Brené Brown's Guide to HEALING & Finding True Belonging

My guest on this special rewind episode of The School of Greatness has carved out a very prominent place for herself in the world of emotional well-being. Who is Dr. Brené Brown? Dr. Brené Brown studies shame. Often, when she’s on a plane and isn’t in the mood for talking, this one-liner will easily shut down an unwanted conversation (or even a wanted one). Typically, we don’t like to talk about shame or anything that can make us feel vulnerable. But Dr. Brown isn’t afraid to talk about shame, vulnerability, and loneliness, because sadly, it is at the heart of humanity today. These are feelings that we all feel at some point in our lives. We don’t like to talk about vulnerability, mostly because it makes us feel “weak” or “powerless.” We feel like if we admit our fragility, we will be broken in two by the opinions of others and even ourselves. The reluctance to discuss shame has attached a stigma to a very common emotion that we all experience. We discuss that, and more on today’s episode. In this episode you will learn,What belonging truly means. What makes people complex. What every parent needs to know about when their kids grow up. Why parents are so defensive about their parenting style. How to support men in being willing to discuss vulnerable topics. For more information go to www.lewishowes.com/1518For more Greatness text PODCAST to +1 (614) 350-3960More SOG episodes on Radical Self Love & Acceptance:Jason Derulo – https://link.chtbl.com/1460-podKaramo Brown – https://link.chtbl.com/1457-podPokimane – https://link.chtbl.com/1443-pod Get more from Lewis! Get my New York Times Bestselling book, Make Money Easy! Get The Greatness Mindset audiobook on SpotifyText Lewis AIYouTubeInstagramWebsiteTiktokFacebookX

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Lewis Howes?

  My friend, I am such a big believer that your mindset is everything. It can really dictate if your life has meaning, has value, and you feel fulfilled, or if you feel exhausted, drained, and like you're never going to be enough. Our brand new book, The Greatness Mindset, just hit the New York Times Bestseller back-to-back weeks. And I'm so excited to hear from so many of you who've bought the book, who've read it, and finished it already, and are getting incredible results from the lessons in the book. If you haven't got a copy yet, you'll learn how to build a plan for greatness through powerful exercises and toolkits designed to propel your life forward. This is the book I wish I had when I was 20, struggling, trying to figure out life, 10 years ago, at 30, trying to figure out transitions in my life, and the book I'm

• 0:46Lewis Howes?

  glad I have today for myself. Make sure to get a copy at lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get your copy today. Again, lewishouse.com/2023mindset to get a copy today. Also, the book is on Audible now, so you can get it on audiobook as well. And don't forget to follow the show so you never miss an episode.

• 1:10Brené Brown?

  I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in, because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be, what do I need to say, what do I need to wear, how do I need to act, and changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are.

• 1:30Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to the School of Greatness. My name is Lewis Howes, a former pro athlete turned lifestyle entrepreneur. And each week, we bring you an inspiring person or message to help you discover how to unlock your inner greatness. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let the class begin.

• 1:53Lewis Howes?

  Welcome to today's special episode. Over the last 1,300 plus episodes, there have been so many impactful interviews that I've been lucky enough to have. And I always like to reflect on some of the most powerful. And this episode was one that resonated with most of you guys in the past. And I'm excited for the value it's going to bring you today as well. So I hope you enjoy today's episode.

• 2:16Lewis Howes?

  I'm very excited about this because you have a new book out called, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys get this book right now. It's going to change the game. And I got a chance to go through it. Love everything that you write about in here. And I feel very connected to you.

• 2:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 2:33Lewis Howes?

  Because I felt very alone for almost my entire life. I felt like I didn't belong anywhere. I was the youngest of four. I was always picked on, bullied. I was sexually abused when I was a kid by a man that I didn't know. I was always picked last on sports teams. And I know you weren't even picked for, I think it was the step team or some type of.

• 2:54Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, the drill team.

• 2:55Lewis Howes?

  The drill team. I remember how that made, that kind of transformed your life.

• 2:59Brené Brown?

  It was defining.

• 3:00Lewis Howes?

  Defining, right? These moments that we go through as kids can really define and shape us. And so I'm just, I feel connected to you in that sense that I felt very alone and didn't know who I was for a very long time. And still I'm trying to learn who I am.

• 3:13Brené Brown?

  Yeah, me too.

• 3:14Lewis Howes?

  You are?

• 3:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 3:15Lewis Howes?

  But you seem like you have it all figured out.

• 3:17Brené Brown?

  Oh, God, no, I don't. No, I don't have, I mean, first of all, I think the one thing I've learned in my research above all else is that in the absence of love and belonging, there's always suffering. So when I hear about your experiences growing up, that's suffering. You know, that's real suffering. And for me, not making the drill team when I was, I think it was in eighth grade. By itself is not a lot, but how my family responded to it. It was like when things changed for me and I didn't feel like I belonged to my family anymore. So, I think that, I still am trying to figure it out. I don't know, I don't know that I've interviewed anyone, even spiritual leaders,

• 4:01Brené Brown?

  who have the belonging thing completely nailed, because I don't think it is what we think it is. You know, I don't think that it's having a big posse of friends, or having a crew, or rolling with a bunch of people. I think I'm still trying to figure it out, because I still feel lonely and alone, and on the outside of things, on a really regular basis.

• 4:23Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 4:24Brené Brown?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:24Lewis Howes?

  I mean, you're going on a book tour with thousands of people.

• 4:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 4:27Lewis Howes?

  Fifteen-city tour.

• 4:28Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 4:28Lewis Howes?

  Millions of fans around the world, and you still feel alone.

• 4:31Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I can feel really lonely.

• 4:32Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 4:33Brené Brown?

  And it's really hard, because, you know, you talk about that book tour. I'm severely introverted.

• 4:38Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 4:38Brené Brown?

  Super private. And so, I love that connection between me and an audience, but it can also be hard on me. And also, I'm talking about things that no one... It's weird to me that people sign up to talk about them, but they're hard topics sometimes, and we laugh, and we have fun, and we'll sing. But, um, I think what I've learned in doing the research on belonging, is that belonging is being a part of something bigger than yourself, but it's also the courage to stand alone, and to belong to yourself, above all else. And so, I think I spend a lot of time belonging to myself, and sometimes that makes other people uncomfortable.

• 5:23Brené Brown?

  And so, I think that's hard. I think I do feel, I'm always looking for, I don't know about you, but I'm always looking for the roadmap. Like, I want to find the researcher, storyteller, Christian, lover of all people, fighter of the resistance. I want to find the blueprint of who's ahead of me, believing what I believe in, and doing it really well.

• 5:45Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:47Brené Brown?

  But, there's not really a blueprint sometimes.

• 5:49Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out.

• 5:51Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Lewis Howes?

  We're all trying to figure it out.

• 5:52Brené Brown?

  I don't get to copy anybody, and so, it's hard.

• 5:57Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 5:57Brené Brown?

  It's still hard. But, here's a thing that has changed everything, for me. I belong to me. So, even when I feel alone, and I wonder like, who's my crew, and who are my people?

• 6:12Brené Brown?

  I belong to me, for sure. For the first time in my life, maybe.

• 6:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, and I think we lose ourselves sometimes by trying to belong in groups that we don't fit in.

• 6:20Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 6:20Lewis Howes?

  You know, I remember being in, you know, the youngest on these sports teams growing up. I was playing on the junior varsity as a freshman or the varsity or whatever. So I was the youngest, and I remember just wanting to fit in, just like you did on the, uh, that team. I wanted to fit in, I wanted to feel like they liked me, like I mattered.

• 6:36Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 6:37Lewis Howes?

  Like I was a cool kid or whatever. And when they would do things that I didn't really agree with, or they would bully other kids or make fun of people, it's like I didn't want to not say anything, you know, I didn't want to stand against them because I wanted to belong.

• 6:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Lewis Howes?

  So if I did stand up against them, then that means I was alone. And that was my biggest fear, was being alone.

• 6:54Brené Brown?

  No, yeah, because that's what, that's what teams and groups deliver. They deliver this thing that you're not alone.

• 7:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Brené Brown?

  The problem is, there's just, I was so shocked to learn in the research that the opposite of belonging is fitting in. Because fitting in is assessing a group of people and thinking, who do I need to be? What do I need to say? What do I need to wear? How do I need to act? And changing who you are. And true belonging never asks us to change who we are. It demands that we be who we are. Because if we, if we, if we fit in, because how we've changed ourselves, that's not belonging. That's not belonging, because you betrayed yourself for other people. And that's not sustainable.

• 7:41Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you start to lose yourself.

• 7:42Brené Brown?

  You start to lose yourself, exactly what you said. And so, I think it's hard, you have to show up as who you are.

• 7:48Lewis Howes?

  How do we find out who we are?

• 7:50Brené Brown?

  That's the life's work, right? That's friggin' hard.

• 7:55Lewis Howes?

  Do you know who you are?

• 7:56Brené Brown?

  Uh, yeah, I do.

• 7:57Lewis Howes?

  Who are you?

• 8:00Brené Brown?

  Uh, in what way?

• 8:02Lewis Howes?

  If, if someone just said, "Who are you, Brene?", what would you say?

• 8:07Brené Brown?

  Brene Brown.

• 8:10Brené Brown?

  Mom, partner, researcher, storyteller, Texan. I don't know, I ask them how much time they have. Because, you know, the thing is that we want to, when we ask people who they are and we want to know, we'd like those really easy files to put them in.

• 8:24Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, of course.

• 8:25Brené Brown?

  But I'm a complicated person.

• 8:27Lewis Howes?

  Are you?

• 8:27Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and so I think, I know who I am.

• 8:30Lewis Howes?

  What makes you complicated?

• 8:32Brené Brown?

  I don't know if I'm complicated, but I'm complex.

• 8:35Lewis Howes?

  You're interesting.

• 8:37Brené Brown?

  I hope so.

• 8:39Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 8:39Brené Brown?

  Some days, yeah, some days, no.

• 8:40Lewis Howes?

  Very interesting.

• 8:41Brené Brown?

  You know, I think what makes me complex is, I think what makes everyone complex is the paradoxical nature of people. So, you know, like, I speak in public, I love doing that, but I'm incredibly introverted.

• 8:55Brené Brown?

  I'm kind of a traditionalist around things. My kids say, "Yes, ma'am, no, ma'am." But I also raise them to challenge authority every time they get the opportunity to do that. But to be really polite when they're doing it.

• 9:07Lewis Howes?

  Sure, sure.

• 9:07Brené Brown?

  Yeah, so, I think I'm, um, I'm unapologetically earnest. Like, I believe in the goodness of people, but I believe it's hard work to stay out of fear and stay good.

• 9:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:22Brené Brown?

  And so, I think, I understand people, I think of a lot of empathy, but I'm also not afraid of discomfort.

• 9:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Brené Brown?

  So I think there's just a lot of push and pull.

• 9:32Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 9:33Brené Brown?

  And I think that's true of all of us. I do not like to be defined.

• 9:37Lewis Howes?

  I think that's some-

• 9:37Brené Brown?

  Do you?

• 9:38Lewis Howes?

  I, I was gonna say, I feel like my entire life, I didn't want to be defined as well. They were like, "You're gonna be this jock in college, you're gonna be like this alcoholic, you're gonna be in the frats."

• 9:47Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 9:48Lewis Howes?

  All my siblings said this to me, and I was like, "No, I'm not." I made a bet with each one of my siblings, a hundred dollars each, that I want to have one sip of alcohol in college. Because I was like, "I want to go against everything you think I'm gonna be."

• 9:58Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 9:59Lewis Howes?

  I joined the school musical, because they were like, "You're just gonna do sports." I sang, I played guitar, I salsa danced, I was like, "I'm gonna do everything different than what people would expect of a tall, white man," right?

• 10:10Brené Brown?

  That's awesome.

• 10:10Lewis Howes?

  I was like, "I want to be different."

• 10:11Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 10:12Lewis Howes?

  And I think in that process, I was like, trying to discover who I really was, what I liked, my dreams, what, you know, what was fun for me.

• 10:19Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Lewis Howes?

  Uh, as opposed to just trying to fit the box and the mold of everyone else. Because you can lose yourself in that fitting in, I think.

• 10:25Brené Brown?

  You can lose yourself in the fitting in, and you can lose yourself in the rebuttal to the fitting in.

• 10:29Lewis Howes?

  It's true. Trying to go against it, all true, yeah.

• 10:32Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it's really hard, I mean, it's this thing that-

• 10:36Brené Brown?

  It's a quote that is, Braving the Wilderness is all about this, starts with this quote from Maya Angelou, that we're never free until we belong nowhere, we belong everywhere, which is nowhere, which is no place at all, which I thought was a terrible quote for many years. And I was like, why are you saying that, Dr. Angelou? You're pissing me off. But then I realized, really, and she says, the cost is high, but the reward is great. And I think, I think that's the thing, that I feel like I belong everywhere I go, no matter where it is or who I'm with, as long as I never betray myself.

• 11:17Brené Brown?

  And the minute I become who you want me to be, in order to fit in and make sure people like me, is the moment I no longer belong anywhere. And that is hard.

• 11:30Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 11:31Brené Brown?

  I mean, that's a hard practice. That's an everyday practice.

• 11:34Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 11:35Brené Brown?

  Yeah, because I can, I can be whoever you want me to be like that.

• 11:38Lewis Howes?

  You're like a chameleon, you said.

• 11:39Brené Brown?

  Oh, I can be totally like a chameleon. Like, sometimes, it's really funny, because like, I always, because I travel so much, I have all these miles, I always sit in business class, and I'm normally the only woman in business class. Every now and then, there's one other, maybe, which is a conversation we should be having, too.

• 11:54Lewis Howes?

  Sure.

• 11:55Brené Brown?

  But it doesn't matter what dude sits next to me. Like, I can talk about whatever that person, like, and it's so funny, because we'll talk about sports usually first, or football, or we'll talk about politics, and he'll say, what do you do? And I'll say, I study vulnerability and shame. Oh, well, huh, well, I'm gonna play some Angry Birds. You know, and right that moment, like, I could just, and it's not that I know everything about everything, it's just...

• 12:23Lewis Howes?

  So you're saying, most men don't want to chime in and learn more about that?

• 12:27Brené Brown?

  No, that's usually, if I want to go to sleep, I'm like, I'm a shame researcher. What do you do? You're like, okay.

• 12:33Lewis Howes?

  Right, right.

• 12:34Brené Brown?

  But I think I can be anything, like...

• 12:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, you're adaptable.

• 12:37Brené Brown?

  I'm adaptable, and adaptable is great, because anyone that comes to my home, or here to work, I can make you feel comfortable.

• 12:46Lewis Howes?

  Of course.

• 12:47Brené Brown?

  But then, if I get so adaptable, that my goal, my intention of adapting, is to make sure you like me, then that's when I betray myself.

• 12:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. What would you say is the time in your life you've been the most alone?

• 12:58Brené Brown?

  High school.

• 12:59Lewis Howes?

  The whole journey?

• 13:01Brené Brown?

  Yeah, it just sucked.

• 13:02Lewis Howes?

  It does suck.

• 13:03Brené Brown?

  And you know, my daughter just graduated from high school. And she had this amazing experience. You know, just incredible experience. And it was so healing to watch.

• 13:15Lewis Howes?

  Oh, that's nice.

• 13:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I think it happened because she, I think she had the confidence to put herself out there and, you know, student council president, you know, that kind. I think because we have a rule at our house that no matter what, you belong here. No matter how goofy, awkward, afraid, wrong, it doesn't matter. You belong here. And so I think when we give our kids a platform like that at home, it gives them the courage to take risks outside of home. Does that make sense?

• 13:50Lewis Howes?

  Because they feel safe coming back. No matter what happens, they always have a place to come home to.

• 13:53Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I grew up in a house where it was very chaotic. I'm the oldest of four. And fitting in and being cool was the most important thing. So I think without that pressure, I probably would have never tried out for that drill team. But in my world growing up, you only did two things. You were a cheerleader or you were on the drill team. And preferably you married a running back or a quarterback. I mean, that was the way it went. And so for me, I probably would have been like president of the French club. You know, I would have been in debate or those kind of things.

• 14:25Lewis Howes?

  The newspaper.

• 14:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah, oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, photographer of the year book.

• 14:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:30Brené Brown?

  But those things did not have a lot of value.

• 14:32Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 14:32Brené Brown?

  Not, no.

• 14:33Lewis Howes?

  Your parents didn't instill that as something credible or worthwhile?

• 14:36Brené Brown?

  No, it's just I, cool was the number one value at home. Cool, lots of friends, popular.

• 14:45Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 14:45Brené Brown?

  And that just wasn't my, I wasn't that thing. You know, I was, yeah, I wasn't. And so what I did is I just started drinking, smoking weed, hanging out with, you know. I found, I found a place to be, you know, cool. And, yeah, that just goes bad fast.

• 15:01Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 15:02Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 15:02Lewis Howes?

  Have you ever had a conversation with your parents about this?

• 15:04Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, we've talked about all of it.

• 15:05Lewis Howes?

  You have?

• 15:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 15:06Lewis Howes?

  You've let it go, you've processed it all?

• 15:08Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah, because they, you know, they read my books as I write them. And they're, you know, they're like. This is exactly what every parent wants, a child who grows up to be a shame researcher. But, no, they just, that's the miracle of my parents. Like, my parents, they've taught me the best thing about parenting that anyone, I think, could ever know, which is, it doesn't end when your kids leave. Like, they keep growing and exploring and, you know, and however hard it was for me not being able to be, you know, we did not do vulnerability growing up.

• 15:40Lewis Howes?

  Really?

• 15:40Brené Brown?

  No, no, no, no. Like, yeah, like, our family motto was literally lock and load. Like, get ready, you know, family trips, you're in the car for five hours, it's all six of us, you really have to go to the bathroom, but the rest stop is on the other side of the highway, we're not pulling over, like, suck it up, hold it. Like, we were tough. We were tough. Like, we'd fall down and get hurt, you know, my dad would say, like, "I got bigger scratches than that on my eyeball." You know, like, you know, yeah, like, we were tough. And so, and we were, and we were taught to outrun vulnerability.

• 16:13Brené Brown?

  We were taught to suck it up, soldier on, get her done.

• 16:17Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 16:17Brené Brown?

  And so, however hard that was for me growing up, imagine what it was like for my parents in the 50s. You know, my dad, who was the youngest of six, his dad died when he was 16, you know.

• 16:30Lewis Howes?

  Was he able to process that, or no?

• 16:32Brené Brown?

  No, he just did the next thing you do. Played football, played college ball.

• 16:39Brené Brown?

  My mom, who's my grandmother, who I named my daughter after, was an alcoholic. And she was drunk every other day of my mom's life. But she was the most amazing person in the world, but everyone knew she was an alcoholic, so my mom wasn't allowed to have friends at our, at her house growing up, because it was the 50s and she was divorced. You know, and so my mom became the head of the drill team and the, you know, the valedictorian. And, and so however hard it was for me growing up, having to try to outrun vulnerability, it was a million times harder on my parents. And they didn't, they did what they knew how to do. And they loved us as much as they could love us with the tools they had. And so, I don't have...

• 17:22Brené Brown?

  I think the hard part comes from people that I've interviewed my whole life, where the parents don't grow and change. And they see anything a child trying to do differently as criticism of what they did. As opposed to my parents, who lean in and say, "Tell me more about that." I have a funny story. You hear a funny story about my dad? It's great. So, we do a lot of choice theory with my daughter and my son. And so, my husband's a pediatrician. So, like, we know a lot about child development from our, just from school. And so, when Ellen was little, we used to do this thing where we would say, you know, "You have two choices. Like, Louis, you have two choices. You can either hand me the water, I'm gonna have to take it from you. What is your choice? So that if you decide not to hand it to me, and I have to take it, it's not my fault. That was your choice, right."

• 18:07Brené Brown?

  And so, one night, I was talking to Ellen, and we were at my dad's house in San Antonio. And I was like, "Ellie, you need to turn off Dora the Explorer. It's time to go to bed." And she's like, "Mm-mm." And I said, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can get up and turn off the TV, or I'm gonna get up and turn it off for you. And if I have to get up and, you know, turn off the TV, you're gonna lose privileges to watch it tomorrow."

• 18:27Lewis Howes?

  And that's your choice.

• 18:28Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's your choice. So, you know, and I would hate that for you, but that will be your choice. And my dad was sitting in the recliner next to me, and he's like, "Ah, sis, what are you raising, a hostage negotiator?" I was like, "Dad?" And he's like, "Seriously, Renee?" We had four of y'all. We didn't have time for that. So, the next day, I come home. I'm visiting friends in San Antonio, and he's watching Ellen. And he's in the driveway. It's like 110 degrees in San Antonio. And he's sweating. He's like, "Ellen, you have two choices. You can either put the bicycle up, or I'm gonna have to put it up for you. And the second one's a dumbass choice." So, I was like, "Wow, you're so close."

• 19:03Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 19:04Brené Brown?

  You're getting there. But...

• 19:05Lewis Howes?

  You're getting there.

• 19:05Brené Brown?

  My parents are amazing in that way, that like, they're learning and changing. So, I think it's harder when parents say, "I'm done. What you got was what you got. No apologies, no change, no remorse. Take it or leave it. And if you do it differently with your own kids, you're a sucker."

• 19:23Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 19:24Brené Brown?

  And I think we see that a lot.

• 19:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do. I mean, what should parents be learning about how they can grow? I mean, how can they start to be aware? Because I think it starts with being aware.

• 19:35Brené Brown?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 19:35Lewis Howes?

  Of what they know and what they don't know, and being receptive to learning something different, which is really hard to do, I think, once you've had these habits for so long. So that's the first thing. And I want to dive into the lack of vulnerability with what's happening in Charlottesville right now as well. Because I know you did something on that this morning. So I guess, how can parents listen to this and be aware and be willing to move forward in a different way of learning something new when they're so stuck in their ways, potentially, that it's worked for them to this point to get to where they're at?

• 20:07Brené Brown?

  You know, I think, I believe, this with my whole heart, I believe that 99.9% of parents are truly waking up every day and doing the very best they can with what they have.

• 20:19Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Brené Brown?

  I don't think there are a lot of parents who wake up and maliciously try to screw up their kids or hurt their kids or belittle or shame their kids. I think we're doing the best we can with what we have. And so I think to let go of the idea that if I have done something that I could have done better or that I could learn from, that I have to just come down. People defend their parenting like they're defending their lives because it's such a shame minefield.

• 20:44Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 20:45Brené Brown?

  You know, I mean, a great example is the work you're doing around men and vulnerability. I cannot tell you the number of fathers and the hundreds, if not thousands, of fathers I've interviewed that said, "I shamed my son every time he was vulnerable."

• 20:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 21:01Brené Brown?

  "I put him down. I made fun of them. I hit him." "Every time he was vulnerable." And now I look back and I know it's because that's the way I was raised or I was afraid he'd be soft and get hurt at school or, you know, whatever the thing is. And so I think for parents, it's about understanding, giving yourself permission.

• 21:22Brené Brown?

  To not have been, I'm not perfect, like, you know, like, I've never not been a researcher and a parent. My husband's a pediatrician. Our kids will be in therapy.

• 21:28Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 21:29Brené Brown?

  And the reason why I think that'll be so successful is, there's only two kind of kids you raise. Kids who will ask for help when they need it, are kids who won't. And that's as good as it gets, is to raise a kid who'll ask for help.

• 21:40Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I never asked for help.

• 21:42Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 21:43Lewis Howes?

  I was always suffering inside.

• 21:44Brené Brown?

  Yeah, right.

• 21:45Lewis Howes?

  And I always felt shameful, guilty, and I just, my way of asking was being angry, resentful, mad, hitting people in sports.

• 21:52Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 21:53Lewis Howes?

  Or outside of sports, because that's all I knew.

• 21:54Brené Brown?

  I'll tell you a story about a guy that I interviewed, very, one of the first men I interviewed when I went from interviewing all women to men, was a guy who said, I said, "What a shame for you." And he used the P-U-S-S-Y word, which is like, just synonymous with shame in male culture, right?

• 22:12Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:13Brené Brown?

  And he said, "I'll never forget the day that changed my life." He said, "I was at football practice, I was a freshman in high school." And he said, the coach yelled, "Get on the line." And I didn't want to get on the line, the line of scrimmage.

• 22:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Brené Brown?

  In case people don't know, I know you know, but, he asked me to make sure I walked through all the sports metaphors with him.

• 22:33Lewis Howes?

  Exactly.

• 22:34Brené Brown?

  And he said, "I was afraid to get on the line, because I know, you know, it's where people crash into each other. And so, I must have had fear on my face, because my coach looked at me and said, 'Don't be a P-U-S-S-Y, get on the line.'" And he said, "That's the day that I learned that the way you deal with that is you change that fear into rage." And he said, "And I just plowed over the guy across from me." And then he said, "Then I spent the next 20 years plowing over my wife, my children, my colleagues, the people who worked for me."

• 23:10Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 23:11Brené Brown?

  He said, "That's what I did with my fear."

• 23:13Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. I mean, I can definitely relate.

• 23:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:16Lewis Howes?

  I mean... I remember being picked last on a, on a team once when it was a coed sport. We were playing dodgeball on the playground. I think it was third or fourth grade. And there's two captains, two guys, and they were picking one at a time, right?

• 23:29Brené Brown?

  Oh god, brutal.

• 23:30Lewis Howes?

  They pick all the guys.

• 23:31Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Lewis Howes?

  And I'm like, okay, I'm gonna be the last guy chosen.

• 23:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Lewis Howes?

  But then they go and pick all the girls, and then, then I'm gonna pick my name. I'm just by default the last pickers team. And so as a, as a, you know, a boy trying to fit in in third or fourth grade, it was devastating. And I told myself in that moment, I was like, never again will I be picked last at any sport.

• 23:53Brené Brown?

  I'll do whatever it takes.

• 23:54Lewis Howes?

  I am going to be a machine. I'm gonna train for six hours a night. I'm going to, you know, take no prisoners mentality and just... I mean, I dominated on that dodgeball game that day. I was just like throwing the ball, like just diving everywhere. I was like, never again.

• 24:08Brené Brown?

  Did you ever get picked last again?

• 24:09Lewis Howes?

  Never got picked last again.

• 24:10Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 24:11Lewis Howes?

  But, and it helped me achieve, you know, was all-state in multiple sports, was all-American in two sports. I broke world records. I played professional football. I play on the USA handball team now. And it guided me towards achieving these things, but it left me feeling very unfulfilled every time I'd achieve them. Or anytime we lose, it was like an attack on my life. Every loss we ever had in a sport, it was like my life was at stake. And I felt like I was worthless, because if I didn't win.

• 24:40Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 24:41Lewis Howes?

  That meant no one was gonna accept me, or I wasn't good enough, or I was gonna be picked last or something. So I would take it so personally when I wouldn't win. And then I would take it out on my family, my girlfriends, my friends, everything. And I didn't know how to communicate, and I'm still learning, you know, I'm still imperfect every day. But it's like, I wasn't even aware. There was never information about how to connect or how to communicate and feel like it was okay or you're allowed to. Because anytime you try to talk about any vulnerabilities as a guy, growing up for me, it was like you're P-U-S-S-Y.

• 25:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 25:12Lewis Howes?

  And don't be a little girl, or don't be a V-I-T-C-H, you know, all these things. And so it's very, I think it's very hard for me, and especially for a lot of men who grew up, to stand alone and feel like they belong in an isolated world. If they're not going to join a group that's going to make fun of them or put other people down. So how do we stand alone when we're not introverted, or we want to be around other people? How do we? How can men communicate better or feel like it's okay to be vulnerable?

• 25:39Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 25:40Lewis Howes?

  We were talking before about how, you know, most men that I know, played sports with, would never watch The Power of Vulnerability TED Talk, or they would never read, you know, books from you or Oprah that I'm aware of, because they would talk bad about, you know, female leaders trying to talk about vulnerability.

• 25:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Lewis Howes?

  You know, they would say, "That's soft, that's weak."

• 25:59Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 25:59Lewis Howes?

  "I don't watch that stuff, I don't read that stuff." And really, that's the stuff we need the most, in my opinion.

• 26:04Brené Brown?

  And I think it's changing. I think I told you earlier that I think 50% of the readers of Daring Greatly are men, and the vast majority of leaders who bring me into organizations are men. And I'll tell you, I'll tell you why.

• 26:15Lewis Howes?

  Wise men.

• 26:16Brené Brown?

  I can, huh, I hope, I can flip it for you on a dime.

• 26:20Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 26:22Brené Brown?

  So it used to take me, when men would, when men would say, this is how the call would go, "Hey, we'd love for you to come in and work with our leadership team. We saw your TED Talk, we thought it was great, are you available?" And I'd say, "Sure, what do you want me to talk about?" And they'd say, "Anything but vulnerability and shame." And I would say...

• 26:40Lewis Howes?

  Why?

• 26:41Brené Brown?

  "So what do you want me to talk about?" If I don't talk about vulnerability. And they'd say, "Courage." And then I would say, "Okay." Then I would try to spend like a half an hour, explaining the relationship between vulnerability and courage.

• 26:50Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 26:51Brené Brown?

  Because all men want to be brave.

• 26:52Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability courage?

• 26:54Brené Brown?

  Vulnerability is courage.

• 26:55Lewis Howes?

  Isn't vulnerability power?

• 26:56Brené Brown?

  Yes, I have to ask one question to flip the whole thing, it's this. Vulnerability is defined as uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. Can you name one act of courage that you've ever been involved in, or that you've ever even witnessed, that did not involve uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure? And it's a loaded question, because I know the answer's no, because I've asked it thousands and thousands. I've, I've stood in front of Navy SEALs and Special Forces Military Personnel and said, "Give me an example, I want you to try hard to give me an example of courage that didn't require vulnerability." And in 10 years, I've never had a single person be able to come up. I've even had two guys come up to me who were in the military that said,

• 27:41Brené Brown?

  "We're going to think about it and get with you."

• 27:43Lewis Howes?

  They never got back to you.

• 27:44Brené Brown?

  "Oh my God," I said, "Do it, I would love it. Give me an example of courage, even on the field."

• 27:52Brené Brown?

  That doesn't involve vulnerability. Like if you, if it, if you think you're being brave and it doesn't involve risk or uncertainty, you're not being that brave.

• 28:01Lewis Howes?

  It's too safe.

• 28:02Brené Brown?

  Yeah, if you know how it's gonna turn out, it's not courage. And so in that moment, people go, "Shit." But I wanna be brave and I don't wanna be vulnerable. And I'm like, therein lies the great dilemma of our time. Yeah, no one wants to be uncomfortable. No one wants to be vulnerable and everyone wants to be brave. And it just doesn't work like that.

• 28:25Lewis Howes?

  Right, and anytime we try something new, we've gotta, we've gotta be uncomfortable.

• 28:29Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerable.

• 28:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, it's vulnerable.

• 28:30Brené Brown?

  I mean, when I ask people, "What is vulnerability?", people would say, "Initiating sex with my wife." Sending my child out the door who thinks he's going to make the first chair in orchestra. And knowing he's probably not gonna make the orchestra at all. Getting fired. Starting my own business. Saying "I love you first" in a relationship. Trying to get pregnant after my first miscarriage. I mean, like, vulnerability is, it's uncertainty. It's not knowing, but doing it anyway, because it's the brave thing to do. And so, the problem is, I think, that the greatest shame trigger for men is do not be perceived as weak.

• 29:13Brené Brown?

  And in our culture, we believe that vulnerability is weakness. So you don't have to skip too many steps before you go, "Hey, it's shaming to be vulnerable." And so, men do two things in the face of shame. Pissed off or shut down.

• 29:31Lewis Howes?

  Put on a mask.

• 29:32Brené Brown?

  Put on a mask. And so, what we're learning and what people are starting to see very quickly is you cannot be a courageous leader if you're not vulnerable. If you're not willing to have hard, uncomfortable conversations. Give hard feedback, receive hard feedback. Excavate issues like Charlottesville that no one wants to talk about. Like discomfort is the great enemy of courage. Like my motto is, we say it here all the time, "Choose courage over comfort." Cause you can't have both. And if you think you're being brave and you're super comfortable, you're not being that brave.

• 30:11Lewis Howes?

  Is there an area in your life right now where you don't feel your courage is enough?

• 30:16Lewis Howes?

  Or something you've been wanting to say to people that you haven't said fully or holding back on?

• 30:19Brené Brown?

  I think the Charlottesville Facebook Live today was hard.

• 30:23Lewis Howes?

  Was it?

• 30:24Brené Brown?

  Yeah, oh, yes. I was, my voice was shaking. I was shaking. In fact, we got here today and we knew we were gonna film us together, but we were gonna film some other stuff first. I said, I just need to do the Facebook Live because I don't want to lose my courage. And I think that's hard because when you're, when you talk about race and privilege and power, first of all, you're, I'm gonna get like, you know, death threats and people are gonna say, you know, all that stuff.

• 30:49Lewis Howes?

  You're wrong either way.

• 30:50Brené Brown?

  You're wrong either way, right. But the, the ability that I have to opt out of speaking out about it because it doesn't supposedly affect me is the definition of privilege. So I don't believe we can opt out of it. And I know that I'm white, upper-middle-class, really educated, Judeo-Christian, straight. I know that I've got blinders on, that no matter how hard I work, I will say something that is not right. And it will, people will come back and they will fire off against me around it. And it will hurt, but I'd rather take the chance in it hurting and learning. But it's always, it's scary to talk about this stuff today.

• 31:33Brené Brown?

  Do you think?

• 31:33Lewis Howes?

  It's really hard. And I try to come from a place of like, super authentic and loving of all humanity all the time. You know, I was raised by, you know, I had two great parents, but my mom and two older sisters were really the ones who came back to me after they would go on a date with a guy. They'd be like, Louis, never do this on a date. You know, always treat women this way. So I've always tried my best. You know, I'm imperfect in so many ways and constantly make mistakes with people.

• 31:57Brené Brown?

  Yeah, me too.

• 31:58Lewis Howes?

  But most of my team, I was telling you before, most of my team is women. I think 80% of my team is women. And

• 32:05Brené Brown?

  Clearly why you're successful.

• 32:06Lewis Howes?

  And they get paid more than the men on my team. Not because they're women, but because they produce better results. And I, my, my business is based on results. I've got people of different ethnicities. I've got people of different sexual orientations. And I had someone tell me last week, they said,

• 32:24Lewis Howes?

  You know, white male privilege is a thing and I think you need to incorporate more values into your organization so that you're not living from this white male privileged place. And I was thinking, I was hurt by this because I get it, I'm white, I can't, there's nothing I can do based on the way I was born. There's nothing I can do.

• 32:42Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 32:42Lewis Howes?

  I can't change the way how I was born, but I can choose to determine how I want to live and how I want to show up in the world. So I'm constantly trying to be mindful of speaking out more.

• 32:50Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Lewis Howes?

  Of, because I think that's what a lot of my friends are saying about Charlottesville. If white men aren't opening up and talking about this more, it's not going to come across to the people that are, I guess, marching with torches, which is, just blows my mind that this is happening still. It blows me away that this is happening. I don't even understand it. I'm like, I'm blown away.

• 33:14Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. And I'm just like, how can I be a better, more impactful in this place? And how can we get rid of this? How can we end it?

• 33:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 33:22Lewis Howes?

  Do you have the answer?

• 33:23Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Lewis Howes?

  I don't know. It just blows my mind.

• 33:26Brené Brown?

  No, and I think we need to do a lot more listening than, you know, and hear what, hear from the people who've been affected by this the longest. I think we do need to speak out. I think white silence around these issues is death. I mean, I just think it's, it's terrible. I don't think we can come in and save the day. I think we need to come in and with humility and curiosity and say, this is what I think and I want to learn and I want to, if I make mistakes, let me know and I'll try to make them better.

• 33:55Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Brené Brown?

  And I think we need to take responsibility. And I think it's easier sometimes for me in my life

• 34:06Brené Brown?

  to just keep asking questions, just keep reading, just keep, just keep talking about it. And when I am so uncomfortable that I don't want to do it anymore, just to keep doing it because to remember that my discomfort is, you know, that's my privilege.

• 34:23Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 34:23Brené Brown?

  And so I don't know that there's an answer other than discussions. And I'm not, I wasn't surprised. About Charlottesville, really? No.

• 34:32Lewis Howes?

  I just, really, it just blows my mind. Maybe I'm just ignorant to that.

• 34:35Brené Brown?

  I don't, I don't think it's about being ignorant to it. It doesn't, you know, I've studied shame for 15 years and fear. Like, that's what it looks like.

• 34:43Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. What do you think they're, these individuals margin like this are most shameful of in their own life? Why are they so?

• 34:50Brené Brown?

  I would never venture to guess. Um, I, I don't know, but I do think it's about powerlessness.

• 34:56Lewis Howes?

  They feel powerless.

• 34:56Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and I think that people go, oh my God, okay, so the white, you know, the white guy and the khakis and the, you know, fancy polo shirt feels powerless and, you know, cry me a river.

• 35:10Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 35:11Brené Brown?

  Um, I think we don't, we don't give a about that at our own peril. Um, not caring about it and not trying to understand it. I'm not taking it on my load, for sure. I mean, I'm not gonna add it to my back. I got other stuff to do. Um, but I am gonna try to understand it because I can't imagine a way through what needs to happen over the next decade that does not involve understanding pain. There's this incredible James Baldwin quote that says, "Now I understand why people hold on to their hate so stubbornly, because once they let it go, there's nothing but pain."

• 35:54Lewis Howes?

  Ooh.

• 35:55Brené Brown?

  Um, and I think we, we dismiss and don't care about that pain at our own peril. Um, because pain will make itself known. It, it will not be dismissed. It's not an affect or an emotion that dissipates when it's ignored.

• 36:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. Well, I think this is, this is fascinating, you're saying this, because I never wanted to feel the emotional pain. It was so hard to go through.

• 36:21Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 36:22Lewis Howes?

  I got a, a breakup with a girlfriend. Like, I didn't know how to deal with the emotional loss.

• 36:27Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Lewis Howes?

  Of any type of pain or suffering.

• 36:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 36:30Lewis Howes?

  As a man, and I remember being in the fetal position my freshman year in college for days, sobbing in my dorm room, just curled up in a ball, uh, because I, you know, a relationship ended and I was so sad to be alone and I didn't have this person in my life anymore. And I would take it out on the football field. I was like, I don't want to feel this type of emotional pain. So how can I inflict as much physical pain on myself and other people to get it out? And it's hard to switch that off and just be like this loving, vulnerable man after you're on the football field, like inflicting pain on other people because you're supposed to.

• 37:06Brené Brown?

  No, and I think whether we play football or not, we're much better at causing pain than we are feeling pain.

• 37:10Lewis Howes?

  You don't want to feel it.

• 37:11Brené Brown?

  No, you don't. And so we cause it and we hurt other people.

• 37:14Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, we do.

• 37:14Brené Brown?

  And so, and if you look at leadership, whether you're in an organization, leading a country, leading a family, as a parent, one of the cheapest, easiest ways to lead is to give people someone to hate and blame for your misery. And so we have to really watch that in our country right now. So if we, all you have to do when people are in uncertainty and fear is give them someone to blame and give them a reason to blame them. And then step back and watch everything just fall apart. And so I think that's happening right now in our country.

• 37:56Brené Brown?

  And so we have to push away the rhetoric. You know, we have to own our pain. And let me tell you, it's not like you tell that story about the football field and it's so prophetic because every crisis we're up against right now, almost without exception, is about our inability, our unwillingness to deal with pain. If you look at the opioid addiction right now, across, you know, somewhere, beginning with physicians, sent the message, there's no reason for you to hurt at all.

• 38:33Lewis Howes?

  Here's a pain reliever.

• 38:34Brené Brown?

  Here's a pain reliever, you know, and things are not going well in your life. Well, here's a way to discharge hate and pain that'll make you feel better.

• 38:43Lewis Howes?

  By drinking or by smoking or sex or whatever.

• 38:47Brené Brown?

  Medicated, addicted, in debt and obese Americans in history. Like our tolerance for discomfort is zero.

• 38:56Lewis Howes?

  Soft.

• 38:57Brené Brown?

  Yeah. Yeah. So here's the irony, soft.

• 39:01Lewis Howes?

  What we're taught in football, don't be soft.

• 39:03Brené Brown?

  Don't be soft. So it's actually our inability to be vulnerable that makes us weak.

• 39:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, I agree. One of the things that I talk about and try to express with as many people as possible is to actually put yourself through pain and discomfort every single day. I try to do this physically through working out to try to push myself farther than I want to, where I'm like emotionally want to cry.

• 39:25Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 39:26Lewis Howes?

  Because I just know by conditioning myself to feel pain every single day, that when a lot of stuff comes my way, I'm capable of taking it on and processing the emotions as opposed to being like, "I just need a drink. I need this. I need that."

• 39:39Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 39:40Lewis Howes?

  I've never been a drunk in my life, so I don't even know what that feels like. But it's hard, especially as for myself, I'll speak for myself as a man, it's hard growing up, learning how to deal with those type of emotions. It's really challenging. There's no class in school that says, "Okay, when you're feeling this way, Louis, here's how you're supposed to act."

• 39:58Brené Brown?

  It's vulnerability.

• 39:59Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, here's how you're supposed to act. Here's the step-by-step process. Like, there's no process that we're taught unless it's our parents or we seek it out.

• 40:07Brené Brown?

  And it's not modeled because I think parents fear kind of soft boys turning into soft men.

• 40:16Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:17Brené Brown?

  Who, you know, I remember interviewing this guy who was in his 70s and I said, "What is shame to you?" And he's like, "Shame is being the kid you can shove up against the lockers."

• 40:25Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:26Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 40:27Lewis Howes?

  Shame is being the kid that you shove up?

• 40:29Brené Brown?

  Yeah, being the kid that you can shove up against the lockers.

• 40:31Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 40:32Brené Brown?

  You know, and it's like, but really, we've got to shift it and we've got to shift it. I think it starts parenting, school. Athletics is huge.

• 40:42Lewis Howes?

  Huge.

• 40:43Brené Brown?

  I mean, it's a really, I mean, let me, let me, let me do this. Okay, let's do the sports thing.

• 40:49Lewis Howes?

  Do it.

• 40:50Brené Brown?

  Okay, ready? Okay. Two football teams. You're going to place a bet.

• 40:55Lewis Howes?

  Okay.

• 40:56Brené Brown?

  Both of them have hurt quarterbacks. Both of them are playing, well, both of them have hurt quarterbacks. This team over here recognizes its vulnerability and is going to put in a second-string quarterback. This team ignores its vulnerability and pretends like it doesn't exist. Who are you betting on?

• 41:14Lewis Howes?

  Hmm, depends on the injury.

• 41:17Brené Brown?

  Oh, Jesus. Football team.

• 41:18Lewis Howes?

  Hey, because I played hurt my whole life, you know.

• 41:21Brené Brown?

  Yeah, I would say that most of us would say you are more, you are less likely to win if you do not acknowledge your vulnerabilities as.

• 41:28Lewis Howes?

  Right, right, right.

• 41:29Brené Brown?

  So even if you play your quarterback,

• 41:31Lewis Howes?

  Right.

• 41:31Brené Brown?

  you've got to make sure your line is ready.

• 41:32Lewis Howes?

  Exactly, and you've got to switch the plays up.

• 41:34Brené Brown?

  Right, right.

• 41:34Lewis Howes?

  If his arm's hurt, you're going to pass it off.

• 41:36Brené Brown?

  You're going to pass off, right.

• 41:37Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly.

• 41:37Brené Brown?

  Yeah, give it more time in the hole, whatever you're going to do.

• 41:40Lewis Howes?

  The team that acknowledges their vulnerabilities.

• 41:41Brené Brown?

  Is going to be more successful.

• 41:42Lewis Howes?

  And is adaptable to change.

• 41:44Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 41:44Lewis Howes?

  Is going to be more successful.

• 41:45Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 41:45Lewis Howes?

  Yes.

• 41:46Brené Brown?

  Right, so why do we think as men to pretend like you're not vulnerable makes you the most vulnerable?

• 41:54Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Brené Brown?

  Makes you the most susceptible? I mean, we just have data, I mean, just like I could fill this whole room with data about you don't get to opt out. Let me ask you this. Do you know a guy in the world, you know, a lot of guys, right? Who can say, "I've existed this point in my life without being uncertain, at risk, or emotionally exposed?"

• 42:18Lewis Howes?

  No.

• 42:19Brené Brown?

  Right, you can't not do vulnerability.

• 42:21Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:21Brené Brown?

  But you can pretend like you don't. Then you're not making choices over the behaviors you engage in when you're vulnerable.

• 42:27Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 42:28Brené Brown?

  Then you don't know when you're vulnerable, and then you're acting nutty.

• 42:33Lewis Howes?

  And I think you pay major prices.

• 42:35Brené Brown?

  Oh, yeah.

• 42:36Lewis Howes?

  When you don't, when you aren't aware or when you're not acting like you're aware.

• 42:39Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Lewis Howes?

  You just act like everything's fine, or you don't need help, you don't need support, you don't need to address the situation, or

• 42:45Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 42:46Lewis Howes?

  grieve, or whatever it is.

• 42:47Brené Brown?

  No.

• 42:48Lewis Howes?

  That's when you get hurt the most.

• 42:49Brené Brown?

  It's when you get hurt the most.

• 42:50Lewis Howes?

  It's when you suffer the most, and I think that's when the most anger, frustration, rage.

• 42:54Brené Brown?

  Rage.

• 42:55Lewis Howes?

  And I guess divergent happens. And I was watching this video last night where they were documenting the whole process of the Charlottesville thing. I think Vice was doing this. The person interviewing like the leader, one of the guys who was like the leader of the marches or whatever, was saying about how, you know, this is our land and our forefathers were whites and it belongs to us. It's like this whole thing that it belongs to a certain race or something. It just blows my mind. It's like...

• 43:23Brené Brown?

  Forgetting clearly about the Native Americans who were here before we took it.

• 43:28Lewis Howes?

  Right, exactly. But I mean, it just blows my mind that all this comes back to like feeling like we need to belong, I guess, and protect what was ours or what's our right, something.

• 43:39Brené Brown?

  It all comes back to identity and belonging.

• 43:41Lewis Howes?

  Belonging, yeah.

• 43:42Brené Brown?

  But underneath identity and belonging, there's something that we don't talk about and it comes down to power. It comes down to power. I mean, I think what we're witnessing is power over's last stand.

• 43:54Lewis Howes?

  And that's what I love. You write about how, I think, most men who come from this place feel like power is only one person or one group can have the power as opposed to we can spread the power throughout the world.

• 44:05Brené Brown?

  Like it's a pepperoni pizza. Like if I give Louis a little power, I'm gonna have less, so make sure I'm comfortable giving it to you, when it's not.

• 44:14Lewis Howes?

  Don't give any slices away.

• 44:15Brené Brown?

  Don't give slices away. And so what we see around the world right now, not just with this administration, but globally, is we see the concept of power over making a last stand. And it is not going to work. What is going to work moving forward with the completely devastatingly difficult problems we have at hand is power with and power to. Power with each other. Collective power. The things that are killing us right now, we're not going to solve by ourselves as a nation. They're global issues. We need global solutions. We need everyone at the table for them. But that is a really, I mean, we

• 44:54Brené Brown?

  are at a huge turning point in history that should not be minimized or misunderstood. I mean, for the first time ever, the problems that challenge us the most are problems that will not be solved with national solutions. They are global problems.

• 45:14Brené Brown?

  That require global solutions and collaboration. And for a lot of people, that's really scary.

• 45:22Lewis Howes?

  Hard.

• 45:22Brené Brown?

  Hard, hard. What about us? What about me? You know, and last stands, you know about last stands. Last stands are violent.

• 45:32Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 45:32Brené Brown?

  Last stands are fueled by desperation.

• 45:35Lewis Howes?

  Whatever it takes.

• 45:36Brené Brown?

  And fear and whatever it takes.

• 45:37Lewis Howes?

  Risking it all.

• 45:38Brené Brown?

  Risking it all. And so what you're seeing right now are people risking it all. Showing up at these marches with friggin tiki torches. I mean, like, it's not even started around the Polynesian, how the Polynesian people feel about their tiki torches. But I mean, like, with tiki torches, basically, basically mimicking the Ku Klux Klan.

• 46:00Lewis Howes?

  It's so crazy.

• 46:01Brené Brown?

  But without sheets, this is power over his last stand. And these folks are nostalgic for a time that never existed.

• 46:12Lewis Howes?

  Where they thought they had the power.

• 46:13Brené Brown?

  Where they, yeah, what they're interested in is, it was so much better back then. And what they're not saying is, when people knew their place. And so it's going to get harder.

• 46:26Lewis Howes?

  If you had a message to give to our nation's leader, what would you say?

• 46:31Brené Brown?

  Roosevelt said that the presidency, above all else, is a place for moral leadership. And I believe there are lines that we do not cross. There are morality lines etched in dignity about people's inherent worth. And we should never cross those lines. And they have been crossed so many times around immigration, around women, around building walls. And that, at the very least, we can argue about policy. We can argue about whether, you know, social security lock boxes, or what should we do around taxation? Healthcare, those are important things.

• 47:15Brené Brown?

  But at the very least, a person in that office should be a moral leader. And that line should never be crossed. Because when you cross it, it says so much more about your integrity than it does about the people you're attacking.

• 47:29Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, yeah. If you had a microphone, and everyone had headphones on, was listening to the end of this microphone, and you got a message to share to all the men in the world. Within 60 seconds or less. And all the men, we're gonna put on headphones and hear a message from you.

• 47:49Brené Brown?

  It's very Orwellian, I like it.

• 47:50Lewis Howes?

  And you got one chance to say something to these men. From all over the world, and they could all understand English, and they understood you.

• 47:58Brené Brown?

  You're taking care of all the logistics.

• 47:59Lewis Howes?

  Logistics, they got it on. It's not fuzzy, there's no wifi signal. Everyone's got access to hearing your voice for 60 seconds. All the men, and all the women are actually standing by listening as well. What would you say to all the men of the world, in general?

• 48:14Brené Brown?

  Golly. You know, I wouldn't wanna screw that up. Let me think. Yeah. I think I would say that vulnerability is not weakness. It's about the willingness to show up and be seen when you can't control the outcome. And it is actually our greatest measure of courage.

• 48:36Brené Brown?

  So...

• 48:39Brené Brown?

  Show up in an authentic way and let us see your hearts. Because we know how lonely you actually are.

• 48:50Lewis Howes?

  Wow.

• 48:51Brené Brown?

  Yeah, men are lonely.

• 48:54Brené Brown?

  I mean, it's really, men are lonely, it's really hard.

• 49:00Brené Brown?

  But I would not, I think that's, I don't think I would say anything differently to women either. You know, because I think there is certainly, you know, for women, the greatest shame trigger is do it all, do it perfectly, and never let them see you sweat, look perfect, work perfect.

• 49:17Lewis Howes?

  In all areas.

• 49:18Brené Brown?

  In all areas.

• 49:19Lewis Howes?

  Workforce, at home.

• 49:20Brené Brown?

  Yeah, be smoking hot and brilliant and this, but don't ever look like you're putting any effort toward it. And so...

• 49:25Lewis Howes?

  It's so easy, right?

• 49:26Brené Brown?

  Right, it is. I don't understand why my sisters have not nailed that. But, uh... I think... So, it's hard for women to be vulnerable because it's less than perfect. You know?

• 49:40Lewis Howes?

  You mean women aren't wearing masks?

• 49:44Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and it's terrible because then the two collide. And you see in a lot of partnerships, I mean, I've seen it so much in my research, this contract we have, where I'll stay smoking hot and awesome and, you know, money and provider shame is such a real thing for men. And, you know, you do this and this is our contract and we're both in straitjackets till we die. Yeah, and so like-

• 50:10Lewis Howes?

  How do we remove those jackets?

• 50:12Brené Brown?

  We just start getting real with each other. We just start being really honest. And we see each other. You know, we really see each other.

• 50:22Lewis Howes?

  Yeah, wow. I've got a few minutes left, so I'm gonna be mindful of these questions.

• 50:30Brené Brown?

  I know, unfortunate, let's go now, let's cut it.

• 50:32Lewis Howes?

  I could ask you, I could talk to you for hours. Is there anything you feel ashamed of still?

• 50:38Brené Brown?

  Oh, I have moments for sure, like, I will have moments of... But now I know, I mean, it's, we can't ever get rid of shame. What we can do is develop resilience to shame. So when it happens and it washes over, that warm wash that makes you feel small and not enough, when that washes over me, rather than yelling at my kids or just decimating myself with hateful language, you know, and like, "You're stupid" or "You're not..." Now, when it washes over me, I'm like, "Okay, I'm in shame, don't talk, text, or type. What happened?" So there are still, I mean, I still have triggers around it. I still have triggers around it, and I still think it's probably the same, motherhood, trying to, you know, do everything and balance everything and be where I'm supposed to be,

• 51:20Brené Brown?

  and that's still hard sometimes, you know?

• 51:24Lewis Howes?

  What's the process that someone should take on when they feel shame, anger, rage?

• 51:29Brené Brown?

  Well, shame is, shame I can really help you with is, first and foremost, talk to someone, talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. So if you really, if you, if something happens and you're overwhelmed with shame, the first thing you need to do is get back on your emotional feet, don't talk, text, or type to anyone, because the first, one of the things we want to do is push that [BLEEP] out on other people.

• 51:48Lewis Howes?

  I'm good at that.

• 51:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Lewis Howes?

  I'm guilty of that.

• 51:50Brené Brown?

  Yeah, no, yeah. So just get into a dark, quiet place and then talk to yourself like you talk to someone you love. Just be like, "Dude, it's okay, like, you screwed this up, you, what you said was super hurtful, you're gonna have to circle back and clean that stuff up." But give yourself a break here, just like I would talk to Ellen or Charlie if they made a mistake. Then reach out and talk to someone about what you're feeling. Shame cannot survive being spoken. So if you, if I call you and I'm like, "Oh my God, Louis, I'm in a shame storm. You're not gonna believe what happened." And you listen to me and you respond empathically or empathetically with something like, "Oh my God, I've been there," or "Oh God, I get it. I'm sorry. That sucks." Shame can't hold on, because shame can't survive empathy.

• 52:35Lewis Howes?

  I 100% agree with that. A quick example, for 25 years, I held on to the shame of being sexually abused by a man that I didn't know. And I was like, if anyone knew this about me, you know, my life was over. That's how shameful I felt, embarrassed and,

• 52:51Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Lewis Howes?

  You know, abused, I felt from the experience. And when I finally had the courage to share it, it took me, you know, a couple of years to share it over and over many, many times. I don't feel shameful. Like, I can talk about it openly and freely, without feeling embarrassed, without feeling weak, soft, vulnerable, because, you know, I own the experience and it's not something I have to hold in and like react through rage, because I can just share it. And I can communicate, as opposed to

• 53:21Brené Brown?

  It's so brave.

• 53:21Lewis Howes?

  Hold into this.

• 53:22Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 53:23Lewis Howes?

  And I think whenever I face anything that I'm scared to talk about now, I just say, "Well, how can I talk about it?" How can I journal? I like to journal first.

• 53:31Brené Brown?

  Oh, that's huge.

• 53:32Lewis Howes?

  So no one can shame me, right?

• 53:33Brené Brown?

  Yeah, that's huge.

• 53:35Lewis Howes?

  Yeah. And then I start having conversations. And when we have ownership over that shame, I feel like it doesn't own us anymore.

• 53:42Brené Brown?

  I mean, so that's a perfect example. First of all, it's devastating that that happens. It happens to boys.

• 53:48Lewis Howes?

  One in six.

• 53:49Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think that's an underestimate. They think that that...

• 53:52Lewis Howes?

  No, one in six is what's known.

• 53:55Brené Brown?

  Yeah, and they think it's probably double that, because of our culture and inability of boys to speak safely, even to their own parents around it.

• 54:02Lewis Howes?

  I never told anyone.

• 54:03Brené Brown?

  Right.

• 54:03Lewis Howes?

  My parents didn't know.

• 54:04Brené Brown?

  Right. So, so here's the example exactly. You talk about it now. So when, so two choices. You own your story. You get to write the ending. You don't own the story. The story owns you.

• 54:15Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:16Brené Brown?

  So then you talk about it now. So shame can't hold on. But then people see and hear you talking about it, and it gives them permission to talk about it. That's why shame cannot hold on to being spoken. So your courage to talk about that...

• 54:33Brené Brown?

  Deflates shame. It takes it out of the air.

• 54:36Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Brené Brown?

  It's like filtering poison out of water.

• 54:38Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 54:39Brené Brown?

  Because you've got the courage to speak up. I mean, and that's how it works. And that's how all of this works. Is that we own our story, or it owns us.

• 54:49Lewis Howes?

  Mm-hmm. Final two questions. I know I've got to hurry up. Okay.

• 54:55Lewis Howes?

  This is called the three truths. I ask everyone at the end of the interviews, the three truths. You've written many books, you know, all number one New York Times bestsellers. Let's imagine it's your last day, many, many years from now.

• 55:06Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 55:06Lewis Howes?

  You get to write the story when it's your last day on your own terms, right? You've written every book you've ever wanted to write. You've said everything you've always wanted to say. You've done every video, interview, whatever it is, you've achieved anything you set out to do.

• 55:18Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 55:19Lewis Howes?

  But for whatever reason, it's all erased and gone. So no one has access to any of this information.

• 55:24Brené Brown?

  Okay.

• 55:24Lewis Howes?

  And you're there with all the people you care about. And you have a piece of paper and a pen. And you get to write down three things you know to be true about everything you've experienced in life. This is all people would have of your message left behind. What would you say are the three truths for you?

• 55:42Brené Brown?

  Steve, Ellen, and Charlie were my greatest true loves, for sure.

• 55:50Brené Brown?

  After that, everything seems small.

• 55:53Brené Brown?

  Love takes courage. Be brave. Let yourself be seen.

• 55:59Brené Brown?

  And don't wait for the grownups to get there. It's, that's, that's the myth. We don't know what we're doing. We're just putting our best foot forward. So if you have an idea and answer, go for it.

• 56:11Lewis Howes?

  Yeah.

• 56:12Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 56:12Lewis Howes?

  That's cool. That's cool.

• 56:13Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 56:14Lewis Howes?

  Before I ask the final question.

• 56:15Brené Brown?

  Yeah.

• 56:16Lewis Howes?

  I want to make sure you guys go get the book.

• 56:17Brené Brown?

  I'm scared for the final one. Cut. Let's go. Wrap it up.

• 56:21Lewis Howes?

  The final question's easy. But this is, Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone. Make sure you guys go get this book. It's going to be a game changer. Highly recommend it. I'll have it linked up everywhere on the site and below this video. Very powerful. You're an incredible writer. And I just know this is going to serve so many people who feel alone in the world of uncertainty. And I want to acknowledge you, Bernay, for being an incredible gift to the world with all of your imperfections and the beautifulness that you have within you. I think it takes so much courage to share these things, the way you've been doing them for years, decades, you've been opening up and talking about it, and to bring it out

• 57:04Lewis Howes?

  to a public platform and continue to dive in deeper. I acknowledge you because the weight that it carries of listening to everyone else's

• 57:15Lewis Howes?

  pain, as I've started to open up about mine, I just feel the weight of everyone now sharing with me. I can only imagine

• 57:22Brené Brown?

  It's a lot sometimes.

• 57:23Lewis Howes?

  The weight that you get to carry and are privileged to carry because of the work you're getting to do and the impact you have on so many people who feel, who are suffering, who feel like there is no hope, there is no way out, who are stuck in all areas of their life. You give people such inspiration and tools and education on how to transform their life. So I acknowledge you for all the work that you do.

• 57:48Brené Brown?

  Oh, thank you.

• 57:49Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome, you're welcome. This is the final question.

• 57:52Brené Brown?

  That's amazing.

• 57:53Lewis Howes?

  You're welcome, it's my pleasure, yeah. The final question is simple, it's what's your definition of greatness?

• 58:01Brené Brown?

  To own your story and love yourself through that process, that's greatness to me.

• 58:05Lewis Howes?

  I hope today's episode inspired you on your journey towards greatness. Make sure to check out the show notes in the description for a rundown of today's show with all the important links. And if you want weekly exclusive bonus episodes with me as well as ad-free listening experience, make sure to subscribe to our Greatness Plus channel on Apple Podcast. If you enjoyed this, please share it with a friend over on social media or text a friend, leave us a review over on Apple Podcasts, and let me know what you learned over on our social media channels, at Lewis Howes. I really love hearing the feedback from you and it helps us continue to make the show better. And if you want more inspiration from our world-class guests and content to learn how to improve the quality of your life, then make sure to sign up for the Greatness Newsletter

• 58:48Lewis Howes?

  and get it delivered right to your inbox over at greatness.com/newsletter. And if no one has told you today, I want to remind you that you are loved, you are worthy, and you matter. And now, it's time to go out there and do something great.