Simon Cowell - ‘I often think: what gives me the right to judge people?’

Simon Cowell has built an entertainment empire on his ability to say exactly what he thinks and an uncanny ability to judge the public mood. From launching Pop Idol in 2001, The X Factor in 2004 and the cultural behemoth Britain’s Got Talent in 2007, he has been at the helm of primetime around the world for over a quarter of a century. His TV shows and Syco record label have shaped the careers of everyone from One Direction to Little Mix, Susan Boyle and Leona Lewis. But his success hasn’t come without its struggles. For the first time, Cowell opens up about his biggest failures and regrets - an extraordinary thing to hear from one of the most successful men on the planet. We chat about fame, bankruptcy, loss, being ‘obnoxious’ and whether he has any regrets. Plus: what breaking his back and a near-death experience taught him and why he thinks we needs another referendum on Brexit. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:46 Early Life and Career 06:52 The Impact of a Life-Altering Accident 18:19 Facing Bankruptcy and Lessons Learned 22:16 The Influence of Simon's Parents 28:29 Reflections on Wealth and Success 29:37 Reflecting on Wealth and Happiness 30:27 The Impact of COVID-19 on Production 31:58 The Birth of Britain's Got Talent 33:29 The Struggles and Success of BGT 38:20 Understanding Fame and Its Challenges 40:35 The Formation of One Direction 47:20 Lessons from Professional Failures 56:10 Final Thoughts and Advice for Success Britain’s Got Talent is currently airing on ITV, and America’s Got Talent celebrates its 20th year this summer on NBC. ‘The biggest risk is being safe’ - Elizabeth and Simon answer YOUR questions in our subscriber series, Failing with Friends. Join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com 🌎 Get an exclusive 15% discount on your first Saily data plans! Use code [howtofail] at checkout. Download Saily app or go to to https://saily.com/howtofail ⛵ Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Mix Engineer: Josh Gibbs Producer: Hannah Talbot Executive Producer: Carly Maile How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  Hello there. Did you know that you can hear all of the things that my guests might have failed to divulge in the main episode by joining us in our subscriber community, Failing with Friends? It's where you will hear really riveting pieces of information like Olivia Atwood's dream date location, or Miranda Hart's advice on performing bodily functions in front of your partner. Just follow the link in the podcast notes and we will see you there.

• 0:37Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How to Fail. Now, this podcast was born out of my own failures in life, and I firmly believe that we measure success in the lessons we've learned along the way, rather than the things that always go to plan. So every week, I ask a new guest about three times they failed, and what, if anything, they've learned along the way.

• 0:58Speaker 01

  It was like publicly being humiliated. But I remember someone shouting at you wanker. And I went, actually, you're right, I am a wanker. Would you judge us having sex? I'm like, are you winding me up? They went, no, we'll pay you. How much?

• 1:18Elizabeth Day?

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• 2:00Elizabeth Day?

  Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first

• 2:15Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today remembers proffering his first critical judgement at the age of four, when he told his mother that her white pillbox hat made her look like a poodle.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Like a poodle.

• 2:27Elizabeth Day?

  Since then, Simon Cowell has built a multi-million pound entertainment empire on his ability to say exactly what he thinks, and an uncanny capacity to judge the public mood. It was Cowell who devised a plethora of wildly successful TV talent show formats that would transform the face of popular culture. From launching Pop Idol in 2001, The X Factor in 2004, and the cultural beer moth Britain's Got Talent in 2007, he's been at the helm of primetime around the world for over a quarter of a century. As a judge, Cowell became infamous for his bluntness. His trademark phrase, "I don't mean to be rude, but..." later provided the title for

• 3:11Elizabeth Day?

  his autobiography. His TV shows and Psycho record label have shaped the careers of everyone from One Direction to Little Mix, Susan Boyle and Leona Lewis. It's quite the journey for a boy who, growing up in Elstree, Hertfordshire, hated school so much, he started smoking and drinking at the age of eight, before leaving full-time education as soon as he could at 16. It was his mother, Julie, who filled out a form for him to work in the mailroom at EMI Records. Cowell got the job, and from there, worked his way up. "I'm always striving for something else," he said in his 2006 Desert Island Discs interview. "I don't relax. I've tried to and I can't.

• 3:55Elizabeth Day?

  I'm very, very competitive. I like winning." Simon Cowell, welcome to How To Fail.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  That was a good intro, by the way.

• 4:04Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you.

• 4:05Speaker 01

  I can actually remember everything, as you said it, from the poodle, to buying number six cigarettes at the age of eight. Going down, when my mum and dad had a party and my brother Nicholas and me, we would go down in the morning and take all the butts out of the ashtrays. If it was like half a cigarette, it was like bingo.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  And hating school.

• 4:33Elizabeth Day?

  Well, I know I ended, it's a bit of a con on my part with the 2006 quote about how competitive you are and how you like winning and how you find it hard to relax. You were 46 then, when you charmed the pants off Sue Lawley. You're 65 now, has that changed?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  Do you know, on that day, I had the worst migraine ever. And it was something I really wanted to do, Desert Island Discs. And I remember thinking, God, I've got the worst migraine. I shouldn't be doing this. So what should have been a great experience, actually was terrible. So I want to do it again. And I would change the songs.

• 5:09Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:10Elizabeth Day?

  Because your luxury was a mirror.

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:13Elizabeth Day?

  Do you remember that?

• 5:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 5:15Elizabeth Day?

  He said, I quote, I'd miss me.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  That might have changed now, yeah. But yeah, I mean, I'm still, I think I'm still pretty much the same. I'm still competitive now. But as you know, we were saying earlier on, I kind of like learnt, I think, how to work better.

• 5:38Elizabeth Day?

  Often when people are competitive, it's because they're trying to prove something to someone.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:43Elizabeth Day?

  Does that resonate with you?

• 5:44Speaker 01

  It does, particularly, I think because, you know, my job, it's so public. And I often think, what gives me the right to judge people? If I'm not signing artists, for instance, at the moment. So I did something recently where I thought, okay, I'm gonna do something to create a band very publicly, which is going to come out in a few months' time. And to see whether I can do it again or not. Partly, I think to prove to myself. I just had this kind of like nagging thing in the back of my mind going, you know, what was the happiest time in my life? And it's always been working with bands. I've loved that energy when you find that first person, second person,

• 6:30Speaker 01

  to their first record or their first tour. It is, it's so hard to articulate that excitement. And I thought, well, maybe.

• 6:42Speaker 01

  There isn't kind of a band like One Direction or Little Mix for so many years. Why not do it again? And honestly, it was one of the scariest things I've ever done. But I had to do it.

• 6:55Elizabeth Day?

  Have you found the band?

• 6:57Speaker 01

  I think I have. I don't want to give it away.

• 6:59Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  I actually said to her, I'm not going to talk about it. And this is the first thing I'm talking about.

• 7:04Elizabeth Day?

  Was there a fear at one point that you had lost your edge? Because if I look at Simon Cowell now that I see on my TV screen, as opposed to Simon Cowell then on my TV screen, it does seem as though you've softened and mellowed and you've become a father.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:21Elizabeth Day?

  And we went through the pandemic and you had a sort of life altering accident in 2020.

• 7:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:26Elizabeth Day?

  All of those things, do you think they have softened you? And did that worry you?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah. There was a moment, I mean, going back to that accident because, you know, it was bad. I mean, I had this, it wasn't really a bike, a bicycle. It was basically an electric motorbike. So powerful, you just couldn't keep the front wheel down. So I shipped it in from England, couldn't wait to ride it. And I was in the driveway and my son was there. And I pulled the throttle and this, it did the biggest wheelie. And it threw me like seven, eight feet in the air and I landed like that on my back. And the second I landed, I went, shit, I know I broke my back.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  Cause I could feel it. And the first thing I did was, can I move my hands? Yes. Can I move my feet? Yeah. Okay. That's not too bad. And then I was in the ambulance and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then I woke up from surgery and I thought, actually, it's not too bad. And the guy goes, you've got pain blockers in you. In three or four days' time, it's going to wear off. And in three or four days' time, yeah, it wore off. And at that moment, I thought, wow. This is, this is really, really bad and I could have died. And it was a kind of a wake up moment, which is, I am crazy. Um, but you know, it, I, it kind of happened for a reason. Because I thought I was fit.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  And then when I had to do all the kind of like the physio afterwards, just walking. Um, cause they make you walk very quickly. Um, but for three months, I, I pretty much couldn't move. And then I started to walk a lot. And then I realized, my God, I really, really am in a bad place or was in a bad place. I was just getting up, walking to my telephone. I, I would stay on the phone for 10 hours and that was basically my life, seven days a week. So as bad as it was, I, I do believe it happened for a reason. Because I'm now fitter.

• 9:36Speaker 01

  I'm still a bit crazy on my bikes, but it, it really does make you realise. Life is really precious and it, just like that, could have gone.

• 9:47Elizabeth Day?

  Did you have a near death experience where you came face to face with what might be on the other side? Was it that kind of experience?

• 9:54Speaker 01

  Well, you know, in America, uh, I used to where it happened, you know, it took quite a long time from getting in the ambulance, getting to the hospital. Luckily I had a great surgeon and I had so much pain medication at that point. I was kind of out of it. And then he said, you know, we, we had to do the X rays and he showed me the X ray. I'm like, God, he said, look, I'm not going to lie, Simon. Number one, I don't know if I can fix this. And which means you, you probably won't walk. And secondly, the operation's going to take maybe 11 hours. So.

• 10:33Speaker 01

  Stated the obvious, it could go wrong. And at that moment, I'm like, oh gosh. And all I kept thinking about was, you know, my family and everything. And in that moment, you kind of realise, you know, the most important thing is your health. And don't do stupid, stupid things. And then thankfully, you know, it all worked out fine. My back's fine now. I'm fitter than I was five years ago. All I was worried about was how do I explain it to my son, who was really tiny at the time? He didn't really understand. Uh, because, you know, inside me, I've got this metal rod and I've got these screws and I, and I'm just lying there. And, and I said, Eric, have you watched that movie Iron Man?

• 11:18Speaker 01

  He went, yeah. I said, well, that's sort of why I am now. I'm made of iron. And he kind of got it from that point. And once I knew he understood, I was, I was fine with it at that point.

• 11:28Elizabeth Day?

  How old was Eric then?

• 11:29Speaker 01

  He would have been, let me think, so two thousand and five, twenty, so he would have six.

• 11:35Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, five, six, yeah.

• 11:37Elizabeth Day?

  You are renowned for your put downs and the occasional savagery of your responses, particularly in the early seasons of Pop Idol and X Factor. Do you regret any of them?

• 11:51Speaker 01

  Not really. I was approached a lot when I was an A and R person. You know, I was just running a record label. And it was at the time where, you know, people who weren't well known, they, um, they were doing like fly on the wall documentaries. And I kept getting all these offers to be on TV. And I'm just like, this is the last thing I want to do. However, uh, I turned down being a judge on Pop Stars. I knew I'd made a mistake because by turning down being on the show, I didn't get to sign the winning act.

• 12:21Elizabeth Day?

  Hear say?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they were terrible, but I knew they were going to sell a lot of records. And I just thought, we've just got to get on this. So we kind of just, I just decided if we're going to do it.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  The only person I can really trust is myself. And if I'm gonna do this, I'm not gonna lie. Uh, because I know, you know, how difficult it is to break an artist. And because of my own personal experiences when I was, you know, starting off. And it was tough, really, really difficult when I first started. Um, what made me better were the people who were honest with me. And they were, I wouldn't say brutal, but I mean, it was kind of like, uh, would you work with this artist? No. Do you think this records are hit? No. Will you produce this artist? Never. And you have to kind of just work it out. They weren't being rude to be rude. They were just being, you know, honest.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  And I had to kind of understand, yeah, in a relatively short period of time. I've got to get the right artist with the right song, with the right idea and learn from it. So therefore, when I was in a position to kind of do the same thing, I thought, well, if I tell someone who can't sing, they can sing, I'm just lying and I just couldn't do it. Uh, I do think, looking back, they did find a lot of bad singers. Because they was terrible, some of them. And I, and I genuinely, all I was thinking about was if we don't find someone who can sell records in the first year, I'm toast. This is gonna be really embarrassing. And even, you know, my bosses at the time, they were saying, what are you thinking, Simon?

• 14:02Speaker 01

  I'm like, well, I think if this works, I think we can sell a lot of records. Think about it. Like, you're doing really well, Simon. You know, you're signing a lot of artists anyway. You can, this, this is, uh, you know, very public, don't do it. And I'm like, well, I'm gonna give it one good, one go. So all I kept thinking of that first year was, where's the start? And then there was that one audition, Gareth Gates, he just came in. I, cause I actually have a bit of a stutter as well. People don't know that.

• 14:37Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are times where I just can't get the words out for whatever reason. Sometimes when I'm stressed, um, and I kind of related to that. So this guy, and he was trying to talk and he just looked so good. And I thought, wow, he looks like a star, this boy. And he couldn't talk. And it took about 10 minutes for him to eventually sing. And then when he sang, he was like a completely different person. And then there was a press launch for the show and I saw that clip. And in that moment, I went, this is gonna work.

• 15:12Elizabeth Day?

  Before we get on to your failures, do you have a favorite put down from, from the early era of Simon Cowell?

• 15:18Speaker 01

  I can't remember. I mean, genuinely, I can't even watch this stuff back now. I mean, I don't watch. The only time I watch my shows is before they go out. So I get like a rough cut on the show. So I kind of look at it as, is this working? Is it the right act? Whatever, whatever, whatever. Once it's gone out, I never look at it again. Like, I don't have any gold discs in, in my, in my houses or what, a house, sorry.

• 15:45Elizabeth Day?

  What do people ask you to say to them when they meet you in the street? Or do they just ask for selfies?

• 15:51Speaker 01

  People used to ask me to be rude to them. I mean, literally, they would come up and say, you know, particularly in America, would you be rude to me? And I'm like, no. And then one time, it's a true story. Um, I was in a restaurant and this guy comes up to me and he said, uh, you know, I love your show. Thank you very much. Uh, would you, would you take a picture? Sure. This is my wife. Nice to meet you. Would you judge us having sex? I'm like, are you winding me up? They went, no, we'll pay you. I thought, how much? And it actually was a lot of money. I thought, do I? No, I just can't do it.

• 16:30Elizabeth Day?

  It was a hundred and fifty grand.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  It was a hundred and fifty grand, yeah.

• 16:32Elizabeth Day?

  We found your moral scruple. That's what you said though to.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 16:37Elizabeth Day?

  This is kind of a sexual kink.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Well, it was just so bizarre. That's something I really have enjoyed though, weirdly, is that I am very shy. Like, I can't go to a pre-party. It's my worst thing in the world, making small talk with people I don't know. If we have a common subject, I'm pretty good. But years ago, if I had to go to a party, particularly if to stand up with a drink, with horrible food, and just talk to people you don't know, it's torture. So, once I was known by people, it was kind of good because.

• 17:17Speaker 01

  It broke the ice with people you meet. So instantly, they know you. You you're talking about something I like, you know, which is the shows or the artists or whatever. So it kind of helped me with my shyness.

• 17:32Elizabeth Day?

  That's fascinating.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but still now Lauren is brilliant in these positions.

• 17:38Elizabeth Day?

  This is your fiance.

• 17:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm hopeless. So Joan Collins had a birthday party and I'm like, I get out of it. And I said to Lauren, okay, I'll go, but we have to time it. So because there'll be a horrible, like I said, stand up pre-drinks. I can't do that. So at the same time, you know, Joan is a diva. And if you're late, she'll kill me. So I'm trying to balance everything. So I just, okay, fine. I think we've timed it. Well, we didn't. For 45 minutes, I had to talk to people and I was dying inside. I was so, I was so stressed

• 18:18Speaker 01

  by the time I got to the table. I left after about 30 minutes because I just can't do with it.

• 18:25Elizabeth Day?

  Draining.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Draining.

• 18:26Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 18:29Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's exposure and response prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable. So you can live more of the life you want to

• 19:14Elizabeth Day?

  live. If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15 minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Let's get on to your failures.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:28Elizabeth Day?

  Because that.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  That is one of them, by the way.

• 19:30Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm socially inept.

• 19:32Elizabeth Day?

  I want to come back to that, actually, because I think it's so interesting hearing about someone so famous and how that has helped counteract that self stated ineptitude. But before we do that.

• 19:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:45Elizabeth Day?

  Your first failure. Is bankruptcy.

• 19:48Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 19:48Elizabeth Day?

  So this was when in your late twenties, the company that owned your record label went bankrupt. Is that right?

• 19:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I had started a label

• 20:01Speaker 01

  with about four or five thousand pounds and someone had backed me financially. And then the guy who backed me was part, then his company was bought by another company or something, I can't remember. And that company went bust. Now, when it was public, I think we were buying shares or I I borrowed money. I was in debt. So um when the big company went bust, we all went bust. And then I was, I mean, literally bankrupt. I owed the bank about, I think, two hundred and fifty thousand pounds. My house, I think, when I sold it, I still owed about seventy grand on the mortgage.

• 20:45Speaker 01

  I had to just get rid of everything, house, cars, everything. And luckily, my parents were in in Lon- living in London. And I had to get from my my old house to their apartment. And I had just about five pounds. And I kind of worked out, will the five pounds get me, you know, in a cab to my mum and dad's? And that was it. I mean, that was the moment I thought, Christ almighty, I really am broke.

• 21:12Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 21:13Speaker 01

  Um. But they were brilliant. They were they were kind of like, it happens. You know, you've learnt a lesson. And I found then a man, a bank manager who lent me some money to pay back the other bank over time. So I just, in a weird way, kind of got lucky with it.

• 21:31Elizabeth Day?

  When I've heard you speak about this before, you've been asked whether you felt humiliated and you said no, that actually, in a way, it was good for the balloon to be punctured.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:41Elizabeth Day?

  Tell me a bit more about that.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Well, it was the it was the eighties, so it was kind of, everything was about porches. Flashy, you know, it was very obnoxious and I was very obnoxious, I think. Um, I'd had a big hit record.

• 21:56Elizabeth Day?

  Robson and Jerome.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  No, this was Sunita, actually, was my first artist and, you know, um. The record sold about a million copies. So, you know, I was making, you know, for someone in their early twenties, a lot of money, but it was, it was really an illusion because it wasn't my company. Um, I didn't really make much of the profits. I had lots of credit cards and just, I think I just believed because it was really my, my first attempt at breaking an artist that was going to last forever and it didn't. And then, yeah, when it, when it happened, I didn't miss the house, I definitely didn't miss the Porsche. I hated that Porsche, looking back. And, and my mum and dad were amazing, you know, they didn't think

• 22:43Speaker 01

  that I'd failed because I'd succeeded but failed at the same time.

• 22:46Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  I had success, but I just didn't have any money. No one kind of like stopped being my friend. I bought a TR six for about six and a half grand, which I loved.

• 22:57Elizabeth Day?

  It's like a car.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, just loved it. I remember seeing it in a showroom, bought it. It always went wrong, but I just loved it because I could afford it. And I loved that car more than the Porsche because it was kind of, everything became real at that point.

• 23:10Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 23:10Speaker 01

  And I really learnt a lesson about, don't borrow money. Just don't, you know, just live with what you have and just be happy with that.

• 23:20Elizabeth Day?

  How obnoxious were you?

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Well, I do remember one time I was driving in my Porsche, I had long hair. The top was down and I passed this pub and I remember someone shouting at, you wanker. And I went, actually, you're right, I am a wanker. And I put the top up. So I probably was, yeah.

• 23:41Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm. And your parents, Eric and Julie, were clearly a formative and profoundly important influence on you. Can you tell me a bit about them and who they were?

• 23:53Speaker 01

  Well, they were just amazing people. I mean, honestly, genuinely, just kind people as well. I remember.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  My dad, I suppose he would be middle class, you know, he he did. When he died, he didn't have any money. However, we did grow up in nice houses. We were always moving. I remember that. He was very generous. Um. He worked for a company EMI, so he retired at sixty five. And once he retired, he never had another phone call. And I remember seeing that and it was, that was really hard to see him because he was still really smart. But because he was part of, you know, a big company, it was over. And that was kind of depressing. Um. My mum was like super glam. She reminded me of Elizabeth Taylor.

• 24:47Elizabeth Day?

  Who you met when you were a child, didn't you?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because our next door neighbours, I think, ran one of the big studios. So they were always having these flashy parties and we'd always be looking over the the fence. I think that was probably, looking back, looking at that party. It was weird because I didn't want to be the actor or the actress. I wanted to be the person who had the party, even at that really young age.

• 25:12Elizabeth Day?

  So your mother was like Elizabeth Taylor. Sorry, I interrupted.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was very glam. Um. But again, she was very down to earth. I mean, the last thing they were was snobs. They just weren't. Um. They were, I again, very grounded. My mum didn't come for money. My dad didn't come for money. They didn't inherit anything, everything. My dad built up, he built up himself. Um. My mum was incredibly hardworking. She was a dancer. But she, you know, just ran the house. I mean, I was a total brat when I was a kid. I mean, really bad. Thank God Eric isn't like that. And I was always in trouble. I mean, uh, really, really in a lot of trouble. And they just.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Taught me, I don't know, the right values, I think, about respect, kindness. And importantly, I think particularly for my mum is, you know, have fun in life.

• 26:09Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  You know, she always had fun, a lot of fun.

• 26:12Elizabeth Day?

  You must miss them.

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Oh, God, yeah. I mean, when I lost, it was hard when I lost my dad. I mean, it was really, really hard because I sort of made myself believe that no one was ever gonna die, genuinely. Cause I never had that moment, cause I didn't know my grandparents. So when my, I had that call and my dad had passed away, I was like, I used. It's never, I just, I couldn't get my head around it. And even then, I had to take a month off work. I just couldn't talk to anyone. It was really hard. I remember, you know, getting off this plane and seeing my mum. And then realising at that point, I'm sort of now the parent. I've got to look after my mum now. And that's what I promised her, you know, oh, God, um.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  You know, saying to her, look, I'm always gonna be here for you. Because, you know, my dad's not here anymore. And then when, you know, she passed away, that was. For me, it was like my world had ended at that point. I was, you know, still doing TV shows. I had made some money and at that point it was like, God, none of it. Well, I mean, what's it for? Genuinely, I was broken, absolutely broken. Um, and I still had to be on camera and that was just torture.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And it took me a long, long time. And fortunately, thank God. Even though the circumstances weren't perfect. Uh, Eric was sort of starting to arrive. So my mum had met Eric, even though she had dementia at that point. She, you know, she always wanted me to be a dad.

• 27:58Elizabeth Day?

  Um.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And she adored him, just adored him. Lauren and Eric, you know, at that point, they kind of saved me really. Because I didn't realise that you could ever have that love for another human being. You have your parents. It just is that, but it's even bigger. I mean, it's just indescribable. From the moment I saw his scan, I was. Sessed, you know, and I guess, looking back, that's how they, that's how I got away with so much because they loved me in the same way as I love Eric and I kind of get that now,

• 28:37Speaker 01

  which is, you know, it's everything. And it kind of, yeah, reset me and I thought, okay, now I have a purpose. Now everything starts to make sense. And yes, it's great to have success and this and that. However, everything, I think, if I do believe in destiny and sliding doors and everything, everything was sort of meant to happen. Thank God, you know?

• 29:03Elizabeth Day?

  So beautifully put. And maybe if you did does Ireland Discs again, now you take a photo of Eric as your luxury.

• 29:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 29:10Elizabeth Day?

  Do you see your parents in Eric?

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do, a lot. I do. Um, he's, um, he has absolutely my mum and dad in him. He has, um, my mum's sense of humour, because he's very funny, he really makes me laugh. And he has this incredible kindness. And that's what I was trying to teach Eric from a very early age, which is, please, thank you. Like my mum said, manners make us the man. I told him that. And the first time he looked at me, he's like, what? And then he got it quite quickly. Understanding people work with us, not for us, all that kind of stuff, you know? Everything they taught me, I can now teach him, which is fantastic.

• 29:54Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 29:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:55Elizabeth Day?

  We started off talking about bankruptcy and it's quite some turnaround. Someone who had to pay back two hundred and fifty grand and get a loan from the bank to pay off his bankruptcy, your reputed worth is now around five hundred million pounds.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Oh God, it's not that. I'm not even close to that. I'm being serious. I'm not. I made, I'm not, I'm not gonna lie, I made a bit of money, yes, but not that much, no.

• 30:18Elizabeth Day?

  Do you think you're rich?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  Well, probably yes. I've definitely got enough. I don't need any more. I don't yearn for what I thought I wanted a few years ago. Because, you know, when I was a kid, I had no idea of anything like yachts and the Caribbean or, you know, private planes. I swear to God, I had no idea. So when the first time in my, I think, I guess. Early forties it must have been, I sort of came across this world and saw it. I'm like, what? That is your own boat? It was like a, like a cruise ship. So there was a point, I'm not gonna lie, where I thought, maybe I haven't done as well as I thought. Maybe

• 31:05Speaker 01

  that's what I want. And I did start to kind of mix with some of those people for a couple of years. I'm gonna be honest with you, I hated it. I didn't like the people. I thought they were obnoxious. I thought they were snobby. I think a lot of those people thought they were better than other people because they had money, which is ridiculous when you think about it. So it was kind of, again, a kind of a good thing that it happened because I remember saying to Lauren, do you, do we know, actually know anyone who's rich? I mean, super rich and happy? She went, no. I went, nor me. So we're fine. We're doing all right, but we don't need more.

• 31:47Elizabeth Day?

  Do you remember a point when you felt, I no longer need to worry about money?

• 31:53Speaker 01

  I always worry about money, uh, because of, I think, you have to, uh, in a way. You think about Covid as an example. No one could have predicted Covid. I remember reading it for the first time on a website. And I don't read a lot of stuff on social media, but I'd heard about it. So I was curious. And the second day, the story got bigger to a point where I actually phoned one of my partner and I said, I don't like the look of this. I have a horrible feeling it's gonna be like that movie, Contagion. And I think we need to get all of our shows into production around the world quicker this

• 32:33Speaker 01

  year. And, and we did. And it, when it happened, uh, it was, I mean, obviously worse than I could have imagined. But I mean, when you think about that, the wars and everything else, the instability, what is safe? I mean, was it gold, cash, stock? I don't think it is safe any longer. I guess your house. Live in a nice house.

• 32:59Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Someone did actually say to me once, thank God, live in your money. And it was really good advice. I enjoy it and be happy with it, but understand that, you know, the world is precarious.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  So the answer is no.

• 33:19Elizabeth Day?

  You still worry about money.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  I do, yeah.

• 33:20Elizabeth Day?

  That's kind of an amazing thing to hear.

• 33:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 33:24Elizabeth Day?

  Your second failure is the struggle and initial failure that you had getting Britain's Got Talent commissioned.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:32Elizabeth Day?

  Which is a story I did not know about. So how did you come up with the idea?

• 33:39Speaker 01

  I was living in an apartment, watching a rival show, watching a singer literally murder this song. I think, wow, I can't watch any more of these shows. And I actually thought, I actually rather watch a dog act. I don't know why it came into my mind.

• 33:57Elizabeth Day?

  You do love a dog act.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  I love dogs. I just thought, dogs, variety, that would be fun. Why don't we just make like a a proper, proper talent show? I just, in that moment, thank God, because of that girl singing that song, it just made me think, oh, you know what? Singing is still important, but why not just open it up? Because YouTube had just started to kind of really happen. And there were so many funny things on YouTube. I thought, actually, this could be brilliant. So I had it in my head, what it would look like, but no one else did, literally, no one else got it. So I had to force ITV. Now, to be fair, ITV Now are brilliant partners.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  And they really, I'm not just saying that, but they really have been amazing. Then, not so much, because I I I said, look, please, please, I really want to make this show. And eventually, we made a pilot, and it was dreadful, to be fair. It was so bad, there was only about seven minutes of it, which was actually watchable. It was terrible. But the seven minutes we shot was really funny. And I got a call from NBC. In America and they said, what's the show? And by the way, then ITV, because the pilot was so bad, it was dead. So there was no Britain's Got Talent. So the show is dead. So then I get a call, NBC, what's the show like? Amazing.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Can we come over? I said, yeah, I'll show you a highlight reel. I didn't tell them the truth. Um. So I just showed them the seven minutes. They went, oh, my God, it's amazing. Can we buy it? Literally in my house. No one ever says that. Yeah. So we sold it. So the show was a hit. Amazing. I didn't think it was gonna do that well, but it did. And then I was able to persuade ITV to make Britain's Got Talent. So we got everything agreed and then three or four days before we were due to shoot, I get a phone call. Uh, a guy called Simon and he said, I need to see you. And I thought, that's bad news. And he came over and he said, we're, we're putting the show. I said, why?

• 36:08Speaker 01

  He said, it's not gonna be a hit. I said, how do you know? He said, I'm just telling you, I'm, I'm saving your career. I'm saving Anton Dex's career. We're not making the show. I said, well, we are. We, because I've got a hundred and fifty people in, I think it was Birmingham, ready to shoot in three days' time. Well, we're putting the plug. I said, I'll tell you what, give me a day. And I was thinking, Christ, we've paid for this ourselves. We can't stop. I can't tell anyone. So we went up and everyone's kind of super excited. I'm thinking, this is gonna last a day. And I actually saw someone from the network in the back of the theatre. I thought, they're not kidding around here. Luckily, the first audition was so funny and the audience got it.

• 36:53Speaker 01

  I texted the guy and I said, I really think this is gonna be a hit. Cut a long story short, they said yes begrudgingly, but they wanted the show off the air as quickly as possible, which is why we had the live shows stripped over a week.

• 37:07Elizabeth Day?

  Huh.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  And it's changed now. It's now weekly. But it was, it was just one of those things where I was just shocked because I even thought. From the, from the outset, this is just obvious, you know, in the climate that we were in. Music shows were just blowing up all over the world. Variety shows were something I used to watch as a kid and loved, so logically it's gonna work again. And there's so many great people out there. I mean, YouTube, you know, was just showing that. So I was just surprised that no one got it. However, they didn't. Now, they've been brilliant. The new people at ITV get it. NBC have been amazing. In fact, it's our twentieth anniversary this year.

• 37:48Elizabeth Day?

  Congratulations. It's amazing.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Uh, but I think it's kind of, weirdly, again, you kind of have to go through that bit of a struggle. Cause if everything was easy, it would be boring.

• 38:01Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  I mean, genuinely.

• 38:04Elizabeth Day?

  And so did you pay for that crew and production for those couple of days when ITV wasn't on board?

• 38:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 38:10Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 38:11Speaker 01

  If they had pulled the plug, I would have had to have said, okay, we're stopping production. I would have had to say to my partner, uh, we don't have a network. Maybe we're gonna sell it to somewhere else or whatever, whatever, whatever. I just didn't think in that moment. I just thought we have to keep going.

• 38:29Elizabeth Day?

  It's that child troublemaker part of you. And there's also, I do find it extraordinary. One of the things that you often say, and you're right, in the audition process, is that the public knows.

• 38:41Speaker 01

  Always.

• 38:42Elizabeth Day?

  And I wonder how you know that, because you also have this instinct for what the public wants. Where does that come from?

• 38:52Speaker 01

  I have commercial taste. Let's put it this way. I mean, I like everything that's popular, from baked beans to cornflakes to ITV, the BBC. I mean, I've just liked popular things. I'm not sort of into niche things. I like popular records, which is why I made pop music, which is just an abbreviation of popular. So I've never had to guess. I've only done something based on what I like. When I'm, say, on a live show and I'm in my dressing room and I've got a TV monitor and I can see the theatre or the studio, I still pinch myself because it's like, I can get on the phone and say to the director,

• 39:34Speaker 01

  can you make it green? And it will go green in that second. And it's like brilliant. It's, it's still for me that. I, I, I still really get a kick out of that.

• 39:46Elizabeth Day?

  Talk to me about fame. You mentioned earlier that being recognised makes it easier to navigate horrible small talk at parties. But it's been such an interesting period of time for fame. In the two decades since you've become really famous, fame itself has gone through lots of transmutations. And there is a dark side to it. And I just wonder how you feel about fame and also the fame that you give others.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  Well, and I had to explain this to Eric because, you know, as, you know, when we used to walk together and I was, I used to laugh because people would recognise me and of course, you know, he was a kid and he didn't get what was going on. And one day I had, he said, Dad, why does everyone laugh when they pass you? And I, well, my job is I'm well known. Let's put it that way. I'm on a TV show. That means people know me. So that's it. So that's how I look at it as not, I don't use the word fame. It's more well known. Lots of people know who I am. And that's kind of good, actually.

• 40:56Elizabeth Day?

  Was there ever a point where you were aware that the caricature of Cowell was overwhelming the actual Simon Cowell?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  I used to get frustrated where I had to keep reminding people of why we did this in the first place, which is what is more important, the show or the end result? For me, it's the end result. You want someone at the end of your show to do well. Because otherwise it would be pointless. I mean, seriously pointless. So there were certain producers along the way who I think thought probably the show was more important than what I cared about. And so there would be clashes. Now I think we're in a really good place. I think we found that place, which is we have some crazy acts come on, but they know they're crazy, but in a good way.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  So we're all in on it together. At the same time, producers will book someone who they think is brilliant and I don't. And so we just disagree.

• 41:59Elizabeth Day?

  Okay.

• 42:01Elizabeth Day?

  Talk to me about, say, a One Direction. Is it obvious from the moment one of those then-boys walks in that they have it?

• 42:13Speaker 01

  No. I think, looking back, I can remember every one of the boys' first auditions. And, I mean, Harry is an example. He was just very charming and he just charmed everyone just by talking about pies or something. And he had a good voice and he looked great. And he was just really a nice person. And that applies really to all of the boys, you know? I mean, Nile is an example. The person who was with me wanted to say no to him. I said, "Are you kidding?" I just say, "Yes, it's gonna change your life." We had a big argument off-camera about it. However, for whatever reason, maybe it was just nerves and experience,

• 42:54Speaker 01

  I, at that point, perhaps other people were doing better. And then at that moment, when they were on stage and I saw the boys, we were like, "Well, hang on a moment. We can't lose them. What do we do?" And then it was like, "Okay, what if we put them in a group?" So it sort of happened in about 20 minutes, honestly. And then, when I saw the five boys together, yes, I did think, "Wow, they look amazing." I mean, there's a kind of a great energy about them. And of course, I knew a lot about them because they'd auditioned and Zayn had gone missing at one point. So I knew him and his story. And I was in Spain when they came to audition for me the first time.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  And I remember seeing them walk around and as they walked towards me, I was literally praying, "Please, God, please, God, let them sing. Please, God, let them sing. I want them to be good." And they sang and I had my poker face on because I didn't want to give it away. And as they walked around the corner, I jumped out of my chair. I went, "They are fantastic. I just love them. I just, something about these boys, I love them. And I think they're gonna do great." And the deal was, I just said to them, "Do what you want. And I'll advise a few songs, but wear what you want, say what you want, just have fun." And that was it, honestly. And once, you know, we'd signed the deal, it was kind of you hand the baton over to them at that point. It's like, "Right, run with it. You've got, the doors are open.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  Everyone wants to write for you. Everyone wants to produce for you." The world kind of likes you already because of the show. So just take it, run with it and that's it. Um, and then at the same time in in my life, my career, I'm still doing the same thing where I'm encouraging people with talent to run with the ta- your talent. At the same time, knowing that becoming well known has, as you said, a a a dark side to it. And everybody wants that now. So it was that real. I'm a Libran, so I'm I'm tipping the scales all the time. What is the right thing to do?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  And unfortunately, um, whether it's in show business, whatever job you do, you're gonna have pressure. And I guess all I can take from this experience is is anyone I work with, you have to prepare them for. It's not just success. It's. Someone said this very wise, which is what are you afraid? What are you most afraid of? Are you afraid of not being successful or when you are successful retaining your success? And I thought that was a very smart way of putting it because when you

• 45:49Speaker 01

  find someone who's got talent, you can't hold on to them forever. That is a fact, unfortunately. You have to let them go.

• 45:55Elizabeth Day?

  I can hear that it weighs heavily on you.

• 45:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's just a very, it's a very hard thing. I mean, even with my son, you know, there's gonna be a point in his life where, you know, whatever he does in his life, there's gonna be pressure that comes with it. What I can say to him is, you know, just stay grounded, you know? There's always gonna be a temptation of certain things, you know, and and and always know you can come to me. And I guess that's probably the most important thing is anyone, I suppose now is saying to them, if you've got a any issues, talk to me. Of all the great things that have happened in my life, then there's those moments, like you said, my mum and dad, things like that, you know, it's just.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  Life is shit when it happens like that, you know?

• 46:45Elizabeth Day?

  And prompts a lot of soul searching.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:46Elizabeth Day?

  And I know, I I mentioned to you before we started recording that Lucy Spragan came on How to Fail. And obviously went through a horrendously traumatic time.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:55Elizabeth Day?

  Speaks so highly of you and how you were the first person to call and how much that meant to her. And I know you walked it down the aisle recently and you're very good friends. And so much work has been done on mental health of reality TV contestants in the time since these shows started.

• 47:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:13Elizabeth Day?

  And and I get the impression from you that it it's taken very seriously now. You take it very seriously.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think, you know, we've all been, we were all affected by it, you know, looking back, myself included, by the way, you know, I mean, I I went through my own dark times, you know, genuinely where particularly, like I said, after I lost my parents, you know, there was a moment where I just was so depressed and down. And, you know, nothing made you feel better. However, having said that, I would do it all over again. A hundred percent. I have no regrets, you know, changing my life at that moment, becoming well known. Even with some of the stuff that goes with it, I've just dealt with it. And I can't complain because you meet really nice people every day, genuinely.

• 48:03Speaker 01

  Everyone's really nice to you. In return, I try and be nice back to them. I've never said no ever to a selfie or a handshake or an autograph. And I always say to every person who I work with, don't ever complain about people asking for photographs or this or that or moan about privacy, because if you want privacy, be an accountant. If you want to be, you know, well known, that's what comes with it. The public are the people who pay your wages. So in return, you have to be nice to them. It's the simplest.

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• 49:34Speaker 01

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• 49:44Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure is the US launch of The X Factor.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 49:50Elizabeth Day?

  Why have you chosen this as a failure?

• 49:56Speaker 01

  That was a big one. That, I was obnoxious then. The show was doing great. And we were getting lots of calls about launching it in America.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  So instead of doing it the way we should have done, which is kind of like, let's just not tell anyone. Let's just put the show out and hopefully a few people like it and tell your friends they like it. We did the opposite. I made this really flashy promo. I stupidly, in a press interview, because someone said, you know, how will you know if it's a success or a failure? And I said, if it has less than 20 million viewers, it's a failure. And they picked up on that. And that was it. That was the story that ran. So I think it got somewhere like between 14 and 16 million people.

• 50:56Speaker 01

  And it was dead on arrival, basically. Simon said, if it gets us in 20 minutes, a failure, so it's a failure. So everyone's heads went down.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Look, the show did fine. Having said that, if I was doing it all over again, yes, I wouldn't have done it like that. I would have literally not done, told anyone really about it, not done much promo, put the show out in a, in a good time slot, hopefully have great people on it. And then surprise people, I guess. I think that would have been the cooler way of doing it.

• 51:31Elizabeth Day?

  Because around this time, I'm guessing social media was becoming so much more of a thing. And I wonder how much pressure that placed you under as well.

• 51:40Speaker 01

  Well, it was, I mean, look, we all hyped ourselves up, basically. I had over a hundred people working at the company at that point. Too many people, by the way. It was like, it was like a machine, you know? And I guess we thought we were bigger than everybody else. And in hindsight, we weren't. The voice came along, it was like being punched in the face because it was so good and I was so unhappy. Because it was such a brilliant idea and our show just, I don't know, it just, it wasn't great. And I felt it and it was probably,

• 52:17Speaker 01

  it was like publicly being humiliated because I'd kind of set it up to fail, really. And that's a shame. I wish I could have done it all over again.

• 52:28Elizabeth Day?

  It's almost like it was that moment again where you're in your Porsche and the roof was down and someone in the pub shouted, you're a wanker. Yeah.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. There was just a lot more people saying wanker at that point. And it was interesting because Jeremy Clarkson sort of did the same thing with Top Gear. Uh, when they, you know, launched whatever it was called, horrible title, by the way, that.

• 52:51Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, the Grand Tour, that one.

• 52:53Speaker 01

  Horrible name.

• 52:54Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 52:55Speaker 01

  Because I guess they couldn't. Remake Top Gear in the same way, let people discover it. And I think that's an important word, discovery, which is don't tell people what they're going to like, you know, obviously let people know it's it's gonna launch whatever, but not in the way that I did it because that was that wasn't great.

• 53:18Elizabeth Day?

  Do you actually think the public is always right?

• 53:20Speaker 01

  Yes, I actually do believe that.

• 53:22Elizabeth Day?

  Even if you disagree with what the public has chosen, and if we're talking global landscape, let's talk about the election of Trump or Brexit, which I know you were not in favour of. Do you still think the public is right because there's a lesson that we need to be taught?

• 53:37Speaker 01

  Well, look, I believe in democracy and, you know.

• 53:41Elizabeth Day?

  I've just always wanted to ask you this.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Well, I guess, you know, I don't get involved in politics because I don't have the right to tell people what they should or shouldn't vote for. It's just not my business, I'm being honest with you.

• 53:55Elizabeth Day?

  Unless it's a gold buzzer act.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  Unless it's something I make, that's different. But, you know, look, we live, that's the world. Some people are going to be happy, some people not. That's life. With Brexit, it's a really good example. I believe none of us knew what we were voting for. I still don't really know now, other than I have a much stronger opinion now than I had a few years ago, because I now know what it's like not to be in the European Union. We should have voted, I believe, to stay in because we're tiny and we have to be, just like life, you have our partners. You have a partner, I have partners, and Britain needs a partner. And I just don't think the public were given the ability to understand really what we

• 54:40Speaker 01

  were voting for. I think if it was to happen again, I believe that we would vote to stay with Europe. I really do believe that.

• 54:49Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, now.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  So let's have referendum. I really mean that. And you know what, I would do a show called You The Jury, and I would, no politicians, and I would get really, really smart people on the show who don't want to be in Europe and do want to be in Europe, and then understand why it's a good idea or a bad idea. We weren't given that opportunity.

• 55:15Elizabeth Day?

  Great. Someone commission that show immediately.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  If there's a referendum, I would do it. I really mean it.

• 55:20Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:22Elizabeth Day?

  All three of your failures, they've been great, but they've all been professional failures. If you had to pick a personal failure that you think you've learnt the most from, what would it be?

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Well, I look, I'm quite lucky in that way. Um, I'm friends with most of my ex-girlfriends.

• 55:39Elizabeth Day?

  Has that ever threatened a current partner?

• 55:42Speaker 01

  Well, it's been a little bit complicated at times, you know, I mean, sometimes I'm aware at a dinner table, you know, there's ten people and half of them are my ex-girlfriends. Um, however, we are really, actually really, really good friends still. I still love them really, um, not in that way, but they're like my family. I mean, seriously, I mean, I look upon them like that. So I I've been really lucky actually, and my friends have been great actually. I've had great friends and I did something recently where I just didn't have the money to pay people to help me.

• 56:21Speaker 01

  So I seriously had to say to about twenty people, I'm making something and I really don't have any money, but would you help me? And they all said yes, and that was the most incredible thing.

• 56:36Elizabeth Day?

  Sounds like you love love.

• 56:37Speaker 01

  Yes, I do.

• 56:39Elizabeth Day?

  Two final questions for you. One is what success means to you.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  Oh gosh, that's a good question. I don't look at ratings anymore, and I'll tell you why I don't look at ratings. Because I'll use a Scandinavian drama as an example versus Got Talent. The way they calculate the ratings for both shows are identical. It's not scientific. It's sort of almost guessing. It's it's so backwards. I don't believe in it. The only thing I believe in is the amount of actual views we see online because those are real. So if a clip gets a hundred million views, that or ten million views, whatever, that is success.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Good because I can really calculate it like when I used to make records, I knew if I manufactured two hundred thousand records and sold them, that's a hit. You can't fake it. If you make 200,000 and you sell 2,000, it's a flop. So it was a very uncomplicated way of measuring your success. So that's how fortunately now with social media, I can sort of gauge everything on that really. It's still the going back to the public, the public still dictates your success or your your version of success.

• 58:03Elizabeth Day?

  And what if something is quality that you you really believe in the quality of it, but it doesn't necessarily get 100 million views? Is that successful to you or not?

• 58:13Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 58:14Elizabeth Day?

  It's not? That's so interesting.

• 58:15Speaker 01

  No, I don't believe you can stop something good not being successful. Ie someone writes a great song. If you've got an artist and they've and they've recorded a killer, you know, brilliant song, you can't really stop it not becoming a hit. I I really believe that.

• 58:34Elizabeth Day?

  Final question, if someone's listening to this and they're feeling in the grip of a failure right now, and you could give them one piece of advice for success, what would your advice be?

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Understand the getting there is more fun than being there. And you are going to hear no more than yes, but every no kind of empowers you weirdly.

• 58:57Elizabeth Day?

  Amazing. Simon Cowell, before we go on to failing with friends, I've got one final request.

• 59:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:04Elizabeth Day?

  I'd like you to say it's a yes from me.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  I actually was thinking that you're very good, by the way.

• 59:10Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  You're very good at getting people to talk and swear and get quite emotional, actually. No, you are. You've got a good energy about you. You have.

• 59:20Elizabeth Day?

  That means so much to me.

• 59:21Speaker 01

  Seriously.

• 59:22Elizabeth Day?

  Thank you, truly. Okay, so now you have to say.

• 59:25Speaker 01

  Oh, sorry, I was waffling. Uh, I'm gonna say, let me think about this for a moment.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  It's a yes from me.

• 59:34Elizabeth Day?

  Yay, you didn't like it, you loved it.

• 59:36Speaker 01

  I didn't like it, I loved it.

• 59:40Elizabeth Day?

  You're a legend. Thank you so, so much. I've loved this.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 59:43Elizabeth Day?

  I really have. Please do follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tell all your friends. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.