they have built this entire attack around him. Portugal, most crosses of any international team the last two years. Their midfield is elite. They have probably the second best midfield at the tournament. Fernandez, Vitinha, Neves. Like, it's an amazing trio that can do a lot of different things. Fernandez just broke the record for assists in the Premier League, and yet they end up just playing all the crosses into Ronaldo. They have nobody who runs in behind. It's like, this is not optimal. And as a result of Ronaldo and Rafael Liao, their left winger, not really doing a lot of defensive work, their defense isn't that good. Like, they struggle defensively relative to the,

• 1:30:56Speaker 05

  you know, top elite teams. They're not as good defensively. So they have a manager who likes to attack. They have a manager who's relying on Ronaldo. And like, they just need to tell grandpa, like, they gotta take the keys from him. And say, you know, hey, you're allowed to go to the grocery store, but no more, no more highway driving, no more starting matches. But the problem is, it's Ronaldo. So how do you say it? Like, what do you say?

• 1:31:15Bill Simmons?

  We're having the exact, we're having the exact same problem right now with Chris Ryan. Like, he's on too many pods. People are saying, you gotta phase it back. He's at a different point of his career. No, I'm kidding. We love Chris Ryan.

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  Simmons, this reminds me of when you coached the, um, the celebrity basketball game. And then you try to take Snoop out. And he's like, no, I'm not coming out. Was it Snoop? Who was it?

• 1:31:36Bill Simmons?

  Snoop put himself back in. He just looked me in the eye and said, I'm gonna go back in. There was like five minutes left. I was like, okay, Snoop. It just, we kinda had a moment. No, Kevin Hart was the one I had to get. I just couldn't take him out, because he was the biggest star in the game. And, uh, and Michael B. Jordan, who was the best player in the game. And it's just like, oh, we could win if we just give Michael B. Jordan the ball. But Kevin Hart's doing ISO. I'm still mad about it.

• 1:32:00Speaker 05

  I mean, you, you go back four years ago, right? And this was the crazy thing that happened at the World Cup. Portugal started Ronaldo in the group stage. They played Switzerland in the round of 16, and they played this young, up and coming striker named Gonzalo Ramos, who's now at PSG. And Gonzalo Ramos scored a hat trick and they beat Switzerland 6-1. And everybody was like, that's it. They're moving on. Like, he's been, he's been usurped. The next match, they play Morocco. They lose 1-0. And everybody's like, well, you know, it wouldn't have happened if they had started Ronaldo. And then they went through the next qualifying cycle, and Ronaldo scored a bunch of goals against a lot of bad teams. He's still very capable if he just stands in the penalty area and, and creates space. He's got great instincts. The vet, the vet classic move. But- They get back to the international tournament, Euro 2024,

• 1:32:45Speaker 05

  and it almost got comical at the end. Like, it was kind of sad. Because he kept taking all the free kicks. He was trying to get his goal. Then they won a penalty kick against Slovenia. He missed the penalty, and he's crying on the field. And you're like, this is actually getting to the point where it's like a little uncomfortable. If you're trying to like do a hate watch, it's like, man, this is, I don't like Portugal, I bet against them, but like, this is, this is kind of awkward now. Uh, and here we are again. He shows up to the World Cup. I hope he gets a goal. Early on, they've got a, they've got a couple easy games to start the group. Uh, I think they'll be fine in the group stage. But you get to the knockouts, and I think they're vulnerable.

• 1:33:15Bill Simmons?

  What, isn't it only eight teams ever have won the World Cup? Or eight countries?

• 1:33:19Speaker 05

  Yes, eight countries.

• 1:33:21Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:33:21Speaker 05

  Italy, Uruguay, and then the big six favorites.

• 1:33:24Bill Simmons?

  Right. And Italy is no longer out. Okay, before we get to De Bundo's favorite futures, that Sal and I are gonna critique.

• 1:33:30Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:33:32Bill Simmons?

  Sal, are you a straight up? Or a parlay? Strategy guy for the World Cup? Because I think both you and I fall into trouble when we start grabbing things from different games and we talk ourselves into it. But it would seem like almost with World Cup, straight up would be the smarter way to play it. And yet neither of us are gonna do that.

• 1:33:51Speaker 04

  Of course not. In fact, I got a whopper to throw at you guys.

• 1:33:55Bill Simmons?

  Let's hear it.

• 1:33:56Speaker 04

  Before we get to the bundo. The bundo?

• 1:33:57Speaker 05

  I need, I need a legal pad.

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  Which one's the draw? You know, illegal pad, because I don't know if this is gonna work. But which one's the, which one's the draw? Which one screws me? Germany to beat Curacao on Sunday. Spain to beat Cape Verde on Monday. Norway to beat Iraq on the 16th. Brazil to beat Haiti on the 19th. France to beat Iraq on the 22nd. Pays 150.

• 1:34:21Bill Simmons?

  A five-teamer?

• 1:34:22Speaker 04

  Five-teamer. These are monster numbers, as you can imagine. It adds up to minus 150. Who screws us?

• 1:34:30Speaker 05

  Uh, whoo. I mean, I think Iraq is one of the three worst teams. I think Curacao is one of the three worst teams. Cape Verde is decent. And they're not good, but they're they could compete with Spain, especially without Yamal. And like Spain is liable to have one of those.

• 1:34:46Bill Simmons?

  You're picking Spain to win the whole thing and they can't get by Cape Verde on Monday? Are you kidding me?

• 1:34:51Speaker 05

  But yes, I mean, I think it's going to be a winner. I think that one of the storylines, if you're being critical of the expanded format, is to say that traditionally, the World Cup has not had a lot of blowouts in the in the group stage. There's just not that many bad, bad teams. The gap here is pretty big. I mean, Spain, three-goal favorite in their first game, Germany, three and a half goal. Like, there could be some real five, six-nil pastings. Whereas at the last World Cup, we only had like one or two in the whole tournament that were like that. This tournament with Haiti, Curacao.

• 1:35:21Bill Simmons?

  Expanded field.

• 1:35:21Speaker 05

  Qatar, you know, it's like there's some teams here that that really aren't on the level. So you could see some crazy blowouts more than you're used to seeing.

• 1:35:28Bill Simmons?

  With those multi multi-game parlays, do we worry about the heat at all with that French Open style? Because there's going to be some games that are super hot. And

• 1:35:36Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  in temperatures that are are pretty unusual for world-class soccer. And I'm wondering, could that swing one of these?

• 1:35:44Speaker 05

  One of the funniest photos slash videos from the Club World Cup last year, because, right? A lot of these players played in their club teams, played in in the US last summer, including Bayern. The players would actually sit in the locker room, in the dressing room during the first half, the subs, just so they wouldn't sit on the bench and overheat. It's like Bayern was like, we're going to keep our subs in the dressing room, in the air conditioning, watching on a TV screen for the first half. And then we'll bring them out for the second half. They'll be fresh. They won't be exhausted. I do wonder if we see that, because the studies have shown that any any soccer game that kicks off above 85 degrees, there is a noticeable decline in just output, pressing, shots, goals. The game just slows because the players don't have the stamina to play like that.

• 1:36:26Speaker 05

  It still favors the better teams, though, because they just have more good players they can bring on. You get five subs, it's a big advantage. So I think ultimately, like, you know, the the small minnow nations that don't have the subs are going to be the ones that hurt the most from the heat.

• 1:36:40Bill Simmons?

  Who has the most gingers, I guess, is what we're looking at.

• 1:36:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, true.

• 1:36:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Okay. Yeah, sunburnt people.

• 1:36:45Speaker 05

  I mean,

• 1:36:46Bill Simmons?

  We didn't have those.

• 1:36:47Speaker 05

  Scottish, Scottish, maybe?

• 1:36:49Bill Simmons?

  Right. Scottish. All right. Short Scottish.

• 1:36:52Speaker 05

  Norwegians.

• 1:36:53Bill Simmons?

  We didn't have those studies when my daughter is playing youth soccer in Norco at 103 degrees and we're doing two games in three hours and kids are collapsing in the field. We're like, pull them off, get a sub in. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you. So they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what. You're gonna want WeatherTech in your vehicle. Whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season,

• 1:37:37Bill Simmons?

  whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're gonna want WeatherTech. For American-made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather, visit weatherTech.com today. Wait, before we go to your futures, DeBundo, Serena Williams in Wimbledon? There's no way to, there's no, it's not on FanDuel.

• 1:37:59Speaker 05

  Is she playing singles?

• 1:38:03Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Are you following this? Is it, is, could it be doubles? Could it be singles? Like, it feels like we're drifting towards something and I feel like this story should be 100 times bigger than it is.

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  I mean, she played doubles yesterday, Tuesday, with Victoria Mboko, who's one of the top young up and coming players. She's Canadian. And they won comfortably in the first round. They played two players I'd never heard of. The crowd, though, at the Queen's Club in London was amazing. Just every seat filled. It has a chance to be a huge story, but they haven't come out with wild cards yet. I can't imagine that she's playing singles already.

• 1:38:40Bill Simmons?

  Can I give you my theory?

• 1:38:41Speaker 05

  She's in the doubles. Does she get on center court? Why not?

• 1:38:43Bill Simmons?

  Doubles for Wimbledon paving the way for a US Open in August.

• 1:38:49Speaker 05

  Singles run?

• 1:38:50Bill Simmons?

  Singles, yeah. Like, this is, I've always thought this. I've been predicting this for years. She's too, she's too great and she's too competitive. And now that her kids are a little bit older, I always thought, maybe, if she's at the US Open, that would be the fucking greatest thing that could happen for tennis. That would be like Tiger in 2019 at the Masters. Like, can you imagine the crowds for that? Can you imagine playing Serena at the US Open? Being the other person? Like, what a fucking nightmare.

• 1:39:19Speaker 05

  Well, you know, Venus did this Venus is not Serena, but Venus did this last summer. Uh, where she got a wild card in DC and she beat, uh, Peyton Sterns. And I think it was in the first round, like a top 30 player and DC was mobs for Venus Williams. Then she went to the US Open. They put her on the center court the first night against Carolina Mahova, who is a top 15 player. She won a, she won a set off her and I was sitting on the other court on Armstrong. And like, you could just feel it. Everybody kept looking over their shoulders because the roars coming from Arthur Ashe were so loud.

• 1:39:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Speaker 05

  And it was almost like distracting the players on Armstrong. And we're all sitting there like, damn, like, why aren't we at that match? Why are we at this match?

• 1:39:55Bill Simmons?

  So my two big summer predictions.

• 1:39:57Speaker 05

  That's, that's, not even Serena.

• 1:39:59Bill Simmons?

  Serena US Open, LeBron and the Warriors. I want to parlay that.

• 1:40:02Speaker 04

  Really?

• 1:40:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, those two together. I'm convinced both of those things are happening.

• 1:40:06Speaker 04

  Can we add something that, um, Fandel just threw on the menu there that Bill's voice doesn't last six and a half NBA games? You adopted Doc Rivers' voice. What happened now?

• 1:40:17Bill Simmons?

  I just need to retire. It's just too much talking this year. Doing two hour rewatchables, doing live episodes. I'm just dying.

• 1:40:25Speaker 05

  I love it. Bill, Bill really needed Nixon. He needed Nixon four because his voice wasn't going to make Nixon six.

• 1:40:31Speaker 04

  Doc Simmons.

• 1:40:32Bill Simmons?

  Got him, man. Um, all right, Dabbundo, it's time. You want to do your three favorites, your four favorites or your five favorites?

• 1:40:40Speaker 05

  You want to, uh, set the over under on number of, of futures I have so far.

• 1:40:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh, it's easily, easily 50, right?

• 1:40:49Speaker 05

  Uh, it's under that. It's about 17.

• 1:40:50Speaker 04

  33.

• 1:40:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, 17.

• 1:40:53Speaker 04

  Or you gotta do some work there. Yeah.

• 1:40:55Bill Simmons?

  All right. Yeah. So give us.

• 1:40:56Speaker 04

  Fandel's not that, they're not done putting stuff up.

• 1:40:58Bill Simmons?

  Give us your best five and then Sal and I will critique them as we go. And you can go in descending order from five to one if you want.

• 1:41:05Speaker 05

  Okay. We're going to start with number one, which is my dark horse, a team that I have been a fan of. I'm an honorary, uh, member. I might have to take a trip to Quito, uh, to get excited for this World Cup. Maybe if they, uh, make a deep run, I'll go, I'll go do some tourism with the, the winnings. But, uh, we're going to be on Ecuador. This is going to be an Ecuador group.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:41:23Speaker 05

  Uh, they are a popular underdog pick, but, uh, I like to think I was at least somewhat early to the show because we bet them at the Copa two years ago. Uh, I think this is a top five or six defense in the whole world. They are captained and led by a trio of defenders in Incapie from Arsenal, Pacho from PSG, and then Moises Caicedo, their defensive slash central midfielder, who is probably the best ball winner, just pure ball winner in the world at Chelsea right now. So, we know that they have an elite defensive spine. The big question is can they score enough goals? They're led by a 36-year-old Ener Valencia. They have a young kid, Kendry Paez, who Chelsea bought and then loaned out back to South America. Like, this Ecuadorian team is the textbook definition of the quote-unquote,

• 1:42:08Speaker 05

  "team nobody will want to play in the knockouts." And I think as a result, like, they're in a tough group. They get Germany, they get Ivory Coast, like, it's going to be a tough group for them. But when they get in the knockouts and they're playing a team who's maybe comparable to them or even better than them, they're very capable of making that match a total stalemate nightmare. And you can go back even two years ago. They played Argentina at the Copa America in the quarterfinals, and they went toe-to-toe with them, lost in penalties, but were right there and had chances to win that match. Like, this Ecuadorian side is not afraid of anybody. They're physical, they're ready for the heat. They have enough depth to withstand some of the potential, you know, gruellingness of this tournament. So, here are the three bets that I think are worth placing a little money on. Ecuador to win their group, plus 380.

• 1:42:53Speaker 05

  Ecuador to make the round of 16, plus 150. And if you want to get really crazy, plus 550 to make the quarters. I have them in the quarterfinals in my bracket. I think they can make a run.

• 1:43:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, you also have South for the semis, 12 to 1. Finals, 3 to 1, and to win it all, 100 to 1.

• 1:43:11Speaker 05

  Yeah, they're not winning it all, but...

• 1:43:12Speaker 04

  This is going to be the team that knocks out one of my European teams, right? That I need to advance to the finals so I don't have a heart attack. Yeah.

• 1:43:21Bill Simmons?

  There's been action on the quarters. It's down to plus 460 to Bundo.

• 1:43:25Speaker 05

  Wow, I see. People are, obviously, people are tuning into the starting 11 on YouTube, seeing my video where I'm hyping up Ecuador at every possible turn.

• 1:43:32Bill Simmons?

  There could be some movement. So, 12 to 1 for final four is too rich for your blood?

• 1:43:38Speaker 05

  I mean, if you want to get really crazy, it wouldn't surprise me, right? Morocco did this, and it's not that dissimilar from what Morocco did. Like, we have a very defined way of playing. We're a very good defensive team, and we have two or three guys who can go on a run and create some chances on the break. And that's kind of what this Ecuador team wants to be. They only gave up five goals in 18 qualifying matches, and they're playing Argentina, Brazil, Colombia, Uruguay. Like, they played all the good teams, and they really, you know, shut them down. They came in second behind Argentina. So I think it's a fun team. Again, like, they might have to grind their way through the group stage because they're not going to score a ton of goals, but once they get in that knockout, which I think they will, they're going to be a tough out.

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  So for the group, Ecuador is in the group with Germany. So you could do an exact order, where you do Ecuador 1, Germany 2, and then you could go either way with the other two and do both bets and try to, try to put some major action on that. I like the group bet, Sal.

• 1:44:36Speaker 04

  I know, but how many third-place teams make it, De Bundo?

• 1:44:41Speaker 05

  Eight out of 12.

• 1:44:43Speaker 04

  That's a lot.

• 1:44:44Speaker 05

  A lot. And the thing is, with, with, with, with Curacao being in that group is kind of like the, the cannon fodder. If you just get three points, you're almost certainly advancing, unless your goal difference is truly terrible.

• 1:44:57Bill Simmons?

  Ecuador, Germany, Ivory Coast, that being the top three, would be plus 500.

• 1:45:05Speaker 05

  And I, people like the Ivorians, too. They have Jan Di Amade, who's one of the most exciting.

• 1:45:10Speaker 04

  Ivorians?

• 1:45:10Bill Simmons?

  See, this is why, this is why he's elite. We wouldn't have known to call them the Ivorians. We would have called them the Ivory Coasters.

• 1:45:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:45:21Speaker 05

  Their nickname is Les Elifont, and the city of Philadelphia is getting behind them. They're in Philly. We're very excited to root on the Ivorians, too.

• 1:45:29Bill Simmons?

  One more thing with Ecuador, like, used to hot weather.

• 1:45:32Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  Okay. All right, what's your next one?

• 1:45:35Speaker 05

  Play right on the equator, used to elevation, if they end up in Mexico, which...

• 1:45:38Speaker 04

  It actually means equator, doesn't it?

• 1:45:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:41Speaker 04

  Ecuador, equator. Wow, unbelievable.

• 1:45:44Bill Simmons?

  What's your next one, De Bundo?

• 1:45:46Speaker 05

  Next one, we're going to go with the most reliable thing in my life, which is Switzerland. To do well, make the, make the knockouts of an international tournament and then lose very quickly once they get there. Switzerland... To win Group B over the Canadians minus 120. It was the last I checked at Fanduel.

• 1:46:06Bill Simmons?

  So you're not scared at all Canadians, any home field advantage with that?

• 1:46:11Speaker 05

  Canada, they're the chaos maxers of international soccer. Their manager, Jesse Marsh, who is an American, who has certainly made his feelings known. He's a little bit hurt that he didn't get offered the American job when it came open, once they fired Burrhalter. He is known for the intense press, the chaotic energy. But the problem is Alfonso Davies is their best player by a wide margin. He's the best player in North America and he is not healthy. He's coming back from an injury. He might be back at the end of the group stage, but I don't know that he will and he won't be healthy if he does come back. So that's a problem. Bombito, their starting centre back, just got hurt in their last friendly. One of their other midfielders goes down. So all of a

• 1:46:52Speaker 05

  sudden, it's not a very deep team. It's a lot of like a couple of stars and some okay MLS guys. Now they're really, really shorthanded. And I think Canada, like if they try to press and run Switzerland off the pitch, Switzerland is very, very capable and experienced in their midfield. Like they have so many good passers. I kind of think the Swiss just beat them, even though they're in Canada. Like Canada will still advance.

• 1:47:13Bill Simmons?

  Sal likes this. Sal likes going against Canada is exciting.

• 1:47:16Speaker 04

  Never mind it. Never ever mind it.

• 1:47:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Sal definitely perked up.

• 1:47:19Speaker 04

  I like John Candy, Michael J. Fox. Otherwise, they could go to hell.

• 1:47:23Speaker 05

  And they'll still probably come in second. Again, this group is not tough. Qatar is, for my money, the worst team in the field. But like, you know, I don't see the upside them beating Switzerland. Switzerland's a class above them.

• 1:47:36Bill Simmons?

  All right. Your third pick?

• 1:47:39Speaker 05

  My third pick, we're going to go back to our old friend Ronaldo in Portugal. I think Colombia is another team that I'm loving to back in these international settings. They have their own Luis Suarez. They have Luis Diaz, James Rodriguez, who is kind of like bookending his career. 2014, he was the Golden Boot winner at the World Cup. He put his name on the map. People, casual soccer fans still know James Rodriguez, just because of what he did at that World Cup. His club career never quite worked out to the heights that maybe people thought it would with all of his injuries. But then he comes back and when he puts on the Colombia shirt, 2024, he was the best player at the Copa America. He's so good on set pieces, free kicks. That kind of player, love if the US had one, is the difference maker at these kind of events.

• 1:48:24Speaker 05

  Colombia is plus 200 to win that group. The most exciting game of the group stage, bar none. Portugal against Colombia in Miami to end the group stage. That is going to be an incredible scene. It'll be two thirds Colombians, one thirds Ronaldo heads. It's going to be an amazing matchup, but I think Colombia is very live against Portugal to potentially upset them. And then if Portugal comes in second, all of a sudden the bracket gets very imbalanced. Portugal goes up into the section with France and Germany and everybody is like, oh, okay. What's going to happen here? So.

• 1:48:55Bill Simmons?

  It's a pretty good one. Sal, does it bother you that America isn't better at set pieces? It feels like the one thing we could really control, right?

• 1:49:03Speaker 04

  Why?

• 1:49:03Bill Simmons?

  We could groom a guy to just have the best corner kicks of anyone in the world. This is all like, just a, I always feel like it's very poetic, like. Yeah, I know he has to take it because he's like the guy in the team. I've never really enjoyed his corner kicks or his free kicks. I think he's.

• 1:49:20Speaker 04

  I mean, I, the corner kicks, I mean, don't we just need a giant in the middle? Like that's, I don't want to interrupt, but I have Holland for golden boot. Like that guy's seven and a half feet. You know, he's everyone's favorite Game of Thrones stand in until the, it's what you look like. But that, that's what I would do. That's, I have a 14 to one.

• 1:49:39Bill Simmons?

  Also, I didn't realize we were doing golden boot odds. I don't even know where to find those.

• 1:49:44Speaker 04

  You've seen, you've seen him before, Simmons. By the way, Simmons, he is in the top 100 most influential people in sports, along with you. Congratulations on that.

• 1:49:54Speaker 05

  Congratulations, yeah.

• 1:49:55Speaker 04

  Is there a dinner? Is there a group photo at Ted Sarandos house? What happens?

• 1:49:59Bill Simmons?

  Maybe a group photo at Ted's house, we'll see.

• 1:50:02Speaker 04

  The one that's top 100 least influential people in sports. I don't know if you saw that list, but.

• 1:50:06Speaker 05

  No, he's gaining influence. Rapidly falling, rapidly falling down the rankings once Ecuador loses every game at the World Cup.

• 1:50:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he's, he's ripping off winners for us right now.

• 1:50:14Speaker 04

  Okay, all right.

• 1:50:16Bill Simmons?

  Give us, do speed round.

• 1:50:17Speaker 05

  I will say this though, so the US does have a set piece specialist. The problem is he's bad at everything else.

• 1:50:22Speaker 04

  He's eight years old.

• 1:50:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:24Speaker 05

  Sebastian Berhalter, the son of former manager Greg Berhalter is on the roster. He is incredible. I mean, the manager does like him. Pochettino has spoken highly of him. He said that he's the one guy on the team. He doesn't have to rotate because he just has endless energy and all this stuff. And look, Burrhalter is a very controversial figure. Both Burrhalter's are very controversial figures, but Sebastian's free kicks and corners are amazing. I mean, if you go watch the Gold Cup last summer, he had two assists on free kicks to Chris Richards.

• 1:50:53Bill Simmons?

  So they can actually let him do it in the World Cup?

• 1:50:56Speaker 05

  But you have to play. It's not like you can't just sub him in for the for the free kicks and then take him out again. He's like a very mediocre midfielder otherwise. So we might see him late. Like if they're down late, you know, and they, you know, they're rotating through their guys. He's going to play. He's one of their main midfielders off the bench. But their set pieces will get noticeably better when Burrhalter takes them as opposed to Pulisic, who has been always kind of eh with the free kicks.

• 1:51:20Bill Simmons?

  It always seems like he should be good at it and he's just not. All right. You gave us three. Give us three speed round quick with no extra explanation and Sal and I will decide what we want to hear out of the three, which one we like. Three quick ones.

• 1:51:36Speaker 05

  So we'll go Morocco. Morocco to win their group. So they're about plus 450. They're in the group with Brazil, Scotland and Haiti.

• 1:51:44Bill Simmons?

  You're too much info. What's the next one?

• 1:51:46Speaker 05

  Too much info? Too much info? Okay.

• 1:51:47Bill Simmons?

  Morocco plus 450 to win the group.

• 1:51:50Speaker 05

  Yeah. Jordan Pickford to win Golden Gloves at plus 750.

• 1:51:54Bill Simmons?

  Wow. What? How do you win Golden Gloves? What happens? Best save percentage?

• 1:51:58Speaker 05

  It's the best, the best goalkeeper.

• 1:52:00Bill Simmons?

  So it's just like best goalie in hockey?

• 1:52:03Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:52:04Bill Simmons?

  Like the, what is it? The Vezina?

• 1:52:05Speaker 05

  The Vezina, yeah. Basically, for the tournament. Now, England is a boring watch.

• 1:52:10Bill Simmons?

  No, go to the next one.

• 1:52:13Bill Simmons?

  What's the next one?

• 1:52:15Speaker 05

  Okay, Pedri to win Golden, Golden Ball. Not Golden Boot, Golden Ball. So it's the player of the tournament. 25 to 1.

• 1:52:25Bill Simmons?

  All right, we got to go. So Golden Ball is best player in the tournament. No, Golden Boot is most goals.

• 1:52:32Speaker 05

  Most goals. Yes.

• 1:52:33Bill Simmons?

  Are there any other Goldens? It's just Golden Boot, Golden Ball?

• 1:52:36Speaker 05

  Three Goldens. Three Goldens.

• 1:52:38Bill Simmons?

  There's Golden Girls for the cutaway to the chick who's bouncing. I don't know. I don't know what they do. So you could do a Golden Parlay.

• 1:52:46Speaker 05

  Fan cutaways are always special. Yeah.

• 1:52:48Bill Simmons?

  A Golden Parlay would be nice. Yeah, that'd be good. All right, give us one more and then Sal's going to decide what he wants more info on.

• 1:52:56Speaker 05

  Uh, let's see, let's go for the, I, I don't want to get too crazy with like Scotland and stuff like that. Um, how about Christian Pulisic to lead the US in goals? Plus 320.

• 1:53:05Bill Simmons?

  Now you have my attention.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  He's the, he's the favorite though, right?

• 1:53:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:08Speaker 05

  He's the co-favorite with Balogun. Yeah.

• 1:53:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So who, who screws that up if you bet on Pulisic?

• 1:53:15Speaker 05

  Probably Balogun.

• 1:53:16Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:53:17Speaker 05

  The starting striker. Who, you know, I'm excited to watch. Um, I do think his connection with Pulisic was a little bit off in the, uh, in the friendly against Germany. Like, you know, one of the most encouraging things I think for the United States was that friendly, the first hour against Germany, how much they were able to break through the press and get transition opportunities. And Pulisic and Balogun just didn't quite have the link, but they were close. And like, I think that's maybe one other X factor for the US. If they're able to do a better job linking up, creating chances, this team could be actually really dynamic going forward.

• 1:53:48Bill Simmons?

  All right, Sal, your favorite of those four?

• 1:53:50Speaker 04

  Well, I'm, I'm torn between two. I like Morocco because like Morocco and, and Snuka and Morocco and Pedro Morales were some of my favorite feuds. And, you know, Morocco would take that strap. He would spit on the belt, but he loved it. I like Pickford though, for a Golden Glove at plus 750. It might not even be his doing, right? The bundle, like their defense is so solid, they're going to be in one, nothing battles all the way through. Um, and also just an English guy with the glove. They drink tea, they put the white gloves and they slap each other. It just makes the most sense. Plus 750.

• 1:54:23Speaker 05

  Okay. And the other thing is like, if they somehow do win a penalty shootout, like the England narrative is, oh, they never win the shootouts. What if they did win one or two and all of a sudden Pickford is the hero, right? So that's the guy.

• 1:54:36Speaker 04

  What do you like, Simmons?

• 1:54:37Speaker 05

  Oh, I got one more. Japan, Japan to win group F.

• 1:54:39Speaker 04

  No, stop, stop. Enough already. It's supposed to be a half hour. You're killing.

• 1:54:42Bill Simmons?

  My, my favorite is Browns under four and a half wins. Plus, plus 155 on Fanduel right now. Four and a half, they're, they're winning five games, the Browns?

• 1:54:53Speaker 04

  Of course. Disgusting.

• 1:54:54Bill Simmons?

  Plus four and a half, plus, I'm ready for, where's the plus three and a half?

• 1:54:59Speaker 04

  I love that. Under three and a half? I love it.

• 1:55:01Bill Simmons?

  But they don't have it yet. They only, the lowest they are right now is four and a half, but I'm, I'm three and a half, I'd be ready to activate. All right.

• 1:55:07Speaker 04

  Like, Deshaun Watson's minus 196 to be the starting quarterback. Is that worse than Shador or, or Dylan Gabriel? Like, they're a mess.

• 1:55:16Bill Simmons?

  And we know they don't want to win.

• 1:55:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:55:19Bill Simmons?

  They want to have the number one pick in the draft so they can take a quarterback. Okay.

• 1:55:23Speaker 04

  You know what I love Simmons, real quick, Jared verse, you know, they get traded for Garrett. He comes on, he's on the Browns roster and they're like, oh, well Dylan Gabriel has the number eight, the Jared verse, right? And Dylan Gabriel's like, they're like, oh, did he pay? He's like, I don't know, man. I was expecting to get money for it, but he kind of just took it.

• 1:55:41Bill Simmons?

  I saw that. And didn't he brag like, oh yeah, I'm going to be taking number eight and then just grabbed it?

• 1:55:46Speaker 04

  That's it. This is mine now.

• 1:55:48Speaker 05

  He got number logged.

• 1:55:49Bill Simmons?

  It's tough to be a short quarterback. You might get your jersey taken away.

• 1:55:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:55:53Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Well, this was good. I think this was good prep for us. Do you have a, do you have a favorite NFL bet, Sal? Yet?

• 1:56:02Speaker 04

  Uh, I mean. Really like, you know, Jacoby Brissette showing up to Cards training camp really throws a monkey wrench in NFC West. I'm just excited. Browns under for now. That's the only thing I gave out on the podcast, but we're 93 days away. Simmons, Dwight Freeney, John Randall, your boy, Richard Seymour.

• 1:56:21Bill Simmons?

  A little later this year. The September 9th feels a whiff late for us. It just feels.

• 1:56:27Speaker 04

  Can they move that up? You're one of the top 100 most influential. Can't they move that up a little?

• 1:56:31Bill Simmons?

  I'll talk to some of the other guys in the committee.

• 1:56:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, please.

• 1:56:33Bill Simmons?

  But yeah.

• 1:56:34Speaker 05

  It's on Wednesday this year, right?

• 1:56:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're starting, it's, it's starting later and then it's just football games all the time from, from that point on. We go Wednesday, Thursday, no Friday, then Sunday and then Monday. Right? Just for the, and so there's like fantasy football implications and.

• 1:56:51Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:56:52Speaker 05

  Everybody does their drafts the night before the season. Can't even do it this year.

• 1:56:56Speaker 04

  I know. We got 12 more Sundays to go.

• 1:56:58Speaker 05

  The NFL is hurting procrastinators.

• 1:57:00Bill Simmons?

  What would you put for A.J. Brown over and under touchdowns this season, Dubondo?

• 1:57:04Speaker 04

  Ooh.

• 1:57:06Bill Simmons?

  Would you go double figures?

• 1:57:09Speaker 05

  That would be high, but I, I, I think eight and a half.

• 1:57:14Speaker 04

  Oh, I think that's hard.

• 1:57:15Speaker 05

  Every other game?

• 1:57:17Bill Simmons?

  Sal, I did have an idea for us for this.

• 1:57:19Speaker 04

  They have his yards at 1100, um, A.J. Brown. Go ahead. What are they?

• 1:57:23Bill Simmons?

  I just think we go under on everybody. It's the one year we just do 50 unders. Cause you think like the quarterbacks, five get hurt. Just like the top 50, I just think nobody likes to bet unders for future props.

• 1:57:36Speaker 05

  You're talking about yards?

• 1:57:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. For everything, for, yeah, for quarterback yards, for touchdowns, like over and over again, this hits and we just stare at it.

• 1:57:47Speaker 04

  I did this for years.

• 1:57:48Speaker 05

  You guys have been doing this for 20 years, right?

• 1:57:49Speaker 04

  They, they adjusted a little bit with the vig, like the under number will be like minus 130. But, and you don't like to brag about it because it does rely on guys getting hurt. But if you do it with all 30, let's say 30 running backs are listed. Eight of them are going to be gone by like Halloween.

• 1:58:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, think about it with fantasy. Like we all spend 50 bucks on a running back, right? And how many of us are happy in November? Like two of them stay healthy, 10 of them get hurt or whatever. They have some sort of small injury or, I don't know.

• 1:58:19Speaker 05

  It's roulette.

• 1:58:21Bill Simmons?

  One of these years.

• 1:58:22Speaker 05

  It's like you're just hoping, hoping to dodge the bullets all, all season.

• 1:58:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:26Speaker 05

  But I would say this is year, year 19 of Guess the Lines, right?

• 1:58:30Bill Simmons?

  No, this is going to be our 20th year.

• 1:58:32Speaker 04

  This is 20.

• 1:58:33Bill Simmons?

  So this is it.

• 1:58:33Speaker 04

  Chicken off 20.

• 1:58:34Speaker 05

  For the anniversary, you guys just do, we're going full hater this year. Only hate.

• 1:58:38Bill Simmons?

  Like just a full zag.

• 1:58:40Speaker 04

  Oh, I like that. Yeah. What we learned, we're just bitter and beaten down.

• 1:58:44Bill Simmons?

  That'll be after, after Wimbledon in the U.S. Open, when we finally get broken by that stuff.

• 1:58:49Speaker 04

  Ecuador screws us. Thanks to the bundle.

• 1:58:51Bill Simmons?

  All right.

• 1:58:52Speaker 05

  Sal, did I tell you about Sinner?

• 1:58:54Speaker 04

  I don't know. Tell us.

• 1:58:55Speaker 05

  He should be, he should be, he should be a bigger favorite for Wimbledon than he was for the French.

• 1:59:00Speaker 04

  He's a son of a bitch.

• 1:59:01Speaker 05

  Planting my flag.

• 1:59:03Bill Simmons?

  Trying to get it back. I like it. All right. You can hear these two on the Ringer Gambling Show all the time, basically. And we have a lot of good World Cup stuff coming. And then Sal, we're within three months. We'll be doing our, our annual double over unders pod sometime in the end of August. Um, but yeah, great to see you guys. Thanks, fellas. Good to see you. Good job by you. Good job by you.

• 1:59:27Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsberry and House. Thanks to Dabbundo and Sal as well. Thanks to Gao and Eduardo. I am going to be back Saturday night after game five of Knicks Spurs. In the meantime, don't forget, we put up a new rewatchables. We did Single White Female, Super Fun, Me and Van and Mallory. And the next one's gonna be Hand That Rocks The Cradle, if you want to watch that on Netflix. Check out all our podcasts and I'll see you on Saturday night. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Opt-in required. Must wager in designated offer market. Max wager $25. Restrictions apply. See full terms at

• 2:00:10Bill Simmons?

  sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MYRESSET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Minneh Sharon and Three

• 2:00:55Bill Simmons?

  Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters November 6. Get tickets now.

• 2:01:26Speaker 06

  The Mosquito Bowl is the incredible true story of four college football stars who walked away from NFL careers after Pearl Harbor to enlist in the Marines. From Friday Night Lights director Peter Berg and starring Nicholas Galatine, Bill Skarsgård, Ray Nicholson, and Tom Francis comes a story of brotherhood and sacrifice. Four men who traded the gridiron for the battlefield. The Mosquito Bowl, in theaters October 30.