Tony Hawk

Tony Hawk is a professional skateboarder widely regarded as one of the most influential figures in the sport’s history. Rising to prominence in the 1980s and 1990s, he became known for pioneering tricks like the 900 and for pushing skateboarding into the mainstream through competitions, video games, and media appearances. He became a household name through victorious X Games performances, and his career highlights include being the first to land the 900 in competition, earning over 70 contest victories, and dominating vert skating across two decades. As an ambassador for the sport, he also founded the Tony Hawk Foundation to support youth skateparks, further cementing his influence and legacy in skateboarding culture. ------ Thank you to the sponsors that fuel our podcast and our team: Athletic Nicotine https://www. AthleticNicotine.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ LMNT Electrolytes https://DrinkLMNT.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Squarespace https://Squarespace.com/tetra Use code 'TETRA' ------ Sign up to receive Tetragrammaton Transmissions https://www.tetragrammaton.com/join-newsletter

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Rick Rubin?

  Tetra Grahamerton.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  My older brother was a surfer. He's 13 years older than me and then skating was an extension of surfing in the 70s. So he started doing it and he's my older brother. So I was like, oh, that's cool. And for whatever reason, I didn't take to surfing the way he did. I liked it, but I wasn't that confident in the water with big waves. Once we found skateboarding together, I really enjoyed it, but it was really intimidating. It was like all the kids, most of the kids were older. There was a skate park in San Diego. The bulls seemed like they were gigantic, you know, and it was constant danger. But there was something about it. When I first went to

• 1:08Speaker 01

  the skate park on my own and felt the energy in that space where it was like, it wasn't organized. It wasn't a coach telling us what to do. No one's relying on the rest of the team for their success. People were flying. The music, it was like a punk rock soundtrack. It was all new and it was just, I was like, I want to live here. I want to be in this world. And I got hooked.

• 1:36Rick Rubin?

  Skate parks must have been a really new phenomenon at that time.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  They were. I didn't realize I was at the tail end of it because to me it seemed like, oh, there are skate parks everywhere. There were actually two in San Diego near us, Spring Valley, Oasis. I was not old enough to get a membership of Spring Valley. You had to be 10. I think I was nine. My dad wouldn't lie.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  And then I went to Oasis and spent as much as I could get rides there. Both my parents are working. So it was hard to to get there as much as I wanted to go.

• 2:08Rick Rubin?

  How far was it from where you lived?

• 2:09Speaker 01

  Like 20 minutes, but it was just more like my mom worked at a community college. She was usually there till late at night. My dad was kind of a traveling salesman of musical instruments. He was retired from the Navy.

• 2:23Rick Rubin?

  What kind of instruments?

• 2:25Speaker 01

  Everything guitars, violins, I mean drums. My sister, my older sister was in a band. So he was their roadie for the most part. And then he found a way to to source instruments and just started selling them to music shops.

• 2:43Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 2:43Speaker 01

  All around Southern California and Arizona. So he was usually off doing that. And then I could rely on my brother at least once a week and my mom a couple of times a week to get to the park. So I was there until they closed. And I remember just I was obsessed like I had to I had to be there. And first time I got hurt, I got knocked out my front teeth, got a concussion. And I didn't care.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  You know, like I remember.

• 3:16Rick Rubin?

  How old were you when that happened?

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Maybe 10 or 11.

• 3:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:20Speaker 01

  I remember being in the ambulance. I were like, I remember waking up and I was not where I got hurt.

• 3:26Rick Rubin?

  So you got knocked out?

• 3:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 3:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Speaker 01

  And then I I woke up and I was in the pro shop of the skate park and they put me in ambulance because my parents weren't there yet. And then I remember in sort of this epiphany in the ambulance that was like, oh, man, I gotta learn how to do rock and rolls better.

• 3:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 3:45Speaker 01

  Because that's what took me out.

• 3:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  That was a pretty pivotal moment in my life.

• 3:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, in those days, how many hours would you be at skate park typically?

• 3:55Speaker 01

  My parents moved around a couple of times San Diego and ended up in North County. And it was just pure coincidence that the last skate park, almost in the US, was right there. Delmar Skate Ranch. All of the other ones closed.

• 4:08Rick Rubin?

  During like the Dogtown days, there were not yet skate parks.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  They were starting to crop. I was like, like the Dogtown, the Z-Boys were the ones I was reading about in the magazines when I first started.

• 4:18Rick Rubin?

  But they learned to do what eventually you did in a skate park.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  In backyard pools.

• 4:22Rick Rubin?

  In backyard pools.

• 4:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:23Rick Rubin?

  But then the idea was, well, why don't we build something instead of using a pool? But it felt like that came after them.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  It did, for sure.

• 4:31Rick Rubin?

  How long was the window between them and you?

• 4:34Speaker 01

  Maybe three years?

• 4:36Rick Rubin?

  Not so long.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Not so long, no. Two, three years. I mean, I, I went to Marina Del Rey when I was, actually, I went to Marina Del Rey.

• 4:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  You'll like this story. And, because they had these, you were on a skate park team, so I was Team Delmar Skate Ranch. Originally Oasis, then Delmar Skate Ranch. So then we would go to these different.

• 4:54Rick Rubin?

  Every park would have a team?

• 4:56Speaker 01

  They would have a team. I mean, that was short-lived. It was like one season or two seasons of that. But we would have to go practice at these other parks, and so I got my brother to drive me to Marina Del Rey, which is, you know, San Diego to LA. And I'm trying to skate this bowl. This bowl's so, it's, it's the Dog Bowl. It's, it's literally where, where those guys skate. Yeah, Stacy Pearl to Tony Alva. And I'm this little kid with this giant board, and I'm just trying to like reach the top, and I, and I, they had a shallow end, so I could do these little tricks in the shallow end. And then all of a sudden, this influx of punk rockers started coming into the park, not skating, just taking over the space.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Like, what is going on? And my brother, we're not from LA, so we're just kind of like, this is kind of intimidating, this is weird. And then all of a sudden, they all gathered in this one bowl right by where I was skating, but started spilling into the skate area. And I was like, I guess we're done for today. And this guy got up on a ladder and they're taking photos of it. And that is the cover of Circle Jerks Group Sex.

• 5:59Rick Rubin?

  Wow.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  And then the Circle Jerks started playing.

• 6:02Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm 10.

• 6:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  You know, like, I had no idea that I'm witnessing this revolution at all. I'm just more like, why can't we skate anymore?

• 6:12Rick Rubin?

  So cool.

• 6:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:14Rick Rubin?

  Why do you think that connection between punk and skateboarding exists?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I think it's just, there's a do it yourself aspect, but there's also just this outcast element of like, we don't fit in, we don't belong, but we're gonna do what we want anyway. We're gonna make our own scene. And that attitude, that mindset, is very much aligned. Skateboarding and punk rock and, you know, plenty of, I mean, if you look back, like Henry Rollins skated, even K skated, like all these guys were deeply connected to skateboarding. And then that became sort of the soundtrack to it.

• 6:56Rick Rubin?

  Do you think that you're an unusually gifted athlete? Or are you a diligent workaholic?

• 7:05Speaker 01

  I wouldn't say unusually gifted athlete. I was okay at sports. Baseball and basketball, like I was average player. You know, wasn't making the All-Star team, but I wasn't the last picked.

• 7:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  When I started skating, I was heavily ridiculed for my style, for my lack of strength, for my size, for my look, I mean, it was, I was bullied endlessly in the skate world. But I was possessed, so.

• 7:37Rick Rubin?

  So would you say it was your dedication?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  It was hard work, yeah. I mean, it was, it was, it was just repetition, perseverance and a stubbornness, really. Like, you know, I, people say like, oh, man, like you're so determined. I'm like, I'm just stubborn.

• 7:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah. Would you say there were other skaters for whom it was easier? Not saying they got better than you.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely, yeah.

• 7:59Rick Rubin?

  So it was the work? You were diligent?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  It was the work, yeah. It was, it was the, it was the 10,000 hours.

• 8:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  And not, I didn't want to get hurt, but I wasn't afraid to get hurt. And that's, that can go a long way with what we do.

• 8:13Rick Rubin?

  Absolutely, because fear is probably the thing that would slow down all the progress.

• 8:19Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah.

• 8:21Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever get into surfing?

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 8:24Rick Rubin?

  And tell me about the relationship between surfing and skating, similarities, differences?

• 8:27Speaker 01

  I would say that the link, the evolutionary link from surfing to skating is the dogtown Z-Boys, because they were trying to emulate surfing by riding swimming pool walls. And then, when I got into skateboarding, you either skated pools, or you skated freestyle. Freestyle was flat land, the kickflips were not invented yet, right? So, basically, are you cool, or are you a nerd? Right? Because the freestylers, they're not putting much risk out there. I mean, that was, that was the attitude.

• 9:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  They're doing pirouettes, they're dancing to routines, and I wanted to be cool. Like, I wanted to fly, I wanted to grind. That's what the pool skating was about, so that's why I chose the type of skating that I did. But when you look at nowadays, most of these tricks that you see people wanting to learn, perform, they're freestyle moves. Kickflips, 360 flips, like, that was all invented by Rodney Mullen, who was the best freestyler. But there was something special about him that we recognized, and even the most ardent naysayers of freestyle were like, Rodney is magical. He can do stuff that we don't even understand.

• 9:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Did you ever talk to him about it?

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Oh, sure, yeah.

• 9:48Rick Rubin?

  And for him, was it just a natural thing?

• 9:51Speaker 01

  He was like me, he just couldn't stop.

• 9:54Rick Rubin?

  Dedication.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Dedication, yeah. And, and, I mean, the thing that we identify with, I'd say, identify with in each other, is this obsession with having to learn new stuff. And even he and I, like, we had probably the most successful competition rankings in skateboarding history. He won every single freestyle event except one in his career. I won most of the vert events that I entered. But the day after the competition is when we were released and able to try new stuff.

• 10:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  And that's what we cherish the most.

• 10:29Rick Rubin?

  Would every new move...

• 10:33Rick Rubin?

  Ultimately be an iteration of an old move?

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Sometimes. Nowadays, yes, without question. Sometimes it was just like, what the hell? I mean, like Rodney, the ollie impossible. You know, it's where your board actually wraps all the way over your foot. Doesn't make any sense. It doesn't, you can't relate it to anything else. To us, it seems impossible.

• 10:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Speaker 01

  Right? But once he figured it out, people started doing it.

• 10:58Rick Rubin?

  And was it something he figured out or fell into?

• 11:01Speaker 01

  He would just kind of tinker around with his board. I mean, he grew up near Clearwater, Florida, on a farm. And he had a slab of cement that he would skate by himself. That was his MO. And then he would just kind of tinker around. And even like, he invented the kickflip. He just said, he did an ollie, kicked it away, and the board flipped. And he goes, it's mocking me. If I just go stand above it when I do that. And a half hour later, he created the kickflip. So it was just kind of like that. So I took a lot of inspiration from him because, like, I learned how to flip my board in the air above a pool because I watched him.

• 11:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. The iteration was, he was doing it on the ground, you were doing it in the air.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:44Rick Rubin?

  But if you didn't see it on the ground, you couldn't do it in the air. You needed to know it was possible.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then the same, the same goes for...

• 11:49Rick Rubin?

  But the same for him. He probably didn't think it would be possible to do it in the air.

• 11:52Speaker 01

  Right. But then I would do tricks in the air. And he figured out how to do, how to ollie off the ground, where no one really had learned it the way that he could.

• 12:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 12:02Speaker 01

  And so he started learning some of my tricks, like an air walk. Right? I created an air walk where I take both feet off my board. I kick each opposite directions. And he was like, oh, I can ollie off the ground, grab my board, and kick it quickly. And then he did it right there, like, you know.

• 12:20Rick Rubin?

  Without all of the momentum that you had.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 12:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, that's really interesting.

• 12:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then a lot of the early tricks were taken from surfing, laybacks, birdman, carving, you know, all this stuff. But then at some point, skateboarding became its own thing in terms of, oh, we're doing stuff in the air. We're flipping the board, we're spinning 540s. And then the power balance shifted. Where it was like, surfers were trying to, were trying to emulate skateboarding after that.

• 12:53Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Which is what happens now. I mean, when you look at surfing, it's... Big arrows, 540s, stale fish, varials, kickflips, like that all came from skateboarding.

• 13:03Rick Rubin?

  How is the difference between being on wheels versus being on a board on water?

• 13:09Speaker 01

  Oh, it's way different. I mean, just the the way that you maneuver the board, the way you generate speed. It's, you know, some people can cross over pretty well. I'm not one of them.

• 13:19Rick Rubin?

  Would you say wheels give you more control?

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Sure. Because also you could take your foot and push from momentum.

• 13:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 13:28Speaker 01

  On a wave, you have to rely on where is the the speed pocket of the wave?

• 13:33Rick Rubin?

  And every wave is different.

• 13:35Speaker 01

  Every wave is different.

• 13:36Rick Rubin?

  Once you're riding a pool or in a park, it's the same every time.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  It is, yeah.

• 13:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. How different is it going from park to park?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Oh, way different. It shifted a little bit with the Olympics because they had to, parks had to have, it's nuanced, but kind of an overall vibe and different types of obstacles if they're going to be considered for an Olympic qualifier. That's my best explanation.

• 14:03Rick Rubin?

  How many years has skateboarding been in the Olympics?

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Uh, first one was Tokyo, so that was 2021, should have been 2020. And then.

• 14:12Rick Rubin?

  Recently?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and then Paris, this last time.

• 14:16Rick Rubin?

  So two times?

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Two times, yeah.

• 14:18Rick Rubin?

  Wow. Did you watch?

• 14:20Speaker 01

  I watched, yeah.

• 14:21Rick Rubin?

  And what were your thoughts?

• 14:22Speaker 01

  It's amazing. It's crazy.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  I think that halfpipe should be disciplined, but that's a whole other conversation.

• 14:34Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the skateboarding world that you entered at the time. It was the end of the skate parks.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Kind of end of the.

• 14:39Rick Rubin?

  The first era of skate parks.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:41Rick Rubin?

  Because they came back.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  They did. I don't know if you want to say first or second, but it was sort of the end of the second boom of skateboarding.

• 14:48Rick Rubin?

  Tell me each one. Tell me the history.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  So the first one was sort of late 60s, early 70s. And they were toys. They had clay or steel wheels. And people were just using them to go down the hills and transportation. Then that sort of fad went away. I mean, it was almost like the frisbee of the day.

• 15:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  And then in the 70s. It sort of came back, especially with the Dogtown Z-Boys.

• 15:19Rick Rubin?

  Urethane wheels.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Urethane wheels changed the game, for sure. I think it was like seventy-four, seventy-five, maybe. I may not have that right, it was before my time.

• 15:28Rick Rubin?

  And trucks?

• 15:30Speaker 01

  The trucks were originally roller skate trucks.

• 15:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 15:34Speaker 01

  And then they, they started to make them specifically for skateboarding. And then the boards started getting wider, but I would say through the seventies, that was the revolution of equipment. And then the Dogtown Z-Boys era, people started realizing you could do a lot more than just go down a hill. And then skate parks started cropping up. So that was sort of the second boom, probably bigger than the first one.

• 15:59Rick Rubin?

  And was the goal of the skate park originally to get the feeling of riding in a swimming pool?

• 16:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, well, the goal ultimately was profit. Skate parks saw, you know, people will pay to be here all day, or for an hour, or whatever. I mean, they would actually sell one-hour sessions.

• 16:19Rick Rubin?

  But it was different than skateboarding down the street?

• 16:23Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah, and but it would, it had, it had a little bit of everything. Usually skate parks had a little bit of everything, so it had sort of reservoir, we call it like a bank slalom. It was just sort of a downhill bank, a little like a ditch. They had small pools, they had bigger pools, they had square pools, they had capsules-shaped pools.

• 16:41Rick Rubin?

  What would you do in a square pool?

• 16:42Speaker 01

  Well, square, you can actually, the corners are rounded just enough, so you can kind of.

• 16:47Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Whip through the corner, they had full pipes. You know, just, they were just like ones they would find out in sewage lines, stuff like that, but big ones.

• 16:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  I mean, back then, when I was on Park Team, we used to, they used to have a, what they called a pipe pasting event. And so you would put, you'd put a piece of tape around your fingers. And then you'd skate the full pipe and get as high as you can, and then get your hand up and, and then put the sticker up. And if you made it, they would run a line across to see how, how far oververt you got. And then that was the winner.

• 17:22Rick Rubin?

  Was it getting more popular when they went away, or it got less popular?

• 17:27Speaker 01

  It was starting to get less popular, but liability insurance became impossible.

• 17:31Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  And I think that was the perfect storm.

• 17:34Rick Rubin?

  And was there a case or something that happened, someone got hurt somewhere and that changed it?

• 17:38Speaker 01

  I think there was enough, no, I think it was just more that, I don't, I can't say there was a particular case, but I think it was just more that insurance companies just kept gouging skate parks until the point where they couldn't, you know.

• 17:51Rick Rubin?

  Couldn't survive.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  They didn't have the clientele to justify it.

• 17:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  I got lucky because the park I told you about, Delmar Skate Ranch, it was part of an entertainment center, so it was like mini golf, a driving range. They even had like RC slot cars.

• 18:10Rick Rubin?

  Cool.

• 18:11Speaker 01

  And all of that helped to keep the place open, even though the skate park was a big part of that and it wasn't doing as much business, they didn't really care because the rest of it was working. And then they lost their insurance and that was it.

• 18:25Rick Rubin?

  So then what did you do when that happened?

• 18:27Speaker 01

  That was kind of around the time that people started building backyard ramps.

• 18:31Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  So I had a couple of places to skate by then.

• 18:37Rick Rubin?

  How old were you before you had your own ramp?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  When I first got my ramp, I was 19.

• 18:42Rick Rubin?

  And were you already professional at that time?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that was the other thing. All of a sudden, we were kind of, you know, skating came back around in the mid to late 80s and all of a sudden, I'm on the Bones Brigade, the Bones Brigade is just on tour, so we were on tour endlessly.

• 19:01Rick Rubin?

  Globally?

• 19:01Speaker 01

  Globally, yeah, Europe, Australia, Japan.

• 19:04Rick Rubin?

  And would it always be for competition, or would it also be for demonstration?

• 19:08Speaker 01

  Mostly demonstrations.

• 19:09Rick Rubin?

  It'd be like a show?

• 19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, you know, in the sense that we go to a parking lot of a skate shop and they just put a bunch of junky ramps out and it's like, go skate this. Or skate parks, because there were, by then, there were wooden skate parks, indoor skate parks. And they were, they were busy enough to justify getting insurance. So that was. That was cool because we got to skate all kinds of different terrain. We didn't have that many options at home anyway.

• 19:39Rick Rubin?

  And how many people would be on the tour?

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Uh, usually they would send out four to five skaters in a van. And with sort of a supervisor, but the supervisor was also a pro skater. And usually they were, they were just along for the party anyway. So, you know, it was very lawless.

• 19:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  I mean, it was, it was very much like, I always think of like Beastie Boys or, um.

• 20:04Rick Rubin?

  Like punk rock show.

• 20:05Speaker 01

  Punk, yeah, but, but, you know, a bunch of kids traveling like no one's setting guidelines or rules.

• 20:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  Except for be at the demo at this time. That, that was our rules.

• 20:15Rick Rubin?

  The people in the shop also were probably kids.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were, it was.

• 20:19Rick Rubin?

  The whole thing was a.

• 20:20Speaker 01

  It was just chaos.

• 20:21Rick Rubin?

  A youth movement.

• 20:22Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 20:22Rick Rubin?

  Counterculture movement.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. But I was always at least reliable. I never partied so hard that it affected my skating because that, that was always paramount to everything else. That was my priority. I had to skate good. I had to prove myself at every turn. And anything else was a distraction from that.

• 20:43Rick Rubin?

  What would be the places that you'd stay when you go on tour?

• 20:47Speaker 01

  Holiday Inn, Ramada, definitely sharing rooms. But we didn't care.

• 20:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was fun, yeah.

• 20:54Rick Rubin?

  And the word would get out just through the skateboard stores? Just through the shops?

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, Palo Peralta, who was the company behind Bones Brigade. They, their tour plans were pretty elaborate.

• 21:09Rick Rubin?

  How many years had they been doing tours before you?

• 21:12Speaker 01

  Oh, we were one of the first.

• 21:14Rick Rubin?

  Really?

• 21:14Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh, I think they did a few one offs, but like, I think the first tour I went on, we actually had a van, you know, like a van that you would travel with a band in.

• 21:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 21:27Speaker 01

  And then we put, we put ramps in the back of the van.

• 21:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  And then we show up to a skate shop and then we just pull all the ramps out and put it in the parking lot. And it was sort of like our little Lego set that we could put however we want.

• 21:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And then the crowds outgrew that scene very quickly. So then the next year, they bought a fully retractable mini ramp that lives on a trailer.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  And hired, you know, seasoned drivers to be in charge of the ramp. So we would be in a van that's just the skaters. Show up and the ramp is already assembled and ready to go and the crowd is there.

• 22:07Rick Rubin?

  Same as van, first time you go, the equipment's in the back.

• 22:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:10Rick Rubin?

  You set it up yourself.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:12Rick Rubin?

  You put it away and then maybe if things go good, the next time there's another van with the roadies that have the equipment.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:18Rick Rubin?

  And then you're in the other car in the vehicle to travel.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And at that time and then, and then years after that, we thought that was as big as it's ever gonna get.

• 22:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  I mean, we were riding high like that.

• 22:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of the, let's say in the initial crew were four or five. How many of the four or five continued being the same four or five year after year?

• 22:37Speaker 01

  I would say that lasted for at least five to six years.

• 22:42Rick Rubin?

  And so you and the four or five other guys.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  So what they would do is they kind of had what I would say were their A-listers.

• 22:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Of, of the Bones Brigade.

• 22:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And those were Steve Cavalero, Mike McGill, Tommy Guerrero, Rodney Mullen, me, Lance Mountain. So usually they would put one or two of us in that crew and then the, the rest were amateur skaters. They were all excellent skaters.

• 23:10Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And could.

• 23:11Rick Rubin?

  Just not as known yet.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Just not as known.

• 23:12Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  And so inevitably you'd show up and it'd be like, where's Rodney? Where's Lance? It's like, ah, they're not here, but we're here. And then those guys would tell me every time they show up, where's Tony? So.

• 23:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. How many teams were there in the country?

• 23:26Speaker 01

  There weren't many. I mean, it was really like it was Pal Peralta, Vision, Santa Cruz. And those were like the big three.

• 23:35Rick Rubin?

  What happened next?

• 23:36Speaker 01

  As big as it was, skate parks again were closing, even though they weren't permanent structures. And, and usually they were in the more difficult parts of town for the real estate cost, but the skate parks again couldn't afford the insurance. They started closing. Skating was still considered a fad in a way. So it was like, all right, this cycle's over. And then skating went underground for the most part.

• 24:04Rick Rubin?

  Did the tours stop or did you still continue?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  Tours didn't stop, but they, they changed shape.

• 24:12Rick Rubin?

  Did they shrink an audience or not necessarily?

• 24:15Speaker 01

  They shrink an audience, absolutely, yeah. Cause because. By 1992, I started my own company. I had left Powell because I saw the signs. And I thought, I guess, I'm 24, I guess my career is over because I'm old and I skate ramps.

• 24:30Rick Rubin?

  What was the first peak that you experienced? And then what was the first bottom that you experienced after that peak?

• 24:36Speaker 01

  I'd say the first peak I experienced was 88, 89.

• 24:39Rick Rubin?

  And your age then?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  20.

• 24:42Rick Rubin?

  20.

• 24:43Speaker 01

  And then 92 is when all of a sudden, everything was dropping. My income was shrinking by half every month because it was all royalty-based.

• 24:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  You know, even like-

• 24:54Rick Rubin?

  And royalties on skateboards, t-shirts.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  T-shirts, but all the accessories too, trucks.

• 25:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:01Speaker 01

  You know, shoes.

• 25:01Rick Rubin?

  So the whole industry was shrinking?

• 25:03Speaker 01

  The whole, yeah, and, and I was feeling it, and I, you know, I, I had a child on the way and two mortgages, and I was like, what, the whole bottom just dropped out, what's happening? And so I started a company hoping that I could sort of create what Stacy Pearl to created with our team.

• 25:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 01

  It was like, I'm gonna find the talent, and if skateboarding comes back around, we're gonna be on top of it.

• 25:27Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  That was the goal.

• 25:28Rick Rubin?

  You were out in the world of skateboarding at that time.

• 25:33Rick Rubin?

  Were the people who were interested still interested, or was the interest in all of it waning?

• 25:40Speaker 01

  There were no more casual skaters. They were in it for the the hype of it, they were in it because it was cool, even though I don't ever, I never think of it as being cool, because like, all those kids in the 80s, when they were in high school, they were getting hassled.

• 25:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  If they were skating, right? But they coveted it, they loved it. It was more like, it's just not as accessible. And so, the people who truly love it are gonna keep doing it at all costs. But, there's very little support for that.

• 26:12Rick Rubin?

  So there was a hardcore contingent that was-

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Hardcore contingent, and if you look, like if you look back, especially if you look back in early 90s, mid 90s, that's the revolution of street skating. And that's when things were no longer, oh, this is Southern California vibe, this is surf culture, no, this is, we're in the streets, this is like, New York City, you know, Wu-Tang is the soundtrack.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Philly, Texas, and it was all like, everyone had their little pockets of scenes, but it was all street skating. And it was all mostly illegal. And so if you wanted to be a skater in those days, you had to endure cops, you know, ridicule.

• 26:56Rick Rubin?

  Kind of like the graffiti, like it's not so different than that, that culture. And so many of the hip hop artists from the nineties were skateboarders.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:08Rick Rubin?

  Again, like a continuation of the punk rock side, just the inner city version.

• 27:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I remember what we thought was a big event in England. Maybe like ninety-three, ninety-four-ish, and De La Soul played at the event.

• 27:22Rick Rubin?

  So cool.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  And I remember half the skaters were like, are these guys really here? Like, you know, because to us, very hugely popular hip hop band.

• 27:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  We're still the dredge of the earth skaters here. Yeah, it was weird.

• 27:39Rick Rubin?

  So then you started your own company?

• 27:41Speaker 01

  I started my company in ninety-two, got a team together. And that's when I learned the hardships of being on the organizing end of doing tours.

• 27:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  Because then it was like, all right, I gotta book all these places. I'm the one else to collect the money. And make sure that we have a place to stay, get food, you know, we used, we had this old, really beat up Toyota van that we used for deliveries for the skateboards for our company. So that became the tour van. Mostly I was driving. There were five of us and we would go skate shops, skate shops. There were a few skate parks left, so we'd go there too. We'd show up, skate for like an hour, sign autograph stuff for an hour. And then I would have to try to collect three hundred dollars from the shop.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  I would say I got it maybe half the time.

• 28:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  You know, and then.

• 28:39Rick Rubin?

  And just not a nice position to be in, having to do that.

• 28:42Speaker 01

  No, I mean.

• 28:44Rick Rubin?

  You're a skateboarder.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I knew, you know, I, I signed up for it. I started the company and this is the new gig. And so depending on how much we got, that would dictate if we're gonna get one room or two rooms.

• 28:57Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  You know, at Howard Johnson's usually.

• 29:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And then hopefully gas and then Taco Bell.

• 29:06Rick Rubin?

  How long would tours go for?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Usually five to six weeks.

• 29:12Rick Rubin?

  Even when there was less of an audience and less of a business model, were tricks continually evolving? So the art form was always moving forward regardless?

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Regardless, still to this day.

• 29:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  And the sad irony in my case, I mean, not that I, I look back on it in regret, but I was still skating ramps, even though it was like this forgotten discipline, you know, there are hardly any vert ramps. In those years were my most creative years. In terms of learning new tricks and stuff, I had no audience for it, you know, like literally, if you put a half pipe section in a skate video back then, you know, we call half pipes a vert. So people would say, uh, hit the vert button. That means fast forward.

• 30:04Rick Rubin?

  That's amazing.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And to this day, like that, that's still a thing that there's, in fact, there's, I think there's a podcast called the vert button.

• 30:11Rick Rubin?

  That's amazing.

• 30:16Rick Rubin?

  When did gear to protect your knees and elbows start? Like I imagine right when you started that.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  That was so, in my day, that was mandatory. You couldn't go to a park without having all the gear.

• 30:28Rick Rubin?

  I see. And helmets.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, but they rented it.

• 30:30Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  You know, they rented this shitty, super thin plastic.

• 30:35Rick Rubin?

  But it wasn't available, because there was a time when no one even thought about it.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Right, right. I mean, my first concussion, I was wearing a helmet. It was just shitty.

• 30:42Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  It was a joke.

• 30:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  In fact, the, the, the edge of the helmet sliced my eyebrow. So I had stitches too, like, you know what I mean? It just squished into my head. But I would say, once the skate parks were closing.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Then all bets were off or for pads. I mean, that's in the this day, especially when you watch people skate. You probably hardly see anyone wearing pads, right?

• 31:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  In the wild on handrails and stuff like that because once it wasn't mandatory, who cares?

• 31:13Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever street skated at all?

• 31:15Speaker 01

  A little bit, but but my style was very rooted in what we call transition skating, which is like riding radiuses.

• 31:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  So I'm not ready for like any sort of rough terrain or abrupt things like that, you know? I did, I went as far as I could with my street career until on one of those tours, I ended up rolling one ankle in the worst way on a handrail. And then the very next day, we're still on tour. I'm still, you know, I still gotta skate, whatever. The next day I I went down a small set of stairs, like skating the other direction because my ankle was so fucked up. And then I wrecked my other ankle just as bad. And in that moment, I was like, if I want to continue to skate and have fun, I can't do this stuff.

• 32:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  You know, I'm just not, I'm not built for it.

• 32:05Rick Rubin?

  No, it's completely understood. Like, I think of the difference between skating and surfing. If you fall off the weight, there is the potential for drowning. That's a real thing. But you're landing in the water, which just seems like if you're gonna be falling off of something, to land in the water is so much better than to land on concrete steps.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yes, I agree. Um, when people say like, how can you ride these giant ramps, you know, like, and they give me shit like, and you won't go surf when it's a little heavy. I'm like, because when I fall, the ramp doesn't come attack me

• 32:38Rick Rubin?

  Attack you.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  And hold me underwater.

• 32:41Rick Rubin?

  And try to drown you.

• 32:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I, I know where I stand with this ramp.

• 32:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 32:45Speaker 01

  And I'm good if I fall, I'm fine, you know?

• 32:48Rick Rubin?

  It's really interesting, that difference. Because it does seem like falling on something hard seems like the worst option.

• 32:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, one thing you learn by default and almost involuntarily through skating is how to fall.

• 33:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:05Rick Rubin?

  And you learned that early on?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Way early on, yeah.

• 33:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Are there secrets or tricks you can explain?

• 33:12Speaker 01

  Well, if you're skating big ramps.

• 33:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  We do knee slides. That's how we get out of situations. The secret, like the technique to a knee slide is as you're falling, you take one very quick step with your lead foot, whatever that might be, or your dominant foot. And then you go straight to your knee. So you've kind of taken the impact with your one leg, just enough that you can take the rest of the impact with your knee.

• 33:37Rick Rubin?

  So you're not breaking the fall with your knees?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  You're not breaking it. If you do go straight to your knee.

• 33:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  You'll jar your back.

• 33:43Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 33:45Speaker 01

  And if you.

• 33:45Rick Rubin?

  So you use the bent foot as like a run?

• 33:49Speaker 01

  One, one quick step, drops the knee, yeah.

• 33:51Rick Rubin?

  To get to the knee?

• 33:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:52Rick Rubin?

  And I guess you get good at that?

• 33:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you get good at spatial awareness, like a gymnast, where it's like you snap and you're like, ah, something's wrong. I gotta bail out. Even though I can't see where I am, I just know this is not right.

• 34:06Rick Rubin?

  How much of what you're doing is always intentional versus, hmm, I'm surprised my feet decided to do that?

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Well, in the context of trying to learn new tricks, I would say it's like, in my experience, in my approach, it's like two thirds intentional, one third happy accident. And when I say happy accident, it's like, I screw up an attempt, but I see something else.

• 34:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, you get a glimpse of how it could work.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:36Rick Rubin?

  But you wouldn't have known that had you not.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Right. Or I have something in mind. I want to get this done. I want to check it off the list.

• 34:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  It just doesn't work.

• 34:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And then I find this sort of side door approach to it, almost by accident. It's like, why did I torture myself trying it this one way and not just go this way with it? But, you know, I was always happy to make those discoveries.

• 34:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is skateboarding as fun for you now as it was when you were young?

• 35:03Speaker 01

  It is, yeah. I broke my leg about three years ago.

• 35:08Rick Rubin?

  Skating?

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Skating, yeah. And doing a McTwist, like some trick I took for granted that I've done thousands of times and just kind of didn't have the right amount of speed and was cavalier and fucked around and found out like, you know, just that it doesn't work the way it used to. I can't just recover. Got my leg tangled and, and broke my femur like. As I was still sliding across the flat bottom, it felt like my leg had left my body. You know what I mean? Like, it was so obvious. It's like, okay, that is disconnected. I broke my leg, for sure. And getting back from that, I had a false start. I got, I skated too soon. The bone never actually reconnected back to itself.

• 35:51Speaker 01

  So it was offset for the first eight months of my recovery. And I was always in pain. And at some point, I was like, this can't be right. I can't have this kind of limp and be struggling this much. And then they took a x-ray and they said, yeah, you have what we call a non-union fracture.

• 36:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. So the bone came back together, but in the wrong place?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  It didn't even come back together. It never did. At some point, it was on top of each other. I skated too soon. I shifted it out of place. And then it was just hanging above the other one.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it sucked.

• 36:25Rick Rubin?

  So then you had surgery?

• 36:26Speaker 01

  So eight months later, I had it realigned with a very stern warning from the doctor that did it. It's like, you cannot get back out there. Don't get back out there the way you did. Take it slow. In fact, I want you to be on crutches for the first two months, even though you won't need them.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  And I'm only telling you this because now, having gotten through that, getting to a level of skating than I'm at now, that is back to sort of a professional level. I don't take any of it for granted, and so it kind of makes it way more fun.

• 36:56Rick Rubin?

  Understood.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  I mean, I just skated with my kids two hours ago at Kapaa Skate Park. And just jumping over the hips there, like, that's a gift. At my age, and then I get to do it with my kids. You know, I'm not moving the needle on getting gnarly, but it's so fun. And also, the idea that skateboarding has come this far, it's accessible to everyone.

• 37:19Rick Rubin?

  Is it more popular now than it's ever been?

• 37:22Speaker 01

  That's hard to answer. I would say yes on an international scale. But also.

• 37:27Rick Rubin?

  But now it's in the culture. It's not like a fad.

• 37:30Speaker 01

  It's just something that people do, like.

• 37:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  You know, like this dude showed up today. He was driving by, saw a skate, and he's like, oh, man. I haven't skated in a while. If I get my board, can I skate with you guys? Yeah, go for it. So he drove home, came back. And he was skating, and it was just like, that's how it is now. Like, that guy. Skating is in his. DNA, even though he doesn't even do it that much anymore. And I feel like this is part, this is something people choose to do.

• 37:56Rick Rubin?

  Riding a bike.

• 37:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they just.

• 37:57Rick Rubin?

  We don't always ride a bike, but once you're not able to ride a bike, it's in your arsenal.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, going back to. How available skateboarding is. I mean, if you go to a skate park right now, almost anywhere. You'll see people of all ages, all genders, all races, all backgrounds. Using the park. And all skill levels, like from absolute beginners to actual pros that are. Competing internationally. And they're all enjoying the space the same, and they're all encouraging each other. And I just don't, there's no other sport like that.

• 38:29Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the changes in equipment. What each of the changes allows that wasn't possible before?

• 38:37Speaker 01

  I think. In the eighties, it just allowed more stability. Because the shapes got bigger.

• 38:43Rick Rubin?

  Wider?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Wider, yeah. Wider and a little bit longer.

• 38:47Rick Rubin?

  I remember there was a period at some point where they got really long.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's more longboard, like cruise boards. That's sort of a different.

• 38:57Rick Rubin?

  Okay.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  Approach. But that exists.

• 39:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, and at the time that they came out, it was new. We hadn't seen.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  It was new, sure, and it's just less trick oriented.

• 39:06Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  So.

• 39:07Rick Rubin?

  And then boards, I remember when I was a kid, they were hard. And then there was a time when they got soft, they would flex in the middle.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  Those boards, like. Those were more like the surf style boards in the seventies or slalom boards. Slalom boards were very springy.

• 39:21Rick Rubin?

  And what's the benefit or negative?

• 39:24Speaker 01

  Well, slalom, the negative is that it's not rigid enough to be able to do tricks. Right? But the benefit is if it's, if it's kind of bouncing in the middle, is you can do slalom and do real fast turns.

• 39:34Rick Rubin?

  Back to back. Would you be like shock absorber also, sort of?

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Not really. No, because you wouldn't be, on those types of boards, you would not be leaving the ground.

• 39:44Rick Rubin?

  Okay.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  I would say around...

• 39:46Rick Rubin?

  And slalom is like, you see the videos of the guys going really fast down the boards.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Really fast, just back and forth.

• 39:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Which I had to do as a park team member, and I was terrible at it, and there's like video of me hitting all the cones. It was just not my thing. In the early 80s, or sort of early 80s, mid 80s, seven ply maple became the norm for construction for skateboards. And then it was just about, what is the concave, and what is the shape, and that is unique to each company.

• 40:17Rick Rubin?

  Why is concave a good thing?

• 40:19Speaker 01

  It just keeps your foot in place.

• 40:20Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Especially when you're up on big walls and stuff. Like, if the board's flat, there's a good chance your foot's gonna slip off once you get...

• 40:27Rick Rubin?

  Does the shape of the nose or the tail make a difference?

• 40:30Speaker 01

  Makes a difference, mostly because we learned that as skating evolves, people start skating backwards. So now you need a nose that's just as long as the tail. I would say that was the biggest shift of equipment from the 80s to the 90s. Because then the 90s, all the boards looked like popsicles.

• 40:49Rick Rubin?

  So now they're reversible, essentially?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  They're reversible, yeah. Yeah. And you're using, you're using the nose as much as the tail.

• 40:56Rick Rubin?

  Still, does one side have more of a kick to it, or not necessarily?

• 40:59Speaker 01

  They're pretty much the same.

• 41:01Rick Rubin?

  Pretty much same, front and back?

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. If I were to show you my board, you would not know which is the front or the back.

• 41:09Rick Rubin?

  Is there a front and a back?

• 41:10Speaker 01

  There is, yeah. I just know, because it's very subtle, but I've been riding the same shape for like 20 years, so I know.

• 41:16Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of skateboarding as competitive?

• 41:19Speaker 01

  I think there is a sector of it that is competitive, sure. When I was growing up, the only way that you were going to get any recognition, sponsorship, support, was through competition.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  There was no YouTube. The magazines didn't care what you were doing unless you were competing.

• 41:37Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about a competition. I've never seen a skate competition.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Well, basically, my era was pool competition. So there would usually be a main pool at every skate park. That's the competition pool. And Dolmar was the keyhole. And then you would go. There would be whatever, how many people in town, 100 skaters. You'd have prelims and they would cut it down to maybe 16 people. Then you'd have semifinals and then they would cut it to eight. And then eight people would generally get three to four runs, 45 seconds each. If you bail, you can get back up, start again. But if you fall, you're not going to win. You get marked way down and you gotta do something like, you know,

• 42:22Speaker 01

  just pull some brand new move out of your ass if you fall and to even be considered back in the lineup. It was supposed to be about your style, your airtime, trick selection. And when it came down to it, in our day, it was just kind of like, who's the coolest? And who was the coolest? Christian was so it. Right? And so to combat that, I had to come up with the craziest shit trick wise. Cause they hated my style. They didn't, you know, I was bony cock. Like I was the nerdy kid that was just trying to maneuver my board and looked awkward doing it.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  So I had to do like McTwist, but do a variation of McTwist. Like throw my board another 180, grab it a different way. And that was the only way that I was going to get seen.

• 43:14Rick Rubin?

  So do you say what Christian was doing was easier for him to do than what you were doing?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  It wasn't that. It was, it was just more that he looked so smooth.

• 43:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  He was amazing. You know, he could go twice as high as any of us and do some of the hardest tricks too. I'm like, he, it's not lost on me. Like Christian, he had the moves. Just for instance, his lean air would would count for probably one of my harder tricks.

• 43:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  I can do lean airs, but they don't look like him.

• 43:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  You know?

• 43:45Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah. So you had to do something over and above.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  And and I have to hide it from the judges. Because if they saw me do it in practice.

• 43:54Rick Rubin?

  Then they wouldn't be impressed.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  And if I didn't do it, they're like, what about that trick we saw? And I would get marked down.

• 44:00Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 44:00Speaker 01

  So they were judging me against what they thought I was capable of.

• 44:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 44:04Speaker 01

  So it was tricky, but I mean, whatever what doesn't kill us makes us stronger. Like, all that just fueled my fire to keep getting better and better and better.

• 44:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Would you ever get there a day earlier to practice something in the place where it was gonna happen?

• 44:19Speaker 01

  I would practice it not in the place it was gonna happen, because everyone shows up a day or two early.

• 44:23Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  And that's when you're under the microscope.

• 44:26Rick Rubin?

  But how different is it from place to place?

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Well, at some point, it evolved from pools to ramps. So the ramps were a little more reliable in terms of being similar to each other. You know, they were all wooden and they were generally.

• 44:41Rick Rubin?

  Better to fall on wood.

• 44:42Speaker 01

  Ten to eleven.

• 44:43Rick Rubin?

  Seems like.

• 44:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I prefer falling on wood than concrete, for sure.

• 44:48Rick Rubin?

  It seems like it.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's funny you say that, because they're having an event at this sort of legendary Concrete Bowl. They're having in January, and it's gonna be the last one there. And they're having a Legends Division, and everyone's like, you gotta go. And I was like, I do not want to fall in concrete.

• 45:02Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  It's not a matter of if I'm gonna fall, it's a matter of when I'm gonna fall.

• 45:10Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about your shyness when you were young. How would you experience it?

• 45:16Speaker 01

  I just didn't feel like I belonged. So I just would be very.

• 45:21Rick Rubin?

  Just quiet and reserved?

• 45:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, just just introverted. And then when I started skating good, that was my voice. And so I used that as much as I could and then and then people thought I was arrogant because I wasn't talking to anyone. And I'm just

• 45:36Rick Rubin?

  Just shy.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Doing all this crazy tricks and I was like, I don't know how to talk to people. I don't know, you know? And I think I broke out of it. Eventually, because Stacy Pralto said, look, you know, there's all these kids here. They literally bought a skateboard with your name on it. They're staring at you like, go talk to them. Like, I'm not even comfortable in my own skin. How am I going to talk to these guys?

• 45:57Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  And eventually I just kind of learned to move through that discomfort and be available and be interactive.

• 46:06Rick Rubin?

  Would you think of Stacy as a mentor for you?

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

• 46:11Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about sponsorships. How do they work for skateboarders?

• 46:15Speaker 01

  Usually it's a contract, like an annual contract. In the case of there's a strange disconnect with skateboard companies, actual like who make, manufacture skateboards. Because they are not the biggest in the industry, like in terms of sales. So hard goods are the hardest to maintain a legitimate business with. You are officially a pro skateboarder if you have a skateboard with your name on it. But the irony is that that's not going to be what makes you money. It's it's if you have a shoe deal, energy drink deal, car sponsorship, or your competition earnings.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  But the skateboard company is is the very least of your income. But you're identified through that. It's very strange.

• 47:04Rick Rubin?

  You can't get the sponsorships without being?

• 47:07Speaker 01

  You can. I mean, there are there are people that do it for sure. They're more focused on competition.

• 47:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  But the ones that are they're like vying for skater of the year, for thrasher, they're out in the streets, they're getting the craziest footage. They definitely have a skateboard sponsor.

• 47:22Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the culture of skateboard shops.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  Well, that was the hub. I mean, that was where you would go to find your crew, to talk shop, to watch videos.

• 47:34Rick Rubin?

  Would they typically be places that only sold skateboards? Or would they sell other things?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  It depends on the era. Generally, it would only nowadays, well, I would say through the 80s and 90s, only sold skateboards, for sure. But in the early days, yeah, it could be just sporting goods, and they had a little skate section in the back. And also, they're the ones that support the local scene. You can't dismiss them. Like, even if their online sales have affected their business and whatnot, or they're struggling, they usually are the ones that people look to, to put on local events, to get teams to do demos.

• 48:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  When I talk to people about those 80s and that era and doing demos, the first thing they say is, "Oh, yeah, I saw you guys at this shop." This shop is what they remember.

• 48:17Rick Rubin?

  Is there a crossover between skateboarding and like X Games and...

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I think that there's a synergy in that we use the same terrain.

• 48:25Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  For instance, in the early 90s, I wasn't getting a lot of jobs as a vertical half-pipe skater, but I would get invited to be a special guest at the rollerblade demos and the BMX shows at the state fair.

• 48:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  And that paid my rent.

• 48:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  I was the special guest at Matt Hoffman's BMX show for the Michigan State Fair for two summers in a row.

• 48:51Rick Rubin?

  And would it be like BMX scene in some ways replaced the skateboarding scene? Or not really?

• 48:56Speaker 01

  No, not really. I think in the early 90s, inline skates did, for sure.

• 49:01Rick Rubin?

  Inline skates?

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, rollerblades.

• 49:02Rick Rubin?

  But you can't do tricks, not really.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  But they did skate ramps, and they were selling tons of these rollerblades, so people would come see and pay to see those shows. So I did shows like I was, again, special guest at Six Flags Parking Lot, St. Louis for a whole summer.

• 49:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  In a rollerblade live show.

• 49:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 49:26Rick Rubin?

  But you would skate?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  I would just skate, yeah. I, because there were some people that they knew my name from the 80s.

• 49:33Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  So it's like, yeah, I remember that guy. And I could do all the tricks. So, you know what I mean? Like, people that want to bash in line skating, rollerblade, whatever, I was like, dude, that was, I'm so thankful that they were around back then.

• 49:45Rick Rubin?

  When did your connection to video games start and how?

• 49:49Speaker 01

  Around 1997, a guy approached me because he had a crude engine for a skate game that he had coded on his PC. And he said, hey, I, I think we could do a skate game. Do you want to go with me and pitch it to different publishers? And so he and I went to a bunch of different meetings. We went to some software studios. We went to actually Nintendo. And, I mean, I remember one quote was, skateboarding is not even popular. Why would, why would a skateboarding video game be popular?

• 50:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  And I said, well, skateboarding games were popular. We had 720, we had Skate or Die, like. I think now that we're at a different stage of video game and home consoles, we could do something fun. And even if people don't skate, they would like it. It's like, no. And then about a year later, less than a year later, I got a call from Activision. They said, hey, we heard that you might be working on a skateboard game. So I tried, but it didn't work. And they said, well, we are working on a skateboard game. We just did a game called Apocalypse, featuring Bruce Willis, which is the first time there was like a name and likeness in a game. So it didn't do very well, but the engine is perfect for skateboarding. And so we want you to come see what we're doing and.

• 51:08Speaker 01

  I went up to Tactives in the next week and they handed me a controller and I started playing this game that was Bruce Willis on a skateboard with a gun on his back, skating through a wasteland and immediately like I was doing ollies and kickflips and grabs and I was like, oh, this is it.

• 51:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  I just knew instinctively like that this, this is the game that skateboarders will want to buy a console to play.

• 51:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  And to me, that was the biggest success. Like, if it's good enough for skateboarders that they like what they're seeing.

• 51:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  Then that's a win.

• 51:43Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it sounds like in Falling Doesn't Hurt As Bad in the video.

• 51:46Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. It is hard to watch, though. There are some animations of like my knee popping one way that I can't watch it happen. I have to choose a different character.

• 51:56Rick Rubin?

  You talked about breaking your leg and as someone who's suffered so many injuries over the years, tell me in that moment when you realize what's happening, what's the thought process? Is it, oh, no? Or is it, okay, there goes two months?

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's that. Like, how long is this gonna take?

• 52:15Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, it's just how long is it gonna take?

• 52:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:18Rick Rubin?

  And the only reason how long it's gonna take is because how long is it gonna take before I can get back?

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yep. Yeah, that's it.

• 52:25Rick Rubin?

  It's not, well, it'll be painful for two months. That's not part of the thought.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  No, I mean, that's a given.

• 52:30Rick Rubin?

  It's just getting back.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. Getting back, yeah. Or, you know, did I damage this so, so completely that it's over?

• 52:38Rick Rubin?

  That I can't get back?

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:39Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Is it? I don't know. But, you know, when I woke up the next morning from the surgery, like, oh, we gotta run back in place. And it's like, okay, here we go.

• 52:46Rick Rubin?

  Let's go, yeah.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  But that was my fault for thinking that way.

• 52:50Rick Rubin?

  What's the longest you've ever gone without skating?

• 52:52Speaker 01

  That was during that time. It was probably

• 52:56Speaker 01

  the second time around. I didn't skate for about three months.

• 53:02Rick Rubin?

  And then when you get back, is it always like, ah, I'm back, yes? Or is this some?

• 53:07Speaker 01

  The first go around of my broken leg, I thought it was gonna be like that. And it was just so painful and so weak. That's when reality hit me. I was like, oh, this, I'm never gonna get back to where I was.

• 53:19Rick Rubin?

  I see. But now?

• 53:22Speaker 01

  But now I'm, I'm, I would say, you know, I'm like eighty, ninety percent of what I was before that. And, and if that's where I live, it's fine.

• 53:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. How popular did the video game get?

• 53:33Speaker 01

  It was the biggest game. It was insane. When the fourth game came out, the first three were still in the top ten of sales.

• 53:42Rick Rubin?

  It's unbelievable.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  It's unbelievable.

• 53:43Rick Rubin?

  How long was it between iterations?

• 53:45Speaker 01

  We came up each year up until, uh,

• 53:48Rick Rubin?

  So in the fourth year, one, two, and three were all in the top ten? That's unbelievable.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. And then the consoles kept getting better. So then we're out.

• 53:58Rick Rubin?

  I also love the fact that Nintendo is like, God, no one's gonna like this.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, it wasn't, it wasn't exactly Nintendo that said that, but, cause, cause you're-

• 54:07Rick Rubin?

  Someone said it.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But yeah, you're right.

• 54:10Rick Rubin?

  It's just that much more interesting when the powers that be, the experts,

• 54:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:17Rick Rubin?

  say it's a bad idea.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:19Rick Rubin?

  And then?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  But also, it, it took everyone by surprise. I mean, even the designers, you know, we were just kinda going rogue, like picking music. I was just picking the soundtrack to my skating years. So we got Dead Kennedys and Primus and,

• 54:33Rick Rubin?

  Great.

• 54:34Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? And, and they were all happy to lend a song, cause it was like, you guys want our music? Okay.

• 54:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Sure. And then all of a sudden, the soundtrack took on a life of itself. And people credit that for getting them into punk rock, or ska, or even hip hop.

• 54:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  I mean, it was, it's crazy. There are four cover bands that only play songs from our video game, one on different continents.

• 54:57Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:59Rick Rubin?

  It's amazing the power of music in that way. I think if it wasn't for The Clash, I don't know that any of us would know any reggae or ska.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  That's what when people say, what like, what's your, like, what starts with The Clash and Gang of Four? And then everything fans out from there.

• 55:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Gang of Four are incredible.

• 55:15Speaker 01

  So great.

• 55:16Rick Rubin?

  I've seen them live two times, once at Irving Plaza and once at Roseland.

• 55:22Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 55:23Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 55:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:24Rick Rubin?

  What a great band.

• 55:25Speaker 01

  I remember, speaking of something like that, like I remember, uh, I saw Nirvana

• 55:32Speaker 01

  right after Nevermind came out in 1990. At a small venue in Houston, because there was a skate event in Houston. And then everyone's like Nirvana's playing tonight. So all the skaters go to the show. And I remember as they started thinking like, this is the coolest place you could possibly be in the world right now.

• 55:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  And it went crazy. And I remember Jack Black told me that same thing about seeing Devo in 1980. Where he's like, this is the greatest place anyone could think of to be right now.

• 56:04Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  In the presence of this band.

• 56:06Rick Rubin?

  I saw Devo in Boston in this theater. I don't know what it was called, but like an old movie theater. And it was one of the greatest things I've ever seen in my life.

• 56:15Speaker 01

  I know that place because

• 56:17Rick Rubin?

  In Boston, you had to like walk through an alley to get to it, even though you get to it and it's

• 56:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. So when I was on tour in Boston on Bonesbury Tour, the Damned were playing there. And I was

• 56:28Rick Rubin?

  Great venue.

• 56:28Speaker 01

  So excited.

• 56:29Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  And I walked in, they're like, it's 21 and over. And I was 20.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  And I was like, come on.

• 56:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:35Speaker 01

  And just like, no, it's just not an all age show.

• 56:37Rick Rubin?

  I never got to see the Damned.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Well, I didn't get to see them until 20 years later, but I still like, I remember exactly that moment was in slow motion to me where I I saw the poster. I knew I was staying there tonight. And I was like, one ticket.

• 56:49Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Like, no, bro.

• 56:53Rick Rubin?

  In the history, we got to the point where it was 92. You start your own company. What's the next uptick in skateboarding?

• 57:01Speaker 01

  Uh, X Games. X Games started in 95. It was still kind of a it was a little scattered. It was a little wonky just with how they presented our sports because it was like, they're extreme. Woo, camera angles like this and Mohawks. And it was like, dude, that's not what it's all about. But they kind of found their groove, I'd say in 97, 98.

• 57:21Rick Rubin?

  What percentage of the X Games is skateboarding? Is it like a third or a fifth?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  I would say it was more like a fifth then.

• 57:30Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  It's about a quarter now. But the, all of the other sports have shifted.

• 57:35Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  Because back then it was like bungee jumping and sky surfing and eco challenge, just random stuff.

• 57:43Rick Rubin?

  Do you think of yourself as a daredevil?

• 57:46Speaker 01

  I think so, yeah.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, I want to go off the high dive and yeah, for sure. Bounce on the big trampolines and all that stuff.

• 57:57Rick Rubin?

  Is it that you like that adrenalized feeling?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but not so much that that I'm throwing caution to the wind.

• 58:07Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  I like the idea that I am capable of this.

• 58:11Rick Rubin?

  Yes.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  And yes, it can be risky and yes, it's a little out of my comfort zone or skill level, but I know I can figure it out.

• 58:19Rick Rubin?

  Has there been anything besides skateboarding that you've dedicated yourself to in that way?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Well, parenting, I suppose, yeah, which I had to learn kind of the hard way through my years of success where it was like, oh, you have to prioritize better and choose time with your kids more so than whatever you think this other thing is important. And that took a while. I mean, definitely took longer than it should have.

• 58:51Rick Rubin?

  What's the current state of skateboarding?

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Pretty solid, very international.

• 58:57Rick Rubin?

  Trick's still evolving.

• 58:59Speaker 01

  Still evolving.

• 58:59Rick Rubin?

  How often do you see something where you feel like, I can't believe you did that?

• 59:02Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, it took me 10 years to make a 900, right? 10 years of my life, getting beat up.

• 59:09Rick Rubin?

  You were the first person to do it?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:11Rick Rubin?

  And you were the only person to do it for a while?

• 59:13Speaker 01

  For a couple of years, yeah. Then a few people learned it. Then Tom Sharge did a 1080. I don't know, maybe 10 years later, nine years later. Then Mitchy Briscoe did a 1260, you know, as the ramps got bigger and they're like gymnasts. It's crazy. I just watched, this is last year at our event, Vert Alert, we have a big vert contest with my ramp, we bring it to Salt Lake City. I watched a 10-year-old do three 900s in a row.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  In a row.

• 59:44Rick Rubin?

  Ten years old.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Ten years old.

• 59:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 59:47Speaker 01

  In his run, like that was part of his run.

• 59:49Rick Rubin?

  Doesn't hurt as much when you fall when you're ten.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  But I mean, I can't believe I get to live in that timeline.

• 59:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  I was the one commentating, like I get to witness this, I get to call it. I get to try to explain the difficulty of that, even though I didn't.

• 1:00:03Rick Rubin?

  So cool.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  So cool.

• 1:00:04Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. And you think it's that humans are evolving?

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  Sure. I think it's just we see what's possible and so we, that's the, that is a goal to start with.

• 1:00:16Rick Rubin?

  It's like the six minute mile. Once it's broken.

• 1:00:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:19Rick Rubin?

  Then a lot of people can do it.

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. When I started skating, no one did five forties.

• 1:00:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. So nine hundred was impossible until it wasn't.

• 1:00:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:28Rick Rubin?

  And now that it's not impossible, other people can do it.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Like now you skate ramps, it starts spinning.

• 1:00:35Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Rick Rubin?

  It's really interesting.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it continues.

• 1:00:40Rick Rubin?

  That's an example, though, again, just in iteration, because there was a seven twenty before there was a nine hundred, right?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. To put it in context, I did the first seven twenty in nineteen eighty-five on a ramp way outside of Stockholm in this little town by a lake with three people watching me.

• 1:00:58Rick Rubin?

  Did you intend to do it?

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:00Rick Rubin?

  Or did it happen?

• 1:01:00Speaker 01

  No, I intended to do it because, because the ramp was a little different design and allowed us to go higher. And so I was doing five forties a lot back then and I thought, well, maybe this is the ramp to go one extra spin.

• 1:01:14Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  I learned it in like half an hour. There were three people watching me.

• 1:01:17Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  No one cared, you know, I mean, it was cool. Yay.

• 1:01:21Rick Rubin?

  So is that often the case where there'll be something in the environment that sparks you to do something that you couldn't do before?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:31Rick Rubin?

  Because you were reacting.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  I was.

• 1:01:33Rick Rubin?

  You didn't decide in advance, I'm gonna do this.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  I didn't go with that intention.

• 1:01:37Rick Rubin?

  No, but you saw the opportunity based on the real world conditions.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  Yep, yep.

• 1:01:42Rick Rubin?

  Is it typically that way?

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I would say it's half and half.

• 1:01:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. It seems like it would be easier if you got that glimpse than just, I have an idea, I'm gonna make it happen. If you get a glimpse, oh, the speed or the height that I'm going now makes it easier to do this thing that I couldn't do before. You see the opportunity is different than a theoretical idea in space that you're gonna push to happen.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  Sure, but it's interesting, like going from that, that was 1985, I didn't make a 900 until 14 years later.

• 1:02:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  To do that extra 180 took that much time and effort.

• 1:02:24Rick Rubin?

  And do you remember when the 900 happened, what was different about, what allowed that to happen?

• 1:02:28Speaker 01

  There were a few things. One, that the ramp was built much better than most ramps at the time because no one had the budget to make great ramps. But ESPN did. And in the past, whenever I tried to make it, I would fall forward and one time I actually broke my rib. Around 1996, I had all the pieces to the puzzle. I'm doing it. Here it goes. And then I fell forward, broke my rib. Had to go pick up my son in kindergarten, like couldn't breathe. No one was paying me to do that.

• 1:02:58Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:59Speaker 01

  So it was all just for the passion of it.

• 1:03:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  And then...

• 1:03:02Rick Rubin?

  How long was it before you tried it again?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  About a year, but I could not get that commitment again. Cause I didn't, you know, for what?

• 1:03:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  I don't wanna go through that again, but and so I actually had a ramp built that was bigger than most ramps. It was in a bullring, it was in Tijuana, it was like, oh, this is gonna be sick. And I was doing all these other tricks and I was like, I'll do 900 this ramp. And then when I finally got to it, I was like, I can't, I'm, I don't wanna get hurt again and be stuck in Mexico.

• 1:03:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  So the key to it was at the 99 X Games during the best trick event, I started trying it.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  Because I had done my best trick in the event prior to that, which was a 720 variation. So I already had that. And it was like, what's next? Well, what's next is a 900, you know, impossible.

• 1:03:50Rick Rubin?

  So you've never done it?

• 1:03:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:52Rick Rubin?

  The one time you tried, you broke your rib?

• 1:03:55Speaker 01

  The one time I really committed to it, yeah.

• 1:03:57Rick Rubin?

  And now you're gonna do it in competition?

• 1:03:59Speaker 01

  No, I just started trying it because it was like, here's the next thing that I would like to do. Here's the next stage of spinning. It was kind of like for this crowd because we never had a crowd like that. It was just kind of like me like, ah, check it out. This is what, you know? And then after about my third attempt, I had a super good spin. I had way more speed than I usually had. And I was like, well, if I'm ever gonna really try again, it might as well be here because I don't mind getting hurt here.

• 1:04:28Speaker 01

  And so then I started fully committing to it. And when I did commit to the first one, I fell forward again, but I didn't get hurt. And there was something that happened there where it was like, you have to shift your body weight mid-spin.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  That's the key. So the next one I tried.

• 1:04:48Rick Rubin?

  And you could have never known that until you did it.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Until I did it.

• 1:04:52Rick Rubin?

  Unsuccessfully.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  Until I did it unsuccessfully and took the hit.

• 1:04:55Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  But took the hit that wasn't so debilitating.

• 1:05:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:00Speaker 01

  That allowed me to get up again.

• 1:05:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:02Speaker 01

  Because when the first time I got hurt and broke my rib, I didn't drive away going, man, I gotta figure out how to shift my weight. I drove away going, fucking trick, I'm never gonna do that trick.

• 1:05:10Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  I hate that trick.

• 1:05:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  In that context, I just thought, okay, shift your weight. So then the next one I did, mid-spin, you know, there's a lot to think about.

• 1:05:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 01

  Because you can't see anything when you're spinning that fast. Shifted my weight to my back foot. And when I came down, I fell backwards. It was kind of a hard slam, but I was like, that's it. Like, I fell forward, I fallen backwards, split the difference. And I made the next one.

• 1:05:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Anything that

• 1:05:42Rick Rubin?

  intellectual, where you're programming yourself to do it?

• 1:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Just making these tiny adjustments every time and banking them.

• 1:05:53Rick Rubin?

  So you must have great sense of your body in space because you're flying and spinning while this is happening.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, after a while you do, yeah.

• 1:06:02Rick Rubin?

  That's amazing.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  What I'd learned in those years and in the years after where, watch what you wish for. Cause then, once I learned it, anytime I'd go do a demo anywhere, it's like 900, come on, let's see. I'm like, oh, yes, it's gonna take everything I have to do that again.

• 1:06:18Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever do it more?

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  I did, yeah. I ended up doing it like 30 times.

• 1:06:22Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Did it get easier or never?

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  It got easier to get to that stage of knowing I can do it.

• 1:06:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:35Speaker 01

  So, for instance, at X Games, I think it was like 11 attempts. After that, it would usually take me less than five or six to get there.

• 1:06:44Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  But it always took a lot. It was never first try.

• 1:06:47Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  But what I learned in those years after is that as soon as you snap, if something's off, don't stop spinning. And I've told kids that who want to learn it. Like, look, if you go and you miss your board or whatever, do not open up. Because you're gonna open up and you're not gonna know where you are. And you're gonna be way further out of the ramps than you usually are and you're gonna get, you're gonna get hurt.

• 1:07:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Like, there's no question. So.

• 1:07:15Rick Rubin?

  So by continuing to spin, what happens?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  You come back around the wall and you can get to your knees.

• 1:07:22Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  It's like you're so far off the wall, but you kinda, your, your spin and your trajectory brings you back to the wall. If you keep spinning.

• 1:07:31Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Do you ever spin where your back is to the wall instead of your knees?

• 1:07:38Speaker 01

  The, the first time I ever tried it, yeah. Cause I didn't know how fast to spin.

• 1:07:42Rick Rubin?

  Right.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  I did that in 1987. That's what prevented me from trying it after that. Cause I literally landed my back like, oh, but if you open up.

• 1:07:49Rick Rubin?

  Anything you can think of that I may have done at some point in my life? Something physical that everyone can do, but that takes some practice to be able to do it.

• 1:08:03Rick Rubin?

  How similar is it to learning to ride a bicycle? What we're talking about?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  It's kind of like, if you've ever tried to do a flip off a diving board. That can seem like the scariest thing in the world. And, once you leave the diving board, if you panic, you're gonna end up on your back. Right?

• 1:08:24Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  It's the same thing. If you go up to a 900, and something goes wrong, you panic, you open up, you're gonna land on your back. One body motion is much more extreme than the other, but it's the same outcome.

• 1:08:35Rick Rubin?

  I see.

• 1:08:37Rick Rubin?

  If you learn something like, keep spinning, can that same idea apply to other tricks? Is that knowledge base deeper than that trick, or is it just that?

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Ah, that one's, that one's kind of on its own in terms of what it takes to get there.

• 1:08:55Rick Rubin?

  What are some of the ones that are more general, like,

• 1:09:00Rick Rubin?

  a technique you use when it's going wrong, that ends up having good effect on a lot of things?

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  That's hard to answer. I would say

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  the things that you do up on the lip, where you're getting your board and you're grinding with your trucks, and you're grinding with the middle of your board.

• 1:09:23Speaker 01

  It's very easy to get lazy on that stuff, and your board will hang up on the top, and you think you're gonna be in, and then, next thing you know, you're on the flat bottom.

• 1:09:32Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:32Speaker 01

  Right? That's what we call that hanging up.

• 1:09:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  There are very subtle feet maneuverings where you can avoid that. And you can use them for almost any lip trick.

• 1:09:43Rick Rubin?

  Oh, good.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  So you learn them from the basic ones,

• 1:09:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  but you get them so dialed that you know if you get in some certain position, and, oh shit, your board's over the coping, you have that backup skillset.

• 1:09:56Rick Rubin?

  Does the board ever hit you, fall on you?

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I mean-

• 1:09:59Rick Rubin?

  But it's not a big deal?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it sucks, but, yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  I definitely have scraped up my knuckles too. I mean, that, all this, my shin,

• 1:10:08Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:08Speaker 01

  that's my skateboard.

• 1:10:09Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Is there some piece of equipment that you can imagine that would allow gains in skating that had never happened?

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  That's how people got to do 1080s and 1260s is that

• 1:10:25Rick Rubin?

  What do they have?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Foam pits and bigger ramps.

• 1:10:28Rick Rubin?

  So it's just you can fall much easier?

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  You can fling your body. You don't have to worry about opening up or spinning if you're flying in a foam pit.

• 1:10:36Rick Rubin?

  I see. Past the foam pit, is there anything that can take it further?

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't. People try to develop harnesses and things like that. And I'm still old school. Like I, you know, I learned in the school of hard knocks.

• 1:10:52Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:53Speaker 01

  I learned on concrete, all this stuff. So I don't really have a gauge where it's like, "Yeah, go try that easy way in."

• 1:10:59Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Who would you say was the most influential skater on you?

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  Eddie Elguera, because he was the most innovative skater at the time when I was coming up. And he got ridiculed because they called him a robot because he was learning tricks. And I was like, "That's me."

• 1:11:18Rick Rubin?

  I want to do that.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  I want to learn tricks.

• 1:11:20Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:21Speaker 01

  I learned his signature trick, frontside rock and roll, when I was like 11. And they moved me up two divisions as an amateur because I could do frontside rock and rolls. I couldn't do anything else. But they're like, "Oh, that kid can do front rocks. Put him in 3A." And I was like, "Okay."

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  I say it a lot. He was in the right place at the wrong time. He was like the most innovative skater at a time when skating was in its lowest point.

• 1:11:48Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. Is there any training you can do outside of skating that makes you a better skater?

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  I would have said no a long time ago, but these days at my age, yeah, for sure. I mean, I work out three times a week doing strength and conditioning and stretching. And it helps my skating just in terms of my endurance, mostly.

• 1:12:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:12Speaker 01

  With my leg, it's unlocked some positions that I can now get back into that I couldn't.

• 1:12:19Rick Rubin?

  When you were younger, do you feel like?

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  When I was younger, it was the antithesis.

• 1:12:23Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Working out, like, that's for jocks.

• 1:12:26Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Jocks hate us.

• 1:12:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  I'm not doing anything that, you know what I mean? I'm not gonna do anything that football or baseball players are doing. You know, I got away with it for a long time, cuz like, I could. Like, I was, I was lanky and I was skinny and I was flexible. And so I could just show up to any ramp, cold turkey, and do a bunch of crazy shit.

• 1:12:46Rick Rubin?

  How much of skateboarding is feel?

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  I'd say it's half feel, it's half visual.

• 1:12:55Rick Rubin?

  Have you ever skated with either blindfolded or eyes closed?

• 1:12:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:12:59Rick Rubin?

  Would it be possible or no?

• 1:13:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, there are, there are blind skaters. But I, I rely on watching my board and seeing the coping. And so much of what I do is watching the edge of the ramp.

• 1:13:12Speaker 01

  And my relation to there. So, I need that visual.

• 1:13:15Rick Rubin?

  At all times?

• 1:13:17Speaker 01

  Mostly, yeah. If I'm spinning or if I'm gonna be blind to it, I know the feeling of where I am in the air too. And what needs to be adjusted to make it work.

• 1:13:27Rick Rubin?

  Does it feel good when you're going fast?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it's cool.

• 1:13:32Rick Rubin?

  Did you ever get into skateboard videos?

• 1:13:34Speaker 01

  Sure, yeah. I mean, I, the first thing I did when I started Birdhouse was make a video.

• 1:13:38Rick Rubin?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:13:39Speaker 01

  We sold it for five bucks. And we asked people to mail five bucks to us in the mail. And then we sent them a VHS. In 1992.

• 1:13:49Rick Rubin?

  And were videos the way that people learned, saw new moves and?

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that time, yeah, for sure.

• 1:13:54Rick Rubin?

  How big was the tape trading world?

• 1:13:57Speaker 01

  It was big. I mean, I, I don't know how many we sold. I think we only made 500.

• 1:14:01Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  But?

• 1:14:03Rick Rubin?

  But they were influential.

• 1:14:04Speaker 01

  To this day, people will say, dude, feasters, I remember that.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, they got passed around, they, they would break.

• 1:14:11Rick Rubin?

  Tell me about the Skate Park Project.

• 1:14:13Speaker 01

  That is my foundation for public skate parks in underserved areas. We've been doing it for 24 years now. And it's definitely my proudest work cuz...

• 1:14:25Speaker 01

  I saw skateboarding on the rise, obviously, in the early 2000s, mid 2000s, with the success of the X Games and our video game. Skating was just everywhere and there were no facilities. And cities were not providing. I just thought, if there's something that I can do to give back to this world, it's provide skate parks. Because my skate park was my salvation as a kid. It's where I spent all my time. Where I met my closest friends. Where I learned my skill, but also just felt a sense of belonging. That's what it was. Like, we were the nerds and the outcasts. Like, we were the misfits. And the skate park was our happy, our safe place. So how do you get it to happen? Through having a voice and a name that city councils would recognize.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  And advocating for the kids in the areas that are trying to get it themselves. So I'm not taking credit for it. I just became a conduit for it. Yeah. And it was like, these kids need a skate park. Listen to them. You're giving them tickets every day because they skate wherever. At the mall, they skate, they're like, they're not going to quit skating. Yeah. And if you provide a skate park, people want to come to your city. How do you know where to go to advocate for a skate park? Oh, I mean, at some point, you learn the process. The city civil process can actually work. Like, if you work the system, you can make it happen. Is it pretty similar place to place? Kind of, yeah. I mean, it requires city council meetings, petitions, hearings.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  But sometimes it's like, hey, this guy has this land, he'll donate it. Well, that's one huge hurdle to get over. Yeah. Or we only need this much more to reach our goal for funding. And it's like some wealthy person in that area had a deep history with skating, and they're like, I got it. And then we're the ones that can connect those dots. Great. To date, we've helped to fund over 900 parks. Amazing. Yeah. That's a huge number. Huge. Huge. And globally, or mostly in the States? In all 50 states, but we have a partnership with Skatistan, who, they provide skate parks and educational facilities

• 1:16:38Speaker 01

  in South Africa, Afghanistan, Cambodia, Jordan. We help them with their projects because there's no one I would trust more.

• 1:16:47Rick Rubin?

  How would you say, besides the fact that you've dedicated your life to it, it's provided for you and your family, how else has skateboarding changed you?

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  It's given me a sense of confidence that I don't think I would have found anywhere else. And, and identity. Everything that I do almost inherently is connected to skateboarding. Even with my kids, in a lot of ways. And so, I identify with it, but I identify with it proudly. And for instance, like when I was in, when I was a freshman in high school, I was a pro skater. Right? I was the top amateur skater. I was about to go pro. I had to hide my skateboard before I went to school. Like, I would hide it in the bushes, near the bungalows. Because I would get harassed at school with it. Like, I would get bullied, or he would steal it, or they would like beat me up, or put me in the trash can, or whatever. Like, that was going to happen.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  And then I would go through the day and try to be low-key and out of everyone's way, and then go get my skateboard at the end of the day and skate home. And then go to the skate park and be there until closing. Learning all these tricks.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  And it wasn't that I was embarrassed to be a skater, it was just hard to identify like that. It was dangerous, yeah. And nowadays, like, I'm old as fuck, and I like go on a plane, and I put my skateboard up in the overhead bin in first class. Take up space for other people. And I'm like, this is me. This is who I am, you know? Take it or leave it.

• 1:18:19Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  And so I just mean like, it's become so...

• 1:18:24Speaker 01

  It's an extension of my body now, and it's something that I am very proud of.

• 1:18:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, I'm so glad that you get to continue doing it at the level that gives you that feeling of joy. It's amazing.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Rick Rubin?

  Amazing.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  I am so lucky. I'm living the dream. Like, I'm so lucky.

• 1:18:40Rick Rubin?

  When you were 14, could you have imagined

• 1:18:42Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:18:43Rick Rubin?

  the grown-up you doing this?

• 1:18:45Speaker 01

  No, I mean...

• 1:18:46Rick Rubin?

  It's unimaginable.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  When I was 24, I made the washed-up skater list in Big Brother.

• 1:18:53Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  I was washed up at 24.

• 1:18:56Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  Still learning tricks, but for what?

• 1:19:00Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, because nobody else cared.

• 1:19:02Speaker 01

  I mean, I did. I would, I still do.

• 1:19:04Rick Rubin?

  No, but that's the beauty of it is your dedication is what allowed the whole thing to happen.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  That's something that I, it's hard for me to accept, but I'm hugely proud of it. You know, if I did anything to raise the profile of skating, or if someone got inspired by me and my dedication or stubbornness, it's the best thing that I could hope for.

• 1:19:27Rick Rubin?

  What's the last trick that you were committed to doing that took a long time to get to?

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  I did that trick, the impossible, I did what we call a front foot impossible. So you take off and you use the other foot to wrap the board around. So it's like a two-part process and makes it take more time.

• 1:19:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  And then I did it to a backside air. I had never done it and I had to do it. I had to do it really high to have all that time to do it. And I had to set up with my feet in an awkward position. So when you do tricks aerials to get speed, there's kind of a standard aerial that you do that's just functional. It's just for getting speed.

• 1:20:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  I couldn't do it like that because I had to have my foot in this fucked up position and it was in the way of my hands. So I had a different type of air. And I kept trying it, trying it, like got close a couple of times and finally set a date. This is it, we're getting to some film.

• 1:20:28Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  I had a Teba Jefferson there shooting a sequence of it. And I made it, but it was, it was so fucking hard.

• 1:20:35Rick Rubin?

  Is that the only time you've ever done it?

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Only time, the only time I'll ever do it.

• 1:20:38Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  I landed one and fell.

• 1:20:42Rick Rubin?

  How many hours would you say it took to get, to be able to do it? Just focusing on that trick?

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  It was probably a year of off and on attempts.

• 1:20:50Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:51Speaker 01

  Like an hour at a time, so.

• 1:20:53Rick Rubin?

  So you knew it was possible, you just hadn't done it yet?

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was just as hard as I imagined to do, like probably harder than I imagined. Because the one time that I did try to make it, I thought I had it and then I just fell backwards across the flat and it was like, fuck, if I can't make it like that.

• 1:21:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  And then the one-

• 1:21:13Rick Rubin?

  Was there a breakthrough or it was just?

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  No, it was just inching towards it, inching towards it and then finally landing one. Went up on the deck, just collapsed. Like, that's it, I'm done.

• 1:21:26Rick Rubin?

  Are there any tricks that have taken a really long time to learn, but once you learn them, you can do them like it's nothing?

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:33Rick Rubin?

  How does that happen?

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  You just get more confident with it. Back in the day, we learned tricks to have them in our repertoire. So like in Bonn's brigade days, if you learned a trick, you're gonna keep doing that trick going forward.

• 1:21:46Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  It's only in the last 20 years or so where it's like, that trick is so hard. I'm only gonna do it once.

• 1:21:52Rick Rubin?

  It's a one-time only.

• 1:21:53Speaker 01

  It's a one-time thing, yeah.

• 1:21:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:21:55Speaker 01

  But for sure, like, there've been some other tricks that I've learned fairly recently and it was like, I could throw that in there. Like, that's a pretty cool one.

• 1:22:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah. What gets you excited about learning a trick? Just the fact that you haven't seen it done before and you can do it?

• 1:22:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Or even if it's something that has been done.

• 1:22:12Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, but you haven't done it.

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  By someone else, but I've never done it, like, that's exciting to me.

• 1:22:16Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  And that buzz, when you land something that you've never done, that buzz, like, that's the dragon.

• 1:22:23Rick Rubin?

  Does watching skateboarding excite you as much as it always did?

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  It probably excites me more now because of the possibilities now, because I'm seeing what's next.

• 1:22:34Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  You know, in a lot of ways, I was trying to help create what's next, especially through those 80s and 90s, but now it's way beyond what I'm doing and so I just watch it like, I never imagined.

• 1:22:46Rick Rubin?

  And you're astounded by what you're seeing?

• 1:22:48Speaker 01

  Astounded, yeah, it's fucking unreal.

• 1:22:50Rick Rubin?

  What's the craziest thing you've ever seen?

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  There are tricks that Bob Bernquist has done, and he's more of a generation of like 90s era, but there are tricks that he has done that I'm convinced no one else will ever do.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  For instance, we're in the weeds here, but

• 1:23:11Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  He did a frontside 540, which is not, usually you do backside McTwist. McTwist is a 540.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  There's a trick called a Nar Jar.

• 1:23:21Rick Rubin?

  What's that?

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  So, a body jar is when you go up in the air and then on the way down, you land on the tail. And it's very risky because if you're trying to land on the tail, it's a good chance you're gonna miss and your trucks are gonna go over and you hang up and you're down. If body jars go wrong, you're getting KO'd. You know what I mean? There's no, there's no safe way out

• 1:23:40Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:40Speaker 01

  of a bad body jar.

• 1:23:41Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  A Nar Jar is a 540 and then on the way down, you come down on your tail. It's the gnarliest of jars, right?

• 1:23:51Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  There's like four people in the world that have ever done it.

• 1:23:54Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:55Speaker 01

  And to this day, I'm like

• 1:23:56Rick Rubin?

  But when you see it, it's just like terrifying?

• 1:23:58Speaker 01

  It's terrifying.

• 1:23:59Rick Rubin?

  Even to watch it?

• 1:24:00Speaker 01

  Because you know what can go wrong as a skater.

• 1:24:03Rick Rubin?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:03Speaker 01

  Other people see it and they're like, oh, that was cool. 540 hits tail and it's like, oh. Bob did it frontside.

• 1:24:09Rick Rubin?

  Are there things that you ever see in street skating that are like astounding to you?

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, the way that people can just pinch into a rail and just stay on a rail now. And, and they're on a rail and then they're setting up their other foot for what is gonna happen when they come off. That shit, like I, it's so far beyond me, I cannot believe it.

• 1:24:27Rick Rubin?

  It's wild.

• 1:24:28Speaker 01

  It's wild. It's what we put in our video games so that you could skate in a fantastical way because we never thought that stuff would be possible.

• 1:24:37Rick Rubin?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  And now, a lot of the skaters now grew up playing those games.

• 1:24:40Rick Rubin?

  And they can do it.

• 1:24:41Speaker 01

  They can do it.

• 1:24:42Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable.

• 1:24:43Speaker 01

  Unbelievable.

• 1:24:43Rick Rubin?

  Unbelievable. I think sci-fi works that way too. You read things in sci-fi books that are impossible, but then 20 years later, the seeds are planted.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  20 years later, it's better than it was in that version of it. Yeah.

• 1:25:24Speaker 02

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