Selects: How Jim Henson Worked

We've already recorded an episode on The Muppets, but Jim Henson was such a neat guy we delved into him even further. Learn all about the man behind the Muppets who was so much more than just a master puppeteer in this classic episode. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:04Josh Clark?

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• 1:17Speaker 02

  and many, many times I go back to the ones on The Muppets and Jim Henson because he was just one of the best. This is from January 6, 2015, How Jim Henson Worked: American Hero. That's not part of the title. That's just me.

• 1:36Speaker 03

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:46Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark with Charles W. Chuck Bryant.

• 1:51Speaker 02

  Howdy.

• 1:52Josh Clark?

  And Jerry, for the last time this year.

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56Josh Clark?

  She's just informed us, and she's all smiles.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  She is.

• 1:59Josh Clark?

  Not very nice, Jerry.

• 2:02Speaker 02

  How'd you like that presentation earlier?

• 2:05Josh Clark?

  The sensitivity training?

• 2:06Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 2:06Josh Clark?

  It was great.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  Yes, people, because we work for a corporation. We have things like sensitivity trainings.

• 2:13Josh Clark?

  Uh huh.

• 2:13Speaker 02

  And in those trainings, you get shown video examples of various forms of harassment. And they are the best, most fun things to watch ever.

• 2:24Josh Clark?

  They're pretty overt.

• 2:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, I could watch those all day long.

• 2:28Josh Clark?

  I was wondering how much that production company made from that.

• 2:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:32Josh Clark?

  You know, they did about like five little vignettes. They, I'm sure they paid the actors like literal peanuts.

• 2:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were bad actors.

• 2:40Josh Clark?

  They were like, kid, there's the peanut bucket over there. You can pay yourself.

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, the one that really got me was the, actually, they were all really funny. But the one with the old guy in the, in the factory loading boxes, like a shipping warehouse. And they were giving the old man a hard time about everything.

• 2:57Josh Clark?

  Cause he was old?

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, cause he was old and, you know, he, they were giving him a hard time because he'd, he was out of work for a while and they'd had to cover for him.

• 3:05Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  The old man, and he had the back brace on, did you notice that? And he just, the look on his face, he just kept getting a little more like pouty the whole time.

• 3:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:14Speaker 02

  I was like, dude.

• 3:15Josh Clark?

  That's good acting.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  Stick up for yourself. Tell these young kids, you know, what to do.

• 3:20Josh Clark?

  The back brace prevents him from it.

• 3:22Speaker 02

  Anyway, I just had to bring that up because I just think that stuff is so funny. And what's funny is people really do some of that stuff that you're like, what?

• 3:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 02

  There's some creeps out there.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:32Speaker 02

  Um, that was a really weird setup for Jim Henson. Cause he's the least harassy guy he was probably ever.

• 3:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he certainly comes across that way.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  He's a genuinely good dude. It's not one of these stories you hear about like, uh, maybe some of your favorite children's books writers or cartoonists or something, maybe it were kind of bad people.

• 3:54Josh Clark?

  No, apparently not at all.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:57Josh Clark?

  Um, he was, not only, so there's a lot of quotes in this article. John, no, I thought John Strickland wrote it. It turns out that's not the case. I'm surprised.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:08Josh Clark?

  Um, cause he's friends with, or down with at least, uh, one of Jim Henson's kids.

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  Who I believe lives here in Atlanta.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 4:16Josh Clark?

  And, but in this article, it's one of those things where everybody who compliments Jim Henson, who worked with him, they, they go to the trouble of complimenting him in a way that's not just. Like, oh, he was such a great guy.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:32Josh Clark?

  They all back up just a little bit because they're cognizant that that doesn't get it across.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:39Josh Clark?

  And they want you to understand that they're talking about more than just the great guy like,

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Right.

• 4:45Josh Clark?

  Oh, he's dead and I'm not gonna speak ill of the dead and he was a great guy and that's a really thoughtless, polite, inoffensive thing to say.

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 4:53Josh Clark?

  So, like Frank Oz said something like, he was a, he was a, a, a great guy, but at the same time, you know, he was a human, but he was still a really great guy.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  Right.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  So like what you're thinking of as a great guy, get rid of that and actually replace it with a genuine, human, great guy.

• 5:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, because as a filmmaker, he's a puppeteer, obviously, but he was a filmmaker first and foremost, which a lot of people kind of forget about.

• 5:18Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Speaker 02

  Um.

• 5:19Josh Clark?

  Did, did you watch any of these?

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. Uh, that's a tough, tough job, super stressful. And you and I have seen, it can make good guys and good ladies be real jerks.

• 5:31Josh Clark?

  And yell.

• 5:32Speaker 02

  Under stressful situations, you know, it's, it's, it's a tough thing. There's a lot of money on the line each day and, uh.

• 5:39Josh Clark?

  It's like, everybody relax, it's just millions of dollars.

• 5:42Speaker 02

  But Frank Oz, I think that's the point he was making, like even when he would get frustrated and stressed like that, it was, he was still a good guy behind it all.

• 5:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and I read a, I read an, I guess it was a book review of a biography about him that, that showed that it was all, somebody said it was all just play to him.

• 6:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:01Josh Clark?

  Like work was play.

• 6:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:02Josh Clark?

  Even though he worked really hard.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 6:05Josh Clark?

  He was able to commit himself like that to his work because to him, he was having the time of his life.

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:14Josh Clark?

  All the time. And apparently like there was just, there was no line between work and play, which now that we've seen that sensitivity training.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Right.

• 6:21Josh Clark?

  Could have gotten him in a lot of big, you know, a lot of trouble. But he, um, he, he just enjoyed the life that he had from what I understand. Loved cars.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:29Josh Clark?

  He had like a Lotus that was the same color as Kermit the Frog.

• 6:32Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:33Josh Clark?

  Um, he had a Rolls Royce early on from his work.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:40Josh Clark?

  Let's talk about, let's talk about the guy.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, if you haven't, I just need to go ahead and say if you haven't listened to the episode on The Muppets. This is a, what I consider just a more in-depth part two on the man himself.

• 6:53Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  But that's one of our favorite all-time episodes, and from feedback, one of the great all-time fan episodes.

• 7:00Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it was a great episode.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was just a lot of fun, and so I hope this augments that one. I hope we do it justice.

• 7:05Josh Clark?

  So, that's actually one of the reasons why we can do this episode, because we already did a Muppets episode.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  And they tweeted about us, do you remember? The Henson Company did.

• 7:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they did.

• 7:16Speaker 02

  Which was.

• 7:17Josh Clark?

  They approved. It got their actual approval.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 7:20Josh Clark?

  Man, that was something. The, The Muppets episode is its own thing. It's about Muppets. This is about Jim Henson, and it's appropriate that we're doing this because he was more than just The Muppets, even though everybody pegs him with The Muppets and like, that is a huge thing. He was more than that. And like you said, he was a filmmaker, but originally started out as a puppeteer, but kind of a reluctant one.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was born in 1936, September 24th. James Maury Henson, M-A-U-R-Y, in Mississippi. And his grandmother, maternal grandmother, was a painter and a quilter and a needleworker, and apparently was a big inspiration to him just to seek out the creative in life.

• 8:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:05Speaker 02

  Which is pretty great.

• 8:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah. And one of the, one of the things he got into, well, he was originally of kind of a fan of ventriloquism a little bit. But he, he said later on in life that he was never, he was never like obsessed with puppets or anything like that, like you would have expected him to be. And as he went to college, I think in Maryland, he, he got into, he started out as a studio artist. That's what he was studying.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, he loved television above all else.

• 8:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 8:36Speaker 02

  From the time he was a little kid. He was just transfixed by the tube.

• 8:40Josh Clark?

  He almost kind of made himself destined to be on television by being obsessed with it.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:46Josh Clark?

  But he kind of stumbled into puppetry.

• 8:50Josh Clark?

  In college and he started out as a studio art major and ended up graduating with a home ec. Degree because home ec was the only degree that offered puppet making courses.

• 9:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, he majored or he took a puppetry course at first and then a bunch of textiles and crafts. Courses which is a great way to, you know, start building and making your own puppets.

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  Right, so but he graduated with a home ec. Degree. But by the time he graduated, he was already extremely successful that the Rolls Royce that I mentioned. He bought in time to drive to his college graduation.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:30Josh Clark?

  Because he'd already created successful shows in his town.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think he was in high school, he was on the local TV station doing little guest spots. And then in 1955, the show Salmon Friends debuted and that, you know, he also did work on the side. Making money with, I think he did some of the like really cool concert posters of the day.

• 9:54Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Really colorful, colorful silk screen posters and Salmon Friends did really well.

• 10:01Speaker 02

  But he still wasn't quite sure, like, I still don't know if I want to, you know, I'm a filmmaker. I did these short films, really sort of weird, abstract, short films, live action.

• 10:10Josh Clark?

  Experimental.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Totally experimental.

• 10:13Josh Clark?

  Did you see the time piece?

• 10:14Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:15Josh Clark?

  That one was pretty cool.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  It was great in its way.

• 10:18Josh Clark?

  And did you see the cube?

• 10:20Speaker 02

  I watched parts of the cube.

• 10:22Josh Clark?

  That was, did you see the end?

• 10:23Speaker 02

  No.

• 10:24Josh Clark?

  Oh, you gotta see the end. I skipped the middle because I was like, okay, I get where you're going with this.

• 10:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, we should just set it up real quick. The cube was a show on NBC. It was a one hour show.

• 10:35Josh Clark?

  From 1969.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  The name of the show NBC did was called Experiment in Television.

• 10:42Josh Clark?

  Appropriately.

• 10:42Speaker 02

  It was a different thing each week and he had one week's installment called The Cube, which was a guy just stuck in a white room. But other people could come in and out of the room, but he could not, right?

• 10:52Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 10:53Josh Clark?

  And he starts to go kind of crazy and it has the look and feel of a color TV ad. Like lots of overacting and like Carol Burnett-esque characters and stuff like that.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:07Josh Clark?

  The sentiment behind it and like the, everything behind it is really neat and it really gives you a good.

• 11:16Josh Clark?

  An eye opening example of like what Jim Henson was capable of, but also like what he was into. Because, you know, when you think of him, you think of Muppets and Sesame Street in particular.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Sure, and these are weird abstract art films. Not unlike, you know, you watch like a Jim Morrison art film from film school. And it's kind of the same style, you know, that was what was going on back then.

• 11:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  And he actually got nominated for an Academy Award for Timepiece.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  I think Jim Henson, Jim Henson had Jim Morrison beat by a mile as far as experimental films went.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll agree with you there.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  So like I said, he wasn't quite convinced that puppetry was his future because he was a filmmaker and he was like puppets are still kind of kid's stuff. But post-college, he did the old tour of Europe. And in Europe, puppeteering is a whole different business. It was a lot more serious. And a lot more, I guess.

• 12:13Josh Clark?

  It was treated as art.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And he said, you know what, I am going to give this a shot. Came back to the US, married Jane, and even though he and Jane separated, they never divorced.

• 12:26Josh Clark?

  Oh, really? I thought they did.

• 12:27Speaker 02

  No, they never fulfilled the divorce. They just stayed separated.

• 12:31Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 12:32Speaker 02

  And then he started making TV commercials. And formed his own company in 1963 with, I don't know if he formed it with Frank Oz, but he hired Frank Oz and Jerry Jewell. Who ended up being obviously legendary puppeteers.

• 12:46Josh Clark?

  And lifelong collaborators of his.

• 12:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:48Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but he started out making a, basically a puppet based commercial ad agency in New York.

• 12:56Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 12:56Josh Clark?

  In 1963.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they weren't making funny commercials back then, so he was really pretty revolutionary at the time.

• 13:03Josh Clark?

  And they, I mean, they did pretty well for themselves and one of the smartest moves he made early on was all of his contracts said that he retained the rights to any of the creations he made for these companies.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:15Josh Clark?

  So he was creating what, some of the things that would later become famous Muppets, like the Cookie Monster was originally made for a chip maker. It was this puppet that couldn't get enough of these chips.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, he was the wheel stealer and he stole cheese wheels.

• 13:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah, okay, that's what it was.

• 13:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:33Josh Clark?

  And he ended up being the Cookie Monster and the reason he ended up being the Cookie Monster is because Jim Henson retained the rights to that creation.

• 13:40Speaker 02

  That was, he was a very savvy business guy, too.

• 13:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he was, he was using somebody else's dime, these, these advertisers.

• 13:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:48Josh Clark?

  Like budgets to kind of hash out and form and make his Muppets.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, Rolf the Dog started out on Purina commercials and was later a sidekick on The Jimmy Dean Show in 1963.

• 14:02Josh Clark?

  Which I remember that from the Muppets episode. Rolf was the first big Muppet. And it's, he's such like a bit character now.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:10Josh Clark?

  That, you know, it's just mind boggling to think he was the one that started it all, even before Kermit, before Big Bird. It was Rolf.

• 14:17Speaker 02

  Kermit kind of stole the show, I think.

• 14:19Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and we'll talk a little more about Kermit and where he came from right after this.

• 14:38Josh Clark?

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• 17:01Speaker 02

  All right, so it's 1969 and a very, very big thing happens to Jim Henson. He was invited to be on the pilot of a show created by the Children's Television Workshop called Sesame Street. He did not create it. Some people think he did. But he did make his mark by creating most of the iconic characters. And if you were a fan of the old Sesame Streets back then, not all, but many of those little short films, the little claymation ones or the live-action ones, he directed those as well.

• 17:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  Which is pretty cool. I never knew that.

• 17:38Josh Clark?

  I think I knew that.

• 17:40Speaker 02

  Did you?

• 17:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he was our Russ Vic. No, he was their Russ Vic.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  Russ Vic is ours.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 17:47Josh Clark?

  So Chuck, the whole thing that changed everything for him was Sesame Street.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:55Josh Clark?

  He wasn't a creator of Sesame Street. They hired him on.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:59Josh Clark?

  And they actually kind of won him over. Because remember, one of the things that Jim Henson always struggled with his whole career was he wanted to...

• 18:09Josh Clark?

  Explore places that puppets had never really gone to.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Right.

• 18:15Josh Clark?

  In themes that they hadn't gone to, at least not in the modern age.

• 18:18Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 18:19Josh Clark?

  But he was fighting against them not being taken seriously.

• 18:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, it wasn't like he was anti-puppet by any means. He was, or anti-kids. Because one of the big reasons he signed on with Children's Television Workshop was their goal to educate kids.

• 18:34Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:34Speaker 02

  Meant a lot to him. But like you said, I think to merge those worlds successfully was a big part of his goal.

• 18:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:42Speaker 02

  And struggle for a little while.

• 18:44Josh Clark?

  Russ Vick, by the way, made the little interstitial things for the Stuff You Should Know Television show.

• 18:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, the animations.

• 18:50Josh Clark?

  Which is why I reference him.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:52Josh Clark?

  So the Children's Television Workshop, which is now called the Sesame Workshop.

• 18:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:57Josh Clark?

  From what I understand, they won him over big time. He makes all of these characters from like Big Bird. And I think Kermit came before Sesame Street. And he started out, and I think we talked about this in the Muppet episode too, he started out looking really weird.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a lizard almost.

• 19:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah, not cool at all, like really kind of freaky.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  Which is something that I, now that I know a little more about Jim Henson, I think maybe he might have even been going for.

• 19:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:22Josh Clark?

  But one of the things that Sesame Street allowed him to do was to really kind of explore something that he'd long been obsessed with, which was television? And where it converged with puppets, which was all new territory. And Jim Henson was at the bleeding edge of it.

• 19:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 19:43Josh Clark?

  Because if you think about it, when you go to a puppet show live, you know, you're, you're looking at what's essentially a mechanism for hiding the human. And there's just a little area that the puppet can move around in.

• 19:57Speaker 02

  A little tiny fake stage.

• 19:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah. So Jim Henson stepped back and said, okay, the television is that little tiny area that the puppet can stay, can move around in.

• 20:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:08Josh Clark?

  But it also opens up the whole world for a puppet because you're using camera angles and there's editing and it's not in person.

• 20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, just frame out the people.

• 20:17Josh Clark?

  So, and again, we talked about this in the Muppet episode, he created something called platforming up.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:22Josh Clark?

  To where the, the puppeteers no longer had to like crouch down and in.

• 20:29Josh Clark?

  To maneuver the puppets.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz he was a tall guy.

• 20:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah, tall and lanky. Man, he was skinny.

• 20:35Speaker 02

  Oh, those running shots in Timepiece.

• 20:36Josh Clark?

  Exactly.

• 20:37Speaker 02

  Cuz he was in it. They were hysterical.

• 20:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and he weighs about seventy pounds somehow.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  His big lanky legs.

• 20:42Josh Clark?

  But, um, so yeah, the performers could stand up, which was a huge weight off.

• 20:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  But at the same time, because you're working with cameras and stuff like that, and they have the whole universe to move around in, and Jim Henson wanted them to move around as much as possible.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:57Josh Clark?

  It also put them in some weird positions.

• 21:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, if you ever, uh, well, some people might think it's like kinda ruining the thing, but I think it's really neat. If you, if you just look up on Google Images, Muppets, Muppet Show behind the scenes pictures.

• 21:11Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  And it'll show the, the stage sets, you know, like, uh, six feet off the ground.

• 21:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:17Speaker 02

  And all the people standing beneath. Um, I think it's awesome to look at, but some people don't like, you know, they wanna keep that illusion alive.

• 21:24Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:25Speaker 02

  So depending on what kinda person you are, either seek that out or don't.

• 21:28Josh Clark?

  And we gave that warning in the Muppets episode, too.

• 21:30Speaker 02

  Did we?

• 21:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think they're really cool pictures.

• 21:33Josh Clark?

  I agree.

• 21:33Speaker 02

  Cuz, you know, a lot of times they're looking at, uh, they're looking at video monitors, um, standing there, contorted, using both hands.

• 21:42Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  Um, like, uh, the way puppeteers work together, to me, is, is just a miracle. Because they're acting as the puppets, but they're moving, still moving among one another as humans.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Underneath, which can be really complicated. We, in fact, we know some really, really talented puppeteers here in Atlanta.

• 22:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, the Center for Puppetry Arts is, I think, the nation's largest puppet, puppeteer organization.

• 22:09Speaker 02

  Yep, and that is where we had our TV show debut party, premiere party.

• 22:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 02

  Like, it was a really cool experience. Like, Emmet Otter and the gang are right there on display. I think the Henson and Kermit cut the ribbon for the grand opening.

• 22:22Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Uh, back when it opened, and, um... Ended up donating like 500 puppets and Muppets.

• 22:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 22:30Speaker 02

  To the Center for Puppetry Arts. So if you ever visit Atlanta, people always email us and say, what should we do? I highly recommend going and checking out the Center for Puppetry Arts.

• 22:37Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because they have a museum with, like you said, Emmet Otter.

• 22:40Speaker 02

  Oh, man, all sorts of cool stuff.

• 22:42Josh Clark?

  Like a full-size, life-size Skeksis.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:45Josh Clark?

  Behind glass, scary, as you can imagine.

• 22:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I was talking about Raymond Carr, our friend, who, I hate to keep bringing up the TV show, but it all kind of overlaps. He was the production designer for Stuff You Should Know on Science Channel.

• 22:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 02

  And he and his friends, Brandon and the gang, are amazing puppeteers. And they're doing some really, really leading-edge, like, cool stuff here in Atlanta.

• 23:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Like, these giant puppets operated, like, you know, 15-foot-tall puppets operated by like six and eight people. Have you ever seen the spaceman that they do?

• 23:16Josh Clark?

  No.

• 23:16Speaker 02

  Oh, man, it's unbelievable. It's really cool. It's like, I don't know how tall he is. He seems like he's 20 feet tall. And they, you know, do these at parades and stuff, and it's just really, really cool stuff.

• 23:25Josh Clark?

  That's awesome.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah. But Henson is a huge inspiration to them, obviously.

• 23:29Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah. I think anybody who works even remotely in puppets has got to be inspired by Jim Henson.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  He's the man.

• 23:35Josh Clark?

  One of the other things that he came up with was, that was based on putting Muppets or puppets on TV, was using softer materials.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:46Josh Clark?

  Everything else was like, up to that point, stiff wood, marionettes, ventriloquist dummies, that kind of stuff.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:53Josh Clark?

  He used like foam, and it allowed the puppets themselves to have more expressive faces, which is great for a close-up on TV.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 24:04Josh Clark?

  And it also, I mean, now, looking back, you just are like, well, yeah, of course, it's what puppets do. That's what...

• 24:11Speaker 02

  I know.

• 24:12Josh Clark?

  But that was Jim Henson that came up with that.

• 24:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:15Josh Clark?

  And it changed everything, because it took something like, I mean, imagine Howdy Doody. It was like, yeah, it's cool, you know, it's Howdy Doody or whatever.

• 24:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:23Josh Clark?

  Whether close-up or far away, he looked exactly the same. He was like a woodhead with like a moving lower jaw.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:29Josh Clark?

  And, you know, he gave you nightmares.

• 24:31Speaker 02

  [laughing]

• 24:32Josh Clark?

  With Kermit the Frog or something like that, the fact that he could have different expressions and react differently, and his emotions could be shown on his face, that made him that much more popular, that much more approachable.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  To people who were into him.

• 24:48Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 24:48Josh Clark?

  Which is everybody.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, show me someone who doesn't like Muppets in any form. I get it if you don't like it anymore, maybe, but your heart is cold and dead inside. For a while, and this is something I don't think I knew, he dabbled on Saturday Night Live in season one. Lorne Michaels got him a deal to perform some sketches. And ultimately, it wasn't a huge success, and it wasn't the greatest marriage. But it was pretty cool that he was seeking out, you know, different avenues to get those puppets on television.

• 25:22Josh Clark?

  It was.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  And his big break came in 1975. He had a, he wanted to make The Muppet Show. And he had a lot of trouble in the US still.

• 25:32Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Even though he had his various successes on commercials and stuff. So he had to go to London, and a TV producer named Lord Lou Grade gave him a deal with Grade's ATV Studios. And said, you know what, you can make your show. And The Muppet Show was born.

• 25:49Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah?

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Bada bing bada boom.

• 25:50Josh Clark?

  That was it.

• 25:51Speaker 02

  That was it.

• 25:52Josh Clark?

  And you can really see Jim Henson's love of variety shows and just kind of, well, just the stage in The Muppet Show. Because if you think about it, it's set, the whole thing's set backstage at a variety show.

• 26:08Speaker 02

  Such a great idea, when you look back at it. Like, we take it for granted a little bit, because we were kids. But now, as an adult, it's like, what a perfect way to frame this world. Is it's basically like 30 Rock. Or 30 Rock was The Muppet Show.

• 26:22Josh Clark?

  Right. Well, The Muppet Show started all that.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:25Josh Clark?

  I don't know if Carol Burnett was before The Muppet Show.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was before.

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  Was it?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:31Josh Clark?

  So she did a lot of backstage stuff, didn't she? I wonder who started that?

• 26:36Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, hers was more sketch.

• 26:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, but some of it was like backstage.

• 26:40Speaker 02

  Was it?

• 26:41Josh Clark?

  I believe so.

• 26:42Speaker 02

  No, I don't remember that.

• 26:43Josh Clark?

  Unless I'm hallucinating right now.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  They need to have a good old-fashioned variety show again.

• 26:49Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they don't have those anymore.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Those were big back in the day, you know? Like, a host comes out, and then there's sketches and singing and...

• 26:56Josh Clark?

  Remember our cabaret? No, it wasn't cabaret. What was it, the episode we did?

• 27:01Speaker 02

  Oh, uh, Burlesque?

• 27:02Josh Clark?

  Burlesque.

• 27:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:03Josh Clark?

  Yeah, how that started out in Vaudeville and Burlesque had, that's where stand-up comedy came from. That was an interesting episode.

• 27:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I miss those variety shows, though, like the Kenny Rogers and Dolly Parton and, uh,

• 27:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  Cale Burnett, all the, the Vandrell sisters.

• 27:18Josh Clark?

  Although Kenny and Dolly could just sit on a couch and stare at the camera for an hour and I'd watch that.

• 27:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:24Josh Clark?

  They are-

• 27:24Speaker 02

  They're the best.

• 27:25Josh Clark?

  Great entertainers.

• 27:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:27Josh Clark?

  Love those two.

• 27:28Speaker 02

  Um, alright, so where are we in our timeline?

• 27:32Josh Clark?

  Well Chuck, The Muppet Show has just hit.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Oh, that's right.

• 27:35Josh Clark?

  Things are going pretty well. They have been going pretty well already for Henson. Apparently in 1970, Rubber Ducky hit number 16 on the Billboard charts. And for those who don't know, uh, Ernie-

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 27:49Josh Clark?

  -is voiced by Jim Henson. So Jim Henson sang a song, Rubber Ducky, that made it to number 16 on the Billboard charts. And that was 1970, a year after The Cube, before The Muppet Show even happened.

• 28:02Speaker 02

  Before Sesame Street even, right?

• 28:04Josh Clark?

  No, Sesame Street was 69, I think.

• 28:06Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, yeah.

• 28:06Josh Clark?

  Same year as The Cube.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Wow, that's crazy to think-

• 28:09Josh Clark?

  That's the new touchstone for his life, The Cube.

• 28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, PC and BC. Um, so The Muppet Show was a, was a huge hit. It won, uh, you know, a lot of awards. It garnered critical praise and won the hearts of children all over the world.

• 28:24Josh Clark?

  Uh, but it was also for adults, too.

• 28:27Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 28:27Josh Clark?

  I think that's why he was able to pull it off in Great Britain, 'cause they have better senses of humor.

• 28:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, and speaking of adults, uh, he got into some more serious themes with his next great show, Fraggle Rock.

• 28:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 02

  In 1983.

• 28:42Josh Clark?

  I never saw a second of that show.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Oh, man, really?

• 28:45Josh Clark?

  Wasn't it on HBO?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was one of the first HBO original series.

• 28:48Josh Clark?

  We either had Showtime or we didn't have HBO.

• 28:50Speaker 02

  To know anything. Uh, it was awesome. Fraggle Rock was great and, uh, the idea there is you had the- The Fraggle Gang, and then you had, well, you had three different groups. You had the home of Doc, who was an inventor, and his dog Sprocket. You had the Fraggles, who shared caves underground of Fraggle Rock with their neighbors, the Doozers and the Gorgs, and these gigantic creatures that are in Gorg's garden. And the whole point of that show was to show how different types of people can live together and work together in peace.

• 29:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  It was really cool. Didn't know it at the time, when I was, you know, 12 years old, but what I was learning about was acceptance. And he won three Cable ACE Awards, five international Emmys, and Fraggle Rock was one of the first big hits for HBO, as far as TV goes.

• 29:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  Great, great show. Lots of great songs that, I mean, he had every kind of, like, he had reggae, rock, country, bluegrass.

• 29:50Josh Clark?

  Really?

• 29:51Speaker 02

  He was all over the map with the music on Fraggle Rock.

• 29:53Josh Clark?

  And he, I mean, he wrote a lot of songs, too. I think he wrote Rubber Ducky. I'm sure he wrote a lot of the stuff on Fraggle Rock. It was just yet another thing he did was write music.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  Renaissance man.

• 30:03Josh Clark?

  The other show that he came out with in the 80s, in the mid 80s, that I was big time into was Muppet Babies.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  I never saw one second of that.

• 30:12Josh Clark?

  And I loved that show.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're just enough apart in age where like, certain things I saw, you I was, you were too young for, and then certain things I was too old for.

• 30:21Josh Clark?

  You know what's weird, though? I'm just gonna say this. So Yumi and I are the same age.

• 30:25Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 30:26Josh Clark?

  Her sister is like five years younger than us.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 30:29Josh Clark?

  And I used to love Muppet Babies.

• 30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:32Josh Clark?

  Yumi's sister used to watch Muppet Babies. So Yumi was like, why were you watching Muppet Babies if my younger sister was watching Muppet Babies?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  And Yumi didn't watch Muppet Babies?

• 30:41Josh Clark?

  No, she watched like Donahue or something like that. I watched Muppet Babies. I'm not ashamed anymore, to say it.

• 30:47Speaker 02

  Well, when was that? 1984? I was 13. So yeah, I was just, I was starting to be a teenager. Muppet Babies didn't appeal.

• 30:52Josh Clark?

  I think it was on for like four or five seasons. So maybe I was watching it at the beginning of the series.

• 30:57Speaker 02

  No, that makes sense.

• 30:58Josh Clark?

  And Mika was watching it. That's what I've been telling Yumi.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  In 84, you would have been, what?

• 31:02Josh Clark?

  Eight.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. That's a perfect age for Muppet Babies.

• 31:05Josh Clark?

  So I think, I think we just saw it on different ends of the series, is what it was.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Is that what it is?

• 31:10Josh Clark?

  But have you ever heard of Ron Funches?

• 31:13Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, the comedian?

• 31:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:14Josh Clark?

  He has a little bit about Muppet Babies. It's pretty hilarious.

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  He's awesome.

• 31:19Josh Clark?

  Love that guy.

• 31:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:20Josh Clark?

  We saw him live. He's just a beautiful human being.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Muppet Babies was cartoon though, right?

• 31:27Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  It was not live puppets, correct?

• 31:29Josh Clark?

  No, it was cartoon.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 31:31Josh Clark?

  It was so cute.

• 31:33Speaker 02

  Were they just the regular Muppets as babies?

• 31:36Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 31:36Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I'll have to watch that sometime.

• 31:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and they like used their imagination and like Gonzo had a thing for Indiana Jones. So he was frequently like exploring caves and like swinging on vines with a Indiana Jones fedora on and that kind of stuff.

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Well, see, I would probably enjoy that now.

• 31:53Josh Clark?

  You would?

• 31:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:54Josh Clark?

  Definitely.

• 31:55Speaker 02

  All right, I'm gonna go get Muppet Babies.

• 31:58Josh Clark?

  Chuck, he did even more TV that we'll talk about in a second, okay?

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:17Josh Clark?

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• 32:35Speaker 02

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• 32:50Josh Clark?

  Yeah, plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. They work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen, so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag.

• 33:02Speaker 02

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• 33:24Josh Clark?

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• 33:37Speaker 02

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• 33:51Josh Clark?

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• 34:20Speaker 02

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• 34:33Josh Clark?

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• 34:44Speaker 02

  Oh?

• 34:45Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:46Speaker 02

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• 34:57Josh Clark?

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• 35:07Speaker 02

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• 35:41Josh Clark?

  Okay, and we're back. And we're still in the 80s.

• 35:44Speaker 02

  That's right, and you were talking about other TV. As we said, the man loved television and filmmaking. And so he got away from The Muppets and Puppets every now and then. Collaborated with Raymond Scott, who was an electronica pioneer, actually, on shorts called Ripples and Wheels That Go. And he did that for the Montreal Expo in 67.

• 36:06Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  And I know we're jumping around in time, but we're just trying to paint the full picture here, not going necessarily in order. And then he also did this cool thing called The Floating Face, which was a sketch that was on The Tonight Show and The Mike Douglas Show in the 60s. Which, did you see any of that?

• 36:21Josh Clark?

  A little bit.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  It was a little weird. It was like two eyes and a mouth. And there were like these invisible wires and background images. And it was definitely a little more on that surreal tip.

• 36:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  The Henson surreal tip.

• 36:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Not kid-oriented necessarily. But he got into the movies with The Muppet Movie, which was a big hit.

• 36:41Josh Clark?

  It's so good.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  It still holds up, man. It's still so great.

• 36:44Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about that movie and some of the cool facts from it, go, again, listen to the Muppet episode.

• 36:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:51Josh Clark?

  As a matter of fact, pause this. Go listen to the Muppet episode and then come back to this one.

• 36:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:57Josh Clark?

  It'll probably enhance your experience.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 37:00Josh Clark?

  Or listen to them both at the same time.

• 37:02Speaker 02

  But he followed The Muppet. In 1982, he made The Dark Crystal.

• 37:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 37:07Speaker 02

  Which was puppets. And it was based on some drawings by fantasy artist Brian Fraude. And there were no humans, it was all puppets. And I don't think it holds up as well, but it still looks pretty good.

• 37:21Josh Clark?

  Well, yeah. I think it actually is probably better received now than it was originally.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:28Josh Clark?

  I think critics appreciated it, but it didn't do so well at the box office. But now it's become like

• 37:33Speaker 02

  It did okay.

• 37:34Josh Clark?

  A cult classic, for sure.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:36Josh Clark?

  And one of the reasons why it didn't do that well at the box office is because audiences didn't quite know what to make of it. They heard Frank Oz, who co-directed it.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Right.

• 37:47Josh Clark?

  Jim Henson, and puppets. And I think they weren't expecting The Muppet Movie. This is 1982. And they, they, they got the dark crystal instead, which is really dark. The lot of the, like, the theme is, you know, good versus evil and it's, the evil in it is really, really evil.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:05Josh Clark?

  And the stuff that happens to some of the puppets is, including really cute puppets.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:11Josh Clark?

  Is really horrifying. And I read this awesome quote by Frank Oz and basically he says, like, Jim thought it was okay to scare kids. As a matter of fact, he thought it wasn't healthy for kids to never be scared.

• 38:26Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 38:27Josh Clark?

  He purposefully was trying to scare kids and he, he, he wanted to take the tradition back to like grim fairy tales, which were very, very dark and graphic.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  That's a good point.

• 38:37Josh Clark?

  That's what he was going for with the dark crystal.

• 38:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it was ahead of its time for sure.

• 38:42Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:42Speaker 02

  If you look at some of these, like, some of the CGI movies today, I think that dark crystal was a precursor to a lot of those.

• 38:49Josh Clark?

  Correct.

• 38:50Speaker 02

  Uh, then he went on to make the movie La- uh, The Labyrinth.

• 38:53Josh Clark?

  With Bowie, right?

• 38:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, David Bowie and a very young Jennifer Connelly. No, that was a legend.

• 38:59Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Um, good movie. Uh, but this was, um, written by Terry Jones of Monty Python fame and then rewritten a bunch by a bunch of other people, including executive producer George Lucas.

• 39:10Josh Clark?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:11Speaker 02

  Um, Labyrinth was okay, not bad. Again, not a huge hit, uh, for Henson though, as far as movies go. But he was still out there exploring these cool fantastical worlds and fantasy worlds.

• 39:22Josh Clark?

  And he still had a lot of cred, um, even in the late eighties. Uh, if you think about it, his heyday was the late seventies, early eighties with The Muppet Show, The Muppet Movies. And then after that, it was like, yeah, I'll try this with Jim Henson. I'll try this with Jim Henson.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:39Josh Clark?

  Um, and even, even still, he had like a, he was on a pretty great streak. And at the end of the eighties, he had two TV shows on, The Jim Henson Hour.

• 39:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:50Josh Clark?

  And Storyteller, The Storyteller.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, The Jim Henson Hour, he was always pushing the boundaries. The Storyteller, looking back now, or I'm sorry, Jim Henson Hour, looking back was really different from what you were getting at the time, cause it was, it was all over the map. You had certain shows that were like, you know, four or five sketches in one and then

• 40:08Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 40:08Speaker 02

  three of the episodes were full on one hour little mini-movies.

• 40:12Josh Clark?

  Oh, really?

• 40:13Speaker 02

  From, yeah, from beginning to end.

• 40:14Josh Clark?

  It's like Louie.

• 40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a good point, actually. Um, one of the little mini-movies was called Dog City, which was great. It was narrated by Rolf and it was, I remember watching this. It was like a film noir gangster thing with puppet dogs.

• 40:30Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Uh, and the main character, Ace Yu, was, uh, the guy who did Elmo, Kevin Clash, did, uh, the character of Ace Yu. And that was fantastic. I think Dog City went on to be a TV show in its own right, too.

• 40:43Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  For a little while. But it was really good. I mean, it's total like gangster crime film noir, but it's, you know, Rolf the dog and the gang.

• 40:51Josh Clark?

  I love Rolf.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  It was really cool.

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  Um, the storyteller I hadn't seen before, I was, I guess, aware of, but I don't know why I wasn't watching it, because it would have been like right there for me.

• 41:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:01Josh Clark?

  Because I would have been 12 in 1988. But I watched one today and it was really good. It's like human, um, puppet interaction.

• 41:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:09Josh Clark?

  Which is, and it's just seamless. Like, there's, one of the things from studying this that I've realized is like, we take for granted and expect our puppet-human interactions to be so seamless that we don't even realize that we're looking at puppets right then. And the reason why we expect that is because of Jim Henson and the people he worked with and, and inspired to, to work so hard at creating that illusion.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, the illusion that these are living, breathing things. Uh, he would go, I remember Kermit as guest on talk shows.

• 41:44Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  He wouldn't go out as Jim Henson. He would go out as, I mean, he did those appearances as well, but Kermit the Frog would be a guest on The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.

• 41:52Josh Clark?

  Or host.

• 41:53Speaker 02

  Or host The Tonight, guest host The Tonight Show.

• 41:55Josh Clark?

  And Larry King.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it, it was all a part of this, um, uh, goal of making these real people.

• 42:03Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Or real living things, not people.

• 42:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, apparently somebody who was working with, uh, Jim Henson was, I guess, a director of The Muppet Show, would be giving Jim notes on Kermit and Jim would just respond, like, let Kermit respond.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  That would freak me out.

• 42:19Josh Clark?

  And the director said, eventually, you're just sitting there, you turn and you address Kermit. Like, he'd just force you into like interacting with the puppet, even like during a, a notes session.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, and probably without feeling silly or stupid or anything.

• 42:32Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 42:33Speaker 02

  You know, it probably seemed like a totally normal thing to do.

• 42:35Josh Clark?

  Eventually, once he forced you to do it.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Uh, he also pioneered the, uh, Henson Performance Control System and won an Academy Award for that, and that was a, a- Remote control system that helped puppeteers out. So he was always pushing technical, visual, stylistic, thematic boundaries. As far as he could. And they didn't always work, you know, the movies weren't, aside from the Muppet Movie, they weren't the biggest hits. The TV show, a couple, you know, neither one of those lasted very long. But I think he was, he was just intent on doing something different.

• 43:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah. He, and he did too. And he died in 1990 of a staph infection. Organ failure brought on by a staph infection. Did you know that?

• 43:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think pneumonia had something to do with it too, didn't it?

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  Not that I saw.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 43:29Josh Clark?

  I saw organ failure caused by a Group A strep infection. I'm sorry. Not staph.

• 43:35Speaker 02

  Very sad. And if you're ever in the mood for a good cry, watch the Jim Henson Memorial where Big Bird sings, "It's Not Easy Being Green."

• 43:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Tough stuff, people. His children, his legacy lives on through, in 1993, Jane, his wife, founded the Jim Henson Legacy to preserve his contributions, share them with the public. And like I said, he donated 500 puppets to the Center of Puppetry Arts. And there is also the Jim Henson Memorial and Muppet Museum. And traveling exhibits and his sons and daughters help run his foundation and some of them are puppeteers themselves and run the company. The company has changed hands a lot. I have sort of the boring history. When he was still alive, he was gonna sell it to Disney for 150 million.

• 44:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, cuz apparently he believed in Disney's commitment to characters. So he thought like that would be a good place for the Muppets to live.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Disney went, "Wow." He bought it. But he did not get that deal finished. But it turns out 150 million was chump change because in 2000, his children sold the entire company, including the Sesame Street characters, to a German media company for 680 million. And then I believe that company fell in hard times and they bought it back in 2003 for 84 million.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Isn't that crazy?

• 45:05Josh Clark?

  Wow, the Henson children are smart.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  And in between all that, there are various exchanges of percentages of stakes with other companies and rights of certain characters. It's a little dull to go over all of that, but needless to say, they made up pretty well. And eventually, Disney now does, they do own all the Muppet Studio.

• 45:25Josh Clark?

  They own the Muppets. Apparently, the Henson Company sold the rights to the Sesame Street characters to Sesame Street, which is pretty cool.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:33Josh Clark?

  And the Jim Henson Creature Shop still builds the Sesame Street puppets and Muppets.

• 45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it says they sold the rights to the Muppets and Bear and the Big Blue House characters, which I'm not familiar with that one.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  Nor am I.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  But Disney wanted, I guess, that's sort of the player to be named later that's included in the baseball trade.

• 45:52Josh Clark?

  Right. Man, I'm proud of the Henson kids.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're great. And I hope we get tweeted about this one from them. They seem, they seem pretty great, Brian and Cheryl and the gang. They seem like they're doing right by the dad. And there's other siblings, too, and I think they're all involved.

• 46:09Josh Clark?

  Yep.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  Super involved. And sadly, Jane passed away, I think, in 2013.

• 46:14Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 46:15Speaker 02

  At the age of 78. I would have loved to have seen what kind of work he did later in his life.

• 46:20Josh Clark?

  Oh, yeah, the fact that he died in 1990, he still had, like, a couple of TV shows going.

• 46:25Speaker 02

  He's 53 years old.

• 46:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, he had a lot of work left in him. If you want to know more about Jim Henson, go listen to our Muppets episode. And while you're looking that up, you can also search Jim Henson on the search bar at HowStuffWorks.com, and it'll bring up this great article. And since I said search bar, it's time for listener mail.

• 46:48Speaker 02

  This is, I'm gonna call this sophomore, smart sophomore. Hey, guys, my name is Matt, and I'm a sophomore in high school. Smart sophomore. Smart sophomore. I'm a newer fan of the show, and I listen while I do everything. Just wanted to say the Dark Ages were only dark in Europe. The life expectancy in the Dark Ages is actually a little longer than before, but mostly because there were smaller wars. But things were certainly brighter in the Islamic world. In fact, people in the Middle East were really enlightened during this time. Within about 100 years, they conquered a lot of new land, including Spain. Also, the Arabic language grew to be the language of philosophy, medicine, and poetry. And Baghdad became the world's center of scholarship. They translated almost all of the famous Greek philosopher's

• 47:30Speaker 02

  work into Arabic. Muslims developed algebra to simplify inheritance laws, and they made important strides in trigonometry to help people find a way to Mecca. Architecture grew, too. The Great Mosque in Spain only took roughly a year, while medieval cathedrals took hundreds of years to build.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  Wow.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  So the Dark Ages weren't that dark, and the Enlightenment came earlier than most think. And that is from Matt.

• 47:54Josh Clark?

  Thanks, Matt.

• 47:54Speaker 02

  That is enlightening stuff, my friend.

• 47:56Josh Clark?

  Yeah, our numerals are Arabic.

• 47:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:00Josh Clark?

  It's true.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  We should hit on some more Middle Eastern topics.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  Let's do it, man.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:06Josh Clark?

  In the meantime, if you want to suggest some Middle Eastern topics for us, you can send us an email to [email protected]. And as always, hang out at our beautiful home on the web, stuffyoushouldknow.com.

• 48:21Speaker 03

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 48:37Josh Clark?

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• 49:18Josh Clark?

  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the voices of VIVGART. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VIVGART on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody. I am here to talk to you about Dude Wipes, who offer fragrance-free wipes that are made with 99% water and plant-based ingredients. So they're gentle enough for sensitive skin, but they're tough enough for even the worst messes. Weather cleans better, and Dude Wipes flushable wipes deliver textbook freshness and ultimate clean.

• 50:00Josh Clark?

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