Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher The Daily Show's Jordan Klepper Takes on Next-Gen MAGA and the Manosphere About this episode Few people have as much knowledge of the MAGAsphere as Jordan Klepper, co-host and correspondent for The Daily Show. Klepper has been covering President Trump and his supporters since the 2016 presidential campaign, from rallies across the country to the steps of the Capitol building on January 6, 2021. One difference that he — and others — have noted between Trump 1.0 and 2.0 is the growing number of young people, especially young men, who are now in the Republican fold. Kara talks to Klepper about his upcoming special, The Daily Show Presents: Jordan Klepper Fingers the Pulse: MAGA: The Next Generation, and what he learned about young conservatives on his tour of college campuses, UFC events, and Spring Break beaches. They discuss "manosphere" influencers such as Charlie Kirk, Andrew Tate, and Joe Rogan, which progressive voices (like Hasan Piker) might break through, and whether Hollywood and comedy are veering to the right.
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Transcript 11,729 words · 8 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Kara Swisher? You are the fourth Daily Show host I've interviewed. I have a thing for you people.
0:05 Speaker 01 Collect the whole set. Congratulations.
0:07 Kara Swisher? I will, yes.
0:07 Speaker 01 I'm a little offended I'm this low on the totem pole. But if you had to choose one, if you had to pick one, your favorite--
0:12 Kara Swisher? Jesse, obviously.
0:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, OK, fair enough.
0:14 Kara Swisher? Come on, come on. I'm a lesbian, I have to pick the girl.
0:28 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is The Daily Show's co-host and correspondent, Jordan Klepper. Klepper started on The Daily Show in 2014, and he covered President Trump's 2016 presidential campaign from the trail into the White House. After a brief stint on his own late, late show, The Opposition, in which he played right-wing pundit in kind of an Alex Jones Infowars spoof, Klepper came back to The Daily Show as a correspondent in 2019, just in time to finger the pulse of Trump's 2020 reelection campaign. Klepper went to Trump rallies across the country, following MAGA supporters from parking lots in Midwestern towns all the way to the steps of the Capitol Building on January 6, 2021, and then he got the hell out of there.
1:12 Kara Swisher? Since 2023, Klepper has been part of the rotating roster of these Daily Show hosts, manning the desks alongside Jon Stewart. But when Trump decided to run again, Klepper was the obvious choice to go back in the field, reuniting with his old MAGA friends. I really like Jordan Klepper, he makes me laugh. I'm a big fan. I like when he goes out into MAGA land and comes back with these very funny interviews with people on the street as a field reporter. One of the differences that he and others have noted between Trump 1.0 and 2.0 is the growing number of young people, especially young men, who are now in the Republican fold. MAGA, the next generation, is the name of Klepper's latest special, which comes out next week. I'm looking forward to talking about what he's uncovered in this reporting journey, the trends he's seeing in this younger generation of Trump acolytes, the impact of the manosphere
1:55 Kara Swisher? influencers like Joe Rogan and Charlie Kirk, and the role the conservative comics are playing. Our expert question this week comes from CNN's Ellie Reeve, who has also reported deeply on the negative impact of social media on young men. I also want to talk to Klepper about the future of late night and whether this brand of political satire has the same pull that it used to have. Klepper is funny, but also very informed and thinks deeply about stuff. It's going to be a great conversation, so stay with us.
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4:15 Kara Swisher? All right, Jordan, thank you for being on On. We have a lot to talk about, including your new special, which I am so excited for. I do a podcast with Scott Galloway. He talks about the Manosphere all the time. It's coming out next week. But first, I want to get your take on some news right now to start with. You're hosting The Daily Show this week. Which of these stories are gaining the most traction? I'm going to give you a list. The US-China trade deal, the House Republicans proposing cuts to Medicaid, President Trump's golf tour and luxury 747 airliner, the Qataris want him to replace Air Force One with, the top buyers of the Trump meme coin winning the White House dinner, or none of the above?
4:49 Speaker 01 And this is all what happened in the last 20 minutes.
4:51 Kara Swisher? 20 minutes, exactly.
4:52 Speaker 01 Recall, right?
4:53 Kara Swisher? Exactly.
4:53 Speaker 01 Yes, we had a morning meeting a few hours ago, looking at many of these stories. You know, the up and down stock market to us, we're like, that's, that's gonna be an ongoing story.
5:03 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
5:04 Speaker 01 For the next 700 years. So we're less eager to jump on board that. For today's show, these images were coming back of his Middle East trip.
5:13 Kara Swisher? Mm-hmm.
5:13 Speaker 01 Which Donald Trump going to Saudi Arabia, where he suddenly is treated like the, the crown prince that he wants to be.
5:20 Kara Swisher? Mm-hmm.
5:21 Speaker 01 Surrounded by horses and swords, is the type of, it's the type of vibe that I think Trump just feels most at home.
5:26 Kara Swisher? Yeah, remember the globe that they were all around that weird?
5:28 Speaker 01 Get around the orb.
5:29 Kara Swisher? The orb.
5:30 Speaker 01 I mean, we're all taking bets right now. If there's an orb, if he's gonna touch it, what kind of powers he might get from it. So we are, we're on orb duty right now. If I step out of this podcast at any point, you know an orb is being touched or close to being touched.
5:41 Kara Swisher? So orb would be your hope.
5:42 Speaker 01 Orb would, orb is, you start with orb, then you talk, talk about $400 million Air Force One grift.
5:48 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
5:49 Speaker 01 That's up there. And just Trump in the Middle East is something we, we're keeping an eye on and trying to kind of, right now, we're crafting a show around his big trip.
5:57 Kara Swisher? The giant bag of money. How big is his bag of money? Where he's gonna, where he's gonna put it?
6:01 Speaker 01 You know, all those things are very important topics.
6:03 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
6:04 Speaker 01 But then an image came out that there's a portable McDonald's truck that is set up in Riyadh right now, which as a comedy show.
6:13 Kara Swisher? For him.
6:13 Speaker 01 All eyes are brought to that. If we are really bringing fast food to Donald Trump, you know, as perhaps a Trojan horse, we wanna watch that breathlessly.
6:22 Kara Swisher? Yeah, see, this is the great news. This is the news of the day. You know, one of the things that's good for you all, and it's good for comedy, is Trump 2.9 is flood the zone feels like the theme of the administration at this point. I spoke to The Atlantic's Ashley Parker on the show last week, and she said that, she just did the interview with Trump, the, the long interview. She said that Trump's team admitted its strategy is meant to screw with the press, knowing they won't be able to cover everything. So this is good for The Daily Show, presumably, with so many stories. Because you don't really care if it's a distraction, because a distraction, see orb, is something you're interested in.
6:54 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, Carol, we are still, at The Daily Show, we are still human beings who have to exist in a world that Donald Trump floods the So our souls are bombarded with with chaos and stories. I think as as a comedy show, it is good to have input and things to craft comedy out of. And Trump has never disappointed with that. But there's a pace you have to get used to. You know, Trump has never left the news cycle since he jumped into it 400 years ago. But when he got back in for Trump 2.0, I think there was a shock to the system and sort of a reminder of the pace that he was moving at. And again, you could feel it. Again, we are a fake news show whose bias is towards finding comedy. We take it very seriously, but we are still trying to like find where the humor is, some perspective and a take that we can have.
7:37 Speaker 01 But we understand what what other newsrooms are going through. And it is, it's just a constant bombardment where your your attempt to add something to a story that's ever changing and also getting more distracting.
7:47 Kara Swisher? You think you have a great story and then he does something else.
7:49 Speaker 01 For sure.
7:50 Kara Swisher? Like suddenly RFK jumps into an E. coli pond, for example.
7:54 Speaker 01 Can you believe that?
7:55 Kara Swisher? Yes, I can. Yes, I can.
7:56 Speaker 01 That's not on, that's not on our comedy show tonight. RFK Junior is swimming in a sewer pond, a sewer river.
8:04 Kara Swisher? Sewer stream, stream.
8:06 Speaker 01 Sewer stream, a creek, a creek.
8:08 Kara Swisher? Creek of stream, creek of poop, yeah.
8:09 Speaker 01 A shit creek.
8:10 Kara Swisher? Yeah, yeah, shit creek, yeah.
8:11 Speaker 01 He's, he's, he's swimming in a shit creek. And the comedy show is like, I'm sorry, we already have too much stuff to deal with.
8:17 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
8:17 Speaker 01 With that going on.
8:19 Kara Swisher? Are you not going to get back to the shit creek?
8:20 Speaker 01 I, you know.
8:22 Kara Swisher? It might be gone.
8:22 Speaker 01 As God is my witness, we will get to shit creek.
8:24 Kara Swisher? So one of the things you did say, you know, your, your fake news, but a lot of viewers, including my two older sons, think The Daily Show is the main source of news. And actually, you do do a great and trenchant job of analyzing the news. Among many, you have gone out into the Magaverse. You were a field reporter, really, for Daily Show. You covered President Trump's 2016 campaign and then 2020 and so many Maga. What's the number of Maga rallies you've been to?
8:49 Speaker 01 It feels like infinity. I, I started going in, yeah, 2015, all the way up until now. So it's, I, I don't have a number, but it's, it feels like all of them.
8:58 Kara Swisher? Right. And then you also were at the Capitol on January 6th.
9:01 Speaker 01 Working.
9:01 Kara Swisher? Working.
9:02 Speaker 01 I was working.
9:03 Kara Swisher? Right.
9:03 Speaker 01 On January 6th.
9:04 Kara Swisher? Yep, yep.
9:04 Speaker 01 Although, I don't know, maybe I was also insurrectioning. If that gets me a pardon and a Fox News job, I'll take it.
9:10 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you did take a pen from Nancy Pelosi's office. But then, but it was all over in 2021. You were sitting in an empty parking lot. I want to play this clip from the Into the Magaverse roundup that you did.
9:22 Speaker 01 So, that's it. The MAGA rally journey is over. And President Trump's ending is not unlike that of the ancient King Ozymandias. His wrinkled limp and sneer of cold command, looking across this vast emptiness that was once his empire.
9:39 Speaker 01 Lock on his works, ye mighty in despair!
9:45 Speaker 01 Anyway, I'm just gonna stay here so I can be first in line when the rallies start up again in 2023. Or when Don Jr. runs in '28. I'll always be here, I guess.
9:57 Speaker 01 This is my life now! Ha, ha, ha!
10:00 Kara Swisher? Nothing but sand remains.
10:01 Speaker 01 Why did you have to play that?
10:02 Kara Swisher? I had to.
10:03 Speaker 01 That's taking me to a dark spot.
10:04 Kara Swisher? I know, it is, it is. But here you are again. That was the point. Most people had written Trump off. Sand, sand, only sand remains, or whatever the last line of that is. And not to call you a prophet, but you really did think there was a Trump 2.0. You kind of called it.
10:18 Speaker 01 You know, it was interesting going out after, after being there on January 6th.
10:24 Speaker 01 That felt like, you know, honestly, what has become even infuriating is watching the conversations on January 7th, hearing what Lindsey Graham said about that day. And there seemed to be a moment where
10:33 Kara Swisher? Enough!
10:34 Speaker 01 The world, the left and the right, saw something happened and could admit that they existed in the same plane of reality and therefore were moving forward beyond it. And so it did, for a moment, feel like, maybe there's a clean break from what this is. And I went to a few events after January 6th. And what was amazing was just how quickly that narrative was shifting on the ground.
10:55 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
10:55 Speaker 01 And that narrative, it never actually settled as to whether it was Antifa, whether these people were heroes. You know, it became sort of this muddled mess of what's supposedly happening. Just accountability was nowhere to be found, but the narrative kept bouncing around. But it jumped so quick, to the point that That I think within, within a month after January 6th was like, oh, this is, this is not settling in a way that we are going to regard it as history and move on and/or learn from it. This is still being churned up in a way where the people who have seen this are creating their own realities out of it. This, this is not dying. It's, it's being birthed anew.
11:28 Kara Swisher? Because Kevin McCarthy was down there pretty quickly.
11:31 Speaker 01 I mean, I mean, he went down, yeah, like a few weeks later, he went down.
11:33 Kara Swisher? Were you surprised by that?
11:34 Speaker 01 Again, I'm rarely surprised by any of this. I think the part of me that has a modicum of surprise, it's the 14-year-old me that has a little bit of hope for like American institutions and the things that I was taught, that our, our better angels come through and they're moving on some sort of arc. And, and again, that, in that moment in January 6th, I was like, oh, perhaps this is us moving beyond that. Now we're looking at, at 2.0 and, and, and yeah, the cynicism has, has stayed with me. I, I, I've, I've watched these conversations shift.
12:04 Kara Swisher? They didn't want to leave the story, you know, you know, I remember my grandmother, she's like, the stories, right? She was watching soap operas. But the, to me, he's building a narrative, right? And that's kind, it's like a movie or a TV show or something like that, which he's good at. But it feels like you were preparing for Trump 2.0 in 2022. You took your Jordan Klepper Fingers the Pulse, which is the best, I think, production name I've ever heard. Reporting to Hungary for the special you wrote, hosted and produced. President Trump obviously buddied up to Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban in the first term. The European Parliament had declared Hungary to be an autocracy. Talk about why you wanted to go there and what was your biggest takeaway from that trip? Because you were still going, you were still searching for your MAGA at that time.
12:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, at, at that time, you know, Orban, it feels like, feels like quite some time ago, but Orban was being welcomed to CPAC, which again, you know, that Overton window keeps, keeps nudging over. And a year before that, the idea of Viktor Orban being supported and lauded in the conservative movement was ridiculous. And, and then suddenly Orban was being talked about at CPAC. And so we went to CPAC and we talked to people about it and this authoritarian rule and how people saw what was happening in Hungary. And it felt for us like the writing's on the wall. This is where the conservative movement is heading. These are the people they're putting up on their pedestals. There's no surprise because people have been talking about what they want for years. And if at CPAC they're saying, this is the guy, this is what we want Donald Trump to do, then it's like, well, let's go see what Viktor Orban is doing.
13:31 Speaker 01 It's right there. Also, let's be honest, Budapest, lovely city. They shoot a lot of wonderful films there. So like, you know, I'm half looking for a great vacation as well.
13:40 Kara Swisher? Much goulash, yeah.
13:41 Speaker 01 Four Seasons Budapest, you gotta spend time there. It's really, it's where you meet all the, the big swinging dick Hollywood execs there. You dabble in autocracy and then you hang out with the cast and crew of Jack Ryan.
13:53 Kara Swisher? Right, that's right, that's right. They film there.
13:55 Speaker 01 That's literally what it is.
13:56 Kara Swisher? So do you, what did you imagine after going to Hungary was gonna happen here? And how do you assess the situation right now?
14:05 Speaker 01 I think what was, what was really interesting to see was the way in which they, they controlled the public education there. The liberal school that had been shifted and moved and frankly, left and went to Vienna. Like, I think there was, there was so much that I noticed on the ground that was like, oh, this, my dark vision of what an autocracy looks like is perhaps some caricature of, of old Russia. Or you go there and, and everything is shut down, you have no access to anything. And it was like, oh no, this, this feels like a European city. I understand how this still works as a city. I also understand how people come in and out of this city that feels like, like, like a normal American city as well. But then I'm like, oh, so what, what happened to the universities and the professors there? And you hear the limitations they had, partially put on by the government, but also partially
14:50 Speaker 01 by the government shutting things down so that they had to move? And that they went to Austria at that time? I think, talking again to people who were part of the LGBTQ community there, like, things started to shut down in a way that we quickly saw happening over here as well. It was like, oh, the language starts to get changed. Oh, the constitution starts to get written so that the language is changed. Or suddenly the rights that you have have now been stripped away from you. And so it's not as if you are in, in jail right now, but suddenly you have a, a child or you're in the middle of an adoption process. And suddenly- That has now ended. And now you suddenly feel that now you're getting discriminated against at your job because the writing has shifted. And now the media, is the media, can they not say anything? No, they could be critical of Orban. Who can? That guy, that one guy. He's the only guy who has a platform to talk.
15:35 Speaker 01 And because of the state-run media, state-funded media, it's suddenly, it encompasses everything people interact with and see. And so then when we talked to the person who was running against Viktor Orban, and he couldn't, he couldn't get a microphone in front of him to get his message out. And so you saw a deadening of the culture.
15:51 Kara Swisher? Do you see that happening here? Do you see, did you, as you come back here, as you started doing this next generation, this special, it's called MAGA, The Next Generation. It's a special coming out next week. Did you anticipate or see that that's happening here?
16:05 Speaker 01 Yes. I mean, I do think in terms of, oh, the language is suddenly being shifted. Again, we talked, we mentioned the Overton window here. It's like, oh, we're getting more and more comfortable with the land grab that Donald Trump has taken. With this special, you know, what we were seeing with electoral results was so many young kids kind of leaning right, especially this manosphere, this bro world. And so for us, it was, it was like, oh, wow, are people buying into this more than they were before? Is this suddenly cool? Is this, is this hip? Is this what the magic trip Trump has pulled? And, and the cynic in me thought I would find just hands down people who were mini Marco Rubios, mini Ted Cruzes, mini Donald Trumps in 18-year-old form.
16:50 Speaker 01 And there were elements of it, and there was conservatism that was there. I think what I often see at Trump rallies was people are drawn to the tribalism, the community that is there, the identity that they get.
17:00 Kara Swisher? The fun.
17:01 Speaker 01 It's fun. It's fun.
17:02 Kara Swisher? That was really interesting. So the impetus for doing it was to find out, like, and did you have a goal going in to change their minds or what was, or just to see?
17:10 Speaker 01 It was mostly to see, yeah. I mean, I feel like when I, when I go to the Trump rallies, it's, they're just a plethora of old people hypocrisy.
17:17 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
17:17 Speaker 01 And so to hear that suddenly college kids think Charlie Kirk is cool is a question. And the larger question I had is like, is there a true conservative ideology embedded in these 18? 18 year olds, is that what they're, are they drawn to an ideology, a morality that is there? Or is it just for clicks? And as you go in there, like, I was impressed with the empathy and humanity of the 18 year olds that I talked to. I thought they would be cynical and potentially cruel. And what I realized, the cruelty is something you learn. It's something that's embedded by these older folks who are manipulating that space. So when I went to Texas A&M and I talked to people, very conservative school, very religious school. And they have, many of the people I talked to had, you know, conservative leanings. But they were very open.
18:03 Speaker 01 They were very open to hear what people had to say. And Charlie Kirk comes on campus and he's famous. They've seen him online and on TikTok, he gets clicks. And he shows up and it's a thing. He throws out a bunch of hats. People grab the hats, they put on the hats, everybody's wearing Trump hats. And you're like, it's not that you don't have conservative leanings. But I see you right now, and I see you creating an identity for yourself, based around a free hat, based around somebody who gets attention, which for an 18 year old, attention is the king of all kings. You want to be an influencer and you find somebody who finds success in that. And there's nobody in a liberal space who's speaking to you. And so I see you starting to graft onto that persona. But what I don't see is a cruelty or a meanness that old me was projecting onto you.
18:48 Speaker 01 I see an openness. I see somebody who doesn't know.
18:51 Kara Swisher? When you were pushing them, they're like, oh yeah, good point. Like, you know, I mean, it wasn't sort of the anger thing. It was, it was, well, yeah, you're right.
18:59 Speaker 01 More often than not, when I asked them why they were seeking out Charlie Kirk, they're like, he explained things so well. He's so interesting. He thinks about stuff. It's like, oh, you're curious. I loved Christopher Hitchens back in the day and I loved his contrarian nature. I loved that he was articulate. I don't think I loved his politics, but I was compelled by an articulate voice that these kids earnestly crave.
19:20 Kara Swisher? He has answers, right? He has answers to very, life is complex. And if you could give a short answer or something easy. And it's also put you in a question, which I think is really interesting. I was talking to Charlemagne the God, who's often on Daily Show. And last night, he was making a really good point. It's like, the problem with the media is they ask the question, is it unconstitutional to take the plane? Like, they're asking it like a question, so that puts it in the minds of people that is that, we should ask that question. When in fact, the answer is, yes, it fucking is. Like, stop. Like, like, why are we doing that? And so, these kids are looking for certainty, I would imagine.
19:54 Speaker 01 They are looking for certainty. They want somebody to tell them how to find, like, where I have empathy, it's hard to leave college and find your identity, find a job, find purpose. And this person who you know is famous comes to your campus, and they tell you, I have the answer, take these tools, they glom onto that. Also, there's a, there's a trick that happened. Again, we're at this Turning Point event. I, I thought it was just about, these people, they're, they're learning conservative ideology because Laura Trump was there, Charlie Kirk was there, and they're talking about conservative talking points. But they're also debating people. The point of those things is that it's an open debate for college students.
20:30 Kara Swisher? Right.
20:31 Speaker 01 And what ends up happening is, like, on its surface, I love that there's debates happening. I think there should be debates happening on campuses. It's great that that's happening, and you don't have to agree with everybody. But the people who went there, they're going there to debate, but it's a performance of liberal hyperbole and anger, where there's a lot of people who show up, who are on the left side of things, who are angry and want to engage with Charlie Kirk. And they line up, and they fight Charlie Kirk. And they're 18 or 19, and they're upset, and they've been waiting in line for 40 minutes, and they get in a screaming match with Charlie Kirk. And he's 31, and he's calm, and he's relaxed, and he talks to them. And then when I talk to the people who watch that, I ask them, what'd you think? And they're like, you know, I've been hearing about how the left are just these lunatics who are so outraged.
21:16 Speaker 01 And I mean, I didn't think it was true, and then I saw it. And you're like, oh, that's part of what's happening on this campus.
21:20 Kara Swisher? Right, they're, they're creating, they're creating a situation.
21:22 Speaker 01 It's a performance of liberal outrage that they've created, so a campus can see it and build their ideology against it.
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24:46 Kara Swisher? So two years ago, you did, long story short, on The Daily Show about Andrew Tate and the lack of male role models for young un. This is something my pivot co-host, Scott Galloway, talks often about. We talk about it on the show. We do, he's coming out with a book on it. And one of the things he's arguing is that, like, you just need different male influences, right? That the right has managed to create a whole bunch of characters, sort of action figures, and the ones on the left aren't very good or interesting or articulate enough. So did you see any difference between influencers like Andrew Tate, political activists like Charlie Kirk or Jill Rogan, and how they're perceived by this generation? I do think the shine is off a lot of them, I have to say. I think, for some reason, you can feel it. Are they fundamentally the same or different, with slightly different colors, essentially,
25:31 Kara Swisher? and huge?
25:32 Speaker 01 I think there's a lot of... I think those are all very different types of influencers in that sphere. I think you see the success of Joe Rogan is that people want, people are curious. I talked to a lot of young men who have time, have three hours in the day that they want to listen to somebody talk to, they want Joe Rogan to talk to a conspiracy theorist, but also Joe Rogan will talk to a beekeeper for three hours. And there's a 25-year-old dude who's like, yeah, I want, I'm curious.
25:56 Kara Swisher? I want to hear about macros.
25:57 Speaker 01 Yeah. I think Andrew Tate is pitching, you know, the old cars, sex, power. He's pitching that to 12-year-olds. And I think you have a lot of stunted men who are looking for attention. And I think kids are getting it early on, so I see what they're drawn to as well. You know, more often than not, what I understand the appeal here is they preach certainty, they preach curiosity, and they are, they look like strong, successful men, that when you are a young, you know, malleable boy, you're drawn to. I spent a little time in this special with Hasan Piker, who I thought was-
26:30 Kara Swisher? Yeah, I was going to ask you about them. The New York Times has called him a progressive mind and a body made for the manosphere. Talk a little bit about that interview.
26:37 Speaker 01 Well, I mean, it's, I think liberal media suddenly loved Hasan Piker because he is, he's a Twitch streamer, he has like 2.8 million followers. He talks about progressive policies for eight hours a day, but he also talks about culture and life. He gets clicks also because he, he works out in his backyard. He's, he's got anime pictures in his background. And when I spent some time with him, what I really liked about Hassan, he was a very authentic person. And he felt like a very different generation than me, as somebody who understands what progressives in their 40s feel like, what the guardrails are, and the ways in which you should take certain topics seriously, and how you should eschew other topics. Like Hasan Piker's like, no, I, I work out, I like working out, I like to post videos about working out. I also like to fight the billionaire class and talk about socialism.
27:21 Speaker 01 And then I like to talk about anime. And it's, it's a much more authentic, casual conversation. And the thing that resonated most with me is when I talked to him- I was like, you know, the media cycle is so exhausting right now. How do you stop from going crazy? And I'm paraphrasing him, but he mentioned like, you know, he makes as much noise about the things he cares about as he can. And then he focuses on self-improvement. He's like, it's the thing you can control. And, and the left gets so weird about like, it's about image, it's about this, and that's, that's toxic masculinity. It's like, no, dude, that's a guy like doing pushups who feels good about himself.
27:54 Kara Swisher? Right.
27:54 Speaker 01 And like, and for a 24 year old who's like, man, I just, I, what can I control? That I can feel good about? Give me, give me a hero's journey, even the tiniest hero's journey. What do you got for me?
28:04 Kara Swisher? He's also getting through his messages via that, right?
28:08 Speaker 01 100%.
28:08 Kara Swisher? And also Elon Musk sucks.
28:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:11 Kara Swisher? Right? And he's taking your shit, macros. And also Elon Musk, you know what I mean? I only say macros because my 20 year old son talks about macros all the fucking time.
28:18 Speaker 01 Well, he's able to connect with the things kids are talking about.
28:21 Kara Swisher? Right.
28:21 Speaker 01 But beyond that, it's fun. It's easy on the left for people to say, well, look at these videos of cars and these hyper masculine traits that, that have, they, they can go awry. But you have an 18 year old who's looking to attach something that feels fun and playful. And somebody who can speak authentically about traditionally masculine things that isn't boxed in by an idea that I have to be the perfect version of this.
28:44 Kara Swisher? Of a man, right.
28:45 Speaker 01 But that like, I can be complicated.
28:46 Kara Swisher? Why aren't more progressive voices getting that kind of traction with, among young male audiences? Like Piker, for example. Why aren't there more of them? Because I would assume they could be just as appealing and cool, just as, well, I don't think Charlie Kirk is cool, but I get the point you're making.
29:00 Speaker 01 Yeah. I mean, I think I laughed in the-
29:02 Kara Swisher? Because he's really uncool. He's like deeply uncool.
29:03 Speaker 01 Well, that's what's so interesting. You see, it's, it's not as if the right is killing it in this sphere. If Charlie Kirk is cool, there is space for other people to step in and be cool.
29:12 Kara Swisher? Right, right.
29:12 Speaker 01 It's out there. I think I made the joke that Keanu Reeves is like the ultimate.
29:17 Kara Swisher? Cool.
29:17 Speaker 01 Like progressive cool. If somebody who could be respectful and interesting and literally be the Matrix is the one.
29:23 Kara Swisher? Right, right.
29:24 Speaker 01 I think it's interacting in those spheres. I, I think there's a misunderstanding when people talk about who's the Joe Rogan of the left. And I think there's a misunderstanding that Joe Rogan is mostly a cultural commentator who kind of talks about politics. I'm like, you're, the Joe Rogan of the left is more like Travis Kelsey than anybody else. It's like, it's being able to engage in a space where your life isn't defined around one political ideology, but that you're interested in culture and you're comfortable in who you are, and that exudes itself to something else.
29:50 Kara Swisher? So in your Inter-Trape piece, you said the biggest goal is not to end up interviewing your own son at a MAGA rally someday. Has it changed the way you think about politics? With your son, talking about it with your son, et cetera?
30:02 Speaker 01 Yes, I mean, my son is-
30:04 Kara Swisher? How old is he?
30:04 Speaker 01 He's four and a half.
30:05 Kara Swisher? Okay.
30:06 Speaker 01 So we are, we talk very little politics.
30:09 Kara Swisher? So it's mostly Moana 2 at this point?
30:11 Speaker 01 We talk Moana 2, and he's a big Jill Stein guy, so I don't want to get into that with him.
30:15 Kara Swisher? Paw Patrol, where you can talk about copaganda.
30:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, so I was gonna say, Paw Patrol, don't even get into Paw Patrol.
30:20 Kara Swisher? I fucking hate Paw Patrol.
30:21 Speaker 01 Oh, my God, the institutionalized, you know, back the blue methodology that's inside that?
30:26 Kara Swisher? Copaganda. My young son loves it. My three-year-old loves Paw Patrol. And my older son walked by and he goes, "Copaganda." And I'm like, "Well, they do nice things for the people of the town."
30:36 Speaker 01 This is, but I think that's also, you've pinpointed the crux of where, like, progressivism is having a really hard time right now. Because I know people who, like, push that out and they won't watch Paw Patrol because of what is back behind it. And you're also like, "But, guys, you're gonna have to be able..." It's not just blui. Sometimes the left gets a blui, and it's lovely, and it's great, and it's perfect. It's able to deal with humanity in these other ways. But the left has to open up their circle so it's not just blui, it's also Paw Patrol. Maybe a blippi sneaks in there as well. Like, the world is complicated.
31:06 Kara Swisher? So did this, were you worried about your son being at a MAGA rally?
31:10 Speaker 01 Yes, well, I mean-
31:11 Kara Swisher? Of the future?
31:12 Speaker 01 Yes, in the sense that, I mean, when you have a child in this, this weird culture we're in right now, everything is filtered through that of like, what do I want to expose my kid to? How can my kid be useful within this environment? How can he be safe, but, but also be, be tough in this space?
31:29 Kara Swisher? Or not taken in?
31:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, and not be gullible. And I'm, I mean, I'm like, I'm a lot at heart, and so I see what's happening here. For this, for the special, I got on TikTok for the first time, and my mind is blown.
31:40 Kara Swisher? The first time?
31:41 Speaker 01 First time.
31:41 Kara Swisher? Okay. What's in your feed? I'm curious, since you've never been there.
31:44 Speaker 01 We, we did, there was a, a study that was done last year that essentially created a blank 16-year-old. And within like 20 minutes or so, suddenly, anti-feminist, toxic masculinity all started feeding in there. And so we were like, "Let's try this out. What does it actually look like? If you just create 16-year-old male, pop it on, what starts coming at you?" And very quickly, some right-wing stuff started to pop into that algorithm. But even top-line for- For me, it was just the algorithm, the, the interface itself was so discombobulating. It was so aggressive. It, it, it scrambled my mind in a way that-
32:19 Kara Swisher? Look at this, look at this, look at this.
32:20 Speaker 01 Yeah, it numbed me to-
32:22 Kara Swisher? You can't look away, actually.
32:23 Speaker 01 You can't look away. And also, you can't emotionally experience anything. I think above all, all of the social media stuff, it takes you away from actually being with yourself. And you realize, you talk to an 18-year-old, if they're with themselves and figure out what they think about, they got interesting, complicated, open ideas.
32:40 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
32:40 Speaker 01 If you, if you put a screen in front of their face that says, "Don't think about, don't think about, don't think about it", then all they're doing is reflecting the thing that's on the screen the most. And more often than not, it's right-wingers who get in that space. Or it's corporations who are just like, "You need this loud, loud materialism, capitalism. That's, that's what you're reflecting back at the world." So it's less that we're creating kids who are cruel with bad intentions. We're, we're creating reflections of the media that we're shoving down their throat. And that, that in of itself is toxic.
33:07 Kara Swisher? So, last question on this. Do you, when you were doing this, did you think the, the Charlie Kirk rules were being effective by being there? And is there any, besides Hassan, is there any counterpoint to what the Democrats could do? Do you think the left has gotten the message of humor and certainty and different messaging?
33:27 Speaker 01 I think they are, they are focus testing this message. They feel really optimistic about learning about this message. And they will talk to other people and put them in the ring in a way that they can effectively articulate this message.
33:40 Kara Swisher? Yeah, now you've lost me.
33:41 Speaker 01 I think, I think they're really looking hard at this message.
33:44 Kara Swisher? This problem, yeah.
33:45 Speaker 01 I mean, when I, when I look at who will, who will make a dent here?
33:48 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
33:49 Speaker 01 Like, Charlie Kirk is making a dent. He's on campus. Love him or hate him, he feels authentic to these kids. And he also knows how to talk to them on the device that they talk to. I think what the Democrats are looking for, they're not going to create in a lab. And it's, it's not going to have a prescribed political ideology. It might be more moderate than people think. It might be more left than people think, but it's going to feel authentic.
34:07 Kara Swisher? It seems like AOC and Bernie show is kind of interesting.
34:10 Speaker 01 I think that's the one version where you're like, AOC and Bernie resonate with people when they show up. They're very-
34:15 Kara Swisher? Even if you don't like them.
34:16 Speaker 01 Even if you don't like them, you believe them. Bernie, Bernie's not Hasan Piker. Hasan Piker really likes Bernie Sanders. And they're both authentic in very different ways, but they're both authentic. And so I think the left has, has space for that. And, and quite frankly- They keep thinking, who can be in a podcast to do that? A podcast is a very revealing place. Joe Rogan talks for three hours. People talk for a long amount of time. They expose who they are. And I think if they engage in places where they are more open, more authentic, more curious, like I think voices and faces will resonate with a younger generation, but you're not going to be able to plan it. You're just going to have to leave space for it to occur.
34:54 Speaker 05 We'll be back in a minute.
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36:57 Kara Swisher? I'm Kara Swisher, and I like people who say the quiet part out loud. In fact, I love it. That's Tiger Sisters, a new podcast that recently joined the Vox Media Podcast Network. Cherie Brooke Lu and Jean Lu are real sisters who built their careers at LinkedIn and Goldman Sachs. On their weekly podcast, they're giving the next generation practical tips on how to get ahead, how to write emails people actually answer, how to make your LinkedIn profile stand out, and how to keep learning as an adult. It's straight talk about money, career, and relationships every Monday. Follow Tiger Sisters wherever you get your podcasts.
37:33 Kara Swisher? So every week, we get a question from an outside expert, and we've got a great one for you.
37:38 Speaker 07 Hi, I'm Ellie Reeve, CNN correspondent and author of Black Pill, a book about how the darkest corners of the internet took over American politics. Jordan, you and I have covered the same events and at least once interviewed the same person. And I think that's because we're both drawn to the absurd that's also consequential. And so I'm wondering what you think of a story I'm working on now, which is about this new class of right-wing comedians who are reaching millions of young men through their podcasts on YouTube. When I was young, it was all about Jon Stewart. The Daily Show was offering these searing indictments of the Bush administration. And there was this idea that conservatives just weren't funny. And now that's totally changed.
38:22 Speaker 07 So I'm wondering what you think about that and whether it's hard for you to reach young men today.
38:31 Speaker 01 That is a great question. I mean, I think comedy, to me, I've always found resonance in people in the political space. The George Carlin's, the Lenny Bruce's, the Jon Stewart's, who like call out bullshit where they see it and poke holes at those in power. You know, they're tickling the feet of the giants, if you will. And so there's space on the left and the right. And I think there's good comedians who are able to work in both of those spaces and not be pigeonholed into one left or right. Right-wing comedians. There's of course, space for people to connect. Again, I think it's, what I always say is like, the job of a comedian is to read the room and speak to what that room is. Our rooms are getting more and more one-sided, and so I think there are right-wing rooms
39:15 Speaker 01 that people speak within that. And I think an issue I always have is sometimes they talk about like, these truth tellers and these right-wingers and these podcast bros.
39:24 Kara Swisher? Bold truth tellers.
39:25 Speaker 01 These bold truth tellers, willing to say what they want to say, you know? And they don't have to be tied down, they're not these lefty libs, so like, yeah, they will, fuck it, there's no constraints. And then they have Elon Musk on and kiss his ass.
39:38 Kara Swisher? That's correct.
39:38 Speaker 01 Or Donald Trump on, and just compliment him and not push him. And you can do whatever you want in this podcast space or this comedy space, but in some ways, where I think right-wing comedy to me has not appealed to me, is that like, you are praising the actions of cruelty as opposed to calling out those in power, and perhaps finding levity in the people who are fighting back against them. I think like, if you're always looking at the victims of the cruelty as the punchlines of your jokes.
40:09 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
40:09 Speaker 01 To me, that's a comedic space that is less appealing.
40:13 Kara Swisher? There seems to be, right now, this Trump pivot, Tim Allen's new sitcom, Shifting Gears, has become a surprise hit. He plays, essentially, Archie Bunker, which used to exist, by the way. Everyone's like, oh, he's winning with an Archie Bunker. I'm like, Archie Bunker was a hit, you know, for lots of reasons. Live cop shows are coming back, A&E is bringing back Duck Dynasty, oh, thank God. The conservatives are calling it a course correction, Hollywood says they want to appeal to fly over America. What do you think about this? Is there an opposite impact? Was there, is it a course correction? And do you think that it will have an impact on the entertainment business at all?
40:46 Speaker 01 It's interesting here, like, I think there are always audiences in different corners. The Tim Allen Show is an interesting one, because, so, Tim Allen's my mom's cousin.
40:53 Kara Swisher? Oh.
40:54 Speaker 01 And he was my dad's college roommate, and it's why my parents met.
40:57 Kara Swisher? What?
40:58 Speaker 01 So.
40:58 Kara Swisher? Okay, wow.
40:59 Speaker 01 So, Tim Allen is a part of my life. I see, I used to see Cousin Tim, Uncle Tim, at Thanksgivings, when he would come back into Detroit. So, I know Tim.
41:06 Kara Swisher? This was the Santa Claus phase?
41:08 Speaker 01 This is Santa Claus phase. Tim was on Home Improvement, he did Santa Claus, and Tim is a lovely guy, libertarian beliefs. When we meet now and see each other, we usually fight over politics in a lovely comedian funny way. And I get it, and you know, as somebody who knows Tim, and somebody who's on The Daily Show, a progressive show. People come up to me and they'll talk about like that Tim Allen show. And I'm like, here's what's complicated about it. Tim Allen is a lovely, funny, nice guy. He's not a cruel guy. He's a funny guy. He's got libertarian views. He likes to be a contrarian. He likes to push buttons. And I know he's doing a show that might not appeal to you because he's playing in that lane. But I know it plays to a lot of people and I get what is appealing about it.
41:52 Speaker 01 And I think in a, in an, in America that I want to live in, that these shows exist with other shows in ways that are softening towards these people who have political beliefs that are outside our own, but that doesn't define who they are completely. And so, so yes, I, am I afraid sometimes that the, the entertainment industry will course correct in a way that they are trying to appease a Trump administration? Yeah. I think that's something that is worrisome to me. And when we talked about seeing what's happening in other countries, it's like, oh yeah, I think, is there, is there a finger that can be put on the scale? Totally could be. And that is worrisome and scary as shit. But I'm also not like knee jerk upset about a proliferation of other types of shows that have different audiences.
42:35 Speaker 01 Because I think that is also important in the, the weirdness of what Hollywood is right now. Like, there's a lot of space for different types of stories and some are going to work and some are not. And I think we're, we're going to test that out in the next coming year.
42:47 Kara Swisher? Well, you see something like Sinners, which is all about racism. It is, it really is. And it's a huge hit. It's like, it depends. So a lot of the debate of how liberals, how Democrats in particular in Washington around the country respond to Trump. You said that the country experienced a crisis of certainty and you gave a TED Talk on this in 2023, a comedian's take on how to save democracy. I want to play a clip.
43:06 Speaker 01 It's hard to give any ground when you can't agree that the earth you stand on is either round or flat. But, but perhaps a gesture of understanding, if not towards irrefutable facts, but to your own uncertainty, is a step towards progress. I think the phrase "I don't know" invites a softening. And the ground is too hard to grow much of anything right now.
43:37 Speaker 01 What I think, in order for American democracy to survive, we need a culture of vulnerability, or at least a space in that culture for vulnerability. The good news is being wrong is sexy.
43:51 Kara Swisher? Again, that was before 2023, that was in 2023 before Trump won reelection. You've said that the big reason it's so hard to debate or even talk to MAGA people, though you do a lot of that, is that MAGA has become the identity, the certainty, no matter how many facts you put on the table, they believe Trump and his acolytes. So do you think making concessions showing the vulnerability is the answer? Or is it kind of a suicide mission for liberals when you're dealing with people on the other side for whom any concession is non-negotiable? I'm thinking of my mother this morning, for example, about transfencers.
44:21 Speaker 01 Oh, which I'm sure is an issue that's very important to her and has been for years and years.
44:24 Kara Swisher? Extremely. She's 92 and it's going to affect her when she's... Wait just a second. Anyway, go ahead.
44:31 Speaker 01 I mean, you know what? It's people often ask like, are you able to change people's minds when you go do Daily Show pieces? I think that's not the intention of those pieces. And the answer is no. More often not, not because there's a camera there and it invites people to put on a shield and be right and win an argument with their certainty and their identity.
44:49 Kara Swisher? Right.
44:50 Speaker 01 But the interesting moments to me are the moments off camera where you're actually able to show some of the things you don't know. I did a podcast with Governor John Kasich and the most interesting moments to me were our phone calls that were not recorded, where we were much more revealing in the things we were unsure about and the political ideas we had that we hadn't fully understood. And we're open for like the ability to change and feel something different about it.
45:13 Kara Swisher? Who else is doing that well, say in the Democratic Party? Because the Democratic Party justifiably has an image of being humorless, right?
45:20 Speaker 01 Sure.
45:20 Kara Swisher? In some fashion.
45:21 Speaker 01 I mean, it's like the, I haven't listened to much of like the Gavin Newsom podcast where he's inviting people on. I think what is dangerous about an idea there, there's something I really like about that idea. But I think you speak to something that's like, oh, it's one thing to come to something and then say like, I'm going to show you my vulnerability. And the other person will be like, gotcha bitch.
45:40 Kara Swisher? Yeah, right.
45:40 Speaker 01 That tends to be what happens in these situations where the left reveals an opening and the right takes it, as opposed to both people meeting.
45:48 Kara Swisher? And the people he's selected, Charlie Kirk, for example, know that. They're there for the dunk, not for anything else.
45:54 Speaker 01 I think you have to be careful. For politics, I don't have the answer. I don't know how to invite that vulnerability into that culture to allow people to meet on the same page. I don't think it tends to happen in front of cameras or in front of audiences because I think that's too dangerous.
46:09 Kara Swisher? Right. Who do you see as funny, though? Who do you see as someone who's very accessible? Anybody?
46:14 Speaker 01 On the left?
46:14 Kara Swisher? On the left.
46:15 Speaker 01 Who is funny on the left, like in the political sphere? Boy, who is funny? I mean, I will say who's most like, I think AOC and Bernie are compelling in themselves, and I like that. I spent some time with Wes Moore, who I thought was really, really impressive and interesting.
46:29 Kara Swisher? Yes, I just interviewed him.
46:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think Wes was great. I'm a sucker for governors on the left. Again, not from the comedy side necessarily, although there's some real crackerjacks there. But I think like, there are people who got shit done in their states and are able to talk in ways that are less partisan. I feel like when I spend time with senators or folks, you see the politics. They're good at politics, but governors are like, we gotta get shit done. And that, to me, is super compelling.
46:55 Kara Swisher? Do you have a favored governor besides Wes?
46:56 Speaker 01 Well, as a Michigander, I spent some time with Whitmer, and I like Gretchen Whitmer.
47:00 Kara Swisher? Gretchen.
47:01 Speaker 01 You like big Gretchen. And again, and I think Wes Moore was a really impressive, thoughtful person that I like spending a little bit of time with. He also rapped "Bring the Pain" by Method Man with me after a show in Chicago. So I gotta give respect for anybody with Wu-Tang love.
47:16 Kara Swisher? All right, then. All right, before we go, I want to talk about the future of late night. In 2017, you had your own show, The Opposition, in the 11:30 PM slot after The Daily Show, in which you played a right-wing pundit character that lasted a year. In 2019, you launched docu-series Clipper, where you toured the country, talked to people in marginalized communities, veterans, undocumented college students, cannabis entrepreneurs, Mars fanatics, not just Elon. And then you went back to The Daily Show. Talk about what were you hoping to happen there? And how do you like having all of you versus one to become the one? Like, as you're in Highlander, like there can be only one. It would be really cool if you did a sword fight for it. Again, Des.
47:56 Speaker 01 I'm hoping.
47:56 Kara Swisher? Desi would win again.
47:57 Speaker 01 God, you had such Desi Love on this show.
48:00 Kara Swisher? Well, I'm sorry. She would kick your ass, all of you.
48:02 Speaker 01 She probably would.
48:02 Kara Swisher? You'd make fun of her height and then she'd cut you off at your knees. So what do you think about sharing and where late night's going? It's been on the climb for years. Many have been downsizing, obviously due to a shift in streaming and on demand. How do you look at where late night is going to stay relevant to this generation? It's kind of the obvious question.
48:22 Speaker 01 Well, I will say, I mean, I love what The Daily Show is doing right now. For me, it's been a blast. We've had so much upheaval and uncertainty in the last few years. Like, we had a pandemic, we had a writer's strike, we had Trevor leave, we had a year of guest hosts coming in and out. And it kind of created a resiliency in the show as to like, things are going to change. You're going to think it's one way and it's going to have to shift. Suddenly, the show has to have to do new hosts every single week for a year to figure out what that was. And it landed us in a place that has been really fun. I mean, John hired me. And so when John came in, he was a mentor of mine. And to get a chance to actually work with John, like, this week, it's incredible. John hosts on Monday and I'm here and I talk to John.
49:07 Speaker 01 And then I'm watching John, I'm learning from John, and then I'm hosting the rest of the week. The dream job, to sit behind the desk of The Daily Show and get to talk about this stuff. It's exhausting. And I get to then stop at the end of the week. And then somebody else gets to come on. Desi gets to come on. Some people like Desi more than other people. And they make that very obvious in interviews that they do, which I understand and I want to be open to that. So for people who have their favorites, you're going to get your favorite the next week. And I think that's.
49:34 Kara Swisher? I like all my Daily Show children.
49:35 Speaker 01 This is, I respect it. But I think honestly, what has been fun about it is it has been a humane way to deal with the Trump deluge. In that we all don't go crazy because of it. And I think as an audience, they get the same Daily Show voice with different people with their own perspectives that they bring to it. I also love the fact that I get to go out and do short field pieces and I get to do specials. And I sort of think. You're like, what does late night do? Well, The Daily Show does something late night doesn't get to do, which is like, you get a monologue based on what happened that day. You get field pieces where we actually go into the world and talk to people. And those are going to live as six minute things. You get quick little clips to show the hypocrisy of the world that is there. I get to do deep dive pieces on Hungary. And so you can watch a special on that.
50:20 Speaker 01 It's like, you need to, you need to approach this as like, if you got 15 minutes on what happened today, or you want six minutes about what happened in the middle of Pennsylvania, or you want to watch a big, full on special on Hungarian politics. Like, The Daily Show is able to engage in that way. So it's been a wild ride for late night. We've weathered all of the storms. And I think we've, we've stumbled into something that I don't think anybody could have sort of pitched as what we thought the, the landing point would be. But it's allowed us to be, to be fresh and, and malleable to the weird times we're in.
50:53 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you also can pull it apart, which I think is critical for social media. Because a lot of your watching is on social media, correct?
50:59 Speaker 01 I know The Daily Show has found a lot of success in that. And when I go on, when I, when I, when I talk to anybody who's under 30, they're watching one minute clips that I've done from the road. If I'm talking to people over 50, they're watching the full episode. And, and it's like, I'm able to communicate with people in these different ways. So you've got to get savvy at doing that.
51:16 Kara Swisher? So I have two more questions. If you were the host host, the only host, is there something you would do differently?
51:21 Speaker 01 I mean, Jesus Christ, the, the property I would buy upstate would be unreal. I would finally, I'd get up the Hudson Valley. I would get something just outside Hudson. It would be a nice place. I wouldn't feel regret about it. I'd invest in a liquor company. I mean, I would be, I'd be, I'd be the person I thought I could be when I moved to New York.
51:39 Kara Swisher? What liquor? Don't say tequila.
51:40 Speaker 01 What liquor? I mean, it'd be a mezcal company, I think.
51:43 Kara Swisher? Of course, you said tequila, but go ahead.
51:44 Speaker 01 Don't even, what would Desi do? Would she do something better? A nice cognac? Would that be, would that, would you like, Kara? You know what? Open your mind, Kara. There's other voices on this show.
51:55 Kara Swisher? Anyway, so what would you do? Tell me one thing, and then I have one last question.
51:58 Speaker 01 One thing. Well, here's the thing that I, it's tough to do is to give up going on the road. And so I think that that is what is is difficult for me. Is that like, if I were hosting, I would figure out a way, what I was trying to do with the opposition, to be both hosting during the week, but also to be on the road and talk to people where they're at. And so I think that that's something I always like bringing back into The Daily Show. And if that was my full-time job, I don't know how I would do it. But I'd have to spend some time on the road as well.
52:23 Kara Swisher? So last question then. When you think about this special you just made, tell me the one person that really stuck with you in the special, or maybe didn't make it in. Is what, who is the one moment where you were like, this is really good? This is something I'm, that's substantive that you're bringing to people.
52:40 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. That's a, that's a great question. We went down to Tampa Bay, and I talked to the young Republicans at Tampa Bay. And they had just gone through a little bit of a firestorm because Andrew Tate returned from Romania. And Andrew Tate, the alleged sex trafficker, comes back from Romania, and the Tampa Bay young Republicans invite him to speak to their group. And there was a bit of an outcry from the left and some people on the right who are like, what are you doing? This guy's a sex trafficker, alleged. There's terrible videos of him being so misogynist and beating women. This is, he's a toxic person. Why are you inviting this person to the, to talk to your group?
53:21 Speaker 01 And I sat down with them, and I had, it's a, to be fair, it's an awkward interaction on the special. Because when I talked to these men, their group made a decision for clicks. Because the, their, their group made a decision that lives in the MAGA sphere. The MAGA playbook is do the most outlandish thing to own the libs, no matter the consequence. And they did this thing. And then I reached them a week or so later, and they've been blasted by people on the left. And when I talked to them about it, you can hear and see them. There's a morality, there's a core underneath there that's like, you don't, you don't want to, you don't want to have Andrew Tate come here. You've talked about your sisters, your mothers, you've talked about women in your lives in a
54:05 Speaker 01 way that what he does is disgusting and you don't want him anywhere near you. But yet, but yet, you are, you are young and part of this Republican Party in a way that you have to play MAGA. And here are the MAGA rules, do anything for attention and to own the libs. And you played it and now you're stuck. And what you don't have, what you don't have is the dead soul or the political savviness to like escape this conversation. You're like stuck grappling with a morality that is based on like love and empathy and a MAGA party that is telling you to burn it all down. And to me, that, that interaction really resonated. Cause I, I looked at them and I, and I was like, I, I see it in you. It's, this cruelty is not in you, but the game asks for it. And that's what breaks my heart.
54:50 Kara Swisher? Yeah, they have shame, they're not shameless.
54:52 Speaker 01 I know. This is the, and that's perhaps Trump's greatest superpower is that without shame, he can do gosh near anything.
54:59 Kara Swisher? But everybody else has shame.
55:00 Speaker 01 They do, they seem to.
55:02 Kara Swisher? A lot of people do.
55:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:03 Kara Swisher? A lot of people do, that's my hope, they do have shame.
55:05 Speaker 01 I think they do. I think, I think we, I think we built a, a country based around the idea that most, that, that people do, and therefore those are the boundaries that we will work within. That Nixon will eventually step down because it's so gosh darn embarrassing. It's like, I don't know if those are the rules anymore.
55:19 Kara Swisher? Well, let me tell you, I think this is a very resonant show. I think you're doing a lot more seriousness, but it's very funny at the same time. But I think there's a lot going on here and it's really important. You're reclaiming America one bro at a time.
55:31 Speaker 01 Thank you very much for rounding them up.
55:33 Kara Swisher? All right, thank you, Jordan.
55:41 Kara Swisher? On with Kara Swisher is produced by Kristin Castor-Wessel, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Annika Robbins and Emile Klein. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Track academics. If you're already following the show, you get a house in the Hudson Valley. Valley with a view. If not, you're up Schitt's creep with RFK Junior and his grandkids, literally. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
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