132: Resentment, Expectations, and Unmet Needs: The Three Relationship Killers With Dr. Morgan Cutlip

In this episode of The Sabrina Zohar Show, psychologist and author Dr. Morgan Cutlip joins Sabrina to unpack the three silent relationship killers that derail connection: resentment, unmet needs, and unrealistic expectations. Whether you’re single, dating, or married with kids, this conversation dives into how these patterns sneak in, how to name them before they take over, and how to build emotional safety without losing your voice. From the belief that “they should just know” to the fear of being too much, Dr. Morgan and Sabrina explore how communication, vulnerability, and clear needs are the foundation of sustainable intimacy. You’ll learn how to express your needs without guilt, how to approach hard conversations without triggering defensiveness, and how to avoid falling into the toxic “mothering” dynamic that kills attraction. The episode is filled with personal stories, relatable insights, and no-BS tools to help you stop walking on eggshells and start creating the kind of partnership you actually want. Whether you’re navigating a new relationship or reevaluating a long-term one, this episode offers the clarity and compassion you need to move forward. Get Dr. Cutlip's book: A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, and Great Sex MERCH IS NOW AVAILABLE! Stuck After the Podcast? Master Implementation in 8 Weeks with Sabrina's Foundation Course HERE! Do you feel like your emotions run the show and react in ways you can’t control? Join the Nervous System 101: Navigating the Unknowns In Early Dating from Sabrina and Masha Kay HERE! Struggling with a breakup? Join the Make It Make Sense: Getting Through a Breakup course from Sabrina and Britt Frank HERE! Get Ad free HERE! Want to work with Sabrina? HERE! Don't forget to follow Sabrina and The Sabrina Zohar Show on Instagram and Sabrina on TikTok! Video now available on YOUTUBE! Disclaimer: The Sabrina Zohar Show, formally known as Do The Work, is not affiliated with A. Z & associates LLC in any capacity. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of the Sabrina Zohar Show. My name is Sabrina Zohar and I am your host. Welcome back, babies. Happy Friday, gang. I'm so excited, not to ruin the episode today, but we're going to talk about something pretty fucking important, which are three silent relationship killers. I'm not going to tell you what they are yet. We're joined by the amazing Dr. Morgan Cutlip, and I'm so excited. She is such a fantastic therapist and just so full of knowledge. You guys are going to learn so fucking much, and I can't wait. Guys, as always, thank you so much for showing up as you and allowing me to show up as me. You guys know if you need a course, if you want to work one-on-one, you want to get some merch, whatever you guys need, everything will be linked in the show notes. We're here to support. You can download a free guide, or you can just join the email list or follow along on socials, whatever the fuck you guys want. I am here to support you guys.

• 0:45Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, without further ado, how about we get right on into it, shall we? Welcome to the set. I am so excited to have you in studio. Welcome.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

• 0:54Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, God, you guys are in for a treat. We just talked for like 30 minutes. We had to stop ourselves and be like, let's record this, so we don't lose so much meat and potatoes. But I am so excited today because I want to talk. I have three relationship killers, but I'm sure I've missed out. You've been married for a minute. I've been in a relationship. So I'm really excited to give new perspectives to our audience, so that you guys know, wherever you're at, whether you're single, dating, in a relationship, or married, we are here to help you. But I really wanted to hit on kind of these like silent relationship killers that I don't think a lot of us understand how they kind of manifest. And that, to me, was resentment, expectations, and unmet needs. But I know we're going to have a lot more fun. But before we go, could you please just tell us a little bit about yourself? What you do? You're an incredible author. You have a book coming out.

• 1:38Sabrina Zohar?

  Like, can you just share a little bit more?

• 1:40Speaker 01

  All right. This is, I told you before we got on, I'm like, this is the hardest question for me. I don't know where to start. So I have a PhD in psychology. I've been in the field of relationships for over 20 years. My backstory is that my dad has his doctorate in psychology. Went back to school when I was in elementary school. And because, you know, he was working full-time, had a family, it took him a very long time to finish school. And so I used to go to classes with him. And we would play this game where we'd be driving in the car, and he would just give me like a fake case. And he'd be like, how would you help this family? What do you think's going on with the little boy? You can help me pick it apart. And it became my most favorite game that we played. And I just feel like from there on out, I just had a love for this profession. And so-

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I don't know, maybe around high school or beginning of undergrad. I remember coming from an event with him. I traveled to conferences with him. I spoke with him at a young age. And, you know, I said, someday I want to do something to help women. And so that sort of shaped the trajectory of my career. So I have a book for moms. It's called Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself. And then I have a book coming out in April for couples called A Better Share, and that's on the mental load. So it's my dream to write books. So I'm getting to do it. So, yeah, so that's what I do now is I create content, courses, books, and things like that to help women in their relationships.

• 2:56Sabrina Zohar?

  All that fun stuff. I'm super excited and very, very honored to have you here.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 3:00Sabrina Zohar?

  And we, you know, for a lot of people that do have kids, like, it's great to have a resource and an option for them. But then for the people like us that don't, it's like, great. We don't have to just tailor it to that. But like, I think you had mentioned even that this book, you don't have to have kids in order to.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  No, I mean, like, all the examples are with kids. So if you don't have kids and you read it and be like, I don't know, if I totally relate to this stuff, like, she keeps talking about her kids. But at the same time, you know, the book, the core of it is really about, we all have a relationship with ourself. And we tend, especially as women, tend to manage all of our other relationships, pour a lot of ourselves into those, but we don't do a good job of self-management. And so I give a model for how do you actually manage your relationship with yourself? Because you got to learn, we'll talk about this, how to speak up for what you need, how to unearth these expectations that sabotage us, all of these different things that are super important in our relationships.

• 3:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's dive right on in.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 3:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's do it. Because I think, like, I see it every day, right? And I think resentment is one of those words that none of us, at least for me, I didn't really, truly understand, like, how does that manifest? Like, am I being resentful? Am I, is this just like my healing process, right? And so I'm curious for us to even kind of start there. Like, how do we see resentment build over time, right? Like, is it typically quiet? Like, how does this manifest in whether you're dating or in a relationship? I'm curious what you've seen.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's define it. Because I feel like we have to define stuff in order to be able to dominate it. Because if you don't have definition, you're just kind of like aimlessly looking at stuff. So it's resentment is a feeling that develops from a belief, because there's a sort of like a subjective part to resentment, from a belief that you have been wronged over time. And this will eventually show up as things like mistrust. In the relationship, lack of feelings of warmth, pulling away, treating the person a little bit differently. And it usually develops in three major ways. So it's either a big bang. So there's like an event, whether like, maybe there's infidelity, or there's some major betrayal, or there is a slow build. And that's kind of what you're talking about, like this quieter resentment,

• 4:54Speaker 01

  that it's just like there, you know, we'll talk about unmet needs and expectations, but a lot of times those are pathways to resentment. So it's like, you know, over time, maybe you're expressing your need and like, again, and again, it's neglected, or it's minimized, or it's criticized. And so you have this sort of erosion of feelings of safety and belief in this person that just start to build and build and build over time. And then there's this other one that I call the end of excuses, which is sort of like, and maybe you can resonate with this, where it's like, you're in a relationship, and you're like, I am going to sort of bend and mold myself so that I make it totally possible for this person to finally meet my needs, to finally take care

• 5:37Speaker 01

  of me in the way that I need. So I'm gonna make all these accommodations to make it easy for them. And then they don't do it still. And so it's like, you're hurt and you're resentful about the original issue. And then you're hurt and resentful because of all of the accommodations you've made. And they still haven't shown up for you in the way you like.

• 5:55Sabrina Zohar?

  Which I think we hear that no joke more often than not of like, I've done everything, right? I've showed up, I've done all of this, and I try, and I try, and I try. And it's funny, my partner and I, we started a new thing, and will, anytime in the moment, because both of us, like, he's significantly more avoidant. And I'm the type that I'm like, oh, can we talk? Can we talk about everything and talk about every emotion and feeling that there is? And he's like, hi, could we not? Lived and learned that. And now we have a new way, where in the moment, when something happens, and he started it, and I kind of was like, I'm down for this. He'll look at me and say, to avoid resentment, can I share something with you?

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:27Sabrina Zohar?

  And I'm always like, oh. Absolutely, because I understand it. Like, it can be something so minute as like, hey, I've kind of asked you to please clean the dishes like six times when you leave them. And every single morning I come down and they're there and I'm starting to build resentment towards you and I really don't want that to erode our relationship. Is there a way that you and I could talk about this? And I'm like, panties drop. Yes, absolutely. I'm here for that.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  Sign me up.

• 6:50Sabrina Zohar?

  But I, right? But I find that I think more often than not, and like this can also, I feel like this conversation is also going to flow between the unmet needs and the expectations. But I feel like more often than not, we think like either you're gonna read my mind, right? Like, you should just know. You should know that I'm upset. And I hear that.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  All the time.

• 7:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? And I'm curious, let's, let's go down that rabbit hole a little bit because I think there are a lot of people listening and, hey, you guys know, none of this is shame or blame. This is all about accountability awareness and us talking about it. But there are those people listening that are like, they should just know. Why do I have to say it? I already said it once. I don't want to have to say it again. I'm curious, where does that stem from?

• 7:25Speaker 01

  I don't know where it stems from, honestly, but I do know that it drives me crazy. I feel like it's part of like my mission to try to kind of like combat that belief system. Especially my second book is about like a niche topic around relationships, mental load, which is basically like how you take care of stuff around the house. And that line of thinking comes up all of the time. Well, they should know. I knew. They should know because I knew. And I think, I mean, part of where it might stem from is like, we tend to project our own knowing onto others and we just expect them to kind of see things in the way that we see things, that we, they do things in the way that we do, they anticipate things in the same way. And that's just not realistic. And I think part of the reason why we have to get really good at taking what's inside

• 8:08Speaker 01

  of us and externalizing it is because we want to set our partners up for success. So what's the big deal? To tell them. I understand if you're doing it over and over and over and over, that requires a different conversation. But if you are not telling them what you need, if you're not communicating that clearly, you are literally setting them up to let you down.

• 8:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, 100%. If I didn't tell my partner how I want to feel when I'm in my low moments, like yesterday when I had a complete fucking mental breakdown, like it was the day of the day of like, hey, I can't keep pretending, it's okay. Okay to say and like even one of my friends, she was like, it takes a lot of courage to say you're not okay.

• 8:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:42Sabrina Zohar?

  And I was like, well, don't tell that to my dad.

• 8:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Even that, like in the past, I would be so resentful towards Ryan because it would be like, well, why are you dismissive? And like, you should know, right? I'm upset. So clearly, how are you not doing this? Until he then was like, oh, I get really like inwards. He was like, when I see big emotions, that's really scary for me with his upbringing and his whole stuff. And that's for a different day. So he was like, I shut down. Like, I can't handle the big emotions. Now, after I communicated and said like, hey, when I'm in this moment, what I need from you is to look me in the eyes, give me the body language and hold my hand. Clear roadmap. And so now yesterday I had that where he held me and we talked and he allowed me to go. He wasn't going inwards. That would never have happened if I didn't communicate.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  Never. And let me ask you this. Did it devalue what he did because you had to tell him?

• 9:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Not by a long shot.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  No. And that's the other piece that people will be like, well, if I tell him, it doesn't mean anything. I'm like, good lord, you're kind of hard to please. Because you want him to just know and then you want him to initiate it at the perfect time. And that's just not fair in our relationships. And I think, you know, sometimes such like a weird thing in the world that we live in where it's like, we are trying to be, we're like, oh, we should all like be love one another and be collectivistic. But we tend to be very individualistic in our relationships. Like, well, what's in it for me? Are you taking care of me? And we need to sort of step out of that mentality and treat our relationships as a collectivistic ecosystem. Where we really are looking out for each other. We're communicating clearly. We are on the same team. We are not enemies.

• 10:12Speaker 01

  But when you start to be all about me, that's when that resentment can more easily creep in. And you start to almost like collect these complaints against your partner.

• 10:20Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, I remember I did one video where I was like, here's how I, you know, called my partner out on his avoidant behavior.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:26Sabrina Zohar?

  And there was that dichotomy. There were people like, well, thank you for sharing. Like, this is helpful. It's how you communicate. And then there was the other side, right?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Other side.

• 10:32Sabrina Zohar?

  There's always the other side of the like, well, what are you bringing to the table? You sound annoying. What is you doing for him? And it's like, well, wait a minute. In this exact moment, it's not about that. In this moment, it's about the fact that my partner said or did something that was hurtful to me. And I brought it to their attention. We communicated and we moved on. And I think that's a big part. My favorite line in Eternal Sunshine was constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating. And the reason I loved that so much, not only did I name my dog Clem from that movie, but the reason I loved that saying so much is because I think we are so bred onto like, just communicate, just communicate, just communicate. But what we're not really looking at is what's the comprehension? Does this person comprehend what you're saying?

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:10Sabrina Zohar?

  So if I consistently say, I want you to buy me flowers and then you don't buy me flowers, it's like, well, wait a minute. What are we, are we getting curious about? Maybe that's not their love language. Maybe they don't resonate with that. Are we understanding the other person's experience and perspective? No, we're coming at it as like, well, I want this, I need it. This is what I want.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Which then, which maybe this is another relationship killer, entitlement. That could be for another thing, which I know really is bred from frustration. Totally get that. But I think when we're really talking specifically about the resentment, I was curious because I wanted to ask this from an audience question. How do you address resentment without making your partner defensive? Because I know when I read it.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  Million dollar question.

• 11:48Sabrina Zohar?

  And when I read it, my first thought in my head was like, why are we so worried about somebody else's reaction? And I was like, no, but I understand the question. It's like, how do I worry this?

• 11:54Speaker 01

  It shuts it down. That's the problem. And remember when I was like, so I've talked before about layered resentment and I kind of explained it already, but this is what ends up happening. This is really a fast track to your relationship just completely imploding, which is that your partner comes to you or you go to them with some sort of issue, unmet needs, something you're feeling resentful about, and they react with defensiveness. And then it becomes that layered experience. Now I'm not just upset about what happened. I'm upset because you're not even safe. And for women especially, that feeling of safety and security is so incredibly important to be able to get vulnerable with partners, to get intimate, to have sex with your partner. All these things become incredibly important. So you have to have that feeling of safety. So in my second book, that's like a huge piece of it because what I hear from women

• 12:39Speaker 01

  in my community all the time is I've tried speaking out my needs and they get defensive or they do something called, I don't know, I just made this up, but I call it the deficit default, which is they're like, I guess I just suck. Like, I guess I'll never be enough for you. This is who I am. I guess you're just gonna have to take, you know, it becomes like all about them. They are being victimized in that moment. So then you end up having to reassure them, all these things. So. How do you talk to your partner without them getting defensive? I think some things, you know, you check yourself and how you're showing up, how you're showing up to that conversation. So a softer start is always a good thing. Some of these things won't matter, though, if you just have a really defensive partner. So it might sound something like, I've been needing to talk to you about something that's been, I feel like, creating this like feeling of disconnection in our relationship.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Or another way of saying it is, I feel like I have been kind of like not seeing the good in you lately, and I really need to talk this through with you. And I always believe it's important to be like, is this a good time? Or can you handle this? Because sometimes they can't. I am so notorious. I always bring stuff up right before sex or right as my husband's about to go on a trip. And he's like, you have the worst timing. And I'm like, don't you say that to me. You know, we get in this fight, but it's true. So I would, it's like, I'm sure there's something like subconscious going on there, but like, so check your timing. It's always helpful. Another way, some people don't like this approach, whatever. It helps and it works, which is that you sort of hedge the defensiveness, which you say, I really need to talk to you about something important. I'm feeling nervous you're gonna get defensive. Can you handle it?

• 14:08Speaker 01

  That way, you're getting buy-in upfront. And if they get defensive, you can say, you said you weren't gonna get defensive. I thought we were gonna be able to have a conversation. And then they have to sort of sit in that. It's also gonna make them pause before they get defensive because they just said that they wouldn't. So it kind of makes them look bad. So it's a little sneaky, but listen, sometimes in relationships, it's like you have to get to that end point. And if that end point is like good intentioned, which is we gotta get, have a good understanding of one another, love each other better, then I think it's fine to do some of these things.

• 14:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent. I'm a big fan of, can I share something with you?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes. You have to do that.

• 14:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Always, or I like, I will always ask Ryan in the moment, like, hey, can I share something with you? Is this a good time?

• 14:48Speaker 01

  Good time.

• 14:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Because sometimes he'll say, like, babe, not right now. I'm like in knee deep. And then he'll stop and look at me and be like, okay, present and I'm here for you.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:55Sabrina Zohar?

  It's totally okay because like, I know that for me, I would shut down. There was a little girl that's like, dad just told you, he doesn't care about you, right? And he doesn't, it's dismissed.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  We make meaning of the rejection.

• 15:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly.

• 15:04Speaker 01

  And it's never, yeah.

• 15:05Sabrina Zohar?

  Add that narrative, the story about like, well, my partner's a fucking asshole because they just ignored me. And then all of a sudden, it becomes a thing that's not.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Well, and then you said something earlier, and I didn't jump in about it, but I wanted to say, which is that when you're already in that place, okay, you start having this story you tell yourself, and then the resentment starts to build. You will start to see more things that support this feeling of resentment. So it clouds your entire perspective of your partner. And that becomes a dangerous place, and that becomes an individual responsibility. There might be some stuff you got to talk about in your relationship, but that becomes an individual responsibility to step out of that mindset, out of that lens that you see your partner through, because that's super destructive

• 15:46Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  to the relationship. Another piece that can be really helpful when you're approaching your partner about a conversation that might stir up defensiveness, is you lean into the most gracious interpretation, and that's what you lead with. So you might say, hey, I need to talk with you about something. I may totally have this wrong. I know that you love me. I know you didn't mean to hurt me, but like, I can't stop sort of feeling this way. And so I need to, this is the other thing, be a fact checker in your relationship as much as possible. So then you lean into like, so I need to run this by you so you can make corrections to the story that I'm telling myself. And like, let's talk this through. And that is also a nicer way to enter into the conversation, because they aren't immediately put back on their heels.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  You're expressing to them that I see the good in you. I don't just see the bad in you. I see the good. And so like, let's pick this apart together. We can get into it if you want to, but then there's a whole other part, which is if they get defensive,

• 16:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  what do you do? And that becomes, I think, a big piece of what I try to help a lot of women with, because that conversation is actually very tricky to navigate. But I think for a lot of us, it's important sometimes to go there. It's important to go into the defensiveness and start to pick that apart and actually try to get to the other side. Because I think, you know, you mentioned it earlier in your own relationship. You know, I think men, I mean, you're talking about your relationship, but I think it's almost generalizable. Whereas like, men are kind of afraid of women's emotions.

• 17:16Sabrina Zohar?

  I don't blame them.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I mean, we are.

• 17:18Sabrina Zohar?

  We have a lot.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  We're complex. We're like, we are, we're complex. They're afraid of us. Personally, I think there's some Freudian stuff about like disconnection from mother, and then we become the source of approval for men.

• 17:28Sabrina Zohar?

  To your point, I think this is one thing that I've really been trying to clarify.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:32Sabrina Zohar?

  You are not too much. Maybe your emotions are too much for the other person to handle.

• 17:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:37Sabrina Zohar?

  And that took me a long time because for so many years, it was, no, you're too much. That was the conditioning that I was given. That was the messaging I was receiving. That was literally what my own family, like my sister would be like, you're too fucking much, Sabrina. No one can handle you.

• 17:48Speaker 01

  Same.

• 17:49Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? I know this all day. And it wasn't until now where I've even had conversations with Brian, where I'll say like, am I too much? He's like, no, the emotion is a lot for me to handle. And it's not that it's you. And depersonalizing it has really helped with this resentment piece as well. Because then I'm not sitting here being like, well, I'm trying to be expressive and you're shutting me down and you're not creating the safe space for me. Instead, I can say, wait a minute, this isn't personal. This is not about me, which is hard. Like, this is not easy, but-

• 18:13Speaker 01

  It's very hard to depersonalize this stuff.

• 18:15Sabrina Zohar?

  Very important, though, right? Nonetheless, like, super crucial. But then to be able to stop and say, okay, I don't need resentment to build up here because I'm not creating this whole rigmarole that's in my head. Instead, I can look and say, it's not that I'm too much, it's that my partner can't handle what's going on. So then that kind of leads us into as we'll go along into expectations and needs. But that's where I then have to stop and say, well, is this something my partner can actually satisfy? Or do I, for me, need to seek professional help? Right? Do I need to go, like, my poor partner for the last week has been dealing with my panic attacks. And it's like, that's a lot for him. That's not his responsibility to handle everything. It is my responsibility to find a therapist, to find an outlet, to go maybe take an hour on a walk and leave him alone. Our partner can't be everything.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I remember a little bit of what I was gonna say, which is that I think men are often kind of terrified of our emotions. And so when we come at them with these strong emotions, and I know there are women, I always get this, where it's like, oh, you want us to do more work? But we don't, do you want to change in your relationship? If you want something to change, then you're gonna be the one to lead the change. But as we come to them, it's like, almost every time, I think it's like, almost instinctual, that they are going to protect by going into this defensive stance. Defensiveness is just a protection. It's just a mechanism of protection. It makes sense. We don't want to get hurt. We don't, so I think that a lot of times in our relationships, one of the skills that becomes important to learn to sort of level up your relationship-

• 19:38Speaker 01

  If you don't have the beautiful insight that the two of you have, which a lot of couples don't have that insight to sort of like pick it apart in the moment, is that you have to learn to like get into that defensiveness a little bit, push through it, come out on the other side and actually find an understanding, realize, okay, we're not actually that scary to each other. We're not actually trying to hurt each other. You know, we're really trying to just figure out how to navigate this relationship that feels scary sometimes.

• 20:06Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, and it brings me to like, I had Danae Logan on and I love her and she's very big on saying like, I don't think every relationship needs to be saved, right? Like, sometimes we do have to look and say, yikes, is this serving us? And it reminded me of like, one of my clients that I absolutely love her. I love her so much. And the partner that she's with is like, I'm sorry, but like, every time she tells me a story, I'm like, I can't help but understand, like, I can't help but ask, like, what are we still doing here?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Because it's every time she'll be like, hey, I just wanted to express like, can you know, I wanted to go like, do something this weekend with my friend, met with defensiveness. And I guess for me, my question was gonna be, I feel like I personally know the answer, but I would love to hear like, from your experience, when do we know?

• 20:42Speaker 01

  So I tend to work mostly with people who are married.

• 20:45Sabrina Zohar?

  Okay.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  Married with kids. So when you're married with kids, the stakes are a bit higher. I mean, we're just, let's just call this out. Stakes are a bit higher, more reason to try to make it work, more reason to say. I am in a relationship with a man that I love deeply. He loves me deeply. We worked through a lot of these things. I know it's possible, not just from my own life, from working with other clients, that you can work through some of this stuff. So I do think that like, that bar is different when you're dating than when you're married, and even different when you have children. So when you're dating, you're met with this repeatedly, that's a pattern, peace out. Okay? Things don't get better when you get married. Whatever you don't like in the dating life is going to grow in the marital life. And so just, I think your standards have to be high. You have to be ruthless. I think people need

• 21:29Speaker 01

  to be taught how to break up with people because people stay way too long. We're too forgiving. We project our goodness on them. And so in the dating life, you see it repeatedly. You can zoom out and you're like, this is a pattern. I've done the things. I've done the soft start. I've tried to dissect it with them. There is no willingness to grow or to change. Get out. Be done. Yeah, over it. Now, in marriage, a little different. So I think my kind of like rule of thumb is like, do you want to, especially if kids are involved, you want to look back on your relationship and be like, I did all that I could.

• 22:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Exactly.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  And I can leave with a clear conscience. And if you feel like you've done that, you've seen the therapist, you've done the things, you've tried all of the different approaches and they just keep pushing, then you're sort of at this place where you decide, can I live this way and get my needs met outside of the relationship and other relationships, like friendships and things like that? Or is this not something I can live with?

• 22:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  And then you go.

• 22:25Sabrina Zohar?

  For me, it's the really the progress piece.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Is there, one, am I seeing any, literally, an iota of progress, right? Like, did my partner take an extra second of a beat before he responded? Okay, that's progress.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:35Sabrina Zohar?

  And then also the willingness, because like, I have a hundred percent. So many clients that'll come to me saying, married with kids, have been married for, I had one that she was married for 20 years. The husband like talks down to her, belittles her, doesn't believe in therapy, makes fun of her, and it was like this whole, and this poor woman would like-

• 22:51Speaker 01

  That's abusive.

• 22:52Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? She would hide when she would have conversations with me and it was, you know, we worked through a lot of that. And it's uncomfortable for me because I'm like, I'm not going to sit here and be like, hey, your husband's a piece of shit, you should probably divorce him. That's not my place to say that.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:03Sabrina Zohar?

  But I do understand how difficult it can be, because this was actually an audience question and I'm curious to like kind of weave it in. How do I know if I'm holding on to too much or if it's a real issue? And I know that there's a big self-trust component there, but I am curious if there's anything that we could see, because we've answered so many of these other questions along the way, but I really think, how can we differentiate between like, do I bring this up or do I maybe just like go talk to somebody else about it?

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Hmm. So you mean, like, is she holding on to resentment too much?

• 23:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Or, or is it a real issue? Because she said, how do I know if I'm just holding on to things too much or if it's a real issue, which I understand, especially when you have high anxiety, right? That's a lot of us. You're constantly being like, am I making this bigger than it is? Or like, I've done that. I'm like, am I making an issue?

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Well, also, like, I dated a narcissist for two years and I spent like the next several years undoing that damage, which is that it makes you feel like you're crazy. So I think a lot of women, I mean, if you haven't dated a narcissist, like that had that little treat of an experience, but a lot of us have grown up being told we're too much, we're too dramatic, we need too much. So it's, I think a lot of women struggle with this like questioning of, is this actually something worth bringing up? Is this actually something I'm allowed to be upset with? And then on the flip side, there are personalities that tend to kind of blow things up, tend to ruminate. So it takes a little bit of self-awareness to kind of check this out.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  So I would do things like, I'd probably pull out a piece of paper and a pen and I would start a journal and I'd be like, okay, what is it that's actually bothering me? Is this something that's been going on a long time? Do I still have evidence that this is really actively going on? Or has this changed? And I'm just like, I just want to be mad because sometimes our anger and our victimhood protects us in our relationships. So check out what are you doing to protect yourself versus like, what is like, this is actually actively still happening, nothing's changing. I'm also a big believer, if you have close relationships, close friendships, get somebody to give you a perspective that you can trust. Because sometimes we need to ask them and just kind of get that outside view of like, hey, does this seem reasonable that I'm still upset by this? Like, shoot me straight here.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And we need that sometimes in our relationships to check that out.

• 25:13Sabrina Zohar?

  I love being that person. But I'm like, oh, you want me to give you the honest answer?

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's why I'm grateful. One of my best friends is Britt Frank and like, I called her the other day and I was like, okay. And I told her everything. She was like, okay, do you want the therapist response or do you want the friend response? And I was like, I'll take what I need. And she's like, great, I'm giving you both. And I'm so grateful because I think any of my, you know, back in the day, the friends would have been like, fuck him, he's a piece of shit, get rid of him. But instead she was like, hmm, let's add some nuance here. Let's add some layers here. She was like, I've seen you two together. I see the dynamic. I know this person directly. Can we talk about this?

• 25:43Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:43Sabrina Zohar?

  And I am not afraid, because I remember there was one conversation I had and I was like, a huge red flag to me is when You're scared. This is very different than when you just are going around to everyone and spilling your fucking business. Like, that's not it. But when you are scared or hesitant to share what's going on with other people, that was me with my narcissistic ex. I knew if I told people what he had said to me, I don't think that this would have boded well. And I knew that I would hear, I don't want to hear it anymore. And so I think it's really interesting and it's really important, especially when you have these high expectations, or you feel to have someone give you a reality check, to be like, hey, man, even if it's something you don't want to hear, it might be what you need to hear.

• 26:21Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes, we all need something like that in our life.

• 26:23Sabrina Zohar?

  Hundred percent.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  Saves us. Yeah.

• 26:25Sabrina Zohar?

  Let's talk about expectations now. Let's, we're zooming, we're kind of seamlessly, because I think expectations and met needs really do feel like they go really well together. But I'd love to talk. Can we talk about the difference here between realistic and unrealistic? Because I think, I'm gonna say it, I have an unrealistic expectation that people need to fucking drop, that somebody owes you a text every day, that just because we have a tablet in our hands 24/7, that suddenly, you should have full access to me at all times. I have a million fucking followers on Instagram alone, and people get mad at me that I don't respond to a DM when I have over 701 day coming to me. Right? It's physically impossible. Or, well, you go to the bathroom, why can't you text this person back? To me, that's unrealistic expectations, which are, I'm sure bred from a deeper place. But I was wondering whether you,

• 27:09Sabrina Zohar?

  personal or professional, that you've seen it. How do we, like, what are some balance, like, the flip sides of the coin here?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Honey, that flu keeping you up?

• 27:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't got this.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  You need NyQuil Intense Flu.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  Undo your flu symptoms with NyQuil Intense Flu. The nighttime sniffling, aching, aching fever, best sleep with a flu medicine. You do got this. Uses directed, keep out of reach of children.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  How do we know unrealistic versus realistic expectations? This one's very hard. Again, subjective. And that is the thing about expectations, is they're completely subjective, and they come from deeper roots. They come from all sorts of things, family background, other experiences, information we consume, society at large. We just, like, absorb this crap. We build these expectations. They're totally subjective. And we like place them on other people and take it really personal when they don't meet them. And so they're actually like quite dangerous if we don't explore them in our relationships especially. But I kind of see unrealistic expectations as just normal expectations gone rogue.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  They've just gone too extreme and aren't factoring in the nuance and the context. And a lot of times they become unrealistic when the person who has them has not actually done the work to really explore them and understand where they're coming from. And then they just get projected on other people regularly, leading to disappointment and frustration in relationships. I mean, the true reality here, expectations here, the gap in between is where that disappointment and that frustration starts to breed. And so, yeah, it becomes our job to really check these expectations and adjust them in our relationships. But yeah, that's, I mean, somebody should be like, she's got a buttload of followers and she's busy and she has a job. And maybe you don't own my time, right?

• 29:00Speaker 01

  Like, that's a clear, to me, taking some ownership and accountability for checking out expectations and really unpacking them before putting them on somebody else.

• 29:08Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, yeah, no, I get this.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  It's wild.

• 29:09Sabrina Zohar?

  Every day.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  That's wild.

• 29:10Sabrina Zohar?

  Well, I don't like that you have ads and you should, it's like, I'm sorry, you're not paying for this. What, you could pay, you can have that, right?

• 29:16Speaker 01

  I sell a course for $37. Okay, 37, it will literally change your relationship. I have people who write me and they'll be like, I thought this was free. You were asking me to pay for this. And I'll be like, I give you free content?

• 29:29Sabrina Zohar?

  So is my degree free?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  What?

• 29:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Was your degree free too?

• 29:32Speaker 01

  No, I'm a doctorate, if a doctorate psychologist is gonna give all this stuff for free. And you try not to get all offended, but it's like, wow.

• 29:39Sabrina Zohar?

  It's hard.

• 29:40Speaker 01

  That's a lot of nerve.

• 29:41Sabrina Zohar?

  I deal with it every day.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  I know, you're dealing with it more than me.

• 29:44Sabrina Zohar?

  It's, uh, it's tough. And it's, it's a hard, because then it's also not internalizing it, right? It's going back to like, hey, this is not about you. It doesn't mean your worth is not there. But you know, when we talk about the expectation thing, it's funny because one thing I see that's very prevalent and talk about a pattern is, like I said, kind of people that haven't really truly done the inner work. And that's okay, no shame or blame, it's just where you are on your journey. Or maybe you're making this a conscious choice and on that point, you're on your own kid. But I had someone write in saying, and this- Was an example I thought was pretty prime because I had a personal experience with it. And she said, Valentine's Day is coming up. Okay, cool. This was obviously by the time this comes out, it'll be after, but anyways. Valentine's Day is coming up and this was last year and she said, I expect that my partner is going to get me flowers and chocolates and stuff. How do I make sure that he does that? But I don't want to be too much and make it obvious.

• 30:29Sabrina Zohar?

  And so that's what I see all the time of like, I have these unrealistic expectations. I need you to do all of these things. But I don't want to communicate that with you because then I'm going to be seen as too much or too needy or like I have to be the cool girl. But then when you don't read my mind and do exactly what I say, well, then I'm going to be angry with you and I'm going to resentful and I'm going to be, I'm going to have high expectations and unmet needs. And I feel, because like I had that with Ryan, but it was a different story where I had told him very clearly, Valentine's Day is coming up. What are we doing? And he was like, I don't care about it. I said, you don't, but two people are in this relationship. I do. And I was clear. I was like, I want to do something that day or something. The day came, I didn't get shit, fuck. I didn't get anything. Not if I kept all day, kept thinking maybe flowers will show up at my house. Nothing. And I was clear with him. I was like, that's really disappointing to me. And I was, and we had a conversation. We moved on from it. Sure enough, the next year,

• 31:14Sabrina Zohar?

  he came home with seven boxes of chocolates because I was clear. I said, I love the heart boxes. I love to see what candy I'm going to get. That's all I want. I don't want anything big. I just want that. And he literally came home from the store and he's like, okay, I bought seven different brands and he had the flowers. It was so sweet. And like, because for me, I was like, if I don't tell this person.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:32Sabrina Zohar?

  But I hear that and I'm curious, kind of like when you hear that, because you chuckled a little bit, like what do you hear when we hear people like, I don't want to be too much. I don't want to say anything, but this person should read my mind. And you're like, oh, God.

• 31:43Speaker 01

  I mean, it's so funny. I'm just like inserting myself into this because my husband and I had this issue around our expectations, which was around celebrations. And his family, I don't know. It's like you gotta have the Pope in town to like have anything be celebrated. It's like nothing is celebrated in this family. Whereas my family, my mom was adopted and so she had had a crap experience. So she sort of went to the other extreme. I'm going to do everything differently.

• 32:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Speaker 01

  And then my dad had a family where it was like, everything's a party. And so together they were just like intense with celeb, like probably too much.

• 32:19Sabrina Zohar?

  Like you got an A and they're like, there's a party.

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, like what treat are we gonna have tonight? You know, and they do it with my kids now. I'm like, oh, my gosh. But yeah, and it's fun. It's super fun. But also, we didn't talk about that before we got married. We were like, whatever, I've known you forever. So we're good. And all of a sudden, I'm like regularly disappointed because he doesn't celebrate all of these things in my life that happen too regularly. Because I think everything should be celebrated and I built resentment. I built a lot of hurt and I personalize it. He doesn't love me. I'm not important to him. He's not thinking about me. I mean, that's the big thing. Going to the store, buying all the chocolate, he had to think about you. That's like the sweetest piece of it, right? It's just like, so I think there's a balance here. And that's why I'm just think there's a lot of nuance, which is one, you have to express it and you have to talk about it.

• 33:06Speaker 01

  So get it on the table, put it out in the open. Hey, I've got this expectation for Valentine's Day. And there's like stuff I want to see happening and can I tell you about it? And talk about that, see what they have to say. And I think there's this other piece, which is like, sometimes we have expectations that are too much. They are going rogue. They are kind of extreme. My expectations for celebrations were kind of like a little too much. So my husband had to step toward me more than I had to change much. But then I had to lighten up a little bit. I had to dial it down. I'd make some adjustments and we kind of met. I don't think we met in the middle. He came more my way. But I also let a little bit go. And I also recognize that this isn't some sort of indication

• 33:50Speaker 01

  of how my husband feels about me. I was making way too much meaning of it. So I think that's the thing. If you think you're too much, you gotta put it out there. It's clearly gonna bother this person. Put it out there. Tell them you're worried about being too much. I always am like, let's just voice your worry, give life to it. Let them talk about it and then you've been clear. But then also make sure, you know, check in with yourself. What is up with this intense need for these certain things? Do you want to make a change or are you kind of okay keeping it where it's at?

• 34:16Sabrina Zohar?

  And like, that's the vulnerability that also brings closeness.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:18Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Like being able to say, hey, I feel like I'm a little too much right now, but I do want to share. Or I feel like I'm too much when I want this, but I really would love to clearly articulate this to you, whatever. I don't fucking care. How you want to say it to this person that feels comfortable. But more often than not, like when I had that issue with Ryan about the Valentine's Day thing, to your point, the narrative I created was like, oh, you don't, I don't matter enough for you to do anything. Oh, you don't see me? Kay, here we go again, another person who doesn't care about my needs. And I started to villainize him. And then it wasn't until when I stripped it down, I could see his eyes where I was like, oh, this person didn't do it out of malice. He genuinely was in his own world. It was three months after we met. So it's like first relationship, first milestone in a very serious relationship of like,

• 35:00Sabrina Zohar?

  I had been single for a while and so at ease. We're like, okay, we're navigating the waters. And I think again, what really stood out to me was like, what is this person doing with this information? Right? If I go to him and say, hey, this really hurt me that you did that. If I get, well, because you're too fucking sensitive and you want everything done your way, whoa.

• 35:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:17Sabrina Zohar?

  That's not how I'm going to be spoken to. Like you said, boy, bye. It's been three months. I'm not fucking with you.

• 35:21Speaker 01

  No way.

• 35:22Sabrina Zohar?

  Versus, hey, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. Do you want to talk about this? Or hey, what can I do? Obviously this day has passed. How can I make this better? How can I make it at least feel like you're supported and loved? Do you want to celebrate tomorrow?

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:33Sabrina Zohar?

  But I often find, because somebody asked, how can we talk about expectations without sounding demanding? And I do think, to me, there is a line, right? Of like, for me, it starts with the I statements. I would love this versus you need to do this. But I'm curious if there's anything that stands out of like, how do we find the balance between demanding what we want? Kind of like your point of like, is it a little too much? Versus, I'm just asking for a need to be met or asking for something, an expectation, and I'd like to see how you meet that.

• 36:03Speaker 01

  I see like in a committed relationship, a lot of times expectations become a point of negotiation. So I think that's an important stance to take instead of like, listen, this is my list and you meet my list or we're done here. Like that's, a lot of times, especially in committed relationships over time, there's like these unilateral decisions start to be made, these like unilateral projection of expectations, and that's not fair. So expectations are negotiation. I had to learn from my husband, and this is part of it, which is like you get a little bit in there and get to the root of some of this stuff. I had to learn that my husband literally didn't. Not think about celebrations, not even in the same realm as me.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  It has nothing to do with his love for me. It was just like, oh, I didn't even think of that.

• 36:50Sabrina Zohar?

  It's not how he was raised.

• 36:51Speaker 01

  Right. And a lot of our expectations, I mean, they come from how we were raised. They come from past experiences and relationships. So you can have like a more recent romantic relationship. It all of a sudden you're like, oh, like you kind of start to expect some things. You have some new expectations. It shifts things. It comes from all the junk we consume on a regular basis, constantly in our lives. And it just comes from societal norms and expectations. And so we have this like well of sort of these like deep seeds of expectations that are planted in us that we have to unearth. We have to define them and we have to discuss them in our relationship. So we can both kind of like understand where each other are coming from, because then we can depersonalize this stuff.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  When you don't define your expectations, these misunderstandings become so personal.

• 37:39Sabrina Zohar?

  I'm curious, how do you feel about the saying, expectations are unmet needs? I hear it all the time. And I think to a point, like I understand it, but I'm like, oh, it feels very black and white, clicker, like sticky.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  I don't like black and white anything. I struggle with that.

• 37:50Sabrina Zohar?

  Bumper sticker slogans, right? Just 140 characters or less. Because I think, you know, I understand, like for me personally, having needs was very scary. Because I grew up knowing that like, that was not a safe space. If I went to a family member as a child with a need, it was going to be met with something that was not going to be positive. And so I learned to stuff it down, stuff it down. Okay, don't say anything. Be the cool girl. Be needless. Be the cool girl. The girl that's like, I don't, oh my God, you want to call me at 3 a.m. Sure. Well, like whatever, totally cool. Like you want a relationship? Neither do I. I'm like super cool. And then that to me was like, then I think that's where I started to have those unrealistic expectations. Because they were these needs that nobody else was really meeting, including myself.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:29Sabrina Zohar?

  But I was curious, because I think, you know, a lot of people are asking, how do you distinguish between the needs of that you can satisfy versus your partner? And so that's kind of, I feel like all of the world kind of blend together between expectations and needs.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  It does. It gets very fuzzy. So there's a lot of like questions in that one.

• 38:45Sabrina Zohar?

  More so, I'll say honestly, the most important is like the needs for between us versus ourselves, or how do we meet them ourselves versus our partner? Because I think a lot of people are starting to like asking like, I don't even know how to identify unmet needs, let alone how do I figure out if it's, you know, my partner?

• 38:59Speaker 01

  I know. It feels like we have to like back up.

• 39:01Sabrina Zohar?

  All right, let's back up.

• 39:01Speaker 01

  Because, I mean, especially with women, I actually think men are quite terrible at defining what they need as well, but we don't talk about that very much. But I think they're really, like, you know, I talk to my husband, what do you need? Mmm, like, he doesn't, he's just like doing this job. So people are actually really bad about identifying their unmet needs. And so then we can't identify them. So how do we expect our partner to know what we need and meet these needs for us? It's actually quite ridiculous. So, okay, I'll give you a couple of shortcuts to defining your needs. Number one, look at what you complain about the most. Our complaints are our windows to our unmet needs. And so if you find a muttering under your breath as you move through your house, if you find a regular storyline, we always have these tapes we play in our heads over and over again,

• 39:46Speaker 01

  these storylines about certain relationships, pay attention to those, listen to those. If you need to journal, write them down. And it's like, what am I really needing? What is going on here that this complaint is so loud and reoccurring? And that becomes a really like nice way to get right into there, to your unmet needs. Another way is like pretty straightforward, which is like, how do you take care of other people? We love others in the way that we want to be loved. So that becomes a clear guide to like figuring out what we need. In my book, in this book, and then also in my second book, I give like an outline of like, how do you figure out what you need, just to kind of help people get there a little bit faster? But I think the other piece to it is, I say all the time, if you are not clear, you are confusing when you express your needs. And we have to get really good at being articulate.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  You said something early on, like, oh, buy me flowers. Early on in my marriage, I'd be like, I need more romance. And he's like, sure.

• 40:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Doesn't know what that means.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  No problem. I got this, babe. And then it'd be like, nothing ever changes. You know, it was like, we get all ticked off. Like, I told you, you don't do anything different. Or you do the one thing and it goes back to status quo. That's what I hear all the time. I said something and nothing changes, or it changes for a minute. It's like, yeah, because it's vague. What does that mean? Because romance to him is like having sex, basically. Romance to me is like pursuing me, asking me out on a date, planning. It's so different. And so I think that we got to identify what we need. And then we have to get very clear at like, what the deliverables are of that need. And an easy way to think about this is like, if you had a camera on the wall, filming you having that need met, what do you capture on tape? Explain that to your partner.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  This is what it looks like when my need is met.

• 41:24Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  These are the things that you do. And that gets us there a lot faster. We're setting our partners up for success.

• 41:30Sabrina Zohar?

  What about the guilt? You know, as I was looking at the word, I'm like, I feel like a lot of people feel guilty setting, speaking about needs. How can we work through that? Because I'd love to know a little bit more about guilt.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so guilt goes back to expectations. This is how we keep going right back and forth. So I believe that guilt is actually not inherently bad. A lot of times it propels us to like repair, do the right things in our relationships, make things better. But then there's this whole other side of guilt, which is that I call undeserved guilt. And undeserved guilt, the root of it, is these extreme expectations we hold ourselves to. So extreme and undefined expectations become a source of other judgment, of us judging others, as well as self judgment. So when we have these extreme expectations for ourselves, these impossible standards that we hold ourselves to, that's usually when this undeserved guilt will start to creep in. And they come from those different sources that I already talked about.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  And so it's important for us to identify where is this coming from? So in my book, it's like, unpack the statement, what it means to be a good mom is. Unpack the statement, what it means to be a good partner it is, wife or husband, or what a good partner means to me, right? Unpack these things and you'll start to reveal some of these hidden expectations, potentially these really impossible standards where that guilt comes in. And you can then start to combat them. I've heard you talk before about like, you've got to kind of like fact check your own thoughts. You got to argue with that. It's just a cognitive behavioral stuff, right? You've got to provide other evidence and really see if they hold up. Because the stuff for undeserved guilt doesn't hold up.

• 43:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Very rarely.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  It almost never hold up. You think nobody should have needs? Like, really, you should be needless? You think people are gonna reject you just because you have needs? If your friend comes to you that you love and adore, you're gonna reject her? So you start to kind of like unpack some of that stuff and it does not hold up at all.

• 43:18Sabrina Zohar?

  No, I love unpacking when I'll like work with somebody first and they're like, I'll be like, okay, so what is it you want? Like, very vague statement. I'm like, what do you want? I want a partner to do stuff.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:26Sabrina Zohar?

  And I want the other person to change. Oh.

• 43:30Sabrina Zohar?

  Oh, more often than not, and I will scream this from the rooftops, the more that we focus on somebody else changing, the more we are avoiding doing the work on ourselves because it becomes an obsession, it becomes an addiction, it becomes, why aren't they doing this? Why aren't they changing? Why don't they become this? And it's like, baby, I'll ask you the same questions. What about you?

• 43:45Speaker 01

  Yes, and you're then the victim.

• 43:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Always.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  And that is such a disempowered stance.

• 43:51Sabrina Zohar?

  It's a lot of the clickbait that we see on the internet. It's keeping you in like, well, if he wanted to, he would, right? Well, so if he really-

• 43:56Speaker 01

  If he loved you, he'd take care of that.

• 43:58Sabrina Zohar?

  He would, that's it, he would do it. And it's like, wow, holy smokes, do you get everything you want in life? Because you just say, well, I want that. So it's done. I love a lot of things in life and I'm like, oh, so I must not want to be a millionaire enough? I must not want to be healthy enough, right? I must not want any of this stuff bad enough. But, oh, that's not about my core beliefs, the triggers that I have, the fact that like I'm scared of money, right? None of that has anything to do with it, but it's because what I hear is I'm like, it's very arrogant. If you think, well, I'm in your life, thus you should change. It's very entitled and it's very arrogant to think that, well, I'm here, thus you need to become what I want? Because then it's like, oh, we're so hyper-focused on why they're not changing, but yet we're not looking at why you're staying.

• 44:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:37Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? Because do you, I've had to ask that to guys I've dated. I'm like, do you like who I am?

• 44:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 44:41Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, yeah, I'm like, name three things about me. I would like to know. I'm asking three concrete things about me. Um, and more often than not, what I'd hear is like, well, you make me feel safe. I'm like, oh, so how I make you feel is what you like, but who am I as a person?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:55Sabrina Zohar?

  And that's okay. But a lot of times we get hung up on someone or I feel guilty, I don't want to see anything, I don't want to bring anything up. It's like, is this about them or is this about how you're gonna look, how you're gonna feel, or what it's gonna bring up for you?

• 45:05Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 45:06Sabrina Zohar?

  That's okay, right? I can hold space for that conversation, but let's call it what it is.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  Let's, yeah.

• 45:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Morgan, I could literally talk to you all day.

• 45:13Speaker 01

  I think we could.

• 45:14Sabrina Zohar?

  I think we could.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  I think we could. Did we cover enough?

• 45:16Sabrina Zohar?

  Did we cover enough? Is there anything that we left out?

• 45:18Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 45:18Sabrina Zohar?

  You don't have to leave the audience.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  What are you gonna leave the audience with?

• 45:22Sabrina Zohar?

  You can leave them with a fuck you. No, I love you guys. We'll never say that to you. But I wasn't sure. Is there anything that we left out that you feel is necessary for anybody that's struggling right now to be able to understand their needs, to be able to get curious about them, or to be able to know when to speak up about them?

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Okay, I will add one more thing because I do think that it becomes the needs conversation. I go back to this time and time again, becomes another one of those conversations we come to our partner and then they get defensive. And then you're like, here we are again, right? Past resentment. All this is past resentment. And so there's a helpful way of talking about needs that I think is just like we're saying, and maybe somebody will take something from this. So when we want something changed in our relationship, when we have a need, it's usually we are adding something, we are subtracting something, or we are multiplying. A lot of times, it's multiplying something. Because what a partner's response will often be when we express a need is, I do that for you. It's just never enough. And then you're like, oh, my gosh, maybe I'm asking for too much. Maybe this

• 46:22Speaker 01

  is ridiculous. Blah, blah, blah, blah. All that voice starts speaking very loudly. So when it comes to the multiplying, it can be really helpful to say to your partner, hey, there's something I need. You're doing it sometimes. I just need more of what you're already doing. And this becomes another way to get into that conversation and hopefully work around defensiveness because it's immediately acknowledging all the good that they do. And it goes a long way in our relationships.

• 46:48Sabrina Zohar?

  That's huge. I did that with Ryan and I was like, I want to be clear. Because I understand, especially with someone with avoidance, it's like they're feeling rejected. Oh, you're putting me down, right? What did I do wrong? I have heard this from multiple other men I've dated, of like, what else did I do wrong? And you're like, whoa, okay, it's not that you did anything wrong. And so I've learned to say like, hey, can I share something with you? And I kind of sandwich it of like, I love you, and I know that you didn't do this out of malice or whatever, but I need to be honest, the way you showed up today isn't in line and consistent with the way that you showed up before. And I need that version of you to show up consistently. Does that feel sustainable?

• 47:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:17Sabrina Zohar?

  And he'll say honestly, like, I don't know that I can do it. And it's like, okay, can we talk about what's coming up for you in the ways? Or he's like, absolutely, I can show up as that partner. It's necessary for me and for you. But it's so important. And then I'm like, and I love you, and I appreciate you, and I see what you're doing. Because I never want to be like, I'm not your mom. I'm not berating you. I don't want to put you down.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  Oh, and that's a dynamic that comes up. Oh, gosh. So see, we could keep talking because that the mother-child dynamic is one that comes up time and time again. But you did so much good. And like, that example is like, the whole idea of seeing the best in your partner and expressing sort of that, like, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I'm making this gracious assumption. I'm not seeing the worst in you. You're sandwiching it with all these compliments. You're sort of like cushioning him before you're asking for something. And yeah.

• 48:02Sabrina Zohar?

  Can we go further though, really quick about the mom thing?

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:04Sabrina Zohar?

  Because like, I do love that. I think a lot of people listening here, and it's like, again, non-gendered, right? It's not mother or father. But like, since we went towards like, I feel like I'm your mother, and I hear this all the fucking time. I feel like I have to constantly tell him what, like, to the point where even some of my clients have been like, I even have to tell them, like, I want you to take me on a date. And it's like, oh, wow, okay. This person can't be that stupid, right? But you genuinely have to look. And I'm curious, like, when we see this mothering. You smirked. What's coming up?

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I just hear it all the time, too, in my community, because my community is mostly married women with kids. And I hear, yeah, I feel like I have a third child, or I feel I have another child. And I think this is really, if you resonate with any of this, get my second book. It's called A Better Share. It's all about sort of this, I talk about this dynamic in there. But I think it's like, couples don't find themselves there immediately. But over time, I think women tend to step into taking a lot of the responsibility for the home, and then ultimately, the family life. And the more they step in, and this is not blaming anybody, okay? I'm just explaining the dynamic. The men tune out. I think they prioritize, this is like, old school, but it still holds true. They prioritize providing and protecting. And they're rewarded for that. And we're rewarded for different things. And so this dynamic starts

• 49:15Speaker 01

  to shift over time. And before you know it, you have this thing where she's like, reminding and monitoring. And then you have all the nag, right? You get that whole stereotype coming into play. And then she's told, oh, you know, can you help me? And he's like, oh, okay, make me a list. And it's like, oh, now I have to be the delegator of everything. And so it really does start to shift where she becomes sort of the head household of the household, the mother who's giving all of the commands and the demands. And he starts to Kind of pull away because that's not attractive. And she doesn't like who she is either. I think that's an important piece. She doesn't like being this way. And so then he starts to feel like another child and who this is like kind of vulgar, but like who wants to have sex with their kid? It's weird. That's gross.

• 50:00Sabrina Zohar?

  Please don't.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  So it, yeah, it's inappropriate, but like that is what's going on behind the scenes. And so, oh gosh, our sex life went to shitter after kids. Well, because your dynamic a lot of times started to shift and it erodes that feeling of trust that their partner is reliable, that they have a leadership role in the family or in the relationship. And it becomes an incredibly unattractive position to occupy for both people. So.

• 50:28Sabrina Zohar?

  Especially when you meet their mom and you're like.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  Then you start to see, then you see.

• 50:33Sabrina Zohar?

  You start to see that and you're like, oh God, am I like that? Or it's like, or I've even seen like sometimes like I love my brother, but like he'll get short with like just female energy because I'm like, oh, don't get me wrong. My mother was a fucking anxious ball and everything was like hypochondria. Oh my God, you skin your knees. We have to go to the E R. And it's like, no, no, it's fine. Like put a Band-Aid on it. It's going to be okay.

• 50:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:52Sabrina Zohar?

  So I can see even how he's guessed shorts of like, ah, because it's, that's a trigger. And it's like, hey, that's cool. That's on you. Right. You can figure that shit out, but I can understand it because none of us, I don't want a power play.

• 51:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I think like part of it is we have to just never go there. Like part of it is being like, you're a big boy or you're a big girl. Like you do your thing. And we'll keep working on the expectations, negotiating some of the stuff and communicating clearly. But like with my husband, like I don't step into the nag role. I will never. I said that early on in our marriage. I'm like, listen, here's what I would like, but I'm not going to keep reminding you and telling you to do this stuff. I will not play that game.

• 51:28Sabrina Zohar?

  I was gonna say, you're an adult. Like if I say some.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  Play that game.

• 51:31Sabrina Zohar?

  Or I'm like, actions have a reaction, right? So if I've said like, hey, don't forget to cancel this or you're going to get charged. They get charged. It's like, okay, well I don't need now need to go and call the company to get the charge reversed because they didn't know. Okay. Well, you're going to be paying for that.

• 51:42Speaker 01

  It's consequences.

• 51:43Sabrina Zohar?

  Right?

• 51:44Speaker 01

  Yes. I've let that happen thousands of times in my marriage and like, he'll be like, show up, our son plays baseball and he's like, he didn't have a water bottle. Go, did you pack one? Or did our son, better yet, did our son pack it? Nope. Sorry, or thirsty. Now you won't do that next time. Like, it's not from a, you know, a vindictive or nasty place. It's just kind of like, I don't want to see you in that way. I don't want to build that resentment. I don't want you to see me as your mother nagging you all the time. It's important.

• 52:07Sabrina Zohar?

  It's the same with the change thing, right? Kind of looping it all back of like, if I'm so focused on, I need you to change. It's like, no, maybe what the conversation is, is like, is this the right person for you? If you need so many things to change, it almost becomes a different version. I used to say that to my mom. I'd be like, yeah, blah, blah, blah. And she would go, yeah, but Sabrina, if that was the person, then we wouldn't be having this conversation.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:25Sabrina Zohar?

  You know, she'd be like, well, but then-

• 52:26Speaker 01

  That's good advice.

• 52:27Sabrina Zohar?

  Right? She would always say that. And I was like, oh, she's fucking right. Because it's true. If that were the person, we wouldn't be having the issues we're having. So let's look at it for what it is.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:36Sabrina Zohar?

  Morgan, thank you for joining us.

• 52:37Speaker 01

  Thank you for this conversation.

• 52:39Sabrina Zohar?

  Please plug the book. We're going to have it in the show notes. You guys need to get the book. But if you could just share that a little bit more about it.

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Sure. It's called A Better Share: How Couples Can Tackle the Mental Load for More Fun, Less Resentment, to Great Sex. And it's about how couples, I know, navigate all of the shared responsibilities at home and family that tend to fall mostly on women. And I think what we see, there's been another really big book about this. And what we see in the general, kind of like, social media world or podcast world is a lot of times the solution to this is, one, you just got to divide things up differently. Or, well, your partner's kind of a jerk. And so like, that's the problem. And so my book takes a different approach, which is that, listen, it's you as a team versus all of the crazy responsibilities of modern life. All of the hustle culture, all of this like, need to be productive all of the time. And parenting, there's something called intensive parenting.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  It's all this, it's a you versus that. Let's find a way to work this out so it feels good to both people. Because I don't think people change when they're being attacked. Not typically. When they're put on their defenses. And that's how a lot of this content comes across. And so, yeah, I interviewed men and women for the book. I did research for the book. And so I'm really excited about it. Sweet.

• 53:48Sabrina Zohar?

  Yeah, thank you again so much for joining. Everything will be linked in the show notes. You guys, get the book. Follow Morgan on Instagram. And thank you again for joining us.

• 53:55Speaker 01

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 54:02Sabrina Zohar?

  You sound horrible.

• 54:03Speaker 05

  Oh, I feel worse. This flu is not playing around.

• 54:06Speaker 06

  Dad, you promised you'd be in my band. And it's showtime.

• 54:11Sabrina Zohar?

  Then it's Dayquil Intense Flu time.

• 54:12Speaker 04

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• 54:17Speaker 06

  Hit it. Yeah.

• 54:19Speaker 04

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