AMD CEO Lisa Su on AI Chips, Trump's Tariffs and the Magic of Open Source

In 2014, when Lisa Su took over as CEO of Advanced Micro Devices, AMD was on the verge of bankruptcy. Su bet hard on hardware and not only pulled the semiconductor company back from the brink, but also led it to surpass its historical rival, Intel, in market cap. Since the launch of ChatGPT made high-powered chips like AMDs “sexy” again, demand for chips has intensified exponentially, but so has the public spotlight on the industry — including from the federal government. In a live conversation, at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg Center, as part of their inaugural Discovery Series, Kara talks to Su about her strategy in face of the Trump administration’s tariff and export control threats, how to safeguard the US in the global AI race, and what she says when male tech leaders brag about the size of their GPUs. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Look at all these people who are here in the evening.

• 0:02Kara Swisher?

  I know, to talk about chips. Yes, we're very excited.

• 0:18Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. I've spoken to many people here on the podcast about the AI race, and a lot of the focus has been on generative models and the companies that make them. But the real power and a lot of the tension in the AI space is in the hardware, the semiconductor industry that is building all of that compute. My guest today has been a leader in the chips industry for more than a decade, Lisa Su, CEO of Advanced Micro Devices, better known as AMD. When Su took over AMD in 2014, which a lot of people warned her not to do, the company was almost on the verge of bankruptcy. By 2022, AMD was thriving and has surpassed its biggest rival, Intel, in market cap.

• 1:04Kara Swisher?

  Last year, Su was named Time's CEO of the Year. I really always like talking to Lisa. We have a great rapport, largely because she's a straight shooter, and she actually tells me exactly what she thinks all the time, even when we don't agree on things. She's also, unfortunately, one of the few women CEOs in tech, and so she stands out for that reason alone. But she also stands out because she's incredibly qualified for the job, and it's a big job these days. You would think that the increased demand for the best, high-powered chips to fuel the AI race would mean that Su and AMD were just coasting, but not so. There are a lot of headwinds, not the least of which are the back-and-forth terror threats, export controls, funding cuts, and all the other chaos coming from the Trump administration

• 1:48Kara Swisher?

  in the past 100-plus days. And instead of just two major competitors, Intel and, of course, the now-popular Nvidia, there are a slew of other newcomers in the space to contend with, including in China. I talked to her all about that and about her strategy for this new future at the Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg Center this week. This was the third event we've done there. In our joint AI discovery series. It was a great conversation with a lot of insights about the state of the industry today and where it's going. And it was actually very funny. You'll see what I'm talking about when we talk about size and GPUs. So have a listen.

• 2:38Speaker 02

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• 3:00Kara Swisher?

  Lisa, thank you so much for coming. The last time we sat down for an interview was 2021. It seems like forever ago.

• 3:07Speaker 00

  Seems like forever ago, yes.

• 3:08Kara Swisher?

  It wasn't that long ago, but a couple of milestones have passed since then. In 2022, AMD passed your biggest rival, Intel, in market cap for the first time. Congrats on that.

• 3:16Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 3:18Kara Swisher?

  A few months later, ChatGPT came out and basically started the AI race. And of course, most recently, President Trump launched a trade war with China. I don't know if you've heard about it, but it's happening.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Maybe a little.

• 3:28Kara Swisher?

  Maybe a little. You would have to pay a lot of attention to it. So rank these three in terms of importance of how you're thinking about your business right now. Your place and your competitors, innovations, political challenges.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  Well, first of all, Karen, it's great to be here, great to see everybody in the audience. I like talking about chips. You're gonna, you're gonna see that from me.

• 3:46Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 3:46Speaker 00

  You know, I started in the chip industry. I mean, I'm going to date myself, but I've been in the chip industry for 30 years. And back when I went to school, chips were not exciting. Like people.

• 3:56Kara Swisher?

  Why did you do it? You were at MIT.

• 3:58Speaker 00

  I was at MIT and I liked the idea.

• 4:01Kara Swisher?

  It was cool at MIT, but okay.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  It wasn't even that cool. It was sort of cool at MIT, but not like amazingly cool.

• 4:07Kara Swisher?

  All right.

• 4:07Speaker 00

  But you know, it's the idea that hard, like I like hardware. I like to build things. And so the idea of chips, you know, these are the brains of computers. And at that time, they were small computers. Now they're very, very big computers. I really enjoyed, but at the time, you know, a lot of people were like, hey, software, that's, that's a much more exciting field. So it's kind of foundational to say that right now, chips are really, you know, sort of the underpinnings of this entire tech community. You know, where AI is going and you know, that's one of the things. That I do feel very fortunate about that I'm in an industry that makes that much of a difference. Now, back to, you know, how do I think about these things? I mean, you've seen these technology arcs, Cara. They go in waves, you know, let's call it 10-year waves.

• 4:52Speaker 00

  And you saw that when the Internet came out, and then you saw that when PCs came out, and then when the cloud came out. And AI is like one of those waves, but, you know, I would say that it's probably the biggest wave that I've seen in my career because it has so much potential. So, yeah, that ChatGPT moment was a very special moment.

• 5:12Kara Swisher?

  Why was that?

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, AI has been around for a long, long time. But what was true about it is it was sort of so hard to use because not everyone had access to AI. And what that ChatGPT moment unlocked was that, wow, now everybody can interact with AI. Like, my dad can interact with AI because you're using, you know, spoken language, you're using text, you're using a way of expressing how do you get a computer to do things without having to have deep knowledge of, you know, programming languages and things like that. I think that moment just unlocked the fact that if we can make computers easier to use,

• 5:55Speaker 00

  then we can get so much more productivity capability, actually, you know, sort of new opportunity.

• 6:01Kara Swisher?

  How is it being used from your perspective right now compared to what it's gonna be?

• 6:06Speaker 00

  So, I still think we're in the very early innings of usage. I would say, you know, this is a 10-year arc, and maybe we're two years into a 10-year arc. But the way I think about AI is there's, let's call it, regular usage. And regular usage is, you know, companies, we think about companies trying to use AI to become more productive, right? Okay, how do I make something that is right now very manual and very labor-intensive, you know, much more operational? That's sort of one part of AI. But I think the other part of AI, and it's similar to the Internet era, which is, you know, you first had companies just using the Internet, and then you had companies that were truly changing their business model because of the Internet. I think you're gonna see the same thing in AI. And we see that in our own work, too.

• 6:50Kara Swisher?

  I asked it to write a tooth fairy letter.

• 6:52Speaker 00

  Okay. All right.

• 6:56Kara Swisher?

  It did okay.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  In that realm...

• 7:00Kara Swisher?

  It did not do great, I would say. I would say it got worse and worse as it went on, as I kept arguing with it.

• 7:07Kara Swisher?

  And then it started misspelling everything egregiously and I just said, go back to the first one.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  I should have done a little better than that.

• 7:14Kara Swisher?

  No, it really didn't. I'll show you. I'm gonna send you now.

• 7:16Speaker 00

  Okay, all right. I'm gonna see which model you're using. It should have done better than that.

• 7:19Kara Swisher?

  I was using ChatGPT. Is there a better tooth fairy model for someone? I'm certainly not using XAI for tooth fairies. I'm just not gonna, I'm worried about what I could get back. So I want to get, start with the challenges for you, for a company like yours, especially in trade war. You just come back from a trip to Japan and Taiwan. A majority of your chips are built in Taiwan, the world hub for the semiconductor production. That should be the 51st state, honestly, in some ways. The administration has been all, oh, that would bother China, I suspect. The administration has been all over the map on this one. In his executive order, President Trump said there would be no so-called reciprocal tariffs on semiconductors, and he said there would be soon. Same day, Commerce Secretary Lutnik said a semiconductor tariff would be coming in a month or two, but who knows?

• 8:04Kara Swisher?

  How are you dealing with that? Talk about the challenges here. Do you feel like you need to react to these things? Or you're just sort of quietly sitting in the corner crying into your?

• 8:13Speaker 00

  We are not sitting in the corner crying.

• 8:15Kara Swisher?

  All right, okay.

• 8:16Speaker 00

  We are recognizing that semiconductors are now very high priority lists on, you know, sort of all national agendas. And that is new.

• 8:26Kara Swisher?

  As nationalist agenda that is key to the security of the United States.

• 8:30Speaker 00

  That is definitely new. I would say 10 years ago, that wasn't the case. Five years ago, maybe a little bit, but sort of in the last few years, that's become top of mind. And what does that mean to us? Okay, so first of all, the investment arcs are not changing. At the end of the day, in a technology business, it's about making long-term bets. We decide what technology goes into our products like three to five years in advance. And at the end of the day, our job is to build the best. So we have to keep pushing the envelope on new innovation. That doesn't change. What does change are a few things, right? And it's not even just what's happened in the last 90 days, it's been what's happened for the last few years, right? Supply chain resiliency becomes really top of mind.

• 9:16Speaker 00

  of mind. So when, for example, during the pandemic timeframe, that was a completely unexpected thing.

• 9:24Kara Swisher?

  I think we talked about it then.

• 9:25Speaker 00

  Yes, exactly. And when that came up, it was like, people were like, why can't I get chips for cars? And it's like, well, you know what? It's because it's a many, like, it's a nine to 12 month supply chain. And if you want to change locations, it might take, you know, several years. And you need to plan for that in advance. And so we did a lot of work around the pandemic to give our supply chains more resiliency, and that's been positive. Now, the fact that, you know, advanced manufacturing is mostly in Taiwan, that's absolutely true. And that's absolutely one of the things where we don't have enough options right now. So, you know, the focus on trying to bring more manufacturing back to the United States, I think we're all in favor of that. Like, that's a positive, right?

• 10:10Speaker 00

  And just put it in the resiliency category, which is.

• 10:14Kara Swisher?

  Nine to 10 years.

• 10:17Speaker 00

  It will take.

• 10:18Kara Swisher?

  If at all.

• 10:19Speaker 00

  It will take certainly five to 10 years. And when I say that, we're going to manufacture in the United States advanced capabilities like this year, for sure. You know, our latest generation server chip will go through TSMC in Arizona, but it's still small. And there's so many steps. It's such a complex supply chain that you just have to plan every step of that.

• 10:43Kara Swisher?

  When you have these tariffs coming in and out, Taiwan is facing a 32% tariff. Officials there said they had talks with the administration earlier this month and offered a zero tariff regime.

• 10:53Kara Swisher?

  Is that something that might be agreed to? Have you had conversations with the White House about this? Obviously, it affects your business.

• 10:58Speaker 00

  We've certainly talked about the implications of tariffs and what that would do overall. And I think our.

• 11:06Kara Swisher?

  When you say we've talked about the implications of tariffs, what, how does that conversation? Mine would begin with what the fuck? Are you kidding me? But that's why I'm not Lisa Sue. Anyway.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  We would say, look, we appreciate semiconductors are really important and we appreciate that there's a long-term vision of bringing manufacturing back to the U.S., but it won't happen in a short amount of time. So let's just make sure that we're balanced in how we think about this.

• 11:33Kara Swisher?

  So if the administration levies that 32% tariff on Taiwanese semiconductors and it keeps tariffs in China in place, which at last call were 145%, I think, China has ramped up its own tariffs, although it has said chips manufactured in Taiwan will be exempt, which can help you. On the other hand, Beijing has also suspended export of rare earth minerals, which are essential for semiconductors. So how do you deal with that as a CEO? I mean, these are incoming from all sides.

• 12:00Speaker 00

  I think what we do is we stay very agile. We spend a lot of time analyzing what we can do in different places. And, look, at the end of the day, we have to be part of the solution. And part of the solution is making sure that people understand this supply chain is complicated, that, you know, any changes will not happen in the matter of months, it'll happen in the matter of years. And, look, we're here to be as good a U.S. company as we can be, knowing that these things will have some impacts. The way I look at it, though, Kara, is these are a little bit short-term impacts. And so I don't, I don't want to say we don't spend time on short-term impacts. Of course, we spend time on short-term impacts.

• 12:45Kara Swisher?

  But it's a shock to your system.

• 12:47Speaker 00

  Yes. But over the medium term, if what we do is we get to a balanced trade system, which is what we want is, as a U.S. semiconductor company that has, you know, a lot of products, we want to sell it as broadly as possible and ensure that, you know, we still stay competitive in that regime. And so I think those are the kind of the key, high-level bullet points that are really important.

• 13:10Kara Swisher?

  So what, you aren't just dealing with tariffs, by the way. The Commerce Department also issued an export licensing requirement for sending your M, is it made, is right, M I 308?

• 13:19Speaker 00

  I got it.

• 13:20Kara Swisher?

  Chips to China. AMD says that export controls could result in charge up to $800 million. To be clear, China was AMD's second-largest Market, as you just noted, you want to have markets everywhere. It made up nearly a quarter of your sales. Do you think there's room for negotiation with the administration and where are you with that?

• 13:38Speaker 00

  Well, I would say, overall, when we look at export controls, it's really complicated. And it's one of those things where, look, we get it. We get it that, you know, we have some crown jewel technologies and, you know, some of our highest performing chips are, you know, frankly, in the largest supercomputers. So I'm actually really proud of the fact that if you look at the top 10 supercomputers in the world, you know, five out of 10 of them have AMD technology in it. The number one has, the number one supercomputer at Lawrence Livermore National Labs is our technology. The number three at Oak Ridge. So we have really powerful things and there are going to be export controls. That's a fact of life. What we want to do is ensure that, you know, when you look at the framework of, you know,

• 14:20Speaker 00

  chips that we build, there are, let's call it consumer chips, there are, let's call it competitive but not bleeding-edge chips that we would like access to. And then for the highest performing chips, you know, we understand we're going to be export controlled. And, you know, our job is to make sure that we are really spending time with those who are making these decisions, that they understand.

• 14:42Kara Swisher?

  Is it appropriate, this more focus on national security over other things? Because they weren't paying attention at all, but most of those chips went into like games and cars and things like that, which is like, who cares, essentially?

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I think those are fine. Like, those haven't changed.

• 14:57Kara Swisher?

  Right, but is it appropriate to focus so much on the national security aspects of it?

• 15:02Speaker 00

  When you say, is it appropriate? Look, I think we, we understand that it is, you know, just part of sort of national policies and national strategy and it has to be a part of the conversation. We want to make sure that the regs are done in a way that give us as much access to the market as is not a threat to national security.

• 15:25Kara Swisher?

  And how do you do that? I'm really curious what you actually say in these meetings.

• 15:32Speaker 00

  I think a lot of it is intelligence about the market. All right, so there are two ways to approach, I think, leadership in AI. And like, I'm a big, big proponent of the fact that the US leads in AI today. The US leads in AI chips today, the US leads in AI models today.

• 15:49Kara Swisher?

  Correct.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  We want the US to continue to lead. And to continue to lead, it means run faster. And every day, like, that's what we think about. When you actually ask me what I think about every day, I'm not necessarily thinking about tariffs every day, although I have people who are.

• 16:03Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  I'm thinking about, how do I go faster? How do we get the technology out faster? How do we get the next big innovation out faster? How do we collaborate better with our customers faster? And that's probably where we want to spend, like, the majority of our time.

• 16:20Kara Swisher?

  Where you'd like to spend the majority.

• 16:22Speaker 00

  Yes, and also, that would be our recommendation to the administration, frankly. We should spend the majority of our time thinking about, how do we, as a country, go faster? And, yes, there's a piece of this that says, you know, we need to also protect our crown jewels. And we want to be part of that conversation. And the part of the conversation is, you know, these rules are actually very detailed. Like, they're not like, you can't, you know, you can ship this and you can't ship that. They're a combination of what you think the crown jewels are. And I don't think it's a question of, you know, should there be export controls? I think there's a question of, where do you draw the line on export controls? And that's where, you know, I'd like to believe that I can take off my AMD hat

• 17:06Speaker 00

  and put on my, you know, US semiconductor CEO hat and be helpful in that process of defining where to draw the line.

• 17:14Kara Swisher?

  Where to draw the line. Now, the Biden administration also put export limits on semiconductors to China. Their countries tried to prevent China from getting ahead in the AI race, which was a goal. Then DeepSeek came out. Did you anticipate the Chinese to be able to train an AI chap out for less than $6 million? That's numbers. What's the real number?

• 17:33Speaker 00

  I don't know that we need to focus on, you know, was it trained?

• 17:35Kara Swisher?

  Cheap, cheap is what it, do you?

• 17:37Speaker 00

  With less.

• 17:37Kara Swisher?

  Less much, with less.

• 17:38Speaker 00

  With less compute.

• 17:39Kara Swisher?

  With less compute. Did it change your thinking internally?

• 17:44Speaker 00

  I don't know that it changed my thinking so much internally. I'll tell you what I believe. What I've seen time and time again in tech is that necessity is the mother of invention. Like, if you put constraints on a problem, people will find a way to engineer around it. I mean, I'll give you, you know, sort of an example. Like, there was a time when AMD was much, much smaller. And people used to say to me, you know, Lisa, are you crazy? Like, how could you possibly compete against Intel? Because they had 10x the people that you do. And I was like, you know what? It's not about how many people you have. It's like, do you have good ideas? And in some sense, we were constrained because we had less people. We had to out-innovate and come up with new ideas and, you know, a new way of doing things.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  I think that's what we saw a bit with the DeepSeek moment. They didn't have the compute. They didn't have the gobs and gobs of compute that we have at USAI Labs. They didn't have the chips, they didn't have the compute. And so what they had to do was think of a different way to innovate. And, I mean, the truth is, you know, when you're trying to do something, let's call it a little bit after the leaders, it takes less resources. And what they did was they aggregated some very good ideas that came from, you know, other top AI labs. What I think we learned from it is you can slow down with restrictions, but you're not going to stop progress. I mean, you have to imagine that there are really smart people out there across the world.

• 19:11Speaker 00

  And if you give them a set of constraints, they're going to innovate around it.

• 19:16Kara Swisher?

  Did it change your thinking internally?

• 19:18Speaker 00

  It forwarded something that I really believed, which is two things. One is that, that there are lots of ways to solve problems. And, you know, you learn different ways. The second thing, which actually was really positive, is that

• 19:34Speaker 00

  We saw the power of open source.

• 19:36Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Like, I'm a big, big believer in open source because it allows people to collaborate on a problem. And what you saw with DeepSeek is, you know, put aside DeepSeek being a Chinese lab, you know, DeepSeek was an open source model. And now you see, like, every research group learning from some of the techniques of DeepSeek to make their models better. And I actually thought that was really cool. Like, we saw, in the realm of a short number of weeks, people, you know, kind of changing the way they thought about, you know, adding some innovation from what they learned.

• 20:14Kara Swisher?

  From what they learned from others. So despite all this, Huawei is reportedly about to start sending out its own advanced AI chip to Chinese customers in May. Baidu said last week that its cluster of its Kunlun chips can support DeepSeek model training. Has it fueled a rise of new players? Are you worried about losing the Chinese market or other Asian markets completely, especially in the mode of tariffs? Because I think the tariffs have advantaged China in many ways.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  So, look, we give Huawei a lot of credit. You know, they have a lot of smart engineers. I think we have better technology. Our goal in life is to continue to stay ahead. And that's why I said, you know, at the end of the day, we have to spend like 90% of our time thinking about how do we go faster? How do we innovate faster? How do we use all of the great capabilities that we have to continue, you know, that trend that we have? And recognize that, yes, there's competition out there.

• 21:09Kara Swisher?

  Does this create a more competitive, especially with the tariffs on top of it and the language that goes back and forth?

• 21:16Speaker 00

  I don't know that I would say it's more competitive. I would say that, you know, in the grand scheme of things, I'm not a big believer in decoupling of ecosystems. I actually think, you know, we work in China, we learn a lot from that interaction. I think, you know, we have teams in China. And so I, you know, my view of the world is there's a, there's a good opportunity to recognize that there should be some limitations, but also the ability to continue to, you know, have an integrated.

• 21:49Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I'm a big fan of not decoupling either. Part of the Trump administration's stated goal is to increase manufacturing here, which I think a lot of people, he was not the first person to talk about this. Lots of administrations have talked about that. President Biden's 2022 CHIPS Act was over $52 billion bet to bring semiconductor R&D and manufacturing back to the US. Trump has essentially rebranded as Investment Accelerator in an executive order, he writes. It shall focus on delivering the benefit of the bargain for taxpayers by negotiating much better deals than those of the previous, whatever. Okay. Can you give us some insight into those deals look like and what's changed in that regard? Because you all profited indirectly from the CHIPS Act.

• 22:31Kara Swisher?

  TSMC's new production site in Arizona that you noted was awarded $6.6 billion in funding from the Biden administration. Some of your key processor chips will soon be made. Your historic rival, Intel, got over $7.8 billion in funding to advance their production products. Intel, just for people who don't know, after reporting loss in the first quarter, recently announced massive job cuts and cuts to capital expenditure. So, talk a little bit about the impact of the CHIPS Act and whatever you want to call it, you know? You can call it Phyllis if you want, but talk about...

• 23:02Speaker 00

  What did you say? Call it what?

• 23:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, Phyllis. I'd like to call it Phyllis. Yeah, whatever. I don't care what you call it. Investment Accelerator.

• 23:09Speaker 00

  I love Kara. Don't you guys love Kara? I mean, like...

• 23:12Kara Swisher?

  Talk about the importance of this.

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Look, I'm a pet.

• 23:17Kara Swisher?

  And call it Phyllis the whole time. Okay, no, sorry.

• 23:19Speaker 00

  That'll distract me, Kara. Is it okay? Can I call it the CHIPS Act?

• 23:22Kara Swisher?

  CHIPS Act is good.

• 23:23Speaker 00

  I thought the CHIPS Act was pretty historic in the sense that, you know, for semiconductors to get to the level that it requires industrial policy for the United States, that's a big thing.

• 23:35Kara Swisher?

  That's industrial policy, exactly.

• 23:36Speaker 00

  It is absolutely industrial policy. Look, I, you know, we didn't benefit directly from the CHIPS Act. We didn't get any particular funds, but I'm a big believer in US manufacturing is a good thing. And the CHIPS Act was a good catalyst to start people really, you know, taking, you know, the bold steps to bring manufacturing back to the US.

• 24:00Kara Swisher?

  This is expensive, the chaos involved, the training.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  It's expensive and, you know, frankly, I mean, we're all human beings, right? So, if you don't have incentives to do something, you won't necessarily do it, even though you know that it's a good thing to do. I think it's accelerated a bit, right? I was very pleased to see TSMC increase their investments by 100 billion. That's huge. I think there was a big thing that people... Learned from this thing because it used to be that there was a belief that you couldn't build the same, you know, performance, power, yield here in the United States. That frankly, it was hard. We didn't have all the systems built and all of that. What has been really good over the last, you know, sort of several years as we've started

• 24:46Speaker 00

  bringing some of the manufacturing back to the United States. Like TSMC has now said on record that their yields and capability in Arizona are as good as, you know, the chips that they build in Taiwan. And we see it. Like, we see it in our own products. Like, it's fantastic. And I think that's like, like a clear existence proof. Like, yeah, actually, you can bring advanced manufacturing back to the US and it's a good thing to do.

• 25:09Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 25:09Speaker 00

  Now, we need much more of it.

• 25:11Kara Swisher?

  Right, because they've got a 20-year, 30-year.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right. They would say the scale is not what it needs to be. So, the, the idea that we need to go faster and we need to have more manufacturing, you know, let's call it eggs in the US basket, make perfect sense. It is more expensive. Like, we just have to realize that it's more expensive. But the resiliency aspect of it and, you know, the sovereignty aspect of it make for good business. And that has been a change in people's mindsets.

• 25:38Kara Swisher?

  Does it change your way of thinking around your business when this is the case?

• 25:41Speaker 00

  It does.

• 25:42Kara Swisher?

  Because you want to make investments. I mean, one of the things, people make investments over the long term, especially in chips.

• 25:47Speaker 00

  Yes, I think it does. I think, you know, there was a time when, you know, sort of chip guys would normally think, hey, let me just go to the lowest possible cost. Because everybody wants to, you know, get the lowest possible cost. And I think that has absolutely changed. Now, it's like, hey, we need to have a very resilient supply chain. And that's a global supply chain. But, by the way, I don't think we can bring everything back to the US. That's also not practical. But having a good portion of manufacturing here in the US and around the world gives us resiliency in the business, which is a good thing.

• 26:20Kara Swisher?

  So let's talk more about the competition, too. There's been an AI arms race going on since 2022. It shifted the characters. Now Nvidia is the one to beat in GPU and data center sector. In a Time article, you noted, announcing you 2024 CEO of the year. You were, quote, as telling your engineers that you have negative slack. You said, whatever we do organizationally, we cannot slow down. Talk about that. How has the AI changed your strategy? And where do you put your energy then?

• 26:48Speaker 00

  So AI is the most important technology that I believe, you know, we'll see over the next 10 years. So with that, you know, as a tech CEO, my job is to make capital allocation decisions. Like, I decide where do we spend money? And over the last few years, we have really pivoted the company so that AI is in every product. We talk about big AI a lot, like we talk about the AI that goes into, you know, Meta and OpenAI and Microsoft. But the truth is, you're going to see AI everywhere. You're going to see AI in the cloud. You're going to see AI in the enterprise. You're going to see AI at the edge, sort of in telco edge things. And the reason I say it's negative slack is because the industry is moving so fast. Like, I've just not seen an industry move this fast.

• 27:33Speaker 00

  And that's where I go back to, it's not just the big players. I mean, there's some, you know, amazing, you know, startups that are coming out of, you know, the Stanfords, the MITs, the Berkley's, the Johns Hopkins of the world that are really coming up with really good ideas.

• 27:48Kara Swisher?

  Give me an example of one that you were like, that's pretty cool.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  You know, I, there's, there's many, like Luma, for example. You know, when you look at text to video and, you know, what they've, you know, been able to do, like, the, you look at where the technology was a few years ago and where the tech is today and then where it's going, going forward. These are, you know, some of the examples that are out there. Like, I'm a big believer in, you know, healthcare and life sciences and that, that.

• 28:17Kara Swisher?

  Though for the record, Lisa never brags. It's always the dudes, sorry. They're always like, "It's gonna solve cancer." You have never done that to me, and I thank you for that.

• 28:24Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna say it's gonna solve cancer, but I'm gonna say it's gonna do a lot.

• 28:27Kara Swisher?

  Absolutely. That's why I like you. I'm giving you a compliment.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  For drug discovery, for all... It's amazing.

• 28:34Kara Swisher?

  I think they're often doing it because they're like, "Pay no attention to this other stuff we're doing, but we're gonna solve cancer."

• 28:40Speaker 00

  But, yes, no. So, it is an example, though, of where... We're just at the very early innings of what can be done. And so, why do I say we have to go faster? It's because, like, we wanna be the enabler of this technology.

• 28:53Kara Swisher?

  Negative slack, what is that exactly? I love the term. What is this?

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Oh, it's just the idea that if you build a schedule, like, the idea that everything goes in order? No, you can't do that. You actually have to make it go faster than if you laid it out on a piece of paper.

• 29:08Kara Swisher?

  I see. So, one area where you've been expanding is in data centers. When you took over AMD in 2014, the company's share of data center chip market was basically zero. At the end of 2024, your sales in that sector increased...

• 29:19Speaker 00

  It's like, maybe 1%.

• 29:20Kara Swisher?

  1%? Okay, okay. Well, basically zero, okay.

• 29:25Kara Swisher?

  I'm good at math. No, you're good at math. I'm not good at math at all. I'm not even good at making tooth fairy AI stuff. Your sales in that sector increased 69% year-over-year to record $3.9 billion. In March, you bought ZT Systems for just under $5 billion. They designed data center equipment. Talk about this move to AI factory market, which is what Nvidia has also been expanding. And in these data centers, a lot of people feel there's been a bubble in this. Some people think there's not been enough of one.

• 29:57Kara Swisher?

  And you've said you wanna offer customers an open data center system rather than a proprietary system with all-inclusive pieces. Explain what you mean by that and how that makes you more competitive. So, talk about the data centers and then the open idea.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  So...

• 30:12Speaker 00

  You know, I believe companies need to know what they're good at. And what we're good at is building great, big computing systems. And so that was the reason that we were focused on data center business. Before data centers were sexy, it was the idea that-

• 30:25Kara Swisher?

  They're still not really sexy, but go ahead.

• 30:27Speaker 00

  Well, you're talking to me, so they're not terrible, right? I mean-

• 30:31Kara Swisher?

  Okay, sexy. Sexy it is. Okay.

• 30:33Speaker 00

  So, before people cared about data centers, the fact is, we cared. Because, you know, like, I believe that if you can get compute at the most efficient capability, that you'll be able to really touch the lives of billions of people. And so what we see today is, you know, exactly that, right? I mean, the cloud is powering so many things. And we continue to be the underpinnings of the cloud environment going forward. So that's kind of the view of, you know, why data centers and where we're going from there. And I think when you, you know, think about this move to AI factories, it's really hard to actually make all of these pieces work. And so our job is to make it easier for people.

• 31:17Speaker 00

  And so that is exactly what we're doing. That's why we acquired ZT Systems, a great system company that allows us to put together more of the components. And then, you know, to your conversation or question about open versus closed, you know, I guess, I'm a believer in, like, choice is a good thing. Like, people want choice. People don't only want one choice. People want the ability to choose kind of what their systems should look like. And it's almost a little bit like, if you look at the phone industry, you know, Apple has a very vertically integrated system between hardware, software, systems ecosystem. And then you look at the Google Android ecosystem, and you have lots of choices. That's sort of the difference between what I would say a closed ecosystem is and an open ecosystem.

• 32:02Kara Swisher?

  Apple's done pretty well with that one.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  They have, they have.

• 32:04Kara Swisher?

  Not initially, but then they did.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  Yes, but there are also lots of other people in the ecosystem. And that's, that's my belief, is that in AI, because, like, there's, there's no winner take all in the AI market. There shouldn't be. You're going to have big AI, you're going to have medium AI, you're going to have small AI. Big models, medium models, small models, big compute, medium compute, small compute, and an ecosystem-

• 32:27Kara Swisher?

  It's like the three bears, but go ahead.

• 32:29Speaker 00

  And the ecosystem that puts that together, having choice is a good thing and that's what we are working on.

• 32:34Kara Swisher?

  So Nvidia also has 90% of the AI accelerator market last year, but you were trying to compete in this space. In March, you inked a multi-billion dollar deal with Oracle, a big data consolidator, I guess, I don't know what to call it now, for a new, I'm gonna get this right, MI355X AI accelerators. So talk about this deal and explain AI accelerator market and why you decided to get into it.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so the AI accelerator market, you know, you might hear it called GPUs. I mean, think about this as truly the foundation. Like, when you think about, you know, training the OpenAI models or training the Grok models or, you know, or what Meta is doing with Llama, you need lots and lots of GPUs. GPUs are very nice, parallel things, so we call them accelerators, versus CPUs, which are more, let's call it, traditional compute. And I'm a believer in you need all of these things. Like, there's no one-size-fits-all in computing. You need all of the various, various pieces. So, you know, roadmaps are our lifeblood. Like, we think about, you know, when I talk about negative slack, it's like, how do I get products out to market faster? We're very, you know, excited about our roadmap.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  We are just about to launch a new series, MI355, as you stated. We'll be launching that in June, and it's the next generation, which will allow you, you know, think about, from year to year, we're gonna see like a 35x improvement in performance.

• 34:00Kara Swisher?

  In performance of these chips.

• 34:01Speaker 00

  Yeah. So that's pretty cool.

• 34:03Kara Swisher?

  These GPUs.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  That's correct.

• 34:05Kara Swisher?

  Correct. Can I ask you a side question?

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:08Kara Swisher?

  It's not in here. Why do men always talk about GPUs like they're talking about their penises? Why is that?

• 34:11Speaker 00

  That's the side question she asks me.

• 34:14Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, seriously, I've got 10,000, no, I've got 20,000, no, I put 100,000 together. Like, it's so strange.

• 34:22Speaker 00

  I don't even know how to answer that question. How should I answer that question, guys?

• 34:26Kara Swisher?

  I mean, I'm good with big, but what is...

• 34:34Kara Swisher?

  You must be like, oh, stop it, boys. I mean, I know you do.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  You know what I'm like? I'm like, if you need GPUs, I can help you.

• 34:42Kara Swisher?

  Yes.

• 34:43Speaker 00

  That's what I said. Okay?

• 34:45Kara Swisher?

  All right. Sorry, I just had to ask. Again, has never done this to me, never called me about her big GPUs, but right now she just did. She kind of did, in a very classy way. All right. A lot of big tech customers, Google, Microsoft, Apple, Meta, Amazon, have started designing their own chips. You know, this is something I've heard Tim Cook talk about it. Does this concern you? Talk about that. I would think Apple would be the one, would be the most forward of those, but maybe, perhaps not. But talk a little bit about that, because they want to control their destiny.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Sure. Look, I mean, Apple's done a great job, certainly with that vertical integration, what they've done with chips. My view of the world is, look, everyone realizes that, like, the semiconductor industry or the semiconductor capability is so important as you think about, you know, long-term, you know, sort of business resiliencies, that it's not surprising to me that, you know, these large companies want to design their own chips. What I will say for sure is, they're not designing the same things that we're designing.

• 35:45Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  And so there's more than enough chip market for all of this. You know, our job is to partner well. I think that's one of the things that AMD does well. Like, we believe that our job is to make our customers better and to work more collaboratively with them. And so, no one's going to design all the chips they need. Like, it's impossible. Like, we can't design everything. There's, there's thousands of chips in these systems. There may be cases where the application has gotten mature. Like, for example, today, we design custom game console chips. That application is very mature, and you want to do something custom.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  But when you have something like AI, where the algorithms are changing every day, you may not want to do something custom, because, you know, it may not run the next model as well as the general-purpose chips will run them.

• 36:37Kara Swisher?

  Right. But so you don't see it as a threat to your...

• 36:39Speaker 00

  I, I see it as a fact of life. And there's more than enough market to go after.

• 36:44Kara Swisher?

  So I want to switch gears a bit and talk about R and D. You're one of the few Fortune 500 CEOs with a PhD. You said you fell in love with semiconductors when you got, as you said, an engineering student at MIT and got a part-time job in a lab. Your alma mater and John Hopkins are two of the universities now suing the Trump administration, trying to cap research funds. How do you look at these governmental caps and other freezes to university research, which presumably is very critical in your mind, I would assume?

• 37:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, I would say I'm not fully in tune with exactly what's happening with some of the governmental caps. But if I put that aside for a moment and just talk about university research, I'm a big believer in university research. I'm a big believer in research, especially that is early on and not tied to, let's call it, commercial interests is actually a great thing. So the government has been a big funder of that. Frankly, the private sector probably should do more than we do today. And we need to work through this and ensure that there's a good pipeline of students. Students are incredibly important in this

• 37:48Speaker 00

  thing. And then that we also continue, let's call it, leading-edge research that is, let's call it, not necessarily tied to commercial interests.

• 37:59Kara Swisher?

  How under siege do you think that is right now? It could ruin a whole generation of scientists, whether it's healthcare or tech.

• 38:07Speaker 00

  I'm certainly hoping it doesn't do that.

• 38:09Kara Swisher?

  How do you prevent that? Do you have to step in? Do companies have to step into this?

• 38:13Speaker 00

  Look, I think private sector does have to do more, frankly. And I think public-private partnership in general is a good thing. So from that standpoint, we get a lot of benefit from the work that we do with universities. Relatively small dollars, like for example, we give a lot of universities GPUs, back to the big ones. Everybody wants GPUs. We give a lot of universities hardware because we want them to learn on our capabilities. And computing is expensive. And so there are places where we can do more and we should do more.

• 38:49Kara Swisher?

  But no one can replace government in that regard?

• 38:51Speaker 00

  For sure, for sure. I think, look, all of these things are cycles. I don't want to overreact to any given cycle. I think the long-term interests are, you know, US must continue to lead. And there's multiple aspects of what US leadership include. It includes work that we have to do in the private sector. It includes work that we have to do in universities. It includes work that we have to do in national labs. All of these things are important. And of course, we want to do it as efficiently as possible. And we all know that there are efficiencies to be gathered, but fundamentally, university research is very important.

• 39:27Kara Swisher?

  Very important. So I'm going to go on to the next thing, which is you grew up in New York, but many top tech CEOs with immigrant roots first came to the US for college or grad school. I'm thinking of Jensen Huang of Nvidia, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Alphabet's Sundar Pichai, IBM's Arvind Krishna, and yes, Elon Musk. Many have come to this country, to name a few. And so many, just there's so many everywhere. The Trump administration's been targeting some foreign students, although that's moving back and forth, trying to take away green cards. Talk about the importance of luring top talent from around the world. And tech industry is dependent on almost completely. Like, if I had to go through the various people who've invented things in this country,

• 40:08Kara Swisher?

  it's really pretty much, it's heavily oriented towards people who've come from elsewhere.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. I think the US was the place to come. It was the place to come to go to school and the place to come to do bleeding-edge technology. And I think we would like it to stay that way. So certainly, skilled immigration is one of those things that we care a lot about. And the ability to kind of keep the best people in the United States is a good thing.

• 40:35Kara Swisher?

  What do you do to stop this particular trend from happening? How do you lobby against that? Because I just heard from three major technologists who are people you do not want to lose in this country. France is offering them visas and tons of money to move there. And they're scared, too, personally, because they were, they happen to be vocal supporters of Kamala Harris, for example, and they're thinking of moving. That's at the top echelons. How do you get that back in the bottle? How do you get that? Because other countries are now moving in to take advantage, France, other, many other countries.

• 41:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, look, I think we all agree that this is an important topic and it needs to be. You know, it's always a pretty difficult issue to address. I mean, we've been talking about high skilled immigration, you know.

• 41:23Kara Swisher?

  Forever.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Forever. And it's been one of those things. But, look, I think we need to continue to go through the process of, you know, recruiting and maintaining, you know, the best students and the best researchers in the US.

• 41:37Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I have never heard these people say this. This is something was new. It was fresh for me. And I wouldn't, I don't like to use the term unprecedented, but it felt like it when I heard it. So, one of the things I've noticed, you're incredibly diplomatic, I appreciate it.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  She's like, yeah, right.

• 41:51Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. But you're one of the top tech CEOs in the country. Do you have a role or responsibility to speak out? Or do you feel, someone told me, I'm saying a lot of things just recently, a pretty high ranking, well, very high ranking CEO, tech CEO. I'm saying a lot of things privately, Kara. Like, trust me. And I was like, what are you saying privately? What is going on? Do you feel like you have to speak out? Or, most of them have not been. And in fact, some of them have been front and center at the inauguration and stuff like that. What do you think your role is? And how difficult is it right now? Especially when some irritating reporter is asking you this question?

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Well, I'm sitting here with such a very nice reporter. I did not say irritating.

• 42:28Kara Swisher?

  Because you have bigger CPUs than those men.

• 42:30Speaker 00

  Look, I think as tech CEOs, we do have a responsibility to speak out. But I think it has to be, you know, authentic. And authentic means I don't weigh in on every topic that I don't have an opinion on, frankly. Like, I can't. Because in every day that we have, yes, we all read things, we all do things. But at the end of the day, I spend, you know, 95% of my time thinking about the semiconductor industry and what we can do within that view. And so, I think the opportunity in places like, you know, this is, how do we be, let's call it... Not necessarily polarizing. So you can say I'm diplomatic.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  I wouldn't use the word diplomatic, but I'm not like, I'm not out to make a headline. But I am out to be pretty authentic. So if you ask me a question, I will do my best at answering it. And recognize that, you know, the world and, you know, sort of the country goes through waves. And as you go through all those waves, you know, our job is to, to run a good company. And better than run a good company, run a great company. And, you know, continue to be the best at what we do.

• 43:39Kara Swisher?

  Is tech spending too much time on politics? You've seen the impact on Musk's companies, for example. And it's not only, it's because the cars aren't innovating. To me, it's hard. I think innova-- no, I mean it. I mean it. You can talk all you want, but as you said, innovation matters. And if they had a cool car, it would sell. Instead, they have the Cybertruck.

• 44:00Kara Swisher?

  You know not have to comment, but it's ugly. I know you think that.

• 44:07Speaker 00

  By the way, Tesla's a customer and they're a good customer.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  Look, do I think tech CEOs are spending too much time on politics? I think, I think as a tech CEO, I spend more time, not on politics, but on government-related things, much, much more time today than I did three years ago or five years ago. And I have to, right? Because you just went through the litany of the reasons why. We need to understand tariffs. We need to understand export controls. I think the most, the most important thing that we need to do is to make sure that people understand our business. And if you think about other industries, like you think about the automotive industry or the aerospace industry, they've been doing this forever because, you know, they were much more entwined in, you know, sort of the national, you know, economy. We weren't.

• 44:58Speaker 00

  Like we were, you know, you, you guys just keep doing what you're doing. Now we are absolutely in the middle of, of, you know, sort of the national economy, you know, sort of the national security. And so, yes, we need to spend more time. And, you know, that doesn't mean, like, you're not going to see me on, you know, sort of

• 45:13Kara Swisher?

  There's no chainsaw for Lisa Su, right? Sorry, I'm not going to make you insult Elon. Go ahead.

• 45:19Speaker 00

  It's not about being seen, but it is about being heard. And I, I've, I've learned this notion of not, you know, whereas--

• 45:28Speaker 00

  The semiconductor dynamics of supply chains and manufacturing dynamics and design dynamics are second nature to us. For those who are kind of establishing policy, it's not second nature to them. And we need to help educate. And that's the way I view this. This is like, hey, we get it. We're important. We're foundational. Now let me help be part of the solution and not just be, you know, someone lobbying for my company.

• 45:52Kara Swisher?

  Right. It seems like often a giant waste. It's exhausting to a lot of people who are interested in the technology itself.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Well, I don't think I'm good at it.

• 45:59Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  Anything that you're not great at, you find a little bit exhausting.

• 46:02Kara Swisher?

  They're not good at it either.

• 46:04Speaker 00

  But you're learning. And you're learning how to make an impact on something that's very important for the country.

• 46:09Kara Swisher?

  Okay. So let's finish up with two more questions. When you took over as CEO of AMD in 2014, people don't realize that the company was close to bankruptcy. Its stock was around $3 a share. You famously decided not to go for mobile, which was the hot new thing at the time. And you're right, Lisa Su and AMD is a two-part Harvard Business School case study. Very exciting. As I mentioned, you were Time CEO of the Year in 2024. This is my complimentary period. When AMD had a record year.

• 46:34Speaker 00

  She didn't start with this, right?

• 46:35Kara Swisher?

  But your stock, like a lot of stocks, has had a tough time this year. You can't, your quarterly reports come out next week, which you can't talk about. But you said you have to think long-term in the business. So what are you banking on in the next couple of years? What is your biggest worries as a CEO? You obviously always look at the stock market. The stock market is going all over the place, largely because of the tariffs, mostly the tariffs, actually. What do you have to think about? Because the values, I mean, Nvidia got hit hard. People don't know what to make of these things. So how do you look at that?

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I look at it a couple of different ways. First of all, you know, we cannot sort of rank our own value based on what the market is doing on any given day. And I tell my employees that, right? I tell my employees, hey, like, don't spend too much time looking at the market because the market will go up, the market will go down. We're still the same company that we were. And, you know, frankly, it's all about long-term growth. And for us, as a tech company, it's all about the product roadmap. So great products. Um, deep customer relationships um end up with long-term growth and that's what we're trying to do. I also am quite motivated by this notion that um I believe in tech for good.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  And tech for good is the notion that the products or the technology that we're building actually does make the world a better place. I know that sounds really like.

• 47:58Kara Swisher?

  No, I believe you, actually. I don't believe most.

• 47:59Speaker 00

  No, no, but I, no, like, I really mean that.

• 48:01Kara Swisher?

  No, I think you do believe.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  I, I, I really, like, why am I in tech? Like, why am I in semiconductors? It's for that reason, because I believe the stuff that we're doing.

• 48:08Kara Swisher?

  Because they're dead sexy, as you noted, but go ahead.

• 48:10Speaker 00

  Because the stuff that we're doing actually makes a difference. And if you actually make a difference, then that should, that should show up in your market cap over a range of time. And I really do believe that, like, like, I'm super excited about what we have in front of us. And yes, AI is a big piece of that. But AI is, you know, a piece of a larger story of how do we use tech to make the lives of billions of people better?

• 48:36Kara Swisher?

  So on that, you have an event coming up in June called Advancing AI 2025, um, about the vision for AI. But tell me what you think, what is the thing that people aren't thinking about right now? And what's the thing they're thinking too much about right now? What would you say is overhyped and underhyped, I guess?

• 48:52Speaker 00

  I, I think people are spending too much time trying to predict exactly what's going to happen in the short term.

• 48:58Kara Swisher?

  The bubble.

• 48:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 48:59Kara Swisher?

  When's the bubble bursting?

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Is it bubble? Is it digestion? You know, what's the latest model? Is um, you know, is some model going to come out and, you know, change the world? When is AGI coming? I think we're probably spending too many, too much time on those types of questions because everybody wants the answer. And there is no answer.

• 49:17Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 49:17Speaker 00

  There is no answer. Um, I think where uh it's underappreciated is how early we are in the cycle. Like, it's really underappreciated that we are.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  Two years in a ten-plus-year cycle.

• 49:34Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:34Speaker 00

  That the AI that we're experiencing today is nowhere nears as good as it can be.

• 49:41Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:41Speaker 00

  And that I, you know, I truly believe that it will kind of change the norms of what we, you know, what we consider, um, you know, tech to do for us. And, you know, for enterprises, it's about business model innovation. And for, you know, us as, you know, sort of people experiencing AI, it's about, you know, making, um, you know, our lives, you know, just better.

• 50:05Kara Swisher?

  So my very close friend, be a big visionary here. What's a thing that you would love to see it do, you know, that it would?

• 50:11Speaker 00

  I can't say cure cancer.

• 50:12Kara Swisher?

  Uh-huh. You can, but I don't believe you, but.

• 50:18Speaker 00

  Um, I, I, I think as a more generic thing, I think AI can really accelerate the rate and pace of research beyond what we're thinking about today. Today, you talk about AI agents and you think about agents as like customer service agents.

• 50:34Kara Swisher?

  Right, here, let me get your ticket.

• 50:36Speaker 00

  Yes, these kinds of things. Like, I think about AI as, um, you know, PhD researchers that are helping us solve the next, you know, set of problems that we have. And I don't believe that they're taking over people's jobs. Actually, I really don't. Um, I believe that they are making us, uh, they're helping us accelerate the rate and pace that we learn at.

• 50:58Kara Swisher?

  And of your things that you're most nervous about? So that's techno-optimist, techno-nervous.

• 51:07Speaker 00

  Techno-nervous is that we, we get too scared of the technology.

• 51:13Kara Swisher?

  Hmm.

• 51:14Speaker 00

  No.

• 51:15Kara Swisher?

  Meaning?

• 51:16Speaker 00

  Meaning, um, you know, I know there's this whole conversation about how much to regulate, how much not to regulate.

• 51:21Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, and a lot of very important AI researchers are part of that. It's not just crazy people or Hollywood.

• 51:27Speaker 00

  Um, but I think you can work through those things.

• 51:30Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:30Speaker 00

  Like, I really believe you can work through those things. So one shouldn't be too afraid of it. One shouldn't slow down.

• 51:36Kara Swisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:37Speaker 00

  Like, that's, that's my belief.

• 51:38Kara Swisher?

  All right, everybody. Please listen.

• 51:50Kara Swisher?

  On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Rosell, Kateri Okum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcasts. Special thanks to Claire Cronin and Eric Litke. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you're as dead sexy as a semiconductor chip. If not, you've got negative slack at this point. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher, and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.