Broken Promises, Broken Hearts: Nez Perce National Historical Park

In June of 1877, 800 people were faced with an impossible choice - leave their home or be forcibly removed from it. What resulted was a 126 day 1,500 mile journey across four states by a band of Nez Perce who were attempting to escape forced relocation. They were relentlessly and violently pursued by the U. S. Army, eluding and fighting them for months through mountain ranges and within Yellowstone National Park before ultimately being forced into a corner just 40 miles from Canada - and freedom. For a full list of our sources, visit http://npadpodcast.com/episodesFor the latest NPAD updates, group travel details, merch and more, follow us on npadpodcast.com and our socials at:Instagram: @‌nationalparkafterdarkTikTok: @‌nationalparkafterdarkSupport the show by becoming an Outsider and receive ad free listening, bonus content and more on Patreon or Apple Podcasts. Want to see our faces? Catch full episodes on our YouTube Page! Thank you to the week’s partners! IQBAR: Text PARK to 64000 to get 20% off all IQBAR products and free shipping. Smalls: For a limited time, get 60% off your first order, plus free shipping, when you head to Smalls.com/NPAD. Rocket Money: Use our link to get started saving. Hello Fresh: Use our link to get up to 10 FREE meals and free breakfast for life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:01Danielle LaRock?

  In 1805, the Nez Perce people had gathered in Weyip Prairie, a wide meadow nestled into the foothills of the bitterroot Mountains of Idaho. The Nez Perce people, or the Niemipu in their language, were born from these lands. Since time immemorial, they had come here to gather food, graze their animals, and live as they always had. But in the fall of 1805, they encountered something new: a party of men, some white and one black. The men had fur on their faces, and some of the Nez Perce wondered if they were descended from dogs. But they quickly befriended these strange men, who called themselves Lewis and Clark, and welcomed them into their camp, shared food, knowledge, and laughter,

• 1:44Danielle LaRock?

  taught them to carve canoes, drew them a map, and offered to watch over their equipment. In his journal, Clark even noted that "the Nez Perce showed greater acts of hospitality than we have witnessed from any other nation or tribe since we passed the Rocky Mountains." When the group of explorers were ready to move on, the Nez Perce clasped hands with them, saying that for all time, the Nez Perce and white people would be friends. The Nez Perce had tried to honor that promise, but the men who followed in the footsteps of Lewis and Clark did not return the favor. Mountain men, missionaries, prospectors, and soldiers came to the region, at first in a trickle, and then in a flood. Some were friendly, but many were not. They claimed land, made promises, broke their

• 2:29Danielle LaRock?

  word, and made threats. Tensions rose and rose for decades before erupting in violence, an outcome all but a few had hoped to avoid. And now, 70 years after their meeting with Lewis and Clark, the Nez Perce once again found themselves in the Weype Prairie. But this time, they were faced with an impossible choice. Should they return to their homelands, stand their ground, or leave their home far behind and enter into the unknown? The military was in violent pursuit and closing in fast. With tears in their eyes, they took a final look at the prairie and chose to run.

• 3:09Danielle LaRock?

  Welcome to National Park After Dark.

• 3:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hello, everybody. I'm Cassie.

• 3:34Danielle LaRock?

  And I'm Danielle. And welcome to our show.

• 3:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Welcome to National Park After Dark. Today, we have an Indigenous-based story. And actually, when you were reading that intro, I realized how few times we've spoken about Lewis and Clark.

• 3:48Danielle LaRock?

  I don't recall a single time.

• 3:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know.

• 3:51Danielle LaRock?

  Really? Yeah, I guess you're right.

• 3:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Danielle LaRock?

  Let's ignore them for a little while. And truly-

• 3:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  For years. We've been doing this for almost five years.

• 4:02Danielle LaRock?

  Well, we're going to continue doing it. That was it. Lewis and Clark are-

• 4:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know this isn't about them, but when you said their name, I was like, huh, we've never, we've never told that story, even though it's very, I mean, it's ingrained in us in childhood, I guess, in elementary school from like, third grade to like, seventh, so.

• 4:21Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, maybe we'll circle back. But now is not the time, because like you said, we are going to be focusing on an Indigenous story today. And that is in honor of Indigenous History Month for the last two weeks of the month. We are going to be each sharing an indigenous based story. And this one is a topic that I have heard commemorated in different things and trails and parks that we'll get to. But I don't know the story in its entirety, so I'm really excited to share it with you because, well, and I say excited in quotations, because this is among probably the heaviest, one of the heaviest topics we've discussed before.

• 5:00Danielle LaRock?

  It's not super dark and morbid in the sense of sensational, scary, dark, creepy, that we kind of lean towards sometimes, but it's a pretty emotionally heavy chapter in history and we're going to talk about it. But before we do, really quick note, because this story is actually quite long and I want to get to it. But we wanted to announce that we have our store open right now.

• 5:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we restocked a few of our favorites from the past few years and we put it back in our shop. So if you have been wanting some merch and haven't gotten some yet, or you want some new stuff that you could have bought before, but didn't, it is now in the shop.

• 5:41Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so it's there if you want it.

• 5:43Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, that's it for housekeeping, I think.

• 5:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Perfect. Well, I'm excited to hear this story because you've told me little tidbits here and there. And this is something that I'm not super familiar with either, so I'm ready.

• 5:56Danielle LaRock?

  Awesome. Okay, well, like I said, this episode is going to be historically and emotionally heavy. There isn't really much space for levity throughout this. So I think that I'm going to say this now, so you have time to maybe think about it in the back of your mind. I think we need to do a palate cleanser at the end.

• 6:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay.

• 6:14Danielle LaRock?

  So maybe just something that you, something nice that happened to you recently or something you're looking forward to.

• 6:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  I saw, and it's too late for this right now because we're already recording. But I saw some people mention about the palate cleansers because we've mentioned it in a past episode, a few in the past, and some people said that we should put at the end of our episodes, we should do a little bit of a Q and A from our Patreon members where we answer their questions.

• 6:43Danielle LaRock?

  Shoot, too late for now.

• 6:44Cassandra Yahnian?

  Too late for this one, but if you like that idea, outsiders, please let us know.

• 6:49Danielle LaRock?

  Okay.

• 6:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  And we'll implement it another day.

• 6:51Danielle LaRock?

  Duly noted, and we will totally do that.

• 6:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Or I'll shoot, or I can shoot our outsiders a message right now and be like, we're recording and we're going to answer your questions. Let us know it. Yeah, let me do that.

• 7:02Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, good idea.

• 7:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  They're so nice. They'll totally. You guys will totally come through.

• 7:07Danielle LaRock?

  Uh, not elevator music. But you know, like, Busy Signal. Not that, though.

• 7:15Cassandra Yahnian?

  Is that Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

• 7:18Danielle LaRock?

  No, that's like,

• 7:20Danielle LaRock?

  like the real, remember? When the lights go down.

• 7:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, but when they're thinking and they're like,

• 7:26Danielle LaRock?

  That's Jeopardy, I think.

• 7:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  Uh, that makes sense.

• 7:36Danielle LaRock?

  Do you know that my favorite, uh, game show, I guess? Is it? Well, yeah, it's probably a game show. But one that I was always hooked on was, I say my favorite. I can't even think of the name of it. But the one with the cases that were just randomly numbered. And you had to pick a case and it had a dollar amount in it.

• 7:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes, and some of them, like, one would have like a million dollars. And then the other one would have like one dollar.

• 8:01Danielle LaRock?

  But yet the whole point was to not pick the high value ones. And then the banker would call and offer you a deal. Oh, who want, what is it called?

• 8:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  I don't know. You're like my favorite show.

• 8:13Danielle LaRock?

  Favorite show of all time.

• 8:17Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, more elevator music, please.

• 8:23Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, my God, Deal or No Deal?

• 8:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 8:25Danielle LaRock?

  And it didn't even load. My internet didn't even load yet.

• 8:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  It just came to you?

• 8:28Danielle LaRock?

  Came to me. Yep.

• 8:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Wow.

• 8:30Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. I think I liked it so much because it, it truly did feel, if it was rigged, I'm not sure. Don't ruin it for me. But it truly did feel as if it was just, anyone could get a shot. It wasn't based on your knowledge or experience in any sort of thing. It was just kind of a crap shoot, you know?

• 8:50Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Yeah, that was nice that you could go in and it was like, I have a chance.

• 8:56Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, me. Little old me. Okay, let's get serious now, for real. So, yes, okay, you got the Q and A prompt.

• 9:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yep, I sent it. I'll check it at the end.

• 9:07Danielle LaRock?

  Perfect.

• 9:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Hopefully, people answer. Otherwise, at the end of this, I'm gonna be like, no one has any questions.

• 9:13Danielle LaRock?

  No, I'll have to make one up. I can't. We can't let that slide. Okay, so after that introduction, you have a bit of background on what exactly has culminated up until this point to get where we are for the rest of the story, which is going to be covering the Nez Perce Flight of 1877, in which 800 men, women, and children fled nearly 1,500 miles, outsmarting multiple military commanders in their pursuit of freedom. A route that would take them from their homeland in Oregon and Idaho, through the heart of Yellowstone, towards Canada, and into an uncertain future. It's

• 9:53Danielle LaRock?

  a multifaceted story of strength, tragedy, and ultimately, the cost of America's westward expansion. But how did we get here? What brought the Nez Perce people to the Bitterroot Mountains, where they were faced with this impossible choice? In the 1800s, the experience of the Nez Perce mirrored that of many different indigenous groups across the continent. Throughout their traditional lands, which span modern-day Oregon, Washington, Idaho, and Montana, traders arrived who were happy to charge native people for goods, but never paid them for land. Ranchers moved in and set up fences, claiming to own territory the Nez Perce had used for millennia. And missionaries also entered the scene, intent on converting native peoples to Christianity,

• 10:37Danielle LaRock?

  and assimilating them into American society. And I think one of the parts of the story that I find particularly compelling is, it gives a little bit more insight into what I thought I knew about this period of time, because my initial understanding was what I would call pretty generalized, almost like a blanket understanding, that there was this dark chapter of residential boarding schools. Children were stripped of their identity, culture, heritage, and forced to assimilate into the, this new way of life, and, you know, indoctrinated against their will, essentially. And while that is overwhelmingly true, and I'm

• 11:19Danielle LaRock?

  sure we will get to covering a story specifically touching upon that entire thing, the whole boarding schools. Stuff because it is actually recommended quite a lot from listeners.

• 11:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I see it a lot.

• 11:33Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, the National Park Service preserves a lot of those sites. So while that is all overwhelmingly true, there is another perspective to this. Because for many Nez Perce, Christianity was actually quite appealing. Tukakas, a Nez Perce leader, was one of those people who found it appealing. After meeting with a white man named Reverend Spalding, he became a student of the Bible, sharing his teachings with his own people in their own language. These teachings, the worship of one Creator above all, heaven and hell, et cetera, et cetera, religious jargon and things. They were not accepted readily by everyone, but many Nez Perce adopted Christianity. Tukakas was baptized, given the Christian name of Joseph,

• 12:16Danielle LaRock?

  and in 1840, gave the same name to his newborn son. So I'm going to try and differentiate the Josephs here with Tukakas as I'm going to refer to him by his non-Christian name and then Joseph, the son as Joseph.

• 12:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Okay, just to make it easier to follow.

• 12:35Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, because I don't want to be like the older Joseph and the younger, you know what I'm saying?

• 12:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, totally.

• 12:40Danielle LaRock?

  Joseph would grow up to play a very important role in the flight of 1877. But as a kid, he was raised sort of straddling these two worlds. He grew up playing with settler kids in the white town of Lapway, as his dad learned at the missionary. And he would travel with his family across the land, learning the old ways of the Nez Perce. So in many ways, he embodied these two competing forces that was kind of taking hold at this point in time, this new and old clash of ways of life. And that rift would grow wider and wider with each passing year. By the time Joseph was 15, the governor of the Washington Territory, Isaac Stevens, met with the Nez Perce to discuss a treaty. He made lavish promises, money, livestock, supplies,

• 13:25Danielle LaRock?

  and that he would protect their land from white settlement if only they would go and move on to a reservation. The treaty was a subject of great discussion for the Nez Perce. It was something that really needed to be discussed. And debated and dissected, but for Tukakis, his native Wauwau Valley was entirely included within the boundaries of this new proposed reservation. So to him, this agreement served as a way to safeguard that and safeguard that piece of their ancestral homelands. And he looked at it in that way instead of this restraint on his people. With this line of thinking, he signed the treaty on behalf of his Wauwau band. However, in the years following this treaty,

• 14:10Danielle LaRock?

  Stevens promises were nowhere to be seen. Surprise, surprise. Goods and supplies never came, hospitals and schools were never built. The promise that their land would be protected from white settlement was not acknowledged by homesteaders or enforced by the government. So as a result, a steady stream of ranchers were starting to settle down in the lands that had been promised to the Nez Perce. This betrayal led many in the tribe to distrust the US government, of course, and disappointed and his trust completely shattered, Tukakis tore up his Bible, which is, you know, a big deal. He had not only converted to Christianity himself, but he was

• 14:49Danielle LaRock?

  spreading the word and trying to get others on board. And this move completely broke his heart. So when Stevens returned soon after, intent on negotiating a smaller reservation, the Nez Perce were split. Many of the bands who had adopted Christianity since they had, the missionaries had first arrived, believed in the government's promises. But many others did not, especially given the recent unfolding of events. Clearly, they didn't hold up their end of the deal. In council, it was decided that each band could decide for itself. And the non-treaty bands who refused would not have to follow the terms of the new treaty. And Joseph's father, Tukakis, was among the non-treaty chiefs, marking the boundary of

• 15:33Danielle LaRock?

  the Wauwau, the land of his people, with rock cairns. Sensing the weight of leadership that his son would soon face as he grew into adulthood, Tukakis asked his son to make him a promise. Stop your ears whenever you are asked to sign a treaty. Selling your home. This country holds your father's body. Never sell the bones of your father and mother. Tukakas died in eighteen seventy-one, leaving Joseph in charge of the Wallowa people. But while Tukakas didn't sign the Second Treaty, in the eyes of the US government, there was no distinction between the treaty and non-treaty bands. So that was a decision that was made amongst the Nez Perce, but the US government didn't recognize that or understand or honor that at all.

• 16:16Danielle LaRock?

  So they essentially accepted that any Nez Perce chief could speak for them all. They had no care that they had differing opinions. So as a result, according to this latest treaty, the Wallowa Valley no longer belonged to Joseph's band, and his people belonged on a reservation. Facing growing efforts from the government to remove them, Joseph worked tirelessly as a chief to keep his promise to his father, even as more white people settled onto their land and his people suffered greater injustices. Missionaries were creating new laws and using violence to enforce them. Ranchers castrated Nez Perce horses that they found near their herds. An Indian agent who was given ten thousand dollars to build a school on the reservation,

• 16:59Danielle LaRock?

  pocketed the cash, fled, and was never seen again. At the heart of all of this was an uneven application of the law. Ken Nerven, author of a very lengthy five-hundred-page book called Chief Joseph.

• 17:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's always a book.

• 17:14Danielle LaRock?

  There's, this one is a hefty one, yeah. It's titled Chief Joseph and the Flight of the Nez Perce. He put it this way. "When a lawless white man killed or raped or stole from an Indian, the Indian had no recourse. But when an Indian committed a crime against a white, retribution was swift, often directed against any Indian who happened to be nearby." And a prime example of this is when one of Joseph's closest friends was killed by a whiskey trader. And that man bragged about killing this indigenous man all around town. He made a show of it. He was not quiet about it, boasted about it. And yet he walked free and faced no punishment at all.

• 17:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  They just didn't care because he was white and it was an indigenous person.

• 18:01Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. Outraged, some Nez Perce demanded that he be killed, exacting justice in the way of their people, kind of like an eye for an eye type of. Thing. But Joseph, desiring peace and understanding, invited the military to negotiate the situation. He told them, "My friend was an honorable man, and the white man who killed him were known to be, was known to be a troublemaker. There's no need for war, but justice needs to be done." His eloquence, reasonable demeanor, and lawyer-like precision had stunned the government officials. To some white men, this strengthened his reputation as a commanding, well-spoken and honorable person. They kind of looked at him with newfound

• 18:40Danielle LaRock?

  respect, especially given the circumstances and his calmish demeanor and just very even-keeled. But to others, it suggested that he could be a dangerous enemy. While Joseph's presence and wit gained him respect amongst some, it was not enough to save his Wallowa Valley. In 1877, the government issued Joseph and the other non-treaty bands an ultimatum: relocate to the reservation in 30 days, or we'll escort you there by force. Joseph wanted to honor the promise that he made to his dad, to protect and remain in their native valley. Yet, he also had an obligation as a chief to his people, to keep them safe. So, after a lot of consideration, reluctantly, they packed up and prepared to move. But before they could

• 19:25Danielle LaRock?

  arrive, everything changed. To the south, an old Nez Perce man named Eagle Robe was killed by a white settler. As he lay dying, he made his son promise that he would not seek vengeance. But that was not a promise his son could keep, because his son had had enough. Joseph had wrestled with a promise made to a father and chose to protect his people. But now, as he reluctantly moved to the reservation, he got news of violence. Multiple men, and even children, lay dead along the Salmon River. Many more than just the man who had killed Eagle Robe. And while no one had endorsed this action, everyone would ultimately have to live with the consequences. So, are you tracking, essentially, the son

• 20:07Danielle LaRock?

  of Eagle Robe sought justice by killing a ton of white settlers?

• 20:11Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 20:12Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. After the violence at Salmon River, rather than continuing on to the reservation, the non-treaty Nez Perce regrouped at Weipe Prairie. Deciding whether to stay or whether to flee. To buy them some time, Joseph sent word to the pursuing army commander, General Howard, that he wished to discuss a surrender. And he sent word through a Christian Nez Perce messenger claiming that he would meet Howard on the reservation to discuss terms. And after Howard received word of this, he excitedly turned around and he retreated to meet with Joseph, but Joseph never came. Joseph's reputation among white leaders led reporters to call the group Joseph's Indians, but he was not the leader of the whole Nez Perce people.

• 20:57Danielle LaRock?

  In fact, if he had been, they might have stayed. His view was that if they could protect the women and children, he would rather die in his homeland than live in exile. But as we mentioned before, this was a tribe of many different bands, each with their own chief and ideas about where to go next and what decisions to make, join the treaty or not.

• 21:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  He kind of had like a subgroup of his people.

• 21:21Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, there were many.

• 21:23Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Danielle LaRock?

  Many different subgroups, but to the outside world and people who didn't understand that or didn't care to understand that.

• 21:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  They just thought everyone thought and believed the same exact thing.

• 21:34Danielle LaRock?

  Under Joseph's.

• 21:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes.

• 21:36Danielle LaRock?

  Leadership, essentially, yeah. But among the other chiefs of these different bands was a man named Chief Looking Glass, who argued that they should flee. Shortly after the violence at the Salmon River, Looking Glass's village was attacked by soldiers who had burned their lodges and trampled their crops. He believed their people should head east to Montana and search out their allies, the Crow. And while the group did consist of many different bands, they did agree that for this journey, they should sort of act as one unified group. And for that, they recognized Looking Glass as their trail leader. So they looked to him and appointed him as the decision maker and guide.

• 22:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 22:19Danielle LaRock?

  And so they started moving east to Montana and to their allies.

• 22:27Danielle LaRock?

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• 23:12Danielle LaRock?

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• 23:50Danielle LaRock?

  Making the journey were 800 men, women, children, and elders, over 1,000 horses, and any supplies that they could take with them. To distance themselves from their pursuers, even with such a large group, they took advantage of river crossings, something their people had done many, many, many different times. They had a ton of experience with, and luckily, the US Army did not. The Nez Perce knew where to cross and how to build boats to carry goods, but the pursuing army needed to fasten a rope on the opposing shore and drag themselves across. When the rope snapped or they picked the wrong place on the river to attempt a crossing, which was not uncommon and happened frequently, soldiers and horses would drown and their ammunition would get ruined.

• 24:34Danielle LaRock?

  For his part was not serving as a military leader, but he did manage the camp. He kept track of and cared for their horses and ensured supplies were being evenly distributed amongst everyone. The children, the elderly, the sick, et cetera. And it is one thing to know where you're heading. I mean, this is a big journey in and of itself.

• 24:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:55Danielle LaRock?

  They've done many times. I mean, this area, they know like the back of their hand. Their people have been utilizing routes in and around this area for thousands of years. But to get a group of that size across the Rockies is a huge feat.

• 25:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know. When you were talking about it, I was just imagining in a way smaller scale and not under such stress that they're in, but I was picturing our group trips where we have had thirty people on. And it's a challenge just because terrain, people have different needs, people have different abilities. And to take, and you think with thirty people, it can be a challenge. Not that it hasn't been super fun and great, but and that was under circumstances where we're out there having fun. And then you take this group of people who are fleeing, a pursuing milita- military group that is coming after them. And you have over eight hundred people that are crossing and a lot of them are children.

• 25:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  They're not adults and you have to feed them and then you have horses and you have camp. And it's just, I can't even, I really can't imagine the magnitude of how difficult a journey like that would be.

• 26:03Danielle LaRock?

  Absolutely. And it's so funny that you say that and make that comparison because my mind went to the same place.

• 26:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  Really? Yeah, it's like, it's the only thing I can compare to because I have nothing in my personal life that could even compare to that. So it's just like this small little corner where I'm like, wow, that was a challenge. Wow, wow. How, how are they doing this? And but like you said, this is something that their people have been doing for a very, very long time. But still.

• 26:32Danielle LaRock?

  But still, there are challenges.

• 26:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 26:35Danielle LaRock?

  And along the way, the Nez Perce encountered groups of white settlers, and each time, the chiefs assured them that they meant them no harm. They were just passing in peace, just as they had always done, because remember, at the beginning of when the first and only mention of Lewis Clark and Clark on this podcast.

• 26:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 26:52Danielle LaRock?

  That was of a rather friendly relationship that they had with them, and that was 70 years prior. And since then, they had made different encounters with white settlers and different groups. And they had made that promise, we're just, we're gonna be peaceful and friends, you know?

• 27:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:08Danielle LaRock?

  And I'm not trying to paint all the indigenous groups as, you know, super friendly and nice to white settlers. That's not the case. I'm very well aware of that, but in this particular.

• 27:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  Nor should it be, honestly. Uh, but in this particular circumstance, they truly did try to integrate themselves to be able to live amongst each other.

• 27:31Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, um, I have read Empire of the Summer Moon, and if you have not, I definitely recommend it. It is extremely brutal on both sides, uh, and very eye opening. Anyway, uh, so another book recommendation, if you don't want to read a 500 page book.

• 27:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  This one's 300 pages.

• 27:49Danielle LaRock?

  This one's just 495. Um, yeah, no, it's, it's really good. Anyway, okay, so they're trying to pass in peace and do their best to not ruffle any feathers and just kind of fly under the radar, but the white settlers had heard about the violence at Salmon River, and they were really scared. Newspapers had been reporting on the actions and movements of quote unquote, Joseph's Indians, while incorrectly attributing Joseph as the sole chief and leader of this entire group. And of course, as newspapers have always done, embellishing many different details along the way.

• 28:28Danielle LaRock?

  Coverage of the Nez Perce retreat would soon attract nationwide attention, but Looking Glass was intent on keeping the peace. He promised that there would be no killing and no stealing. They had goods to trade and then they would be on their way. And he meant it. Looking Glass carefully watched over the entire group, ensuring nobody spoke out of turn or raised their hand. Of particular concern were the young warriors, the men and boys who'd gotten themselves into this mess in the first place. Many of the young warriors had wished to stay and fight and resented this entire retreat. They were totally against this decision. They were pissed. They had had enough. But Looking Glass did his best to keep them and

• 29:08Danielle LaRock?

  their tempers in check. And with these efforts, peace was kept for a time. They traded for food and supplies and even invited some of the settlers to join them at their camp sites and campfires. And they would share food and drink and then move on their way. Moving 12 to 15 miles a day. Let that sink in for a second. 800, there's no way. What did we do in a day with 30 people? Tops.

• 29:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  I mean, we did do one that was like 20 miles.

• 29:34Danielle LaRock?

  We weren't carrying camp.

• 29:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, no, we were not. We are not. But we did do like 20 miles.

• 29:40Danielle LaRock?

  It was a rough.

• 29:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  We've never carried. It was a rough day.

• 29:44Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, I mean, that's like, that's like through hiking. AT hikers do like usually like 10, 14 miles a day and they're carrying their camp, but not in groups of 800 people. That's just. They're not carrying a thou- or they're carrying a thousand horses. No one's doing that. But you know.

• 30:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  The horses were, the horses weren't walking.

• 30:07Danielle LaRock?

  You know, but.

• 30:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  But to carry your entire lives with you.

• 30:10Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 30:10Cassandra Yahnian?

  12 to 14 miles a day. That's incredible. Oh, through the Rocky Mountains, too. This isn't just like a flat, nice trail. This is rough terrain.

• 30:20Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So averaging about 12 to 15 miles a day, trading with settlers as they went, the group was making some steady progress. Some thought that the pace was too slow, but did feel some relief as they had seen.

• 30:32Cassandra Yahnian?

  Too slow.

• 30:32Danielle LaRock?

  Well, because they're being pursued.

• 30:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, right, right.

• 30:36Danielle LaRock?

  So they're scared.

• 30:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  Still, I'm like 12 to 15, that's fair. I'm like, what do you mean, slow? That's a good, that's good. You guys are doing great.

• 30:43Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So they just thought that for, out of fear of being caught up with.

• 30:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, that totally makes sense.

• 30:51Danielle LaRock?

  But, you know, they kind of, their worries were a little. Assuaged when there was no sign of the military that they had seen at that up until that point. And in just a few weeks of traveling across rugged mountain terrain, they made it to Montana. Looking Glass, who set their pace, was confident that leaving Idaho meant leaving war behind. They were no longer in their traditional territory, and the army commander pursuing them, General Howard, was in charge of Idaho, not Montana. So, in his mind, in Looking Glass's mind, the people of Montana didn't have a problem with them. Like, no beef here. We're good.

• 31:30Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:31Danielle LaRock?

  They were still searching to find their allies, the Crow, but for now, they thought it was safe to take a pause and a well-deserved rest. Upon arriving in a valley known to the settlers as Big Hole, they set up camp. They erected a lodge for the sick and a maternity lodge for newborns. And actually, Joseph and his wife Springtime had just welcomed a new baby girl into the world. Young men stayed up late playing games and had fires into the night, a welcome rest after weeks of hard travel. Looking Glass had believed that escaping Idaho meant escaping the military, but he was wrong. The US military was not about to let the killing at Salmon River go, because to them, they had a score to settle. And it wasn't just

• 32:13Danielle LaRock?

  about that one incident. Just one year prior, the United States had been humiliated at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. George Armstrong Custer, representing the US Army, had been defeated by the Lakota Sioux and their chief Sitting Bull. And to make matters worse, the Sioux had escaped after the battle into Canada, where they remained out of reach of the US forces. The Nez Perce now possibly fleeing in that exact direction could pose a genuine threat if they joined up with Sitting Bull and the Sioux.

• 32:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  I love that you just mentioned this fact, because I just want to let listeners know, keep that information in your pocket for next week's episode, because we're gonna circle back to that exact moment.

• 32:53Danielle LaRock?

  Really?

• 32:53Cassandra Yahnian?

  For just a really brief moment in the episode, but yeah.

• 32:56Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, it's all coming together. This was planned.

• 33:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  This was planned. Yeah. I'm like, wait a second. I talk about this, this exact same thing too. So keep that in your brains.

• 33:08Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. Now I'm excited because I know very little about your story next week. So yay. Well, so that's on their, on the military's mind, you know, that could be a problem for them if they join forces. But perhaps most of all, the Nez Perce provided the army with an opportunity to save face. Since Custer's defeat, Congress had been criticizing the military and threatening their funding. And defeating the Nez Perce now could redeem them for their loss at the Little Big Horn.

• 33:36Cassandra Yahnian?

  Right.

• 33:37Danielle LaRock?

  Because of this, the army never relented in their pursuit of the Nez Perce and had begun sending telegrams ahead of their party to request additional support. Which is why, in the dead of night, 100 soldiers and volunteers who had marched south from Montana amassed around the Nez Perce camp. At the break of dawn, shots rang out. Army soldiers stormed the camp, lighting teepees on fire and shooting at anyone that moved. They fired low into the teepees to kill anyone still asleep or hiding on the ground, including women, children, and elders. Half-dressed and caught completely off-guard, the Nez Perce fought back fiercely with anything that they could, their fists, rocks, sticks, and eventually rifles.

• 34:20Danielle LaRock?

  They returned fire through the frantic, smoke-filled camp, but many fell to the soldiers' bullets. In the midst of it all, a young girl broke away from her mother and walked back to her teepee to retrieve her doll. Mistaking the sound of flying bullets for bees, she swatted around her head the entire way, before luckily, making it back to safety where her mother hid. The Nez Perce were ultimately able to fend off this attack, but the once-clear waters of the nearby creek ran red with blood. It was later reported that the troops killed 89 Nez Perce that day, conveniently left out the fact that at least 50 of those were women, children, and the elderly. The Nez Perce buried their dead and tried to regroup.

• 35:03Danielle LaRock?

  But stunned by the tremendous loss, they chose to elect to follow a new trail leader, a man named Poker Joe. Joe's time in Montana gave him knowledge of the region and his half-white heritage gave him an edge. It gave him a knowledge of English and the US Army strategy. Now he's trail leader and his first point of order was picking up the pace. Clearly, they had been completely caught off guard and they couldn't have anticipated that the attack came from the other direction. They had no idea that the army pursuing them called in for reinforcements, but still, that was enough. He wanted to get everyone going. They rose at first light and ate cold breakfasts to avoid campfire smoke,

• 35:47Danielle LaRock?

  which would give away their position. Each day, they marched non-stop till mid-morning, took a short break, and then marched again late into the night. This speed helped the Nez Perce distance themselves from the soldiers, but the breakneck pace, fear of discovery, and lack of rest took a big toll on the group. Their journey proved too painful for many of the wounded and too demanding for some of the elderly, with some of them begging to be left behind. And while painful, it was deemed necessary for the safety of the entire group. Left with meager rations and a blanket, many were left behind on the side of the trail, knowing full well that the pursuing army would kill them as soon as they were discovered.

• 36:31Speaker 04

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• 38:00Danielle LaRock?

  After many days of hard travel, tired and grief-stricken, the Nez Perce marched into Yellowstone. For many Nez Perce, the goal of this retreat was to join with the Crow people. After siding with the Crow in an earlier war against the Sioux, the Crow had promised the Nez Perce a lasting friendship. If they could just find them, their allies, they could recover from their losses and take a break from running and, you know, have some backup and reinforcement. Chief Looking Glass, no longer leading the people, volunteered to go ahead to meet up with the Crow and promised to return soon. But it wasn't the Crow that they first met upon arriving in Yellowstone. The Nez Perce had long traveled through what is now Yellowstone to hunt buffalo and knew the area really well, but they did not know much about the

• 38:43Danielle LaRock?

  area's newfound status as a park. Just five years earlier, in 1872, Yellowstone had become the nation's first national park. And though it was still rugged and completely underdeveloped comparatively to today, visitors had already begun making the journey into this new thing called a national park. And that summer, nine visitors had set up camp along the path of the Nez Perce. Seven men and two women, dancing and playing music around a campfire. Nez Perce scouts encountered the campers first, led by young warriors. Since their losses at Big Hole, men like these, some who were just boys, essentially, I mean, some were as young as 16 years old, had grown unruly. They were quote-unquote unruly, especially

• 39:28Danielle LaRock?

  compared to what the chiefs were trying to sustain.

• 39:33Cassandra Yahnian?

  Well, I'm sure they're really angry, too.

• 39:35Danielle LaRock?

  So angry.

• 39:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  I mean, they're kids and they've watched their people get murdered and they've had to flee their land. And you're also, I mean, when you're a teenager, you're just kind of angry anyway. Um, but then to have all of that on top of it.

• 39:50Danielle LaRock?

  Absolutely.

• 39:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Aim.

• 39:51Danielle LaRock?

  And, you know, as we discussed a little bit beforehand, the chiefs were struggling to control their tempers and hostility toward the white people that they encountered. These young men were stealing supplies and burning down white settler homes that they encountered along the way. And, you know, meanwhile, the older chiefs are like, oh, like we're just peacefully passing through, through. We don't want trouble. And then meanwhile.

• 40:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  They're causing trouble.

• 40:15Danielle LaRock?

  They're causing trouble and they're like, God damn it. Like, you know, so it's kind of this back and forth type of thing. But to the warriors, they believed they were just settling a score. Upon finding the tourists, the scouts began to search through their supplies for anything that they could use or destroy. But one of the male campers tried to stop them. In response, a warrior shot him and began beating him. Throughout all this commotion, all but three of the campers were able to escape the warriors. And the remaining were taken to the Nez Perce camp. These are tourists, the, some of the first tourists to Yellowstone National Park.

• 40:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 40:50Danielle LaRock?

  And this is what's unfolding. I just.

• 40:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  America's greatest idea.

• 40:54Danielle LaRock?

  Right.

• 40:55Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like advertised everywhere. Come see this beautiful landscape.

• 40:59Danielle LaRock?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  Unbeknownst to you, you're kind of in the middle of a battle zone because you have these huge conflicts that are happening.

• 41:07Danielle LaRock?

  That are still unfolding.

• 41:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:09Danielle LaRock?

  In the midst of, yeah, it's just such an, it's really an interesting, like in the Venn diagram, I think of what we, you know, when we reflect back on the history of national parks and the present day national parks. This frame, this point in time is just the, that overlap in that Venn diagram that we don't talk about much, you know, we don't cover a lot of stories that happen in this particular timeframe that have the, this type of overlap of elements going on. So it's just so interesting and like kind of unbelievable to try and imagine.

• 41:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  To picture, to picture this happening in Yellowstone.

• 41:51Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and yeah, to tort- I don't know. Yeah, it's just wild. Well, okay, so some of them are abducted and taken to camp. Yeah, and Joseph is outraged at this. Their people had been forced from their homelands because, you know, in his mind at this point, he views this action as this is the entire reason we're in this circumstance in the first place. And of course, there's so much more to that. And that's not even

• 42:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  But still, it's not helping their case.

• 42:19Danielle LaRock?

  Right, yeah, exactly. Because of warriors who he believed confused killing with protecting. Joseph personally, as a result, sheltered the remaining tourists, welcomed them into his camp and shared food with them. He handed one of the women, actually, who was still clearly very upset. You know, she had just seen someone get shot and beaten and they're abducted into this camp and, you know, she's freaking out. Joseph gives her an infant to hold in hopes that it would calm her down and communicate his good intentions and kind of be like, I come in peace type of thing, like, please, it's okay. I'm so sorry.

• 42:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Please, no one do that to me.

• 42:56Danielle LaRock?

  Here's this baby.

• 42:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, please don't hand me a baby under any circumstance.

• 43:03Danielle LaRock?

  It's like, that's doing the opposite. I'm even more upset now.

• 43:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, I'm nervous. Like, I would just, my thought would be like, I'd be holding this baby and I'd be like, I just don't have any knowledge about babies. So I'd be like, am I holding its head right? Like, am I gonna hurt its skull that's not fully developed? Like, what if it just like flops over like its neck while I'm supposed to be holding it? That would be, just don't do it. It's too much pressure for me to hold your child's life in my hands when they can't, if they can't hold their head up on their own yet, please do not hand me your baby.

• 43:34Danielle LaRock?

  It's so

• 43:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's too much pressure. I can't handle it.

• 43:38Danielle LaRock?

  I kind of think about it similarly as, you know, when you're walking through security, going through TSA, like, do I have cocaine on me? Do I have a kilo of cocaine in my pocket right now? It's like that when I hold a baby. I'm like, am I gonna drop it? Am I gonna drop this baby?

• 43:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like I've never held on to something so hard in my life. I'm like, don't squeeze it and suffocate it, but also like, you're not getting, you're not going anywhere.

• 44:03Danielle LaRock?

  Well, I'm always like, am I gonna sporadically just drop this thing?

• 44:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, is it gonna slip through my arms?

• 44:10Danielle LaRock?

  The same thing is, I know I don't have a kilo of coke. I know I'm not gonna just sporadically drop this.

• 44:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  But what if?

• 44:18Danielle LaRock?

  Thing. But what if? These are the questions you have to-

• 44:21Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's just too much. It's just too much pressure.

• 44:24Danielle LaRock?

  Long story short, no baby zone. I don't wanna, I don't want anything to do with it other than, I like looking at them.

• 44:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I think they're, I think babies are really cute and I think they're fun to talk to, but I just, they're, they're too fragile for me to, don't trust me with your baby.

• 44:40Danielle LaRock?

  From a distance.

• 44:41Cassandra Yahnian?

  From a distance. Yeah, I wanna wave and make cute little noises at them, but like, please.

• 44:46Danielle LaRock?

  Covid protocol, six feet.

• 44:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 44:48Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so he's doing all this, trying to smooth things over, but the young warriors were not on Joseph's wavelength at all. And they continued to shout threats and just be really intimidating.

• 45:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  So now she's being threatened with a baby in her hands.

• 45:05Danielle LaRock?

  While, hold, whilst holding.

• 45:06Cassandra Yahnian?

  See, that's even worse. That's worse. Now I would really be like, there's so much going on now. If I drop this baby in this moment, now I'm really, really-

• 45:17Danielle LaRock?

  Done for.

• 45:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Done for, yeah.

• 45:18Danielle LaRock?

  Well, to the young men who are upset still and shouting threats at them, you know, in their minds, their women and children hadn't, hadn't been spared at Big Hole. And, you know, so why the hell are we-

• 45:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  I totally see their anger.

• 45:37Danielle LaRock?

  So there's that part of it, but also their other concern were, hey, anybody that we leave alive and spare essentially are gonna tell soldiers exactly where we are and how to find us. We can't let them go.

• 45:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like, damage is done.

• 45:52Danielle LaRock?

  But Joseph and the other chiefs provided the campers with shelter, clothes and supplies and helped them escape. Poker Joe gave them horses and personally led them away while making a plea. When you find others, please tell them that the Nez Perce want no more fighting. But as all of this was unfolding in Yellowstone, the military was getting close. General Howard was still approaching from the south and another regiment was closing in from the north. Nez Pers were waiting for Looking Glass to return from his meeting with the crow. The army prepared to lay a trap. Colonel Sturgis, commanding forces north of Yellowstone, was planning to set a blockade to trap the Nez Pers, which would allow General Howard to catch up from behind.

• 46:36Danielle LaRock?

  Sturgis knew that there were only two canyons that the Nez Pers could use to escape from Yellowstone. Having read exaggerated reports on the Nez Pers warriors, he didn't want to risk splitting his forces to block both of those potential entrances. But he sent scouts south to watch their movements in hopes that he could see which canyon they decided to enter. And then he, in response, would move his forces to cut them off. But the Nez Pers anticipated this move from the Colonel. And Poker Joe came up with a brilliant plan to trick them. The people first marched towards the southern canyon, which would be easier to travel. Kind of like the easier pick of the two.

• 47:20Danielle LaRock?

  Then Joe had the warriors ride horses in massive circles at the mouth of the canyon, dragging branches on the ground to create a huge mess of footprints and kick up this big dust cloud and like all this commotion to draw attention in uh over to that area. And seeing this cloud of dust and hearing the commotion and all of that, Sturgis moved all of his troops into position, just as he had planned to do. But while the warriors and their horses got Sturgis's attention, the majority of the people in the group turned northward, escaping instead through the second canyon. And while this route was much more difficult to navigate and it was considerably more steep and difficult, their plan worked to perfection.

• 48:05Danielle LaRock?

  Sturgis waited at the mouth of the wrong canyon and cherry on top, General Howard fell for the dust trial as well, meeting a thoroughly confused Sturgis at the other end. Which is just a moment. I really wholeheartedly wish I was a fly on that canyon wall to see these two militant groups coming from both ends.

• 48:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Coming together and ready for their fight.

• 48:31Danielle LaRock?

  And they see each other. Like hello.

• 48:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like looking up like where, where did everyone go?

• 48:38Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. The Nez Perce meanwhile had escaped, making their way out of the mountains and on to the Great Plains. After this daring escape, they regrouped with Looking Glass, who had ventured ahead to meet with the Crow, the group that had promised to be their allies, and who the Nez Perce hoped would come to their aid. But the Crow had found themselves in a very similar position that the Nez Perce did. They were faced with mounting pressures from white settlement, they were fearful of angering the military, and they were intent on keeping the peace by whatever means necessary. And some among the Crow had actually even joined the US military as to work as scouts, interpreters, and even as fighters. So, long story short, the Crow

• 49:22Danielle LaRock?

  couldn't risk their own safety by aiding the Nez Perce. So that was, that option was kind of out. With the military on their heels and their closest allies turning their backs on them, they only had one option remaining: escape north into Canada. The days were growing short and cold, and despite the relative ease of traveling across the Great Plains, the people were now running low on supplies. Tensions were high, the young warriors raided white supply caches against the wishes of the elders, and arguments broke out over the pace that Poker Joe was now forcing. Chief Looking Glass argued that the elders and children were, they were exhausted. You know, it's, they've been at this for so long, and they've

• 50:04Danielle LaRock?

  been through so much, and the people are tired, you know? And he also made the argument that, hey, we, we tricked them. We did it. You know, Howard and his men are far behind at this point, and Canada was only a couple days away. A couple easy days. Comparatively, they had just gone through the Rockies, and now they're on the Great Plains, and it's just a couple days away. So essentially, he's advocating that they slow down, slow their pace, allow everyone to rest, and in this way, it would also give the women in the group time to sew new warmer clothing and get people ready for the temperatures that were dropping. It's getting later in the season, they're going farther north. So, the group gathered to consider these points and consider what the best next move would be.

• 50:49Danielle LaRock?

  And ultimately, they they agreed that they would slow down, once again, electing Looking Glass as trail leader. With Looking Glass in control, they made camp in a wind-sheltered hollow near the hills known as Bear's Paw, just forty miles from the Canadian border. And Poker Joe accepted this decision, you know, he was outnumbered and outruled with that, but he offered a warning, "You can take control, but I think we will all be caught and killed."

• 51:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oof, that is a warning.

• 51:20Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 51:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's like, you can do it, but we're all gonna die.

• 51:23Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. He had set a difficult pace, but he was right to be concerned. On September thirtieth, much like they had at Big Hole, US forces ambushed the Nez Perce at Bear's Paw. Led by a man named Colonel Miles, the forces had caught wind of the Nez Perce from their station about a hundred and fifty miles to the east of their location at Bear's Paw. And Miles had his sights set, because he had a goal of earning a general star, and he would do it at any cost. So as a result, he drove his troops relentlessly. They marched from five or six in the morning, sometimes well past midnight, for nearly two weeks straight,

• 52:05Danielle LaRock?

  all in an effort to cut off the Nez Perce before they reached Canada and safety. So on September thirtieth, the Colonel and his men did just that. They surrounded the Nez Perce camp and fired down from surrounding hills, catching the group completely off-guard. And to cut off their means of escape, soldiers rode screaming through the Nez Perce horseherd, scattering their only means of an escape. At least twenty were killed during the initial attack, including Joseph's brother and Poker Joe. And unlike at Big Hole, the Nez Perce were not able to repel these forces. So instead, they dug in for another brutal attack. They dug shelter holes to protect themselves from bullets,

• 52:48Danielle LaRock?

  and held out hope that Chief Sitting Bull would come down from Canada to rescue them. So close to the border, they had sent runners ahead to call for help. And despite the betrayal of the Crow, Chief Looking Looking Glass believed that the Sioux would answer the call. Throughout freezing temperatures and sporadic gunfire, they anxiously scanned the horizon in desperate hope for backup. Eventually, Looking Glass saw what he believed could be the Sioux in the distance, and rose from his cover to get a better look, only to be shot right through the head, falling dead in his shelter hole. It became clear to many of the Nez Perce that the Sioux were not coming. And to make matters worse, Colonel Miles received reinforcements. General Howard, who had been on their trail for months, had finally caught up.

• 53:34Danielle LaRock?

  For five days, they held out with little food and watched their loved ones fall to bullet wounds while children suffered from frostbite. It was now clear to Joseph that hope of a Nez Perce victory had come to an end. Even those who still wished to escape could see that without any horses, the children, and especially the elderly, stood no chance at all to flee through the snow. And if you have heard, I'm actually gonna pause here really quick. So have you heard any of this story before?

• 54:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  No.

• 54:06Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, you might know this one portion of the story because it's it's pretty, I think this this interaction here is pretty well-known. But I am the same, I knew little to nothing about this entire story, except for some names, of course, Sitting Bull, Chief Joseph. Like, I I've recognized those names, but this one point in the story, I think a lot of people may recognize. And it's what he did next, what Joseph did next. Under a flag of truce, Joseph walked to meet Colonel Miles, and in full view of both armies, extended his hand as a sign of peace,

• 54:47Danielle LaRock?

  saying, "Hear me, my chiefs, I am tired, my heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever." And Miles was ready to accept Joseph's surrender. But Joseph was adamant that this is, you know, not a surrender, it's a negotiation to end the bloodshed. His people would give up their weapons if they must. But Joseph insisted they must be also insured safe passage to their homeland after winter. Miles, surprise, surprise, was not interested in any sort of negotiation. Yet, over time, just as before with others who had interactions with Joseph, really grew to admire him and the Nez Perce people as a whole.

• 55:31Danielle LaRock?

  He had read reports on each time the band had outsmarted or repelled the US Army, perhaps picturing as the newspapers claimed this massive group of warriors and these bloodthirsty people. Yet the group that he was looking at right in front of him were families and children and elderly and there was newborn babies and people that were treating captives with kindness. And they had dignity after defeat and they just carried themselves so well. And it was not at all what the newspapers were depicting them to be.

• 56:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  And not who they thought that they were fighting. They just went in and ambushed what they thought were a bunch of warriors come to find its elderly and women and children. For the most part.

• 56:17Danielle LaRock?

  He found Joseph to be an honorable man and promised him that his people could return to their homelands after the winter. Welcoming the survivors into their camp, they shared supplies and planned to move to a nearby fort for a few months to wait out the weather. Joseph and the Nez Perce, God bless them, were confident in this promise. But like many promises before, it would not be kept. Admittedly, it was not Miles's fault. He genuinely wished the best for the Nez Perce and worked to return them to their homeland. But it was not his promise to make. You know, like he could say, yes, and I want that for you. Sure, we'll do it. But he's not in command. He's not the end all be all of say.

• 57:02Danielle LaRock?

  The head of the army, General Sherman, wanted the Nez Perce out of their hands and out of the headlines.

• 57:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like the General Sherman tree?

• 57:10Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, yeah, probably. Oh, probably.

• 57:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, that tree needs a new name.

• 57:17Danielle LaRock?

  We'll do some research.

• 57:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  Backup.

• 57:21Danielle LaRock?

  Research, but I would guarantee, I would almost bet. A lot of money that, yeah, because he was the general, US general.

• 57:29Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 57:30Danielle LaRock?

  Of the army. Yeah. General shirt. Yes. I'm gonna say yes. Please double check for you.

• 57:37Danielle LaRock?

  But yeah, I do want to say that. Elevator music.

• 57:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  To honor Union Army General William Tecumseh Sherman.

• 57:49Danielle LaRock?

  When did he?

• 57:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  1879. Or wait, the German tree was named in 1879.

• 57:56Danielle LaRock?

  Well, this is taking place in 1877, so.

• 57:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's gotta be.

• 58:01Danielle LaRock?

  It's him.

• 58:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, it's gotta be.

• 58:03Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, well, I'm gonna share a little bit more of information on this man. And now we can all look at this beautiful, amazing tree a little differently, maybe. At least what it's named after. I'm not gonna hold anything against the tree itself, but.

• 58:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, the tree is amazing.

• 58:22Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, so General Sherman, the person, wanted the Nez Perce out of their hands and out of the headlines. And he also wanted to make an example of them so that no other tribes would dare deny government orders in the future and ever try and go against the US military. So he ordered the Nez Perce be shipped east, closer to quote unquote civilization, where they would be cheaper to care for and farther from their home. Miles argued with Sherman over this decision and made the case that Joseph and his people should be allowed to return, but he was unsuccessful. In the next eight months, the Nez Perce were sent thousands of miles away through a series of military outposts, by river to a fort in North Dakota, by train to Fort in Kansas,

• 59:07Danielle LaRock?

  and finally to a reservation in Oklahoma that they were told was their new permanent home.

• 59:21Speaker 05

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• 59:51Danielle LaRock?

  Now farther than ever from home, the Nez Perce were faced with horrid conditions on this reservation. Suffering from illnesses and near famine. But Joseph refused to accept this new reservation, or the broken promises that the government had made once again. Ultimately, he decided that if he was going to effect change in the government, he couldn't do it from Oklahoma. So, he set off to Washington DC. Unbeknownst to Joseph, throughout the flight of 1877, embellished accounts of the Nez Perce retreat had become headline news in national newspapers. He had no idea, but of course, everyone's talking about it. Articles painted him as a master military strategist, a quote-unquote "red Napoleon."

• 1:00:36Danielle LaRock?

  After their defeat at Bear's Paw, they spoke of him, the newspapers and the media, spoke of him as this heroic symbol of resistance, like a George Washington of his people. They also criticized the US military for their expensive failings and questionable decision-making. The New York Times called the whole endeavor, a quote, "war which on our part was in its origin and motive nothing short of a gigantic blunder and a crime." And while these articles were often wildly embellished, public sympathies shifted in favor of the Nez Perce, and Joseph himself held considerable presence in the public mind. When Joseph boarded a train, first to St. Louis and then to DC, he planned to make his

• 1:01:21Danielle LaRock?

  case to the government in person. And yet, as he and fellow chief Yellow Bull, who was with him, traveled in full regalia, they attracted a lot of attention. Speaking through their interpreter, they fielded questions aboard the train, and upon arriving at a hotel dining room, were absolutely inundated with curious...

• 1:01:42Danielle LaRock?

  People would never seen an indigenous person before and now all of a sudden there's two in full regalia in your hotel lobby. You know, they are super interested and of course have read all about him and everything that was going on.

• 1:01:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  So I guess a celebrity just walked in.

• 1:01:58Danielle LaRock?

  Right, exactly. And they're all eager to see this, the, what the papers were calling, quote unquote, "the most famous Indian in America." And before long, he was addressing a packed room, sharing the plight of his people. Among the crowd was a local reporter who accurately recorded Joseph's speech and the lengthy ovation that he received when he was done. And to Joseph, this reporter's notebook was a complete surprise because for years, his words had been distorted by unreliable government officials, twisted, turned, things were omitted or added. So this was a welcome surprise. So now, he came to understand that so long as a reporter was in the room, any speech

• 1:02:40Danielle LaRock?

  he gave could reach all of white America, a fact that he would use to his advantage in the years to come. On January 17th, in Lincoln Hall in Washington DC, standing before a crowd of citizens, congressmen, and cabinet members, Joseph spoke for an hour, telling the story of his people, the broken promises that forced them from their homes, and the 1,500 mile journey that they had taken in pursuit of freedom. He spoke of their current confinement in Oklahoma and their desire to return to their home. He invoked the religious teachings his father once took from the Bible and begged the government to offer his people more than just words, saying, quote, "Good words will not give

• 1:03:23Danielle LaRock?

  me back my children, will not give my people good health and stop them from dying, will not get my people a home where they can live in peace. I am tired of talk that comes to nothing." The speech was a huge success, and to the audience who had never seen an indigenous person before, Joseph was every bit the noble leader that they had read about. The speech earned them an audience with President Rutherford B. Hayes the following day, and was soon published in a widely-read journal. Cementing his reputation, but this speech alone would not end their exile. While he won hearts and minds, Joseph faced stern opposition. For one, Western senators lobbied relentlessly against his return. But on the other side of the coin, he found several allies.

• 1:04:08Danielle LaRock?

  The Presbyterian Church, moved by the advocacy of Christian Nez Perce members, joined the voices in favor to return the Nez Perce to their homelands. And as Joseph continued to make trips to Washington, some of his trips were funded by his friend Colonel Miles, who had since moved up in the military. In eighteen eighty-one, Miles had landed General Howard's old job as the commander of forces in the Pacific Northwest. And from that new position, he lobbied for the Nez Perce's return. He cited the lack of evidence against Joseph's people in the case of the Salmon River killings. And his supervisors basically told him to shut up and stay in your lane. This isn't your decision to make.

• 1:04:50Danielle LaRock?

  But Colonel Miles remained steadfast, saying, quote, "I still adhere to my opinion that to banish a village of people, many of them innocent, is not in accordance with any law or just rule. And therefore, I recommend that the portion of the tribe not charged with crime be allowed to return to their reservation." In the face of mounting public and internal pressure, Congress authorized the return of the Nez Perce to their territory in July of eighteen eighty-four, seven years after the outbreak of war. So General Miles, or Colonel Miles.

• 1:05:25Cassandra Yahnian?

  Came back. He came back. Honest word.

• 1:05:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. I mean, he started off bad, you know, he did some bad things.

• 1:05:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  His mind was changed.

• 1:05:33Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, his heart was one, and he, he did do a lot of good for, for them. The offer was to return to the Lapway Reservation in Nez Perce Territory. The same reservation Joseph had once tried to move on to before the Salmon, Salmon River attack. So we're kind of circling all the way back to the beginning and that general area that they were on their way to before the Salmon River incident happened and everything went to shit. But there was a problem. There were still warrants out for a number. Number of Nez Perce in Idaho, including Joseph himself. Joseph's use of his reputation to bring people to his side also served to turn some further against him. Vocal white settlers didn't bother to veil threats about the vigilante justice that they would enact on him if

• 1:06:18Danielle LaRock?

  they would return there, like, uh, see what happens to you, you know? Um, so while he's winning over a lot of people, the settlers in and around the location that they want to go to are still, uh, hold violence, is gonna, are gonna enact violence on them, you know? So there's that. Um, so again, they talk a lot about what is to be done? What are we gonna do next? And what are people feeling? And do they feel safe doing this or not? And in the end, 118 people chose to return to the reservation at Lapway, and the remaining 150 people, including Joseph, accepted invitations to the Calville Reservation in northern Washington.

• 1:06:59Danielle LaRock?

  Joseph was wary that this agreement would relinquish his right to the Wauwawa and didn't wish to continue living in exile, but once again, decided to put his people first. Joseph's life's mission had been to keep the promise he made to his father, a promise he would fight to keep for the rest of his life. As the years went on, Joseph continued to tell the story of the Nez Perce, their connection to the Wauwawa, and their rightful claim to return. He spoke again in DC at the Seattle Theater and to President Theodore Roosevelt. He spoke before a University of Washington football game, and even once had the chance to make his case to the white settlers of the Wauwawa. And while he still drew large crowds, the reception of his words began to shift.

• 1:07:42Danielle LaRock?

  At best, he began to evoke a sort of nostalgia for a time long gone. At worst, he was met with ridicule. The settlers in particular mocked him as antiquated and delusional. And so, despite his efforts, there was never any serious thought given to his return to the Wauwawa. Here's another quote from the book I mentioned earlier in the episode. The author says, "The American people, like the American government, were happy to lionize him as a symbol of the nation's exotic frontier past." But they had no interest in seeing him as a person with a legitimate legal dispute in the present. And truth is, there is so much more to the story that could ever fit in one episode.

• 1:08:24Danielle LaRock?

  I mean, I wouldn't be shocked if there's an entire podcast dedicated to this flight and this, this chapter in history. And of course, if you want to know more, there's that 500-page book. But because it's kind of our thing in this podcast, the story, of course, is tied to a national park, aside from that period of time in Yellowstone.

• 1:08:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yep. Okay.

• 1:08:47Danielle LaRock?

  The Nez Perce National Historical Park consists of 38 places of importance to the history and culture of the Nez Perce throughout Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Montana. And the Nez Perce National Historic Trail, a network of sites along the exact route that they took in 1877, including Big Hole and Bear Paw Battlefields, and of course, Yellowstone National Park. You can also visit the Wallauga Valley and the Grave of Joseph's Father. The grave of Old Chief Joseph is located at the Old Chief Joseph Grave Site, a National Park Service site at the northern end of the Wallauga Lake near Joseph, Oregon.

• 1:09:28Danielle LaRock?

  His original burial site was desecrated and his remains were moved to its current location in 1926 at the request of community leaders, but is now protected by the National Park Service. As for Joseph, he lived the rest of his life on the Calville Reservation, where he died in 1904 and was later buried. He received a quarter-page article in the New York Times going over his life and all his accomplishments and everything that happened with the Flight of 1877. But his doctor may well have said it best. Chief Joseph died of a broken heart. And that is my story on the Flight of the Nez Perce in 1877.

• 1:10:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  Uh, well, thank you for shedding a light on what feels like should be more commonly known and, but it's something that I never, I truly had never heard this story before. And I just kind of. Now think of that region a little bit differently, I guess, especially how you painted Yellowstone. It's never really, I've never heard that story of tourists and indigenous people clashing while there were battles with settlers going on at the same time, you know, so I think I kind of view things a little bit differently now and it it shed a lot of light on something that I didn't know a lot about.

• 1:10:46Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and I'm glad you say that because, you know, when we were planning out our stories to honor Indigenous History Month, of course, the Trail of Tears is one of the first stories that I almost reached for and that we've talked about doing before and it not that it's unworthy, but I think of all of the indigenous stories that we hear, a lot of us are familiar with the Trail of Tears, or at least somewhat understanding of that event and everything that led up to it. But, you know, this is something that's very similar and, you know, I think we all have a grasp on the themes of this story of the broken promises and indigenous people being forced off their lands

• 1:11:31Danielle LaRock?

  and onto reservations and this, that, and the other thing. But I think this story perfectly illustrates just the position that they were in of like, where do I turn? Where am I, how, like, you know, I just pictured this between a rock and a hard place to put it very lightly, you know, and to dumb it down, you know, just really stuck in this impossible situation where you you can't win. You're being unfairly treated.

• 1:11:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  And having nowhere to turn, being pursued with the nowhere to go. I mean, you're crossing states, hundreds of miles, and still you're being tracked down. And from everything, this whole story, it was just people trying to live with their families and trying to live on the land that they've lived in for generations and they were killed for it.

• 1:12:19Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so that and then, you know, when they couldn't have that, they're like, okay, I guess we'll go on to this reservation you're talking about. And then they try and do that and then it changes again. Okay, you can't go to that reservation. You're actually going to Oklahoma, someplace called Oklahoma. You know, they've never even

• 1:12:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:36Danielle LaRock?

  Heard of that. You know, it's just like one thing after another.

• 1:12:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  To Oklahoma, but if you live in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming area, and that is where your people have been for generations. And then you go to Oklahoma, it is a totally different world. I mean, it, the landscape is so different. The vegetation is so different. The weather is so different. I mean, your people have been living and surviving off of these lands. And to just throw you in this landscape that you've never been in before.

• 1:13:05Danielle LaRock?

  And then on top of that, you know, which is a whole nother piece of this giant puzzle of it's not just you. It's other indigenous bands and tribes and nations that are just being shoved in this parcel of land with you that you either you may not know, or you may have been enemies with, or you know, whatnot. And now it's like, you know, just because you're indigenous, doesn't mean that you're all this all kumbaya. Let's sing around a fire. Everything's good, you know? And then of course, we see up until today, reservations are the poorest areas and the most difficult area in the United States.

• 1:13:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  You know, and you mentioned too, where they were promised schools would be built and infrastructure. None of it ever happened. And it's the same. I mean, a lot of these reservations, which we've found in stories is they, the US government would say, here, yep, you can have this piece of land. But then as soon as they found that that land had value, they would push them somewhere else. So eventually.

• 1:14:08Danielle LaRock?

  Killers of the Flower Moon?

• 1:14:09Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, Sage Nation? Hello? Yeah.

• 1:14:13Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. It's just like a lot of these people were pushed onto these nearly inhabitable lands or places that they just were not familiar with and were, and a lot of these places were deemed invaluable. A lot of them are super remote, you know, not a lot of resources. And like you said, they're some of the poorest, the today, they're some of the poorest places around the United States and.

• 1:14:37Danielle LaRock?

  And they were set up to fail.

• 1:14:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:39Danielle LaRock?

  You know?

• 1:14:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  There was, I mean, the US government set them up and then said, yeah, we'll give you stuff. And then they took them from all of their resources, everything that they knew how to survive with. And then the US government was like, we'll take care of like what you need and then just left them there and gave them nothing.

• 1:14:53Danielle LaRock?

  Right. Yeah.

• 1:14:59Speaker 05

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• 1:15:31Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, so, you know, we could go on and on about all that and all the injustices and stuff, but I think this story kind of speaks for itself with that. And just a reminder of, you know, what indigenous people have gone through throughout history and still face today. And, you know, their presence is needed and they're the best stewards of our, of our lands and they're still here and fighting for their, the rights to this, a lot of the same land. So, yeah.

• 1:16:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. And I think that this is another story where it's like, yeah, we're painting US history not in a great light, but that's because it's, this is the history. It's not, it's not something that is being made up on our end or anything to be like, let's show how bad the US is. That's not it at all, at all. It's just, it's the history of America and how we came here and how the people who were here before us and the people who are still here, which I think is amazing, given everything that they have been through and essentially they have been tried to be eradicated from this land. They're still here. They still have the stories. That culture is still here. It should be honored, not shoved away. And it should be bringing their history and their plight should be brought more into

• 1:16:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  sight for people to learn and know and live. I mean, now we're all here, you know? It's like now we have to live amongst each other and figure it out. We might as well embrace all the history that's here for what it is and move forward from there.

• 1:17:00Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, just recognize it for what it is. And it's such a good point because I think I know what you're referring to, but we got a couple. Like, not a couple. Eh, yeah, a couple. Wasn't a lot. But a couple of comments after the Mount Rushmore episode we did and, you know, people basically saying like, sorry, you hate your country so much. And it's like, we don't, we actually love our country. And that's why we want to tell its history in its entirety and truthfully. And sorry, it's upsetting that this, sorry, we get upset here, learning about stuff, fucked up things that have happened in history. Like, I'm sorry that this is upsetting, that a group of people were treated this way. Yes, it, it hurts my soul

• 1:17:41Danielle LaRock?

  to hear those things. But it's important to share the stories. And that's why we, that's why we do this whole thing, you know? So, um, yeah, let's have our palate cleanser.

• 1:17:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yes. So, we're in luck because

• 1:17:55Danielle LaRock?

  I'm like, oh, shoot.

• 1:17:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  No, my phone was like, I saw it in the corner of my eye through here, just like blowing up. So

• 1:18:02Danielle LaRock?

  Where did you post it, by the way?

• 1:18:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  I just put it on our Patreon. So if you're, if you're not on Patreon, and you're not familiar, Patreon has a chat box where we can kind of chat with you directly, or you can chat with us directly. So I basically sent a direct message to all of our Patreon members and just said, we're recording an episode right now. What questions would you like to answer?

• 1:18:27Danielle LaRock?

  Yay.

• 1:18:27Cassandra Yahnian?

  And we have a lot of them. So I guess we can go through.

• 1:18:33Danielle LaRock?

  Let's go through, how long have we been recording? I can't tell the time. Time flies.

• 1:18:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  We'll do a handful of them and we'll come back and do some more later.

• 1:18:42Danielle LaRock?

  Okay. Oh, this is fun. Because I don't know what's coming.

• 1:18:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Becca asked, any funny slash unexpected things that happened on Cassie's wedding day?

• 1:18:51Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. It fucking, the heavens opened like I've never seen before. I, okay.

• 1:19:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  No exaggeration.

• 1:19:01Danielle LaRock?

  Say, rain on your wedding day. Good luck. It's good luck. Well, you got luck for the rest of your lifetime. Because

• 1:19:07Cassandra Yahnian?

  I sure do.

• 1:19:08Danielle LaRock?

  That, there was like, actual legit, like your phone alarm, alert for severe weather, take shelter.

• 1:19:18Cassandra Yahnian?

  Power lines were down.

• 1:19:20Danielle LaRock?

  The skies opened and I've never, I haven't seen rain and wind like that since probably, remember Hurricane Sandy that came through? I'm not even kidding.

• 1:19:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  And for context, my venue was on top of a mountain.

• 1:19:38Danielle LaRock?

  All outside.

• 1:19:39Cassandra Yahnian?

  All outside. I had planned everything outside and this storm came through. My ceremony was at four P M. It ripped through at exactly, it was like three forty five when.

• 1:19:51Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:19:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  It just ripped through, hammered through the, the saving grace with it is that it was a passing storm.

• 1:19:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:58Cassandra Yahnian?

  But it was wild out. It was downpouring. There was thunder. There was lightning. People were driving up. So my venue, it was like a mile long dirt road up a steep hill to get to the top of this place. And people who were driving from pretty far away said they saw power lines down. They couldn't see out their windshield trying to get to the ceremony because the rains were coming down so hard. And I was so set on getting married outside. So we actually just switched things around a little bit and I did my cocktail hour first. And I came out for the cocktail hour and came and hung out with everybody because I could see people through a window, like

• 1:20:38Cassandra Yahnian?

  all talking and having fun. And I was like, people can't have fun at my wedding without me. So I like ran out still. I had my wedding dress on and everyone saw me before the ceremony, which was fun and fine. And I just hung out for my whole cocktail hour and then the skies cleared and we had a rain free ceremony and it was beautiful.

• 1:20:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, but it was shocking.

• 1:21:00Cassandra Yahnian?

  It was shocking.

• 1:21:01Danielle LaRock?

  Shocking. Um, so yeah, that would be my answer to that.

• 1:21:05Cassandra Yahnian?

  Great. Um, let's go to the next thing. Kelsey asked, is my dog a cute travel buddy? And put the cutest dog, um, yes.

• 1:21:16Danielle LaRock?

  I believe you.

• 1:21:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  I forget the, it's, um, the same, what's the type of dog that is the target dog?

• 1:21:22Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, a bull terrier.

• 1:21:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  A bull terrier. It's a picture of a bull terrier. It's really, really cute. Um, let's see. Jessica asked weirdest slash funniest thing that's ever happened on an N P A D trip.

• 1:21:36Danielle LaRock?

  Okay, I'm gonna be so honest. I have a really hard time recalling individual trips and details about trips. Um, so this is gonna take me a moment.

• 1:21:47Cassandra Yahnian?

  I have mine.

• 1:21:48Danielle LaRock?

  What is it?

• 1:21:49Cassandra Yahnian?

  Front and center of my brain. Okay, so we were in Madagascar and we were on rickshaws going down.

• 1:21:57Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, okay. Yes, it's all coming back to me.

• 1:22:01Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's all coming back. So we were on rickshaws, which are the, you don't know what a rickshaw is, Google it, because I don't know if my, if my description is going to be fully accurate, but it's basically a carriage that you sit in that is pulled by another person. Sometimes they're pulled by animals, not in this case, they were other people. And they get paid for this and everything. And they were, it's an actual form of transportation in Madagascar. So we were doing that. And we were going down this little cobblestone road and suddenly we hear yelling and screaming happening in front of us. And I look up and I see a zebu and a zebu is basically the biggest bull you've ever seen.

• 1:22:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  That has a huge camel's hump on the back of it. These things are massive.

• 1:22:52Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  And I see this thing charging.

• 1:22:56Danielle LaRock?

  It's on the loose.

• 1:22:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's on the loose. It escaped. It's charging down this cobblestone road that is one lane wide, coming straight at us.

• 1:23:05Danielle LaRock?

  Also, everybody is on their individual rickshaw. So there's what, like fifteen to twenty of us, all like Mario Karting around.

• 1:23:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  On these individual rickshaws.

• 1:23:16Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:16Cassandra Yahnian?

  So we take up the entire road. Like if this bull like hit us, it would be like bowling. It would just, it would be like pin. Yeah. And so I look, I see this zebu coming down. My, the guy handling my rickshaw, he sees it, drops me and runs. Just drops me in the middle of the road and runs. So I jump out and I follow him into somebody's yard. And he's hiding behind a fence. And I was like, excuse me.

• 1:23:49Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:23:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Meanwhile, everyone else's rickshaw people turned and like ran them to the sides of the road so the bull could like, so the zebu could run through, but mine just like left me there to.

• 1:24:03Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and the aftermath of this, so it's chaotic, everyone is going crazy because it's not just us, we're in a crowded city center, there's people with their shops everywhere and people hustling and bustling around.

• 1:24:17Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we were not the only ones around.

• 1:24:19Danielle LaRock?

  So whatever, everybody scatters and the escaped zebu still has almost like a halter with a lead on it that it's dragging. Somehow someone wrangles it, ties the thing around a, it looks like a telephone pole type of like.

• 1:24:35Cassandra Yahnian?

  But I think it's just like a pole, yeah.

• 1:24:38Danielle LaRock?

  And he's climbed, the guy has climbed the pole and this thing is freaking out, it's pissed off and they're trying to wrangle it, it's a whole thing. We end up getting on our rickshaws and just moving right along.

• 1:24:52Cassandra Yahnian?

  Like nothing ever happened.

• 1:24:53Danielle LaRock?

  Yep.

• 1:24:54Cassandra Yahnian?

  Made our day, honestly. We had stories all day.

• 1:24:57Danielle LaRock?

  Somebody has a really funny video of that whole thing unfolding. Do you?

• 1:25:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:03Danielle LaRock?

  You do.

• 1:25:04Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's not me filming, um, and the person who was filming was, so I was in the very front and the person who was filming was in the very back, so they get everyone else, but they don't get me dropped. Um, so you don't get to see that part in the video, but you do get to see everyone scattering and like laughing and running.

• 1:25:21Danielle LaRock?

  You're gonna have to, you know, you're gonna have to post that now.

• 1:25:24Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I'll have to post it for sure.

• 1:25:26Danielle LaRock?

  I guess my, hold on, wait, I have an answer. It's not quite as long, it'll be short, but you just, when you said Madagascar, I'm like, what else happened to me around that time? And I was like, oh yeah, our trip to South Africa happened immediately prior to that. And the one thing that's, it's not funny, then it's kind of funny now, but we had plans to go to a really nice winery and.

• 1:25:51Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's still not funny now, but.

• 1:25:54Danielle LaRock?

  You're laughing. Um, so we had plans to go to a very nice winery. It was on the itinerary for the beginning of, for the year prior. Everyone stoked. They have really cute outfits and, you know, take pictures, have a nice wine. Our plan was not only to visit it, but we were having a a tasting and it was a whole event. And this winery, it was massive and it was from the 1600s.

• 1:26:19Cassandra Yahnian?

  It's in wine country. Like this is like the thing you do here. Beautiful, amazing.

• 1:26:24Danielle LaRock?

  Yep. So everyone's prepared and all that. And long story short, we had conflicts with our, our guide, which was the only time. I mean, we have run well over 15 trips, never had any sort of issue. Everyone we work with is usually very lovely. This one, we butted heads with a little bit. Um, and he switched things up on us, uh, unbeknownst to us and the entire group. And essentially, long story short, we went shark cage diving in the morning and.

• 1:26:56Cassandra Yahnian?

  Where they throw chum on you.

• 1:26:59Danielle LaRock?

  We got into the cage and the operators of that particular company used chum and they didn't just throw it out on a line. They poured it over the side of the boat directly onto the cage, which we were inside of. And, okay, part of the experience. It's fine. Um, what was not fine is we were not given, uh, time to prepare for the winery, which we were not supposed to do directly after said cage diving.

• 1:27:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  We went from chum waters.

• 1:27:33Danielle LaRock?

  Directly.

• 1:27:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Directly to the winery. Those poor staff.

• 1:27:39Danielle LaRock?

  I can't even imagine what this group of people smelled like, looked like. We looked, I looked like a drowned rat.

• 1:27:45Cassandra Yahnian?

  We all looked like drowned rats, but we smelled like fish.

• 1:27:53Danielle LaRock?

  I was like, I hope no one was really looking forward to this because.

• 1:27:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  I hope you guys weren't waiting your entire trip to do this portion.

• 1:28:02Danielle LaRock?

  Anyway, okay, one last one, one last.

• 1:28:03Cassandra Yahnian?

  We'll do one more. We have so many. Okay. Um, so we'll add some of these later. Let's see. There's so many. Um.

• 1:28:12Danielle LaRock?

  Elevator music.

• 1:28:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you had to re-record one episode, what would it be and why?

• 1:28:24Danielle LaRock?

  Oh, honey, episodes one through 48, easy.

• 1:28:28Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, I second that.

• 1:28:30Danielle LaRock?

  Why was it?

• 1:28:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Crazy.

• 1:28:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Our audio is crazy on all of them.

• 1:28:37Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:37Cassandra Yahnian?

  But our hearts were in it. Our hearts were in it.

• 1:28:39Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and they still are. But yeah, I don't, that is a good question. I'm not sure if there's like one that really stands out to me as far as wanting to re-record because I do everything in my power to never listen back to anything we say, ever.

• 1:28:57Danielle LaRock?

  But for a while, you know, for years, we edited our own, if you couldn't tell.

• 1:29:02Cassandra Yahnian?

  If you can't tell, which you probably can.

• 1:29:06Danielle LaRock?

  Would never know.

• 1:29:09Danielle LaRock?

  We, we would switch off editing and things like that. So unfortunately, I did have to listen back to, which is so funny because listening back or reflecting back, we never edited really anything for content wise. You know, we would edit, try and make the audio maybe sound a little better because.

• 1:29:31Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, we kind of just left everything in.

• 1:29:33Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah, and we still kind of do, you know, when we talk to other people in the biz, you know, now that we're in the biz and just kind of getting a lay of the land of how other shows and things operate. When we hear the, the, the level of production that they have going into everything, we're a little taken aback. Well, oh, you guys go through and make timestamp edits and we edit out the best to our ability, mispronunciations and stumbles. And if we clearly butcher something and we recognize it in the moment, but other than that, we've.

• 1:30:08Cassandra Yahnian?

  There's not like a, there's no like a formula of what stays in. It's just kind of like, we're here, we're telling a story. This is what you get. But thankfully for you guys and for us, we have some fabulous editors that make sure that our content sounds way better than when you first. Heard it, but if I could rerecord an episode, I would rerecord Night of the Grizzlies.

• 1:30:32Danielle LaRock?

  Really? Why?

• 1:30:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  Not because I want to change it or anything. I would want it to go exactly the same way. It's just, I would want to relive that experience again, I think, because when we recorded it originally, I don't think I understood the impact it would have on our audience. And I would love to just like redo it again, just so I could relive that story, knowing how much it was going to impact everybody. But not that I want to change it. I don't want to rerecord it because I don't like it or anything like that. It's just kind of like when you read a book for the first time and you're like, ah, I wish I could reread that for the first time again. That's kind of how I feel about Night of the Grizzlies.

• 1:31:14Danielle LaRock?

  See, I think that if I was on your end of that, because obviously you were behind those two episodes. I don't know if I would want to do that, knowing, having that knowledge, because then I feel like I would feel so much pressure. Because that is one of the most popular episodes that we've ever done. And to know the weight of that.

• 1:31:34Cassandra Yahnian?

  I know.

• 1:31:34Danielle LaRock?

  I would freak myself out. You, oh, my guns blazing. You're like, yeah, here, this is what happened.

• 1:31:40Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah. Episode like, what was it?

• 1:31:42Danielle LaRock?

  Seventeen and eighteen.

• 1:31:46Cassandra Yahnian?

  To this day, whenever we're like, which episode traumatized you the most? Night of the Grizzlies.

• 1:31:50Danielle LaRock?

  Night of the Grizzlies. I actually put it on, um, on one of the platforms that you can listen to our podcast on, has a feature that it's on Spotify. There's a feature that, uh, if you go to our page and you go to about, there's our about us. And then there's a section that says, uh, episodes to start or where to start. For somebody that's just coming across your show. And I put Night of the Grizzlies on there.

• 1:32:14Cassandra Yahnian?

  Oh, cool. I didn't even know that was a feature on Spotify.

• 1:32:17Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. So, um, yeah, it's, it's highlighted and I'm glad you told it as is. And it is what it is because it's genuine and it's also early days type of style. Not that I think we've changed much, but people do write in and say. Yeah, people do write in and say, you know, like, I've loved to watch, you know, you guys grow and evolve in the show. And I think we have grown and evolved, but at the same time, I think we've stayed really true to how we started and haven't really changed up much when it comes to the delivery and what we like to cover. And I love that.

• 1:32:57Cassandra Yahnian?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:32:58Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:59Cassandra Yahnian?

  Cool. Well, I think that this is a fun way to end. And Outsiders, we liked answering your question. And thank you for answering the call so short notice because I asked at the beginning of this episode and you guys literally blew us up. So we will do this more on episodes. We'll answer your questions at the end because it's fun. But yeah, we'll get, I guess we'll see you all next week then.

• 1:33:19Danielle LaRock?

  Yeah. In the meantime, enjoy the view.

• 1:33:20Cassandra Yahnian?

  But we're back.

• 1:33:21Danielle LaRock?

  Bye, everyone.

• 1:33:22Cassandra Yahnian?

  Bye.

• 1:33:23Danielle LaRock?

  Thank you for joining us again this week. If you love National Park After Dark and want to hear exclusive bonus stories, join us on Patreon or Apple subscriptions. Patreon subscribers have access to our National Park After Dark Book Club, live streams, Discord, and much more. If you prefer to watch our episodes, video episodes are now available on YouTube. If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite listening platform. And to follow along with all our adventures, you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, and X at National Park After Dark.

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