#265 Lee Strobel - Who is the Real Santa Claus & What Evidence Connects Jesus to Christmas?

Lee Strobel is an American Christian author, apologist, speaker, and former investigative journalist who transitioned from an atheist investigative journalist into a leading Christian apologist and author, blending rigorous investigative methods with his faith journey to influence millions worldwide. Born in Arlington Heights, Illinois, Strobel earned a Bachelor of Journalism degree from the University of Missouri and a Master of Studies in Law degree from Yale Law School; growing up in a nominally Christian but non-practicing household, he became a committed atheist who viewed Christianity as irrational until 1979, when his wife Leslie’s conversion prompted a nearly two-year personal investigation into the historical evidence for Jesus. On November 8, 1981, at age 29, Strobel became a Christian, an experience he describes as “falling in love with Jesus” while interviewing scholars and examining ancient manuscripts. A 14-year veteran of The Chicago Tribune where he served as award-winning legal editor, Strobel earned Illinois’ highest honors for investigative reporting and public service journalism from United Press International before pivoting full-time to Christian apologetics. He is a New York Times bestselling author of over 40 books and curricula—including the seminal The Case for Christ (1998), which has sold over 5 million copies—with total sales exceeding 18 million copies translated into 40 languages. His “Case for…” series, along with titles like The Case for Faith, The Case for Miracles, and The Case for Heaven, applies courtroom-style evidence to core doctrines. Strobel, currently serves as Founding Director of the Lee Strobel Center for Evangelism and Applied Apologetics at Colorado Christian University. He is described by The Washington Post as “one of the evangelical community’s most popular apologists,” he has received multiple Gold Medallion Awards and the 2023 Pillar Award for History from the Museum of the Bible. Married to Leslie since 1973, Strobel is father to daughter Alison (novelist and homeschooling expert) and son Kyle (professor of spiritual theology at Biola University’s Talbot School of Theology), and he continues to equip believers worldwide with intellectual tools to defend and share their faith effectively. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://USCCA.com/srs Sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at http://shopify.com/srs When you buy gold or silver through https://ShawnLikesGold.com, you’ll get up to 10% FREE SILVER OR GOLD on qualified purchases from my partners over at Goldco. Lee Strobel Links: X - https://x.com/LeeStrobel IG - https://www.instagram.com/leestrobel YT - https://www.youtube.com/@LeeStrobelOfficial Web - https://leestrobel.com Book - https://www.amazon.com/Case-Christmas-Journalist-Investigates-Identity/dp/0310371031 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  Lee Strobel, welcome back. Thank you. And Merry Christmas. You too. Thanks for, uh, I wore red. I see, I should have thought about this a little bit more. That's all right. It's not actually Christmas yet, but... Well, yeah, well. But, um, well, Lee, we had you last year for Christmas. Yeah. And, uh, that was the first time we met. It was, yeah. And, um, then we had you on for Easter with, with our mutual friend, John, and so you got the new, the book, the new book coming out, and, uh... Yeah, The Case for Christmas. Yeah, so I thought, we gotta do this again. Plus, I just love being around you and hanging out. I love hanging out.

• 1:45Shawn Ryan?

  So, uh, so this one will be all about Christmas and Jesus's birth and all that good stuff. Yeah. But, um, but I want to start off with an introduction, just like always, so... Lee Strobel, a Christian author, speaker, and former investigative journalist. You went from an atheist investigative journalist into leading Christian apologist and author, blending rigorous investigative methods with your faith journey to influence millions worldwide. New York Times bestselling author of over 40 books and curricula with sales exceeding 18 million copies translated into 40 different languages.

• 2:25Shawn Ryan?

  Recently updated your book, The Case for Christmas, and Hobby Lobby has purchased 1 million copies and is giving them away for free.

• 2:34Lee Strobel?

  Only half a million.

• 2:36Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, half of, only half a million.

• 2:38Lee Strobel?

  Only half a million.

• 2:39Shawn Ryan?

  But, so if you're at Hobby Lobby, you can pick one up for free. Married to Leslie since 1972, and you have two adult children and four grandkids.

• 2:50Lee Strobel?

  That's me.

• 2:51Shawn Ryan?

  That's you.

• 2:52Lee Strobel?

  Can we go home now?

• 2:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. But, but, you know, I just, like I said, I'm just happy to have you here again. And, you know, we were kind of talking at breakfast about, you know, the revival of Christianity. And I think we actually started talking about this a year ago.

• 3:11Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 3:12Shawn Ryan?

  Almost to the date, exactly. And, and how far it has come just in the past year. And you had some pretty interesting statistics.

• 3:21Lee Strobel?

  There's actually a new survey done by the Barna Organization that show that among, especially young people who have taken some sort of step as a result of the Charlie Kirk assassination, far more of them, like three times as many have taken a spiritual step versus a political step. So I think it's something like 38% who took a step, took a spiritual step, and like 11% took a political step, which to me is a fascinating phenomenon. When you look at also Bible sales continue to be extremely high. When you look at how many young guys are going back to church, young women are kind of leaving the church a bit right now, but it's young guys who are going to church.

• 4:03Shawn Ryan?

  This is very new.

• 4:05Lee Strobel?

  Very new, very exciting, I think. It's like God is trying to stirring the spiritual pot, you know, something's going on in the culture.

• 4:12Shawn Ryan?

  Definitely.

• 4:13Lee Strobel?

  And I think it's a positive thing. I think especially Generation X and, and um, um, alphas, young, young people. They've been lied to so much, you know, AI, who knows what's true and what's not. You go on Twitter and X, you know, and you see this funny video and then you realize, oh, it was artificial intelligence. And, you know, television commercials just lie to you about things or mislead you. Radio commercials and, and uh, politics has told you one thing when you know that ain't true. And I think a lot of young people get to the point where I'd like to base my life on something solid. I'd like to anchor it on something that's true. And that's a good thing because I think personally, my experience has been that's who Jesus is.

• 4:58Lee Strobel?

  And that's who we celebrate at Christmas.

• 5:00Shawn Ryan?

  I think that's, I mean, I think you're right on the bunny there with why this is all happening. And yeah, the younger generations are all coming back, but I, I see it in the, in all the generations.

• 5:11Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 5:11Shawn Ryan?

  And all, I mean, I mean, I see it in, in, in, in the older folks. And the folks my age and the younger generation, everybody, at least everybody around me is start, is talking about this. And they're going back or they're going, or they're just initially.

• 5:28Lee Strobel?

  Right, first time going to church.

• 5:30Shawn Ryan?

  And it's really, it's, it's just really cool to see. And so once again, I mean, that's, I just, I learned so much from you guys. And um, and I mean, this journey started for me, what about two, maybe three years ago ish? I think it's about two years ago. But, you know, and, and even in this, it's hard to find, there's so many different opinions.

• 5:51Lee Strobel?

  Yes, yes.

• 5:53Shawn Ryan?

  And, and different contexts on how you can take scripture and so. And I've just learned so much from you and from John and, and my buddy Todd that I'm gonna bring up again today. He's probably like, oh shit, what am I gonna say now? But um, but, but um, and so I, I think it's, it's just important. And also all these people are coming back to Christ or coming to Christ. And there's a lot of questions. And so I, I just, I, I think. We don't all know where to look.

• 6:25Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 6:25Shawn Ryan?

  But you're a great resource.

• 6:27Lee Strobel?

  You know, I'm, yes, there are a lot of questions, and that's a good thing.

• 6:30Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:31Lee Strobel?

  You know, I think a lot of people, especially people who are Christians, who are going to a church, and they've got a question, they've got a doubt. They don't want to say anything. Because they're afraid, oh, you're gonna think I don't have faith, or you're gonna, you know, you're gonna look down your nose at me. And unfortunately, they hold it in. And it's like a little kid. You know, when a little kid has a nightmare, um, he jumps out of bed and he runs into his parents' room, and he jumps into bed, and he's sweating, and his heart's pounding, and they say, what's wrong, what's wrong? Oh, I had this dream, this horrible dream. Say, well, tell us about the dream. Oh, well, there's this monster under my bed, and he had three eyes, and he was... And then you start to laugh. You know? Because you let it out, you talk about it.

• 7:12Lee Strobel?

  And if you hold it in, it's gonna erode your soul, questions and doubts. So I say, let it out, talk about it, investigate it, do what I did as an atheist, and check out these things. Um, you'll come to a better resolution of it that'll give you a solid faith. So I hope people don't shrink back when they have doubts or questions. You know, it doesn't surprise God. God's not going, what, what do you mean, you don't think such and such? He's, he's, you know, when, when John the Baptist, who, if anybody should know the identity of Jesus was John the Baptist, he's the one that pointed Jesus as, I behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. But then he gets arrested, he gets thrown in prison. Now he's got doubts. Now he's got questions. But what does he do?

• 7:55Lee Strobel?

  Does he allow that to just erode his soul? No. He gets some friends together, said, look, go track down Jesus and ask him point blank, are you the one we've been waiting for, we didn't wait for somebody else? So they tracked down Jesus, and they say, hey, Jesus, well, John's... He got busted. And now he's freaking out. So would you just tell us once and for all, are you the one we've been waiting for? And how does Jesus react? Does he get mad? How dare John, of all people, have the temerity to express a hesitation? No. Says, look, go back to John. Tell him what you have seen and heard. The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor. Go back, tell them the evidence that you've seen with your own eyes that convinces you

• 8:40Lee Strobel?

  that I am the one I claim to be. So they go back and they tell John. But this doesn't destroy John as having any role in the kingdom of God because he dared to ask a question or express a doubt. It's after this that Jesus gets up before a group and he says, "Among those born of women, there's no one greater than John." John, the guy who dared to ask a question. So we should feel liberated as Christians or as spiritual seekers. Say, "It's okay to have questions. It's natural. It's expected. Just kind of do the due diligence. Go to good sources and check it out from reputable people who've got a track record of accessing scripture in a way that makes sense and is consistent with the intent of the writers."

• 9:18Shawn Ryan?

  I love that. Thank you. Thank you. So last year, we did all about the life of Jesus Christ. And this year, I want to talk all about Christmas.

• 9:29Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 9:30Shawn Ryan?

  You know, the Virgin Mary.

• 9:32Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 9:32Shawn Ryan?

  Bethlehem.

• 9:33Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 9:33Shawn Ryan?

  The journey, why she had to be a virgin.

• 9:36Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 9:38Shawn Ryan?

  And a lot of Jesus stuff too.

• 9:39Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, awesome. I love that.

• 9:41Shawn Ryan?

  I thought that would be, I thought that would be a really good, uh,

• 9:44Lee Strobel?

  Sure.

• 9:44Shawn Ryan?

  for our next Christmas interview.

• 9:46Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, excellent.

• 9:47Shawn Ryan?

  So, a couple of things to knock out here real quick. You know, you always get a gift when you come on. Nothing's changed.

• 9:54Lee Strobel?

  Come on. Thank you.

• 9:57Shawn Ryan?

  Vigilance, Lee, God, and various men.

• 9:58Lee Strobel?

  Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

• 10:01Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. You're welcome. And then, we got a Patreon account.

• 10:05Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 10:06Shawn Ryan?

  And you know that. It's quite the community. And they're the reason that we get to sit here with each other today. We had a lot of good questions, but I'm going to hijack the question today.

• 10:15Lee Strobel?

  Sure.

• 10:15Shawn Ryan?

  And so, I'm always, I'm always picking your brain and John's brain and Todd's brain and, and Ruzlan's brain or whoever I bring in, um, you know, to chat about, about the Good Word, right? But I'm curious, what have you learned this year?

• 10:34Lee Strobel?

  Hmm.

• 10:35Shawn Ryan?

  What did you learn? I'm always learning from you guys.

• 10:38Lee Strobel?

  Great question.

• 10:38Shawn Ryan?

  I'm curious what you've learned this year.

• 10:41Lee Strobel?

  I learned a lot this year. And I say that because about 20 years ago, I did a book called The Case for Christmas. And, um, um, it came out, I don't know, back in 2002, something like that. And, um, now the new book is a complete rewrite and complete revision and updating of that book. So I had to update it. I had to do the research. And I learned so much in the research of that book that changed my perspective on Christmas, changed my perspective on, um, the gospels, uh, changed my perspective on Jesus. Um, just a lot of things about, um, uh, some of the translations that may not be giving us the best picture of what really took place.

• 11:24Lee Strobel?

  Uh, there's one Greek word. If you get that Greek word wrong, it kind of changes everything. And I think a lot of people have gotten it wrong. So, um, and then the questions, things like, things that everybody wonders about, like, why do we celebrate it on December the 25th? Um, I had my theories about that, but now there's been some more recent scholarly research done into that. So now we got good evidence why we do celebrate on December 25th. So I just, kind of by updating the book, I kind of updated my own knowledge about Christmas. And it just made this Christmas so much more fun. Uh, cause I get to tell, hey, you know what? And I get to tell people all this fascinating stuff.

• 12:03Shawn Ryan?

  Good. Well, I can't wait to hear everything you've learned.

• 12:06Lee Strobel?

  Great.

• 12:06Shawn Ryan?

  Last thing, I'd like to just, you know, we always kick it off with a prayer.

• 12:11Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 12:11Shawn Ryan?

  So if you don't mind.

• 12:13Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 12:13Shawn Ryan?

  I'd love, uh, for you to lead us.

• 12:14Lee Strobel?

  Yes, I'd love to.

• 12:15Shawn Ryan?

  And then I may insert a couple of things here at the end.

• 12:17Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. Lord, thanks for this opportunity to talk to Shawn, Shawn, see him again and hang out with his folks, his people here at, uh, his place. It's just such an encouragement to me and such a joy to do. And we pray that as we talk about Christmas, this, the incarnation of the Son of God, this monumental miracle that took place 2,000 years ago, that it would first of all, encourage people who are your followers and embolden them and give them confidence in what we believe. But I pray for those that are kind of spiritually curious. They're not sure what they believe. They're on a journey. They're questioning things. They're doubting things. Lord, I pray you use our conversation to point them toward you. In Jesus' name.

• 12:59Shawn Ryan?

  In Jesus' name, and I would just like to add, you know, that there are a lot of, a lot of folks out there looking for answers, as Lee kinda just mentioned, but there's also a lot of people out there that are lonely on Christmas and other holidays, and, and we just ask that, that you be with them, and we hope that we can bring them at least a little bit of joy through our interview today, which we'll be releasing on Christmas. In Jesus' name, amen.

• 13:24Lee Strobel?

  Amen. Thank you. That's great.

• 13:26Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Lee. Thank you.

• 13:28Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Shawn Ryan?

  All right, so, man, with all this stuff that you've learned, I don't need, you just rewrote my whole outline, so, uh, so, we're going to go down a lot of rabbit holes. So, I have an outline, and I would just, anything that you've learned, if you think it's, it's appropriate to share in that portion of the interview, please do, because I am fascinated to hear, you know, with what you've learned. But I'd like to start off with the Virgin Mary.

• 13:58Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 13:58Shawn Ryan?

  So, when did we know that, I have, when did we know that Jesus was gonna come from the Virgin Mary?

• 14:08Lee Strobel?

  We knew it 700 years before it happened. Um, the prophet Isaiah, in Isaiah 7, verse 14, foretold that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. Now, that gets a little controversial, because skeptics will say sometimes, well, wait a minute, the word alma in the Greek that's used there doesn't always necessarily mean virgin. If they meant, if to use virgin, they would've used the word batula, which is another Hebrew word. And so, was he really talking about a virgin birth of the Messiah?

• 14:39Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:40Lee Strobel?

  Well, the answer is, there was no single word in ancient Hebrew that always meant virgin. They didn't have a word in their vocabulary. The word that's used, alma, it means young maiden. And a young maiden was presumed to be a virgin in those days. The other word that people wanted to use, patula, actually is used sometimes of widows, who were not virgins. So, they did use the correct word. A young maiden, a virgin, is to give birth. In fact, before Jesus was even born, when the scholars translated the Hebrew scriptures into the Greek, the word that they chose for that translation, assuming before Jesus was born, was virgin. So, they got it.

• 15:22Lee Strobel?

  So, this prediction, 700 years in advance, was that the Messiah would be born of a virgin. Other people say, "No, no, no, that actual passage, that was a prophecy for King Ahas, who lived back in those days." And yes, there is stuff in there about King Ahas. It's a double fulfillment of that passage. But it's in a nest of messianic prophecies. Isaiah, chapter 7, the Messiah is going to be born of a virgin. In Isaiah, chapter 9, he is already born, and he is declared mighty God. In Isaiah, chapter 11, he is reigning with the power of the Spirit. So, this is in a cluster of messianic prophecies. Besides which, this King Ahas, he was in trouble back then.

• 16:08Lee Strobel?

  There were a couple armies that were trying to kill King Ahas. And so, God was trying to reassure him, "Hey, look, I'm gonna take care of you. Don't worry about it, you're gonna come out fine." But King Ahas was of the house of David. If he had been killed, as these enemies were trying to kill him back then, that would have ended the line of David. The Messiah was to come through the line of David. So, the fact that Ahas needed to survive this challenge to his life was very relevant to the birth ultimately of the Messiah. So, we knew 700 years before Jesus was born, that the Messiah would be born of a virgin.

• 16:50Shawn Ryan?

  I've spent years on this show pulling back the curtain and trying to reveal what's really happening in this country. And the truth is, there's a double standard here in America. You see time and time again, people defending themselves, defending their family, and then the judicial system goes after them. It's a double standard. If you don't believe me, check out episode number three with Don Bradley. That is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Because it's not just about what you did, believe it or not, it's how the legal system interprets it. And that's why I'm a USCCA member. The USCCA has over

• 17:29Shawn Ryan?

  860,000 members because they know the reality is, after you stop the threat, the real fight begins. Your membership gives you the education, elite training, and self-defense liability insurance you need for the second fight, the legal one. Plus, every member also gets access to a 24/7 critical response team and attorney network in the event of a self-defense incident. Violent crime happens too often in America. This isn't about living in fear, this is about being prepared when things go sideways. You don't get to schedule danger, and with the world changing so fast, you have to do what you can to protect your family.

• 18:14Shawn Ryan?

  Check out the USCCA's risk-free membership at uscca.com/srs. That's uscca.com/srs. Protect

• 18:26Shawn Ryan?

  more than just your life, protect your future. Go right now to uscca.com/srs.

• 18:37Shawn Ryan?

  Want more from the Sean Ryan Show? Join our Patreon today for more clips and exclusive content. You'll get an exclusive look behind the scenes, where you can watch the guests interact with the team and explore the studio before every episode. Plus, unlock bonus content, like our extra intel segments, where we ask our guests additional questions, our new SRS onsite specials, and access to an entire tactical training library you will not find anywhere else. And the best part? Patreon members can ask our guests questions directly. Your insights can help shape the show. Join us on Patreon now, support the mission, and become part of the Sean Ryan Show's story.

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• 19:51Shawn Ryan?

  I want to ask you, this is the phone call that I took when you were...

• 19:55Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Shawn Ryan?

  When you... So, I bring up Todd a lot. Todd is, Todd is who I do my Bible study with.

• 20:01Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 20:02Shawn Ryan?

  I know every time I mention his name, he's like, "Oh, boy, where are we going?" But, um, but I remember the very first Bible study I ever did, um, actually, yeah, ever did with, with Todd.

• 20:15Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 20:15Shawn Ryan?

  And just ever. And, um, we were talking about Genesis.

• 20:20Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 20:20Shawn Ryan?

  And it was Genesis 3:15.

• 20:25Lee Strobel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:26Shawn Ryan?

  And he says, and I have this recording, maybe I'll play it for you if I don't describe it right. He says that, that God is basically telling Satan that his nemesis that's gonna crush him

• 20:40Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 20:40Shawn Ryan?

  is gonna be from the seed of a woman.

• 20:42Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 20:43Shawn Ryan?

  But Todd then also says, "The woman does not have a seed."

• 20:48Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 20:48Shawn Ryan?

  "The man is the one that has a seed."

• 20:50Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 20:50Shawn Ryan?

  And so we knew all the way back in Genesis when God told Eve

• 20:54Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 20:55Shawn Ryan?

  that the Messiah is gonna come from a virgin. So, through this, you know, kind of cryptic type way, right? Is that a prophecy right there?

• 21:04Lee Strobel?

  It is a prophecy. You're exactly right. Um, you know, a, a, a female child has two X chromosomes. A male child has an X and a Y chromosome. The Y comes from the male. And so, in order for Mary to give birth to a male child, she would have to have a Y chromosome in her ovum. How did that happen? She wouldn't have, she just have two X's. She would not have the male, the Y chromosome. So, how can it come from the seed of a woman? With, how did she get a Y chromosome? Well, this was a big problem for one of the main, biggest defenders of Christianity in the world. Two earned PhDs. His name is Dr. William Lane Craig. Dr.

• 21:49Lee Strobel?

  Craig doubted the virgin birth. Cause he said, Mary can't give birth to a male child without a literal husband, you know, having sex with her, because she doesn't have the Y chromosome. So it bothered him for, and then he said, oh, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Scientists all around the world now agree the universe began to exist at some point in the past. Therefore, whatever begins to exist has a cause behind it. We now know the universe began to exist, so there must be a cause behind the universe. What kind of a cause can bring a universe into existence? It must be transcendent or separate from creation.

• 22:31Lee Strobel?

  It must be immaterial or spirit, because it existed before the physical world. It must be eternal or timeless, because it existed before time came into being, physical time, at the creation. Must be powerful, given the immensity of the creation event. Must be smart, given the precision of the creation event. Must be personal, because they had to make the decision to create. Must be creative, because look at the beauty of the cosmos. Must be loving, because he crafted such a perfect habitat for us to flourish in. And the Occam's razor, Occam's razor, which is a scientific principle, tells us it would be just one creator. That is a description, transcendent, immaterial, powerful, that is a description of the God of the Bible. And so, he said, wait a minute.

• 23:15Lee Strobel?

  If God created all that there is, for him to create a Y chromosome in Mary? Supernaturally? Would be child's play. And he overcame that objection he had to the, how could Mary have given birth to a male child without the Y chromosome? So, it was from the seed of Mary, as opposed from a male contribution to the genetics of the child. So, God could create genetic code, he can create the Y chromosome. That's nothing compared to the creation of the cosmos, which is unbelievable.

• 23:55Lee Strobel?

  So, that kind of satisfied for him, the, sort of the possibility that God could have pulled this off.

• 24:02Shawn Ryan?

  Why was it so important that Jesus was born of a virgin?

• 24:06Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, very important because-

• 24:08Shawn Ryan?

  And that's a miracle in itself, so I do understand the symbolism.

• 24:11Lee Strobel?

  Yes, it was a miracle in itself, but also, it meant that he would not be tainted by original sin, or a corrupt moral nature that has come down ever since Adam messed up, and it's kind of corrupted the human being, the line of human beings. It had to be an interruption in that, somehow. Otherwise, she would have inherited this corrupt moral nature that we all inherit.

• 24:31Shawn Ryan?

  Because, are you saying that because she wasn't married?

• 24:34Lee Strobel?

  Uh, no, I'm saying that because, you know, all humankind has got this corrupt moral nature, but here's, here's what happened. In Luke 1, verse 35, as he describes the virgin birth, Luke says, through an angel, Mary is told, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you and overshadow you, so that," in other words, "as a consequence of that, the child will be born holy, and will be declared the Son of God." He, he will become, holy means sinless, he will be sinless. So notice, there is something about the conception of the child through the Holy Spirit, that

• 25:17Lee Strobel?

  has created sinlessness in the baby who is born. Because he uses that word, "so that," the Holy Spirit is going to conceive the child, "so that he will be holy, he will be without sin."

• 25:31Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 25:32Lee Strobel?

  We don't understand that process necessarily, but it is the intervention of the Holy Spirit that interrupts that lineage of, of corrupt moral nature, and stops it, so that this child is born without original sin, without corrupt-

• 25:47Shawn Ryan?

  So, it's not the, it's not the, it's not the-

• 25:51Shawn Ryan?

  How do I say that? It's not that there was no sex. There was no, there was no sex to conceive. That's not it. It is, it is wiping out a lineage that would have had sin.

• 26:03Lee Strobel?

  Well, there is, yeah, there was no intercourse that they had before for Jesus to be born. So there was no male contribution of a Y chromosome through normal sexual intercourse. And so that, but that isn't what eliminates sin from Jesus. Because Mary was a sinner. The Bible says, she was a sinner. Now Catholics would disagree with that. But I look at the Bible and says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Doesn't say, eh, except for Mary. So, um, yes, I believe Mary was sinner. I believe we're all sinners. Uh, Mary needed forgiveness, just as we all need forgiveness. Um, uh, so what the conception by the Holy Spirit did is it interrupted that process and allowed the baby to be born without sin.

• 26:47Lee Strobel?

  So, you know, Catholics believe in the Immaculate Conception. Um, that doesn't refer to the virgin birth of Jesus. That refers to the conception of Mary. They believe that Mary's mother was, um, gave, was sinless and gave birth to Mary, who was sinless. I just don't see that evidence in Scripture personally. I, I just don't see it. I don't see the evidence of that.

• 27:10Shawn Ryan?

  Well, if Mary was a sinner, then why was she the one that was chosen to give birth to Jesus?

• 27:16Lee Strobel?

  Because even as a sinner, she was apparently a, well, I love Mary. I mean, she, she must have been a remarkable young woman, and young woman, teenager. She must have been a remarkable woman because, uh, uh, the angel says that God has found favor in you. She must have been a woman of great devotion, great faith, great love for God and for people, um, of all humankind. Why did he choose this teenager to be the vessel through whom the God of the universe, Jesus, would be, uh, incarnated into our world? What was it about her? And that's what I love about her, that she was, must have been, in fact, you talk about,

• 28:01Lee Strobel?

  "Who would you like to hang out with in heaven?" I want to meet Mary. Yeah, I want to meet Paul, I want to meet Luke, I want to meet all these people. I want to hang out with Mary and say, "You got to tell me what it was like to be the mother of Jesus, and I want to hear the stories." And I just admire her so. But was she a sinner? Yeah. The Bible says, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." But the Holy Spirit is what interrupted the transmission of that sin to Jesus, and He was, always existed, He is now incarnated into this world as a sinless, fully God and fully man at the same time.

• 28:37Shawn Ryan?

  Now, who, when did Mary find out that she was going to carry the Son of God?

• 28:44Lee Strobel?

  Shortly before she was born. I mean, this angel appears to her and begins to tell her that she is most favored of God, and that, and she's going to give birth to the one who will ultimately rule the entire cosmos. And she said, "How's that possible? I'm a virgin." And he says, basically, "Don't worry about it. The Holy Spirit will overshadow you. The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the one you give birth to will be holy. He will be the Son of God."

• 29:12Shawn Ryan?

  And how did that angel appear?

• 29:13Lee Strobel?

  He, well, we don't have a lot of detail. We just know that he appeared to her. There are a lot of angelic encounters in the pages of Scripture, about 200 of them, and they tend to differ about how the angels, an angel can manifest himself in different ways. And it's always as a male in the Bible, when an angel manifests himself, it's always as a male. But in ancient, I found cases in ancient Jewish literature where angels manifested themselves as females. There's no reason he couldn't. It just happens to be, I think, that in the cases in the Bible, they're manifested as an angel, as a male. And so, I don't, it doesn't describe

• 29:53Lee Strobel?

  him, it doesn't give us a description of what he looked like, but she knew he was an angel. I mean, I don't know if I told you about this last time, but I had an angelic encounter, myself, when I was 12 years old. And...

• 30:09Lee Strobel?

  I knew intuitively this was an angel. Intuitively, and he was talking about heaven at the time, it all kind of fit together. But he didn't have big wings, he didn't have a halo, he didn't have feathers or anything like that. But I knew intuitively that this was, this was a messenger of God. Um, so, we don't have many- Is that scary? ...describing it. Did it scare you? It startled me. It's the only vision or dream I remember from my childhood. I was 12 years old, I'm making a sandwich in my kitchen. And this angel appears. He kind of descends. And I knew intuitively, but I wasn't scared, I, um, because he was talking about heaven. He was extolling heaven. How wonderful heaven is.

• 30:53Lee Strobel?

  And I listened for a minute, and I'm making my sandwich, and I said, "Well, I'm gonna go there someday." So I thought, "Everybody goes to heaven, right?" I said, "I'm gonna go there someday." And he looked at me and he said, "How do you know?" "What do you mean, 'How do I know?'" "I'm a good kid, I get good grades at school, I, I pretty much obey my parents, I'm trying to justify my goodness entering to heaven." And he looked at me and he said, "That doesn't matter." And a chill went down, I'm like, "How can that not matter? All my efforts to be dutiful and compliant as a kid, you say it doesn't matter?" And then he said, "Someday you'll understand." And he disappeared. And I, I was embarrassed by that, I didn't tell many people about it, but 16 years, I became an atheist. Because I thought it was a bad pizza. I had a bad pizza. You know, that was just weird.

• 31:39Lee Strobel?

  But I couldn't get it out of my mind. And so 16 years later, as an atheist, my wife drags me to a church. And I'm sitting in the church, and I hear the gospel for the first time. It's not how good we try to behave that opens the door of heaven. It is a free gift of God's grace that we need to receive in repentance and faith. And my mind flashed back, that's what the angel was telling me 16 years ago. Number one, he told me something I did not know, that salvation is a free gift, you can't earn it. And secondly, he made a prophecy, someday you'll understand. And 16 years later, I understood.

• 32:18Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 32:19Lee Strobel?

  So I was always embarrassed by, and then I'm being ordained, and as a pastor. And when you're ordained, they have all these theologians there questioning you about your theology. I'll make sure you're okay, you know. And I'm thinking to myself, do I tell them about this angelic vision I had? They're gonna think I'm nuts. They're gonna disqualify me from being a pastor, but I can't hide it. I gotta tell them. So I said, guys, I just have to tell you something that happened to me. And it's as real as anything's ever happened in my life. It's the only vision, a dream I remember from my childhood. Let me tell you. I told them the whole story, and they looked at me. You know what they said? Yeah, we hear that kind of thing all the time. He said, that's, that's fine. And it's a sigh of relief.

• 33:00Lee Strobel?

  But I was, you know, like a lot of Americans, I was embarrassed by the supernatural, you know? We think it's a little weird. We, you know.

• 33:08Shawn Ryan?

  So I feel like that's starting to go away.

• 33:11Lee Strobel?

  I, I think it is. I hope it is. You know, I wrote that book, Seeing the Supernatural, to try to document that there is a realm beyond what we can see and touch and put in a test tube. And it's been amazing, the response to that. And I think you're right. I think people are recognizing that what we see and touch, that, that is reality, but there is a reality that goes beyond that.

• 33:32Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. So let's go back to Mary.

• 33:36Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Shawn Ryan?

  Was this, was this a, was this like a traditional nine-month pregnancy? Was it sped up? She carried?

• 33:44Lee Strobel?

  I believe it was.

• 33:44Shawn Ryan?

  It was.

• 33:45Lee Strobel?

  And I'll tell you why. It ties into an interesting thing I learned as I did this investigation.

• 33:52Lee Strobel?

  In earliest Christianity, they did not observe birthdays. They thought it was a waste of time. Why do you, why do you celebrate a birthday? In fact, they would make fun of the Romans. We've found some letters from some Christian leaders making fun of the Romans. Why do you celebrate birthdays? That's silly, you know? They would only celebrate the days of martyrdom. People who died for their faith. They'd remember and celebrate those days, but not birthdays. So, nobody knows when Jesus was born. The Bible doesn't say. And nobody cared back then. Well, over 150 years later, people began to wonder. Hey, when was Jesus born? What was the day that he was born? Well, there was a very strong belief back then, among Christians, a connection between creation and redemption.

• 34:37Lee Strobel?

  A very strong connection. And they believed, it sounds a little weird to us, but they believed the connection between creation and redemption was so strong that the Messiah would have been conceived on the same day of the calendar that he died. So, in the year 200, Tertullian, who was a Christian leader, said, "Well, I can figure out when Jesus died." So, based on the Roman calendar of the day, he determined that Jesus died on March 25th. Therefore, they concluded, he must have been conceived by the Holy Spirit on March 25th. Fast forward nine months, December 25th. He would have been born then, on December 25th.

• 35:22Lee Strobel?

  And many scholars believe that is where they came up with December 25th as a day to celebrate for the birth of Jesus.

• 35:28Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 35:29Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. In fact, very early, there was a, there was a guy named Sextus Julius Africanus.

• 35:33Shawn Ryan?

  He was conceived on March 25th.

• 35:35Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 35:36Shawn Ryan?

  Nine months later is December 25th.

• 35:38Lee Strobel?

  Exactly. Yep.

• 35:40Shawn Ryan?

  That's the first time I've heard that.

• 35:41Lee Strobel?

  Isn't it fascinating? It's fascinating.

• 35:43Shawn Ryan?

  Heard all kinds of wazoo, crazy.

• 35:46Lee Strobel?

  Crazy things.

• 35:46Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe, maybe not crazy.

• 35:48Lee Strobel?

  We don't know, but you know, that, I think that makes a lot of sense based on their beliefs. Now, there was a guy named Julius Sextus Africanus. He was a very early church historian. And in the, in the very early 200s AD, he was writing a chronology about Christian events. And he said in there... That Jesus was conceived on March the 25th. How would he know? How could he have possibly known that the Holy Spirit conceived him? Because Tertullian had determined that he had died on March the 25th. And that's why it goes down in the history of Christianity as being the day of conception. And therefore, nine months later is December the 25th.

• 36:32Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, okay.

• 36:34Lee Strobel?

  So that, I think, is a fascinating... That's one of the things I learned as I did the research for the updated book.

• 36:39Shawn Ryan?

  That is fascinating.

• 36:39Lee Strobel?

  Isn't it?

• 36:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. I've heard a lot of different

• 36:42Lee Strobel?

  Me too.

• 36:42Shawn Ryan?

  Theories.

• 36:43Lee Strobel?

  Me too.

• 36:43Shawn Ryan?

  That one lines up the best.

• 36:47Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, I think so.

• 36:48Shawn Ryan?

  From my opinion.

• 36:48Lee Strobel?

  There were some early Christian thinkers who said, "Well, based on the fact that the shepherds were in the fields with their sheep at night, they said, 'We think Jesus was born on May 20th.'" So, there you go.

• 37:08Shawn Ryan?

  All right.

• 37:08Lee Strobel?

  I mean, that... So on my calendar, I always mark May 20th. I make it kind of a special day because I figure, "Ah, I don't want to miss it, just in case."

• 37:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 37:17Lee Strobel?

  So I've got December 25th, I got May 20th, kind of a backup Christmas.

• 37:23Shawn Ryan?

  So who was... Who was Joseph?

• 37:27Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, Joseph was probably a carpenter. Some think he was a stone cutter or both. And a great man of faith. He was of the line of David. This is important because of the conception of Jesus through the line of David, even though he wasn't the biological father, it was still through this relationship that he was born. Joseph died fairly young. We don't know exactly when, but all of a sudden, he's not there in the Gospels anymore. And here's an interesting...

• 37:57Shawn Ryan?

  How old is Jesus when that's... When he stops appearing in the Gospels?

• 38:01Lee Strobel?

  We don't really know.

• 38:03Shawn Ryan?

  We don't know.

• 38:04Lee Strobel?

  We don't know the exact timing of when he died. Was it before Jesus ministry or shortly thereafter? We don't know. But he disappears. And what's interesting is in Mark, chapter 6, verse 3, Mark, who's writing the perspective of Peter, who is one of the inner circle with Jesus, he refers to Jesus as Mary's son. Well, in first-century Hebrew culture, you would never refer to someone as their mother's son. Even if the father were deceased, you'd always refer to him as Joseph's son. It should have been "Joseph's son, Jesus." But he didn't say that. He says "Mary's son, Jesus." And I think it was Mark's way, kind of a wink, to say,

• 38:49Lee Strobel?

  "Yeah, I know, he wasn't the biological father. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit." Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting little... But anybody who's familiar with Hebrew culture would tell you right off the bat, "Oh, wait a minute, he's saying something there." He would never call her "Mary's son."

• 39:06Shawn Ryan?

  So what was he then? Was he chosen? Was he in some type of a relationship with Mary? What was his role in Jesus's life? Was he a father figure? Was he a protector?

• 39:19Lee Strobel?

  No, he seemed to have come into the scene because of his relationship with Mary. He was going to marry Mary. They were engaged. And they had kind of a ritualistic thing back then, where you have a period of kind of engagement. You're betrothed, they would say. So they weren't...

• 39:34Shawn Ryan?

  Probably arranged marriages.

• 39:36Lee Strobel?

  Probably so, probably so. And Joseph comes from the line of David, which is important because the prophecy was that the Messiah would come from the line of David. And Mary, of course, was a wonderful young woman. And, you know, he... Traditionally, your betrothed gets pregnant? Not from you? You divorce her. Yeah, divorce. I mean, he'd walk away. He doesn't do that. He's reassured by an angel that, no, this is okay. This is the Holy Spirit's doing. And he stays with her. And, you know, so he apparently was, like her, a great person of God, that God trusted to be the conduit

• 40:20Lee Strobel?

  through whom the Son of God would enter into humankind.

• 40:24Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting, interesting. And then, I wanna go, I wanna go through the whole thing. I mean, why, why Bethlehem?

• 40:33Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, Bethlehem's important because it is the town of David. And there was a census that was taking place. And here's another thing that just came out in recent years. You asked me what I learned new.

• 40:46Lee Strobel?

  Um, many scholars criticized Luke, who wrote the Gospel and the Book of Acts, who says, by the way, "I carefully investigated everything, so I could write an orderly account about the certainty of what took place." So Luke is saying, "Hey, I checked all this out. I think he interviewed Mary." Um, if not, he interviewed Johanna and Susanna, who were friends of Mary, who he mentions in his Gospel. So Luke, um, is, uh, writing about this, um, experience. Um, what was, uh, what was it that you wanna know specifically again?

• 41:19Shawn Ryan?

  Why Bethlehem?

• 41:20Lee Strobel?

  Oh, that's right. Okay. So, um, people thought that Luke was wrong in his telling of Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem. And the reason was, Jo-, um, um, Luke said, "There was a census." And he said, "It was the first census when Corinius was governor." Um, and the census said, "You have to go to your hometown." Well, Joseph was of the lineage of David. Bethlehem was his hometown. That was the, the town of David. And so he had to go with Mary to Bethlehem to register for the census. But critics had said, "No, no, no. Luke's got this all wrong."

• 42:03Lee Strobel?

  Because the census took place when Corinius became governor in 6 AD. And yet, King Herod was still alive, according to Luke, at the time of this. Herod died in 4 B.C. So that's a 10-year gap. Herod died, and then 10 years later, Corinius becomes governor, and the census brings Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up. Something's wrong. And people would criticize Luke and said, "You don't know what you're talking about." Well, turns out, as usual, Luke was right in the first place. Because the verse can be translated, the census took place before Corinius was governor. So that would account for an earlier census. There were two censuses.

• 42:48Lee Strobel?

  The one, when he became governor, became famous. It was written by a lot of historians because the Jewish people rebelled against it. And it became, there were a lot of conflicts and so forth, and so that census became famous. But there was apparently an earlier census that didn't get that much, nobody cared about it, because nobody rebelled. And that was the one that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem. But there was a recent discovery by a Swiss scholar, where she found that a guy named Justin Martyr, who was a very early Christian defender of the faith, who said that Corinius was the procurator at the time of the census that brought Mary and Joseph to Bethlehem.

• 43:28Lee Strobel?

  A procurator is someone under the governor who would actually run a census. What's interesting is, in the Gospel of Luke, where it says that Corinius, the census took place when Corinius was governor, the word governor there is not the typical word you would use for governor. It's pretty elastic in the Greek, and it could very well mean procurator. And so what apparently happened is that this guy Corinius, when he was procurator, was assigned to run a census, to have all people returned to their hometown to be counted. And so Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem, and then later, he was elevated to governor. And then he did another census in 6 A.D., and that's the one that got all the publicity.

• 44:13Lee Strobel?

  So they went to Bethlehem because Corinius, the procurator, issued a decree saying that everyone had to go to their hometown. Now you may think that's weird. Everybody's got to go to their hometown to be counted? And yet we have documents from other censuses that say the same thing.

• 44:29Shawn Ryan?

  I guess this is pre-internet.

• 44:31Lee Strobel?

  It was pre-internet, that's right. That's right. So we have, we have a document from the year 108 all the way over in Egypt. And it talks about, hey, you gotta go to your hometown to be counted because, and, and this would make sense that this would be, have a census at that time because Herod was having some conflict with his higher-ups. And, um, it would have been a time, a good time, and Herod was sick. He was having health problems. Um, would have been a good time to get a good census before he passed away. Um, so that does make sense. So that's why they're in Bethlehem. By the way, the birth of Jesus, of the Messiah in Bethlehem, was predicted and prophesied 500 years in advance by the prophet Micah.

• 45:12Lee Strobel?

  In Micah 5, verse 2, talks about the Messiah will be born in this little town, 500 people, uh, called Bethlehem. And sure enough, that's what happened.

• 45:22Shawn Ryan?

  But he was just, it was just for a census?

• 45:25Lee Strobel?

  It was just for a census. And we don't know how long they lingered, how long they stayed. They may have stayed for a couple of months or whatever. And, and, and he may have owned property there. I don't know. But, uh, yeah, that's what brought them down to Bethlehem at that time.

• 45:37Shawn Ryan?

  That is not what I was expecting to hear. I don't know what I was expecting to hear, but it wasn't, it wasn't to, uh, comply with government counting.

• 45:45Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, government counting. Yeah, I know. There you go. Government getting their nose in.

• 45:49Shawn Ryan?

  Wow, that's interesting. That is interesting. So what was the, let's talk about the star.

• 45:57Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. That's a very interesting question. The Bible refers, first of all, to the Magi, who were guided by a star to come worship the child who was born. Who are the Magi? Um, we don't know a lot about them. The Bible doesn't go into a lot of detail. But Magi were not looked well upon by Jewish people of the day. Uh, Daniel, in his book in the Old Testament, trashes them.

• 46:24Shawn Ryan?

  What were they?

• 46:25Lee Strobel?

  They were astrologers. They were divinators. They were magicians. They studied the stars. They were astrologers, that kind of thing. And Daniel called them enchanters. He trashed them, which tells us that, uh, Matthew, in talking about the Magi, he wasn't making this up because you'd never make up the Magi coming to worship because they didn't like the Magi. So the Magi were from the far east. We don't know exactly where, Persia, maybe, probably. And, um, so they come seeking the Christ child. Why? Because they saw a star. Now, what was the star? The word in Greek there for star is flexible.

• 47:09Lee Strobel?

  It could mean any celestial body, could mean a comet, could mean a planetary conjunction, could mean a star. It was a kind of a flexible word. But it was a star that told them that the Hebrew, um, Messiah, so to speak, is coming. The king of the Jews has been born. They see this star. Um, why didn't everybody else see it? Why don't other historians say, oh yeah, there was that great star? Well, there are some theories about that we can get into.

• 47:41Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, if they're astrologers, they're always looking up there and they barely map the sky.

• 47:45Lee Strobel?

  Exactly. They see things that you and I wouldn't notice. Um, um, what could the star have been? Well,

• 47:53Shawn Ryan?

  So like, I got a question. So back then, did they know the difference? I don't think they did, did they? Did they know the difference between stars and planets?

• 48:01Lee Strobel?

  Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, pretty much. And they knew the difference between celestial bodies and how they wrote. Oh, they were very careful to document things like that way. And so, um, they see this star. I, my theory is it was a nova. A nova is a star that burns brighter for a while and then grows dimmer and then brighter for a while. And you and I wouldn't have noticed it, but to them, especially where it was positioned in the sky, would tell them, oh, oh, something big is going on. I think it was a nova. There was a nova that was seen by Chinese astronomers for 70 days in about the year 5 B.C., which would have been before Herod died in 4 B.C. So it could have been that nova.

• 48:46Lee Strobel?

  Others say there was a planetary conjunction. In other words, an unusual conjunction between the planets of Jupiter and Saturn that took place about 7 B.C. in the constellation of Pisces. I wouldn't care about that, but they would have. To them, according to Raymond Brown, great scholar, he said, "To them, that would have sent the signal that a Hebrew king has come into the world, who will ultimately rule everything." So from that conjunction, they read into it astrologically and so forth, and came to that conclusion, I think. We don't know for sure. It wasn't Halley's Comet. Some people used to say it was Halley's Comet.

• 49:32Lee Strobel?

  That was in 12 B.C. That was too early. It could have been the things I mentioned. And so this star causes them to go to Jerusalem, because they're looking for the king of the Jews. Where do you go? You go to Jerusalem. And they said to Herod, "Hey, where is this guy born?" And Herod freaks out. "What do you mean, a king? What do you mean, a king of the Jews is born?" He's freaking out. He brings in his Hebrew scholars, says, "Hey, where's the Messiah gonna be born?" And they say, "Well, it's early. That's easy. Micah 5, verse 2, he's gonna be born in Bethlehem." "Okay, thanks." He gets the Magi. He says, "Hey, guys, go to Bethlehem." So the Magis head out for Bethlehem. And as they do, they see that star again.

• 50:16Lee Strobel?

  My theory is it's the same supernova that God had supernaturally moved. I wouldn't have noticed another star in the sky. You wouldn't have noticed it. They noticed it. And it guided them to the place where it says, not the baby was, says where the child was. Because we don't know how long after the birth this was. Now, Jesus is being referred to as a child, not just a baby.

• 50:38Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, okay. So maybe this wasn't the night of the birth.

• 50:41Lee Strobel?

  No, it wasn't the night of the birth.

• 50:42Shawn Ryan?

  For sure, it was not the night of the birth.

• 50:44Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, it was later. So that is apparently... Now, here's the significance of the Magi, theologically.

• 50:53Lee Strobel?

  The Magi brought gifts that were, in the Old Testament, it mentions certain gifts that were fit for a king. Three of those gifts, one was gold, referring to royal nature. One was frankincense, a spice that referred to a priestly function. And interestingly, the third one was myrrh. Myrrh was used in embalming dead people in those days. To me, that's foreshadowing, why was Jesus born into this world? To die. He was to ultimately give up his life to pay for the sins of humankind. And I think the gift of the myrrh is a way of almost saying,

• 51:38Lee Strobel?

  yeah, this is for his ultimate death. Now, it's interesting, on the cross, when Jesus is being crucified, they offered him a mixture of water and myrrh to ease the pain, and he refused it. So, they give these gifts, they may have been emissaries of a king. That's why they came, maybe a king sent them. But here's the theological significance, and I think, this is, when I think about it, this is what blows my mind. For Jewish people of the first century, they thought the Messiah would be a political savior. He was gonna overthrow the Romans. He was gonna elevate the Jewish nation above every other nation. He was gonna create this Jewish culture that dominates and that rules the world and so forth.

• 52:23Lee Strobel?

  He was gonna be the Messiah, their answer to all that. But here come the Magi, pagans, Gentiles. They come to do what? To worship the baby Jesus, the child Jesus. That theological significance is, Jesus was not, he is for the Jewish people. But it goes beyond that. That Jesus is the Savior, not just of the Jewish people, but for all humankind. Even these Magi, who were Gentiles, who were pagans, even they came. Sinners who came to worship. They were included in God's plan of redemption.

• 53:07Lee Strobel?

  That, to me, was a real eye-opening thing of these Magi showing up to pay homage to Jesus.

• 53:17Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Lee, let's take a quick break. Yeah.

• 53:25Shawn Ryan?

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• 54:07Shawn Ryan?

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• 54:55Shawn Ryan?

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• 55:38Shawn Ryan?

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• 55:52Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Lee, we're back from the break.

• 55:53Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Shawn Ryan?

  And while we were on the break, you had mentioned that Mary and Joseph took the gold and sold it.

• 56:00Lee Strobel?

  They probably did. A lot of scholars believe. Well, they had to finance their trip to Egypt. So because they were avoiding Herod, who wanted to kill all the children who may be the threatening Messiah. And so how do they finance their trip to Egypt? Some scholars believe they took the gold that they got and fortuitously sold that so they could go off and protect themselves from the evil intentions of King Herod.

• 56:27Shawn Ryan?

  So do we know, I mean, earlier you had mentioned that the, excuse me, the three wise men.

• 56:35Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 56:36Shawn Ryan?

  You know, that they made, it didn't look like that they were there the day of the birth.

• 56:41Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, right.

• 56:42Shawn Ryan?

  And so how, how old, is there any, any, do you have any thoughts on how old Jesus was when they fled to Egypt?

• 56:50Lee Strobel?

  Based on when that star first appeared, Herod said, I'm going to kill all the male children in Bethlehem up to the age of, what was it, two, I think it was. So that gives some idea of the timeframe. Now, one of the criticisms you hear from skeptics is to say, well, wait a minute. You're telling me that King Herod goes in and kills all these kids under the age of two in Bethlehem and nobody else in history reports it? I mean, shouldn't Josephus, the historian from the first century, have said something about this? And the answer is probably not.

• 57:32Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, if the town of 500.

• 57:34Lee Strobel?

  It's a town of 500. So how many kids under two would there be? Maybe a dozen or so? And it was in the middle of no, I mean, it was not on a major highway. It wasn't a major city. Um, uh, and Herod was a bloodthirsty king. He killed members of his own family. He was killing everybody. And so it wouldn't be news that he decided to kill a bunch of babies. Um, and it took time for news to get out back then. Um, there's no CNN. There was no Fox News, you know, things. There's no satellite coverage. And so this took place in an obscure little town and, and yeah, a couple of dozen kids were, were killed. Um, which was, by the way, prophesied in the Old Testament, um, as well. So this is another fulfillment of prophecy.

• 58:19Shawn Ryan?

  What, what, how?

• 58:21Lee Strobel?

  Um, there was, there was a problem. I'm trying to think of the exact reference, but there was a prophet about the weeping that was taking, that would take place. And, um, the context suggests that this is referring to the murder of the children in Bethlehem. So this was, there's, there's so many ancient prophecies about the coming of the Messiah. Uh, so many that Jesus could not have intentionally fulfilled them. In other words, one of the prophecies is that Jesus rode a donkey into Jerusalem before he was put to death. Well, so what? He could choose to do that. Okay. I know it's a prophecy about that. Go find me a donkey and I'll write it in. They'll think I'm the Messiah, you know? He could have arranged, but there are things he could not have arranged.

• 59:02Lee Strobel?

  His lineage, he couldn't arrange. He couldn't have arranged that, um, uh, the soldiers gamble for his clothes when he was on the cross. He couldn't have arranged for a lot of things like where he was born. Um, um, Daniel even prophesied the timeframe in which he was born. There are all these things that he couldn't have arranged. So there was a, a scholar by the name of Dr. Peter Stoner. A mathematician at a college in California and he said, wait a minute. Some of these prophecies can be mathematically quantifiable. They're quantifiable. For instance, Micah 5 verse 2 says, "The Messiah would be born in Bethlehem." How many people have been born in Bethlehem? We can calculate that. So let's get the ones that can be calculated and run the numbers. You know what they found?

• 59:47Lee Strobel?

  The odds of any human being coincidentally fulfilling just 48 of these ancient prophecies would be one chance in a trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion, trillion. Wow. It ain't gonna happen. You get the numbers like that and you can confidently say, "That ain't gonna happen by chance." And yet, Jesus did it in fulfillment to prove He is who He claimed to be, the unique, the Messiah, the unique Son of God. Wow. So there's these prophecies that point to Him. Where He was born, that's how they knew it was gonna be in Bethlehem. How many prophecies are there? Gosh, it depends on how you look at them.

• 1:00:31Lee Strobel?

  Some are more foreshadowings, a little less explicit. Some are very explicit. You know, for instance, Isaiah 53 in the Old Testament, this Hebrew writing, written hundreds of years before Jesus was born. If you, if I were to read that to you right now and say, "Who does this describe?" You would say, "Uh, Jesus." It was written hundreds of years before He was born. It is a picture of the suffering Messiah. And it just, it's so powerful that many Jewish people become Christians just reading this prophecy in Isaiah. I have a friend named Louis Lepides.

• 1:01:10Lee Strobel?

  He was a Vietnam veteran, came back from Nam, walking down the sidewalk in Hollywood, and he runs into a street preacher, "Yeah, Jesus, Jesus." And, "I don't believe in that, I'm Jewish. I don't believe in Jesus." And he said, "Oh, why don't you read this?" And he reads it, and he realizes, this, from Isaiah, the Jewish prophet Isaiah, hundreds of years in advance, this is Jesus. But you know what he said? "That can't be true. The Christians must have changed it."

• 1:01:42Lee Strobel?

  So he called up a relative, he says, "Send me the original Hebrew scripture so I can compare." So he gets them, he looks at, "It's the same." And he becomes not only a Christian, he becomes a pastor in Thousand Oaks, California. And what was that? What was? It's Isaiah 53. It's a description of, of the, the suffering Messiah, the, the death and resurrection of Jesus. It, it's, it's absolutely flabbergasting. I don't know how anybody can read it and not conclude, "Oh, that's referring to Jesus." Uh, so I don't want to read it? Could if you got a Bible handy. I got a couple hundred of them here.

• 1:02:17Shawn Ryan?

  Let me, let me just one second.

• 1:02:18Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. Yeah, you know what? I wonder if I have it in here.

• 1:02:23Shawn Ryan?

  All right, here we go.

• 1:02:28Lee Strobel?

  Oh, King James, okay, that's good. Hold on, hold on a second.

• 1:02:30Shawn Ryan?

  Is that gonna work?

• 1:02:31Lee Strobel?

  That would work, yeah. Hold on, let me check. I may just have it in here. Yeah, here, I got it right here. I got it in the book. Yep. I have a chapter on the fulfillment of prophecies in the book. So, now I don't have my reading glasses, so I'm gonna look like a dork reading this, but, um, here's Isaiah 53, so ask- You want me to read it? No, I'll read it. Who, you ask yourself, "Who does this sound like?" "He was despised and rejected by mankind, a man of suffering and familiar with pain. Like one from whom people hid their faces, he was despised, and we held him in low esteem. Surely he took up, he took up our pain and bore our suffering. Yet we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted.

• 1:03:15Lee Strobel?

  But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities. The punishment that brought us peace was on him, and by his wounds we are healed. We, like all sheep, have gone astray. Each of us has turned to our own way. And the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth. He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before his shears is silent."

• 1:03:48Lee Strobel?

  So he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment, he was taken away. Yet who of his generation protested? For he was cut off from the land of the living. For the transgression of my people, he was punished. He was assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death. Though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer. And though the Lord makes his life an offering, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, in others who continue to live on.

• 1:04:32Lee Strobel?

  And the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life. He will come back and be satisfied. By his knowledge, my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. He will die for our sins. For he bore the sins of many and made intercession for the transgressors. Wow. So there's, there's the prediction that the Messiah would suffer and die for our sins. He would be afflicted by God. He would pay the penalty we deserve for the sins we've committed. And yet he would be resurrected. He would continue to live on. He was assigned a grave, but he continued to live on. He was resurrected from the dead. He conquered death.

• 1:05:17Lee Strobel?

  That passage from Isaiah has led many Jewish people to faith in Jesus. And like my friend Louis Lepides. So, you know, that's just one of many predictions, prophecies, made hundreds of years in advance of the birth of Jesus on Christmas. Wow.

• 1:05:38Shawn Ryan?

  That's really

• 1:05:39Lee Strobel?

  Isn't it cool?

• 1:05:39Shawn Ryan?

  Yes, it is.

• 1:05:40Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, it's a picture. It's a... Who would have thought that the Messiah would suffer? Really? I mean, that didn't make sense back then. Why? He was paying our transgressions. He was paying for our sin. Oh, really? That's what the entire Jewish sacrificial system had foretold of the sacrificing of animals for sin. It was a foreshadowing that ultimately the Son of God, who lived a perfect life, who was fully God and fully man, would pay the penalty of death so that our sins would be paid for and He could offer forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of His grace.

• 1:06:21Lee Strobel?

  The thing about Christmas is it makes no sense without Easter. You know, Jesus did not just come into the world so we could show us how to live a good life. He did that. If you read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes, it's these... His teachings of how to live are brilliant and wonderful. We can't live up to that. We can emulate it as best we can. We all fall short. His mission was not to be born only and live. It was to die, to pay the penalty that we deserve. And that's what makes Christmas... You know, the best stories are the ones that turn out to be true. And so, because it's true, that gives it just an awe-inspiring nature.

• 1:07:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. How many... Who had knowledge of Jesus's coming, other than Mary and Joseph?

• 1:07:16Lee Strobel?

  Oh, that it would be the Messiah. And well, Elizabeth, the cousin, probably understood because she gave birth to John the Baptist. And John knew from the outset that this was going to be who Jesus was. He, when he heard the news about the coming Messiah, the pregnancy of Mary, he jumped in his mother's womb. So that was the first person to recognize Jesus as being the Messiah was John, still in the womb of his mother.

• 1:07:42Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, what?

• 1:07:43Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:43Shawn Ryan?

  How do you...

• 1:07:44Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. Mary, Elizabeth...

• 1:07:48Lee Strobel?

  finds out about the pregnancy of Mary, um, that she's carrying the Messiah and uh, she's carrying John the Baptist and he leaps in her womb for joy at this news that the Messiah is coming. So, the first person ever to recognize Jesus being the Messiah was an unborn child, uh, by the name of John.

• 1:08:10Shawn Ryan?

  Wow. And so, and that, but that's it. So, wasn't Rod or any of these other?

• 1:08:16Lee Strobel?

  I, Joseph knew because an angel appeared to Joseph and told him what was going on. So, Joseph knew. Now, who they told and who they led into this, I don't know. Um, but, um, it was, uh, uh, there, there was a probably small group that understood what was going on.

• 1:08:33Shawn Ryan?

  Now, how, how fast do you think the word spread?

• 1:08:35Lee Strobel?

  Oh, it, it spread fast. When the, uh, when the shepherds came in, it says they ran into Bethlehem. When the angel told them that the Messiah, uh, is, is now born in the city of David and they, it says they ran into town to check it out themselves and they checked it out themselves. They found him and so forth. And it says they told, they, they were telling everybody. Um, that, hey, guess what? Uh, so there was a, the news started. Now, we didn't have the internet, of course, back then. So, news, news spread a little slower than it does today, but, um, but it, the news was getting out.

• 1:09:09Shawn Ryan?

  So, they, so it was, it was, it was them. It was the, it was the?

• 1:09:13Lee Strobel?

  The shepherds?

• 1:09:13Shawn Ryan?

  It was the shepherds that spread the word.

• 1:09:15Lee Strobel?

  They were, they were starting to tell people, yeah.

• 1:09:17Shawn Ryan?

  But there was no, there was no, nobody knew anything other than what the shepherds were spreading?

• 1:09:24Lee Strobel?

  Probably not. I'm thinking back. I mean, um, certainly, um, when King Herod was told by his advisors that the child would be born in Bethlehem, that, that news began to spread around Jerusalem. Because it upset Herod. Who told him that? His advisors, his Jewish advisors. When the Magi came and said, "Hey, we're looking for the king of the Jews. Um, where is he?" And they figured maybe Jerusalem, right? And, uh, Herod says, "Uh, hold on a minute." Gets his Jewish advisor, says, "Where's the king of Jews gonna be born?" Bethlehem, okay. And then he's the one that told the Magi, "Go to Bethlehem." Uh, and they saw the star that confirmed it. But, uh...

• 1:10:08Lee Strobel?

  Now, how does the, how does, how do the advisors know? Is this from... Because of Micah chapter two, uh, five, verse two. Really? Yeah, the, the ancient prophecy. They studied these prophecies. They knew them. They, they, they lived by them. They were, and they were living in anticipation that the Messiah would come. Um, Daniel, the prophet Daniel. Now, so, so did the advisors think this was a bad thing? No, they would, they probably would have been excited. I'm guessing, uh, that, um, you know, th- that these Magi are coming and looking for... Yeah, uh, because it's like, they were Jewish. So, the only, the only hatred for Jesus that Herod had is for a power struggle? It was a power struggle. Herod was afraid that he would grow up and usurp his throne. Humans addicted to power. That's right.

• 1:10:51Lee Strobel?

  And Herod was a, he was crazy. And, um, and ill at the time. He was not doing well. Didn't have a long time to live. He had killed relatives. He'd kill all kinds of people. He's a ruthless, bloodthirsty person. And, um, um, you know, he had, I mean, just to order the destruction of these children. No problem. Get rid of them that way. Um, but an angel had warned Mary and Joseph, "Hey, don't go back to Nazareth yet. Go to E- Egypt and hang out for a while till things settle down with Herod." And that's what they did. Where was Jesus throughout his childhood? I mean, there's, there, we, we don't know anything. We don't know a lot. We don't know a lot.

• 1:11:34Lee Strobel?

  There's some apocryphal literature that suggests that he went off to India. There's some stories about him being in India. They're, they're not well-supported. We don't know. And I think the reason we don't know is, um, it, it's not really ultimately important. Um, it says he continued to grow in wisdom. Um, so we know that that took place. Um, we know his father died at some point before he got too old. And he was probably very busy, being a carpenter himself, no doubt. Um, but, um, I think... Because the scriptures don't really go into that details probably because, yeah, surely not that important what he was doing. But people have tried to fill it in through the years, you know? So you see some of these stories that will pop up in what's called non-canonical.

• 1:12:19Lee Strobel?

  In other words, it's not

• 1:12:20Shawn Ryan?

  Very far-fetched.

• 1:12:20Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, kind of far-fetched stuff. There's one far-fetched story. You know, one of the stories about Christmas is that Mary was on the verge of giving birth as she's arriving in Bethlehem. We don't know that. Luke says, "While they were in Bethlehem, the baby was born." Doesn't say five minutes, doesn't say five days, doesn't say five weeks or five months. We don't know how long she was there.

• 1:12:42Shawn Ryan?

  So it wasn't a big rush to get to Bethlehem for the birth?

• 1:12:45Lee Strobel?

  We don't, we don't know. There was a book of fiction that was written in 200 AD. So that's like, you know, a couple hundred years later, that has no connection to the eyewitnesses. And in that book of fiction, it was called the Protoevangelism, Protoevangelium of James. Had no connection to James or anybody. It was just fictional. And in that account, it says that Mary and Joseph got within three miles of Bethlehem, and the baby was coming. So they went into a cave and gave birth in a cave among the animals in the cave. That's where this idea that some think about giving birth in a cave, that's where that came from. It's a book of fiction. It, it has no historical validity.

• 1:13:26Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:13:26Lee Strobel?

  So that didn't really happen. But the biggest mistake in terms of historical understanding of Christmas boils down to one word. One word in the Greek and how it gets translated or mistranslated. Here's the typical story we hear at Christmas.

• 1:13:46Lee Strobel?

  Mary and Joseph, because of the census, had to go to Bethlehem to be counted in the census because he was of the house of David. So they go to Bethlehem and Mary's pregnant and she's getting close to giving birth. They knock on the door of an inn or a lodge and the innkeeper opens the door and says, "Hey, no room, sorry." Just close the door. What are they gonna do? They go off into a stable and they give birth among the animals in the stable. And then she lays the baby in the clean hay of a manger or a feeding trough. That's the typical story you hear. It all depends on one word. And the Greek word is "katalima."

• 1:14:28Lee Strobel?

  And how is that trans- because here's what Luke says, and this is how all this comes about. Luke says, "When the baby was born, he was put into a manger because there was no room for them in the katalima."

• 1:14:46Lee Strobel?

  King James Version translated that word as "in." Other, some other early writings translate as "in," but that's probably not the correct translation.

• 1:14:57Lee Strobel?

  Luke only uses the word "katalima" one other time in his gospel. When he does, it's referring to a room in a residence. When he was referring to an inn or a lodge, he used another word, "pandohayon." He doesn't use that here, he uses "katalima."

• 1:15:15Lee Strobel?

  Well, what was a katalima? Well, you have to understand what a house looked like in the first-century Jewish culture in Bethlehem. A house was one big room divided into two parts. There was the bigger part, and that was the living area, where the family would live, and sleep, and cook, and so forth. And there were a couple of steps down into a smaller area, and that's where the animals were brought at night. Because the animals were like pets. I mean, you ever see a baby sheep, little lamb? They're cute, you know, and the kids love to pet them. Even baby goats are cute. So, they would come in and they would stay inside during the night. There was a manger there with hay in it.

• 1:15:59Lee Strobel?

  But sometimes they would walk up the few steps into the living area, and they were like pets. So they'd pet them, and so they had a manger in the living area too, so that if the animals came up, they could eat. That's what a typical house looked like. The wealthier people had a katalima. That was a guest room. That was an add-on, another room. They had a separate entrance. And so they had, in effect, two rooms, the katalima, the guest room, as well as the living area and the animal area. What apparently happened is that Mary and Joseph were coming into Bethlehem, and they went to a home of a relative and knocked on the door, say, "Hey, we're here for the census."

• 1:16:43Lee Strobel?

  And the person said, "Oh, yeah, we got a lot of people coming for the census. Everything's crowded. We don't have room in the guest room, the catalema. I'm sorry, there's no room." So she could come and you could stay in the family area, the living area. And so Mary and Joseph probably lived and stayed in that living area of the home until the baby was born. And you know what? Some of the animals may have heard the commotion and come up the stairs to see what was going on. They were proud, they may have witnessed it. And then after Joseph, or Jesus was born, she placed him in the clean hay of the feeding trough, the manger there in the living area. That's probably what took place. Interestingly, in the year 1395, so this predates the King James Version.

• 1:17:28Lee Strobel?

  In the year 1395, John Whitcliff did his translation into English of the Bible, the New Testament. And the word he chose for catalema was guest room, was room. Today, the most popular translation of the Bible into English in America is the NIV, the New International Version. If you look it up in there, it doesn't say there was an in. There's no in, there's no innkeeper. It's the guest room. I think that's what really happened. So it kind of messes a little bit with our image of Christmas, but that's probably a more accurate translation of what's going on. So it does kind of change things a bit.

• 1:18:11Lee Strobel?

  But I think linguistically, it makes more sense. And the scholars who I talk to think, no, that's probably the better translation of that word. And it's really just one word. There was no room for them at the catalema. How do you, oh, guest room, oh, now it just changes everything. And I think with an understanding of what a house looked like back then, it makes even more sense than that. By the way, we don't know that there were any inns in Bethlehem. As we said, it was a small town, 500 people. It was not on major highways. There may or may not have been an inn there, but here's the other thing. In first-century Jewish culture, it would have been unthinkable for an innkeeper to turn away a pregnant Jewish woman. You could not do that.

• 1:18:57Lee Strobel?

  You would be ostracized by the community. Because hospitality was a huge value in those days. If an innkeeper turned away a pregnant Jewish woman, he'd be run out of town on a rail. He'd be out of business. You just could not do that. So that's another reason why I think that's not the right translation. I think the right one is the one the NIV uses, which is guest room.

• 1:19:19Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Wow.

• 1:19:22Lee Strobel?

  Isn't that fascinating?

• 1:19:23Shawn Ryan?

  It is, I mean, how, how... What does it feel like to...

• 1:19:31Lee Strobel?

  To kind of come on this stuff? I know, it's so...

• 1:19:34Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it's...

• 1:19:34Lee Strobel?

  This is, this is what, you know, I'm a journalist, I'm trained in law, but I'm trained in journalism, I investigate things, and so... And you're, you investigate things, and you know what the feeling is like when you probe something, and you find out something that makes you go, "Oh, my good, this changes everything." "This changes the narrative of how Christmas took place." That one word, "Oh, my goodness." I just love that. I love how God took my sinful, immoral, profane, narcissistic life, and brought me to faith in Him, and transformed my soul, and changed my character, and changed my values, and changed my philosophy. But He also said, "I'm gonna keep

• 1:20:20Lee Strobel?

  your journalistic curiosity." You use it for evil sometimes when you were a journalist. I mean, I hurt some people intentionally with my articles. I'm gonna redeem that, and I'm gonna use it for good. And now, I get to, I get to travel and interview some of the greatest scholars in the world. And these scholars are so brilliant, that nobody understands them. And so, I sit there and I interview them sometimes for two days. And I force them to explain things so I can understand it. Because I figure if I can understand it, anybody can understand it. And then, I'm able to put it into a narrative that everybody can get.

• 1:21:02Lee Strobel?

  So, God said, "I'm gonna take what you use for evil, in many cases, and I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep that skill in you. That's who you are. You're a journalist, you're an investigator. I'm gonna use that for my purposes." And so, virtually all my books, that's the format. It ain't me, the world's leading scholar. I just go find the world's leading scholar. I do it like you do. You find people and you bring them in. I go to them, and, and I question. I remember some of my transcripts of my interviews with these experts are 50,000 words.

• 1:21:35Shawn Ryan?

  Whoa.

• 1:21:35Lee Strobel?

  That's a book. That's twice, more than twice the size of this book. Because I wanna spend time to really get what they're talking about. Because they write on this incredible elevated level. And so few of them can put the cookies on the bottom shelf, so we all can enjoy them. Um, so anyway, it's that, that sense of discovery, as you, that you go through as well, when you're interviewing someone, you go, "I never thought of that. I never knew that before." I get to do that all the time. I, I love that.

• 1:22:06Shawn Ryan?

  What you're kicking over is a lot bigger than the, you know, than the, than the, than the timely bullshit news that I'm kicking over. But, uh, but, man, that has gotta feel like, just incredible.

• 1:22:20Lee Strobel?

  It's awesome. It's awesome. And things, you know, things I always wondered about. Um, like, here's one I always wondered about. Is it okay, I hear people criticize, Christians, I hear Christians criticize people because they would spell Christmas X-M-A-S.

• 1:22:36Lee Strobel?

  Say, "Oh, you're taking Christ out of Christmas." What do you think of that? Well, there may be people, that's their intention, but that's not what they're doing. And here's the reason. Again, this is something I learned. I go, "Oh, my goodness, this explains it." Um, in the earliest days of Christianity, they were being oppressed. And they would often abbreviate Christos, which was the Greek word for Christ, the Messiah, the Savior. So, the Greek word, Christos, um, began with an X. It was called Kai in the Greek. So, the first letter of Christ was an X, meaning pronounced Kai. The second word was a P, and it was pronounced Ro.

• 1:23:19Lee Strobel?

  So, the first two letters of Christ, or the Messiah, the Savior, Christ, in the Greek, was called Cairo. That became a standard abbreviation in the early days of Christianity. So, in other words, the Christians were gonna get together at a certain location. They didn't want the Romans to know that they were gonna get together, because they're gonna be persecuted. So, they would leave in the sand or something, they'd leave a, an X and a P. No kidding? So, it was code? Yeah, that's right. A code. And, and the Romans wouldn't know what that was. But they knew that Cairo meant, it meant Christ. So, in the year 1025, a scribe was writing some Christian materials on parchment.

• 1:24:04Lee Strobel?

  Well, parchment is very expensive. So, he was trying to save some parchment. So, as he's writing it, he kissed the word Christmas. And he's thinking, "That's gonna take up a lot of space." So, he abbreviates it Cairo, X P M A S. To save space, to save parchment. And it caught on, and it got abbreviated later even further to just X M A S. So, the X in X M A S refers to Christ. You're not taking him out of Christmas if you just put X M A S. You're just abbreviating in a way that even the earliest Christians did. In fact- That's actually kinda cool. It is kinda cool. And get this, get this. Remember, when was it? I don't know the year.

• 1:24:48Lee Strobel?

  But remember when all the immigrants were coming over to, was it Ellis Island in New York? They were immigrating into New York in the, uh, early, uh, days. And, uh, many Jewish people were immigrating into the United States. And they were illiterate, they couldn't read. And so, the immigration officials would say, "Okay, sign your name." Here. They couldn't sign their names. They couldn't spell. They couldn't read. So the immigration official said, we'll just put an X. Because we sometimes put an X. They wouldn't do it. Because these Jewish people knew, no, no, no, no, that X means Christ. They put an O. To contrast with the X.

• 1:25:26Shawn Ryan?

  No way.

• 1:25:26Lee Strobel?

  Yes. So they said, I'm not putting. So they even knew back then, this was when, in 1920s, whenever that was, that big influx of immigrants, um, they even knew, don't put an X. Because that's saying Christ. I'm gonna put an O instead. That was a Yiddish, referring to a Yiddish, uh, word. So they were aware of this. So I think a lot of people, now, there may be atheists who are trying to take Christ out of Christmas. Who you do that with ill intent.

• 1:25:52Shawn Ryan?

  I've always heard, don't write it like that.

• 1:25:54Lee Strobel?

  I have too.

• 1:25:55Shawn Ryan?

  The way I was raised.

• 1:25:56Lee Strobel?

  I have too. And I think that's because people said, you're taking Christ. No, you're not really. You're just abbreviating. In fact, the word Christmas is an abbreviation itself, from Christ's Mass. So Christmas itself is an abbreviation. So it's okay to abbreviate it X M A S.

• 1:26:12Shawn Ryan?

  I like that. I feel like that's a little, a little, uh, insert you should put on your Christmas card.

• 1:26:19Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, yeah, there you go. There you go.

• 1:26:24Shawn Ryan?

  Man, man. I'm curious, you know, I've talked to, I told you, I don't know if you remember, I grew up Catholic. I still, still go back and forth.

• 1:26:34Lee Strobel?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:26:34Shawn Ryan?

  I like both. But, you know, one thing that I find interesting, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts, is when I, when I'm talking to, uh, Christians, non-denominational Christians, um, Christians like yourself.

• 1:26:48Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Shawn Ryan?

  At least I think you think this.

• 1:26:52Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Shawn Ryan?

  The gates of heaven are wide open.

• 1:26:55Lee Strobel?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:56Shawn Ryan?

  When I talk to people that I respect in the Catholic Church.

• 1:27:00Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:01Shawn Ryan?

  The gates are about this narrow.

• 1:27:03Lee Strobel?

  Hmm.

• 1:27:04Shawn Ryan?

  What are, what are your thoughts on that?

• 1:27:05Lee Strobel?

  Well, Jesus said, the, the way is narrow. He did, he did say that. Yeah. He said, wide is the road that leads to destruction, but narrow is the gate that leads to life. It is narrow because the way I see that, understanding that is, it's narrow because it's only through Him. It's narrow because he is the only passage to heaven. That redemption only comes through Jesus Christ. I think that's what he meant by saying the road is narrow. You have to follow him. So, how many people will actually end up in heaven? I don't know. I think it's- Is it all the believers? Yes, I think it's anyone who puts their trust in Christ. Anybody who, we're all sinners, the Bible says.

• 1:27:47Lee Strobel?

  The way I look at it is, you know, the Bible's 80,000 words, and you can summarize the whole Bible in 21 words. One verse, Romans 6:23. "For the wages of sin is death." But, the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord. The wages of sin is death. In other words, what we deserve, what we've earned, the consequences of living a life apart from God, denying Him, violating His laws and His morality, the consequence of that is death, which means eternal separation from God. That's what hell is. But, the verse says, "The free gift," and it's interesting, most translations don't say free gift. They should say gift, because all gifts are free. But the translation I like includes the word free

• 1:28:32Lee Strobel?

  to emphasize, "The free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord." In other words, Jesus, fully God and fully man, lived the perfect life. He dies on a cross to pay the penalty we deserve for the sins that we've committed. And He offers forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift of His grace. And anyone who receives that gift becomes a child of God, and the doors of heaven will be flung open for them. So I think the narrowness mainly refers to narrow in the sense it only comes through one person. It only comes through Jesus. Nobody else can atone for our sins. We're either gonna pay for our sins.

• 1:29:16Lee Strobel?

  Somebody's gonna pay for our sins. It's either gonna be us, and we're gonna spend eternity separated from God, because only perfect people end up in heaven. We're not perfect. So, we got a problem if we're gonna pay for our sins ourselves. We're gonna be eternally separated from God. That's what hell is. Or- We can receive this free gift of redemption, this free gift of God paying for our sins through Jesus Christ and offering it as a free gift of His grace. So those are the kind of the two choices. How many people through history will have received that gift and will spend eternity in heaven, we'll find out someday. But I think that narrowness refers to the way is narrow because it goes through one person. It's interesting because if you believe it doesn't really seem that narrow.

• 1:30:01Lee Strobel?

  Well, yeah, except it's believe in what? Believe in Jesus. That's that one person. That's what I think makes it narrow. It's not like you can have a belief, I can believe in Krishna, I can believe in Allah, I can believe in all these different things. No, no, no. It is only through Jesus Christ. And it's very interesting, you know, when I was an atheist and I did my investigation into Christianity, I also investigated other religions too. And I investigated Islam and I read the Quran. And what struck me about the Quran is how it specifically denies the exact things you need to believe according to Christianity to be saved.

• 1:30:42Lee Strobel?

  Number one, it says in the Quran in Surah 4, verse 157, that Jesus didn't die on the cross. Well, if he didn't die on the cross, there's no atonement for sin and there's no resurrection and conquering of death. Number two, the Quran says that God doesn't have a son, specifically says that. Number three, the Quran says, no one can bear the sins of another. Well, that's what Jesus did on the cross. The three very things I need to believe to be a Christian is that Jesus is the unique Son of God, that He went to the cross, He paid the penalty we deserve for the sins we committed, He carried our sins, He paid for our sins, and He was resurrected from the

• 1:31:24Lee Strobel?

  dead, conquering death and proving He is who we claim to be, the unique Son of God. So I'm, here I am reading the Quran and I'm reading the Bible and I'm saying, okay.

• 1:31:36Lee Strobel?

  Either they're both false, or one of them is true. They cannot both be true at the same time. They can't be. If the Quran is true, the Bible is false. If the Bible is true, the Quran is false. They can't both be true. So I had to look which one. And that's what led me to conclude that I can trust the Bible because of largely the resurrection of Jesus, the historical data that established that he was born on Christmas, he lived the perfect life, he died, and then the incredible evidence he was resurrected from the dead to prove that he is who he claimed to be, the unique Son of God. So, I mean, I've got a good friend, whose name you would know, who is a Muslim.

• 1:32:20Lee Strobel?

  And he came over to my house for dinner. And because his girlfriend had become a Christian, she read my book, The Case for Christ, and she became a Christian. So he was wanting some answers. So he comes over to my house for dinner, and we're cooking steaks. Did this guy write a book? He's written six books. Yeah. I don't know if he would mind if I said his name or not. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, the number one scorer in the NBA until what's-his-name from the Lakers succeeded him as the number one scorer. But Kareem became a friend of mine. His girlfriend became a Christian through my book, Case for Christ, and invited me over to their place. I spent many hours with Kareem. Great, great guy. Loved him. Brilliant guy.

• 1:33:05Lee Strobel?

  Very smart. He's written several books. And he came over to my house for dinner. And at one point, I said to him, "Let's set aside religion. And let's just look at the evidence from history for the resurrection of Jesus." And I said, and I went through the evidence I've got, and it's substantial, right there from the first century. And I said, "Now, what do Muslims have? They've got someone who says that an angel told him in a cave 600 years later that that isn't true." That Jesus didn't really die on the cross. And yet, I've got all this data saying he did. I said, "Set aside religion. Where does the evidence point?"

• 1:33:51Lee Strobel?

  And he was very thoughtful about it, and he said, "You know, I choose to believe the Quran." Okay, I mean, that's, you're free to do that, but...

• 1:34:00Lee Strobel?

  I couldn't do it. I was following where I think the evidence of history most persuasively points. And, um, you know, I pray for Kareem, he's a great, great guy. I introduced him to Mel Gibson, uh, back when, uh, The Passion of the Christ was gonna come out. And I have a picture in a hallway of Kareem, who's like 7'2". I mean, you can't believe how tall they are, because you see him playing basketball, and they all are tall, right? Yeah. No, no, no, you get him in a room? Oh my goodness, so he's like 7'2", and, and, uh, Mel Gibson's about, I don't know, 5'8", maybe? 5'7"? He's not tall at all. And I have this picture, and Kareem is bent down, trying to hear, and, and, and Mel is looking up, trying to talk to Kareem.

• 1:34:44Lee Strobel?

  It's a hilarious picture. But, um... Did he convert? No, Kareem is still on a journey. I think he's still asking questions. I think he's doing what a smart person does. Ask questions. He was willing to come to my home and listen to me, and we, I came to his place, and we talked for all afternoon about why I believe Christianity is true, and he told me why he believes Islam is true. And we, we didn't debate, but we had a friendly conversation, and that's good, that's, that's healthy. Yeah. And, um, I believe he's still on a journey.

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• 1:36:04Shawn Ryan?

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• 1:36:13Shawn Ryan?

  What are, what are some of the major questions that somebody that's on the fence of, of, you know, Islam or Christianity?

• 1:36:22Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  The guy that I was, it's not Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. I don't know. I can't remember his name. He's basically a book where he's talking about the Quran or the Bible. Sold a ton of copies. I can't remember that it just popped up.

• 1:36:33Lee Strobel?

  Okay.

• 1:36:33Shawn Ryan?

  And I was like, this looks like an interesting interview.

• 1:36:36Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. I had a good friend named, um, um, Nabeel Qureshi, who is a Muslim, who did what I did, researched Christianity, became a Christian, wrote a wonderful book. If anybody wants to really delve into what is the contrast between Islam and Christianity? He wrote a book called, um, Seeking Allah and Finding Jesus. And, um, he died a few years ago. I was with Adam at his bedside just before he passed. Um, a great, great man, a young guy, medical doctor by profession. And, um, but he did the research and, and converted from Christianity. One of the things he told me, he said, it was interesting.

• 1:37:19Lee Strobel?

  He said, you know, Lee, there are 99 names for God in Islam, for Allah, 99 names. Not one of them is Father.

• 1:37:31Lee Strobel?

  And yet in the Bible, how is Jesus taught to pray?

• 1:37:37Lee Strobel?

  Our Father, this, this, this Father, the Godhood, the, the, the, yeah, it is our, our Father who art in heaven. That summarizes things more than any single fact I know, that the God of, the Allah is not the same as the God of the Bible. He's never called Father in the Quran. God is referred to Father in his picture and, and presented as Father in the Bible. There's a big contrast there.

• 1:38:09Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 1:38:10Lee Strobel?

  So, um, but, um, yeah, so I'm, I'm no scholar on Islam, but I have the read the Quran. I have had many conversations with, with Muslims. I love, I love them. I know God loves them too. And, uh, but I, you know, these two things cannot be true at the same time.

• 1:38:29Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:38:30Lee Strobel?

  They can't be. They are logically incompatible. So you either have to believe that one of them's true, or neither of them are true. And that's the quest that I think we're all on.

• 1:38:41Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. What, what was Jesus's communication with the Father? How, how was he communicating differently than everybody else?

• 1:38:52Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, he, he prayed and, you know, he taught the disciples how to pray, the Lord's Prayer. This beautiful prayer that he taught, you know, when you pray, pray our Father, who art, and he, he used a very intimate word there, um, in, in the, um, Aramaic, um, Abba, which is a very, it's not just Father, distant Father, it's, it's a more intimate term for a dad. Um, it's what I would call my dad, Abba. Um, and, and Jesus taught his followers, say, "Abba, Father." I mean, this rocked their world. This is the Yahweh. This is the God whose name you didn't even write because you're so fearful that you're going to spell it wrong or something.

• 1:39:37Lee Strobel?

  And, and really? What'd he call him? Abba?

• 1:39:42Lee Strobel?

  But I mean, it just transformed everybody's thinking about God. And yet, you don't see that in other religions. You don't see that in other faiths. That's a uniqueness of Christianity.

• 1:39:55Shawn Ryan?

  So, the one thing that gets me that I find myself thinking about quite a bit is, you know, is Jesus is... Forgive my uses of words, I probably butcher this. Jesus is an extension of God. It's one and the same thing. But Jesus also lived on earth as human.

• 1:40:16Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:40:16Shawn Ryan?

  You know, supposedly had all the same temptations, the same suffering, more suffering. Basically, he ate the same shit sandwich that we all eat, you know, going through life.

• 1:40:29Lee Strobel?

  Worse than you and me, for sure.

• 1:40:30Shawn Ryan?

  But, you know, but his... He had to have had that direct connection.

• 1:40:38Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:39Shawn Ryan?

  That we either don't have or can't figure out how to access a lot of times.

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• 1:41:45Lee Strobel?

  Well, it's some good points. Um, he is, Jesus is fully God and fully man. So we have the Godhead, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, who existed from eternity past in this perfect love relationship.

• 1:41:59Lee Strobel?

  Uh, and so God, um, the Son comes into our world, becomes fully God and fully man, and as you say, he lives among us. He's wa- I mean, he lived a harder life than you and I, and we've, you know. Uh, and, um, the Bible says, interestingly, there's a verse, I believe it's in Hebrews, that says that Jesus learned obedience through suffering.

• 1:42:27Lee Strobel?

  So he had to even learn how to be obedient to the Father through the suffering that he went through. I thought that was interesting, because we go through, go through suffering. And yet, we can learn from that how to be obedient to God. But, um, so he's fully God, he's fully man. He was, he, he, he was tempted, and yet the Bible says, "And yet without sin." So he, he, he felt emotions as we feel them, but he, not to the extent that he was ever sinful with those. How that works out, I don't know. I'm gonna ask him someday in heaven.

• 1:43:00Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think about that, though? I mean, if-

• 1:43:01Lee Strobel?

  I do sometimes, yeah.

• 1:43:02Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, if he has the...

• 1:43:08Shawn Ryan?

  This is probably really dumb of me to try to compare, you know, what, what he was going through to what we're going through. I know, I know, it, it doesn't make sense, and I'll probably get, probably get, probably all kinds of comments telling me that. But, you know, but I'm, I'm trying to understand.

• 1:43:23Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:43:24Shawn Ryan?

  And so, you know, with, when he had, I mean, when he was born, how did he know who his dad is?

• 1:43:30Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:30Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how, I mean, he, his faith was so much stronger than any of ours, than mine at least, that, that, that-

• 1:43:40Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know what I'm saying? So was it? Yes. Undeniable. Much more suffering than I'll hopefully ever have to endure, or any of us. But, you know, the faith, his faith was so much stronger than, than, than, than mine, probably than your, you know, than anybody else. That it's, it's, I mean, he, he.

• 1:44:04Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:05Shawn Ryan?

  He knew it as fact.

• 1:44:06Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, he knew it.

• 1:44:07Shawn Ryan?

  It was fact.

• 1:44:08Lee Strobel?

  That's a good way to put it.

• 1:44:09Shawn Ryan?

  The direct connect.

• 1:44:10Lee Strobel?

  You know, there's a passage in, um, Philippians in the New Testament, chapter two, that may be the earliest Christmas carol. I think it was. It may be a hymn of the earliest church, but it talks about how Jesus was in heaven. But he didn't cling to the perks of being in heaven. And he gave that up to come into our world. And, and it says, even to the point of dying on a cross. So Jesus pre-existed from eternity past. He has, he is God. How much did he know as a baby? How much did he have to learn? When did he really realize who he was?

• 1:44:53Shawn Ryan?

  Somebody had to tell him.

• 1:44:54Lee Strobel?

  There's a good question.

• 1:44:55Shawn Ryan?

  He had to direct connect.

• 1:44:56Lee Strobel?

  It is a good question.

• 1:44:57Shawn Ryan?

  Kind of what I'm getting at, Lee, is, is.

• 1:45:00Lee Strobel?

  How do we connect that way?

• 1:45:01Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. How do we, how do, how? Okay.

• 1:45:03Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:45:03Shawn Ryan?

  Let me just.

• 1:45:04Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:45:04Shawn Ryan?

  If you.

• 1:45:09Shawn Ryan?

  We see all these Christians being slaughtered in Syria.

• 1:45:12Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:12Shawn Ryan?

  Right? They're going off, let's say you, let's, I'm just going to put you in a really messed up situation. Do you believe in Jesus Christ or do you not? And if you do not, if you do not denounce him right now, you are going to suffer. I mean, I think about this all the time because.

• 1:45:30Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:45:30Shawn Ryan?

  It's happening.

• 1:45:31Lee Strobel?

  It's happening.

• 1:45:31Shawn Ryan?

  It's just not happening in this country.

• 1:45:33Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:33Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and so when you're looking down the barrel of a rifle.

• 1:45:38Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:38Shawn Ryan?

  Or a cross that you're going to be crucified on, or a blade that they're going to chop your head off with.

• 1:45:44Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:45:44Shawn Ryan?

  You don't, I mean, that's a very, you know, you can sit here and, and go, wow.

• 1:45:50Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:50Shawn Ryan?

  Of course I'm not going to do it. It's a lot different than being on your knees in front of somebody that's gonna chop your head off.

• 1:45:57Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:45:58Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and but so kinda what I'm getting at is if that were to happen to me and you, to me or you, we are only going off of faith. We do not know that as fact.

• 1:46:07Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:08Shawn Ryan?

  Jesus knew that as fact because he had some type of a direct connection. So did he?

• 1:46:15Lee Strobel?

  I

• 1:46:15Shawn Ryan?

  Was he going through the same thing as us? Because he knows what's on the other side of that. He knew what's on the other side.

• 1:46:20Lee Strobel?

  We don't, we don't really know. There's a lot of theories about this. Uh, to what degree he knew what he knew when he knew it. You know, and when he's five years old, did he understand he was the Savior of the world? Did he understand, did he know all the things he knew as God at five years old? Could he speak every language on the planet at five years old? I don't know. Um, we don't, we're not told a lot of this stuff. We do know he had a special, as you say, a connection with God in the sense that he was willing to go to the cross, not because he had a pretty good idea that it was all gonna work out.

• 1:46:53Shawn Ryan?

  He knew the truth.

• 1:46:55Lee Strobel?

  He knew, because he is the truth. And he's described in Scripture being the truth, the way, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through him. So he had that intimate understanding that he is God, that the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God. He knew that, and knowing that, he was willing to die for it. We can't know it as certainly as he did, but we can know it with confidence. We can, we can, you know, and here's why. Is there faith involved? Yes, of course. But it is a faith that is a step in the same direction the evidence is pointing. In other words, there are about 20 lines of evidence through archaeology, through ancient history, through fulfillment

• 1:47:40Lee Strobel?

  of prophecies, through all the reliability of the Gospels, through all these things. There are about 20 different lines of evidence that point in the direction of Christianity being true. They're arrows. They point that way.

• 1:47:53Lee Strobel?

  But it's not enough just to know that. Because the Bible says in John 1:12, "As many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believed in his name." So the formula is believe plus receive equals become. So you can believe that all this evidence points in the direction of Jesus being the unique Son of God, who offers to forgive our sins and spend eternity with us in heaven. You can believe that, but even the demons believe that, and they shudder at the implications. You have to take a step of faith, but it's in the same direction the evidence is pointing. That's logical, that's rational, we do that every day of our life. When we take that step of faith and we receive that free gift of forgiveness and eternal

• 1:48:38Lee Strobel?

  life through Jesus Christ, we become adopted as his son or daughter forever. The Holy Spirit takes up residence inside of us and will give us over time increasing confidence and awareness of our relationship with God, which we then build through reading the Word of God, reading the Bible, which is what he wants us to know. So, you know, we say, "I wish God would talk to me." Here's 800,000 words. Yeah, he's talked to us, read that. So the Bible helps us understand who God is. And then to pray, to, I mean, you start out very haltingly, very, "God, I hope you're there, I hope you hear me," you know, but as you grow and mature in your faith, you

• 1:49:21Lee Strobel?

  begin to realize, "No, God is there, God is real, I've seen evidence of it in my life, I've seen him do things in my life that I cannot explain naturalistically." And it gives me confidence, and when I pray, he's listening. And it builds your faith, it encourages you, and it gets to the point where even the disciples, they were willing to die for their conviction that Jesus is the unique Son of God who proved it by returning from the dead. We don't know how all the disciples ended up dying, that gets a little lost in history, but their willingness to die for that conviction is well-established by seven ancient sources, inside and outside the Bible.

• 1:50:04Lee Strobel?

  So they became convinced it was true, because they talked to the resurrected Jesus, they ate with him, they experienced him, and knowing it was true, they were willing to die for that conviction. Well, we meet Jesus in a...

• 1:50:21Lee Strobel?

  Not a, well, not a physical way, as they did. But we meet Him when we receive Him as our forgiver and as our leader. And the Holy Spirit takes up residence in us. We begin a relationship with Him. We listen to Him through His Word. We speak to Him through our prayer. We watch His interactions with us, things He does in our life that we can't explain away. And it makes us stronger in our faith, so that we grow to that point where maybe someday, maybe in this country someday, we will be persecuted for our faith. And then that's a test. Will we stand up for what we believe and know is true? I hope so.

• 1:51:06Lee Strobel?

  But I've seen things in my life, I can't explain them, other than God was interacting with me, and that gives me confidence. I'll give you an example. I'm a pretty new Christian. I'd left behind my whole, my whole career that I'd spent my life building. Legal editor of the Chicago Tribune. You know, degree in law, degree in journalism. It's all I had done, all I ever wanted to do. And then I felt God saying, you know what? Give it up. Go join a staff of this church. Take a 60% pay cut and live for Me full-time. Okay, so we did. So Leslie and I are living a very frugal life on the staff of this church.

• 1:51:50Lee Strobel?

  And one day, I'm praying. And this happens as you mature in your prayer life, you, sometimes you sense God leading you. Sometimes you sense Him pointing you in a direction. And you always have to test it against the Bible. Is it consistent? Is it true? Maybe He's pointing me toward a verse in the Bible. But I'm praying, and I never felt this, but I felt like, and I know this sounds crazy, we only had $500 to our name. We had one bank account, 500 bucks. And I felt like God was saying to me, "Lee, I want you to empty your bank account and write an anonymous cashier's check and send it to this woman who's part of the church on Friday afternoon.

• 1:52:33Lee Strobel?

  Make sure, pay the post office Friday afternoon. Send it to her."

• 1:52:39Lee Strobel?

  Time out here, that's all I got. I said to Leslie, Leslie, would you pray with me about this? Because I'm sensing this and I'm not kind of happy about where it's taken me. But if this is from God, we need to do it. So Leslie and I pray together. She said, honey, I'm feeling the same thing. Okay. So we go to the bank. We get all of our money. We get an anonymous cashier's check. And Friday afternoon, we go to the post office and we mail it to that woman.

• 1:53:11Lee Strobel?

  Monday morning, before mail delivery that day, the phone rings. This woman calls me. She said, Lee, she's crying. I said, what? What's wrong, Maggie? Oh, something terrible's happened. Whoa, whoa, whoa, slow down. What happened? She said, my car broke down over the weekend. If I don't have my car, I'm going to lose my job. I'm going to lose my apartment. I don't have any money. She said, it's going to cost $500 to fix my car. I don't have $500. I don't know what to do. Would you please pray for me? I said, oh, Maggie, I'd be glad to pray for you. So I prayed that God would provide her that $500. We hung up. Because I had mailed it that Friday afternoon, Monday afternoon, the mail comes.

• 1:53:54Lee Strobel?

  She opens the mail and there's this anonymous check to cover the cost of her car. Now, God could have intervened so her car didn't break down. But then we wouldn't know the joy of being the answer to someone's prayers. That built my faith. That wasn't a miracle. I don't know if it was or not. I'm just saying, um, it built my faith that God could have done that. But no, then you wouldn't know the joy and how wonderful it felt. To this day, she doesn't know. Well, now, if she listens to your podcast, she's going to know.

• 1:54:32Lee Strobel?

  But she doesn't know it was us. Doesn't matter that it was us. What matters is God loves her. And she was a new believer. She had a terrible childhood. She had given up on Christianity. But we did a debate at our church between a Christian and atheist. She came to the debate. She came to faith in Christ because of that debate and later teachings that she received. And she later quit her job as a nurse. Took a big pay cut, joined the staff of our church, and she was the one who would deliver my mail. Every day in the church, at the staff office, and to this day, she doesn't know that God led us to help her out. But that's how God works. Did that deepen my faith? Yeah.

• 1:55:12Lee Strobel?

  Did that increase my confidence that God really is listening and orchestrating things and knows things that I don't know? And wants me to do things that I may not get? But He's got a plan? Yeah. So. Will we get to the absolute knowledge that Jesus had? No. But I think we can get to a strong, vibrant, robust faith. That. Causes us even in the midst of persecution and even in the midst of pain. To continue to live for Him. And you're seeing that. Throughout places where people, as you say, are being beheaded. For their faith today, and they refuse to renounce it.

• 1:55:54Lee Strobel?

  Because God is real, and Jesus is real.

• 1:55:59Shawn Ryan?

  I love what you're saying there. I've had a lot of these encounters too. I mean, I mean, that's.

• 1:56:05Shawn Ryan?

  It's how I came to, you know what I mean? When we very first spoke, and I was wrong, Christmas last year isn't the first time we met. I think this is the fourth time you'd been on.

• 1:56:15Lee Strobel?

  Third time.

• 1:56:15Shawn Ryan?

  This is the third time?

• 1:56:16Lee Strobel?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:56:17Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, what was the first time?

• 1:56:18Lee Strobel?

  First time, and then John Burke and I did that one.

• 1:56:21Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:56:21Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:23Shawn Ryan?

  At some point in one of those interviews, I had, I, I believe I'd talked to you about,

• 1:56:30Shawn Ryan?

  you know, do you really believe? Do you ever have those thoughts in your head? Do you really believe? Are you just telling yourself this stuff? And, and I'm just being a hundred percent honest with me, you know, it, it, it, it's highs and lows, man. It is, it is, it looks like this.

• 1:56:45Lee Strobel?

  Yes.

• 1:56:46Shawn Ryan?

  I'm not really in the word. Oh, I'm really in the word.

• 1:56:48Lee Strobel?

  You're not alone.

• 1:56:48Shawn Ryan?

  I'm not really in it.

• 1:56:49Lee Strobel?

  That's right.

• 1:56:50Shawn Ryan?

  You know, faith's going down. Do I really believe in this stuff? Is this real?

• 1:56:56Shawn Ryan?

  Nah, I don't know. And then something will happen. And but what I really, uh, I mean, when you talk about, I just haven't figured out how to talk to him.

• 1:57:04Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:05Shawn Ryan?

  And I don't trust what I'm hearing.

• 1:57:07Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Shawn Ryan?

  I trust in, in affirmations.

• 1:57:11Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:11Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe is what I'm, but you know, I mean, I could, I could, I have a thought in my head right now.

• 1:57:17Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:17Shawn Ryan?

  I should sell the studio, everything that I've built here and donate it all to cancer. Is that?

• 1:57:25Lee Strobel?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:26Shawn Ryan?

  Is that from him or am I just coming up with?

• 1:57:28Lee Strobel?

  Yeah. And this is so important to, and, and you know, you haven't been a Christian that long. So, you know, you're on a pathway. You're, you know, we come to faith and then we grow. And, uh, so justification is the theological word. When we receive Jesus, we're quote unquote, born again. He, he adopts us into his family. We're endowed by the Holy Spirit. And then there's a period of sanctification where we grow in our faith. Um, and it's, it's two steps forward and one step back a lot of times. But I've been a Christian now since three o'clock in the afternoon on November the 8th of 1981. So I got a few years on you, you know? So, you know, it's not unusual to have those ups and downs by any means. But we have to, you know, the Bible says, test the spirits.

• 1:58:12Lee Strobel?

  Test the spirits. How do we do that? We test things when we feel like God, like when I felt like God was telling me to leave my entire career, everything I studied for and dreamt about, and I was succeeding, to leave that behind and. Join a church at 60% PICA? And people are telling me, "You're nuts. You can't put your kids through college. You're not making enough money to live on. What are you nuts?" Um, what did I look for? I looked for, A, I prayed and say, "God, if I'm misunderstanding, then tell me, put signs, communicate to me, because I'm about to take a big step here."

• 1:58:52Lee Strobel?

  You know, and so I asked God to head me off if I'm reading things wrong. Importantly, I had strong Christians in my life. My best friend, Mark Middleburg, and others, who know me better than anybody. He knows every sin in my life. He knows every good thing in my life. Mark and I are joined at the brain. And I love him like a brother. And the Bible says that. So they're believers. We're going to love like a brother. And I love Mark like a brother. And I know everything about him. And he knows everything about me. And we're totally honest with each other. And we pray for each other. We encourage each other. I say, "I believe in you, Mark, more than you believe in yourself."

• 1:59:37Lee Strobel?

  And he said, "Lee, same thing with you. I believe in you, even though you doubt yourself half the time." So we've got this great relationship. And when I sense God taking me down a path, and I wonder if it's right, if it's true, first thing I want to see is read, let's check the Bible. Is this contrary to the word of God? Is He telling me to do something that's clearly not biblical? Secondly, what are my committed Christian friends saying? I ask them to pray. Pray and see what God says to you. Do you get a consistent message that I'm getting? And so I take a lot of, that's why I think it's really important for Christians to have a small group relationship with a couple of other guys.

• 2:00:22Lee Strobel?

  People of the same gender, people you can go deep with, people you can hang out and be honest with. And when things like this come up, whatever it is, I'm doubting, I have a question about this or whatever. Say, "Hey, guys, I don't know what to do with this. I'm sensing God is telling me to do this. What do you think?" Well, Sounds a little crazy to us. Um, here's why I don't think it stacks up the scripture. Or here's why I don't, I'm not sensing the same thing. I mean, there's these yellow flags that go up. Mm-hmm. I've had that happen many times. When I'm thinking God wants me to do X, Y, and Z. I remember once I had, as a fairly young Christian, I was offered a national radio show. I would have had to have left my ministry at the church. And, um, I thought, this is a great opportunity.

• 2:01:06Lee Strobel?

  National show, my goodness. And, um, I did the audition, yes, want to hire you. And I went to my friends and they prayed and said, "I don't think that's what God wants you to do. Honestly don't. It's a great opportunity for somebody. I don't think it's for you." And they were right. Looking back, would have been the worst thing I could have done. Um, but I didn't know, but I thought it. I was tempted by it. So those are the kind of checks and balances I think we need to have. And it takes time. I had a small group of guys and we'd get together on Saturday morning. And we just scratched the surface. "Hey, how about the Bears?" We're in Chicago. "Yeah, Bears, great. How about the Cubbies? Oh, man, they traded. Oh, it was bad."

• 2:01:50Lee Strobel?

  And we'd talk, you know, and we'd go around the room and say, "What's new in our life?" And we were, we were just scratching the surface until one day. We're going around the room, talking about prayer requests. "Yeah, pray for this, pray for that." And the guy next to me breaks into tears. And he says, "My marriage is breaking up. I think my wife and I are going to split. I don't know what to do. I don't know where to go. Guys, I'm desperate." And he began to cry. That was the breakthrough that our group needed. We never scratched the surface again. Because what did we do?

• 2:02:32Lee Strobel?

  We got around our brother and put our arms around him and we prayed for him. And we counseled him and we encouraged him and we walked him through that difficult time in his marriage. And it came out strong and he's fine today. But because he was willing, among brothers or sisters, among brothers in Christ, to be honest about suffering that he was going through and doubts that he was having about faith and so forth.

• 2:02:59Lee Strobel?

  To go deep and get around it. So, we need that in our life. My wife's got it. She's got a friend who led her to the Lord. You know, all those years ago, 1980s, and is still a good friend and still a good guide and counsel. And when I was an atheist and my wife was a Christian, and our marriage was on the rocks as a result, her friend counseled her and encouraged her and prayed with her and kept her positive. And that's what kept our marriage together. So, I think we go to the Word of God. We deal with people in our life who are strong believers. We pray with them. We test the spirits as best we can to determine, is this where God's leading us?

• 2:03:43Lee Strobel?

  And that's how I think we get direction. And as you say, it's like this a lot of times. I mean, I could think of times in my life where my faith was, oh, my gosh, it's on the rocks. And I have to keep coming back for me, because I tend to be a rational guy. I need to come back to the evidence. Oh, yeah, I remember now. We got nine historical sources, right there from the earliest days, that the disciples encountered the resurrected Jesus who proved he's the Son of God. Oh, yeah, okay, that's right. I forgot. Yep, I got the evidence. This is true. Sometimes I need that, just as a rational guy. But, you know, we all go through those periods. So, I would say to anybody watching, you know, if you're a believer,

• 2:04:26Lee Strobel?

  delve into Scripture, continue to soak that in. That is the Word of God. Why doesn't God talk to me? He is. He is. There it is. And then develop that one or two friends who you can really trust, who love you as much as you love them, and who are deep in the Word, and who can be a sounding board. That's so important.

• 2:04:50Lee Strobel?

  Thank you, Lee. Sure. That's good. Last question. Yeah. You ready? Uh-oh. I don't know. Can I take a drink of water? That's why I need to hydrate?

• 2:05:02Lee Strobel?

  Who is the real Santa Claus? Oh, that's a great question. Uh-oh.

• 2:05:08Lee Strobel?

  I'm so glad you asked that, and the reason is, I get so many emails from parents of young children saying, "What do I tell my kids about Santa Claus?"

• 2:05:17Lee Strobel?

  I mean, and my answer is, you can encourage your... Let's play with it. It's okay to have fun with the idea of Santa Claus. To present him as a story, as a legend, as an idea, you know, not real, but fun to think about and so forth. But then tell them about the real Santa Claus. The real Santa Claus was a guy named Nicholas, Saint Nick. He was born in 270 AD, and he was born in Myra, Turkey. And he became a Christian. He came from a wealthy family.

• 2:05:55Lee Strobel?

  And he became a bishop of an area on the coast of Turkey. And he was the most generous guy. Not only generous, but he was sensitive to, "If I'm gonna give you some money because you need it, I don't want to do it in a way to embarrass you." So he would often leave gifts on people's doorstep, so they'd find it in the morning, or in a bush near their house or something, because he didn't want to embarrass them. He was a man of love and truth. His love was shown by his great generosity. But he was a man of truth. He was imprisoned by the Romans and tortured for his faith. In the year 325 AD, he was a member of the Council of Nicaea,

• 2:06:40Lee Strobel?

  where he fought the heretic Ares, who had heretical ideas, was trying to convince people of heretical ideas. There's a legend that Nicholas actually slapped Ares across the face. That's probably not true. But he stood up for truth. He was a man of truth. And when he died, and was martyred for his faith, I think it was on December the 19th... A tradition began of gift giving, because he was such a gift giver. That's what he loved. He gave away all his wealth. He was such a gift giver, and people in remembrance of this Saint Nicholas would give people gifts. Martin Luther was the one who said, "Let's not emphasize a saint.

• 2:07:25Lee Strobel?

  Let's move that gift-giving impulse to Christmas." It's only just a few days later, December 25th. And that's why we give gifts on Christmas Day, is because of Saint Nicholas and his gift-giving. And how Martin Luther kind of moved that to Christmas Day, just six days later. But here's a story about Saint Nicholas, the real Santa Claus. Now, granted, this comes from a biography of Saint Nicholas that was written 500 years after his life. So, how accurate it really is, we don't really know. But the story goes that, back in those days, if you were a father and you had three daughters, as this one guy did, you would have to have a dowry to pay the family of someone to marry your daughter.

• 2:08:10Lee Strobel?

  If you didn't have the money, the dowry, they couldn't get married. And if they couldn't get married, they'd probably end up in prostitution. So, in Nicholas's community was a man, he lost his job. He didn't have any money, and he had three daughters. He didn't have the dowry. One of them wanted to get married, he didn't have the dowry. One day, Saint Nicholas comes down the street, they lived on a second floor. He took a little bag of gold coins and threw it up into their window. They find it, that's the dowry, she gets married, she has his grandchildren for him, everything's great. The second one comes time for her to get married, don't have a dowry either. Saint Nicholas comes by again with a bag of coins, and he tosses them up.

• 2:08:55Lee Strobel?

  She gets the money for the dowry, she gets married. The third one gets old enough to get married. Saint Nicholas comes by. Well, now the father's wondering, "What in the world's going on?" Right? So, he stakes things out, he's watching, he's outside, "What is going on?" So, and he catches Nicholas. "So, what are you doing?" And Nicholas throws the coins up, and he says, "This is just between us. Don't tell anybody." Well, that made, that story made its way into Nicholas's biography. And what's interesting is in medieval times, medieval painters painted pictures of stockings hanging on the chimney.

• 2:09:38Lee Strobel?

  And the idea was that maybe those three girls had stockings drying on the chimney, on the chimney in their room. And the coins came up into the stockings. And that's today, why we put gifts in stockings for our children. What a cool story. Now, Santa Claus himself later developed mainly in the Netherlands, fanciful story, based on Saint Nicholas, but it got all jazzed up and so forth. And it was carried over into the American colonies in the 1700s. They call them Sinterklaas in Dutch. And, but the most interesting thing about that is, the picture we see today of Santa

• 2:10:20Lee Strobel?

  Claus, with the white beard, with the red suit, with the hat, with the glasses and everything, you know where that comes from? In the 1930s, Coca-Cola Company did a big print campaign in magazines with color drawings of Santa Claus that looked that way. And so it's because of Coca-Cola Company that today, this is how we picture Santa Claus. No kidding. Yes, that's right. So you can take a swig of Coke and thank them that that's where we got the picture of Santa Claus today. Wow. That's a good, that's a good story. Wow. That's, thank you. Well, Lee, another great interview, man. Well, Merry Christmas to you and your family.

• 2:11:05Lee Strobel?

  And I really mean that. I, I pray that God is doing amazing things through you and through this, this amazing opportunity he's given you to influence people all around the planet. And my prayer for you and for the folks who work with you here is that God is going to use you in 2026 and beyond in ways that you'll only understand in heaven. That's, I told you about having dinner last night in Paducah, Kentucky. And I was signing some books and a woman came up to me in tears with her husband. And she said, I just have to tell you, I listened to an interview that Sean Ryan did on his podcast with you and John Burke.

• 2:11:48Lee Strobel?

  And in tears, she said, "That was when I came to faith in Jesus Christ." And I said, "I'm gonna see Shawn tomorrow." And she says, "Oh, would you please tell him? Would you please tell him? He changed my life. That podcast changed my life." My prayer is that will be multiplied countless times in 2026 and beyond.

• 2:12:13Shawn Ryan?

  I hope that too. I'll pray for that too.

• 2:12:15Lee Strobel?

  Awesome.

• 2:12:16Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you, Lee.

• 2:12:17Lee Strobel?

  My pleasure.

• 2:12:18Shawn Ryan?

  Merry Christmas, brother. You too.

• 2:12:20Lee Strobel?

  God bless.

• 2:12:20Shawn Ryan?

  God bless.

• 2:12:33Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching Shawn Ryan Show from, if you get anything out of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review on Apple and Spotify Podcasts.