Jerrod Carmichael on Truth in Comedy, Coming Out Late & Religion

Kara Swisher sits down with Emmy-winning comedian Jerrod Carmichael for a raw and revealing conversation about truth, family, faith — and the art of standup. They dig into Carmichael’s work, including his deeply personal special “Rothaniel,” his genre-bending documentary “The Jerrod Carmichael Reality Show” (which he describes as a sitcom), and his latest special, “Don’t Be Gay.” The two of them talk about class in America, the fears that kept him closeted, the role of religion and spirituality in his life, and why standup must evolve or die. Plus, why he’s the son his mother deserves, what he’s learned from artists like Jay-Z and Spalding Gray, and why he wants to “remove hyphens” from his name and focus on stand-up comedy. Happy Pride — and happy listening. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  I do a lot of comics, and so I'm very excited to have you.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Who's been your favorite?

• 0:04Kara Swisher?

  Oh, don't do that to me.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  I'm competitive.

• 0:18Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Emmy Award-winning stand-up comedian, writer, and director Gerard Carmichael. Gerard has been making comedy for nearly 20 years. In 2014, his first stand-up special, Love at the Store, was directed by Spike Lee. From 2015 to 2017, he wrote, produced, and starred in the NBC sitcom The Carmichael Show. He has executive produced, directed, and acted in TV and film, including the Oscar-winning romp Poor Things. And despite having mined his personal life for comedy for all of those years, his 2022 HBO special, Rothaniel, was full of secrets he hadn't revealed before, his family's and his own, including that he's gay.

• 1:01Kara Swisher?

  It was stand-up as therapy, and it won him an Emmy. But Gerard didn't stop there. Last year, he came out with a Gerard Carmichael reality show, an eight-episode series documenting his attempts to come out to his friends, make peace with his father, and find common ground with his deeply religious Southern Baptist mother and her notions of heaven, hell, and unconditional love. It's also about trying to be in his first open relationship without falling back into those lies. It turns out to be harder than it looks. Gerard's latest stand-up special, Don't Be Gay, came out last month, and I thought it was fantastic. He's really mining a lot of his personal things, but it's actually still funny. I like a storyteller more than anybody, more than stand-up that just goes for joke after joke.

• 1:43Kara Swisher?

  So he's incredibly thoughtful in the genre of a lot of comedians today, who are doing a lot more than just telling jokes. Our expert question today comes from another very thoughtful comedian whom I interviewed a few months ago, Michelle Buteau. So happy Pride, everyone, and enjoy.

• 2:08Speaker 02

  I'm Anika Garten, and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloé Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style, and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Conde Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.

• 2:46Speaker 02

  I want to start with talking about your special, which I loved. It's a new HBO special called Don't Be Gay. I think it's your fourth or fifth?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Just my fourth, yeah.

• 2:54Speaker 02

  Fourth of them, right, yeah. Just in time for Pride. Do you do Pride?

• 2:57Speaker 01

  I do Pride in my own way.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  Tell me why.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  I just don't like crowds. I don't want, I don't, like, there's no parades.

• 3:04Speaker 02

  Right, there's no parades.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Parades are scary.

• 3:05Speaker 02

  Right, yeah.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I understand Pride. Here's the thing. I, after coming out, I didn't come out till I was 30, and then after coming out, I have like Google Alerts for myself, obviously.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  Obviously.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  And there's like all these, I'm on these lists in these countries. It's like basically like lists of gay celebrities. Like, oh, like, guess who's gay dot, like, wehateyou.net or whatever. And I understand Pride, because like I'm a terrified traveler. I will not go to your country unless you have a Pride parade. I don't want to participate in a Pride parade.

• 3:37Speaker 02

  Right.

• 3:37Speaker 01

  But you better show me a faggot with a shirt off on a float going down a busy street.

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Although there are countries that are not friendly to gays. It's still also, like, there's a lot of both at law.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Well, I need at least that.

• 3:49Speaker 02

  You need at least the Pride parade.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  I need it. You better, I won't flag, like, show me that, like, that he can safely make it from one end of the street to the other.

• 3:56Speaker 02

  Also, a state, is the same thing with a state? Like, a state in the United States? Most of them have a Pride parade.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I guess they have Pride parade. I mean, the places I would, that's more a culinary thing, like, places that I'll visit.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  Right, that's true.

• 4:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 4:08Speaker 02

  I don't like parades either. The only thing I enjoy is every now and then a dyke march is kind of cool.

• 4:13Kara Swisher?

  Because they're frightening.

• 4:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but it's for the show. I understand it for the show. A show of safety, a show of support. I totally understand that.

• 4:22Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, there was just an interesting interview with Richard Grenell. You know, he works for Trump. He's running the Kennedy Center. He's their gay.

• 4:28Speaker 01

  Oh, he's their gay?

• 4:29Kara Swisher?

  He's their gay.

• 4:30Speaker 01

  They found a gay to like-

• 4:31Kara Swisher?

  They found a gay who hates himself.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  For the arts?

• 4:33Kara Swisher?

  Normal gays don't like pride parades. And I was like, normal gays do.

• 4:38Speaker 01

  Well, normal gays-

• 4:39Kara Swisher?

  Abnormal ones do.

• 4:40Speaker 01

  Well, normal gays don't program for Donald Trump.

• 4:43Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's exactly right. That's right. So, let's talk about the special. You talked about being raised straight when you came out in Ruffianial. And you talked about you kept part of your life a secret. You said 30 years old.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm giving like a rough estimate.

• 4:56Kara Swisher?

  30, that's late.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:58Kara Swisher?

  Especially in this day and age.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:00Kara Swisher?

  So, why so late?

• 5:02Speaker 01

  I was scared of my mom. And they're like, it could probably be reduced to being that simple. Like, when I came out, that was the biggest fear. It was also a change of perception. Something happens, I think, if you wait. I think you can come out in like these windows. Like, I think like, you know, when you're really young, or like college is a chance to form a new identity. So you can come out then. And then, like, I kind of slipped into this thing where I moved to LA and I met all these new friends and close friends. And so now, I've just been lying to the, for years and years and years. So it was like, I want to tell you something, but I also don't want to tell you that I've been lying to you for this long.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  And then, there's this religious fear, the fear of God's punishment, the fear of my mother as she represents God. All these things just compounded and made me wait.

• 5:50Kara Swisher?

  What were you fearful of with your mother?

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Judgment, like judgment not being the person that, like my mother's, I, my mother has the best idea. I'm trying to think of how to explain this. Like, I would love to be able to see myself as my mother sees me. She birthed a son that she prayed for, that she wanted, and- He came and she has nothing but the best hopes and wishes and like has this beautiful idea. It's a really beautiful idea of like what her son is supposed to be and how he's supposed to be in the world. And I love most of it. Like, most of it, I'd love to accept.

• 6:30Kara Swisher?

  Successful, happy.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Successful, happy. However, like, being gay didn't align with that idea. And so I was, I was afraid of shattering it, like, both for her, for me, it was, it was a...

• 6:42Kara Swisher?

  Was it explicit? Was gay explicit in the...

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that, yeah, that's, that kinda came with the Southern Baptist package, right?

• 6:51Kara Swisher?

  And they're more aggressive than ever today.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:53Kara Swisher?

  They're hoping to return, overturn gay marriage. The Baptists have said it explicitly than they had before.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 6:59Kara Swisher?

  So, so, so...

• 7:00Speaker 01

  I mean, it makes sense from their pers- like, of course, they're like, yeah, yeah.

• 7:04Kara Swisher?

  I was always like, they're, they're just not gonna stop.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:06Kara Swisher?

  But one of the, the, the things that you did, though, is you, even though you came out then, you did drop breadcrumbs all over the place. It seems like, to me, watching your stuff. In 2015, you had your NBC sitcom, The Carmichael Show. The fourth episode was about a teenager coming out to you.

• 7:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:22Kara Swisher?

  Uh, first is gay, then is transgender. Your fictional parents in that show, Joe and Cynthia, same names as your real parents, by the way, handled the situation pretty well, so it was kind of like wishful.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was like writing, like, writing...

• 7:35Kara Swisher?

  How you'd like them to deal with it.

• 7:36Speaker 01

  The future to go, yeah.

• 7:37Kara Swisher?

  You also made references in your 2019 home videos. Talk about that. Were you consciously aware you were, I assume you were doing it on purpose?

• 7:45Speaker 01

  Home videos, home videos was like, that, that was my, my soft launch. Right? But it was, I was so terrified. That was the whole reason I, I did it. I had just come out to my closest friends, maybe like a couple of weeks before that.

• 7:57Kara Swisher?

  Which they knew, right?

• 7:58Speaker 01

  Some knew, some were gracious, some like, some were shocked. I got like a kind of, yeah, yeah, like a, a range of reactions.

• 8:06Kara Swisher?

  I got a lot of no shit, Sherlock, but go ahead.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  I, I'm having a soft launch where I like, I like built up enough courage to tell my best friend, and then I do this thing where like, it's like a real floodgate type of mentality where I'm like, okay, well, now I guess I need to tell everybody in the world, starting with my mom, and I made this documentary. Well, I went to North Carolina.

• 8:27Kara Swisher?

  The reality show.

• 8:28Speaker 01

  The, the, before that, it was called Home Videos.

• 8:31Kara Swisher?

  Home Videos, right, okay.

• 8:31Speaker 01

  And that was where it like, really was all built around this moment in the living room where I was gonna tell my mom, but I couldn't say I was gay. I, I couldn't. I think I, I think I was bi for like two weeks.

• 8:43Kara Swisher?

  Oh, okay, right. I think I like.

• 8:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, I could go, no, no, I could go both ways. I could still have a wife, yeah, yeah, like, just like lying to myself or whatever. But I, I was so nervous, I was just on the couch. And my mom had just gone through a lot, finding out about my father's, like, other family. So I like, was like, having this heavy conversation with her. And like, on top of that, I was like, and I hooked up with dudes before. It's like, and camera pants to her. And she's, my mom's, my mom is cool, unfortunately. And just like, like, actually like, cool.

• 9:15Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  To the point of being cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, that's your preference.

• 9:20Kara Swisher?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a killer.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 9:23Kara Swisher?

  Oh, that's your preference.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  Ice, yeah.

• 9:26Kara Swisher?

  That's what you wanna do.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  That's what you wanna do.

• 9:27Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so not a screaming kinda thing.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 9:30Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I got a screamer.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Really?

• 9:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, which was easier, I suppose, in some fashion.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  I actually, like, I, I provoke arguments in my relationship because I think I associate like, screaming with like, truth. People usually aren't like, screaming a lie.

• 9:46Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right, unless they're narcissists.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe, yeah, maybe.

• 9:49Kara Swisher?

  It's just a performance, right? Um, so you, um, is it, is it strange to look back at those moments? When you, when you look at them?

• 9:57Speaker 01

  N- not strange, that, that was actually probably the beginning of,

• 10:03Speaker 01

  like, I can look back at those moments now, knowing that I was doing the best that I possibly could. This is the best.

• 10:10Kara Swisher?

  At the time.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  At the time. This is the best I could do at the time. This is as brave as I could be. This is the most I could say. And I can look back at it, then what's difficult? Is looking back at like even like old stand up before coming out. Because I I could see how much of it all was a performance.

• 10:30Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  Like I I could see.

• 10:31Kara Swisher?

  Do you remember a joke that was?

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Well, just all I was doing, you know, just jokes about like really like aggressive. Like tearing down marriage. A lot of that was with my because of my parents and like seeing. You know, the lies and stuff that my father told, but but then also like a lie I was telling myself like made me very cynical and skeptical. About marriage as an institution. Well, it's all built on lies anyway. And that's also. It's, you know, you're in your twenties and you've got all the answers and like, so for for different reasons is is is hard for me to look. At that time in my life with like pride and confidence. I can't li- I I wasn't recording any sets. I wasn't like posting anything online. Like I was a very.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  I was like a club comic, just going up, performing my jokes, having this antagonistic exchange with the audience. And then I leave and go off to my own.

• 11:24Kara Swisher?

  Did that make you a less good comic when you weren't yourself? Some people think that if you're not your genuine self.

• 11:31Speaker 01

  I hope that's kind of, yeah. Um, I think for me, yes, I think I. Found something in the truth and found something in revelation that was really necessary and and not not just cathartic, but necessary for the skill and the craft. Like to be able to write uninhibitedly and to be able to like articulate a full experience because I I I find that really rewarding. Things that I was hiding are actually what a lot of my act is about now. So for me, yes, I think there are some people who have built. Characters that are funny and and it works and like, you know, like Sebastian Maniscalco doesn't need to have like some type of like.

• 12:10Speaker 01

  Deep revelation about his relationship with his father because like he's he's felt like a stage character that works. Like I think there's a lot.

• 12:18Kara Swisher?

  So you can do that.

• 12:18Speaker 01

  Seinfeld or like so like people that have felt like a persona on stage that really.

• 12:23Kara Swisher?

  Different.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:24Kara Swisher?

  But you use the material from your life in the Gerard Carmichael reality show. People call it a Truman. Show-esque, it's more of a documentary. You had camera team follow you around capturing lots of hard coming out conversations with friends, your parents, and your relationship with your current boyfriend, Mike. One of the scenes that I really liked was when you agreed to pray with your mother. You had a very strained smile on your face that's just heartbreaking.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:49Kara Swisher?

  Talk a little bit about that moment and the religious issues and your relationship now. Cause you're pulling her into it.

• 12:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well, so I invited her to New York. I come out, our relationship was strained, I invited her to New York. And it was a lot of like me, go to therapy, family therapy with me. You know, listen to my perspective and I tried so hard to like hammer it. And I was being really, really aggressive. And it was a moment where I was like, hey, what if I actually listened? What, what do you want? Like, what is a solution that you feel comfortable with?

• 13:22Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Like, I haven't, I realized I wasn't listening to her. Like, I've flown her to New York just to kind of like bully her into like my perspective.

• 13:30Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. You will like me and my-

• 13:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you will like me and be in my gay kingdom. Yeah, yeah, but, but I, but I didn't listen to her. And so, and I, and I wanted to listen and she wanted to pray. She wanted to like actually pray and like have, and it's funny, it's, it's a strange feeling because, you know, I've kind of taken this long route back to like understanding the necessity of like ritual, of prayer, of hope, faith. And I admire that about my mother. I admire her, like very steadfast, unmovable faith.

• 14:05Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  And, and I actually think-

• 14:07Kara Swisher?

  And it's a practice, right?

• 14:07Speaker 01

  It's a practice. And I, and I think that, like that part of a personality that I've gotten, and even just on a spiritual level, I think I've reaped benefits from that. Right? Like this, this woman who like prayed for her son that's going thousands of miles away to Los Angeles to this, he knew nobody with a dream. And, and this belief that God did have like, was gonna bless a path of purpose in my life. Like, I, I, these things, I can't just like take the good.

• 14:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, right.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  You know, like-

• 14:36Kara Swisher?

  I'll take the positives.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and so, so there's something really beautiful about that and something, uh, and I have kind of found the necessity for that. Again, in my life, I've been trying to rebuild God. Like, I real, like, I grew up Southern Baptist, singing on the choir. You know, people thought I was gonna be a minister, like saltines and grape juice having communion at home. Then, you know, moved out and got too smart for the religion. And have kind of now in my, in my 30s, like, come back around to understanding the need for, and especially I understand my mother's need for.

• 15:10Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  You know, like, God is the only man in her life that wasn't lying to her. My, my mother is like, her, her father, her husband, and even I, like, as much as I've found myself trying to protect her, was lying about, you know, like, God's the only, the only man in her life that was.

• 15:28Kara Swisher?

  That sticks with it.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:30Kara Swisher?

  Do you think it's a need for spirituality in your path, or a belief in Christianity? Which one is it? Every now and then I wander past a church and want to go in.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Something, you know, something higher, something bigger, something bigger than yourself. And going back to potential, like, seeing that in myself and seeing that in others, that takes practice to be able to look someone in the eyes and say, look someone who may be having a frustrated moment and say, like, no, you're bigger than this moment. Like, you, to have a system in place that is grander.

• 16:00Kara Swisher?

  Do you use that system anymore? Given you grew up in it, it's hard to move away from practices.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I still, I find myself, like, singing and playing gospel on Sundays, not even realizing it's Sunday. It's just like finding myself, like, like, that's the music that moves me. I can cry listening to spiritual music. I, I definitely need it, and I've accepted it. Again, I've, I've let go of, like, being too smart.

• 16:25Kara Swisher?

  What do you mean you're too smart for?

• 16:26Speaker 01

  Because I, I, like, I could break down, like, my spirituality in maybe like three steps. It's just like, okay, believe everything's good. Step one. Step two, hey, that's fucking stupid. Open your eyes, look around.

• 16:40Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 16:41Speaker 01

  And then step three is, yeah, but believe it anyway.

• 16:44Kara Swisher?

  I see, yeah, that's faith.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Like, going, yeah, going past that, like, that, that stuff. I've read too much, I know too much to just be.

• 16:51Kara Swisher?

  Things aren't all good.

• 16:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to believe that, but there's a part of me that, like, wants to smother that.

• 17:09Kara Swisher?

  I'm Kara Swisher and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.

• 17:45Kara Swisher?

  Watching Marilyn's show with all the home video footage of your childhood mixed in, you were using cameras from a young age.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:52Kara Swisher?

  Were you performing or what did you think about it? And did you see yourself in the third person as like the character in the play that is Gerard?

• 18:01Speaker 01

  I think so. I think like psychoanalysis would say, yes, that's what I was doing. I didn't know what I was doing, but I liked a show. I love putting on a show. It was all a show. The church was one of my favorite shows and wrestling. Grew up watching WWE. I loved that show. And Home was a show, like in the performance of my parents' marriage, the performance of myself as the good son. It was all a show. So I loved when like life seemed to make sense when we were putting on the show, when the cameras are rolling or the curtains are drawn back. Now, actually, the show at least makes sense and gives purpose to the show that I was already performing anyway. So, yeah, yeah, I do have a love for the camera.

• 18:44Kara Swisher?

  When you look back at those home videos, what do you think?

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, I think I hear my voice and I go like, oh, you poor gay boy.

• 18:53Kara Swisher?

  You know.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I hear my voice and I hear the need to be a good son, to be an entertainer. You know, I see that in.

• 19:08Kara Swisher?

  Kind of a need to be seen, right?

• 19:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is the thing that I was most terrified of.

• 19:13Kara Swisher?

  Right, so in reality show, you have an anonymous friend. People guessed it's fellow comedian Bo Burnham, who has directed a couple.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  I'll never tell.

• 19:20Kara Swisher?

  You'll never tell, okay. And he kind of calls you on the bull show, the idea of the show being reality, warns you, treating the camera like it's God, right? He was a stand in for the criticism you think you're going to get and you're, and you're taking the wind out of those sails. Talk about this anonymous character and how you were thinking of it and the narrative structure of that show.

• 19:40Speaker 01

  Like, you know, the Greek chorus.

• 19:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, sure, yeah.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  You know, foreboding and wise.

• 19:46Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  And plays that role in my actual life, so that made sense for the structure of the show.

• 19:50Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  You know, it's funny because.

• 19:53Kara Swisher?

  It's a real choice that you made there, you know, to have that.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, well, because it's interesting, I'd come up, like I said, like came into my first references, like Dick Cavick and all these like things. I'd like come up thinking television and the cameras and all these things are like a miracle and I learned to put on a show and I learned like a skill. At a time when like a lot of my friends were like leaning into like, all right, well, you got to put your set on YouTube and you have to be on, you know, Twitter and Dane Cook had just had a million followers on MySpace, you know, and that kind of thing. And like, everyone was leaning into that type of technology. I was still trying to develop like this specific craft of like connecting with an

• 20:38Speaker 01

  audience, like a live audience and like, and even.

• 20:41Kara Swisher?

  The Murph Griffin, Dick Cavick.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  And television is a miracle, so like you have to craft the show, like this very well-written, well-crafted show. And so I was developing this skill while it seemed like the world was going in a different direction. By the time I did reality show, I'd done the five-camera NBC.

• 21:00Kara Swisher?

  Right, the NBC Carmichael Show.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And I'd written my parents' response and how it should be and the father knows best and we hug at the end of the episode. Like I'd written all of it, I'd done all of that. Like when it was time to do like the deal with HBO, I was like, well, I could write. Another, I could do that, but I've done that already. And the world seems to be moving in this direction where it's like, reality is like strange, like, like, everybody's got a camera and everybody's kind of got their own show. And everyone's putting on a performance in their bedroom and like, the world i- is this now. So I was like, well, what if that's my show? What if I like, kind of take

• 21:39Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  everything I've learned up until this point and meet the world where it is? And just like, instead of like, writing my mother's response to my coming out? Cause I was gonna do the autobiographical

• 21:50Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:51Speaker 01

  comic thing that comics do.

• 21:52Kara Swisher?

  I told my mother I was gay.

• 21:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and so, but what if it's, what if instead of casting Loretta Devine this time, we get actual Cynthia Carmichael to come and have her response? And we make that into the show and a lot of the craft was in the editing. And a lot of what I needed to be was just like, open.

• 22:10Kara Swisher?

  What did she think of it?

• 22:11Speaker 01

  My mother?

• 22:12Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  Um, my mother doesn't change for the camera.

• 22:15Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  So she thinks exactly what you see. That's part, that's another part of it.

• 22:20Kara Swisher?

  What does she think of you doing that?

• 22:23Speaker 01

  She prefer if I not.

• 22:25Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:25Speaker 01

  But because she's unchanged, it's like, all right, well, if this is what you want to do, fine. I'll, you want me to say it again for the cam? Like, like,

• 22:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  if we were having a private conversation?

• 22:35Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 22:36Speaker 01

  And then I said, hey, I'm gonna bring in an entire crew and a camera. I'm gonna mic you. Do you mind repeating that? She go, yeah, sure, I can say it again. She'd be more burdened by repeating herself than by the cameras coming into the room.

• 22:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, but we, every episode, we get a question from an outside expert. Yours is another mildly hyphenate comedian. I've interviewed Michelle Buteau.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  Oh, hey, Michelle.

• 22:56Kara Swisher?

  So I know, let's go with that.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  As a creator, co-creator, starring in, executive producer, whether it is a sitcom or a stand-up special or a reality show, how do you find the line? Like, the fine line, the balance between giving too much of yourself? Or not enough? Do you feel in the moment? Do you plan ahead about what you're gonna share? Are there consequences with sharing your mind, body, soul and spirit and stories with people? That's my question.

• 23:27Kara Swisher?

  Which she does too.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, for sure. I, I, I, um, I don't really think about it, I don't think. It's, um,

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Because there's two lines. It's like, I want to continue to like evolve and change and grow on all these words as a person. And I also want to be able to craft something entertaining. Sometimes it's like, I think those two things align and sometimes they may not. And like, the reality show was just, and Raffanu were like specials and pieces of art where those things aligned and that the me, that I was the show, that was the show.

• 24:06Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  There are times like my most recent special, Don't Be Gay, where it's like all those jokes and ideas aren't necessarily just me in that moment, but it's like a crafted idea.

• 24:17Kara Swisher?

  Right, and an edit. You think about it.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, and an edit. Yeah, and it's all edited and it's all, so it is in some ways like sacrificing all of it for

• 24:26Kara Swisher?

  the art.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, just like, yeah.

• 24:28Kara Swisher?

  Are there consequences? Do you feel consequences with doing that?

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. For sure, for sure. Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  There are people in my life that are very angry about the cameras. There are also people, I think there's consequences to just being truthful.

• 24:45Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Like, like, like, I remove every camera. Like, you go around like telling the truth, people are gonna hate.

• 24:50Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yes, they do.

• 24:52Speaker 01

  Like, people are gonna get really upset.

• 24:53Kara Swisher?

  They secretly like you.

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:55Kara Swisher?

  You talk about some of the consequences in your recent special, Don't Be Gay. It's more like a regular stand-up, right? It's pretty sexually explicit. You talk about your open relationship. You talk about sex with strangers from Grindr. You talk about race and racial dynamics, how people reacted to your boyfriend who was white. You got a lot of vitriol on Black Twitter after Reality Show came out, but you repeatedly say you're focused on homophobia, that you forgot about the racism, which is, which one shall we pick?

• 25:20Kara Swisher?

  Talk about the reactions to your specials in various communities. And does that play a role in your creative process?

• 25:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, my friend jokes and says that I'm at too many intersections.

• 25:31Kara Swisher?

  You are very intersectional.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  You know, like, like, race and money and class and sexuality and just religion. It's just, it's I do feel like I'm like standing at Like the on the nose like key art for any of my work could just be like a band with an umbrella at an intersection.

• 25:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 01

  So it is kind of a, for any reaction, there's like another side that disagrees with them. Like I, I don't, I, I wouldn't know where to turn or where to be pulled. You know, I want to make people happy. I, I really, that's, that's a lie. I want people to be entertained.

• 26:11Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Cause that's my job.

• 26:13Kara Swisher?

  That's correct.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  That's really what I want. I'm also now, I've been in the business long enough. I, I've seen the value or your value as an entertainer change.

• 26:24Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  There, there was a time when there was a wall, right? Where the celebrity, the person, the personality was someone to be like, they put on makeup and they went on the show. And you wondered what their life was and they were to be admired. And, and, and you like, you see what they present and then they go away. And now everyone kind of has that for themselves. You can put out your opinion, your thoughts, your, your face.

• 26:49Kara Swisher?

  Can expose yourself.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  You can expose yourself constantly. Like everyone's the news. Like, like everyone is their own like 24 hour news channel.

• 26:57Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  So the best you could be as an artist is like the OJ trial.

• 27:01Kara Swisher?

  Right. Maybe not.

• 27:04Speaker 01

  But, but kinda just like, oh, but, but unfortunately it's gonna be. Everyone's watching and everyone's gonna have an opinion and, but that's the, that's the art is for people to go like, some people are gonna hate it.

• 27:13Kara Swisher?

  Play any role in your creative, does it change the creative process when you get reaction? I try not to let it, but I can tell you it does.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah. Like, I mean, the, but my last special was like, is talking about my reaction to reactions. It's like, and, and so it's not just like a snake eating itself. Like you kind of, I, I have to step away from it for a little while.

• 27:34Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Like now, like you, you, you only stop searching your name on Twitter because you've been hurt.

• 27:39Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. I don't do that anymore.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:42Kara Swisher?

  That's the word cunt is there.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, you.

• 27:44Kara Swisher?

  On Twitter now.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone does it. But you don't, at most, you can just not do it anymore.

• 27:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's right, that's true, that's true, that's true.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  But you had to stop, it was like, oh, that was like.

• 27:54Kara Swisher?

  That was, yeah, well, it changed, it changed, that particular platform changed. Um, can we go back to class for a minute? It just stuck in my head, that was a theme in your earlier work, and it kind of the third rail in America.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:05Kara Swisher?

  No one talks about class.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:07Kara Swisher?

  Now, again, since you're at the intersection, right now, you're talking about don't be gay.

• 28:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:10Kara Swisher?

  But talk a little bit about the class stuff that was in your earlier work, because I thought that was really interesting.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  Well, just because, I mean, it's a, you know, I grew up in a, in a place and an environment where people didn't have money. So, like, you think about money all the time, you like, you're upset, you know.

• 28:29Kara Swisher?

  Or locked there up.

• 28:29Speaker 01

  One of the first things I remember when we got the internet, there was this website that broke down Bill Gates' wealth into like little pieces of like bits of information. I remember one that said, Bill Gates makes over $300 per second.

• 28:44Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  So if he's walking down the street and he drops a hundred dollar bill on the ground, it's not worth his time to bend over.

• 28:51Kara Swisher?

  Right, just leave it.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  Imagine being nine, like, what the fuck are you even talking about?

• 28:58Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right.

• 28:59Speaker 01

  Like, an obsession with like, well, how do I get this, how do I get that? Church, like, I talk about that in the special, like, church, because it makes me understand, I understand people's need for like Trump. If you're poor, Trump represents like this.

• 29:11Kara Swisher?

  An aspirational.

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and the way, because I grew up like around people that went to like mega churches, like, poor people, like, they just couldn't pay like medical bills, that had like pointed to a minister in a mansion with the Mercedes. But I, I understand the need for that. Rappers did that for me, like, I'm like, I couldn't afford the things they were talking about, but like, through proxy, I'm like, oh, I feel confident, I feel that, like, and so, and so then. You know, my life is like, is strange, because then like, oh, now I'm like, thrown on the other side of that.

• 29:43Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  And now, like, it's just a completely different perspective that I'm still like, learning. I'm learning how to talk about, learning how to deal with. Comedians don't usually talk about money, like, it's kind of like, it's, it's, you're supposed to be more relatable in the ever, every.

• 29:56Kara Swisher?

  To everyone.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. But I just find it interesting.

• 30:00Kara Swisher?

  So what are the things that you talk about a lot also is who, you mentioned Dick Cavett, you mentioned others.

• 30:04Speaker 01

  I don't know why Dick Cavett's come up a lot today, yeah.

• 30:06Kara Swisher?

  Dick Cavett was amazing.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:08Kara Swisher?

  That's because he was, or Tom Snyder, or Merv Griffin, or, there were so many of them. But you often say, also, you love Norman Lear and so many others. Who influences you now? And is there LGBTQ work you admire, or?

• 30:23Speaker 01

  Um.

• 30:23Kara Swisher?

  Or not?

• 30:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, for sure. Well, here's the thing. What the funny thing is, out or closeted, you're, if you are an artist, you are heavily influenced by LGBTQ work.

• 30:33Kara Swisher?

  Yes, that's true. That's true. That's right.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, like, like, if you're in the church, anyway.

• 30:39Kara Swisher?

  Who was the most important previously as a young comic?

• 30:42Speaker 01

  Well, Jay-Z, well, Jay-Z was like my role model. Somebody who I looked to for emotional guidance and practical guidance. And to be like, you know, how to walk, how to speak, what to wear, how to be in the world. Like, like, he, he was my role model, more than any comic. Because he came from a place that was similar to where I was. And, and, and he made it out. And he carried himself with such confidence. And he like, never lost touch, like, lost the sense of who he was. And I, I needed that, I still need that. I'm so lucky to have the big brother I have, who like, chose Jay-Z as his favorite rapper.

• 31:22Speaker 01

  Because like, Jay-Z is one of the only rappers, like, that grew in the form and like, talked about things that rappers just never talk about. Like, the person who made Big Pimpin' also made 444. That just usually doesn't happen in, in an artist's career. Any genre of anything. Yeah, yeah, an evolving artist. So they're so, they're so rich and interesting.

• 31:42Kara Swisher?

  He also talked about his gay mom.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Deep, personal things, like, it was incredible. And, and, you know, um. But as far as comedians, I still, I mean, you know, I love Louis. I think Louis CK may be one of the more brilliant minds. And I wish I could do what he does. I can't, I think I'm closer to like Cosby, like in storytelling. Like, I think that's just where I've found myself.

• 32:08Kara Swisher?

  Storytelling.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and like telling stories and like using, like using my life as the material and like stretch. But like Louis.

• 32:16Kara Swisher?

  He's very meta, isn't he?

• 32:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, obviously we're adults. I don't have to do the whole disclaimer thing.

• 32:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, don't, don't roofie people, don't show your.

• 32:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, obviously don't do that.

• 32:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, so you were in The Breakfast Club, you were on The Breakfast Club a year or so ago and said something really interesting. Let me play it for you.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Comedy doesn't grow, comedy doesn't evolve. It's, it's kind of stunted like rap and like we just started getting like real braggadocious, like antagonistic with the crowd. And it can evolve like, and we need smart people like Dave, like Chris Rock, like myself, to actually evolve the art form because it is dying. It's so, so important for people to go up and do deep, personal stories or have a deep perspective about things going on in the world. Because it's not happening.

• 33:03Kara Swisher?

  Well, that's something to say. What do you mean about comedy being stunted?

• 33:07Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, you know, look, I'm.

• 33:09Kara Swisher?

  Well, evolve or die.

• 33:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's, this probably could be a even bigger statement about like art. Cause the word platform gets used a lot. And I'm just of the belief that a platform isn't a platform if everybody's standing on it. And so like now a lot of like, I will take comedy. There's some very funny comedians who do crowd work, but now like I don't want the crowd.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  Like, like my work isn't with the crowd. Like my work are like these thoughts that I like, you know, took time to craft and think through and write through. Or felt brave enough to share or like something that's like interesting that like, that it just becomes something else.

• 33:53Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  You know, like it, like, and I'm, and I watch comedy kind of take on a different form that.

• 33:58Kara Swisher?

  Like a crowdsourced kind of thing?

• 34:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and I, and I never really believed in like crowdsourcing art. I, I don't think that, I think it's like part of the reason you don't like take the, the American Idol winners seriously.

• 34:09Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Like, oh, I voted for you, I chose you.

• 34:12Kara Swisher?

  I chose you, right, right.

• 34:13Speaker 01

  How, how could I ever take you seriously?

• 34:15Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  And how could you, they also feel beholden to the crowd. Like, like to invest it, like, that's the difference between art and business. The CEO of the company should be beholden to the shareholders. The artist should be beholden to themselves.

• 34:28Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And like create something.

• 34:29Kara Swisher?

  Is that hard to resist, given the participation, the audience now? Either through social media or comments, or they do it themselves, or they have comments on the comments?

• 34:37Speaker 01

  Well, well, it's profitable.

• 34:38Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  So, there's that, like, you know, like that you, you say we-

• 34:43Kara Swisher?

  The playing to the crowd.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like you kind of start sounding like The Rock. You know, it's a lot of like, we, we, we did it, we sold out this room. You know, we, like, we, we, we, and like, that's one way of approaching it. And, and I, I think I just have a different-

• 34:58Kara Swisher?

  So you're more like a chef, like I made this for you, either like it or not, it's up to you.

• 35:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would never, that's a great example. I would never want to go to the restaurant where I, you want, you want me to make, I'm in charge of pasta.

• 35:09Kara Swisher?

  Would you like a little?

• 35:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 35:10Kara Swisher?

  Add a little turmeric.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, like, no, I'm gonna ruin the dish.

• 35:13Kara Swisher?

  Right, it is interesting, a lot of people do. When you have, like, when you have, especially even now, we have a lot of fans now, I think it more is, and people tell you what they think.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:23Kara Swisher?

  We think you should do this, and I'm like, I'm not doing anything I say.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And also, if I did, you will hate me.

• 35:29Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  You actually don't know the, and like, it's easy to get caught up in it, like, no, you will, you will hate, it's the quote, like, never give the audience what they want, they'll never forgive you.

• 35:38Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, that's true, that's true. One of the things that, that actually is easy to do too, besides low hanging fruit and not evolving, is punching down. Um, which I think we're on a dunk culture, Trump exemplifies the dunk culture, obviously. Michelle and you have been openly critical of Dave Chappelle and other comedians who punch down in sets. Um, you got a bit of media back and forth with Chappelle on talking about jokes on trans folks. You've walked back a little bit, I, I get why, I personally just think one joke is funny, an hour of it is not.

• 36:08Speaker 01

  My, my argument, honestly- Was was removed from it's it's me as a fan of his.

• 36:15Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  As like a fan of his and as a fan of the art form itself.

• 36:19Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And and so I it was more a critique of like craft. I I Evel Knievel is gonna jump over thirteen buses, right? He revs up, he's about to do it. Certainly, he's like, he's getting nervous, the crowds like, is he gonna make it? Is he gonna live or die? He goes over, he lands on the other side, he does it.

• 36:42Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  It's a miracle.

• 36:44Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  If he circles around and does it again.

• 36:47Kara Swisher?

  Correct.

• 36:48Speaker 01

  Oh, it's easy.

• 36:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Then do something, then add more buses.

• 36:52Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, and so it's just it's just how like I think.

• 36:56Kara Swisher?

  Lazy is what I had the issue with it. I'm like, it's just not funny. Like, I like a good lesbian.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  Well, you did it like you I thought it was it's it is just as a spectator is an incredible thing to pull off like I and I I. I also appreciate the spectacle and building up like it's hard to make anything interesting.

• 37:14Kara Swisher?

  Into it, he got pulled into the argument itself.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, you know, I think, but again, that's my people seem to love it. People seem.

• 37:20Kara Swisher?

  Some of it.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  People seem to love it, and I even get in some cases like I I don't even get caught up in the punching up punching down. If you have a thought like there probably is somebody with way more that can make a funny joke about somebody with way less. And I would laugh like I would be guilty of that. I don't even think about that is in principle, it is just.

• 37:41Kara Swisher?

  Is it funny or not?

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Well, just are you maximizing your own potential and your own ability?

• 37:46Kara Swisher?

  I see.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  And that's a personal question. Yeah, it's it's about craft for me more than it's a political argument.

• 37:51Kara Swisher?

  Is it different from what the Trump people are doing, you know, all the? They do a lot of dunking, dunking is a sport at this point.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, but then I gotta think about like, all right, how like I didn't vote for Trump, right? So but I'm like, how am I complicit in his right like I I do a lot of that. Like, what what am I what what did I do like I paid him a lot of attention? I have laughed. He makes me laugh.

• 38:20Kara Swisher?

  He can be funny.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Um, there's a part of me that like wants to like, that is angry and I want to punch down sometimes too. Like, like he does do a thing that, um, it's not, Obama and Trump, kind of like Captain Planet, Captain Pollution. To me, like, you know, like, like Obama is like, kind of the best of our virtues, you know, like Captain Planet was like earth, fire, wind, water, heart. And like, and, uh, Trump is the runoff, like the things that we don't necessarily, but, but it's, they're both true.

• 38:56Kara Swisher?

  Right, right, right.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Like, they're both, they're both true. They're both coming from a true place. Like, they, they both are a part of us. And, and like, I, I, I guess with, with like Trump, he makes me interested in exploring like the worst part of, of myself, I think, in, in some way.

• 39:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:13Speaker 01

  And to, to be able to think about incorrect and when it needs to be corrected.

• 39:17Kara Swisher?

  Well, do you, do you do a lot of political satire? You don't, because a lot of comedians are now.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:22Kara Swisher?

  And, and some people are going the opposite direction. The Carmichael Show was focused on societal issues, not politics.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:28Kara Swisher?

  Do you feel like doing more political humor? Or do you think people are tired of it?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  I talk about it in my living room. As far as like my work, I, I try and, my work is about what holds my attention. I haven't felt myself like having the, like the interest in like keeping up with the, they're, they're comedians who like, if a thing happens, they're on it, like just like on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Immediately. Yeah, here we go. Like, here we go. And like, and they may have like a really good take on it. The things that I talk about are things that I've been like dealing with for like, like weeks and months and years and like things that I'm like, oh, oh, a perspective, a breakthrough that I could bring. And to me, like, that's the best that I could bring.

• 40:06Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Like right now. Yeah, yeah.

• 40:08Kara Swisher?

  One of the things that was for Nathaniel, which I think people are surprised, it had a few jokes, right? And you've said that. Reality show was a sitcom. What is then comedy to you if it has few jokes?

• 40:18Speaker 01

  Well, Nathaniel was just like, I, I think it's like this art piece, this like, like very emotional. That it's a journey that you're on with the performer. And reality show is in many ways a journey. My most recent special, Don't Be Gay, is. I think it just, it is just crafted material. It's like, I think philosophically, I like tension. And like, breaking tension is what makes me laugh. Like, and, and sometimes that's being the lone voice of truth in a room full of lies. Sometime, like, but like, but.

• 40:54Kara Swisher?

  Comedy doesn't have to be funny.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Well, to me, what is funny, if, I, when I watch comedies, like, a lot of my favorite comedies are dramas. Right? Like, like, just like, I, I think like, Tarantino, like, like Tarantino is one of the funniest, like, film direct. He's not technically, you know, like, he's not writing comedy, but it's really funny. Like, like, Kristoff characters are, are funny because he breaks tension in an interesting way. If, if everybody's funny, for, for me, this is like my own personal, and I've had tastes like this since I was a kid. If everybody's funny, then nothing's funny. Uh, you know, the best example, I think of my, like, like, my own personal taste in comedy, there, there was, um, this movie that, uh, we love called Menace to Society.

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Uh, like, it came out in the early nineties, the Hughes Brothers, like, like, heavy, dark, telling the story about like, this young man loses his parents, is raised by his grandparents, gets caught up in the streets, and like, really, really heavy movie. That has some of the funniest moments, like, really funny scenes in it. You know, like, Clifton Powell has, I won't have to get into the detail, but this is a serious movie that has really funny moments. I think Menace to Society is funnier than, there was a, a Wayans Brothers parody of it called, Don't Be a Menace, while drinking your juice in the hood. Which, which is like, it's meant to parody it. I think Menace to Society is funnier than Don't Be a Menace.

• 42:24Kara Swisher?

  Oh, that's funny.

• 42:25Speaker 01

  So that's kind, that's just my, like, my own, I guess, like.

• 42:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  I, the Wayans Brothers are hilarious, but I'm just saying, like, that's my taste.

• 42:32Kara Swisher?

  Succession is a comedy.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  Succession's a comedy.

• 42:35Kara Swisher?

  Is a comedy.

• 42:35Speaker 01

  Sopranos is a comedy.

• 42:36Kara Swisher?

  I talked to Brian, I'm like, you're doing a comedy, he goes, I'm doing a comedy.

• 42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 42:40Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it, exactly.

• 42:42Kara Swisher?

  So fucking ridiculous.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's comedy to me.

• 42:56Kara Swisher?

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• 43:40Kara Swisher?

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• 44:08Kara Swisher?

  So I want to finish talking about your career and industry. Doing a sitcom on NBC and a special on HBO are obviously career goals for comics. You signed an overall two-year deal with HBO in 2022. Are you going to keep working for them? What is success now for a comedian or comic? Because it's changed.

• 44:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 44:28Kara Swisher?

  You don't want to be the head of late night anymore.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no, no, no interest in that.

• 44:32Kara Swisher?

  Right, but no one would have ever said that before.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I don't think like, like Richard Pryor never even, Richard Pryor was at the peak of Carson and he would never have wanted to do that.

• 44:42Kara Swisher?

  That's true.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  I To me, I mean, it's like the, it is just being able to make what you want to make. Like, you know, I didn't do this because I wanted to just like work. I wanted to do it because I had ideas.

• 44:58Kara Swisher?

  That you wanted to get through.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. I have comedian friends who like do podcasts and they're like talking to other people about things. I'm like, man, that seems exhausting.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Looking like, you really be caring about what people be saying? Like, I don't want to throw nobody on the bus, but you, you ever watch people do the, they trying to swallow the yawn? Yeah, I be watching like just sleepy people.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Like talking to politicians, like, you don't give a fuck about this. Like, that seems, like, I'd rather make less money and not have to do that.

• 45:26Kara Swisher?

  Whatever you want to make, wherever you can make it is all your interest.

• 45:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I love my relationship with HBO. I, I've, I'm thankful to have Nina Rosenstein, who has meant the world to me and like has understood me. And, and I, I like gatekeeping.

• 45:40Kara Swisher?

  Me too.

• 45:40Speaker 01

  I like that, I like that HBO is like a little bit smaller and that there are thoughtful people that are like, kind of like filtering through something. I think like art should be.

• 45:49Kara Swisher?

  Are you worried with all the, the, well, they're breaking apart, for example, that these companies are disintegrating or breaking apart or being made smaller?

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, I don't know. You kind of got to let it happen. There's nothing I can do about the mergers and the, them breaking apart and.

• 46:05Kara Swisher?

  You don't go, I gotta have a YouTube show now.

• 46:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, no. But I mean, if, if I, if I had an idea for one, I would do it. You know, and I'm, I'm not, I'm not against that, but, but it's just like, you know, I'm just saying like, and it, and even my idea of HBO in some ways is like a little antiquated.

• 46:23Kara Swisher?

  No, they have taste.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  No, no, it's actually not. They, they still do. They still have the shows that are talked about in a way, like, you know, friends talk about rehearsal or even talk about White Lotus, you know, like, like these things that are like talked about in culture because it's thoughtful. It's just thoughtful art. I just want like, you know, I want to work with thoughtful, I've been lucky enough to, to be able to work with like thoughtful artists, people that really care, people that, people that have shame. Like if things aren't good and like people that could be embarrassed.

• 46:57Kara Swisher?

  But you don't care where you are. You don't feel the pull of having to do YouTube or TikTok or things like that.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  No, and look, if I were, if I were younger.

• 47:06Kara Swisher?

  You're not old.

• 47:07Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just saying, but, but I am at a, at a, at a place where I, I grew up thinking about art like this way that you, you craft something and then you release it. It's not about constant engagement because it dilutes the art.

• 47:19Kara Swisher?

  So you're going, those young kids.

• 47:20Speaker 01

  Well, they're, you know what I'm saying? You're right. It's not about age because they're, they're older comedians that I, that I hear are guilty of this. No, too, but just like comedians are just like, talk too much. If my job is to talk to you for an hour, I can't talk to you.

• 47:34Kara Swisher?

  For five hours.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  For five hours a week.

• 47:36Kara Swisher?

  Right, that's right, yeah.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  And then like, it's gonna get diluted. That's just like math.

• 47:40Kara Swisher?

  Yes, that's a fair point.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  And, and so I, I just am a, a type of per, you're right, it's not an age thing. I'm just the type of person that like, I would rather speak to you potently for an hour.

• 47:51Kara Swisher?

  Got it.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  And like, and mean everything that I say.

• 47:54Kara Swisher?

  So one of the, a couple more things. Do you, do you worry about streamers getting more conservative? Obviously, a lot of these companies are paying off. Paramount might pay off Trump. ABC paid off Trump. And so, but are you worried about more conservatism or, or at all in the current political environment, which will change?

• 48:11Speaker 01

  I'm probably more worried about it broad, like, like more broadly, just like its effect, like that they're like nineteen year olds that have the same rhetoric that I heard like seventy year olds have.

• 48:23Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 48:24Speaker 01

  Like that, like that's like a little like, oh.

• 48:25Kara Swisher?

  Do you feel pressure to be in the manosphere, even though you like men?

• 48:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:30Kara Swisher?

  There's so many manosphere comedians now.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but.

• 48:33Kara Swisher?

  Many of whom aren't funny, actually.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  But, but anything, but, but like, that's what I'm saying, like, it, it is separating. Like, anything that becomes a thing, like when you, if you are joining the manosphere is over.

• 48:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Like, it's over. It's, it's already like, it's already, it's like seeing a star that's been dead long, like, it's over.

• 48:53Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I just care about any individual voice, any individual interesting voice. Like, you know, like, like, like Theo Von is funny.

• 49:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Theo Von was funny to me in twenty thirteen at the Comedy Store. It was like, you know, I was like, yeah, he's funny. He's always been funny. Like, is he in the, I don't know. Like, he was just, he was funny.

• 49:13Kara Swisher?

  You don't feel any pressure to go that direction?

• 49:14Speaker 01

  No, no. And I, I think feeling like, again, like. Yeah, I don't know. There's a difference between like the artist and like the used car salesman.

• 49:25Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  You know, there's just like kind of following the trend and doing the thing. Like, I don't know, like.

• 49:29Kara Swisher?

  Going back to what Michelle said, you're not just a comedian. You've been an executive producer, producer, a director, a movie and television actor. You've done reality shows, scripted shows. Is there something you haven't done that you still want to do? Obviously not a podcast, as you said, you don't have enough interest and you will yawn at people.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yawn like, I was like, I'm, thank you for not yawn, but thank you for not yawning during me.

• 49:54Kara Swisher?

  You're not boring, so I wouldn't.

• 49:55Speaker 01

  No, but I've been trying to remove hyphens.

• 49:58Kara Swisher?

  Okay, a multi hyphen.

• 50:00Speaker 01

  I, I, I don't want to be multi hyphen. I want to be really good at something.

• 50:03Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  I, I care about being really, really good at, like, if it's one thing, oh, to be so lucky. Now it's stand up.

• 50:11Kara Swisher?

  Stand up.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  I love going into a room with thoughts, with a show, with a performance.

• 50:15Kara Swisher?

  A live show with people.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, and, but I'm also, I, I, part of it is filming. I've also, I've always loved that. I've always, always loved how it's filmed and like that, that medium of like capturing lightning in a bottle and, and releasing it. That, that's always been exciting to me. Um, so that's kind of all, all a part of it.

• 50:36Kara Swisher?

  A part of it.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  I love the entertainment industry. I love it as an idea, but I don't need to wear multiple hats. I don't need to be a director for the sake of, I don't need to be called, I don't need to be called anything.

• 50:48Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. So just your work is all.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 50:51Kara Swisher?

  Um, last question. Do you think you're the son your mother wanted you to be?

• 50:55Speaker 01

  I think I'm the son she deserves.

• 50:57Kara Swisher?

  Meaning?

• 50:58Speaker 01

  Like, that, like, I care deeply about her, that, like, I think she, I think that is what she wanted. She wanted to be a good mom. I asked her once what her dream was, like, did she have any dreams? Did she have like a career aspiration or something that she wanted to do? She never got to do. And she told me that she, she always just wanted to be like a good mom. She wanted two boys, which she got, and she wanted to love them and wanted them to love her. And I do. I love her, I love her dearly. And I, and so that's why I say I think I, she got the.

• 51:29Kara Swisher?

  She got what she wanted.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I think so.

• 51:31Kara Swisher?

  Well, good job, Cynthia.

• 51:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:33Kara Swisher?

  Anyway.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  She did all right.

• 51:34Kara Swisher?

  Gerard, thank you so much. I really appreciate it. This has been a wonderful conversation.

• 51:38Speaker 01

  This is really fun. Thanks for having me.

• 51:46Kara Swisher?

  On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Kateri Yokum, Megan Burney, Alison Rogers, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Skylar Mitchell. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you don't have to join the manosphere. If not, you do. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.