6 Big Lessons to Build Your Dream Life with Sahil Bloom

Sahil Bloom is an entrepreneur and investor, and the author of the New York Times bestselling book The 5 Types of Wealth https://www.amazon.com/Types-Wealth-Transformative-Guide-Design/dp/059372318X. Most of us chase success that doesn’t reflect what we truly value. In this episode, Sahil and I explore how to close that gap and live more intentionally—starting with the bold decision he made to move his family for more time with loved ones. We unpack the difference between what you want and what you wish you wanted, dive into the five types of wealth, and end with six practical lessons to help you build a life that actually aligns with your values. — Where to find Sahil Bloom: • X: https://x.com/SahilBloom • Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sahilbloom • Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/p/Sahil-Bloom-100086913108285 • YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0vZSXQHRGPNZMFAKPLJcww • LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sahilbloom • Website: https://www.sahilbloom.com • Newsletter: https://www.sahilbloom.com/newsletter — Where to find Arthur Brooks: • Website: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://arthurbrooks.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://arthurbrooks.com/ • Newsletter: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.arthurbrooks.com/newsletter • X: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://x.com/arthurbrooks⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://x.com/arthurbrooks • Instagram: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.instagram.com/arthurcbrooks/ • Facebook: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.facebook.com/ArthurBrooks/ • YouTube: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGuyFRjJQFGCKzfHTBvWM6A • LinkedIn: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://www.linkedin.com/in/arthur-c-brooks/ • Email: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠[email protected]⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ mailto:[email protected] — Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (03:33) Why Sahil relocated to live near his parents (08:58) The five types of wealth (10:51) Why it never hurts to reach out (13:07) When your actions don’t match your values (16:15) The case for auditing how your values and actions align (20:14) Why achievement alone doesn’t bring happiness (24:02) What a successful life actually is (30:40) Why struggle is necessary for true satisfaction (37:01) Suffering as proof of living (40:53) Sahil’s mistakes (45:30) 6 lessons to build the life you want — Referenced: • The Meaning of Your Life: Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness: themeaningofyourlife.com http://themeaningofyourlife.com • Meaning Membership: https://hub.arthurbrooks.com/the-meaning-membership • The Happiness Scale: https://learn.arthurbrooks.com/the-happiness-scale • The Pursuit of Happiness with Arthur Brooks: https://www.thefp.com/s/the-pursuit-of-happiness-with-arthur • The 5 Types of Wealth: A Transformative Guide to Design Your Dream Life: https://www.amazon.com/Types-Wealth-Transformative-Guide-Design/dp/059372318X • ... References continued at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.arthurbrooks.com/office-hours⁠⁠ https://www.arthurbrooks.com/office-hours — Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ https://penname.co/⁠.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:29Arthur Brooks?

  Define for me, Sahil, your definition of a successful life.

• 0:34Speaker 02

  My definition of a successful life is, quite simply, being able to go and create the life that you have decided you want. I cannot tell you what success looks like for you, nor can you tell me what success looks like for me. My definition of success is being able to take my son in the pool at 1:00 PM on a Tuesday. We sold our house in California. I left my job. And we moved 3,000 miles across the country to live closer, you know, driving distance from both sets of parents.

• 1:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, so living on purpose is really important.

• 1:04Speaker 02

  You are the sum product of your actions. Being able to show up and convince yourself to just act in line with how your ideal self shows up in the world on a daily basis in the simplest way, a lot of good will come from that.

• 1:22Arthur Brooks?

  Hey friends, welcome to Office Hours. I'm Arthur Brooks, your host. So happy to have you back with us. This is a show, as you know, about the science of happiness and how you can get more of it in your life. The real techniques and practical habits that you can adopt. But just as importantly, the underlying science behind these habits and giving you tips and ways that you can share these ideas with others. Remember, if you want to become a happier person, you need to know the science, change your life, and share with others. And that's what this show is really all about. As you know, my mission personally, if you watch this show, is to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love using science and ideas. I'd love for you to feedback if you're a regular viewer of the show or even if this is your first time. Please let me know your thoughts by writing to me

• 2:06Arthur Brooks?

  at [email protected]. That's the email. Appears here right now. Don't forget to leave a review on Spotify or Apple and subscribe on your platform of choice. Subscribing is really helpful on YouTube and Spotify because that helps us with the algorithm and also you'll get the episodes delivered to you. You don't have to think about it. It'll come right to you. In this episode, I get to interview somebody that I like and admire very much. That's Sahil Bloom. Maybe many of you follow him. He has a big audience base across his newsletter and social media platforms. He's one of those talented people I've ever met at taking the best ideas that he finds about self-improvement, about empowerment,

• 2:46Arthur Brooks?

  about human flourishing, about human potential and bringing them in consumable ways to large groups of people, which is why he has such a large and dedicated audience. I met him when he out of the blue sent me an email and said, I really like your stuff. Can I come and watch your class at Harvard? Which was wonderful. It was lovely and he did and we got to know each other. We've been friends ever since. Since we first met during that time, he's had a big bestselling book. He, he wrote the book, The Five Types of Wealth, A Transformative Guide to Design Your Dream Life. In addition to that, he, he can, he creates original content across all of his platforms. So do remember, if you're inspired by the conversation that you're about to hear, and I think you are, I certainly was,

• 3:28Arthur Brooks?

  that you'll, you'll subscribe to his newsletter and follow him across his platforms. You'll be rewarded by doing that. What you're going to find in this episode is that we're going to have a wide ranging conversation that we're going to be able to boil down to six big lessons that you can use for your life. These are very practical things that you're going to find as well. I'll make sure that this all goes into the show notes, all the information that you need. And I'm going to review the, the six big lessons that we have in our conversation at the very end of the podcast. So watch all the way to the end. You're going to love it. Enjoy my conversation today with Sahil Bloom. Hey Sahil, how are you?

• 4:04Speaker 02

  I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.

• 4:06Arthur Brooks?

  It's nice to see you. And I see you're in some new digs. This is not your typical studio. Tell me where you are.

• 4:11Speaker 02

  I am now in the cold Boston suburbs. You find me in a, in an amazing flow from a life perspective, because we just made the move to live like in a 15-minute little circle with, with all of our family here.

• 4:25Arthur Brooks?

  So you're in a process of getting colder and colder because you started in California, then you moved to New York. Now you're in Boston. Next time I'm going to talk to you, you're going to be in Buffalo or something.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're going to be in Saskatchewan or something.

• 4:35Arthur Brooks?

  But tell, give me the, give me the reasons why you've, you've made these last two moves.

• 4:39Speaker 02

  You know, in 2021, I had a big reckoning or realization sparked by a conversation with a friend who asked me how I was doing. And I opened up that, you know, it had started to get difficult living so far away from my parents. My parents are two of my best friends in the world. And I think when you're young, you have this sort of youthful naivete about their immortality. You know, if you're lucky enough to have healthy parents, it's, it's not something you ever question. And COVID came around and I saw them. And I just remember thinking for the first time in my life, they're slowing down. Like they're not the vision I have in my mind of them in the same way. And when I went out for this drink with this friend and he asked about that, I said, you know, I'm not seeing my parents often.

• 5:22Speaker 02

  And he asked, how old are they? And I said, mid 60s. He asked how often I saw them. I said, about once a year. And he just looked at me and said, okay, so you're going to see your parents 15 more times before they die. And look, we were living in California. We had built a whole life there. I'd bought a house. I had this great job. All of my priorities were so focused on money and financial success and status being the pathway to me feeling like I had lived a good life. Success, wealth, et cetera. And in that moment, it sort of jammed a wrench in that, you know, in the, in the wheel of that bike. To just recognize that my entire definition of success or of wealth had been incomplete.

• 6:04Speaker 02

  I was really focusing on the one thing at the expense of everything else, rather than in conjunction with everything else.

• 6:12Arthur Brooks?

  And so you moved? To the colder part of the country because you wanted the warmer part in your heart.

• 6:17Speaker 02

  That's a good way of putting it. Yeah, we moved, you know, like within 45 days, we um, we sold our house in California. I left my job and we moved 3,000 miles across the country to live closer, you know, driving distance from, from both sets of parents.

• 6:31Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 6:31Speaker 02

  And, you know, the one thing I would just say about that is, what it created and instilled in us was this recognition of our own agency in our lives to recognize that we were capable of building our life around the things that we really cared about. You know, the priorities that we really had because there are really two types of priorities in life. There are the priorities we say we have, and there are the priorities our actions show we have. And oftentimes, there's a big gap between those two things. And your life improves alongside your ability to close that gap. But you cannot close it until you hold your feet to the fire enough, look yourself in the mirror to acknowledge that it exists in the first place.

• 7:12Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. I have to say though, Sahil, you missed the obvious solution to this problem. For listeners, Sahil's dad is my colleague at Harvard University, a professor. And the obvious solution is for them to move to California, you know?

• 7:25Speaker 02

  The obvious solution definitely would have been everybody to shift to the much, much nicer climate. You know, look, I mean, you know this, like, the gravity of where you live and the communities you build there is very real. And so for my parents in particular, they've lived in Boston since 1995.

• 7:43Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 7:43Speaker 02

  All the communities, all the circles of their friends, his, you know, his career, he's been at Harvard for 25 years. It becomes difficult to uproot for that reason. We, we had much less gravity built up where we were. And so while it was hard to move to the cold, and I certainly regret it this time of year, it was the best decision we ever made.

• 8:01Arthur Brooks?

  No, no kidding. And you know, we've done that too. We actually had a big family meeting. I've told you this before, but I don't think listeners have heard this. We had a big family meeting with my three adult kids. And we asked him, where do you think you're most likely to raise your children? And it was where they had been raised, which is the Washington DC area. So we all made plans. We got a great big moving van. One son married, moved with his wife and their brand new son to Washington. We did too. Our other son and his wife and son came from California and our daughter graduated from college. Now is in the Marine Corps, but we'll wind up there. And, you know, we have a three generation house. It's like talking about moving in together with one of the families and the others just up the street. But we made a very, very conscious decision for exactly the reasons that you suggest.

• 8:43Arthur Brooks?

  And, you know, my kids grew up not knowing their grandparents all that well. They saw them a couple of times a year max. My parents were on the West Coast and my in-laws were in Barcelona. And it's not, it's not ideal. I want to be happier. I didn't, I didn't have a close relationship with my family. I'm not going to screw up what I did with my parents with my own kids. So living on purpose is really important. And then the second point that you're making, which is really well taken. I want people to notice this big point that you just made, which is don't live like your time is unlimited. Cause it isn't. And if you do that, you're going to discount into infinity and make incorrect decisions that you will almost certainly regret. And you will miss a lot of beautiful parts of life. And that really leads me to the main part of what I want to talk about today. I mean, you've got this big bestselling book and it's not new anymore.

• 9:29Arthur Brooks?

  I mean, when did it come out? When did the five types of wealth come out?

• 9:32Speaker 02

  February.

• 9:33Arthur Brooks?

  February, February of 2025. And it did really well and continues to sell really well. So just quickly tell me, what are the five types of wealth? And then I want to talk about how to get it.

• 9:45Speaker 00

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• 10:14Speaker 02

  So the five types of wealth, you know, think of as a new scoreboard, a new way to measure your life with the idea being that when you measure the right things, you can actually take the right actions to create your desired outcomes. The five types of wealth, as I lay them out, are time wealth, social wealth, mental wealth, physical wealth, and financial wealth. And we can dig into what each of those are. But just on a very surface level, time wealth is about freedom to choose how you spend your time, where you spend it, who you spend it with, when you trade it for other things. It's about that awareness of time is your most precious asset. Social wealth is about your relationships, those few deep, close bonds, but also your connection to circles that extend beyond

• 10:57Speaker 02

  the self, you know, whether through local, regional communities, spiritual networks and communities, et cetera. Mental wealth is about purpose and growth, and also about rituals to create space, the space necessary to wrestle with some of the bigger picture, maybe more unanswerable questions of life, whether through spirituality, religion, meditation, solitude, et cetera. Physical wealth is all about your health and vitality. And then financial wealth is about money, but with the specific nuance of really thinking about your definition of enough, what it means to you to have enough financially, the recognition being that your expectations are your single greatest financial liability.

• 11:41Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, this has come to you through experience, but you actually got a lot of this through the experiences of your parents and a lot of older people. I mean, I know you hang out with a lot of older people because, you know, I got an email from you over the transom some months ago, saying, hey, I like your work. Can I come sit in on your class? Let's be friends. I mean, and this is, this is the mark of a young guy trying to get wisdom before his time. Is that fair to say?

• 12:03Speaker 02

  I think that is fair to say. I have always been a big believer that closed mouths don't get fed, if you will. And so I've always believed that if you've done the work and, you know, you really admire someone, you look up to someone, just reach out. Like the worst that happened when I sent you that email was that you didn't see it, you didn't respond, or you said, no, hey, you can't, no, I, you know, it's not something I do. And I would have been in the Same place where I was. And what actually happened was you said, yeah, sure, come sit in on the class and we'll have coffee after. And look, here we are, probably just, I don't know, two, two and a half, three years later. Uh, you know, and I get to count you as a mentor and friend. Uh, and so I think for most people out there, it's just, it's a reminder that, uh, you know, if you don't ask, you'll never get.

• 12:42Arthur Brooks?

  Do you believe that you can speed up your wisdom this way by actually talking to people who are further along in life than you are? Is that, is that a technique that you'd recommend a lot? I mean, you're in your early thirties. You're 30 years younger than I am. Is this something that you'd recommend to people your own age?

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Speeding up wisdom is an interesting question. I don't think that wisdom is about answers as much as it is about the willingness to ask difficult questions. Uh, and so when people seek out elders, I think what they're typically looking for is the answer. Like, oh, okay, you know, Dr. Brooks, what, what is the answer to how I do this or that? And you give me, you know, based on your map of reality, uh, you know, what the answer might be. And the challenge with that is that the person who you're seeking out for the wisdom, their map may not match your terrain. And so if you try to apply these things directly, it might not actually work. What you should seek out when you're speaking to people who have more sort of earned experience than you is what are the questions?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Like, what are those universal questions that we are avoiding as individuals? I, you know, for me, that one question of how much time do I really have left with the people that I care about most? That was a difficult question that would have been much easier to avoid. That sparked this insight or this wisdom in my life. But it wasn't the answer necessarily. It was the fact that I was willing to uncover and then wrestle with the question that really led to it.

• 14:06Arthur Brooks?

  That's interesting because this gets back to this, this point you made just a minute ago, which is a lot of people live in kind of this cognitive dissonance. Um, of their stated values not matching their actions. When, when somebody says one thing and, and does another. What do they really want? Which one is reality?

• 14:25Speaker 02

  I think your actions create your reality.

• 14:27Arthur Brooks?

  Actions speak louder than words, I suppose, is my thing, right?

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, it's like the Benjamin Franklin school of thought that, you know, you are what you do. And, you know, look, there is a lot of talk on social media that as long as you have good intentions, you know, it's okay if you, you know, slip up here or there, whether it's as a parent or in your relationships or in your health or whatever it might be, and that you should give yourself grace because you had good intentions. And I think there is a space for grace in our lives and in forgiving ourselves that that leeway. But I also think we need to be able to hold ourselves to the fire and to recognize that at the end of the day, you are the sum product of the actions that you take. Not your intentions or not what you thought you should take or how you think you are as a human being. You are the sum product of your actions.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  And so being able to show up and convince yourself to just act in line with how your ideal self shows up in the world on a daily basis in the simplest way, a lot of good will come from that.

• 15:26Arthur Brooks?

  It's true, and it's interesting because this actually brings up two really important points from behavioral science. One, it actually is from Carl Jung. And Carl Jung's understanding of happiness is that people are happy when they know what their values are and they live, they live in a way that's consistent with those values. So unhappiness comes either because you don't know what you believe or you do know what you believe, but you're not acting according to it. And that's just to be really dissonant, and that's unhappiness. And so if you say, you know, I believe in God and I believe that there's a manifestation of God on earth, and you act as if you didn't, or you act out of accord with what you believe to be God's law, then you will, by sort of Jungian axiom, you'll be an unhappy person, is how he talks about that.

• 16:10Arthur Brooks?

  And that's a really important thing. The other idea that's in line with this is this Buddhist concept of right desire.

• 16:20Arthur Brooks?

  People, they, they want certain things, but they want to want other things. They want a happy marriage. No, they want to want a happy marriage, but what they want is a particular lifestyle. And so, and so, right desire is having a desire that's in line with your ideal desire. And this is, it sounds like a sort of complex here, but it really isn't. So the first step that I recommend to a lot of people who are listening to us right now is don't ask, "What do I want?", because that's what the world is telling you to do. Ask what you want. No, no, no. Ask what you wish you wanted. Your ideal self, Sahil is talking about here, folks, is not the person who's giving in to her

• 17:00Arthur Brooks?

  or his animal impulse, but rather to her or his moral ambition, which is not what you want. It's what you wanna want, and that's information that you need. Is this fair?

• 17:12Speaker 02

  That's a fascinating thought exercise and thought experiment. And it, it actually draws upon something that I've thought about recently, which is to just consider and audit how much of your quote unquote desires are being influenced and heavily formed by your environment, by the people around you. Uh, you know, I've often written or spoken about the fact that, uh, it is very difficult to, you know, play this game of creating your own scoreboard, of living differently, when you are surrounded by people who are trying to live one way. You know, the, the most classic example of this to me is like, if you were trying to live a simple life grounded in core, you know, really what I would view as moral values,

• 17:57Speaker 02

  you know, family and, uh, you know, spirituality and religion, principled values, uh, and you're living in New York City, a place that really glamorizes wealth and status and, uh, you know, where you send your kids to private school and where you vacation in the Hamptons and like, that's how we measure self-worth. It is going to be very difficult because the two are in tension and humans are my mete, right? Scientifically, we assume a lot of the desires and wants of the people around us. And so that in particular is, is sort of two things. It's one, it's make sure That you are finding a community of people who are aligned with you around these bigger picture values of the things that you are really wanting to want, because it will make it much easier for

• 18:40Speaker 02

  you to then go and align with that. And then two, make sure you are constantly auditing your ability to create that daily sort of forcing function on the awareness of who your ideal self is. The reason I say that that's so important is because I have this impression or experience in my own life that awareness is perishable. You know, there are a lot of things that I say, and I'm sure that you say, that people's first reaction to it would be, well, I know that. I know my relationships are, you know, the most important thing, or I know my time is precious. It doesn't matter if you know something in an abstract sense, if you are not acting on it at the testing

• 19:21Speaker 02

  point. You know, as C.S. Lewis talks about when it comes to courage, that courage is the value, every value at its testing point. That is what matters. And the only way you can act on these things at the testing point is if you are forcing that awareness to the front of your mind constantly, like recognizing who your ideal self is constantly, not just in the ease moments when the seas are calm, but also when it's the stormy seas, so that you can go and do something about it.

• 19:48Arthur Brooks?

  So give me an example. So let's make it tangible here, because it's pretty theoretical at this point.

• 19:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, for me in my own life, I have a little note card that sits on my desk in my writing area that just says, I will coach my son's sports teams. That's all it says, just one little sentence on it. What that statement means to me is, you know, sort of the version of who my ideal self is during this season of life, if you will. I have a young son, and I want to be the type of husband, the type of father, the type of community member who shows up to coach my son's sports teams. Now, knowing that, I can now flip a switch when I see that card to turn on that ideal self at any given moment. So if someone, you know, sends me an opportunity and it sounds really interesting financially,

• 20:35Speaker 02

  but it's going to require me to be away 300 nights out of the year. I could ask myself the question when I see that card, "Well, okay, turn this on." What would the type of person who coaches his son's sports teams do in this situation? I probably have to adjust that opportunity or say no to it because it's not who my ideal self is. It's a shiny object that I'm going to be naturally drawn to because of those mimetic desires. It sounds so sexy and attractive, but it's not aligned with what I want to want to be.

• 21:04Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and by the way, a lot of people listening to us are going to make a mistake along these lines. And again, giving yourself a little grace is important. Uh, when I was writing a book a few years ago, a book called From Strength to Strength, I was interviewing a lot of very successful people, which I've been privileged to be able to do in my life. And I interviewed a woman who at the time was about my age in her 50s, who was a billionaire. I mean, unbelievably successful in financial industries at the top, very famous. And she was telling me her story and I was congratulating her and she says, "I'm so unhappy." And I said, "Talk to me, sister," you know? And, and she said, "Well, I got everything I was wanted." And it turns out, I mean, my dreams came true and it turned out, I guess I had the wrong dreams.

• 21:49Arthur Brooks?

  I'm roommates with my husband and I'm cordial with my adult children. And everybody does what I say, but I think they're afraid of me. I don't really have any friends. I've fallen away from my childhood faith and it was important to me, but I never had time. I, I don't go to the gym. I go to the doctor who says I drink too much. What do I do, professor? And I said, "You don't need a Harvard professor to tell you what to do. You just wrote your own prescription. I mean, go away with your husband, take a souvenir in your firm, step back, you're financially independent, spend time with your kids, get into AA, go to the gym, go back to church." I mean, you want me to make a list? Well, she says, "No, because I know, I know." And I said, "Why didn't you do it?" And she's silent for a long time, Sahil, and she said,

• 22:34Arthur Brooks?

  I guess I always chose to be special rather than happy. And once again, this is this Jungian idea that your happiness comes from living up to your own standards, understanding your standards and living up to them without exception. And that was like a knife to my heart, man. I mean, I have spent many, many nights, especially when I was a CEO, at the 14th hour in the office instead of the first hour with my kids. And when my kids were your kids' age, I missed a lot of it because I was trying to be so special this entire time. And now, I'm telling you, I mean, I have a different set of standards. I don't travel on weekends. And the reason I don't travel on weekends is I want to spend the weekend with my wife. We're not getting any younger. And I live with my kids and grandkids, and I want to spend time with them. And so I miss a lot of opportunities on weekends.

• 23:19Arthur Brooks?

  And I'm really, really grateful that I'm making those decisions at this point. I wish I had started when I was your age, quite frankly. I wish I'd had a little card on my computer screen that said, "Little League coach", or whatever, right? I wish I'd done that. It's good advice.

• 23:35Speaker 02

  The important point in all of that is you get to decide for yourself where you want to go. And when you have clarity on the direction and on the life that you're actually trying to build, the actions in the days become clear as well. You know, it's exactly as you laid it out for, you know, for that hyper-successful woman. And it's exactly as you even articulated about your own journey recently with the family meeting that you said you had. When I heard you tell that story, the thing that immediately jumped out to me, for most people listening to this, as the most important part of that story, is that you had a family meeting to talk about the life that you were trying to create. That sounds so simple,

• 24:18Speaker 02

  but it is something that 99% of families will never do. Sit down as a family and talk about what is the life we are trying to build. We're all off chasing these things. We're trying to make money. We're trying to be successful. We're trying to be special in our own ways. And that is great. But make sure you know what it's for. What is the life you are actually trying to build? You know, I think it was Naval that said something to the effect of, "The only true test of intelligence is if you get what you want out of life." While I agree with it to a certain extent, I do think there's a layer deeper, which is to know what you actually want out of life in the first place. Not just get it, the getting it is actually easier than the knowing. The knowing requires that energy and that effort and some of those uncomfortable conversations upfront.

• 25:00Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and okay, since, since we're now talking about getting what you want, that we have now transitioned to the part of our conversation, we're going to talk about success. Because you know, everybody wants to succeed. But your point is they don't necessarily know what actual success means. So let's talk about that. Now, it would be easy to say success means getting the five types of wealth. Right, but, but, but let's be more specific about what success looks like in people's lives. Why people find success so unsatisfactory? Why so many people get depressed when they hit their goals? Let's talk about some of that stuff, because I think that that's a really important way for us to understand how to point our lives in the right direction.

• 25:43Arthur Brooks?

  So define for me, Sahil, your definition of a successful life.

• 25:48Speaker 02

  My definition of a successful life is quite simply, uh, being able to go and create the life that you have decided you want. And that is a sidestep, uh, for sure. But it is an important sidestep because what it implies is that I cannot tell you what success looks like for you. Nor can you tell me what success looks like for me. And by the way, that version of success will change across seasons of your life. Like this season of my life that I am currently in, my definition of success is being able to take my son in the pool at 1pm on a Tuesday. That means a whole lot of things across all of these types of wealth. It means I have the time freedom at 1pm on a Tuesday to be able to go outside and go take my son in the pool.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  It means I have the type of relationship, social wealth, where he wants me to do that. It means that I have a sensation of purpose and meaning around my relationships, around my work that I can. It means I'm healthy enough to do it, and yes, it means I have enough money to have a pool in my backyard. All of those things circle around what that level of success looks like for me right now. But when my son's 18, he's not going to want to go in the pool with me at 1pm on a Tuesday. So that definition necessarily is going to change across those different seasons.

• 27:02Arthur Brooks?

  So what's your mission statement, Sahil?

• 27:04Speaker 02

  My mission statement broadly is to create as many positive ripples in the world as I can. And what that means to me is, you know, a ripple, you throw a rock in a pond, right? A ripple can be local, meaning with my family, with my closest people right around me, through my interactions with them, that I encourage them to go off and live slightly better, and they go off and create their own changes out in the world. Or it can be global with the work and the things that I'm putting out into the world that hopefully are encouraging other people to go live more positive, fulfilling lives. But my impression is that when I go out and I have that at the front of my mind, and I take actions in alignment with that mission statement,

• 27:50Speaker 02

  I end up achieving the greatest things and I feel most energetic about it along the way. And when you talk about why people feel unfulfilled or miserable even when they achieve their goals, this sort of trap of success, so much of that surrounds the fact that all of our definitions of success are tied to some outcome. Like, I know you've written about this on several occasions. I have certainly in the book as well. The arrival fallacy, right? Like, you build up these things as being the destination. You were going to wake up and feel like, oh, I got to the top of the mountain. Ah, everything's better. My whole life is great now. And we know scientifically and anecdotally that it is not the case. When we, when we build up these destinations as being the thing, the turning point,

• 28:35Speaker 02

  we feel a massive letdown after achieving them.

• 28:40Arthur Brooks?

  And we know why. I mean, we know why because evolution didn't create a limbic system in our brain to feel constant unremitting joy. The ventral teg mental area of the limbic system gives you this sense of joy immediately after you get a reward and then homeostatically reset. So you're ready for the next set of circumstances. You're not able physiologically to get this bliss that comes from hitting a particular worldly goal. So it's not that you're an ungrateful wretch, although we are. It's that we can't muster the emotional energy, positive emotional energy to go on and on and on and on. And if we could, we'd be in danger. So that's worth pointing out, too. Okay, so that leads really to, I think, an underlying point that you're making, which is if it's not arrival at particular

• 29:24Arthur Brooks?

  goals, it's the process of living according to these goals and making progress, correct?

• 29:29Speaker 02

  I think that for the vast majority of people, your happiest life is found when you're engaged in struggle that you find meaningful for yourself and more importantly for others. That idea of uncovering your meaningful struggle is so central to how I think about living my own life. Like, I often talk about the value of doing hard things. And doing hard things is not about just any hard thing that you can go out and do. Like, it would be hard for me to shoot a nail gun through my hand. Yeah, it would hurt. It would be hard. There's no point in doing that. There's no meaning. It's not a meaningful hard thing. It's not a meaningful struggle. Parenting is a very meaningful

• 30:14Speaker 02

  struggle, right? Like, it is the most meaningful struggle, I would argue. Love, relationships, meaningful struggle, hard conversations, being present along that journey. Finding work that you find to be a meaningful struggle, something that you need to endure challenges and struggle now in order to create benefit later and to get better at that game over periods of time. That, to me, is where a lot of our happiness is unlocked. And so what I try to find and seek out in my own life is what are those few missions, if you will, that I can identify that I can play for a long, long time and be alongside people I really love on those missions. And so I kind of think of my life along three

• 30:57Speaker 02

  missions. I think I have a professional mission, creating ripples in the world with this content that I'm putting out, with the books that I write, with the speaking that I do. I have a personal mission around my health and the pursuits that I have physically that I'm going after and doing, and also mentally with some of the challenges I'll take on. And then I have a family and sort of relationship mission, which is the people that I love and helping them live their most fulfilled, best lives. I sort of think of my life around those missions and think about the meaningful struggle associated with each. And if things don't fall into one of those three missions, I basically say no to those things.

• 31:38Arthur Brooks?

  Hmm. Do you tell me more about this topic that you briefly touched on a minute ago, which is the struggle? Satisfaction is defined, and satisfaction, by the way, is one of the three macronutrients of happiness. Enjoyment, satisfaction, and meaning. Everybody who listens to the show knows this is how happiness is properly defined. Enjoyment plus satisfaction plus meaning. And satisfaction is the joy that you get from an accomplishment or an achievement or an activity after struggle. And so the struggle is proportional. I should say that your satisfaction depends on struggle, which is really important to keep in mind because no struggle, no sweetness. That's why good things come to those who wait, which means that waiting is not just a cost of doing business. Waiting is actually part

• 32:23Arthur Brooks?

  of the good thing that comes at the end of it, right? So tell me more about this sacred suffering business, Sahil.

• 32:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I had this realization. A few years ago, I took up running as sort of a new pursuit. I had always, I played baseball in college. I got a scholarship to play out at Stanford, and that had always been sort of my, my physical pursuit. And then after it ended, I didn't really have a new one. And so I started to sort of get antsy. And I took up running in 2023, and I decided I was going to try to run a marathon in under three hours. That was going to be my big goal, my big ambitious thing, right?

• 32:54Arthur Brooks?

  A pretty good goal, yeah.

• 32:56Speaker 02

  And, you know, along the way,

• 33:00Speaker 02

  In the race itself, the most interesting realization that I had was that there was this almost euphoric moment for me, not when I actually crossed the finish line and when I had achieved it, which I did, I ran 257. The euphoric moment was maybe 10 minutes before the end of the race, when I realized that it was going to happen. Like, I was actually going to do it, that the work that I had put in and these things that I was doing, I was in the most pain I had ever been in my life, really like in the depths and darkness, my peripheral vision had closed in, all of these things. But I knew that it was gonna happen. And I was like, I just need to continue enduring this and it's going to happen. I'm going to go and do this.

• 33:41Speaker 02

  I recently was reading this new book by Nicholas Thompson, your Atlantic colleague, who, you know, speaks about this beautifully, almost poetically. It's a beautiful book, The Running Ground, it's called. And he sort of references this idea across all of it. He actually had this beautiful line that was something to the effect of, in order to do it, I had to first forget that I couldn't do it. It was this idea of how often our brains hold us back from enduring the struggle long enough to get that benefit. And I have just found a lot of wisdom and life learning in the pain that we can kind of create in our own lives through these physical pursuits.

• 34:19Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Another thing that's worth pointing out is that one of the great barriers that we have to being able to find meaning in our struggle, to be able to build and learn and grow from struggle, is the ideology that pain is something that should be eliminated. And there's an eliminationist philosophy, particularly among people your age, that's quite foreign to people my age. One, I mean, every generation struggles to understand the next generation, but my kids are a little younger than you. And one of the things I noticed with a lot of their friends was that, you know, when they were sad or anxious, the first thing their parents did was put them in therapy. And I got nothing against therapy, but I also have nothing against sadness and anxiety, quite frankly, because I'm a behavioral scientist. And I know that these are manifestations of, you know, properly working activity of

• 35:02Arthur Brooks?

  a healthy limbic system, saying that you're sensing something that you need to be paying attention to. And that's good. I mean, if you got rid of sadness and anxiety, of fear and disgust and anger, you'd be dead in a week, man. I mean, that's a really bad thing. Plus, you wouldn't learn and grow. So are you countercultural in your generation when it comes to pain?

• 35:23Speaker 02

  100%. I think I'm countercultural in a lot of things. I've been sort of a an 80-year-old man since I was in college.

• 35:30Arthur Brooks?

  Nice.

• 35:30Speaker 02

  In a lot of ways, I've always gone to bed at 8:30 and woken up at 4:00. Very much always lived differently. And look, I think a lot of that comes from my background, especially my Indian side. My grandmother was extraordinarily wise when it came to this type of stuff. She, before she passed away, I asked her for advice she would give to her 30-year-old self. And she said, "Never fear sadness as it tends to sit right next to love." And that is directly tied to what you just said about the labeling of these certain emotions, whether it's sadness, or you know, struggle, or anxiety, as being bad and the other ones being good.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Now you're saying like, okay, well, these are bad, so I should try to get rid of them. I need to fear these things and try to eliminate them, reduce them, reduce the friction that comes from them. But when you do that, you don't expose yourself to the good. If you're not willing to endure the risk of sadness, you will never feel the true depths of love. You will never open yourself up in the fully vulnerable way that is required to experience the true depths of love. And so many things in life are that way. If you don't expose yourself to that struggle and that real pain, you will not feel the joy of that hard-earned win that you get on the other side of it. And so I do think that that message getting across to more people,

• 36:56Speaker 02

  that so many of these things in life dance on this razor's edge. And without experiencing the bad, you cannot possibly hope to experience the good.

• 37:05Arthur Brooks?

  I want to dig a little deeper into that because still you're talking about the bad as a cost necessary to get the good. I want you to go deeper because I know I've read you for a long time. That's not the entirety of what you think. You think there's, that the bad is good.

• 37:21Speaker 02

  I think that the bad is good in what it creates in you. And understanding all of those depths of who you are and what you are capable of, and recognizing that you can become friends with that bad, if you will. You know, I think that that draws upon a lot of Ancient practices, whether it's Buddhist or Stoic practices, it is embracing it as just part of who you are as a whole being. I do often phrase these things, and I think that there was a Stoic philosopher who said that some of these things should be viewed as taxes on all of the benefit that you can get. You know, they are costs of entry.

• 37:57Arthur Brooks?

  That's Marcus Aurelius to a T, but I think you're saying something much more Indian than that.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  How would you articulate it?

• 38:05Arthur Brooks?

  Well, I mean, the point is that there's incredible beauty in being fully alive. And being fully alive requires that you recognize that there are positive and negative experiences. As such, you should give thanks for your suffering. You should find the sacredness in your suffering per se. That doesn't mean you need to become a fucker, you know, lying on a bed of nails necessarily. It doesn't mean that you actually have to, you know, go around self-flagellating, but in point of fact, people do this all the time, man. I mean, I start every day with an hour in the gym at 4:45 in the morning, every day. For decades, I've been doing this and there's not a single day when my clock goes off at 4:30 in the morning. I'm like, it's a great day. No, I'm like, embrace the suck.

• 38:51Arthur Brooks?

  And at 4:45, I'm down there and I'm picking up heavy things and I'm doing things that are really uncomfortable. But the whole, in point of fact, after 30 years of doing this, I'm like, this frankly is awesome. Because I'm fully alive in these moments. That's what I'm saying. I mean, there's something beautiful per se about the suffering beyond just the cost of doing business, right?

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it is the recognition that there is a version of you that would dream of doing that. The 95-year-old version of you that is bedridden and not able to will dream and wish they could go back and do a 4:45 in the morning workout. I was on a hard run on Monday of this week, doing this hard workout, and it was freezing cold out. And I was in the middle of a really tough like rep of this run and I was running up a hill and I was miserable. I was like, this is stupid. I don't need to do this. I'm not really training for a race. Why am I putting myself through this? And it just so happened that this hill came over this crest and was sort of right alongside this cemetery.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  And I had this sensation while I was running by it of how lucky am I to get to suffer through this right now? Like, there are all of these people who lived their own lives, who have their own stories, all of these things, and they would give anything to have the opportunity to endure this suffering that I'm enduring right now.

• 40:10Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 40:11Speaker 02

  And someday, I would give anything to be in this moment.

• 40:13Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 40:14Speaker 02

  And so I do agree. I mean, embracing the fullness of who we are. There's this concept in ancient Indian culture of Kala Chakra, like the Wheel of Time, that time naturally goes through on a cosmic level and on an individual level, these cycles of creation, destruction, and then rebirth. And that you cannot bemoan any one of those, you know, elements, because they are all a natural part of cosmic time, of who you are, of your own being and of your own cycle.

• 40:44Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, that's important. And last, anybody listening to this think that that's an exclusively eastern concept. If you ever walk into the Notre Dame Cathedral, or any cathedral for that metal, there's a rose window, you know, Sahil, those round windows on the back of the cathedral? That's, and that's, that's to represent the ancient idea of the Wheel of Fortune. And if you look closely, typically, you'll see a king on the top, and you'll see a beggar on the bottom. And the whole point is, there's only one way to be stable in this world, and that is to be in the center of the wheel. The whole point is, you can go round and round and round, man. You're gonna get some vertigo doing that. Get to the center of the wheel, such that no matter how fast it's going, and which direction

• 41:24Arthur Brooks?

  it's pointing, you know who you are. And one of the best ways to know who you are is to have a rum line, a destination, and understanding what success means, to enjoy the journey, to articulate your wealth in these ways, and all the things that you're talking about. I've got a couple other things to ask you, but first, before I do that, I mean, you've got sort of a preternatural level of wisdom for a guy your age. Tell me about some mistakes that you've made.

• 41:50Speaker 02

  I typically find that I make mistakes when I jump at

• 41:58Speaker 02

  New and seemingly exciting things without considering the full kind of scope of the opportunity cost.

• 42:07Arthur Brooks?

  Give me an example.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  What they're going to require.

• 42:09Arthur Brooks?

  Like cold plunging?

• 42:11Speaker 02

  No, I don't ever regret cold plunging. I maybe regret it first when I get in, but certainly not when I get out.

• 42:17Arthur Brooks?

  Well, watch, you gotta watch the research. We gotta see what long-term exposure to cortisol spiking does. When you're my age, we'll see. But anyway, yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  I know. I think, I think that one's, I think that one's still TBD. Sana is pretty.

• 42:28Arthur Brooks?

  Sana is, yeah, that's studied. That's well, well, well studied for sure. He.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:32Arthur Brooks?

  Anyway, I didn't mean to get you off the track. Tell me more about your Pecadillo's and faults.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  I would say that the worst mistake I ever made was one that sort of led me to that point that I made at the, at the beginning of this, which was allowing my, a sort of creeping normality, if you will, to over the course of seven years, get my life to a place where I was living wildly out of alignment with what my true priorities were in life. We think of mistakes, like when you ask for someone, oh, what are your biggest mistakes or what are your biggest failures? We think of there being like, oh, a single moment, right? Like I did this one thing and it was a huge mistake. And the reality in life and you know, for people who are truly down and out, who have like found themselves under a bridge in some way

• 43:18Speaker 02

  is no one wakes up one morning and says, like, I'm going to screw up my life today. I'm going to ruin my life today. Right? It is the tiny little decisions and slip ups that have that feeling of creeping normality. It's okay in the days. And then when you stack the negative compounding over time, it's not okay in the years. And I just think that my worst mistake in life was allowing that to happen over a period of six or seven years. To where I didn't pull out enough to see the bigger picture that my course had gotten way off base.

• 43:54Arthur Brooks?

  So you started one degree off and then one degree off and it does this, right?

• 43:58Speaker 02

  That, that's. Yeah. Yeah. There's a, there's a rule around that in aviation. It's like the one in 60 rule for every one degree error in heading. You'll miss your target by a mile for every 60. Miles flown. So like the small variation leads to a huge miss when when you amplify it across time. Look, that to me was really a byproduct of just assuming the default version of what it meant to live a good life and assuming that my insecurity could be solved by some external thing that like a gold medal, if you will, was going to make me feel better about who I was. There's this quote from the movie Cool Runnings. It's like a kind of funny, silly Disney movie Jamaican bobsled team goes to the Olympics.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  And John Candy is the coach and he's speaking to one of the athletes and he says, "A gold medal is a wonderful thing, but if you're not enough without it, you're never going to be enough with it."

• 44:53Arthur Brooks?

  Right. Right. And so what point, what part of your life did this occur? What this six year period from when to when?

• 45:00Speaker 02

  2014 through 2021. I was, uh, it was my first job out of school. Um, so from there through uh, when I had to make the big change.

• 45:09Arthur Brooks?

  And, and you were already married by this point, right?

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I got married a few years into that in 2016.

• 45:14Arthur Brooks?

  Uh, how did you get back on track? Was it your wife who saved you?

• 45:17Speaker 02

  My wife was a huge part of it because my wife is, I would say, my number one truth teller in my life. Um, you know, the, the one person who I think she's known me, you know, we started dating when she was 15, I was 16 years old. And so she knows me, uh, better than I know myself in many moments and really, you know, was able to identify and see that my energy, like something was out of alignment and we needed to make a change.

• 45:41Arthur Brooks?

  Uh huh. Okay. So in other words, you're the guy who does all this really important profound stuff, gives people all this advice. You harvest the best ideas you can possibly find and retail them to audiences of millions of people, but you still screw up the bottom line.

• 45:54Speaker 02

  Always. I mean, this is all a constant process, right? It is a continuous process of adjustment, course correction and, uh, and struggle.

• 46:04Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Can I sum up our conversation?

• 46:06Speaker 02

  I would love that.

• 46:07Arthur Brooks?

  And then, uh, you're going to tell me whether or not you agree with each point. And I've, I've, I've taken notes on our conversation and I want to, I want to turn this into six lessons with Sahil Bloom on office hours. Okay. Six lessons to live by. Six lessons to getting happier and having a better life. All right. Lesson number one, watch the clock.

• 46:32Arthur Brooks?

  It doesn't have unlimited time. Act according to the time constraints that you actually have. Make decisions that make sense with respect to the fact that time is limited. That's lesson number one. Fair?

• 46:44Speaker 02

  Fair.

• 46:45Arthur Brooks?

  And that's across all sorts of things in life. That's not just how many Thanksgivings you have left with your parents. It's how long your kids are going to be little kids. It's how long you have until retirement. It's how long until you have until the end of this workday. It's how long you have between now and when you have to get up in the morning. Remember, time is limited. Lost the clock. Lesson number two. Don't be one dimensional. Now, what you told me was that the six years of your life that were, I mean, they were fine, but they weren't optimized, is because you were working on one particular or two dimensions. And then you wrote a book called The Five Types of Wealth, which is a five dimensional way to see your life. And you just told me that the worst part of your life is because you weren't living five dimensionally.

• 47:29Arthur Brooks?

  So the second lesson is don't live one dimensionally. Because if you do, you will not be getting to the best possible point and you'll be neglecting some of the most important things in your life. Right?

• 47:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can walk, walk yourself into a Pyrrhic victory. A victory that comes at such a steep cost to the victor that it might as well have been a defeat. Battle won, but war lost.

• 47:50Arthur Brooks?

  Lesson three, get in sync with yourself. Work to match what you do with what you say you believe and make sure that what you want is actually what you want to want. You need synchronization with yourself more than you need it with anything else in, on the outside. If you're going to have any prayer at this kind of success. Is that fair?

• 48:11Speaker 02

  Create the space to go and do that in your life, whether through prayer or through solitude, journaling, what have you.

• 48:18Arthur Brooks?

  Number four is, we know the types of wealth and we have a concept of success, but write your mission. Be able to state your mission. Why? Because that's your true north. It might change from time to time, but you need to know it is the whole point. So write your mission. Is that a good number four?

• 48:36Speaker 02

  That's a great one.

• 48:37Arthur Brooks?

  Number five, remember that you have a destination, but you're living the journey. You better enjoy it.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  That's probably the most important lesson of them all at some point. Thriving is a continuous journey, not an end state.

• 48:51Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I mean, even in business, I mean, I teach at a fancy business school. One of the things that we tell them, you're going to be a great CEO. Know the outcomes, but pay attention to the processes. And the same thing is true with your own life. You know, what does it mean to have a successful marriage? Well, to death to us part. Well, that doesn't mean that you're thinking the whole time about death. You should be thinking every day about being happier such that death do you part at some particular time. So journey, not the destination. And last but not least, and this is maybe the hardest one of all, is to embrace the suck. Man, because if you can't do that, you're not going to get the bliss. And it turns out that the suck is actually bliss. Fair?

• 49:32Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 49:33Arthur Brooks?

  I like the six lessons from Sahil Bloom. They're good reminders for me and probably good reminders for the rest of us. Thank you for joining us and sharing these ideas on Office Hours.

• 49:43Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me. This was the single most interesting office hours I've ever attended.

• 49:48Arthur Brooks?

  It's a low standard, I realize, but I'll take the compliment nonetheless. See you later, Sahil. Well, my friends, I hope you loved that conversation as much as I did. Let me know your thoughts. Once again, the way to feedback with us is on any of the platforms. We read the comments here on the team, even if they're critical, especially if they're critical. That's helpful to me, too. Or write to me at [email protected]. Like and subscribe on Spotify, YouTube and Apple. Follow me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, on all the other social media platforms where I'm always putting out different kinds of content and little clips of this and that, and some original stuff as well. And order The Meaning of Your Life. I hope you have a wonderful week. Thank you for tuning in, for staying with this show, for listening or watching every week if you can,

• 50:31Arthur Brooks?

  and for recommending this show to the 2 million of your closest friends. That's how we actually can chase the world together. See you next week.

• 50:48Speaker 03

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