Can Wemby’s Spurs Shake Off a True Gut Punch? Plus: Adam Friedland on NYC Coming Alive, Trump at MSG, and the World Cup.

Join The Ringer’s Bill Simmons LIVE on Netflix to give his thoughts on Game 2 of the NBA Finals and to discuss what the Spurs will need to do being down 0-2 in the series (1:15). Then, Adam Friedland joins the pod to talk Knicks, the World Cup, and much, much more (50:27). Host: Bill Simmons Guest: Adam Friedland Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Brought to you by PayPal. Learn more at paypal.com The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit https://fanduel.com/playwithaplan to learn more about the resources and helplines Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:06Bill Simmons?

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• 2:15Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're coming to you live on Netflix between game two and game three of the NBA Finals. Adam Friedland coming up in a little bit. First time he's ever been on the BS Podcast. I'm excited to talk to him. I have a bunch of random reactions coming off game two, heading into the rest of this series. And because I'm an experienced professional who's had a podcast for over 20 years. I feel like I can do this on the fly. I wrote down a bunch of stuff. First of all, most incredible Knicks playoff win, game two, since LJ's four-point play. Brunson goes seven for 25 for 20 points and they still win. They don't get a single call for 90 minutes, other than a challenge that they

• 2:57Bill Simmons?

  challenged and won the challenge to get the OG three. They still win. They blow a 14-point lead in the last six minutes of game two. They still win. They have Towns absolutely destroying Wemby in the first half of the game, to the point that at halftime Shaq and Kenny had to do like a long mea culpa. I was right there with him, you know, to cement his sudden arrival as one of the 12 most important guys in the league. We will talk about that a little bit later. Yeah, Bridges leaving his own body and officially making everybody who's ever criticized what they gave up in that Nets trade, myself included in the last year, just because they gave up all the assets they would have needed to get Giannis. But who needs Giannis now? You're two wins away from the title. So you

• 3:40Bill Simmons?

  had this incredible Bridges game. And then you had Wemby closing with a really horrific three-point air ball that got lost in what happened next. A horrible two-for-one fall away 22 footer. The Spurs did two things in the last 40 seconds of this game that I hate. One is, we gotta get a two-for-one and you end up getting a terrible shot. I'd rather just get one awesome shot. And then the foul to give, I just have always hated. And they did the foul to give, which of course when Wemby fouls Brunson with 10 seconds left, you have no foul to give and suddenly he's shooting free throws. You have an all-time iconic

• 4:19Bill Simmons?

  People screaming out loud as it's happening, bad turnover with Wemby, which we'll get to in a second. You've already heard people talk about it for two days. I have some additional thoughts. And then you have a wide open 18 foot miss from a 22 year old guy that was actually a really good shot.

• 4:34Bill Simmons?

  The question is whether that's the right play in the right moment for somebody like that who's been kind of skidding backwards in the last two minutes of the game. But the Castle play, throwing the ball off his back, I think was the closest we've seen in the NBA to the Chris Webber timeout play in college against North Carolina for a bunch of reasons. One, the coach is standing next to Wemby and he's doing this. He's telling him to go to push it because he doesn't want to call a timeout to set up a play. I don't know why he was so excited to have his seven foot seven center dribbling the ball up with 10 seconds left in a must win game. I probably would have rethought that. There's a great angle of Wemby from the other side and he's got both of his point guards to his right.

• 5:20Bill Simmons?

  Doesn't even look at him, looks forward. Castle, I'm torn on this because I think Castle thinks Wemby is going to take the ball down, which he's done in the past. So he's starting to put his head down and run. But I also feel like if you're a real point guard, you want the ball, you're going to come to the ball, you're ready for the ball. And Castle's, you know, he's a guard. He's not a real point guard. If that's Fox or Harper, they're turning around. They're trying to get the ball from Wemby because they, they want the car keys in that moment. And it was just, just an absolute clusterfuck and I kind of couldn't believe it as it was happening. It was, I think, one of the all timers for an, oh no. And everybody had that reaction. There were great reactions that people captured all over the place.

• 6:04Bill Simmons?

  But when I think about, you'd throw that play in and then how the game ended and just blowing an incredible comeback. The most damaging, non-clinching, non-injury finals of the last 50 years. So we're moving all the game sevens. We're removing stuff like Halliburton last year against OKC because that's probably number one. Like losing your best guy in a game seven.

• 6:27Bill Simmons?

  I went to the JR Smith game in 2018, which was another, oh no.

• 6:33Bill Simmons?

  Where they get the rebound and just, okay, and you couldn't even believe it as it was happening. The Ray Allen shot game six 2013 against Miami. Obviously, I was at that game too. The crazy Celtics game four comeback in 2008. The totality of coming back from 24 and then feeling like they completely broke the Lakers at the end. Wade Salvatore game five Miami Dallas 2006. Now we've blended game three and game five together in our heads and just thought Miami got all the calls for both of those games and they did get a lot of calls in game three. Game three was a much better game and also had, I think Dirk missed a big free throw at one point,

• 7:15Bill Simmons?

  but the Heat climbed back. A lot of people are involved. It was just more of a traditional awesome comeback. Game five was, was pretty awful in the moment and culminated in Miami winning and Cuban doing that thing where he, he just stared at David Stern from the court. He was so angry. I wrote a very upset column about after that game. That was pretty egregious and you just felt like, you felt like Dallas was done after that game. The Nick Anderson game, which a lot of people brought up in 1995 is another one. The four missed free throws. I, I see the comparisons with the 95 Magic and this Spurs team and what happened, but you can't really compare those two games for this reason.

• 7:59Bill Simmons?

  The Magic had the game. It was over and he missed four straight free throws and three and four were like you're watching somebody's career flash before their eyes. And when he missed it, then it goes into OT, I think, and then they, they end up losing. But that was much more of a, we had it. Oh my God, I can't believe we blew this game. Whereas the Spurs game, they clawed back. They almost won. They had to make a couple, you know, play stops. It was a back and forth game and even though it was devastating, trust me, it was not like the Nick Anderson game. Isaiah sprained ankle in 1988 where the Pistons are up 3-2. They're better than the Lakers that year. Isaiah gets hurt, still has a 25 in the third quarter and then they end up blowing it late.

• 8:43Bill Simmons?

  Magic junior skyhook. I was at this game, 1987, game four. Celts are up six with two minutes left and it just becomes an operatic collapse culminating in the junior skyhook and then Bird missing, which we captured in the Celtic City documentary, Bird missing the three pointer to win it by about one one hundredth of an inch. That was the most devastated I've been after a game. And then Henderson steal in game two of the 1984 finals, the Lakers are going to finish off the Celtics and probably sweep or win in five. And then Worthy throws it to Henderson, goes into overtime. So that from the last 50 years, those are the worst ones. And I really do think that game two with the Spurs is on that list because having your best guy and

• 9:28Bill Simmons?

  the guy who's supposed to be the next guy, like LeBron in 2007 was 22 and he made the finals. They just got their ass kicked. Nobody remembers a single thing about that finals. There wasn't anything you could really hang on LeBron and be like, oh, that play. Wemby is just about the best player ever to have like a really dopey play like that happen to him. And we'll see how he responds over the next couple, uh, couple of games, but that was about as bad as it gets for a great player. And I think if I'm doing blame pie, Castle 20% for just turning around and running forward. I'm just trying to get the ball from

• 10:09Bill Simmons?

  my center. Mitch Johnson, at least 50% for not calling a timeout. And then Wemby, who I just think brain farted and kind of panicked when he should have been like, where, where's Harper and where's Fox? Those are the two guys I need to get the ball to. So I'd put him at like 30 to 35%. That's probably too much blame pie. That might've been 105% of a blame pie, whatever. Here's another thing that, that came out of this game that I was stunned by even that night as I was thinking about it. The Spurs have five of the worst playoff losses, and I think their five is worse than anyone else's five. They lost the Ray Allen shot game, which is the worst loss anyone's had in the history of the NBA

• 10:53Bill Simmons?

  finals. The Derek Fisher 0.4 shot in 2004, where the Spurs were just better than the Lakers that year. And that, that's still a pretty stupid series. And Fisher just getting a jump shot off in four tenths of a second. I don't even know if that's legal by the rules we have now, but that was devastating, especially because Timmy had made a big shot right before that to give them the lead. That's two. Manu fouling Dirk.

• 11:22Bill Simmons?

  Up three in the last like 20 seconds, game seven, 2006.

• 11:29Bill Simmons?

  And we love Manu and Manu's a great player and it was just, he was trying to challenge the play. I, I actually don't think he did the wrong thing, but he fouls Dirk. Dirk gets the three point play, goes into overtime, Dallas wins. The Wemby Castle pass has to be up there. And then that famous Rod Strickland 1990 play, I was in college for that one. Although I think I was probably out of classes by that point, but, um, but that was an all-timer. Throws it over his head backwards and, uh, and ends up, Portland ends up. Not only did he turn the ball over by throwing it over his head with like 30 seconds to nobody. Portland gets a fast break, which he then hard fouls the guy on the fast break. And I think it ends up being two free throws and the ball.

• 12:13Bill Simmons?

  So those five plus, you gotta go with, uh, the Spurs in 1979 blew a 3-1 lead to the Bullets. And in game seven, Bobby Dandridge kills them with 10 seconds left. Now that wasn't like a screw up, but it was a really horrible like collapse. We thought George Gervin was going to be in the finals. And then, uh, Dandridge matches him. I think Gervin had 42, Dandridge had like 35, 37. And he made the big shot with 10 seconds left.

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  I think, I, I put some thought into this, that's the worst five losses. If you're gonna, top five worst losses by franchise. Nobody can touch that. Ray Allen, Fisher, Manu Fale, Dirk, the Wemby Castle pass and Rod Strickland. I needed either one or two words to explain each of those moments and you knew what I was talking about. So, um, that part's nuts. Another one, a Knicks final sweep, which I think was 16 to one on FanDuel before the finals.

• 13:13Bill Simmons?

  I think would be one of the two craziest outcomes in the history of the finals. If you're just talking, I'm not talking about upsets, craziest team that won. I'm just talking about outcome. A Knicks sweep. The only thing you can compare to that is 95. The Rockets sweeping Orlando, which I can't remember. I bet on Houston and that is one of my favorite bets I ever made betting on Houston that series. They did not have the sweep, I don't think. But, but that Pistons in five over the Lakers in 2004. I think if you thought the Pistons were going to win that one, you wouldn't have thought it was going to be that decisive.

• 13:55Bill Simmons?

  And then I think the 91 Bulls beating the Lakers in five would be another one because that was a classic. It was a little like this series, actually. Is the young team ready? The old team with know-how, veterans, who do you have? I picked the Lakers that series. I bet on the Lakers that series.

• 14:13Bill Simmons?

  And the Bulls won in five. But I would think this is one of the two most shocking outcomes along with the Houston Orlando sweep. The other thing is if they win the title. I think this becomes our premier NBA example of experience over youth. Because it used to be the 95 Rockets over, over the, over the Magic. I think it would now flip to this because that 95 Magic team did have Brian Shaw, that Horace Grant. It wasn't like this. It was this completely young team. I think the Spurs feel younger to me than that team. A writer named Noops Christensen, a mailbag writer. Said, I had a thought about Knicks Spurs. I present the YMCA test. Imagine if it were the championship game for the best league at your local YMCA.

• 14:57Bill Simmons?

  Team A has five very talented players ages 21, 22, 24, 25 and 28. They're playing team B, which might be slightly less talented, but still talented. And their players are 28, 29, 29, 31 and 30. Are you taking the more talented but younger team A or the veteran team B? The YMCA test.

• 15:16Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like this. There's been some other YMCA battles. Like I think the, a really good one was the 2011 Thunder against the 2011 Mavericks was one of my favorite ones for these. But then you'll have the next year where the 2012 Thunder, we thought that was another YMCA test series and they beat the Spurs. So it doesn't always work, but I did enjoy this. All right. So what do, what do the Spurs have to do to flip a series down to games? So you can either be down 2-0 or 3-1 in a series. I went back and I looked at all the times we've been in this situation, the finals.

• 15:55Bill Simmons?

  And what you learn is you need some sort of dramatic karma changing, momentum changing something. And you don't know what it is. It could be as simple as the president decided to go to game three. I'm sorry, too soon. 2021 Suns, they won, I'm sorry, they, they won the first two at home and then blew the series to the Bucks, right? Well, what happened in that series? Post-COVID, a little weird. That was the, that was, we're sitting in the stands with, some people were in masks, other people, it was just a weird vibe for that whole thing. But game five had one of the craziest sequences. That game's in Phoenix.

• 16:39Bill Simmons?

  The series is tied at two after Milwaukee won their two at home. And then you have that one where Drew Holiday comes fine in, steals the ball from Booker, they get the fast break the other way and the awesome crazy all-time athletic alley of Tejana's. And it was one of those sequences where you're like, holy shit, Milwaukee's going to win the finals now. So that's one. But 2016 Cavs was a bigger one. That was the Draymond suspension after game four. And I've talked about this before, but the Cavs lose game four at home to Golden State. It's one of the best games of the 2010s. The Warriors are better than them. They finish them. And then at the end of the game, LeBron goes Draymond into the technical and that flips that one. 2006 Heat, you have that game three

• 17:24Bill Simmons?

  comeback I mentioned earlier where they're down 13 with six minutes left. The Heat scored 22 points in the last six minutes and they get Dirk to miss the one and two free throws that, in the last 10 seconds that gets them to win it. That flips a little. They win game four and then game five is the Bennett Salvatore game. And then the 1977 Blazers is the other one. They're down 2-0 to Philly. And at the end of that game, there's a huge fight with Darryl Dawkins and Maurice Lucas. And Dawkins is so mad after the game that he like destroys the locker room. He feels like the Sixers didn't help him. And it kind of fucked the team up. So I would say that counts for some sort of momentum shift.

• 18:08Bill Simmons?

  There's one time out of all those, so I have the 2021 Bucks, 16 Cavs, 06 Heat, 77 Blazers, which is your best hope for the Spurs because almost 50 years later, they're very similar to that 77 Blazers team. Young core, Wemby is Bill Walton, fall down 0-2 in the finals. Everybody thinks the series is over. The 93 Suns go down 0-2 to the Chicago Bulls.

• 18:35Bill Simmons?

  They have a crazy game three. That's like one of the lost great NBA games. Triple overtime. Triple overtime, game three, and the Suns win. They beat Michael Jordan in Chicago. Right? Feels like they flipped the momentum back. What happens? The Bulls have Michael Jordan and he scores 55 in game four and basically just says, no way, you're not coming back.

• 19:01Bill Simmons?

  So that's the one time when the momentum shift happened and then the team that was up 2-0 that I could think of stayed it off. So how do you flip a series down two games? You need something crazy to happen in game three. I don't think it can just be a win. I think it has to be either the Knicks collapse, the vibes are weird, Wemby puts up a 50-30, something crazy, something crazy has to happen Monday night for this series to flip. It can't just be, oh, the Spurs played better and they won. It's gotta be like a tangible flip because no team has ever lost the first two at home and then won the series. So you would need something really dramatic. The goodness for them is they do have a really great player, even if he hasn't 100% played like it in the finals so far.

• 19:46Bill Simmons?

  Which brings me to Wemby.

• 19:50Bill Simmons?

  This is something I remember talking about two years ago with Anthony Edwards after game three of the Dallas series, which was really bad for both him and Towns. And on the Sunday night pod, I was talking about how there are levels of this with the playoffs and you don't know it until you're in it. And it's just really hard for guys 20, 21, 22, 23, as everything gets harder, as you're seeing the same, same team, you know, maybe seven times in two weeks. There's, there's levels to it. There's ways you get pushed mentally and physically that you've just never dealt with before. And sometimes you can see young players, no matter

• 20:30Bill Simmons?

  how great they are, you can feel it start to break their brain. And it happened a little with Edwards. He did rally back in that Dallas series and his last two games were pretty good. LeBron in the 2007 finals, he was 22, he shot 36%, had almost six turnovers a game. Tatum, at age 23, in the 22 finals against Golden State's a good example. He just really unraveled and it was fatigue and how the Warriors were defending him. He shot 37%, but you could feel it in the last few games. You just could feel him losing, losing control of all the stuff that he was so good at. Shaq in the 95 finals, just getting killed by Hakeem. KD is a good one. He's aged 22 in that Dallas series I mentioned. Both him

• 21:14Bill Simmons?

  and Westbrook, just felt really young in that series. KD only shot 42% in that series, but Dirk really took it to him. An underrated one was Derrick Rose in the 2011 Miami series, when it was like, is it too early for Derrick Rose? Like that Miami team was pretty limited. They, I mean, they basically had the three guys in Haslem. Rose shot 35%, just, just couldn't put it together in that series. The one example of somebody pretty young.

• 21:44Bill Simmons?

  That I thought acquitted themselves well and actually I didn't didn't feel at all like they were young was Luca in that Golden State series in 2022. He's pretty good in that series. Go back and you look at the stats. He was not the reason they lost and his stats in general Luca has never really been spooked by the finals. The Celtics probably did the best job against him in 24, but or not by a playoff series, not the finals. But Luca's the only example. The point is when you're a young player and you're great, there's still levels to this and it's still like solving the video game. And I think you could really feel that Wemby. Wemby was so bad in the first half. Towns

• 22:24Bill Simmons?

  just took it to him and and he did respond in the second half. So if I'm if I'm the Spurs, you know, I'm going to get to that one second. Dan Klimko, a listener, wrote in, where does this Wemby game two collapse rank for you on the tragic Johnson, C-Web timeout, Freddie Brown's pass to James Worthy in 82, Bird steals the ball from Isaiah, et cetera, scale?

• 22:51Bill Simmons?

  We don't know yet because we don't know how the finals is going to turn out. This is a sweep?

• 22:57Bill Simmons?

  I do think that play gets mentioned. Big picture. I do think Wemby Castle, I just think you'll know instantly what it was. It will take you right to that moment and it'll just be one of the weirder brain fart plays that we've ever had. There was a really good slow mo from behind the hoop where Castle's turning as Wemby's throwing it. When you slow it down, you're like, why is he throwing it? Castle's already turned. But in real time, he's dribbling. There's 10 seconds. There's a bunch of stuff going in his head and he's like, I should give that to Castle and he's throwing it to him, but Castle's already turned around. It's just the kind of play that would never happen if he was 27, 28, 29, he's been in the league for a few years. He would have looked for his point guards.

• 23:40Bill Simmons?

  This goes back to the whole youth versus experience thing. This was why we were wondering whether they were the 90 Bulls or the 91 Bulls all season. This is my hesitation with them for a long time and that I finally bought in on them the last couple rounds of you just can't quantify it until you're there. And that played to me is the perfect example of you just don't know until you're in a moment like that, when you're on a stage like that with that many people watching, when you've had a crappy first half, when you're trying to climb back, when you're tired, when you feel like you have to do everything and you just kind of panic. Magic Johnson's one of the seven best players of all time. You go back to the 84 finals, he's terrible. Like his worst play in that whole finals was the end of game two.

• 24:22Bill Simmons?

  He dribbles out the clock versus giving the ball to Kareem. They didn't even get a shot off on the last play of regulation. He just like brain farted and this is kind of stuff to happen. All right, so if you're the Spurs, what's your roadmap for coming back? I think you have to look at it this way. You didn't get your ass kicked. You're used to the speed of the finals now, like you understand what it takes. You, you really found something in the last six minutes of game two. You've had big leads in both games. You double digit leads, I think in both games. You led game one with two minutes left. You came back from 14, you led game two with 57 seconds left.

• 25:03Bill Simmons?

  So this wasn't like, like I was there for Spurs, Heat 2014 because I was on the ESPN show and I felt like that series is over after game three. Like it was like the Spurs are just better. Like this is a wrap. This is, Miami's not coming back from this. So you feel, one of the things you look at when you're looking at a matchup, deciding whether a series is over yet is, is the team just laying it on the other team, right? Are there 20 point leads? Is it, what are the, this has been a pretty even back and forth series.

• 25:34Bill Simmons?

  The Spurs lost two 50-50 games, right? Pretty small sample size, so you would talk yourself into that. You would talk yourself into you completely threw away game two. It was one of the more ridiculous losses in recent finals history. Your Brunson defense has worked. He's 19 for 56. He's taken 56 shots for 51 points. So now you could say all the stuff you're doing to stop Brunson has now led to people like Bridges getting hot. Towns has been borderline dominant. But still, that's few had said after two games, 56 for 51. I'm feeling pretty good about that. I'm feeling pretty good about maybe a little less Castle going forward. I love Castle.

• 26:18Bill Simmons?

  He's probably one of my 10 favorite players in the league. The fear with him is always that there was this little bit of a Westbrook side with him. This irrational confidence side that no matter what the moment was, he, he has so much confidence in himself. He's gonna kind of meander in situations you shouldn't be in. And you could really feel that in game two. I just think Harper has been their second best guy. And is the guy I probably trust the most other than Wemby. And it's weird because Castle is a great player, but I think they need his defense and his intangible stuff way more than the ball handling. Like, I wonder, well, you figure they're gonna make some adjustments. Would they put him on Towns in game three a little bit? What are they gonna do to try to disrupt Towns?

• 27:03Bill Simmons?

  Castle has been the guy disrupting Brunson, but do they try to flip it around and move him around? And just try to unleash him as, as this like intangibles force versus somebody that's, you know, it seems like he has the ball a little bit more than he should, and Harper doesn't have the ball enough. So when I think of the moves, less Castle, use it, lower Castle usage rate would be my first one.

• 27:28Bill Simmons?

  I would use Carter Bryant as the backup center against Towns. I like Cornet, but we've just seen too much of the playoffs. Cornet comes in and you immediately feel like the Spurs are gonna go on a 2 to 10, the opposite of a run. I would use Bryant against Towns. I love Bryant. I actually don't think they're using him enough to say, I know he's 19. I know he's a baby.

• 27:50Bill Simmons?

  And I mean, a baby, like literally, he's like a young, a young NBA player is two years away from being able to legally drink. I think they need his physicality because if you're talking about the one thing this Spurs team has been missing all season, it's been that prototypical physical four that you could put next to Wemby, that could guard like the Towns, Julius Reynolds, those type of guys. It's really Carter Bryant. And if I were them, I would lean on him more and I would lean less on Cornet. And then the biggest thing is Harper has to be on the floor even more and they have to use Harper at crunch time. I think he only played four minutes in a fourth quarter, game one.

• 28:30Bill Simmons?

  Game two, played more, he ended up 32 minutes, but he's the least afraid guy they have on this team. I don't know why, but he just is, the guy is like born for this. It, I, I really am careful to bring this up and I think I've even said this before, but the 2000 Kobe, game four Indiana, which was like really the beginning of the legend of Kobe.

• 28:53Bill Simmons?

  Shaq fouled out and I'm, I was living in Boston back then. And like so many people my age and younger, like really, really thought Kobe had a chance to be the next Jordan or close. And when Shaq fouled out, I think everybody had the same thought, like huh, what do we have here with Kobe? Let's, it's time, let's see it. And I think the thing everybody thought in the moment was this guy, whatever happens, this guy's not gonna be scared. Harper is not scared. He's the opposite of scared. I actually feel like he's the most aggro, ready for this of anyone on their team. It doesn't make sense. He's 20 years old. We've talked about on pods in the past about young point guards.

• 29:39Bill Simmons?

  This doesn't make sense. It just doesn't. But it's the reality of the situation. This guy is not scared. He needs to play more and he probably needs to have the ball. Like you think about some of the terrible shots they had in the last three minutes of the game, which are always like these fall away 22 footers, these contested threes, like these shots in traffic. I like all the, all the decisions and situations Harper is in with the ball. I just feel the best about it. I don't understand why they don't run pick and roll with him and Wemby. I just, I just would have the ball in his hands way more than, than they do. And maybe that will be. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. And whether it's a flea flicker or a tush push, you need a plan that fits your unique situation.

• 30:24Bill Simmons?

  That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and for your budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun, sometimes earlier than expected, sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun with Expedia save up to 30% when you bundle and save, you can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun, one, two, three Cancun, or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. The flip. Couple other things for them. You already know you can win on the road in the

• 31:08Bill Simmons?

  hairiest situations possible. They won a game one and a game seven in OKC. I know this Knicks game is going to be a madhouse tomorrow and game four and it's, the crowd's going to be incredible. And I honestly can't wait. OKC's crowd is really loud. It's not really going to be a louder crowd than OKC. Like if OKC, if you could criticize their crowd or anything, it's like a constant loud noise that you're, you're kind of head, your head hurts after two hours of it, but it's not going to be louder than that crowd. And they went in there and they won. So I don't think they're going to be scared unless this game two loss was just the most damaging thing ever. Trump's going to screw up the game three. And I don't mean it from being there. I'm not talking about politics. It's going to take two hours to get in there. The game will probably start 15

• 31:53Bill Simmons?

  minutes later than it should. Which means like these games are already starting around like 8:40, 8:41. East Coast time. The game will probably start closer to nine. And if you remember like in the 22 finals, they were starting the, the East Coast games super late. And I, I went to game three and I went to game six. I didn't go to game four.

• 32:17Bill Simmons?

  I thought it, I thought it affected the crowd. The game would start at like 9:15, the crowds out, they've had dinner, they've had drinks, like they've kind of peaked around that 7:30 to 10 range. And by the time you get into the second half, it's late. It's like past 11 o'clock, you feel like you've had all this energy and it's, it's a weird dynamic. I, I just think, I think this is, if I'm the Spurs, this is the kind of, kind of crowd slash time situation you're gonna want. Where it's just gonna feel disjointed and you want disjointed when you're on the road. And then the last thing is Wemby. Wemby's a great player. Wemby in the second half of game two at 22 points. I thought he was all over the place defensively covering the rim.

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  He's taken some shit because when he's 25 feet out from the basket, guys have gone by him. Guess what? He's a center. Name me anyone over seven feet that that would happen to. I, I just think like, if you're criticizing Wemby's defense in this, you're nuts.

• 33:15Bill Simmons?

  But he hasn't been the best player in the series and I'm not even sure he's been the second best player in the series. So, what is, is he gonna dig deep? Is this gonna be like that game two is the before and after of, ah, that hardened him, that taught him how to win? Or is he just gonna go sideways like Shaq did in 95? We will see. If you're the Knicks, you got no calls in game two, you still won on the road. You got no calls.

• 33:42Bill Simmons?

  And I actually, I didn't do a FanDuel pick for game two. I did bet on the Spurs money line with an adjusted over. Because I thought the officiating was gonna be what it was in that game. And it was what it was. We all saw it. They even rescinded the Mitchell Robinson technical after the fact, which was an idiotic, ridiculous technical at the time. The Towns game, the third and fourth fouls on Towns were atrocious.

• 34:09Bill Simmons?

  So you still win that game and you could argue if the officiating was a little more balanced, maybe you win that game by 10. If you're the Knicks, you have to assume Brunson's shots are going to start falling. That he's, he's just, even down the stretch, they missed some wide open threes, Brunson missed some shots he just normally makes. So you have to assume he'll be better. You have to assume the crowd's going to be incredible and that's almost definitely to your benefit. We'll see. We'll see what the, how disjointed it is. And you're going to be ready for more Harper in this game. You know, that's like the, the one thing the Spurs can do is unleash Harper a little more. So you gotta be ready and gotta plan for that. Okay. Last

• 34:51Bill Simmons?

  thing, Karl-Anthony Towns. Been thinking about this a lot because I don't really remember anything totally like this happening before in an NBA playoffs where somebody that was a really good, pretty flawed star who I think made the last three worst contracts draft that I did with House and Wise. But we all thought he was good. Anytime we did a Ringer 100, he was always in the top 30 or 35. He's made two second team ONBAs or one second team NBA in two thirds. He's averaged 23 and 11 for his career for the regular season. 52, 40 and 84 shooting percentages.

• 35:37Bill Simmons?

  If you just look at the guys in the history of the league who've played at least 700 games and averaged 22 and 11, right? Not crazy. 22 and 11, 700 plus games. Jokic, Will, Elgin, Barkley, Kareem, Bob Pettit and Karl-Anthony Towns. So this is somebody that the stats always favored. Somebody that I think after his career, we probably like in the basketball reference, looking back era, the stats would have been more favorable to him.

• 36:09Bill Simmons?

  And yet with somebody none of us trusted. And that's just the way it is.

• 36:15Bill Simmons?

  But when you think about the Knicks make this trade two years ago and they're they basically, they don't have a center because they lose Hartenstein. Hartenstein getting poison pill basically by Oklahoma City and the Knicks losing Hartenstein leads to the Towns trade. They're heading toward this season and they decide we have no chance unless we have some sort of center. Towns' contract is scary. We can give up Randall and DiFenzo and get him. And they basically just bet on the pedigree. They bet on a guy that Wes and Leon had known since he was 15 years old when they were when Wes was trying to recruit him at Kentucky. They'd known him forever. Right? They're betting on the pedigree. Now, sometimes this doesn't work. Didn't work with Darko. Remember, I think Orlando traded for Darko? Didn't work.

• 37:00Bill Simmons?

  Thabeet? Did Thabeet ever have pedigree? He was taken second. Michael Beasley is a good one. Michael Beasley, always one of the best two or three high school players in his class all the way up. Put up, I think, 25 and 10 in college. Was a little out there, to say the least, personality wise, but there was pedigree there and a bunch of teams took chances on him. Never happened. And then Ben Simmons was a good one. Oh, he's fine. It's just the Philly thing didn't work out. You just gotta change the scenery. Well, that didn't work. Deandre Ayton, sort of. Portland and the Lakers. So, this doesn't always work and there's a million more examples than that. But there's, this is something GMs think about. If somebody was a top five pick, a top three pick, the first pick in the draft, maybe

• 37:45Bill Simmons?

  they were in the wrong situation. Maybe you could flip them to another situation. It works way better in baseball. It's worked in football sometimes where, especially with quarterbacks, where you they flip teams and things can change. In basketball, Wiggins was a great example of this in Golden State. Wiggins, we'd all kind of given up on as a meaningful player. He had a bad contract. Goes to Golden State. He's their second best guy in the 2022 finals team. Aaron Gordon, sort of like this. He was the fifth pick in the draft. We all loved Aaron Gordon. But just never, never really had it in Orlando. Right? Goes to Denver, becomes this crucial guy in their 23 team. Rasheed. Was a good one. Rasheed had been in some big moments and had had probably more success than

• 38:30Bill Simmons?

  Towns, but was too much of a hothead, set the technicals record. And by the time he lands in Detroit, the question was, wasn't for me because I like to trade, but is that too risky? Do you want to be in business with Rasheed Wallace? Well, they end up beating the Lakers that year. Chauncey Billups is a great one for this. Chauncey Billups, I was in Boston going to all those games because my dad never wanted to go, Patino's first year. We traded him after 50 games in a Kenny Anderson trade. And I remember kind of liking the trade when it happened. I didn't know what Chauncey was. I couldn't tell if he was a point guard or a shooting

• 39:10Bill Simmons?

  guard or what he was. And he could go to the basket. He was a really good athlete. But I learned a valuable lesson from that, which is don't give up on young guards and especially young point guards because he bounced around. He went to Toronto, he went to Denver, went to Minnesota, and then finally ends up in Detroit. Detroit bets on the pedigree. And guess what? He becomes, you know, one of the better playoff players we had in the 2000s. Robert Parish is a good one for this. He was, I think, the sixth pick in the draft. Golden State kind of cooled off on him. And when Red Auerbach wanted McHale, ends up trading back from one to three and getting Robert Parish. So those are probably Wiggins, Gordon,

• 39:51Bill Simmons?

  Rasheed, Billups, Parish are five really good examples of this. A bet on the pedigree. And it makes you wonder when you're watching what's happened with Towns. Two lessons. One, do you look at a couple guys we have in the league now a little more closely? Like, I don't think Evan Mobley counts for this because Evan Mobley is already good. I think he's been on at least one All-NBA team. Cleveland made the Eastern Conference Finals. Like, he's a max guy. And I don't, I wouldn't put him in the Towns camp. Jabari Smith, Scoot Henderson.

• 40:26Bill Simmons?

  Not nearly, neither of them have had much success as Towns has had over the course of his career. Zion? Higher peak than Towns, but no playoff footprint at all and not as durable as Towns. Ja Morant.

• 40:44Bill Simmons?

  There's off the field, off the court stuff with Ja that I think, I don't think Towns had red flags like that. So maybe it's Zion. As somebody, because the thinking is when somebody hits their mid late twenties, do they mature? Do they round into something different than what we know now, right? So the case for Zion would be, well, what if he just became more mature and got in awesome shape and went to the right team and could be unleashed as this different kind of force?

• 41:15Bill Simmons?

  That's one lesson is, is, think about the pedigree. Are there other guys like this? The other one would be, don't overreact to a bad series. So in 24 against Dallas, Towns was awful. Like really awful. And when Towns was bad, he's bad, like Towns, people, a lot of people in my life, some people that have had pods for the Ringer or have left the Ringer, were just completely out on Towns. Towns in that series was 20 and eight, but he shot 38%, 24% from three. Dallas was fucking with him in all these different ways and it just felt like the dumb foul stuff was never going to end. And I remember after, after 3-0, I went and I actually found this text. I text, Minnesota's down 3-0 to Dallas in 24.

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  And I started texting House at halftime of game three, that Towns was going to be on the Wizards next year and House was really mad. It's like, stop it. That's not funny. It was like a lot of epithets from House.

• 42:13Bill Simmons?

  That's how bad it got for Towns. So when they traded for him, huge contract and we were just coming off the worst series of his career. Well, what happens?

• 42:25Bill Simmons?

  This playoffs he's unleashed. And I don't really fully have an explanation for it because I can't think of another example like this of somebody that I had already decided on as a player who then dug deep and completely surprised me in a completely different way. I got an email from Mike from Toronto. After game two, Charles Barkley said he was criticized in Minnesota, criticized in New York. Cat is the finals MVP. I actually think he might be the final. Now, there's two more games, but I think he would be the leader for me. Barkley said it was the best two games I've seen a big man play. That feels a little strong.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  Is this the greatest change of opinion about a player we have seen? It's a really good question because I think all of us had decided on Towns. And what we had decided is good stats, seems like a really nice guy, but is pretty flawed and is gonna have dumb fouls and do dumb things at the worst possible times. And that's just who he is as a player. Right? I decided that. So I was thinking about an actual change of opinion. There's got to be three, three qualities here. Has to be somebody we were really down on. Has to be somebody who is good enough to at least make it all NBA team or be in the mix in a conference finals or even a finals.

• 43:51Bill Simmons?

  It has to be somebody that either won a title or kind of came close. So that rules out Vince Carter because Vince Carter to me was the most disappointing player of the 2000s, just for what the potential was. But, you know, but the peak of his career was probably the losing the seven to Philly in round two. It wasn't ever like he got close. Chris Webber is a really good one. I thought Chris Webber was gonna be the best forward of the 1990s. And the timeout, I think, changed him in a bunch of different ways. And I, I don't even think that's an opinion. I, I think that kind of sapped him of something. And, you know, the Golden State thing got weird. He went to Washington and just was really disappointing. Right?

• 44:34Bill Simmons?

  And gets traded to Sacramento for an older Mitch Richmond. And at that point, it felt like a good flyer. Sure, Chris Webber, maybe. And then he turned into one of the best five guys in the league there. But they never even made the finals. And then the one that's probably the closest to this is Dirk. Post 2007. After they lose those six finals and then they lose to Golden State in the 07 playoffs. And eventually that leads to him doing the Australian trip. But I had just given up on Dirk being the best guy on a championship team. I didn't think it was possible. And then in 2011, he had one of the great resurgences slash rejuvenations in the history of the league. And blows through everybody.

• 45:19Bill Simmons?

  I think he beats the Lakers, he beats OKC. Maybe Memphis or San Antonio and then Miami in the finals. But just it was a murderer's row and he just went through it and demolished everybody. So Dirk is still the number one thing for this, but in Dirk's case, he'd won an MVP. He'd made the finals. He was one of the best players of the 2000s. Towns was never as good as Dirk. Dirk thing, the Towns thing. Towns becoming this cerebral, awesome, never has not made dumb plays at all. In the entire playoffs, like it's like, it's almost like,

• 46:00Bill Simmons?

  like if you changed your meds for a little kid or something like you had like a hyperactive little kid. And the little kid went on meds and just became a different kid. You'd be like, hey, what's different about that kid? Towns, it's like he's having like a, somebody changed his med series, even though I don't probably isn't on meds. But it's been so dramatic, I almost can't believe what I'm watching. That first half he played in game two was one of the best halves. I've seen best both end halves. I've seen a center play and I think the guys at halftime were totally red. I think Wemby was shook by it. He's like, I thought I was going to have a huge advantage of this guy. I went into this series thinking Towns was going to be the number one reason that they, that they were going to be in trouble for this series and it's been the opposite. So watching this Towns resurgence has been fantastic.

• 46:45Bill Simmons?

  A couple more emails and then we're going to get to Adam Freed then. Max V says, living in Manhattan, I can say this is the most excited I've seen this city.

• 46:55Bill Simmons?

  About a possible championship, people are going fucking nuts. The odds are obviously against it. But knock on wood, if the Knicks blow this series, not putting that out there, but he's, he wrote this as an email. If the Knicks blow this series. Would this be the biggest gut punch loss of the 21st century? All right, I thought about this.

• 47:15Bill Simmons?

  The formula would be, how long was the drought? How gigantic is your fanbase? And how egregious was the collapse?

• 47:23Bill Simmons?

  So, the 86 Red Sox is a great example of this. The Red Sox hadn't won in 66 years? Is that what it was? 68 years, 68 years, I can still do math. Red Sox hadn't lost in 68 years. 13 strikes to win the World Series and lost.

• 47:45Bill Simmons?

  And that was the biggest gut punch, I think, of the 21st century for a sports team and a fanbase. Years to recover. I think it was actually genuinely damaging for a whole generation of younger fans, including myself. The 94 Rangers are a good example of almost having this happen, but they didn't. Cause you forget, they're up 3-1 in the finals against Vancouver. They come home for game five. It's, it's almost like this Knicks series right now. Prices are through the roof. Everyone wants to be in the building for when they win. They blow game five at home. They lose game six in Vancouver. And now there's two days off before game seven. And I, I knew some Rangers fans and still do.

• 48:26Bill Simmons?

  That was an all time, people freaking the fuck out, 48 hour span. And then they end up eking out game seven and winning it. So it was all fine, but I would say if the Knicks blow this at this point,

• 48:41Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if it'd have a parallel this century. Because it's unlike the Falcons Patriots where it's 28-3, you blow a game in an hour and a half. This would be, you would have to blow this over a week and a half. And it would be an all time historic collapse. Cause nobody's ever won the first two on the road and then lost the finals, so.

• 49:05Bill Simmons?

  James from Brooklyn wants to know if Towns wins the title, would Minnesota fans be more bitter about trading away Cat or Garnett? And then he says, how long until Ant leaves for a title somewhere else? That was, that was me and James.

• 49:19Bill Simmons?

  I'd be more bitter about the Cat trade. Garnett wanted to leave, the team, the team should have traded him even two years before they did. And he had no chance to win a title there. And you had to trade him and you had to rebuild. That was the right move.

• 49:32Bill Simmons?

  The Cat thing really did seem more financial than anything and they had had success with him already. They just made the conference finals with them. I mentioned that was a tough series for him and for the team. But that to me was a financial trade. It was a chance to reset a year from now with new ownership and try to get Randall on a lower deal and just not have to pay in the 50s for Cat and Anthony Edwards at the same time. And I don't think a lot of teams would have made that trade. I think teams would have probably tried to suck it up with Towns for another year. It was a financial trade, but it was also a trade that happened because he sucked in the Dallas series. So I'd be a little more bitter about that one. Ricky wants to know with the way Cat is showing how the best antidote to Wemby is someone who

• 50:17Bill Simmons?

  could stretch him out to the three-point line and leverage their strength to get to the basket on offense. Can I introduce you to Joel Hans Embiid? Hans Embiid? Joel Hans Embiid? He's a longtime Sixers fan, by the way, this guy. He said in their matchups this far, Embiid is averaging a meager 38 and 11. He needs multiple, if not all athletic, high-level, long-wing defenders. A few West teams have just that. More to trade for Embiid. Is a savvy team in the West looking at what Cat's doing and thinking this might be a decent idea?

• 50:47Bill Simmons?

  I laughed at this when I read this and then I put some thought into it and I was actually wondering if if this might make sense for somebody. The problem is you go look at Embiid's contract and it's a catastrophe, but maybe a year from now, it's a possibility. Scotty in Phoenix wants to know, so everyone knows the Knicks haven't lost since April 23rd. Two days later, they start the win streak. It was also the same day poor Dante DiVincenzo tore his Achilles.

• 51:17Bill Simmons?

  Was that like a sacrifice to end the 53-year drought? Poor Dante. I do think they should have him at one of these games. It's, he got the rawest deal out of everybody, right? He's like, I thought we were all doing this Philadelphia thing. What happened? It is weird that he got hurt the same day of this. And then Kevin in Portland wants to know, if the Knicks want to guarantee their first championship in 53 years, Dolan needs to invite Oakley back for game three at MSG. Can you imagine how the crowd would react seeing him there? San Antonio wouldn't stand a chance.

• 51:49Bill Simmons?

  This would be a great, great, great. This would be like a pro wrestling moment. They hug at midcourt or they bring out Oakley. Almost like a wrestling entrance where like they play. I guess Oakley doesn't have music, but uh, this would be a pretty good idea. I think if the crowd had the choice between Oakley and Trump, they'd probably pick Oakley. All right, that's enough foreplay. We're gonna bring in Adam Freedland and things are about to get wacky. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off. Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with experiences that make you feel

• 52:33Bill Simmons?

  like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21 plus. Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes and details.

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• 53:43Bill Simmons?

  All right. So we banked this part of the podcast early afternoon, and this is take two. This is the first time I think this has happened since COVID, when we were having these audio issues. We did a whole, we did like 100 minutes this morning and

• 53:58Speaker 03

  I could have gone my entire life, Bill.

• 54:00Bill Simmons?

  It disappeared. It's ironic, Adam Friedland, because this was your first appearance on the pod. You were excited about it and somehow you brought like a black cloud with you and it vaporized the technology.

• 54:12Speaker 03

  Why are you blaming me?

• 54:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm blaming you.

• 54:14Speaker 03

  That was Belle, the producer here, said that was the greatest podcast. She, literally, she said the best podcast.

• 54:19Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna run it back. We're just doing it. We're doing it a second time.

• 54:22Speaker 03

  I was so sad. I text the boys. When I realized afterwards that this is what I've been preparing for my entire life. I didn't even know. We're just talking about ball with it. Listen.

• 54:33Bill Simmons?

  Well, here's the thing. Now that, now it's gone to history. The only, only like seven people know the magic of that first time we did it. And now we're just gonna redo it. It will be better, will be worse. The only ones that are gonna know are us.

• 54:46Speaker 03

  It'll be most certainly worse. But like on a sincere note, I grew up, my pod father ran out on our family.

• 54:52Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 54:53Speaker 03

  As a kid. And I felt like for 90 minutes, I'd found a pod.

• 54:58Bill Simmons?

  A real pod father?

• 54:59Speaker 03

  I won't tell him, I won't say his name. He's become, but his pod, his show, his podcast is called The Joe Rogan Experience. But I don't wanna, but he left us and he said it was my fault. And I was growing up, my biological pod father, of course, but, and I was like, you know, he's, he's not the step pod father. He's the pod father who stepped up.

• 55:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 03

  Bill Simmons. No, but I realized it was like, yeah, it was just, I was telling you at the beginning of the last one, but it's just so, it's so sick. You get to just do this for your job.

• 55:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So the first time we did this, which we're just gonna do again, you were interrogating me on what my life's like. We'll get to that in a second.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  Well, I opened with a comment about how beautiful your eyes were.

• 55:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I've said that.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Did you remember that?

• 55:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That got us off to a strange start.

• 55:42Speaker 03

  It's stunning.

• 55:43Bill Simmons?

  Um, listen.

• 55:45Bill Simmons?

  Important business first, The Adam Friedland Show is joining Spotify in July. You're relaunching your third season with us. So you're technically on the Ringer team, but more importantly, next month on The Adam Friedland Show, you're doing a special soccer podcast, a mini-series called The Beautiful Pod.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Okay, we are off to a disastrous start.

• 56:08Bill Simmons?

  I screwed this up.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  On Wednesday, we are starting, you said next month?

• 56:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, this month. Yeah, June. I meant this month, on Wednesday. Yeah.

• 56:19Speaker 03

  Yes, The Adam Friedland Show, we're going into pre-production on season three. When we return, we are now part of the Ringer something or other.

• 56:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Do you get classier ads? They do classy ads, right?

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  I think it's a win for everybody.

• 56:34Speaker 03

  I've been selling boner pills for 10 years.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, no more.

• 56:37Speaker 03

  I've been selling some disgusting offshore gambling scams and...

• 56:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, your boner pill days are over.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  I had the mayor, Mom Donnie, on the show, and we had a erectile dysfunction ad booked. So I was like, we gotta just, we gotta lead off with the, "Do you have trouble getting an erection?" Yes, but yeah, we're doing, we're gonna, what is it, Ringer, Spotify partner. The Adam Friedland Show is now Spotify partner, but beyond that, I am now, we're doing the World Cup coverage for the Ringer. I couldn't be more excited.

• 57:11Bill Simmons?

  And we loaned you C.R., Chris Ryan.

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Yes, you did. Well, I mean...

• 57:17Bill Simmons?

  It was like with soccer, they loan the players, right? They can do that for like a year. I just loaned my striker. I'm a second division team. I loaned my striker. I got relegated. We didn't get relegated, but we're loaning C.R. to you anyway.

• 57:28Speaker 03

  Well, you loan like a young guy that you want to get minutes to like a crappier team.

• 57:33Bill Simmons?

  The thing is, C.R. has the most minutes at the Ringer. I think he's on 17 podcasts, but he's adding 18.

• 57:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, you're like, we can't find space on the roster for this guy.

• 57:43Bill Simmons?

  This is like Messi. This is like Messi going to Miami.

• 57:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is where he's going to end his career on the beautiful pod. A Taft's original mini series. Yeah, so I, no, I genuinely, I'm so excited to talk just about sports instead of whatever the hell I do regularly. Actually, I really enjoy doing that and for the show, it's like pretty cool, but it'll be a nice change of pace. Um, but like, uh, now that I've like, yesterday I was like writing jokes for it all day and it's just, uh, I'm like, this is just what I should just be, this is what I wish I would do for the rest of my life.

• 58:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, come to the dark side, just waste your life talking about sports and getting paid for it.

• 58:24Speaker 03

  It's nicer.

• 58:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's really nice.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  You probably don't even know what a tariff is. You probably, your life is amazing.

• 58:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 58:29Speaker 03

  See, your life is incredible.

• 58:31Bill Simmons?

  Do we have a president or a prime minister here? I don't even know.

• 58:34Speaker 03

  I, I, I have regret to inform you that things are terrible right now.

• 58:39Bill Simmons?

  Well, we have that, one of the things I want to talk to you about was you're in New York City. Uh, you live in Brooklyn, but New York with the Knicks. Um, there's been a unifying thing happening in the city that all my friends are saying they've never experienced anything like this ever.

• 58:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, there, I, well, first off, New York's been, it's been difficult here with the, Mom Donnie's instituted Sharia law and then the Knicks have given us, I'm sorry. See, the first joke was funnier. What did I say? Oh yeah, this is antisemitic. You're like, how is New York?

• 59:08Bill Simmons?

  No, no, this is good.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  The antisemitism. I'm now remembering all the jokes and you can't tell them a second time. I said, they, Bill was like, how is it in New York right now? I was like, well, the antisemitism is rampant. And I know, but honestly, what's happening right now is like special. I've never lived in a, uh, but I've been here since 2014 and I was in DC before that, but I've never lived in a city that's just like going so hard for their, for their boys right now.

• 59:31Bill Simmons?

  Blue and orange everywhere, watch parties, people wearing homemade jerseys. Wesley Morris was talking about it. He's, he was delighted by this. He felt like, cause I remember in Boston in 2004 during the ALCS and then the, and then the World Series.

• 59:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:46Bill Simmons?

  It felt like the entire city just mobilized into this giant Red Sox machine and you could see it. It was like everywhere you went, you saw hats, jerseys, and it feels like New York's like that right now.

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, people are like out on the street. That's, that's the cool part about it. Like people are like just running outside, you have, like outside of your window, you hear people screaming and stuff. Fire, like people are lighting fireworks right now. It's like pretty cool.

• 1:00:09Bill Simmons?

  Hopefully benevolently.

• 1:00:12Speaker 03

  What do you mean bene- I mean fireworks are a good thing.

• 1:00:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they're mostly benevolent.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. People are doing crimes after every Nick. Yeah, crime is through the, no, uh, no, yeah, you're seeing fireworks. It's really just genuinely, I've, uh, it's really special. I mean, it's, New York should have a better basketball team, you know? They should be like a dynastic, like, uh, you know, it's New York, right? And it's, uh, I guess there was those Larry Johnson years in the nineties, but like, it's, it's like kind of wrong.

• 1:00:43Bill Simmons?

  You call them the Larry Johnson years? The Patrick Ewing years?

• 1:00:47Speaker 03

  No, I was saying the Greg Anthony years in the nineties. Yeah. The Anthony Mason years in the nineties.

• 1:00:52Bill Simmons?

  The John Stark years, right.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  I remember as a kid, it was just, I remember the fights. I remember the Heat, uh, Heat Knicks fights. And those were, that was really cool. But, uh, yeah, beyond that, I, you know, what was it? Seventy-eight was the last year?

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  No, that, I mean, they had good stretches. Yeah, seventy-three was the last title. Yeah. Good stretches in the eighties. Like, I think the Bernard King stretch before he got hurt was great.

• 1:01:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:16Bill Simmons?

  Couple, couple really good bumps in the nineties, like when they battled MJ the first time. The physical Knicks teams in the nineties. And then it just, the, ever since I got to ESPN, they're kind of died.

• 1:01:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:01:29Bill Simmons?

  When I, when I got there in two thousand and one, it was like they were relevant one playoff series. That was it. Yeah. That was in two thousand and thirteen. Yeah.

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Well, I guess that's even later.

• 1:01:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah. I guess I, they, yeah, I like, uh, uh, it's like going to the Garden is special, right? Like, it's, it is like a cathedral of the game, right?

• 1:01:48Bill Simmons?

  I would even admit that as a Celtic fan. I would.

• 1:01:50Speaker 03

  It feels special, right? I mean, you're not necessarily rivals even with, it's your rivals with us.

• 1:01:58Speaker 03

  Why do you live there? I'm not going to move to Boston. But beyond that, outside of that, outside of that, it's like the stadium where the, the star on the other team. Fair question. What you like, you have disgust for all the people.

• 1:02:12Bill Simmons?

  Well, when I grew up, I hated the Lakers and it, the moment I moved here, I was like, this is weird.

• 1:02:17Speaker 03

  It's nice, but it's nice.

• 1:02:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's really nice. The weather is pretty great.

• 1:02:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's nice. Anyway, but uh, yeah, it's the, it's the stadium where the star on the other team like has his 50 piece, right? It's like the stadium where Kobe like has his like, you know, like, like, uh, just takes bows, you know, like, it's like a, a place that brings out the best in the other teams, but it's cool. Even if they're out of playoff contention, it's the end of the year. So and someone does the half court shot at halftime, like everyone's, and he misses it. Everyone's like, go fuck yes out. Like it's, it's got an energy about it. And like the stadium is still sold out and it's uh, but it's like spilled outside to the streets. It's really incredible to see.

• 1:02:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's been a long time coming too. It got to the point where you started to wonder, is this ever going to happen again for this team between the mismanagement, the bad luck, some dumb contracts? And it really was like, it took COVID to really shake the, shake the Knicks out of it. Was it till post COVID, all of a sudden things got better.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  But there is something about like, yeah, Kat, I mean, I've just never seen him at this level. I went to the first round against the Hawks and I didn't see it. Like I genuinely didn't see it and uh, there was something like that was missing there. And I was like, what's the philosophy of this team? And then something clicked. I mean, when's the last time they lost? A month ago?

• 1:03:35Bill Simmons?

  More than that. Yeah, it was April, April 23rd.

• 1:03:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's been like remarkable. Like they've had these like, like this, as we were saying in our, the best podcast of all time, we're really, are we hitting it? Can I ask you a question?

• 1:03:48Bill Simmons?

  No, I think, I think we're very close.

• 1:03:49Speaker 03

  Every woman I've ever had sex with, how was that for you, Bill?

• 1:03:53Bill Simmons?

  I had a great time. I'm having a great time again.

• 1:03:55Speaker 03

  Uh, no, but uh, yeah, there is, there's something that clicked and like.

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  You know, like, uh, like, it's just, yeah, uh, I don't understand, like, Kat, I've never seen him at this level before. The stuff with the mom is like, made me cry. It's like, I lost my mother. Uh, there's just something special. And, uh, you were saying in the last show, but like, as they, seeing them collectively defend and deal with Wemby.

• 1:04:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  And like, and then seeing the level of the basketball, just in, in these finals, it's like, I just keep saying, this is such good basketball. And it's like, uh, it's been such a fun series. And then the guy that's about Darth Vader, that's in, in waiting about to take over the entire, like, league. For, he'll probably play 30 years. We'll probably be still waiting for him to get hurt.

• 1:04:41Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  We're like, oh, yeah, at that size.

• 1:04:42Bill Simmons?

  He's 52.

• 1:04:43Speaker 03

  He's 52 and he's unbeliev- yeah. But, uh, yeah.

• 1:04:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it never happened. It never happened to Kareem. So that would be the role model for Wemby.

• 1:04:51Speaker 03

  And he, he wasn't bulky too, right?

• 1:04:54Bill Simmons?

  No, he stayed, Kareem stayed skinnier. He did yoga and, and karate and all this stuff to kind of stay lumber and, and never really got hurt.

• 1:05:02Speaker 03

  Karate guy.

• 1:05:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. They're both karate guys.

• 1:05:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's, it's funny, the, um, I wrote, I had a bunch of, I had a bunch of people in my life. Cause I picked the Spurs to win the series and I had a bunch of people in my life who were like, this is crazy. You didn't pick the Knicks. Like, you wrote this whole basketball book and the premise was the secret of basketball and how it's not about basketball. And it's unselfishness and teamwork and fighting off the disease of war and putting your, putting the team ahead of the person. And, and I had multiple friends say this to me, like, how do you not see that this is what's happening with the Knicks? And I was just, I was in that mode of.

• 1:05:42Speaker 03

  Knicks.

• 1:05:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was the Knicks and I was also in that mode of, wow, it was Cleveland. It was Philly with like, breaking down Embiid. It was Atlanta with three players. Like, I just think San Antonio is a horrible matchup for you. And as it turned out, the Knicks are probably a horrible matchup for San Antonio as well.

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, uh, I guess Mitch has dealt with, uh, Wemby kind of maybe, maybe the best. Is that fair to say?

• 1:06:07Bill Simmons?

  And Towns has really taken it to him.

• 1:06:09Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:09Bill Simmons?

  So.

• 1:06:10Speaker 03

  I think, and also they're still just terrible when he's not playing. Like, it's, it's, it's remarkable what he's done at 22. And like, uh, yeah, we were talking before about like, uh, it, it's not a real sweep, right? Like, it, it feels series over, but like. It does also feel like anything could happen in this series.

• 1:06:28Bill Simmons?

  Well, we, game three is gonna be weird because Trump's going. It's gonna take two and a half hours to get in there. Right? And, and the game will probably be delayed. The game's already starting like eight forty, so it'll probably start closer to nine. And I always found like this happened in, in twenty-two with the Celtics. When they, for some reason, the games were starting at like nine, ten P M. Eastern time. And it definitely, the crowd got a little weird as it got later and later and just didn't have the same energies as it did in the beginning. So I'm gonna be interested to see, does the crowd peak too early? Is the Trump thing like this crazy wild card that, is the game like disjointed? Is the crowd disjointed? Or is it gonna be like the romantic version of it is?

• 1:07:14Bill Simmons?

  This is, you, this is the end of the Shawshank Redemption for the Knicks fans. This is two games of bliss. The crowd's incredible. The Spurs are scarred from what happened in game two and it's just a sweep. And I honestly don't know. I don't even know how to pick it.

• 1:07:28Speaker 03

  It's still, it's, it's like, you still, you just have seen this franchise like fuck up so many times. It's like, I'm an Arsenal fan. We, it'd been twenty-two years. And we'd like been in first place and then finished second for three straight years.

• 1:07:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  And this season, this season was terrifying, every match. Because of the prospect of finishing second a fourth, a fourth time. After, we were up nine points on the table, like, we almost fucked it for a fourth time. I don't know how we would have been able to, to manage it. And like, I also, like, none of us believed that it could ever happen too. Like, I'm sure, like, a lot of Knicks fans are too. Yeah, I mean.

• 1:08:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, there was this moment, I talked about in the first segment of the pod, the Rangers in ninety-four, when they had a one in fifty-four years. And they took a three-one lead heading into game five. And game five was in New York.

• 1:08:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:08:18Bill Simmons?

  And everybody's like, oh, my God, I gotta be there when they win the cup. And then they lost. Then they lost game six. And people were just, it was the, every Knicks fan or every New York fan I knew is that it was the most horrifying. Like, four days, but then they end up winning game seven.

• 1:08:33Speaker 03

  I felt like I had a nightmare scheduled. I'm like, yeah, tomorrow at three, I'm gonna watch a nightmare. I'm just like so scared about it. It's like, and it's, I have to watch.

• 1:08:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  A question for you, like. Bloody soccer was like, it must have been.

• 1:08:48Bill Simmons?

  Oh, four.

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, it must have been the most incredible thing that you've ever seen in sports, right?

• 1:08:53Bill Simmons?

  The beating, the four days in a row against the Yankees is my highlight as a sports fan.

• 1:08:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, that series was unreal, but like, but it meant more, right? Cause of, cause of the curse, right?

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, this is, this is the, it's the losing virginity as a sports fan of, it's the only way you can do it. When you've had a drought for this long and then all these great things happen. And it's never going to be as good as the first time, it's just not.

• 1:09:17Speaker 03

  Like, how do you like, but you're like, as a Pats fan, like, how did you like, keep getting boners? Like, you know, like what I'm saying? It has to like not diminish.

• 1:09:24Bill Simmons?

  I took those ED drugs you did on the, I took the sports ED drugs.

• 1:09:28Speaker 03

  Promo code, promo code if you add them.

• 1:09:29Bill Simmons?

  Promo code Tom Brady.

• 1:09:30Speaker 03

  Adam four twenty.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  No, but I'm saying like, does it, it diminishes in, in its like excitement? Or you, or Boston guys just like, if we don't win, it's just a.

• 1:09:40Bill Simmons?

  No, the Pats thing was great because we went from, we were basically like if the Jets had won the Super Bowl, right? We were like, black sheep losers.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  Child, he was a backup too, right?

• 1:09:49Bill Simmons?

  It was so improbable, it was right after nine 11, so there's a patriotic thing. So I think people are rooting with us, but by the third one.

• 1:09:55Speaker 03

  What do you mean it was nine, right after nine 11 because they were named the Patriots?

• 1:09:57Bill Simmons?

  Well, it was, you know, that beautiful day, you two at the Super Bowl halftime show, there was like, very American Super Bowl.

• 1:10:05Speaker 03

  You, it was because you're named the Patriots, they did it for nine 11?

• 1:10:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah, it was part of it. Remember the U two halftime show? Where the streets have no name with all the nine 11 names is emotional.

• 1:10:17Speaker 03

  I remember the Janet Jackson halftime show for.

• 1:10:18Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's when it probably turned, then the third one, everyone got tired of us, we became Duke. And then Spygate happened and we were villains.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  The best was Prince in the rain in Miami, do you remember that, doing purple rain? Anyway, what you were saying, but like it.

• 1:10:33Bill Simmons?

  America turned on us, which actually was great because then we, all we had was each other, the other Pats fans was galvanizing. Then we had, then we were like rejuvenated.

• 1:10:42Speaker 03

  It's what we were talking about with Kobe, it's like you, you're heaped with praise and then, yeah, that's dark, right? Brady was like this backup, right? And it was like a romantic thing. And then like eventually we're like, fuck those guys, they win all the time.

• 1:10:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, there's different kinds of titles you win where like that one, nobody ever, they were two touchdown underdogs in the Super Bowl. And I think they were like 13 point underdogs in the AFC title game. The next one's a little different because it came late. But it's not, people, once we got to the finals, I think the Spurs were favored, but I knew a lot of people that thought the Knicks were gonna win. And I think it's not like shocking that they're winning, you know, I think.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  I had no idea how to call it. I just didn't know.

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  Cause you don't know, cause you got the best guy in one team's 22.

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  Yeah. He's 22, but he's that. He's in, I don't know what that is.

• 1:11:29Bill Simmons?

  Maybe not. He threw the game deciding pass off his teammate's back, so.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  Well, he's 22.

• 1:11:34Bill Simmons?

  He's 22. And his teammate was 21 and he threw the pass.

• 1:11:38Speaker 03

  They're incredible when he's playing and they stink when he's, when he's not. I mean, they stunk last year. How, how many wins did they have last year?

• 1:11:46Bill Simmons?

  Who did? The Spurs. Well, Wemby didn't play half the year.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  I know. They, the turnaround is like, uh, is it the, the biggest turnaround ever?

• 1:11:54Bill Simmons?

  It's one of them. The set, the first Birds Celtic year, they gained like 31 wins, I think from the year before.

• 1:12:00Speaker 03

  This has to be more. Oh, really? It is?

• 1:12:03Bill Simmons?

  I asked you, um, cause you live in Brooklyn. We gotta stop saying that we talked about this last time, cause nobody heard the other time.

• 1:12:09Speaker 03

  I know, but it breaks my heart.

• 1:12:10Bill Simmons?

  I know, it's fine. It's dead.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Because you already heard it. Are you, you have to fake laugh?

• 1:12:13Bill Simmons?

  No, I haven't fake laughed once.

• 1:12:15Speaker 03

  I know, I'm just kidding. We're playing off the.

• 1:12:18Bill Simmons?

  You live in Brooklyn, you live near Barclays, and I was asking you, with what you've seen from the Knicks and how this city rallied around the Knicks. If you're the Nets, like.

• 1:12:28Speaker 03

  Prudential Center, Newark. We're going home.

• 1:12:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. What's the Wednesday meeting like where Joe size like, hey, man, we have to figure out like the Liberty are more popular than us at Barclays. The Knicks have 99.9% of the NBA fans. What's, what's our plan? We can't keep this going.

• 1:12:45Speaker 03

  I mean, he had to have known already, right?

• 1:12:47Bill Simmons?

  No, this, this is worse than he ever could have imagined, I think.

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  The atmosphere at any home game is, and they play like, they play every game as like kind of a road game for the, for the, for the players on the Nets. It's tough. I feel bad for them.

• 1:13:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:00Speaker 03

  The one, the last year, and it's a, I still think about Kyrie and Durant being on the same team and how cool that was and we never got to, it was a toe, right?

• 1:13:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:09Speaker 03

  And then it was over. And, uh, that was the, that, I was at the, uh, the game one, the blowout against Yanis. And that was like, uh, there was something like happening and it was exciting, but it just, since then, it's kind of, the toe is kind of the end, right?

• 1:13:25Bill Simmons?

  There's no question. It's the before and after.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  The potential of those two guys being on the same team, though, at that stage in both their careers. It was like, it's such a what if for me still.

• 1:13:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, it wasn't just that they were on the same team. They, the Knicks also wanted the two guys and they chose Brooklyn over the Knicks, which had happened repeatedly. Like Durant didn't want to go there to the Knicks in 16. LeBron turned them down famously in 2010. Like, they weren't even a choice for people and I think that's what's changed.

• 1:13:54Speaker 03

  They made a Sopranos video for him.

• 1:13:55Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  You saw that, right?

• 1:13:56Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. But I think what's changed, regardless of whether they win the title or not, and they're big favorites now, but they're now a destination again, I think, for players, which was just not the case for 20 years, you know?

• 1:14:09Speaker 03

  It's crazy. I, I almost forgot that they chose the Nets over the Knicks. That's how toxic that brand was.

• 1:14:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:16Speaker 03

  It's insane. It feels like, how is that possible even? You're right? Like, uh, but yeah, it was a better situation over there. And like, uh, yeah, it's such a what if, because Kyrie just does the impossible and makes it look easy for him. And then, everything that Durant does looks easy, but it's really hard to do what he's doing. Like, they're like the opposites. Like Durant is just making everything look effortless. Kyrie's making everything look so insanely hard and he's somehow doing it. And it's like the combination of those two, like, like offensives, like savants, like on the same team. It's just, it really bums me out. I was like, I wish we got to see more of it, but, uh.

• 1:14:53Bill Simmons?

  And Harden got hurt the one time he actually cared about that team. Your favorite player ever is Kobe?

• 1:14:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, so what? Oh, yeah, you guys missed it.

• 1:15:01Bill Simmons?

  There was a question. No, there, no, nobody missed it. This is the first time they're ever hearing it.

• 1:15:05Speaker 03

  Bill gave me a full-throated apology for his mistreatment of Mr. Kobe Britt. No, no, no.

• 1:15:09Bill Simmons?

  I just said I was late to the party of appreciating how good he was.

• 1:15:13Speaker 03

  I know, you were, you were. But something about you is like, I've always been like, how dare he say that about Kobe? But then I'd be like, if I was Bill, I would be rocking with my boys in the same way. There was always like this, do you, do you think you were like the first to disclose your allegiances in media? Sorry, I asked you a question back. Sorry, I did the thing where I interview you back. Well, it was kind of a new thing.

• 1:15:34Bill Simmons?

  Definitely was a new thing because when I, when I came up, when I was writing for ESPN,

• 1:15:40Bill Simmons?

  and I was writing from like the sports fan perspective, it was basically just newspaper columnist and that's it. Everybody is supposed to be very down the middle and you weren't supposed to have favorite teams. And I always felt like the, the people that I enjoyed reading, I always felt like were fans of the sport or the team and like I talked about it, this William Goldman book that I loved called Wait Till Next Year, where he wrote from the perspective of the New York fan. I was like, that's, that's kind of how I want to write my column. Now it's, now it's pretty common.

• 1:16:09Speaker 03

  It's also bullshit. Like you would have to be like right down the middle. Like you could, if you love your team and you love your guys, like you should rather just be honest with it. And so people can see where you're coming from, right?

• 1:16:19Bill Simmons?

  I think it's different if you're, if you're like Brian Windhorst and you're in locker rooms and you're

• 1:16:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:25Bill Simmons?

  talking about it in a different way. I think it'd be tougher to be like, I'm also a giant Cavs fan.

• 1:16:30Speaker 03

  But you love, he loved Lebron, right?

• 1:16:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't think he loved him, but he covered him forever.

• 1:16:36Speaker 03

  I asked Nick, I asked Nick Wright, I said, uh, when they had that, the, the Wemby LeBron thing, I was like, did you say to yourself, uh, and then there was one?

• 1:16:50Bill Simmons?

  What'd he say?

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  He left, he left.

• 1:16:53Bill Simmons?

  That was it?

• 1:16:53Speaker 03

  He said, Wendy, he's like, Wendy's a great guy. It was diplomatic. Yeah. But, uh,

• 1:16:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but it's definitely different now. I think it's, and it's basically because there's way more media, there's way more opinions. There's all kinds of ways to get, um, to become noticed and build like at least a small level of fans. So there's, there's no one method now. In, in the 2000s, there really was only one method.

• 1:17:18Speaker 03

  I think it's kind of a trailblazer kind of thing. Not to, I'm not, I, listen, you were, I have no respect for you. You were very unfair to Kobe. No, no, but I mean it. I think you kind of changed things. Like I, I don't know, we didn't know where Walter Cronkite's like allegiances. I mean, not saying that you're do, you're doing more of like a, you were just a writer about sports from a perspective of a fan, I guess, right?

• 1:17:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:39Speaker 03

  Like I was reading the, I remember the article in two thousand two. I read it like when I was in high school, uh, the nine eleven one.

• 1:17:46Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was like, this is good, this is. Do you think, do you remember back to that? I'm asking you questions now, this is bullshit. I, you, you, I don't want to do that, uh, but, uh, yeah. Do you remember like, did that feel like a seminal kind of like moment for you? Or was it just another?

• 1:18:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't, I remember not being happy with what I wrote, but feeling like I had to write something. But the bigger thing is, I remember.

• 1:18:07Speaker 03

  Beautiful.

• 1:18:08Bill Simmons?

  I remember wondering like if I was still gonna have a job. Like I, I didn't, nine eleven was, was so horrible and, and so impactful to everybody. Even people, you know, that had, didn't know one person that died there. But it felt like just everything was gonna be different from that point on. I'd never experienced that before. So I was like, well, nobody's gonna wanna read about sports and, you know, fucking bad takes on movies. And then I remember at some point, um, everybody just started to be like, alright, I gotta do my job again. And I remember within like a week, I went to go see Hardball with Keanu Reeves with my buddy Jacko.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  The best.

• 1:18:48Bill Simmons?

  And we, and I wrote a column about it. And I was just like, this is my job, like.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  You have the coolest job.

• 1:18:56Bill Simmons?

  This is, like, maybe people read this and it'll take their mind off shit for ten minutes. But I think that was, that's the only time in my life I ever remember America like that. Where, um, where everybody was kinda like, what do we do? Like, are we all going to work tomorrow? And then you kinda figure it out.

• 1:19:14Speaker 03

  You just got me really afraid because I've had to, you know, I'm recording the World Trade Center right now. I was scared enough as it is the first time.

• 1:19:23Bill Simmons?

  It's.

• 1:19:24Speaker 03

  That would be a fool me, shame on me situation. No, I'm.

• 1:19:26Bill Simmons?

  It's weird to go there and not think about it though. Like, yeah, because the Spotify offices are there, that's where you are now and you go and.

• 1:19:33Speaker 03

  When you read the word on the text, this is where I have to go, I'm like, really?

• 1:19:37Bill Simmons?

  And this was twenty five years ago.

• 1:19:39Speaker 03

  Yes, it was so long.

• 1:19:40Bill Simmons?

  So you grew up in, you grew up in California.

• 1:19:44Speaker 03

  I grew up in Vegas, yeah.

• 1:19:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  But I'm an LA sports fan, yeah.

• 1:19:48Bill Simmons?

  But you weren't in, you, you hadn't, you didn't get to New York until the mid 2010, so you, you weren't there.

• 1:19:52Speaker 03

  Right, right. I wasn't there. But I remember in high school, I was a freshman and I was like a, I was like a know-it-all asshole. And I was like, uh, actually, it's probably the Al Qaeda network of terror because they recently did an attack on the USS Cole. Someone was like, shut up. I was like, sorry. I was like, I was, looking back on it, like, everyone likes politics now. And it was, it used to be like something that if you liked it, you were a loser. And I think it kind of should go back to that. Right? I think too many people are obsessed with politics now. I got made fun of for it and as well I should have, right? And, uh, uh, but it's, it's weird to see that nowadays. But, uh, yeah, no, I, I wasn't here for that.

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  But, uh, yeah, I was born in LA. I'm an LA sports fan because my dad immigrated, uh, in 81 to LA. And he got into American sports, uh, to have something to like share with his kids. My, my dad was at the Gibson game.

• 1:20:48Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:20:49Speaker 03

  In 88. How amazing is that? I was a baby, yeah.

• 1:20:52Bill Simmons?

  More amazing that he stayed. Cause you go to Dodger games and people get the F out of there, but before the ninth inning. It's really like you're making a choice. It's like if you stay, it's an extra two hours.

• 1:21:03Speaker 03

  It's the world's here. I mean, yeah, it's true.

• 1:21:04Bill Simmons?

  No, you'd be surprised because I went to the 18 inning game in October and ha, and I was surprised how many people left.

• 1:21:11Speaker 03

  My, my friend, my friend was there, yeah. And he said that it was weird. He said the ball wasn't carrying because there was like the, there was like a high pressure system or something. There was like an insane like vibe there. It must've been agony to be sitting there for, for hours and hours.

• 1:21:25Bill Simmons?

  I loved it. No, I, I, I really had a good, we had great seats, but I really had a good time.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Serving beer?

• 1:21:30Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. They stopped serving everything.

• 1:21:33Speaker 03

  You just, I mean, if I had another beer, I'd be fine. I'd be like, can you guys open it back up? We're gonna be here another, yeah, nine innings of, of extra innings.

• 1:21:41Bill Simmons?

  What you said was the key thing because I forget, somebody had. Would just clearly seem like it was gonna be a homer and the thing just died and we were like, are we ever leaving?

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  There were so many warning track shots. I remember, yeah.

• 1:21:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:52Speaker 03

  I was like, I was a big Dodger fan initially, but then, yeah, I guess my team's now Lakers and Arsenal. And I, I, I watched like soccer a lot now, which is the, I was, as I was saying in the last podcast, the, the worst kind of American you could be. It, it's like something that's, I, I shouldn't, it, it does feel lame. Um, to be an American soccer fan.

• 1:22:13Bill Simmons?

  I just think of because America, because we haven't really had a truly great player. Because the team in the World Cup, the, the whole World Cup, our chances feel like we're in a worse spot than we were 15 years ago, even though everyone I know who likes soccer insists that we have the most talent we've ever had. It's just that everybody has more talent. I don't know what's

• 1:22:34Speaker 03

  They have no swag.

• 1:22:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's not one.

• 1:22:36Speaker 03

  They have no swag.

• 1:22:37Bill Simmons?

  They don't have that one dude that like a nine-year-old kid would be like, I want to wear that guy's jersey. Maybe it'll happen in the World Cup though.

• 1:22:44Speaker 03

  The center back, Tim Ream, I saw on my Instagram algorithm, he was like doing advocacy for, he said, when I was a kid, I wet my bed. And then he's like, one in five kids wet the bed. I'm like, that's before the cup. Not before the World Cup. Don't do bed wetting advocacy. It's like, come on. Do a, do a cigarette commercial. I don't even know if they make those anymore. Do it, do beer. Come on, make us look cool.

• 1:23:07Bill Simmons?

  Who would be, if he was, if he was in our country, who would be the coolest? Like, who would be the guy that actually owns soccer for America?

• 1:23:16Speaker 03

  What, out of any player?

• 1:23:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, if that person, they just happen to be American. No, Messi's too old now. It'd have to be somebody younger.

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  Someone younger, someone cool? I don't know. I mean, it has, Messi's, uh, you, you, you register that it's the best, it's the best we've ever seen, ever.

• 1:23:33Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'm aware. I was there for the-

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  He's like twice as good as Ronaldo. And he still might cook this time around. It's, it's weird.

• 1:23:40Bill Simmons?

  How old is he now? Is he 40 yet?

• 1:23:43Speaker 03

  Uh, I think.

• 1:23:44Bill Simmons?

  Late, late 30s, somewhere in there. Yeah.

• 1:23:47Speaker 03

  He's kind of hurt. He doesn't have to, uh, go back on defense. He gets to just walk around and then, uh, there's this, so there's this thing that happens inside of him. And then, uh, it'll be like 12 seconds of chaos. And then, uh, it'll be in the back of the net. He's, you know, he, he's like a bizarre guy. He, I, I think he didn't speak until he was like 11. There's something like, he was just given by God for this one purpose. And that, and, uh, uh, but no, I mean, who would be cool to be American? I don't, I don't know. Uh, I don't know. It would be cool if American athletes were, play, played soccer. Like I, I speculated on that. It's like speculating what would if, if LeBron played tight end or something like, or like, uh, I don't know.

• 1:24:31Speaker 03

  Thinking about like our best athletes, like if Kyrie played soccer, I mean, I would imagine he'd be like one of the best.

• 1:24:37Bill Simmons?

  Kyrie's a great one. I always thought Iverson was my favorite one for this game. Cause even there's high school football footage of Iverson where it's like, he's incredible and it's just like any sport that he played, he just would have been incredible.

• 1:24:50Speaker 03

  It's my favorite YouTube, just watching.

• 1:24:52Bill Simmons?

  Iverson.

• 1:24:52Speaker 03

  What do you think? Do you think he would have been like top five football player of all time? Was he like Dion? What, what do you think he would have projected as?

• 1:25:00Bill Simmons?

  I think he would have been like, I think he would have been like, almost like what we want Travis Hunter to be, except he just would have been at a whole other level athletically. Travis Hunter's an awesome athlete. Like he just would have been like a running back receiver type of person, I think.

• 1:25:14Speaker 03

  Well, he was like a, an option quarterback as well, right? But I guess everyone's a quarterback in high school, like a.

• 1:25:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you could tell his, his throwing motion was a little.

• 1:25:23Speaker 03

  But he had a, he had a big arm though.

• 1:25:25Bill Simmons?

  He did, but it wasn't like the mechanics were off, but then when he took off, he would just run through people. It was like when the gym teacher gets to play with the fifth grade class and he's just dusting everyone. Yeah.

• 1:25:36Speaker 03

  Oh, it's, it's, I, I watched that video all the time. I also watched, there's a video I really like of Derrick Rose doing, uh, Chicago footwork. When he was like the dance battle against someone in high school. And he's an unbelievable, yeah. If a guy like Derrick Rose played, played soccer, I mean, it'd be, yeah.

• 1:25:52Bill Simmons?

  Conversely, Randy Moss playing basketball was great. Like there's some guys who are just like the greatest athletes we've ever produced.

• 1:25:57Speaker 03

  White chocolate.

• 1:25:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  They were on, it's the same team with white chocolate, right?

• 1:26:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:01Speaker 03

  Unreal. Yeah. There was that, that, uh, that commercial. Do you remember the Nike commercial? Just a good old boy. Yeah. I love that shit.

• 1:26:08Bill Simmons?

  I think Kyrie would have been interesting, cause. You know, he's basically ambidextrous, right? He does everything. So he would have been able to kick perfectly with both feet. His footwork and everything would have been great. I don't know, like.

• 1:26:21Speaker 03

  It's his center of gravity, too. Like, he gets in these weird angles.

• 1:26:25Bill Simmons?

  He's 6'3", though? Like, who's the best 6'3" soccer player?

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  So many, Bill, so many.

• 1:26:29Bill Simmons?

  All right.

• 1:26:29Speaker 03

  There's so many, yeah. I mean, like, Zlatan is doing, Zlatan's 6'5", I think, right?

• 1:26:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:34Speaker 03

  I mean, there's, what's cool is that you could be 5'5", 5'6" and be the best in the world.

• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's why Soak was 5'10".

• 1:26:43Speaker 03

  You could be 6', you could be 6'4" and be the best in the world. Like, uh, uh, yeah, they've had guys that are, uh, like, close to seven footers. And, I mean, Peter Crouch was amazing. Uh, and he was technically gifted, too. He wasn't just doing headers. He like, he could use his feet, but, uh.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  You know who would be amazing?

• 1:27:04Speaker 03

  Who?

• 1:27:05Bill Simmons?

  Uh, as like a sweeper slash a six, um, Castle.

• 1:27:11Speaker 03

  Oh, my God.

• 1:27:12Bill Simmons?

  Like, that's like.

• 1:27:12Speaker 03

  He's a dog.

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  He's absolute maniac, super physical, like, 10 out of 10 athlete and relentless. And if you just put him at the six, he would have been out of control.

• 1:27:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that, yeah, thinking of like, uh, like, uh, like, uh, I guess a free safety or a, or like a linebacker playing like in the back line. Like, think of guys like that. I mean, I don't know.

• 1:27:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:36Speaker 03

  It's, it's actually, we, that's the disappointment is that it's just, uh, I guess, I guess we haven't been able to sell it yet. You were saying in 2002, we thought that it was like a moment where we could sell it. But, um, we don't like.

• 1:27:47Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was coming, because it started in 94. That was like the first real moment where we're like, oh, maybe. And then, um, yeah, the '02 World Cup, that was when my first year at ESPN, like, writing columns and it felt like people cared. And, um, 2014 was another one when it felt like.

• 1:28:03Speaker 03

  That was the year we lost to Portugal, right? I liked the land of Donovan Dempsey years.

• 1:28:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, 2010.

• 1:28:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, we had, there was a spirit about them, yeah.

• 1:28:10Bill Simmons?

  And it felt, there was a moment when Josie felt like he was gonna be the next guy. And it felt like we actually had older guys and younger guys and guys on the way up. And then all of a sudden, we were not qualifying for the World Cup and wondering what happened.

• 1:28:21Speaker 03

  A good subplot in the World Cup this year is the Canadian coach, Burrhalter, was our coach.

• 1:28:27Bill Simmons?

  I remember.

• 1:28:28Speaker 03

  He is just talking shit. He said that it's, what it is is the Athletic, like, association. He said the US soccer is, is, has an issue. It's, it's structural, he said. And, but he's also just running his damn mouth, which is a kind of a cool subplot because we're co-hosts in this World Cup. But, yeah, I just don't, I don't know, maybe I'm completely wrong. There are people that disagree with me, but I, I'd see, I'd see them underachieving. There's always a bump by being a host nation, though. But, it's like, it's weird. It's like, are you seeing where they're doing their, where they're doing the, like, training camps, like, base camps?

• 1:29:07Bill Simmons?

  Where?

• 1:29:08Speaker 03

  Oh, it's amazing. They have a, well, they have, like Bosnia and Herzegovina is in Salt Lake City. They have Ivory Coast in Philly, which is sick. Just imagining that is sick. Yeah. Qatar, Santa Barbara. I'm pretty sure they got the nice, they, they bought the nicest place, obviously. Um, there's so many, I, I have a list. Um, there's one that was just killing me. Uh, now it's bad podcasting, but I gotta find it, but.

• 1:29:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, this is, I thought you were a better podcaster than this. I'm sorry.

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  I'm sorry, dude. I didn't have this prepared.

• 1:29:40Bill Simmons?

  Can I ask you a question about the Canada co-host thing?

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:29:43Bill Simmons?

  Is this like in college, you're having a party at the main house and you're having it with somebody else, but it's kind of, their house is over there and more people are in the big house? Or are they an actual co-host? Are they an actual co-host or are they kind of glomming on to us?

• 1:29:58Speaker 03

  Uh, which, Canada?

• 1:29:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:00Speaker 03

  Um, I think that they have hate in their gut and I think that Mexico is a, is a, is a mess right now. Mexico, I think, I see them completely, I, honestly, one of my spiciness is that as Mexico crashes out of the group stage. Because their fanbase is toxic, right? They don't have any players that like have any pedigree and play, play in Europe. They, they act like they're Real Madrid and they have, they've never won shit. They lose to America now. They should be ashamed of themselves. And Canada has this like resentment that comes from their coach.

• 1:30:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:30Speaker 03

  We have like this pressure of like, it's kind of America's World Cup still, right? What is it in Vancouver and Toronto? It's like two places, right? Like, uh, it doesn't, I think it, we're the main show here.

• 1:30:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  And I, I think it's the most.

• 1:30:42Bill Simmons?

  Don't forget Canada, it's our show.

• 1:30:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is kind of our, but there's, uh, man, I feel really bad, but it's gonna be worth it.

• 1:30:49Bill Simmons?

  No, we're gonna.

• 1:30:50Speaker 03

  There's one that is just so, uh, wait, there's one that is so funny. They have.

• 1:30:55Bill Simmons?

  So you liked.

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  Right. They have Portugal, Portugal is in Palm Beach, which is like Cristiano is definitely gonna go Mar-a-Lago. For sure.

• 1:31:04Speaker 03

  Argentina, this is real. Argentina is in Kansas City, right? In the summer. So apologies to Nick Wright, that sounds like shit. And like, there, literally there was a tornado warning first day they were there. But like Messi is just like standing silently and still in the middle of a tornado. They're like, it takes also, there's another aspect of like in Europe, the stadiums are closer to the metropolitan areas. So like, you have the fans like kind of marching towards the stadium, kind of like how MSG is, like it's in the middle of the city. And, um, yeah, like going like three hours to, to fucking MetLife. Like, it's just like, you don't have that same atmosphere like around the stadium and stuff. And it's, uh, also I'm like a little bit worried, I'm not gonna, whatever. You know they banned water bottles? That's the other funny thing.

• 1:31:48Bill Simmons?

  Can I?

• 1:31:48Speaker 03

  FIFA just banned water bottles.

• 1:31:50Bill Simmons?

  Can I say something?

• 1:31:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, what? Is this off the record?

• 1:31:53Bill Simmons?

  Don't ever apologize to Nick Wright, not on this podcast.

• 1:31:56Speaker 03

  All right, whatever dude.

• 1:31:57Bill Simmons?

  Screw that guy.

• 1:31:58Speaker 03

  He's sucking up to fucking LeBron. No, no, I'm just kidding, uh.

• 1:32:01Bill Simmons?

  No, we like Nick Wright.

• 1:32:03Speaker 03

  We like Nick Wright.

• 1:32:03Bill Simmons?

  They banned water bottles?

• 1:32:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. FIFA's not letting them bring in water bottles, so they have to buy water. It's like, the ticket prices are really expensive. I mean, what's going to happen is this, we're gonna say, and I'm doing a podcast about it. We're gonna say like, oh, guys, like. It's it's too many teams as well. That's the other issue. They like expanded the field. There's no groups of death where like a big team doesn't qualify because they want the big teams the in the group stages.

• 1:32:29Bill Simmons?

  I hate that. I love the groups of death.

• 1:32:31Speaker 03

  I love seeing like Germany crash out in like of the groups. It's like it's really and it makes it exciting from the beginning.

• 1:32:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:37Speaker 03

  And but something is going to happen and we that the world is going to explode is like met. There's a high probability we're going to see Messi and Ronaldo in a knockout, right? And I don't know if I can handle it. Like it's it's really just like he has to lose. Ronaldo has to lose. I can't see he's going to be so self satisfied and spoke about it, but he he has a better team.

• 1:33:04Speaker 03

  Also, there's just like, yeah, I was telling you before the like element of Iran being here in the middle of a war. And then potentially if they get second place and the US getting second place in the groups, they play in Dallas. You know, I is it on the 4th of July or is it not?

• 1:33:17Bill Simmons?

  I thought it was it was in the vicinity of it. Yeah, they would play America. And by the way, America getting second place is conceivable. Like that's. They're probably even favored.

• 1:33:28Speaker 03

  Turkey are flop artists also. I'm not as afraid as Turkey as as people are giving them credit for. People like are always like, oh, Turkey has something and they always them and Belgium. They're just like chronic underachievers and Egypt during most all has been the same way. Like they're all in the cup and like I think they all kind of.

• 1:33:48Bill Simmons?

  Are you?

• 1:33:49Speaker 03

  Stinkers.

• 1:33:50Bill Simmons?

  Are you gonna try to go to a game or you don't care if you go?

• 1:33:52Speaker 03

  I'm going to Norway, Senegal.

• 1:33:54Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:33:55Speaker 03

  I'm only going if it's free, Bill. I'm not going.

• 1:33:58Bill Simmons?

  If you're invited. I'm only going if I'm invited.

• 1:34:00Speaker 03

  It's a hundred thousand dollars for what?

• 1:34:02Bill Simmons?

  It's less than the game four Knicks tickets.

• 1:34:05Speaker 03

  Well, that's.

• 1:34:07Bill Simmons?

  The game four, if the Knicks win game three, game four Knicks ticket will become the hardest sports ticket of all time. Because unlike football or baseball, it's it's 20,000 seats total.

• 1:34:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's it's it is really, we were saying before, but it's cra- I'm gonna stop saying that. It is crazy to conceive of where Trump is gonna be sitting. Like, if he's courtside and we're like, we're just watching it the whole time. Like, I bet, it's gonna be distracting for a viewer. He's just like, sitting there, like, it's a, I imagine he's gonna be in a box of some sort.

• 1:34:36Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I'd, see, I completely disagree. I think he's gonna absolutely be courtside.

• 1:34:40Speaker 03

  Imagine like, his Secret Service guy standing in front of Timothy Chalamet.

• 1:34:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's gonna be like when Floyd Mayweather goes, when he, Floyd Mayweather sat courtside, they would have his security guards would be behind him.

• 1:34:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Bill Simmons?

  And so I guess that would happen.

• 1:34:52Speaker 03

  Timo can't watch the game, his girlfriend.

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, the funny, the thing I was thinking, if he's courtside. You know, the way Trump sits, cuz he doesn't cross his legs, and he sits with his legs out, with his, with his, doing the...

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  With the diamond, the diamond, the this, yeah.

• 1:35:09Bill Simmons?

  But on courtside, the seats are like this, and you can't spread your legs out at all like that.

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  It's like the subway.

• 1:35:15Bill Simmons?

  Whoever's on either side of him is gonna be miserable the entire game, cuz Trump's gonna take up three seats.

• 1:35:20Speaker 03

  Kendall Jenner is gonna be like, smushed.

• 1:35:24Bill Simmons?

  That's the other thing, there's, you know, courtside, you're walking by people, there's handshakes, there's gonna be people who aren't gonna want the handshake.

• 1:35:31Speaker 03

  It's gonna be, yeah.

• 1:35:31Bill Simmons?

  And everybody filming it, so if you do the handshake, it's on film, you know.

• 1:35:36Speaker 03

  I just, we, I just don't, the thing that's nice about sports is, we don't have to deal with politics. It's like, it's like a crazy time right now, it's like, ugh, there was like a Jewish, there's like this player that could, we don't, named Max Dowman for Arsenal.

• 1:35:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:51Speaker 03

  And I was like, I was like, I was like, I told my friend, I was like, just look up if he's Jewish, it would be huge, he's, he's up next, right? I was like, can you imagine, like, if, if we, if we get one? Cuz for us, it's just insane if we get one, right? And, uh, and then I like, realized, I was like, I don't want him to be, I'd rather him not. Because it's like, yeah, he's gonna have, they're gonna ask him about the war in the Middle East and stuff, and he's gonna, just don't, like, don't, like, it's too much pressure. Like, just don't, be, be like an evangelical or something, like, be like, like Sunni Islam, just, please don't be.

• 1:36:26Bill Simmons?

  I always talk to my friend Chang about this, cuz he loves when there's any sort of Asian, and Mina Kimes is big on this too, but we were texting this week about Dylan Harper. Filipino mob.

• 1:36:38Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:36:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so this is like, and I feel like they haven't gotten gotten excited enough about this.

• 1:36:43Speaker 03

  And Clarkson too. They got two in the finals.

• 1:36:45Bill Simmons?

  But Harper might be, I mean, he's one of the best young guards that's coming to the league in 30 years.

• 1:36:49Speaker 03

  Unreal. I think we're forgetting, we're we're missing how good he is. Cause it's just a Wemby. There was that game in the last, every series of theirs has been must see TV, the Spurs.

• 1:37:00Bill Simmons?

  I love watching them. I said in the segment before you came on, I think this part of the key to the series with the Spurs is realizing that Harper is their second best guy. They just have to accept it. He's 20, he comes off the bench, like you just throw it out the window. It's it's like where Kobe was in 2000, you just gotta like accept it. This is your guy. Do it.

• 1:37:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. I think you should sweep, uh, ship swipe swipe, that's what I would do.

• 1:37:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, that, I mean, they gotta figure out how to win this series. They can't think about next year yet, but ultimately, I would guess Fox is in there.

• 1:37:35Speaker 03

  The team is really bad when he's not playing, right? They, when they add a couple of pieces, it's terrifying.

• 1:37:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:41Speaker 03

  They're, yeah, in fact, the Knicks have to win because it's, it's not fair. But, uh,

• 1:37:46Bill Simmons?

  Well, that's the thing. If the Knicks lose game three, then that will open up. There's only 48 hours for game four and that will open up the hole. They have to do this now. This is the best chance they're ever gonna have. OKC is gonna have everyone back. San Antonio will be a year older. Indiana is getting their guys back. Boston's getting theirs guys. Like this is your window right now, New York.

• 1:38:06Speaker 03

  And it's also just the ghosts of the past, the ghosts of the Garden. I mean, it's scary. It's very scary. If if they lose game three, it will, it will be terrifying again. Cause they were so 50 50 both those games, right?

• 1:38:19Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:38:19Speaker 03

  They could have lost either of them.

• 1:38:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 03

  And it's like, usually you win it away, it's it's it's game over. Like in the series, you have to, they're not gonna win four or five, but like, I'm like, I don't know. Well, it could, it feels like this series, anything could happen. And it's like, every game is just so, it's like, just actually the best basketball I've watched in so long. And it's like, uh, yeah, there's like, there's, we were saying before, but there's, ah, there's so much tibs in the team. Right? There's so much like a hard nose, like, uh, you know, they they just get to like play less minutes now. They don't have to play like in in in March, they don't have to play 48 minutes or whatever, you know?

• 1:38:56Bill Simmons?

  One of my weird sports theories is that the, the more baggage you have, the more likely it is that stuff will happen.

• 1:39:06Bill Simmons?

  Along the ride to the end of your exorcism journey, like for the Patriots, when we beat the Rams, we had this game winning, um, game winning defensive touchdown that got called back because of a penalty. But as guys run down the sidelines, it's like, there's 10 minutes, oh my God, we just won the Super Bowl. And then it got called back and all these skeletons popped up. Um, and then the Rams scored and yeah, and it's like, oh, why did I let my guard down? I should have known. And I think for the Knicks, you gotta, you gotta quick taste of it when Brunson, when they fell into his knee in game one, it was like, oh my God, why didn't I, why didn't I have my guard up? And it's just, there's no, there's no easy path to getting rid of all the skeletons.

• 1:39:50Bill Simmons?

  You have to have a couple of those as it goes.

• 1:39:52Speaker 03

  Because you think it's gonna happen again and you know how bad it is.

• 1:39:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:56Speaker 03

  Like with Arsenal, the saying is, is the hope that kills you, right? Cause any, every single year, I think something good might happen.

• 1:40:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:05Speaker 03

  And then, and then it doesn't. And it's kind of a reminder, you're gonna die one day.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:40:10Speaker 03

  Like if you're, if you're like a fan of a, a team that wins every year, you are like, you, you're like, I'm gonna live forever. I'm gonna cheat on my taxes, I'm gonna cheat on my wife. I'm gonna like, yeah, I'm just, your life is a cocaine, just fever dream and you're so happy and you don't think about death ever.

• 1:40:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:25Speaker 03

  But if you're a team of like a team, uh, or a fan of a team like that, you're like, you're just expecting everything to fall apart all over again. And you're like, I haven't talked to my family in months and was it worth it? Like, like, I've just been sitting in this living room and I've, yeah, and my wife's like, did your team lose? And you're like, what, what, what does that mean? Did my team lose? Like, yeah. And then you get mad, you yell, you go for a walk, you go for a stress walk alone. Yeah.

• 1:40:51Bill Simmons?

  I used to do that a lot when I was younger, a lot of dog walks after tough losses. A lot of just walk in the neighborhood.

• 1:40:57Speaker 03

  I went for a walk after the, the Tuck game. I went for a walk. I'm a Raider fan, but like, I think actually I stopped liking football kind of after that. I was like, fuck football. I was like, this sucks. Like, Charles Wilson was my favorite player. Good for you. Good for you. Good for you.

• 1:41:15Bill Simmons?

  So Dee, if you had to guess with game three, do you think it's gonna be?

• 1:41:19Speaker 03

  It's a must win.

• 1:41:20Bill Simmons?

  All time memorable game?

• 1:41:21Speaker 03

  It's a must win.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  Would you go memorable game, memorable game, disappointing game, or just fucking weird all night from start to finish? Cause that's where I would land.

• 1:41:32Speaker 03

  The vibe is off.

• 1:41:32Bill Simmons?

  I think the vibe is gonna be super weird the whole game.

• 1:41:35Speaker 03

  The vibe is off. I think it's the Trump of it all. And Big Z's there, Mom Donnie's there too.

• 1:41:41Bill Simmons?

  Big Z. Are you the only one that calls him Big Z? Is that his nickname?

• 1:41:46Speaker 03

  Zdrunas Elgouskas. No, no, Mom Don. It's just like, yeah, Trump, if Trump is courtside and he's making out with Kendall Jenner and Timothy's crying, what are we gonna do? Are we gonna be watching that game? Can you imagine? He's like, I played Bob Dylan.

• 1:42:02Bill Simmons?

  The truth is.

• 1:42:03Speaker 03

  You didn't even pay for this ticket, babe. I mean, that did I, but they're giving it to me because of me, because I go to the Oscars now and you're making out with the president. How dare he? No, I mean, it's, it'll be weird, but I think.

• 1:42:19Bill Simmons?

  The truth is, he shouldn't go. Because, and that, it's just like, it's too much of a distraction and too much of a hassle for a game that's already complicated enough. Like, in the league, obviously, if the president wants to go to the game, you should go, but like, no normal president would go to this game. They would go to a game in February against like the Raptors. They're not gonna go to like, game three of the finals, uproot the entire four hour infrastructure before the game. And it's just.

• 1:42:44Speaker 03

  Well, you go to a game where they're gonna go nuts if you walk, you go to MMA, right? You don't like.

• 1:42:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but he might think that's gonna happen.

• 1:42:51Speaker 03

  People don't think he's doing a good job. He got booed when he went to the polling station in 2016. And he like changed his residency to, but he misses New York, I think. Actually, I've heard that, yeah.

• 1:43:01Bill Simmons?

  This is like his way to get back in with you.

• 1:43:04Speaker 03

  He's trying to start dating us again. Yeah. Hey, guys.

• 1:43:07Bill Simmons?

  After break.

• 1:43:07Speaker 03

  I've been in Palm Beach.

• 1:43:08Bill Simmons?

  It's like when J Lo and Affleck got back together.

• 1:43:10Speaker 03

  I'm living my best life in Palm Beach, just so you know. I don't know if you saw the pictures.

• 1:43:14Bill Simmons?

  Wait, but this episode is brought to you by Sony Pictures Classics. A perfect crime film, says the Daily Beast. John Torturo gives a career best performance. Don't miss the acclaimed new thriller, The Only Living Pickpocket in New York. Torturo stars as an aging master pickpocket, whose latest score puts him in the crosshairs of a ruthless crime family. It's also starring Giancarlo Esposito, Tatiana Maslany, Will Price, and our guy, Steve Buscemi. See the film that the LA Times calls instantly classic. The Only Living Pickpocket in New York opens in theaters October 23rd in New York and Los Angeles, nationwide October 30th. All right, quick break. This episode is brought to you by Fire TV. You ever sit down, ready to watch the game, only to search and scroll endlessly?

• 1:43:59Bill Simmons?

  If so, you need Fire TV. It shows your live games from your favorite teams all in one place, right on the home screen. No more searching. Just sit down and turn on Fire TV. Separate subscriptions may be required. Feature and content availability may vary. We have to do something quickly on your podcast.

• 1:44:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  So you were on Come Town on ABC, one of my favorite sitcoms.

• 1:44:23Speaker 03

  It was on, yeah.

• 1:44:24Bill Simmons?

  It wasn't a sitcom, it was a podcast.

• 1:44:26Speaker 03

  It was called Home Improvement, yeah.

• 1:44:28Bill Simmons?

  Your initial podcast was Come Town, and you guys never realized ever that you'd actually make money from it. And then all of a sudden, you were making money from it and turned it into an actual, you know, a way to...

• 1:44:40Speaker 03

  Everything that's happened in my life has been an accident, honestly.

• 1:44:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, you thought the podcast was gonna promote like your comedy and the weekends, and all of a sudden, people liked it.

• 1:44:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, we didn't know that you could make money from podcasting. And then, so that we kind of like, I think, yeah, we didn't know how it was growing. People, they used to ask us for like interviews and stuff, and Nick had like a no media policy.

• 1:45:00Bill Simmons?

  Smart.

• 1:45:01Speaker 03

  And I didn't, and it was just like, at a certain point, then you're like, I had to work two hours a week, and I became the laziest man in the world. And so like

• 1:45:09Bill Simmons?

  Welcome.

• 1:45:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, then I was just like, but it sucked. But I mean, you're watching sports for work.

• 1:45:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 1:45:16Speaker 03

  I'm so jealous of you.

• 1:45:17Bill Simmons?

  Now that's you. That's gonna be you during the World Cup, hosting Beautiful Pod.

• 1:45:21Speaker 03

  She's not gonna respect it. I'm telling you, she's still, she's not gonna respect the, my, I'm a, I'm a sports pundit now, no. Uh, no, uh, no, in reality, yeah, this new show started and it was a joke and it's really credit to my old co-host Nick. Cause uh, our Stavros is a, our friend who he uh, was exhausted and he left Come Town. And I was, I was like, but we should keep doing it, Nick. We have a brand, you know, we should keep going. And he was like, no, you gotta listen.

• 1:45:48Bill Simmons?

  There's more come in Come Town. We gotta keep going.

• 1:45:51Speaker 03

  I'm gonna turn you into a, a public intellectual to, into like, in the vein of Dick Cabot. And but like, we very publicly pronounced, I think it was a joke. I mean, it's like, I was the least uh, beloved member of the three by far. But probably least talented by far too. And not probably, definitely. I mean, they're like geniuses, the two of them. And uh, and then I guess I decided to try for the first time. I, I'd never had, I think I was 35. It was, it's really scary too. You know that? It's scary because if you try as hard as you can and then it sucks. And you feel bad. That's why, that's why it's, it's sport, like Wemby was like, like this, because he tried as hard as he could.

• 1:46:31Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:46:31Speaker 03

  And uh, yeah, it sucks. Like if it doesn't go well.

• 1:46:34Bill Simmons?

  That was Shaq in the 2000 season. He's like, I'm really gonna go for this and try to win the MVP in the finals. But it's scary because if it doesn't happen, now.

• 1:46:41Speaker 03

  And you feel, you feel terrible. And it's like, um, yeah. And so then I just uh, somehow it fell in. We didn't know how to make a television show. We publicly pronounced to the world, we're making a TV show. And then we were like, so we should, we should get some cameras, maybe. Then we got an office in like some building and then we built out a set. It was like all happening in real time. And then eventually it's become a real thing. And.

• 1:47:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, one of the best things is you have a crazy guest list. I would say eclectic is the right word for it. But you'll basically, you'll interview anybody. You don't care.

• 1:47:17Speaker 03

  I had Sarah Jessica Parker and then I had the, one of the Nelk Boys in the next.

• 1:47:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's uh, I kinda like that is having a unpredictable kind of like rollout of guests. It's kinda makes it fun and feel feel fresh. But uh, yeah, that's one of the things that I enjoy the most about it, but I don't know. I I really like doing them because it's you. You were telling me you you used to do interviews, but it's cool. I do a lot of research. I do like two, two weeks of research for each guest. And I have researchers that we hire, like there are some of the journalists and like, you know, people that we bring in and like do research packets for me. But like it's what's really cool is like try to account for what someone is like that you've never met. And then like building together the evidence that you find on like, you know, that that's been like prepared for you. It's like being an FBI profiler.

• 1:48:06Speaker 03

  You wanna, you wanna disarm a guest, right? You want them to be comfortable so they'll open up more. So you have to like, kind of try to plan for like whatever tripwires there are. So you can like continue to like, uh, to like, keep them comfortable enough. I think the way I do it kind of maybe a little bit is just to present to them that I'm so unserious, they really don't like, it's, they don't have to worry like I'm a pretty dumb guy and like, you know. They let their guard down. I used to be on a show called Come Town. There was a time I pooped my pants during an episode and literally I was laughed at by thousands of people. And I went home and I was like, I just feel like I did, it was like in front of the whole school and I'm like, and it might, I might not have kids that are gonna hear about that. They're gonna respect me as a father.

• 1:48:51Speaker 03

  And she's like, I think you're getting a little carried away, Adam. I was like, but dude, why would you even, no, why, and how happy it made them that I pooped my pants. Enjoy that they got. No, and and now I'm talking to like Gavin Newsom and it's really shame on them. I don't, I'm not fully aware of why this is happening, but I'm not asking any questions. I guess the show's good, but like, it is really, I don't know. Like, uh, it's insane how fast this has been. It's been a year since I relaunched the show and made it weekly. And uh, it's grown like so rapidly. And uh, now I get to talk to my hero. I had Bill Simmons posters.

• 1:49:32Bill Simmons?

  Gavin Newsom?

• 1:49:33Speaker 03

  I had Bill Simmons posters in my wall.

• 1:49:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I thought you meant Gavin Newsom.

• 1:49:36Speaker 03

  I had Sports Guy articles.

• 1:49:37Bill Simmons?

  Ah.

• 1:49:38Speaker 03

  And pinup girls. I had your articles and they had some pinup girls. And me and the rest of the GIs, we used to whistle at your articles. No, uh.

• 1:49:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, you had all these, I noticed something was happening because you started to do really smart press. People write these features about you.

• 1:49:57Speaker 03

  I didn't know.

• 1:49:57Bill Simmons?

  Is he the Millennium Jon Stewart?

• 1:50:00Speaker 03

  That I knew about.

• 1:50:00Bill Simmons?

  And I was like, this is great. He's figured it out.

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  All my friends made fun of me for that because the, are you the millennial Jon? And the pictures that they use every time. I'm just like, every single, they used one of me like this. And I'm like, every comedian is gonna make, I like went to the, to this building.

• 1:50:16Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:17Speaker 03

  For the photo shoot. And I, they like had me go on the floor with a microphone like this. And I was like, I like stopped them. I was like, can we not do this one? And they made it the main picture. Like every comedian group chat was like, fuck this guy. I was like, uh, but then I guess the other.

• 1:50:31Bill Simmons?

  That's every comedian group chat anyway.

• 1:50:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course. You respect it.

• 1:50:35Bill Simmons?

  It's just resentment and barbs.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't, the, yeah, I guess I like, the other couple of ones I didn't know they were writing. I think they were like reviews. But it's just, uh, you know what it is? I think it's really sad. I think it's sad they don't have anything better than this.

• 1:50:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, there was a whole theory post the election about, well, where is the Rogan manosphere? Where's the other version of this? And I don't know. I never understood it.

• 1:50:59Speaker 03

  A guy that wants to be the president is talking to me.

• 1:51:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:01Speaker 03

  To me. Talking about sports is I'm, I'm like excited because we're gonna go, um, like, uh, I get to take a break from the show and I'm just banking episodes. And I'm going to pre-production. Uh, yeah, yeah. Yesterday I tweeted at Hunter Biden. Apparently he's, he likes, he's coming on the show. And it's something like banking episodes and building out a rollout for season three.

• 1:51:21Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 1:51:22Speaker 03

  And then in the meantime, I get to do this sports thing. And, uh, I get to watch like, you know, uh, like Ivory Coast versus, uh, you know, Australia. And tell my girlfriend that it's important. This is business. And she's like. My parents are here right now.

• 1:51:38Bill Simmons?

  And you think France and Spain are the two favorites?

• 1:51:42Speaker 03

  I think.

• 1:51:43Bill Simmons?

  And you like Brazil at plus eight fifty on FanDuel as a dark horse?

• 1:51:47Speaker 03

  I do. There's so many arguments for and against everyone. That's what's kind of fun. Brazil has like the magic of Don Carlo.

• 1:51:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:54Speaker 03

  The magic of like the guy that's just, he just eats food. It just tells them just to have fun out there. And somehow it's just like, has this energy, like this vibe about him that's just like, creates this, uh, just, yeah. Like I was, Pep Guardiola, um, like used to just be in a lair next to a candelabra the night before the Champions League final. Just with like, just constructing the most psycho like tactics. And like, this is, he'll never see this coming. And then just lose to, to, to Don Carlo the next day. It's just like, it was a perfect, like, uh, just a destruction of like, uh, someone that's overly thinking everything and someone that's just like, just have fun. You guys are so good at sports. Can you imagine when you were little, if that you knew you were gonna do this?

• 1:52:38Speaker 03

  That's awesome. You know, he's probably saying stuff like that. And, uh, but like, you know, Portugal has the best midfield, the Portuguese midfield is disgusting. It's a joke. I mean, they have, uh, Neves, they have Bruno and they have, uh, Vitinha. It's, it's like, uh, there's like so many, the, the Dutch backline is the best, you know, and it's just, but they're like issue, there are holes you could convince yourself of it. Uh, I, I think conventional wisdom is like the France or Spain do it. Um, and like, uh,

• 1:53:10Bill Simmons?

  Does America get out of their bracket?

• 1:53:13Speaker 03

  The bracket? I, I don't know if, do they?

• 1:53:15Bill Simmons?

  Not the bracket though, group.

• 1:53:16Speaker 03

  I think they win the, win the group crash out first, first knockout. That's my prediction. It just feels like that to me. I think that there's something, there's something just, like, there's no energy there. And America, the country, isn't just going nutso for them right now.

• 1:53:30Bill Simmons?

  What under twenty-five player do you think Tommy Alter is gonna say, hey, I'm going to dinner tonight with so-and-so. It's between games. Do you want to join us? Which one is he, which one is he gonna glam onto? Yeah, out of any country?

• 1:53:44Speaker 03

  I don't know. Oh, at the World Cup?

• 1:53:46Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:46Speaker 03

  He knows soccer players too?

• 1:53:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, I just feel like he's gonna add it to his arsenal.

• 1:53:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's gonna go to like a hookah bar with Lamina Mall.

• 1:53:53Bill Simmons?

  Mbappe, Mbappe's in town. We're gonna go to the Bowery tonight if you wanna meet us.

• 1:53:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Who would I wanna, well, who would I wanna chill with with Tommy Alter? I mean, Saka is my favorite player. Yeah, Bukayo Saka. He's a, he's like the guy, he's the guy at seventeen who pulled Arsenal out of like just the worst period in our history. And had been there since he was like eight years old. And, uh, yeah, it's just like, uh, there's something, there's something special about that. He's also another guy who, he had a rough season, but I'm gonna say he's at a world-class talent level in sports. But he's uniquely, um, decent as a human being. Like, there is an aspect of like, you have to shed your like, uh, humanity kind of sometimes, like, there's a, like,

• 1:54:38Speaker 03

  Jordan and Kobe kinda had to build themselves into psychos to like achieve what they achieved, right? And that we, there's an understanding where like, yeah, if you're gonna be like, I wanna take the last shot at the buzzer and miss. You have to be crazy. You have to be like, it has to be me, right? And there, you have to like, kind of, uh, build yourself into a sociopath.

• 1:54:57Bill Simmons?

  And that's what Wemby's trying to do.

• 1:55:00Speaker 03

  He, Wemby has it. We love it.

• 1:55:02Bill Simmons?

  He took the last shot a game too. Like, I don't feel like Shaq would have done that in the second year of his career.

• 1:55:07Speaker 03

  Well, we've never seen, what, what even is that?

• 1:55:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:10Speaker 03

  I don't know, like, he's Durant and he's, I don't, what even is he? But, uh, but yeah, could you think of anyone in sports who's like just like one of the best players in the world? And is just a good guy? I can't think of it, actually. I think of like, you have to kind of build yourself into a monster to be, uh, you're like, does that make any sense to you or no?

• 1:55:31Bill Simmons?

  I think you have to be, I think there has to be a little bit of a zero-sum game mentality to really dominate a sport.

• 1:55:37Speaker 03

  How could you like, get ready in the locker room before a game and just be like, a lovely person, right? It doesn't make sense. You have to kind of be like, I wanna, I wanna kill today. And I'd be, and I wanna humiliate other people.

• 1:55:50Bill Simmons?

  Well, look at Brady now. Brady post NFL and people are like, wow, he's kinda weird. It's like, yeah, cuz you gotta be kinda weird to be the best quarterback of all time.

• 1:55:58Speaker 03

  I, I, we had no idea.

• 1:56:00Bill Simmons?

  Oh, you didn't know?

• 1:56:02Speaker 03

  I had no idea that he was weird while he was playing.

• 1:56:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we, we started near the end.

• 1:56:07Speaker 03

  He's so offended. It's so real to you. It's so funny.

• 1:56:10Bill Simmons?

  Ah, he's a family member. He brought us six Super Bowls.

• 1:56:13Speaker 03

  Did he kiss you on the lips?

• 1:56:14Bill Simmons?

  No, he's just, who did he kiss on the lips? The son?

• 1:56:18Speaker 03

  His son, yeah. And so did Belichick, the daughter. There's kind of a nice thing about kissing on the lips.

• 1:56:24Bill Simmons?

  Do you want to leave on that note?

• 1:56:27Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:56:29Bill Simmons?

  No, we, we have to wrap up though.

• 1:56:31Speaker 03

  I know.

• 1:56:31Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:56:32Speaker 03

  I've just been thinking about this last podcast the whole time.

• 1:56:34Bill Simmons?

  No, come on, we're fine. No, we, we hit a lot of the same stuff.

• 1:56:38Speaker 03

  It would have changed everything.

• 1:56:39Bill Simmons?

  Why don't you do this? You told a great story about Kobe and Michael Jackson in the last podcast. We can add that story because it was a really good anecdote. I had never heard it.

• 1:56:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. Did you look it up afterwards? Did I just state any facts?

• 1:56:50Bill Simmons?

  I didn't look it up.

• 1:56:51Speaker 03

  Just look it up on your computer.

• 1:56:52Bill Simmons?

  I'm not looking up. No, we gotta go. Tell the story. We were talking about Kobe and.

• 1:56:57Speaker 03

  No, no, seriously.

• 1:56:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, we were talking about Kobe and, and about how it took them a while to round into Kobe and all of the twists and turns. And then you told the story I'd never heard.

• 1:57:08Speaker 03

  We were talking about, yeah, um, there was something about like him just, uh, having his whole thing about mentorship, right? And then, uh, yeah, but after Bald had Kobe rookie year Slam Dunk Champion, uh, apparently he decided he wanted to have a man's body. Oh, he needed a man's body, not he wanted, but he was a child. I mean, he looked little. Like LeBron, his rookie year looked like that was a grown ass man, but, uh, yeah, apparently he was like at Gold's Gym. He's like lifting weights and, uh, he got a call and it was like, Kobe, it's Michael. And then he was like, no, it's not. He hung up and he's like, Kobe, I swear to God, it's Michael. Like, don't hang up, please, please, please. And so he's like, he's like, you, you want to come up to Neverland? Like, I want to meet you and say what up, uh, talk, it'd be great to meet you.

• 1:57:50Speaker 03

  So he went out there and he gave him this book called, this is, it's like a child's book, Jonathan Livingston Segal. And, uh, he said, this is, you're, I, I've watched you and you're like me. And people are gonna heap you with praise and give you everything you want, and then they're gonna take it away. And you just have to remember that one moment where they take it away that you can't stop, like you can't stop, uh. Like, uh, just like what's driving you? And it's kind of like, that is kind of a good assessment of Kobe's career. A good understanding of it.

• 1:58:19Bill Simmons?

  But he does this four years before the trial, right? So it was like 1999 range, so it was about two, like.

• 1:58:25Speaker 03

  Apparently, yeah.

• 1:58:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:26Speaker 03

  So apparently they were like in touch well before that. And then, but prior to, but since that, and then afterwards, uh, I think when they both had legal trouble, the Eagle Colorado thing and Michael's second trial, they stopped talking. But, um, yeah, he was like, uh, just, just you can't forget. Like you have to just, you, you have to just push yourself as hard as you possibly can. And, uh, and do not let them, uh, like take that away. And it's like, it's kind of, for me personally, like, I was so sad. Cause how old was he when he had three? He was like 24?

• 1:59:03Bill Simmons?

  Probably, yeah, yes.

• 1:59:06Speaker 03

  Which is so many chips at such a young age. And then we were like asking ourselves like, what could happen now? Like he, he could just win a zillion, right?

• 1:59:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but you know, being back there, like being an adult during that, it was always Shaq and Kobe together. How many were they going to win together? Can they win eight? And they were always a team. And then the catch would be, can these guys stay together? And, and then that eventually became the issue.

• 1:59:31Speaker 03

  So my dad, who got really into American sports and Los Angeles sports, after the Piston series, he stood up with about two minutes to go in the fourth and he stood up and he shouted, he's like, "We never go on family walks." We were like, what? And he's like, "Everyone get your shoes on." And he was walking like five feet in front of us, just pissed, like, uh.

• 1:59:52Bill Simmons?

  This is Joe Rogan?

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  My dad.

• 1:59:54Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:59:55Speaker 03

  Max, my real dad. Uh, yeah, my father, Joe Rogan, no, yeah. I, I didn't say his name. I just said that he was a host of a show called The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 2:00:09Speaker 03

  No, but it was so, I have this memory of like me, me and my mom and my sister, we were like, he was like 10 feet in front of us and we were trying to walk fast. He was walking as fast as he could. It was, he was just so mad. The Ben Wallace Pistons.

• 2:00:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:23Speaker 03

  That was, that was an awful, being a Laker fan, it felt terrible.

• 2:00:28Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that was even more stunning result than the series we're having now because

• 2:00:33Speaker 03

  I

• 2:00:34Bill Simmons?

  Kind of, yes. Even though the Spurs were favored, a lot of people, but a lot of people are picking the Knicks.

• 2:00:38Speaker 03

  Their center was 6'7".

• 2:00:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:40Speaker 03

  How big was Ben Wallace?

• 2:00:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, he was like 6'9", but

• 2:00:44Speaker 03

  He was 6'3".

• 2:00:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:46Speaker 03

  Okay, and he was bodying Shaq.

• 2:00:49Speaker 03

  It was like, yeah, what was that team? It was Billups, Tayshaun? It was like, we never saw that coming. And, uh, yeah, whatever. But, uh, yeah, yeah. Then ever since then, the tell me how my ass tastes. And Shaq, Shaq has kind of gifted a, a, a fourth ring. D Wade goes on like a historic tear. Everyone's laughing at Kobe now. Shut up.

• 2:01:11Bill Simmons?

  Shaq was pretty important on that team.

• 2:01:13Speaker 03

  He was pretty important.

• 2:01:14Bill Simmons?

  Gotta defend Shaq.

• 2:01:15Speaker 03

  He rides D Wade's coattails to the, to the, to a fourth. And no, um, no, but it, uh,

• 2:01:22Bill Simmons?

  Did you ever say that?

• 2:01:23Speaker 03

  Everyone's laughing at my favorite player. And I was like, but he's a, also I think he was blamed for the breakup of that team unfairly. And I think the, it was really the buses that, uh, that wanted to break the team up. And I, I think that in retrospect, like, you don't think so?

• 2:01:37Bill Simmons?

  There's been a lot of books written about this. Kobe, Kobe wanted his own, Kobe was ready for his own team. And I think he was incredibly frustrated by Shaq.

• 2:01:46Speaker 03

  Smush Park, get Smush Parker on the phone.

• 2:01:47Bill Simmons?

  No, but I think he was, I think him and Shaq were not meant to be.

• 2:01:50Speaker 03

  Kwame Brown on the

• 2:01:51Bill Simmons?

  They were not meant to be a long-term marriage. And I don't think

• 2:01:54Speaker 03

  I mean,

• 2:01:55Bill Simmons?

  All the stuff that happened off the court didn't help either, but you know, Shaq had

• 2:01:59Speaker 03

  I'm gonna say that Kobe, it wasn't Kobe's fault. No, but in reality, I think that it's just like you see it, it's just like LeBron after the decision, the guy who's beloved, just everyone's like, ha ha, like, we love seeing, we love seeing people destroyed somehow in society.

• 2:02:15Bill Simmons?

  And then build them back up.

• 2:02:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. In America, we do. In the UK, they don't. It's weird. When I watch like British sports, they don't have a concept of comebacks. It's insane. But like when Tiger won, I cried, right? Like, because I was like, I never thought I'd see him again. And I was like, he was, when I was a kid, he was like in Sports Illustrated for Kids. And he was like, he was also a kid like me, and he was winning by like 20 strokes and making Phil Mickelson want to kill himself every Sunday. Dude, just eat shit every Sunday.

• 2:02:44Bill Simmons?

  This is how I felt when I saw the town. I was like, Affleck's fucking back. We are out of the woods. My guy is back. Let's go for a ride. You reminded me that you did this whole bit about Tibbs and Steve Kerr, and you wanted to redo it. So let's pretend, let's pretend you're ad-libbing this from scratch. I asked you.

• 2:03:07Speaker 03

  We can start.

• 2:03:08Bill Simmons?

  If you were Tibbs' best friend, watching the Knicks two games away from the finals, what would you say to Tibbs?

• 2:03:15Speaker 03

  I would say, first of all, it's great to be best friends with you. You're an incredible guy. You shout a lot. And also, like, what's going on with your throat? Like, you're always hoarse. Should I make a little tea with honey? I have echinacea. Are you sick? Do you think it was necessary to play everyone 47 minutes in November?

• 2:03:38Bill Simmons?

  Why didn't you trust Shamit? No, but you're trying to lift him up, though, because the Knicks are two games away from the finals.

• 2:03:43Speaker 03

  Your DNA runs through these boys. I mean, that is a fair point, to be honest. Like, he like built, like, how hard-nosed they are. And especially like seeing them collectively deal with Wemby. There is something about like, they're like, yeah, he's made them tough. Like, all the, even, I know Cat's been, had a new coach for a year, but like, it's a cat that we haven't seen yet, right?

• 2:04:05Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 2:04:05Speaker 03

  And it's like, but I, but I do, I feel bad, I do, for like Mark, I felt really bad for Mark Jackson. But he was doing the ABC broadcast the year after he retired, or retired, he was asked to leave. Because it was just like, how must he have felt like watching that? It must have been like watching your wife having sex with a man who has the biggest penis in the world. And not only she orgasm after orgasm, just sitting there saying, hand down, man. That was good deep, but better. Oh, just like he's whispering in her ear. And you're, you have to not only, no, wait, not only do you have to watch your wife having sex with her, the best, the guy that's giving her the sex of her life.

• 2:04:47Speaker 03

  You have to give a play by play on ESPN and ABC.

• 2:04:52Bill Simmons?

  For the next five years.

• 2:04:54Speaker 03

  You have to do, yeah, and now he's, now he's a, it's reverse cowgirl. That was, and that's some great reverse cowgirl, whatever he does. And that's hand, that's good deep, but better. Oh.

• 2:05:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:05Speaker 03

  Hand down, man. Yeah. I mean, I think I would hope that Van Gundy was just nice to him and said like, listen,

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  listen, come on, man, you're a good guy.

• 2:05:17Bill Simmons?

  You're a good guy. She wouldn't have known that she was gonna love it.

• 2:05:21Bill Simmons?

  Like this until, until she went through the marriage with you.

• 2:05:25Speaker 03

  She had no way of knowing. I just, I didn't even know a woman could have.

• 2:05:28Bill Simmons?

  This would have happened with you. Yeah, this would have happened with you if you just hung around.

• 2:05:32Speaker 03

  You were great. I mean, it's, you know, are you sure for a job you want to be doing the play by play? Mike Breen is saying bang over and over again, excitedly. Every time your wife.

• 2:05:44Bill Simmons?

  Curry bang, bang.

• 2:05:48Bill Simmons?

  All right, we're wrapping up. Adam Friedland Show coming back in July and the Beautiful Pod starting in June on Wednesday. Chris Ryan, many others, maybe I'll.

• 2:05:57Speaker 03

  Putting on the hat, signing ceremony.

• 2:05:59Bill Simmons?

  Signing ceremony. Great to see you. All right. Thanks, Adam Friedland.

• 2:06:03Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to State Farm for sponsoring today's show. Thanks to Adam Friedland. Don't forget, he is coming aboard. Go check out his podcast if you haven't listened to it. It's great. Really fun interviews with a whole variety of eclectic people. He's really good at what he does. Excited to have him with the World Cup. Excited to lend him CR for a few weeks. You know, we don't always do that. A lot of people want to borrow CR. Thanks to How and Eduardo and everybody from my side as well. Here's the plan. Monday night, game three, it's gonna end. And then Rob Mahoney and I are gonna be live on Netflix, breaking down what is sure to be. A memorable game in some respect. I don't know what's gonna happen. I'm prepared for anything.

• 2:06:47Bill Simmons?

  New rewatchables is coming Monday as well. We did Single Weight Female. We're in the middle of From Hell Month. Also, we put up a mailbag on Thursday. If you missed that one, just about an hour. But banked through some really fun questions for that. I will see you in 32 hours, 36 hours, something like that. Enjoy game three. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESSET. Call 888-797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here.

• 2:07:29Bill Simmons?

  Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts or call 8778HOPENY or text HOPENY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.

• 2:07:46Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures, Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell. I like those guys. Star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh. Writer-director of The Banshees of Minnehoshan and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys. Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9. Only in theaters November 6th. Get tickets now.

• 2:08:32Speaker 04

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