‘Furious’ Season Finale With Star Emmy Rossum and Creator Liz Meriwether

Chris and Andy break down the finale of ‘Furious’ Season 1 and talk about why this show ended up being so successful (1:01). Then Andy is joined by star Emmy Rossum and series creator Liz Meriwether to talk about how the project came together, depicting the long tail of trauma on screen and striking the right tonal balance, what’s in store for Season 2, and much more (13:17). Subscribe to the Ringer TV YouTube channel here for full episodes of The Watch and so much more! Follow us on IG and TikTok! Hosts: Chris Ryan and Andy Greenwald Guests: Emmy Rossum and Liz Meriwether Producers: Kaya McMullen and Kai Grady Studio Production: Sarah Reddy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:08Chris Ryan?

  Stand up and walk now. Hello and welcome to The Watch. My name is Chris Ryan. I am an editor at theringer.com. And joining me in the studio, he's wearing a tropical shirt. It's Andy Greenwald.

• 1:22Andy Greenwald?

  Big Monday.

• 1:23Chris Ryan?

  Big Monday. We're going to talk about the Furious finale here today. Andy, special guests Liz Meriwether, the creator of Furious, and Emmy Rossum, the star of Furious, are joining you shortly. I unfortunately was not able to participate in that interview due to Ringer NFL Fantasy Football commitments, which I don't think people who are, I don't think the cast and crew of Furious would appreciate.

• 1:46Andy Greenwald?

  I just think they know who the ally is here.

• 1:48Chris Ryan?

  I did want to talk to you about the finale, which I thought was phenomenal, ending a fantastic first season? Question mark?

• 1:55Andy Greenwald?

  Question mark.

• 1:55Chris Ryan?

  Give me some of your impressions about this finale, man.

• 1:58Andy Greenwald?

  Here's the way we're going to do this. This is, ready?

• 2:01Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:01Andy Greenwald?

  This is a phenomenal season of television. This is without question one of the best shows of the year. I would put this first season up against some of the other great, if this is only one and done, some of the other great one-season wonders of the recent past, including I May Destroy You, with which it shares some DNA.

• 2:22Andy Greenwald?

  I thought the finale was brilliant on its own terms and especially excellent when you consider it as another example of the masterclass in pacing that this entire season was, that it got to the end and had room for intrigue, for surprise, for sleight of hand, narrative sleight of hand, for humor, for a lot more romance than I expected, and then also for an ending that, as you were alluding to, was ambiguous in the best possible way. But I wanted to talk specifically, when we talked about this episode, and I will, of course, talk about this as well with Emmy and Liz, that this was an episode of three, three examples of face acting by Emmy throughout the episode.

• 3:05Andy Greenwald?

  There are three moments that I think were just exceptional and so interesting and kind of framed the episode.

• 3:09Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:10Andy Greenwald?

  At the beginning, we get what appears to be one of Alice's first-ever smiles of excitement as she says dishonestly to Nora that she will not go into the house alone. The second bit of face acting comes much later in the episode when she takes Nora's advice and runs right at the most awful thing in the world and watches the video of her young self in the hideous evidence crypt room.

• 3:37Chris Ryan?

  The chamber, yeah.

• 3:38Andy Greenwald?

  And the third is her expression at the end when Catherine says to her, you know, did you like how it felt? And the expression that suggests any number of things, including a slightly demented future.

• 3:55Chris Ryan?

  Yes.

• 3:55Andy Greenwald?

  For Alice.

• 3:56Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:57Andy Greenwald?

  Incredible performance all around and an incredible journey even within this episode for a character that has had a lot to do over the course of eight episodes.

• 4:05Chris Ryan?

  I think it's that last bit of face acting that struck me the most because one of my favorite parts about this show so far has been the moments of, maybe not ambiguity morally, but ambiguity dramatically and not being didactic, not repeating circumstances with dialogue when we can see on somebody's face how they're feeling about something. And when you're locked into the performers at the level of what Lola Predicrew and Emmy Rossum are giving you, you can kind of read your own story and you read your own emotional reaction into like what their behaviors are dictating. And rather than having them tell you like, this is why I did what I did and how I feel

• 4:48Chris Ryan?

  about what I did, I think it's messier than that. And I think it's less, it's less simple than this was right, or this was wrong, or this was justified, or that was unlawful. It's more fucked up and hazy and visceral and it's both at the same time. And very few television shows now do that because of market forces that demand that they let you know what's happening on screen while you're looking at your phone while it's happening.

• 5:17Chris Ryan?

  I thought that this was a show that always made a choice and always seemed to have an intention from the, as we've pointed out many times before, the incredible score that accompanies this and is a character unto itself.

• 5:30Andy Greenwald?

  Aerial marks.

• 5:30Chris Ryan?

  The anamorphic shooting style, the performances. So yeah, like that's what stuck with me is that last moment.

• 5:39Andy Greenwald?

  This show demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to understand what merited our attention as audience. It was unflinching in that, in terms of what parts of the story to attend to and what parts not to attend to. And I think that to your point about like market forces and things, I also, when we talk about tropes in this genre, there are often beats that are part of the transaction. Like you, you invest or you buy, you spend your time on something and you think you're going to be rewarded with certain types of scenes, like whether it's justice or violence being returned upon the perpetrator in some way. I think when I say this, I'm thinking specifically about what happens with Marshall, who is Jake

• 6:24Andy Greenwald?

  Lacy's character, who gets a lot of screen time early on and in surprising and upsetting ways.

• 6:33Andy Greenwald?

  His return from his gunshot wound two episodes ago was effective, devastating, and entirely appropriate. We see him at the end of the episode at a NYPD ceremony, he's in a wheelchair. It's unclear whether that is permanent or not. And he's being given a commendation for all that he did to bring down Catherine.

• 6:53Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 6:54Andy Greenwald?

  Which was not even on his radar. And he's getting a medal and he's getting a promotion. And that's about all the time we have for him. And it's reminding us one of the show's cruelest lessons, which is things don't really change. Certain circumstances change, certain people have opportunities to enact small vengences or, you know, there may no longer be a Jay Easton specifically, but there are many other Jay Eastons and the cycle continues. And in a way, the most horrifying line in the whole episode is Ed saying to Nora at the mansion, she was just a dead girl. And his calculus of the information that he got that led to a more splashy bust or

• 7:34Andy Greenwald?

  national security to his mind far outweighs Isabel's life, which was, you know, pointed in the wrong direction anyway. It's, there's just a clarity of focus in the show about what matters and what it's trying to tell us that is really, really impressive and really hard to maintain.

• 7:50Chris Ryan?

  I thought also, you know, we've compared this show to Killing Eve. You mentioned I May Destroy You, you know, both talk, both stories about female rage and, and female women trying to find justice in this world. I also kept thinking about The Wire while I was watching this last episode. I've been re-watching bits and pieces of The Wire because there's an HBO channel that's just like playing it right now. And I had forgotten the kind of nuances of when they're first setting up the cases in the first season of The Wire and when they kind of culminate in the third season of The Wire about the idea of what the real criminal is, who the real criminal is and

• 8:35Chris Ryan?

  what the real crime is, rather than street drug dealing, which may be a nuisance and may bring down lives. It's like more about like, no, what's the political overstructure that allows this to happen? What is the institutional like culpability? Who are the major players that we need to be going after? That not satisfying the people who are like, but D'Angelo or Wallace or whatever.

• 9:01Chris Ryan?

  See, I felt like there was echoes of that in this story.

• 9:05Chris Ryan?

  And you're confronted with like, not only the differences between the way that the FBI and the police department are trying to go about their business in this show, but somebody who's so cravenly, obviously evil, like Jay Easton, somebody who's at least her belief in herself is that she is a victim, is Emma Easton, played by

• 9:27Andy Greenwald?

  It's an amazing performance.

• 9:29Chris Ryan?

  David's character. And we are at the end of this season, I think it's asking the audience to think about who that character is and what becomes of her, rather than, you know, if there is a second season, sure, it could be the hunt for Emma Easton or whatever. But I, I think this show is going to go somewhere else if it continues.

• 9:49Andy Greenwald?

  It's a beaut-- the last glimpse we have of her is of something spilling out of a bag she can't carry, intercut with the grave being dug. And it's really heavy to think about, like, what are the victories, quote unquote, of this season? Isabel's, you know, defaced remains are recovered and moved from an unmarked grave to a marked grave. That's pretty much it.

• 10:15Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Andy Greenwald?

  Not to say that doesn't matter, but it's a question of, you know, like what Ed says to Nora, like, there's something wrong with you for wanting to stay in the basement.

• 10:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, you're sick.

• 10:24Andy Greenwald?

  You're sick for doing that. But then, someone has to do it.

• 10:28Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Andy Greenwald?

  And the dignity of that and the rage that that, the hopelessness or the frustration that entails is so palpable in the show. I love that, you know, in week one, you correctly, as a longtime viewer of things, quote unquote, like this, pointed out Scoot McNairy's character. Is there going to be a turn? Is he going to be McBain? Does he whatever? But he was doing his best. And the show had room for him to have a potentially hopeful outcome, both romantically and in his own life. It had enough room for that shot of him telling Nora that he was just carrying his dirty laundry, and then he flips his NYPD cap on backwards. And you watch that moment, and I'm like, I don't know if that was Scoot McNairy fucking around on take nine, but it's so alive.

• 11:10Chris Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 11:10Andy Greenwald?

  And you can't get it out of your head. And where do you find the room and the space for it? So how did you feel about the ambiguity of the ending? Would you like more of the show? Do you think it's primed for more?

• 11:21Chris Ryan?

  I'm, I can't really get a sense for how commercially or audience-wise successful the show is. Obviously, critically, it's been really, really well-regarded. I would imagine, given the way it ends, and given the button on Catherine viewing her own footage and then seeing who's downloaded it and the usernames and all of that, like, that would give a runway for like, what she's going to be investigating next season. It could also turn her into something of an avenging angel if this continues to be like--

• 11:52Andy Greenwald?

  But I think what's beautiful about that is, you're right, there's the, there's the sense that there's been a baton pass between these women who shared a certain experience and a certain perspective. The idea, the way that even within this episode, Liz, who wrote the episode, hid the ball of what actually happened to Jay Easton. Again, it's not like, you know, it's not like a usual suspects. It's not like a whoa twist, but the way that it's doled out is some beautiful narrative sleight of hand.

• 12:17Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, when he first passes away, I was like, I wonder if his daughter tripled him.

• 12:22Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, there's something to think about.

• 12:23Chris Ryan?

  Yeah, I was like--

• 12:24Andy Greenwald?

  But then you see what it is. But I, what I'm really struck by at the end is that it sets up the idea that maybe Alice is going to become some sort of Avenger as well. But this is not, this is 2026. This is the internet. There are 50,000 stupid names. Just stupid, you know--

• 12:42Chris Ryan?

  Usernames, yeah.

• 12:43Andy Greenwald?

  Usernames. Some of these people might be evil, but some of them just are probably just men. And I don't think a second season, I'm not saying you were saying this, but like, I love the way it handed us a premise while also invalidating the premise, because she may be reckless, and I would imagine if the show continued, there would be more self-destructive tendencies professionally and otherwise for Alice. But she is not going to go on a 50,000 username killing spree.

• 13:07Chris Ryan?

  Sure.

• 13:07Andy Greenwald?

  You know what I mean? And so I love the way it gave us--

• 13:09Chris Ryan?

  I meant more she would--

• 13:11Andy Greenwald?

  No, she would--

• 13:11Chris Ryan?

  On them now, like legally, like she would, she would--

• 13:13Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 13:13Chris Ryan?

  Be like, here are the people that we need to now--

• 13:15Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe. But also, what I love is that it suggested that, what is anyone ever going to do? One drop in the ocean versus giant tsunami. And I, it's just a very rare alchemy, I think, to have a show that succeeds so profoundly on a creative level of like Quincy Tyler Bernstein's performance, Danny McCarthy, who plays Ed George, which is an absolutely superstar subtle supporting performance, Ariel Marx's score, the beautiful direction, Corey Finley in this episode, many others throughout the season, and just the humor and the heart and the life, so that when she walks into the bullpen at the end and Choi's there, I'm like, wow, this is a TV show.

• 13:50Chris Ryan?

  That's what I mean, yeah.

• 13:51Andy Greenwald?

  You have that. And yet, it never, it, it never lost sight of what the message and what the thematic weight of what the show wants to communicate was. Like, that is a very hard thing to do both successfully and leave you after eight episodes even wanting more.

• 14:06Chris Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, I can't wait to listen to your interview with Liz and Emmy, and we'll get into that. And then we'll be back on Thursday to talk about lanterns and much more.

• 14:15Andy Greenwald?

  So much more. I am so thrilled to be joined once again on the pod by returning guests, the creator and showrunner of Furious, Liz Meriwether, and the executive producer and star, Emmy Rossum. Thank you so much for being here and congratulations on one of the best shows of the year.

• 14:31Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 14:32Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 14:32Speaker 06

  So much.

• 14:33Andy Greenwald?

  We have to do a little housekeeping at the top, because this interview is beginning right at the end of, Chris and I spoke about the finale. And we spent a great amount of time talking about, you know, well, if they do renew it, well, surely they will, but they might. And then we finished recording, and Hulu, I do believe, tapped into our studio and waited until the moment we cut to send the press release. So we are not breaking news, but if you have been listening to this podcast, wondering what was wrong with me and with Chris, the show has been renewed for a second season.

• 15:01Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 15:02Andy Greenwald?

  Congratulations on that.

• 15:03Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 15:03Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 15:04Andy Greenwald?

  This was not news to the two of you, I imagine.

• 15:06Speaker 06

  No. No. We were, we were three weeks into the writers' room.

• 15:09Andy Greenwald?

  Okay.

• 15:11Speaker 07

  I feel like I was like, three weeks into the writers' room on season one, and I was like, what's season two? I'm thirsty.

• 15:17Andy Greenwald?

  You, you, you knew from the beginning. Was it designed from the beginning to potentially run multiple years?

• 15:21Speaker 06

  Andy, no, nothing has been designed about this show. I don't know how to design stuff. I'm three weeks into the writers' room on season two, and I have no idea what's gonna happen. So, yeah.

• 15:33Andy Greenwald?

  Should we use this as an opportunity for like, growth and healing? Do you want to just sort of pitch Emmy on where you're at right now?

• 15:38Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's do that. Let's workshop it right now.

• 15:39Andy Greenwald?

  Let's bring Emmy in on some of your ideas.

• 15:41Speaker 06

  High pressure.

• 15:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, let's do it. In fact, let's stream this live.

• 15:45Andy Greenwald?

  I've got some thoughts.

• 15:47Speaker 06

  Honestly, if you have thoughts on season two, please let me know.

• 15:50Andy Greenwald?

  Let me open up a different doc. I also do want to acknowledge that this will be on video, and Liz, thank you for getting the memo about the dress code.

• 15:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, we--

• 15:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 06

  We decided to dress exactly the same.

• 16:00Andy Greenwald?

  I appreciate it.

• 16:01Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 16:01Speaker 06

  We're both wearing a white shirt and we're wearing like, a cool writer--

• 16:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, we're just writers.

• 16:07Speaker 06

  We're just writers.

• 16:08Andy Greenwald?

  Oh, this outfit.

• 16:08Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:09Andy Greenwald?

  AKA, the one shirt I'll wear on camera? Whatever, I just threw it on. And sadly, Chris was wearing the same shirt as you, and I sent him home.

• 16:17Speaker 07

  A tropical shirt.

• 16:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, that's why he's not here.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  That is one of my favorite, I mean, I'm kind of like complimenting myself, but it's one of my favorite lines, the, the like--

• 16:25Speaker 07

  Why is she wearing a tropical shirt?

• 16:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 16:27Speaker 07

  That's why I wear this tropical shirt.

• 16:29Andy Greenwald?

  It is one--

• 16:30Speaker 07

  He's like, you don't look like an-- And they're like, um, excuse me? I mean, you know, the, why is she in a tropical shirt? I love it.

• 16:35Speaker 06

  I love that actor. He kept auditioning, like, we didn't cast him, like, for multiple things, and he kept coming in. And I was like, the cop, the cop. And then it was like, exciting.

• 16:44Andy Greenwald?

  And the casting told me so much, because the Greenwich Police Department allows you to have hair down to a certain length. You know, it's not like the New York Yankees, you know what I mean? They have a different--

• 16:53Speaker 06

  We got a little loose towards the end.

• 16:55Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 16:56Speaker 06

  We were like, yeah, whatever, he's fine.

• 16:57Andy Greenwald?

  But genuinely, I'm glad, the tropical shirt moment is so special, because to me, it captures what is amazing about the show. Even in the midst of one of the most frenetic and intense and emotional finales in recent memory, you have room for a shirt joke. You have room for it.

• 17:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 17:11Speaker 07

  But I think you're always bringing life to the, even the smallest characters. Like, in that moment where Eduardo comes to Ed George and is like, hey, I am, I am also Ed. Eduardo, Ed George. And Ed George is like, tell me what's on the damn laptop. I think that there's such specificity of, like, it's also setting up those dynamics.

• 17:31Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 17:31Speaker 07

  But it's so funny, and it's so, it gives you the levity that allows you to go to the such dark places that, that we're going--

• 17:38Speaker 06

  It's honestly like, I'm just so bad at naming.

• 17:40Speaker 07

  She can't help herself.

• 17:41Speaker 06

  I'm so bad at like, naming characters. And like, it's like, this, I just like, needed a guy to like, work in tech. And I was like, what am I gonna, okay, his name's also Ed. I think there's something about kind of being like, very late and turning in scripts and, and being very tired, and then you just like, lose it, and then you, you know, come up with Eduardo, because you have no other ideas and it's the middle of the night.

• 18:08Andy Greenwald?

  And yet now, months later, we're talking about it.

• 18:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, it's good. I mean, I, I will say like, that, that sort of tropical shirt, that, when we were cutting the finale, it was like, that scene in the, in the, I don't even know what you call it, the like--

• 18:22Speaker 07

  Safe room.

• 18:23Speaker 06

  The, the room of hell where Jason has his, his stash. That scene is so intense. And then there, there was probably another like, five minutes of material outside of the house that was like comedic. There was a lot of like, cop banter and sort of, you know, a pissing contest kind of stuff. And I think you helped me, like, you, you watched the finale and you were like, or somebody did, where there was like, let's do a little less of the, like, Greenwich PD comedy, because it's like--

• 18:58Speaker 06

  That is, that is the trick with the show is kind of finding the balance and finding the tone. And it was hard to go from, you know, really silly jokes back into that room. And so it was, for me, it was just like this constant kind of feeling it out, like how, but I think if we, you know, if you didn't leave that room, I think it would be too much. So it was kind of like just figuring out how to find that balance.

• 19:22Andy Greenwald?

  The balance is amazing, but I love specifically what you just said, Emmy, which is that there's room for life. Like, I'm still hung up on a different moment from the finale, which is when Scoot says he's just carrying his dirty laundry and he walks out with his hat on backwards.

• 19:34Speaker 06

  That was Scoot. That wasn't in the script.

• 19:36Andy Greenwald?

  I wondered.

• 19:36Speaker 06

  But with the hat.

• 19:37Andy Greenwald?

  But he kept it.

• 19:38Speaker 06

  Oh, God, of course.

• 19:39Andy Greenwald?

  And because it's like, oh, this is, it reminds you that there's someone alive in here, in these characters, in this production, in this whole process.

• 19:46Speaker 06

  I feel like it was something I learned with dying for sex, because it was, I think if you, if you are gonna go to these incredibly dark places, you have to give people a chance to breathe, or else they're just gonna shut down. It's like, too much. So I think that was like, I, I, I think in order to get people to listen, you have to get them to laugh in the middle of it somewhere. So, yeah.

• 20:10Andy Greenwald?

  It's something that Damon Lindelof once said to me about the difference between season one and season two of The Leftovers, was he remembered, or someone reminded him that people laugh at wakes. That they're not like a performance only of misery, that there's life. You, to see the dark, you have to see the light.

• 20:24Speaker 06

  And to know what is, what the cost is, like, that there, these people, Alice and Nora, like, doing this incredibly difficult job and just trying to hold on to their souls, trying to hold on to their humanity. And then you wanna see their humanity. You wanna see them, like, as people. And then you kind of see how hard it is for them to keep that joy, or keep that, like, humanity in all of it.

• 20:48Andy Greenwald?

  Well, that's specifically something, Emmy, you may have heard me say this. We know Liz doesn't listen to the podcast, so.

• 20:52Speaker 06

  I can't, I don't, like, I don't read reviews. I just, I can't engage. I went down that path with New Girl, and I like, it took me years to climb out of it, so I just don't.

• 21:01Andy Greenwald?

  I'm not gonna sit here and tell you to read the internet. I'm definitely not gonna give you that advice. I think you're making the right choice.

• 21:06Speaker 07

  You mean, you're not, you're not reading the subreddits?

• 21:10Speaker 06

  I am definitely not on the subreddit. But a writer in our writers' room is on the subreddit and is like constantly bringing in, like, thoughts on the subreddit.

• 21:18Speaker 07

  That's great.

• 21:18Andy Greenwald?

  Well, one thing that I was saying a lot in the first few episodes that really struck me was that, you know, if you were gonna do the logline of the show, or if someone's gonna be sort of glib about writing about it, they might say it is about, you know, traumatic events, or traumatic histories. But what I found so striking from the beginning was that it was very much about a present. A present moment where people who may have, they have experienced trauma, they have been traumatized, but they are alive right now. And then what do we do? And I, I don't know if that's too heady a thought, but I wondered if that was something that was, that existed in your, in your writing, or even, Emmy, in your prep, in terms of how to become this woman and live in the immediate present of her life, not consistently be pulled into her past.

• 21:57Speaker 07

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, I think the character's superpower, oh, Liz is choking on her tea.

• 22:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's because, it's because she pulled the bag too early. See, this is the problem. Just where people just, people just tuning in. Emmy got her tea timing perfect. Liz wardrobe right, but tea was a mess.

• 22:17Speaker 06

  Please, please, please continue.

• 22:19Speaker 07

  No, I, I think the character's superpower is her ability to dissociate from herself. It, it, when trauma comes up, you see that she's squeezing her hands, progressive muscle relaxation. It's intentional to try to make those feelings subside, to go away, to put them back in the box. This is a character who has a lot of secrets. She doesn't believe she can get justice for herself, doesn't maybe even think she's the right kind of person that is deserving of justice. So she's definitely also, because of her trauma, got obsessive tendencies, definitely not diagnosed, and puts that all into the work, and stays extremely present and extremely driven on anything except herself. And, you know, she's

• 23:02Speaker 07

  buttoned all the way to the top, doesn't want anyone to get close, smells probably subconsciously, intentionally to keep people away from her. She is driven in this moment to not look back. And it's gonna be this case that caused, and, you know, having to come in contact with the ex and the kind of thread that she shares with this killer, that is gonna make all this stuff come up for her, that's gonna force her to kind of, the rage is gonna uncork in a way that like, the pressure in that bottle has been, it's been, there's a lot of white knuckling going on.

• 23:41Speaker 06

  I just think also, I think you see the moment of trauma on TV a lot, where you see, you know, the, the thing that happens, that's, but you don't see the years, the long tail of trauma, you know, like, you don't see the years after. And the, so I think there's a misunderstanding around the process of healing, because you don't see it a lot, because it's not dramatic, you know, it's like, I get it, the trauma part is more exciting. But I think, it was really interesting, actually, I spoke to a woman who had been trafficked, Jay Benkey, who runs advocacy groups now. And she was talking

• 24:25Speaker 06

  about her experience with the justice system was, they kind of come in, they wanna get quote unquote, justice, punishment, they wanna get a, you know, someone sentenced. But there's no engagement with what happens after that, and sort of the long process of healing, and how do you just like, figure out how to be a person again after you've been trafficked and all this stuff. So I, I do think, I'm proud of the show kind of like showing, well, one person became a serial killer, but I'm proud of the show like showing the complexities of that, and the difficulties of it, and the, you know, how it doesn't make sense. A lot of the times, it has a very like, nonlinear, healing is nonlinear

• 25:07Speaker 06

  and complicated and messy. And I, I think Emmy does such an incredible job of showing that and performing that. And just, she just dove right into it in a great way.

• 25:17Andy Greenwald?

  I, I do wanna ask eventually, I have some questions about the genesis of the project, but I wanna stay on the finale just for a moment, since people have just watched it. And specifically, there were three moments that really defined the episode for me, and they are three moments of face acting by you.

• 25:30Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 25:31Andy Greenwald?

  That are spectacular.

• 25:31Speaker 07

  My favorite, my favorite kind of acting is nonverbal.

• 25:33Andy Greenwald?

  Feel free to do some now as well.

• 25:36Speaker 06

  Wait a second, nonverbal's your favorite?

• 25:37Speaker 07

  My favorite.

• 25:38Speaker 06

  What, why was I working so hard?

• 25:39Speaker 07

  I don't know. I love not talking. Not talking is my favorite kind of, my favorite kind of acting.

• 25:44Andy Greenwald?

  Just, just hand her the 201 script and it's blank.

• 25:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:46Speaker 07

  It's like blank.

• 25:47Andy Greenwald?

  Just.

• 25:48Speaker 06

  Close, close on Alice. She face acts.

• 25:51Andy Greenwald?

  Fade out. Beautiful. Okay, so here are the three moments I wanna, I wanna run by, and then we could talk about them in the context of the character's journey and also the finale. There is a smile on the way to Jay Easton's house when Alice lies to Nora about going in the house alone. And it is one of, at least to my, my, my eyes, one of the purest smiles the character is given during the course of the season. The second is, of course, the long hold on your face when you watch the horrific video. And there are, there is intensity, there's reaction, there's horror, there's tears, and then there is a second look. The third is the, I, I wrote in my notes, hunter slash hungry, when you see the, the 50,000 gross usernames of people who have downloaded the file. That's

• 26:35Andy Greenwald?

  the journey of Alice in the episode. Might also be the journey of Alice in the season. I do have questions about the sort of granular process of finding those moments in a character that you've been building over the course of the season, and then maybe to you, Liz, just about the journey.

• 26:48Speaker 07

  The first one, I don't think was a scripted reaction. She knows by this point that she has this kind of secret bond with Nora, and Nora is kind of giving her the go ahead to go into that house. And she also knows that Danny cares about her, don't go into that house. And that's ultimately, even though she won't admit it to herself, what she wants. And also, there's the excitement of, I know I'm going into that fucking house. And like you said on the pod, like, everything is converging on this like scary monster house, which is like, just so exciting. Like, it's all coming to an apex, and like, something's gonna happen. And then the second one is the watching of the tape, which I think trauma is so interesting because.

• 27:32Speaker 07

  Alice has been wanting to get into that room since the first episode. Even when she goes down to C20 in the first episode, she looks at the keypad and she wants in that room. And we don't know why yet. And I don't know if she knows that the tape, how widely the tape exists. I think she knows the tape exists, didn't disclose it, doesn't know how widely it's circulated. But like, trauma is weird and we block things out. And I don't, I think seeing the video is so incredibly painful at the same time as somehow feeling relief like you're not crazy. And also like, just watching your young self get hurt is just like, really horrific.

• 28:18Speaker 07

  And it's weird because trauma is so weird and dissociative. We can like misremember things all the time, which is obviously what's happening with Catherine. And yesterday, two days ago, I was at lunch with Quincy and we were talking about when we were training for this.

• 28:33Andy Greenwald?

  And then Quincy plays Nora.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  Plays Nora.

• 28:35Speaker 06

  You guys went to an FBI.

• 28:36Speaker 07

  We went, we got snuck on to West Point. We like laid flat in a truck.

• 28:40Speaker 06

  Oh, West Point, right.

• 28:41Speaker 07

  And got snuck onto West Point. I had already been training.

• 28:44Speaker 06

  You didn't tell me that you laid flat on a truck.

• 28:46Speaker 07

  Yeah, we laid flat.

• 28:47Andy Greenwald?

  Were you worried Liz was gonna narc you out?

• 28:48Speaker 07

  I don't know. I think we were just like, this is crazy. But like, I wanna do everything, like, give, yeah.

• 28:54Speaker 06

  Hello, is this West Point? Check all your trucks.

• 28:58Andy Greenwald?

  Anonymous tip from a concerned US citizen.

• 29:01Speaker 07

  But I had been shooting guns and preparing and clearing rooms and training with ex-FBI and ex-NYPD for a year. Quincy was cast right before we started shooting. And I said, do you wanna shoot guns? Like, let's make this real for us. And so I got us snuck onto West Point and.

• 29:18Andy Greenwald?

  We'll circle back, don't worry, Liz.

• 29:18Speaker 07

  We'll circle back. They gave us the training. They like told us how to interrogate people, told us how to like make connections with suspects. They gave us firearms to shoot. And then they were like, do you wanna do grenades?

• 29:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, you don't know this story. And my remembering of it when we were at lunch yesterday was like, oh, no, thank you, we're all good. And Quincy was like, no, you did the grenade.

• 29:42Andy Greenwald?

  What?

• 29:42Speaker 07

  And I was like, I did the grenade? And she's like, 100%. You were shaking, you were terrified.

• 29:47Speaker 06

  What does it mean when you say, I did the grenade?

• 29:48Speaker 07

  You pull the pin and throw the grenade and it throws up. It blows up, like on this crazy hill with all these bombed up trucks.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  If anyone from Hulu HR is listening and did not notice.

• 29:58Andy Greenwald?

  Also, if anyone from the US Army is listening, please let us know if do the grenade is what you say in basic training.

• 30:04Speaker 06

  It's definitely not.

• 30:05Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, soldiers, time to do the grenade.

• 30:09Andy Greenwald?

  And be fabulous when you do it.

• 30:10Speaker 06

  I know, I was just picturing a dance. We're doing the grenade.

• 30:17Speaker 07

  In any case, allegedly, I did the grenade. I have no memory of this. Quincy definitely remembers this. I guess I was like, I am all for like, let's do whatever it takes to make this as real as possible.

• 30:27Andy Greenwald?

  Sure.

• 30:27Speaker 07

  So I did the grenade. So in any case, I think you can misremember things. And when things have been scary or adrenalized or traumatizing to you, you don't remember them. So I think when she's watching the video, she's like, I know now this really happened. Because this is 25 years ago.

• 30:42Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 07

  And you can definitely remember something happening, but seeing it is somehow like crystallizing like, yeah, I am a fucking warrior. I am a survivor.

• 30:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 07

  Like, I'm not a, like, that was a child and that's not me anymore.

• 30:53Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 30:54Speaker 07

  And then she sees the names and the number. 50,000 plus people have watched this victimization. And I think that's like, okay, now it's, now, now, now I'm galvanized with this information. I don't know what I'm gonna do with it. Liz will decide in season two.

• 31:10Andy Greenwald?

  I'm sure she's already decided.

• 31:11Speaker 07

  She's already decided.

• 31:12Speaker 06

  Well, now I know you're gonna do a grenade.

• 31:13Speaker 07

  I'm gonna definitely do a grenade.

• 31:14Speaker 06

  That's settled.

• 31:15Andy Greenwald?

  Episode one.

• 31:16Speaker 06

  I just wanna say, like, we shot, I'm gonna just jump in. No one wants to hear my thoughts.

• 31:23Andy Greenwald?

  Where did you sneak in?

• 31:25Speaker 07

  Everybody wants, I, by the way, I always wanna hear your thoughts.

• 31:29Speaker 06

  You're good. I was there when we shot the, her watching the video. And I mean, it's just like, this is when you know you're dealing with like a powerhouse actor. Because Emmy was able to, kind of, we talked before we shot the first take, but every take was different. And like, and then she did kind of levels of reactions. Like, we did a version that was just very, you know, stone face. We did, and then she worked up to tears. And then we were kind of, like, between every, she's an incredible actor and also an incredible producer because the ability to kind of give that present, amazing performance and then kind of come back afterwards and be like, that worked, I felt like this was good. Let's do, you know what I mean?

• 32:12Speaker 06

  Like, that's, it was, it was so moving. And also, she was like, you're gonna use the tears. And I was like, of course I'm gonna use the tears. What are we talking about?

• 32:20Speaker 07

  But I will also say the relationship between your camera operator in that moment and the actor.

• 32:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 07

  You're in that scene together, right? Because you're looking down the barrel of the lens and the camera operator is this close to you and nobody else is in the room. So it really, really is amazing to have operators, like we had Philip and Wilda, who are human beings that are like actors in the room with you. And they hold that space with you. And I can't say enough about how important the crew is to scenes like that.

• 32:49Speaker 06

  But we just, I think we, I think one of the reasons that we did so many different versions of it was because I, it was, it's kind of unimaginable, right? Like, what, what do you, how do you react to that? And I, I love what you just said because it's actually, it is something we're talking about in the writers' room right now of like, this video is like, it's horrifying that it's out there, but it's also, it's like, you do have proof of it. It's like actual.

• 33:16Speaker 07

  Tangible.

• 33:17Speaker 06

  Tangible proof.

• 33:18Speaker 07

  Your trauma is tangible in a way that.

• 33:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, that I think is like.

• 33:20Speaker 07

  It lingers and it feels like you can't wrap your hands around it and now you can.

• 33:24Speaker 06

  Because this season, I, when I sort of put it together that it was gonna be about Catherine trying to remember what happened to her, which was like a huge victory in terms of structure and all of that. But it was so much about memory, memory distortion, which is the name of the third episode. But just the whole justice system is built on people being able to remember what happened to them and testify that, to what happened to them.

• 33:50Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, with confidence.

• 33:51Speaker 06

  Which is complete opposite of the experience of being a victim. So I think that it, I don't know. I had a point, but I'm just gonna stop talking about that.

• 34:00Andy Greenwald?

  No, but one of the other reasons why I love the show is because the show felt incredibly decisive about what it was and where it was going, even if it didn't always feel that way in the process. And I have to say, sometimes I really like it when shows reveal my own cowardly nature because there was a part of me that was so invested in the series that when she clicked on it and when Nora had said, go look for it, that it would be gone. That she had cleaned it up, that she had taken care of her, you know, on a friend level, not a professional level, which would not have worked for character, for show. And so there was a, I like when I got, I got called out by it, you know, because I didn't want that for them. And I wondered though, if, because the other thing that I was admired so much in the season, and we can get into a few other examples of it, was the pacing.

• 34:44Andy Greenwald?

  That there was room for so much within, you know, it's not a conventional story, but we have seen cat and mouse type stories before. So this finale had room for exciting twists and the surprise at the end. It had room for emotion. It had a surprising amount of room for romance, which I was very happy about, but did not necessarily see coming. And it had that, that collision point at the end that might lead into a second season. So I wondered, Liz, if there were, were any of the things I'm mentioning, specific beats that you knew you were writing to from the beginning?

• 35:15Speaker 07

  Romance.

• 35:17Andy Greenwald?

  Even if, even if only that. I wondered what, if you did have like a North Star from that episode.

• 35:24Speaker 06

  Yes, I knew, I knew that she loved Danny and Danny loved her. But I didn't know that we were gonna take it all the way, all, go all the way, if you will, do the grenade.

• 35:34Andy Greenwald?

  Do the grenade.

• 35:35Speaker 07

  We did the grenade.

• 35:36Andy Greenwald?

  Two consenting adults, sure.

• 35:37Speaker 06

  But, yeah, I think at that point, I, I think I needed them to be in that condo. Like, I was just, I felt, I was so in it when I was writing that finale. I didn't know how they were gonna get out of the house. And I remember writing the finale and I actually had a panic attack. Let's talk about mental health, but no.

• 35:59Andy Greenwald?

  Please, this is my favorite topic.

• 36:02Speaker 06

  I had a panic attack because I was like, I, it was like art imitating life where I was writing them in the Easton house and I didn't know what they were gonna do to get out of the house.

• 36:14Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Speaker 06

  But I, so I was like, I feel like I'm in the house. You know, it was so insane. It was so hard to write that finale. And then it was just such a relief to write the scenes in the condo where I was, I, I think the part of me that, you know, worked on seven seasons of The Will They or Won't They was like, I'm doing this too soon. But I needed them to like get that win and sort of like have that moment of love because I just felt like we'd all been through so much that I like wanted her to feel tenderness and love and like, you know. And I like that it kind of exists outside of the world. Like, it's, you know, New Jersey, which it's.

• 36:52Speaker 07

  Jersey condo.

• 36:53Speaker 06

  Outer space.

• 36:53Andy Greenwald?

  Literally, yeah, it could be any.

• 36:55Speaker 06

  But like, it's like, you know, it's sort of not their normal lives. It's like, this, this other kind of place.

• 37:01Andy Greenwald?

  I will, just as a side note, say that my older daughter, out of nowhere yesterday, or two days ago, said, Dad, do you know that Jess and Nick don't kiss for like 74 more episodes?

• 37:13Andy Greenwald?

  You know, we used to build things in this country, okay? Enough with your instant TikTok ratification.

• 37:19Speaker 06

  That's really funny.

• 37:20Andy Greenwald?

  Let's, I wanna go back to the beginning because, you know, when the, when the show was announced and the show premiered, there was a lot of talk about a, to my mind, I did not know the film Black Widow. I did not remember it. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about the genesis of the project. Was one of you a secret Black Widow obsessive? Was, how did, how did, how did the project come together? And how did you two partner on it?

• 37:39Speaker 06

  Well, you are a Black Widow, right?

• 37:41Speaker 07

  Yes, yes, I've killed so many of my husbands.

• 37:45Andy Greenwald?

  I warn Sam constantly.

• 37:46Speaker 07

  R.I.P. Sam S. Melville, I love that guy.

• 37:48Andy Greenwald?

  He hasn't been on the pod in a couple of years.

• 37:50Speaker 07

  I know, it's true, because I killed him.

• 37:51Speaker 06

  Nobody's seen him.

• 37:53Speaker 07

  He was out last night, guys. He was seen.

• 37:56Andy Greenwald?

  Plausible deniability. It's about you being seen out last night that saves you.

• 37:59Speaker 07

  That's true.

• 38:01Speaker 07

  No, I went back and I spent a summer watching old movies looking for an idea. Looking for something that would be a jumping off point. I had developed the show Angeline at Hulu at first, before I ended up making it at Peacock. So I started looking in the searchlight category, catalog and.

• 38:25Speaker 07

  I just looked at log lines and watched all the movies that I thought might spark something. Black Widow was one with Debra Winger and Teresa Russell. I had made a movie with Teresa Russell when I was 14. So it was.

• 38:35Speaker 06

  I didn't know that.

• 38:36Speaker 07

  Yeah. So it was super high, called Passionata. It was super high on my list of like, I want to watch this one because I remember working with that actress. And I watched the movie and the first half is like cat and mouse. Debra Winger plays this FBI agent who's in this like gross boys' club misogynistic environment. No one's taking her seriously. And I was like, okay, well, that that that tracks for contemporary day. Not not much has changed. And the the killer who you know from the first scene is the killer. I felt that was pretty refreshing, too. They're giving it to you upfront. And it's this kind of there on this collision course. And in the back half, these two women, who are both kind of lonely and kind of need a friend, end up meeting under false pretenses on this beach in Hawaii or wherever they are.

• 39:20Speaker 07

  And there's this amazing set piece that I kept trying to convince Liz we had to put in the first season. She was like, we're not going to a Croatian beach. I don't know what you're talking about.

• 39:29Speaker 06

  Okay, okay.

• 39:30Andy Greenwald?

  What? Go to the beach.

• 39:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, of course.

• 39:32Speaker 07

  She was like, the beach you're gonna get is a cold beach in New Jersey.

• 39:36Andy Greenwald?

  Did you turn to her and say, you're welcome?

• 39:38Speaker 07

  She was like, I'll give you a cold beach in New Jersey, but I will not give you. But in the movie, there's like this scuba diving set piece where you don't know if they're gonna kill each other or kiss. And it's and they also like kind of weirdly become friends, but then you know. And then there's this kind of showdown in the jail at the end. So I was like, okay, and and and the characters are pretty. Like, there's room to kind of beef them up and to figure out what their psychological profiles are. And so I took the idea to Hulu. They liked it. They had just finished the dropout with Liz and said, do you like Liz? And I was like, no, I love Liz. I don't know Liz, but I know I love Liz. And Liz watched the movie and a day later, they were like, you have a show.

• 40:14Andy Greenwald?

  Wow.

• 40:14Speaker 07

  So it was a remarkably almost like kismet-y.

• 40:17Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 40:19Speaker 07

  Process.

• 40:20Andy Greenwald?

  That's amazing.

• 40:21Speaker 06

  I I spoke to Ronald Bass, who wrote Black Widow. We had like one conversation and he said that he had pitched the movie. Like he had just like a bunch of ideas and he just like sort of took one from.

• 40:36Andy Greenwald?

  One idea?

• 40:37Speaker 06

  One idea to it and put them together. But no, I mean, it's it is such a like strange movie in in a great way. And it felt because it's a movie, it didn't really have time to get into like all of the backstory of the characters and kind of makes a point to not get into any backstory. Because Debra Winger make does this monologue about her dad and then at the end of it is like, just kidding, it's not true. So it just I felt like, oh, there's like room here to like explore something. And I just I I love I love crime shows. I just have always loved them. And I was been dying to write one, but just like kind of didn't know how and didn't know who was gonna ask me to write a crime show. But yeah, there were multiple times throughout the process where I was like, I should not be writing this.

• 41:22Speaker 06

  They should have hired somebody else.

• 41:24Speaker 07

  Yes, you should.

• 41:24Speaker 06

  I think the movie is ultimately about two women who want to be seen by another person, but don't know how to be seen by another person and don't know how to connect with other people. And then they find each other and connect. And it's so I was like, that's so weird in the middle of a crime show to to have that be the thing.

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• 42:35Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13.

• 42:44Speaker 00

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• 43:13Speaker 01

  Bonjour, compadre. It's the.

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• 43:45Andy Greenwald?

  This may sound facetious. I meant I mean this sincerely, that I was thinking that one similarity between New Girl and Furious. I mean, there are many, obviously, but but but sincerely.

• 43:56Speaker 06

  I based Alice on Schmidt.

• 43:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, the same intensity.

• 44:01Andy Greenwald?

  But that but but is it but with in all seriousness, they are both about the challenges women face navigating primarily male spaces. And Alice's FBI is not the same as The Loft. But, you know, we're not the same people we were 15 years ago.

• 44:15Speaker 06

  We really aren't.

• 44:17Andy Greenwald?

  No, but but sincerely, I did wonder if there is a common thread between the shows or just between who you were as a writer then and now that allowed you to use a different media, not a different medium, but like almost a different register to express the story.

• 44:31Speaker 06

  I don't know. I mean, it's such a good question. And I don't I don't understand my career. I haven't like, I haven't really drawn. But I mean, the one thing I will say is I do write about people who want to connect with other people, but don't know how. I do think that's like, you know, I don't know why I do that. That's so strange.

• 44:53Speaker 06

  But I think there is something in all of these characters that kind of want to to find love and connection and friendship and don't know and can't and, you know.

• 45:04Speaker 07

  Family.

• 45:05Speaker 06

  Just one of them kills people to do it. You know, the other one is Elizabeth Holmes. I don't know, like it's.

• 45:13Speaker 06

  I I try to I try to just.

• 45:15Andy Greenwald?

  Inside of you, there are two wolves, one or the other.

• 45:17Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't I don't know. I think if I stop to like really think about any of it, I like it'll go away. So I'm choosing to like put my head in the sand. That's why I don't listen to your podcast.

• 45:27Andy Greenwald?

  That's fine. I don't blame you. But I but but Emmy, as a as a film buff also, like I think you also heard me saying this over the last few weeks that like we're on to something here, I think, with like Zach Craigor being a sketch comedian, who is now the best horror filmmaker of our time. Jordan Peele is another good example. But there's something about, maybe it's the life that we're talking about seeing or that that that comedy naturally affords writers the ability to to share. That jumping into the jumping from one genre to another works. When it works, it works better than almost anything else.

• 45:57Speaker 06

  You talked about the pacing, but I like I do feel like as a comedy writer, you have this enormous pressure to like every scene. Like there needs to be a joke every couple. So at least on New Girl, it was like that kind of traditional.

• 46:12Andy Greenwald?

  You gotta earn your keep.

• 46:13Speaker 06

  You gotta earn your keep. You gotta like, so there's this pressure on every scene to kind of like, what's the bit? What's the game? Where's the joke? And I I do think that helped me on this show to kind of like every scene is like, why, you know, like, what is the what's the point of this? And I to keep that that pressure going is something I've learned, yeah, from seven years of trying to make them laugh.

• 46:39Andy Greenwald?

  Make them laugh. In the so Emmy, this is a question for you as the the EP Emmy, not just the star Emmy. But like, one of the things that that I just delighted in week to week was how and similar to what you're saying about making them make having a laugh in every scene. All the textural aesthetic choices that made the show exciting and surprising. From, you know, the way that the credits overlaid to Ariel Marx's score, which just immediately tells you.

• 47:04Speaker 07

  Ariel's score is incredible.

• 47:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's like, oh, I've heard this before. No, I haven't. Just throughout the whole thing, kind of setting you a little bit askew. And then just the outrageous casting, like the most wonderful from from from Steve Way to Danny McCarthy. To, you know, and of course, we have to talk about before we even get to Lola. I really want to talk about Quincy Tyler Bernstein, who gave us a character I've never seen before on television.

• 47:29Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 47:30Andy Greenwald?

  There was a question, I think, but it was really just more about the element of surprise. Having worked on so many shows as a star and a producer, the way that you can make something come alive through the types of decisions that you, other people might overlook.

• 47:42Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think, you know, it can be overwhelming if you think that you have to make, like, you're like, we're gonna make a great show, you know? But like, things are made because like-minded people come together that understand the, the task at hand the exact same way, align, and then make one tiny decision at a time.

• 48:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 48:07Speaker 07

  So Liz and I were casting Nora. We saw a lot of tapes. Quincy was, I think, our favorite, but we, we tested me with her. It was a slam dunk. We went to see her in the play that she was in that was closing that night, and we were sitting next to each other, watching this incredible actress that we knew we were gonna get the chance to, to work with, watching her, basically.

• 48:30Speaker 06

  She never left the stage.

• 48:31Speaker 07

  She never leaves the stage the entire time. It's an incredible, incredible show that she did, that she then reprised after we shot the first season. And we were sitting there and, and Danny McCarthy was in the show, too.

• 48:43Andy Greenwald?

  Oh.

• 48:43Speaker 07

  And Constance Schulman was in the show, too.

• 48:46Speaker 06

  I just cast everybody.

• 48:47Andy Greenwald?

  Wait, that's amazing. And Constance Schulman plays Marshall's mother in like, two absolutely unforgettable scenes.

• 48:52Speaker 07

  And we were sitting there being like, is this just our whole cast? So sometimes things happen where you're so aligned that you're able to put those pieces in. And Liz had always wanted a musical tapestry for the show that felt very unique. And, you know, when we were talking about it, I said, it should feel very female. So maybe that's a vocal pad, or maybe it's a, like, maybe, you know.

• 49:18Speaker 06

  Oh, the music, yeah.

• 49:19Speaker 07

  The music for Ariel's score. So like, really, kind of, my job as a producer is to fully understand, to get as close to Liz as she will let me get. Literally get inside her shirt to understand her, so that every choice that I'm helping make is advocating for the vision of the showrunner. And what a joy, and as an actor, to be able to be that close to your showrunner, so that every choice that they're thinking and marinating about is also affecting the way that you're understanding character and the way that you're understanding tone.

• 49:55Speaker 06

  Honestly, I was really scared, because I, I, I've worked with actors as EPs before, but never one that has been like, hands-on. And I was like, oh my god, like, I.

• 50:04Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 06

  I was like, how's this gonna work? I'm scared. And Emmy was just incredible. Like, I think it's also about space, you know, because like, you have to fail. And it's like, usually.

• 50:14Speaker 07

  She's like, don't get that close.

• 50:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:17Andy Greenwald?

  Please.

• 50:17Speaker 07

  Don't get inside my shirt.

• 50:19Andy Greenwald?

  She's got a grenade.

• 50:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, don't, don't climb into, don't sneak in with a wagon into my brain. But no, I think, like, I, I'm used to kind of coming to actors with a mostly finished product, so it's scary to me to like, allow an actor into a process where you're kind of like, this isn't right yet, you know? And Emmy was like, incredible partner in that way, because she understood the process. I mean, the music, Ariel did Dying for Sex as well, and I loved working with her. And the music was like, such a journey. It was, the tone of the show, honestly, we, I had an idea as I was writing it, while we were shooting it, and then post, I think it was like, a whole other journey, because there is a kind of flamboyance to the show, or like, a sort of, it's not like, it's not like gritty,

• 51:06Speaker 06

  gritty, gritty, dark, dark, dark. And I want it to kind of like.

• 51:09Andy Greenwald?

  There's a buoyancy.

• 51:09Speaker 06

  There's a buoyancy, thank you. That's better.

• 51:11Speaker 07

  But even in the color palette that, like, that we worked with, it's not like drab, it's not desaturated. Like, we really wanted it to feel like it wasn't bleak.

• 51:21Speaker 06

  And so Ariel had this like, amazing, there's a kind of jazziness to the music, and then there's underlying female vocals that kind of grow as it goes on. And, and we, we called the female vocal score, like, the, the sort of ghosts of the pack, you know, like, the, you know, and so letting those, those voices get louder and louder over the course of the show, obviously, to kind of.

• 51:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 51:45Speaker 06

  You know, take us from the beginning, which has a more buoyancy and more jazz and to, to the end. But I, that was surprising, the kind of like jazz and like, the noir kind of feeling to it. I, I didn't see when we started, and then it kind of.

• 52:01Andy Greenwald?

  But this is something that's hard to articulate, but that we try to talk about on the podcast, too, which is, the best things can only happen when there's space to discover them. You know, if you went in with like, a color palette before you even cast all the parts, or before you got on set or met the directors, it's gonna hold it captive, right? You discovered this.

• 52:19Speaker 06

  It's the worst and best part of, of doing a show, because you feel so scared to be like, I don't know. And I do think, like, as a showrunner, it's taken me a long time to be able to say, I don't know, or to say, that's a place where I can let other people find it, and then go with what their vision is, you know? And, and I think your job is like, to have a vision, to communicate it, and then to give people the space and the safety to, to bring their own work to it. And it took me a very long time to figure that out. So I'm still figuring it out.

• 52:51Andy Greenwald?

  No, you're getting there, I gotta say. We have to talk about Lola Pettit Crew. The last time, I think, I saw them was in Say Nothing, which is an incredible show that I think was underseen. Even if it was well seen, it was still underseen. So I think it's an incredible achievement. And they're bringing to life a historical figure, like, from a very young age to, to some pretty hard experiences.

• 53:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 53:18Andy Greenwald?

  Nothing in that performance gave me the slightest sense, other than the power of, of their ability, that they could do this. How did you find Lola, and what was the process like to discover Catherine?

• 53:30Speaker 06

  I mean, we, we auditioned a lot of people, and amazing actresses came in, and Lola just has this ability to scare the shit out of you and break your heart at the same time. I don't know. I mean, and it's, it's, like, I was like, how are we gonna cast this part? Emmy's more a, more positive person, and I'm always like, we're not gonna be able to find it, we're not gonna be able to do it. And like, I, I just, and then we saw Lola, and it was like, they captivated all of us, scared us, and also, you feel for Catherine. And that, I was like, to, to go on an eight-episode journey with a serial

• 54:10Speaker 06

  killer, I'm like, you can't, you can't be, you know, you, you, you have to feel, you have to have feelings about this person, rooting for them at some level, and then also just genuinely believe that they could kill people.

• 54:22Speaker 07

  But, but Liz's writing is so strong that there, even though Lola was like, the slam dunk, obvious winner, and the performance is incredible, I would say, there were so many people that auditioned that were so strong, because the strength of the material is such, that it's so bold, even for Nora, even for the Danny McCarthy role. Like, I just think that when the scenes are that strong.

• 54:44Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 07

  It, it, you're watching these audition tapes, and you, you can't stop watching them.

• 54:49Andy Greenwald?

  Which, there's no small.

• 54:51Speaker 06

  Parts?

• 54:51Andy Greenwald?

  Parts only, or something like that, because.

• 54:53Speaker 07

  But there's no small buts. Allowed. No small buts allowed.

• 54:57Andy Greenwald?

  BBL, the series, coming soon from Hulu.

• 55:00Speaker 06

  I'm 12 years old, is what I'm realizing.

• 55:02Andy Greenwald?

  But, but just, just that, like, Danny McCarthy, I keep coming back to him, because it's like, that part could have been a zero. And instead, the part is a 10 out of 10. Like, I'm so excited to see him. He's so weird, and he's so funny, and with Scoot has his boot on his face.

• 55:16Speaker 06

  That's so great.

• 55:18Andy Greenwald?

  There's just, every thing is an opportunity. Like you were saying, a small choice can become something quite memorable. There's a larger point to be made, and I'm probably, this is probably the least correct podcast to make it, about how, I think you alluded to it, I mean, like, how deeply female the show is, and how the perspective at every moment in the show is of a, it's not a secret language, but it is a female language that the female characters understand about what happens when you walk into a room, who they're looking at, what they're looking at, how they are being seen. And the men are essentially clueless about the, about all of it. Maybe Alden is the one person who understands a little bit of it because of his disability. This is the most cliched, and I'm embarrassed even ask a question after that preamble, which is, now I wanna ask about the fellas.

• 55:59Speaker 07

  Sure. Let's ask about the bros.

• 56:01Andy Greenwald?

  Come on.

• 56:01Speaker 07

  Let's do the dudes.

• 56:02Andy Greenwald?

  But, but sincerely, though.

• 56:05Speaker 06

  Where is this going?

• 56:07Speaker 07

  Enough of the ladies.

• 56:07Andy Greenwald?

  This is the show. This is the language of the show.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  Right.

• 56:10Andy Greenwald?

  Jake Lacy and Scoot McNairy are in the show as different avatars of masculinity, and play different roles in Alice's life. I was curious about the process of casting those parts, and then specifically Emmy, working with them so intimately, with such different emotional language, within the larger archetype of Alice lives in this world, not necessarily their world. Did I get there?

• 56:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, totally.

• 56:34Andy Greenwald?

  I think I pulled a muscle at that one. Sorry.

• 56:36Speaker 07

  No, I mean, Liz had watched this doc called A Better Man. That is.

• 56:41Speaker 06

  Everybody should watch it, except you, it's not available, which is like, the, you know.

• 56:45Speaker 07

  Isn't it on YouTube?

• 56:46Speaker 06

  I, I spent 50, it was $50 to rent, and I was like.

• 56:50Speaker 07

  We should figure out how to get it out there. That'll be my next job. It's an incredible documentary about a couple that is meeting up to talk about their relationship, which ended years ago, that was very abusive. And it's about how they're meeting now, how they're both remembering it. It's very heartbreaking, it's very human. And I didn't feel like, when you sent that to me, it like, blew the doors open on my ideas of what violence in relationship really looks like. And I think Liz has crafted such an interesting portrait of this relationship between Alice and Marshall. This relationship has lasted 25 years.

• 57:26Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 57:27Speaker 07

  She was at moments, an oasis, a family, a lover, a coworker, a trusted person to watch your back on the street, and then become some, became something that was violent and controlling and manipulative. And you need an actor that can not just play the bad guy. You, because when you watch this.

• 57:50Speaker 06

  It's too easy.

• 57:51Speaker 07

  Yeah. It's also just not the way it is. And it does a disservice to the women, too.

• 57:58Speaker 06

  Yes, yes.

• 57:58Speaker 07

  To not see their experience, and their confusion, and their complicated feelings about those relationships. So you needed an actor that could bring that. And Jake is just a class A actor. He is funny, he is vulnerable, he is strong, he's powerful, he's scary. And he's also just like, the nicest dad ever. So when you're doing these scenes with him. We just trust fell into each other and we had an intimacy coordinator at all times with us. And we really felt that we could build the understanding of this relationship. I would say the whiskey waterboarding scene was definitely the one that we were just both the most stressed about.

• 58:43Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 58:44Speaker 07

  And we got the time on the stage in days prior to kind of do the blocking and work it out with our director Destiny and Liz was there and the coordinator was there and it, you know.

• 58:54Speaker 06

  You're both just so open and fearless and taking care of each other.

• 58:59Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:00Speaker 06

  Because it's like you're shooting stuff like that and it's like, it's tough. You're going to these hard places and you need to kind of take care of each other. And Jake was an amazing partner in that way. I mean, it was just really important. Everything Emmy said, it was just so important to show that character as a human being. I think it's so easy for people, especially nowadays, to make things black and white, to say, this is a bad person, this is a good person. And I never wanted the show to allow people to make those kind of calls. And also, people blame women for staying. People don't, or they don't understand why women stay in these relationships. And there's so many reasons why, economic reasons, emotional reasons. And the justice system, again, kind of like wants people to like very clearly say, this

• 59:45Speaker 06

  person did something wrong, this person is a victim, and these relationships are so complicated. Anyway, so I just, I think like Jake had, when I spoke to him before we cast him, he just understood that, you know? He just really understood that. And now I think he's like, can I please play a good guy? And, but no, I mean, it was, and Scoot is like.

• 1:00:08Speaker 07

  And Scoot's incredible.

• 1:00:09Speaker 06

  Incredible, yeah. He has like a, he's just so real. I don't know, like, I feel like he's like, he's just one of those actors that just like sits in it, lives it, you know? And like, he has this quiet, there's so much depth there. He has this quiet depth, which is so fun, because I don't, because you don't have to write a lot, you know? It's like his face says so much. He does great face acting, as they say, yeah.

• 1:00:35Speaker 07

  He's just got a deep well of empathy, too. And he walked that line between, right, neither of these men are perfect either. Scoot's character, Danny, has a difficult time loving Alice with the history that she has with the, that's not her fault. He can't, he wants to save her, she doesn't want to be saved, and he is having a difficult time holding her trauma. And I think that that isn't something I've seen before.

• 1:01:06Andy Greenwald?

  Yes.

• 1:01:07Speaker 07

  The effects, the aftershocks of years ago trauma on a woman's partner.

• 1:01:13Andy Greenwald?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01:14Speaker 07

  That, to me, is a fascinating dynamic.

• 1:01:16Speaker 06

  And also, his character came, I sat with a NYPD homicide detective, or former homicide detective for about an hour, named Mike Habert, and just, he, you think of a NYPD detective as like, you know, talking a lot, or I don't know, you know, like, I don't know, Dennis Franz, I don't know.

• 1:01:38Andy Greenwald?

  Cirque du Soleil or something, yeah.

• 1:01:40Speaker 06

  But like, he had this quiet, this quietness, and he's, he says, like, some of, I took some of the things he said, but like, my job is to listen, my job is to let people talk.

• 1:01:50Andy Greenwald?

  Or to see the worst things that no one should see is my job.

• 1:01:53Speaker 06

  And to, and to kind of like, hold that for people.

• 1:01:57Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Speaker 06

  And that, it was such an interesting, amazing conversation, because I was like, that character made sense to me then. It was like, okay, this is a man who like, does look at the worst thing and can sort of take it, he can take it, and he sits with it, and he, you know what I mean? So like, it was interesting to me that we think of law enforcement as like, action-packed, I think, because of some, a lot of TV shows. I mean, and again, I understand why things need to be action-packed.

• 1:02:27Andy Greenwald?

  Those are good shows.

• 1:02:28Speaker 06

  Yeah, those are great shows. But I do think there's a kind of like, they hold back because they want you to do the talking, they want you to reveal yourself, you know? I thought that was really interesting.

• 1:02:38Andy Greenwald?

  We're so bad at ambiguity. I just feel like culturally, these days, and so the whiskey waterboarding scene, I mean, there is so much history on screen in that moment, and so many crisscrossing wires of wants and needs, and who are we as the audience, who are we rooting for? Like, what do we, you know?

• 1:02:53Speaker 07

  And what games are we playing with each other?

• 1:02:54Andy Greenwald?

  Yes, and where's the line for that's okay to be, you can be a victim up to this point? I mean, that's kind of the show's thesis.

• 1:03:01Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 1:03:02Andy Greenwald?

  How do you guys then, as the creative leads of the show, hold, hold space for that throughout? You know, how do you get the directors who come on, the guest stars to come on, the writers in the writers' room, to understand that we are going to, it might be easier to lean one way or the other, but we are going to try to sit in this uncomfortable spot, because I think that's really the triumph of the season.

• 1:03:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, just to go back to the kind of femaleness of the show versus the fellas.

• 1:03:27Andy Greenwald?

  Okay, guys, we can take five.

• 1:03:29Speaker 06

  We're the fellas! Sorry.

• 1:03:36Andy Greenwald?

  Now, say more about that.

• 1:03:38Speaker 06

  No, I, that, I think what was kind of fun, and this does go into your question, what was fun sort of, and I set out from the beginning with all the designers who are incredible people, incredibly talented, was just, how do we look at, like, what does female violence look like, you know? And I think that waterboarding scene is an interesting example of, you kind of bring him close to you, and then you do it. And I think that Catherine does the same thing, like, that female violence, all the violence in the show is coming from a place of intimacy, is coming from a closeness, like, these aren't characters who are like, shooting at each other from far away.

• 1:04:18Speaker 06

  It's like, if you're gonna kill someone, it's gonna feel almost like, like, any kind of violence is gonna feel like a sex scene, you know, in a lot of ways. So that was like, something that we spoke a lot about, and just, the idea of like, the raw chicken and the.

• 1:04:35Speaker 07

  Curling iron.

• 1:04:36Speaker 06

  Curling iron, you know, like, these like, kind of female, like, cooking and tool, you know, like, that, and that was just a fun, that was just a fun kind of like, thing to say as our North Star a little bit in those meetings, and kind of think about, like, how do we go about this in a different way, in a, you know, quote unquote, female way?

• 1:04:55Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that even if you are, if you're lucky enough to be ignorant about some of the realities or lived experiences of trauma or trafficking and things, even understanding, or learning to understand that Catherine is using her body, but she is, she's using it as opposed to being used to get closer to people, is at first, you know, it's uncomfortable, it's surprising, and it's jarring, but you, the show continues to follow that path in a way that, at least in my mind, felt honest.

• 1:05:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:05:22Andy Greenwald?

  About experiences.

• 1:05:23Speaker 06

  Did I answer that question? Because I feel like I.

• 1:05:28Andy Greenwald?

  You did.

• 1:05:29Speaker 06

  You mean, like, how do we?

• 1:05:30Andy Greenwald?

  Do you want to run a pack?

• 1:05:31Speaker 06

  No, no.

• 1:05:32Andy Greenwald?

  Guys, we can take five.

• 1:05:33Speaker 07

  Talk more about the fellas.

• 1:05:34Andy Greenwald?

  It was cool hanging out with the guys, though, right? Sorry.

• 1:05:38Speaker 06

  God, guys, right? They're the best.

• 1:05:41Andy Greenwald?

  I mean, just, pretty cool hangs, uncomplicated. You guys watched the game last night? No, I, I think that, I think that you did. I think that because this is, I mean, even talking about, you guys were the captain of the ship, and so if this is what interested you, if this is how you wanted to see these familiar things subverted, expressed.

• 1:05:59Speaker 06

  Well, it's also interesting, because I'm in the season two writers' room, and I think like, our brains are so wired for female victimhood as a way of creating stakes in situations, and so.

• 1:06:11Andy Greenwald?

  Where can I put my, where can I put this empathy? Oh, I'll put it with her, because she's in a.

• 1:06:15Speaker 06

  Yes, and so I think it was like, I had to always check myself throughout of like, you know, are we, like, I don't ever want to feel too sorry for somebody, you know? I want to kind of like, keep all the characters tough and sort of spiky and like, I don't want sympathy, you know what I mean? Like, I don't want the characters to be like, people that feel sorry for them. So that was like, I did feel like I had to check myself, and I am checking myself a lot in the writers' room of like, that speech that Nora gives in the first episode about, everyone loves it when there's a little naked, not, I don't mean naked, but dead.

• 1:06:50Speaker 07

  Dead girl cut in pieces.

• 1:06:51Speaker 06

  Dead girl cut in pieces, yeah. Why did I put naked in there?

• 1:06:53Speaker 07

  I don't know, she's usually naked, too.

• 1:06:55Speaker 06

  I gotta think about that, yeah.

• 1:06:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, but in that finale, Ed's like, it was just one dead girl.

• 1:06:58Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:06:59Andy Greenwald?

  It's the inversion of that same thing.

• 1:07:01Speaker 06

  Yeah, I love that moment.

• 1:07:02Andy Greenwald?

  And his moral calculus.

• 1:07:03Speaker 07

  Takes my breath away.

• 1:07:04Speaker 06

  I didn't, I.

• 1:07:05Speaker 07

  And she was probably gonna die anyway.

• 1:07:06Speaker 06

  I had cut the part about peeing on him, because I was like, this is insane, I can't put this on the show.

• 1:07:12Speaker 07

  And it's raining, dude. I'm pissed at you, it's raining, you need an umbrella.

• 1:07:15Speaker 06

  And I told Corey Finley, who directed the finale, did such an incredible job, but I was like, we were laughing, and I was like, oh, you know, I'd actually put this thing about like, him peeing on him in there, and he was like, put it back in, he's like, what are you doing? And I was like, another North Star was kind of like, we never want to be exploitative of female pain and trauma for story purposes, like, it's like, and it's so easy to kind of fall into that trap, I think, because it's so, it's a part of our storytelling language.

• 1:07:46Andy Greenwald?

  It feels familiar.

• 1:07:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:07:48Andy Greenwald?

  As the audience, I'm sure, as people noting it, I'm sure even in a room, you could be like, well, at least that's taken care of before the other 100 problems pop up.

• 1:07:54Speaker 06

  Oh, you feel sorry for her, okay, great.

• 1:07:55Andy Greenwald?

  We got a feeling.

• 1:07:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, we got it, yeah, yeah.

• 1:07:57Andy Greenwald?

  We got a feeling back.

• 1:07:58Speaker 07

  We got a feeling.

• 1:07:59Speaker 06

  Feelings check. Let's go back to being fellas.

• 1:08:01Andy Greenwald?

  Come on.

• 1:08:03Andy Greenwald?

  Hey, guys.

• 1:08:03Speaker 06

  I'm sorry. Why am I attacking you? You're really nice to have me on.

• 1:08:08Andy Greenwald?

  No, no, I deserve it. It's fine. It's good for me.

• 1:08:11Speaker 06

  Am I furious?

• 1:08:12Andy Greenwald?

  I can't tell. All these women are mad at me. Okay, so Emmy, I'm gonna ask you this because I think Liz has a complicated relationship to this question. But what are you excited about for a season two of this show? And if you'd like to take notes, Liz, that's fine, too.

• 1:08:26Speaker 07

  No, I've texted Liz so many pitches, some of which gets thumbs up and some of which gets no response. And I can take a hint.

• 1:08:32Andy Greenwald?

  Some get left unread. Rough.

• 1:08:34Speaker 07

  I think she has her deliver messages off, so I'll never know.

• 1:08:38Andy Greenwald?

  That's good.

• 1:08:39Speaker 06

  I'm like Christopher Nolan. Someone has to print it out for me.

• 1:08:42Andy Greenwald?

  Fellas, did you get my emails?

• 1:08:44Speaker 07

  She's on a log. I'm excited for what Alice does with this big secret.

• 1:08:49Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:49Speaker 07

  Right? Some of her secrets have been exposed. And now, spoiler alert, she's killed someone.

• 1:08:56Andy Greenwald?

  Yep.

• 1:08:58Speaker 07

  And I think the way that Liz set that up in that last episode with the misdirect and how it's revealed in the last seconds, it's so powerful.

• 1:09:05Andy Greenwald?

  It's so well done.

• 1:09:05Speaker 07

  It's so fun.

• 1:09:06Andy Greenwald?

  It's the best kind of misdirect where it makes sense and you kind of knew, but you weren't sure.

• 1:09:10Speaker 07

  You're like, oh, that's kind of like, I guess he just died. I guess he did die peacefully in his bed. Okay, well, I guess that.

• 1:09:14Andy Greenwald?

  I guess they made that choice.

• 1:09:15Speaker 07

  I guess.

• 1:09:16Andy Greenwald?

  Feelings unchecked.

• 1:09:17Speaker 07

  Okay. But Alice is really good at burying things and really good at keeping secrets. So I'm really interested to see how that affects her. I'm interested to see kind of, you know, what happens with Danny now that he has been, you know, he's decided to step back. He doesn't want to look at things anymore, and her eyes are wide open.

• 1:09:41Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Speaker 07

  And Nora's like, you gotta look. I'm also obsessed with the interpersonal dynamics between Choi and Nora and Yara with the baby and Al.

• 1:09:53Andy Greenwald?

  What did he say? She had a baby? I don't know what it is.

• 1:09:55Speaker 07

  I don't know what it is. Got a lot of boredom.

• 1:09:57Speaker 06

  I had a whole head of hair.

• 1:09:58Speaker 07

  Whole head of hair, though.

• 1:09:59Speaker 06

  Oh, I love Robby.

• 1:10:01Speaker 07

  I really love Robby. He is so funny. And I am excited to, I'm just excited really for whatever Liz can cook up and any of my text messages that get thumbs up acknowledgements.

• 1:10:12Andy Greenwald?

  You'll feel good about that.

• 1:10:13Speaker 06

  If left to my own devices, it'll just be like an office comedy in the basement.

• 1:10:17Speaker 07

  Great.

• 1:10:17Speaker 06

  With her office.

• 1:10:19Andy Greenwald?

  But when he kneels down also, when Nora is hiding.

• 1:10:23Speaker 06

  It's my favorite.

• 1:10:25Speaker 07

  And she doesn't even have a shoelace. And he's like, oh, I thought you wanted to.

• 1:10:28Speaker 06

  Did you not want me to?

• 1:10:29Andy Greenwald?

  Are we down here doing this? He's willing to do anything.

• 1:10:31Speaker 06

  This just makes me so happy. Yeah, I mean, I'm so happy that we're doing another season. I want to say that.

• 1:10:39Andy Greenwald?

  Can I get another read on that line? One with tears.

• 1:10:42Speaker 06

  I'm so happy. No, I'm happy. I just like.

• 1:10:45Andy Greenwald?

  You're in this camera.

• 1:10:47Speaker 06

  Thank you, Hulu.

• 1:10:49Andy Greenwald?

  For your consideration, Liz Meriwether.

• 1:10:52Speaker 06

  Obviously, we're so lucky to get another season. It's just, it's hard. I've been doing limited, I did, you know, two limited series before this. And I remember the experience of New Girl. I remember the kind of like excitement of the first season. And then you're like, you're like, okay, we gotta keep doing it. And it's, you know, it's just like, there's, I just never want to like let people down. And it's just kind of like trying to, but I think whenever I go to my deepest, darkest, most anxious places, I come back thinking about the characters because I love these characters. I love Alice. I love Nora. I love Danny. I love the whole world of it. And so I just get excited to be like, well, what are they up to? Like, what are those crazy cats up to?

• 1:11:36Speaker 06

  And kind of like, that calms me down when I, when I get really nervous.

• 1:11:40Speaker 07

  But I think that's what's so special about Liz's work is because it always starts from character. Interest in psychology, interest in dynamics. It never starts from, here's a cool thing that could happen, right? Plot comes from character, characters' choices. And that's why I think it feels so able to, you're able to understand all the choices people make. You're like, you're never like, oh, well, that would, that person would never do that because it's built from that. And that's why I think Liz's work is really hitting and appealing to the actors, too, and why we feel like we can go so deep within it.

• 1:12:13Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, I think that also it's just you've done both now. And you, you know, the first season is what it is. And you can't, I think it's almost like fool's gold to try to chase. There's another case that Alice is also a victim in, Anne Hunting. And it's all, you know, you've done that. And so now what is next for it, right? Like, it becomes a different show. And maybe that's a good thing.

• 1:12:33Speaker 06

  I had an interviewer last night because we did an event.

• 1:12:37Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:38Speaker 06

  And he was like, I really felt like he was the voice in my head. Like, he was like, you must feel a lot of pressure.

• 1:12:43Andy Greenwald?

  No, he did not.

• 1:12:46Speaker 06

  I was like, please stop talking, sir.

• 1:12:48Andy Greenwald?

  That's fun.

• 1:12:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. No, I mean, I, I don't, I, you know, fortunately and unfortunately, there are a lot of areas we can go into about, you know, sex crimes, trafficking, violence against women. So, you know, that's another thing that kind of keeps me going is that there's so many stories that need to be told. And yeah, I don't know. Tune in. Do people still say that? Because it's like on the computer now?

• 1:13:18Andy Greenwald?

  Yeah, they say it.

• 1:13:19Speaker 06

  Okay. You're not like adjusting your TV antenna.

• 1:13:22Andy Greenwald?

  Maybe someone is. I think that's okay. I just love it. You're the new Dick Wolf. You're just the, you're just the king of your crime shows.

• 1:13:29Speaker 06

  I really, I do. I said this to you before the podcast. But it's like, there are definitely moments where I'm like, how did I get myself in a situation where I'm writing multiple seasons of a crime show? Like, I just, like, as I said, I would be so happy to write the office comedy version of this show. Just like Nora running upstairs.

• 1:13:49Andy Greenwald?

  You're gonna have to send more texts, I think.

• 1:13:52Speaker 06

  I know. I think I actually need more texts from you.

• 1:13:54Speaker 07

  Okay, I'm happy to.

• 1:13:55Andy Greenwald?

  Guys, thank you so much.

• 1:13:56Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 1:13:57Andy Greenwald?

  It's a pleasure to see you both again and talk to you. And really, the show is an incredible achievement.

• 1:14:01Speaker 07

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:02Andy Greenwald?

  Thanks for sharing it with us.

• 1:14:03Speaker 07

  Thank you.

• 1:14:03Speaker 06

  Thank you so much.

• 1:14:04Andy Greenwald?

  Come back for season two. I can't wait to see. I'm excited. You're gonna be great. I'm excited.

• 1:14:08Speaker 07

  There's gonna be lots of snacks jokes. I know that.

• 1:14:11Speaker 06

  Just cheese balls.

• 1:14:12Speaker 07

  Yeah, lots of snacks jokes, lots of Doritos jokes. When in doubt, let's throw some eating into a scene. We always do, and that'll be great.

• 1:14:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, and maybe some fellas. I don't know.

• 1:14:20Speaker 07

  Maybe some fellas. Let's get the fellas in there.

• 1:14:22Andy Greenwald?

  I don't want to lean too hard on that, but I do think there's some opportunity there.

• 1:14:24Speaker 07

  We could do some more fellas and some more snacks.

• 1:14:26Andy Greenwald?

  Like, what are these ladies so furious about? Huh? That guy. That guy's gonna kill. Just light pitch that character now. We cut five minutes ago, right? Thanks.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu is now streaming on Disney+.

• 1:14:52Speaker 02

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• 1:14:54Speaker 01

  The must-see galactic adventure comes home on Disney+.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  This is the way. Our only chance is to work together. I love this kid. Always wear your seatbelt.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Star Wars: The Mandalorian and Grogu now streaming on Disney+. Rated PG-13.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

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