Pod Insights What Now? with Trevor Noah If I Ruled the World: Tressie McMillan Cottom Throws Down About this episode For this round of If I Ruled the World, Trevor and Christiana and joined by friend-of-the-show Tressie McMillan Cottom. They’re trying to find ways to connect people and limit societal rot; one quarterly report, character count, and service job at a time.
Transcript 12,156 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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2:31 Speaker 01 I think he's gonna run for office in South Africa.
2:33 Speaker 02 Okay, can I tell you? I told him that the first time I met him.
2:37 Speaker 01 Trevor's gonna be president of South Africa.
2:39 Speaker 02 You won't remember this, but I said, so what? You're gonna go home and run for office?
2:41 Speaker 01 No, no, no, no.
2:41 Speaker 02 And you went, what?
2:43 Speaker 01 He's gonna be president of South Africa. Zelensky used to be a comedian.
2:47 Speaker 02 I...
2:48 Trevor Noah? Yes, and look at his life now.
2:50 Speaker 01 Only...
2:51 Trevor Noah? Look at his life now.
2:52 Speaker 02 Maybe not a good example.
2:59 Trevor Noah? This is What Now? with Trevor Noah.
3:11 Trevor Noah? Well, all right. You ready to play some If I Ruled the World?
3:13 Speaker 02 I'm ready.
3:14 Trevor Noah? All right, let's do it. This is one of my favorite games to play with people. And there are a few people in the world who are more my favorite than Tracy McMillan-Cartney.
3:24 Speaker 01 Tracy, Tracy, Tracy.
3:25 Trevor Noah? I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why. So what I love about playing the game If I Ruled the World is oftentimes, we think about the world in a gradual way. And I think sometimes as people, we get bogged down in what we perceive possibility to be.
3:38 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah.
3:38 Trevor Noah? Right? And so I love playing the game for myself and for other people because I think it's good to remind ourselves that everything is possible if you don't think that it's impossible and you cannot even get to it if you think it's not. Does that make sense?
3:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:51 Trevor Noah? So it's impossible to fly. But someone goes like, but maybe it isn't. And then one day, you're flying, right? So we don't know. And not everything is possible, but everything's impossible if you don't try to get there. So If I Ruled the World is a very simple game that we play. Everyone gets a chance to say what they would do if they ruled the world. And what I mean rule the world, don't get bogged down. Don't worry about bureaucracy. Don't worry about like, people coming after you, not coming after you. Don't worry about voting. Everyone develops amnesia.
4:17 Speaker 02 They're gonna love you.
4:18 Trevor Noah? No, they develop amnesia.
4:19 Speaker 02 Okay.
4:19 Trevor Noah? So they won't go, but it used to be like this. No, it is not like that.
4:22 Speaker 02 Okay.
4:23 Trevor Noah? Right? Your goal is to get the other two people on this podcast.
4:27 Speaker 01 To vote for you.
4:28 Trevor Noah? To vote for you.
4:29 Speaker 02 I didn't know it was a competition part.
4:31 Trevor Noah? It's not a competition.
4:32 Speaker 02 Well, yes, it is.
4:35 Speaker 02 There's voting involved.
4:36 Trevor Noah? It's not a competition.
4:37 Speaker 02 Okay.
4:38 Trevor Noah? It's not a competition.
4:38 Speaker 01 We, you have to vote.
4:39 Trevor Noah? It's not a competition.
4:40 Speaker 01 Just to see the merits of the idea.
4:41 Trevor Noah? Yes.
4:43 Speaker 01 Trevor's ideas rarely win. So don't feel, don't like feel like.
4:47 Trevor Noah? They've never won.
4:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:48 Trevor Noah? No, not rarely win.
4:49 Speaker 01 We've won the one.
4:50 Trevor Noah? No, no, no, they've never won. I don't think they've ever won.
4:52 Speaker 01 No?
4:52 Trevor Noah? I don't mind that.
4:53 Speaker 01 I think Josh, Josh, I've had an idea win, Josh.
4:55 Trevor Noah? Yeah, you've won. Yeah, yeah, you've won.
4:56 Speaker 01 Ben made us do, have a day off.
4:58 Trevor Noah? Yeah, Ben, we, we went with, but I think Josh hasn't won either.
5:01 Speaker 02 I'm surprised by that.
5:03 Trevor Noah? It's not about winning. Josh has some ideas.
5:05 Speaker 01 Stuff he's never tried. Once he was like.
5:07 Trevor Noah? You love Josh.
5:07 Speaker 01 Everyone do shrooms. We're like, Josh, have you done shrooms? No?
5:10 Speaker 02 He's so cute.
5:10 Trevor Noah? Yes. Josh has some.
5:11 Speaker 02 He's so cute.
5:12 Trevor Noah? Josh has some crazy ones where you're like, wait, Josh, what? Like, what was Josh, one of Josh's last ones was, he thinks that in your like sentencing or in how you get punished in society, pettiness should be exempt.
5:26 Speaker 01 No, petty is power.
5:27 Trevor Noah? No, no, but yeah.
5:27 Speaker 01 The prettier you are.
5:28 Trevor Noah? No, it was like, pettiness should be exempt essentially. So he said like, for instance, if you committed a crime or did something to someone, but it was because of pettiness, you shouldn't be punished.
5:36 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:36 Speaker 02 Okay, your pettiness pass.
5:38 Trevor Noah? It's like, yeah.
5:39 Speaker 01 Trevor told us not to be polite. He was like, let's get rid of customer service. Was it politeness?
5:43 Trevor Noah? I don't think I would have said that.
5:44 Speaker 01 It was something along those lines, was it?
5:45 Trevor Noah? No, I think my, oh, I think mine was, I said like, your, your, your aptitude should not be measured by your affable nature.
5:52 Speaker 01 Yeah, that was.
5:53 Trevor Noah? That's what I was saying. I was like, people should not go, you are a good president because you can speak well or because you're, no.
5:58 Speaker 02 Oh, no, I agree with you on that.
6:00 Trevor Noah? People should not say you're a good waiter or waitress because you are, you are nice to the people. Customer service, just do the thing. Don't even ask me how my day is, is what I was saying.
6:08 Speaker 01 And I was like, I want, how was your day?
6:10 Trevor Noah? British people.
6:11 Speaker 01 Because I don't get that in England.
6:12 Trevor Noah? Yeah. This is, this is, this is what she, she came here with her traumatized.
6:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, and they're all, and they're like, Americans are so nice. And I'm like, yeah, I know where you're from.
6:22 Trevor Noah? She was willing to trade incompetence for being nice. So, that's how the game works.
6:28 Speaker 02 Okay.
6:28 Trevor Noah? We'll go in it, we discuss it, you know, as, as much, and people will challenge you and you tell us why you think it's good. Remember, you state your case, you tell us why you think this will work. We ask a few questions and then we vote.
6:39 Speaker 02 Okay.
6:40 Trevor Noah? You know, as I say, it's not about winning. Even though Christiana has won, it's just about, you know.
6:45 Speaker 01 Taking part.
6:46 Speaker 02 Have I ever mentioned my competitive nature? I'm not proud of it.
6:48 Speaker 01 I mean, you're MacArthur, genius, New York Times.
6:52 Trevor Noah? Yeah, we've never played this game with a genius.
6:54 Speaker 01 Sociologist, we kinda, we gleaned it.
6:57 Trevor Noah? Okay, alright, so how do we wanna start? Who wants to start?
7:00 Speaker 01 Well, ladies first and guests first.
7:02 Trevor Noah? Okay. Whoa, going Tracy first?
7:04 Speaker 01 Oh, no, I'll go first.
7:05 Trevor Noah? You go first, you go first, you go first, alright.
7:07 Speaker 01 Alright, so if I ruled the world in my crypto fascist state, I would put a restriction on the amount a person is allowed to contribute to the public discourse in text. So you have a limited amount of words.
7:22 Speaker 02 Shots fired.
7:23 Speaker 01 Per month, you can contribute to the, and it doesn't matter the platform.
7:26 Trevor Noah? Every time I think I know how crazy Christiana is, this woman surprises me.
7:30 Speaker 01 I have thought this through, guys.
7:31 Trevor Noah? Keep going, okay.
7:32 Speaker 01 We need to put, so there's freedom of speech in the real world, but when it comes to freedom of text, there is restriction.
7:40 Speaker 02 Freedom of text?
7:41 Speaker 01 There is not freedom of text.
7:42 Speaker 02 This curve out, freedom of text, that's interesting.
7:45 Trevor Noah? This is interesting, so I, okay.
7:47 Speaker 01 Remember, the white man said the pen is mightier than the sword.
7:49 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay, fine. And that guy was stabbed by the sword afterwards. But, okay, let's, okay, I have a question, but I mean, please.
7:56 Speaker 02 Okay, how are you going to, because arguably, everything now is text, right? This is one of the things. How are, is there any ranking or sorting for like, what one contributes with the text?
8:09 Speaker 01 I don't care about the.
8:10 Speaker 02 I ask out of obvious personal interest.
8:13 Speaker 01 You could be a MacArthur-winged sociologist.
8:16 Speaker 02 I was wondering if that's what you meant.
8:17 Speaker 01 You could be a sociologist. You could be a comedian.
8:21 Speaker 02 So everybody has the same amount of words?
8:23 Speaker 01 See, because I am also a socialist, so I believe in equality. And I'm a communist, so it's free. I'm not charging you for the number of words.
8:31 Trevor Noah? This is wild.
8:32 Speaker 01 However, there is a restriction, there is a limit. There is a limit on the amount you can contribute to the public discourse.
8:38 Trevor Noah? Maybe to Tracy's question in a way. Like, is it like an actual limit of like an amount of words?
8:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, words.
8:45 Trevor Noah? Okay, so actual words, we count, so and counts the same as like the word compulsion?
8:48 Speaker 02 Oh, also getting at my, yeah, see, I try to say a lot in a little, but you're saying.
8:54 Trevor Noah? Okay.
8:54 Speaker 01 What, and the great thing is, it'll make you pithier.
8:57 Trevor Noah? Okay, so it's word count?
8:58 Speaker 01 It's word count.
8:59 Trevor Noah? Okay, so you're, you're basically putting a word count.
9:00 Speaker 01 Because you know, I, I believe men shouldn't say more than four hundred words a day.
9:04 Speaker 02 Again, fair enough, and.
9:07 Speaker 01 Why is a man saying?
9:08 Speaker 02 And let me tell you.
9:09 Speaker 01 My husband starts about thirty fifty, I try to talk more, and he's like.
9:13 Speaker 02 No, I'm good.
9:14 Speaker 01 My husband, he don't wanna say, that's it. Yeah, yeah, he don't wanna say more, and he's like, why am I, why should I talk, there's nothing to say.
9:19 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay.
9:19 Speaker 01 Um, but, yeah.
9:20 Trevor Noah? So that, so that's the limit?
9:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:22 Trevor Noah? And then, what happens if you go above that?
9:25 Speaker 02 Yeah.
9:25 Trevor Noah? You just can't?
9:26 Speaker 01 Fine.
9:26 Speaker 02 A fine?
9:27 Trevor Noah? A fine?
9:27 Speaker 02 Well, okay, now, see, that can become a tax, though.
9:30 Speaker 01 No, no, it's a fine weighted to your income, because, let me tell you this story I heard about Donatella Versace. She was smoking under a no smoking sign, and they said, Miss Versace, you can't smoke there. And she said, just tell me what the fine is.
9:41 Speaker 02 That's right.
9:41 Speaker 01 Oh, the fine has to be weighted to your income.
9:44 Speaker 02 That's right, because in economics, there's this idea that some people's fine is just a tax, not just paid.
9:49 Speaker 01 So it's punitive, so I don't believe in a carceral state, so I'm not gonna throw you in prison. But what I'm gonna say.
9:53 Speaker 02 See, yours gets complicated because of that abolition thing.
9:56 Speaker 01 Right. Well, now I kinda do believe in prison, but that's.
10:01 Trevor Noah? Okay, so, so you get fined, and it's, it's a proportion of your net worth?
10:05 Speaker 01 It's, it's weighted to.
10:06 Trevor Noah? Yeah, it's weighted to how much you, okay, okay, all right, okay. Um, another question I have, it, oh, man.
10:13 Speaker 01 It doesn't compel you to contribute to the public discourse, right?
10:16 Trevor Noah? No, I understand.
10:17 Speaker 02 Is it, and it's cumulative, it's like life course, like, I start out with a bucket of words?
10:22 Speaker 01 Say, in the, in your month, you get like eight hundred words, or whatever.
10:26 Speaker 02 Okay, so it is weighted to like your lifespan, but it's not cumulative?
10:29 Trevor Noah? So it doesn't accumulate over time?
10:30 Speaker 01 No, it resets.
10:31 Speaker 02 I can't save all mine up?
10:32 Speaker 01 It resets at the beginning of every month.
10:33 Trevor Noah? So there's no books?
10:34 Speaker 01 Uh, no, I'm talking about the public disc, I'm talking about online, in terms of.
10:38 Trevor Noah? Oh, okay, you're saying only online?
10:40 Speaker 01 Online, I'm talking about, oh, because I, and I'm gonna give you the thinking behind this.
10:44 Trevor Noah? Yes.
10:44 Speaker 01 We are, big political events of the last ten years have been heavily shaped and manipulated by online behavior.
10:52 Speaker 02 I agree.
10:53 Speaker 01 For good or for bad, it's been online.
10:55 Speaker 02 I agree.
10:55 Speaker 01 And some people have had an outsized influence on it, whereas some other people haven't, and it's been these fringes. So I just think, cap it.
11:04 Speaker 02 The podcast bros are gonna come for you?
11:07 Speaker 01 Well, they'll just be on the mic more, they'll speak more.
11:09 Speaker 02 Do you see the perverse incentives there?
11:12 Trevor Noah? Hi.
11:13 Speaker 02 So now the men will go from writing a whole bunch of words and throwing them at me to speaking them at me.
11:18 Speaker 01 They already have the mics, so.
11:20 Speaker 02 Well, that's what we should be going after, the mics.
11:23 Trevor Noah? Yeah, I'm gonna, this is a no for me because I don't think you're solving the issue you're trying to solve. So, understanding how a lot of the social discourse has been shaped in America and around the world, I think is very important for people. We really saw this around Black Lives Matter.
11:37 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
11:38 Trevor Noah? Right? Most people still do not know that most of the memes and the tweets and the posts that they saw came from Russia. Right? Now, I'm not saying this as like a Hillary and the Russia, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just saying on like a very simple level, they found a lever that they could pull. In the same way, North Korea has focused on hacking crypto.
11:59 Speaker 02 Yes.
12:00 Trevor Noah? Like, North Korea, I don't, most people don't even like know this. North Korea has gone on like a very concerted mission to hack crypto wallets around the world.
12:07 Speaker 02 That's right, yeah.
12:08 Trevor Noah? And they've gone, oh, this money's untraceable, but it's usable everywhere and it's really powerful. And when you steal it, no one can come after you.
12:15 Speaker 02 That's right.
12:15 Trevor Noah? So, North Korea's gone out, they steal tons of crypto everywhere in the world. And no one can like do anything about it because you can't like really prove it's them and it's, and they can use it. You can't like stop them, okay? The same thing happened in and around social media. There were all these farms that were produced in and around Russia and even like parts of Ukraine, if my memory serves me correctly, right? And like basically what they did was, they just came after Americans and they did it as simply as this. Every issue, they created a meme or a post, a binary, both ways. And they just shot them out. They just shot them out. Here's why the police are coming after you. Here's why they're trying to kill the police. Here's why black people are the worst thing. Here's why black people are the best thing. That's all they did. They diagnosed an issue correctly, by the way.
13:01 Trevor Noah? But then they really inflamed the tension. So the issue I worry about on your side is you may stop people who maybe post a lot or write a lot online. But then they will create a world of people who gets to like sort of out speak them. Because how are you shutting them down? Like they'll even like, I can even just think of a simple one. Elon could just buy people to say his thing.
13:27 Speaker 02 Which is what he has effectively done. That's what I was gonna say. This is like a, this is more the Twitterization of everything.
13:32 Speaker 01 Oh, that's a, that's a good point.
13:33 Speaker 02 So we saw this arc with Twitter, to your point, because that's what Elon knew or figured out or saw happen with Twitter. He realized that there was a real moment, people kind of forget this moment, it was a real moment of fear, governments across this country when the Arab Spring happened. That yes, somehow social media had shifted the balance of power towards a democratization of voices who could influence people's beliefs. And immediately, there was a technological solution to that. Who said, no problem, we will just make 50 trillion bots, right? Train on our behavior, because text is easily manipulated to make it sound like a person. This is what you see.
14:09 Speaker 01 Well, I, I, these are good points, but I believe I could create, not myself, but hire someone to create the technology to eliminate bots.
14:18 Trevor Noah? No, no, but let's say no bots. I'm saying they would buy people. So what I'm saying is you could easily then say, okay, as Trevor, I've finished my 800 word count, but I want to like wait the election. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna pay, hey, have you used your 800 count? Thank you, I'll take that. And actually, here, just post this.
14:35 Speaker 02 That's right.
14:36 Trevor Noah? In fact, have you seen some of the more interesting music campaigns that are being run now? So music used to be a very different game in that like, the way you would get an artist to blow up was really defined by the labels for the most part. They told a radio station, play this person. We'll give you the resources, play this person. And that's how you became a star. Things started changing with streaming, with social media, with all of that, because now you couldn't, labels couldn't dictate it the same way. But they have found something that's been really effective now, and that is, and I think Drake did this for his latest album. It's pretty brilliant. They've gone out to everyone online, not just like quote unquote influencers. They got, you, you, you join this platform, I forget the name of the platform, and
15:20 Trevor Noah? Essentially, it sells the services of just the people online. And what happens is, I can come on there and say, as Trevor, I have a campaign that I want to launch. I have ten thousand dollars. And I pay it to the service. The service then goes out to everyone who signed up to it, who's just a regular person online. And says to them.
15:40 Speaker 02 Play the song.
15:41 Trevor Noah? Find a way to play the song, find a way to make this campaign go viral. And we pay you per view. So you you don't pay people who failed. It's not like putting up a billboard on the highway and hoping people respond. No. You now go, oh, wow, that was an amazing dance Christiana did. She got two million views on that. We now pay her for the two million views. And then Tracy did something, it didn't catch on, so we don't really pay her for that. And so you are paying for performance. But what it does, though, is it creates a false idea of what trends are.
16:10 Speaker 02 Popular, that's right.
16:11 Trevor Noah? Because now you've paid people to make a trend, and because everyone's trying to chase the money. They then, it makes it seem like there's a trend when there is no trend. And so I'm saying people could pay.
16:21 Speaker 01 Can I put an addendum?
16:23 Speaker 02 What I love about the music example, I just want to say this. They borrowed that from politics.
16:28 Trevor Noah? I did not know that.
16:30 Speaker 02 The political influencer model. Starting under Barack Obama, it started to mature later, was exactly that. Make this go viral, make this candidate seem inevitable. Trump just did it better and at scale. He seems inevitable with a minority of the voters. Because he uses audience influencers. To who, this is wonderful piece, I think in the New York Times like a week ago about this sort of like hidden influencer. Economy of of politics. And how Trump is like just bypassing the media altogether and going straight to this. And it is embedded in the White House, the White House press machine. This has gone mainstream. Music was actually late. We did this in politics already.
17:11 Speaker 01 Okay, so I have an addendum.
17:13 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:13 Trevor Noah? Okay.
17:14 Speaker 01 If you are found to be buying somebody's text.
17:17 Speaker 02 Okay.
17:17 Speaker 01 Or if you accept payment for it, prison.
17:21 Speaker 02 Okay, so you did put prison back on the table.
17:23 Trevor Noah? Prison's back on the table.
17:24 Speaker 02 See, see how fast that happens, by the way?
17:27 Speaker 01 Yeah, I know, it's so sad.
17:31 Speaker 01 I was like, what I was gonna do, can I make a bigger fine?
17:33 Speaker 02 I got this excellent plan, but yeah.
17:35 Trevor Noah? Okay, so if people buy other people's-
17:37 Speaker 01 No, I'm just about basically creating disincentives-
17:40 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:40 Speaker 01 For purchasing somebody's vote, just in the same way like in a lot of countries, there is a cap on how much you can donate, you can spend-
17:48 Trevor Noah? Yeah.
17:48 Speaker 01 Or you can actually spend on a political campaign.
17:50 Trevor Noah? Yes.
17:51 Speaker 01 Right, so then it just means that like their big money in politics doesn't happen.
17:55 Trevor Noah? Okay, and just remind me one more time, the reason you're doing this is because?
17:59 Speaker 01 Um, I think people talk too much online, myself included.
18:02 Trevor Noah? Okay.
18:02 Speaker 01 I think that some people contribute to the discourse more than they should, and I think it's like, it gets you out there to go and talk to people in real life.
18:09 Trevor Noah? Okay, I'm ready to vote. Tracy, are you ready to vote?
18:12 Speaker 02 I am ready to vote.
18:13 Trevor Noah? Okay. Your vote is?
18:15 Speaker 02 Oh.
18:16 Speaker 01 That's fine.
18:17 Speaker 02 I was gonna go with the consensus.
18:18 Speaker 01 No, no, no.
18:19 Speaker 02 No, okay, this is back to my accurate diagnosis, but right? I agree wholeheartedly with Trina, because what you're essentially saying, you wanna take the attention economy out of the discourse, because it's ruined it. I am there 150%. I think you gotta go straight to jail, because I think if you got any middle ground, people are gonna game it, so based on that, I'm gonna vote no.
18:41 Speaker 01 Okay.
18:43 Trevor Noah? Okay.
18:43 Speaker 01 Trev is voting no, I already know that.
18:44 Trevor Noah? I'm definitely voting no.
18:46 Speaker 02 And I'm so self-interested, I'm one of those people with a lot of the words-
18:50 Trevor Noah? Yeah, you lost Tracy, as soon as you said words-
18:52 Speaker 02 I'm gonna tell you.
18:53 Trevor Noah? When you said words, I was like, wow.
18:55 Speaker 01 Tracy's like, you're coming for my chat?
18:56 Speaker 02 Yes!
18:57 Trevor Noah? You said words, so the, okay-
18:58 Speaker 01 Tracy, you're not even on Twitter anymore.
19:00 Speaker 02 That's true.
19:01 Trevor Noah? No, but okay-
19:01 Speaker 01 Tracy does lives more.
19:02 Trevor Noah? Yes, but okay, let me explain why I'm voting no, though, just so, so the reason I'm voting no is because, really, because I'm sat across from somebody who I consider one of the greatest luminaries in this space.
19:16 Trevor Noah? I don't think that it's fair that us idiots can say more than people like that.
19:23 Speaker 01 Oh, so that's why I disagree.
19:24 Trevor Noah? No, no, no, I mean this honestly, I mean this honestly. So I think sometimes the numbers shouldn't always be right, because numbers are dangerous, like mobs are numbers, but mobs are not necessarily right.
19:34 Speaker 01 My issue is that the experts, like Tressie, are actually receding from the public discourse. I have lots of friends who are authors.
19:42 Trevor Noah? No, I, I, please don't get me wrong.
19:43 Speaker 01 The idiots are the ones who are the loudest voices right now.
19:46 Trevor Noah? I'm with you completely, and that's why I say to you.
19:48 Speaker 01 And it may bring the Tressie back to the internet, to the public square.
19:53 Trevor Noah? Completely with you. I always say this to you with love and understanding. I vote no, not because I disagree with what you've identified, but because I don't believe that this is the right way for us to solve it. And so my vote is also gonna be a no.
20:09 Speaker 01 Accept it. These were actually good notes.
20:11 Speaker 02 Your next plan is coming hard, is what you're saying.
20:13 Speaker 01 I'm gonna refine it, but these were the notes. I didn't, I didn't spot, you know.
20:16 Speaker 02 So taxing the microphones again. I'm gonna put that back on the table for you to consider.
20:21 Speaker 01 You know what, I, so I'm different. I kinda like the podcast, but I don't like their content, but they just give us insight into the male psyche that I would otherwise never have.
20:30 Trevor Noah? Oh, I like that. It's a nice way to look at it.
20:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're just like, oh, this is how men really think, because men don't really talk in that way.
20:37 Speaker 02 But don't they though?
20:37 Speaker 01 I avoid them. So I don't, it's too many because I avoid them.
20:41 Trevor Noah? Okay, all right. Let me be the man who then talks.
20:44 Speaker 02 Okay.
20:44 Trevor Noah? I will give you a little insight into my world. We're gonna continue this conversation right after this short break.
20:53 Trevor Noah? Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house, because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now. But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K and suddenly everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads.
21:34 Trevor Noah? You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going. So if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. This segment is brought to you by Google Pixel. Every day, it feels like I'm on a new scavenger hunt, but not the fun kind.
22:17 Trevor Noah? I'm constantly switching between countless apps just to try and find the information that I need. Like the other day, I was trying to find the address of a restaurant someone had sent me. Simple enough, right? But then, this is what happened. I opened my messages. I saw a video somebody sent me of a parrot singing opera. And then, the next thing I know, I'm watching an interview with a woman who trains parrots. 20 minutes later, I know the average lifespan of a macaw. I've forgotten where I'm supposed to have dinner, and I'm wondering whether I have what it takes to raise a bird that might outlive me. Enough with digital rabbit holes. Thankfully, my Google Pixel 11 is designed with Gemini Intelligence. Helpful suggestions pop up right in the text thread when I'm making plans,
22:58 Trevor Noah? proactively pulling up restaurant details, calendar availability, or live flight info. The info you need, right when you need it. Learn more about what the Google Pixel 11 can do at googlestore.com. These AI features are available in select countries and languages. For users 18 and older, make sure to check responses. Earth can be a lot sometimes. Heat waves, gas prices, bad hair days. Why not go where life is good? Escape to Pluto TV. Turn off your problems and turn on your favorite movies and shows. You know, the ones you already love. From Anchorman, the legend of Ron Burgundy, to Dirty Dancing, to Top Gun Maverick. From Alias to The X-Files.
23:43 Trevor Noah? It's all here and all free. Go where the TV is always good. Escape to Pluto TV. Stream now, pay never.
23:59 Trevor Noah? All right.
24:01 Trevor Noah? Okay, if I ruled the world, I would abolish quarterly earnings that companies report on. And I would probably extend it even further than like, companies wouldn't be able to report on their earnings for like, maybe like a few years, actually. Like, no, no reporting at all from any company. They wouldn't be, they'd just be like, we just run, run, run, run, run, run.
24:23 Speaker 01 Like, the S P five hundred, we wouldn't know what's going on with those companies.
24:27 Trevor Noah? No, you wouldn't know their earnings. Like, so you know, like, right now, it's quarterly. Quarterly earnings report.
24:31 Speaker 02 Yeah, like, yeah.
24:32 Trevor Noah? It's gone.
24:32 Speaker 02 Chrysler made, three hundred billion.
24:33 Trevor Noah? No more quarterly earnings. And I would even extend it to maybe like, two to three years, maybe. Like, every three years, they could report their earnings, right?
24:42 Speaker 01 Okay.
24:42 Trevor Noah? And I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.
24:46 Trevor Noah? In my mind, I think we can draw a direct line between quarterly earnings and the destruction of most things society has held near and dear.
24:59 Speaker 02 Oh, yeah, I'm with you on that.
25:00 Trevor Noah? I think the shitification of everything, as I call it,
25:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
25:05 Trevor Noah? I greatly attribute to quarterly earnings because the quarterly earnings has made it so that every C E O of every major company has to make sure that the reporting that they do four times a year shows that the company's making more money and is more profitable. Four times a year, you have to do this. And because you have to do this, and because it affects the share price and your job as a CEO, your incentive is now to make sure that every quarter your company makes more money than it made in the previous quarter, or the money is going up versus looking at the long-term prospects of the company, the employees, and the thing that you're actually trying to do in the world.
25:48 Trevor Noah? And so when I look at every service, I I am yet to find a company that became a better version of itself once it went public.
25:58 Speaker 02 Oh, strong agree.
25:59 Trevor Noah? Right? I genuinely have yet to see an example of that.
26:02 Speaker 01 Then why don't you ban IPOs?
26:03 Trevor Noah? So I thought about this. I thought about this. I thought about like, why not ban publicly listing and all this thing? So I do think from the little, because I went and asked some of the people who work in Wall Street and all of this, and they said, there is a major advancement that we should never take for granted that came from allowing people to collectively come in to build something even though they weren't there. Right? So I can see the value in that. And I can understand it. And I was like, you know what I mean? Because I don't want to just be like, ah, ban all, you know, IPOs and ban, you know, some people would say that, ban it all. I can see why. I wouldn't be against banning it, but I think there would be a second system effect that I can't predict right now. So what I would say is I would just ban the reporting of how much money people have made.
26:47 Speaker 01 People are gonna steal so much money. I would steal money.
26:54 Trevor Noah? I have to do everything in my power to not say anything.
26:56 Speaker 01 He's gonna say something about Nigerians.
26:58 Trevor Noah? I didn't say it.
26:59 Speaker 01 He's gonna say something about Nigerians.
27:01 Trevor Noah? I didn't say anything.
27:02 Speaker 02 Each of you right now is amazing.
27:04 Trevor Noah? I didn't, I didn't want to say anything.
27:07 Speaker 01 He wants to say something about Nigerians.
27:10 Speaker 02 Was, I could see why I could get some money out of that.
27:13 Trevor Noah? Your first thought, Christiana, was that. I am not gonna say anything.
27:16 Speaker 01 On an accounting level, if we look at like Enron, all of that stuff.
27:21 Trevor Noah? Okay.
27:22 Speaker 01 The lack of public accountability that's transparent may take us to a place that is quite dangerous, right? And now, as much as I am a socialist, I am a socialist that has quite a bit of money in the market.
27:38 Trevor Noah? There comes the champagne with the socialism.
27:41 Speaker 01 Listen, I've got three kids, they've got these 529 accounts.
27:45 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay, okay.
27:46 Speaker 01 They're playing with the money. I wanna know whether I should be holding, or whether I should be letting things go.
27:51 Trevor Noah? Okay.
27:52 Speaker 01 And I think unfortunately because of the way this country is set up, the West now, before your house used to be the thing, you could just have a house.
27:58 Trevor Noah? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
27:59 Speaker 01 And you know you are okay. They have forced us to put our money in the market.
28:03 Trevor Noah? Everything's asset, the asset economy.
28:04 Speaker 01 And most of us would like to know what's happening to it every quarter, and I don't think that's a ridiculous thing.
28:12 Trevor Noah? I think the downside of you knowing is, is worse for the general public. So, so here's what I, I understand what you're saying, and I still say, remember, there's still ramifications in my world. So if people are corrupt and all that, we will still catch them, they will just be caught later, they're still left to report. Yeah, so he's saying it would be every two. But your money's gonna be gone regardless. That's what I'm saying. So I'm saying, I understand, I understand the, the, the guardrails you're trying to put in place.
28:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:40 Trevor Noah? But I'm saying, if we look at, I believe most companies are not run corruptly, most CEOs are not stealing the money, most, most, most. I always go with that. I, you know me, I believe in general good.
28:49 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:50 Trevor Noah? So I think the risk that we're willing to take for a few, because we will punish them severely when they are found.
28:56 Speaker 01 Okay.
28:56 Trevor Noah? Do you get what I'm saying? So the company will no longer exist, the people will never be allowed to work in another company. Oh, now see, now that's a good. Like there's a major, there's a major. Barring from the economy. No, it's finished. You are gone.
29:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:07 Trevor Noah? If you are busted in any Enron-y type thing, you are never doing anything business-y, any, any, again. Facebook Marketplace, don't even join it. It's gone forever. You are out of everythingness. That's like my remedy for it. Like you can go work for a very simple, like you can be a cobbler.
29:23 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:24 Trevor Noah? But good luck being in anything. I'm always looking for a good cobbler too. We're running out of them by the way.
29:28 Speaker 01 Bring back the trade.
29:29 Trevor Noah? It could push some people into where they should have been. We're gonna push people into the trades.
29:33 Speaker 01 I think my real concern is similar to myself, that you have identified a problem, like which is this need for relentless profit and CEOs juicing up the company to serve shareholders, rather than making good stuff, because I don't think some companies need to grow forever. I think it's okay just to be your size.
29:55 Speaker 01 However, I don't think whether you do quarterly earnings or annual earnings, that will really change.
30:00 Trevor Noah? But I'm saying you can see it on the graph, though. If you see, if you go back and look at this, like, once it really became a thing, because it wasn't always a thing. And once quarterly earnings, you see the jump.
30:09 Speaker 02 So I think the, the issue here is the way that quarterly earnings have changed our understanding of the world, even if you aren't in the market.
30:18 Trevor Noah? Yes.
30:18 Speaker 02 Right?
30:21 Speaker 02 I think this is like, something you said to me once, by the way, Kristiana, which I love now using, uh, which is, it gives you this like casino economy.
30:29 Trevor Noah? That's exactly what I mean.
30:30 Speaker 02 That you're constantly in a cycle of risk and loss.
30:33 Trevor Noah? That's what I mean.
30:34 Speaker 02 You're chasing both the dopamine and the possibility.
30:36 Trevor Noah? And it's making people think things are worse or better, or when it's, but it's not, it's too.
30:40 Speaker 02 It's not a sign of quality.
30:41 Trevor Noah? It's like judging a roller coaster on every different slope.
30:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
30:44 Trevor Noah? You know what I mean?
30:45 Speaker 01 Listen, I'm on Schwab dot com all the time.
30:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, exactly.
30:48 Trevor Noah? That's, that's what I'm saying.
30:49 Speaker 02 Part of your tension is that that also happened at the same time, the quarterly earnings, the change in our understanding of the world, happened at the same time that all of a sudden we were all forced into the market. Because the problem is, our houses shouldn't be assets, we shouldn't have to do our retirement accounts, we shouldn't even have these five twenty nine, your baby should just go to school.
31:07 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:08 Speaker 02 So it's really hard to like now get ourselves out of the mindset of, well, without that quarterly information, how will I provide and protect my assets?
31:16 Speaker 01 Companies don't have pensions anymore.
31:17 Speaker 02 So kind of what we need to happen in Trevor's scenario is basically a form of government that we used to have, you gotta have a social safety net.
31:26 Trevor Noah? Oh, no, no, no, no, yeah, this is.
31:28 Speaker 02 Because how are you gonna push people out of the, the first thing you say to most Americans now is, no, I need to know what's happening with my 401k.
31:34 Trevor Noah? Yes.
31:35 Speaker 02 And that's the problem. Yeah, yeah, they love the 401k. The 401k is actually where I might say your problem originated more so than the quarterly earnings, because that made all of us care.
31:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:45 Speaker 02 Once we had to do a 401k, everybody cared, and we're not supposed to care.
31:48 Speaker 01 Yeah.
31:49 Speaker 02 It shouldn't be that big of a deal.
31:50 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
31:51 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, okay.
31:54 Speaker 01 Is it time to vote?
31:54 Trevor Noah? Yeah.
31:55 Speaker 02 I do have some, I mean, I could obviously talk about this so long. There are lots of second order issues that I would need to work out.
32:04 Speaker 02 Is a half voter thing?
32:06 Speaker 01 No.
32:06 Trevor Noah? No.
32:07 Speaker 02 Oh.
32:07 Speaker 01 You can't half vote for Hillary or Trump.
32:09 Speaker 02 I tried.
32:14 Speaker 02 Just like I tried just now. Okay. Ooh. I just don't think the downsides are significant enough. I actually think, because this is one of those things where it has existed before. So that means it's not like it's some weird alternate universe. We know we can live quite fine with yearly earnings. So because of that, I'm gonna vote yes, believe it or not.
32:37 Speaker 01 We have a yes.
32:38 Trevor Noah? We have a yes?
32:38 Speaker 01 Um, I'm going to vote no, and not because I don't think it's a good idea. My personal level of anxiety, there isn't enough Zoloft in the world that can make me be like...
32:48 Speaker 02 We gotta take your apps away.
32:50 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, Trevor says that all the time.
32:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think something's happened there.
32:54 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
32:54 Speaker 02 Yeah.
32:55 Speaker 01 I just think, and I think for a lot of regular people who are unfortunate because of 401Ks and all this stuff.
33:01 Trevor Noah? So this is, oh, okay, I have some of the information here. So, okay, so quarterly earnings reports became a standardized requirement in the United States in 1970.
33:08 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:09 Trevor Noah? When the SEC introduced Form 10-Q as part of its filing system. The mandate formalized the practice, and I think it was because of a crash at some point. Because before, prior to 1970, some companies provided some quarterly updates voluntarily, but they were inconsistent. And then it really became like a big deal.
33:28 Speaker 01 So really, it was for like standardization, like it's something that started.
33:31 Speaker 02 And regulation, because SEC was going in power to regulate.
33:34 Trevor Noah? It was because of a crash, and people were like, oh, okay, we don't want this to happen again.
33:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:38 Trevor Noah? But then, but then to my point, there was another crash. I'm just gonna point that out.
33:42 Speaker 01 There's something to the idea, but I just think it would give just regular people a lot of anxiety.
33:49 Trevor Noah? No, no, but why, but why would that anxiety would be based on the fact that they knew there was another way before? Don't forget amnesia, that's our rules.
33:55 Speaker 02 Yeah.
33:56 Trevor Noah? There was no, Christianity, amnesia.
33:57 Speaker 02 I forgot about that part.
33:58 Trevor Noah? Don't forget that part. The people don't know that there was quarterly.
34:01 Speaker 02 That there was any other way.
34:02 Trevor Noah? I'm saying I'm taking it away completely, it has never been.
34:04 Speaker 01 You've got me on the half vote, maybe.
34:06 Speaker 02 See, I told you, this is the problem here. We need half votes.
34:11 Speaker 01 Um.
34:11 Speaker 02 Actually, I may change mine to that, by the way.
34:13 Speaker 01 No, because people like me will still, so.
34:16 Speaker 02 Okay.
34:16 Trevor Noah? Wow.
34:17 Speaker 02 We come back to human nature.
34:18 Trevor Noah? Wow, wow, wow.
34:19 Speaker 02 This has actually been at the heart of a lot of our comment, like, do you just think this is a human nature?
34:24 Speaker 01 Human nature.
34:25 Speaker 02 Problem, okay.
34:26 Trevor Noah? Wow, okay. Well, uh, another no for me, which I'm used to.
34:30 Speaker 01 And you got a yes?
34:32 Trevor Noah? I did, actually. I got a very valuable yes.
34:34 Speaker 01 And also, my no didn't come from a place of hate, where it usually comes from.
34:38 Trevor Noah? That's true, actually.
34:38 Speaker 01 It came from a place of just like.
34:39 Trevor Noah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This one was different, because normally you go like, I hate that idea. But here you went, I, you, you blame yourself.
34:45 Speaker 01 I said, I hate myself, which is very different.
34:47 Trevor Noah? Okay.
34:47 Speaker 02 That's progress.
34:48 Trevor Noah? Okay, I'll take it. Don't go anywhere, because we got more What Now after this. Some of the most interesting things you learn happen while you're doing something completely ordinary. Maybe you're cooking dinner while watching a history video. Maybe you're on a flight catching up on a long-form interview. Or maybe you're trying to figure out how to fix something in your house, because apparently owning a screwdriver means you're an electrician now.
35:13 Trevor Noah? But you see, that's one of the things I love about YouTube Premium. I travel a lot, so I download videos before a flight. That way, I'm not leaving my entertainment in the hands of airplane wifi. Yeah, I've made that mistake before. You think you're gonna watch something in 4K, and suddenly, everyone's face is pixels. But one of my favorite features is smart downloads. You see, YouTube Premium can automatically download recommended videos for you based on what you already watch. So sometimes I'll get on a plane, I look at my phone, I'm like, ah, I didn't download anything. And it's like, no, YouTube already thought about this. They packed entertainment for me in my little lunchbox. And with background play, I can lock my phone, switch apps, and whatever I'm watching just keeps on going.
35:57 Trevor Noah? So, if you like YouTube, you will love YouTube Premium. Sign up now for your free trial at youtube.com/premium. Terms apply. Cancel anytime. Thanksgiving is one of those meals where every dish carries a little more meaning, because the table is really about the people around it. Whole Foods Market helps take some of the pressure off with quality proteins, seasonal treats, and easy solutions for the days surrounding the holiday. Start with turkey, or a bone-in or boneless ham from the meat department, all with no antibiotics ever. Add seasonal bakery favorites like holiday cookie platters, tea breads, and pies, all made without high fructose corn syrup.
36:42 Trevor Noah? For the days before or after Thanksgiving, marinated meats and prepared sides make dinner easier. The Build Your Own Family Meal feeds four for $35. In-store only. Seasonal candles and body care essentials can help with gifting or serve as a well-earned treat for the host. Their standards leave out artificial sweeteners, artificial colors, and high fructose corn syrup, helping the flavors you want stay at the center of the table. Shop Thanksgiving favorites with higher standards at Whole Foods Markets. Therapy is one of those things lots of people talk themselves out of without even realizing it. Like, it's too expensive, or it's too overwhelming figuring out even where you're gonna start.
37:24 Trevor Noah? But Rula is one way to make that first step feel a lot more doable, offering accessible, affordable therapy that fits your needs. Sign up in just a few minutes and get matched with a therapist who fits what you're looking for. Need to talk to someone quickly? Appointments are often available as soon as the next day. And with insurance, sessions average around a $15 copay. You can also see estimated costs upfront, so there's a lot more clarity going in. And in terms of outcomes, 93% of Rula patients report symptom improvement. If therapy's been sitting in the back of your mind, Rula is a pretty simple way to take that first step. So, turn off the talk track that's keeping you from progress and head to rula.com.
38:09 Trevor Noah? That's R-U-L-A dot com to find a therapist the easy way.
38:21 Speaker 02 Okay.
38:22 Trevor Noah? This is it. Drum roll, please.
38:25 Speaker 02 Oh, because you guys don't know this, but you foreshadowed mine.
38:30 Trevor Noah? Oh, that's beautiful. Then it's a perfect journey.
38:33 Speaker 02 And it took a lot for me not to say anything because I was like, ah. But I think my argument will be stronger than the statement. So here we go.
38:39 Trevor Noah? Okay.
38:40 Speaker 02 If I ruled the world, there would be a national job corps for customer service jobs. Everybody would be conscripted into working in customer service for some period of time in their life for them to go on to the rest of the labor market. And let me tell you why. We have talked about job corps before about like going and doing the jobs that matter to the economy, but it's not the jobs our economy actually does. Right? This is a customer service, this is a service-based economy. And what's happened in that, I think, has helped fuel, by the way, political polarization, is depending on how much money or status you have, you can buy your way out of having to engage with customer service to get the stuff you need.
39:26 Speaker 02 You know it. How many of us go to the airport now? And I do. I bypass all of the lines. And if they come up with a new tier, I'm getting that one too.
39:35 Trevor Noah? You're damn right.
39:35 Speaker 02 I want out of all of it.
39:37 Trevor Noah? TSA pre-check, clear plus.
39:38 Speaker 02 That's right.
39:39 Trevor Noah? Clear plus, advanced.
39:41 Speaker 01 Global, global entry.
39:42 Trevor Noah? Global, global entry.
39:44 Speaker 02 And we'll give you both numbers at the same time and ask you which one gets me through faster. Like, I'm shaking up at the TSA thing, right? Get me through. But I do think that what that has done is means it's kind of like the loss of public transportation. It's the loss of any public square. There are people experiencing this country now from a very myopic view. Because we all do this. We extrapolate our everyday experiences and go, oh, that's how the world works. That's how the country works. Well, now, some people's world actually works like an airport lounge. Where everything is smooth and they're like, what do you mean? America's great. What are you talking about, right? But you know who always knows that things aren't great? The people who have to actually provide the customer service.
40:26 Speaker 01 The people in retail.
40:27 Speaker 02 That's exactly right.
40:29 Speaker 01 The phone when you have a complaint.
40:30 Speaker 02 That's right. So I want people before they go off to Wall Street and before they go off to be a financial consultant or this, that, or the other, right? I want them to understand that for the vast majority of people in this country, nothing works anymore and this is why.
40:47 Speaker 01 And so you mean everyone would have to do it? From the richest to the poorest?
40:50 Speaker 02 Sorry, yes.
40:51 Speaker 01 But poor people don't have time, Tracy.
40:53 Speaker 02 Because I want them to work together. Well, they won't be doing other stuff. It's job core.
40:56 Speaker 01 Okay.
40:56 Speaker 02 So you go.
40:57 Trevor Noah? So this is like military service.
40:59 Speaker 02 Yes.
41:00 Trevor Noah? But customer service.
41:01 Speaker 02 That's right.
41:02 Speaker 01 For how long?
41:03 Speaker 02 Okay, that's a good question. How long before you understand just how lucky you are? Probably six months. You probably get it within two weeks. But I say this as somebody who worked a lot of customer service jobs. So I might be more sensitive.
41:15 Speaker 01 Okay.
41:16 Speaker 02 So maybe up to a year.
41:17 Speaker 01 And are you paid for it?
41:19 Speaker 02 Yes, because I don't want to create like a permanent underclass with this. In fact, part of the point is people make money for this and I need you to understand that shapes the whole thing, right?
41:28 Speaker 01 So you're trying to close kind of the empathy gap in a way?
41:32 Speaker 02 Yes.
41:32 Speaker 01 And you want people to understand how frustrating it is to be in America?
41:39 Speaker 02 And what they have been able to opt out of is not the majority of this country.
41:44 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay. I will say there's one part of it that I really do like is I
41:51 Trevor Noah? I often say to people, so I'm in airports a lot.
41:55 Trevor Noah? And I notice people who travel infrequently.
41:58 Speaker 02 Right.
41:58 Trevor Noah? Will have a very different attitude towards airport workers. Because for them, they don't understand how any of this isn't going according to plan.
42:07 Speaker 02 Yeah.
42:08 Trevor Noah? And I'll often say to people who are even there having a meltdown, like I've been at a gate when the flight's canceled and I see people immediately going to meltdown. And sometimes I'll say to anyone who's around me, I go like, hey, don't waste your time. Let's just go rebook. Trust me, just go rebook. You're wasting your time because you're going after the face of the problem.
42:23 Speaker 02 Yes.
42:23 Trevor Noah? Who has nothing to do with the problem.
42:24 Speaker 02 Yep.
42:25 Trevor Noah? They don't know when the plane's coming. They can't clean the plane. They can't fix the plane. They can't do anything. They've just been told to tell you. And then they bear the brunt of it.
42:32 Speaker 02 Right, yeah.
42:33 Trevor Noah? And they're not the one who's making your ticket not work. So I do like that side of it. The question I have though is.
42:44 Trevor Noah? Because you say everyone does it. And is it like every front-facing job? So we're talking, I'll list a few jobs and you let me know if this includes them. Uh, waiter.
42:52 Speaker 02 Yes, in fact, very much so, yeah.
42:55 Trevor Noah? TSA agent?
42:56 Speaker 02 Yes.
42:57 Trevor Noah? Okay, um, um, airport booking, like at the, at the, okay. Front desk at a hotel?
43:02 Speaker 02 Yes, that was actually mine.
43:03 Trevor Noah? Okay, oh, that was one of yours.
43:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's one I thought of first, by the way, yeah.
43:07 Trevor Noah? Um, I'm trying to think of what else would.
43:09 Speaker 02 Anybody who answers the phone when you dial one eight hundred.
43:12 Trevor Noah? Call center agents, okay.
43:14 Speaker 02 Let me tell you who's not included, because I did think about this, by the way. Because we call a lot of stuff service now that's not customer service. So there's like, you know, personal finance service, there's bank service. Anything that, that where the customer service job is conditioned on the people have already cleared a high level of status to even be there, I'm not gonna include. I don't want you providing customer service just to rich people, or even just to only poor people. Okay. Because one of the benefits to me of this is that there are very few places anymore where you get a cross-section of Americans.
43:43 Trevor Noah? So they'll work at the DMV?
43:44 Speaker 02 Yes.
43:45 Speaker 01 What about, what about hairdressers? Because I have a good friend Vernon, who's an incredible hairdresser.
43:48 Speaker 02 Oh, no, because we can't have people out here just messing up folks.
43:53 Speaker 02 I'm not trying to run no kind of like.
43:55 Speaker 01 Tracy's like, oh, what, what I was gonna say.
43:58 Speaker 02 Well, no. That is, that is skill-based.
44:02 Speaker 01 Well, what I was gonna say, I have a friend called Vernon Francois, who's an amazing celebrity hairstylist, but he has like lots of clients who aren't celebrities. And he said something to me interesting, he was like, you know, I'm in service work.
44:12 Speaker 02 That's right.
44:13 Speaker 01 He's like, I use my body.
44:14 Trevor Noah? Yes.
44:14 Speaker 01 And he's like, people don't think of it as the physical, the laborious job. I use my body and I'm very attuned to the client's emotions.
44:23 Speaker 02 That's right.
44:23 Speaker 01 And whatever the client is, I have to be responsive to them. And when I leave work, I'm drained, even if it's somebody that I really enjoy. And I never thought about his work. So I think that's like, especially since a lot of women are in the beauty industry.
44:36 Speaker 02 A strong agree.
44:37 Speaker 01 You know, like nails, hair.
44:39 Trevor Noah? But, but I will say this, though, to Tracy's point. There's a level of reverence we have for hair people because they can destroy our lives.
44:46 Speaker 02 That is correct.
44:47 Speaker 01 No, the hairdressers will not say that. They would say that we treat them badly.
44:50 Trevor Noah? Really?
44:50 Speaker 01 That's why they were demanding deposit.
44:52 Speaker 02 Listen, I would agree, I would agree that they would say that. And I actually also would agree that there's a coarsening of the people and how they interact with service providers. I would also say that if you gave most people a shot at working at a Supercuts, which coincidentally, one of my former jobs was training the people who worked. I had so many jobs, y'all. It was at the supercut, so I've seen it. As opposed to saying, hey, go work the front desk at the rental car agency. They would take the abuse at the hair, at the haircuttery every day. You know why? Because to Trevor's point, at the end of the day, however, you need your haircut.
45:29 Speaker 01 Yes.
45:29 Speaker 02 There is an intimacy to the interaction. There's no intimacy in these others. But yeah.
45:36 Speaker 01 Okay, so hairdressers not involved.
45:38 Speaker 02 Yeah, because you need a skill to deliver it well. If delivering the customer service requires a certain amount of skilled training to do it. Like, you do need to know, like, you need to know the technique of cutting. We can, we can get most Americans, based on just their everyday skills, to answer a phone.
45:55 Speaker 01 Okay.
45:55 Speaker 02 And to push a button on the customer.
45:57 Speaker 01 You're talking about, like, administrative.
45:59 Speaker 02 Front-facing, I would say, front-facing, frontline customer service.
46:03 Speaker 01 Yes.
46:03 Speaker 02 Where you have to get something you need, and it would be really hard for you to get it any other kind of way.
46:07 Speaker 01 Tracy, can I tell you my concern?
46:09 Speaker 02 Yes, that you're gonna have to work one of them?
46:11 Speaker 01 Uh, no, I was, let me tell you something. One of my first jobs, I worked in Alder's in Croydon. And I was retail, it was my Saturday's job, I was paid like, maybe three, four pounds an hour. Taught me every, it taught me so much about life. What is Alder's? Alder's was like a, sadly, R.I.P., it was a department store. Okay, like a Macy's type thing. Yeah, not that fancy, but it was like a department store. You clearly haven't been to Macy's recently.
46:33 Speaker 02 You were not wrong, but oh, that hurt.
46:35 Speaker 01 It was a Saturday job, I had my uniform, and my friends worked across the street at House of Fraser, which was fancier department store. So I've worked retail, and, you know.
46:45 Speaker 02 But you see what she said, what it taught you?
46:46 Speaker 01 Yeah, it taught me a lot. I mean, and, well, this is the thing. I remember one distinct experience of a customer who was really cruel to me in the way she spoke to me. Oh, wow. Because like, there's always, people make an assumption about retail girls, especially when they look a bit young.
47:01 Speaker 02 Yep.
47:01 Speaker 01 Some people think, this is gonna be your job for the next thirty years. Even that, to me, shouldn't define how you treat them or whatever. And I remember feeling like, very dehumanized in that moment. And I was just like, I will never speak to somebody working in retail like this. So whenever there's a sales associate, I'm, I try and make friends with them. Of course, they give you the good bags as well, but, um... What I would knew about that interaction, though, there's a version of me that means I would want revenge. And when I'm on the other side of it.
47:27 Speaker 02 We're back to human nature.
47:28 Speaker 01 I'm gonna treat people badly. And my fear is, for a lot of people, when they have the power, when they've come out of job call and they no longer are on the,
47:38 Speaker 02 Yep.
47:38 Speaker 01 you know, the person servicing, they're gonna go around, they're gonna treat people badly because they were treated badly.
47:43 Speaker 02 Yes.
47:44 Speaker 01 So how do we, I think you're assuming people are gonna learn the right lesson.
47:48 Trevor Noah? You going with the hurt people, hurt people.
47:49 Speaker 01 Which I see a lot.
47:50 Speaker 02 I actually don't, I, I actually believe that human nature is a thing too. And I don't think we can solve for every, like, you know, psychologically harmed person. What I do think, and again, thought this one through, is yes, people will come out of there saying, see, the people who do this are just stupid as I thought. Oh, my God, I'm so glad to be back to my inheritance and my good life. I'm out of it, right? But those people also were never gonna behave well anyway.
48:15 Speaker 01 Okay.
48:15 Speaker 02 Right? I do think you're gonna have a part of the population where that's not gonna work. But I do think that when we talk about this pulling apart from each other, which I don't romanticize that. We were never a cohesive culture or society. But the intimacy of our daily interactions increased the risk of us acting badly in certain ways.
48:34 Trevor Noah? Hmm.
48:34 Speaker 02 And I think that when we have lost that, we don't have to take the train together. We don't have to sit in the park together. We don't have to sit, when people can consistently buy themselves out of the public square to just get the stuff they need, I can live on Amazon. I never have to interact with the public. I think it makes it really easy to dehumanize each other.
48:55 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
48:56 Speaker 02 And to say, my fates are not linked to yours in any way at all. And I think that for, maybe not everybody, but I think for a soft majority of people, any kind of exposure to having to share space with people in a way where you can't use your pre-check, your clear, your app that gives you this fast line at the McDonald's, I mean, do you see how it's trickled down? By the, I mean, there's now a special line for everybody, everywhere, at every level of interaction.
49:26 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
49:27 Speaker 02 And I don't think that has been good for us.
49:29 Trevor Noah? But wait, wait, wait. Help me understand this. How would that solve that part? Because if everyone's in the job call.
49:34 Speaker 02 Yeah.
49:35 Trevor Noah? I I still have my pre-check, don't I?
49:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, well, it solves it this way.
49:39 Trevor Noah? Yeah.
49:39 Speaker 02 You now have to experience the exchange from the other side.
49:42 Trevor Noah? Okay, I so I.
49:43 Speaker 02 You still have the power.
49:44 Trevor Noah? I was working.
49:45 Speaker 02 That's right.
49:45 Trevor Noah? So at some point, I would know what it's like to be in the non-pre-check line.
49:48 Speaker 02 Right.
49:49 Trevor Noah? Okay, all right. I I do like many elements of this, I will say. I think one of the things I like most is, to your point. Wait, wait, actually, let me ask this before I.
49:59 Speaker 02 Okay.
49:59 Trevor Noah? Before I assume. Because remember, this is, you said something that made me feel like you're allowing people to choose when it happens.
50:08 Speaker 02 No, not when.
50:09 Trevor Noah? So when, so when is this happening in their lives?
50:11 Speaker 02 Uh, I think it's pretty much like military service. I think you get drafted up. It's somewhere between, you know, your name goes in the big bucket, somewhere between eighteen and twenty-one.
50:19 Speaker 01 Don't worry that, you know, rich people will buy their way out.
50:23 Speaker 02 Oh.
50:23 Trevor Noah? You can't, you can't.
50:24 Speaker 02 I have the power, that's right, I have the power.
50:26 Speaker 01 You get exemptions because.
50:27 Trevor Noah? No, it's her system.
50:28 Speaker 02 That's right.
50:28 Speaker 01 So no exemptions?
50:29 Speaker 02 No, well, because think of us customers, sorry, we got so many variety. There shouldn't be exemptions for bone spurs. There's not.
50:35 Trevor Noah? Yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm with you.
50:36 Speaker 02 Because I can find you something.
50:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
50:38 Speaker 02 You know what I'm saying? You can answer the phone.
50:41 Speaker 01 Okay.
50:41 Speaker 02 From anywhere, yeah, I'm gonna find you something.
50:43 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay.
50:44 Speaker 02 And I might even be the one assigning it. I haven't gone that far, but the more I think about it, the more I like that idea. But yes, you go into the draft.
50:51 Trevor Noah? This is me pitching for you to win my vote. Would you consider making it something that people have to like go back and re-up after a certain amount of time? I only say this because.
51:01 Speaker 01 You may lose me there, or.
51:05 Trevor Noah? I'll tell you why.
51:05 Speaker 01 Having to come back.
51:06 Trevor Noah? I'll tell you why.
51:07 Speaker 02 It all came out.
51:08 Speaker 01 Having to come back. Oh, no, no, no, no, Trevor, no.
51:12 Trevor Noah? Wait, I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why, I'll tell you why. I think when young people go into these lines of work. They process it differently. It's almost like a hobby jobby thing.
51:23 Speaker 02 I hear you.
51:23 Trevor Noah? So like, I've seen college kids slash high school kids working at like a place where something doesn't work. You, like, even if someone's berating them, these kids are just like, whatever. They're like, well, because they they get shouted at by teachers and parents and whatnot.
51:37 Speaker 02 Okay, this is a good point.
51:38 Trevor Noah? They they go like, they don't even think of this as being part of their lives, is what I think a lot of the time. Now, I'm not saying it's good to treat them that way, but I I I've noticed a lot of them have a very like water off my back-ish vibe.
51:49 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
51:50 Trevor Noah? Versus an adult who is being berated as if they are a child. Because because I think there's an overlap between how people treat young people.
51:58 Speaker 02 Okay, okay, so this is an interesting status distinction. You got me on this one, I like this.
52:02 Speaker 01 I have a pitch, make it like Teach for America. You know Teach for America is the thing where like they get these kids that are probably gonna work at McKinsey at some point.
52:10 Trevor Noah? Yeah.
52:10 Speaker 01 And you go and work in a public school, but you have to have a degree first to get the job to be a teacher. If it's like Teach for America, when you finish college or you finish, make it a bit older. So you do it around.
52:21 Trevor Noah? I'm, you can pitch yours. I'm telling you my one. I would, I'm just asking if you would be willing to consider a re-up.
52:26 Speaker 02 Okay, so here's what I agree with.
52:27 Trevor Noah? I'll tell you why a re-up.
52:28 Speaker 02 It could be a conditioned re-up.
52:29 Speaker 01 If you do the re-up, you may lose me, Tracy.
52:32 Trevor Noah? Okay, I'm just asking.
52:33 Speaker 01 This is democracy now.
52:33 Speaker 02 See, y'all are putting me in this position.
52:35 Speaker 01 You've got Christiana.
52:36 Trevor Noah? I'm just letting, let me tell you why, Christiana, cause I think, I do think it's, it's invaluable for a young person to go into a space where they, they work in a front-facing service job, whether it's waiting tables, whether it's picking up calls, whatever it is. I do think that's good for them to interact with people and to understand this from that side. However, when you are young, I mean, you're so predisposed to sort of doing that because that's where society puts you anyway. Hey, can you grab me something from the thing? Hey, pick up that thing for me? Hey. So you're almost already in a service job, for the most part culturally.
53:07 Speaker 01 I'll counter, Gen Z are like, are the generation that haven't had to do that thing that we did.
53:12 Trevor Noah? Okay, okay.
53:13 Speaker 01 Like a lot of Gen Z have never did Saturday jobs and stuff like that.
53:16 Trevor Noah? But that's what I'm saying, I'm not saying remove it. I'm saying I just would love to know.
53:20 Speaker 02 You want a forty-two-year-old who has had a management job.
53:24 Trevor Noah? That's what I mean, I'll tell you why.
53:25 Speaker 01 I've got three kids and you people want me to.
53:27 Trevor Noah? But remember you, okay, but I'm assuming, Tracy, in your world, there's already childcare, there's already all these, cause she's worried about time with her kids and her kids. You said you've got three kids. I'm assuming in Tracy's magical world, there's childcare, healthcare, all of that.
53:40 Speaker 02 I have built a feminist economy.
53:42 Trevor Noah? Well, there you go.
53:43 Speaker 02 Okay, yeah, like, we are.
53:45 Speaker 01 Okay.
53:46 Speaker 02 We are scaling up and providing for social reproduction in any world where I'm in charge.
53:51 Speaker 01 Do you know why I like your addition to it?
53:53 Trevor Noah? Yes.
53:53 Speaker 01 Because the thing that's drawing me to, to Tracy's idea is that you're saying that nobody is above service.
53:58 Speaker 02 That's right.
53:59 Trevor Noah? Yes.
54:00 Speaker 01 And you're saying, I don't care if you've gone out and worked in the.
54:02 Trevor Noah? That's what I mean.
54:04 Speaker 01 To this thing again, which I agree, I'm like, yeah.
54:06 Trevor Noah? Yes, because in what, in what we've spoken about before, I think sometimes people. Don't think of it as a problem that needs to be solved. They think of it as a problem that they need to escape.
54:17 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:18 Speaker 02 Yes.
54:18 Speaker 01 Oh, wow.
54:19 Trevor Noah? That's the issue that I have.
54:20 Speaker 02 There you go. Thank you.
54:21 Trevor Noah? You see?
54:21 Speaker 01 That's why I left England.
54:22 Trevor Noah? Yeah, that's what I mean. So people, we live in a world where people don't say, man, this neighborhood sucks, we've got to fix it. They go, this neighborhood sucks, I gotta get out.
54:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:34 Trevor Noah? That's what people say. And then I go, like, I even feel like that with Americans.
54:37 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
54:38 Trevor Noah? Whenever an election doesn't go the way they want, they go, I'm leaving this country. And then I'll often say to them, I'll go, yo, first of all, what a crazy privilege you have that you think you can just like go anywhere in the world whenever you want to because it's not going the way you like, right? But also, where's like, where's your gusto to say, ah, that's terrible, I'm gonna try to be part of fixing it?
54:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, I understand.
55:00 Trevor Noah? Like, because then otherwise you just become like the, the, the, you know, those people who drive and throw trash out of their car everywhere. Because that's all you're doing. I don't like this, throw it away. I don't like this, throw it away. No, but where are you in, in fixing it? So the reason I want people to re-up, the way I'm asking, because I don't run this world, you do. I'm just asking this as a citizen of your world.
55:17 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
55:18 Trevor Noah? Is because I think it would be nice for people to be reminded of the fact that they don't get out of it.
55:24 Speaker 02 Mm-hmm.
55:24 Trevor Noah? They're just lucky enough to not be experiencing that part of it. So now you're a CEO.
55:29 Speaker 02 Yes.
55:29 Trevor Noah? You're a top banking whatever.
55:31 Speaker 02 Oh, I love this.
55:32 Trevor Noah? You're whatever it might be. And at different stages of your life, you're re-upping the experience that you will process differently because of your status in life.
55:40 Speaker 01 Oh, I like this because then people in the job call will be like intergenerational. Because then you'd actually have like-
55:45 Speaker 02 Which I do think is hugely important.
55:47 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:47 Speaker 02 Yes. Okay. So I'm gonna say something I rarely say, Trevor.
55:53 Speaker 02 You have improved upon my idea. I?
55:57 Trevor Noah? Well.
55:57 Speaker 02 This is amazing.
55:59 Speaker 01 Not a man. Not a man.
56:00 Speaker 02 God. Just so you know, there's a man at home right now who is very jealous of you. And he's like, what?
56:07 Speaker 01 Tracy.
56:08 Speaker 02 Okay. I, yes.
56:10 Speaker 01 Yeah, I agree. Okay.
56:11 Speaker 02 Yes.
56:12 Speaker 01 Can we vote?
56:13 Trevor Noah? So, voting.
56:14 Speaker 01 Emphatically, yes.
56:15 Speaker 02 Okay.
56:16 Trevor Noah? One million percent yes.
56:19 Speaker 02 Thank you. I won.
56:21 Speaker 01 This is like a miracle. I don't think we've had this before.
56:23 Trevor Noah? Wow, I didn't think it would end with that line.
56:26 Speaker 01 I won.
56:28 Speaker 02 It's not a competition.
56:29 Trevor Noah? We were all in, we were in service. We were, Tracy was, she roped us in with like, and you know, as humans and don't forget, and as people, and as soon as we gave her the vote, she was like, ha ha.
56:39 Speaker 01 That's why she has a genius grunt, right?
56:41 Trevor Noah? Yep.
56:42 Speaker 01 Makatha over here.
56:44 Trevor Noah? You know, if you winning means we get to live in that world, I will take it.
56:47 Speaker 01 I like it.
56:48 Speaker 02 Thanks, y'all.
56:48 Trevor Noah? Congratulations, your first attempt and a win.
56:50 Speaker 02 I feel amazing. That's great. Because if I can convince the two, that's what I'm saying, if I can convince the two of you.
56:57 Trevor Noah? I think it's, can I, can I be honest with you? I think it is actually an amazing idea that isn't hard to implement.
57:03 Speaker 02 It's really actually.
57:04 Trevor Noah? And I think the upsides of it, I didn't even consider what you're saying about intergenerational.
57:08 Speaker 02 Yes.
57:09 Trevor Noah? Just old people having to work with young people and then women with men in ways that they wouldn't necessarily, because now you also have, we have like gendered jobs.
57:17 Speaker 02 Right.
57:18 Trevor Noah? It'd be so great that it's not a gendered job.
57:19 Speaker 02 That's right.
57:20 Trevor Noah? And then you just have people.
57:21 Speaker 02 It was just your number came up.
57:22 Trevor Noah? And it would be nice for, and we talk about this all the time, what universities I think have lost because of how much money has defined university. We have fewer and fewer places and spaces where people of different class groups get to mix.
57:37 Speaker 01 And political backgrounds.
57:38 Trevor Noah? And mix organically. And how nice would it be to have the heir of a billionaire?
57:43 Speaker 02 Yep.
57:44 Trevor Noah? Working at the southwest counter with somebody who comes from the inner city.
57:48 Speaker 02 Yes.
57:48 Speaker 01 And they could get married.
57:49 Trevor Noah? Yeah, they could be, and this is true.
57:51 Speaker 02 That's the fear, by the way, this is the fear, right? So for people, when you say this thing, it sounds perfectly logical and it's amazing and all of our values are embedded in it. Why wouldn't you be in favor of this? Honestly, it's that. Like I invested in a kid who should be able to like go on and inherit and duh duh duh. And you are gonna put them beside the cute poor kid?
58:14 Trevor Noah? Oh wow.
58:15 Speaker 02 Anything could happen, but that's my point, anything could happen.
58:18 Trevor Noah? It's the villain in every Disney movie.
58:20 Speaker 02 That's right.
58:21 Trevor Noah? Yeah.
58:22 Speaker 02 But that's why I like it, anything could happen.
58:23 Speaker 01 I love it.
58:24 Trevor Noah? Well, Tracy, the genius and the winner.
58:29 Speaker 02 Thank you for that part.
58:30 Trevor Noah? Thank you so much for joining us.
58:31 Speaker 02 Thanks.
58:32 Trevor Noah? And that really was great, that's, that gave me a lot to think about, thank you.
58:42 Trevor Noah? What Now with Trevor Noah is produced by Spotify Studios in partnership with Day Zero Productions. The show is executive produced by Trevor Noah, Sanaz Yamin, and Jodie Avigan. Our senior producer is Jess Hackel. Claire Slaughter is our producer. Music, mixing, and mastering by Hannes Brown. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next Thursday for another episode of What Now.
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