When sex is "optimized"

Today we’re talking about Aella the e-girl and “rationalist," who is probably also pretty smelly — at least if her birthday gangbang breakdown is to be believed. She's known for issuing controversial polls about sex and relationships, and then scrapping with people online about the results. June Sternbach & Josh Boerman from the Ill Conceived podcast join us to trace Aella's history and her impact on the broader culture, for better or for worse. Our guests June Sternbach & Josh Boerman host the podcast Ill Conceived. You can follow it here or anywhere you listen to podcasts. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 0:29Ryan Broderick?

  Um, quick question for the two of you. How often do you two shower? Like, do you shower normally? Do you shower?

• 0:36Speaker 02

  I forgot to shower this morning. That's why my hair looks like this, which is very embarrassing.

• 0:43Ryan Broderick?

  Did you shower last night?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  I did, yeah.

• 0:45Ryan Broderick?

  Okay, that's fine.

• 0:46Speaker 03

  I'm a night showerer. I know that's controversial. People are like, you can't do that. You're gonna be in your filth. I can't help it, I'm sorry. But I also didn't shower last night because I was busy seeing an Elvis impersonator and I gotta say, I get why Gen X is like that. I understand.

• 1:03Ryan Broderick?

  Elvis is cool.

• 1:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, Elvis is kinda dope and I understand why they're all fascists now.

• 1:10Ryan Broderick?

  Well, there's a lot there. We can get into that in a second.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  There's a whole pipeline, yeah.

• 1:30Ryan Broderick?

  While we're still talking about showering, I do want to say for our video viewers, uh, my hair is a little curly today because I have run out of conditioner and I want to say that I discovered, I came across a video of this like very cool like lesbian chef on YouTube who was talking about her hair routine because I guess she got a lot of comments about it. And she was like, oh, I shampoo and condition my hair every day. And I was like, her hair looks really good. And I started doing it, but then I ran out of conditioner and then my hair went back to its normal size. And so now I'm actually kinda liking it more now.

• 2:04Speaker 03

  I think I, I think I like it more.

• 2:05Speaker 02

  I gotta say, I like the floof.

• 2:06Ryan Broderick?

  Thank you. I was using conditioner and it was sort of like, I mean, I was looking like this really cool lesbian chef that I found on YouTube, but I think I feel more like myself with my hair now, so.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Audience, let us know, which I only want the comments to be about Ryan's hair.

• 2:22Speaker 02

  How much volume should Ryan's hair?

• 2:27Ryan Broderick?

  Right.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  I think personally, you should be a lesbian. I think, I think you need to go with the lesbian. I always encourage men to look like-

• 2:35Ryan Broderick?

  I should look like a lesbian. I see. Yeah, I see what you're saying.

• 2:37Speaker 03

  Killian Murphy, everyone loves Killian Murphy. Like, let's be honest here.

• 2:41Ryan Broderick?

  I think that's the-

• 2:42Speaker 03

  People love when men look like lesbians.

• 2:44Ryan Broderick?

  That's the kind of lesbian that I would like to look like. I don't want to look like a fuckboy lesbian, like a Justin Bieber lesbian. I want to look like an old Irish grandmother.

• 2:53Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:54Ryan Broderick?

  Like Killian Murphy.

• 2:55Speaker 03

  I do.

• 2:56Ryan Broderick?

  But enough about lesbian grandmothers. Today, we are here, Panic World, a show about how the internet warps our mind, our culture, and eventually, reality. My name is Ryan Broderick. With me as always is Grant Irving. Joining us today from the Ill Conceived Podcast is June and Josh. Hello. Thank you guys for being here. Thank you so much. We are here to talk about something that like I have not wanted to talk about at all. I have fought tooth and nail to not talk about it. We are talking about Ayla, the e-girl, and the rationalists from Silicon Valley. These people warp the internet, the world as we know it, and are increasingly crashing out and fighting to stay relevant.

• 3:41Ryan Broderick?

  And Ayla is probably the smelliest one. So, we picked her to talk about all of this. But we're gonna get all into that in a bit. Let's first talk about kind of the basic facts of this. So, do either of you have like a good working definition for like what rationalists are?

• 4:01Speaker 02

  I would say that, generally speaking, they are people who believe that the world is understandable based on sort of observable principles, in that by interrogating the various principles of the world through constant rigorous analysis, you can come to truths about the world. And for what that looks like, for Ayla specifically, is that she is constantly running polls on her Twitter account about like, if you had to rape a child to save the world, would you do it?

• 4:36Ryan Broderick?

  They love stuff like that, that's true.

• 4:38Speaker 03

  Most of these people, that's most of these people, because Josh, you gave a very academic, a very smart answer about what these people claim to be, or what they think they are. But what they actually are, is like, they just post like, "Could trees emit hydrogen?" Like, and then the people are like, "Uh, no, that's fucked, that could never happen. This is not something that anyone has ever thought about, this is not something anyone like, needs." And they're like, "Um, the fact that you're getting mad at me sort of proves why I needed to ask that question."

• 5:06Ryan Broderick?

  This sounds dumb because it is, but it's the ideology that's spreading across Silicon Valley right now, so let's dig into their culture, shall we?

• 5:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:16Ryan Broderick?

  Basically, the rationalists, the effective altruists, the effective accelerationists, all these people believe that AI is inevitable, and they're trying to come up with like philosophical frameworks for dealing with this inevitable god-level superintelligence that we would create. So, the effective altruists believe that you can like, kind of, fix all of society's ills by like, over-adapting to the free market, like even more so, sort of like, that like, human misery is a math problem that can be solved by money. Effective accelerationists believe that like, AI will destroy the world, and they want it to, so they can build a new one.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  Those freaks, those people are freaks. I do not understand, so, yeah, I cannot understand how we have not like, put them in like, the fucking, like, swamp yet. Like, I don't understand, it's such an anti-human perspective to take. And they're human, obviously.

• 6:05Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, the phrase that I use for a lot of these people is that we gotta just gotta dig a big hole and put them in it. Like, like, they just don't really belong in society. And like, most of the people we'll be talking about today do not belong in society, which is why they're so interested in building a new, worse one. Which brings us to Ayla, which will show us what happens to a brain when it's exposed to rationalism. So I did not know this. When did, when do you guys think Ayla appeared on the internet? Like, what do you, where do you think she comes from? Cause this surprised me.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  So, to me, she has just, I can't imagine a world without her in it. Uh, you know, that's, that's the thing for me. She's like an eternal presence.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  I feel like she's like old internet. I feel like she was like, I, I don't know where specifically, but I feel like if you go to like all of her social medias, she had like registered her accounts and like whatever forums.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, she didn't, she didn't come from like something awful, did she?

• 7:01Ryan Broderick?

  Well, so I, I thought she sort of clipped through like the wall between her dimension and ours around 2020. Like, you know, the, the dime square vibe shift seems to have spawned her into life. But no, yeah, June is right. Um, I did not know this. She started as a cam girl on 4chan.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Oh my, on 4chan of all places.

• 7:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So according to the Daily Dot, they got her, they, they, uh, she, she gave this quote. "I actually just got really drunk one night, looked over and saw a tube of white face paint from Halloween and figured I should put it on my face. And then next thing you know, I'm trapped in invisible boxes and humping chairs." So she was doing like erotic mind play on 4chan.

• 7:40Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 7:40Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. Um, it should be surprised to nobody here that she was, uh, homeschooled and raised extremely religious.

• 7:46Speaker 02

  There you go. There you go. Yeah.

• 7:48Ryan Broderick?

  Really, just like, I don't really have, you know, I'm, I'm all about personal freedoms these days. If you want to homeschool your kids, that's fine. But you just have to find a new country for them to live in that like, I don't have to deal with.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm with you 100%. We have talked about homeschooling on our show a few times. And one of the things that we regularly get in terms of just listener feedback is, "I was homeschooled and I regret it."

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, and of course, they don't have a choice, which is the problem. It is like, it's forcing a pretty rigid worldview at the end of the day. Like, it's education second. It's about like shielding from ideology, from the queers. And it like can really fuck people up. It's not, I personally, my hot take is I think homeschool, more or less, except for some situations where it's like, somebody can only be homeschooled. I think it should be like child abuse. Like, it's not good for a kid. It's not good. I think it's bad. I should, I think it should be banned.

• 8:43Ryan Broderick?

  I, you know, that's pretty, it's pretty hot take. I'm not gonna touch, I'm not gonna touch that one with a 10 foot pole. But what I will say is that having to deal with adults who were homeschooled is a form of abuse that I am, I am experiencing.

• 8:56Speaker 04

  They should all be C-studying.

• 8:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:58Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, they, exactly. Honestly, that, you know, if Peter Thiel wants to take all the homeschool adults and just put them on a fucking oil rig, then they can do whatever they want.

• 9:07Speaker 03

  They can share memes there.

• 9:08Ryan Broderick?

  They would love, they would love to share memes with each other. So, Ayla branches out to Reddit like everybody else around 2013, 2014. She shares a photo album of her, I mean, it's basically like a photo album of images of her being like sexually assaulted by garden gnomes that she photographed.

• 9:35Speaker 03

  That's pretty funny.

• 9:35Ryan Broderick?

  That becomes the Gone Wild subreddit's highest rated post of all time.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  Wait, so, I see.

• 9:44Ryan Broderick?

  I'm also just realizing I have seen this post.

• 9:47Speaker 03

  This, by the way, just to say.

• 9:48Ryan Broderick?

  I have no way you hadn't seen this.

• 9:50Speaker 02

  To describe this for people not watching on the video feed, right? It's very goofy, it's very millennial coded. She is.

• 9:59Ryan Broderick?

  It's very, it's a very quirk-chungus porn album.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  She's quirk-chungus as hell. She's got her hands out, like, kinda like toward the camera, being like, oh no! And by these little like garden gnomes. And she's got wonderful feet up in the, in the air behind her, but the camera angle is like pointed toward her face. And then, yeah, moving sort of toward the back wall of the room.

• 10:25Ryan Broderick?

  Can I say something?

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:27Ryan Broderick?

  She has Comic Con face.

• 10:31Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. There's like a-

• 10:34Speaker 03

  This is new. Tell me, what is Comic Con? I've not heard of that.

• 10:37Ryan Broderick?

  There is like a specific kind of white woman that exists at comic conventions in the early 2010s. There's a look and typically a voice associated with it as well. A voice that would sort of, you could imagine them talking to you at great length about sort of like BBC Sherlock.

• 10:58Speaker 02

  This is a close relative of DreamWorks' face. It's a little different though.

• 11:04Ryan Broderick?

  I would almost say that they have a speech impediment. It's almost that. It's like, there's an accent. There's like a Comic Con accent and a Comic Con face. And Ayla has one and I sort of hadn't connected it, that like a lot of the accelerationists and sort of Silicon Valley people have like-

• 11:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been watching BBC Sherlock for a while and, you know, I-

• 11:26Ryan Broderick?

  Um, I'm pretty sure that Rick and Buck Falls will make John Locke canon.

• 11:31Speaker 03

  So I think you're touching on something sort of interesting that I've noticed recently. I've seen people, because you were sort of saying that this is sort of an old aesthetic of like convention going, right? Like, it's not necessarily how it is today, is what you were saying. There was an interesting thing. I don't really have a name for it. I don't remember the little web series I saw it from off the top of my head. But the proliferation of social media has sort of changed that because like that's quirk chungus. These days, quirk chungus doesn't really hit it off on social media the same way. Everything is like pristine. Everything is like shiny, like perfect, beautiful on social media, especially in like time goings scenarios. Like back in the day, you'd see people wearing like a shitty robe, like in a shitty orange robe and like Naruto running around.

• 12:12Speaker 03

  And now it's like everyone has like the craziest getups and it's like film crew level type, like filmography and like camera work. And it's like, that is sort of-

• 12:20Ryan Broderick?

  Very professional.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  Very professional as like back in the day was very earnest. It was very quirk chungus. The quirk chungus has no longer invoke-

• 12:28Speaker 02

  Now, we've de-chungus as a culture, I would say.

• 12:31Ryan Broderick?

  We have de-chungus. And just a sort of final glimpse of what this culture was like. One of the top comments on this photo album was- I laughed, I fapped. What else can you ask for?

• 12:43Speaker 02

  Fuck yes. Fapped. Now, that, that comment date, I need to know what, when that was.

• 12:49Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I got it right here. I got it right here. So it's, uh, September 5th, 2013.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  That sounds about right. Sounds about right.

• 12:57Ryan Broderick?

  Ew. Oh, God. These are awful. These are awful comments.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  Are you, are you looking at more of them? Cause I, I specifically chose the least offensive.

• 13:05Ryan Broderick?

  One of them says, "I honestly expected to see a picture of a gnome deep in your vagina."

• 13:11Speaker 03

  Oh, God.

• 13:12Ryan Broderick?

  Anyways.

• 13:13Speaker 03

  So she was always sort of like how she still is. She's very, pushes the boundaries.

• 13:18Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. She's always been good at the internet. Like, is very fluent in sort of like the way that like, men on the internet want to be spoken to by a woman, which I think is very important for her rise later. Um, here's a quote from her, from Know Your Meme. She like posts these pictures and she goes for a walk and she doesn't think about them going viral. And she says, "I ate a sandwich and then I kept walking and as I kept walking, the post was exploding in the ranks. My phone started going off. But also I have IBS, so my stomach was feeling pretty bad and I needed to diarrhea immediately. So I started looking for a place to diarrhea, but the places I was walking through were full of really upper end suburban homes. I was like, this is not good.

• 13:59Ryan Broderick?

  I had to jump into a bush right on the side of the road and pulled off my pants. But while this was happening..."

• 14:05Speaker 02

  This is just fetish content.

• 14:08Ryan Broderick?

  But while this is happening, I am becoming famous. Commenters are like, "Oh my God, you're so sexy and funny." And then I walked to a gas station and threw my underwear in the trash. It was my first taste at having a lot of attention and I really like, oh, God.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  I have to go diarrhea.

• 14:24Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, so.

• 14:26Speaker 03

  And with how she locked in the, the even freakier crowd in her audience.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 14:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So, you know, uh, she gets her first run in with internet fame. She, uh, has diarrhea in a bush, throws her underwear in the trash and the rest is history. You know, this is, this is the internet we all miss. So how does Ayla change into someone trying to spearhead a crypto dating app? And start talking about eugenics? We're gonna talk about that and after a word from our sponsors, Emodium.

• 14:59Ryan Broderick?

  I Googled diarrhea medicine.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  That was pretty good. I got it. I got it. No, it's good.

• 15:03Speaker 03

  Oh, I thought that was an actual. I was like, okay, we're gonna wait a second. We're gonna reset.

• 15:06Ryan Broderick?

  No, no. Pepto Bismol.

• 15:11Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Indeed. You're ready to level up your business, but the pressure to find the right person to make that happen is intense. Indeed sponsored jobs can help carry the load. It boosts your job post to help it reach quality talent fast. Cut through the chaos with Indeed sponsored jobs. Get a $75 sponsored job credit at indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring now? Then this is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs.

• 15:42Ryan Broderick?

  Um, 2014, sort of a big inflection point for the internet. You know, it starts to sort of get a lot less innocent, maybe naive than it used to be. But Ayla is still sort of a massive presence now on both Tumblr and Twitter and Reddit, where she's doing a lot of novelty porn. This is also probably like peak burlesque era. I remember like going to like an X-Men themed burlesque show in the Lower East Side in 2014.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Was that at the Slipper Room? Please tell me that was at the Slipper Room.

• 16:14Ryan Broderick?

  Almost certainly, probably. But it was pretty good. I mean, I like, I remember being pretty impressed with their Professor X. They had like a sexy wheelchair for him and stuff.

• 16:23Speaker 03

  They do Linkin Park themed burlesque now. If, I know that's off your interest, Ryan.

• 16:27Ryan Broderick?

  I mean, I do love Linkin Park. I think they're their Nirvana of the 21st century.

• 16:31Speaker 03

  You're kind of real.

• 16:34Ryan Broderick?

  Also, like, all music kind of sounds like Linkin Park.

• 16:36Speaker 03

  And like you tell, like you talk to any, some like person from Gen X and it's like, Nirvana, that was the shit. And like anyone that's like sort of in their late twenties or early thirties that you hear a numb and everyone goes, oh, oh, it's like, yeah, same reaction.

• 16:51Ryan Broderick?

  Hyperpop couldn't exist without Linkin Park.

• 16:53Speaker 03

  I don't know about that. Uh, sure. I was just.

• 16:56Ryan Broderick?

  Charli XCX couldn't exist without Linkin Park. Uh, Meteora.

• 16:59Speaker 03

  Listening to a numb encore again the other day.

• 17:04Ryan Broderick?

  Unbelievable.

• 17:05Speaker 03

  So good.

• 17:05Ryan Broderick?

  Unbelievable song. So 2014, Ayla was having fun. We're all having fun with her. And then like everything else online.

• 17:15Ryan Broderick?

  It takes a bad turn. So she gets another bit of attention in 2016 on Reddit. She says that she took acid once for a week for 10 months. And that gets her to the top of our drugs.

• 17:29Speaker 03

  Hell yeah. She really, she's a savant. She's been a social media savant for a long time. Oh my god.

• 17:35Ryan Broderick?

  Mm-hmm. I assume that she's lying about almost everything she says, but like it is, she, she knows exactly like the right kind of like ways to do this. Um, she wrote, "In 2014, I did on average 250 micrograms of acid once a week for 10 months from January to October are approximately 40 times. The, there were times of deliberately induced and absolutely excruciating emotional pain to which nothing in my regular life has ever come close. I did it on purpose. I needed to know." Okay, uh, she stops camgirling, she stops eating, she goes into like a deep depression. Um, debt collectors are calling her, um, her mom gets sick, like she's just in a really dark place.

• 18:16Ryan Broderick?

  And then she kind of like comes out of this period with like a very different personality, I would say, online. And this is 2016. When she starts polling her Twitter followers and cataloging the results and publishing them as scientific data. So like, I know people who, who went through this exact trajectory, actually. Like, they were like, kind of quirk chunkacy, like burlesque adjacent people, took too many drugs, then became like hardcore, like data freaks. Like, this is a thing that happened.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  And I, I think the presenting it as scientific statistically valid data is a really important point, actually. Because, to be clear, this is not reliable statistical data at all. This is the result of an online poll from some absolute fucking weirdos. But because of the whole like rationalist thing, she loves to present this stuff as if it has scientific value of any sort.

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we sort of see that go to the top of like this sphere too. I mean, how many times have we had to see Elon Musk's site? Like a Twitter poll he made as like, nope, this is the ultimate truth. And it's like, no, that's just like a bunch of bots and freaks. Like that's, there's no actual truth here.

• 19:29Ryan Broderick?

  We have a copy of all the Twitter polls here. Um.

• 19:32Speaker 03

  There's some gems here, I bet.

• 19:34Ryan Broderick?

  Here's some from 2016, which gives us a good understanding of the baseline before things get really out of control. Okay, so here's a few. Would you rather bone your GF in your mom's body, or your mom in your GF's body? If you're a lady, it's BF and Dad.

• 19:48Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 19:49Ryan Broderick?

  Okay. Should public masturbation be considered a crime? If the mafia kidnapped you and forced you to drink one cup of the following, which would you prefer, blood or semen? At the time, I remember seeing some of these and just thinking like, these are growth hacks. Like, she's doing a growth hack. I didn't really sort of see the larger, the larger project, I guess.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Some of these are designed to get outrage, obviously. Like, yeah, like, some of the more extreme ones, especially where she's sort of like talking about CSAM, and like, you know, as Josh mentioned in the intro, like, stuff around pretty extreme sexual acts.

• 20:26Ryan Broderick?

  Yes.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  And abuse of children.

• 20:28Speaker 03

  And abuse, yeah, yeah.

• 20:29Speaker 02

  She, she really, a lot of these hypotheticals, I think it's one of those things where like, you kind of have to keep cranking up the outrage meter in order to keep getting those results. And I remember the sort of questions she was asking growing stranger and stranger.

• 20:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I think she made that calculation that a lot of people in this sphere have, where it's like, they, they know, and, and they're right for this, that it's impossible to be liked or loved by everyone. So they're sort of tailoring their own audience to the type of person that, like, is okay with the sort of stuff. Sort of like a right-wing, chud-coded sphere. Like, just like, oh, it's like free speech, bro. Like, that kind of person.

• 21:10Ryan Broderick?

  I, I find it almost more insidious, though, than the right, I think, in a lot of ways, because they refuse to say what they mean and what they're doing to such a degree. So when she starts doing the polling, according to her own account, is, she has now started reading rationalist blogs. So she's reading these sort of AI-adjacent blogs, which 10 years ago, were like, playing in a lot of hypotheticals, and I think we're giving... Okay, here's my hot take. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. As the Reddit atheism movement, the new atheism movement, sort of like quirk chunguses and collapses in the early 2010s.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Fedora's were horrible for the movement at the

• 21:49Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, horrible. I think the rationalist movement sort of took its place as like an area online where like a lot of sort of smug people could like LARP as Hitler.

• 21:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:00Ryan Broderick?

  Basically.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  There was like that. It sounds like you were there at the ground level of like the the new atheist movement and and I was how I was too. And it's like the divergent point was specifically from what I remember it was sort of like at the crossroads, like the God question, obviously, you can only sort of in atheist spheres yell at Christians and and like different religious figures so much until it gets a little stale. So then it sort of got into the realm of like talking about Islam. And then from there it was like, oh, should we be able to critique it this way? And then it was like sort of the Sam Harris's of it all. We're like, no, this is like uniquely bad. Like they do this, this, that, sort of echoing like a George Bushian viewpoint on like Islam specifically.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Very sort of like post nine 11 views of Islam. And it was like, for me, I was like, okay, I think this is where I'm going to take my exit. And then you saw after that, a lot of these people are now the same people that are like, actually, I think trans people should be cataloged. I think we should make lists of trans people. I think homophobia is probably good sometimes. I, to be clear, I don't think Ayla is specifically one of these people. I think she's fine with trans people. I think she's fine with gay people. I think I'm fairly certain of that. But this whole sphere that she has cultivated, the other people she associates with tend to be these kinds of people. And it's sort of like the outgrowth of, I agree, the like old new atheist movement back in the 2010s.

• 23:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I think there's something very darkly funny and ironic about like a bunch of like burned out atheists inventing like a pseudo religion around an inevitable AI apocalypse that now they just like talk about all the time.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:34Ryan Broderick?

  But to your larger point, let me read you some of the titles from this community that she's getting more attached to. Scott Alexander defending pro-scientific racism arguments with, I argue things I don't actually believe. So then why are we doing it? Economist Robin Hanson, raising the idea of sex redistribution, the government forcing women to fuck men, which he totally doesn't actually support. Also, Robin Hanson, father of the prediction market. He's the guy who invented them. Elaz Yudkowsky, who along with writing Harry Potter fanfic, muses a lot about benevolent AI governments. And so she's now in 2015 going to these meetups where she's meeting like other bloggers and she's sort of kind of absorbing a lot of what they're talking about.

• 24:20Ryan Broderick?

  I think her sort of like trick is that she she was able to sort of, I think, authoritatively, apply a lot of the doomer AI, end of democracy, neo reactionary, feudalist sort of talk to sex and gender. And and that is sort of what she's still doing to this day is like taking their weird fucked up way of like wanting to catalog all of human existence and sort of say what is good or bad and sort of apply it to sex and gender. Yeah, and that's her niche in these circles. At one point she talks about throwing a naked party and says people only talked about global trade, which is, you know, all to say like, I don't want to hang out with her. I wouldn't want to hang out with her.

• 25:03Speaker 03

  There are a surprising amount of people that do. I she didn't she have.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Well, to be fair, they mostly want to fuck her like that. And that's, I think that's the other thing that's worth noting about her whole thing is that because she is fundamentally a sex worker, her entire thing is essentially a huge conversion funnel to her OnlyFans.

• 25:26Ryan Broderick?

  Yes, the OnlyFans comes a bit later. But she's doing different kinds of sex work and she's carving out this lane that I think is like rewarding her for being more and more reactionary. For example, during the Me Too movement, Ayla wrote on her Substack, Knowing Less. And she writes, "The world is not safe for us, seems to be the message. I felt weird and confused because I have never felt this despite having been a sex worker. How is it that everyone's getting abused around me and I'm left untouched and ignorant to this?" That's an episode of Always Sunny in Philadelphia, by the way. That's like an entire plotline with Mac and his gym teacher.

• 26:05Ryan Broderick?

  But then I remembered, I actually was a victim of sexual assault. There were many instances in my life that might qualify. I was molested as a child, stalked and chased in deserted streets, grew up at a party, forced into a handjob despite clearly and repeatedly saying no. The forced sexual contact was really annoying and uncomfortable, but I wasn't afraid they would hurt me. But with the Me Too campaign, I felt a pressure to view the things that happened to me as part of this systemic abuse narrative. Please realize I'm not necessarily making an argument against the Me Too campaign. It's very possible that the benefits are greater than this cost. I don't know if Me Too is a net benefit or not, but I see nobody discussing the potential downsides and I feel cultural pressure not to. So here's a big list of all the systemic abuse I have suffered and here's why I don't believe that it's systemic abuse, basically.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  When she says cost, what is she talking about? What, what, what does she mean by that?

• 26:55Speaker 04

  That it's forcing women to think of themselves as victims if these things happen to them.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:01Speaker 04

  Her point is she's like, I view these horrible, these things that happened to me as annoying.

• 27:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 27:05Speaker 04

  Nothing. She's not suppressing any feelings there, but if she categorized them as like big life altering changes, it would, it would, that would hurt her more. So our, our cultural focus of saying we should stop these things, the, the cost is that now women are going to view themselves as victims.

• 27:22Speaker 02

  That just makes me so sad.

• 27:24Speaker 04

  It is really sad.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. It, it, it's sort of like adjacent to this thinking. Uh, I'm sure you saw Marc Andreessen sort of recently talking about how to be powerful, to, to move the world, you have to have no introspection. You shouldn't think about yourself and things that happen to you and had like impacts off of that. And I mean, it makes sense that some of these like sort of rationalist, like future, futurist type people like think this way because they ultimately it's progress no matter what, right? Like what this is right now is trivial of what's like trivial compared to what's to come. So they don't even, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, I think that's where she is coming from here. And I think you're also right that it's like, she's sort of

• 28:06Speaker 03

  trying to do like a have it both ways where it's like she's giving credence to the like, oh, you know, like she can pivot based off of whatever side sort of wins out culturally here.

• 28:16Ryan Broderick?

  I know this is a loaded term and I'm going to use it anyways because like we don't really have a replacement. There's this specific kind of centrist pick me. That like Barry Weiss and Ayla are like very, very guilty of where it's like, I'm in the boys' club. I think this is all a bit much. Like, I saw this so much when I was living in London with like,

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:37Ryan Broderick?

  These like second wave jacket over a dress with Doc Martens feminists that were like, it's all a bit, it's all a bit nonsensical, isn't it? Like,

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Well, they're all turfs.

• 28:48Ryan Broderick?

  And, and they're all sort of like, the kind of girl who can like have a cigar with the boys in the back room. And then it's like, well, this woman is doing that. And then she's also listing all of the times that she's been abused in those spaces. And like, you can see the cognitive dissonance just sort of shaking around in this, in this blog post. And it's, uh, yeah, sad is the word I would use for it.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  I, I, I think she is also just very good at reading the internet, like the, the mood of the internet. I mean, just looking back at some of her earlier posts, she was sort of on the forefront of like that chungus mindset. And then, and then,

• 29:24Ryan Broderick?

  The chungus mindset is like such a good book, like to write. Just, I wanna be, I, I wanna be chungus maxing as hard as I can, actually. I,

• 29:33Speaker 03

  Chungus maxing?

• 29:34Ryan Broderick?

  I, I wanna, I wanna Reddit elf wife and I wanna learn to make bread and I wanna just like have a Funko Pop bedroom and,

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 29:43Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 29:46Speaker 04

  You need some like, you need some very specific gum. Like something like, it's, you know, branded to help your job.

• 29:52Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, doughy and soft.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 29:54Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, yeah. I'm gonna start buying, I bet I could get a bunch of American Apparel hoodies on eBay right now for like a pretty good price.

• 30:02Speaker 03

  And, and I think like she, she was able to like get that chungus mindset. She was on the forefront of that. And then right as, around 2016, 2015, it sounds like, right as sort of like this new fascism, sort of, uh, esoteric nihilism is sort of ascendant, uh, uh, among a certain section of the online and just like society generally, she was also first to that wave. She can really read the room.

• 30:25Ryan Broderick?

  You are so right. In fact, that is literally what we have next for you, which is, uh,

• 30:30Speaker 03

  Do you ever think about how much you think about awful things?

• 30:32Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Just day to day. It's like, Ayla, I have to fucking think about Ayla.

• 30:37Ryan Broderick?

  No, hold on.

• 30:37Speaker 03

  Somebody's gotta do it.

• 30:38Ryan Broderick?

  You know, you guys are so good at getting me to go off on tangents. I have to rant about this because Hassan Piker, I'm a fan. I think he's really talented. He's been on a fucking press tear lately since the Oscars being like, woe is me, my brain is broken from looking at the internet. And I'm like, this is the best job in the whole world. What are you talking about? I get to sit on the computer all day and look at new freaks. Like, this is not a real job.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  Every day a new one drops.

• 31:05Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, I have to like, look at the internet all day and think about it. Work at an oil rig if you don't like it. This is, this is great. I am sorry.

• 31:13Speaker 03

  What I'll say, Hassan is a ho- I fuck with Hassan, he's a homie.

• 31:17Ryan Broderick?

  I love him.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Do you think that Hassan Piker has ever watched top 10 hottest Sonic female characters?

• 31:22Ryan Broderick?

  Honestly, Hassan, come on the show. We will teach you to love the internet again and we will show you Sonic Inflation fetish art until you tap out. Like, whatever you want to do.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  It's about what you consume. It really changes it, yeah.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Did you ever have a period of time where it was, it was hurting you? And like, did you like, change how you framed it for yourself?

• 31:41Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, ISIS. ISIS was, the period where ISIS was allowed to post freely on the internet and having to cover that was like, not fun. Cause that was like, actual, that, that's not like memes. That's like, that's like crimes against humanity that were being uploaded to YouTube as music videos. But that was not fun.

• 31:57Speaker 03

  The US government does it.

• 31:58Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. But like, when the US government does it, they're using like Halo footage and they're like, fucking Ty- Ty- what is his name? Tyler Sheridan, like, fucking like, uh,

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Taylor.

• 32:08Ryan Broderick?

  Taylor Sheridan Yellowstone clips, like, whatever.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  Someone, someone could easily make a through line, some argument, some paper, a book about ISIS posting a line to Donald Trump's second term posting a line.

• 32:19Ryan Broderick?

  A hundred percent.

• 32:20Speaker 03

  There's a through line there, yeah.

• 32:20Ryan Broderick?

  It's identical. It's, it's completely identical.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  I just need them to not discover Marathon. They've already ruined it, so I can't let them take Marathon as well.

• 32:28Ryan Broderick?

  Honestly, they should just like, you know, have someone build Seacott in Pokemon Pokopia or something like, you know, like, Pal World's probably a better game for that, honestly.

• 32:38Speaker 03

  They, they would do, yeah, they would do it.

• 32:40Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. So, back to Ayla. As Jim was sort of alluding to, she is learning how to catch these waves as they're happening. Here's some trends. Between 2015 and 2016, it's just like, straight up sexual curiosity polls. A lot of that stuff of like, if you had to like, look at child pornography to defuse a bomb, would you? That kind of shit.

• 32:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:58Ryan Broderick?

  Then in 2017, she like, Question when you really. Yeah, whoa. Like if you really, if you really like. Well, like, the reason they're obsessed with these is because, like, they have convinced themselves that this AI supercomputer of the future that will, like, find a way. I don't want to go into Roko's Basilisk right now. If people listening want to, like, learn more about this, just Google Roko's Basilisk. You can learn all about it. But they sort of believe that the AI of the future will create, like, extreme moral dilemmas that we must navigate to birth this new AI-led society. And so they're constantly sort of arguing about this stuff.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  I would argue that a piece of it, too, is that they just don't think that taboos are real or have a real purpose, you know?

• 33:46Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, and we see some real trends in her Twitter polls. 2017, there's a lot of morality stuff, for instance. Do you believe the view, some viewpoints exist that are so outrageous or offensive that they deserve to be shut down or suppressed? Would you rather get stuck raising a child that's not yours from a woman who cheated on you or lose your hands? 2018, there's more philosophical thought experiments, for instance. In one room, a child is about to die. In the other room, an evil demon is about to raise the cost of all grocery items in the world to a percent. You can either save the child or kill the demon, but not both. Which do you choose?

• 34:21Speaker 02

  Says a lot about society.

• 34:22Ryan Broderick?

  2019, we see more culture war stuff. By 2020, you get questions like this. Putting your potential libertarianism aside, parentheses, would you support a government program that paid a moderate? I mean, that's a weird assumption to make of her own audience, isn't it? Would you support a government program that paid a moderate monthly stipend to people who've tested positive for severe genetic illnesses, as long as they don't reproduce? Obviously, the next, very logical through line, yeah? Yeah, and you see how this feeds into one another. You get very dorm room questions. Yeah, you know, that try to dehumanize things in really abstract ways. And then you inevitably, you know, start talking about what's best for society. And then, of course, she starts talking about eugenics.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  We talk a lot about this stuff on Ill Conceived also, just like the sort of weird pseudo-academic sort of alternate stack that they are building. And the craziest thing is that a lot of these organizations have ties to like the old line eugenicist movement at the beginning of the 20th century and a lot of like actual Nazis, like not Nazis in the sense that everybody's a fucking Nazi now, but like going back to paid up Nazi party members from the 20s, 30s.

• 35:36Speaker 03

  There's like monetary links over the decades from those to today.

• 35:41Ryan Broderick?

  That's crazy. And much like eugenicists trying to breed the perfect human, after the break, we're gonna talk about Ayla trying to solve dating and sex and human hygiene because she's now fully on her rationalist quest. But first, a word from our sponsors, reason.com.

• 35:59Speaker 00

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• 36:36Ryan Broderick?

  You sort of brought the question of like, how does Ayla think about trans people, sort of gender identity?

• 36:42Speaker 03

  From what I remember, she's neutral at best. She's not like anti-trans. I could be totally wrong, but my read of her is she is like neutral on like those sort of issues.

• 36:52Ryan Broderick?

  I imagine her natural quirk, chunkus Tumblr girl personality wants to sort of identify as like a demisexual otherkin.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  In a different world, she would have that in her bio, yeah.

• 37:03Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, but she can't be like plant kin. So she has to figure out like a new way to do it. So in 2019, she writes, "I'm starting to dislike using preferred pronouns for non-binary and genderqueer people. This is a really controversial thing to say on my social circles, but what, whenever I use a preferred pronoun, it feels a bit like I'm playing a game of pretend. My brain does not play along. It sits on my shoulder like a child. She's a woman, it says. She's a woman and you're pretending, I mean, she used non-binary pronouns for her brain and just in that sentence.

• 37:37Ryan Broderick?

  So it's not that hard. They can do and feel and present however they want, and it's none of my business. You do you, man. But it sort of becomes my business when they're asking me to change my behavior and thoughts. This leads to fear of being honest with most people who ask me to use preferred pronouns, and I feel sad about that."

• 37:52Speaker 02

  It's, I don't know. I mean, it's like, I'm not gonna talk to you anyway, lady.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  There will never be an instance where you have to refer to me. Yeah, yeah. And it's also one of those things, it's like, you see this like Ben Shapiro, best example always will be the best example, being interviewed by, I forget who, but talking about how, like, if you saw someone who's like presenting as a woman, like, it's like, you're not like actively, it's not something you actively think about it. It's a like social presentation thing. If someone is presenting as a woman, your brain will almost certainly automatically gender that person how they are presenting. And to that point in that interview, he accidentally genders the person correctly and then has to correct himself to be like transphobic to gender them incorrectly. And it's like, it's not something that people have to actively think about it.

• 38:39Speaker 03

  It's very performative whenever these people are like, "Oh, it's like tearing me apart." It's like, it's not. Like, you're performing for-

• 38:44Speaker 02

  You are tearing me apart, gender.

• 38:47Ryan Broderick?

  They/them.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  It's a very performative thing, even, even like the most hateful among like J.K. Rowling, like all these people. It's all so performative.

• 38:56Ryan Broderick?

  This is a great point from Grant's non-binary partner who uses they/them pronouns. They said, "Isn't her whole thing playing pretend with hypotheticals?"

• 39:08Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, so can't really handle that, I guess, too much. Can imagine a god computer in the future that can put you in cyber hell fraternity, but can't imagine using they/them-

• 39:18Speaker 03

  The computer, it doesn't know they/them. The computer can't figure it out.

• 39:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, yeah, the computer has gender essentialist thoughts, yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  One and zeros.

• 39:26Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 02

  Has nothing.

• 39:27Ryan Broderick?

  That's right.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  By literally by there.

• 39:29Ryan Broderick?

  There's all, there's only two classifications of a human being in the eventual AI apocalypse. Who can be hooked up to some sort of milking machine? And who can't?

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:41Ryan Broderick?

  And I'm not talking about like milk.

• 39:44Speaker 02

  I before, when you started that sentence, I was like, Ryan is about to talk about milking machines.

• 39:48Ryan Broderick?

  Ah, I'm in your brain, Grant.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  I'm in your.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  It's disgusting what China is doing with those machines.

• 39:55Ryan Broderick?

  It's disgusting that they still have Jordan Peterson hooked up to one of those.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  He's, he's tapped out.

• 40:02Ryan Broderick?

  There's no milking sessions. Yeah.

• 40:05Speaker 02

  I'm trying, I'm trying. Please.

• 40:12Ryan Broderick?

  Okay, let's get into the sort of decline I talked about before the break. She starts working on a game theory informed dating app in 2018, which involves like cryptocurrency, obviously. 2019, she moves into, quote, "a big Bay Area rationalist group house." You know it smells crazy.

• 40:29Speaker 03

  Oh, you know it.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Shit, literally.

• 40:31Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. She starts an OnlyFans a year later, which gets her a GQ cover story about her use of the platform. She is obviously still conducting her surveys. She gets in trouble in April 2020 for having a Twitter poll that, that reads, "You get into a disc-" Oh my God. "You get into a discussion about the N-word, about how it's used and societal attitudes towards it." "Your black friend says you don't have to say the N-word, you can just say it directly in this conversation." "It's okay." And then, "Do you say it directly?" "No, stick with the N-word." "Yes, with an A, with an A at the end." "Yes, with an R at the end."

• 41:10Speaker 02

  Come on.

• 41:10Ryan Broderick?

  Okay. What's the tweet? Like, everyone's 12 now. Like, this is just like fucking, like, this is stupid shit.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  Can't figure out they/them, but is in a scenario where she has to say the N-word or else?

• 41:20Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:20Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:21Ryan Broderick?

  Right. These people are dumb. Like, and I think.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 41:25Ryan Broderick?

  I, I remember this experience when I, I was covering the crypto industry for magazines right after COVID, which was honestly like the best reporting job I've ever had. These people are fucking freaks and like.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Do you ever talk to Vitalik Buterin?

• 41:38Ryan Broderick?

  I never met him. No, I met a few other like heads of dApps and shit, but never him, no.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Because that was one where I also remember when the the whole crypto boom was happening. I was like, well, I should see what the like intellectual underpinnings of this shit are.

• 41:52Ryan Broderick?

  Big mistake.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  And so I huge mistake because I when I read his blog.

• 41:57Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 02

  And I was like, this guy doesn't know anything about anything.

• 42:01Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Not only is he like ill informed, he doesn't even know what he doesn't know.

• 42:08Ryan Broderick?

  It's awesome.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  He doesn't understand that like all of these problems he is trying to solve, that other people have tried to solve these problems in different ways. And therefore his solution is doomed to fail because he is repeating past mistakes.

• 42:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, it's so sick. Um, I I just remember like, I think I was like outside of a convention, maybe in Miami or something. And I just had this like overwhelming feeling of like, oh, everyone here is fucking stupid. Or or they're being stupid on purpose to make money like they're these people are either predators or dupes.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  It's it's a thing that like

• 42:41Ryan Broderick?

  It was very freeing.

• 42:42Speaker 03

  Is still happening right now is like these people will say these controversial things for really no reason. There's like nothing to be gained here, but what's what they are actually gaining, what the real purpose of it is, is just that they get to laugh about that. And the reaction to that in their group chats and feel like really cool and like counter cultural. I mean, you still even see that from people like, as I mentioned before, Mark Andreessen. The I don't know if either of you have been like watching how he's been posting recently, but he's like, sounds indistinguishable from like a school shooter, like 19 year old.

• 43:13Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  And it's like, he is like, bro is 50. Why is he talking like indistinguishable from like a clavicular like post on like Twitter, like some weird like kick streaming Twitter account? It's because they want to feel cool. They want to feel counter cultural. They want to feel like a counterweight to like normal, like a polite society. But in turn, what it really just feels like is that they're just sort of like school shooter posting.

• 43:36Ryan Broderick?

  I I've talked about this on the show before, but like I volunteered a special needs camp every summer and I've been doing this since I was a kid with my dad. And I have a pretty hard line about, you know, the the special needs community, the the. And the return of the R word, I think, has just been a disaster for America. And the fact that someone like Marc Andreessen can say the word retard maxing on a podcast and get no pushback from anyone in his industry sort of deflated me in a way that like I wasn't really anticipating.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  This return is like being led by like 40 and 50 year olds who like want to be cool. They want to be in the limelight of posting. They want to be what like early Twitter, like what was it called? Normal Twitter, what was that called? Like the original like word drill, all those like original.

• 44:22Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, weird Twitter.

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Weird Twitter, normal Twitter. That's.

• 44:26Ryan Broderick?

  I mean, it's the opposite. These days, weird Twitter feels like normal Twitter.

• 44:31Speaker 02

  Hey, that's what I'm saying.

• 44:32Speaker 03

  They want to be like that new wave of whatever that is for themselves. Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  I think that breaking people down into categories and then sort of removing those categories of people from public discourse or even being seen as people altogether. That's the point of the project. And that's the point of bringing slurs like that back as well. Because if you can categorically say people who have like intellectual support needs aren't really people like you and me, then yeah, you're going to be able to cleave away against more and more and more people to put yourself on a higher and higher pedestal. All this coming from a man who looks like goddamn.

• 45:11Ryan Broderick?

  He looks like an egg.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  I'm not about it.

• 45:13Ryan Broderick?

  Looks like a little egg.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  And all these people have a lot of thoughts about eugenicism, which is interesting.

• 45:18Ryan Broderick?

  They do. What you were, what you guys were saying about sort of like this being a way to break society down and sort of change it is best actually summed up by a post from Ayla in 2021 titled "Indefensive Edginess." Oh, wow. I need, could you imagine anything more aggressively 2021 than that title? Jesus fucking Christ. She writes, "Imagine you are mean, don't have a lot of empathy and enjoy making people mad." I would say you've just become a podcaster.

• 45:48Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 45:48Ryan Broderick?

  "You go on the internet and you post the most provocative takes you can find." "Maybe Trump should be grabbing more women by the pussy," you tweet on one account, "and I'm not sure we shouldn't be discussing white extermination on the other." I mean, honestly, that second one goes pretty hard, like, "White extermination, see my band playing."

• 46:09Ryan Broderick?

  And people say, "Why are you being so edgy?" And/or, "You seem to be getting off on making people upset." Now imagine you live in a society.

• 46:19Speaker 02

  Okay, thinking about it.

• 46:21Ryan Broderick?

  Imagine you live in a society where pedophilia is the norm, and children are forced to engage in sex acts on adults.

• 46:28Speaker 02

  Sure, man, okay, yeah, let's imagine it. What wonderful fruits will this odd experiment have? I can't wait to find out.

• 46:36Ryan Broderick?

  Josh, imagine you live in a society where bananas are bicycles.

• 46:42Ryan Broderick?

  So imagine you live in a society where pedophilia is the norm, and children are forced to engage in sex acts on adults. You think real hard about this, conclude it's really bad, and then run around going, "Hey, we're literally traumatizing children. This is horrible for our culture, maybe we should stop." And people say, "Why are you being so edgy?" "In my ideal world, my friends and I would sit around figuring out what sorts of thoughts we don't want to think, because to me, this is inherently interesting and fun. I absolutely relish the rare occasion when someone asks me a question that triggers unexpected disgust in me. I am not bad, I am not cackling like an asshole who wants to watch the internet burn. I'm childlike in this, and I actively enjoy my own discomfort and want to share that enjoyment with others."

• 47:25Speaker 02

  This is so fucking homeschool, Brian, man.

• 47:26Ryan Broderick?

  It's so goddamn dumb.

• 47:29Speaker 02

  It's really, truly the sorts of thoughts you could only have if you didn't grow up around other people already kind of having these discussions when you were 12 years old, you know? And then, when you get a bit older than that, coming to the circle and being like, "Hey, guys, check this out. What if everybody was a pedophile?" And then having everybody be like, "What are you talking about? I don't want to be around you." You know, like, that's the normal reaction to people saying something like that. But if you haven't had the shit kicked out of you, if you haven't been ostracized for being a fucking- Unpleasant weirdo, you're going to be like, well, I'm just a little different. I'm a little bit of a pedophile for a chunk, you know?

• 48:13Ryan Broderick?

  That's right.

• 48:13Speaker 03

  It's like, it's also one of those things where it's like, she, she strikes me as a person. I'm sure you've run across these people that are like, well, if you don't have God in society, how are you going to figure out what morals are? I don't know. Things that hurt people are bad and should not be good. You should not harm other people. That's like, you don't need a God there to know what is hurtful to other people. But like, that, that doesn't register for some people. And she, that's sort of like the same mindset she has. It's like, where she's like, wow, it's like really deep if you think about like, what if everyone was pedophiles? It's like, no, that would literally not ever happen, like.

• 48:48Speaker 02

  Right, and it's also like, what if, man? Like, that's not an interesting question. You know what I mean? I think that's the thing that really gets me is not, oh God, I'm so triggered by this world in which everybody is a pedophile. It's just like, I don't, there, there's no utility in that thought experiment. It doesn't tell us.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  I think, I think, I think these people confuse, maybe purposely, maybe they genuinely don't understand what the, the reaction is. They, they think being annoyed and just repulsed by people is like triggering the libs. So when people are like, oh, this is like kind of fucking an insane thing to say. They're like, triggered. It's like, I mean, no, I'm like pointing and laughing at you. Like, I'm laughing at how insane you are. Like, there is no triggering happening here.

• 49:31Ryan Broderick?

  This also just like to me screams of someone who like has no cultural awareness because like, so like, okay, in, in college, I had a group of friends that we would do, I think, what do we call it?

• 49:46Ryan Broderick?

  Like.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  Chung guessing?

• 49:47Ryan Broderick?

  Sexy murder Sundays or something, where we would try to find the most transgressive, just horrific piece of film we could watch, right?

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:56Ryan Broderick?

  Salo 120 Days of Sodom or whatever, a Serbian film, Dog Tooth.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  Human Centipede.

• 50:02Ryan Broderick?

  I think we didn't do Human Centipede because we were both, we were all like, that's kind of lame. Like, that, this one isn't really going to bother us. Yeah.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  Magic Mike.

• 50:09Ryan Broderick?

  And, and Magic Mike, yeah.

• 50:13Ryan Broderick?

  But what was so like, kind of nice about doing that in a college setting at that time was like, actually like learning to appreciate and understand transgressive art and like understand the point of it. And that is why I find it extremely tedious if I'm in a room and someone's like, what if the whole world was pedophiles? I'm like, nah, man, what if my stomach was a VCR?

• 50:33Ryan Broderick?

  What if I was James Woods and I had to cut Debbie Harry's nipples off? Because my stomach was a VCR. What if I was sexually attracted to car crashes? Like, the world is so much larger and more interesting when you actually sort of have a barometer for like genuinely upsetting weird art. And this is boring. This is boring shit.

• 50:52Speaker 02

  In order to have that, you need to have an actual perspective, both artistically and rhetorically. You can't just be addicted to asking edgy questions. You have, you have to have the desire and the willingness to do something with it.

• 51:06Ryan Broderick?

  Right. And so like all of these people in Silicon Valley who are doing all this, like to me, I just look at them and I think you have no awareness of like human history before you, because all of these questions have been asked. Art has been made about them, like people have been writing about this. These are not new. They're not interesting. And because you've slapped AI, it's sort of the end goal of your philosophy. You feel like it has sort of a renewed interest, but it doesn't. There's nothing there. And I think post-COVID, that's becoming clear that it's having diminishing returns for these people. Yeah. But where does that leave these dork chunguses? That have made this their brand. In A-list case, the stunts have only gotten bigger. The gangbang? The gangbang. So a bit of prologue here.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  She has ruined flow charts for me. God damn it.

• 51:53Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, we're gonna start with a little bit of prologue. And she publishes her 2022 stats. Oh, yeah. Because, yeah, how can you be logical without keeping any data? And so her 2022 stats include, this year, I went outside 222 times. I pooped 194 times.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Bad, real. Oh, she's gonna.

• 52:19Ryan Broderick?

  I'm worried about her. That's so bad.

• 52:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, she needs a fucking colonoscopy.

• 52:23Ryan Broderick?

  She did clarify, that's not the amount of times per day. That's like. She pooped. If she pooped, yeah. And so she pooped, she pooped. She pooped more than that.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  But there were 194 days on which she pooped?

• 52:36Speaker 03

  So there was like 160 days where she did not.

• 52:39Ryan Broderick?

  That's like.

• 52:40Speaker 03

  That's still bad.

• 52:41Ryan Broderick?

  Half the year that she wasn't pooping.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 52:43Ryan Broderick?

  That's really bad. That's.

• 52:45Speaker 03

  You gotta get some fiber. You gotta be a daily.

• 52:48Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, this girl's got a turd in the chamber, folks. Oh, wait, hold on, guys. There's, there's, there's an explanation here. Took Adderall 126 times.

• 53:03Ryan Broderick?

  That would explain it. Okay, yeah.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 53:05Ryan Broderick?

  Okay, um, she had sex 63 times.

• 53:08Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 53:08Ryan Broderick?

  And then, of course, the one of honestly, the grossest things I've ever seen on the internet. She showered 37 times.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Crazy.

• 53:17Ryan Broderick?

  So just, just so we all have that, uh, 365. She showered every 10 days or so.

• 53:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:27Speaker 03

  That's astounding. See, like, the, the, the best reading possible is like, did she mean like she didn't like shampoo and condition her hair? Or did she like just straight up not touch water for like 10 days?

• 53:41Ryan Broderick?

  I think she's like dry.

• 53:44Speaker 03

  She's not moist.

• 53:45Ryan Broderick?

  She's just, or I think she is probably moist, actually, because she's not showering every two weeks.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Then showers by twice, by double margin.

• 53:54Ryan Broderick?

  She did. She, yeah, I didn't say that one.

• 53:56Speaker 04

  I know she's cool.

• 53:57Ryan Broderick?

  She had sex, uh, 63 times, only showered 37. So that's actually dangerous. She, this girl is not pooping and she's not showering after sex. Uh.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  Look, I don't kink shame here. Maybe someone's into that. There's probably someone really into that.

• 54:12Speaker 02

  I'm just thinking about the times that I have gone for more than like four days without showering, which is like when I'm sick, you know?

• 54:20Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah.

• 54:20Speaker 02

  And I literally can't do it and how bad I smell after that time. And I am now imagining showering once every 10 days.

• 54:29Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, it's insane. And to be clear, she says she doesn't smell and has like retrained her body to clean itself. Um, but things get obviously worse, uh, for, for us having to talk about this.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 54:44Speaker 03

  Just the horrible.

• 54:44Ryan Broderick?

  In 2023, she posted a dating profile on a prediction market.

• 54:50Ryan Broderick?

  She accuses time of lying that there's misogyny in the rationalist scene as everyone is sort of like gambling over her sex life.

• 54:58Speaker 03

  Um.

• 55:00Ryan Broderick?

  And then we get to the gangbang. So, uh, February 2024, Ayla has her birthday gangbang.

• 55:09Speaker 02

  As you do.

• 55:10Ryan Broderick?

  She has a blog about it, which I fucking shit you not, opens with a Nelson Mandela quote.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  That's good.

• 55:18Speaker 03

  She's insane. She's so good at this.

• 55:20Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, she's.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  I love, I kind of love her as a thing. It's.

• 55:25Speaker 03

  You can apply to data.

• 55:26Ryan Broderick?

  I watched a video of like John Mayer, like playing guitar recently, and this is what it feels like reading her blogs.

• 55:35Speaker 03

  This is the thing is like, say what you will about her and her insane takes, but she is a fucking savant.

• 55:41Ryan Broderick?

  She knows what she's doing.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  She can post.

• 55:43Ryan Broderick?

  Um, the quote, by the way, the Mandela quote that she uses is, I learned.

• 55:52Ryan Broderick?

  I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not who he is, is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  This is what I say to myself when I am prepping my hole.

• 56:08Ryan Broderick?

  Here, let me, I can show you, uh, the robes that the men in attendance were given, which read, I went to the Ayla birth, uh, B-day gangbang. And all I got was this bathrobe and also to fuck a porn star.

• 56:20Speaker 03

  This is so fucking Quirk Chungus. She's so, it's there. It's always there. The, the previous Quirk Chungus to like edgy nihilist, that, that like, they have it in them. Any of these like edgy people, you see them talk in person. It's like, oh, it's just a dweeb Chungus.

• 56:36Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. Uh, these are the, this is a huddle of fluffers in the pre-game huddle.

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Love that. Love that.

• 56:42Ryan Broderick?

  Uh, another Quirk Chungus thing here is a sticker that she handed out for her gangbang.

• 56:46Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 56:47Ryan Broderick?

  Um, yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  The entire orgy cost $3,335, I'm seeing.

• 56:52Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah. I mean, that's, I imagine there's some sort of buffet. I, I.

• 56:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 56:56Ryan Broderick?

  I would assume what it is.

• 56:57Speaker 02

  She must have taken care of her gusts.

• 56:58Ryan Broderick?

  Oh.

• 56:59Speaker 02

  I'll tell you what though, she's probably looking like a damn snack. I'd eat the whole fucking buffet. Folks, folks.

• 57:06Ryan Broderick?

  Well, we have data on who ate the buffet, who didn't. Sort of.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  And Josh is in there, actually. We found him.

• 57:13Ryan Broderick?

  So here.

• 57:13Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 57:13Ryan Broderick?

  Here's the flow chart kind of thing of the gangbang data. So we've got

• 57:20Ryan Broderick?

  1,600 people. Yeah, 1,600 people responded to her survey. 800 of them didn't pass the auto filter. Couple more filters. We end up with 250 people contacted. End up with 87 invites. 56 of those get tickets. 43 of them do STD testing.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  It's interesting. All 25 friends immediately passed the screening. Whereas 83 of them who were not friends had to interview, of which 21 were rejected.

• 57:51Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, that is interesting data. 42 people showed up. Five didn't bang her. 37 penetrated her. And then I don't want to read the last one here because it's just like gross.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  You don't want the cum breakdown? What's wrong with the cum breakdown?

• 58:05Ryan Broderick?

  I don't want to read. I don't want to read the cum breakdown.

• 58:09Speaker 02

  Is the most important part.

• 58:10Ryan Broderick?

  Okay.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  Right? I think you should read the cum breakdown.

• 58:13Ryan Broderick?

  So then there finally there's a cum breakdown. And 17 people came in her and seven and five people came in the fluffer. And 15 people didn't come.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  That's crazy that 15.

• 58:25Ryan Broderick?

  That's a lot.

• 58:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:27Speaker 03

  They had three minutes to have sex with her and a long line to wait.

• 58:30Speaker 02

  Were they all dudes?

• 58:33Ryan Broderick?

  I imagine. Okay, wait. So 10 women attended.

• 58:38Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 58:38Ryan Broderick?

  Two to help out. And just look hot and run the coat check. And then there were eight fluffers.

• 58:45Speaker 02

  Got it. So all the women in attendance were.

• 58:47Ryan Broderick?

  And I do remember this. There was a whole detail that was going around that like one of the men fell in love with one of the fluffers.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 58:55Ryan Broderick?

  Many such cases. I mean, that happened.

• 58:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. You know that song, I'm in love with a stripper? What if?

• 59:01Ryan Broderick?

  I'm in love with a fluffer at a rationalist gangbang. Good.

• 59:05Speaker 03

  I was actually thinking true love will find you in the end, you know?

• 59:09Ryan Broderick?

  And, uh, yes, uh, chances are she did not shower either before or after this because she said that she only showered 24 times in 2024.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 59:20Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, that's way less.

• 59:21Speaker 02

  That's much less.

• 59:22Ryan Broderick?

  That's like.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  That's once every 15 days.

• 59:24Ryan Broderick?

  That's like, yeah, that's like once, like, that's.

• 59:26Speaker 03

  She was, she was basking in this afterwards for, for, uh, what would that be like two weeks?

• 59:31Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, just marinating in it.

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Not the fortnightly shower.

• 59:36Speaker 04

  Hypothetical for you, if you're kidnapped by the mafia and you have the choice of sharing before the gangbang or after the gangbang, but you have to pick one, which would Aaliyah pick?

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Uh, it depends on whether the mafia are pedophiles or not. I don't know why it depends, but it does.

• 59:56Ryan Broderick?

  So, so that's, that's the story of that. I, I hate all of this. Um, I mean, I, I should say, I enjoy talking about this. I just, I think that she is a, a curious figure. Um, and so as we wind down today, I would love you guys like parting thoughts here about like what this all means because like the fact that we are aware of her and know her and like, like that matters, I think in a way, like that says something that we have to know who this person is.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  I think for me, it's she, she looking at her past, she will always be amongst us. She sort of-

• 1:00:33Speaker 02

  She will be among us.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  She will be.

• 1:00:36Ryan Broderick?

  Among us.

• 1:00:39Speaker 03

  Six, seven, six, seven.

• 1:00:41Ryan Broderick?

  Six, seven.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  Um, sorry. Uh, but like she knows where the winds are always blowing. She, so like she is in this current rationalist space, maybe because she is partially there herself, but I think she understands that it's like sort of a, a good way to market herself. It's sort of an audience that she has captured at this point. And I think that if the winds blow, continue to blow in some different direction going forward, we will find herself at the apex of another different movement, whatever that might be. I, I think she is just like a really perfect example of someone that knows how to occupy a lot of people's minds for just like insane reasons.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  One thing I will add to that is that the nice thing about her is that if you're standing fairly close to her, you'll always know which way the wind is blowing, at least if you're downwind.

• 1:01:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and I think, and I, and I think she like, those, those-

• 1:01:37Speaker 03

  But I think it's like, it's no mistake that she is like surrounding herself by, or she is being surrounded by a lot of these like tech leaders like Marc Andreessen. She, she has like a lot of overlap with a lot of the people running and ruining the world right now. And that's also no coincidence. These people want to create like an alternative, edgy ecosystem of like intellectuals, of academics, of journalists that don't quite fit in, right? It's sort of like, she is, she is doing this for her own purposes, but a lot of people around her, especially above her with the money are sort of, maybe not propping her up with money, but you know, like, she is in their orbit for a specific ideological purpose.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  Something that I think I'm interested in is just the rise of the sort of specialist e-girl. And I think she very much falls into that category, right? Where there are lots of different people who are, you know, adult content creators who understand that in order to capture a specific market, you need to present yourself in a certain way. Now, to be clear, I don't think that's why she's doing everything of what she's doing. I think she's also in it for the love of the game. But I think that a lot of the reason that these sort of influential tech people are so into her shit is that they're also subscribing to her OnlyFans. And so there's an interesting sort of give and take there

• 1:03:04Speaker 02

  in terms of she is providing them with a sort of type of content that they are interested with, engaging with, and jorking it to. But then, on the flip, she then is able to gain a profile from the fact that they do engage with her content. You know what I mean?

• 1:03:21Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, I think you're both correct. And I think that like, you can kind of see in her trajectory... The creation of this new sphere of culture and influence in Silicon Valley, which I think has been very confusing for a lot of people because I even am sort of confused by this because you would think that the people who created the way the internet works now would know things about it, like have any sort of like context. And what we learned is like they all left COVID lockdown and revealed that they didn't. They weren't paying attention for the last 15 years. And so it has been sort of maddening to watch these people reinvent like the cringiest shit

• 1:04:04Ryan Broderick?

  from First Principles over and over again. And she is an example of that. She is, she is doing the exact same thing on X that and Substack that she was doing on 4chan, literally 10, 15 years ago. And that sucks. That just, I think that sucks. I think that sucks for everybody. It feels like Eternal September, but for like all of American culture over and over and over again.

• 1:04:31Speaker 04

  I feel like it's worse because on 4chan, she was trying to be funny. Like, like

• 1:04:39Ryan Broderick?

  I would, I would hesitate to, to say that she's not being funny. I think that like there's always kind of this like assumption that the weird freaks online are totally serious. And I think that's doubly true for when women are being weird freaks online. But like, I bet you there's like a good sense of irony running through this whole thing. Like, the gangbang shit is a joke.

• 1:04:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:00Ryan Broderick?

  I would even guess like, maybe the showering is a joke. Like, my, my brain is telling me that it has to be a joke. But like, I don't think that she is super self-serious. I think that she is, she is amusing herself. And I think that she's having fun in a way that she thinks is fun.

• 1:05:14Speaker 04

  No, no, I don't, I don't think she's an evil mastermind. But like, the stakes have raised.

• 1:05:20Ryan Broderick?

  Well, she has a closer connection to power. Yes. And influence. Yeah.

• 1:05:22Speaker 04

  You know, like, like undercarding, like, oh, I'm doing these like fun little sex surveys is like libertarians being like, yes, no, like, we don't need scientific method to, to record data. All these things undergird it, which is different than like, I had some white face paint and now I'm going to be a mime that's locked inside of my chair.

• 1:05:42Ryan Broderick?

  No one had a problem with Rasputin when he was a weird monk in the woods. Everyone had a problem when he had the ear of the royal family.

• 1:05:51Speaker 04

  I think I see what you're saying too, Grant. Like, there's a, there's a category.

• 1:05:55Ryan Broderick?

  Right?

• 1:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, there is a, there is a categorical difference between I am going to stage some photos where I'm getting dragged away by gnomes versus how do we feel about you?

• 1:06:10Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, 100%.

• 1:06:11Speaker 04

  Or like Byron, or like Brian Johnson, the in car life, there's like, I'm doing this goofy thing in my room versus like, this data is informing, like, should be used to inform, like, I'm a pioneer of self experimentation for optimizing myself is like a drastically different thing.

• 1:06:27Speaker 03

  And I think the thing that all of this represents is sort of like the cultural shift of a lot of the like, as we were talking about earlier, like, the more atheist, like, oh, let's like, really think about things, sort of philosophy mindset with like, the Chungus mindset of the 2010s, and how that shifted into sort of this like, futurist, like nihilist school shooting, school shooter mentality type posting of like, the tech world today, and like Silicon Valley. I think it's like, she represents like, almost sort of like, the perfect representation of a lot of these people's evolution out of the Chungus into the, into the.

• 1:07:11Ryan Broderick?

  Into the fire?

• 1:07:12Speaker 03

  Into the nihilism, into the fire, into the.

• 1:07:15Speaker 04

  The Chungus and into the.

• 1:07:19Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, out of the Chungus and into the fire. I want to thank you guys for coming on. This is, this is great. Genuinely a pleasure as always. If people want to follow you on the internet, where can they do that?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  Josh, you want to go first?

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I co-host a podcast called Ilconceived with my co-host, June.

• 1:07:38Speaker 03

  Hi.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Sitting here as well. We talk about natalism, which is the ideology that sees declining birth rates as the most important issue facing the world right now, which is not our position, but we're very interested in interrogating the people who do have that position. I wonder if Ella has ever talked about natalism, actually.

• 1:07:58Speaker 03

  I bet you she has.

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Is she on a birth rate kick?

• 1:08:01Ryan Broderick?

  Let's see.

• 1:08:01Speaker 02

  We'll have to look into it.

• 1:08:02Speaker 04

  Well, she's on Finding the Perfect Partner to Have Babies.

• 1:08:05Ryan Broderick?

  Yeah, eight months ago, eight, eight, eight months ago, I keep saying the reason for low birth rate is that our quality of life has increased in almost all aspects besides child rearing. The more luxury we have access to, the more luxury we lose out on by having kids.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, there we go. And then, yeah, classic Ella thing too, where it seems like a materialist taken a Marxist sense.

• 1:08:26Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, no. Oh, no, no. Last summer, she published on Substack, "I'm confused about birth rate and gays," and a bunch of-

• 1:08:36Speaker 03

  Oh, dude, Josh, we're gonna have to do an episode about-

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  We're gonna have to do an episode about Ella. Because it sounds to me like a lot of her ideas and assumptions are very similar to a lot of the people we talk about on our show.

• 1:08:47Ryan Broderick?

  Oh, birth order and gays, but she's also obsessed with birth, yeah, like, whether or not the order in which you're born determines whether you're gay or not is like a thing that floats around a lot. She's also obsessed with birth control, birth rates. Oh, yeah, you should absolutely do an episode on her.

• 1:09:01Speaker 03

  Oh, we're going to.

• 1:09:03Speaker 02

  I also co-host a podcast called The Worst of All Possible Worlds, and we talk about media, media culture. We do analysis of a different piece of media every week. We have a particular interest in weird reactionary guys there as well. And so, one of our topic, our comment topics conversation is "The Children's Radio Drama Adventures in Odyssey," a focus on the family production. If those words have done anything to your brain just now, you should go check out our show. I think you'll have a good time. And also, thank you both so much for having me on again. I had a blast.

• 1:09:37Ryan Broderick?

  Thanks so much. June, where can people follow you?

• 1:09:40Speaker 03

  So, of course, ill-conceived. Keep your eyes open for maybe an Ella episode. That'll maybe happen probably at some point. But I also do a show called Kill the Computer with my co-host Caleb. We sort of just talk about how, like, the internet spills into the real world, just sort of like the convergence that we've seen of like, a lot of technology, like AI, a lot of like AI freaks, and like, how that influences the politics that we see around us today. So, we recently just talked about like, the intentional political strategy of like, MAGA music, for example, and just like, the undergirding ideology and mechanisms underlying that. So, just, yeah, stuff like that, we talk about on that show. Check it out if that sounds interesting.

• 1:10:25Ryan Broderick?

  Thanks, guys.

• 1:10:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:10:29Ryan Broderick?

  Panic World is a production of Courier. It is written and produced by Grant Irving and hosted by me, Ryan Broderick. Josh Fialsted is our production coordinator and our amazing researcher is Adam Bumis. From Courier is Shane Verkest, who edits our video episodes, along with our producer, Devin Maroney, and National Managing Director and Executive Producer, Kevin Dreyfus. R.C. Demezzo is their VP of Brand and Social. Charlotte Robinson is their Deputy Director of Brand and Social. Mary Ann Kuga is their Director of Marketing, and Tracy Kaplan is the Senior Vice President of Sales and Distribution. If you want to sponsor the show or give us products to sell, she's the one to talk to. You can email her at [email protected].

• 1:11:10Ryan Broderick?

  Lastly, here's my advice for you: chill out and touch grass while you still can.