Shan Boodram (intimacy expert)

Shan Boodram (Too Hot to Handle, Lovers by Shan, The Art of Sex Appeal) is a certified sex educator, intimacy expert, and sexologist. Shan joins the Armchair Expert to discuss the exoticism of Americans to Canadians, connecting intimacy to something specific or unusual, and that sexuality can be found playing in a facet of shared humanity. Shan and Dax talk about growing up as a precocious child with an interest in the sexual, how her mission became how to make sex education sexy, and the relationship between how porn looks and the perception of sex in different countries. Shan explains improvements in the orgasm gap, why it’s hotter to be direct rather than sneaky with your desire, and giving birth to the squirt. Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Shan Boodram.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  You wish.

• 0:06Dax Shepard?

  I'm Dax Shepard, but I love the name Shan Boodram. Who is the name of our guest?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 0:12Dax Shepard?

  Guys, I don't know if this episode is safe to listen to at work.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  Or maybe in the car with your children, unless you have a very open

• 0:23Dax Shepard?

  Progressive.

• 0:24Speaker 01

  Dialogue with them about sex.

• 0:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this is a sexy episode. This might be Armchair's sexiest episode.

• 0:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, we get into some nitty gritty sex stuff, not overarching, but like positions.

• 0:38Dax Shepard?

  Parts of the vagina.

• 0:40Speaker 01

  Like how to, yeah, how to activate some of those parts specifically.

• 0:45Dax Shepard?

  Parts of the prostate.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, correct.

• 0:50Dax Shepard?

  Wow, wow, wow. What a titillating episode. Shan Boodram is a certified sex educator and sexologist. She has a podcast called Lovers by Shan, and she has a masterclass out now called The Art of Sex Appeal. It's dynamite. I watched it. I recommend it to everybody. Please enjoy Shan Boodram. We get support from Quince.

• 1:12Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself. Because let's be honest, self gifting is a love language.

• 1:31Dax Shepard?

  Quince is seriously the gift that keeps on giving. Their high quality staples are made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, 14 karat gold, and Italian leather, full on luxury quality at prices that won't wreck your holiday budget.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  It's the dream. The cashmere sweater is starting at $60, down jackets, wool outerwear, cashmere accessories. You and everyone on your list are staying cozy and looking incredible all season long.

• 1:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 2:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 2:10Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 2:33Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 3:17Speaker 01

  Yes, and that question applies to so much more than the holidays. I think a lot of us carry these invisible rules about how we're supposed to spend the holidays, who we're supposed to see, what it's supposed to look like. And when you start unpacking that with a therapist, you realize half of your stress is coming from rules you didn't even write.

• 3:33Dax Shepard?

  This is where BetterHelp can be a great resource during the holidays. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences, which means they typically get it right the first time. If you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored recs.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  I just love therapy. I've been avoiding it recently, or not avoiding it, but I was like, oh, I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy. I have to cancel, cancel, cancel. But then I-

• 4:00Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 4:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh, my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 4:08Dax Shepard?

  BetterHelp is now in-network with more than 125 health plans with many copays as low as $15 for eligible members. And if you don't have eligible insurance or live outside the US, you can still get 20% off your first month. Sign up and get 20% off at betterhelp.com/dax. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P, dot com slash DAX.

• 4:49Dax Shepard?

  Do you live in LA?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  I do, yeah.

• 4:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you do?

• 4:51Speaker 02

  I do, yeah.

• 4:52Dax Shepard?

  And you got a flat tire on the way here?

• 4:53Speaker 02

  I did get a flat tire on the way here.

• 4:54Dax Shepard?

  Congratulations. I'd say 12% of Monica and I's text exchanges are me helping her deal with a flat tire.

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Really?

• 5:00Dax Shepard?

  That she's obtained.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's mainly "Help", and then really I just have to call AAA.

• 5:06Dax Shepard?

  Well, I have plugged some of the tires in the driveway. I've salvaged some tires.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  And you've reached out to the places to help me get in there.

• 5:13Speaker 02

  Well, this should be a part of the notes. Hey, people get flat tires on the way here. And the thing about it is, because I saw the pothole, and I can't remember if I swerved or just accepted my fate.

• 5:24Dax Shepard?

  It sounds like maybe, given the proof, that you accepted your fate.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  But maybe I swerved into it more. Maybe I swerved and if I would've just kept going, because it wasn't a large one.

• 5:32Dax Shepard?

  Like when you swerved and miss a squirrel, but you swerve into where they ran situation?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 5:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, which you always just keep it pinned.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  And I swerved to the edge of the pothole, so I got more of the sharpness.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Also, like when you fall down and you put your hands behind you to brace yourself, you think that's gonna help, or really you break your arms.

• 5:50Dax Shepard?

  And you're what, better to just fly back on your cranium?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  No, on your butt.

• 5:54Dax Shepard?

  Okay, on your coccyx. Now, listen, a service I provide, I went and picked up...

• 5:58Speaker 01

  Oh, you did, Tiffany Haddish.

• 6:00Dax Shepard?

  Tiffany Haddish. She got in a huge collision on the way here, and then I drove to Mid-City and picked her up.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:05Dax Shepard?

  And I had never met her. And so, that is a service I am willing to provide.

• 6:09Speaker 02

  I know this is the statistics of having 600, 500 episodes. So naturally, some people are gonna have accidents, but it is seeming like you guys.

• 6:16Dax Shepard?

  It does.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, but I'm gonna push back, because we're at...

• 6:19Speaker 01

  800.

• 6:20Dax Shepard?

  At least, 850. So we're talking 1 in 850 people get a flat tire.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 6:25Dax Shepard?

  1 in 850 people get a fender bender.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  It is pretty good odds, yes.

• 6:29Dax Shepard?

  Someone will murder someone en route to the podcast. I'd say we'll hit that population threshold where...

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Oh, I hope.

• 6:36Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And I'll come to get them out of there? Or I'll provide legal...

• 6:40Speaker 01

  You'll bury the body.

• 6:41Dax Shepard?

  I'll bury the body. We'll bring Carly and we'll cut it up. My little sister, she's a gangster. If you need...

• 6:46Speaker 02

  You need to have one. I'm not that one. I know who is that one, though.

• 6:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  It's just not gonna be me. My friend Bart.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Oh, your friend.

• 6:53Dax Shepard?

  Bart, shout out Bart.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, Bart.

• 6:55Dax Shepard?

  Getaway driver for you in an emergency.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  I think he just got lots of weapons. He just watches lots of dark YouTube videos.

• 7:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he's training.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  He's expressed before. I think he wants to be this person.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, you have to want to in order to be able to do it.

• 7:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, some people want that.

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  I'll just offer another perspective, which is like, you could not want to, but part of your identity is, I will rise up when the shit hits the fan. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not trying to cut anyone up.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  It's way above the fan. You murdered somebody and you want me to clean up the crime scene?

• 7:27Dax Shepard?

  It was an accident.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  Well, then tell that to the police.

• 7:29Dax Shepard?

  But the circumstances are such that there's no deniability. It looks so incriminating.

• 7:34Speaker 01

  What about for your kids?

• 7:36Speaker 02

  Oh, my gosh, this is a Your Honor moment.

• 7:37Dax Shepard?

  You have two children?

• 7:38Speaker 02

  I do have two children. I like the police.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  I have good experiences with the police.

• 7:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 7:45Speaker 02

  I trust them.

• 7:45Dax Shepard?

  You'd call the police on your children? I don't know if I believe you.

• 7:49Speaker 02

  If it was an accident, for sure. If they murdered somebody, like Your Honor is a great one, because he accidentally murdered somebody who was the son of a gang member.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  So that's very complicated.

• 8:01Dax Shepard?

  That's a TV show or a movie?

• 8:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's Bryan Cranston.

• 8:03Dax Shepard?

  Oh, we love Bryan Cranston.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  We do, friend of the pot, but we have not seen it.

• 8:07Dax Shepard?

  Sheehan, where are you from originally?

• 8:08Speaker 02

  Toronto.

• 8:09Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you are. I'm from Detroit, and Toronto was the closest cool big city.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  Did you ever go to Caribana?

• 8:16Dax Shepard?

  What's Caribana?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  The Toronto Caribbean Festival.

• 8:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  If you were black and from Detroit, you went to Caribana.

• 8:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 8:22Speaker 01

  Fun.

• 8:22Dax Shepard?

  I believe that.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Because, and I don't know if you experienced this as a white man, but there is an exoticism to Americans for Canadians.

• 8:30Dax Shepard?

  Well, it's a mix, right? They're repulsed by our obnoxiousness, but they're drawn to our obnoxiousness. And I think I was in on that and enjoyed that interplay. But I was not at the Caribbean Festival. I was on Young Street buying punk rock T-shirts and all those shitty little T-shirt shacks. So I was being extra white in my punk rockness.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  I love extra white.

• 8:54Dax Shepard?

  How long did you live there? When did you leave Toronto? And what did mom and dad do?

• 8:58Speaker 02

  My parents were both in the medical field, which is not uncommon for immigrants. But they also have a natural passion. So my mom was a nurse. My dad, same thing, came from a long line of nurses. He was a nurse for a second, then he became a paramedic. My mom is born in England, but she is Dominican and Irish. And my dad is born in Guyana. And they both moved to England at a point. Then they both moved to Canada. And then they met in a medical setting. And then two weeks later, they were engaged.

• 9:24Dax Shepard?

  And did that pan out for them?

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Yes, because they're still together.

• 9:26Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah.

• 9:28Dax Shepard?

  OK, I'm going to give you a complicated compliment. Because I myself get this compliment. I don't know how to take it all that well. Often, people will tell me, in real life, you're much better looking.

• 9:39Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 9:40Dax Shepard?

  And then I'm left to go like, am I super ugly on screen? Or I just really deliver in person? But you're very pretty on screen. I watched the masterclass. But you're like outrageously beautiful in person.

• 9:51Speaker 02

  What?

• 9:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  You are.

• 9:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, right?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I had to look to you to see if this is a normal statement that's made.

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Well, he makes all kinds of statements. Everything he says, he believes.

• 10:00Speaker 02

  It's kind of a narrative.

• 10:02Dax Shepard?

  There's no, yeah.

• 10:03Speaker 01

  Whether it's crazy or not is a different question. But yes, you are very beautiful.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  Thank you. I also looked to you to co-sign the compliment.

• 10:09Speaker 01

  This happens sometimes where you give compliments that sometimes hurt people's feelings.

• 10:16Dax Shepard?

  Well, I started by saying it's a complicated compliment. But I feel entitled to make it since I receive it so much.

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I know, but that's what you always do.

• 10:24Dax Shepard?

  And that's not true.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, like you told me once, you're like me. You're not pretty enough.

• 10:30Dax Shepard?

  There's no way those were the words.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Maybe you didn't say pretty enough, but you said attractive enough. You did. How could I possibly forget this? To book the like hot girl role. But you're not ugly enough to book the random outcast person. So that puts you in a tricky position booking-wise.

• 10:49Dax Shepard?

  OK, Shan, sorry that we've been snaring doing this. But let's be incredibly clear. I'm saying conventionally, societally, I've also been your biggest cheerleader, saying you're beautiful.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  I know that.

• 10:58Dax Shepard?

  So I'm just acknowledging that, yes, when you were coming up, the ingenue was a white, skinny girl, and you had your work cut out for you.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  Yes, you're so beautiful.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  Which is all true.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  You have incredible skin.

• 11:08Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 11:08Speaker 02

  And what a great choice to wear.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Thank you, I just got the sweater.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  Really? You don't always wear lavender?

• 11:13Speaker 01

  No, but I want to.

• 11:14Speaker 02

  You always should. You really should. But I know what you mean, I think you look like a person.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  I do, it's correct, but it did hurt my feelings.

• 11:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  Because 15 years later, I'm still thinking about it.

• 11:27Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay, okay, so my apologies. You know what happens in real life, I think? Because this also just happened to us with Michelle Williams, which is eyes can be this huge breakthrough in person. They're 2D when you're looking at them on TV or in film. Malcolm Gladwell, have you ever met Malcolm Gladwell?

• 11:44Speaker 02

  I've never met Malcolm Gladwell.

• 11:45Dax Shepard?

  Another Canadian, immigrant parents, you guys could bond. But his eyes are so fucking playful in person that I was like, he might be the hottest guy ever. It's so unexpected.

• 11:55Speaker 01

  He's very attractive in person.

• 11:56Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes.

• 11:57Speaker 01

  Well, attraction's sort of part of it.

• 11:59Dax Shepard?

  I feel like if ever there were an interview that I could...

• 12:01Speaker 02

  This is completely appropriate, I'm having a blast.

• 12:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 12:04Speaker 02

  Having a wonderful time.

• 12:05Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so what did you initially study in college? And what college was that?

• 12:10Speaker 02

  I initially went to school for print journalism at Centennial College. I also took some U of T, University of Toronto, courses there. And so I became a sex educator at University of Toronto while I was in college.

• 12:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  So it sort of became the two marrying together of, this is the story that I like to tell, and I like to share information about this with people who really want it. And that pretty much was the beginning. I started in this space being like, you know, sex ed should be more sexy. It should be more engaging, more interesting, more fun. It should be just as enjoyable.

• 12:41Dax Shepard?

  Playful, can we add?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Playful, wet.

• 12:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, oh wow, okay, yeah, yes, yes.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 12:46Speaker 02

  Expansive, surprising.

• 12:49Dax Shepard?

  Do you have an explanation of what drew you to that field?

• 12:52Speaker 02

  Growing up, I was just fascinated by bodies.

• 12:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh god, me too.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  I loved bodies, I loved intimacy.

• 12:58Dax Shepard?

  In movies, did you like male or female bodies, or both? Can you think of some?

• 13:02Speaker 02

  The earliest memory I can think of of identifying I liked bodies is I liked seeing my grandma naked.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  But it was just because, and I even noticed this with my language with my kids, they just don't want to have clothes on, they're two and four. And it's like, hey, you're... Body is for your family. You can be naked around your family all you want to, but it's just for your family. I think that maybe I was given that message in growing up and I just knew if I saw people naked, I was close to them. So it gave a sense of intimacy, a sense of like humanity to them.

• 13:28Dax Shepard?

  It signified you were in the inner circle.

• 13:29Speaker 02

  Yes, it meant something. Like even to this day, I love men's feet. There's a psychological explanation as to why people have foot fetishes.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I gotta know that.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  Because in the part of the brain that registers pleasure, the feet are right beside the genitals, which are also where the nipples are. So that's why you can get nipplegasm or people often have foot fetishes.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  I also think for me, though, you don't see men's feet often. I'd love to see yours right now.

• 13:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you would throw up.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  Take them off.

• 13:56Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna warn you now.

• 13:57Speaker 01

  Show her.

• 13:57Dax Shepard?

  At the end, I still want to keep the rhythm going.

• 14:00Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:00Dax Shepard?

  This would be a really disruptive experience for you.

• 14:03Speaker 02

  But that's why it's so right. Like there's something about, you're in this deep inner circle. My husband and I started off as friends of benefits and I really want to use the pre-term, which is F buddies, because we were not even friends. He always wore socks and I didn't have air conditioning at my spot. So I'd be having sex with a glazed donut and he would have these socks on the whole time. I'm like, if you're so hot, take your socks off.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  And he just wouldn't. And so the day that he did.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  You felt accepted.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  And I love those gnarly toes.

• 14:29Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  I really do.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  I can totally relate to this.

• 14:33Dax Shepard?

  Was he insecure about how his feet looked? Or he just was someone who liked the tactile sensation of them being covered? Do we know?

• 14:39Speaker 02

  I don't know if he does ever set up insecure about my feet, but he definitely always wore socks and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because they never see the sun.

• 14:46Dax Shepard?

  Hmm, white.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, they don't get any sunlight to the toenails, so they're kind of yellowish.

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Hey.

• 14:52Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:53Dax Shepard?

  Wow, wow, wow.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  I can totally relate to connecting intimacy to something atypical. I had this weird fetish.

• 15:02Dax Shepard?

  They already know, everyone already knows. You don't have to be protective.

• 15:06Speaker 01

  If a boy was sick, I was very drawn to that. Because of the helping and the nurturing and the intimacy that goes on between someone who is sick and a caretaker. And I'm cutting it.

• 15:20Speaker 02

  No, I love that.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  I talk about it a lot, but every time I say it, it still sounds weird.

• 15:26Dax Shepard?

  Am I wrong in remembering that we drilled pretty deep into that? And part of that was if I make myself essential or needed, it'll overcome this barrier they have. Because they're not going to like me because I'm brown. But if they are vulnerable and need something, and I can give it to them, that would be a way in.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  There's so many parts to it. That's definitely one. One is kind of like what you're saying about the feet. Most people don't want anyone around when they're sick. I don't. And so to like, let me in feels like a privilege or the deepest level of connection.

• 15:59Dax Shepard?

  Trust.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Trust.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  The hot nurse fantasy is a thing. It's a very common thing. I was thinking about it on the way over here. You know, whenever I start a podcast, usually I'd be starting it off thinking like, let's talk about sex, baby.

• 16:10Dax Shepard?

  Let's talk about you and me.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Let's talk about all the good things and the bad things. There's another layer to that for me now. I do look at sex as such a space for where all of you belongs. And if you're with somebody who accepts that, it's like the ultimate space of acceptance. I watched White Lotus this season. It was my favorite of all three. People did not like it, but the concepts of sex and how it brings together so many humanities. And then I thought about that guy who had that really intricate desire for sex.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  Oh, Sam Rockwell.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  Yes, because he thought that it had to mean something deeper if he had those thoughts. He took it to like a whole different level. When in genuineness, he just wanted to play in that facet of shared humanity. So maybe it is that you're into the nurse fantasy because there's something deeper. Or maybe it's just a side of yourself that you're like, I get to play and delight in this specific space. And I enjoy it here, and that's where it can stay. And it doesn't have to mean all these other things. And sometimes I think us trying to find the meaning in our fantasies and our desires, rather than just this is the ultimate space of human connectivity and possibility. Why would I not? Play with the idea of penis envy, or play with the idea of race play, or existentialism, of power dynamics. If not here, then where?

• 17:23Dax Shepard?

  If not now, this is your trip on planet Earth. What department is the sexology degree? Is that part of psych, or what is that part of?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I don't have a sexology degree. So my education, I graduated from college, put out a book. Years later, I got certified as a sexologist. And then I went and got a degree in psychology. I got my masters, and then now I'm an asex-certified sex educator. And that's actually how I label myself as an educator. It's what I love doing. I love teaching. I like sharing ideas. That's how I learn best. I like to get an idea and then derive my own meaning from it versus sit with somebody who creates meaning with me. So that's just my thing.

• 18:01Dax Shepard?

  So what was your career leading up to? You wrote the book, obviously. And then did you have clients or patients?

• 18:08Speaker 02

  No. So I started off journalism. I think it's an important base because that's what I wanted to do, share and tell stories. So my big aha was essentially I was extremely sexually precocious as a younger kid. And naturally, like if your kid's drawn to the piano, you're like, let's get them classes. If your kid's drawn to the body, you're like, let's get them the Bible.

• 18:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  That's that. Not in a negative way. My parents did a wonderful job, but they were in their twenties. They were young, and they had this kid who had this interest and across the street from us with a Catholic school. So I went there because it was most convenient.

• 18:39Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  It was just not an encouraged part of me. So when I got a little older and hormones came into play, I had this natural interest now mixed in with raging hormones. And I realized if I tell my parents or people who are my elders about this, it will make them hate me, dislike me, get upset with me, want to separate from me. It's dirty and pure, disappointing to them. So what do you do? You watch porn, right? You find whatever you can find. And so I read books, I watched porn, I looked at movies as my bible. And when I turned 19 years old, I had multiple sexual experiences, no orgasms, very low self-esteem. And I was at a crossroads where I thought, okay, either all the adults were right. This is extremely dangerous, hellish part of life that I'm drawn to, maybe because I have some kind of original sin.

• 19:24Speaker 02

  Issue with me, or it's good, I just have bad information. So I decided to get a library card and read everything I could. And essentially, my big aha was sex ed needs to be sexy. More people need to know about this. This needs to be brought to the masses. So that was always where I was coming from. I never had a desire to do one to one work or clinical work or research based work. It was how do I get great information and distill it down to a space that feels exciting, wet. All those beautiful adjectives used to describe good sex. How can sex ed feel the exact same way? And that was when I was 19, so that's 21 years ago.

• 19:58Dax Shepard?

  Now, when I was a kid and you would have missed her, I presume, as Dr. Ruth.

• 20:03Speaker 02

  Of course not.

• 20:04Dax Shepard?

  You know, Dr. Ruth.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  She's a legend. Dr. Ruth meets Rihanna as I like to describe myself.

• 20:09Dax Shepard?

  I like that.

• 20:10Speaker 02

  Did you know about Sue Johansson?

• 20:12Dax Shepard?

  No, tell me about Sue Johansson.

• 20:13Speaker 02

  Well, she was Canadian, so I didn't know if Canadian adjacent, you may have heard of her. But she was the Canadian version of Dr. Ruth.

• 20:18Dax Shepard?

  I remember being a kid and Dr. Ruth had a call in show on the radio and I loved listening to that. And also, I think the packaging is relevant for the sex experts. Like her really tiny stature and her accent, it did so much to de-stigmatize and give some levity to this topic. I think if it came in a different package in the 80s, I'm not sure that America would have been ready for it.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  100%. Sue Johansson, I worked with her when I was in my late teens, when I was just getting started. And I sent her my first book, which was called Laid. And the concept of laid was, tell me the story about sex, but don't skip the good parts. Even if it had a negative aftermath, you ended up with herpes or an unwanted pregnancy. Here's some real stories, but everything in between. The butterflies that you felt the first time that you looked at that person. What you thought when you saw their body naked for the first time. Tell me all of it. And Sue Johansson read it and she was like, this is not going to work. She's like, you need to embarrass people into doing the right things. You have to tell women, imagine your breasts flopping from side to side and sweat going everywhere. Imagine your partner seeing sweat in between your belly folds. That's what you have to do to get people to make better choices when it came to sex.

• 21:25Dax Shepard?

  Because she ideally wanted abstinence for people unless they were in committed relationships or something.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  I think when it came to teen sex ed or younger people, abstinence was sort of what the driving. ...force goal was, but there was a little bit of embarrassment tactics that also were as unifying for people because we weren't taking it too seriously. We had this 80 year old lady who was sitting there with a vulva puppet and, you know, jamming it with a can of Liquid Death, right? And that's what the kind of show and stick was. So I think things have definitely changed since then. I'm not very familiar with Dr. Ruth's work because different country.

• 21:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes. Now we have, I'm gonna put Esther Perel in this space.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 22:03Dax Shepard?

  But you must love her, right? We love her.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  Yes, absolutely phenomenal, game changer, thought leader. What I love about Esther, what she does so uniquely, because now we all kind of have access to the information. Amazing. 21 years ago, I had to go to a library to the far depths of the back and secretly read things, not even check them out because I was too embarrassed. And today you can look it up anywhere. What Esther does though is she takes that universal information and she brings it into her own world and then allows you to do the same with the information. So I just think that she has such a gifted mind, not just her delivery, but the way that she distills information. I've probably watched everything, listened to everything. I've been to her tour. I think she's phenomenal.

• 22:41Dax Shepard?

  It's hard not to though, notice the parallel between this interesting accent in a small package. There's some recipe there that is disarming.

• 22:49Speaker 02

  I understand. But do you think Dr. Ruth's accent was the same as Esther's?

• 22:53Dax Shepard?

  Nope. But I just think they both have accents and they're both short ladies and there's something that can't be coincidental.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  All right, then let me take my heels off.

• 23:02Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  Well, because sex is intimidating, the topic can be intimidating. And so the vessel for the information, if it's not very, although I think Esther is very intimidating, actually.

• 23:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. She's such a boss.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  But when she walks in, maybe people don't expect it and maybe that lowers the threshold.

• 23:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna argue too, there's some magic in the outsider-ness of it. I think because this country, and I can't speak for Canada, but we have a cultural repression and there's numerous explanations for that. I think we should get into why this country is so repressed and terrified to talk about sex. So it's almost like because it's an outsider, I think if it's an insider, we start lobbing on all of our judgments and projections onto them because they're one of us. But there's something about them being from the outside that I think helps.

• 23:57Speaker 02

  I wonder, there was something that I learned in sexology school when they were talking about the relationship between how porn looks and a country's perception of sex. And so in Thailand, for example, where sex is more normalized, you hear about it growing up. You know that it happens. There's just more conversation around it. Their porn tends to look like everyday people because that's your socialization of it. But for us, we're like, we don't do that. Nobody does that. And so your porn has to look like massive tits you've never seen before.

• 24:25Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Giant throbbing penises.

• 24:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Because it has to be as far removed from your reality as possible for you to engage with it.

• 24:32Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's talk about the history of it a little bit because I read this incredible book on killing, which talks about our fascination with killing. And you can pretty much chart it. It correlates perfectly with the further and further detached we get from killing, the more and more we're obsessed with it. So we used to, grandma and grandpa died in the house. You buried grandma and grandpa in the backyard. You killed animals. You had this firsthand experience with it. So for 250,000 years, we lived in a one-room dwelling. You heard mom and dad have sex. You heard aunt and uncle have sex. Then we moved to these separated individual bedrooms. And then all of a sudden, everyone's completely removed from this experience that for 99% of our time on Earth, we were quite intimately close to.

• 25:16Dax Shepard?

  And so it's developed all these interesting things, not unlike the fascination with killing, which is like, you're kind of not educated on it. You have no sense of whether you're good or bad at it. I really believe this is a part of people's insecurity around sex. If you take up basketball, you can go to the park and evaluate, are you good or bad? Are you medium? It's easily discovered. If you're a singer, any pursuit in life other than sex, all of us are like, I hope I'm good. How would I know? Other than I'm going to watch a porno with these people that don't resemble me and they're having sex that's completely unrealistic. And I'm going to evaluate myself against that if I'm a 15-year-old boy. So what do you think about that notion, just that it's hard to know whether you're competent or not?

• 25:57Speaker 02

  I think the difference between killing and sex is that for sex, one day you wake up and you're supposed to be amazing at it, despite the fact that you've never gotten any education or scaffolding and experience, you haven't seen it before. All of a sudden, you're 23 or 24, and I think a lot of immigrant people can relate to this. Are you East Indian? Mm-hmm, I'm South, yes. Oh, South. All of a sudden, you just wake up and it's like, well, where's your husband? It's like, well, for these past however many years, I was discouraged from having a boyfriend, from having a crush, from acknowledging this part of myself. And then there's this automatic switch that happens. And then you get a husband, you're supposed to be their everything in the bedroom, while still keeping all the puritanical and religious expectations and cultural expectations. So that, I think, is the real mind F when it comes to sex.

• 26:41Dax Shepard?

  And you've seen media. So you saw Fatal Attraction and you saw this movie. Like, you've seen a very heightened and romanticized and scored version of it all that's floating around.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yes. You've seen acting.

• 26:53Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 26:54Speaker 02

  And then you're like, I guess it should be like that. Yeah, I guess it's like almost watching the NBA secretly, and then one day being like, now I'm gonna play the best basketball of my life. You never got to practice, no one ever took you to the court before, you never had a coach.

• 27:06Dax Shepard?

  And I'm gonna measure myself against Michael Jordan, because that's the only thing I've seen.

• 27:10Speaker 02

  Yes. The sad part is, admitting that you're probably not the best at it is actually the ultimate defeat. You have to delusionally pretend that you just have it all figured out.

• 27:18Dax Shepard?

  Here's the paradox. To get a girl interested in you, she wants to have sex with someone who knows what they're doing, she probably doesn't know what she's doing. So you're exuding this confidence and knowledge in an attempt to be appealing to them. Very few young boys are gonna go out and be like, here's the sitch, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, I'm gonna come in about five seconds.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 27:36Dax Shepard?

  Are you down? Like, they know better. Intuitively, they know better than to do that. So it's a big paradoxical trap.

• 27:43Speaker 02

  It's interesting when you think about sex, because often, we think about the orgasm gap. And when I began, it was three to one. So for every three orgasms, a straight man had, a straight woman had one, now it's two to one. I think that's a huge win. When I first started in this space, the big question was, where's the clitoris? Like, how do you find that thing? And now, we're all like, everybody, it's right there. So there's definitely improvements. But I also have so much empathy for how hard it is to be a man. I have a class on MasterClass, The Art of Sex Appeal. When you do a MasterClass, they research all of your stuff and they put together a curriculum for you because they don't expect Usher to sit there and, you know, write 50 pages of a curriculum. So for me, they provided this and you obviously get to tweak and tailor and rewrite it.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  But the section on how to have better sex for a woman was all about multiple spots, multiple orgasms, embracing yourself, rejecting social sexual scripts, et cetera. And the section on men or people with penises was really just how to last longer. I'm like, that's it? That's all we get? Every position was designed for how to last longer. I'm like, how incredibly unfair is this? Also in consideration of the fact that from an evolutionary perspective, a man who comes quick is the hero of the town. He's going to pass on his genes. What is it taking, four hours? So I think that there's something to be said for how none of us have really gotten the long end of the stick. Even those with the longest penis.

• 28:58Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I'm gonna now share something personally that happened to me that I thank God for my whole life, which is I met a girl and she was a lot older than me. She was probably 21 when I was 15. And I think it was a surprise to her we were hooking up as well.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  I should say I'm sorry that happened to you.

• 29:14Dax Shepard?

  I love this and I couldn't be more grateful for this. I think that age gap made her confident enough to go, stop, stop, stop. I'm gonna tell you what to do. And she broke it all down, the clitoris, everything for me at 15. And I remember thinking, well, what a crazy gift I got. I think she saved me a decade of trying to figure stuff out.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  Do you know what's great? Did that then create a culture of accepting women as the experts of their own body?

• 29:43Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Because it doesn't stop with that partner, right? I learn stuff every day. I am blown away by that. My whole life's work, I'm just constantly learning new terms. I didn't know that an upside down pineapple said you were a swinger.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  I just learned this recently.

• 29:57Dax Shepard?

  Tell me more about that. You wear a keychain or something?

• 30:00Speaker 02

  You come to someone's house, if there's an upside down pineapple, it's a signifier. If they go out to a club, you wear an upside down pineapple, it's a way of creating some lubrication, make it easier to ask the question.

• 30:09Dax Shepard?

  I'm now glancing at all your jewelry.

• 30:12Speaker 02

  I just do this this weekend. I got a whole wardrobe thing to redo.

• 30:16Dax Shepard?

  Wow, upside down pineapple.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  I've heard it recently too.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I am curious if that then started a culture versus the culture that a lot of men come into where it's like, you have to teach me about my body. You have to be the one to show me a whole new world.

• 30:30Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I mean, the guy's supposed to explain to the woman?

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 30:32Dax Shepard?

  Yes, that's not gonna work. Not for young people.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Not for anyone.

• 30:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:36Dax Shepard?

  The asterisk of all that would be certainly her playbook. I couldn't graph it perfectly onto every woman. Everyone has their own idiosyncrasies and their own specific desires and pressures and how much contact, but the architecture of that was very informative. You're not gonna just be able to pump me for 90 seconds and make this wonderful for me. Okay, great. There's more going on. Tell me what's going on. And just the knowledge that these other things need to be considered and explored and questioned and figured out was helpful as all hell.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:11Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 31:31Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation. And I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.

• 32:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 32:05Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  It was a mess. I need a new one.

• 32:08Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired, and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic. The experts agree.

• 32:29Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic, and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex.

• 33:13Dax Shepard?

  It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere, whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I get to talk to folks I admire like crazy and ask them virtually any question that I want to. I can't imagine a better way to spend my time. But even dream jobs have some not-so-dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work.

• 33:57Dax Shepard?

  Now, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it, start to finish. Cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. So you and your team can focus on what matters most, which for me is, are they obsessed with male bodies on the same level as I am?

• 34:18Speaker 01

  They never are.

• 34:19Dax Shepard?

  To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com.

• 34:25Dax Shepard?

  We get support from Instagram teen accounts. So we talk a lot on this show about how the world is different now than when we were growing up. And one of the biggest differences is obviously social media. And I think a lot of people wonder, okay, what's actually being done to make it safer for teenagers?

• 34:41Speaker 01

  Which is a fair question.

• 34:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so Instagram has got something called teen accounts and they come with automatic protections built in by default. So anyone between 13 and 17 is automatically placed into this experience. They get age appropriate content settings, contact limits, so that by default, only people they're already connected to can message them. And time management tools, daily time limit reminders, and also sleep mode that mutes notifications from 10:00 PM to 7:00 AM.

• 35:08Speaker 01

  Sleep mode is genius.

• 35:10Dax Shepard?

  Right? And here's the thing, for anyone under 16, a parent has to give permission to change any of those settings to be less strict. The guardrails are on and Instagram keeps building new safety features to create age appropriate experiences for teens.

• 35:25Speaker 01

  I am really glad Instagram is helping to give parents peace of mind with teen accounts.

• 35:29Dax Shepard?

  Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  I know a lot of people who have a really great sex life or had a very good formative sex life, people with vulvas specifically. It's because they had sex with other women and that allowed them to get the idea that their pleasure mattered, that it belonged and part of the conversation. Also too, just empathizing with the drive, you can't even relate or imagine to the drive of a teenager, specifically with testosterone. They'll say or do anything, just the desire to come is probably equivalent to starving.

• 36:12Dax Shepard?

  I appreciate that you're acknowledging that. And when you talk to especially dudes my age that are now not afraid to talk about what they were doing from 12 till 20. Dudes are masturbating sometimes like eight times a day. Everyone has a story of like getting busted by their mom and they're somewhere they shouldn't be doing and they just fucking gotta do it.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just heard the story about one of my male friends who in seventh grade. During class was getting a handjob from this girl.

• 36:39Dax Shepard?

  Oh my goodness.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  This is like a friend of mine I know very well. And I was like, what? But yes, that's the drive. No fear.

• 36:47Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  The only thing that matters is getting off. And then I think maybe unfortunately for the girl, the only thing that sort of matters is pleasuring him.

• 36:57Speaker 02

  But you don't know what crazy things he said to her before. He's starving.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:01Speaker 02

  He will say anything. And I relate, don't get me wrong. I think that I have a really high sex drive. And even now, I do my best not to suffer from presentism. I have a sex ed series with Crash Course and the Kenzie Institute that's for teens. And it can be really easy to kind of use your 40-year-old brain to rationalize. It's not the same. I ran track and field and I was away at camp and I was masturbating like in a bed beside a stranger. I didn't want to do that.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:26Speaker 02

  I didn't want to. I felt so much shame. I've masturbated before in cars, parked on the side of the road, on airplanes. I didn't want that life.

• 37:35Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  But it was like a compulsion.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Insatiable compulsion, right?

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 02

  Sometimes I don't want to eat that Krispy Kreme, but it's there. It's getting eaten.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:43Dax Shepard?

  Now, I think we should talk about the interesting societal pressures. So conventionally, what was preventing this communication is for the young woman to know what she wants exactly would somehow be telling on herself that she's slutty or a whore. That that knowledge would somehow infer they're fighting that, right? Like if I don't want to come across as a whore. This was the old architecture and of course, we hate it. And then the boy is going, I'm supposed to be a pro at this and I'm supposed to fuck you like we're in a porno and for as long as you want it. And so the person that needs the most instruction in this scenario is the boy. And he's the one supposed to be the know-it-all. And then the one who's got the information is probably disincentivized to share the information.

• 38:26Dax Shepard?

  So like what a terrible construction for communication to happen or learning or anything.

• 38:31Speaker 02

  I think in best case scenario, the woman has the information. But even for me, I still come across women in my age group who don't masturbate or never masturbated. So some of them don't even have that basic information of how do I get off? I genuinely have so much faith for Gen Z and Gen Alpha, which I think is the one behind them, for the conversations they get to hear. And just again, the basic knowledge of where things are and what's supposed to feel pleasurable. And we were even talking to my niece and nephew about the clitoris. And they were like, oh yeah, we all develop female first and the clitoris is just this, penis is that. I feel much better for them. But I do think that even having a woman, maybe 10, 20 years ago, who knew what she liked was a bit rare.

• 39:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 39:10Speaker 02

  That 21-year-old is actually a pioneer. Because I didn't know what was going on at 21.

• 39:15Dax Shepard?

  So I watched the masterclass. As always, masterclass, beautifully produced. They do such a bang them up job.

• 39:21Speaker 02

  They do.

• 39:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so part one is better, hotter and more passionate sex. And you start with foreplay. So let's discuss foreplay because I think a lot of people have a singular view of what foreplay is.

• 39:34Speaker 02

  I think of foreplay as engagement that is sexual that is not going to get you off. So I take oral sex out of foreplay because for many people, specifically those of all of us, that's core play. And foreplay can sound like the appetizer to dinner and appetizers are optional. So I like to differentiate foreplay from core play. But foreplay is anything that is erotic in nature that's not going to get you off. So that's like dirty talk, even for yourself. Showering and shaving and selecting an underwear and panty that match is a part of foreplay, right? It's preparing your body for sexual release and for tension to be gone. I also love the Kama Sutra for this reason because it gives all these incredible ideas for foreplay. You may have heard the stat before that all bodies get hard and wet. It takes around 12 to 20 minutes to become fully erect.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Some people up to 40 minutes. But when you hear that and your idea of foreplay is making out and a little bit of a handjob, you're like, we about seven minutes in and we're out of ideas. Why not tell each other some sexy stories or make up some fiction, draw each other? In the Kama Sutra, they said that every good lover should have an easel by their bedside to like draw their lover naked. Playing games, perfuming, there's so many different things we can do when we expand foreplay aside from engaging with the genitals or major erogenous zones to just getting somebody ready to feel something beautiful.

• 40:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we had an expert on, I can't remember exactly who, but they broke down the two different arousal types. And they seem to be heavily gendered.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Are you talking about spontaneous versus responsive?

• 41:00Dax Shepard?

  Yep, this plays into that nicely.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Let's hit that again.

• 41:03Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, let's hit it again.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  So the idea that spontaneous desire is what was experienced in that class that day. He's like, this teacher is talking about algebra, but I gots to get mine.

• 41:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  Right? And it's an overcoming, it's what you see in the notebook and in movies, right? You're just drawn to that person. It's animalistic. It's irrational. I just need you.

• 41:21Dax Shepard?

  And generally, it's brain first. So it's the brain has a fantasy, the brain has a thought, the brain's thinking about sex, and then the body's got to catch up.

• 41:28Speaker 02

  Yes, I've actually never heard it worded that way. That's perfect.

• 41:31Dax Shepard?

  And then the other version, which is body first.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  You killed that. I expected to come here to learn, and so I'm happy to be getting some new stuff.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  In that way, if we're saying a lot of women are responsive, response first, is that what it is?

• 41:43Dax Shepard?

  That's what our previous expert said.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, then when that means body first, I would have expected the other way around.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  That's why I like it, because brain first sounds like sapiosexuality or demisexuality, where there has to be a connection.

• 41:56Speaker 01

  Right.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  But it's not that. It's like you turn yourself on, your brain decides to start pumping those neurochemicals.

• 42:01Dax Shepard?

  It's launching these fantasies.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  Yes, and then your body starts to throb and it needs it. Whereas with body first, it's that you're not thinking about it, you don't feel it in the brain, but once somebody's engaging with you and performing foreplay.

• 42:14Dax Shepard?

  It's hairplay for you. It could be innocuous hairplay, and then all of a sudden your scalp is tingly, and now other parts of your body, right? And now, your bodies are aroused, and then your brain goes, ooh, I want sex.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  Right, your brain is lagging. I see, I see, I see. Oh, that's interesting.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Which also kind of speaks to multi-dimensional roles. I've been doing a lot of studying recently about dual mating strategy. It makes me kind of reflect on that a little bit. Even the most monogamous animals are likely to be monogamous 88% of the time. There's still that 12% that requires that, but with dual mating strategy, it's essentially that you choose one partner that would be a good parent and a caregiver and provider, and you choose another that you're sexually attracted to, who has the superior genes.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 42:55Speaker 02

  There's something to reflect on, on that for why in longer-term relationships, it does become heavily based on responsive desire versus spontaneous desire.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  That's really interesting, because I think for women especially, you feel like you really need to be both of those things. You need to be super sexually desirable, and you need to be a good mom, a nurturer. You have to be all of it to be a good woman.

• 43:23Dax Shepard?

  I think it's universal.

• 43:24Speaker 02

  It's universal.

• 43:25Dax Shepard?

  That's Esther's point, right, is that we ask of our partners to be all of the things. A provider, a confidant, a best friend, then elusive and intriguing and novel. We want our partners to be every single thing. The best dad and the hottest, most unavailable dude to fuck me.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Yes. Naturally, as you get older and you stop having that insatiable sex drive, and then you have a partner that you have this stable, loving relationship with that's heavily based on like trust and comfort. The reason why I really like what you said about brain versus body first, it also just invites you then to bring spontaneous desire back into your relationship by turning yourself on first. Listening to an erotic book, telling yourself erotic stories, all the sort of tips I gave before, giving a long shower for yourself, figuring out what turns you on.

• 44:06Dax Shepard?

  And then there's also asking questions like, are you open to double penetration? Or not open to, but like, do you desire? How do you feel about double penetration? There's a lot of different questions that force your brain to start considering sex.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Especially because, you know, when you go to a restaurant from a different country, if I asked you, what do you want? And you're like, I don't know, right? So I think a lot of times with sex, we often say to somebody, but what do you want? Tell me what you want. And without acknowledging that many of us were never given a menu. We were never shown a variety. I mean, if we were, it was through a variety of porn categories that may not necessarily be applicable with our partners. So I think having those questions that are pointed allows somebody a chance to reflect on something they may have never even considered before.

• 44:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And again, I'm going to speak in very broad stereotypes, but I'm friends with many, many married people. And one great comforting thing, did you watch Couples Therapy? We love it with Orna. I didn't watch Couples Therapy. You must watch it.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, you must. And it's coming back this month.

• 45:01Dax Shepard?

  It's so fucking good. But what you will learn, that across the board, in all relationships, someone wants more sex than the other.

• 45:08Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:08Dax Shepard?

  That's just standard. It could be the woman, it could be the man. In my circle, generally, guys want more from their wives. I think it's really helpful to guys to understand, you can be at work thinking of what you're going to do and you're there. But if what you want is more sex, you need to bring her body into where your brain is at. And foreplay is the only answer for that. You don't want her to get in the mood for sex seven minutes into penetration.

• 45:32Speaker 02

  It's a lot of people's reality. And it's still a win if you get into the mood. But I do agree that the best case scenario is where we want to want it. And we want that together. And that's also where you can supersede scheduling sex and go to intention setting, where we can sit and be like, we both really want to do this. So when do we have the time versus get out the planner? Let's figure this out together. What have you found out that has worked for you? If this is not too much of a personal question, but what can you offer your partner that gets them in the headspace?

• 46:00Speaker 01

  Acts of service, I know for her. For all the women that you're talking about, we're in a big friend group and the men that you're saying who want more sex, that's the way to get it from these women, for sure.

• 46:11Speaker 02

  We call that chore play.

• 46:12Dax Shepard?

  Ooh, chore play. Maybe we should really put a fine point on that. So chore play, is it self-evident?

• 46:18Speaker 01

  I guess so. I mean, more just like, I thought of you. I thought of you, I thought, what is gonna make your life easier and our life easier? And I did it. That is hot. That's a way to establish some foreplay.

• 46:30Dax Shepard?

  I'll co-sign on that. Yeah, I think I wanted to do the version, which I like doing. Let's go to dinner and let's talk and I'll pay really good attention to you and ask a lot of questions. And yes, probably more acts of service and not like out of a romantic movie is more effective.

• 46:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:44Dax Shepard?

  But I think a lot of guys think, oh, I go down on her and then she'll want to have sex. But you're including oral and just core sex. So no, that's not gonna be foreplay.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  No, that's not gonna be it. Or they think it's like slapping on the ass or like squeezing the tits or being like, it's been a while.

• 46:57Dax Shepard?

  It's been a while.

• 46:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's just pressure.

• 46:59Dax Shepard?

  That's always a libido blaster. It's been a while, it's a little guilt, a little shame.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  It's just knowing it. I talk about turn on triggers. And of course, there's infinite ways of thinking about these, similar to love languages. But by and large, most people kind of fit in different categories. Like, my husband would fit underneath essentialist or environmentalist. It has to be the environment. He's very cognizant. We were having sex last night and the window was open and we could hear people talking outside. And that's hot to me. What I do is just like, let me just set my watch when he's gonna get up and close these windows. And sure enough, He's going to, so that will take him out. And for me, I just like direct carnal, almost teenage desire. I just wanna feel like you just can't even help yourself around me. So a text that's very dirty talk will hit for me. For him, it's preparing the room, making sure that the kids can't hear us,

• 47:48Speaker 02

  putting on music, making sure that he has time to shower. All of those are essential for him to feel like, okay, now.

• 47:54Dax Shepard?

  Right, getting rid of all the distractions.

• 47:57Speaker 02

  And I don't care, I could have sex on a pile of dirty newspapers.

• 48:00Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  With everybody watching. So that's the importance of acknowledging those small differences. Whenever I hear couples talk about that, of course, it's normal to have imbalances. It's actually a great privilege to have imbalances in libido or in anything, because it creates the culture of figuring it out. I have talked to a lot of couples, specifically on reality shows, like a friend of mine was on The Bachelor, and you start out hot and heavy.

• 48:21Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 48:22Speaker 02

  And you have this amazing chemistry. And then life happens, and you don't have that anymore. And now it's really hard to have that conversation, because the story that you told yourself about your relationship is that we have amazing sexual chemistry. It doesn't require any work. And if we do, then something is fundamentally wrong, and our story no longer works. So that's really difficult. So I'm like, if you start off with incompatibility, you're off to the races, because now you have a built-in culture of having those kinds of discussions. Because the truth of the matter is, the pendulum's gonna be swinging in opposite ways, and like, once in a while, you're gonna line up. But most of the time, you're gonna be doing different things.

• 48:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so I now know one of your erogenous zones is your lower back.

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:00Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and rubbing your lower back, what's the nerve?

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Pudendal.

• 49:03Dax Shepard?

  Now, what happens when the last thing you're thinking about is sex, you have something very important the next day, and your husband starts rubbing that erogenous zone? Are you not like, oh, fuck, he knows the math, and now he wants it? Do you not leap forward to like, well, he's just trying to fuck?

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:19Dax Shepard?

  It's hard to outsmart. In some way.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Well, it shouldn't be an outsmarting.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 49:25Dax Shepard?

  Well, if you want to have sex and you would like your partner to be in the mood, I think that's a totally fine pursuit, right?

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 49:31Dax Shepard?

  And then so you know, oh, great. So she likes this. I gave her a glass of wine. Now I'm gonna rub her. But you're like, fuck, he got me a wine. He's rubbing my pannua's nerve. I know where this is going. And when I don't like this, knowing where this is going, like, how do we deal with that?

• 49:44Speaker 02

  There's something about that that feels like, don't try to outsmart my body. Don't be sneaky about it. It's not sexy to be sneaky. That coercive sneakiness, it just kind of feels cowardly a little bit. Like, I want you to own your desire or own what you're looking for. Look me in the eye and have that conversation. If you're feeling my energy is tired and overwhelmed, it would be more helpful for you to be like, I'm gonna go downstairs right now and pack the kids lunch from now so we can sleep in five minutes more. That would be more of a turn on than being like, oh, she's tired. Let me just do that lower back trick. And then that feels like, really? So I think it's not looking for the cheat codes. Instead, trying to make intimacy something that we voluntarily, excitedly, when we have the intention, we want to do this thing together. And so we're on the same team of wanting to do it.

• 50:29Dax Shepard?

  Sounds like chores are bigger than we're... It might be really the headline's chores.

• 50:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's huge.

• 50:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now, hold on. You're very smart. You're like, fuck, he just offered to make the lunches. He never makes them. He's gonna fucking... I know what he's up to.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  By rubbing the pituitary.

• 50:44Dax Shepard?

  Gland, yeah. Releasing some HGH.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Even if you like it, that's not something off of your plate.

• 50:51Dax Shepard?

  Listen, we know how the brain works. What gives you dopamine is the unknown. So I'm gonna rub your pumice nerve sometimes.

• 51:00Speaker 01

  Pumice stone?

• 51:01Dax Shepard?

  And then I'm gonna pick up my book and read.

• 51:03Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 51:04Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna rub her pumice gland and then I'm gonna pick up my book and read.

• 51:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I see.

• 51:10Dax Shepard?

  And she'll be like, huh, that's weird. I thought he was trying to fuck. No, he just rubbed my thing. I think if you mix in enough unexpected outcomes, now every time the pituitary gland gets rubbed, you too don't know.

• 51:22Speaker 02

  It's a deliciousness of erotic ambiguity. And we lose that in long-term relationships. And that's why toxic relationships or toxic dick is... Often so revered, but erotic ambiguity is when I know that you're attracted to me. I know that I'm attracted to you. We know that there's something there, but we don't know if we're gonna have sex. There's this question, and sometimes in long-term relationships, that question gets dissolved. And it's like, well, let's do it. It's like, let's just play in that area of the unknown. Like, I love to pretend I'm not gonna give it up. And I need you to believe in your heart that I might not. Right. Like, I require that, for that to sort of sit deliciously between us. And so, your partner doing that, something to get you turned on, and then pulling back.

• 52:06Dax Shepard?

  You're also just going back to like, date three, which is, I'm gonna do this thing. It could just be, I'm showing her I'm good at a foot massage, and it can end there.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:14Dax Shepard?

  Cause that'll be a win. Cause she doesn't know I'm good at a foot massage. There's like little wins, cause it's not a foregone conclusion. So it's like, I think the more you can play with that, the better, the more exciting.

• 52:25Speaker 02

  Like the little pineapple in the house. You go in, you see it's there, but you don't know for sure.

• 52:30Dax Shepard?

  If you're gonna get invited to swing.

• 52:32Speaker 02

  Right, yeah. Right.

• 52:34Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so let's go into core play. You start with being multi-orgasmic. Is everyone potentially multi-orgasmic?

• 52:41Speaker 02

  Yeah. An orgasm is a sudden release of sexual tension. It's interesting, because the brain is the biggest sex organ. And so, I can orgasm in my sleep, so that's it. But other than that, it's only clitoris for me. I can do clitoral plus, that provides a different sensation. But I have friends, or I know of people who can orgasm from nipple play, or from their toes being sucked, or back of the knee, I've heard it before, anus, of course, one of them. Of course, penetration without any outer clitoral stimulation that occurs. So, some people can be. If you can orgasm one way, that's a win. There's a delight in looking to see where your pleasure potential is, but it should never be the goal. That becomes exhausting. So I balk against this sometimes, because it can feel like,

• 53:25Speaker 02

  well, if you're not multi-orgasmic, you're not really doing the sex right. And instead, it's more just enjoying and embracing what you have, and then delighting in the fact that there could possibly be more.

• 53:34Dax Shepard?

  Again, it's back to, you're trying to evaluate whether you are good or bad on it, and that seems to be the only metric a guy knows about.

• 53:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:42Dax Shepard?

  So it's like, how else is one to evaluate themselves, other than the orgasm?

• 53:47Speaker 02

  But then multi says that one's not good enough. There's gotta be many, 17 times in a session or something. And then I also just reflect on the fact that most men don't identify with being multi-orgasmic, and that's never like, oh. Really?

• 54:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:01Speaker 02

  I'm sorry that hasn't happened for you. Maybe with the right partner. Uh huh. Like, this is what works for me. I like it. And everyone's like, that's good enough. So it's both and.

• 54:10Dax Shepard?

  I didn't know about the A-spot. Can we talk about the A-spot?

• 54:13Speaker 02

  Yes. So the A-spot is a sensitive region. So it's the anterior fornix, which means towards the belly button, there's like a ridge that's there. And if you press forward, there's spongy tissue. And so the cervix is not pleasurable, but the A-spot is. So it's a little bit forward.

• 54:28Dax Shepard?

  And it's just above it?

• 54:29Speaker 02

  It's just above.

• 54:30Dax Shepard?

  If you're on your leg or your back.

• 54:31Speaker 02

  So if your G-spot, or your G-region, or your inner clitoris, whatever you want to call it, is about a couple of inches in and forward, the A-spot is probably the middle finger all the way to the top, which is why for most people who get stimulation that way, a finger or a toy that can provide that consistent reliable pressure is probably better than a penis. Unless your penis is plated with gold, a little curved, and can last a long time because your ancestors lived in a region where there weren't a lot of prey around. So you had the luxury.

• 55:01Dax Shepard?

  Now, G-spot, there's no such thing. This was a revelation.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I kind of gave you the slashes there.

• 55:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  So at the end of the day, I'm not a fan of telling anybody that what they experience is not real. Whatever you believe to be true is true. And so I actually just got a O-shot last week. And essentially what the doctor does is they take blood from you and then they spin it to get the platelets. And then they inject it in your G-spot and in your clitoris to make it larger and more sensitive.

• 55:26Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 55:27Speaker 02

  And she's very much a believer of the G-spot. But a lot of modern scientists today will tell you the G-spot doesn't exist. Instead, as we know, the clitoris is shaped like a wishbone. And so it's just part of the clitoris, which even that is arguable because some people don't believe the vestibules are part of the clitoris.

• 55:43Speaker 01

  When did you get that? Last week?

• 55:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  And how fast is that? Like, have you noticed a difference?

• 55:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 55:50Speaker 01

  You haven't.

• 55:51Speaker 02

  No, I wish I did. I've never had an orgasm before from penetration alone, without clitoral stimulation at the same time. Two-thirds of women, that's going to be their reality. There's something really beautiful, I think, about that. You know, I'm a part of this league, but of course, I'm open and expanded to more.

• 56:03Dax Shepard?

  I want whatever I can't have.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  I'm just interested in experiencing more. Have you had a prostate orgasm before?

• 56:08Dax Shepard?

  No, but I'd love one.

• 56:09Speaker 02

  Right?

• 56:10Dax Shepard?

  Absolutely. I'd be up for it in a second.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Maybe you could take a shot.

• 56:13Dax Shepard?

  Definitely. Give me their number and see if they do prostate.

• 56:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, they do. They have P for sure, where they enlarge the coronal ridge of the penis to make that area more sensitive and large. Whoa.

• 56:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. They're doing things.

• 56:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're doing things out here. But it also does like increase lubrication. The way I would describe having it, because I've had it done before, is if it happened and I was asleep, I probably wouldn't have known that it happened. Now that I know it's happened, I think I'm just more like, maybe that's from this.

• 56:40Dax Shepard?

  Well, you're getting into the world of placebo.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Which is fine.

• 56:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, which is real. Placebo is real.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, well, I just want to put a point on the G-spot and the A-spot. So what you're looking for, for our Six Guys listener, is kind of a come hither motion.

• 56:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, for the G, it's come hither. For the A, it's more like that. So it's like pressing the button for it. And then the G, you can kind of reflect on the fact that it's a larger area. So you're stroking that entire area versus a spot which you tap on.

• 57:06Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 57:06Speaker 02

  So the A-spot is more of a spot. It's hard on the fingers because you're way deep in there, so it's almost like that.

• 57:12Dax Shepard?

  You advise shoulder movements.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, it takes some strength there. But the G-spot is more of a region, so you're petting the region.

• 57:19Dax Shepard?

  Squirting. You run straight at squirting.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 57:22Dax Shepard?

  Let's hear about squirting.

• 57:23Speaker 02

  What do you guys think of squirting?

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I'm not against it if it happened.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, do you believe?

• 57:28Speaker 01

  Oh, do I believe it? I bel- uh, well, Howard says it's P. Howard Stern.

• 57:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, there was a guy, and she goes into that. They analyzed the ejaculate, and they on the Stern Show at Doctor Phone that was your I, of course, was introduced to it in pornography. And I was like, absolutely, some visual signal of it, in the same way girls get a visual signal, it's so exciting. And to not go too deep into the story, but I was doing a movie in Chicago and I was talking to the bartender. Deep into this long conversation, she said she doesn't hook up with many people because she has an embarrassing thing. And I'm like, oh, God, what is the embarrassing thing? And then she said, I'm a squirter. And I was like, oh my god, I'm so up for this.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  You think that was a pickup line? I do.

• 58:15Dax Shepard?

  It definitely worked. And so I definitely experienced the full-fledged.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  So she did?

• 58:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 58:21Speaker 02

  That's amazing. And there are studies that say that it's just sexual incontinence. It's like both, because you need a strong pelvic floor in order to squirt and expel. But some people have a weak pelvic floor, so they just pee on you. I think I like the consensus that it's coming from the urethra. We don't have what men have, where you cannot pee and ejaculate at the same time.

• 58:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  It's one or the other, and we don't have that. So it's very likely that you're getting some urine in there. But you also have the Bartholin gland, you have the Skene's gland. And someone described it to me, like, you know, when you're gonna eat something sour? Your mouth salivates. And some people, they salivate so much, it's almost like an eek. It squirts out.

• 59:02Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  So there can be some peoples whose glands, they react that way. So they do sort of eek out.

• 59:08Dax Shepard?

  But your recommendation was like, if you wanna try this or explore this, pee before sex, so you don't have in your mind, oh no, I'm gonna pee.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  And then also too, the technique to doing it is we use around the clock. So you do various different spots, and you go around to P-spot, and then you go A-spot, and you go G-spot, while you're doing outer clitoral stimulation. And while all this is happening, you, as the person with the vulva, are bearing down. It's different than peeing. Bearing down is almost like you're pushing a marble out of your vulva.

• 59:34Dax Shepard?

  Well, you're giving birth.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  Giving birth to the squirt, yeah.

• 59:37Dax Shepard?

  Giving birth to the squirt, that's my next book.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  So that's the thing too, I think people sometimes, when they're trying to squirt, release is pleasurable. Sure. So if you have a partner who's down for it, and you put down a towel, and you're bearing down, who cares if it's a little bit of pee, right? If they're into that, it's so fascinating too, because, you know, like, golden showers are like a very taboo thing. And squirting is perfectly normal. And majority of the time, like, sir, you are lapping up at least some urine, and you're loving it. So bodies are cool. Why do we think that's taboo, golden showers? I think it's the power dynamics of it. You urinate on things that you don't respect.

• 1:00:12Dax Shepard?

  You put urine in the toilet, you think it's something the body has to expel. It is antiseptic, weirdly. It's not dangerous by any stretch. But yes, I think because it goes in a toilet, we think it's dirty.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  But that's so silly because it's all fluid. There's so much fluid happening.

• 1:00:28Dax Shepard?

  We love saliva when we're kissing. We love vaginal lubricant. We love everything.

• 1:00:32Speaker 01

  Come, like, it's all fluid.

• 1:00:34Speaker 02

  The sex positivity coming from this side is just radiating. Because most people are not relating to what you're saying right now.

• 1:00:40Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:00:41Speaker 02

  Most people are like, do not.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  Have turned it off.

• 1:00:43Speaker 02

  Come on, guys, it's just bodily fluids.

• 1:00:45Dax Shepard?

  Everyone in our friendship circle had watched this same TV show. And it had a sex scene that was, by my accounts, awesome. And other people were freaked out by it. And it gave rise to a really great conversation. And I think the thing people were missing is so much of sex is, I trust you enough. And I'm signaling to you, I would do things with you that you don't do with normal people. And that in itself is very rewarding and such a good signal. That they're hung up on the like, she spit in his mouth. Right, because you can't spit in your coworker's mouth. And you don't spit in your mom's mouth. Like, yes, because this is the only person.

• 1:01:29Dax Shepard?

  It's not the spitting in the mouth, it's what it's symbolizing.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Nothing about you is gross to me.

• 1:01:34Dax Shepard?

  Right. Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:01:37Dax Shepard?

  That sense of, wow, my whole self you don't think is gross is lovely.

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  That is the most acceptance you can have.

• 1:01:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay, prostate orgasm. I think any guy who saw American Pie, didn't Stifler get a prostate orgasm?

• 1:01:51Speaker 02

  Did he? Did he get milk?

• 1:01:52Dax Shepard?

  I think so, yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  So many people would not even dare try. There is still a lot of homosexual stigma around that part, which is insane. That your own body, even the nipples, have that stigma.

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, my husband, I mean, he's half-black, half-white. But even when he was talking about it to his friends, they were like, exploring your own body is sus. It's gay.

• 1:02:13Dax Shepard?

  It's gay.

• 1:02:13Speaker 01

  So crazy.

• 1:02:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and he loves his nipples, that's his favorite thing now.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  That's his thing, he loves his nipples. He's like, I would ask for that. He didn't even know that that was a part of like what he enjoyed. He's like, but not I'll ask that of anybody.

• 1:02:23Dax Shepard?

  I know, it is really, really funny. I want to talk to these guys and like, do you think you'll be engaged in some kind of sexual activity with a woman? And something will start feeling so good that you'll be like, I want a guy now. When they walk through that, are they afraid that's what's gonna happen?

• 1:02:40Speaker 02

  I think that they're afraid that their partner and them will break up and their partner will tell other people and that they will assume that they're gay. And I have talked to enough women who have said or done things that reinforce this. So I completely understand why men think this way.

• 1:02:55Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  And you see what happens in the news, kind of somewhat recently, it was Kanye and Amber Rose, where she outed him for liking anal. And that actually became a joke in a movie. That's when you're like, I'll just keep this to myself.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:07Speaker 02

  I'll go without it, right?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  But it's so funny, because women, I don't think, have that stigma. It's like hot if a woman is touching herself or exploring.

• 1:03:16Speaker 02

  Now.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  Maybe that's changed over time.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Dax Shepard?

  Well, clitorectomies, I think there's a long history of women aren't supposed to be enjoying it. They're a vessel for the dude, and then hopefully a baby comes out.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  I mean more in general, if a man told their friend, oh, she was touching herself, they're not gonna be like, oh, she might be gay. They'd be like, that's hot.

• 1:03:35Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:03:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the difference for men there, which that sucks for men.

• 1:03:40Speaker 02

  Well, for prostate orgasms, you can either go kind of similar interior wall, two inches in, then pressing forward, and then the milking sensation, it's the whole region. The prostate's the size of a walnut. Or you can get a toy like the magic wand, which is really powerful, and put that up against the gooch. And a lot of people, it's similar to the G-spot. It's not it by itself.

• 1:04:00Dax Shepard?

  You call the perineum the gooch?

• 1:04:01Speaker 02

  Yes, the taint.

• 1:04:02Dax Shepard?

  The gooch.

• 1:04:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:04Dax Shepard?

  Like Gucci, that feels elevated.

• 1:04:05Speaker 02

  It's the Gucci, baby. It's that hairless strip of wonder.

• 1:04:08Dax Shepard?

  Part of that, which we were just talking about, is you talk about this sexual social script. And one of the ways you can counteract this in your male partner is to say how manly it is that they are trying things.

• 1:04:23Speaker 02

  Yes, that it's hot that they explore their body. It's interesting, because when you speak to a lot of women in long-term relationships, the complaint is how boring sex is, how vanilla it is. Yet, for so much of that man's life, he was stuck between this rock and a hard place, between trying to perform uber masculinity of I know everything, I am the leader, and the protection of the tightrope of heterosexuality, of constantly trying to prove that you're heterosexual. I don't relate to that. I don't have to wake up every day and think, well, what am I gonna do to make sure that people know?

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, girls on the playground weren't calling each other gay nonstop.

• 1:04:54Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:04:54Dax Shepard?

  Boys, that was the singular insult you heard nonstop.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  You can't have one experience or be attracted to one person or watch one gay porn film and enjoy it without that meaning that like, well, you have to abandon your heterosexuality altogether. So it's difficult for, I think, for men to decouple themselves from the social sexual scripts much more than women.

• 1:05:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah. If you heard that a woman you knew hooked up with another woman in college, you'd be like, hot. And if you heard that a dude hooked up with another dude in college, you'd be like, so you're gay? And now what? You're just living this lie? Clearly you want that.

• 1:05:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:05:26Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We get support from our sponsor, Lilly. For adults with obesity or with excess weight and weight-related medical problems, it's time to find out about Foundo or for Glee Pro. Foundo is a once-daily prescription GLP-1 medicine used with a reduced calorie diet and increased physical activity to help adults with obesity or some adults with overweight who also have weight-related medical problems to lose excess body weight and keep the weight off.

• 1:05:58Speaker 03

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• 1:06:38Speaker 03

  Foundo is available by prescription only in 0.8 mg, 2.5 mg, 5.5 mg, 9 mg, 14.5 mg, and 17.2 mg tablets. Learn more at foundo.lilly.com or call 1-800-LILY-RX. Now is perfect to talk to your doctor about Foundo.

• 1:07:02Dax Shepard?

  Okay, positions. Love it. Everyone should watch this masterclass because it's gonna be very educational. I know a dude from AA. I don't know why he decides to ask me this. And he's like, you know, I have sex with my wife and she rarely has an orgasm. I'm sure that's why she doesn't wanna fuck. I'm like, well, she using a vibrator? And he's like, no, should I get one? I'm like, yes, get this. And he's like, yeah, and then I wanna last. I'm like, here, reverse cowgirl, give her a vibrator and try that out.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:27Dax Shepard?

  And he came to the meeting and he's like, oh, my God, you need to tell every guy this. No one knows this. And he's now telling everyone in the meeting, have you talked to Dax? Get your wife a vibrator. Like, he was proselytizing. And he was already 45. And I'm like, that's the state of male education, is I just offhandedly suggest that. And he's like, oh, my God, this is incredible.

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  But also, I wish she had earlier been like, I think I wanna try bringing a toy to the scene.

• 1:07:56Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Taking that into her own hands, too.

• 1:07:59Dax Shepard?

  Right. But I think that's why this will be really helpful, is I was shocked to see that this person didn't know that at 45. So I have a hunch a lot of people will be watching this and they're like, oh, wow, okay, that's a great idea.

• 1:08:08Speaker 02

  It's so fascinating. The masterclass population is so tender and special. And this class on masterclass was rated gold, which is rare because I'm not amongst a league of sex classes there. It's not what you go to masterclass for. But a lot of people were watching it and the population is older. It's almost like you're more likely to have the information at 18 than you are at 75.

• 1:08:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:08:34Speaker 02

  And so they just have been doing it one way forever. And so they're like, this is what sex is. So why would I ask for a vibrator? It means so much to my husband to do it this particular way. And I value that. I value getting along versus getting my way. So this is the kind of sex that we have. So it's hugely revolutionary for people to introduce doggy style, a reverse cowgirl, and a vibrator. So this information, sometimes we think is common knowledge, is really not. Even for women, I think is so important to note, is that a question we're often asked in the early stages of dating is like, what's your favorite position? And you should be able to answer that based on your cycle. Well, during the luteal phase, I like that. During my ovulation phase, I like that because the position of your cervix is drastically different, your hormones are different. So I think that the position conversation gets overly

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  simplified, but there's a lot of rich knowledge to be shared there.

• 1:09:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Sex Drive, what is SAR? You say ideally everyone would be able to take SAR.

• 1:09:25Speaker 02

  Sexual Attitude Reassessment, and it's a 40-hour course. I've done two. So the first one that I did was in San Francisco, and we just watched porn for 40 hours. And the purpose of that is so that I see so much different varieties of what gets people off, that when you tell me, Monica, that you love nurse play and the sicker, more oozier the person is, the more you're turned on. I'm like, okay, you know, I just watched people do dog play. Yeah, you're not like shaken by it. Yeah, I'm like, oh, that makes sense. We had to watch one that was challenging for me to watch, which was genital nicking. So they use really sharp razors and they nick each other's genitals. And you have to watch that, and you focus on their faces and how much joy they're experiencing, and they're doing it with somebody who likes it, who

• 1:10:09Speaker 02

  accepts that part of them. And that's really hot. So you learn to find sort of the yum, despite if that's your jam or not. Yeah.

• 1:10:18Dax Shepard?

  Tell people about ethical porn.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Ethical porn essentially is porn where there's usually not like a studio involved. It's performer-first. The performers say what they're going to be doing versus coming into a scene with like a written script. You're going to squirt at minute 12, you're going to get anal, you're going to say this. There's a conversation around what you would like, what feels body-safe for you. And then it's also based on your pleasure. It's not an encouragement to fake or act or perform. And so rather than trying to force people to have multiple orgasms within a constructed environment, they say, what environment would allow you to have multiple orgasms? Okay, great, let's create something around that. So Erica Lust, Balesa. Ethical porn usually tends to mean women, directors, or women-led studios, but there's options out there.

• 1:11:00Dax Shepard?

  This has nothing to do with this, but I just think a lot of guys can relate to watching the porn, it's the best thing you've ever seen. Second after you come, you're like, oh, my God, this guy is fucking disgusting. This whole thing is fucking disgusting.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  Can you give me an example? Why?

• 1:11:16Dax Shepard?

  Just a ton of porn, because you're so into it. You're great at ignoring all this stuff. Mostly with the guy, you're generally ignoring like, oh, my God, and he's doing that. The way he's talking, I can't say in this. It's all tolerable in pursuit. And then the second you come in, like the frontal lobe comes back online and you're out of the midbrain. You're like, oh, my God, I don't ever want to see this guy.

• 1:11:37Speaker 01

  But is that just you're projecting shame?

• 1:11:40Dax Shepard?

  It could be. It's very common.

• 1:11:41Speaker 01

  Or it's just cringe.

• 1:11:42Dax Shepard?

  I hear tons of guys say that.

• 1:11:44Speaker 02

  My sex life changed where I stopped thinking about sex as good in the moment. And it had to be good for three weeks after, which is the amount of time it takes to go and get HIV test. Right? So if I was really hot night and I was really attracted to somebody. But the next morning I woke up and I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe I'm going to run into that person. Or I felt fear of my sexual health. It wasn't a good sexual experience. So I challenge people to do the same thing with porn. If afterwards you have to scrub your history and do a rosemary, then like maybe just invest in some porn that doesn't make you feel that way. That's a good rule. Yeah.

• 1:12:17Dax Shepard?

  Let's talk about solo play and then I'll tease what you would get in part two. But solo play, I have no business saying this, but I think this is where it all needs to start. If you don't know what gives you pleasure by yourself, you are then going to rely on someone else to show you, which good luck. Maybe that person will arrive, but I just think it's a much better strategy to know exactly what you like.

• 1:12:39Speaker 02

  There's a male expert, which if you guys ever want a male sex expert, this guy Alex Grundy. I absolutely adore him, but he coaches men. It's so fascinating because I predominantly speak with women. I'm very women facing, and so I get the benefit of having millions of people in my community. And he has like a large community of people, but he has like 18 followers online. Because no man is going to hit the follow button because they're not going to admit.

• 1:13:04Dax Shepard?

  That's an admission that they want instruction.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  Yes, that they need help. But he says that one of the first thing he directs his clients to do is to do a masturbation session where they start with the top of their head, they massage their head, they get to their ears, then they touch their shoulders, every single part of their body with their genitals being last, and it has to last between 30 to 40 minutes. And then he also encourages them to make the most ridiculous sound that you can possibly imagine. Make the lowest sound, say the stupidest thing, and just play with delight in experiencing your own body first. And then again, you have the information to provide to somebody else. It's not a surprise to you what your body does when you're with somebody else. But it's

• 1:13:49Speaker 02

  interesting because I had a guest on my podcast who talked about this for women. And when she talked about it, she was like, I start with my head, I massage my head, and I go down to my shoulders. And then when Alex was describing it, I'm like, even I gotta try to keep a straight face here, and I gotta check my own shit, right?

• 1:14:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:05Speaker 02

  Because why is it silly or embarrassing?

• 1:14:07Dax Shepard?

  Again, you're pumping up against the gay thing.

• 1:14:09Speaker 01

  Or it's feminine versus masculine.

• 1:14:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:12Speaker 01

  Which is so unfair.

• 1:14:14Dax Shepard?

  But the dude's going like, oh, I'm feeling my shoulders. I'm feeling a man's shoulders. Why would I like that? You know, it's mired in all this.

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  You don't have to, because women aren't doing that. It's not like, oh, it's a girl's hand on my head.

• 1:14:25Dax Shepard?

  But again, women are being accused of being gay nonstop since they're a kid.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Right, I know. We have got to, what are we doing?

• 1:14:31Dax Shepard?

  I know. All this shit, it's so funny. All we ever deal with on this show is like downriver issues, right? Like 30 years in, what's the result of these little tiny things? There's like five fucking things driving 90% of all the shit we deal with later in society.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  So that's a challenge to everybody listening, is to have a solo session where you pleasure map your own body. If that doesn't feel accessible to you, that's totally fine. Ask a partner or go to a massage therapist. Those are trained experts at that for a reason. And ask for that specificity. Try everything, go slow, and can we talk about it as we explore together?

• 1:15:04Dax Shepard?

  That doesn't even cover all of part one, and then there's part two. And then in part two, you learn about the art of flirting, emotional connection, reigniting physical passion. Sexy Eye Triangle, will you please do it for me?

• 1:15:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 1:15:15Dax Shepard?

  Because I've seen it and it's powerful. Yeah, give it to Monica.

• 1:15:17Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:15:19Speaker 02

  I'm sorry.

• 1:15:20Speaker 01

  Oh my God.

• 1:15:21Speaker 02

  So I looked right into one of your eyes deeply.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:28Speaker 02

  And I looked down at your bottom of your body. I scanned your body and I dropped my chin. So when I look up again now, I'm in a submissive position. Oh wow. Yes.

• 1:15:39Dax Shepard?

  Sexy eye triangle.

• 1:15:40Speaker 02

  Really sexy.

• 1:15:41Dax Shepard?

  Creates chemistry. In your own dating life, were men so intimidated when they found out what your area of specialty was? Like we get into, like, everyone has this enormous fear they're not enough. And then you meet someone, it's like, fuck, this bitch knows everything about this. I'm gonna, she'll know all the things I'm doing wrong.

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  You must have a confident husband. Yes, but this is the real truth. So me and my husband started off as fuck buddies. At the time that I met him, I was on the fritz of deportation. I legally couldn't work in America and I just came out of a long distance tumultuous relationship. But I just finished my sexology certification. So I had all this new information and I just came out of this terrible relationship where the sex was bad. And I was like, I need to practice somewhere. He had just moved to a new spot in town. He lived five minutes from me. Proximity is huge. One of the most, number one determinants for if you're going to be compatible with somebody's proximity. And I say this to this day, if we were not walking distance, we would not be here today. So we're both in that same mindset. So when he found out that I studied sex for a living, he was like, great. I'll have sex with this girl.

• 1:16:43Speaker 02

  I'll learn stuff. So when I have sex with other people, I'll be great. So he came in with like a learner's mindset. I'm not here to show her or show her up. I'm genuinely here to learn to apply that to other places. So I think that culture was huge. Whenever I meet people in general, if I tell a man what I do, he asks for my credentials. If I tell a woman, she asks for my advice. So that just ends up being the separation. That's interesting. Yeah. Cause a man is like, what makes you qualified? A woman's like, okay, since we talking.

• 1:17:12Dax Shepard?

  Well, cause he went, she thinks I'm terrible at it. Why do you know? Who says you're an expert?

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  What makes you know something I don't? Right. And are you gonna reveal that I don't know? Right. Is that what you're, are you here because I don't know what I'm doing? Is that why you're hired? Yeah, exactly.

• 1:17:27Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna suss me out in seconds.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Oh my god. Right. What a gift though. I think the secret to being great in bed is admitting that you're probably not that great in bed. There is the person who can admit that, who's curious, who has a learner's mindset, a tourist mindset. Oh my gosh, this country's amazing. Show me around.

• 1:17:43Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:17:44Speaker 02

  This is wonderful. Wow, like what do you eat? What do you do? That light, that spark, that curiosity makes you good.

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, if you go to Rome and you're like, there's the Colosseum, yeah, I know about that.

• 1:17:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Dax Shepard?

  I already knew about the Colosseum.

• 1:17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  I'm just gonna put it like a conqueror here.

• 1:17:59Dax Shepard?

  I know everything about this place. I don't expose my ignorance.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  There's directives, you know, because men have the pressure to be dominant. I want to respect that. And a lot of women do like that. They're like, I don't want to make any more decisions. So you can be directive, like, I'm really great with my hands. Where do you want me to put them? So I'm still inviting your expertise while also showing my dominance in the area. So there's both.

• 1:18:19Dax Shepard?

  Well, this has been awesome. Also, I really encourage people to listen to Lovers, which is your podcast.

• 1:18:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, look at you.

• 1:18:26Dax Shepard?

  This has been a blast and titillating. I hope everyone checks out The Art of Sex Appeal and then listen to Lovers.

• 1:18:32Speaker 02

  Amen.

• 1:18:33Dax Shepard?

  Thanks for coming.

• 1:18:33Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 1:18:36Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned to hear Miss Monica correct all the facts that were wrong. It's okay, though. We all make mistakes.

• 1:18:45Dax Shepard?

  Never before here.

• 1:18:46Speaker 04

  For all their stuff, yeah.

• 1:18:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Oh, my God. Okay, so what are we doing here with your bangs? Let's just see.

• 1:18:52Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:18:52Dax Shepard?

  Well, hold on, I'm gonna raise this.

• 1:18:56Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:18:57Speaker 04

  I usually have shorter bangs.

• 1:18:59Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh. Well, how high up are you? Do you want the, like, how much off are you looking for?

• 1:19:04Speaker 04

  You can do whatever you want.

• 1:19:05Dax Shepard?

  I can do whatever I want. Okay, and then I also see some-

• 1:19:07Speaker 04

  I trust people. I love crazy.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  You should be careful, Maria.

• 1:19:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, go get my clippers, Rob. Well, first of all, Maria, I think people will know of you.

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  Potentially. Well, first of all, let's, let's go back in time.

• 1:19:23Dax Shepard?

  Okay, let's go back in time.

• 1:19:24Speaker 01

  If you missed a, there was a fact check some time ago, if you might have missed it.

• 1:19:29Dax Shepard?

  Few weeks ago.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Yes, where Dax cut my hair because I was overgrown.

• 1:19:33Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  And he did a pretty good job.

• 1:19:36Dax Shepard?

  Pretty good.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  And since then, our friend Maria, who is joining us today-

• 1:19:43Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you saw it, obviously.

• 1:19:45Speaker 04

  I saw it, but also-

• 1:19:49Speaker 04

  I have heard of your haircuts.

• 1:19:52Dax Shepard?

  You have?

• 1:19:52Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:19:53Dax Shepard?

  Okay, prior to...

• 1:19:54Speaker 04

  Prior to that.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  You heard of the reputation.

• 1:19:58Speaker 04

  And I have seen your haircuts.

• 1:20:00Dax Shepard?

  That I give myself?

• 1:20:02Speaker 04

  No.

• 1:20:02Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:20:03Speaker 04

  To your daughters.

• 1:20:04Dax Shepard?

  Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure.

• 1:20:06Speaker 04

  During years, like, when, I think it was Delta.

• 1:20:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, she had like a reverse bob.

• 1:20:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, I did like that.

• 1:20:12Dax Shepard?

  That was a fun cut.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  She's had some great cuts.

• 1:20:15Dax Shepard?

  She either goes high in back, long in front, or vice versa.

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:19Dax Shepard?

  Those are her moves.

• 1:20:20Speaker 04

  So I have seen your haircuts. Kristen always told me, he's like, he knows how to cut hair. So I remember.

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:27Speaker 04

  No, and that was in fact, when I saw your daughters, going like, you know, a couple of times, I was like, yeah, he knows how to cut hair.

• 1:20:35Dax Shepard?

  It passed the test. And you're in the business, so people should know, you are officially in the business.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  You are.

• 1:20:41Dax Shepard?

  You are a makeup artist in film and television.

• 1:20:44Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:20:45Dax Shepard?

  For how long?

• 1:20:46Speaker 04

  In Veronica Mars 2003.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  Okay, a long time. Over 20 years ago.

• 1:20:50Dax Shepard?

  22 years.

• 1:20:52Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm, 22 years.

• 1:20:53Dax Shepard?

  And then, you know, we worked together on the spin the wheel.

• 1:20:57Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:20:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  And Maria's done my, my makeup as well.

• 1:21:02Dax Shepard?

  For?

• 1:21:03Speaker 01

  Um, just fun.

• 1:21:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:21:05Dax Shepard?

  Just for fun.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  Just funsies.

• 1:21:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah. She's very, very talented.

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  Very.

• 1:21:09Dax Shepard?

  But, to be honest, there are, there's a lot of talented people here in Los Angeles.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:21:14Dax Shepard?

  You're definitely in the mix because of your personality. You're a great makeup artist, but we wouldn't really even care if you were a good makeup artist because your personality is top-notch. People, I don't know if people understand, the person you are spending the most amount of time with other than, well, more than the other actors on a set, is your hair and makeup.

• 1:21:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:32Dax Shepard?

  And more your makeup. They're not fixing, if you're a dude, they're not fixing your hair nearly as much as they're fixing your makeup.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  And they're in your face.

• 1:21:39Dax Shepard?

  They're in your face.

• 1:21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they have to have a good personality.

• 1:21:43Dax Shepard?

  And your day starts by sitting in their chair very, very early, and you're gonna, you guys are gonna be face to face for the next 40 minutes.

• 1:21:49Speaker 04

  Yes, and I think it's a lot about energy, and it's like, I can read people's energy right away.

• 1:21:56Dax Shepard?

  You know whether they want to chat or nothing.

• 1:21:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, and even, um, when I talk to my husband, because he has completely the opposite side of what I do, like, he goes to hospital, he is very like, you know, in suits and stuff.

• 1:22:10Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:11Speaker 04

  That, for me, is scary. These people have dark secrets.

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  That scary energy. They have diseases. They have AIDS, some of them. If you watch ER, you know that a lot of people.

• 1:22:28Dax Shepard?

  But over the years, yeah, so maybe, I guess 22 years ago, you started working with Kristen.

• 1:22:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, everything for me started with my, my uncle. My uncle was a makeup artist for the TV industry.

• 1:22:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:22:40Speaker 04

  And I was little, I was like, when I see Delta, when I see your daughters on set, it kind of remind myself, like, because I was like, oh, I see all these celebrities. Oh, my God, I want to be, I want to meet them, I want, you know, I want to work with them. So, everything started there, because my uncle had a salon back in Venezuela, where I'm from.

• 1:23:01Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but it's like, we, we are uniquely attracted to Venezuela.

• 1:23:04Speaker 01

  We have a few special Venezuelans in our life. You and Anna.

• 1:23:08Dax Shepard?

  I kind of need to go, because everyone I meet, I'm like, yeah.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  I don't think we can go, and I don't think right now they can come.

• 1:23:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, alright.

• 1:23:16Speaker 01

  Thank you, President.

• 1:23:17Dax Shepard?

  What do you call the President? Because this is one of the things I want to get to. What do you refer to the President as?

• 1:23:23Speaker 01

  Are you even scared to talk about him?

• 1:23:24Speaker 04

  No, I'm not scared. I, yeah, yeah, the orange President.

• 1:23:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how I call him. I love that.

• 1:23:32Speaker 04

  Because, um, it's a story there.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  Is there? It's pretty self-explanatory.

• 1:23:40Speaker 04

  Okay, I, I love Florida.

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Speaker 04

  My family live there. Every time that I go to Florida.

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Speaker 04

  I see all these orange people.

• 1:23:49Speaker 01

  Sure. That's right, yep.

• 1:23:52Speaker 04

  And like, I go, why everybody looks here so orange?

• 1:23:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, what is happening?

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  It's the Florida sun, Florida sun.

• 1:24:00Speaker 04

  It's like, and then when I go there, you know I'm Latin, but they go, oh, you need to go to the beach.

• 1:24:06Dax Shepard?

  They think you're too white.

• 1:24:07Speaker 04

  Yeah, or like, you, you have like, you need color, you need color.

• 1:24:11Dax Shepard?

  You look unhealthy.

• 1:24:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I'm like, no. I am very healthy, like, I look normal, you are the ones that.

• 1:24:18Dax Shepard?

  Are orange. Also, that's where they make a lot of oranges? That's where most of the citrus is coming from, other than California, perhaps?

• 1:24:25Speaker 01

  That's what we do as, as a society. We mimic the fruit that is native to our region.

• 1:24:31Dax Shepard?

  But over the years, you have so many cute Marie-isms. The original one I ever heard, like before I ever met you even, Kristen said, oh my God, my makeup artist is so fucking cute on Verona Kamars. And of course, Kristen can mimic anybody.

• 1:24:44Speaker 04

  Yes, yeah, she does, yes.

• 1:24:46Dax Shepard?

  Because also, when you weren't around, Simone's around and she has a German accent. So Kristen, she can do Simone perfectly, she can do you perfectly. And she said, yeah, she was telling me about the, a sandwich. And she said that it had a rough beef, rough beef.

• 1:25:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I remember that. A lot of people know me because of that story. And another, a couple of other ones too.

• 1:25:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 04

  I try, but like, sometimes my accent, it kind of, it doesn't kind of roll. Yeah.

• 1:25:18Dax Shepard?

  But do we have the same memory that I think on Spin the Wheel? I actually figured out what was going on. I think everyone assumed you were mispronouncing roast. And I'm like, is it that? Or were you actually like, it's rough beef? Were you intending to say rough?

• 1:25:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:25:35Dax Shepard?

  And you felt like, yes, you were.

• 1:25:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and actually, every time that I say that word, I remember that going, like, coming from school, little, and entering my mom's kitchen. And she, I'd be like, no. Oh, you just, you didn't like it. Yeah, and, uh, yeah. And actually, Kristen was the only one who was like, Maria? Okay, it's not roast, it's, it's ro, it's roast.

• 1:26:06Dax Shepard?

  It's roast?

• 1:26:07Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's not rough. And I was like, it's rough beef. It will always be rough beef. Yeah, it's better. I like what you're saying.

• 1:26:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, and then the newest one, and this one made its way to Kimmel, which was you, Kristen came to work, she told you the story, how I had said Lincoln.

• 1:26:24Speaker 04

  Oh my God, yes.

• 1:26:24Dax Shepard?

  Um, she's having a very rough morning. I said, look in the mirror, I'm a bad bitch, and I'm gonna fuck this day up. And you really liked it?

• 1:26:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, that actually stayed with me because, um, you know, being in the business for the TV industry, it's some days, like, they're amazing days, but sometimes even like actors or anything, like,

• 1:26:45Speaker 04

  You want them to kind of like get out of that what happened.

• 1:26:50Dax Shepard?

  The funk.

• 1:26:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, or like give them a signal like you're better. Yeah. Just don't like you don't have to drag that all day. Like that is stay with me.

• 1:27:00Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:27:00Speaker 04

  Like when she told me and I was like, oh.

• 1:27:02Dax Shepard?

  She was having a uniquely terrible day on set.

• 1:27:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:07Dax Shepard?

  And you're like, oh my God, I know what to do.

• 1:27:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:11Dax Shepard?

  And you looked at her and you said what?

• 1:27:13Speaker 04

  I don't remember anymore.

• 1:27:14Dax Shepard?

  Christine? Christine?

• 1:27:16Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:27:16Dax Shepard?

  Remember you're a bitch and you're gonna fuck everything up.

• 1:27:20Speaker 04

  And then, no, and then when I, I was like, and then I was like, oh my God, I say it wrong. But then I look at her and then.

• 1:27:28Dax Shepard?

  That was the magic thing.

• 1:27:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's what she needed to hear. Yeah, and then she look at me and then she started laughing and I'm like, oh my God, I can't believe I just say that. I didn't really, like I was like my brain didn't really in my mouth say something else. So I was like, but I know Kristen, like, you know, I know her for so long. Then I was like, she'll be fine. She'll be fine. She knows what I meant. No, you made her day.

• 1:27:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it was more than fine. It was a blessing that you said you're a bitch and you're gonna fuck everything up.

• 1:27:55Speaker 04

  Yes. And that's why I did the mirror in her makeup bag. Because if something happened, like I would say, like exactly before camera roll. And you see something like a message, like a secret message that it only, you only be able to see it. Nobody else in the room.

• 1:28:15Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:28:16Speaker 04

  You know, it will help you.

• 1:28:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so you can just show her the mirror.

• 1:28:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, someone send you a secret there and you only will know.

• 1:28:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:24Speaker 04

  And it will get you better. That make my day.

• 1:28:26Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, let's get cutting.

• 1:28:30Speaker 04

  Let's get cutting.

• 1:28:31Dax Shepard?

  You're gonna have to lean forward a bit. This will be, which is now gonna be the pattern in this barber shop. I'm never doing what I would normally do, which is stand.

• 1:28:41Speaker 04

  Right, that's right.

• 1:28:42Dax Shepard?

  So we're gonna do the best we can with this and I'm gonna also talk to.

• 1:28:46Speaker 04

  Seated butcher.

• 1:28:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I'm gonna talk to Monica. First, I need to see what's happening here. Okay.

• 1:28:52Speaker 01

  Dax, how nervous are you right now?

• 1:28:54Dax Shepard?

  I'm not too nervous, but I will say that this, what I have to do is, is see the shape that exists already.

• 1:29:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:01Dax Shepard?

  And be very consistent with the shape, which I think I'm gonna be able to do. I'm gonna commit to a certain amount off. And I'm gonna follow the line that exists.

• 1:29:09Speaker 01

  But Maria is so pretty and like you might ruin her whole face.

• 1:29:13Dax Shepard?

  That's the, no, that's the comfort. I call it.

• 1:29:15Speaker 04

  Wait, I have to see this. I have to say this.

• 1:29:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:17Speaker 04

  You know, in Kove, I let my husband cut my hair.

• 1:29:21Dax Shepard?

  In Kove?

• 1:29:22Speaker 04

  It was not straight. I had a bob, kind of, and the bob was like higher and then like it was an angle like this.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:29:29Speaker 04

  And I can, I need to say this. I took a picture of that because I had to take a picture for something for my profile.

• 1:29:36Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:36Speaker 04

  And the bob was like this, right? And I was like, I hate this. And then I saw it. And that's a picture that I use for everything.

• 1:29:44Speaker 01

  You love it!

• 1:29:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, and people tell me.

• 1:29:47Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Where'd you get that haircut?

• 1:29:49Dax Shepard?

  Oh, they love it!

• 1:29:51Speaker 04

  And I was like, okay.

• 1:29:52Speaker 01

  Sometimes life gives you happy accidents.

• 1:29:55Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:29:57Speaker 01

  Okay, first cut is about to happen.

• 1:29:59Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes. We're gonna get this chunk right here and we're gonna get on it. And I'm not gonna cut myself this time. And Monica's gonna tell us a story while this happens.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Oh, I was not prepared for that.

• 1:30:12Speaker 04

  Tell Monica.

• 1:30:14Dax Shepard?

  Monica always has a story.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  I do normally have a story. Let's see, what's been going on with me? Maria, have you watched the show You?

• 1:30:21Dax Shepard?

  Great, this is your favorite question.

• 1:30:22Speaker 04

  I did.

• 1:30:24Speaker 01

  You did?

• 1:30:24Dax Shepard?

  You did.

• 1:30:25Speaker 04

  I think the first season.

• 1:30:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:30:27Speaker 04

  Um, yeah, I like it.

• 1:30:30Dax Shepard?

  Too freaky for you?

• 1:30:31Speaker 04

  It is, it was. It's actually really good.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  Actually, Maria, I'm glad you're here because this.

• 1:30:37Dax Shepard?

  She's the first person who's said that she's seen You, right? You've asked now 20 or 30 people.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  I've asked a lot of people.

• 1:30:44Dax Shepard?

  And I think she, you're the first, Maria.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  And you knew, I didn't even have to clarify a show on Netflix.

• 1:30:49Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  You knew exactly what I was talking about.

• 1:30:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  Um, no, but I'm glad you're here because this is what I've been thinking about for the last 24 hours.

• 1:30:56Speaker 04

  Okay, tell me.

• 1:30:58Speaker 01

  Yesterday, and we're not gonna give anything away, but yesterday we had a crazy day. We had two interviews. And the first was an expert and the second was a celebrity.

• 1:31:10Dax Shepard?

  An actor. A sexy celebrity.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  A sexy celebrity actor that.

• 1:31:13Dax Shepard?

  Very sexy.

• 1:31:14Speaker 01

  Was a. Very big get for us. Both were great.

• 1:31:20Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:31:21Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  The first one is with the expert is fa- so fascinating. Dax and I were really anxious about the celebrity. More so than normal. I don't want to say we get through the first interview. Because we were very engaged and it was super interesting. But I, I'm gonna be honest, I do think we were 10% distracted.

• 1:31:47Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:31:47Dax Shepard?

  Sure.

• 1:31:48Speaker 01

  You know, it's just the truth.

• 1:31:49Dax Shepard?

  It's plain in the background of your mind. You're like, oh, okay, how many hours, yeah.

• 1:31:53Speaker 04

  But do you wanna like, you're not sure if you wanna pick for like the very interesting or a celebrity?

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  So, okay, this is my, who should we be, technically, who should we be more distracted for?

• 1:32:06Dax Shepard?

  Well, and that's a really, there's, there's something funny, yeah, there's something funny about that question. Because i- in reality, the expert required a lot more knowledge on my behalf. I had to like really deep dive into a complex subject. And yet that doesn't, that should be probably more nerve wracking. And of course, it's not.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Well, and then that's my whole, that's what I've thought about after we finished the day yesterday, a lot. Like, I was so, we were so relieved after the day was over. We were happy and, you know, we were talking about it. And then it just sort of, it, I started to feel really sad.

• 1:32:44Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow, explain that, I wanna know about that.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  I started to feel, I just started thinking about our first guest. And I, I, I'm not, we did not treat anyone poorly yesterday. I was just like, man, we should think.

• 1:32:57Dax Shepard?

  You're being a very, like, if you were at a salon and they were treating you this way, you'd be like, hey, can't you do this without combing directly in front of my eyes?

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus Christ.

• 1:33:07Speaker 04

  I will go, I mean, I don't know, I will be more interested in the expert than, I mean.

• 1:33:12Speaker 01

  So, yeah, that's, yeah, so I, I was like, I, it is, there's such an imbalance in this world.

• 1:33:18Dax Shepard?

  Oh, this is nice.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  So, I don't know.

• 1:33:21Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you're saying we're valuing, you felt guilty like we're valuing the wrong things?

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Yes, or, and not, not, I just wish it was equal, and I'm not saying like, I wish like, other people should. I, myself, was doing it. There's something that felt sort of unfair and unjust, and it, it all started to make me sad. And the man we had at first isn't, well, he's Pakistani, but he looked kind of like my father.

• 1:33:48Dax Shepard?

  I think that's a lot of what's going on for you with the way you're having these second thoughts and guilt feelings. I think it's like, you're imagining your dad came in here.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  But that's what we do, that's how we're able to see it, right, in life? Like, you, you get a glimpse into something that you're connected to, and that is how you, you see. And I, I, yeah, I did, I was like, if my dad was somewhere talking to someone about this incredible, like, he, this person's brilliant.

• 1:34:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  And has incredible knowledge, and, you know, there, the people there are kind of half distracted a little bit because they have this, like, beautiful.

• 1:34:27Dax Shepard?

  White gas coming on.

• 1:34:28Speaker 01

  It's not just about, it's not white. I just think we, as a society, we, we definitely treat, we treat people differently, and we think about people differently.

• 1:34:36Dax Shepard?

  Well, we're status animals.

• 1:34:37Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 1:34:38Speaker 01

  But it makes me like, I don't want, and I think it hurts everyone.

• 1:34:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this, this turned out good.

• 1:34:46Speaker 01

  I always feel like this, actually.

• 1:34:47Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah, do that. Do the whole thing you do, and now look at Monica, and she'll either gasp like, oh, you fucked it up.

• 1:34:55Speaker 01

  It looks really nice, great.

• 1:34:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, that's great, okay, we like that. I'm gonna double check I have no straights, because a lot of times, you think you got them all.

• 1:35:11Speaker 04

  I laugh because when people cut hair or people do your makeup and you see their face.

• 1:35:18Dax Shepard?

  Yes, we all have like our concentration phase.

• 1:35:21Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:21Dax Shepard?

  Mine's usually tongue out. Okay, we're sticking with that. That's it. We did it.

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  It's really nice. It looks great.

• 1:35:29Dax Shepard?

  I don't know if you know the rule. I only cut people's hair once. It's this weird thing I have. It's not even weird. We understand it exactly. I want to prove to you I can cut hair, but I don't really want to cut hair a lot.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Well, that's good.

• 1:35:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, so you want her conclusion on?

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Well, you're on a set with with that it's very, there's a big hierarchy on sets. People are overvalued and people are undervalued. And I wonder how you feel about all of that.

• 1:35:58Dax Shepard?

  And maybe I can offer an actual concrete detail because this one I have felt bad about in the past. Yet I'm gonna still do it. I'll bring my kids to work and everyone's like, oh, fun. The kids are here. And I'm like, this is really unfair. The rest of the folks that work here can't bring their kids to work. Like, you're not gonna show up with your kids. Maybe you could, like, one day it would be a thing.

• 1:36:17Speaker 01

  I mean, if it's an emergency.

• 1:36:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:19Speaker 01

  But I know where you mean.

• 1:36:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, like she could bring her kids to work every day.

• 1:36:23Speaker 01

  For fun. You're not like so they can see set.

• 1:36:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 1:36:27Dax Shepard?

  Although you got to go with your uncle, so I guess it does happen.

• 1:36:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:36:31Dax Shepard?

  But that's one where I'll go like, yeah, this is a little bit unethical. Like, I shouldn't really do this because not everyone else can do it. And then I go, and by the way, this is back to parenthood. That's only, and maybe I brought the kids once or twice to bless this mess. But I was also like, yeah, it's not fair. And also, if I can bring my kids to work, I'm going to do that. You know, like what I would want is for anyone to be able to bring their kids to work ultimately.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:57Dax Shepard?

  Unless it was really getting into it.

• 1:36:59Speaker 01

  I mean, it gets in the way, though. Like, let's be honest.

• 1:37:01Dax Shepard?

  Actors bring their dogs and shit.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Really? Really, no one should bring their kids to work on a set. Or dogs. Like, they bark and they make noise and they are a distraction and it is unfair.

• 1:37:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:15Speaker 01

  And some people get a pass and other people don't.

• 1:37:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  And I, I do get kind of wrapped up in the unfairness of it. And it, well, it's more like, I think it hurt, honestly, I think it hurts everyone. We are all people. Yeah.

• 1:37:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  And everyone on a set is a person and should be. There's no better, there really is no better or worse. And, but that's not the way we tend to, as animals, behave.

• 1:37:43Dax Shepard?

  Okay, this is so dangerous, but yes, nobody is better than anyone on a set. No one has more value as a human being.

• 1:37:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:51Dax Shepard?

  But there is also a reality that, where that is not true. So Maria could have a shit day and do kind of okay at her job. And the actor can't. The act, the, the whole reason everyone's there is so that this thing is a product that goes to the television set. And other people can kind of fuck up their job and not get it right. What has to happen is that. And then you go even further, why is that person there? Well, they bet on that person because they've already succeeded on TV a bunch of other times. Now, whether or not your makeup and hair department's great isn't going to predict at all whether people watch the show. That's just a market reality of these different jobs. So they, they intrinsically do have different values for the goal at hand.

• 1:38:35Dax Shepard?

  Not, they don't have different values as humans on planet earth.

• 1:38:38Speaker 01

  That's what I'm talking about. It shouldn't be that you're, you're, you're over the top nice to one person because they're an actor and you're, you could care less how you treat the P A.

• 1:38:52Dax Shepard?

  I agree.

• 1:38:53Speaker 01

  People, everyone should be treated, I understand. Yeah. Even though what you do or how you look or how, whatever like it is. Yeah, even if you're technically replaceable as your job.

• 1:39:05Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and for me, that is a hundred percent true. And when you are at craft service and you're talking with the B camera operator, you should be having an equal to equal conversation because you're both humans.

• 1:39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:17Dax Shepard?

  Now, if we're under the gun and we have to get the shot or it's gonna kick to the next day and it's gonna cost $200,000 and the lead actor is having an issue, that is the most important. Like, it's just.

• 1:39:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is handling the most important problem is different than how you treat people.

• 1:39:37Dax Shepard?

  But also how we might have to tiptoe around the actor who's got the crazy scene where she's just been raped and she's gonna go to the police department and have her seen. She also is entitled to way more delicate kid glove treatment because we recognize what has to happen and we recognize that that's harder than other jobs where you don't have to be in an emotional state to operate the dolly. Like, I do think it ignores a certain reality to just say everyone needs to be treated the same on a set because we're all of the same value. I think it's both things. If someone on the ship has to get sick and we're in the middle of a voyage to another

• 1:40:18Dax Shepard?

  country, in order, we'd have everyone get sick and the captain would be the last person we would have get sick. Because all of our livelihood or all of our life is dependent on that person more than anyone else there. And the livelihood is more dependent on a few people that are there than on others. And so I think it would also be irrational to think there's not gonna be different treatment given those circumstances.

• 1:40:45Speaker 04

  I understand both of the points. Like, I mean, everybody have to be treated equally, but at the same time, I, cause I don't know, like in that TV and film industry, then the reason that we're doing the show is because number one.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:02Speaker 04

  Or number two or three, you know what I mean?

• 1:41:04Dax Shepard?

  On the call sheet, you're saying?

• 1:41:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:41:06Dax Shepard?

  Right, so they order the actors and really their importance to the project.

• 1:41:11Speaker 04

  Yeah, and then that's when you're like, okay, starting from there, like, this is it, you know, number one, number two, and number three. I always feel like, oh my god, like, they're acting but their body is going through that too.

• 1:41:25Speaker 01

  Yes, definitely.

• 1:41:26Speaker 04

  They're not pretending. They're, you think you see it on camera, yes, for you it's pretending, but it's not because their stages or what they're going through and their body is also, that is happening.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:38Speaker 04

  You know, in a way.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm not saying acting isn't hard.

• 1:41:40Dax Shepard?

  We could also take it out of film. Television put it in sports. It's like, let's say there are two team trainers on the Chicago Bulls that can give massages. And unfortunately, it'd be insane to not make sure Michael Jordan has a dedicated one of those people. Now, is it fair that not everyone gets a massage or doesn't have a trainer spending attention on them? Maybe it's not fair, but it would be a really terrible plan to not prioritize Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen for those limited resources. And I think that's a little bit how a film set operates as well. It's like, there aren't infinite resources and infinite breaks and infinite and all this stuff. There is finite of everything. There's a budget. And so you just, you start prioritizing in order of how important they are to the project.

• 1:42:26Dax Shepard?

  And so you can be not more important as a person, but you can definitely be more important to a project.

• 1:42:32Speaker 01

  Exactly, though. So there's no finite amount of kindness towards people.

• 1:42:36Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  It's not like I only have this much, so I guess I gotta give it to the most important person on the project.

• 1:42:41Dax Shepard?

  But we're gonna get parking spots out differently. We're gonna give.

• 1:42:44Speaker 01

  But we're getting kind of far away from what like I was talking about because what happens here is not that.

• 1:42:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, everyone gets the same interview.

• 1:42:53Speaker 01

  Everyone gets an interview for the same amount of time.

• 1:42:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  Both of these people are exceptional.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:00Speaker 01

  There is no getting around that.

• 1:43:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Both are, and yet, there's something that happens in the human body for a certain echelon of celebrity. That just happens. It happens to all of us. I'm not, again, I'm not like pointing fingers. I, I, I am part of this problem. But I was just very aware of it after the fact.

• 1:43:24Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, but you, you tend to be a little harder on yourself than I do. Like when you like something or you, like you feel bad that you value one of those two people more than the other. Like you feel bad about it.

• 1:43:39Speaker 01

  I feel bad that I had the a reaction towards one person that I wouldn't have towards another.

• 1:43:44Dax Shepard?

  But there's a very, very stark reality to the two guests. One has the potential of getting 10 million views and one has the potential of getting a million views.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:43:54Dax Shepard?

  Even if the first guest, if we do it perfectly, it'll get about a million views. Now, the variability in the second guest, if we don't do a good job, it's gonna be okay. If we do a great job, that's kind of a, that's a big game changer. So it does have a different value intrinsically.

• 1:44:10Speaker 01

  It has a different value and I think that's something, that's like an easy thing to tell ourselves. Like it's because the stakes are higher job wise for that. But that's true, that is true. And that's not what is hap, that's not what's happening for me before this person enters. Of course, I do, I am like, oh my God, I really hope this goes well.

• 1:44:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:30Speaker 01

  But there's something visceral that happens when you know that person's gonna walk in the room.

• 1:44:35Dax Shepard?

  Well, there's that.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  That is different than what happens before guest number one walks in the room.

• 1:44:41Speaker 04

  You know, celebrities are persons and for me, celebrities is not celebrities because we all do what we love. So for me, you're a person. So.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. That's sort of my, my point.

• 1:44:51Speaker 04

  You know, and like I, everything for me is like, ooh, I like this person. Like if you guys go for the more interested one, I'll be like, oh yeah. You know what I mean?

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  You will like the first guest.

• 1:45:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:04Speaker 04

  You know what I mean? Like.

• 1:45:05Dax Shepard?

  You would like, you generally like experts more.

• 1:45:08Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:45:08Dax Shepard?

  And we, we, we generally like experts more because all we're, we're gonna hopefully do with a celebrity is learn their life story. Cause we're all very interested in what their life story is. And hopefully we'll hear some things about their life that we haven't heard previously. Cause who wants to hear it all over again?

• 1:45:24Speaker 01

  And some things about the way they think of the world based on their unique experience in this life.

• 1:45:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And then an expert, we're literally gonna learn a new concept. And we might then at a dinner party, talk about this new thing. I mean, we have this, this revenge addiction guy on and I just can't stop thinking about it. Everything I do, everywhere I'm at, I'm talking about, it's like, yeah, this, this guy introduced an entirely new way to think about things for me.

• 1:45:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, the experts have changed my life.

• 1:45:52Dax Shepard?

  Exactly.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  The celebrities are wonderful, but they, they haven't.

• 1:45:56Dax Shepard?

  What is on the table with the celebrity, which I do value almost nearly as much, is we do. On occasion, get an emotional exchange that is so profound and to be doing it with a relative stranger is insanely rewarding. And I will think about that as much as I think about a new concept. So there's like two different offerings on the table. And I hope when we have an expert on that, I can be the layman and convey this as much as I can. And we all walk away with a new concept. And then when it's a celebrity, I hope we have an emotional exchange that is like very genuine and memorable and you can feel.

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I just think it's my, I think it's my journey in this life to really, because I started out feeling so inferior.

• 1:46:44Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:46:45Speaker 01

  That it is really my journey to understand that everyone really is equal. And I think I'm like there, so I might die soon. They might unfollow me because I think I'm getting really close.

• 1:46:59Dax Shepard?

  But Monty, don't you think?

• 1:47:01Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:47:04Dax Shepard?

  Don't you think a bit, though, that you felt underappreciated and low status? And so you, as we all project our own baggage, you're very fearful that someone else is feeling that way.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Well, I see it all the time.

• 1:47:25Dax Shepard?

  You're kind of on high alert.

• 1:47:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I see it, though. It's not, we can't act like people don't revere.

• 1:47:30Dax Shepard?

  Have different status.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, and revere celebrity over scientist.

• 1:47:33Dax Shepard?

  I don't, that's not my pushback at all. It's whether or not they feel bad.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Oh, the person.

• 1:47:39Dax Shepard?

  The person. Because, yes, status is a real thing. It's almost measurable. We have lots of markers for status.

• 1:47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:46Dax Shepard?

  That's real. But whether or not the person's feeling like you're treating them low status, that's completely up to each person.

• 1:47:54Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:47:55Speaker 04

  Wait, I have a question for you guys. Because that's like, everybody in this universe have status.

• 1:48:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:01Speaker 04

  Finance status?

• 1:48:04Dax Shepard?

  Financial, intelligence.

• 1:48:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:07Dax Shepard?

  Academic achievement.

• 1:48:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:48:09Dax Shepard?

  Um, your social network, are you associated with lots of high status people who are financially and economically and all these things? There's, um, there's physical status, you can be very attractive. There's strength status. There's like any number of ways we could measure two people. We can measure their income, well, which one's higher? We could measure their strength, which one's higher?

• 1:48:30Speaker 04

  So, but which one you will you erase from your world?

• 1:48:33Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'll tell you the one that I'm not impressed by. I'm not, I don't care if someone's rich.

• 1:48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, me either.

• 1:48:40Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, but I see it a lot. You're around people and just they're the richest in their group and they have all this sway and people are kind of enamored by them, want to be close to them. And I'm just like, yeah, there's gotta be some way more going on than that. Maybe the way they got rich would be interesting and I would, I would, you know, be enamored by them, but, but yeah, if you're just rich, who gives a fuck? Cause you could just be a trust fund kid. Like what is impressive about that? But with the richness comes the cool car and the cool house and the cool vacations.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  Vacations, yeah. Yeah. I think financial status is.

• 1:49:12Dax Shepard?

  But I'm impressed by all the other stuff. Like if you're crazy talented, I am, if you're very attractive, I like that. If you're, if you're super smart, I love that. Like I, I'm, I do covet a lot of these status markers or I'm affected by a lot of these status markers. I gotta say this, when we're with Bill Gates, he's arguably, you know, in the top 10 in the world of status and him being rich is like the least interesting part. And it's the one we think about the least. I mean, I think about it the least when I'm with him. I'm just constantly.

• 1:49:43Speaker 01

  But when we were first talking to him, we thought about it.

• 1:49:46Dax Shepard?

  We did, you're right.

• 1:49:47Speaker 01

  And then now obviously we don't, but like, remember we were like.

• 1:49:50Dax Shepard?

  Cause he says a hundred and thirty billion dollars.

• 1:49:52Speaker 01

  Like how does that, how does a person have that? You know, you can't help it. These are, these are few ways of being, this is how, these are how humans are, but I am try, I, I think it's good for me anyway. I don't, it's not a, I'm not telling other people what to do. I want to move away from it, not toward it.

• 1:50:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think that's the fundamental way you and I differ.

• 1:50:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:13Dax Shepard?

  You think we should and can transcend status as a species. And I don't think social animals can ever transcend status. I think you have to. I think you have to accept it. You have to learn how it's affecting you. You have to learn how to deal with it the way we have to learn how to deal with many of the vestigial things we're stuck with. We want to eat more food than we need. It's never gonna change. That's how humans are. So we gotta figure out a game plan around that. But I, I don't think you will ever live in a world with social animals where there's not status. I don't think that's a goal we could, we even achieve, or should even waste time aiming

• 1:50:55Dax Shepard?

  at. It's more like, how's this thing we're stuck with affecting your emotional state? And how can you help limit the amount of fallout from that?

• 1:51:04Speaker 01

  I've changed a lot in the way I view status.

• 1:51:08Dax Shepard?

  How you evaluate?

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  How I evaluate. Yeah, like when I first moved here, I was definite, and definitely before I moved here, like, you know, people who were famous and celebrities, that was so, they were so cool. And I was definitely overly impressed.

• 1:51:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:26Speaker 01

  And I really, again, maybe that's why also this is coming up, because I haven't felt

• 1:51:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh, right.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  this feeling in a long time. I haven't felt this feeling that we had yesterday, where I was like nervous. Because I, I don't care anymore. We have all these famous people on, and I don't think, oh, they're famous, or, oh, they're cooler than me, or, oh, they're better than me at all. So, that's a huge shift.

• 1:51:54Dax Shepard?

  You know what's great, though? Can I just tell you something nice? You were so fucking confident yesterday, that you didn't let that get the best of you in any way. You were almost cocky in the way that I love when you're cocky.

• 1:52:07Speaker 04

  You always translate very well, Monica.

• 1:52:09Speaker 01

  Thank you. It did fall away quickly.

• 1:52:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. But you were yourself. You were like, when I say to you, like, you've said different people you dated, you started to evaluate more like, who am I when I'm with them?

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:52:23Dax Shepard?

  And, yeah, you

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, not who are they, who am I?

• 1:52:27Dax Shepard?

  Who are you? And then certain people brought out certain sides of you. And I, I just left yesterday thinking like, oh, yeah, that's the best, most confident side of Monica.

• 1:52:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, I, I think part of it's

• 1:52:42Dax Shepard?

  I was enormously proud of you even though.

• 1:52:44Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:52:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, well, I called you and told you how much I appreciated.

• 1:52:47Speaker 01

  That's really nice.

• 1:52:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:49Speaker 01

  I mean, I do think part of it's based off that stubbornness. Like, I'm not gonna let this person with all this status that everyone's like, you know, everyone's texting after, how was this interview? How was this interview? I'm, I'm, nope, you're not gonna let me feel that way.

• 1:53:06Speaker 04

  When I started and I was, you know, on the show and TV series and stuff, they used to tell me, this person's gonna, you know, you're gonna do their makeup. This person's gonna, but, you know, I'm from South America, Venezuela, so for me, I don't know these people.

• 1:53:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:53:23Dax Shepard?

  The superpower.

• 1:53:24Speaker 04

  Yeah, and I remember one time I started like going, oh, I'm gonna do it. And then I started going, read about them, show them, and that I couldn't handle.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Yes, too intimidating.

• 1:53:36Speaker 04

  It was too much for me. I learned through the years, being in the industry, that I don't Google anyone.

• 1:53:43Dax Shepard?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:53:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's smart.

• 1:53:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's a good policy.

• 1:53:46Speaker 04

  I remember this story and this actress, I don't know, I had never seen her after that. She, she was like, her look was very serious, but she was the sweetest thing. But nobody really

• 1:54:00Speaker 01

  They were afraid to talk to her.

• 1:54:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 04

  And she's like, Maria, how like, you are so friendly with her. Nobody really talked to her.

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  Right, it's like just

• 1:54:09Dax Shepard?

  They were intimidated.

• 1:54:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, like even like the crew and I'm like, well, I have to do her makeup, I love her.

• 1:54:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:54:14Speaker 04

  And we click and, you know what I mean? But that's the thing, it's like, sometimes you're outside, it doesn't really match what is inside.

• 1:54:22Dax Shepard?

  Maria, this was so fun having you a part of the banter.

• 1:54:25Speaker 01

  Yes, thank you for joining us and getting your hair, cause it looks beautiful.

• 1:54:28Speaker 04

  Thank you, thank you, Dax, thank you, Monica.

• 1:54:30Dax Shepard?

  I stand by that.

• 1:54:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, you were the inspiration. I, that day, I was like, when I saw Kristen, I said, I'm like, you need to tell Dax that he needs to trim my bangs. Cause I need, and she was like, okay.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  Well, you did a great job.

• 1:54:46Dax Shepard?

  Well, thank you, guys, I appreciate it.

• 1:54:48Speaker 04

  I know it's only gonna be once, it's okay.

• 1:54:50Dax Shepard?

  I might do you a second time, cause I like you so much.

• 1:54:53Speaker 01

  Wow, lucky.

• 1:54:54Dax Shepard?

  Any actors out there who have a choice, if they get to pick who their makeup artist is, I could not recommend Maria Moore. I had so much fun. You, Amy, and I had so much fun on that insane

• 1:55:05Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 1:55:06Dax Shepard?

  game show with a five-story wheel.

• 1:55:08Speaker 04

  By the way, I have to say this, you, like, you in that suit look very sexy.

• 1:55:16Dax Shepard?

  Oh!

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  There you go.

• 1:55:17Dax Shepard?

  Thank you.

• 1:55:18Speaker 04

  And I actually sent that to KB because she didn't have the picture. And I remember I was like, you need to see your husband in this picture.

• 1:55:28Speaker 04

  She was like, okay. And I'm like, send it to you. Because I remember it was like a suit and like, I don't know, like so much money in the bag.

• 1:55:36Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure, sure. That helps.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  And I remember. So she has it. And you know, things like that, you need to say.

• 1:55:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:55:43Dax Shepard?

  I appreciate it. I love you.

• 1:55:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I love you.

• 1:55:46Dax Shepard?

  Thanks for coming.

• 1:55:47Speaker 04

  Thank you, Monika.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  So good to have you.

• 1:55:50Speaker 05

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:56:03Speaker 01

  Shan.

• 1:56:03Dax Shepard?

  Shan.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  So there aren't very many facts for Shan.

• 1:56:07Dax Shepard?

  Shan brought the facts.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  She really did. She brought the facts. Weirdly, Sam Rockwell comes up, which is wild because he was our guest earlier this week.

• 1:56:16Dax Shepard?

  What was said about Sam Rockwell?

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  The...

• 1:56:20Dax Shepard?

  Oh, the speech in White Lotus.

• 1:56:22Speaker 01

  The speech in White Lotus, yes, came up. And if you missed that episode, it was earlier this week. And we do talk about that speech a fair amount. Um, where are the pleasure centers in the brain? Okay. The nucleus accubens is often referred to as the pleasure center of the brain. It's a subcortical brain structure involved in positive effect and feelings of reward. When we engage in pleasurable activities, the nucleus accubens becomes activated, leading to the release of dopamine, which reinforces the behavior.

• 1:56:55Speaker 01

  It's located in the ventral stratum, a part of the basal ganglia.

• 1:56:59Dax Shepard?

  Basal ganglia.

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Also, the orbitofrontal cortex, particularly in a mid anterior subregion.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  According to some neuroimaging studies.

• 1:57:10Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 1:57:10Speaker 01

  There's also a site for pleasure.

• 1:57:12Dax Shepard?

  I wish you would've got into a little bit how men are more visual by nature than women. That's curious to me.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  You wish she had?

• 1:57:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Yeah. Make some kind of explanation for that.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Uh, did Stifler get a prostate orgasm in American Pie? No, Road Trip.

• 1:57:29Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Road Trip.

• 1:57:31Speaker 01

  There is, I guess, a scene where he's milking the prostate.

• 1:57:34Dax Shepard?

  I remember it well. A nurse is in his ass and, yeah.

• 1:57:38Speaker 01

  Good for him.

• 1:57:39Dax Shepard?

  Sounds great.

• 1:57:40Speaker 01

  And that's it.

• 1:57:42Dax Shepard?

  That was it.

• 1:57:43Speaker 01

  She brought a lot.

• 1:57:44Dax Shepard?

  Stifler was in Road Trip when he got milked.

• 1:57:47Speaker 01

  I mean, some of the facts I didn't feel comfortable checking.

• 1:57:50Dax Shepard?

  Oh.

• 1:57:51Speaker 01

  Just kidding. But, you know, some of those Googles, I don't need to do.

• 1:57:56Dax Shepard?

  You were afraid some images would come up?

• 1:57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  But I trust her anyway. She's a master class.

• 1:58:01Dax Shepard?

  I mean, you gotta trust the master class.

• 1:58:03Speaker 01

  Got to.

• 1:58:04Dax Shepard?

  All right.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:58:05Dax Shepard?

  Love you.

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Love you.