“I Regret Nothing!” Clavicular Exposes The Dark World Of Looksmaxxing, Attraction & Extreme Surgery

Bevel: Try one month for FREE at https://www.bevel.health and use code ICED! Cozy Earth: Luxury bedding & loungewear - use code ICH for up to 40% off at https://cozyearth.com Helium Mobile: Sign up (even for the FREE plan) & get $10 in Cloud Points with code COFFEE: https://app.heliummobile.com/o6WA/4jq Shopify: Sign up for a $1 per month trial period at https://shopify.com/ich Follow Clavicular Here: On Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/clavicular0/?hl=en On TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@kingclavicular On X - https://x.com/Clavicular0?lang=en Add us on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jlsselby https://www.instagram.com/gpstephan Apply for The Index Membership: https://entertheindex.com/ Official Clips Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCeBQ24VfikOriqSdKtomh0w For sponsorships or business inquiries reach out to: [email protected] For Podcast Inquiries, please DM @icedcoffeehour on Instagram! Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:01:56 - Platforms he’s banned from 00:03:18 - Why people think looks don’t matter 00:03:55 - His most vs least attractive features 00:05:33 - Why he started looksmaxxing 00:09:46 - His end goal 00:11:55 - Intelligence maxxing 00:13:02 - What to do after reaching your goal 00:19:55 - Sponsor - Bevel Health 00:23:14 - Achieving maximum physical attractiveness 00:24:07 - The halo effect 00:25:28 - When his looks will peak 00:28:21 - Risks of cosmetic procedures 00:35:18 - “Pills” and “maxxing” terminology 00:37:27 - What “subhuman” means 00:39:15 - Sponsor - Cozy Earth 00:40:48 - Why he became so popular 00:49:28 - Things he would NOT recommend 00:50:30 - What’s considered “too far” 00:51:52 - Soft maxxing explained 00:53:13 - Workout for Ideal physique 00:54:16 - Looksmaxxing advice for Jack and Graham 01:00:31 - Thoughts on Botox 01:02:48 - Injection controversy 01:03:40 - Sponsor - Helium 01:05:01 - Sponsor - Shopify 01:06:26 - Greg Doucette questions 01:10:15 - Thoughts on Greg Doucette and Togi 01:12:46 - How much clothing affects looks 01:16:33 - Is the goal status-related? 01:19:56 - Worst mistakes men make 01:20:59 - Is he misunderstood? 01:21:48 - Valid criticism 01:23:09 - Monotone on podcasts vs streams 01:24:09 - What is bonesmashing? 01:26:02 - Has he gone to therapy? 01:28:56 - Status vs money vs looks 01:29:41 - Is he good with women? 01:32:22 - Morality of what he promotes 01:32:50 - Has he ever been in love? 01:39:11 - Last time he felt sadness 01:40:17 - Biggest insecurity 01:41:59 - Should men cry? 01:42:56 - Advice on life maxxing 01:44:33 - Income and revenue streams 01:48:18 - Tier list *Some of the links and other products that appear on this video are from companies which Graham Stephan will earn an affiliate commission or referral bonus. Graham Stephan is part of an affiliate network and receives compensation for sending traffic to partner sites. The content in this video is accurate as of the posting date. Some of the offers mentioned may no longer be available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 0:26Graham Stephan?

  So why does so many people believe that looks don't matter?

• 0:28Speaker 02

  It's easier to convince yourself if you're, you know, not an attractive person that this is not a metric that matters, when it's arguably one of the most important for your overall well-being. If you aren't good-looking, no one's gonna take your opinion seriously.

• 0:41Graham Stephan?

  What's the point of it all? Like, what's the end goal?

• 0:44Speaker 02

  There's no end goal to looks-maxing. The only real goal is to get better-looking, no matter what it takes.

• 0:50Jack Selby?

  Why do you think you have become so popular over the past few months?

• 0:55Speaker 02

  I would say because of my authenticity with everything that I do, even if it might make me be perceived a little worse.

• 1:03Graham Stephan?

  He's got the worst of both traits. The worst of the men combined with the worst of the women. So we previously had Greg Doucette on the podcast.

• 1:11Speaker 02

  Oh, jeez.

• 1:12Graham Stephan?

  He sent over a few questions he wanted to ask. Clavicular.

• 1:16Jack Selby?

  How much do you consider morals with what you do and preach online?

• 1:21Speaker 02

  I don't necessarily care too much about like what I need to do to accomplish a result, if that's what you're asking.

• 1:33Jack Selby?

  Hey, guys. A quick disclaimer on this episode before we start. We on the Iced Coffee Hour firmly believe in hearing out every single perspective. We like to consider ourselves a self-improvement podcast. And so this mentality has been gaining a lot of ground in the self-improvement niche. So we decided to hear him out, of course, go into everything with a healthy level of skepticism and curiosity. He says a lot of stuff on this podcast that's a little inflammatory. We didn't want to have an approach of saying, "No, you can't say that," and policing what he can and can't say. So we heard him out. No filters. Let us know what you guys think. And of course, if you're considering doing any of this stuff, talk to a professional. Don't just go out on your own and do it. Let us know what you guys think about this episode. And if you want more content like this, thank you so much for watching. Appreciate every single one of you. Onto the episode.

• 2:17Jack Selby?

  Clavicular, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour podcast.

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 2:21Jack Selby?

  I gotta ask, which social medias are you banned from?

• 2:25Speaker 02

  I am banned from Instagram and YouTube right now.

• 2:27Jack Selby?

  Do you know why you got banned?

• 2:29Speaker 02

  Uh, something to do with like the new AI moderation system. I had one of my live accounts taken down that uploads like my kickvods, which are, you know, pretty over the line. So, and then for some reason I got my main channel flagged, even though there was no correlation between the channels.

• 2:45Jack Selby?

  They didn't give you an actual reason as to exactly why?

• 2:48Speaker 02

  I believe it was for, uh, talking about pharmaceuticals and something peptide related is a no-go on YouTube now.

• 2:56Jack Selby?

  Did your business take a big hit from these social media accounts being banned?

• 3:00Speaker 02

  Not really. That's not my main source of, of revenue. Uh, YouTube is, is kind of just like a side project and I use that to post a lot of my like informational content. So YouTube actually operates at a loss for me.

• 3:13Jack Selby?

  Hmm. So your main thing is to get to look as good as you possibly can, taking whatever measures necessary to be, what would you call, an Adam or a Chad?

• 3:24Speaker 02

  Something like that. Yeah, there's a lot of like terminology out there. Uh, I just think of it as improving. I don't really have like an end goal in mind. Like I know that looks maxing is a pretty much never-ending process. Like there's really no looks maxed that you could achieve. So just seeing like how far you can go, you know, what you can achieve is kind of my mentality.

• 3:44Jack Selby?

  So why do so many people believe that looks don't matter?

• 3:47Speaker 02

  Uh, it's a lot of cope. It's a lot of people living in delusion fantasy land because it's easy to convince yourself if you're, you know, not an attractive person that this is not a metric that matters when it's arguably one of the most important for your overall wellbeing.

• 4:01Jack Selby?

  How much would you say looks matter as compared to something like personality?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  Um, it matters so much more because your personality is correlated with your looks via the halo effect, right? So people are gonna perceive your personality, your interests, your hobbies vastly different if you're good-looking versus not. So it's, you know, a direct correlation.

• 4:21Jack Selby?

  What would you say are your most attractive and least attractive features right now?

• 4:25Speaker 02

  Um, most attractive features? I would say that I've got a pretty good hairline. Um, well, I mean, I am, you know, pretty young, so that's one of the things that I should. Um, and I would say that my, my jaw from the front profile is, is pretty good. Um, so I would say that. And least attractive features, I would say that my nose and, um...

• 4:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, as well as maybe like the total height of my of my skull can be a little better.

• 4:58Jack Selby?

  How is that not body dysmorphia?

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Well, it could be, absolutely. And I think a lot of people usually end up there, but it's just about how you're gonna let this affect your overall mental well being, right? Uh, you asked me that question and I, you know, sat there and thought about it. Um, but it's not something I ever think about on a day to day basis. I'm not like, oh, my God. I don't want to go outside today because my alar base is too wide or something like that.

• 5:23Jack Selby?

  What is that?

• 5:24Speaker 02

  Just the width of your nose. So, you know, that's not a thought process. That's not a mentality that I hold. It's just I know that I have to improve. I have to get better, you know?

• 5:34Jack Selby?

  But at the same time, thinking about your nose, don't you think that time would be better spent elsewhere?

• 5:39Speaker 02

  Not really, because once again, it's not something I ever think about just on a day to day basis. It's like, I know that, uh, the steps that are required to, you know, fix this, what we call a failo, would be rhinoplasty, but that's the extent of the the thought process, the mental burden. So I don't really see it as problematic.

• 5:59Jack Selby?

  So why did you start this entire process? What did you feel like you were missing in your life?

• 6:04Speaker 02

  Um, I didn't really think that I was missing anything. And the way that it kind of took on,

• 6:10Speaker 02

  was I was pretty big into bodybuilding. I liked watching Rich Piana when I was growing up. And I had a home gym that I was, you know, working out without really any idea what I was doing. So, and then I kind of learned, you know, through my use of forums when I was growing up about, right? And I was already lifting weights and I was like, well, if I could have this cheat code essentially, that's gonna get me to my desired physique, get me my results quicker, why would I not do it? It's not like your typical person who ups on at that age, where they're like, oh, I want to look like David Layne or Jeff Side. That's not my mentality. It was just an objective. Okay, here's a tool that I could utilize and I'm going to do so.

• 6:51Jack Selby?

  So you hopped on at 14, right?

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 6:54Jack Selby?

  And was any part of your brain concerned with consequences of taking that at such a young age?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  No, no, not at all.

• 7:00Jack Selby?

  So what was the mentality going into it? It's just strictly like this will help me reach my goals at a faster rate?

• 7:06Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 7:06Jack Selby?

  Barring whatever consequences?

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it seems pretty silly to not take, like, it seemed more ridiculous to not take. At the time than than to take them, you know, because of of how much quicker I could achieve that physique.

• 7:19Graham Stephan?

  But why not do that naturally and then without taking this? Because at 14, you would just assume that you're already going to make a lot of progress. That there's no point to doing.

• 7:29Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, that mentality, I think, is holding a lot of people back. Like, why not do it naturally? Because it's gonna not only take longer, but you're not gonna get nearly the results that you otherwise could, you know? So just not doing whatever it takes was completely off the table for me. That's like the rich piano mentality, whatever it takes.

• 7:49Graham Stephan?

  How did you get them?

• 7:51Speaker 02

  Just ordering on the internet.

• 7:53Graham Stephan?

  You were not concerned about ordering off the internet?

• 7:57Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 7:59Graham Stephan?

  How did you know what you were gonna get, though? How do you know it's gonna be legitimate? And how do you know what to take?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I did my due diligence with like, you know, online forums and talking about this stuff. So it took me a little while to figure it out, but, you know, same same way everyone else does.

• 8:13Graham Stephan?

  And what about your parents? Did they have any idea that you were doing this?

• 8:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, they were not happy with my decision. They would go and, you know, go through my room from time to right, from time to time and take them away. Or, you know, snipe the mail. They'd always be going through my packages, trying to, you know, intercept. But they were not in support of it at all.

• 8:34Graham Stephan?

  Did you have any of your friends in support of this? Was anyone in support of this, aside from yourself?

• 8:39Speaker 02

  Um, no one really had much to say about it. And they just, you know, I guess appreciated the honesty, because a lot of people take and lie. But I was always someone who just didn't care. Even when I first started, because people who are normies usually put, it's like this weird binary in their head where it's like, okay, you're on, you should look like Ronnie Coleman, you know what I mean? Rather than, okay, you're on, well, how much? Oh, you're only on a little bit of testosterone. Like, that makes sense that after two months that you're not an IFBB pro. But that's not how how people's brains work. So I would definitely take on a little bit of of heat for that. Oh, you know, you're, you know, barely big for taking pro. But I didn't care. I was always open about it.

• 9:23Graham Stephan?

  Did you start immediately getting more attention from women?

• 9:26Speaker 02

  No, I would say that I probably looked worse taking.

• 9:31Speaker 02

  For a little while because I didn't really know how to do them properly. You know, you deal with issues with your skin. I was, you know, getting severely bloated. I was doing dirty bulk. So like the gym was kind of something that looks mended me at the start. And the reason I started doing looks maxing was because I was on these forums. And then there was a little of like the black pill influence, like looks maxers coming into the spaces and just that overlap. Like, wait a second, guys, we're doing all this gym selling and, you know, dedicating all our time. Maybe our priorities are wrong. Maybe we should be focused on the face. I was like, yeah, okay, that makes sense. And that's kind of where I segued around the age of 16 into looks maxing.

• 10:11Graham Stephan?

  What's the point of it all? Like, what's the end goal of looks maxing?

• 10:16Speaker 02

  Well, once again, there's no end goal to looks maxing.

• 10:20Graham Stephan?

  What's the point? Like, what do you, what's the objective?

• 10:23Speaker 02

  Well, the objective is to get better looking because that's going to allow for more opportunities, allow for better overall treatment. You know, just that subconscious bias in people that you're leveraging by, you know, becoming better and better looking is really worth all the effort that you put in.

• 10:39Graham Stephan?

  But don't you think that someone could achieve 90% of looks maxing? Really just going to the gym, eating healthy, getting a haircut, getting fit clothes?

• 10:50Jack Selby?

  Soft maxing, as they call it.

• 10:51Graham Stephan?

  90%. And then the other 10% that you would spend years trying to build, you could spend that 10% doing anything else to make you more attractive in other areas. For instance, personality, business, intelligence, things like this.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  I would say that the number falls closer to 70%. And I agree with that general premise that you just gave. But I think you're overestimating the time burden of looks maxing. It's not like something that you really have to do. In a lot of regards, you actually have to focus on business because like that additional like 30% would be typically very expensive. So you've got to have, you know, the budget set aside to be able to do things like plastic surgery, things like some of these peptides. It's not exactly a cheap process, but it's not really time intensive either.

• 11:35Jack Selby?

  How much have you spent on your current looks maxing journey? And how much do you intend on spending throughout the rest of your life, do you think?

• 11:43Speaker 02

  I think I probably spend around $50,000 to $80,000 a year just on like peptides.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  So I would say that that's probably the majority. That's like, obviously, an absurd figure. Like, it's not required that you do that. I think your average person will probably, who's doing like a lot of this protocols, maybe run them $5,000 to $10,000 a year. But I'm experimenting with like a lot of different stuff like NAD and like a lot of nootropic related stuff that really pushes the the price up. So like, intelligence maxing is like another thing I do.

• 12:22Jack Selby?

  What is intelligence maxing?

• 12:24Speaker 02

  Well, using different pharmaceuticals and nootropics to try to be, you know, as mentally cognizant and sharp as possible.

• 12:31Jack Selby?

  And how do you actually record how intelligent you are? How do you know if you're making forward progress?

• 12:37Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, just, you could definitely notice the acute mental clarity with like a lot of these nootropics that you're taking. For example, something like Semax, if you, you know, take that in conjunction with, you know, a stimulant, you're really going to feel a lot more dialed in. Like, and it's very noticeable. It's not like a placebo garbage cope supplement that you could take. That's like very legitimate stuff. So in that regard, but in terms of like doing IQ tests and stuff like from time to time, I think that's a little bit silly to begin with. So I wouldn't really say it needs to be measured because we have the literature. We have the studies to support that this stuff does, you know, cause like things like synaptogenesis.

• 13:22Speaker 02

  And that's going to make you more intelligent.

• 13:24Jack Selby?

  So is this all yourself trying to progress towards this ideal version of yourself? And then what do you do once you reach that?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out the objective. Like, is this to get like, is this to get girls? Is it to like, make money? Like, what's the purpose of this? Well, all of those things are true, right? Being better looking just is so advantageous in getting women. But it's like, at the end of the day, that would be like a silly reason to do something with this. My dedication just to get women, because there's a lot of different things that you could do. To get women, like you could become a more interesting person even like you could learn like a lot of these psychological tactics. There are steps that you could take, but it's just about, you know, whatever I want to do, my message will be received better. I'll be received better as a person entirely when I become good looking. So

• 14:16Speaker 02

  there's essentially no lane that I could take that I wouldn't benefit from massively from looks maxing.

• 14:21Graham Stephan?

  You don't think you've already accomplished 99% of that?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  No, not at all.

• 14:26Graham Stephan?

  Do you really think that if you had maybe a sharper nose or a more chiseled jawline that you would make more opportunity, more money? Do you think that's what's holding you back?

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely, because, you know, I take a look at percentiles, like where I am. I would say I'm probably, you know, maybe top 90th percentile in terms of looks. But, you know, you push yourself further, just like that additional 10 percentiles, and what you start to achieve and the doors start to open are like, you know, for example, like the one guy Jeremy Meeks who commits a felony and has a bunch of girls find him attractive and bail him out on Facebook. And then he gets a $1 million modeling contract. Or Jordan Barrett, who gets caught stealing, another like, you know, contracts and like all these people who do like these heinous crimes and just like have girls like stamping

• 15:19Speaker 02

  over them. That's what becomes available to you. So life is like just impossible to lose.

• 15:25Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but are you going to be committing crimes? I mean,

• 15:27Speaker 02

  Well, that's an example to show the halo.

• 15:29Graham Stephan?

  Those guys, it's purely because they went viral based on their mugshot.

• 15:32Speaker 02

  No.

• 15:33Graham Stephan?

  It's like, it's the crime. And then you see the face and you're like, wait a second, that face can't fit that crime. Like I see a lot of women now, you see their mugshots of like, she just threw hot coffee on this guy and went to jail. And it's like some attractive, like 20 something year old. And they go viral on Twitter.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  Well, not when you're getting like modeling contracts worth millions of dollars, right? That's like a looks level that, and you know, I'm pretty sure Brad Pitt even had a similar come up story. I don't recall his exactly. But life just becomes like uneasy mode. Like you're basically playing like creative in Minecraft, you know?

• 16:06Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but how do you explain then Mark Zuckerberg or a lot of these billionaires, which are just Average looking dudes.

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Easy, because they're extremely innovative. They came up with something that's never been seen before. And I'm not sitting here suggesting that you can't win at life if you're not good looking. I'm just suggesting that it would be drastically easier, right? And I don't think that's really a controversial thing to say. I would say that if Mark Zuckerberg were to be a top percentile mogger, then he would be even more successful.

• 16:38Graham Stephan?

  I would disagree with that. I would say that if he's so attractive, people might not take him as seriously. And that part of the reason he did so well is because people see him as a quote unquote nerd. And they see his face and his style, and they associate that with someone who's really good at tech. And if he were a model looking dude, I think he would be passed up on a lot of opportunity. Just because they're like, oh, a dude this good looking can't possibly create this whole social network. Versus the dude who fits the part. I think it's really just about looking the part. And I would argue and push back for you. I think you would benefit the most from taking comedy classes and stand up classes and work on charisma more so than looks. Because just objectively, I see you.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  So jester maxing?

• 17:25Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required. Compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 17:50Graham Stephan?

  Probably.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  Jester maxing?

• 17:52Graham Stephan?

  I've never heard of that. Do you just make that up? Is that a thing?

• 17:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, jester maxing.

• 17:56Graham Stephan?

  It's a thing.

• 17:57Speaker 02

  Doing comedy shows?

• 17:58Graham Stephan?

  I think, yeah, because I look at you and I'm like, dude, you probably, you did probably 98% of the work. You're done as long as you just hit the gym and moisturize your face. That's it. And then charisma and comedy and being just self amused at things. And like that, to me, would take you a lot further.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  Okay, I see. So, you know, obviously, that's completely cope about the Mark Zuckerberg thing. But even if it wasn't, that's just one anecdote, right? But we're talking about across a society and general principles. People are going to receive you better and you're going to be more successful if you're good-looking. So even if you were correct, I don't really think it's even worth necessarily like going into like a back and forth about just one specific anecdote.

• 18:46Graham Stephan?

  Here's another point I want to make, because I'm not a tall guy. And they have these studies out there that say that for every inch you are, I think above like 5'10" or something, you make more money.

• 18:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:58Graham Stephan?

  And it looks like on the surface, short people make less than taller people, and therefore, if you're taller, you're going to make more money. When they really got down to the study, it was not due to the height, but due to the confidence that person had. And the taller the person, the more likely they are to be confident. And because they are confident, they're more likely to take career risk and take risks in approaching people, and because of that, they feel more comfortable. It was that as a differentiation and not the height itself.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, because you know, you think about evolution, you know, if you're taller, you're, you know, a biological dominator just intrinsically. So of course, you're going to be more confident, but that's still correlated with looks, right?

• 19:37Graham Stephan?

  No, I think it's correlated with confidence.

• 19:40Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the confidence stems from the looks, from you being...

• 19:43Graham Stephan?

  No, I think the confidence, the confidence stems from within if you believe in yourself and you have the assurance that no matter what you put your mind to, you'll be able to achieve.

• 19:53Speaker 02

  When you're bigger than the rest, the average, you know, guy, the rest of the population, that's what I would say would be the main driver of your confidence level.

• 20:03Graham Stephan?

  I would say that when you're bigger, you don't have to, you don't have to work as hard as if you have something to overcome.

• 20:10Jack Selby?

  I think confidence comes from evidence. I know that most of my confidence was, it had arrived after I achieved some sort of like success. And so whether you're short and you work really hard and achieve material success, the confidence is coming from that. If you're tall and you achieve, you know, physical dominance, like the confidence comes from that. It's not just because you're tall, it's not just because, you know, you're short. It's kind of like through the evidence and you proving to yourself over time.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  I see. Okay, well, yeah. Agree to disagree there. You know, I would say that looks are just like the, you know, end all be all for opportunities.

• 20:48Jack Selby?

  So guys, it's about that time of year where you start thinking about the next year and all of the things that you want to improve on. Things like getting healthier, eating cleaner, building better habits, and actually sticking to a routine. This is the moment everyone sets massive goals, but most do not have a system that actually helps them follow through.

• 21:04Graham Stephan?

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• 21:17Jack Selby?

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• 21:28Graham Stephan?

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• 21:42Jack Selby?

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• 21:51Graham Stephan?

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• 22:00Jack Selby?

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• 22:16Graham Stephan?

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• 22:32Jack Selby?

  I would say I mostly agree that looks are very important. I agree with the halo effect. I think you're right on that. I think, wasn't there some study that showed more attractive people get shorter sentences?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  Yes, and it's quite significant. It's around 40% shorter sentences.

• 22:50Jack Selby?

  So it's clearly not inconsequential to look really good. I think the main part that we're disagreeing on is that if you're really trying to like life max to speak the lingo, then it would make more sense to spend a little bit more time developing some other skills that you could be lacking, pulling your overall like weighted score down more than like not having a perfect nose.

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, and I, I tend to agree with like a lot of like the red pill podcast guys on this. I just literally think there's the, the key nuance missing of looks being mentioned whatsoever. I almost never hear guys like, you know, Tate, like those type of figures even mention it, whereas I agree with all the stuff you guys are talking about, like improving upon other metrics, becoming a more interesting person, um, you know, focusing on business and, and, you know, maximizing your income. This is all stuff that I talk about and heavily advocate for. I just don't think it's necessarily the most important thing. And none of it's mutually exclusive, so it doesn't matter whatsoever because looks maxing is not a time intensive thing whatsoever. It's, it's very simple.

• 23:54Speaker 02

  It's just a few principles to follow, like, you know, the, the main one being maintaining a low body fat. You know, so there's no, there's no conflict there with, you know, maybe working on your charisma.

• 24:07Jack Selby?

  What are the most basic things someone can do to achieve maximum physical appearance?

• 24:12Speaker 02

  I would say that's just as I mentioned, being lean, low body fat percentage is going to give you such an advantage over the average, especially in a country like America with the obesity rates, right? People are typically sitting between 20 to 30% body fat. So if you're able to really like shred yourself down to that 10, 12 mark, uh, that facial angularity that you gain is going to serve you so well. So that's the easiest thing that you could do as well. And that's going to largely be about like 70% of what you could accomplish in terms of soft maxing is quite literally just being lean. And the next thing you could do that's a really big one is, uh, being tan, right? That's another health indicator and there's a lot of sexual preference surveys that suggest

• 24:55Speaker 02

  that this is the most optimal, uh, coloring for, um, you know, female sexual attraction.

• 25:01Graham Stephan?

  What is the halo effect?

• 25:03Speaker 02

  The halo effect is people receiving you better, your personality, your interests, your hobbies, based on your appearance, right? So, for example, if two people were into video games and one of them was good-looking and one of them was not, the good-looking guy might be, "Oh, that's really interesting. That's a unique hobby you have." Might be how someone would react and they might call the unattractive person playing video games, even though it's the exact same thing, just a nerd, a loser, you know? So that's an example.

• 25:35Graham Stephan?

  And when did you decide to go all-in?

• 25:39Speaker 02

  I would say that it was an evolving process. It wasn't like, you know, one day I had like a girl break up with me and I'm like, "Okay, I'm doing looks-maxing all-in." It was kind of just as the information hit me, I applied what made sense to me. I go about looks-maxing in like a very objective way. I would say a lot of guys, like for doing stuff like the gym and self-improvement, it usually stems from some huge cope, whether it be just like a girl like breaking up with them or like, you know, just some type of motivation like that. And that's where you get like a lot of like the losers, like the cringe is from that, rather than just like, "Okay, objectively, this could make my life better."

• 26:21Graham Stephan?

  And when do you think you're gonna peak in terms of looks? I'm sure at a certain age, there's gonna be a bit of a decline.

• 26:28Speaker 02

  I'd say in like a year or two would probably be when that would occur.

• 26:32Graham Stephan?

  What needs to happen between now and then?

• 26:33Speaker 02

  Well, I'm getting jaw surgery soon, so that's gonna be one of the biggest things. And then just getting back into the gym, because with content, I've been really like at a loss with trying to manage my schedule, you know, doing these long live streams, doing like a lot of podcast appearances and like continuing to work out. So, once I get those two things out and I would say I'll be certainly nearing that.

• 26:57Graham Stephan?

  What's the surgery you're getting?

• 26:59Speaker 02

  A double jaw surgery.

• 27:00Graham Stephan?

  What is that?

• 27:01Speaker 02

  It's an osteotomy of the upper maxilla and lower mandible.

• 27:05Graham Stephan?

  Just dumb it down for me. I don't know what any of that...

• 27:07Speaker 02

  So they basically make a cut on the lower jaw and then move it forward and apply screws. Um, and same with the upper jaw. It's like a, it's called a La Fort osteotomy. They cut along your interior nasal spine and then advance your jaw forward. It's like they actually have to break your jaw.

• 27:24Graham Stephan?

  Why?

• 27:25Jack Selby?

  How many points do you think you're gonna go up on the one through 10 scale after getting that surgery?

• 27:30Speaker 02

  1.5.

• 27:30Jack Selby?

  1.5?

• 27:31Graham Stephan?

  How did you come to 1.5? What do you rate yourself out of 10?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't.

• 27:36Graham Stephan?

  Like an, but if you move up one and a half, is that like out of 10?

• 27:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say that that's generally how much people improve from, from BIMAX. From what I've seen.

• 27:49Graham Stephan?

  How much is that gonna cost?

• 27:50Speaker 02

  35,000.

• 27:51Graham Stephan?

  And what's the recovery like?

• 27:53Speaker 02

  It's, it's pretty brutal. I'd say for the first three weeks, then after that, you just have residual swelling that kind of subsides over like a three to six month period.

• 28:01Graham Stephan?

  Has anyone tried to talk you out of this?

• 28:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, pretty much everyone, like parents and stuff like that, just coppers, normies.

• 28:08Graham Stephan?

  The, the, the only thing that I see with you, again, just objectively, is that if you do the surgery, your views are gonna shoot through the roof because people are gonna wanna tune in to see, okay, what happened? So you'll, you'll make the money back. So it'll be a free surgery.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, of course.

• 28:25Graham Stephan?

  The downside is if the surgery goes wrong, in which case your views double from what they would be otherwise. But beyond just more of a shock factor.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. No, I absolutely understand that perspective. And, um, usually when people are trying to talk me out of the surgery, they've, uh, you know, often never heard of it before. Um, so I, I've done a lot of research into this. I wouldn't be choosing this like as a way to just like get attention and get views. I like, there's no way I would permanently disfigure myself for that reason. And I decided upon jaw surgery for reasons other than social media. Like I didn't start doing social media up until like a few months ago. Um, so I was already dead set on, on this course of action far before then.

• 29:14Graham Stephan?

  Do you think there could be a point though where you do certain surgeries and it makes you less attractive? Like a lot of people lately have been talking about, uh, Bradley Cooper, right? He had a facelift.

• 29:24Jack Selby?

  Or Zac Efron.

• 29:25Graham Stephan?

  Or Zac Efron, right?

• 29:26Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, that's just incorrect surgical choices. They're, you know, Zac Efron is doing filler, which doesn't dissolve, it migrates, right? So you do filler into your cheekbones. Slowly migrates down your face into your buccal region. It's just gonna make you look like a bloated pig, right? So of course, um, you know, if you go about things the wrong way, if you go to surgeons, you know, incorrect procedures, yeah, that can happen. But it's, you know, people like my job, myself's job to advocate for, you know, proper surgical intervention and actually doing things the right way.

• 30:00Jack Selby?

  I would say overall, as a message to spread, this could be good, but it's more than likely bad, at least to that degree. I'm curious, if you were to spread a message to a million people, so know that some people will take it in the right way, some people will take it in the wrong way. What is the exact message that you want to spread to them in terms of looks maxing? In terms of what you're comfortable with?

• 30:24Speaker 02

  I think people should just be more aware of self-improvement in general, not necessarily, um, you know, taking it to the extreme that I do without, you know, going through the wringer with just stuff like getting lean, going to the gym. I think you should start there, see what you can accomplish and slowly build an understanding. And then, you know, you want to come back and take a look like maybe, things still aren't going so well for you because there is this huge purgatory zone where even like the average to above average looking man who's, you know, got a decent job, can't even find a sexual partner, right? And that's been well researched, like, um, two thirds of men 18 through 21 haven't had sex in six months, right? So it's, it's very difficult in today's society.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  So pushing the limits isn't necessarily something I'm, uh, super against advocating for. But I would say that you really have to know, uh, yourself as an individual to make sure you're not going to take things too far or go about it incorrectly.

• 31:21Jack Selby?

  See, I don't think it's a looks thing. I don't think it's just like people are now all of a sudden more unattractive than they were in the past. I think it's more of is that people aren't talking, they're not making the effort, they're, they're chronically online. And if they were to make an effort to go and talk to people in person and work on their personality, they would go so much further.

• 31:38Speaker 02

  Well, that's the thing, um, it's funny you mentioned chronically online because that's the problem, but for a reason that you might not have acknowledged is because. You're not only competing with people in your immediate surroundings. You know, hypergamy would exist where maybe every single girl in a town would go for like, you know, the top five chads or whatever, but that's only in your town. Now with Instagram, you have competition with NFL football players sometimes, right? Because they're flying these girls out. It's sort of globalized dating and that's an awful thing. If you're just like the average dude and you have to compete with, um, you know, like Tom Brady, who's DMing your girlfriend on it's like, there's no, there's no way to win.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  Right? So that's why looks maxing is important.

• 32:25Graham Stephan?

  But then why not use that to your advantage? Why not be a dude who's interesting, who's posting great pictures on Instagram? And then you could become almost the same thing as that.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  No, as Tom Brady or like a football player?

• 32:37Graham Stephan?

  No, as someone who could get girls online too.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  No, no, it's about the status and not necessarily about like building a good Instagram profile. Even if you've got like a few thousand followers, like, um, you know, if someone like, you know, even myself with like the Instagram profile that I had, well, I guess before I got banned, where like DM a girl, um, it doesn't matter if my Instagram is like perfectly like NT and I'm like doing all these neurotypical, um, doing all these activities. It's just about the number and like the clout that comes with it.

• 33:10Jack Selby?

  Okay. So this is a part where I would like to, to fight back a little bit. I do think that there's a little bit of like a self-selected group of people that live here in South Florida. For the record, we are at Ben Mala's place.

• 33:23Graham Stephan?

  Thank you, Ben.

• 33:23Jack Selby?

  Thank you, Ben, for letting us be here. We're in South Florida and I do think that the average type of person that lives here may look for different things than the average type of person coming out of, you know, Arkansas or coming out of California or coming out of New York or coming out of Montana. Like they're all, you know, maybe if you do all of those things to the extreme measure, you're going to be more popular in this location with this type of person. But would you acknowledge that there are communities of people that have different interests?

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Yes, I would say that you're spot on with that. Miami is like the most degenerate city like I've ever like lived even near. That's why I don't even, I can't even live in Miami. I have to live in Delaware, about an hour north, just because of how bad things are down there. But I didn't build this worldview in Miami. I only lived here for about two months. So these were observations that I began making, living in my small town in Massachusetts, right? I noticed that from time to time, I would take interest in a girl. She'd be followed by like a ridiculous like status smogger. And that was like, okay, this globalization of dating is really people over, you know? So that's kind of how I had figured that out.

• 34:35Jack Selby?

  But maybe a girl that would take interest in a guy like that in the first place, would that be your first pick at a girl? Or once you realize, okay, your values are in this area, you know, maybe there's less compatibility. At least I know for myself, if I took interest in a girl and yet she was followed by all these DJs and she's following them, I'm like, ah, like, I don't really know if that's something I'm interested in.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Right. But I mean, like, at the end of the day, women are always looking for like, you know, the next best thing. They're extremely hypergamous in nature. And, you know, maybe you're able to beat this, uh, you know, issue and find a good girl who's maybe not even on Instagram. We're talking about a societal issue. I think it really just depends on the type of person you're talking to. Cause it really depends on how they grew up, their priorities.

• 35:23Jack Selby?

  Right. But he's saying it's a societal broadly speaking, bringing up a specific.

• 35:27Speaker 02

  Right. So I'm not sitting here suggesting that you can't find a girlfriend who's wonderful. You can't get married and start a great family in 2025. I'm just saying it's become increasingly difficult. And from the last generations, dating has really took a turn for the worse. And I am speculating that it's going to continue to become more and more hypergamous. So, you know, you are right that you can't find great girls with great upbeings, but just as a general rule of thumb. Cause I like to look at the black pill and lookism in a very societal sociological context.

• 36:03Jack Selby?

  What's lookism?

• 36:04Speaker 02

  Lookism is just treating people differently based on their looks.

• 36:08Jack Selby?

  So it's sort of like a halo effect?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like racism but for looks. What are all these pills? I don't understand what a black pill is. The black pill is, um, it's an idea about genetic determinism and it stems from like The Matrix. Like you take the red pill and then you stop living in Fantasyland. It's like the idea behind it. So like you could swallow all these different pills for like these different ideas and like you kind of unlock them. So, um, you know, and people will make memes about it. They'll like, you know, say like, you could, for example, take like the, I don't even know. Take like the haircut pill and just like to memify the thing. Yeah, sure. Like getting a haircut will say, or something like that.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Uh, or like the red pill, um, would be like another just like meme version of it.

• 36:58Jack Selby?

  And that would mean that like getting is the best thing you could do for your life, basically?

• 37:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. So like your pill, like you're, you're in tune with that idea.

• 37:07Jack Selby?

  So what's the difference between black and red pill?

• 37:10Speaker 02

  So black pill is like, um, genetic determinism. It's saying like your life is going to go a certain way based on your genetics, whether or not you're good looking. And the red pill suggests that you could actually improve upon your base. You can change your life and it's more of like a improvement mentality. And the black pill is more of like a doomer mentality. So, um, the black pill is more correlated with the looks maxing space because a lot of it is like incels who have like a lot of, you know, uh, self resentment and kind of stuff like that. So that's why it's there. But I think black pill extremism is, um, and it's, you know, comes from extreme cognitive dissonance. They don't really understand the world at all.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  So I would say that I'm kind of like somewhere in the middle of like the red pill and the black pill. I think that a lot of what's suggested in the red pill, which is like, oh, you could just like go to the gym. Um, and you know, you'll be able to send your life, you know? But you're talking to people with like, you know, genetically low intellect who are extremely subhuman. Um, I think that thing that's, you know, very dishonest, but I definitely think that there's room for improvement for everyone. What's subhuman? Subhuman is a term that we use in like the looks max community for like horrendously ugly people.

• 38:30Graham Stephan?

  Where would they fall on the scale of like one to 10? Is that like below a five?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. Traditionally, like around like a three.

• 38:38Graham Stephan?

  Can they not be subhuman? Like, they could take themselves from subhuman to like optimal? Like, what's the most that you could increase points?

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 38:46Graham Stephan?

  From one to 10?

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Well, that depends on whether or not puberty is in play because you could jump like.

• 38:52Graham Stephan?

  Let's say you're 25. You're 25 and you're subhuman.

• 38:55Speaker 02

  25, subhuman? I would say that 10 to 15 percentiles would be like the maximum if you're to like look max to the extent that I am. But besides that.

• 39:04Graham Stephan?

  Let's say naturally. Let's say, let's say you're in, naturally today, you're 25 and you're a four out of 10.

• 39:09Speaker 02

  It depends on like where we are. Like, if we're like a fat, you know, acne ridden jester, it's like, that's something that could be easily soft max. So that would be a huge jump. So it's all contextual. I don't think it would be something I could give like a general principle for.

• 39:24Graham Stephan?

  Do you think it's possible to go from a four to an eight?

• 39:28Speaker 02

  Once again, it's just very context oriented. So I couldn't give you an answer there. But I would say that, yeah, sometimes it just depends on what's driving the scale up or down. Like, if we were to take, like, I mean, Christian Bale has even done that. Like, when he goes for like movies like The Machinist and gets extremely skinny. Or what's the one where he got extremely overweight for a movie role?

• 39:51Graham Stephan?

  Oh, gosh, I know the one you're talking about.

• 39:53Speaker 02

  I, yeah.

• 39:53Graham Stephan?

  Yeah.

• 39:54Speaker 02

  Regardless, you guys get the idea. And then you have him like for American Psycho where he fully looks maxed. So like, that's a four to an eight. Like, what are we talking about?

• 40:02Speaker 02

  But it's just, why are you a four to begin with? You know, what, is it your, your body fat? Or is it like your?

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• 40:33Speaker 02

  Bone structure.

• 40:34Graham Stephan?

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• 40:44Jack Selby?

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• 40:54Graham Stephan?

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• 42:00Graham Stephan?

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• 42:07Jack Selby?

  Why do you think you have become so popular over the past few months? The thing is for us, we are somewhat of like a self-improvement podcast. I like to think that people can tune in, they can learn something about finance, they can learn something about the gym, they can learn something about health, whatever it may be. That's what the goal is here. And obviously you've been rising in the ranks of like self-development extremely, extremely fast. So we just couldn't ignore you. We're like, okay, like, you know, this would make sense to have Klav on the podcast. But I'm curious, like, why you have such an attractive personality to so many people out there?

• 42:41Speaker 02

  I would say because of my authenticity with everything that I do, even if it's something that might make me look or be perceived a little worse. I just really don't care about like being like a PR trained influencer. I blow brand deals all the time, you know, just by, you know, being authentic. I'm not like performative for the cameras. It's not like I have to go around having people like sign NDAs who are, you know, I'm hanging out with off camera because I'm the exact same person regardless of what I do. And I would say that that offers like a huge advantage.

• 43:18Speaker 02

  Based on like what people are used to with most influencers are like very performative a lot of the time. Like their virtue signal about political issues and I'm like the complete opposite of that. So people like that, and it's also something new that I'm mentioning because people have gone through, you know, the, the final boss of Copes and they've done, you know, like pickup artist, like coaching and stuff like that, or they've done just regular fitness and their life hasn't really changed in the way that they were promised by a lot of the old people in the manosphere. And now I'm coming in and acknowledging like, wait a second, guys, maybe it's not your personality. Maybe it's not your game.

• 44:03Speaker 02

  It could be something a little bit deeper, you know, so offering that new perspective, I think, has also risen me to fame. And as well as my speaking abilities, I think I could convey my message fairly well on podcasts.

• 44:16Graham Stephan?

  I tend to think it's just a bit of the, I'm going to go back to the extremism. That a lot of people look at you objectively and say, okay, you're a good looking guy. Who doesn't need to do these things, but then you're taking that already to an extreme. At the same time that no one else is really doing the looks maxing thing to your degree. So you, you have like this first mover advantage with a really unique package and a really unique style to it. And that's personally what I think it is. So remember when I first saw you, I think it was, you were at the gym and we're like, and I thought maybe you were joking about like snorting something before working out. And I'm like, what the, there's no way. And then you go down that rabbit hole a little, little bit. And then I realized like, wait a second, a lot of people are listening to you.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. So the, the thing was like one of the more extreme looks maxes. Once again, I heavily advocate against.

• 45:08Graham Stephan?

  What, what was that?

• 45:10Speaker 02

  Well.

• 45:10Graham Stephan?

  To explain this for people who haven't seen it.

• 45:12Speaker 02

  So as I was rising to fame, right? I was like, okay, I really need to cash in and capitalize. On this like, you know, jump in exposure that I'm getting, you know, from a lot of different collaborations. So I was like, okay, I need to ascend as quickly as possible. So what I did was I suppressed my appetite to an extremely high degree with.

• 45:36Jack Selby?

  Like actual, like we're talking about like the street?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  No, not street.

• 45:40Jack Selby?

  Are we talking like, we're talking like Adderall or we're talking like?

• 45:43Speaker 02

  Talking dextrom.

• 45:46Speaker 02

  So, yeah.

• 45:48Jack Selby?

  So it's, it's not quite like Adderall would be like dextromethamine?

• 45:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:54Jack Selby?

  And dextrom. So like, what would the main difference between those two be?

• 45:59Speaker 02

  There's just the addition of the group, which makes it longer acting, more psychoactive and just cross your blood brain barrier fairly quicker.

• 46:08Jack Selby?

  And then what about the difference between that and street?

• 46:11Speaker 02

  Street has different isomers in it. So there will typically be like more L versus, you know, desoxin, which is like the dextrom would be D. So just like the different isomers kind of do different things like the L isomer is much more of a like a physical like tweaker stimuli. That's where you see like the hobos on the street tweaking off of L.

• 46:37Jack Selby?

  So do you think that establishing that distinction is important at all? Because I do wonder if you just say, oh yeah, I'm doing, you know, then kids are gonna watch and they're like, okay, like let me go over to this guy hanging out at the bottom of this fence and see what he's got, you know, because I'm trying to look like Clav, when in actuality, it's not exactly that. But obviously colloquially, we always think of, you know, as that.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean, I'm always very quick to clarify, but the issue that you run into is people just clip things out of context. So it's like, but also at the end of the day, if, you know, someone stumbles across like short form media and they're like, okay, like I'm gonna start doing like, that's just Darwinism at the end of the day. So like, you know what I mean? So I'm not gonna sit here and act like I'm some like influencer. Like I'm not, I'm not. Okay. I'm not, I've never claimed to be. I'm just simply someone who doesn't like the inconvenience of having to conceal the things that I do. When I'm a full-time live streamer.

• 47:38Jack Selby?

  So why did you do that though? What was the objective? What was the goal of?

• 47:42Speaker 02

  Facial leanness to get leaner.

• 47:44Jack Selby?

  To do.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  What do you mean?

• 47:46Jack Selby?

  To start.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Well, also for like the psychoactive benefits, right? So increasing my productivity. So when I was up and coming with like the whole streaming game and when I was doing my YouTube videos, I could just be more productive.

• 47:59Jack Selby?

  Couldn't you do that with like pre-workout or coffee?

• 48:02Speaker 02

  I mean, yeah, you could, but I mean, like it's comparing like, you know, creatine to, you know?

• 48:09Jack Selby?

  Did you get this idea of doing from anyone else online?

• 48:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:13Jack Selby?

  So you came up with this?

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, pretty much.

• 48:16Jack Selby?

  And what was the logic behind coming up with it? Like, how did you read a forum or where did that information come about?

• 48:22Speaker 02

  Um, well, I just, I mean, I've always been like kind of a stim maxer and I was

• 48:30Jack Selby?

  What's that?

• 48:31Speaker 02

  Like a stimulant user, just a stimulant maxer.

• 48:34Jack Selby?

  So I'm a boomer.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  I would.

• 48:36Jack Selby?

  I'm thirty five and so it's like a new world, new language.

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Typically stim max with, and that's just like was a cope. That's like a physical stimulant. It's horrible for your heart. All right, you know, you're blocking the sodium channel. You could have a heart attack in a second and die. But a lot of the was often laced with like amphetamine salts anyway. And then I, for the first time, tried

• 49:03Speaker 02

  street, like when I would say like almost a year ago. And I was like, wow, this is like extremely longer acting. And I'm like, wow, like I haven't eaten in like a day. So that was, that was the only time I did it because, um, you know, I was like, okay, I don't really want to do this. Like this is, this is not great. And then, um, you know, as I started coming into more virality, I, I was like, okay, like this is, I acknowledge it is bad, but like I need to get lean as quickly as possible. So this is like kind of a weird, unique situation and this is a weird method. Like I don't advocate.

• 49:38Jack Selby?

  How are you getting it?

• 49:39Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I'm not gonna talk about sourcing, but once again, I heavily advocate against stimulant usage. I think that if most people with their willpower get Adderall prescriptions, they're gonna misuse them, they're gonna just take Adderall to get high. So that's why I say, like, do not take-

• 49:58Graham Stephan?

  So you would be, you're the exception, that you feel like you could control it, use it?

• 50:03Speaker 02

  Well, I've got, I've got strong willpower, right? I mean, it's incredibly addictive. You see people's lives get quite literally ruined.

• 50:10Graham Stephan?

  If you say you have strong willpower, couldn't you have the willpower then just to get the work done without the-

• 50:17Speaker 02

  Well, there's no reason to do so, you know, because it's, it becomes more optimal to do it a certain way, so just makes no sense to-

• 50:24Graham Stephan?

  When's the last time you did?

• 50:26Speaker 02

  I would say about two weeks ago. I've been, I haven't done any, I haven't been drinking, and I always do that, like, as like, you know, a tolerance break and just kind of a litmus test to see, like, okay, like, I'm still good, like, I'm not actually, like, dependent on stimulants. So I'm just like, oh, okay, I'm not gonna take any stimulants. I'll do no caffeine even for, like, a while, just to kind of reset myself.

• 50:49Graham Stephan?

  What are the things you've done along the journey of looks maxing that you would not recommend for the viewers?

• 50:54Speaker 02

  I would say that that's probably a big one, stimulants for appetite suppressants. I would not advocate for that. I would say that the testosterone thing, to a large degree, you can wind up yourself over because the aromatization into estradiol can actually cause your growth plates to close prematurely. So if you're not carefully managing that aromatization, taking something like an aromatase inhibitor, you could wind to, wind up actually screwing yourself quite significantly.

• 51:24Graham Stephan?

  Is there anything that you've done that you regret doing?

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Hmm, is there anything that I regret doing? Hmm. No, there's nothing that, like, went horrendously wrong, per se.

• 51:35Graham Stephan?

  Is there anything you wouldn't do again?

• 51:37Speaker 02

  Not really. I mean, just like the higher doses of testosterone. I, I wouldn't have done tren again. I, I did tren for, like, two or three weeks, and that caused my hair to really, like, take a, a big hit. You know, recovered, but like, tren, I, I definitely regret it.

• 51:51Graham Stephan?

  What would you consider to be too far?

• 51:54Speaker 02

  I don't really think that there's like going too far unless you're causing detriment to your health, unless something is looks managing you in another metric. So it's like, I don't really understand that premise.

• 52:08Graham Stephan?

  Do you think that that would do detriment to your health?

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Well, in high doses, it's extremely neurotoxic. Yeah. Dopamine toxicity is a very real thing. So if you take high doses of any dopamine release stimulant, then yeah, it's neurotoxic.

• 52:23Graham Stephan?

  I heard on Bradley Martin, you were doing stuff to your downstairs.

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was doing like shopping bag hanging and like pumping. I haven't really been PE maxing since I just.

• 52:34Graham Stephan?

  What is that?

• 52:35Speaker 02

  Penis enhancement. I haven't been doing that as of lately, but that was something I did last year in 2024.

• 52:43Graham Stephan?

  How do you, is there, is there like a forum that you see this or?

• 52:47Speaker 02

  R slash getting bigger. If you refer to like Leon Longevity, he does a lot of stuff, Connor Murphy. I would say are more like veteran, like PE maxers to refer to. I certainly have made content about it and sort of the things that I did, but I wouldn't really classify myself as like an expert in that field.

• 53:04Graham Stephan?

  Jack's been told that it doesn't really matter how big it is, just it's how you use it.

• 53:10Speaker 02

  Well, there's like what women say and like what they actually do.

• 53:13Jack Selby?

  So on soft maxing, because I like talking about this because I think it's something that I have a more strong endorsement of. You're not like permanently changing anything about your body. You're just trying to get in better shape. You're maybe trying to, I don't know, do some light work to your face, like fix your eyebrows, get a good hairstyle, nice clothing that fits. I'm curious, for going to the gym, if you're trying to develop your physique into the most physically aesthetic physique possible, what are the best workouts to do that?

• 53:38Speaker 02

  So I would say it's more about like principles rather than workouts. And people have gotten this so wrong for so many years in the gym fitness community is like just a joke to me because they don't understand about like training frequencies and what's actually optimal for hypertrophy. I would say up until about 2022, everything was so far from the truth, like even from fitness figures that I liked, like doing like the eight hour arm workouts like from Rich. Or like people would even say you have to do like a hundred curls before you go to sleep. So your body is like thinking about producing muscle. Like the whole thing is just like such a joke. So, you know, simply what I'm, I'm telling you guys is if you actually look at the literature

• 54:21Speaker 02

  and you know, the studies on like EMG activation, uh, what you, you know, find out is doing something that's high frequency with low volume, uh, is the most optimal way to induce hypertrophy.

• 54:33Graham Stephan?

  So it would be the perfect workout for a physique right now.

• 54:36Speaker 02

  So the perfect workout, uh, split, I'll say that would be like an upper, lower split where you go, you do your upper body and then you do, uh, you know, your lower body the next day, uh, with generally low amounts of set volume. So that would look like, um, you know, maybe two sets for your chest. And then you alternate between these two muscle groups and that's going to induce the best results.

• 54:59Graham Stephan?

  What do you think all the billionaires are doing to get shredded? Like a Jeff Bezos.

• 55:03Speaker 02

  Oh, they're usually doing TRT and Ozempic. Jeff Bezos is a classic case of TRT and likely a GLP-1. So this is just like all the, these designers, um, billionaires have been using them for about two years now, and now they're kind of like available to the normies, like the mainstream. And even myself, I've been using these things, talking about them for the longest time. Now I see like even moms like driving around minivans, doing TikTok lives promoting GLP-1s and Ozempic. It's just quite comical to me because it's like, okay, you guys kind of stole my talking points here.

• 55:36Graham Stephan?

  What do you think Jack and I should do to looks max?

• 55:39Speaker 02

  Oh, um, I mean, I just, I would.

• 55:42Graham Stephan?

  What do you think?

• 55:43Speaker 02

  I would say that, um, the, the best way to looks max and like increase your dimorphism would be taking testosterone. That's a really phenomenal way to, uh, not only increase your dimorphism in the face, but increase your presence, your frame. Those are all, you know, amazing things that you could do. And it's not a huge time investment, not a lot of financial burden there. So, uh, just getting like the most comprehensive understanding of.

• 56:10Speaker 02

  And, you know, all the exogenous hormone usage and then implementing that can go a long way.

• 56:16Jack Selby?

  Okay, so we're not gonna do that. We're not gonna do any like exogenous stuff. We're not gonna ourself with anything. What about just soft maxing? What would you say is the best thing we can do?

• 56:24Speaker 02

  So that getting a tan would be uh probably the next best thing.

• 56:28Jack Selby?

  It's so funny, Jack.

• 56:29Speaker 02

  I mentioned that this morning, yeah. So you and I have to do that again. I mean, and I would, I know you guys aren't gonna do anything, but there are things you could do to tan quicker.

• 56:39Jack Selby?

  I mentioned that this morning.

• 56:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, the melanotan too. Okay, well, yeah, so that's a one. All you're doing is preventing premature aging mechanisms by inducing melanogenesis so that, you know, the the amount of UV exposure drastically decreases. So that seems like a very logical thing and that's gonna decrease your chances of getting uh skin cancer. Um, and there's really no uh side effects, you know, all the only side effects that occur from melanotan too would be like acute nausea. But long term, it's perfectly healthy.

• 57:12Jack Selby?

  Okay, so if you're gonna observe Graham first, what can he do to to look as best as possible?

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Glory. Um, well, I mean, it looks like, I can't really tell too much, but it looks like your hairline's receding a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, so I would start with like a hairline, a hair loss protocol would be a good place. I'd use finasteride. You use finasteride? Okay, well, even do TOS might be a little bit better. There's less chance of like the libido related issues. So I would switch over to diet, take minoxidil to regrow everything. Um, and like, you know, obviously like a double jaw surgery, you you would certainly qualify for. Um, so I I would.

• 57:52Jack Selby?

  You can be brutally honest. There's nothing you're gonna say that don't hurt my feelings or anything.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  I would say like double jaw surgery, like the the two jaws are a little bit recessed. So I'd start there.

• 58:03Jack Selby?

  But and then where do you finish? Like, what would you keep doing?

• 58:06Speaker 02

  Well, you you kind of have to just take it one step at a time and implement. Let's say do that and then and then what's next? Well, you know, increasing the physique, fixing up the coloring, like giving yourself like the proper undertones. I mean, like giving you like a lux maxing protocol, I could sit here for four hours, you know what I mean?

• 58:24Graham Stephan?

  Oh, it's that bad?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  He needs to shopping bag a lot more. No, it's not that it's that bad. Like everyone can improve. Like I could generally sit and do a seminar, like talking about lux maxing for like hours on end. Like there's really no limit to how long we could talk about it.

• 58:40Graham Stephan?

  And what would you do with Jack?

• 58:41Speaker 02

  I would, I would say that in principle, it's like very similar for like a lot of people. It's just like the only difference for lux maxing would be like, maybe there's specific things, person to person, like, you know, perfecting the phenotype. So, um, you know, once again, it would just really take too long to, uh, like go into like each individual.

• 59:06Graham Stephan?

  If there's like three things on Jack, three things on me, you're like, these three things would get you the biggest benefit.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  Okay. Yeah. So, um, both of you, you more so could certainly benefit from like, you know, taking things like carotenoids because you really lack like their reddish like undertones. That's like a health indicator that indicates like proper blood flow. Um, would be certainly something that's good, like a carotene blend, you could usually buy those on.

• 59:33Graham Stephan?

  So what's that do? Just make me look a little lively or less like a vampire?

• 59:37Speaker 02

  Like a little bit healthier, like it basically like frauds, like good blood circulation, like a lycopene, as the xanthin. Um, you've probably heard of like, you know, undertones, carotenoids, no? Like eating sweets.

• 59:49Graham Stephan?

  No.

• 59:50Speaker 02

  Eating like different fruits, like induce different colors. You've never heard about this?

• 59:55Graham Stephan?

  Never.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Okay. Well, yeah. So you could either do, do that from foods or just taking supplements all over the counter. That's like soft max normie stuff.

• 1:00:02Graham Stephan?

  Okay.

• 1:00:03Speaker 02

  I would advocate for minoxidil, um, certainly to grow back your hair. And, um, definitely like a double jaw surgery would be a good place to start for you. And, um, for Jack, I would say that, uh, the melanotan peptide would be really good. Um, you know, maybe depending on your masseter setness. I tell people like if you've got a super high set masseter, don't take this advice. But if your masseter is lower set in your jaw and you know, what you want to do is chew because it's going to increase your bigonial width. But that's just like a case dependent thing. So you kind of have to see like where your masseter sits on your ramus to determine whether or not that'll work. Uh, it's possible that that would be something that could ascend you quite significantly.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  And, um, I don't know how.

• 1:00:50Jack Selby?

  Your hairline check?

• 1:00:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, oh, yeah, no, quite good, actually. So.

• 1:00:54Jack Selby?

  See, as, as a white guy, I know we already have like naturally you're going to have a bit of a V.

• 1:00:59Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, no, you have a perfect hairline. Yeah, okay. And the, the next thing that you could do, um, I don't know how, how old you guys are. I'm 35.

• 1:01:08Jack Selby?

  Take a guess, how old am I?

• 1:01:09Speaker 02

  Oh, I should have had you guess, damn. Are, are you, you're probably over your thirties or around, no?

• 1:01:15Jack Selby?

  I'm 27.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  27, okay. Um, so what I would do for, um, like the under eyes usually the first thing to start to go because the way that works is you, you know, facial fat redistributes down your face and starts to migrate with gravity. Uh, so under eye concealer is like a good way to like, you know, kind of slap a Band-Aid on the solution. No one's going to know that you're fucking doing it. So, uh, all actors, celebrities are doing this anyway. So that, that's like another good soft max. Those are just three, like, you know, quick, easy soft maxes.

• 1:01:45Jack Selby?

  I appreciate that. I think that those were the things I would probably do for myself as well. I think these are pretty egregious. Graham and I both have pretty bad eye bags.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  What do you think about Botox? Uh, I'm a big fan of Botox, but people go about it wrong. It's not something that you could do after you've already achieved or, or after you already aged and, you know, accumulated wrinkles. It's a preventative measure because the wrinkles occur as you express your face. So it's about preventing that. Have you done Botox at all? Yeah, I've done Botox. Yeah, just, just one time, but it's just, uh, um, at a med spa and then I've, I've done it myself, uh, a few times after that. But it's just, it's very difficult to maintain. It was expensive, um, at the time and it's just like a time burden like that I don't necessarily have. Like I'm not really that expressive anyway, so it doesn't really matter for me. What about sun damage? Just like wearing sunscreen outside?

• 1:02:37Speaker 02

  Yes, so American sunscreen is SPF, right? But SPF only protects you against UVB rays. Whereas the UVA is actually one of the most aging rays as well. So you need SPF with PA++, which is another mechanism of protection. It's typically found in like Korean sunscreen brands. That's why they generally age better than us, you know, white boys. So, you know, going with proper sunscreen is is another thing that you could do that really will make sure you age quite better than your average person. Do you ever worry that someone might follow your advice and maybe hurt themselves?

• 1:03:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's why I'm very careful, like advocate for some of the more intensive looks maxes, unless they're either under direct supervision or have done the research to have a fully comprehensive grasp. Like, sometimes like I'll talk to viewers and do like viewer segments on Discord and people will start asking me about like tests. I'll be like, I could tell right away, I'm like, you haven't done your research. So I don't tell people to jump the gun and just like go around haphazardly promoting people to take exogenous hormones. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's it's very difficult because, you know, you could say that and people could still take your advice.

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  But at the end of the day, I still just want to be able to be open and honest with what I'm doing.

• 1:04:06Speaker 02

  So unfortunately, that's kind of a tricky thing to navigate. Yeah, what was going on? I saw a clip on Twitter of you, some girl on stream. Yeah, those were lipolysis agents, so called Aquilux, right? It's a fat dissolver and we were like doing localized lipolysis, essentially. Why? Because we're going for more facial leanness, killing fat cells. Are you qualified to? Somebody like that?

• 1:04:37Speaker 02

  Well, I'm not like a nurse PA, if that's what you're asking. But what makes someone qualified to something that's got essentially no risk profile? You know, I would say that this might be a little bit egotistical, but I would say I'm probably much more qualified than your average PA who's doing it. You know? I would say that they really don't have a comprehensive understanding of what the they're doing at all.

• 1:05:01Graham Stephan?

  Now, really quick, let's be honest. A lot of the big phone carriers these days are stuck in the past. I mean, let's face it, a hundred dollars a month for a phone service that barely changes during a time when people are saving for the holidays? It's insane.

• 1:05:14Jack Selby?

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• 1:05:24Graham Stephan?

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• 1:05:51Jack Selby?

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• 1:06:13Graham Stephan?

  So stop overpaying for phone service. Click the link down below in the description to get started today and download the Helium Mobile app for iOS or Android. Enjoy. Now, when Jack and I first started the Ace Coffee Hour, we had to figure out everything ourselves, from the best cameras to use, the best editing equipment, how to get guests. Every day was a new challenge. That's why if you're thinking about starting or growing a business, but you find yourself saying, oh, I'm just going to start that next year, our sponsor Shopify is the best way to get moving.

• 1:06:42Jack Selby?

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• 1:06:53Graham Stephan?

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• 1:07:13Graham Stephan?

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• 1:07:23Jack Selby?

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• 1:07:35Graham Stephan?

  So sign up for your $1 a month trial at Shopify.com/ICH. Again, that is Shopify.com/ICH with the link down below in the description to get started today. Enjoy. So we previously had Greg Doucet on the podcast.

• 1:07:51Speaker 02

  Oh, geez.

• 1:07:52Graham Stephan?

  He sent over a few questions he wanted to ask.

• 1:07:55Speaker 04

  Claviculum, I thought you were all about looks maxing. Why are you wearing a Burberry belt while training at the gym?

• 1:08:02Speaker 02

  When did I do that? Oh, I, oh, actually, I do remember. Why am I wearing a Burberry belt while training at the gym? Dude, I, I believe I did that on a live stream. We were just like trying on like some new young LA clothes and like they didn't fit my waist. I had to belt max, so that was pretty cringe. Cause they were, you know, kind of getting on me for not like, you know, doing the milestones of wearing the clothes. So I had a, that was like a last minute thing.

• 1:08:29Jack Selby?

  Okay, here's the next one.

• 1:08:30Speaker 04

  What part of looks maxing involves losing 15 pounds of muscle from avoiding going to the gym while sniffing creatine? Answer me that.

• 1:08:40Speaker 02

  Dude, well, I mean, people don't understand the content grind. Like, I've been, you know, all over the place, like, traveling, um, you know, grinding my ass off, trying to, uh, you know, keep my momentum going. So, that's absolutely not looks-maxing. I've been looks-mining. I've been actually looking, like, worse and worse, like, as I started streaming. Like, I didn't sleep, like, last night, really. I was, I was just streaming all night. So, a lot of what I've been doing recently is not, like, what I should be.

• 1:09:09Jack Selby?

  So is it safe to say now that looks-maxing is not your north star?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  I would say that, like, right now, uh, I'm still following the same general principles, but I'm just not doing, like, everything I should be, necessarily. Like, I'm, I'm trying, I'm maintaining, like, my leanness. Like, I'm doing all, like, the key things that are the most important, but I'm just not taking it, like, that step further, like, with, you know, going to the gym every day, uh, like, either was, would be. So, uh, yeah, I guess you could say that, like, content has kinda taken over for, like, the time being, but I'm, I'm gonna get back into, like, the swing of things.

• 1:09:41Jack Selby?

  So if looks-maxing is not your priority anymore, what would you say is?

• 1:09:45Speaker 02

  Content.

• 1:09:46Jack Selby?

  Content.

• 1:09:46Speaker 02

  Streaming.

• 1:09:47Jack Selby?

  Content for the reason of what?

• 1:09:48Speaker 02

  It's just something that I'm doing, but I, I would say that it's not really just, like, looks-maxing was just, like, the end-all, be-all. And now, maybe, like, it's just par, on par with, with content now, but I, I still prioritize both of them, the best, to the best of my abilities, but it's just very difficult. And the way that I think about it, it's like, okay, well, I have to really grind for, like, and take advantage of the opportunity I had. But right now, things are, like, getting a little easier. Like, um, I'm organized now. I have my team, so I have a little bit more time, so I'll certainly be getting back into the gym. So, taking, like, um, a little hiatus from, like, working out and being, like, a hundred percent on top of things, like, that, that happens, you know?

• 1:10:29Jack Selby?

  Go one last question for you.

• 1:10:31Speaker 04

  Clavicular. Have you ever taken your blood work? And if so, I challenge you to send it to me to see if you're healthy. If you're ascending, we want proof that you're healthy. If you haven't got your blood work done, get it done from Algorix. I'll make a video about it and show the world just how unhealthy you really are.

• 1:10:52Speaker 02

  Um, I, yeah, I'd be fully down to do that. I haven't done blood work in a little while, so I don't have something that's like up to date enough with what I've been doing. Um, but yeah, I mean, I did like a, a simple panel, um, like a few months ago, I, I guess we could send that over to him, but I'll, I'll, I'd be down to do a more updated one, but I don't think Coach Greg really knows like what exactly I'm doing. I think he probably thinks it's worse than it is, but we do like similar, uh, protocols. Like we're both on testosterone, like we're both on GLP-1s. Like I don't, I, I, you know, and he does the same thing. I think he thinks I'm like a new Togi figure who's like blasting like grams of gear. It's just simply not true.

• 1:11:37Jack Selby?

  What do you think of Greg Doucet?

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  I think he's a jester and I think he's disingenuous about a lot of what he does because think about it, right? He ascended and became an IFBB pro from doing, right? He achieved his result. He, uh, you know, got a great physique. And then now he does the content and he had tributes to coplaments, like cope supplements is what I like to call it. So that just seems a little bit unfair. Um, to, to, you know, send your viewers down the path of like these random like nonsense, like pills that don't do anything rather than like what actually gave you your results. Whereas I'm similarly just being honest about it. I'm like, okay, it was testosterone that got me here, not, you know, egg testosterone or whatever.

• 1:12:21Jack Selby?

  Yeah, I can't really speak to the efficacy of like turkestrone or whatever, you know, pills or supplements he has. Um, but I do generally agree with the sentiment he shared, at least when he was on our show, which is like specific exercises, workout routines and just eating, eating healthy. I know he has a cookbook, which is totally fine too. I mean, if you obey the recipes that are in the cookbook, I do think that it will have a positive impact on your physique.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's not really as much about food selection as it is about macronutrients. Um, so I think if he was like fully honest about like a lot of this stuff, it just would take a lot of, you know, market share off the table, which is why, and it's like, dude, I get it. It's like you're an influencer, make your bag, but I just don't really like, and I would never like have even said anything had he not like called me out and like fell over me. Um, so I'm, I'm very okay with now being like, okay, this is like exactly what he's doing. It's just a, a marketing tactic. Like he'll, He'll attribute his results to garbage a lot of times and I don't think it's right.

• 1:13:24Jack Selby?

  What do you think about Togi?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  I think Togi is, uh, is really funny. I think he's a great content creator. And he rage baited people. I don't think Togi is nearly as like unhealthy or just reckless as he makes it seem on his content. I think he's like pretty intentional and diligent about like his protocols. Like I've talked to like his coaches and stuff. It's really not that over the top, any of the stuff that he does. Um, I would say that the reason his blood work was really bad and like the coach Greg reviews was wrecked. So that's the one thing that you can't really do. And that's what I try to avoid is like wrecked. At the same time could be extremely unhealthy.

• 1:14:04Graham Stephan?

  Now, if content right now is your north star temporarily, I'm assuming that's because you're doing well at it and therefore you're making a decent amount of money. And then social media could be somewhat fleeting. And so you have a small little window to make the most of it. How much of looks maxing are things like? A good watch, a car, a house. How much does this bring you up?

• 1:14:29Speaker 02

  It's not, nothing to do with looks maxing. It's just a different, just a different measurement. That's would be more like status or that. I would say that there's like the looks, money, status, like triad. Um, and that would just fall into those other categories.

• 1:14:44Jack Selby?

  But aren't you looks macking, looks maxing for the sake of like making your life better? And so wouldn't the quality of your life not only be determined by looks maxing, but also like status maxing?

• 1:14:55Speaker 02

  Of course, yeah, no.

• 1:14:56Graham Stephan?

  But appearance too. Like if you walk in with a Richard Mill, I would say people would rate you overall more attractive than an Apple watch.

• 1:15:04Speaker 02

  That's a pretty shit selection.

• 1:15:05Jack Selby?

  I think they would serve you more respect.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, no, absolutely. But.

• 1:15:09Jack Selby?

  Which isn't that why your looks maxing is like the halo effect. It's the status. It's the.

• 1:15:12Speaker 02

  Absolutely. But I'm, I'm not sitting here like looks are the end all be all. Like it's the easiest thing to jump. And a huge increase in percentiles, but um, of course, like yes, go and status max, go and get the nice car, get the nice house. I'm absolutely in agreement with you. Like there's no, there's no point of contention there. So I would just say that the Richard Mill thing is comical. I think Richard Mills are pretty.

• 1:15:38Graham Stephan?

  But what about driving like a really nice Ferrari? Or like getting a great car?

• 1:15:44Speaker 02

  I would say that there is no one on this podcast that can actually afford, or no one watching this, that could afford a Ferrari. I think there's people who can buy a Ferrari.

• 1:15:55Graham Stephan?

  I would disagree on this podcast. I would say at least 10% of the people watching could buy a Ferrari.

• 1:16:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, that's what I'm saying. They could buy a Ferrari, but they can't like afford a Ferrari.

• 1:16:05Graham Stephan?

  Oh, no, they could afford a Ferrari. We have a very educated, business-oriented audience. You would be surprised right now.

• 1:16:13Jack Selby?

  I don't know if I would say 10%.

• 1:16:14Graham Stephan?

  Oh, I would say 10%. The people who come to us afterwards who watch the podcast, I am blown away.

• 1:16:19Speaker 02

  10% of them could afford.

• 1:16:21Graham Stephan?

  I am blown away.

• 1:16:22Speaker 02

  And have it be like a good idea to buy like a million dollar car.

• 1:16:25Graham Stephan?

  I wouldn't say a good idea, but I would fit for it.

• 1:16:27Speaker 02

  They could buy it, but they can't afford it.

• 1:16:29Graham Stephan?

  Oh, no, they could afford it. I don't, I just don't think it's a good idea for everyone to buy a Ferrari, but.

• 1:16:33Speaker 02

  Well, regardless, like, there's, there's almost, there's not a lot of people, regardless of 10%, 5%, who can actually like get this car and have it be like a good idea until they're like into their 40s. I think that you could make a much larger return taking that money and investing it into a plethora of different things. Like, I don't think that having supercars and flexing them is really going to elevate you as much as people think it is. And for like how much you could be putting other things at a standstill. I think you could be advancing yourself, taking that, that money and investing it much differently would be a much better idea.

• 1:17:13Graham Stephan?

  See, I think in certain situations, actually, a nice car could take you a very long way. Like, it really depends on how you use the car and what circles that gets you in.

• 1:17:25Speaker 02

  Well, I'm gonna speak, you know, from my perspective that when people drive like supercars, like I would never like really do business with them. Like, if I see like a 20-year-old kid. Pull up in a Ferrari. I'm like, this is either rented or it's just financial irresponsibility. So I'm like, nope. You know what I mean? Until you're like 30 years old, there's no, there's no shot you can like have a Ferrari and have it be a good idea.

• 1:17:55Jack Selby?

  So your, your goal isn't necessarily looks maxing then? It seems like it's still sort of like status.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  It's all of them. They're not mutually exclusive once again. And I don't know why like people make that mistake so frequently that looks is just like the key part that was missing from the manosphere conversation. But all of the other stuff is generally true.

• 1:18:21Jack Selby?

  But wouldn't you say though, that you could maximize your status, your aesthetics? Just your overall respect, maybe that you get if you spent, say, a hundred percent of your income on super nice clothes, watches, cars, a penthouse? Like you would technically ascend even higher to get access into better groups.

• 1:18:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. No, you, that, you're absolutely right about that. I just don't think it's necessarily like a responsible idea. I think that a lot of people in Miami are, you know, like exactly what you said, spending a hundred percent of their income, having no savings at all. They're, they're really not advancing themselves. Just to basically flex on people. It's like a lot of flex culture and I don't think that's good at all. You know, I, I usually know for a fact that these people aren't actually making the money that they claim. And the whole thing is just like, uh, sort of for, for show. And I think women kind of like realize this, like they know if you're, if you're moving well or not. And it's not going to be a car.

• 1:19:26Jack Selby?

  Speaking of women knowing, what about them wearing makeup? And wearing shoulder pads or lifts, lifts? These are all things that women could know, they could find out. I mean, they're the ones wearing makeup. They could probably detect makeup on a man's face. Yet this is something that you would advocate for. All three of those things.

• 1:19:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, but no, I mean, there's, it's not the hardest thing in the world to kind of skate by. You know, I would say that, you know, it's, it's probably on par with all these things that you're saying about like, you know, penthouses and Ferraris. It's like, I, I just don't think that that's necessarily a good idea to blow through like, you know, maybe a quarter million dollars a year renting out like a penthouse in Miami. Like, that doesn't really sound like a good idea to me.

• 1:20:14Jack Selby?

  But then what about these other things like makeup and shoulder pads and lifts? Like, you still, you like those, is that correct? Or is that?

• 1:20:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that there's, there's use cases for them.

• 1:20:23Jack Selby?

  Do you think that it's like you're playing a dangerous game there?

• 1:20:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, but the ROI I would say is pretty good, you know?

• 1:20:31Jack Selby?

  Which one would you say is highest with? Makeup?

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:35Jack Selby?

  So what do you do if a girl says, hey, are you wearing makeup?

• 1:20:38Speaker 02

  I don't think that would ever happen unless you're just like egregiously over the top with what you're doing.

• 1:20:43Jack Selby?

  But let's just say in this hypothetical situation, a girl comes up to you, wow, you did a really good job concealing your eye bags.

• 1:20:50Speaker 00

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• 1:21:46Speaker 02

  Then you you just say thank you, just don't, you know, spike your cortisol and then do a better job. So it's more undetectable next time, you know? I I know other looksmakers who have gotten like called out on shit. Uh, like maybe you go to a bar, you sweat and it like leaks down your face, but it's just a skill issue at the end of the day, you know?

• 1:22:04Jack Selby?

  Are you wearing any makeup right now?

• 1:22:05Speaker 02

  No, not right now. We uh, we're a little bit late to the podcast, but uh, no, usually I I would would be fine doing that though.

• 1:22:14Jack Selby?

  So what is the worst possible thing to get caught with as a guy?

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  A hair system.

• 1:22:20Jack Selby?

  So that is like.

• 1:22:21Graham Stephan?

  Like a toupee we're talking.

• 1:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, like if you get caught like wearing like a a toupee and like it's over, like it's generally like finished like entirely.

• 1:22:28Graham Stephan?

  Have you seen that happen?

• 1:22:30Speaker 02

  No, no, I've never seen that happen.

• 1:22:31Jack Selby?

  But there's no recovery from.

• 1:22:33Speaker 02

  Nope. It's done. It's just.

• 1:22:35Graham Stephan?

  You just have to move on.

• 1:22:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:22:37Jack Selby?

  So what do you advise to people out there that are wearing hair systems?

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  Just be like a professional and not getting caught. I don't know.

• 1:22:45Graham Stephan?

  Wouldn't it be better just to shave the head? What do you think about just like shaved heads?

• 1:22:49Speaker 02

  I don't think so. I don't think so at all. I think the hair system's a good idea. Just know that if you ever like get caught, you're gonna have to like move to a different country.

• 1:22:58Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, but what about like Jason Statham? Like just looks great with a shaved head.

• 1:23:01Speaker 02

  Well, he's got a top percentile face, right? Of course he looks great with a shaved head.

• 1:23:04Graham Stephan?

  The Rock. The Rock looks great with a shaved head.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  Great faces. It's like, but they would look better with uh, like actually hair, you know? So like, of course, a good looking people look good with, you know, shaved heads, but they would look better with without.

• 1:23:18Graham Stephan?

  Do you think that you're misunderstood?

• 1:23:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:23:21Graham Stephan?

  And what do you think most people get wrong about you?

• 1:23:23Speaker 02

  I think people think I'm just like impulsive and don't really know what I'm doing, but I'm very meticulous and intentional.

• 1:23:31Jack Selby?

  I could see that you're very calculated with everything in life, which is hard to juxtapose with like the usage and stuff like that. Just because ninety nine point nine percent of people would consider anybody that touches any of that stuff maximally impulsive.

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:46Jack Selby?

  But you could be the very, very far edge case exception of those things.

• 1:23:53Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:53Jack Selby?

  Which is interesting to talk about, but also just in application, just so, in my opinion, dangerous.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. No, I I absolutely agree. That's why I say like, do not take semelons, not try to copy what I'm doing, you know?

• 1:24:07Graham Stephan?

  What do you think is a criticism about you that's valid?

• 1:24:10Speaker 02

  Maybe that I I could be like a little bit. Cold sometimes or like maybe just sometimes like I'll be mean or something like on on live streams I could be like a little bit more respectful and have like more humility I guess you could say um so people and you know that that's that's probably about about it and you know sometimes I get criticized for making like jokes about like a serious situations like um you know like I've made jokes about like Palestine and stuff like that but I don't and that criticism

• 1:24:51Speaker 02

  it's like yeah like I get like it's terrible but um it's just like that that's just the humor it's just I I mean no disrespect like in in action with with what I'm saying I just like to be able to make whatever jokes I want to make without any restriction or TOS violations.

• 1:25:09Jack Selby?

  It's interesting because most people that I meet that are your age have a lot more like seemingly energy and like more upbeat and expressive but you I noticed you're very like monit- not monotone but like very calm and I noticed even in a comment on your podcast with Brad Martin like had like 50 likes so it wasn't necessarily unpopular was like monotone clav is that something that you try to be to you know come across a little bit more calm and low cortisol or is it who you truly are?

• 1:25:43Speaker 02

  Nice acknowledgement yeah no that's um that's who I am I'm a very like level headed like low cortisol person and when I'm trying to deliver my message in a serious context this is the tonality that I I take right this is my long form um podcast stuff but obviously when I'm doing like an uh you know very casual setting like desktop stream or I'm streaming IRL maybe the energy will be a little bit different a lot of the times because I'm like Hyped off off some stimulant or something, or whatever the case may be. But yeah, no, if I wanna, if I wanna be serious and like have a conversation getting down to like the brass tacks of like my ideology, of course, you know, this is the tone I take.

• 1:26:28Jack Selby?

  What do you see to the people who say it's an unattractive trait to focus on being attractive?

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  Well, you always have to conceal your intentions with looks maxing, right? Don't go around like me, obviously, I'm a public figure, so everyone knows what I do. Everyone knows that I hit myself in the face with a hammer. But as long as you're just not running around telling people, no one's gonna know. So it doesn't really matter.

• 1:26:52Jack Selby?

  Does that make permanent, is that a permanent solution?

• 1:26:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:56Jack Selby?

  To grow the, it's like the zygomatic endurance or whatever it is?

• 1:27:00Speaker 02

  Zygomatic bones.

• 1:27:02Jack Selby?

  Zygomatic bones?

• 1:27:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:27:03Jack Selby?

  So it's these bones right here?

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:27:05Jack Selby?

  Wolf's law, I like, we did a lot of research going into this. So you basically state that if you, similar to an MMA person's shins, if you continually micro fracture, it will grow back stronger and larger.

• 1:27:16Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:27:17Jack Selby?

  And so it's an attractive trait to have these protruding more.

• 1:27:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, more prominent.

• 1:27:21Jack Selby?

  And so that's something that you have done and you've noticed permanent.

• 1:27:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:27:26Jack Selby?

  Growth of those bones.

• 1:27:28Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:27:28Graham Stephan?

  Don't you think that could just be puberty, though? That you're like still developing your face through the next like five years?

• 1:27:35Speaker 02

  I bone smash after puberty.

• 1:27:36Jack Selby?

  See, I just don't even like that, that term, bone smash. It's like so, it's so grotesque. And honestly, for me, it's like.

• 1:27:44Speaker 02

  It's really funny.

• 1:27:44Jack Selby?

  I just, I just wouldn't be able to do it. I, I wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want my son doing it. Like, I wouldn't want any of the viewers doing it. It's just so like, ah.

• 1:27:54Graham Stephan?

  If Jack started doing this, I would prompt you to go to therapy.

• 1:27:58Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:58Graham Stephan?

  That would be my first thing.

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  It's extremely comical, bone smashing, yeah, I just like the name. Now that you pointed that out, yeah, that is actually really funny.

• 1:28:07Jack Selby?

  But I I don't know, like, like, do you hope more people bone smash? What is the the goal?

• 1:28:13Speaker 02

  As long as there's no, like, issues of head trauma, like, if you properly brace your skull, I mean, it's not the worst thing in the world. It's pretty low risk.

• 1:28:21Graham Stephan?

  Have you gone to therapy or has anyone suggested that you try therapy before doing some of these things?

• 1:28:26Speaker 02

  No, that's that's never been something that's been necessary.

• 1:28:30Graham Stephan?

  I would love to do an introduction, if you would like to, with Dr. K.

• 1:28:34Jack Selby?

  Yeah. Do you know who Dr. K is?

• 1:28:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:37Graham Stephan?

  Healthy gamer.

• 1:28:37Jack Selby?

  Would you speak to him?

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would speak to any anyone, but I don't really think my psychological well being has ever been like an issue of mine. Like, I'd say that, yeah, well, I may be neurodivergent. Like, I'd say that's probably one of my strong suits and what makes me like able to succeed as a person.

• 1:28:54Graham Stephan?

  Well, I would I would agree with you on that.

• 1:28:58Graham Stephan?

  Would you say that being neurodivergent just makes you focus on one thing and wanting to just do that thing and dive 100% into that?

• 1:29:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I would say that's probably one of the main reasons why I am the way I am.

• 1:29:10Graham Stephan?

  And it just happened for you to be looks maxing?

• 1:29:13Speaker 02

  Correct. And before that, it was like, there was like a lot of political stuff. And I would say I was fanatical about that. And then it just segued into looks maxing.

• 1:29:25Graham Stephan?

  I tend to think I gotta be a little on the spectrum for something, because a while ago, I used to be really into reef aquariums as a kid, and I got super into that. And then it was, I got super into doing real estate.

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:29:38Graham Stephan?

  And then I got super into doing YouTube, and it's always like these different things that shift over time. And then I just, all I want to do is that thing. Lasts about 10 years, and then I find some new thing. I'm like, I'm gonna get really good at that. Do you think that maybe you'll start to fixate on something else?

• 1:29:54Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, after I've achieved like my desired results, and it just becomes like a thing of maintenance to looks max, like, yeah, but that was always my intention was, my intention is not to look max for the rest of my life. It's to leverage my increase in looks for whatever I decide to do.

• 1:30:10Graham Stephan?

  Again, I would go back to it's less about. Because you will, as you said, what was the term, ascent, right? You're going to ascend a hundred percent. I would say that's less to do with your looks and more to do with you getting out on social media, doing extreme things that pushing you into a new category, getting a lot of views, a lot of money, which will then give you more opportunities, but I don't think it's the looks itself.

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  You know, that's just something that we're never necessarily going to be able to.

• 1:30:38Graham Stephan?

  So for you, it'll be because of your looks, the better looking you will be, the more money you make, the more status you have, and that's due to the looks and not the content strategy.

• 1:30:48Speaker 02

  Well, no, that, I mean, both are true. Like, it's a little bit of, of everything. If we were to put like a pie chart together of how exactly that would look like looks, like personality, like content, uh, drive or motivation. I don't exactly know how I would scale that up, but I would say that it's definitely a factor. So it's, it's worth acknowledging regardless of, if sixty percent of, of the pie, fifty percent, whatever.

• 1:31:15Graham Stephan?

  What do you think is more important to get women? Do you think it's status, money, or looks?

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Looks, absolutely, without a question.

• 1:31:22Graham Stephan?

  More than status?

• 1:31:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, this is, but that's like another thing where it's like, okay, well, how good looking are you? Are you like professional actor level status? It's like that, that's why that question like often it gets taken out of context and doesn't really make a lot of sense. Be, but if we're talking about like, okay, we're eightieth percentile in looks, money, status, which metric is going to drive us the results that we're actually looking for? It's going to be the looks, right? Whereas if you're like, you know, ten million followers on Instagram, you know, but you're not necessarily good looking, you might be able to beat out a guy who's better looking than you, um, and, you know, less status.

• 1:32:01Graham Stephan?

  Would you say that you are good with women?

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  I like to hold myself to high standards, so I'd say there's definitely room for improvement, but I'd say I, I do very well for myself.

• 1:32:10Graham Stephan?

  How would you improve?

• 1:32:12Speaker 02

  A lot of the stuff with women is not how interesting you are at all, right? It's more like just psychological like tactics, like manipulating women, really. It's like a big part of it. So, you know, you don't necessarily have to be like this well-traveled guy able to talk about like his experience in Tokyo. You just need to know about like how to spike different, you know, neurotransmitters in women and how to, you know, keep their dopamine going, like, like that.

• 1:32:42Jack Selby?

  Is that a good or a bad way to attract a woman, though?

• 1:32:45Speaker 02

  It's the way to do it, whether it's good or bad, like morally good or morally bad. It's like, I don't really know, but the, the goal is to get women. It's not necessarily like about me, moral, you know?

• 1:32:57Graham Stephan?

  See, I've seen some of your streams and I haven't seen any of those manipulation tactics. The only things that I've seen from you that seem to work is that you're very forward and that you'll just say what's on your mind, which might have a better result than the tactics. Unless that is the tactic.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  Well, that's just, that's trolling on a stream, you know? That's not really like a fair like way to show. And especially when like the camera rig that I use and like there, there's like 10 lights coming off, there's mics, it's like ridiculous. So women are not acting the way that they otherwise would be if I were talking to them in like an off-camera context. Like the camera makes it a lot harder because like women like wanna like clout chase, like look at me. Like I see a lot of chicks on TikTok do this. It's like, um, I, I went to this house party where there was like literally multiple girls that I had, you know, slept with previously, who wanna be like performative for the camera, like, oh, I rejected Klav, you know? So it's like, okay, bitch, like, you know?

• 1:33:59Jack Selby?

  But that's still just, I, I like to think that that is like just the Miami crowd. I think that like the behavior will be different depending on where you're at. Quite substantially, like I can't imagine.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  You're not wrong.

• 1:34:12Jack Selby?

  And you're also going not only. You're not, you're not only in Miami, but you're also going to house parties in Miami with influencers and with people that speak a certain way, act a certain way. So that's kind of like fringe behavior.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're not wrong. I mean, but once again, I wouldn't exactly like say that what I'm doing or what I'm talking about is what I recommend people do, like the way that they talk to women. It's just I'm going for stream clips, you know? So it's not really even worth acknowledging that.

• 1:34:41Jack Selby?

  How much do you consider morals with what you do and preach online?

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  I'm like an ends justify the means. Sorry, the means. You know what I mean? So I don't necessarily care too much about like what I need to do to accomplish a result. If that's what you're asking.

• 1:35:01Jack Selby?

  So you're objective oriented and you don't necessarily care if what you're doing is right or if it's wrong.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  Uh huh. Correct.

• 1:35:10Jack Selby?

  Have you ever been in love?

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Um, that's hard to say. I don't really know. I'd have to think about that a little bit. It's a tough one.

• 1:35:21Jack Selby?

  What would you rate your happiness out of 10?

• 1:35:25Speaker 02

  I wouldn't really rate it. I think that it's just like a silly.

• 1:35:29Jack Selby?

  I disagree.

• 1:35:30Speaker 02

  Being like happy?

• 1:35:31Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  I think that's extremely silly.

• 1:35:35Jack Selby?

  Why?

• 1:35:36Speaker 02

  Cause it's like the thing that I prioritize is like being driven, having like a purpose, being ambitious. It's like the, you know, not a lot of the things that I do on a day to day basis are like the most enjoyable. Like, you know, doing work isn't enjoyable a lot of the times. Um, but it's just something that like needs to be done. Like going to the gym, it's not like an enjoyable thing for me, but I do it anyway. So I have like no regard for like my happiness. Like that seems like a very like. Immature idea.

• 1:36:09Jack Selby?

  Why is that immature?

• 1:36:11Speaker 02

  To prioritize like being happy.

• 1:36:13Jack Selby?

  I'm not saying that you can, that you need to prioritize it to assess it, but you can still assess it without it necessarily being a priority.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  But it's just like happiness as an idea, like men are like supposed to be like happy. I don't really think.

• 1:36:24Jack Selby?

  Why are men not supposed to be happy?

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  Because life is hard and.

• 1:36:28Jack Selby?

  Can't you enjoy difficult things?

• 1:36:30Speaker 02

  Not if you want to succeed to the highest level that you possibly could.

• 1:36:34Jack Selby?

  Does a man need to succeed to the highest level that he can?

• 1:36:37Speaker 02

  No, they don't need to do anything, but I certainly want to.

• 1:36:40Jack Selby?

  But if you want to, so you know where your happiness lies if you were to assess it? What would you rate it out of 10? I think that it's a totally fine thing to measure people. Sure, you can go the philosophical route of like, why even, you know, are we discussing happiness? What is happiness? But you could chalk it up to joy. You could talk it up to enjoyment of life. You know, where would you say you are on a scale of one to 10?

• 1:37:01Speaker 02

  I would say that I'm pretty low. I mean, I don't, I don't sleep. I don't really do. I haven't like done anything outside of content for like months now. I don't even have time to go to the gym. So I would say that, you know, like my overall well being would certainly have taken a hit from like the content that I'm doing, but it's worth it. It's just like how, how it has to be, you know?

• 1:37:28Jack Selby?

  And so that reminds me, I know I'm not going to compare you and Elon Musk, but it reminds me of Elon when he says, I'm so mission oriented that, you know, or am I happy? Not necessarily, but I don't devote my life to, you know, happiness is not a priority of mine.

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. And I'd say that's like a very like neurodivergent mentality to have. And that's why I think that like a lot of, you know, successful people often, you know, are on the spectrum for autism and stuff like that is because they're capable of this. Like if I were to, you know, go and do something that like made me happy, like. Go play video games or, you know, just go do like gesture activities, go like bowling or something like that. Or go hang out with girls, go to bars, whatever the case may be. I would not be positioning myself in the most optimal way possible. So that would, and having that in the back of my head, that when I'm doing like things

• 1:38:28Speaker 02

  like that, I could better be using my time and prioritizing myself much better. I would not be able to enjoy anything.

• 1:38:35Jack Selby?

  I sort of disagree. I think if, and I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, if you're an influencer, I think being able to convey happiness, joy, like viewers like to have positive influences. They like to watch content and feel good about it, or at least feel something. And if you, if you can bring some sort of clear joy or happiness to your content, I do think that that could actually serve you, you know, business wise, like Togi, you know, all of the largest influencers like David Dobrik, you know, Mr. Beast. They all built their success off of kind of some sort of at least positive spin, like a happy thing instead of-

• 1:39:12Speaker 02

  There's an emotion to it.

• 1:39:14Jack Selby?

  There is an emotion to it. And don't you think that like that would come through in content if we're just talking entrepreneurially?

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  I think Mr. Beast is a textbook sociopath who as soon as the cameras turn off, from what I've heard, is just like a robot that has no-

• 1:39:30Jack Selby?

  I would disagree with that.

• 1:39:31Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, we've spent a lot of time with him. No cameras, no nothing. He loves what he does.

• 1:39:36Jack Selby?

  Yeah, he'll crack jokes. He'll be like-

• 1:39:37Graham Stephan?

  He is funny.

• 1:39:38Jack Selby?

  Yeah. And you could argue, oh, well, that's because he's around other influencers. He knows that they'll speak about him.

• 1:39:43Graham Stephan?

  No, we were playing like soccer with him after filming with him and just, and he was playing till like midnight and then went down and we were like reviewing Instagram reels and like he's-

• 1:39:55Jack Selby?

  We went to go film with him and then afterwards, he's like, hey, we're gonna all go play soccer at, you know, in the backyard of this house that he has, and it's got this big lot and he has these soccer goals set up and he invites all of his friends over and he's got a little shed with a bunch of cleats and he lets us wear his cleats and, you know, borrow some of his clothes. He was about having fun and just being positive.

• 1:40:15Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, there's a lot of stuff he's he's done for us that a hundred percent he didn't even need to do. Like, I would have been happy just getting an hour with him for a podcast.

• 1:40:23Speaker 02

  Well, the thing that I'll say is I've I've talked about like and identified a lot of like sociopathic behavior from influencers over the past year, and I've never been wrong, so.

• 1:40:36Graham Stephan?

  But you haven't met Mr. Beast.

• 1:40:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I haven't met a lot of these people that I've analyzed.

• 1:40:41Jack Selby?

  And how would you say you haven't been wrong if you haven't met them?

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  Well, I'm just, I'm saying, you know, right now, you know, I'm not a hundred percent sure that that I'm correct about Mr. Beast, but I'm saying that I've never been wrong before. And as I, you know, see more and learn more, and, you know, potentially get into the same spaces, I think I'll know for sure. But I really wouldn't be surprised if if I were correct on that, on Mr. Beast. But regardless, it doesn't really matter, because I actually do enjoy making the content. It's it's just all the backend stuff that's extremely draining. You know, it's not the content itself. I like being on a live stream, and I typically do enjoy it.

• 1:41:24Speaker 02

  But it's just like, you know, dealing with all the backend stuff is a nightmare, as you guys probably know.

• 1:41:31Graham Stephan?

  When's the last time you were sad?

• 1:41:34Speaker 02

  Last time I was sad, probably last year when I got expelled from school. And like, you know, my parents were like, had wanted nothing to do with me, was was kind of a rough one. I didn't really know what direction my life was going to take.

• 1:41:49Graham Stephan?

  Why'd you get expelled?

• 1:41:52Graham Stephan?

  How did they catch you?

• 1:41:54Speaker 02

  Someone sent in an anonymous tip into my university, and they came, I got back to my room, and there was just everywhere.

• 1:42:04Speaker 02

  You know, there was like the campus police, and I got booted out.

• 1:42:07Jack Selby?

  Why were you even in college in the first place? That seems kind of antithetical to you. It seems like less of a disagreeable person decision to go to college.

• 1:42:14Speaker 02

  Because it's just something people do, and I didn't have any direction in life at the time. You know, that's literally what college is in in the modern context, is just like, okay, you graduated high school, now you have to go to college. It's not like a pursuit of of higher intelligence or becoming a well-read person. It's just not what it is. College is a whole, it's a complete joke these days.

• 1:42:37Jack Selby?

  What would you say is your biggest insecurity?

• 1:42:42Speaker 02

  Wouldn't, wouldn't, I'm a very insecure person.

• 1:42:47Jack Selby?

  You don't have anything you're insecure about?

• 1:42:50Speaker 02

  Not really.

• 1:42:52Speaker 02

  I know that might come as a surprise, but just my, my thought process for everything is, is not the norm of my community of looks, Max. I'm coming from a place of pure objectivity and I'm just trying to improve a metric I know is valuable.

• 1:43:10Jack Selby?

  But even if it's not physical insecurity, it could be a mental insecurity, emotional insecurity.

• 1:43:17Speaker 02

  I mean, potentially, I wish I was more like socially adept, but that's like a very like small thing that doesn't really hold that much value in my life. Like, I'm unable to really resonate with like a lot of people.

• 1:43:37Speaker 02

  Like, for example, like, you know, the hobbies and interests of like your everyday person, I just find to be so ridiculous. Like, sports or, you know, like, watching movies. Like, I wish I could just like enjoy that kind of shit. But, I don't know, I've always hated like football so much and that was like a big thing that kind of made it hard for me to like fit in with people. Like, everyone goes, you know, to a bar on Saturday to watch football. But I'm like, I would literally rather do anything else, you know?

• 1:44:09Graham Stephan?

  I'm similar, I could relate to that. I don't get into sports unless I have money on the game.

• 1:44:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, that's.

• 1:44:14Graham Stephan?

  And then it's more about, I want to win that bet than it is about the game.

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 1:44:19Jack Selby?

  Do you think a man should ever cry?

• 1:44:21Speaker 02

  I think it happens. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I think people deal with immense loss a lot of the time. And that's just like a natural, that makes you human. It's almost worrying sometimes if like the loss you endure is great enough and you don't cry. That's probably like a worrying sign that you're like somewhat psychopathic or have like a, you know, a bit of trauma potentially. So it's, it's a very normal thing, as long as you don't make it like a residual cope for the rest of your life of like a relative dies. It's like, not acute reaction seems very reasonable to me, but as long as it doesn't hold you back, you know?

• 1:45:01Jack Selby?

  When's the last time you cried?

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  Probably like, you know, around like a year ago.

• 1:45:10Jack Selby?

  Had to do with expulsion?

• 1:45:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, just like not really knowing like what to do with myself kind of thing.

• 1:45:16Jack Selby?

  So if a viewer wants to know how to life max, what would you recommend?

• 1:45:21Speaker 02

  Viewer wants to know how to life max, I would say that

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  increasing your social skills by working in a restaurant for a lot of the young guys is one of the things that benefited me the most. Learning how to deal with figures of authority, whether that be your boss, learning how to deal with your peers who are your coworkers is an experience that you're going to learn at an early age. And simply being able to converse with, you know, a different clientele, whether you're a hostess, whether you're a server, all these different jobs really helped me increase my social skills quite a bit because I had to learn like body language when people actually didn't want to talk to me or, you know, picking up on cues like, hey, like, let's, let's make some small talk, which was something I was horrible at up until like,

• 1:46:11Speaker 02

  pretty much like earlier this year was when I kind of got my head on with that kind of stuff. So work in a restaurant, I would say shaped me and made me the person I am.

• 1:46:21Jack Selby?

  I would argue sales, just learning door to door sales.

• 1:46:24Speaker 02

  Dealing with rejection.

• 1:46:25Jack Selby?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  That's also, that's a similar concept.

• 1:46:28Jack Selby?

  It is.

• 1:46:28Speaker 02

  That's probably even better, right? But I don't think many people are going to be able to

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  jump straight into door to door sales. And you also lose like the dealing with figures of authority, like dealing with a boss and like, that kind of thing. And also just like being around people your age who are your coworkers is, is another good thing. Like it's a social thing. I really like working in a restaurant for, for young guys.

• 1:46:53Jack Selby?

  So in terms of your business, are you comfortable saying how much money you're making?

• 1:47:01Speaker 00

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• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  I mean, I'll just say what I make on streaming because I've said this before. Like probably like between like eighty to a hundred thousand dollars a month.

• 1:47:39Graham Stephan?

  Is that just from ad revenue while you're streaming? Or is that also from brand deals and sponsorships?

• 1:47:43Speaker 02

  No, that's from like donations like and what we call KCIP. So it's basically it would be like the Twitch equivalent of ad revenue, but they just pay the creators.

• 1:47:54Graham Stephan?

  What do your expenses look like?

• 1:47:56Speaker 02

  I reinvest all the money I have into just like technology. I don't pay any rent. I don't have a car payment. So basically my expenses would just be like food and anything that's content related. Like I'll usually have to pay for like security or different accommodations for doing IRL streams, things of that nature.

• 1:48:20Graham Stephan?

  Are you investing any of it?

• 1:48:21Speaker 02

  Not at the moment. You know, I was just talking to my accountant. We're just gonna wait like another six months before the 401k investing starts. I just really have no take home at the end of the month as.

• 1:48:33Graham Stephan?

  You're spending that much?

• 1:48:36Speaker 02

  Like, yeah, but I didn't really like start making money until like this month. So like, well, probably not spending that much like there's like obviously take home, but.

• 1:48:46Graham Stephan?

  I would argue you don't really need a 401k.

• 1:48:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:50Graham Stephan?

  To lock the money up for that long might not be in your best interest, given that you have a short burst. Probably have a lot of money coming in. It might be better just to open up a taxable account, do some in a 401k. But keep it mostly in a taxable index funds.

• 1:49:05Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, I mean.

• 1:49:06Graham Stephan?

  Diversified or maybe a Roth as you're young.

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I told him, I was just like, I don't even want to, I didn't like commit to doing it. I said, I don't even want to have that conversation for six months as it stands. But yeah, no, so just like basically been reinvesting everything. And I would say like another expense would be like, I recently just bought like a Sprinter van. For just like, you know, traveling and being able to have a computer setup on the go like and be able to stream. So that was like another thing that I spent a lot of capital on. Um, so you know, I, I, I'm not too well versed. I've been kinda just trying to incorporate and set up like, you know, all the different business entities, like to, you know, protect my assets

• 1:49:52Speaker 02

  and stuff like that has been a priority of mine. I haven't really dove too deep into like, you know, the whole Roth setup and all that. Just trying to get everything like legal and, and, you know, start dealing with taxes because this is the first year I'm gonna have to pay taxes, you know?

• 1:50:08Graham Stephan?

  Yeah, that will turn you real quick when you start to see how much they take in taxes. Maybe not this year because you're, you're spending so much money.

• 1:50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:50:16Graham Stephan?

  I bet your taxable is gonna be pretty little, but next year if you do well, man, that, that, uh, every, every quarter you start making those estimated payments, you see how much money is going away and it just gets you going. It just pisses you off.

• 1:50:31Speaker 02

  I'd say.

• 1:50:31Graham Stephan?

  And you wait, and it just evaporates.

• 1:50:33Jack Selby?

  It's a cortisol spike.

• 1:50:33Graham Stephan?

  It's a cortisol spike. That's what ages me so fast is you write these quarterly checks to the IRS and you say, where does the money go? And then, and then I start thinking all the things I could've done with that and it's gone.

• 1:50:44Speaker 02

  I don't really think I'm gonna owe more than like five figures of taxes this year. I'm not gonna even break six figures.

• 1:50:51Graham Stephan?

  Okay, well, well, count your blessings and then next year you're gonna start to get that cortisol spike. We're gonna start to see wrinkles forming all around here from the stress of paying taxes.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, I'm, I'm definitely gonna take a big hit, but there was a lot of write offs this year for sure.

• 1:51:05Jack Selby?

  This is a looks maxing tier list.

• 1:51:07Speaker 02

  Alright.

• 1:51:08Jack Selby?

  You put Accutane as an S?

• 1:51:10Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Yeah, one of the best.

• 1:51:12Jack Selby?

  I took Accutane.

• 1:51:13Speaker 02

  Um, let's do, I'm actually gonna put that B tier. I think that confidence and charisma, uh, largely is gonna be like genetic. It's not really something like that you could just do. You just either are or aren't. Um.

• 1:51:28Graham Stephan?

  So you can't improve charisma?

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  If, if you, if you don't. No, you can improve charisma, but it's largely going to be, you know, you're there charismatic or you're not. And the improvements that you could make are gonna be very marginal. Um, I did bone smashing is B tier. Color theory with clothing.

• 1:51:47Speaker 02

  Give that like a C. Decreasing body fat, it's gonna be an S tier thing. Eye contact, certainly gonna be context oriented, but it's definitely gonna be an important one for like more business setting stuff, but eyebrow grooming.

• 1:52:05Speaker 02

  Like, these are all good. Like, don't get me wrong. It's just like...

• 1:52:09Jack Selby?

  Comparatively.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. Hairstyle. Yeah. Hair transplant. Hair is life. And if you have no hair, you have no life.

• 1:52:19Speaker 02

  Makeup's certainly an A-tier looks max.

• 1:52:21Jack Selby?

  That's crazy that you put makeup so high.

• 1:52:23Graham Stephan?

  Wow.

• 1:52:24Speaker 02

  Mewing, let's give that like a C-tier. Once again, comparatively. Extremely necessary during development, you know. Micronutrients efficiency, C. Outside of puberty, not that important, especially acute deficiency. It's not going to matter that much. Money, certainly going to be an A-tier thing. Peptides are going to be...

• 1:52:48Speaker 02

  I'm going to put them B-tier. It's really just like reddish root tide and melanotan. All the rest are great. Rhinoplasties, S-tier. Shoulder pads, I like C-tier. They're not that good. Sleep quality, okay. Uh, that's going to be an A-tier as well. Keith Whitner, give that a C. The jam, give that an A. So I'd say that's, uh, that's my looks max tier list.

• 1:53:12Jack Selby?

  Clavicular, thank you so much for coming on the Iced Coffee Hour. It was really interesting. Uh, I feel like I learned a lot. I will not be going home and bone smashing, for the record.

• 1:53:23Graham Stephan?

  I might.

• 1:53:24Jack Selby?

  Graham might. He definitely needs a little bit more zygomatic growth, so... But anyways, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 1:53:31Graham Stephan?

  And happy birthday, by the way.

• 1:53:32Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys. Appreciate it.

• 1:53:33Graham Stephan?

  I appreciate you doing it on your birthday of all days, and the grind, the grind never stops.

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  It doesn't.

• 1:53:38Jack Selby?

  Thank you, guys, so much for watching. Till next time. See ya.

• 1:53:49Speaker 06

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