Pod Insights On with Kara Swisher Why Melinda French Gates is Betting On Women in Politics, Business and Tech About this episode Melinda French Gates is a businesswoman and philanthropist, as well as an advocate for women and girls both in the U. S. and abroad. And over the past few years, she’s also become a force in Democratic politics.
Kara and Melinda talk about her new memoir The Next Day, which takes readers through some of the most important transitions in her life, including her very public divorce with Bill Gates and her decision to leave the Gates Foundation; how she is working to offset the impact of cuts to programs like USAID on the health of women and children around the world; where political lobbying works (and it’s not in the White House); and why she thinks it’s essential to get more girls into A. I.
Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher.
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Transcript 10,086 words · 13 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 Was the last time we saw each other, was that at the Recode conference?
0:03 Kara Swisher? Yes, that's where you were impressing me. And I actually turned to your ex-husband and I said, I like you 10% more because of her. And he goes, well, how much you like me? I go, 10%, no.
0:14 Speaker 00 Good for you.
0:15 Kara Swisher? I know.
0:27 Kara Swisher? Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. Today, I'm talking to Melinda French-Gates, who I've known for a very long time. She's one of the top philanthropists in the world, an accomplished businesswoman, and a leading global advocate for women and girls. And in the past few years, she's also become a force in democratic politics. Melinda is the author of a new book called The Next Day, which takes readers through some of the most important transitions in her life, including the death of a friend, becoming a mother, going through a very public divorce with Bill Gates, and leaving the Gates Foundation, which she co-founded with him in order to focus on her own philanthropic efforts in her organization, Pivotal Ventures. After decades of running some of the most consequential philanthropic programs
1:12 Kara Swisher? in the world, she has an encyclopedic knowledge of the trickiest issues in the sector, including what's happening in the government, which has cut back programs significantly. I'm excited to talk to her because she has a wide perspective that's important to understand in this time of change. Our expert question for Melinda comes from my close friend and former partner, Walt Mossberg, who's known Melinda for even longer than I have. So stick around.
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3:53 Kara Swisher? Let's start off with politics, get it out of the way. You endorsed a presidential candidate for the first time this summer, then President Biden, and after he withdrew, then Vice President Harris. Elon Musk, who I've had some wrangling with of late, subtweeted you that might be the downfall of Western civilization. In your announcement, you wrote that women deserve a leader who cares about their ability to freely and fully participate in a functioning democracy. Where are we from when you said that? That idea of America in danger of becoming an illiberal democracy, or worse?
4:25 Speaker 00 I think we're in turbulent times now, in turbulent waters. You know, like, I never, never would have guessed that USAID would essentially be folded. And that is an organization I know incredibly well and worked alongside of for 20-plus years. And, you know, it was endorsed by Republican and Democratic administrations because they saw that people could live where they were if they had good health and they had peace and some chance for prosperity. And so to see that, you know, 16 million women won't have access to maternal health services because of that pullback, how does that make us look better?
5:09 Speaker 00 How does that help us with peace? 17 million more cases of malaria, which also means, hey, our chances of getting malaria are just that much higher also. I mean, so to have all these administrations that believed in this, yes, I agree that there were things that could have been trimmed at the edges and there were places that you should look, but to just flat out say we're ending that department? Wow, just wow.
5:34 Kara Swisher? Talk about your experience with them. This is with the Gates Foundation, correct?
5:37 Speaker 00 Yes.
5:38 Kara Swisher? So talk about how you interacted with them.
5:41 Speaker 00 So I traveled with the Gates Foundation. I was lucky enough to travel for over 25 years. I was out in low-income countries at least three times a year, all over the world. Probably I was on the continent of Africa over 30 times. USAID would be there and people knew of the organization because there would be whole bags of grain and of food and they knew that the US was being generous. Or take PEPFAR, which was administered, is still administered. It's one of the things that's left of USAID. I was there when the first clinics got set up. Were they efficient at the beginning? No. Were they efficient five years in and integrated into the health system? Much more so.
6:23 Speaker 00 And we started to see the rates of HIV declining because of that. So these programs, the president's malaria initiative, started by George W. Bush, cases of malaria came down. USAID was out there making sure malaria tests went out to people, making sure there were treatments in clinics. And again, the US brand was stamped on these things. People knew of the US and what we were doing.
6:51 Kara Swisher? You guys were, you did a lot on malaria. Obviously malaria is one of your signature causes, but I think you told us that you learned to work with the government, had a better appreciation for what it was doing despite problems. If you had to say what had to be reformed, what would you say? And not just liking the US, but like showing how we can do things for people around the, around the globe essentially.
7:13 Speaker 00 Yeah, I think some of the reforms that were needed in that particular department really had to do with, there was probably about maybe 5%, 8% where you'd say, mm, we haven't really measured that in a long time and I don't know if that's effective anymore. I think there could have been a lot more work done, again, on maternal health services and making sure that the system in these countries was working for women. Often we would go in as a government and make sure the supplies were there, but you know, was the HR system working? Should we have bolstered up the HR system a little bit better so they had the right auxiliary nurse, midwife working there, right? Or the healthcare worker?
7:53 Speaker 00 We had lots of learnings in global health, many, many, many, and it just would take USAID a little bit longer. To implement than you would have liked. But my gosh, in terms of the good that was being done, I would say 90% of what USAID was doing was effective and making change in people's lives.
8:14 Kara Swisher? Did you think about talking to Trump about this?
8:18 Speaker 00 I have not talked to Trump about this. It's a done deal, so there's no point in it at this point.
8:22 Kara Swisher? Because you don't think you could appeal to him? Because a lot of it is appealing to him, right? At least having dinner or whatever it takes. A lot of people are doing that.
8:32 Speaker 00 I interacted with him in the first administration and made an appeal on family planning that he made look like it was going to be changed in the direction I'd hoped for. And in fact, the opposite happened.
8:45 Kara Swisher? The opposite.
8:46 Speaker 00 So, no, I don't feel I could be effective there. But I feel like I can be effective on the Hill. And it is worth me still calling congresspeople, which I do on both sides of the aisle. Because I believe in bipartisan legislation.
8:59 Kara Swisher? And what is the reaction you get when you go around? Do you think it's still useful to do so? Because the Republicans feel captive at this point.
9:07 Speaker 00 Right. But I think it's worth finding the places. We do know, and I'm not going to name them, but which senators, even on the Republican side, still care about some of these family issues? The child tax credit? The potential, you know, it's not going to be now, paid family medical leave? The caregiving? I also talked to them about the cuts in Medicaid. Again, I'm sure there is room to make changes there, but drastic changes really quickly? To me, that makes no sense.
9:36 Kara Swisher? And what do they say to you when you say, what are you doing?
9:40 Speaker 00 It depends on which senator you talk to. Some of them have ideas and are really trying to, you know, play the game, but also push for what they believe is right for their state. And I respect that.
9:51 Kara Swisher? Right. Talk about what's your donor strategy for the next three and a half years? What are you looking for in candidates?
9:57 Speaker 00 I look for candidates who have similar values to me. And so one of the things I've been focused on now for five years and will continue to focus on, and maybe even more so, are the state houses. There are 7,000 seats. In our state legislature, they move a ton of policy and a lot of money that affect people in those states. So I support candidates who are like minded. For instance, when we couldn't get a paid family medical leave policy, the partners that I work with and I at the federal level, we missed it by one vote because of Joe Manchin. But when we couldn't get it there, we continue to advance our work at the state level. We now have 13 states and the District of Columbia with very good paid family medical
10:41 Speaker 00 leave policies, and they get better all the time because the states learn from one another. So I look at also these state houses as being places where you can affect change, these leaders can, and they're a great training ground for the Hill in DC. And so making sure we bring down the barriers for women to get those positions in state houses and we help advance the causes that I look there.
11:06 Kara Swisher? And what about abortion rights? This is something back in 2014, you wrote in a blog post that you struggled with the issue of abortion, decided not to engage, but now you are fully engaged in that.
11:16 Speaker 00 Because I never thought I'd see the law rolled back. I mean, to have, I have two young granddaughters who are, you know, age two and under, to know that they have fewer rights than I have, that just makes no sense.
11:27 Kara Swisher? Now, you were practicing Catholic and you read a lot about your Catholic upbringing in the book. I happen to be Catholic too, not, I'm not a practicing Catholic. How do you, how do you make the argument, Joe Biden had the same issue, many people have religious beliefs and they have to figure out how to weigh them. Talk a little bit about, because you discuss it in the book, the upbringing you had.
11:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, so I definitely grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school all the way K through 12th grade. Luckily, in high school, I had a set of liberal nuns, Ursula nuns who taught us.
12:01 Kara Swisher? Oh, they're the best.
12:01 Speaker 00 They are. They taught us we could question our faith, right? And we could question the leaders in power. Even my parents petitioned the church at one point. And because they weren't bringing in the laws from Vatican II and implementing them in our parish. And so. I felt I could put back on the hierarchy. But then, as I was out traveling for so many years and talking to families, men and women, who knew about contraceptives, knew that if they spaced the births of their children, the woman was more likely to survive the childbirth and the children were likely to be more healthy because they could feed them, they could educate them.
12:41 Speaker 00 And so I just, I couldn't square that circle between my faith that didn't believe in contraceptives and what I knew to be true in the developing world. And I finally decided, you know, I need to speak what I know is true because I believe in the dignity of life and I believe that we shouldn't have, lose babies just literally because they're coming too soon and too often for a woman.
13:04 Kara Swisher? How do you, what do you say to people who think abortion is immoral? Because you're making a larger argument and they, these forces of what I would call retrograde have, have really gotten very powerful.
13:15 Speaker 00 But most Americans believe that law should be left on the books, even Catholics. Over 60% of Americans believe we had a law that should have been stayed where it was.
13:27 Kara Swisher? How far, how is the fight going now? And what is the first step for someone like you who is a big donor in that regard?
13:33 Speaker 00 Well, I'm still putting a lot of money into reproductive rights across the board, but I'm much more focused now on the United States. I never thought I would need to be, but I am. And I really support the local, on the ground work that's going on to make sure young girls know about their bodies, have rights to contracept, and know about their rights, but also know where they can go to get contraceptives.
13:56 Kara Swisher? And you know Planned Parenthood is struggling quite a bit now, especially because of the attacks by the Trump administration.
14:01 Speaker 00 And the rollback of the Title X money. That makes no sense to me. I was down in Louisiana, I guess it was about eight weeks ago now, six weeks ago, talking to doctors and many people in the health care clinics. And the chaos that's been caused and the uncertainty about what can we counsel a young girl on, where should we send her, what can we do? Will I lose my license? Am I even allowed to have methopristine? Right? I mean, these are just questions that we shouldn't be asking in this day and age.
14:33 Kara Swisher? And when you are doing this, it is up to...
14:38 Kara Swisher? People like you now, and not the government. I mean, you planted your flag, I would say, the center-left side of the divide. I don't know how you describe yourselves, but some Democrats don't like the idea of billionaires at all. Bernie Sanders has said it for years, there should be no billionaires. Talk about this idea of all kinds of people on both sides. How should the party fix the rift between progressive leaders that are skeptical of wealth, like Bernie, AOC, Elizabeth Warren, and people like you, like Reid Hoffman, Michael Bloomberg, now, especially now that Democrats are no longer seen as the party of the working class? But this idea that you have to wait in here to take the place of what government had previously done.
15:15 Speaker 00 Well, OK, first of all, billionaires aren't a monolith.
15:19 Kara Swisher? Correct. I try to explain that to people.
15:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, billionaires, yeah, aren't a monolith. We're not all the same. Some of us are philanthropic, some are not. Some wield their power in very unusual ways, I would say. But we are where we are as a society. And you can argue that we got here because of our tax policy. So really, the tax policy probably needs to change. But given that we are where we are, I don't think it's worth vilifying billionaires and making them all seem like they're one category, right? But the other thing to know is that philanthropic dollars can never, never fill the hole of government dollars. There just aren't enough, right?
16:06 Speaker 00 So the USAID rolled back with 75-plus billion dollars, just one department, right? You roll back parts of Medicaid? We're talking hundreds of millions of dollars in various states. So philanthropic capital can't fill that gap. All the philanthropic sector can do is be that catalytic wedge. We can create change, we can run experiments, where you wouldn't want our government to use taxpayer dollars to take those kinds of risks. And once we prove something out, and we've got good research, then it's really up to government to scale it up. And so that's how I see the sector, and I see it as part of a larger ecosystem that is government,
16:51 Speaker 00 Private sector, philanthropy, and then NGOs and civil society.
16:56 Kara Swisher? When you think about being in that role, and I agree with you, they're not a modelist, but you do raise your profile, right? Especially when things like conspiracy theories and online disinformation are inescapable fact of life. At one point, 44% of Republicans believed your ex-husband, Bill Gates, wanted to use COVID vaccines to implant microchips in people. Your daughter Phoebe has said that she had friends cut her off because of that conspiracy theory. When you are in the public light like this, how do you fight the disinformation around yourself or on these topics, especially in social media platforms have pretty much given up on content moderation?
17:35 Speaker 00 Right. Well, the only way I know to fight back on that is to be myself and to be my most authentic self and to live, to state what my values are and to live my values. And people can decide, they have different values than me, they don't like me, they do like me, but I'm at the point in my life, I'm 60 years old, where I'm kind of like, take me or leave me. So I'm willing to take some criticism, but what I know to be true, after spending so much time in these fields and talking to women and talking to men and learning about people's lives around the world, somebody has got to speak up.
18:15 Speaker 00 Look, it would be so much easier for me to just go, I don't know, live my life somewhere where nobody knew where I was on a beach somewhere, I guess, put it that way. But I believe in certain things and I believe that we will be better off in society when we make it easier for women to step into their full power. And part of me doing this book was to say, look, you may see me one way, maybe, you know, but here's actually who I am. So decide what you think of me after reading my book, right?
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22:03 Kara Swisher? In the book, you talk about the death of a friend of yours, right?
22:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
22:06 Kara Swisher? This is the book The Next Day. You write, pointing about the death of John, a former colleague who had become one of your best friends. You touch on the science of grief. When someone we love dies, our brain is forced to adapt to the new reality, and that rewiring might actually lead to positive growth. Talk a little bit about that, because there is a moment, right, where you shift rather significantly.
22:26 Speaker 00 Well, I think both having children, and when John died, our son Rory was just born. We named his middle name after our friend John Nielsen. And, you know, I realized, I mean, John, we lost John so young. He was in his late 30s. He left behind three very young children, who I still know, who are now grown adults. And I realized, my gosh, you know, we just don't know how long we're here. And you can either just let that sort of roll past you, and six months later, you've just moved on, or you can decide to pause, and that there are lessons to learn. And I decided... Decided to pause and say, wait a minute. What do I want my life to look like on the last day?
23:09 Kara Swisher? Mm hmm.
23:10 Speaker 00 And if you think about that a lot, and then you work backwards from it and you say, my life needs to lead up. My last day, I hope people will say, you know, about me, she was loved by her family and friends. They loved her, she loved them, they all knew it. And she made some meaningful change in the world. And so if you say that's what you, how you want to live your life, and you have no idea, is it tomorrow? Is it 30 years from now? You start to back up from there and say, okay, I need to actually be part of creating change. And because I was raising children, as they got into middle school later, and I started to realize I'm telling them to use their voice. I'm telling them to stand up to the bully, stand up for a friend.
23:53 Speaker 00 I realized if I want to be a whole, integrated person, I need to also be using my voice.
23:59 Kara Swisher? So you, one of the things you talk about, you always wonder, your mother in the book you write, at the center of my heaving chest, pulsing from my hammering heart, was a force that hadn't existed there before, maternal love so primal and ferocious, it was almost violent. Um, I know the feeling, I feel that, I keep having children. Um, best thing I ever did, people always surprised when I say that. Um, your oldest child became a mother in, Jen became a mother in 2023. And last year, your youngest daughter graduated from Stanford. Uh, your kids are adults, you've transitioned to a new role as a grandmother. Talk about the primal and ferocious maternal love, because I think it has been an important part of your evolving.
24:37 Speaker 00 I think we don't, I will say, I, and I'd be interested in your point of view on this. I didn't know how primal it was until I had Jen. I write about this earthquake that happened, and I'm screaming to my mother, you know, cover the baby, cover the baby. I have stitches, I've run from the bed, I don't even know that I'm at the top of the stairs screaming at my mom. Of course, my mom knew what to do in the middle of an earthquake, cover the baby. But I realized, oh, my God, like. I love this person so much, I would give my life for them. And it changes you. If you let having children change you and don't just say, oh, I'm going to live my life the way I've been living it. I think it can change you for the better as a person. I don't know. Why are you? Why do people?
25:21 Speaker 00 Are you surprised when they say that that's when you say that's the best thing you've ever done?
25:25 Kara Swisher? I am. They did for I don't know. They have a version of me. I was like, I just, I'm, I think they're surprised that I think it's the most important. I've wanted to have a kid since I was 15 years old. And of course, being gay, I couldn't necessarily at the time, back then, back when. I think we're around the same age. And, and so I always felt like I was. I have one of the things, stories I wrote about in my memoir was a, was a onesie I bought for my son when I was 18 years old, you know, before that, which is really kind of interesting. So I was very aware of what, of what I wanted. It's been the most important part of my life, obviously. What is your role as a grandmother now?
25:59 Speaker 00 My grandma, my role as a grandmother is, one is to support my oldest daughter and remind her that she is a very good parent and she's good enough because she's in her residency and she has two little girls, you know, basically aged two and under. So to remind her she's doing a great job, which she is, and that they're thriving. And it's to just play with those grandchildren. And it's delightful in every possible way.
26:25 Kara Swisher? So one of the things you also write about in a book is the perfect marriage. People always think about marriages as like perfect. I too have gotten a divorce. Divorce is obviously a big transition. And you write about this in the lead up to yours in the book. The New York Times published a deeply disturbing article that raised serious questions about Bill's conduct, questions that suggested he betrayed not only our marriage, but also my values. And it talked about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Talk a little bit about this because obviously, given your dedication to women and girls, the questions raised by the article do go to the heart of your life's work.
26:56 Speaker 00 Well, first of all, I didn't feel like I could put a book out about transitions without talking about divorce because mine was public. People knew I went through it, right? And it would be disingenuous not to. And at the same time, I don't want to bring up things. Look, it was painful for five of us, not one, not just me, five of us. And I don't want to bring up things that are painful for the kids. But I thought, at least in writing through some of my story from my perspective, maybe people who go through divorce, they might see that there's growth and there's resilience and there's beauty that can come on the other side. Even when you're in it and you do not think that, you just kind of know, I need to get this done.
27:39 Speaker 00 And you're in a lot of pain, you know, holding out the perspective or having someone else hold out the perspective that you're gonna not only be okay, but there's gonna be beauty on the other side. I just thought that was important.
27:50 Kara Swisher? Mm-hmm. And your relationship now, obviously you want a relatively good relationship for the kids, I would assume, but maybe not.
27:58 Speaker 00 You know, weddings and graduations.
28:03 Kara Swisher? You know, my ex-wife, you know, Meghan, you know, Meghan.
28:05 Speaker 00 Yes.
28:06 Kara Swisher? She is my, I have two new kids, I got remarried. And literally, my kid's favorite person is Meghan Smith. They're like, when's Meghan coming over? My wife's like, okay.
28:18 Speaker 00 I hope your wife sees that having a third person there, maybe it takes a little bit of a load off.
28:23 Kara Swisher? It's just lesbians, what can we do about it? There's nothing, that's what I said, I'm like, lesbians, I don't know what to tell you. She brings toys, she brings lots of toys for them. Anyway, it's really actually very nice. So every episode, we get an expert to send us a question. Let's hear yours, it's about your book.
28:37 Speaker 07 Hi, Melinda, it's Walt Mossberg. When we first met decades ago, you were a product manager at Microsoft, visiting me to interest me in a product called Microsoft Publisher. Since then, as you outline in the book, you've made several major transitions in your life. And
29:03 Speaker 07 I also have reinvented myself several times, mostly arm in arm with my business partner, Kara. So my question is, do you advise that everyone should evaluate their life, personal and professional periodically, and reinvent themselves even without the kind of seminal, triggering event like a divorce?
29:31 Speaker 00 Great question. I know. Walt's the best. Walt's the best. Okay, first of all, I want to say two things about Walt. One is to say he was brand new as a columnist at The Wall Street Journal, so much so that I felt like they gave him a closet as his office. We were in the most tiny office and it was uncomfortable. There was no like personal space. I think I put my laptop on top of a box. But the second thing that I'm not sure he even knows is I was getting to know Catherine Graham at that time and I had gone to breakfast at her house. And all of a sudden I jumped up and I looked at the time and I said, "Oh, my gosh, Mrs. Graham, I've got to go. I have to be at The Wall Street Journal." And she said, "What time?" And when I told her, she said, "You'll never make it."
30:15 Speaker 00 And she said to somebody on her household staff, "Pull my car out of the garage." She drove me to The Wall Street Journal and dropped me off at the front door. And her son, Don, who I know quite well, says- Was it the station wagon? It was some red car. I don't think it was a station wagon. But he said his mom hadn't driven in years. Oh, wow. Oh, wow. But she knew how important it was for me to be there on time. Right, right. So to Walt's question about making transitions, I think we should all try to look for places, if we're lucky enough, to reinvent ourselves. Because I think that's where we grow in life. That's where we learn new things. That's where we- Find openings in our life. Not everybody's lucky enough that they can reinvent themselves.
31:00 Speaker 00 A lot of times they get stuck in a career or they have to go in one direction. But I think some of the juiciest and best times of life is are when you can reinvent yourself and you have to not be afraid of it.
31:11 Kara Swisher? And how do you do that? I mean, does it take an event, as you noted, like a divorce or a death or something like that?
31:18 Speaker 00 Not necessarily. Like, I had a background in computer science and economics and here I am sitting at a foundation I created with a group of top scientists in malaria, tuberculosis, HIV. I don't know, I don't have a biology or medicine degree or global health, but I was dedicated and I learned and I learned deeply. I wasn't afraid to ask scary questions or dumb questions or good questions. I learned from people in the field. I talked to other scientists. Like, you can learn. You just, as I say to my kids, you just have to get comfortable being very uncomfortable. It's like learning a new language and the more you push yourself through those points in time, the easier it is to go through these
32:02 Speaker 00 transitions and these, as Walt calls them, reinventions.
32:04 Kara Swisher? So you mentioned your background in computer science and economics, which was from Duke. And then you went to Microsoft, which had a brash and tough culture, I can tell you, as you know, as I know, that made you want to quit at times. What was it being like a woman in tech then? And has that changed since? Are we moving backwards now that there's sort of this emphasis on hyper masculinity?
32:26 Speaker 00 Well, I can say what it was like when I was at Microsoft. One, it was super exciting. I wanted to be there. We knew we were changing the world and we, by gosh, knew it, right? There were not very many technical women and luckily I had enough of a grounding and a background and I knew I was a good manager. I had managed a lot of projects before I went to Microsoft in various parts of my time. And so I had enough strength to know I could manage developers and testers. So that part I loved a lot. The parts I didn't like were the boys debate club, which felt constant with management.
33:11 Speaker 00 Anytime I went into a meeting where there was a senior manager above me, it just felt like it was this just constant debate. And I learned to play that game, but I didn't like that game. But I learned that I would just try being myself. And the more I did that, one, the happier I was. And two, I could get developers, it was strange, from all over the company to come work on my teams. And people would say, how did you get that developer from that other project over here? And I was like, I don't know, maybe they just want to work in a different culture. But it was hard and it was tough. And there were definitely times I thought about quitting.
33:50 Kara Swisher? Now, again, performative masculinity is really back in tech. There was a slight lull, although I would say slight would be the most I would say. Mark Zuckerberg wants more masculine energy. And January, Elon Musk shared a post on X saying that masculinity is back. Jeff Bezos, I don't even want to talk about the jacked and cowboy hats thing, but whatever. He's performing in some fashion. Pivotal Ventures that you run is partly, I want to talk about the VC fund and invest in projects that help advance women and women's rights. And like any VC firm, the goal is obviously to make money. Talk a little bit about the fund, because you're going a different direction. Obviously, you see an opportunity here. What's your main takeaway after doing this work?
34:29 Speaker 00 There are a lot of great ideas that are not being funded. And they're not being funded just because of the bias in the system or because we've gotten used to funding certain types of businesses. So what I'm looking forward to is absolutely I'm making a return and I want to make a return. But what I'm looking for is I'm on a long play here, a 10 or 15 year play. Because if I can prove out that this works, one thing I do know is nobody, especially guys, don't like to leave money on the table, as they say. And so I think once we make this a norm and people realize, oh, there are lots of businesses we should be Looking at and funding, then other people will crowd in behind. So that's my thesis and we'll see if it plays out, but so far so good.
35:10 Kara Swisher? So when you do that, do you feel like you're, you know, you don't want, of course, not, I love everyone who do this. They're like, I don't want to be just pegged here because you want to be in on the big deals, obviously. The Open AIs and different things like that. But a lot of the tone, as we just discussed, has that idea of not focusing on women's things. Elon Musk recently said that the fundamental weakness in Western civilization is empathy. Peter Thiel infamously lamented women's suffrage. He wrote that women who vote have, quote, rendered the notion of capitalist democracy into an oxymoron. We circle back to the issue of this hyper masculinity. What's the best strategy for women you're funding who want to succeed in the industry? When many founders and funders have, I would say, open disdain in some case,
35:53 Kara Swisher? trying to push back on traits considered to be feminine.
35:57 Speaker 00 You've got to keep pushing forward and you've got to just find the funders who are willing to fund you. And yes, it's not going to be that pack of people you just mentioned. But you've got to push forward. And again, the best way to push back is to succeed in business. Like, one of the reasons we're seeing this gigantic shift in women's sports all of a sudden is you're finally starting to see more women in more sports really making it. And the difference between men and women in these sports is becoming more and more slim. That's when you see societal shift. And so it's why, you know, we have to invest in media that portrays lots of different types of people that look like society. We have to invest in sports for women.
36:42 Speaker 00 We have to invest in tech because that's changing society. We have to get more women, as I said, in politics and in state houses. We have to push forward on all those places. So, yes, this is a moment in time that doesn't look particularly good because of some of the people that you named. But, look, I'm playing the long game here. We all have to play the long game.
37:03 Kara Swisher? Do you ever feel like you have to be part of that kind of like, I got to get in this deal. I got to get in that, I got to go for TikTok or whatever, whatever it happens to be, the aggressor of the moment? You don't feel like you have to be part of those?
37:13 Speaker 00 I'm not afraid. Here's the thing, some people got to be at that particular deal table because they're afraid. Like, oh, my God, what will it say if I'm not there? I'm just not afraid.
37:27 Speaker 08 We'll be back in a minute.
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38:51 Speaker 04 I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
39:02 Speaker 09 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
39:07 Speaker 04 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
39:17 Speaker 10 They kept asking for Middlefinger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
39:22 Speaker 04 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
39:25 Speaker 05 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
39:28 Speaker 11 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.
39:35 Speaker 04 And dairy?
39:37 Speaker 06 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
39:39 Speaker 04 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
39:48 Speaker 12 Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy, terms, and conditions.
40:19 Kara Swisher? Let me ask you a little bit about your philosophy for philanthropy and how it gels with these investments ideas. You describe your approach in philanthropy as somewhat in between a data-driven model that you championed at the Gates Foundation and a trust-based model that Mackenzie Scott has adopted in her philanthropy work. For people who don't know, explain the difference between those two approaches.
40:39 Speaker 00 Well, you can do philanthropy in so many different ways. So first of all, it's great, I think, whenever anybody's giving away money, even if it's $100 or $1,000, right? On sort of one end of the spectrum, people have sort of drawn it as trust-based philanthropy, which is more typical of what Mackenzie is doing, and I have great respect for her, which is she is saying, look, I see a broad set of leaders out there who've been doing these types of things for quite a while. And to me, she does have measurement tools that she's looking at how they're advancing society in the way she cares about, and then she funds them. And she trusts them to use those funds in the way they most see fit.
41:21 Speaker 00 The other end of the spectrum could be what you call, I mean, if it was purely, some people, data-driven, which is, okay, for every grant or every, you know, $10,000, $500,000, are we getting a return? Are we seeing another life saved? Are we seeing another child in school? You can never be completely data-driven. You just can't, because you can't measure every dollar that goes out the door. That I know.
41:46 Speaker 00 And quite frankly, on the data-driven side, one of the things I've learned is that, look, for every data point, that's a human life. And so you do have to kind of decide what do you value? And so I'm somewhere kind of in between those two models, I would say. I'm certainly collecting data from people that I'm giving money to. But some of them, you know, I am letting them run pretty free. Like I, there are 12 people, global people, that I gave $20 million each to. They can use $5 million on their own organization. But the other 15, they have to figure out who they're going to fund and what, for what purpose. And believe me, I'm going to go back and understand what they funded and why they funded. But I don't believe, sitting in Seattle or in the United States, that anybody on my team or I have all the best ideas.
42:31 Speaker 00 And I think people who are out closer to the work have a lot of the better ideas that can advance society.
42:37 Kara Swisher? I do kind of love Mackenzie just dropping the money. Goodbye, here you go. Don't put my name on anything. Did that kind of shock you all when she started doing that?
42:46 Speaker 00 No, I know her. That didn't surprise me at all.
42:48 Kara Swisher? No, no, I just love it. I just was like, it's so like her, right? It's so like her.
42:52 Speaker 00 And think about it. The other thing is she's an extraordinarily talented writer, extraordinarily.
42:57 Kara Swisher? Yes.
42:58 Speaker 00 She's writing her own story in philanthropy. And when she wants to tell you what she's doing, rather than going out and doing all the media stuff, even like you and I are doing right now, she writes about it.
43:11 Kara Swisher? Yeah.
43:11 Speaker 00 And she writes with fidelity and it's beautiful. Who else do you look to in philanthropy that you say, wow, I like what they're doing?
43:18 Kara Swisher? You know, I've always admired Warren Buffett. It's hard not to, just because he's such a man. She's so enjoyable to talk to. A lot of different people. What I'm more struck by is the selfishness of a lot of people, right? And their lack of philanthropy when they have so much money. But I think the quieter stuff, I like the, I like, I like the quieter stuff a little more because you just never, don't know. But I don't mind the loud stuff too, because it points to things. Speaking of which, because it gets attention, right? So some of the specific work you've been doing, last year, Pivotal announced it was committing $1 billion through 2026 to advance women's power globally. And part of that, you're donating $45 million to help increase women's representation in AI and tech. Only about 30% of the AI workforce is made up of women and the percentage of women in
44:03 Kara Swisher? senior executive roles is even smaller. So talk about this, because this is the next sort of gold rush happening right now. So what's the best way to increase those numbers and why has it been such a challenge?
44:14 Speaker 00 So AI is, look, tech, tech changed society profoundly. You know that, I know that, we all see it. AI is going to change society even in an even more profound way, to the point that we don't even know yet. But because the same types of workers who worked in tech are the same types of workers who worked in AI, and there was already not enough women going into tech, you're seeing not enough women go into artificial intelligence. And to me, that is tragic. And we have to change it because that's where society is being built. I mean, we are building the pipes now and, and we're baking the bias, just like we did in the Constitution. We bake the bias into the system and look how long it did take for women to get the
44:59 Speaker 00 vote, right? And minorities in our country. So what can we do? There are lots of organizations who are gleaning the lessons, for instance, of the universities. If we miss a girl in tech, let's say in middle school or high school, there are universities that have learned lessons about how do you attract and keep them after that first freshman class. And so we can take those learnings, and our partners are, and spreading those to other universities and helping girls understand these are not only high paying fields, they're creative, you don't have to already know how to code, even though you may think you did, like you, you actually put kind of the, the boys who've been coding for a long time, you move them into another class and you have girls with a very supportive environment. They thrive and they keep going from there.
45:43 Speaker 00 So we can do that. We can do their organizations like Breakthrough AI, who are doing more mentorship and sponsorship. We can help girls get their very first internship in AI. That makes an enormous difference in terms of the trajectory of their career.
46:00 Kara Swisher? It's also the safety issues. One of the lines I always said is the reason tech hasn't been safe is because the people who made it don't feel unsafe. You know, they've never felt unsafe a day in their lives and so therefore they don't think about safety. And the second part around AI, I think about it a lot, is why it's, why I'm particularly excited about it is because it's like having a baby. You know what I mean? They're making people, they're making things in a way that they can't do in the real world. It's, it's just a weird thing when I think about it all the time. I'm like, AI is the next version of people in a lot of ways, to a lot of them.
46:35 Speaker 00 Either that, or maybe they, maybe it's that, I don't know, I haven't thought of it in that particular way, but, or maybe. It's the hey, we will have the power in society.
46:45 Kara Swisher? That's right.
46:46 Speaker 00 I mean, it is the engine. It is the massive engine of change.
46:49 Kara Swisher? Yeah, absolutely. So, one of the things that's difficult is these new anti-D E I policies. One of Pivil's stated goals is to make the tech industry more inclusive. And the administration's managed to scare a lot of public organizations and private sector companies into obeying in advance, scrapping any programs that sound even like they might help women or people of color. How do you, how are you dealing with this? A lot of people have just acquiesced and removed this stuff from their websites even.
47:14 Speaker 00 My work continues.
47:15 Kara Swisher? Yeah, you're not going to be doing that.
47:17 Speaker 00 I know where, I know what my values are. My mom used to say to me as I was growing up, "Set your own agenda, or someone else will." I know society is better off when women are in positions of power.
47:28 Kara Swisher? How do you help organizations that are afraid of losing funding because of D E I?
47:33 Speaker 00 You stand with them. You let them know their work is important and that you believe in it.
47:37 Kara Swisher? And willing to litigate if necessary?
47:40 Speaker 00 We'll see.
47:41 Kara Swisher? We'll see. So, I'm going to finish up with a couple, two more questions. You have a very heartfelt section in the book where you write about how your dad encouraged. Let's talk about men, too, because dads are important and yours obviously was.
47:51 Speaker 00 Super important.
47:52 Kara Swisher? Yeah, and there's a quote by Malala's dad. I love him. By the way, I know him pretty well. He's spent some time with us. And he said, "Women's voices are the most important in feminism, but in patriarchal societies, a father's voice is perhaps the next most important tool to galvanize change." He has been so important to her, 100%. You could see that. It was his support for her was critical to her courage, I think, in many ways. Pivil has given about $20 million in grants to both Richard Reeves and Gary Barker, two leaders in the organizations that work with men and boys. Scott Galloway, who I do pivot with, is coming out with a book about trying to redefine masculinity against the sort of what I would call toxic masculinity
48:33 Kara Swisher? that the tech bros are pushing, some of them. Talk about this crisis of masculinity and they're trying to tackle, and ultimately, how it affects women. I'd love to understand why you gave them this money.
48:43 Speaker 00 Yeah, because...
48:46 Speaker 00 I think we're seeing through the research that boys are having trouble finding the male role models, the positive male role models in their life. The teacher, the coach, the other dad who cares about them. And as young men fall behind and are not graduating at the same rates at college, and women are starting to accelerate past them in some fields, you're starting to see, okay, well, where do they go? They go to these toxic, more toxic places. And so I really applaud the work that Richard Reeve and Gary Barker are doing where they're trying to say, okay, what do we need to do in society? How do we create these role models? How do we give men a different way of being in society?
49:31 Speaker 00 So that we advance everybody in society. This shouldn't be a zero sum game that men, women rise and men fall down. We want them to rise together. And quite frankly, the male suicide rates are just horrific.
49:45 Kara Swisher? They are.
49:45 Speaker 00 And even when you look at adolescent mental health, the numbers are going in the wrong direction for girls and boys. And that's tragic.
49:54 Kara Swisher? So you explore the concept of liminal space in the book. There's an intermediate zone between where you've been and where you've going. I guess the green room of life. The country feels it's in a liminal space right now or something. We're undergoing a transition. We don't know where we're going. It feels very chaotic. It feels very uncertain. So you feel hateful. How should Americans deal with that uncertainty that comes with being in this liminal space without succumbing to anxiety or hopelessness? I think everyone I meet is anxious and hopeless. And you're writing a book about not being that. It's great to change. So what's your advice?
50:30 Speaker 00 Focus on the local. Absolutely. Write to your senator, call, email your congressperson. Like, use your voice and tell them what you think about these policies. Protest if you feel like the right role for you is to protest also. But then focus locally. Find points of light and hope in your local community because there's so much still going on. To help people who are homeless, to help the young kid who needs mentoring or needs help with their homework. I mean, when you do those things, if you go serve food in a food line, or you make, or you come in contact with people who aren't as fortunate as you, you learn something from that. And guess what? You feel better because
51:13 Speaker 00 you're in concert, working with them and others to change the world. And it starts there.
51:18 Kara Swisher? All right. So my very last question, you started your book with a Mary Oliver quote. And obviously, the most famous one of Mary Oliver's is, tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life? I guess I'll change that with the rest of your wild and precious life. What do you plan to do?
51:34 Speaker 00 Exactly what I'm doing now. Keep fighting on behalf of others. Make the world better for my granddaughters and hopefully other grandchildren maybe to come. But just to, you know, help repair the world. We all need it. And I'm doing that day in and day out. And, and I really love the work.
51:52 Kara Swisher? Why is it just women in tech doing this? The actual fuck. You and Reid Hoffman. That's it. I swear to God, it's really amazing that it's mostly women doing this.
52:04 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, hopefully, we can find more women and like minded men.
52:07 Kara Swisher? Yes, that would be great. Anyway, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
52:11 Speaker 00 Thanks, Kara.
52:18 Kara Swisher? On with Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castor-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kalen Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Maura Fox. Our engineers are Rick Kwan and Fernando Aruda, and our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, I like you 10% more. If not, weddings and graduations. Only weddings and graduations. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On with Kara Swisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to On with Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Monday with more.
53:04 Speaker 02 Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/box.
53:48 Speaker 04 I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.
54:00 Speaker 09 I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.
54:05 Speaker 04 Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.
54:15 Speaker 10 They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.
54:20 Speaker 04 We've got deep tech to change the weather.
54:22 Speaker 05 Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand.
54:26 Speaker 11 What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day we're just like, screw Arizona.
54:33 Speaker 04 And dairy?
54:35 Speaker 06 I never imagined my life journey would be milk.
54:37 Speaker 04 Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.
54:46 Speaker 12 Progressive's Accident Response can contact emergency services if you're in a major accident. The only thing worse than someone you love being in an accident is not being able to help them. So Progressive is here to help when you can't. So get peace of mind knowing your loved ones are protected with Progressive's Accident Response. Learn more at progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Limited availability in California. Driver is responsible for emergency and towing charges not covered by the policy. Coverage subject to policy terms and conditions.
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