Number 1 Communication Expert: Stop Doing this… People Will Like You More | Jefferson Fisher

In this episode, Jefferson Fisher discusses the nuances of toxic behavior, communication, self-awareness, and emotional intelligence. He shares insights on how to handle difficult conversations and strategies for standing up for oneself without escalating conflicts. Codie and Jefferson explore the dynamics of adult behavior in the workplace, emphasizing the power of calm energy in leadership and encouraging a mindset of learning rather than proving oneself. Try Out Our Business Grading Quiz: https://bizworth.contrarianthinking.co/ Want help scaling your business to $1M in monthly revenue? ⁠Click here⁠ to connect with my consulting team. Chapters 00:00- Understanding Bullying and Toxic Behavior 02:11- The Art of Communication in Difficult Situations 12:28- Knowing When to Stand Up for Yourself 19:11- Dealing with Complaints and Negativity 29:09- Responding to Bullies and Toxic People 34:12- The High School Dynamics of Adult Life 39:12- Mastering Comebacks and Insults 41:01- The Art of High-Performance Communication 46:01- Calm Energy in Leadership 51:22- Navigating Emotions in Conversations 56:30- Understanding Narcissism and Communication 01:01:55- Crying in the Workplace: A Natural Response 01:09:08- The Balance of Likability and Competence 01:10:43- The Power of Authenticity in Communication 01:15:03- The Art of Listening 01:19:08- The Importance of Asking Questions 01:24:41- Navigating Difficult Conversations 01:31:18- Building Meaningful Relationships 01:34:58- Final Thoughts and Reflections MORE FROM BIGDEAL: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ MORE FROM CODIE SANCHEZ: 🎥 ⁠YouTube⁠ 📸 ⁠Instagram⁠ 📽️ ⁠TikTok⁠ OTHER THINGS WE DO: 🫂 ⁠Our community⁠ 📰 ⁠Free newsletter⁠ 🏦 ⁠Biz buying course⁠ 🏠 ⁠Resibrands⁠ 💰 ⁠CT Capital⁠ 🏙️ ⁠Main St Hold Co⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  There are people that you may not call a bully, but they'll certainly boss you around. They might not steal your lunch money, but they will steal your self-esteem if they can.

• 0:07Codie Sanchez?

  You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fisher. He just had a New York Times bestselling book come out. This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to.

• 0:17Speaker 00

  The compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and almost impossible to swallow.

• 0:22Codie Sanchez?

  How do you handle a toxic person?

• 0:24Speaker 00

  If you're going to say something ugly to me and then I just let it hang, it is one of the most powerful moves you can make.

• 0:31Codie Sanchez?

  Can you tell if somebody is a high performer based on the way they communicate?

• 0:35Speaker 00

  A thousand percent. If you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are going to get tired. Some people are worth getting out of your chair for and some people aren't.

• 0:48Codie Sanchez?

  Hello and welcome back to the Big Deal Podcast. I'm Codie Sanchez and this week's guest is amazing. You're going to love hearing from Jefferson Fisher, especially if you don't know what to do when you get insulted or bullied or have somebody say something to you that you think is disrespectful. You're going to love this conversation if you don't really know how to have difficult conversations. He just had a New York Times bestselling book come out. It's called The Next Conversation. The book is brilliant. And so I think you will get as much from this episode as I did. This is one of those episodes that I think every human needs to listen to. And the other thing I want to leave you guys with today is that if somebody has sent you this podcast,

• 1:33Codie Sanchez?

  I think that's really special because it means they care about you. They want to communicate with you. If there is somebody that you want to communicate better with, that you care deeply for, I think this is a great podcast to share with just about anybody. What we've realized from watching the numbers is a lot of you all are also not subscribed. I know you're here listening to this podcast because you want to be better. People who want to be better, come here. People who don't are not part of our tribe. And so if you're not already subscribed, hit the button. That allows us to continue bringing you the best guests in the world to ask the questions that you care about and to have you be able to have content you can share with the people that you love too. Without further Jefferson Fisher. But you seem really nice for I met a lot of trial attorneys back in the day. I used to work in the mental health and rule 11 competency court.

• 2:18Speaker 00

  Oh, okay.

• 2:20Codie Sanchez?

  It was brutal. Not that nice of people all the time. You seem very happy and nice and well adjusted.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  Well, thank you. You can blame that on my parents.

• 2:28Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:29Speaker 00

  I find that a lot of attorneys are nice.

• 2:32Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:32Speaker 00

  They just think that that's what attorneys are supposed to be like.

• 2:35Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:36Speaker 00

  Or do or be so to me that's, you know, like, uh, put on a suit and tie. It doesn't change who they are.

• 2:44Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 2:45Speaker 00

  It's also it's their costume. It's their suit and tie. They feel like that's who they have to become. And so a lot of them I am personal friends with and they are great. I mean, you see, they're married. Somebody liked them. Say, you know, somebody liked them enough for a little bit to have kids. And then when you get in trial with them, they turn into different animals. Yeah.

• 3:09Codie Sanchez?

  Are you a different animal when you do trial?

• 3:10Speaker 00

  No.

• 3:11Codie Sanchez?

  No, you're the same?

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Same. So what and I find it to be a very, a great leverage point because people feel like I don't. I had this one time I had a good friend. We were in trial and this was halfway through and he goes, man, I hate trying cases with you. I said, what's going on? He said, I can't get mad. I can't get mad. I was like, oh, is that right? He goes, yeah, I typically have a another attorney who messed up or I can start blaming them. And then they don't and just say they don't care about my client. They don't care about people and start making them. It's like, I can't make a villain out of you. I can't make an enemy. And so it just happens to be something that everybody's looking for. We find, we do something and then we're trying to slowly find people that we can just blame it on.

• 3:55Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I liked that line you had actually, which was, was basically essentially that, that some people need a villain to validate their behavior. Using kindness prevents you from giving them an enemy.

• 4:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:07Codie Sanchez?

  How, how do you kill someone with kindness?

• 4:09Speaker 00

  There is a theory that I like to put and it's just being in the pocket. Like if you have with music, you have people that are rushing the tempo and people that are dragging. But when everybody's in rhythm, everybody's, the drummer's on the beat, everybody's in line, piano's good. And everybody's bass. Everybody starts to nod their head like I got this. I feel good. Not Russian. Same thing with your personality. If you're, if you're somebody that, let's say I sit down and I'm really, really anxious and like I, I just love things. I love talking so much and you're ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, going really fast. It's easy to feel that rise up. But when you're somebody who slows down, it's like easier to calm down. You just kind of kill them with kindness.

• 4:49Speaker 00

  To where if whatever they say, okay. It's not like I have to be direct with you. I have to battle you. It's this um, kind of weird martial arts, just be like water, that kind of thing.

• 5:02Codie Sanchez?

  Well, you kind of did it right there. You know, when he says something that could be kind of incendiary and you could have defended against, which is, I can't get mad at you. Like I hate trialing you.

• 5:12Speaker 00

  Right.

• 5:12Codie Sanchez?

  And your response was fascinating. You just said, oh, is that right?

• 5:15Speaker 00

  Yeah. Is that right?

• 5:16Codie Sanchez?

  Is that what you do to deflect sort of villain-like behavior? You just get curious and ask questions?

• 5:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. People would say, you hear a lot in communication advice, you gotta get curious. And I find that work, it can be kind of overused. I think it's right. It's spot on. But curious is often something that suggests that you have to really be interested. And sometimes it's not the case. I don't have to be interested in their bad behavior. It's more of this mindset that you go into of water off a duck's back where you can say whatever you choose to say. I can choose what I want to say. And a lot of it, people have a lot of opinions.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  You can keep it all inside your head without sharing any of it. So a lot of people were just these, all we do is create opinions and opinions and opinions. I don't want people to go with us. But I think the real power is just understanding you need to have fewer opinions and even fewer that you share. I feel like on social media, that's all we, we tend to do. But yeah, making, making yourself an easy target, also making yourself a villain for somebody's behavior. They want to blame it on you for making them behave a certain way or something like that. So it's, it's really being able to not mind, because people feel like just because you said something, I have to have an opinion on it. Or just because you said something, I have to throw it right back.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  And it's, it's not baseball. It's not tennis. It's not volleyball. I don't, I can just, if you say something ugly to me, Cody, and I could just let it fall. As if I look at it and goes, ah. Is that really what you want to say? You could, did you say the same thing I think you said? Versus me catching it, taking it personal, how dare you? That's, that's when you get into the, that's when you lose track of who you are.

• 7:01Codie Sanchez?

  You, you've like kind of accepted their frame then, basically. It's like now you're defending against a frame, which allows you to sort of step into their world as opposed to if you just question it back.

• 7:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:13Codie Sanchez?

  Then you, you call it like, um, you switch the power tables or you switch the power law?

• 7:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. They, they like, um, people say you flip the script or you flip the tables. For me, when somebody's acting poorly, you're kind of digging a hole. And when they're acting ugly, ugly towards you, you have the choice. Do you want to jump in the hole with them and start saying all the ugly things? Or do you just want to say, how's it going down there? You know, it's, it's, it's okay. I'm up here anytime you want to come up, but you, you, you enjoy that down there. But you can tell, I mean, even how you and I are talking, we naturally, because I've been going a little bit slower. You go slower and it happens in everyday conversation with all of it. I watch your, uh, the videos, I love the videos that you have of you in the car. Of like content on the go.

• 8:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 8:01Speaker 00

  Which I think is so cool.

• 8:03Codie Sanchez?

  You do this, you're the famous content and.

• 8:05Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it is different. Somebody's filming you. Like mine's like, I'm looking like I'm FaceTiming my grandma, you know, like something like that.

• 8:11Codie Sanchez?

  Very endearing though.

• 8:12Speaker 00

  Oh, thank you.

• 8:12Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 00

  But that would, that's, that's, uh, that's what you want. You want people to feel the authenticity in the communication. Yeah, and this, you do the same thing. Like you, the content you put out is a hundred percent you and people know the difference.

• 8:27Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I'm always yelling at people though. You're very good at not, you're not so much of a yeller, huh?

• 8:32Speaker 00

  No, my, I wasn't raised to be a yeller, but also I was also raised that if you really want to feel, you really want to make somebody feel bad. Don't yell. There are people that wish, even in those situations where people wish you would yell. Like, they feel like they're in the doghouse so bad that they just wish that you showed, you yelled at them, they, they need that, because they'll, they'll do it to themselves. But also, if you're a yeller, if all you do is stay like a level eight or nine all the time and you're always angry, people don't know the difference between what's a level ten threat and what's still just your norm threat. So what's, what really is the difference? Now, if I'm always at a three

• 9:14Speaker 00

  and then I need to raise to an eight, you can better believe they're gonna listen. Because they go, whoa, this is out of the blue, this isn't his normal, this is different. If you're always up there at the top, nobody's gonna know the difference and they really won't listen to it. It's the same thing with just people who say less. You know, when people are in the, the habit of saying less and choosing their words, more people actually listen. It's, um, it's like the economy of, of words. The less you give, the more they will listen. The more you say, the less they will.

• 9:46Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's true. I was just interviewing Robert Greene the other day.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, how was that?

• 9:49Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, amazing. I mean, I was very nervous for that one because he, I love the book, I love the book Forty Eight Laws of Power.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  I've heard he's cool.

• 9:58Codie Sanchez?

  He's very, I mean, he's in his eighties and he had a stroke and he moves real slow.

• 10:04Speaker 00

  Right.

• 10:04Codie Sanchez?

  But he has this huge brain. And he's very thoughtful on each word. And he's not playing any games. He's not really trying to make you like him. He's not.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Well, he's eighty. I wouldn't either at that age.

• 10:18Codie Sanchez?

  We hope not, you know? I hope by then I kinda don't care.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:21Codie Sanchez?

  But he has, um, what I like about him, but you do a lot of it in it, just your own style. He says sort of the quiet part out loud. And, um, he's honest about human nature. And, um, and then he uses all of these examples through history in order to overlay it. I don't know, have you ever read his book? The Hard Copy of the Forty Eight Laws of Power?

• 10:43Speaker 00

  So I have it and I know enough of it, but I haven't like studied it.

• 10:47Codie Sanchez?

  If you open it, I wish I had, he gave me his like example of it, but in all the margins. Are sort of like these notes that he writes. It's it's cool in the book. It's almost like if you had taken your book and then everything that was in your book, you had put your thoughts about your writings in the book.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah. And like actually written it in there.

• 11:05Codie Sanchez?

  Mm hmm. And it's all in red and it's these quotes like there'll be a little Machiavellian story. There'll be a little story of Churchill.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Is that the one where like the the binding of it has like one side it's his face, the other is Machiavelli?

• 11:16Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 11:17Codie Sanchez?

  Very, it's very thoughtful.

• 11:18Speaker 00

  I just left, um, I just got here from Baster, from, uh,

• 11:22Codie Sanchez?

  Ryan.

• 11:23Speaker 00

  Ryan.

• 11:23Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 11:24Speaker 00

  And he showed me that book in his library.

• 11:26Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, that's wild. Yeah, it's one of my favorites.

• 11:29Speaker 00

  How small world.

• 11:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, the world's weird. Um, one thing I want to go back to, I was combing through a bunch of your socia's and I did love this line, which we've circled around, which is,

• 11:39Codie Sanchez?

  not everything requires a response from you. Just because they spew out trash doesn't mean you're in the business of digging through garbage.

• 11:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:46Codie Sanchez?

  And that kind of gets back to your point, maybe on digging a hole and how you're feeling down there. But but also, how, if that is true, how do you stand up for yourself in the times where you know you should?

• 11:59Speaker 00

  The biggest thing to know about standing up for yourself is knowing when to do it. There's a lot of people that you, if you always get out of your chair to stand your ground on every little issue, your legs are gonna get tired. Like you just, some people are worth getting out of your chair for and some people aren't. There are some people that if you really feel like an injustice, like for me, a driving principle is justice. If I feel like something is unjust, I'm much more, um, I guess it's unjust, then I'm much more prone to get out of my seat and say, no, no, this is not, this isn't cool. That's not fair. This isn't equal. You don't talk, you don't treat people that way.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  But if you, if you're the the yippy dog that always barks at every car that goes by, it's that same principle of really nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna listen nearly as much. It's it's the walk quietly with a a big stick kind of mentality. I mean, when when you want to stand up for yourself, it is this truth of knowing that I I can, I can choose to say nothing and a lot of the times that is far more powerful than anything I could say. If you're gonna say something ugly to me.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  And then I just let it hang.

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Oh, it's one of the most powerful things you can do is to look at them as if there's nothing that you said that could ever harm me. And then they just don't do it as much. You're telling them it's not going to be fun for you if you go down this road with me.

• 13:30Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. Where did you learn that?

• 13:32Speaker 00

  A lot of it is my upbringing. So I, in the book, I talk about my, I'm the oldest of four. I'm a fifth generation trial attorney, so I've seen a lot of trials, heard a lot of trials, and I just had a weird childhood where, a wonderful childhood, where I get picked up from school, like get put in the corner of my dad's deposition while he finishes, or to watch the end of a closing argument. Then as the oldest of four, had a lot of experience resolving conflict, plenty of conflict between brothers and sisters. I'm the oldest, have my sister and then my two younger brothers. And then a lot of it is, you'd think it was law school, but it's not. You have trials, but it's, trial is probably one of the most important ones

• 14:16Speaker 00

  because it's, let's say you're my witness. And let's say you're opposing, you're against me, you're adverse, and I have to cross-examine you. Meaning I have to prove that you're wrong on something. Now, as you already know, there's another attorney who's going to be ready to jump in and object to every question I have. You have a judge that's going to roll in the evidence of if my question passes. You have a bailiff court reporter. And then there's probably 12 people if we're in district court in the state of Texas that are going to all be listening to everything that I do. And it's not so much the question I'm asking, it's how I'm asking it. So I could be saying something, and let's say the other person objects, judge rules against me.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  If I act like I'm really upset about it, they're going to think, oh, that's bad for his case. If I, if you say something and I act like it really hurts me and I get mad, like, oh, that's not true.

• 15:10Speaker 00

  They're gonna know, oh, this is actually bad for his case. It's this way of processing information with the understanding that there are other people in the room. Even if you don't know it, even if you're not seeing it, there are other people that are always paying attention to what you're doing.

• 15:24Speaker 02

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• 15:36Speaker 03

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• 15:40Codie Sanchez?

  So trial almost sounds like it's like communication poker.

• 15:44Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to play the hands that you're dealt. So let's put it at that. You know, I can't, I can't choose better facts. I can't choose the law that I'm wanting to use. And the same way, it's not really winning. I mean, you might have a better hand than me, but it's just how I play it.

• 16:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. And can I give it away or not?

• 16:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:04Codie Sanchez?

  Fascinating.

• 16:04Speaker 00

  Well, and the thing is, people think that trial is this whole gotcha game. It's not. Everybody knows everybody's facts before you go in. None of it's a surprise. None of it. I know all your bad facts. You know all of my bad facts. We all know each other's bruises. It's just who can, who can play the fiddle better. And it's, it's a weird situation in which when I ask you a question, I'm also wanting the jury to hear what you say and how that compares with the facts that I have. So a lot of the tools that I teach about framing conversations, it's the same way of how I would frame a question or how I'd give a big roadmap or how I would kind of make you say what I want you to say or how I have an open or closed in a question. It's all kind of the same principles.

• 16:48Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. Do you use the principles with your wife too?

• 16:52Speaker 00

  No.

• 16:52Codie Sanchez?

  She call you, she call you out?

• 16:54Speaker 00

  She's also an attorney.

• 16:55Codie Sanchez?

  Oh.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, we went to law school together. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And she knows immediately if I'm trying, she'd say, don't cross examine me.

• 17:02Speaker 00

  I guess very, very quick. She's very quick to say that. And so it's, there's a certain style of cross examination where if you start to just steam them out, it's like, nope, you can't.

• 17:12Codie Sanchez?

  What would that sound like?

• 17:14Speaker 00

  Use short little statements. So typically in TV, you see the wrong stuff. TV is all so fake when it comes to questions. Isn't true whether, you know, isn't true on or about December 21st, 2024, you were at the Buc-E's in Bastrop, Texas? Yes or no? You're never gonna get that that kind of answer from somebody. And you've seen it like at the Johnny Depp trial. Like, people ask really bad questions. Really, the best cross examination aren't questions. They're very short statements. And so maybe I'm wanting to draw out that the car that you saw that weekend was red.

• 17:54Speaker 00

  And so I'd I'd say something like, you were out that weekend?

• 17:58Speaker 00

  You had to say, yeah, you see, I haven't, I didn't say yes or no. I'd say, you were out that weekend? Yeah, saw a car.

• 18:04Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 18:05Speaker 00

  Car, car was red. And then sometimes they go, well, you know, I don't know, I really don't. And they start going on and on and on. Says, witness is trying to run on you, trying to make you look bad. And all you do is just come back, red, the car was red. Yeah, so it's really easy to do that in, let's say, the kitchen table. If you're like wanting to make a point, but that'll get you in trouble.

• 18:24Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, if your wife's an attorney.

• 18:26Speaker 00

  Mm hmm, yeah, yeah, she doesn't, she doesn't know any of that. She could, she catches that real quick.

• 18:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, my husband does the opposite. He does the CIA method, which is often saying things like, um, oh, um, like, I'll be like, hey, you know, did you do X, Y, and Z? And he'll be like, X, Y, and Z? And then I'll be like, yeah, you know, when I said that we were gonna do this? And eventually he'll just keep asking the question back like, oh, did I do that? And finally, I'll, I'll either just get annoyed and walk away because I don't think he's understanding me. And it works beautifully.

• 18:54Speaker 00

  Like the mirroring?

• 18:55Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, exactly. And it can set now that I'm on to it. But he got me for years with that.

• 19:01Speaker 00

  Years?

• 19:01Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I think I was a slow on the uptick. It's like, never mind.

• 19:04Speaker 00

  That's funny.

• 19:04Codie Sanchez?

  I just, I'm just not gonna get engaged. One of the things that I liked about what you talked about is it's on my 2025 list. And I think it is for a lot of people to do less complaining, to have less negativity in their lives, you know? And I've heard you talk before about what to do when somebody is complaining. And it was totally counter to everything that I've thought to do.

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 19:30Codie Sanchez?

  When people are complaining. Can you tell me what do you, what do you do when somebody's complaining and you don't want them to keep going?

• 19:38Speaker 00

  When somebody is complaining, you want them to stop. The trick is to make them keep going. Because if you haven't heard the end of it, you haven't heard all of it. Meaning that there's a source of it that they haven't told you. You're only hearing the symptoms of it. Think of, so I have a seven year old and a five year old. My daughter can complain about the food, about what she's wearing. She's, she don't wanna do this, she don't wanna do that, and she starts to whine. It's not about the food. It's not about what's going on, it's that she's tired. It's just like at your base need. Some people, we know this, me included, everybody. All of a sudden, you feel grumpy, you feel irritable, you're just hungry.

• 20:20Speaker 00

  So there's always like this spot that the issue that you're voicing is rarely the issue. So when somebody is complaining to you, it's, what I like to say is, what else? There's one phrase that I like to use is what else? Because they will find something else, but then they kind of run out of steam. And then you transfer, once you feel like they're out of steam, because that's, you gotta, you gotta let them out. You have to let them get it all out, or they're not gonna listen to you, period. And so as soon as they get it all out, it's this idea of, um, what do you think we should do? As soon as you try to like start getting them to think of solutions, but make it to where they're the ones that are proposing the solutions. If you were to ask, well, what do you think the next step is?

• 21:05Speaker 00

  Or my favorite is, well, what's the other part of you say? What's the other part of you say? Because we all have two different parts. There's a part who believes in it, and the part who wants to complain. The part who wants to be positive and the part that wants to be negative. And so what you're just hearing is the negative part. And when they kind of get it all out, and then, once you feel like they're at a good pausing position, you say, what's the other part of you say? And they'll go, well, I mean, you know, he probably didn't do that on purpose. I mean, and if I were him, and then all of a sudden, the dynamic changes. Because you heard the negative, the positive's still there. There's always is, you just have to ask, what's the other part of you say?

• 21:45Codie Sanchez?

  Interesting. What about, does that work always? Like, you know how, do you ever get in a complaining loop yourself? Where you find yourself kind of repeating about the same thing that's happening in the world? I think we all know somebody who does that.

• 21:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:00Codie Sanchez?

  And at some point, I'm not so sure that it's not that we don't know the issue. It's just that we get habitually complaining. So is that just me being impatient? Are we just being impatient that we're not asking what else, what else, what else? And if we kept asking, then you might actually be able to break the habit loop? Or is there a habitual thing that just sometimes, even if you get to the root, you can't solve it?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  For me?

• 22:25Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 22:27Speaker 00

  I'm quick to acknowledge when I'm grumpy.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  I'm quick to acknowledge when I'm tired, like the basic human emotions. Most of the time, when you're in that continuous complaining loop, there's a basic emotion, a primal feeling that you have not acknowledged in that moment of, I'm irritable, I'm grumpy, I don't like, you know what? I didn't like how I looked in the mirror this morning. And so all of a sudden, I'm just gonna, that's gonna color my day. My hair's not doing how I want it to go. I don't like, and so it's just, you've already decided before that day started, you don't really like that day. So I, um, I used to wear this, I still have it, Whoop is a band. And so it would have this green, red, yellow on it.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  And I got to wear, if for some reason it was yellow, I was gonna have a yellow day. And if it was red, my day was already terrible. Like, and that was first thing in the morning. I was like, oh, it's gonna be a terrible day anyway, I'm red. Like, I felt like I was back in grade school and you had to like pick your color, you know, from the, the chart. And so if it wasn't gonna be a green day, well, then wasn't it gonna be a good day? And that was me, that's nothing on Whoop. Uh, and so it was kind of that idea where, okay, how do you get out of this continual complaining? It's usually from an unrecognized, basic need of hunger, attention, you're thirsty, something that's very, very basic that you just haven't given attention to.

• 23:52Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I felt the same thing. I have an aura ring and at first I would feel the same way. But then, uh, my husband and I started acknowledging it and I would just, we would make a joke. We'd be like, well, I was at 50% last night from sleep, so I'm broken, barely gonna make it, probably not gonna, I'm not gonna last the rest of the day. And you kind of acknowledge that if instead you can acknowledge that part of you that's. Not happy about what's happening by making a little joke. It helps me for some reason.

• 24:18Speaker 00

  Well, the reason why, yeah, I think that's perfect. It's because that that means you have a lot of self-awareness. Whenever you can use the phrase.

• 24:25Codie Sanchez?

  Tell Chris that. Yeah, we'll tell my husband.

• 24:26Speaker 00

  If you like, uh, is I use the phrase, I can tell. So before you begin your sentence, begin with, I can tell. Let's say you and I are together and we just get home and you want to tell something to me. I just had a long day. And the last thing I want to do after kids are in bed, dinner's done, is handle this problem that you've been waiting on the whole day to tell me. And because that happens, I'm sure with you and your husband, you wait till the, uh, it's, you haven't seen him all day. And then when he's dead tired or you're dead tired, he brings something up. And this is the worst time to do it. He's, he's waited until you, you have 10% left

• 25:12Speaker 00

  for a hundred percent of a conversation. And that's, that's a bad recipe. When you can just say, I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. Like, that is immense self-awareness. More powerful than you realize than if you go, okay, I guess we're doing this. All right, and then you just get grumpy, then the outcome is hardly ever productive. But when you're able to say, I can, I can tell that's making me defensive. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell I'm getting upset. I can tell I'm getting annoyed. I can tell I'm getting frustrated. I mean, it's whatever emotion you're feeling, if you can label it with the, I can tell, and you're getting it out, then you're not acting on it. There's a difference between you saying something and me acting defensive. That's not true. I didn't say that. What do you, that's acting defensive.

• 25:56Speaker 00

  That's becoming the feeling versus you saying it and me going, I can tell I'm getting defensive. Like, that is far more powerful than actually working.

• 26:06Speaker 00

  It out.

• 26:07Codie Sanchez?

  And is that sort of how you, is that how you manipulate emotional responsiveness? So that you're not the one that's always sort of being ping ponged emotionally is awareness? And then a statement about awareness?

• 26:18Speaker 00

  Yes. Because as long as you are, the first is to recognize that feeling. That sounds a little woo woo, but it's, it's.

• 26:25Codie Sanchez?

  We're in Austin.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, come on, yeah, then it's one on theme. It's, we call it granola. So is, if you're feeling that in yourself, I mean, you know, when you're getting upset. I know and I can feel it in my, in my neck and my ears that I'm getting tensed up. But if you can label it and put it out loud, it's, it helps because then the other person isn't guessing. So you're gonna have a more productive conversation when you're able to get that feeling out loud. It's labeling the emotion is not that difficult. The people that feel like they don't have time for it are the people that also don't have time for productive conversation.

• 27:01Codie Sanchez?

  Oof, that's a good line and also hard. Yeah, we, we had a therapist for a while that did that. There was some fancy name that I can't remember, but something along the lines. So there was like this wheel. Have you seen it with all the different emotions?

• 27:11Speaker 00

  There's a lot of wheels.

• 27:14Codie Sanchez?

  This is why I'm in finance, I want a spreadsheet. Anyway, the, the wheel, it was so like, if you're struggling, you're starting to get activated. You know, you're upset with your spouse. She would make us pause and then say, what do you feel in your body right now? And at first I was like, oh my God, like this does feel super woo woo. This is so annoying. And then she would have us name it. So she'd be like, my neck starts to get tightened and I crack my neck when I'm doing this. I start to move my feet around my, I might crack my knuckles and that's my little sign of I'm starting to get.

• 27:44Speaker 00

  You do that.

• 27:45Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I might do that. My husband will clench his, his jaw when he's starting to feel that way. Yeah. And, and she's like, and that is your notice that you're starting to get in flight or fight. And so because of that, then I can go, ha, sorry, I'm, can I, I'm gonna get up and pace around for a second. Cause for some reason I'm starting to get agitated. So that's really interesting, but I've never then said that word where I own it.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, when you claim it, when you claim it, you control it.

• 28:14Codie Sanchez?

  As opposed to like, you are making me.

• 28:16Speaker 00

  Internalizing it and saying, you caused me. I mean, it's, there's nothing, the feeling, the feeling is natural. Everybody just feels it. You can't, I can't, you could hit me and it hurts. I can't stop that. Um, but if you decide that you are that emotion, well, then you act on that emotion. But if you get it out, in other words, I say it out loud, it helps you. Now, now you have that emotion that like, we've put it on the table. Hey, that topic, that's here out there, that makes me angry. And so, and that's, that's saying that this is making me angry. I'm not saying you are making me angry. I could say this topic, this conversation, this issue, that statement. And I'm, I'm detaching the personalization from it, which means I'm not trying to attack you and say, you're not making me.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  So you can't make me feel anything. But if I can say it out loud, when you claim it, you control it.

• 29:08Codie Sanchez?

  That's really good. What about, you talk a lot about how to respond to toxic people or bullies. What is the way as an adult to deal with a toxic person or a bully?

• 29:25Speaker 00

  When you're dealing with bullies, we all know from growing up, it's these people that have unmet needs from when they were growing up. Same thing in everyday workplace. When you're dealing with somebody belittling you or being rude or condescending. When they do that, what I want you to do is to ask them a question. And it's a question that they're not going to be used to. And it is, you're asking them to say it again. Whenever you ask them to repeat it, it's something they were not, number one, they weren't expecting it. Number two, they're not going to want to do it because it, the first effect is gone. You, you've already blown out the candle. They don't want to have to relight it.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  It's this idea of, I already said the bad thing. Oh no, they didn't, I didn't get the reaction, what I want. I didn't get that hit of dopamine. I didn't get that, that self gratification. Instead, if you ever say something ugly as a bully or somebody who's being ugly in the workplace, and I say, I, can you catch, can you say that again? I didn't catch all of that. Can you, can you repeat that for me? It is not nearly as fun for them to second go around. And whenever that happens, if they have the guts, which they probably won't, but if they have the guts to repeat it, then you ask a question of intent. Like, did you, did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? Did you say that to make me upset? Did you want that to hurt me?

• 30:55Speaker 00

  You can begin with, did you? Or how did you expect me to respond to that? How did you feel when you, when you said that to me? These are things that, again, just like we talked about, you're not catching it and throwing it back. It hasn't even reached your doorstep yet. Because all you've done is just taken that spotlight that was on you and just go, look, put it right back on them. Because it's a mirror. That's all, that's all you're doing. Whenever you do that.

• 31:24Codie Sanchez?

  It's really good, because I was looking up statistics prior to this. And I knew that there was a lot of, I love a statistic. Although these days, who knows what's fact or fiction? But what the internet was telling me, which is always a dangerous place to start, is that for young people today, that there was a couple of studies done by Boys and Girls Club that like forty-eight percent of kids under twenty experience bullying on a monthly basis. Which seemed like reasonable, maybe a lot. Then what surprised me is the number of adults that say that they get bullied, which is more like thirty to thirty-nine percent, based on two different studies.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  That surprises you?

• 31:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I guess so. I, I, I can't imagine using the word bully, maybe.

• 32:06Speaker 00

  Maybe that's it.

• 32:07Codie Sanchez?

  Maybe, to me, there's some usage of the word bullying as an adult that feels like you're almost giving them power. Like, you can't, you can't bully me. You could be ugly, you could be rude, you could be inappropriate. But why would I label you? Because the way that I visualize a bully is like somebody big, kind of angry.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Doing your lunch money.

• 32:27Codie Sanchez?

  Right.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:28Codie Sanchez?

  Like, I don't know, I'm too old for that now. But, but then I saw how people reacted to your videos about adult bullying in the workplace. And it feels like a lot of people feel like they are bullied frequently. Have you found that?

• 32:44Speaker 00

  I have. One would be. It's you and I probably do not live the same life that they do.

• 32:51Codie Sanchez?

  Not for sure.

• 32:52Speaker 00

  Let's put it that way. We're entrepreneurs. We own our businesses. A lot of people do not. And they work for other companies and peoples and hospitals and schools and you name it. And they are part of that structure and that infrastructure that does not encourage, let's say, growth. They know that the job they got, maybe they work at a refinery. It's a job they're gonna have for the rest of their life. Nothing wrong with it, but that's not to say that there are people that we can call bullies. They might not steal your lunch money, but they will steal your self-esteem if they can. There are people that you may not call a bully, but they'll certainly boss you around. There are people that they don't care about your feelings. It's not a punch to the face. It's a punch to the ego. It's a punch to your self-confidence.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  People have no problem stealing that and taking that away from you, from condescending behavior. And it's sometimes the people you're related to, especially the people you're related to. That makes it even harder. And so I think the biggest response from the bullying, which you, I agree. I think that's a fair question of, I thought we were kind of over this. I thought bullying was for, was for the kids. Is that we're all the same kids. We're just.

• 34:04Codie Sanchez?

  Tall.

• 34:04Speaker 00

  Look older. We got hair in weird places.

• 34:07Codie Sanchez?

  Or not.

• 34:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, or not. Or not.

• 34:10Codie Sanchez?

  You look great. Yours is good.

• 34:12Speaker 00

  There you go. I'm working on it. That's the thing. We're the same exact people in high school. Rarely have they changed. There's some have, college, law school, wherever you went. Everybody's mostly the same person. And so.

• 34:27Codie Sanchez?

  So, so really, we shouldn't be surprised when there's bullying behavior in the workplace because we're all kind of just giant adult kids and people are struggling with this every single day.

• 34:36Speaker 00

  The world is one big high school. One big high school. And it's from the haves and have-nots. Who's the, the pretty, get ready with me in the morning, popular?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Girls to the, let's go get our gains and eat a dozen eggs while we work out our calves. You know, I don't know. So.

• 34:58Codie Sanchez?

  Nobody wants to see either of those from me.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:00Codie Sanchez?

  You could maybe.

• 35:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, you know, I'm working on it. But yeah, it's, it's, it's all the same spectrum. But there definitely is that segment of people who would say, yeah, in some way, I am, I feel bullied. I'm pushed around and I, I, I don't feel good about it. And I can tell you from the amount of people that have been so wonderful and so kind and have given the messages of, I have a bully at the workplace. I have a mother who pushes me around. I have a sister-in-law who I don't want to have to see. There's all kinds of behaviors that are the unmet needs. And it's so funny, Cody, to see that when we get older, how much of that's resembled from our parents?

• 35:44Speaker 00

  How much resembles of that from the people that we were around that we didn't know when we were kids?

• 35:50Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, sometimes I think about, you know, have you ever met somebody who's just great at comebacks? Like they're just like, sometimes I think, remember that show Entourage?

• 35:59Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 36:00Codie Sanchez?

  I always liked Ari because people would say terrible things to him.

• 36:04Speaker 00

  I think that was right when we were in.

• 36:06Codie Sanchez?

  We weren't probably similar ages.

• 36:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, that was right in the middle of, beginning of college.

• 36:10Codie Sanchez?

  Middle school, high school, fuck, I don't know.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  I was, I was probably older.

• 36:13Codie Sanchez?

  I don't know. How old are you?

• 36:15Speaker 00

  I'm thirty-seven.

• 36:15Codie Sanchez?

  Okay, thirty-eight.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  I'm thirty-six.

• 36:17Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, okay.

• 36:17Speaker 00

  Dang, I forgot.

• 36:20Codie Sanchez?

  I thought only us women do that. You went older. See, us women, I still feel thirty-six when I'm thirty-eight.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  I don't, I'm cool with getting old. So I never, I always think I have to scale back.

• 36:32Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 36:32Speaker 00

  Is what I typically have to do.

• 36:34Codie Sanchez?

  Well, I, I remember watching Entourage and how he would respond. And he would always have these amazing comebacks. And I was never that type of human. I think like a lot of us, you know, somebody says something really terrible to you and you think in your mind, I'm gonna do all these things. I'm gonna say it back. What you actually do instead is nothing. That's usually what I do. I just like, in my head, I'm saying everything. And in person, I'm collapsing and not saying anything very cute or smart back. And so I was wondering, when somebody comes at you with an insult, how do you do quote unquote comebacks as an adult?

• 37:09Speaker 00

  Hmm. You give it about five to eight seconds of nothing.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Hate that. They'll hate that. I know, I know it feels uncomfortable to you, but it is one of the most powerful moves you can make. When somebody is insulting you, where you lose is you send the zingo rack back. So let's say you're at a three and they send you something that puts you at a five. You have a choice. Do I rise to the level of it or do I keep it there? Cause if you rise to the level of it, then you just justify them to go to a, a level seven. And it, it ratchets, ratchets itself up to where really the person who speaks loses. They're the first up to apologize. The, that's all, like there's this unspoken rule of who has to apologize first in any relationship. Yeah. Uh, or who's expected.

• 37:59Speaker 00

  And it's typically the person who spoke the last because they're determined to say the, the worst thing. Cause that's how they win. They have to say the, the mean thing. They have to throw it right back. So that's, that's how they win the argument. But insults in particular are ones that when you give it five to seven seconds of nothing. Mm hmm. It just lets those words fall. A lot of the time, that's all it takes because they have to hear their own ugliness out loud. They were hoping that you would catch it, Cody. That's it what they're hoping. They're hoping you're gonna go boom, boom, and just send it right back to them. And then when they get hurt, they're gonna go, oh, that hurt me. How dare you? Like, that's what they're wanting. So it allows them to play the victim. Yeah. Allows them to, to, to play that card.

• 38:44Speaker 00

  But when you just let it go, that's the biggest thing. You talked about it earlier of this.

• 38:51Speaker 00

  Whenever you can, it is a big power move when you can clue into somebody that what they say could not ever threaten you. Hmm. It is such a move that doesn't matter what you tell me. It's not a threat to me. You wanna raise your voice? That doesn't impress me. Hmm. It's, it doesn't, um, impress me much. It is, it, it doesn't matter. Whatever it is, that, they can't do anything with it. I don't care what you tell me. Hmm. It's not gonna threaten me. It's not gonna make me rise up. And that's the person who's always controlled and the other person will always look unreasonable.

• 39:26Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, that is a real superpower. So, okay. So, somebody says something ugly to you. You pause three to five to seven seconds, something like that. And then what? What if they come back?

• 39:37Speaker 00

  Cool. So, when they insult you, number one, I want you to give it five to seven seconds and nothing. Number two, you're gonna ask a question of intent or outcome. What were you looking for when you said that to me? A lot of the times, that does nothing for them. They're not gonna do anything. They just will stammer over themselves. Number three, it doesn't matter what they tell you or give you, just walk away. That's that ending part we were talking about of just, just let it go. There's nothing that they can do with that anymore. They call you names in hope that you will say something worse. That's generally what it, what it is. But they say that for, for their own fight or flight.

• 40:19Speaker 00

  When they call you a name, it's because most of the time they're feeling something that they wanna cause you pain. They want that to hurt. Same thing with somebody who's on the phone with you and they go, you know what? I'm outta here. Click. Or I can't, get me outta here and they leave the room. That's their, that's their flight. It's the same thing. They, they say, it's like picking up a, I don't know, picking up a pen and wanting to throw it at you. Instead of an object, I'm using my words. Same thing. I want the same exact result, same intent.

• 40:48Codie Sanchez?

  You know what I really liked about the book and really all of your work? Is you can apply it certainly to difficult, ugly conversations. But you can also, it seems like, really elevate your power through it as well. And so, you know, I was thinking about high-performance communication. And, and I was wondering, one, can you tell if somebody is going to be a high performer? Or going to be successful based on the way that they communicate?

• 41:19Speaker 00

  A thousand percent. And I'll tell you, the biggest key is their pace. How fast or slow they respond. If you ask me a question, or let's say I'm interviewing.

• 41:32Speaker 00

  And you ask me an important interview question and I immediately respond, yeah, that's probably true. You know, I'm thinking, and again, this is in my experience, and I'm just,

• 41:42Speaker 00

  What it's indicating is I didn't really listen all the way. Because it's possible I missed the low hanging fruit. I missed the whole point of this. Because it's not just the experience and the words. It's how you handle the present. Versus if you ask me a question and all of a sudden, all of a sudden I went.

• 42:04Speaker 00

  In my experience, and then I went on and I slowed down my words. All it says is I am controlled. I'm not emotionally reactive. It's the same people that, and this is not to step on anybody's toes. If you cuss in every other sentence, what you really indicate is I am emotionally sensitive. It's I'm over seasoning my food. I don't have any other words to explain how I'm feeling or what I'm doing. So I just expect that throwing a curse word right in front of it is going to make it more impactful in some way. But it also dilutes the message. Because that's not what anybody hears.

• 42:45Speaker 00

  So it's kind of that same exact concept, the pace of your conversation. The difference between if I was going to say, I already told you I'm not going to do that, Cody. I already told you I'm not going to do that. Versus I already told you I'm not going to do that. Like that right there is, who sounds more in control? Who sounds like they can be relied upon? Who sounds like this is a person who knows what's happening? Who sounds like the person who's cannot be moved? It's always the slower.

• 43:21Codie Sanchez?

  How do you work on your inflection in order for people to take you seriously? Because you have incredible pacing, inflection, presence, eye contact. That is hard, I think, for a lot of people to do. What advice would you give somebody who doesn't think too much about the way they say things, but only thinks about what they say?

• 43:44Speaker 00

  Oh, that's a good question. Number one is you want to use a tone that goes down. So if you pictured it, for your mind listening, if you pictured it on a graph, you want to start at like a five and then you kind of go down to a two. So you use it in a tone of, let's say, like at the table. And I was gonna ask you to pass me the salt. I wouldn't say, can you pass me the salt? As if like, you don't know what it is. I'm gonna say, can you pass me the salt? So you're going down with it. Every time, person who goes up on the inflection, it sounds a lot more uncertain, unsure. So you wanna kinda end downward and slow your words down. Two for eye contact.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  And I know, we have a mutual friend, Vanessa, I know she also talks about this. People are much more forgiving if you don't keep eye contact, eye contact the whole time. You can look around. But as long as you end the last bit of your sentence with eye contact, nobody will know the difference.

• 44:43Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, interesting.

• 44:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, so if you, I have people, when I trained, teach every one of my clients for deposition. I'll say, look, this video, it's gonna be recorded. So I want you to try and end all of your sentences looking forward. So it doesn't look like you're looking all over the place. Because when you do, then it looks like you're trying to hide. Or worse, don't look at me. Anytime you get a question, don't go, uh, and look at me. Don't do that. So I need you to keep looking. And it's, I can look all around this room, but it's not to the very end of my contact. End of that sentence, that I make that eye contact, you'll never feel like anything else is, is different. But three would be, the slower your words come out, the more intentional they sound. And you don't wanna use the filler words, the ums, the ahs.

• 45:29Speaker 00

  It's fine for everyday communication. If you and I wanna um and ah it up, we can knock ourselves out. Nobody cares. But when you need that high-performance communication, you need to get rid of all the filler words that water down your sentences and just serve them neat.

• 45:44Speaker 02

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• 45:56Speaker 03

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• 46:00Codie Sanchez?

  It's interesting because like I'm doing it right now. When I'm thinking about something, I don't typically have eye contact because I'm usually listening.

• 46:09Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:09Codie Sanchez?

  When I have eye contact, it's something I have to work on quite a bit, actually. When I'm really pondering something, I look up or I look down in order to get my words correctly. But it's interesting, I wouldn't ever end that way, I would always start that way. So maybe naturally I got lucky with that one. But the ability to speak quickly without filler words, I think is super important.

• 46:32Codie Sanchez?

  You talk smoothly, I wouldn't say you talk slow, though. I guess I suppose, as opposed to a lot of people, including me, you talk slower.

• 46:41Speaker 00

  Right.

• 46:42Codie Sanchez?

  But there is also a real fine line between somebody who doesn't communicate concisely and somebody who communicates concisely but slowly. So if somebody's listening to this, how do they determine, hey, I'm just talking smooth, uh, smooth but slow? Versus, I'm just talking too slow and not getting to the point?

• 47:05Speaker 00

  Oh, we usually can tell that by the frustration of the other person.

• 47:10Codie Sanchez?

  The feedback?

• 47:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, the other person will start doing what we talked about. You start popping your knuckles and breathing out your nose and getting frustrated because it's creating that anxiety in the, in the conversation whenever you're, you're doing that. I think that everybody right now, at this, this point of our life, we really are searching for calm energy. You, you want a leader to lead, they have calm energy. The, the high performers, the people who are relied upon, they say, you know what? I know that Cody is, she knows what she's doing. Oh, I don't know what's going on, thank goodness Cody does. It's because of the calm energy. You think of any movie you've seen. Or you think of anybody in combat. It's the leaders have the calm energy.

• 47:56Speaker 00

  They do not respond emotionally to the chaos. And those are the people that people look to. And they look for that in everyday conversation. There's a reason why when you go into your grandmother's house, all of a sudden you feel at ease. It's that calm energy that says, don't worry, honey. You're good. Tell me all about it. When you have this sense of you go into one of my favorite restaurants. This is mom and pop. She calls everybody honey. Calls everybody darling, sweetie. It's like, yes, I just love. We need that. We really do. More than you think. We need that calm energy. When you're around these people that are always anxious, always go, go, go. Always wanna just, you gotta 10x everything about your life. Like that is, that's a quick way to being really unsatisfied with a lot of, lot of things.

• 48:40Speaker 00

  There's nothing wrong with talking slow. I would say, people say I talk slower in person than I do in my videos because I'm not having a cram. Everything end up 47 seconds. But it's, it's this calm energy that, that people are drawn to like a moth to a flame. Because it's this vibe that you, when you can come into the room and they go, oh, thank goodness they're here. Like all of a sudden, it's this, everybody at the room feels different by your presence. And it's not because you're hyping everybody up. That's great. There's a place for that that is not sustainable. It's the calm energy that leaders show. That means they always know that they're captain of the ship.

• 49:22Codie Sanchez?

  Fascinating. So I'm sure there are many times where you feel super anxious and you feel elevated. And you do not feel like the grounding energy. In fact, you'd love somebody else to be that.

• 49:32Speaker 00

  Right.

• 49:33Codie Sanchez?

  What do you do to prepare yourself to be that calm in the storm? Is there something that you do to re-ground yourself so when you walk in the door to your family?

• 49:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 49:42Codie Sanchez?

  You're different?

• 49:43Speaker 00

  Right. Well, biggest key is I, I really do try to be exactly who I am at home, same at work. But you have to wear a different hat. Like, I get it. It's this, and it's, it's rule number one in the book of Sate with Control. Let your breath be the first word that you say. And I teach it to every one of my clients before they answer a question. And when somebody's asking them a question they don't like, and I take my own medicine. I do the very same thing. When an opposing attorney is saying something I don't like, you better believe I'm using my breath to make sure I'm continually regulating my system when that's all happening. Otherwise, I'm bad at holding my breath.

• 50:28Speaker 00

  That's what happens, Cody, is I'll hold my breath in moments of tension. And then all of a sudden, I realize, why is my body feel like I'm drowning? Well, because you are. I mean, you're preventing oxygen from flowing. That's why everything is tight, and that's why you yell. Because your body goes, I don't know what to do with all this trapped air we got. So we better just shoot it out. That's because you just put it like in a bottle and shook it up. Just waiting for it to pop. But when you breathe the entire time, it's like breathing underwater. You can put me as deep as I need to go. I'm still all right, no matter what the pressure is. So it's a lot of the letting your breath be the first word that you say.

• 51:10Speaker 00

  So wherever your first word would be before you say the, I don't agree with that, or that that's not true, you put a breath. And what it does is it allows your logical and local side to stay at the forefront, where you don't get emotionally swept. And the benefit is, so does that other person. That's what happens when we talk about the, how do you handle insults? When you allow that five to seven seconds, what often happens is that other person, well, all of a sudden, their logical side will come up and go, no, no, no, that's not what I want to say. And they will apologize as soon as they said it. That's not what I meant to say. I shouldn't have said that. What I meant to say was, and they'll adjust it, because they realize they can hear it now. It's not what they want to put off.

• 51:52Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You know, what's interesting is, this is so good for negotiation, too. You talk a lot about just communication and conversations in general. But so much of this, it just reminds me of a mixture of like Robert Greene and also Chris Voss. And have you talked to Chris yet? Oh, yeah. He's got, you guys have that same voice, too. Has he done his radio operator voice for you yet?

• 52:14Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, of course. Yeah.

• 52:16Codie Sanchez?

  Is that like step one?

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, my goodness. And this stuff is, mine, I guess we came at a totally different ways. Mine's more of this like good old country, you know, whatever. And his is this more northern vibe, mob boss type of like, he could, he could, he could convince me to give you, me to like, give him my couch while I sit on it. Like, that's just what his voice can do. So I'm very curious what the actual statistics would be about the importance, importance of voice.

• 52:50Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, it's gotta be high.

• 52:51Speaker 00

  It has to be so high of what it does, because he would be like, I agree, that's a, it is a great couch. I agree, I just, I need your couch.

• 53:00Codie Sanchez?

  He seems like he needs it.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:02Codie Sanchez?

  Well, you know, what's funny is him in particular, I think, I've learned a ton from watching his stuff. And people are gonna learn so much from reading your book, because I, one of my favorite mentors of all time said, if you're not capable of having difficult conversations to the point where you start to enjoy them, because you learn from them, you'll probably never be very successful.

• 53:22Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, that's a good, that's very true. I love that.

• 53:25Codie Sanchez?

  I think it is true. It's the more that you can learn, you say it somewhere. You say something along the lines of, it's an opportunity to uncover.

• 53:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it, it's this idea that if you wanna have a deeper relationship, then you have to have a deeper tolerance for difficult conversations. Like, if you only wanna have surface level conversations, well, I'll show you a surface level relationship. You're not gonna be able to go deep. Like, you, you and your husband have had some probably the toughest conversations. Out of that, you have the closest bond. People that have gone through the hardest moments together and come out of it will always be stronger. So it's this idea that if you shun difficult conversations, life is not gonna be any easier. It's not, it's not the way it works. It's almost, it's the opposite.

• 54:11Codie Sanchez?

  Do you find that this generation, let's call it millennials and younger, are having?

• 54:15Speaker 00

  Who are we, by the way?

• 54:16Codie Sanchez?

  I think we're millennials.

• 54:17Speaker 00

  Oh, really?

• 54:18Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, we're, we're actually like right in the middle. Isn't that like thirty-two and below, thirty-one and below? Nobody knows. It's impossible to determine. But they're younger than us. That's what we know for sure.

• 54:29Speaker 00

  What do they say? Eat? I don't know.

• 54:31Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, Riz. You have Riz. Look at us.

• 54:34Speaker 00

  Aura. Aura? I don't know.

• 54:36Codie Sanchez?

  I don't think that's related. That's unrelated. Wait, but so does this younger generation, do they have a more difficult time having difficult conversations? That's something lots of people talk about today. Young people don't know how to talk to each other anymore. Young people don't want to have difficult conversations. Young people only want to text. Is that true?

• 54:55Speaker 00

  I think some of it is, we're just getting older, so we're getting more persnickety and grumpy about things of this other generation that know what it's like. Another part of it is, I do believe that there's so much transactional communication from text to kids on Snapchat that only communicate by emojis. And you have TikTok and you have every other app that you and I never had. And coming up to see that, I've seen the consequence of that is they don't know how to perform in the headlights. They don't know how to bring up that very difficult conversation. They have a hard time opening up.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  I mean, mental health will always continue to be something. I do think, we talk more, the good news is, we talk more about mental health than we ever have. I feel like we talk more about communication than we ever have. And I mean, all the, all the wonderful things that you put out on your platform of encouraging people to go out on their own, how to take the most out of, not just the wealth of money, but wealth of their life and, and really grow, all the wonderful, wonderful work that you're doing. It is, it's wonderful in the sense of you're able to talk about it and it's now part of the conversation where 10 years ago, 20 years ago.

• 56:09Codie Sanchez?

  Not a part of it.

• 56:09Speaker 00

  It was never a part of our parents upbringing. I mean, it was just, there was no manual, there were no blogs. And so we're able to share the kind of things that we're able to share, truly out of the blessing of the same thing of social media.

• 56:23Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's definitely a two-sided. You know, it's a two sided blessing and curse.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 56:28Codie Sanchez?

  For sure.

• 56:29Speaker 00

  It's a beast.

• 56:29Codie Sanchez?

  But but also, I think that comes down to the point that you just talked about, which is we've talked about this stuff more than ever. I feel like there have to be categorically more narcissists out there than they've ever been because everybody's talking about everybody else that they've ever dated was a narcissist.

• 56:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:43Codie Sanchez?

  And so part of me wonders, do you think that sometimes we are too quick to label people villains or victims? Or to say they're toxic or they're a narcissist?

• 56:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:55Codie Sanchez?

  And we're not. What have you found? You engage with hundreds of millions of people a month.

• 57:00Speaker 00

  The narcissist is never them.

• 57:02Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  The the difficult person is never them. It's always the, oh, my goodness, your content helped me so much with my narcissistic ex husband. Or my narcissistic cousin, or whatever it is. It's just funny how the person they're having a problem with is never themselves. Now, that's not to say there are people that are truly have narcissistic tendencies. And you're exactly right. There is, I've certainly seen it, I know you've certainly seen it, that people are very quick. If you disagree with me, or we have a little scuffle, or we have a breakup, well, you're just a narcissist. All you do is care about yourself. A lot of it's just self preservation. I'm going to say things that benefit me. I'm not going to say things that benefit you. And out of that, we find that to be narcissistic.

• 57:46Speaker 00

  Now, there's certainly tendencies of somebody being manipulative, people lying, people gaslighting. That is a problem. I'm not a psychiatrist. I don't know if anybody here is a psychiatrist.

• 57:59Codie Sanchez?

  Absolutely not.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, so I I'm not one to say if somebody is a diagnosed narcissist or not. I can say 10 years ago, I don't think anybody said the word. Now, all of a sudden, they've popped up everywhere. It's all the same people. We've just decided that's how we're going to label them and categorize it. So it's, you have to be really. Careful with how you categorize people.

• 58:21Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it does seem like that to me because I think these days we're so quick to judge whatever the other side is on every side of the issue. And what I love about your content and what you put in the book is that it's really not so much about the other person being bad. It's almost everything is super reasonable in how you respond. You're not Ari from Entourage trying to make the other person feel bad, actually, which I wanted a little bit of. You're the opposite of that. You're just saying, I'm gonna down-regulate. And like, if you decide to continue to act in a way that I don't like, that's okay. Now, one thing that I, um, I was thinking about, uh, jobs. And I was like, oh, man. You had one video where you talked about what to do when somebody cries in an argument.

• 59:05Codie Sanchez?

  And I need to know two things. One, you gotta tell us what you actually do. And two, what do you think about crying in the workplace? How do you, have you had that happen? What do you do when it happens in the workplace? I had it happen once and I totally, I, I just froze and, and panicked and did everything the opposite of your, of your recommendation. So I need the advice for myself.

• 59:30Speaker 00

  If you find yourself crying, your eyes watering in an argument, this is what you do. Absolutely nothing. Don't you dare, for one second, apologize or be sad or apologetic that you cry. It is, it is part of your natural biology. The higher the tension, the higher the release. That's it. It's, it's, what I say is, it's your stress in a liquid form. That's all it is. And what you need to do is, one, recognize this is not something to apologize for. It's what your body does naturally. Do you apologize when you yell? And not that what you are, it's that you, uh, the act of yelling, it's what you say that gets you in trouble.

• 1:00:14Speaker 00

  Like, you don't apologize when you belt when you sing. It's the same thing. It's just what you choose to come out of your mouth, how you form your words. But- Number one, you don't apologize for it. Number two, label the tears. So it can be, let's say you are at work. It's not the, "I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm crying. Oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed, I'm so sorry." Uh-uh, none of that. Don't ever do that. I don't want to hear that. That is downgrading your own self-esteem. It's not that, "Oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry, I'm so embarrassed, I'm sorry, I'm crying." Nope. You're gonna just wipe them away without saying anything. And if you need to label them, it's gonna be, "These are tired tears. These are grateful tears. These are stressed tears. These are overwhelmed tears. These are tears that care." Whenever you label them, you are claiming the power over them.

• 1:00:59Speaker 00

  It's not a, "I am just so pathetic. Oh, my goodness, I need to just, forget me. Let me be in the background. Don't look at me, please." It is that you have to step into it of understanding what your body naturally does. And if you're the other person, let's say, um, let's reverse this. And I'm the one, for some reason, I'm starting to cry in this argument. Cody?

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  What you don't do is go, "Here we go. All right. Let me guess, you're gonna cry? Yeah, okay. All right, all right, okay. No, no, you cry. Get it all out. Yeah, that's right, I'm the bad guy." That is just making it so much worse. Again, it's biology. You can't help it. It happens naturally. There are people that are just big criers. And to me, that's their superpower. They can feel far more than anybody else can. It's their emotional intelligence on display. That just means they feel a lot. And I find it to be such a down... I find it to be such a disservice when people apologize, when they cry. Because it is, it's part of what makes us human. What's scarier is if you never cry.

• 1:02:13Codie Sanchez?

  That probably is scary.

• 1:02:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's scary. What are you, an animal? Like a ro- even animals cry. Like, were you even robot? That is just not, that's not, that's not real. That's not realistic. So, um, one would be, never apologize for it. You're not gonna say anything. I'm so sorry about this. Two is gonna be that you label those tears. And if you're the other person, you're never gonna make somebody feel bad for it. You're not gonna call them out. If you wanna just nudge a tissue for them, that's it. Don't pick it up and go, here, throw it at them or something. Just be there. And don't stop the communication. If the other person's crying, don't, don't stop. You can say you need a timeout. That's fine. Otherwise, you just keep listening.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  In fact, you say out loud, I'm listening, I'm listening. Keep going, I'm listening. As if, don't worry about this. I'm not paying attention to any of that. I'm, I'm listening, keep going. Like, that is way more empowering than you going, oh, are you okay? You crying? Do we need to have a timeout? Are you, as soon as you're calling attention to it, you've already went out of track.

• 1:03:20Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, because you're almost, it's almost like you're anxious about their emotions. You're like, oh, let me put this away, hide it, put it in a box.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Exactly. Oh, no, we can't see it. Exactly.

• 1:03:28Codie Sanchez?

  That was me, for sure. Totally failed.

• 1:03:30Speaker 00

  And there, but there are also people that use tears to manipulate. And there are people that can whip up tears on a dime to get what they want. But that all the more highlights the importance of that does not change how you are going to talk to them.

• 1:03:45Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Speaker 00

  I'm listening, I'm here, you're good, as if it's not bothering you at all. I mean, it's just, it's just part of biology. You wouldn't do anything different if you scratched their eye. I mean, it's an itch that they scratched because their body told them it does. It's no different.

• 1:04:00Codie Sanchez?

  Don't label it more.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, you don't, you don't say, oh, you need to blow your nose, here we go. It's like, it's just part of what makes us a human.

• 1:04:08Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Well, I think the opposite can happen in the workplace. As opposed to being annoyed, you can almost overcompensate, um...

• 1:04:16Codie Sanchez?

  With kindness in a way, oh, we don't need to talk about this. Oh, I'm so sorry. Oh, let's take a break. Oh, you're right.

• 1:04:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:23Codie Sanchez?

  And and that is sometimes, I think, when tears can be used um from a non-positive perspective, too. But you have to control the frame as a boss, I think, also, and say like, OK, um, you know, exactly what you said, I'm listening.

• 1:04:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, keep going.

• 1:04:37Codie Sanchez?

  That is it's such a good way to do it if you do feel complete endearment and also to say, hey, we're still gonna talk about this.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:04:44Codie Sanchez?

  Whether you need time or not is OK.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Codie Sanchez?

  We gotta have this conversation.

• 1:04:48Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's like a cop with pulling somebody over who starts to cry, thinking the cry is gonna get them out of it.

• 1:04:52Codie Sanchez?

  Ah.

• 1:04:53Speaker 00

  Like you just like, oh, yep, no, we're still we're still gonna address what we're here to address. Now, you can cry, it's all good.

• 1:04:58Codie Sanchez?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:04:59Speaker 00

  I'm here, I'm I'm listening. No, we're starting to we're still gonna have to do X, Y, and Z. Uh, and it's it's a way that I think people find they don't wanna. They can't feel like they're fully themselves in in that moment, so you're gonna have to to let it go.

• 1:05:13Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I did have one employee that had a great line, I thought. She was like, I am super emotional, I feel things a lot. She said, but I have a high emotional metabolism.

• 1:05:22Speaker 00

  Oh, I like that.

• 1:05:23Codie Sanchez?

  So she's like, it might just, I'm having happy tears or I'm having frustrated tears. But I'm actually, I got it out. And now I'm kind of like a dog shaking after, you know, getting attacked by something.

• 1:05:33Speaker 00

  I think that's genius.

• 1:05:34Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I thought it was a great line.

• 1:05:35Speaker 00

  I have to do a lot of the times in depositions. I'm asking questions of somebody and it might be a very emotional. I mean, we're talking about a child, a child who died in the accident. You see how that's very different? I'm going to be as slow as I can, even though there are questions I have to get on the record as part of the case that I have to talk to them about. And there and there's one side, and then there are other people who know they're guilty, not from like a prosecution standpoint, but they know what they've done. And so out of guilt, out of not wanting to be here or just overwhelmed, it's a very intense spotlight moment, they start to cry. And you never go a- a- act exasperated about it.

• 1:06:18Speaker 00

  It's still, you're still gonna have to answer the question. I'm happy to give you all the space that you need. But that's, that's the best way to handle it.

• 1:06:26Codie Sanchez?

  How important is smiling in communication? You smile a lot, even like across your delivery lines. Is that intentional? Is that who you are? And should other people be smiling more as they communicate?

• 1:06:39Speaker 00

  Well, I'm definitely not telling anybody that they should smile more. I'm not walking into that one.

• 1:06:43Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah, that's, you're right, you're right.

• 1:06:44Speaker 00

  Not walking into, not walking into that. You should smile more.

• 1:06:47Codie Sanchez?

  Especially if it's a woman. Come do it in the office. That's a great idea.

• 1:06:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm not saying that, but nothing.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  To the point of, does the activity of smiling help or hurt you? It doesn't hurt. Now, it has to be genuine. Like, for me, I always want to, as part of my life of just who I am, is I really enjoy, through my personality, giving warmth. I want them to feel very warm talking to me. And depositions, when I need to get information from my siblings, when I'm calming them down, growing up. I mean, every step of the way, again, it's that calm energy. How can you feel very warm? When you're warm with someone, they want to be near you. They want to give you more information. They want to work with you. Even on the opposite side of the table, especially in negotiations,

• 1:07:36Speaker 00

  especially in business deals, if I can make the person feel good, separate from the actual deal that is being made, the, the likelihood of the deal getting, being successful just skyrockets. Too many times, I've had it, let's say in the service industry, it's a waitress, it's somebody at the hotel counter, it's somebody who's behind whatever. If I can make them feel good and just give the warmth of my genuine personality, they want to help you. People have, they feel needed when they can be helpful. And when it is that sense of warmth and smiling, it's a whole lot, it's a whole lot better. That's part of the.

• 1:08:19Speaker 00

  You think of like the music. If you could pick out some of the top five people that are influential to you, Cody. And then you put like a song with their name. Think of the people that calm you down. And you can apply like a song or a band of who they would be. Have you seen those pictures that match people to their dog?

• 1:08:42Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:08:43Speaker 00

  And they like.

• 1:08:43Codie Sanchez?

  I think they call that bowser's, right? Where the they look.

• 1:08:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, they look very, they look very similar. And I always find that so funny.

• 1:08:49Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:50Speaker 00

  It's the same kind of concept. You pick the song that goes with that person. And what you'll find is whoever's the easiest to listen to. If it's just always really, really loud and that frequency's high and they're always complaining and the registry's really hot, you don't want to listen to it, at least not for long. And the people that are, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a James Taylor kind of guy. I'm, I'm, that's how I was raised. I'm a Jim Croce, I'm a singer songwriter era. That's how I was raised. And that, that's how I talk. And it's the easy listening, as Time Life would say. That's, that's like my, my kind of classics. Right? And so you apply that and it's just easy listening. You have people that are very hard and rock and stone.

• 1:09:36Speaker 00

  And that's maybe more of a, I don't know, maybe it's a Pearl Jam. Maybe, maybe it's somebody who's a lot more harder off the cuff. Maybe there's some Metallica's out there. I mean, there are people that you, you apply that. That's how you want to listen to them. And that's how long you want to listen to them. So people that are easy to listen to and go, you know, I could, I could put this on the background, I can listen. Versus that I, I honestly can't take much of their personality. It's, it's, I, it's like, I don't enjoy that kind of music.

• 1:10:03Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:04Speaker 00

  It's the same exact concept.

• 1:10:05Codie Sanchez?

  That's actually a great mechanism to use to see if you want to spend more time with somebody or not. Because if I was picturing faces, I had an immediate reaction to a song, which might actually tell you whether this is a friend you want to spend a lot of time with.

• 1:10:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, or a spouse. I mean, or a relationship. It's what's the band that you, you put with them? Because that's, that's the vibe.

• 1:10:26Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, it's a good point. And. There's no right or wrong answers, just right or wrong for you, which I like.

• 1:10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's all it's all a matter of taste.

• 1:10:33Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, we actually, when I first started filming content, when like, maybe you guys are like me, but when I'm seriously thinking about something and you're like, deep in your mind and I'm very, I have a very serious face. So I make this intense face. And so they used to have to put this big, uh, this big sign behind me that just said, smile bitch. Cause I just don't.

• 1:10:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:54Codie Sanchez?

  And so, and, and I realized though, that I think if you can choose almost between, in many instances, hyper competence or hyper likability, I might err on the side of likability more often than I ever thought.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:07Codie Sanchez?

  And this is a perfect example of why, but this is coming from a finance hardo like me.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:13Codie Sanchez?

  Where I thought I would choose hyper competence all the time.

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:11:17Codie Sanchez?

  It's not the case, though.

• 1:11:18Speaker 00

  It is extremely effective. It, it loses its steam faster than likability.

• 1:11:24Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:24Speaker 00

  You, you can do something because somebody's really efficient, you will do it more if you like them. And so it's, people will follow you longer. People will listen to you longer. People are willing to make shortcuts, exceptions. They will make a miracle for you if they like you. And that's not from a position of faking it. That's not what I'm saying. I'm not saying at all. I mean, you know, good and well from our personalities, there's no faking this. People know that's not what.

• 1:11:51Codie Sanchez?

  I'll figure it out real quick.

• 1:11:52Speaker 00

  Exactly. Yeah, yeah. It's just who we are. Now, anybody can call a spade a spade. So I'm not at all saying you have to smile or be warm. And if that's not you, don't, don't worry about it. You always have to be authentic and genuine to yourself. I would say also for me, from even the importance of in trial litigation, I might be sitting down and somebody else is questioning a witness.

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  If the judge rules against me on something, maybe the attorney is going into something we agreed already before the trial strategy, he can't go into. Now, if I object and go, objection, your honor, he can't, you know, he can't talk about this and that's a speaking objection. Don't worry about it. If, if I said something, objection, your honor, hearsay, and the judge ruled against me for some reason and I went. And I acted put out. Now, how do you think the jury is gonna react? They're gonna go, oh, there's something he doesn't want us to know. They're gonna say, oh, he's hiding something. Oh, he's not authentic. Oh, it's not real. Versus me acting like it just doesn't bother me. And so, most of the time, if you can just act pleasant and polite. If you have a hard time doing that, then that's just gonna be a hard life. I find it, in my opinion.

• 1:13:02Speaker 00

  There's a lot to be happy about, but yeah, if you can be. If you smile, it's never gonna hurt you. That doesn't mean it's like, for some people, you constantly have to. I have to remember, oh, yeah, my neutral face is not that likable. There's some that, like my sister, I love my sister. Sarah, if you're listening, I love you. That when she's not smiling, you think she hates everybody. I mean, she has a very hard resting face. But when you talk, she's as pleasant and as happy as can be. So you just have to go with what's natural to you.

• 1:13:41Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, I think, you know, and a lot of what you talk about is you go with what's natural to you, but at least you can choose. If you know the tools on the table, then you could say, hey, listen. My face is naturally angry looking. And so, I don't always feel like smiling, but I do it more because I know this tool on the table works in helping other people like me. And if they like me, then I might get more of the life that I want, because I might be able to walk a little lighter on the world. My husband has the same thing. He has like a very square jaw. He's kind of an intense face. And he will just have people give him a harder time than me, for whatever reason. And a lot of times, I joke that it's because he looks so serious. And I think there's something really to this. And so, if you can steal these hacks, then why not?

• 1:14:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, yeah, if they're just there, why not? Well, there's people who look scarier than other people.

• 1:14:28Codie Sanchez?

  He's a little scary.

• 1:14:29Speaker 00

  I mean, that's probably why. And so, when you have people that go, and it's just part of life. It's the, who you see is who you think they are. And then you actually get to talk to them, and the big, huge guy is the big teddy bear. Or, you know, it comes a million different ways. But anytime that you can just give a little bit of warmth, even if it's a little joke, even if it's a little bitty comment, you're gonna find, you're gonna get more out of it than you ever thought.

• 1:15:04Codie Sanchez?

  What in this book, you have done an incredible amount of work, it seems to me, on learning how humans interact and on being able to share the kind of deep psychological reasons that we do it, but very simply. Are there things that you don't get to talk about as much? Like, I imagine people ask you a lot the same kind of questions because you have these incredible responses to, let's say, like, your top thirty most

• 1:15:33Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:33Codie Sanchez?

  human issues. What do you not talk about as much that you wish you could?

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Listening.

• 1:15:40Speaker 00

  Anytime I've made a video on listening, it's the worst viewed video I ever have. Nobody wants to learn how to listen.

• 1:15:46Codie Sanchez?

  That's true.

• 1:15:47Speaker 00

  They love the stuff I have on how to deal with a toxic personality or a narcissist or how to, you know, how to handle those belittling comments. But they don't want to listen to the how to listen better.

• 1:15:59Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, why is that? Because we think that it's just other people don't listen to us.

• 1:16:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:03Codie Sanchez?

  We don't listen to other people.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  Because the problem isn't us, the problem is them. And what happens is they miss so much of the good stuff in life by not listening. They hear active listening, which I don't even know if I know what that means. But it's for somebody who interviews, for example, if you're only focused on the next question, you're not really listening to what I say. And then it becomes a little inorganic and mechanical. New attorneys do this, very green attorneys. So they might be in a deposition and they'll go, and you were treated by ex-doctor? And while the person is talking, they're just looking down at their next question. And they go, okay. And they read the next question.

• 1:16:47Speaker 00

  But they just missed the low hanging fruit, the wonderful fact that that client or that witness just gave them. And so too often, we were not listening to understand, we're listening to respond. And that's very natural. But that's where, if you can just slow your conversation down to just have the pauses in it, that means I'm fully listening to your question. Just like we talked about, there's a difference between if you said, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I was like, good, it was good, really good. Versus you asking me, hey, Jefferson, how was your day? And I said,

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  It was good, Cody. It was a good day. Like, which one sounds like you actually listened? Which one sounds like you actually absorbed it? It's always the one that has the pauses and it costs you nothing to do.

• 1:17:35Codie Sanchez?

  How do you get people to care about listening more then? Do you just reframe the hook of the video so then it becomes like?

• 1:17:42Speaker 00

  Nah.

• 1:17:43Codie Sanchez?

  No, you just let it.

• 1:17:44Speaker 00

  No, I just don't think they'll, it's, it's always the, it's always the other person. It's like, uh, on, when you're driving, right? Either somebody's going too fast or too slow. They're never going the right speed.

• 1:17:58Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:58Speaker 00

  If, if it's you driving and somebody's on your rear, you're like, what's this guy's problem? If you're driving and they're going too slow, you're like, get out of my way. It's never, it's never about the other person. I find people with the least amount of like emotional intelligence are the ones that drive in the left lane and go slow.

• 1:18:17Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, God, yes.

• 1:18:18Speaker 00

  Like here in Texas, uh, in the US, you have a right lane and a left lane. The left lane is repassing. Right lane is if you're going the speed limit, right? And the people that are in the left lane and go the speed limit or go slower and there's nobody in the right lane, it's the worst. Like it just, now for me, I could never, like it bothers me for me to be in the left lane if I'm not going fast. Like I'll get out of people's way. There's some people who never feel that, Cody. They're just like, I'm just driving. Like they just, no.

• 1:18:49Codie Sanchez?

  They're probably so happy.

• 1:18:49Speaker 00

  I couldn't, they probably have the best life. They really do. But I, I, I wear people's emotions. And so you never, I'm like that person who I don't want to disappoint them or they would feel a certain way if I did X, Y, and Z.

• 1:19:02Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think if there was some way to encourage people to listen more, cool, but nah, it's always.

• 1:19:09Codie Sanchez?

  We haven't broken it yet.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  It's always the, we care about, if we're the pedestrian walking the street, we hate all the cars. If we're the car, we hate all the pedestrians.

• 1:19:18Codie Sanchez?

  You know, I feel like Dale Carnegie's book, the, um, How to Win Friends and Influence People.

• 1:19:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:23Codie Sanchez?

  That's the only listening lesson that really stuck with me was, remember that part where it talks about how if you're sitting down with somebody and he was sitting with somebody kind of famous and he was a nobody. At a dinner and I'm probably messing up the story, but a little, you know, storytelling.

• 1:19:38Speaker 00

  Nobody would know.

• 1:19:39Codie Sanchez?

  Okay, good. So he sits down with this famous person and everybody else is trying to get the famous person's attention. And as he's sitting down with him, all he does is asks him questions. He doesn't tell him anything about him. He doesn't show how smart he is. He does nothing else except ask questions. And then at the very end, he hears this person explaining to another person how he met this fascinating young man at this dinner. When in reality, what was fascinating was just he let him speak about himself the whole time. And I don't know why, but that just stuck with me so much. I was like, that is a superpower to be able to sit and listen to somebody. You don't have to be interesting. You don't have to be smart. You don't have to be good looking. You can just be intent in your listening.

• 1:20:19Codie Sanchez?

  And it's so rare these days that people will, they will think you are fascinated by saying almost nothing except a question.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, the number one instant ability to have somebody like you is you don't even have to like them. You just have to be interested enough to ask them more questions and you use their name. If I use your name, let's say four or five times in conversation, you're gonna go, oh my gosh, I really like this person. It doesn't really matter what we talk about, but if I use your name, Cody, back and forth. And every once in a while I go, yeah, you know, Cody, that's a really good point. Or Cody, what are you thinking about? All of a sudden you go, you know what? This person's so pleasant. They say wonderful things. There's nothing more sweeter than the sound of their own name. If you want people to listen, use their name.

• 1:21:07Speaker 00

  And somebody is talking, trying to overpower a boardroom or a Zoom meeting, use their name. They'll stop. I mean, it's like a deer in headlights. It's the bell that they can't help but listen to. If you keep on and on, on, and you're talking, I say, Cody, you keep going, I say, Cody, you'll stop.

• 1:21:27Speaker 02

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• 1:21:39Speaker 03

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• 1:21:43Codie Sanchez?

  You're right.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's something that it gets our attention every single time and we love it. We can't, we can't get enough of our name. It's like a, like a dog. You say its name and it perks up. It's a thing that they recognize.

• 1:21:57Codie Sanchez?

  I like you more already. You've already said my name four or five times.

• 1:21:59Speaker 00

  There you go.

• 1:22:00Codie Sanchez?

  I'm a huge Jefferson fan.

• 1:22:01Speaker 00

  Right, right.

• 1:22:02Codie Sanchez?

  It was wild. What'd you talk about? I don't know.

• 1:22:04Speaker 00

  I don't know what he said.

• 1:22:04Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, he kept singing this word, Cody, continuously.

• 1:22:07Speaker 00

  Exactly. That's, that's, and that's the point is that if you can ask questions about them and sprinkle in their name, there's nothing wrong with it. It's not manipulative. It's not fake. It is showing genuine interest in who they are. And they will go, I had the most wonderful conversation. They're not going to go, all they asked about was me.

• 1:22:27Codie Sanchez?

  It's weird. I wonder if, if people feel like this, but it does feel intimate to say somebody else's name a lot.

• 1:22:33Speaker 00

  It is, yeah.

• 1:22:34Codie Sanchez?

  Why is it? Because we don't? Like saying like, Jefferson, tell me about this. It just, I guess it is. It's a direct ping at you.

• 1:22:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Codie Sanchez?

  It is, you know, I better say something that needs to be said after the word. I don't know why, but it feels, it feels intimate or irregular.

• 1:22:51Speaker 00

  It's the, it's the straightest connection, right? To their heart is, I mean, you've heard when a super fan to some famous celebrity and they're like, you said my name. Like it is, they can't get away from that because it is just a direct line of who they are. You've, you've, you've, all I have is my name. You can't take that away. It's the one thing I can have. And to have the power of that name be yours and yours alone, and you speak to that, people love it. So even if we begin a conversation and I say, Cody,

• 1:23:28Speaker 00

  you have something hard to talk about. All of a sudden, you're still going to be a little bit more friendlier to me than if we sat down and I said, we have some stuff to talk about. A lot more cold, but if I use your name one or two times, then it's going to get you warmed up. Same thing in like a deposition. You can always say, you know, Mr. Williams, Mrs. Sanchez, whatever it is. But when you use their their name, there's there's nothing better that's going to get them to to perk up. And and the the great thing is when people will actually reciprocate in conversation. What about you? That's awesome, but they're not guaranteed to do that. But everybody loves to feel like they're being interviewed. Everybody loves to be on a podcast of their own.

• 1:24:09Codie Sanchez?

  That's true. That's funny. One of my favorite, I shouldn't say favorite, one of my employees that I love. There are no favorites. They're like children, you know? Every single one of you. Nick, you're at the top of the list.

• 1:24:21Codie Sanchez?

  She always jokes that she sends me podcasts because she's like, you know, they're long voice notes. And and her and it kind of made me chuckle because she's like, everybody, you know, the reason why people take over Zoom meetings. It was a comedian that said it, I think. They're like, the reason why people take over Zoom meetings is because they want to have their own podcast, but they don't.

• 1:24:42Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 1:24:43Codie Sanchez?

  And I I chuckled thinking about that. I'm like, podcasts are a lot of work. Are you sure?

• 1:24:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:47Codie Sanchez?

  But but I understand the the point a lot.

• 1:24:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, same thing at dinners, same thing at a meeting. It's they all want to feel like, how did you get here? How did you become who you are?

• 1:24:58Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. Well, it goes back to your original point on curious questions. You know, I remember when I first started out in investing, coming from journalism. People like, weren't you scared about math and Excel and all of this? And I certainly was. It's not my strong suit. But thankfully, I didn't realize that there there's one real skill set if you want to make a ton of money in investing, and it is asking a lot of questions continuously.

• 1:25:20Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:21Codie Sanchez?

  And never being scared that you don't know the answer because you're you're it's a it's a, you know, zero sum game. You either get all the information to make the best decision or you don't.

• 1:25:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:32Codie Sanchez?

  And and I think life might be like that. Difficult questions equal the right outcome.

• 1:25:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, I what I've found to be true is that people that are in positions of success, and you were to ask them the question of, how did you get that? The answer will be, I asked. I mean, there's just so many times I asked them, "How did you get their number?" I asked them. "How did you get that position?" I asked for it. There's just, it's a fear of not wanting to make the ask. And it's not difficult when you can put yourself as the position of the learner. No matter what, let's say it's a, you're new at the company and you're looking at hopefully getting a raise soon or something. You want to work your way up. Instead of coming into that conversation going, "This is what I want, and I want that."

• 1:26:23Speaker 00

  That's a little bit different from me saying, "How did you get to where you are?" Or if I wanted a raise, you know, how does that happen? Or when you got a raise, how did you do that? You put it them as the teacher, them the Yoda, you the, what is it, Padawan?

• 1:26:40Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, there you go, Skywalker, nailed it.

• 1:26:43Speaker 00

  That as soon as you're able to do that of, "Teach me your ways," sensei, they will give it to you. And they're happy to do it. You ask the people who've made the most money you've ever made. They are generous with their advice, generous with their lessons. Because that's a lot of the time, that's the easiest form of generosity that they can have and they're looking forward to it.

• 1:27:09Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:10Speaker 00

  Even the wealthiest people we know can be extremely alone. And so for them to be able to share a little bit with you, you just have the ability to pick up nuggets.

• 1:27:22Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, advice I got from another mentor of mine was, "If you want to get money, ask for advice. And if you want to get advice, ask for money."

• 1:27:30Speaker 00

  Oh, that's good. I love that a lot.

• 1:27:31Codie Sanchez?

  And I thought that was so true.

• 1:27:32Speaker 00

  That is so true. That's great.

• 1:27:34Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, because often they want you to show them that they are on a pedestal. And then they might actually just end up giving you the thing that you actually want out of it, which is circular, but true.

• 1:27:44Speaker 00

  Or asking them, let's say you're at that workplace, asking the supervisor what they would do in your place.

• 1:27:50Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:51Speaker 00

  If you wanted, if you wanted to move up, up five promotions or whatever, "What do you think I should do first?" And they will give you the roadmap of how to do it.

• 1:28:00Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah. You, I want to kind of end on two things here. You mentioned, you started to mention it. Let's say that you're about to have a really difficult conversation. What are some of the things you absolutely should not do that most people do when they're gonna have one?

• 1:28:15Speaker 00

  Begin with the fluff. This compliment sandwich, what do they call that?

• 1:28:21Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:21Speaker 00

  It's a... The compliment sandwich is a little hard to chew and almost impossible to swallow. It's this idea of when you give the, "Hey, look, we've really enjoyed your time here. We think you're just, I think you're such an awesome person and you're so great, Cody."

• 1:28:39Speaker 00

  "So, listen." And then they deliver the, the bad news. Well, that just means whatever they said before wasn't true. They said the word "but," meaning everything that came out of it didn't mean anything. It's like saying, "I love you, but that's gotta go." Like, everything, it doesn't matter what they said before. It, it's always the end. And so what you do is you leave them to kind of just twist in the wind and it's not nearly as genuine. So instead, what you have to do is lead with the difficult. Trust me, it will make it easier. It only gets harder if you start with the easy and gradually progress to the bad news. When somebody says something like, "This is gonna be hard to hear."

• 1:29:23Speaker 00

  Versus me saying, "Hey, Cody, um, uh, listen, you know how it's been really hard here lately and, you know, we've, it looked this economy, you know, and the economy." It, like, whatever it is, you're just, you keep on going. Versus me saying, "Cody, this is gonna be hard to hear. Cody, this is gonna be hard for us to talk about. This isn't gonna be fun. You're not gonna like this." Or just as simple as, "This is gonna be a difficult conversation." All of a sudden, Cody's gonna ready herself and go, "Okay, it's kind of this, all right, lay it on me." Everybody, you could possibly say that too, has that same power. When you try and babyfoot it around and start with the icing,

• 1:30:06Speaker 00

  you're being disingenuous and what you're saying is, "You're not emotionally resilient enough to handle it." "I'm too afraid to disappoint you because I want you to still like me." In truth, the kinder thing is to say, "I'm telling you this way because I like you."

• 1:30:26Speaker 00

  Or even if you prime the conversation of, "Cody, I'm telling you this because you can take it."

• 1:30:31Speaker 00

  I'm telling you this bad news because I like you. And I have to, I have to give it to you. Then you give the bad news. That's gonna be a whole lot better to start your difficult conversation. Every single time. Whether it's a sensitive conversation, whether it's you need to fire somebody, whether it's you need to talk about a difficult subject. You label that conversation to let them know, rather than them having to try and figure it out of like what's, they're waiting for that hammer to drop.

• 1:30:57Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you know what else is fascinating is every time you do that, you wanna nod back. Like if you say, Cody, this is gonna be a difficult conversation. My initial reaction is like, okay.

• 1:31:06Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:31:06Codie Sanchez?

  Yep, yes, it will be. Like, it feels like truth. You've already got me having confirmation.

• 1:31:11Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 1:31:12Codie Sanchez?

  Verbally or, or physically, so it's interesting.

• 1:31:15Speaker 00

  And you always think the worst.

• 1:31:16Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:17Speaker 00

  If I were to say, Cody, I got bad news. You're gonna think somebody died. Or you might be thinking you're getting fired. Or you might be thinking what, you're gonna think the very bottom of it. And if it is the bottom, then you expected it.

• 1:31:31Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:32Speaker 00

  And if it's not, most of the time, it's not as bad as you think. You go, oh, okay. Oh, that's it? Okay, I can handle that. Like, it's this reverse psychology of you, I can handle that. That's not nearly as bad as I thought it was gonna be.

• 1:31:43Codie Sanchez?

  Jefferson, you talk the most about interpersonal relationships. And not maybe as much about relationships.

• 1:31:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:50Codie Sanchez?

  But if there's a young man or woman out there wanting to have better conversations with the opposite sex, what is the most applicable advice you have for communications from all the things that you talk about?

• 1:32:03Speaker 00

  Well, that's not easy.

• 1:32:04Codie Sanchez?

  I know.

• 1:32:06Speaker 00

  For, when it comes to real relationships that you're wanting to build, one is transparency. Like, the number one killer is the assumed or unspoken expectations. Let's put it in, in everyday life. Most of the time, we text, right? That's, that's how we communicate. When you read into somebody's text and the voice that you hear it in, and you expect it to be ugly or not nice, and it's a, fine. Oh, okay. Oh, yeah, fine. All right, good night. Like, it's one of those as simple as, oh, okay, I guess they hate me. As soon as you get to that point in your life.

• 1:32:51Speaker 00

  Or any time in that conversation, you are are already setting yourself up for failure in communication in the long run. You have to voice what those expectations are. So even if you were to, let's say, text that, if you can quickly text back, did you mean for that to be short? Or did you mean for that to sound upset? And they go, no, no, no, no, I was just in the middle of X, Y, and Z. Or, well, I just didn't like that you said this. Oh, OK, and let's address it. It's this goes back to this fear of wanting to say the the hard thing and said just complaining about it and then later calling them a narcissist.

• 1:33:29Codie Sanchez?

  Exactly. It doesn't work out well, but it's all over the internet.

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:33:32Codie Sanchez?

  So what's better to say, did you mean, Jefferson, to say, to sound upset? Or did you mean, Jefferson, to be short? Or to say, I took it as short? Like, no, it should always be on them.

• 1:33:49Speaker 00

  That, did you mean for that?

• 1:33:51Codie Sanchez?

  For that.

• 1:33:52Speaker 00

  I'm not saying you.

• 1:33:52Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, so don't put their name in there.

• 1:33:54Speaker 00

  Don't don't personalize it.

• 1:33:56Codie Sanchez?

  Good one.

• 1:33:56Speaker 00

  Detach it, detach the personalization. So that way, it's not feeling like it's a you.

• 1:34:01Codie Sanchez?

  And you don't want to take it on yourself because that sounds a little too, I don't know what to say. I I feel like you are being short. That would not sound as smooth.

• 1:34:12Speaker 00

  That wouldn't be dismissive. That might be too much. There's nothing wrong with that. I mean, that's perfectly fine. But the did you mean is giving them the grace of the fact that they did not.

• 1:34:23Codie Sanchez?

  Without internalizing it.

• 1:34:25Speaker 00

  Uh huh. And so it's not even you. It didn't get to the point of me feeling like that. It's just simply, hey, I'm giving you a quick mirror here. Did you mean for that to sound upset?

• 1:34:34Codie Sanchez?

  It's very clever.

• 1:34:35Speaker 00

  Did you mean for that to sound rude? Or between me and my wife, it's, did you mean for that to sound short? Because we're on the go and we're doing things. And sometimes it's like, OK, well, I guess she's mad. Uh, but it's no, it's just I'm dropping off the the kids. I'm running this errand. I'm on the phone, I'm on the phone with the client. I'm texting you while I'm on the phone.

• 1:34:55Codie Sanchez?

  Right.

• 1:34:55Speaker 00

  And so a lot of the times, it's just the did you mean? Because most of the time, they did not mean.

• 1:35:01Codie Sanchez?

  It's wild, though, how those few words change so much.

• 1:35:05Speaker 00

  They change everything.

• 1:35:06Codie Sanchez?

  I know. So you really gotta pay atten- you gotta read the book, you gotta read it twice.

• 1:35:11Codie Sanchez?

  It's an incredible book. I think you've already sold hundreds of thousands of copies. You have people over the world learning how to communicate with a little bit more kindness on both sides.

• 1:35:20Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 1:35:20Codie Sanchez?

  And it's not manipulative, which I really love. We're not in the era of some guys that are, you know, that I knew historically, who taught about seduction and communication. This seems to be in a very wholesome way. Might be your Beaumont roots.

• 1:35:32Speaker 00

  That's probably, you're probably right.

• 1:35:34Codie Sanchez?

  You think so?

• 1:35:34Speaker 00

  You're probably right. Well, thank you, Cody.

• 1:35:36Codie Sanchez?

  If you had to leave people with one thought, like your favorite part of the book that you want them to take with them today, what would it be?

• 1:35:44Speaker 00

  Have something to learn, not something to prove. Whenever you're in a conversation with a friend, with a spouse, significant other, anytime, at work, living room to boardroom, have something to learn, not something to prove. When you set out to prove them wrong, you will most likely get less in return. But when you set out to ask the question internally of where is this coming from? What do I have to learn here? Your conversation's always gonna go a lot better and you're gonna have a better communication and a better relationship, and that means a better life.

• 1:36:22Codie Sanchez?

  So good. I actually always watch out for the guys with the slow southern drawls, because the people who have done the best deals against me, who have just beat me up more than anything, have been smooth-talking Texans.

• 1:36:34Speaker 00

  Oh, you gotta watch out for those.

• 1:36:35Codie Sanchez?

  You gotta watch out. I remember very-

• 1:36:37Speaker 00

  They're up to no good.

• 1:36:38Codie Sanchez?

  They're up to no good. Well, they're also, they always, uh, one of my favorite guys in the world, he's an incredible dealmaker, I won't say his name because he'll get embarrassed, but he's got a real slow southern drawl, and he'll always say, "Well, you know, for a kid from," I won't say, "I'm just a, I'm just a guy from Texas, and I don't really understand that, could you explain it to me?" And then I'll explain it to him, and then he'll proceed to just shred me on the deal.

• 1:36:59Speaker 00

  That's how you know, that's how you know he knows.

• 1:37:01Codie Sanchez?

  That's how you, that's the giveaway.

• 1:37:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's the dead giveaway, that he already understands it.

• 1:37:05Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, I'm just kinda slow. Can you explain that to me again? I'm like, oh, fuck, here it comes.

• 1:37:11Speaker 00

  My favorite is to use is maybe so. Like, somebody says something, no matter if it's an idea, or it could be something mean or condescending, or typically it's some kind of idea, I'll go, well- Maybe so. Like that right there to me is, it's my favorite power move to do because there's not, there's nothing you can do with it. And what happens is the other person will actually start talking and like saying my point for me in many ways. But yeah, you just kind of slowly go, well, maybe so.

• 1:37:42Codie Sanchez?

  It's also the well. That's a good dear friend of mine, Joe from Kentucky. That's what he does. He goes, well, hmm. He just kind of leaves it. Well.

• 1:37:50Speaker 00

  It's a great attitude to have.

• 1:37:52Codie Sanchez?

  It really is.

• 1:37:52Speaker 00

  It goes back to just being in the pocket of, no, I'm not really going to be upset about this. Well, maybe, maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I don't know.

• 1:38:00Codie Sanchez?

  We all need to be a little more southern. Okay, we have one last thing we do on the podcast.

• 1:38:03Speaker 00

  Yes, okay, I'm ready.

• 1:38:04Codie Sanchez?

  Okay, so what we do is you take a couple of minutes, we stand outside, and you write a little postcard to young Jefferson.

• 1:38:13Speaker 00

  Oh, I love it.

• 1:38:14Codie Sanchez?

  Something that you would tell him, and you're going to read it aloud to everybody else. Don't give away too big of a secret. But we'll step out and you write a little postcard to yourself.

• 1:38:24Speaker 00

  Okay. Okay, this is to, I imagined a, like a 10, 11 year old Jefferson, who is the oldest of four at this time. And so, I said, Jefferson, you don't have to carry it. You are good just as you are. I'm so proud of you. With or without it, you're good enough. I love you, Jefferson. That was my letter.

• 1:38:58Codie Sanchez?

  That's so beautiful.

• 1:38:59Speaker 00

  Thank you. Yeah, it's, I've always been the kind that I put a lot on my shoulders really early on. And as an older brother, and I'm like an old, I mean, you know this, I'm like an old soul type of thing. And so there's a part of me that I grew up really quickly and I don't feel like I enjoyed life as much as I could and I put a

• 1:39:27Speaker 00

  I put a lot of pressure on that little boy. Yeah.

• 1:39:29Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, you still picture him?

• 1:39:31Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah, I can see him.

• 1:39:32Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, and with raises, I see him in my son. And so, I mean, I, he, he looks just like me. He acts just like me. And so, to, you know, take his face in my hands and tell him to look at me and tell him he's perfect. And he doesn't have to hold it, he didn't have to carry it, because I can see what he's doing, because I did it, of, you know, trying to put on the face and be the the big brother and everything, for me to tell him you're doing just, you're just as fine. I'll carry it, don't worry. Like, that kind of stuff is, uh, it's also healing that I, in many ways, I'm talking to myself.

• 1:40:09Codie Sanchez?

  It has to be, right? You get to go full circle.

• 1:40:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, and it's, it's really cool.

• 1:40:14Codie Sanchez?

  Oh, it's so beautiful. Well, we do this because I think a lot of times, people get on shows and

• 1:40:19Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:40:19Codie Sanchez?

  lots of followers and people think that anybody's any different.

• 1:40:22Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:40:23Codie Sanchez?

  Or not, you know, we all got that little thing inside of us that we're still trying to make feel like it's okay.

• 1:40:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're all the same, like we talked about. We're all the same little same little kids.

• 1:40:34Codie Sanchez?

  It's full circle, that's right.

• 1:40:36Speaker 00

  It really is, we're all the same, same little kids.

• 1:40:38Codie Sanchez?

  Yeah, but it's beautiful that you share, because then people get to say, man, I look up to Jefferson so much.

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:44Codie Sanchez?

  And simultaneously, they get to know, maybe I might just be like him. Maybe I could be better than him, maybe I could be better than Cody.

• 1:40:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:40:49Codie Sanchez?

  And like, God, that'd be cool, you know?

• 1:40:51Speaker 00

  Yeah, please.

• 1:40:53Codie Sanchez?

  I'm like, mine's a little bar, but like, you're, you can jump in. Jefferson, you're the man, the book is beautiful, the work you do is so beautiful, thank you for being here today.

• 1:41:01Speaker 00

  Thank you, thanks so much for having me, thanks for having me.

• 1:41:02Codie Sanchez?

  Our pleasure. Ah, you guys, I was almost tearing up with Jefferson's ending there, and I hope the takeaway for all of you is that you are so important and you are a big deal to us, that's why we called this the Big Deal Podcast. You're a big deal to me, and it matters to me that you get to share your truth with the world. And I think this podcast will hopefully get you to share it a little bit more easily and to have more people take your message. And speaking of sharing, if you have the chance, share this podcast with somebody that you love. Spread a message of positivity in a world that's not Interested in it. Thank you all until next week. Hey guys, if you've ever thought about buying a business, we've built what I think is the best acquisitions and business buying community and education curriculum in the world.

• 1:41:47Codie Sanchez?

  If you've ever thought about wanting to buy or own a business, or if you want to add more businesses to the mix, it's called the contrarian community. And what this is, is the goal is, we give you the three things that the best business buyers use. Your own advisory team, your own investment committee, and a deal team. We get together each week to review deals live and beat up all the deals that you're currently looking at, while you simultaneously learn the best way possible, which is called modeling by seeing other people put together deals. This is how private equity buys businesses. This is how investment teams work. And we're stealing the methods from Wall Street and giving them to you. If this is interesting to you, go to click the link and you can actually talk to my team direct about if this is a fit or not. We can help guide you. The link is in the show description.