Gov. Wes Moore Talks Trump, Democrats, DOGE — and Running in 2028?

Governor Wes Moore of Maryland was elected less than three years ago, but he’s already on the shortlist of potential Democratic presidential candidates for 2028. In 2022, the former combat veteran, investment banker and nonprofit CEO became just the third Black person ever elected governor in the United States. But with a large port and one in ten workers on the federal payroll, Maryland is particularly vulnerable to DOGE cuts and President Trump’s trade war. Plus, the state just had to raise taxes and cut $2 billion in spending to close a $3 billion budget deficit. Kara and Gov. Moore and Kara discuss how this approach to Trump has evolved, whether he’ll run in 2028 (like George Clooney and many others seem to want him to), his advice to the Democratic Party, and how Maryland’s latest tax reform and budget cuts could be a “roadmap” for the rest of the country. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kara Swisher?

  Do you work out with Pete Hegseth? Because he like, it's very performant.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 0:04Kara Swisher?

  No.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  I don't think he wants to work out with me.

• 0:06Kara Swisher?

  I'd like to see a push-up contest.

• 0:19Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Governor Wes Moore of Maryland. Moore is a former combat veteran, investment banker, and nonprofit CEO who's charismatic and photogenic. And he has a great personal story. Moore was raised by a single mom, got in trouble with the law as a kid, and then became just the third black person ever elected governor in the United States. Not surprisingly, he's on the shortlist for potential Democratic candidates in 2028. And more than a few Republicans seem worried about him. He is the name I hear from them more than anyone, and having recently spent some time with him, I can see why. He's compelling, well-spoken, just sharp as a tack, everything you want in a politician.

• 1:04Kara Swisher?

  And he's also very funny. People also, I noticed over this dinner, stare at him, which is really interesting. You don't see that a lot with politicians, but he seems to be somewhat of a star. But of course, politics is complicated, and Maryland has had to raise taxes and cut $2 billion in spending to close a $3 billion budget deficit. And with one out of 10 workers on the federal payroll, Maryland is particularly vulnerable to Doge cuts and the Trump administration. I'm excited to talk to him because I really do think new, fresh voices are needed in the Democratic Party, especially younger ones, and he's definitely at the top of that list. Our expert question today comes from another Democratic governor, who is my favorite, honestly. Sorry, Wes Moore and the rest of you.

• 1:48Kara Swisher?

  Maury Healy from Massachusetts, so stick around.

• 2:00Speaker 02

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• 3:20Speaker 01

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• 3:42Kara Swisher?

  Governor Moore, thank you for coming on, On.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Oh, it's my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this.

• 3:46Kara Swisher?

  I know, you were. You said that. We had, we were at a dinner the other night, and I don't know why you said that to me, to accept that you're charming.

• 3:52Speaker 01

  Because it's true.

• 3:53Kara Swisher?

  Anyway, there's a lot to talk about. Let me start by getting you to set the scene. President Trump recently hit 100 days in office. His approval ratings are cratering. His response was to call for pollsters to be investigated. So I'd love to know how You would assess where we stand today compared to what you envisioned when Trump was inaugurated?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, listen, I actually, I don't, I don't even need the poll numbers to, to know the kind of performance that he had. Cause I'm, I'm in my neighborhoods every single day, you know, I'm going around my state and I'm seeing where we've had thousands of people laid off. And by the way, like, we're talking about people who do things like make sure that our food is safe. You know, make sure that we're not getting cyber attacks. Make sure that, that veterans are getting their PTSD medication when they're coming back home. So it's like, I saw, I see the impacts of, of this administration every single day in my state. So I, I'm glad the poll numbers are now kind of keeping, are now giving quantitative evidence to what we are seeing every day in our neighborhoods.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  Is that, that, you know, Donald Trump, you know, was a, was a, was a vessel for the frustration, but he is not a vehicle for the solution. Because if anything, the only thing that has now happened since he has come on board is we have watched prices rise. We have watched economic opportunities compress. We've watched our allies retreat and we've watched people who had good, goods, good jobs, good jobs. That are now being challenged and being complicated because you have, you know, have an administration that's, that's leading by ideology and nothing, and nothing else.

• 5:25Kara Swisher?

  So I like that vessel, you practice that one, vessel for frustration, but not vehicle for solution.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  That's right. Like, like, I get it. You know what I'm saying? Like, I, I got it. Why people were like, oh man, you know, let's give Trump a shot. Because people are upset and they're pissed off and they should be like, I mean, like, there's, there's, there's a whole lot about the system. That, that was not worth defending because you cannot defend the indefensible. Like people, like I, I came up in a system that continued to remind them, remind me and my family how broken the system is. So like, I get the frustration that people had, but, but I think people are just very quickly realizing that Donald Trump never had a plan. Nor an intent on actually fixing those issues.

• 6:06Kara Swisher?

  Let, let's go through some national news items, because there's been so many, one thing you have to say about it, and there's been lots of news. Kilmar Armando Abrego Garcia had been living in Maryland for over 10 years before. Deported to El Salvador, you've said this is a case about due process. It's a case about are we going to follow the Constitution or not? But according to a recent YouGov survey, there are more Republicans who think the administration should not comply with the Supreme Court order to facilitate his release than there are those who think they should. If a large percentage of Americans don't care about due process, and it's a difficult word, it's not an easy word. I think snatch them off the street without, you know, a judge is probably an easier way to put it, but that's the word, due process is the word. Where does it leave us, though, if a lot of people feel that way?

• 6:46Speaker 01

  I think the way you can really strip this down for folks is, do you believe that we should follow the law?

• 6:52Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Right? It's just basically that simple. Or do we believe in anarchy? Do we believe that everyone should just do their own thing and there are no consequences for being able to follow the law or not? This is not a question about Mr. Rodrigo Garcia's past. It's not a question of what happened with him and his wife. It's not a question of any of those things. It's just simply, yes or no, do you believe that we have a rule of law that needs to be followed? Because what we're basically saying is, what I'm saying that I believe in due process is, he needs to be brought home and he should stand trial. And then let a judge decide what his fate is. And if a judge says he should be sent to another country, he should be whatever, whatever the judge files, we will follow that because that is basically the rule of law.

• 7:38Kara Swisher?

  Do you see that happening?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  No. And what does not make sense is Donald Trump unilaterally getting to say, he stays, he stays, he leaves, he leaves, she leaves, he stays. Like, that's not the way this is supposed to work.

• 7:50Kara Swisher?

  Do you think he's coming back, ever?

• 7:52Speaker 01

  We're going to keep on pushing for him to come back because I believe in the rule of law.

• 7:56Kara Swisher?

  All right.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  And I believe in due process.

• 7:58Kara Swisher?

  And you think you'll be successful? This guy's not letting him go unless Donald Trump tells him to.

• 8:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 8:02Kara Swisher?

  You do?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  I do.

• 8:04Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 8:05Speaker 01

  I do. Because I think that pressure and the will of the people does matter in all of this. I think that, you know, one thing that people will continue to realize is that, yes, is the president powerful? Absolutely. Right? Is Washington powerful? Absolutely. But right now, this is a moment where people are realizing the president's powerful. They're also realizing so are states. So are governors, and so are the people. And so I do believe that the power and the will of the people, and by the way, the will of the courts are going to end up winning the day.

• 8:35Kara Swisher?

  We'll see. I mean, ultimately, he wears people down. But Elon Musk, even though he's spending less time in Washington, and government spending has actually gone up since Trump took office, and it looks like most of his savings are non-savings and costs, and he's incurred costs. Even if he leaves DC, what they're going to say, Doge is still active, and it's closed a lot of agencies, it's created havoc everywhere. As you know, you have a lot of federal workers in Maryland. Both Maryland and Virginia have a lot of federal workers across different agencies. How do you put the impact of him on that?

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, and there is no, there's no state who has more exposure to what's happening right now with this federal government.

• 9:14Kara Swisher?

  Than Maryland.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Exactly, than with this Doge project, of Elon Musk's Doge project.

• 9:19Kara Swisher?

  NIH is in Maryland, yeah.

• 9:20Speaker 01

  NIH is in Maryland. Social Security is in Maryland. We have over 260,000 federal employees in the state of Maryland. We have over 160,000 federal jobs that are housed within the state of Maryland. So what they are doing, these are not glancing blows at Maryland. These are direct hits at us. These are direct shots that they are taking at my state, and they're taking at my people. And so there is nobody who is experiencing this more than Maryland. No one, no chief executive is experiencing more than me. And the thing I was very clear on, from Jump Street, is that I will, I get the relationship between state government and federal government, and I will work with anyone, but I will bow

• 10:04Speaker 01

  down to no one, ever. And I do think it's important for people in this moment to say, you know, we understand what they are doing and how they are trying to undermine, in many cases, not just democracy, but also legacies and livelihoods. But that does not mean that we just sit there and kowtow.

• 10:21Kara Swisher?

  So what do you do? Is, I think, I mean, this is real, I mean, even if they're ineffectual and performative and illegal, it's closing, it's, I talk to people, and my kid goes to a public school, every day, he's like, I may have to move to the Midwest. Person who works for the Agriculture Department, lives in DC in this case, but it still affects you, it is effective, you are a soft target in that regard.

• 10:46Speaker 01

  It is, but, but, but, but no, we're not. And here's why. Because while people are understanding the power of the presidency, they're also now seeing the power of governors. And I'll tell you a perfect example. So we have lost thousands of jobs in the state of Maryland because of these arbitrary and in some cases illegal firings that have taken place of our of our public servants who work for the federal government. But what did then we decide to do? Maryland has also been the most aggressive state in the country in being able to make sure that our federal workers are protected and actually streamlining our federal workers into occupations where there are available jobs within the state of Maryland, jobs in healthcare, jobs in education, and making sure we're reducing the red tape. So if you have a person who's qualified and interested, unlike, get rid of the red tape,

• 11:30Speaker 01

  get them trained up, get them their certification, and get them in a classroom.

• 11:33Kara Swisher?

  How many fired federal employees have you become teachers so far? Or do you expect to become teachers?

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Oh, we know for a fact that with the portal that we've had opened up, we've already had well over 2,000 entries into it. So whether it's education, whether it's healthcare, whether it's also the private sector, we're creating pathways into the private sector. Where, you know, for example, I was talking with a tech CEO. And a tech CEO said to me, he's like, listen, if there's a person who has a PhD and has a top secret clearance and is now an employee, I'd like to know their name because I'd like to bring them on. And so we've just been very aggressively working with the private sector, with the public sector, to make sure that our people are going to be OK. And frankly, having to get really thoughtful and aggressive when it comes to, you know, when it comes to making sure that that we can weather this storm

• 12:22Speaker 01

  that we know has come on board, which is the Trump administration.

• 12:24Kara Swisher?

  Do you work with Governor Youngkin of Virginia? I mean, obviously, that's the other, besides the district, and I suppose Mayor Bowser of DC.

• 12:32Speaker 01

  We have, I mean, I have, I have a good relationship with with both the mayor and the governor and a lot of my other governor and, you know, the governors from around the country, Democrats and Republicans. We have not, we do not have a joint, a joint agreement or arrangement with them. But I have a good relationship with these other governors.

• 12:48Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you smirked when you mentioned Governor, Governor Youngkin, just so you know. Why the smirk?

• 12:54Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, well, listen, I mean,

• 12:56Kara Swisher?

  He's a Republican governor.

• 12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, but but also it's more than that. We're competitors.

• 13:01Kara Swisher?

  You are.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  I mean, like, you know, it's not even just Republican like I I actually don't get into the whole Democrat Republican thing, because I that's not my background. I don't come from that. But he's a competitor, and I don't like losing. So yeah.

• 13:13Kara Swisher?

  None of you won. Beauza won the one the one all the all the sports stuff. So sorry. So sorry.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Oh, well, that's a whole nother story.

• 13:21Kara Swisher?

  The lady ran up the middle, just so you know, from both of you. But he had more egg on his face than you certainly did.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  I actually think this is going to end up becoming a big win for the people of Maryland, and a big win for the people of Prince George's County.

• 13:33Kara Swisher?

  It's closer to Maryland. You're right. We're building this new stadium. Yeah, yeah, it's true. She got everything, didn't she?

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, she's got a lot she's got to figure out.

• 13:42Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, OK, fine, whatever she want. Trump ran on his support. You would love to have that stadium. But you do have a lovely baseball stadium, the Orioles.

• 13:49Speaker 01

  We have. We have a fantastic baseball stadium. We have the Orioles. We have the Ravens. But I completely get that the commander, the Washington commanders, when they bought the team for over $6 billion, they came in and bought the team saying, we want to move back to our spiritual home of the Washington commander should be at Washington DC. Like, I get it. I understand it. But when you look at the deal that we also carved out to where they are paying for the deconstruction stadium, they are paying for the their underwriting and serving as master contractor for the redevelopment of the area, which is going to actually end up bringing even more attention and more support for the people of the community. I actually think this is going to end up being a big win for Prince George County.

• 14:29Kara Swisher?

  All right. OK.

• 14:30Speaker 01

  And better than and better than the situation they have right now.

• 14:32Kara Swisher?

  Good runner up speech. Trump ran on his supposed economic. They weren't going to go to Maryland. Trump ran on his supposed economic.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  And you're right. They said it when they bought it.

• 14:40Kara Swisher?

  Ted Leonsis, I'm going to Virginia. Ted Leonsis, and then he's in DC again. Trump ran on his supposed economic expertise. But so far as trade war, let's move to that. You used to be an investment banker with Citigroup and Deutsche Bank. What are your colleagues in finance actually saying about this and the long term consequences of the prolonged trade war?

• 15:00Speaker 01

  I mean, some of the most colorful language that I've heard about what is going on have actually been from people who I used to work with in finance.

• 15:10Kara Swisher?

  All right, tell me some of those words.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Because they're like, this is not economics. This makes no sense. And you cannot tell me that you care about the long-term deficit when you are continuing to spend at historic rates. You can't tell me that a way to create real measurements of economic growth is by going to your core allies and partners and creating this dynamite stick of instability that you're then throwing into all negotiations. And it's hurting real people, right? Who is actually going to be the real economic engine for our communities. It's hurting for us, it's hurting our farmers on the eastern shore, who are now seeing that their prices are so out of whack that we have farmers who have been around for over 100 years who have now told me that they're not sure if they can survive the next

• 15:57Speaker 01

  six months.

• 15:58Kara Swisher?

  For sales.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, right? And we're talking our poultry farmers, our corn farmers, our barley farmers, right? People who, and agriculture is Maryland's largest industry, and it is directly impacting our farmers. If you think about things like our port workers, who are working at the Port of Baltimore, where the Port of Baltimore really serves the entire country. Baltimore is the largest roll-on, roll-off port that we have in the entire country. And so when you're watching this huge decrease in goods that are now coming to the United States, that's less hours for our port workers, that's less reliability for our port workers. So this is hurting real people. So I'm not sure who's looking at what's going on right now and saying, this is a good thing.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  And the problem is, is that we have a policy that's not just ideological, it's stubborn. And it's not paying attention to what people are actually seeing right now because it's an ideology that is bait.

• 17:04Speaker 03

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• 20:08Kara Swisher?

  Democrats are not doing very well still. Even if Trump's numbers are down, Democrats are not up. And so let's talk a little about your stance toward Trump. Evolved very quickly in November. You were talking about finding common ground, as many were emphasizing partnership with the administration. By February, you said, "We're in full crisis situation," and that "it's time for us to take a moment seriously." What made you change your tone? Obviously, you're hope for the best and prepare for the worst. And again, Democratic Party's favorability is at a record low. The party itself is almost completely powerless at a federal level. Maybe perhaps diagnosed the illness happening here.

• 20:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, listen, it's a good question, and I've always believed that, you know, it's not my job to help the Democratic Party find itself. That's not why.

• 20:51Kara Swisher?

  Well, a little bit.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  No, no, and I don't, because, you know, I remember when I first, you know, when I was first, you know, running for office, I ran against people who were statewide elected officials. I ran against the former head of the DNC. And then there was me, right? The person who'd never been involved in politics before. And the thing that I was telling people is, listen, What I what I believe in is common sense. And what I believe in what I've always been able to do is to be able to, you know, bring real solutions. You know, to to real concepts. And I remember when I was, you know, when I was first running for governor, you know, my family, I had to convince them to vote for me.

• 21:26Speaker 01

  And and it was, it's not that we're not cool. It's just that I had to convince many members of my family to vote in the first place. So I don't I don't come from a political background or a party.

• 21:34Kara Swisher?

  So you were you were in this partnership mode. What first of all, what made you change your tone? And and you've said Democrats need to be careful about defending the status quo because the system wasn't working, as you just noted. If you lead policy on a purely rhetorical level, what's the message they need to send? And why did you shift your message, for example?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Well, part of it is because I think partnership actually means it goes both ways. Right? It's not if you're giving all the giving and you're not getting anything in return. To be clear and to tell everybody, that's not a partnership, guys. Because there's no, there's no, it's not reciprocal. And the thing that I continue to see is, you know, in our first weeks, in our first months of dealing with this. You know, I was literally finding out announcements about my people with news alerts. I found out that the President of the United States at a press conference said the FBI building is not going to go to the state of Maryland, which, by the way, this was a building that we had worked for a decade on, worked independent of politics through the GSA. And Maryland won that competition fair and square.

• 22:35Speaker 01

  A building that's going to be worth around $4 billion of economic activity, be about worth about 7,000 jobs. And the President of the United States said during a press conference, it's not going to go to Maryland.

• 22:45Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  What am I supposed to do with that? Right? That's not a partnership. And so part of the thing that I continue to realize was that I believe deeply in partnership. And I believe deeply that you can work together with people to create better results and partnerships do produce progress. But what I do know is this, if if you're the only one given, like, dude, that's not a partnership. And and so I think the thing that the thing that I am continuing to focus on is that I just want to make sure we're continuing to deliver results for the people of my state. Because I think more than anything else and more than any political talking points or whatever like that, like, I think. People are exhausted by that. I'm exhausted by it, right? And so I think you gotta be able to deliver results.

• 23:25Kara Swisher?

  What's the message then? What's the message? What would be, you need to at least illuminate them in some fashion emotionally.

• 23:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the message is this, is that who's actually producing results that are better in your life?

• 23:37Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 23:37Speaker 01

  And who cares? Who cares? When you're thinking about that leader and you look at yourself in the mirror, does that leader actually see you? Do they want the best for you?

• 23:49Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Are they thinking about you and your family and your, and your future? And so I just, I, I, I, I, I think that the, the thing that we've continued to learn from Trump is that the slogans are only gonna go but so far in all this. And it's why we've really continued to focus on what are the things that we can deliver for the people in our state. So for example, we talk about how, you know, we've been driving people into the workforce and specifically people and not only, but also specifically people who arbitrarily and illegally have lost their jobs. And we've now driven Maryland to, to not just, you know, we've, we've increased around a hundred thousand new jobs since I've been the governor. Maryland now that there was an epidemic, a crisis of violence

• 24:30Speaker 01

  that our state was dealing with, the homicide rate had nearly doubled in the eight years before I became the governor. The non-fatal shooting rate did double. Baltimore City went three, went eight straight years of three hundred plus homicides in Baltimore City. Maryland now has amongst the most impressive drops in violent crime that we have seen over the past two and a half years in Baltimore City, right?

• 24:51Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 24:51Speaker 01

  So we're watching results that are actually happening in people's lives.

• 24:55Kara Swisher?

  So results would be a word you'd use. Now, you've also said the economy is the number one issue everywhere. Um, when it comes to economic policy, though, Democrats will always be torn between the left and the center, always. The, uh, the system is broken. What, uh, the moderate approach, which you seem probably to represent, that doesn't promise a revolution and largely defends the economic system, or someone like Bernie Sanders, who's out with the Fight Oligarchy Tour, drawing huge crowds and making the case for democratic socialism with, uh, Representative Ocasio-Cortez. Like it or not, it's a bold message. What's the, what is the counteroffer that does excite people, results?

• 25:30Speaker 01

  I think, I think in Maryland, you're seeing bold results. I mean, think about it. Just in this past year, we did a complete reform of our tax code. And the way we really structured our entire tax code is by making sure that we were able to give the middle class a tax cut.

• 25:45Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  That for 94% of people in our state, they either got a tax cut or saw no change in their taxes at all. And so I think what people are seeing in Maryland is you're actually having bold and bold, bold changes, but that are producing real results.

• 26:00Kara Swisher?

  You also had a slash spending, correct?

• 26:03Speaker 01

  No, we did. And we ended up cutting around two and a half, you know, two and a half billion dollars, which is the largest cut that Maryland has made in its budget in over in 16 years. However, we were able to have two and a half billion dollars worth of cuts, the largest cuts in 16 years, and still make historic investments in public education and still make historic investments in public safety.

• 26:25Kara Swisher?

  So would your message would be results versus

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:29Kara Swisher?

  kill the billionaires essentially. So you know, a lot of billionaires, I know you probably don't want to kill them. As we know, you ran for people don't know, you ran a, you had to deal with billionaires quite a bit. As we know, Democrats did very poorly with young men in November. Trump won men under 30 by 16 points. Since then, you and a number of other Democratic governors are making a point to highlight initiatives to help boys and men. How do you close that cultural gulf between Democrats, the party and young men? MAGA has positioned itself as fun, aggressive, anti censorship, anti establishment movement, while Democrats are often seen as weak, condescending, humorless. Again, putting policy aside for a moment, because a lot of young men probably understand culture intuitively, but don't necessarily know about policy. How do you reach out to

• 27:12Kara Swisher?

  them? Obviously, by being you. And there's a bunch of, there is something to that. What do, how do you look at winning them back?

• 27:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, you know, essentially, he's like, you know, I'm not. You know, I'm not new to this, right? Like, this is work we've been doing for throughout our entire administration. This has been an area where I've said, this is not a, this is not a lane, it's a lens. Where I have every member of my cabinet and every agency now being able to focus on this exact issue. And it includes everything from how we're rethinking the ways we're supporting young people who are involved in our juvenile justice system. We have a program called Thrive, which is a remarkably effective program, but the true, which is helping the young people in our communities, urban, rural, and suburban, who have the highest propensity of either being the victim or the perpetrator of violence.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  What we know about them is this, is that over 98% of the participants in Thrive are boys, right? So, we've been able to put a real focus on saying, what are we doing to rehabilitate the young people that are involved in our juvenile justice system and get them re-entered back into society with a better chance for success? That we've been able to streamline getting more men involved in healthcare and education, places where there's often been a dearth of men inside of these occupations, and actually both incentivizing and creating support systems around them as well. And so, we've looked at it from every single angle within our state government of saying, show me the solutions and show me the investments on the things that we can lift up everybody, but make sure that our young men are not being left behind.

• 28:46Kara Swisher?

  So, those are more troubled youth, but it's a broader cultural issue. How do you meet young men where they are culturally? Because, you know, Obama was cool, like, it was, there they felt an affinity for him, but the affinity is for the Joe Rogan gang, maybe less so than recently, but...

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I mean, I think about, I think about the people who helped me, you know, become the governor. Like, again, I didn't become the governor because of the traditional political folks. I became the governor because we had this unbelievable swell of young voters, and frankly, young men who, who came out and supported us, and that has still remained a core part of my base.

• 29:27Kara Swisher?

  Tell me why, policy aside, what was it? How do you meet them culturally?

• 29:31Speaker 01

  You know why, and it's not...

• 29:32Kara Swisher?

  Besides look like them, like, besides.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  No, and actually, I do think it is more than that. Even though I think it does matter that people can look and see something, not just, you know, when they can look out and see something outside of a mirror that reflects their future. It helps them to be able to look outside of a window. It helps them to almost feel like they can look in a mirror and see the same thing. But I do also think there is, there's something, there's something bigger than that. It's that we actually go and see them. And they know it's authentic. Like, when I'm going out talking to young boys, it's not because I feel like it's going to gain me a couple of points on my approval rating. Right? When I'm out there going out and talking about issues with young boys, it's because they know it's authentic. They know it's real, and they know it's not the issue of the day, and they know it's not because the Democrats lost men in a last election.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Like, I don't give a shit about that. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is something that's very real for me. It's something that, it's part of the reason why I got in this thing in the first place. And so I think people can suss out authenticity, and they can suss out when it's real. And that's why I think it's working here, in a lot of other places where people are like, "Oh, yeah, me too, I'm going to focus on young men." And it doesn't have the same kind of, it doesn't have the same kind of resonance.

• 30:42Kara Swisher?

  Sure. I mean, it is the issue of the day, of course. Democratic governors, there's a lot of them, are all seeming to be potential presidential candidates. Governor Gavin Newsom of California, Jay Pritzker of Illinois, Gretchen Whitmer of Michigan are potential presidential candidates who are taking different approaches to governing than you might do. Let's do a mini lightning round for a couple of them to give us your take on their different approaches. Newsom recently launched a podcast where he's having friendly conversations with people on the extreme right, like Steve Bannon, Charlie Kirk, and Michael Savage. I should note, it's not Val Maga guess. He also had more white guys, people like Scott Galloway, Ezra Klein, and Tim Walz. He keeps threatening to have me on, but as yet, not so.

• 31:24Speaker 01

  You should go.

• 31:25Kara Swisher?

  He has asked and then totally ghosted me. So, thanks Gavin. What do you make of this kind of approach?

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Uh, I mean, I don't know. I mean... Listen, I mean, I think that however people are going out and trying to, you know, reach people or talk about the things they're doing, I mean, that's cool, right? I think everybody's gonna, everybody's gonna, gonna, gonna each their own.

• 31:49Kara Swisher?

  I want a review of that. What did you think of that?

• 31:52Speaker 01

  Of which part?

• 31:53Kara Swisher?

  Him interviewing, the way he interviewed them? I mean, specifically Bannon or Kirk or?

• 31:58Speaker 01

  I mean, I didn't, I didn't listen to it.

• 32:01Kara Swisher?

  Oh, wow.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  I wouldn't do it, and I didn't listen to it, so.

• 32:03Kara Swisher?

  No, I wouldn't do it. Okay, all right, I didn't listen to it. Oh, ouch. Pritzker has been very adversarial. On the other hand, in a recent speech, he told an audience, "Never before in my life had I called for mass protests for mobilization for disruption, but I am now. These Republicans cannot know a moment of peace." That's a totally different approach.

• 32:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:19Kara Swisher?

  Protest, what do you think of that?

• 32:21Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I mean, I think about what's happening in my state, right? Where my people have been under attack for these past 100 days. And it's, and it's all across the state. Like, we've been standing up these job fairs for Marylanders who have lost their jobs over the past 100 days. And I'll never forget, man, I went to one in Frederick, which is a purple slash red part of Maryland. And I was walking around, I was talking with people, and there, someone came up to me, and he told me, he introduced himself, and he said, "Actually, let you know, I'm a Republican." And he said, "I voted for you." He said, "I'm a Republican." And he told me he's now been laid off. And he said, he gets up every morning, and he puts on a suit, so his kids don't have to know that he's been laid off.

• 33:07Kara Swisher?

  That's a classic, yeah.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  That's crazy.

• 33:10Kara Swisher?

  Right, yeah.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Like, he's ashamed to tell his children that he's been laid off. And what I was telling, like, you have nothing to be ashamed, you did nothing wrong. This administration did. And so I just have, I look at the-

• 33:22Kara Swisher?

  So protests, job fairs versus protests, or what?

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Well, no, I think that everybody needs to find their way of being able to mobilize. And I think in some cases, it means that some people are going to go out there and they're going to hold signs on Saturdays. Some people are going to go out there and do letter writing campaigns and tell their friends not to buy Teslas. Some people are going to go out there and write letters to their representatives and tell them to actually grow a backbone and do their job. Some people are going to go out there and making sure they're supporting food pantries. And this past week, I was in Montgomery County, another part of Maryland, working at a food pantry. You know, who, by the way, have now saying that they are now seeing just as many requests as they saw during the initial moments of

• 34:07Speaker 01

  COVID. So it's just like, so I think everybody is finding their way to be able to stand up.

• 34:12Kara Swisher?

  Now, Governor Whitmer has gotten in a lot of trouble for being in that Oval Office. I think she just got caught there. But she does help secure funding for a military base in Michigan, saying she is working for this, Michiganers, just the way you're working for Marylanders. She had to cozy up to Trump. She's getting pushback from Democrats because of it. Is that the price of getting things done? I mean, is acquiescence like that in order to get something very important, by the way, not unimportant as the governor?

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Well, listen, I will always fight for my people, right? I will always fight for Marylanders, no matter where in the state that they call home. And I know, and while I did not see what happened with Gretchen, what I do know is partnership does not work one way.

• 34:57Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:57Speaker 01

  And I am not willing, you know, if you are not willing to be my partner in the work, it makes it very difficult for me to stand up and say I'm going to be yours.

• 35:06Kara Swisher?

  What if he had said, if you appear with me, I'll give you that FBI building?

• 35:10Speaker 01

  I don't do transactional like that. I just don't. I mean, like, if we're really going to build a partnership, we can build a partnership. I just, I think one of the things that I have a real distaste for in this political thing that I just recently entered into is the transactional nature of politics. I don't do that, and it doesn't sit well with me.

• 35:41Speaker 04

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• 37:29Speaker 06

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• 37:59Kara Swisher?

  So a broader question, who do you think is making a, not you, not, it doesn't have to be a Democrat, who's making the most compelling coherent case for American values in the face of Trump's onslaught? It could be anyone, politicians, intellectuals, someone from pop culture. Who do you think is someone you look at and you go, that?

• 38:16Speaker 01

  You know, it's, listen, it's a good question. I, I don't know if I'm as up on, on all of it. And I honestly, I like, I don't have, I don't have a punditry answer.

• 38:28Kara Swisher?

  Okay. Not a punditry.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  You know, I honestly though, like, real talk, I love what we're doing in Maryland.

• 38:34Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 38:35Speaker 01

  Like, I really do, because I think, because I think in Maryland.

• 38:39Kara Swisher?

  Just you?

• 38:40Speaker 01

  No, no. I mean, like, I mean, like, like, Team Maryland, you know what I mean? Because, like, I think we're actually producing results.

• 38:45Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  For the people of our state, despite.

• 38:48Kara Swisher?

  I like Steve Kerr. I like Steve Kerr and his basketball team. I mostly like Steve Kerr. I don't really care about sports.

• 38:53Speaker 01

  He's, he's, he's a good dude. I mean, I like him. I like him a lot. And you're right, his team is looking good.

• 38:58Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. So every episode we get, you, you need to come up with an answer for that one. Okay. Every episode, we get an expert question. For this one, we got a fellow Democratic governor. Let's hear it.

• 39:08Speaker 07

  Hey, Governor Moore, it's your friend, Maura Healey. And I just have been dying to ask you this question. You're somebody who works hard, plays hard, you go late, and yet, every morning, you're at the Naval Academy, 5:30, doing god knows what, and torching your body. Anyhow, where do you get your energy? And how do I get me some of that?

• 39:31Speaker 01

  Yo, so first, can I tell you how much I love Maura Healey?

• 39:35Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, she's the best.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  She's, she's like.

• 39:37Kara Swisher?

  Governor of Massachusetts, for people who don't know.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Sorry, yes, Governor of Massachusetts. She's not just, she's not just, you know, one of my absolute, absolute fave, fave governors. She's just such a good human being. She really is. So like, I'm a, I'm a huge, I'm a huge Maura Healey fan. You know, it's interesting, because when I, for me, and she is right, it is true, at 06, every morning, I'm at the Naval Academy. And I'm thankful that even despite being an Army guy, and I'm a, a former combat veteran, and. I have to, but I go down to the Naval Academy every morning to go work out with the midshipmen and go work out with the team there. And it's great because for me, it's not just physically testing and physically trying, but also what it is for me, it's, it's, it's, it's mental health.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  It's one of the only times in the day when I'm not like tethered to a phone or tethered to a briefing or whatever like that. It's just like, it's just you and it's them and it's, it's, it's your body, right? And you're just going after it. And it has been one of the, when people have said, like, kind of what's the, what's one of the really cool joys for you about being a governor? Real talk for me, it's been the fact that I start my morning, every morning at zero six in the Naval Academy. That has been one of the great joys for me of, of being the governor of Maryland.

• 40:56Kara Swisher?

  So how do you, he wants, she wants to know your workout schedule, but that's okay. We'll move on.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  So Oh no, but that's the thing. It's like every day, every day they're going, they're going to give you something else. You know what I mean? Like some days we're going to go out, we're going to go do a, you know, do a, a, a multi-mile run. For some days, we're going to go hit the weight room. For some days, we're going to go push sleds. For some days, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll go out and do the versa machine. Like it, it is, it changes every single day because actually one of the strength coaches is the person who puts it all together. So shout out to Fitz.

• 41:26Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 41:26Speaker 01

  Who keeps me straight.

• 41:27Kara Swisher?

  All right. So the Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse effort was hit by a container ship and now a huge new bridge is scheduled to be by 2028. Very briefly, an update on that is the Trump administration helping or hurting? Is there any way to rebuild it faster? Where is that right now? Very briefly.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, I'm, I'm really proud that, that Maryland really put on a case study on how to respond in a time of crisis because you're right that it, you know, two or two in the morning when my phone rang on it, you know, we were told that morning that just clearing the federal channel would take 11 months and we got it done in 11 weeks. And we are still able to find, you know, the, the bodies of the individuals who we lost and return them to their families and make sure they got the closure that they needed, make sure we took care of all the port workers and their families and the small businesses. So that was a, a true crisis that I think the state of Maryland. Really navigates way through remarkably. And we're thankful that even the support that we got from Congress, it was bipartisan support for the 100% cost share.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Uh, cause I told them that, you know, that it took, it took over 10 years to build that bridge initially, right? And I told them, we've got to get it done faster. We've got to make sure we're producing a result that's going to be safe. Uh, and we're thankful that Congress has given the support, so, um, we

• 42:43Kara Swisher?

  Is that on track now? You don't anticipate any problems?

• 42:46Speaker 01

  We, we, uh, there, there, there should be no issues because this has already been codified by Congress. And so we are, uh, we are, we are moving, we are moving full steam ahead to ensure that we can get the Francis Scott Key Bridge built as quickly as possible with all the safety parameters that are going to be required because we also know that the bridge that was built in 1975 is going to require new safety parameters for a bridge that's built in 2025. So, but we're going to make sure we do that and

• 43:12Kara Swisher?

  So you don't feel that there's any, there's going to be any pushback on that?

• 43:14Speaker 01

  We are very thankful that, that Democrats and Republicans in Congress have said that they want to get this thing done.

• 43:20Kara Swisher?

  Okay, we're going to wrap the interview by talking, going back to national ambitions. Obviously we can't ignore them. You're on the shortlist for Democratic presidential candidates in 2028. George Clooney says you're his new fave. I don't know if you know that. Stephen Smith said he campaigned for you. If he's not campaigning for himself, he might run against you. Plenty of other party bigwigs, uh, think you have what it takes. I do know Republicans are worried about you, as I told you at dinner. Uh, they seem to be focused on you quite a bit. Um, obviously Maryland is one of the bluest states in the country and, um, you know, there's lots of issues they can push out. One of them that you and I discussed was the New York Times report about the Bronze Star. Um, the paper book hadn't gone through.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  The Bronze Star that I received.

• 43:57Kara Swisher?

  That you did receive, that now you have, correct?

• 44:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, that is, that is correct, yes. The, in fact, the, the United States Army, once they realized that there was a mistake within the paperwork, corrected it in last November. Uh, what ended up happening was when I was told, uh, about it by, by a person who's now a three-star general, uh, that I was going to receive it, he had all the authorizations that he thought, um, that were going to be necessary and required. Uh, and frankly, I just know I just focused my time. When I got home, I was just thankful that I was able to get home, uh, and that I got home safely, so.

• 44:27Kara Swisher?

  And are you worried about being turned into a weakness, um, fairly or not?

• 44:32Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I'm thankful for my service. I'm thankful for the service that I did. I'm thankful for the service I did with the other paratroopers, you know, when I was leading paratroopers in Afghanistan in a combat zone. And if any, you know, people want to have conversations about my service, I am, I'm very ready for that conversation.

• 44:49Kara Swisher?

  But you're aware they have done it, John Kerry and Tim Walz and everyone else in some fashion, correct?

• 44:55Speaker 01

  I'm, oh, I'm aware, but I'm very thankful for, for my service that I was able to make it home. And, and I'm thankful for, for, you know, for the work that I did with the other soldiers in Afghanistan.

• 45:07Kara Swisher?

  Okay. So, last question. What should Project 2029 be? I mean, you don't have to call it that because it would be stealing from the Republicans, which is fine, I guess. So, the best case scenario for you and the Democrats take back the White House and both chambers of Congress, what would be the priorities for you, even if you were not president? What, to undo the damage done by the Trump administration or something fresh and new? So, if you were to say, Project 2029, what would it be for Westmore? What are the most important things?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  You know, it's, it's, it's not a real focus, because I'm not running. But, you know, I'm running for reelection in 26. But, but the thing that I do know is-

• 45:51Kara Swisher?

  Do you say you're not running for president? You don't know if you're running for president?

• 45:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not. But, but, I mean, but, but I am running for reelection in 26.

• 45:59Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  But the thing that I do know is, if you look at what we've done in Maryland, I think it's actually an important roadmap.

• 46:04Kara Swisher?

  Okay.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  That people are going to be paying attention to because, and I think the people in Maryland seem to like, you know, our numbers are strong, so people in Maryland seem to like what we're doing. The fact that we've been able to raise the minimum wage, right? The fact that we have driven Maryland to the lowest to historically low unemployment rates. The fact that we did the largest mass pardon in the history of the United States of America, 175,000 pardons for misdemeanor cannabis convictions. The fact that we followed up with expungement reform and being able to clean the records for individuals who are sitting there and still being punished for something that in some cases happened decades ago for misdemeanors. The fact that we've been able to create the first service year option in the- The history of the United States where every single Maryland high school graduate now has a chance to have a year of service to the state of Maryland.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  The fact that we now have created the first state-led, first ever state-led, place-based investment strategy when it comes to combating childhood poverty and making childhood poverty history within the state of Maryland. I, I think we have done some things that have been really thoughtful, really creative, and we've been able to drive real results in people's lives. And I think that's what actually resonates with the folks in our state.

• 47:10Kara Swisher?

  So what's the through line in that is what? If you were, I mean, you're saying you're not running. I assume that's yet. But you don't have to answer. It's fine. I don't care. This is a stupid game.

• 47:22Speaker 01

  I'm not running.

• 47:23Kara Swisher?

  What is the through line? You're not running yet. But what, what?

• 47:29Speaker 01

  I'm not running.

• 47:30Kara Swisher?

  Okay. You're not running. What is the through line in that? What's, what, when you say that, that's my last question to you. What is the through line of what's happening in Maryland that has implications that could be rolled out across the U.S.?

• 47:41Speaker 01

  Be bold. Be bold. You know, we only have butts along in these seats. You know, I, I have a clock that sits on my desk and it tells me right now I got 638 days left until the end of my first term. And I'm, I'm gonna run it back. I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask the people for a second term. But, um, but, but you only have butts so much time here. Don't waste a single day. Go be bold, right? And if, and if there are things that you know that you can address, if you can actually focus on things like increasing housing options and, and making sure you're getting rid of this, this dearth of housing that our communities continue to deal with. If you can actually focus on things like having a strong public education system and making sure that we're not completely condemning our children because of the neighborhoods

• 48:25Speaker 01

  that they live in about the schools that they're going to attend. If you can actually do things like increase economic opportunities and apprenticeship programs and get people a better pathway to long-term economic success. If you're not in the seat focusing on that every day, then why are you in the seat in the first place? What are you there for? And so my whole thing is be bold.

• 48:44Kara Swisher?

  All right. Governor Moore, thank you so much.

• 48:47Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. Good to see you again.

• 48:54Kara Swisher?

  On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you get results. I still don't think that's quite the message we want to send. If not, you don't get a stadium. You're the runner up. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 49:40Speaker 03

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• 50:25Speaker 06

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• 50:56Speaker 06

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