Zoe’s Husband Drugged Her Evening Tea. For Years He Assaulted Her While She Slept

In 2018 Zoe Watts' family believed her 16-year marriage was ending due to an affair. Struggling with debilitating panic attacks, sleeplessness, and nervous breakdowns, she finally confided in her sister, revealing a far more horrifying reality. Her husband hadn't just splintered their family with infidelity; he confessed to secretly drugging her with their son's sleeping medication and sexually abusing her while she was unconscious. Years before the world learned the name Gisèle Pelicot, Zoe was forced to navigate the shadowed, rarely discussed reality of spousal drug-facilitated rape. After seeing her husband sentenced to 11 years in prison, Zoe waived her legal anonymity to share her story as part of a global CNN investigation exposing online "rape academies"—hidden communities where thousands of men swap tips for drugging their partners. In this episode of True Crime Conversations, Gemma Bath speaks with Zoe Watts about surviving unimaginable betrayal, standing up against secret online networks, and her crusade to reform the laws that allow this crime to fester in the dark. Listen to 'Inside The Hidden Network Of Men Drugging And Raping Their Wives' here. https://www.mamamia.com.au/podcasts/true-crime-conversations/gisele-pelicot-global-rape-academy-cnn-investigation/ LINKS We want to hear from you! Take our quick 3-minute survey for your chance to win a $1,000 gift card. https://survey.alchemer.com/s3/8954679/HF-BUS-2026 If any of the contents in this episode have caused distress, know that there is help available via Lifeline on 13 11 14 or Beyond Blue on 1300 22 4636. Contact Full Stop Australia https://fullstop.org.au/ on 1800 385 578, 7 days, 24 hours. GET IN TOUCH Follow us on Instagram and TikTok @truecrimeconversations https://www.instagram.com/truecrimeconversations/?hl=en Want us to cover a case on the podcast? Email us at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] or send us a voice note. https://help.mamamia.com.au/en-US/send-a-podcast-voice-note-467960 MAMAMIA OFFERS: Get access to Very Peri, Mamamia's exclusive perimenopause series, for just $59. 25 world-leading experts, over 20 on-demand sessions, available now. We’ve sorted through the noise so you don't have to. Go toveryperi.com.au http://veryperi.com.au/ today. You hot? Same. Make sure to leave us a rating and review on Apple & Spotify to let us know how you're liking the episodes. CREDITS Host & Executive Producer: Gemma Bath Guest: Zoe Watts Senior Producer: Tahli Blackman Producer: Ella Maitland Video Editor: Julian Rosario Audio Design: Tegan Sadler Mamamia acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on which we have recorded this podcast. Become a Mamamia subscriber: https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe https://www.mamamia.com.au/subscribe See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Gemma Bath?

  It's 2018 in Devon, England, and Zoe Watts' family think she's mourning the end of her 16-year marriage because of an affair. That's what she told them a few months ago. Ever since, she's been struggling to function. Nervous breakdowns, panic attacks, unable to sleep or eat. She can feel it's starting to impact her four children. So she sits her sister down and it all comes tumbling out. Her husband didn't just splinter their life with the admission of infidelity. He told her he's been drugging her with their son's sleeping medication and having sex with her unconscious body.

• 0:43Gemma Bath?

  For Zoe, the last few months have felt like white noise. With no memories of the abuse, she's struggling to wrap her head around the years of rape she's endured at the hands of someone she loves. But her sister has no doubt. This is a crime. Once their mum is told, she doesn't hesitate. They immediately call police.

• 1:17Gemma Bath?

  I'm Gemma Bath and you're listening to True Crime Conversations, a podcast exploring the world's most notorious crimes by speaking to the people who know the most about them. And just a warning, this episode contains distressing descriptions of drug-induced assault. In 2024, we learnt the name Giselle Pellico and the crime of drug-induced rape was thrust into the international spotlight. The Pellico case was particularly harrowing as Giselle's husband hadn't just drugged and raped her himself, he'd invited 50 other men into their home to do so too. The case shocked the world, but for Zoe Watts, this crime wasn't new.

• 2:02Gemma Bath?

  She'd been to trial two years prior with her husband sentenced to 11 years in prison for doing the same thing to her.

• 2:12Gemma Bath?

  When her case was going through the courts, she had no other examples to pull from because this crime has laid in the shadows for decades. Giselle's bravery inspired Zoe's and in 2026, she shared her story publicly with CNN for the first time as part of their investigation unveiling the online rape academy and the true extent of this horrific offending. We spoke to the journalist behind that investigation in a previous episode, which we'll link in our show notes. That report revealed group chats started through porn websites in which thousands of men swap tips and tricks for drugging and raping their partners.

• 2:56Gemma Bath?

  Every time one of these websites is shut down, another pops up in its place. Zoe has now joined the fight to take these men down, starting a campaign to build awareness, community, education, and most importantly, change laws that allow this crime to fester. This is her story.

• 3:22Gemma Bath?

  Zoe, thank you for joining us on True Crime Conversations. I wanted to start by saying, I'm so sorry this happened to you. And I'm also so sorry about all of the abuse and criticism and victim shaming you have received after telling your story, which is something I never thought that I would say. I'm in shock that that's even happened to you.

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was thinking about that last night.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Just, you know, how is it that when you finally, you know, you know, get the strength to speak about your experience, there's a whole fresh new lot of silencing?

• 4:01Speaker 01

  I find that very difficult to, you know, I find it very difficult to process because you don't, you don't know where it's coming from. You know, you know, the attack, you know, where that source is once you, you've understood that that's where the initial violence happened. But the victim shaming, it comes out of nowhere. I've experienced it in some very strange places with and without the children. So it really does destabilize you once again.

• 4:27Gemma Bath?

  Let's take listeners back to the start. When you met this man, who is now your ex-husband, you were quite young, weren't you?

• 4:35Speaker 01

  Seventeen, yes. Yeah.

• 4:37Gemma Bath?

  Do you remember what it felt like to meet him? Was it, you know, love at first sight? What was that early relationship like?

• 4:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd say it probably was love at first sight.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  I look back now and I, I know that none of it was love.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  But I can only speak to what I was feeling at the time and I was wholeheartedly swept off my feet by this man who seemed, you know, I always say, you know, for Tinder, you know, you're quite right. You know, he had, you know, good connections with his family, good friends, good education, good job. There wasn't anything that you kind of had to think, oh, well, you know, maybe if he just stopped gaming too much, he would be okay. It just seemed perfect.

• 5:24Gemma Bath?

  And the age gap, because there was like a 10-year age gap between the two of you. That wasn't a concern?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Um, not at the time, no. It's only been a concern realistically, I think, as society moved on because back then, you say back then, I feel old.

• 5:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, back then, the age wasn't really an issue. I, you know, became 18 and by that point he was sort of 28, 29. So sometimes there was an 11-year gap and I don't think it was an issue, but now in hindsight, and I know I've mentioned this before, my eldest son has said, mum, I just think you were groomed. She said, I think you were groomed at the time. And I think, I haven't already broken that down, but I know that if my daughters or my sons have walked in the door with somebody 10 to 11 years older, I'd be turning them around and marching them back.

• 6:19Gemma Bath?

  Also, when you were 17, when I was 17, we, we didn't really know about grooming. How cool that your son knows what that is.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I'm proud, I'm very proud, proud of all my children. I'm proud of the way that they have, have managed this situation. But yeah, I think it does speak to, you know, the changes that we can make by speaking out. I describe drug facilitated rape as a silent crime and it's as silent as domestic violence was 20 to 30 years ago. You know, it's happening in a home near you, but people don't believe it.

• 6:53Gemma Bath?

  Well, before it happened to you, had you heard about it?

• 6:56Speaker 01

  No. Just the, you know, I'd heard of spiking and me and my friends would all make sure that we would get back safe, you know, if we were out to lunch or out having a drink or something, somebody's birthday. And I'd heard of, you know, that making sure you get home, don't walk on your own anywhere. That, that was about as much as my education stretched to growing up in school and colleges.

• 7:23Gemma Bath?

  I was the same. I don't think I had properly heard about it until the Pellico case in 2024. That's when it kind of got catapulted across the world. But I think a lot of us have been living in the dark about this crime.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think society on the whole has. But doing what I do now, I now realize it, you know, there's some people that are engaged in the campaign that are in their seventies that has experienced it. You've got to think they would have been born in the 50s, you know, 60s. And I think medication back then, it wasn't as stringent. So you even had like fentanyl derivatives in cough syrup and things, didn't you back then? So, you know, some women have come forward and said that that's what they encountered within their relationship. And obviously divorce was very much frowned upon around about that time too.

• 8:13Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 8:15Gemma Bath?

  Let's get back to your relationship, family life. You had four children together. You know, raising kids is a lot, parenting alongside each other. You were with each other for, you know, nearly two decades. What was that like? What was raising a family together like for you?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Well, it had its, it had its ups and downs. I mean, the, the ups was he maintained a level of social adoration. So his outward projection of what he was like as a father and as a husband was fantastic. So there were times that it looked great and you would rely on those big gestures to think, okay, things are going back to normal now. It will be fine. And I, I can just speak to the dynamic that he had arranged a blessing day. So for a guy, and I don't, I don't want to be gender stereotype, but he went out of

• 9:13Speaker 01

  his way to arrange a blessing day. So he contacted the minister of the church in which we got married, saved up about £500 in an envelope, booked in a hair appointment for me, was looking, arranged to look after the children with him and I think my mum while I went shopping. And he arranged a meal in the, the hotel that we had our wedding reception. So I woke up one morning and he handed me the envelope and he told me what was going to happen on Saturday and he'd invited everybody. And I thought, wow, like this guy must really love me. So all of a sudden, 40 people are turning up for, you know, the renewing of our wedding vows.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  Well, it turned out that he was feeling guilty that he was sleeping with my best friend at the time when I was pregnant. So that lends to the, the double narrative that you don't quite feel safe, but there's something brilliant going on and you just want more of that.

• 10:16Speaker 01

  But then there were times when it was very difficult. He was never not poorly. He was always poorly and that probably started about three weeks into the relationship. And initially it was put down to the death of his dad, that he wasn't coping and he was going to get help. And I found very quickly that there was always something that he wasn't coping with. And this was the excuse of his poor behaviour. So it was managing him and his illness as well as running a family.

• 10:47Gemma Bath?

  When you say that led to bad behaviour, was that, was it, was it abusive? Was it, were you living in a DV relationship? Did you realise that at the time?

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I didn't realise, no. I remember the first time within three weeks, he sort of grabbed hold of me and was like batting me down this alleyway.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  And.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  I still don't know why. And I remember reaching out to some family members on his side and reaching out to his friends saying, you know, I, I don't understand this. I was seventeen and I hadn't come across that before, you know. I've got a, you know, good circle of friends. It's just nothing I'd ever encountered. You know, my upbringing wasn't anything similar. And his family sort of suggested and friends suggested, did he drink Jack Daniels? And I thought, well, yeah, he had Jack Daniels and Coke. And they said, well, yeah, that doesn't agree with him. He drinks Jack Daniels and Coke. You know, he really can't cope and gets aggressive. So as long as he avoids that, then he'll, he'll be okay.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Um, and that, that level of excusing set the course of the relationship, that something would happen, there would always be an excuse.

• 11:57Gemma Bath?

  So did that physical violence increase then over the years?

• 12:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it definitely did. Um, to whether it was outward threats. Um, and I can just explain that, you know, the atmosphere in the room would change first. You know, I'm very atmosphere, atmospheric sensitive really. Um. I remember sort of driving in a car one time, or he was driving actually, and I remember just feeling the atmosphere changed. And I looked at him and I thought he's going to punch me in the face. And I remember when he called the car over and we got to some friend's house, I was really scared that they could see. And then they asked what was going on. And I said from across the room, you were going to punch me in the face. He said, yeah, it's, I took, it's everything in my body not to.

• 12:45Speaker 01

  And so I could just, I, I, I could feel it with feeling. And as time progressed, he would suffocate me in my sleep. Um, he stalked me. Yeah, I mean, all sorts really, when I look back. But it was a mixture of an emotional abuse, your emotions are being abused. There was a psychological aspect where I was constantly doubting my reality and who this person was. But of course he loved me because we were making plans as a family, as well as the physical abuse and then the sexual.

• 13:18Gemma Bath?

  Obviously, we're going to talk about the drug facilitated rape. But before that, before you became aware of that, was there any sexual violence that you were aware of when you were awake?

• 13:28Speaker 01

  No, no, there wasn't any that I remember when I was awake. Um. And I think that that again makes this difficult, but, um, because, I mean, I guess that would give me an answer, wouldn't it? The only thing I can say is that there were times from two thousand and nine that I did wake up. Um. I would say as he'd finished. So whether the sedation had worn off or not, I'm not sure. Um, but he was very clever. He wasn't sitting there saying, it didn't happen. I don't know what you're talking about, Zoe. You must be crazy.

• 14:10Speaker 01

  Um, what he, what happened was, one of the times that I woke up, this man was sort of sat on the end of the bed, you know, head in hands, broken, crying, saying, oh, I don't know what's just happened to me. I don't feel right. Something's not right. I'm so sorry. You know, what, what's happened? And then I'd be thinking, well, what? And then he went to the doctor, he started going to the doctor and saying, um, I have woken up to find myself having sex with her. I don't want to. Can you help me?

• 14:50Speaker 01

  So it seemed like this poor man, this was just another phase of his mental illness that was being considered by the medical professionals and therefore the abuse continued.

• 15:00Gemma Bath?

  Were you planning to leave him? Or did you see a future with this man?

• 15:05Speaker 01

  No, I think, I stayed with him, because it, it wasn't rape. He, th- those words weren't even, I mean, his doctor was contacting a consultant at a hospital to see, you know, just what was going on, you know? Um, so they, they were not at all concerned about my well-being. They weren't concerned about what was happening. It was as if he was going in with an ingrown toenail, really destabilising. Um. So I just thought this was just something, you know, that I was, you know, experiencing, we were experiencing together. You know, I was just on the receiving end of it almost, you know?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Um, it only got to, it got to about two thousand and fifteen, two thousand and sixteen, and things really got bad. Um. With a mixed, well, it got bad all round really with the domestic violence and you know, the emotional, the psychological. And then I was thinking, I think I'm going to have to have a break. I, I couldn't, I couldn't cope with being his carer as well as being a mum and running a business. Um, so I think we had around about a six week break and then he got well and then he got back together.

• 16:20Gemma Bath?

  Before he made his confession of the much more sinister things he was doing, were there any symptoms that you now look back on in hindsight and think, oh, that, that was a sign that I wasn't aware of?

• 16:34Speaker 01

  As in physical ones for me?

• 16:37Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I'd experienced, um, for, for years, thrush and I, I never knew why. I couldn't, sometimes as a woman, you can track it down to the cycle or you can track it back to a sexual experience and you think, oh, okay. Maybe I should have gone to the toilet afterwards or something. But, um, I was struggling with that and I was struggling with, um, you know, like idiopathic, nonspecific urine infections. Um, and it was the police that had explained to me that they found, you know, those things in my medical records that, um, you know, can attest to times that I also contacted the GP. Um, there was a correlation and I wasn't really sure. I also thought at one point in time, I thought I had a brain tumor because I was so.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I'd have bouts of just feeling sick and migraine-y. My body, my body wasn't well. I can't, I can't explain it. And I thought, I'm gonna have, and I've got a brain tumor and I'm going to die. My migraines got so bad that I had an MRI, which didn't reveal anything, which is great. And then things just get put down to stress, you know, hormones. You, you're going through a lot right now. Um. So, yeah, I think I put down the nausea and the exhaustion and the migraines and the thrush and, you know, just being run down. And I think the GPs did as well.

• 18:01Gemma Bath?

  After the break, Zoe tells me about the day her ex-husband confessed what he'd been doing to her in her sleep.

• 18:10Gemma Bath?

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• 18:46Gemma Bath?

  Take me to 2018, which is when he made his confession. What did your life look like at that point? So you had all this stuff going on with the health. How old were your kids? What kind of situation were you in, in life?

• 18:59Speaker 01

  I'm just trying to think.

• 19:02Speaker 01

  I think my eldest is probably about fourteen, fifteen. And so my other one, my other son would have been about, um, eleven, twelve. And then my daughter would have been about nine, ten, and my other one would have been about five and six. Um, so quite young. I think.

• 19:22Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, still in the midst of parenting.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, I know. But they, oh, they saved my life. But, um.

• 19:31Speaker 01

  Think, um, at the time, we were really heavily involved in a church and we were running courses. So, um, so now Bear Grylls does the Alpha Course, which is just an exploration of your relationship with God. So we were running that. We were running ironically, J John Just Ten, which is the Ten Commandments. So, you know, thou shall not steal, thou shall not commit adultery, thou shall not commit murder. But within those educational packages, we broke down what adultery looks like and how it stems from lust. And we broke down thou shall not commit murder and that stems from anger.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  And I, I'll always remember to this day, those two separate weeks that we ran out of the commandments. He refused to come and was really poorly and somebody else had to do it. And I look back now and I think, yeah, well, you know.

• 20:26Gemma Bath?

  Guilty conscience got ya.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Absolutely did. Didn't stop him. They did it.

• 20:31Gemma Bath?

  No.

• 20:33Speaker 01

  But, yeah, so we were, we were really involved in that. We were involved in, um, you know, there was like an outreach programme that people would come and we would get some food and stuff. So, you know, again, there was this, um, different persona of who this guy was, you know, on the face of it. Um, but I think, yeah, we were attending church every Sunday, doing things one to two evenings a week. And and it, it, you know, there seemed to be some fulfillment from that. Uh, we would always have a family day at the weekend with the children as well. They had their various different clubs. Um, on a side note to that, he had decided to go into a fellowship programme from around about two thousand fifteen, sixteen, when things had got out of hand.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Uh, it was an anonymous fellowship programme. Somebody was trying to help because they'd known this guy for eleven years and they knew that he was on a desperate quest to get well and to get better and to cope. So, you know, they suggested like, if you've ever had a problem with drink or drugs, or you've ever had a problem with sex, whatever it is, whatever the addiction is, you might find this place helpful. So he joined this fellowship programme, synonymous twelve step recovery. But why that's so important was because within the church section, some of these guys came. So I was engaging with them regularly, weekly, and one of them was his sponsor.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  So every day he would speak to his sponsor. Every week they would meet and they would run through the step work programme. I don't know if you're familiar with it.

• 22:11Gemma Bath?

  No.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  The sort of step one is you have to admit you've got a problem. So if you're an alcoholic, you've got to admit that you're an addict. Step two is you've got to seek something outside of yourself. So one and two were done very easily. Step three was something like you write a character defects list of all the things you struggle with. So that might be pride, self indulgence or lust or whatever it is that's driving you to act out. You know, step four, you write a list of people that you've harmed. So it might have been, well, I was fifteen, I stole money from my aunt to go and get my alcohol. Then something like step five is you tell that person and you put it right, should it cause some harm. So.

• 22:55Speaker 01

  I remember when he went into the programme, he used the programme as well as religion as another excuse for poor behaviour. So it would be, I've had a really bad day working my step work today. I really can't cope. Or he would say, I've just spoken to my sponsor and it's not gone well. Or step four is really difficult. Have you ever tried to look at all the things that you've done wrong? So he used, you know, mental health, the step work and religion as tools to systematically abuse me.

• 23:28Speaker 01

  So between two thousand and fifteen to two thousand and eighteen, he must have gone through his step work because you repeat them. You go through one to twelve and you repeat them or one to four, you act out and then you go back to step one. So it's a constant cycle. At this point in two thousand and eighteen, we had realised when he gave me the confession that this, a group of men in the fellowship knew what he was doing. So they had known since two thousand and fifteen, sixteen of the various different types of abuse that I was encountering. And I was standing up there on a Sunday or on a Wednesday night, talking them through. And there was this guy chatting away, how narcissistic,

• 24:13Speaker 01

  about the love of God and how you should treat people. And in the audience is a group of guys thinking, well, he's gonna go home and rape her tonight and drug her up. I just, I can't get my head around that at all. And that's why.

• 24:27Gemma Bath?

  The fact that it's not just your husband, it's all these other men that were complicit.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, and they knew for years and they also met the children. So, you know, we'd exchanged phone numbers. There was an outside relationship. I was, and I'm not, it's not to say that if I was Joe Block's down the street, they shouldn't have helped. But there was a relationship with these people where we had developed a kinship, a friendship, a supportive network. So when two thousand and eighteen occurred, I, as time progressed, I started to realise the extent of what had happened to me, but it took me time.

• 25:06Gemma Bath?

  I, I'm, I'm flabbergasted that all these men knew before you.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 25:14Gemma Bath?

  So he admitted to you what he'd been doing on a random Sunday. Do you think it was this, these ten steps, like a guilty conscience? Why, why did he eventually come clean?

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Hmm. I don't think it was. I think, I mean, it would be easy, right? Oh gosh, he feels so bad. He's told me a guilty conscience. But if that was the case and he was really genuine in his confession, confession and changing his behaviour a hundred and eighty degrees, you know, um, he wouldn't have done what he did for the remaining four years and he would have pled guilty.

• 25:48Gemma Bath?

  Hmm. There was no remorse.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  No. What I think was as this man had got me in such a vulnerable, emotionally and physically, in a vulnerable state, that when you're in that dynamic of a domestic, or some sort of an abusive relationship, you know, the person that's abusing you, you, because you're so unaware that that's what's happening, you end up turning to them for comfort.

• 26:17Speaker 01

  I personally believe that these sorts of people are very inadequate individuals. They can't sustain and fulfil their needs through, you know, loving themselves and receiving genuine love from other people. That they, they seek to fill the void of inadequacy through power. And I believe that he'd already got me in a position where I knew I was being suffocated and the GPs knew that I was being suffocated. And that wasn't an issue. They knew that he tried to drive me into a lifeboat station wall at sixty miles an hour and they just told me to take away his keys.

• 26:58Gemma Bath?

  What?

• 26:59Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I know, yeah. So I think that he was deriving more and more satisfaction and power from me, almost being aware of it. It got to the point that I was sat in a room with a counsellor

• 27:16Speaker 01

  saying, because it was like he's parading me round. He said, I, I said, I, I don't understand what's happened. He's admitted to having an affair. He's admitted to drugging me. Well, I didn't say drugging me. I said, put in my son's sleeping medication in my drink to sedate me, to have sex with me. Uh, to, to tie me down, take photographs of me. And she just shushed me and said, can you see him? And he's like this. That he's not, he's not coping. So when you see him looking like this, you need to stop talking. You need to give him time and space. So I think it was almost like, I mean, I knew everything and he was still getting away with it. And the abuse was still continuing, I think.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  And the, the physical abuse was continuing for sure, you know, the suffocations. And, and we derived from the suffocations had then gone on to the outward strangling. Um, so I think that he was getting that fix that, you know, that he had to run it in up in the ante and I think my death would have been next.

• 28:25Gemma Bath?

  So I guess you've answered my question in that he admits it, confesses and you guys kind of try and stay together for a period? And try and kind of work through what he'd just told you?

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, my family knew about the affair and friends knew about the affair. Um, he had admitted to, um, struggling with sex to certain members of the congregation and, and, and to certain people outwardly in front of me and said, look, I'm really struggling with this. I'm struggling with online content and can you do anything that can help? It's quite different because a lot of the time you get an abuser that shies away from the abuse, but he, he just took enough, not responsibility, but on the outward, outward image of him, he was saying, hey, look, I'm human, I've got faults, I need help, will you help me?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  So from the outside, people are like, God, this man. I mean, he's really trying. He's, oh, he's really, let's pray for you. Let's, let's meet tonight and we'll do some more step work, you know? Go out, relax, it's been a hard week. Yeah, you don't often get that with an abuser, but that is how confident he had become.

• 29:39Gemma Bath?

  It feels like a dystopia that people thought that this was acceptable. He admitted to restraining you, photographing and videoing you as well as the rape. Did he tell you what he was doing with those videos and photos?

• 29:56Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. And I really, and again, I didn't pick up on this till a couple of weeks ago. I've got some clippings from the court. And I've got the, um, uh, criminal journal, um, reporter that was in during the sessions. And it's even printed that he was standing in the dock saying, oh, I took arty photographs of her. I took arty videos of her. Why wasn't he charged? He's standing in the Crown Court, admitting to doing it, but was never questioned on it and was never charged with it. It's crazy. And I've only just realised it now.

• 30:35Gemma Bath?

  So he wasn't charged for that portion of it, for the photography and the videoing?

• 30:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 30:40Gemma Bath?

  Surely, surely that's a crime as well.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  Well, it is. Yeah.

• 30:44Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 30:44Speaker 01

  It is. But his excuse was she wanted me to. When he told me, he said, I've taken, you know, the videos and images of you, but it's for your benefit, Zoe. You don't want me looking online at other women. I've already had an affair. So if I'm looking at the content that I'm making of you, then if I could be so crude, he said, oh, I'm not masturbating to anybody else. So you don't want me to do that, do you? So it was for my benefit, he said.

• 31:12Gemma Bath?

  Wow, the manipulation. Well, CNN's investigation this year revealed that.

• 31:19Gemma Bath?

  Men, thousands of men, are using porn sites and then entering chat groups and basically swapping tips on doing this very thing, drug facilitated rape. Do you think he might have, do we have any proof that he was in these groups? That he was sharing these photos of you there? Or at least talking to these men there?

• 31:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So when he'd admitted to certain people that he was struggling with looking, you know, at porn sites and adult material.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  We went up to his work and me and another guy went through the computers and put loads of blocks on to make sure it was safe at work and at home. The police only ever took his phone. I asked them to take his computers, but they didn't think it was necessary. But on that, we found loads of different profiles on websites that I just couldn't even tell you. I just knew that they were adult content. It's not something at the time that I wanted to be. I mean, I wasn't aware that I needed to go down the rabbit hole.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  But it's not something that I, I wanted to be doing. But I thought, well, I don't want this stuff on our work computers. And it was before the police, that the security was put on them. And you can get like a wifi that blocks certain things. But once the police were involved, I said to them, do you want to take the computers? Cause he would be going up to work at night and then coming home and saying that he was working late. And they said, no.

• 32:56Gemma Bath?

  Zoe, when you go on mainstream porn websites, it feels like most of the content on there is quite violent. And then you've got this extra sub kind of area that is this sleep content that's extra sinister. How do we change this? How do we help our young boys to not be sucked into these horrible whirlpools?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's really disturbing. I remember being on a bus within the last six months and hearing sort of 13, 14 year old boys talking about CNC porn. And I was thinking, what? Like, my worry is that these young lads are going online on these, you know, sites. And you don't click far, you click on it and there is something disgusting. As in, you know, Daddy wakes daughter or, you know, strangled to the point of eyes rolling. Just, and I think that I'm really worried that we are desensitizing our children and

• 34:05Speaker 01

  that these, these girls think it's acceptable to be treated that way. And that boys think it's acceptable to treat a young girl that way. And I think if you've got 13, 14 year olds that are being shown by adults that this is something that is thrilling and acceptable and all is one click away, then it's not a far stretch to think how they end up going down the wrong rabbit hole. Obviously it's different to actually acting it out, but I mean, past proves future in that respect, they are in their hundreds of thousands. So I am really concerned and think there needs to be a re-education of what is and isn't acceptable.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And again, tackling the porn industry for making the content to begin with.

• 34:53Gemma Bath?

  Did he tell you how long he'd been doing this to you?

• 34:56Speaker 01

  No, but I know it started in easily 2009, possibly the end of 2008, because that's when I first went to the doctor to say, um, I woke up to find him, you know? Am I okay? You know?

• 35:14Speaker 01

  I, I think I was checking if I needed contraception or, you know? So I know that it would have happened around about 2008, 2009 was the start of it.

• 35:25Gemma Bath?

  So forgive my very bad math, but you would have had been pregnant or had young, like just postpartum in some of these rapes?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I know for, um, I know I, my last child, um, I had mastitis. Are you familiar with what that is?

• 35:46Gemma Bath?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Breast infection, yeah, well, yeah, painful, right? And stitches. And I was infected like top and bottom. And you walk around all day padded up. And so at night time, I went to bed on a towel, we're not wearing anything on to just air off and try and let the infections heal when I was on antibiotics. And this was four weeks after birth. And then I woke up, my first sexual encounter was with him raping me. And I had to go back to the GP to say, I'm breastfeeding, I'm not on any contraception. You need to go to your GP, this has happened again. You need to tell your GP that what he's doing isn't working. You need more treatment.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  And again, he was just sat on the bed saying, I just, I don't know what happened. I mean, are you all right? What's, what's going on? At the time, it, you know, it, again, it was, I was looking after him. It was very strange.

• 36:43Gemma Bath?

  That's also incredibly dangerous to even be having sex four weeks postpartum. There's just so, it's just so wrong on so many levels when you unpack it. I want to talk about, cause this was like the big revelation. You obviously knew something was happening, but in the confession, he said, I've been crushing our son's sleep medication. So he admitted that he'd been drugging you.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:09Gemma Bath?

  Was it a prescription medication? Does this mean your son wasn't getting medication? What was happening there?

• 37:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly that, yeah. And there were times that we'd go to the GP to increase the medication because it wasn't working. And also at the time, due to what was happening in my life and my migraine's getting worse, I was on medication as well. So I was having various different drugs to try and help with my medication that also had a sedative effect. So I mean, one of the drugs I remember was amitriptyline. And that can be used as an antidepressant at a relatively low dose, but at the high dose, it can be used to treat pain, say migraines, it's a nerve blocker and can also be used to treat symptoms like Ertcuria. And then those days, dosages are sort of 50 to 60 milligrams up, while I was on like

• 37:59Speaker 01

  150 milligrams. So there were all sorts of different migraine medications that I would be taking as a preemptive to, to, you know, stop a preventative, if you like, that I was taking nightly on top. So I wonder if he, you know, just almost increased my dose of sedative by using the sleeping medication. But what sort of a father, it's not a father, I'm just guessing, what sort of a father does that? That is not what a father does, so I don't know. Yeah.

• 38:32Gemma Bath?

  Cause your son is prescribed sleeping medication for a reason. And he's taking that away from a child.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:40Gemma Bath?

  The routine that you had of an evening was a nightly tea, right? That's what he used to do for you? You know, a kind act?

• 38:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 38:51Gemma Bath?

  When you found out that he'd been using that kind of nice evening routine to basically facilitate this assault on you, what was that like? Cause I can imagine that's like another extra level of betrayal when you find out that, you know, the kindness that he was showing was actually not kind.

• 39:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't really thought about that. That's a really good question. As I said, every day is a school day for me. I'm learning something new about what happened to me as well. I think, um, yeah, the usual routine was that he would be making me a cup of tea and I'd be running around, you know, sorting the house out ready for the next morning, you know, lunches and whatnot. You know, I think as, you know, relationships progress, you almost form roles of who does what. I, I can't figure out how it got to that point of him making my tea and looking down and thinking, I know what I'm gonna do. I know what I could do tomorrow night. I don't know how it started. I mean, yeah, it is a, I mean, the whole thing is a violation of trust, isn't it?

• 39:59Speaker 01

  And you trust your intimate partner, probably more so than anybody, you know? Definitely equal or even more so than your parents, because you, you are now a team. You share your every thought with this person. But yeah, that is just, I can't, I can't even imagine it. My brain can't go there.

• 40:18Gemma Bath?

  Do you think in this process, your brain has protected you a lot? Can you just not think about certain things because it's too hard?

• 40:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. So once it had happened and, oh, I said, once it had happened, once the police were involved, because he broke in that night as well.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  And that was just a horrific evening. He was arrested. Within about four days, I ended up hospitalized with a kidney stone. I think I was in hospital for about six days. Needed an operation, it wasn't passing. And then I remember coming home and laying on the sofa just thinking.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  I didn't, I didn't wanna die, I didn't wanna, but I also didn't wanna carry on. There were no active thoughts of suicide, but I just. My life was gone, my life was gone. I didn't know what was real in my past. My whole future had been taken away from me, been taken away from us as a family. Um, I, I was slowly breaking down with the police that they were saying that you are being raped, you have been being raped for all these years. And I remember my mum saying, right, this is gonna make you a break you. My mum's fantastic, I loved her pizzas and um it was a really, I mean, it was a really um

• 41:41Speaker 01

  strong chat. She said, look, you are, all your kids have got now, so this will make you. Or, and she was right. And I thought, oh my god, yeah, like there's my future is gone, well, what about theirs? I'm not gonna let, you know, this affect them any more than what it has to. Obviously, they had to adjust to him not being there and they found out very quickly what he had done. But I threw myself into um making memories and rebuilding our new family unit.

• 42:14Speaker 01

  So there was a level of disassociation um that I just, this thing, it, it was just, it was over here. I can reel off the list of things that this man has done to me as if it's a newspaper article or about somebody else. I, I struggled to engage and connect with my emotions. Um, and I'm working through that now with a neuropsychotherapist who is absolutely fantastic. But I do not allow myself as a protective mechanism to, to get emotionally connected to it. So I'm hoping in time, because that also is I was diagnosed with a functioning neurological disorder a few years ago because I lost the ability to talk properly and

• 42:56Speaker 01

  I had left hand side weakness and um I was sort of um almost like um jerking, I was having involuntary body movements. And they said it was um a, a neurological disorder brought on by trauma. So I'm having to work through what has happened to me very slowly in a secure environment. So not to exasperate my symptoms. I had about a year and a half's worth of speech and language therapy to get to where I am today.

• 43:26Gemma Bath?

  Zoe, you are the third victim survivor who has told me about having a chronic autoimmune condition after something they've suffered. That, that is it is such a mind blowing thing that I think is so understudied, the fact that your body reacts like that. Sure, surely we need people looking into this, my goodness.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think you're right. I've come across a few survivors that have had that. But I mean, when I was, you know, in the hospital, they were saying to me, look, I didn't think it was trauma, but the hospital was saying, we know that women that have experienced or people that have experienced trauma can go on to develop a neurological condition called functioning neurological disorder. Um, so I'm hoping that as time is progressing and people are becoming more vocal, that they are correlating the two and doing the necessary work, but you know, let's stop people experiencing trauma.

• 44:27Gemma Bath?

  How was your experience with the police? Were you believed? Were they supportive?

• 44:31Speaker 01

  They were. The police were brilliant. You know, I look back and I think, you know, were there things that they could have done differently? As in collecting the computers, would that have opened up a whole new thing? But I think some of that also is down to the CPS. I think they work very separately, although you think that they work very together, they're not. You know, the police who are investigating all day long can have all the evidence that you need, which my officer did, and he was fantastic. And then, so they had to apply to the courts for the medical records and I gave my medical records and my son's medical records over, you know, without a hitch, whereas he refused because he knew that all of his confessions were in there.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  So they then had to go to court to force the medical records. And then when the CPS had all that information, after eighteen months of the investigation, they contacted me and said, we're not going to prosecute. And my officer, who was fantastic, came out to the house. He could have just pinged it over in an email, or they just sent me an email anyway, so, but he was so engaged in this, um, and was so aware of what this man, who he really was and what this man had done. I can't fault that. And my idva and isva, my isva was absolutely fantastic. And I went to the CPS and I had to champion myself through the victim liaison and be my own advocate.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  I remember writing to them, you know, every couple of days, you know, he has confessed in his medical records. What do you need? My body? You know, do you need a dead body? Are you actually gonna do something? And then it took over a year for them to say, yeah, okay, we've made a mistake. Thank you for bringing it to our attention. We will prosecute him. So it could be that the CPS, because they didn't charge him. Uh, there's a separate offence if you have sex, if, or if you raped somebody in front of a minor. And it doesn't matter what age the minor is, but they didn't charge him with the sexual assault of when I woke up and my daughter was in the Moses basket.

• 46:44Speaker 01

  They didn't charge for the online content, they didn't charge for any of the domestic violence, but for me, I want that, I want that charge for that, and I want that charge for that, and I want, I want that recognition and that punishment for him. But the police were good, but I think the CPS are struggling.

• 47:03Gemma Bath?

  Up next, Zoe recounts what the court process was like and the four year wait between charges and the trial.

• 47:12Gemma Bath?

  Well, he was only charged with four charges in the end. You waited four years to go to trial. What was that experience like for you? Because he could have saved you a lot of pain, but he pled not guilty.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'll never forget that. He

• 47:31Speaker 01

  court for me was awful. Um, I think it, there's a separate element to a drug facilitative rape with an intimate partner that you have, you know, I had eighteen years worth of my sex life on scrutiny. I remember being asked, um, did I ever use handcuffs? And I was like, yeah, I was seventeen. It's like, well, how can we prove that you weren't up for it now then? That that's, you know, so it's it's very degrading. It was almost, if I used handcuffs when I was seventeen, I was asking for it when I was twenty five. I mean.

• 48:06Gemma Bath?

  Also, you were asleep.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I guess what they're saying is that's a valid, the courts can use that as a valid defence, right? This is crazy, absolutely crazy to have that, that line of questioning even allowed. You know, because for me, consent is renewed with every new intimate transaction. It's not, well, I did something when I was seventeen, so I was asking for it ten years later. Yeah, we're saying as a judicial system that we don't have to give consent with each sexual interaction because that's certainly how it felt. You know, never mind the fact that I was sedated. Um.

• 48:45Speaker 01

  But I think that he, he became undone during the court proceedings. Um, and he annoyed the judge and the barristers. I almost feel like his veil has slipped. Um, he, it had taken years to get me in that position to make me as vulnerable as I was, to make me as accepting of my environment. And I think he thought he could do that to twelve of his peers, a judge and some barristers in the space of five, six days, and he couldn't do it.

• 49:21Gemma Bath?

  He lost.

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he blamed me, you know, that, that was allowed to be his defence. It was, she wa, she was asking for it, she wanted me to.

• 49:30Gemma Bath?

  Well, he got eleven years. Was that justice for you? Was that a surprise for you?

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Um, it was a surprise. I don't know if it was justice because my coping mechanism was that I had assigned myself to the fact that he was going to be let off. And therefore, as a mum, I had to action various things to make sure me and the children were safe. So I was quite proactive in that regard, right? He's stalking us, we need a non molestation order. If this man's walking around, what are we gonna do to protect ourselves? And then when they said that they were gonna charge him, in my mind, I thought, well, he's gonna be let off. And then I thought, okay, but at least he's gone through this. At least he's gone through this and there'll be a court record of everything that he says. So I can walk away just knowing that.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  And then when he got found guilty, I thought eighteen months community sentence, that's what he's gonna get away with. Um, as a coping mechanism, just to self, self preserve, you know, that I could still function afterwards. And then they said, no, it'll be between nine and fourteen years. Um, there was bad representation in regards to the barrister of his character. So his barrister said how wonderful it was. And he was actually for the four years enabled by this group of men working in a recovery centre for vulnerable men and women as a live-in carer, and he was caring for them. Um, and I just thought, okay, here we go again.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  They are facilitating this man working with vulnerable women who are, you know, um trying to step out of addiction, which is incredibly difficult. And they are allowing him to do so. So, you know, his barrister was saying what a wonderful guy he was. And then they also said that he was squeaky clean for the four years. And I tried to speak and say, that's not true. We've had to get a non molestation order. He has stalked us, harassed us, gone to the children's school, you know, been outside the house for four years. And I wasn't allowed my voice in court. They wouldn't let me say that. So he got eleven out of the maximum fourteen years.

• 51:43Speaker 01

  And then I remember the judge saying, um, we will never know how many times you've raped her. So here's your eleven years. But I thought, well. You know, two thousand and eight to two thousand and eighteen is ten years. Therefore, he's been given one year for raping me once every year. Where he probably been at hundreds and hundreds. So in that regard, I don't think there's justice. And I think that the sentencing is not reflective on a judge's drug facilitated rape. So another woman had experienced rape with a one time, one time rape down alley, which is horrendous, by the way. The guy should never be let out. But in, in the scale of sentencing, he got eighteen years.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  So I think, well, if you've raped somebody a hundred and fifty times, five hundred times, your sentencing should reflect that. But it doesn't, it's strange.

• 52:36Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, well, when you put it like that, it's quite glaring. When Gisele Pellicho's story broke in two thousand and twenty four, and this is like two years after all your proceedings have ended. What was that like for you, seeing something that was quite familiar to you play out on an international stage? And suddenly everyone's talking about drug induced rape.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  I mean firstly, Gisele Pellicho, incredible for coming forward and waving her anonymity. And she's absolutely right to do so. Um. But I think it's slightly different, and I'm definitely feeling that with a lot of the women that come through the campaign, because I think, I think the world stopped for Gisele, and rightly so. Because it wasn't just her husband, it was fifty other men. And I think that's very different from women that have had it with just their husband. And I'm not saying just, I'm saying just their husband.

• 53:24Gemma Bath?

  Yes.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  Because they're feeling like it's not bad enough, that maybe they could have done something different. Maybe they shouldn't have sent that joke five years ago, or my case, well, I went to bed naked, so maybe it was my fault. It's almost like there's, um, what I've experienced is, well, you've already had sex with him. Um, you should have been more kinky within your relationship and you might not have done it. Or maybe you were too kinky and let him on. You should have put out more. So I think there's, society has a, a base level of an expectation. And I think even some women are like, oh, God, I've sorted him out, I've sorted him out for the month, you know? He's had it now, I don't need to do it again. It's almost like it could be a duty, a chore.

• 54:10Speaker 01

  And so I think that there, there was a, a, a basic level of, um, mild acceptance. You know, that the man's needs need to be met. So I think women are really struggling to come forward and say, no. My husband raped me. I think with Gisele Pellicho, it was a darn sight easier to get on board with that narrative. Because how are you going to explain fifty men that this poor woman has never met? Um, and, and I'm trying to create a space for women to say, no, just, huh, just your husband, one woman, one time is one too many. That, that's it.

• 54:44Gemma Bath?

  Is that why you decided to share your story? Because you only shared recently, just this year, you waived your right to anonymity. You shared for the first time with CNN with your face and your name to your story. Is that why? Because you wanted other women to see an example?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yes. Um. I'd, I tried it one way, I tried it being anonymous, and I spoke with the family about it as well. Um, it wasn't a decision I took lightly. And then my kids were said, well, mum, if something had happened to, you know, your eldest daughter, would you be telling her to run away and hide? No, you wouldn't. You'd be standing next to her saying, it's not her fault, and this person needs to go to prison. And, you know, when my children are saying that to me, I think, God, yeah, you are right. And, um, I think with Gisele Pellicho, there had been, um, more of an acceptance for somebody that has my story to come forward and, and create a space for women where it was just their husband.

• 55:47Gemma Bath?

  Firstly, tell me about Amanda, because she's your partner in crime as you kind of, kind of fight this epidemic, it seems to be, of drug facilitated rape. You met Amanda through kind of that CNN story? She's also a victim?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, she is. Um, we wanted to exchange numbers, so Saskia, um, from CNN had facilitated that for us, bless her. And we started off with, um, you know, the old message. Um, it's, you know, you've got nothing in common, no common ground with this person, except traumatic experience. And we were learning as time went on how close our experiences were. And so, um, it was after the campaign, after the, um,

• 56:39Speaker 01

  the airing of the CNN interview, um, that we touched base a bit more. We touched base for the first sort of, I think we recorded and then there was a two to three month gap. We touched base for the first month, then it went quiet for around about a month, the audio, you okay message? And then it aired. And then I was blessed, honestly, Saskia, I was on at her all the time, like, you know, it's like I woke up. It was like, no, I'm doing something about this, but what can I do about it? Is my voice going to be enough? I think Amanda was doing the same. Um, and then I set up End Eye Check. Um, I was on my driveway and I was so frustrated. I have one of these moments where I thought, I'm doing it, I'm doing it now.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  I was already logging my story, um, online and Saskia had put me in touch and offered people to share it with. Um, to, to make a change, sort of professionally speaking. Um, but then I developed the End Eye Check, came up with it, you know, did it all. And then after a couple of weeks of doing this and engaging with, um, Saskia, Saskia said, ask Amanda. See if Amanda wants to do this with you. Um, and at first she went away to think about it. And do you know, that's what's great, because, um, having another voice, it lends to making sure we're,

• 58:03Speaker 01

  um, not catering, but, but, but reaching a wide net of women that, that people can relate to. So for me, I named it End Eye Check, because I thought we are going to end the eye check.

• 58:17Gemma Bath?

  Tell my listeners what my, what an end eye check means, for those that don't know.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  So the eye check is the, the act that is performed by this degenerate. Um, when they have sedated the woman, they lift up the eyelid and check to see whether she is sedated, and quite often they record it. Um, so that these men on these online platforms were doing hashtag eye check. And then they were performing the rape. And that, again, I learned something in that moment. I thought, oh my God, what did he do to make sure I was sedated? Like, what did he do? Did he poke me in the ribs? Did he do the eye check? So I thought, no, I'm not having this. Every time these men are going to type in eye check, end eye check is going to come up. And I was designing a website and doing everything just in my bedroom.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  And that's when, after a good couple of weeks, I contacted Amanda. And then Amanda said, I'm not sure if I can join. Because the eye check, the word eye check for me is really triggering. And I thought, God, yeah, you're right, it probably is. And that's what I mean, we're, we're meeting survivors on, on so many different levels. It's good to have that person to, so she joined, um, uh, the campaign and she's, oh, she's doing fantastic. But we're learning

• 59:34Speaker 01

  through talking that we've had those same crazy thoughts. Or that I'll say, oh, this happened to me. And she said, oh my God, I didn't realise that happened to you too. Did that happen to you? And, and that's this survivor network that we're building up of women that have experienced drug facilitated rape, where we can find common ground. Um, because I, I can't look back on, like Gisele Pellicho can, at a wonderful marriage. I just look back and lies, it's just lies for me. Um, and therefore we'll meet women that can look back at their wonderful marriage and have that memory, and that's great. And then I'll be able to relate to the women that look back and, and think, my God, I've been lied to. This isn't love. It's good to have someone.

• 1:00:17Gemma Bath?

  So what are the goals? What are you trying to do with the End Check campaign?

• 1:00:20Speaker 01

  With the End Eye Check campaign, there's lots of things. Uh, one of them is, oh, firstly, we're trying to track statistics for drug facilitated rape. So if you go into your doctor and you record a rape, or you go to the police and you record rape, it gets put as rape, or maybe familial rape. So it would be classed in the same bracket as if you were sexually assaulted by your father or your uncle or your brother. I am requesting that all agencies record drug facilitated rape as a separate statistic. So let's say I get this pushed through, because this is my new thing. Let's say I get this pushed through to twenty twenty seven.

• 1:01:03Speaker 01

  We are going to start collecting data of women that have recorded that they've experienced drug facilitated rape. So in five years' time, we can look at the growth. Right now, we can't look at the growth because no one, there's no source of statistics. So the campaign is building a statistic database and now working with agencies that are saying they are happy, they're going to happily start recording this as a separate violation. Want to implement cracking down on online platforms um and have, you know, well, I believe that sleep content and CNC content, strangulation content, it just should be banned. It should be banned from being made, should be banned from being uploaded.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  Some Wally tried to upload sleep content, their IP address, even if it's blocked or whatever it is, gets sent straight to the police, rather than the victims having to try and find themselves years later.

• 1:01:58Speaker 01

  That's, that's something. I'm looking at an education programme for women so that we know that this is something that we can encounter, bit like Ask Angela on the back of a toilet door. You know, drug facilitative rape is something that I never even knew that I need to consider as a possibility. And also the education programme, reaching mandatory reporters, that when we have women coming in with various different symptoms, or in my case, actually saying, this is what has happened. They put the adequate safeguarding and mandatory reporting in because currently that isn't being done. And then to reach out, reach out to men, like, how are they going down this rabbit hole? I mean, I don't like calling them men because these people aren't men. That is not what a man is. They are a degenerate. But how do we get from that to this?

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  So there's quite a few things that um plugging a way out with the campaign at the moment, but it's good. Good. And building the network. So far, in a number of months, there is fifty five different countries worth of engagement. And twenty two separate countries of survivors. So this is why I say, you know, it's, it's like the clip of the movie is happening in a town near you. It literally is. And I think as a society, we have to wake up. We, we don't want to, I know it sounds a cliche, we've got to wake up. We have to open our eyes that this is something that is happening. We check how our friends get home, but we don't check how our friends slept that night.

• 1:03:28Speaker 01

  And the sad thing is, is that she probably doesn't know either. So when I think, I don't know if right now I could list twenty two countries off the top of my head, just random. There was that many, twenty two different countries of survivors. So I'm asking them to continue to reach out. We're working diligently for them. But that sets the tone of how, how prevalent this crime is. And I think we're just scratching the iceberg.

• 1:03:55Gemma Bath?

  Have you heard from many from Australia?

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um. The End I Check campaign is opening up in Australia soon. Unfortunately or unfortunately, so Canada, Australia, Mexico, um and America. Um. I think Canada is already pretty much up and running, but the prevalence in Australia is very high.

• 1:04:17Gemma Bath?

  Yeah, well, that's devastating.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  It is. But, you know, I think while we keep thinking this is a crime that happens to somebody else, we're not going to fix it. While we keep thinking that this crime discriminates. It doesn't discriminate in both ways. It doesn't discriminate by the perpetrator. We think that somebody like this, you know, is somebody that, you know, um is not of good standing. This crime by the perpetrator, we've got perpetrators that are highly educated, various different social networks, various different ages, um various different ethnicities. It does not discriminate. Uh. So we're not looking for it. And it certainly doesn't discriminate by the victim. If you think that you've got a good job and live in a good area, it's not going to happen to you, you're wrong. It does not discriminate.

• 1:05:04Speaker 01

  So we have got victims of different ages, different ethnicities, different parts of the world, different social standards. I think we just have to accept that while there is a body and there is a no time, this is a possibility and that is it.

• 1:05:18Gemma Bath?

  At least we're actually talking about it nowadays.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:05:22Gemma Bath?

  I can feel your passion is creating this community of incredible survivors. Is it helping you? Is it healing you? Is it giving you people to bounce off?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  I mean, it's a double edged sword. Every new woman that I speak with is just, it's heartbreaking. Um. But then on the plus side, i- if I just, I get up every day and I think if I can just help one more, if I can just help one more. There are women that have stripped their social media page and dedicated it to End I Check. They are now End I Check Scotland, End I Check Wales. I think, wow, like, that is brilliant. Um. And, and I'm pleased to be able to help facilitate a platform for these women to, to heal. There is a level of healing, but I think first comes understanding. And I'm still understanding what happened to me daily.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  Uh. I did a, a, a, a interview yesterday and I suddenly realised something else about myself and my experience that I either hadn't processed or I haven't allowed myself to process. So I think if other women, you know, anonymously or otherwise, as they pressure to weigh their anonymity, have a space to be able to do that where they're, you know, judgment free, then that's great.

• 1:06:42Gemma Bath?

  Campaigning aside, what does the future look like for you and your family? Do you see love in the future, happiness in the future? What are you looking forward to?

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  I think I don't, I don't rule anything out. I, I'm not going to let this person make me feel bitter and rob me of my future. He robbed me of my perception of the past. So I'm of the mindset of grabbing joy whenever I can. My dad was an incredible, incredible man and we recently lost him. In fact, he passed away four days after CNN aired, um which is just awful. Um. But I think that he was an example, a shining example of what a man is. And I know that there are men out there that are like that.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  And we need them, right? We need them to stand up, come alongside the campaign, change the narrative, educate their children. You know, we need that. So I don't think that me sitting here thinking, all men are like it. I'm never, you know, doing anything is going to help me because he's, he's keeping me in prison still. He's controlling me from prison if I stop finding joy, if I stop making memories. So my coping mechanism of healing is to go out and live my life and make memories with my family. That is, that's the biggest thing that has got me through. So I, I find joy, whether it's in a cup of coffee, in the garden, or a walk with my mum, whatever it is. I, I, I think that's one thing that I can do that you can't.

• 1:08:24Gemma Bath?

  You're incredible, Zoe. Thank you so much for joining us and thank you for sharing your story.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate that. And please let me know if I can, you know, help with anything in the future, or if you have any women that have come forward after watching this. Please, you know, send them my information. Be more than, more than happy to help.

• 1:08:45Gemma Bath?

  Thank you to Zoe for sharing her story with us. You can find a link to support the hashtag End I Check campaign in our show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It really helps others find the show. Thanks so much for listening. I'll be back next week with another True Crime Conversation.