#394 - “I Was There” Tech Elites Are Planning Breakaway Civilization | Douglas Rushkoff

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Douglas Rushkoff is a media theorist, writer, lecturer and documentarian. He is best known for his advocacy of open source solutions to social problems, and also has written many books on topics including the occult, society, media, and technology. His latest book, "Survival of the Richest" reveals how 5 mysterious billionaires summoned Douglas Rushkoff to the desert for a private talk. SPONSORS https://stopboxusa.com/danny - Use code DANNY for 10% off StopBox. https://amentara.com/go/djp - Use code DJ11 for an EXTRA 11% off. https://irestore.com/danny - Use code DANNY for huge savings on iRestore. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS Doug's YouTube: @douglasrushkoff https://rushkoff.com FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Escape fantasies of tech billionaires 07:39 - Peter Thiel's model of reality 15:35 - The origin of money in the middle ages 25:32 - Kessler Syndrome 30:54 - How capitalism destroyed the internet 31:41 - The "scientistic" view of reality 35:51 - Epstein funded anti-spiritual science 41:12 - How wealth corrupts empathy 42:38 - Horizontal vs. pyramidal societies 47:07 - Getting high without drugs 54:09 - Meet your neighbors 01:00:04 - Big tech controlling the media 01:01:54 - Larry Ellison's surveillance infrastructure 01:06:22 - Moment of bliss during death 01:11:43 - Benefits of quitting social media 01:13:17 - The ISTA cult 01:18:34 - How written language changed the course of history 01:23:35 - American elites weaponizing religion 01:31:17 - Danny's fitness routine 01:35:03 - What happens to kids raised with wealth 01:37:38 - Attending one of Epstein's parties 01:45:33 - Adam Curtis' HyperNormalisation 01:48:16 - Living in simulated realities 01:53:11 - The importance of "what if?" 01:58:15 - The only TED Talk that ever got censored 02:00:39 - Retrocausality Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:08Speaker 01

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• 1:43Danny Jones?

  Nice to meet you, Doug.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  Good to meet you.

• 1:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah. You are into some fascinating stuff. You've written like 25 or so books.

• 1:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51Danny Jones?

  And all kinds of wild stuff, the history of media, culture. You could probably do a better job than me. Why don't you sort of explain your background and how you got into this?

• 2:02Speaker 02

  I don't know. I started really... Originally, I started writing because I was interested in alter states of consciousness. And I wrote this book that no one knows about. I wrote this book when I was like... Twenty four, twenty five called Free Rides, Ways to Get High Without Drugs. And the idea was that they're they're they're not so afraid of the drugs themselves. They, the the people making the laws, they're afraid of the states of consciousness that they provide. Because then people can see alternative ways of understanding reality. You know, so once you're high on anything, you come back and you go, well, why did I agree that this is money? Why do I agree that that is rent? Why do I agree that I work for him? It's like what all your social agreements go away. So that was what it started.

• 2:47Speaker 02

  And I was a theater person and I got really sick of theater because it was like very expensive and predictable and all. And just when I was getting sick of theater, the internet thing was just starting to happen. So I started to write articles about what is email? What is hypertext? What is virtual reality? Before anybody believed that the stuff was real or gonna happen. Right, so I was in New York. I'd go out to San Francisco, go to the house where they like published Mondo Two Thousand Magazine or hang out with Terrence McKenna or and learn about all the weird stuff. I started writing articles and then books about that. I wrote a book called Siberia, which sort of took rave and psychedelics and hypertext

• 3:31Speaker 02

  and and and all that sort of new stuff happening. All right. And saying this is part of one thing, society is changing. So I was the guy on the beat of the original internet. I wrote a book called Media Virus, sort of naming the viral media phenomenon. That put me on the map. Once you get a word, they kind of think they're thing. So I got that term and then started writing about how the internet went from this great creative collective playground to this kind of controlled, big money surveillance manipulation apparatus. Wrote a bunch about that. And then I got interested in magic and the occult and weirdness kind of as ways of creating more wiggle room in in consensus culture.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  I wrote a bunch of those, wrote a bunch of graphic novels, one about Aleister Crowley, one about the Bible. You know, went in a bunch of different directions. And then now do a podcast called Team Human, arguing that being human is a team sport. We can do this together. The only way out is through, but the only way through is together. And and I wrote this book that kind of that made a lot of. I don't know what waves and collapse both called survival of the richest escape fantasies of the tech billionaires that looked at why do these guys want to escape our reality and leave us all behind?

• 4:50Danny Jones?

  That how did you do the research for that? Did you go meet with like a bunch of tech?

• 4:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was weird. That happened accidentally. You know, I get hired to do talks and sometimes even by I'm counter culture guy, but big corporations will hire me almost as a proof that they could that they dare, right?

• 5:08Danny Jones?

  Or they're tapped into the culture.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. Or they do it as some sort of intellectual dominatrix thing. You know, it's like I tell them what they're doing wrong. Thank you, sir. May I please have another? So it was one of those I was got invited out to do a talk for for it was some kind of hedge fund about the economy of the future and whatever. And they fly me out like business class, the whole nine yards and limo through the desert to this resort and it's a whole, whole thing. And I'm waiting in the green room to go on. And usually, you know, when you're in the green room, the guy comes with a little clip on mic and whatever to bring you out.

• 5:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 5:43Speaker 02

  And instead of these five guys come into the green room and they sit around this table. And this is the talk. It's these five ultra wealthy guys and they want to know. I mean, originally it was like these sort of investment questions. They were like Bitcoin or Ethereum, you know, virtual reality or augmented reality like, dude, don't come to me for that. I would have said Betamax. I would have said CompuServe. I understand what's going to happen, but I'm not the guy to I don't, I don't tell you what company to bet on. But then finally they were like Alaska or New Zealand. They wanted to know where to put their bunkers in case of what they called the event, you know, the electromagnetic pulse or revolution, climate event or pandemic that makes the world unlivable and forces them to go somewhere else.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  And that was, you know, I got, I tried to play with them at that point because they're just crazy wealthy guys, you know? And I was like, so how are you going to protect your bunker from the rest of us? Like, oh, we got Navy SEALs, you know, on speed dial, they're going to come out and, you know, like, okay, then how are you going to pay your Navy SEALs once your Bitcoin's not worth anything because the world's in? Uh, so they've like thought it out like Walking Dead level scenario planning, but they haven't really looked at. How do you stay alive and you can't, you know, not for very long like that.

• 7:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 7:02Speaker 02

  But it, so then that's what set me on the journey to figure out how did the wealthiest, most powerful people in the world convince themselves that they're utterly incapable of sustaining our world? That the best they can do is prepare for the inevitable collapse of civilization and try to survive in some kind of a

• 7:22Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  A futile bunker.

• 7:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's kind of, you know, this recent stuff with the Epstein files kind of illuminated a lot of that. There were so many emails with Epstein and people like Peter Thiel. There was like thousand, I think over 2,000 emails with Peter Thiel and other people like that. And you could kind of see if you started to like really spend the time to read it and digest it, how these people operate, you know? And it really got me thinking like, I mean, I was sitting down, reading some of these emails at night. Like it was like I was binging Game of Thrones.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:00Danny Jones?

  It was just, I was so into it. And, you know, it got me really thinking about, thinking differently about these people at like the top of the hierarchy of the top of the food chain in society, like people like Thiel and Elon and all those folks. Uh, that like, it's pretty clear, these guys aren't necessarily, they don't feel responsible for society, or they don't necessarily feel like they, it's their duty to, you know, push forward the American empire or whatever their public claims are.

• 8:44Danny Jones?

  It don't, don't seem to be reality. What the reality is, is there's this. Inner sort of something going going on within their psyche, like deep within them that is being projected out publicly and narratives are being spun in the media. So we all have this like distilled sort of like reconstructed version of what their reality is, if that makes any sense.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, although sometimes they really do just say it outright. You know, Peter Thiel was doing these lectures on Satanism, right? On what he sees as the satanic force and he sees mutual aid as the satanic force. You know, in his model of reality, a few humans will rise above. A few humans will level up. You know, his book is called From Zero to One, meaning that you go from zero to one, that you need to become one order of magnitude above everybody else.

• 9:52Speaker 02

  And in business, it can kind of make sense, like rather than having a website own Facebook that controls the websites, right? Rather than having a store online, have Amazon, which is the aggregator of all the stores. So you level up. But he sees that as kind of in his version of Christianity, you level, a few humans will level up and they need the resources and the stuff in order to do that. If you're busy spreading out the wealth and resources and giving it to people who are just gonna die eventually anyway, you're wasting what could be going up. So that's why, you know, to him, like Greta Thunberg is the devil, that anybody who's

• 10:33Speaker 02

  trying to spread it out, when the object of the game, it's a pyramidal society, the object of the game is to gather the stuff and climb up it, right? And get to the get to the top and transcend. And that's, I mean, to cut to the chase, that's the vision of the most extreme of these kind of transhumanist tech bros. What they see, they see human beings like larva, like maggots living on the earth, which is this piece of dung. You know, and you've seen maggots and they're on the other, that's what we are. And a few of us are gonna sprout wings.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  And get off, right? Either up into the ether of the cloud, or off the planet, or into another dimension, or through a quantum leap or something. A few of us will sprout wings and go. The rest of us, we're only important insofar as we serve as the labor and the fuel for the few who get the wings and go everywhere else. So now that they see, and they do believe in climate change, probably more than you and me, they see that the thing is ending, the civilization is ending. The economy got too poorly distributed, right? The pyramid of the society, there's too many elites at the top. It's going to collapse. We all see it. They see it.

• 12:02Speaker 02

  So now the race is on. They've got to build their AI to figure out how to get to the next place. You know, and temporarily, they could stave off maybe 50 or 100 years by having a castle protected by, you know, droid armies and a police state. You know, that's sort of what they're building currently. That is the plan, but that's not the long term. The long term plan is to get out, is to leave us behind.

• 12:32Danny Jones?

  And it's like, the fact that he is the one in charge of, or he's the one behind everything in Silicon Valley, with like wrapping everything in Christianity, and there's all these articles that have been coming out about how now everyone in Silicon Valley is going to church, and he's trying to paint Christianity onto everything that's happening there, and he's hosting these anti-Christ talks, lectures that Duncan went to.

• 12:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 12:58Danny Jones?

  And what he's doing, like, his beliefs, his values, wanting to live forever and escape the planet, doesn't seem to be a very Christian ideal.

• 13:08Speaker 02

  No, because the thing he doesn't realize, and the tech bros in general don't realize, is their vision of transcendence is the opposite. What they want to do is preserve their ego and personality exactly like it is, you know, record it and stick it in an AI, or get enough, you know, child blood so they can maintain it, whatever, but they...

• 13:32Speaker 02

  The things they're doing are so earthly. They're so heavy, even all the heavy metals that you need for AI. That's what they invest in is like rare earth, heavy, grounded. They're, they're trying to, even life extension as they understand it. It's not life extension. It's not the blossoming of, of a life form. There's no, um, I mean, anybody who's taken a decent plant medicine understands it. What we're doing here, we're metabolizing, right? We're metabolizing and changing state. That's what mushrooms do. They turn poop into life. It's that change. If you can't engage in that cycle, you're not really alive. So what are they preserving? It's back to the pharaohs. What did the pharaohs do?

• 14:17Speaker 02

  What does any empire civilization do? You end up with a few super duper wealthy, powerful people who genuinely believe that tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives can be sacrificed to preserve their sarcophagus. Right? To keep them alive forever.

• 14:37Danny Jones?

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• 15:53Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Well, I mean, the thing that I was interested in.

• 15:58Speaker 02

  Because I also have kind of a, it's weird, I kind of have an academic hat to the outside world, it looks like to people in academia, they know it, it's a frazzled little hat. I mean, I was, you know, and I mean, a regular kind of writer dude, who got a PhD late so that I could, I could teach for money and health insurance and stuff, because writing is an up and down, it's an up and down profession, you know? Yeah. But, um, but getting a PhD taught me enough to really try to look at where did this thing come from, you know? I've always been really good at looking at something and saying like, that's weird, right? Like looking at a dollar bill and in that kind of stoned way and going, why does this paper have value? Like huh? Right.

• 16:41Speaker 02

  But then what the academic does is say, well, let's find out, you know? Who was it that, who was it that figured out how to make a piece of paper have value? How do they enforce it? Why do we believe it? What are its biases? What came before it? What kind of money was there before central currency loaned out by a central bank at interest? And how did it work? And what did it do? So that's the sort of thing, I'll look back at, at, at those kinds of things. So, I mean, I mean, money is a great one, right? So i- in my work, what I look back at is, I kind of go back to the late Middle Ages as my starting place, although you can go all the way back to anything, you know?

• 17:25Speaker 02

  Late Middle Ages was like right after the Crusades, they, they'd gone on all these Christian soldiers from Europe and out into Muslim lands and they, you know, fought and killed and whatever, and then Crusades kind of ended, and it was a whole bad thing, but they had opened up all these trade routes to all these other parts of the world. So Europe got really cool and interesting. They brought back all these new technologies and, you know, windmills and watermills and new money systems and even the marketplace. We didn't have a market until then. We saw this thing called the bazaar. Right. And it was like, oh, that's cool. People just bring their shit and sell it to each other and whatever. So we started in Europe, we, I mean, I don't know where my people were at that point, but, you know, they started doing these marketplaces.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  And these were people who were formerly peasants, right? They would just bring their crops to the Lord and eat what they could. So now people are starting to bring things like one person selling shoes, someone else is selling chickens. And then they started to use this kind of money that was like poker chips. It was basically money that got issued in the morning, but usually by the baker or someone who had some kind of commodity and it would expire at the end of the day. So the idea is it was like poker chips that they had no value in themselves. So everybody just traded stuff, right? It was optimized for trading. There was no way to save up, right? So you, nobody would hoard money or try to hold it. It wasn't gold, it was worthless. So it was just used like IOUs so that we can each get the thing. I want shoes, you want chickens, he wants meat.

• 18:55Speaker 02

  This was so we could all get the things and then sort of settle books at the end of the day and it was done. So it was no money and people got rich. People actually got rich and because they couldn't, and this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but this is actually, it's, it's a happy conspiracy. It's, it's just history. People got wealthy and they got healthy, like women at that time, late Middle Ages, England, 11th, 12th century. They were taller than at any time until the 1980s till they caught up. That's how healthy people were. They worked like three days a week because what do you do if you, if you're doing well, but you don't want to keep? We don't even have a reason to keep working because you have no way to store the money. So if you can't hoard money, what are you going to do?

• 19:40Speaker 02

  You're going to start optimizing your society for leisure, which is what they did. How much do I have to work in order to have everything I need? So the sign of wealth, the sign of doing well was, oh, look, Joe only works two days a week, right? Because his pig farm is doing so well, he doesn't have to work that much. You know, so what is that like? So people started to get wealthy and the aristocracy got really upset, right? Because there were the former lords, they hadn't worked in a thousand years. And now all of a sudden the peasants are becoming the middle class, the bourgeois that we hate. So what did they do? They had to stop the rise of the middle class and they came up with two ideas, right? One that we know about was the corporation or what they called the chartered monopoly.

• 20:22Speaker 02

  The idea of a chartered monopoly, what is, we know what a monopoly is. Charter means it's the king mandated monopoly. The king charters a monopoly. So now it's like. If you're my friend, I'll be like, okay, Danny, now you're not just a shoemaker. You are His Majesty's Royal Chartered Monopoly Shoemaker. You're the official shoemaker. All the other shoemakers in town, in the city, in our country, they gotta work for you. That's when employment was invented. There weren't employees before that. There weren't employees. People worked, but they didn't have jobs at companies. It wasn't, it didn't work like now. Now, instead, all the other shoemakers, instead of them making shoes and selling them,

• 21:07Speaker 02

  now they go work for you by the hour. Right? So that's when, when hourly wages happened. That's when the clock went on the tower in the medieval village. They didn't have clocks up there before. They put them up really as a way of normalizing, showing time is our value. That's the highest thing now. Time is money. That's when, when that started. So what happened was people got really disconnected from the value they were creating. You were punching the clock. You were working eight hours a day, you know, 40 hour week, whatever it was, instead of working for what, for the value you created. And then what people like you figured out, what Danny, and not you in real life,

• 21:48Speaker 02

  but Danny, the, the guy who runs the company figured out is you don't even want qualified workers working for you. You want to go to the Home Depot parking lot, pick up a bunch of undocumented aliens and bring them in, train them in 15 minutes and pay them minimum wage. You don't want some super qualified shoemaker that's gonna demand 40 bucks an hour. Right? So that's when we got the assembly line. That's when we developed the industrial age so that you could train someone in 15 minutes to do one piece of the job, pass it on to the next person. And only you and your other boss people know the whole process of making it. So we got that. And we also got central currency. They've decided to make all those local currencies we were using, all those poker chips, all that stuff, that's all illegal, right?

• 22:33Speaker 02

  You can't use that anymore. Now, what you have to do is borrow money from the central treasury at interest. So if anyone wants to buy shoes from you, you can't use your own money. We want to make, the wealthy want to make money off that transaction. So the way they will is for me to have money, I've got to borrow money from the central treasury at interest, do my transactions, and then pay back more money than I borrowed. And that's a really weird ass idea. How do you pay back more than you borrowed? Where does the other money come from? The only way to get more is the economy has to grow. And that's why we talk about, to this day, that's why we talk about GDP and economic growth and all that. It's not so I can have the shoes I need and people can have the stuff they need.

• 23:18Speaker 02

  The economy has to grow because the operating system of the economy, this central currency, needs to be paid back with interest in order for it to work. That's the kind of money we use. So we live in a, in an economy and a society, a civilization, that has to grow in order to stay functional, right? And that worked really well for colonialism, getting a new world, getting new territories, getting new enslaved people, go keep going, going, going. And we kind of ran out, like 1950s, we kind of ran out of room, right? The Palestine pushed back, India pushed back, and no more. What do we do? What do we do? So let's create consumers out of Americans. We'll get people to buy more stuff.

• 24:00Speaker 02

  We'll use advertising and get people to buy shit they don't need just to keep the economy going. They'll get storage facilities to stick all the shit they don't need, and we'll get pollution. We'll make stuff disposable so they need to buy more so that the economy can grow. And we all accept that this growth is a great thing. Finally, the internet, that's going to be the best one of all because it's going to create infinite surface area, right? We're going to have the world wide web is forever, it's, it's an infinite marketplace. But what happened was it turned out people only have so many eyeball hours in a day, right? You only have so much time you can spend, so much attention. So that's part of why we're seeing the breakdown of the human mind is we're mining human attention. But, but that's the thing that's really reached its, its limit, is our ability to

• 24:44Speaker 02

  keep growing the economy in a way that's not just, well...

• 24:50Speaker 02

  In a way, that's not just hurting people. It's not just extracting value. So now it's really hard for almost anybody to make value, except the people who are at the very top of that, that growth pyramid. And those guys see this isn't going to work anymore. That this last thousand, two thousand years, you know, of, of, of growth through extraction and growth in this sort of corporatized, central currency way.

• 25:17Speaker 02

  It's up. It's that one's over. So they're like, what, what happens after? You know, what happens kind of after this, this particular capitalist extraction? And that's why you got folks like Nick Land in Europe saying, oh, it's going to be monarchy. That's what's going to come. You know, it's no, it's no longer a capitalist society. It's a monarchical society. And then things will work, things could work like that. Some people see socialism and, you know, that's what the sort of the Occupy people are all, we're going to have a sharing economy. And that one sounds better to me than a monarchy. And the tech bros are like, it's gonna be nothing at all. Right? That whole thing's going down. That's, you know, forever chemicals are forever. I don't want to live there.

• 25:59Danny Jones?

  We gotta get off this place. We gotta get off this planet.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:02Danny Jones?

  What do you think? What, what do you think they think? Those tech bros, like the people like Thiel and, you know, all those people, what, what do they think that this AI stuff is going to lead to? Like the, now that the AIs, the chat GPT is updating itself and you know, it's baked into everything, the social media, like we can't figure out what's real or not real. Now Grok, when you ask Grok if an image is real, Grok can't even tell you if it's real or not. Like, do they, I can't, I can't imagine there's any optimism within those people.

• 26:35Speaker 02

  Well, there is sometimes, you know, the thing I love about these people, I mean, these, these guys were kind of like the guys I would hang out with stoned in college and have these crazy thoughts, you know, what if we're living in an experiment that's being, you know, a simulation run by a grad student or somewhere on another planet? You know, those are fun, great conversations to have. It's just not great to like. Run a government or an economy based on

• 27:01Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  The most crazy answers to them. They're, I mean, different ones are thinking different things. You know, I mean, Elon Musk used to, he really thought he was getting off the planet. And pretty recently was when he decided, oh, I'm not, that's not gonna work.

• 27:16Danny Jones?

  We're gonna dial it back to the moon is what he said. Yeah.

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, dial it back to the moon or even try to make it work, you know, as we can here. You know, cause you know, I'm sure you've had somebody talk about that, um, what are they called? Kessler syndrome?

• 27:30Danny Jones?

  Maybe remind me what it is.

• 27:31Speaker 02

  The satellites in space are crashing into each other and making smaller and smaller particles.

• 27:37Danny Jones?

  Oh, I haven't heard this.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Oh, this is a big one. Right? So Musk knows about this. All right. It's an aside, but it's kind of cool.

• 27:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 27:44Speaker 02

  At least in terms of getting off the planet. So, you know, we have all these satellites and stuff up in space. And occasionally they crash into each other because they're up there moving at 20,000 miles an hour or whatever. And when they crash into each other, they make smaller particles. And then those smaller particles are all going around crashing into other stuff like the, um, remember the Chinese, uh, uh, they were just gonna bring their astronauts down from the Chinese space station or something. They couldn't do it. They couldn't do it because the, the craft that was supposed to pick them up got pierced by one of those projectiles.

• 28:17Danny Jones?

  Oh, no.

• 28:17Speaker 02

  Right. But the more satellites that get hit by projectiles, the more projectiles there are. Until it reaches this thing, it's called Kessler syndrome, where there's so many that it cascades. And then it's just like, um, just zillions and zillions of particles. They could be, yeah, look, they could be.

• 28:36Danny Jones?

  So it's like exponential.

• 28:37Speaker 02

  It's exponential and they could be a millimeter or centimeter big, but still, if your spacecraft gets hit by a centimeter, it still shreds you, right? So the idea is then this whole layer of, um, uh, of the, of the orb, this whole level of orbit is like, Zach, it's like Gettysburg, right? It's just like thousands of things and it's so bad though, that then we can't get off. It makes it impossible to get off planet.

• 29:04Danny Jones?

  Wouldn't that be ironic?

• 29:05Speaker 02

  Cause they trapped in there from that.

• 29:07Danny Jones?

  The irony.

• 29:08Speaker 02

  Recently, what Musk did, he was just asked permission to start, I don't know whether NASA or whatever runs this, the FEMA, who knows? To start using a different orbit because that orbit is just too crowded with crap to start launching his satellites to, uh,

• 29:24Danny Jones?

  So they want to start doing it deeper into space?

• 29:27Speaker 02

  No, they can't. They gotta do it closer.

• 29:28Danny Jones?

  Closer in.

• 29:29Speaker 02

  Because every time you go deeper in space, you're gonna risk going through that shrapnel field.

• 29:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah, what's the number? Isn't it like 30,000 something satellites are up there right now? Or is it 60? It's something crazy. It's like, it's like, I think it's getting damn near 100,000 satellites.

• 29:44Speaker 02

  And I would bet Musk has a lot of, and I'm not saying anything against space travel or whatever.

• 29:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 29:48Speaker 02

  It's just like, dudes, work this out.

• 29:53Danny Jones?

  Oh, 15,000. 2026, there's approximately 14 to 15,000 active satellites in Earth's orbit.

• 29:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but there's 45,000 total human-made objects.

• 30:02Danny Jones?

  What?

• 30:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, because those are inactive satellites and debris tracked in orbit. With millions more smaller pieces of debris. So millions of pieces. It's like, do you remember that movie? Who was it? Julia Roberts was up there or Sandra Bullock or somebody was in space and gravity.

• 30:19Danny Jones?

  I never saw that one.

• 30:20Speaker 02

  Right, and all these, that's what screws them up is this shrapnel goes back. But anyway, they're, they're, it's an interesting metaphor for the, the

• 30:32Speaker 02

  reverse impact of so many of these things, right? The more, it's like, you're kind of like, the more locks you put and guarded whatever, the more fences and shielded doors you put on a city street, the more crime they'll be on the street.

• 30:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 30:48Speaker 02

  Because it's just like you're making it, making it worse. So it feels like.

• 30:52Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 30:53Speaker 02

  And that's what they're doing. They're so, they're so afraid. But yeah, what I looked at, you know, was, I looked at how capitalism, which is really what we were describing before, the corporations and central currency, how it led to this sort of growth-based economy where the only way to survive is to become really big. Right? You've got to, you live in a pyramid and you've got to get higher and higher up the pyramid.

• 31:15Danny Jones?

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• 32:00Danny Jones?

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• 32:31Speaker 02

  I blamed capitalism for killing the net for a long time. That was like 10 years of books going, what they did to my internet. We were just gonna rave and party and share and it was a shareware. Everything was free. It was beautiful. And then they wanted to capture our attention and they, they, they took these technologies that we were using and turned them on us, right? So instead of giving people tech to realize their visions, they use tech on people to create our visions, right? They, they reversed the whole thing. It became what they called captology, right? Using tech on humans to predict and steer our behavior forward. And then use AIs and algorithms, which are basically, algorithms are almost like demons, right? I'm going to train something to use everything, use everything it knows about you to get you to act against your self-interest.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  So there was that, but then I started to look and I thought, you know, it's not just money. It's also something about the tech and the science also is, is part of it. And I look back at like the origins of empirical science. You know, it was this guy Francis Bacon around the same period, late Middle Ages, early Renaissance. Right? It's that same period Francis Bacon. And when he was selling the idea of empirical science, meaning evidence-based science to, to the court, he said that empirical science will let us take nature by the forelock, hold her down and submit her to our will. Right, so take nature by the hair, hold her down, and right, submit her to our will.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  That was the, so the way early scientists looked at the world was like this scary, dark, feminine nature, moon, fairies, earthworms, unpredictable stuff. We're gonna use science to make it all predictable, you know? So you take something, you you kill it, you take it apart and understand what it is.

• 34:20Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  It's not about life, it's about reduction, right? So anything that you can, anything you can weigh and measure exists. If you can't, do you have enough metrics for it? May as well not be there, it's nothing, right? So it's like, it was, it wasn't just like, like anti-female, but I mean, women kind of represented that unruly, I mean, it's, I understand, it's, what is that? What, what is it thinking? How is it thinking? What, what, what does it want?

• 34:48Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 34:48Speaker 02

  You know, and I, I need to be with it, but I'm afraid of it. No, no, I understand they were there, but that was the way they dealt with it, was, was to control it. So then you look at, you know, how that scientific, that's not even scientific, I would go scientistic mindset, it was scientism, it was sort of reductive, materialist science as religion, rather than science as the exploration it really is, you know, not scientific model, it was scientific reductionism. Then that came through to the, to the tech bros, anything you can't quantize is not real. Anything that can't be digitally

• 35:21Danny Jones?

  Weighed.

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Weighed, right? Exactly, and if you don't know what it is, then it's just noise. So all that DNA, all that's junk DNA. Don't worry, but don't take my junk DNA. What's, you know, it's my monkey DNA or whatever, that, it's not junk, it's gonna, just wait. I might, it's there, I might need it, it's my history, it's my, it's all the species I was, I don't want to lose, I don't want to lose that. You know, it's like, anything that's not on the quantized line is, is expendable. Everything is kind of auto-tuned into their reality. You know, and it's like, I get it, you want to auto-tune Ariana Grande or something, she'll be a better product, hitting the sea perfectly, go at it, go for it. But like James Brown, right, who's like reaching up to the note and lives in that in-between

• 36:06Speaker 02

  space, if you auto-tune James Brown, you're, you're literally removing the soul.

• 36:11Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 36:12Speaker 02

  And the soul to these guys and to the digital realm is noise. And it's not the soul. It's that all that in between stuff, which stuff you talk about on here. The in between, the liminal, the, the reason why we talk about even the stuff we don't believe in is because it puts your head in that weird in between space, just the exercise of hearing somebody talk about aliens you decide later you don't believe in. Wrapping your head around it for an hour or two. It makes you realize there's more going on here than meets the eye, right? There is a shamanic sensibility, right? There's, but that's the scary female power nature.

• 36:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 36:53Speaker 02

  Stuff that gets quantized out, right? So those are sort of the two histories I look at. The, the history of, of capitalism and money, right? Which only wants to value things that it can put a, a dollar value on and that will expand the market for the bankers. And then a scientistic view of reality that the only things that matter are the things that have metrics and all the other stuff doesn't. And that's how you end up with this kind of sociopathic marriage. Going, which is like, it's funny. I mean, you want, you want a real conspiracy story that I lived? All right. So I was at a, I was at, I was in my late twenties at my first, like,

• 37:35Speaker 02

  important scientist's party. I had written my first book or two and I'm there and I see Richard Dawkins, right? The selfish gene guy who came up with the term meme, you know, Nobel, whatever scientist dude, Cambridge, the whole thing. And he's there and he's talking about memes and stuff. And he starts saying that, um,

• 37:58Speaker 02

  human beings are just like computers for memes. That, that, that a meme runs a human like a program runs a computer. And that ultimately he had this very reductive view that there's nothing going on here. We're in a completely materialist world. And we're going to live selfishly because our memes and genes tell us to live selfishly. And you know who was there was Naomi Wolf? Remember Naomi Wolf? She, uh, she was a big feminist writer and then she ended up becoming, um, um, kind of a, a MAGA Kennedy.

• 38:33Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 38:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 38:34Danny Jones?

  She's not, the name's not ringing a bell.

• 38:36Speaker 02

  It has to be, yeah.

• 38:38Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay, yes.

• 38:39Speaker 02

  She's been on like Bannon's show a lot. She was anti-vax and I mean, she went from being a kind of a lefty intellectual feminist to

• 38:48Danny Jones?

  She had gray hair.

• 38:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, she kind of horseshoed to the other side of it.

• 38:52Danny Jones?

  Uh huh.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  But at the time, she was, she was

• 38:58Speaker 02

  more, what would the word be? More intellectually dependable to the regular classes, you know? More a New York Times, you know, approved intellectual at that point.

• 39:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  If lefty. She hadn't kind of gone, gone off-road yet. And she was arguing and, and I saw her arguing with Dawkins saying, but isn't there soul? There's something, there's spirit.

• 39:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  And all these dudes, it was like Dawkins and some of the other scientists of that, of that ilk, these, these, you know, God delusion type scientists.

• 39:32Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  Like laughing at her and kind of teasing her and, and, and I tried to defend her because, you know, I was, for a bunch of reasons, but you know, but I wanted her to like me, I guess. You know, and so I'm defending her and, you know, arguing that, that the, the universe doesn't work like they're saying, these other things. And I was bringing up Wittgenstein and systems of meaning. And finally they dismissed me and Dawkins said, oh, you're a moralist. Like, I didn't even know what a moralist is. I was like, dismiss, oh, you're a moralist. As if like, that means Christian or something or a moralist. That I believe we live in a universe that does have some sense of right and wrong. That there is a conscience, that there is an ethical something that humans can do.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  And 10 years later, I see Dawkins and some of the other scientists from that party.

• 40:24Speaker 02

  And a picture on Jeffrey Epstein's Lolita Express. Right? Now, they weren't going to the island. They were going to the TED conference. But I find out that Epstein had funded my literary agent and all the scientists

• 40:40Speaker 02

  conferences and stuff. And I was thinking, you know, so I'm the moralist. And they're the ones who are on Epstein's plane. So what really is going on here is that that the marriage of these things is Epstein funded, and he did, he funded these particularly scientistic kind of anti-spiritual scientists as a way of kind of justifying the exploitation of all these other people. You know, if if people don't have souls, if people aren't even really real, they're not even conscious, they're just kind of machine animals, then it's okay to have a harem of 14 year old girls. What are they're not? They're not

• 41:24Speaker 02

  real, right? Nature, we're going to hold her down by the forlock and submit her to our will because she's just

• 41:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 41:31Speaker 02

  stuck. There's no nothing. And that was when I saw the sort of the sociopathic tendency of the kind of tech bro scientist to look at everything as programmable matter rather than an other, right? There's another person there. That's not a thing to exploit. That's a human. It really dovetailed perfectly with the billionaire sociopathic view of the rest of humanity. And that's how they get to this weird

• 42:01Speaker 02

  version of transhumanism, where the super elite can leave everyone behind in order to pursue

• 42:08Danny Jones?

  I've always wondered, though, what is that something that's baked into us from the from the jump? Or is that something that just happens when you attain that level of financial wealth and power? Is that something that bubbles up out of the human psyche naturally? Because this stuff goes back to like

• 42:27Danny Jones?

  Like early Greece, let's get maybe this stuff.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  Or Pharaoh.

• 42:30Danny Jones?

  Who, what, what is the, the Greek emperor, um, Tiberius? You know, who like famously had like, you know, was like testing and killing children all day long on his island. And, and there's tons of stories of this stuff going back to ancient Greece and ancient Rome and like, and is this just some like freak genetic abnormality in some people that also happens to coincide with becoming a billionaire at the top of society? Or is it, is that what happens when you attain all of that power?

• 43:04Speaker 02

  There's some of both, right? So it is true, and I talk about these actually in, in that book. There are studies that show like, basically you take a billionaire and put them in an MRI machine, show them a picture of like a starving baby. The parts of the your, my brain that would light up and empathy don't for them. So as you, as you get wealthier, your empathy decreases. And it's not that people with low empathy end up doing well, although that might be true too. It's that as you get wealthy, you help less. Wealthier people help less in the street. You, you just do, you have less.

• 43:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 43:39Speaker 02

  You, you do separate. It's, it's part of the way you justify. You have to justify after the fact that you, that you've gotten there.

• 43:46Danny Jones?

  I think it depends on how you got wealthy too.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:49Danny Jones?

  Because I know super wealthy people who are not like that at all.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Some.

• 43:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 43:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, some, but they must have good, good upbringings or strong anchor. The other thing you bring up, which is interesting is some percent, you know, one out of a hundred, five out of a hundred of humans are going to have a sociopathic tendency. That's just the way we are.

• 44:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  You know, one, say five out of a hundred, even 10 are going to have that. So then the question is, is the landscape in which your society is operating, is it a landscape that rewards the sociopath?

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Or or prevents the sociopath from gaining power. So if you look at some of the some, not all, some of the Native American or indigenous cultures, they have a lot of safeguards to prevent a sociopathic, usually male, but not always, but usually sociopathic male from taking over. So they'll have a they'll say, we're going to have a male chief at all times, but we're going to have 10 females who are allowed to veto and change the chief whenever they want. So it's a weird balance. So you get the wisdom of the women and the, you know, macho, whatever, brouhaha of the guy. But he's kept in check by this panel of women who can go, okay, you're out. And then they even had mechanisms, if we really don't like the dictator we're with,

• 45:08Speaker 02

  they were they were migratory societies. People leave, we'll go 50 of us, we're going. This guy's fucking maniac.

• 45:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 45:17Speaker 02

  So you you can build societies around that. And those are called horizontal civilizations. Or you build pyramidal civilizations and they they're throughout history. Pyramid civilizations, you have to climb to the top in order to gain power. And they're optimized for accumulation and control and taking. That's what you do. And then there's horizontal civilizations, like the late Middle Ages time we were talking about. Horizontal civilizations are are optimized for leisure. You know, but we take our productivity and we give it back to everybody in the form of more time. And that one, to me, seems like the more natural human state. What are we here for? We're here to fuck and play and create.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  That's not just stuff you let workers do so they work more. That's the reason we're here. You work in order to have time to fucking play.

• 46:09Danny Jones?

  Right. And now it's becoming you're compiling onto all that stuff, all the digital and all of the separation of humans where people only communicate within via screens and text and dating apps and all that stuff. And like now, I was laughing my ass off when you and Duncan were talking about this, but also injecting themselves with Botox so you can't see their emotions anymore. So not only are they hiding their facial expressions, they're also behind a screen.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 46:35Danny Jones?

  And like, the separation has is becoming exponential on top of all of that stuff. So.

• 46:42Speaker 02

  Right, that is interesting. So we're zooming already. And we're unable to really establish rapport in Zoom. I can't see if your pupils are getting bigger or smaller as I speak.

• 46:50Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  You know, hundreds of thousands of years of painstakingly evolved mechanisms for establishing rapport are thwarted there. And then you're right, then we go into the real world and do other things to prevent rapport.

• 47:01Danny Jones?

  It's like we're on this runaway apocalyptic train that I don't see there's an end. It seems to be coming soon. It doesn't see, I mean, maybe, maybe.

• 47:10Speaker 02

  Oh, it's collapsing. I'm optimistic.

• 47:13Danny Jones?

  I seem to be optimi-, I like to be optimistic about this too, because like I always look at all the stuff that was happening in the sixties when Kennedy got shot and all this other crazy stuff that was happening. Like imagine if we had phones and Instagram back then, you know, imagine how many conspiracies there would be everywhere and how people would be running wild. So, yeah, you know.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  People are getting sick of it though. I mean.

• 47:34Danny Jones?

  They are. They for sure. We're more aware of how unhealthy it is.

• 47:37Speaker 02

  I know, and I feel like kids, not just, I know there's a, every once in a while, there'll be an article about, oh, here's a group of kids that's throwing away their phones and they're only reading books, you know, but they're a tiny group. On the other hand, I was in, I was in Target the other day and right, right in front of the Target, they had, um, I think it was like Taylor Swift's last record or something, but it was in, uh, in vinyl. And I saw this girl buying it and I asked her, she's like a Gen Z-er, um, and I said, oh, that's cool. You're getting, I said, what kind of turntable do you have? She goes, well, I don't have a turntable. I just want the rec. So it was both heartbreaking and sweet at the same time, but that she wants the artifact.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  They want the thing, even if she's listening to it on Spotify, she wants, wants the thing. And I feel like we've kind of reached a place where, you know, I know all the stats say the kids are having less sex.

• 48:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 48:30Speaker 02

  All that. Eventually, I think, I think it's, it's going to come back around.

• 48:36Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:37Danny Jones?

  How does that happen?

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Through sheer nausea and boredom and sadness. It's like, things like sex and meditation and movement and, uh, ecstatic. Have you gone to an ecstatic dance? Done one of those?

• 48:53Danny Jones?

  No.

• 48:53Speaker 02

  It's like, remember rave? Were you around for rave? You know, thousands of people go.

• 48:57Danny Jones?

  I never, I never, I went to maybe one, but.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. So raves was a thousand kids, a hundred beats per minute, taking ecstasy.

• 49:04Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 49:06Speaker 02

  The ecstatic dance night is like 300 people, maybe, not on ecstasy, but like dancing all together, not like with partners, but just like in this thing. And you really do, a few hours in, you end up in a beautiful altered state with people. And it's like,

• 49:27Danny Jones?

  You don't even have to do drugs.

• 49:28Speaker 02

  You don't. It's like, you know, the scene in the second Matrix movie, you know, where they're all, they're dancing. They show the people who are in Zion.

• 49:36Danny Jones?

  I remember.

• 49:37Speaker 02

  Basically Zion is like this kind of,

• 49:39Danny Jones?

  Zion, yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Zion is sort of like a Burning Man kind of rave thing. It really, you reconnect pretty friggin' fast. You know, people go to one of those or one good mushroom ceremony. You know, they, they're just like, oh, okay. I wanna, I wanna live like this, not like that.

• 49:58Danny Jones?

  Yes. I was explaining this, I was explaining this to somebody where there was a, I went to a Metallica concert last year in Tampa. And it was my first time ever going to a Metallica concert. And when I was there, it was like 60,000 people packed into this, it was the, the Buccaneer Stadium, which is a huge outdoor stadium. And what they do is they put this circular stage in the middle of the football field, right? And they put all the people basically gather around, they're in the stadiums too, but it's all on the floor, like in the middle of where the football field would be. And it's like this donut shaped stage. And there's people in the middle, they call it the snake pit too. And there's like these giant towers, the LED towers that show graphics.

• 50:44Danny Jones?

  There's like, there's smoke, there's giant beach balls and the sound is like vibrating through everyone. And it's like, it's hard to describe this like palpable, palpable energy that's there, that just vibrates every fiber of your being. And it's like, you don't have to be on drugs at all, but it's intoxicating. Like this, the sounds, the lights, the energy, the smoke, the, just the ambiance in general, it got me thinking, I'm like, this must've been what like the Eluzanian mysteries were.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Right. Except, you know, it's interesting. So you can do that and, and, and some of the ways we're describing, it's through a kind of a sensory overload that creates a reset. It's a little bit like, You know, they've been doing it since the Roman games, the Nuremberg rallies, a sports game, or a terrific concert. So it's through size. You know, the interesting thing, what I've been trying to play with is, how do you get there through stillness? You know, so you can be bombarded by it, but you can also kind of

• 51:48Speaker 02

  fall into it, you know, and in some ways, like a drum circle of people. There's still stuff, you know, and they're, but you know, it's sort of what David Lynch was describing. He wrote this book on meditation, um, cause he was a big meditator on sort of how you,

• 52:05Speaker 02

  how you, you go into that state, or I know it's tricky for kids now because they're sort of, they're trained on porn, but there's ways of having sex.

• 52:15Danny Jones?

  They're trained on porn. What a crazy thing.

• 52:17Speaker 02

  But you know what I mean?

• 52:18Danny Jones?

  It's like, yeah, no, I know. I know. It's crazy.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  It's what sex is. So, but if, I mean, I invite, I invite young sexually active people to

• 52:31Speaker 02

  go, enter and be still. You know what I mean? Be still and see what that's like. It's like, there's another, you know, I mean, there's a kind of a, an intimacy, a connection, an opening to everything. If you can be, you know,

• 52:48Speaker 02

  passively active and actively passive, you know, if you be yin and yang at the same time, really fall into the moment, you know, and that's the hard thing. That's especially in our society. That's what I've been pushing for now is, how do I be in the now and truly in the moment that I'm in? You know, and not, not let, uh, even my most well-intentioned social justice efforts distract me from exactly where I am in the moment. I mean, here I am, having great water and coffee with you in this gorgeous studio. And I know there's people starving somewhere else and, you know, some kid getting their hand blown off by a IED or something this second. Like, yeah, but, but.

• 53:36Speaker 02

  It's still okay to be, to revel and here we are connecting about this weird shit, you know?

• 53:42Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  It's both, it's both. And if you truly fall into that moment, then you reconnect with all of that stuff again. You know, and that's the kind of weird ass spiritual thing I've been working on lately is how do you kind of metabolize what's going on here? How do you kind of make like a mushroom? How do you be, you know, the, the, how do you, through your very existence, how do you metabolize what's going on in all of its horror and grief, rather than try to make enough money to rise above it, to insulate oneself from it?

• 54:23Danny Jones?

  Like to break out of the system.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  Right.

• 54:26Danny Jones?

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• 55:51Danny Jones?

  everything from, from engineering rockets to the economy, to meditation, religion and all that stuff. Everything is, everything in our lives from, from. Podcasts to rocket engines is is just intertwined and baked into this pyramidal structure. And like, I can't comprehend how, other than what you just said, which I think is great, trying to reconnect with yourself and meditate, how to break that system. I feel like it's gonna take something just like overwhelmingly catastrophic.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  You would think, well, we want the Goldilocks event is what they call it, right? Something that's bad enough to wake us up, but not so bad that it kills us all. You know, we kind of hope that COVID would be that, or maybe the, you know, the Trump prison camps or something would be that, you know, what is it that does that? But, you know, for me, the the easy way to play with it is like, meet your neighbors. You know, go, go ultra local. If if we conclude, like the wealthiest people in the world, that this pyramid's coming down, right? It's, there's gonna be a crash of one sort or another, whether it's, you know, climate crash, or economic crash, or both, or all of them. You know, the, the ocean current we saw, that big ocean wave is is dying down the North Atlantic,

• 57:16Speaker 02

  whatever that thing is. So England's gonna

• 57:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah. In like the magnetosphere or whatever?

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's like

• 57:21Danny Jones?

  The anomaly, yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's bad, no, there's like, the ocean is changing. The, the climate change thing is happening. There's gonna be mass migrations from the coasts. Even the Koch brothers are are investing in it. You know, the people that are saying there's no climate change are investing in what's gonna happen. They, everyone knows. So there's gonna be that thing. And then it's like, we can work to try to prevent it, sure. But I think the more important thing is, how do we soften the landing as much as possible? You know, and the way to soften the landing of an economic, or a, a, a food supply, or an energy crisis is to have very resilient local networks. The more you know your neighbors, it's not like to be a prepper, but to be,

• 58:07Speaker 02

  how can our village, how can our town, whatever area be more sustainable? Where do we get our food? Where do the old people live? Who needs help? How do they get their water? The more that we do for each other, rather than buying it on Amazon, then the more prepared we'll be when Amazon's not delivering. The more, I'm not saying you can do it all overnight, but we can build more resilient communities. And it starts really as simple as, as Meet your neighbor. We don't, we don't really know them. You know, it's when my, I, I, I told this story when my daughter is graduating high school. We had this picture. We got the, you know, the framed picture. Wanted to stick it in the wall. We got plaster walls. I don't want to put a nail in the plaster walls. I got a drill to put a set in there.

• 58:50Speaker 02

  I don't have a drill. So what's my first impulse like any American? Go to Home Depot, get a minimum viable product rechargeable drill. Use it once, stick it in the garage, maybe never use it again, or take it out and it won't recharge and throw it out. Right? So I sent kids into, in the Congo, into the mines to get the rare earth metals for the rechargeable drill. You know, all the carbon that was made to make it. And then I throw it out and it's going to go on a waste dump in Brazil where some other kids are going to pick at it to pull out the renewable part and sell it to Apple so they can call themselves a green company, right? Or I could walk down the street and, you know, knock on the door and say, Bob, can I borrow your drill? Now, why is that so hard? Why? And because, because you know why it's so hard? Because Bob's going to come out and he's going to say, Doug, you're a nerd. You don't know how to drill. I'm going to come over there and I'm going to drill the hole for you.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  He's going to come over, he's going to drill the hole and set it and whatever, and plug it in the wall like it's supposed to be, you know, some rechargeable crap. He's going to do the whole thing. Then that weekend, I'm going to have the barbecue party for my daughter. And Bob's going to be over there working, routing door, whatever he's doing in his garage smelling goes, what's going on? Doug's having a graduation party for his daughter. I drilled the hole for the fucking picture. What's that? Right? So I invite Bob, okay, Bob, come to the house. Now Bob's going to come with his wife and the, and the mother-in-law. And the mother-in-law sees we have a piano and says, oh, you know, we should come over and sing songs for Christmas. And now we're supposed to be friends with those people. And now the neighbors see that Bob's at my barbecue party and want to know, why didn't I invite them? So then I invite them. So now I got the whole block at my daughter's graduation party, having barbecue in my backyard, like a block party.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  And that's the bad thing, right? That's how screwed up we are. Yes. Right? That's the bad, that's the good thing. That's the good thing. Cause then we start talking, well, how did you beat, why did you knock on Bob's door? Well, I needed a drill. He said, you know, we've got every family in this block has its own lawnmower. What if we had two lawnmowers for the whole block and we shared them? And now we don't have to buy as much stuff. We don't have to work as much. We don't have to pollute as much. You know, and I, and I told this story at a, at a conference of those kind of tech pro banker people. And someone got up at the end and said, well, yeah, it's all nice and good, but what about the lawnmower company? People are buying less lawn mowers and their stock's gonna go down.

• 1:00:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  It's gonna hurt the economy. And what about the old lady who's depending on the dividends from her stock in the lawnmower company for her retirement? Now you've just taken food out of her mouth. To which I say,

• 1:01:11Speaker 02

  I don't want to live in a society where the welfare of that old woman is depending on how many lawn mowers we buy. We should be taking care of her. She's part of our neighbor. She's, what kind of society is it that you have to earn enough money in your working years to support yourself entirely by yourself through the rest of your life?

• 1:01:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  It's a non-society. It's an every man for himself competitive economy.

• 1:01:37Danny Jones?

  Yes. And, you know, the, the social media stuff is hugely responsible for that too, because it, it goes back and forth because you have these people that are just competing to attain more wealth so they can have or have bigger Instagram followings or bigger Twitter followings or whatever. So they're incentivized not only to just like run that rat race, but they're also doing this whole other thing on, on social media, trying to like prop up this fake existence to impress more people. And it's spending, they're spending more time on that.

• 1:02:16Danny Jones?

  And it seems like that that is also spiraling into more and more of this control grid system where all those companies are also like intertwined with the government somehow. That's like controlling what can be said, what can't be said. And

• 1:02:36Speaker 02

  I know. Did you see Zucker, Zuckerberg that, that they released these messages that he was agreeing with, uh, um, he told Trump that they weren't gonna, um, that they were censoring, um, negative, uh, Facebook posts on Doge?

• 1:02:50Danny Jones?

  Oh, no. When did this come out?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  Uh, last week.

• 1:02:53Danny Jones?

  Really? No, I didn't see this.

• 1:02:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny. I mean, they did it for Biden, too, with, you know, and not saying bad things about vaccines. And now it's like, OK. So it's like, they didn't change their behavior. They just changed their allegiance.

• 1:03:05Danny Jones?

  Right, right. And that's what I'm afraid of. Like, I'm afraid of like, when it comes to the integration of the tech, the big tech stuff and all of these platforms like Google and Facebook and YouTube and all of that stuff, how they can just turn a dial and try to and like manipulate culture and manipulate humanity and manipulate this sort of like, extra layer, this extra like, this consciousness that lives above us that we're kind of all tapped into.

• 1:03:30Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, and the big name in that, that no one really talks about, everyone talks about teal and musk, it's Larry Ellison.

• 1:03:36Danny Jones?

  Right. Well, Larry, I mean, what? He's buying these companies that are like, nobody really gives a shit about, right? Like CBS and and.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, but he's got, he's got a bigger surveillance infrastructure than Palantir. Oracle was named after a CIA project. The whole thing has been surveillance and control. He's the one, he's, he's on the Board of Peace, you know, in the Middle East. He's got the contract with the IDF to be doing their data and analysis.

• 1:04:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:04:04Speaker 02

  On Israeli Defense Fund, on, on all their intelligence. He's got the highest security clearance his company has in the US government. He's got all of our employment data, because all the companies, big companies, use PeopleSoft as their employee management system. He's got our medical data that he just got, our medical data, and, and he's building the DNA database. He wants a DNA database of everyone in America, everyone in the world. He's got more. And what he wants to do with it is, on the one hand, be able to do, to cure cancer, predict all diseases. On the other hand.

• 1:04:39Danny Jones?

  He wants to help.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Predict crime.

• 1:04:42Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:04:43Speaker 02

  Predict crime. And it depends how you define crime. So what we're looking at is AI being used, yes, in the way you're saying it, to control what the population thinks. But also to monitor and enforce.

• 1:04:56Speaker 02

  Are are uh uh those who don't behave as we want. I mean, the easy thing, I can't imagine they're not already doing it is you use AI and predictive analysis to see, you just look at the blogosphere, look at the at the at the podcast sphere. Whose media and talking is most likely to sow discontent in the population? And let's just throw a couple of tax audits at them, right? You don't need the warehouse, you don't gotta make a martyr, right? I'm not gonna make, if they cart you away, you know, they cart Danny Jones away, that's not good, right? All those people, what happened? You know what I mean? It creates a Charlie Kirk kind of movement around that. You'll become huge.

• 1:05:39Danny Jones?

  Dry sand effect for them.

• 1:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, right. But a few tax audits will just take you off the playing field for a while. If it really, you know what I mean? It's like, ah.

• 1:05:47Danny Jones?

  But they don't even need to do the tax audits. All they need to do is turn a little dial on your reach.

• 1:05:51Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:05:52Danny Jones?

  So like with the shadow banning, they just turn you off in the algorithm so no one sees you anymore. This has happened. This has happened to lots of people I know.

• 1:06:01Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:02Danny Jones?

  It's crazy. So it's not just like they're censoring or they're they're burning the books or whatever. Now they're doing it secretly. So not only not only are they burning the books, but they're doing it and making it invisible. So nobody even knows it's happening.

• 1:06:12Speaker 02

  I know, it is weird, though. It's like if certain posts, it's like, why didn't this one reach 200,000 people? This one's really cool and it reached 2,000 people. What happened there? Right? And they'll they'll have reasons, you know, other reasons. They'll say, oh, because, you know, that one was 7.3 seconds longer than the optimized something or other.

• 1:06:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but we can't see behind the curtain. So we don't know what's really happening.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:06:40Danny Jones?

  But they just have these loose rules that are on all these platforms, these these sort of like vague, ambiguous sort of guidelines that you have to abide by.

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:06:50Danny Jones?

  But you're they're not really like enforcing them. There's no court.

• 1:06:55Speaker 02

  I know. And we think that we're winning or losing the war based on sort of.

• 1:06:58Danny Jones?

  What?

• 1:06:59Speaker 03

  You have an ant on your shoulder.

• 1:07:01Danny Jones?

  I do?

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  Eat it.

• 1:07:03Danny Jones?

  Other shoulder?

• 1:07:04Speaker 02

  It's not an ant. It's a it's a oracle. It's a fucking nano.

• 1:07:08Danny Jones?

  It's a Palantir bee.

• 1:07:09Speaker 02

  It's a Palantir bee.

• 1:07:10Danny Jones?

  I think it went under my shirt. Oh, I'm okay. That's whatever.

• 1:07:13Speaker 02

  It could go penetrate your.

• 1:07:14Danny Jones?

  Steve won't let me kill an ant.

• 1:07:15Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:07:16Danny Jones?

  No.

• 1:07:17Speaker 02

  Oh, because he's a Buddhist?

• 1:07:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's a he's a hippie.

• 1:07:20Speaker 02

  Oh my god. No, but the funny thing is, we think it's like we're competing like against each other in terms of our content.

• 1:07:27Danny Jones?

  On my chest.

• 1:07:28Speaker 02

  Oh, is he?

• 1:07:29Danny Jones?

  He's gone.

• 1:07:29Speaker 02

  You're hurting him.

• 1:07:30Danny Jones?

  I know. I just, I just smashed him into my chest.

• 1:07:32Speaker 02

  It's alright. You're absorbing him.

• 1:07:34Danny Jones?

  Exactly. Yeah, he's getting absorbed into my bloodstream right now.

• 1:07:36Speaker 02

  It's part of your, now your metabolism.

• 1:07:38Danny Jones?

  I'm gonna start tripping balls here in a second.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  I was always thinking about this moment. We used to have this show when I was a kid called Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom. It was like, uh, animal documentary footage in like Africa. And there was, I remember I was a little kid, I saw this and it stayed with me until I figured it out, like last year, like 40 years later. Of the, you know, the gazelle is running and the cheetah's running after it and the cheetah jumps on the gazelle and the gazelle kind of struggles for a while and then you see the gazelle stop and its eyes kind of glaze over. And I always thought about that moment. What's the gazelle thinking? And why does it give up? You know, why does it stop?

• 1:08:15Speaker 02

  And, and then I realized there was this moment that the gazelle realizes, I am now cheetah food. I'm cheetah food. That's what I am. I am now more cheetah than I am gazelle. And it, it, not that it's blissful, but a little bit like those vampire movies, you know, when the, the person getting bit finally goes, ah, you know? That there's this moment of, of, it's scary to say it. I'm sure this is what like masochists or sadists or something are all in. There's a moment of, of bliss in the surrender. So it's like, I'm thinking about because of the, the ant on you, that when the ant finally, if it's, it's like absorbed, the ant becomes Danny. The ant is part of you, you know?

• 1:09:02Speaker 02

  But it's, I mean, it's, I know it's an anti-peta justification for eating animals or something, but, but there is that we are metabolizing each other. Everything. It's, it's, life is.

• 1:09:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:14Speaker 02

  Things go into other things like that. It's the way, it's the way it is. And I feel like the, the tech bro mentality we're talking about, they're at the one hand, they're resisting that. They don't want to be part of that. They don't want to be in the swirl. And on the other hand, they're using it as an excuse to be fucking sadists, right? It's okay for all these thousands of kids in the Congo to be going into mines at gunpoint as slaves to build the chips for my AI that I'm gonna use to solve the world's problems and make a trillion dollars and get off the planet.

• 1:09:48Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. Totally. Yeah. That's, that's a crazy thing. I think that when the, when the, going back to what you're saying about the animals, which is kind of not to your point, but I think it's interesting. Uh, I think that when that happens, when the animal starts eating them, I think they start probably tripping. I think it's for like a DMT trip.

• 1:10:08Speaker 02

  Like something gets released in their brain?

• 1:10:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah, like a, like a, like a breakable glass capsule in the brain or something that goes pshh. And then all of a sudden you're just like shuttled into like another dimension.

• 1:10:19Speaker 02

  Right. But that dimension, in other words, you're tripping. I like that you're saying you're tripping. It's not like it's morphine. It's not like you just shut down your nervous system.

• 1:10:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:10:27Speaker 02

  That you trip, so you return to, you get to see the way things are. In other words, so when you're in this dimension here trying to like, okay, we gotta have some, you gotta keep this life form alive. You gotta do this stuff in order to promote your DNA. And it's like, okay, you're dying. Here's how things are.

• 1:10:43Danny Jones?

  Nothing matters anymore.

• 1:10:44Speaker 02

  You're one, you're one with everything. It's all good. It's all part of this world. Welcome home. Welcome home.

• 1:10:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. Because, and it's like the DMT thing, like when, like DMT feels like death, it feels like you're actually dying sometimes. Right? Like you're disconnected from everything in the material world. And all of a sudden, whatever is in there, whatever consciousness is, seems to be shuttling through like a different dimension and a different, a different universe, right? And like everything that's around us is its own organism, but not a material organism. It's like something that you can't really touch. It's not tangible. It's a hard, it's hard even to put into words.

• 1:11:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:25Danny Jones?

  I think that I think that could be it because I don't know what my I've been thinking about that lately because my algorithm's been feeding me all these videos of people being eaten by sharks.

• 1:11:33Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:11:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah. For some reason, my Twitter algorithm and my Instagram algorithm is feeding me all this crazy stuff of people getting eaten by animal eaten by animals. Very weird.

• 1:11:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Danny Jones?

  I don't know why. So much death on internet on the internet lately.

• 1:11:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I've been off social media and it's a little hypocritical because I create now I create content for social media. I used to just do my podcast, just as an audio podcast. You can download it. Everything was organic, you know, no Gary Vaynerchuk micro content, anything. And now what I'm doing, because I got a sponsor for I'm just trying and I moved it to video.

• 1:12:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:08Speaker 02

  On just on YouTube too, because all the kids watch it on YouTube. They'll even they'll start watching it in the, you know, the behavior is they open another tab and then they listen to it in the background.

• 1:12:16Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:12:17Speaker 02

  But if you've got to be on the YouTube, because who wants to sit and just watch the video for that long, you know, but they want to hear it. But um, I um, I make micro content on on Instagram or YouTube reels and all.

• 1:12:29Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 1:12:30Speaker 02

  I'm not making micro content to get them to come to the podcast. I feel like I'm making the podcast in order to be able to create micro content to reach other people. I'm thinking of it in terms of cultural transformation. How do I get, you know, the sort of, you know, pockets of of of smartness? How do I? How do I create, you know, sparks of intelligence out there? You know, so the podcast is kind of funding the social. It's not the social as feeder content because they don't, they don't go from, they're not for me and they don't click on a watch a good TikTok and go, I'm gonna listen to the two hour version of that.

• 1:13:13Danny Jones?

  Right, right. No, those are totally different people, I think, that do the TikTok.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  But I like reaching them.

• 1:13:17Danny Jones?

  Sure, yeah, totally. Do you? Did you recently stop using social media as like a entertainment?

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  2013.

• 1:13:26Danny Jones?

  2013?

• 1:13:27Speaker 02

  It was when Facebook started the policy of where they would, they could use your posts as advertising.

• 1:13:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  It was that it was one of the, one of the things that they tried. And I was just like, oh, fuck this shit. I'm sick of it.

• 1:13:37Danny Jones?

  Wow, that was a long ass time ago.

• 1:13:39Speaker 02

  And I played on Twitter when when Evan Williams started Twitter, the very early Twitter. I was on there, the 140 character thing, using it to send links to things and it was interesting. Um, and I played around on there, but um, I got sick of it before um, once the algorithm was tweaked to sensationalism. It was just like, I, I felt, I mean, maybe I'm overly sensitive, but um, I didn't feel good physically after I'd be on it. You know, and it's like email is hard, hard enough.

• 1:14:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Speaker 02

  I wanted less screen time. I wanted to do yoga and stuff.

• 1:14:14Danny Jones?

  I need to take a break from it to see how you feel. I've heard people, friends talk to me about like taking like month breaks from it, from the scrolling stuff. And like they literally feel like a physiological difference.

• 1:14:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:25Danny Jones?

  They feel healthier. They don't feel as bogged down.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  No, I'll tell you, I did, um, I've been bogged down anyway, just because of the way I live my life. I'm doing too much work, too many jobs and all that. But I um, took my first vacation like 25 years. I, the last time I went on vacation was 1999.

• 1:14:41Danny Jones?

  What?

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  When the, yeah, when the, remember the planes were supposed to fall out of the sky because the Y2K bug.

• 1:14:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:14:46Speaker 02

  They didn't know. So um, and I just, because I'm, I'm a writer, thinker, artist person, and in some ways I don't have a job, so I don't need a vacation. But I didn't really imply, I went to Costa Rica. I did this crazy thing. You gotta get someone from this called um, ISTA. Have you ever heard of this?

• 1:15:00Danny Jones?

  No.

• 1:15:00Speaker 02

  The International School of, of Temple Arts. It's kind of like sexual shamanism. Oh my God, it's intense. But just being off that and doing sort of meditation and weird practices for a week in Costa Rica, eating that totally natural food. And I come back and it's like, I realize every ping from one of these devices, every email, it's all, it's fake. There's this, there's this reality that we're in, right? That you touch it when you're tripping or having sex or you meditate or you're in an art. It's like, it's a shamanic thing. You can feel when someone shitty is coming around the corner. You can feel, you know what I mean?

• 1:15:41Speaker 02

  You can, there's, there's, I believe, retro causality coming from the, you can feel events from the future rippling back in time. You can feel, this is real. This is the way that real things, that's why you see birds fly before the storm and the shit. It's not all physics. A lot of it's. This thing, this thing that we're in, this this thing.

• 1:16:02Danny Jones?

  And That's how our brains evolved.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and our hearts and our gut biomes and our busy, our, our, our, our, our nethers. And these devices and these things and these systems are, it's almost as if they've been designed to distract us and occlude that, right? It's back nature by the forelock, right? To hold her down. And so we submit to the will of the system. But when you rediscover, it's like I've re-founded again, it's like, I don't want to let it go. I don't want to, it's like, it's too, it's luscious, you know?

• 1:16:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, I like to what you're saying like that. There's something baked into us that has probably evolved for millions of years that is tapped us into nature and made us because, because we've become sort of unlike any other species on earth that sort of like lives in this symbiosis with nature. Right? We're sort of like, we have become the one species that doesn't really fit.

• 1:17:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:17:07Danny Jones?

  Right? Like, we don't, we don't really add anything back to, we don't give back, right? To nature at all, like every, every other animal in the rainforest does. But we sort of like exist outside of that.

• 1:17:20Speaker 02

  Right, we're out, right, me, like, like most or all other animals are kind of part of some symbiotic circularity.

• 1:17:28Danny Jones?

  All the way down to phytoplankton, you know?

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Right, and it's circular and we live in this linear thing.

• 1:17:32Danny Jones?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:17:33Speaker 02

  You know, where it has, has, has externalities and waste, or at least the illusion of one and progress to some future. We have like forever chemicals, like, you know?

• 1:17:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:17:42Speaker 02

  Mice don't make forever chemicals, they pee.

• 1:17:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Speaker 02

  So what, what is that, that one way thing that we're on?

• 1:17:48Danny Jones?

  And when you go into like the woods and stuff, and I've had multiple people explain this to me, like when you go into the woods, whether it be, you know, like the redwoods or the Amazon rainforest and you're completely disconnected from the grid. And you're in this like, almost like another universe when you're in the woods, right? You, you, you are almost tapped into another realm. It's like these, these buried senses start bubbling up to the surface. We're now like the sound of the branches and the birds and the footsteps and the insects. All that stuff is sort of like another language that. We used to be able to understand and now it's kind of like bubbling back up.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you can without tripping. Um, if you're in, you put your hand on a tree, you know, there's something there. That's it's a living thing with a kind of, I don't know whether to call it consciousness, but a presence.

• 1:18:47Danny Jones?

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:18:49Speaker 02

  It's there, you know? Uh huh. And it's like, once you kind of get that, it's like, boy, what about befriending this place? I mean, I understand why we didn't. Big things would come and eat us. You know, it was scary. I remember watching, you know, Kubrick's Space Odyssey 2001. Those little caveman creatures. There's this one scene where they're like sitting on this cliff at night and they're shivering. And you hear this like, like some saber tooth tiger out in the somewhere walking around. And they're just sitting up, you know, how many hundreds of thousands of years did we as a species just sit and going, huh? You know, that's going to breed an Elon Musk, right? It's what's.

• 1:19:28Danny Jones?

  Right, yeah, it's kind of inevitable, right?

• 1:19:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's bizarre.

• 1:19:35Speaker 02

  But we didn't, you know, but we did have, uh, we did have these sort of indigenous societies and not just and, and other ones that did develop in other ways. There are, you know, there's that great book Donna Civilization that writes about all these different civilizations that happen. We think it's just this one line from, you know, sort of, you know, Israel and Greece to Europe to us. And it's like, no, there's, there's a ton of others and that have risen and fallen throughout history. Some of them, you know, like.

• 1:20:05Danny Jones?

  That we probably don't know about.

• 1:20:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, a lot of them.

• 1:20:07Danny Jones?

  Before written language, you know?

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:20:10Danny Jones?

  Before recorded history. I had this psychologist on a couple, maybe a couple of months ago, who was explaining to me her take on like written language. How she was explaining how like the story of Adam and Eve in the garden, eating the forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge was like a deviation from.

• 1:20:34Danny Jones?

  From inherent knowledge to trusting the written word. And she was explaining how the written word, you know, we get everything that we've got, going back to recorded history has been, we rely largely on writing and text and stuff like that. Obviously, we use things like archaeology and other stuff to corroborate all that. But like the written word is inherently deceptive.

• 1:21:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:03Danny Jones?

  Because it enables you to lie and it gets you away from intuition.

• 1:21:07Speaker 02

  Yep. This is why I became a media theorist. That's in theory, my job, right? Is looking at that. You can look at the whole Bible, the whole thing as a ethical manual for a society that was transitioning from an oral society to a written society. It's the whole thing. It's called the axial age was when we started writing things down. Once we wrote things down, we got two things. We got history. Cause now you could write down your history, what happened? And we got contracts into the future. But now you could, you could bind someone in the future, the way you couldn't before. Now you've got that there. So you end up with this, that's what sort of invented this linear

• 1:21:51Speaker 02

  notion of time that we didn't have before writing. You just went by the seasons. It's next winter, plant the crops. Once you could write it down, this happened and that happened and this happened. And then what happens is God promises Abraham, oh, and your future generations? If you do this for me, you know, don't kill your kid, but cut his little penis, do something, whatever. Then, then, then I will reward you in the future. You know, and there'll be a Masonic age, Messianic age, there'll be all this stuff. So we ended up in the society that, that, that values its past as its origin story. We own this land. This is our thing. We deserve this. And we have our inevitable, our Messiah is going to come and save the day and do all that. So we get the linear story and we lose, we lose that.

• 1:22:36Danny Jones?

  And we're combining it with the, with thermonuclear weapons.

• 1:22:40Speaker 02

  Well, it's an end game, the alpha to the omega, you know? Where, where before that, before writing, our spiritual, our spiritualities, they didn't have future point, they didn't have, there was no goal.

• 1:22:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  It was, it was a way of being.

• 1:22:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and then, you know, also before all that, there was a plethora of religions and, you know, these secret societies and religious cults and stuff, and people worshipped multiple gods.

• 1:23:10Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:23:10Danny Jones?

  And there was no one exclusive god until like this whole biblical canon came about and like the Council of Nysia to include this book and this was the doctrine and we had to follow this. And that was kind of like what shuttled society into what it is now. And like all the other gods, you're a pagan if you do any of that stuff and burn down the Temple of Eleusis. No more drugs. That's bad. And.

• 1:23:34Speaker 02

  Yeah. In some ways, the pagan gods, long term, did better in that deal. You know, I was watching, I guess it was during COVID, I started to get obsessed with all those Viking shows. You watch any of those Viking shows? They're really good. You know, like Netflix and they do these long, you know, four season sagas of Vikings, but they have like Odin is their god, Odin and Thor and all these. And the Viking gods didn't stay alive in church, but they stayed alive in like popular culture and comics and movies. So they were allowed to sort of almost live better

• 1:24:12Speaker 02

  lives. They could morph and, and, and get refined by sort of successive, you know, TV shows and comics and popular culture things. So in some ways, they got to live in a way that, you know, the, the kind of the Jesus or Mohammed gods were sort of locked down, you know, they're in their, in their first or second century form and not allowed to, to sort of iterate with culture. So I kind of like, you know, I'm into like Grant Morrison and Alan Moore and those guys who are, are sort of imbuing popular culture and comics and novels with these spiritual

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  sensibilities. Cause they've sort of, in some ways they're, even though they're pop culture or low culture, in some ways they've gotten more, more evolved because they've been allowed to, allowed to simmer and change.

• 1:25:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's really, that's really interesting.

• 1:25:10Danny Jones?

  But yeah, what, what do you make of like, the fact that there's this merging going on of like, on one hand, you have this super advanced, unbelievably high-tech group of people that run the world, who are embracing ancient texts, and sort of using like, this ancient writing as like, an excuse to do whatever they can to control the world?

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  It's weird. I, I think about it a lot, and then I look at each one of them seems to be doing it for a different reason with a different philosophy.

• 1:25:51Danny Jones?

  Uh huh.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  You know, like Musk is getting over a childhood, trying to spread his seed as far as possible. Thiel is gay and wants to be transformed and awakened. Oracle and Larry Ellison are kind of like Rupert Murdoch power family. You know, Trump and his people are just sort of, you know, kind of low-life, you know, organized crime criminals, you know, using government to get lots of money.

• 1:26:16Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  And it's like, and there are all these different ones. And then there's some, um, genuine kind of Christian believers who want to get Israel and bring on the, the messianic age. Then there's like, the chameleons like J.D. Vance, who are like, everything, everyone, depending on who's gonna give them the money or whatever. So it's like, it's really hard. It, it, it looks like kind of strange bedfellows, or a, an amalgamation of, of people who have very different reasons for supporting this kind of, um, this kind of regime. I mean, Justin, I'm not saying that they're equal opportunity. The, the left had a very different amalgamation of people. I mean, what makes these, the left

• 1:27:01Speaker 02

  and right not really work, is that the people in them don't really have common interests, for the most part. They don't have common cause. But it is weird, the, um...

• 1:27:13Speaker 02

  That there are people in the White House now who go to prayer services, like in the White House, in Congress, where they say, "The Jews killed Jesus," or, "Let's do, we're going to bomb Iran so that the Messiah sees the fire and comes down to earth." When you've actually got some people who will say it just to get approval, and then there's people who actively believe it. And if we're working on those, I'm fine for people to have faith, but you don't, don't, this is what the, why they're so mad at the Pope, and the Pope is saying, "It's good to have faith and all that, but like, don't blow people up for your faith."

• 1:27:56Speaker 02

  That's, you know, there, there's this sort of papal doctrine on when you do war and when you don't. And that, that, that, the international laws around, around war are based on these, this Catholic doctrine. And Catholic doctrine basically says, "You don't, like, go to war on somebody unless they're doing something really bad to someone else." Like, unless they're actively bullying somebody, you don't attack. And even if you do, you can, but then you don't use, don't say you're doing it for religious reasons, right?

• 1:28:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:30Speaker 02

  So now they really, they really, they're mad, they're mad at the Pope, the, the war ones.

• 1:28:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah, because the Pope was, the Pope was talking shit about, or talking, no, wasn't talking shit, but basically he was like going against everything that our government's doing right now, and that's bad because we're trying to paint, they're trying to paint everything as like this big Christian thing.

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:28:49Danny Jones?

  And trying to promote this war based on, there was a crazy story that came out where like the, the generals were trying to, they were talking to their, their subordinates and telling them that like Trump was like commanded by Christ to do this.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was, the guy who broke that's my friend, Jonathan Larson, he's got this great, Substack, yeah, called The Fucking News.

• 1:29:09Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:29:10Speaker 02

  He's so cool.

• 1:29:11Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, I saw that.

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, The Fucking News is the one who broke it, T F N. And it's great. They got this logo instead of like the Facebook thumbs up. It's in Facebook style. It's a figure. Perfect. Perfect. But, uh, yeah, they, they were, um, yeah, troops were complaining because their generals and their commanders were telling them, you know, we're fighting, you know, we're fighting to bring back Christ.

• 1:29:35Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:29:36Speaker 02

  Christ will come back.

• 1:29:36Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're not supposed to do that.

• 1:29:38Danny Jones?

  No, that's not a good, you're not supposed to do that.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  Well, at least we say that, but now there's people who believe we should.

• 1:29:45Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  You know, and I get it. They think it's a Christian nation and that, that America can be, America and Trump are instruments of, uh, a kind of a triumphalist vision of Christ. Not, this is like nothing but Christ said or did. I mean, it's not, it's not Bible Christ.

• 1:30:03Danny Jones?

  It's not Christ-like at all.

• 1:30:04Speaker 02

  Right, but it's, there is a religion that's been built around Christ. It's a, you know, legitimate religion. It's got churches and stuff where the idea is, um, to, you know, you, we do what we can to bring about the, the apocalypse.

• 1:30:21Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:21Speaker 02

  You know, so that, so then, you know, so we gotta get the Jews, gotta own Israel or Greater Israel, which is like a bunch of other countries. And then once that happens and there's the Red Heifer and, you know, all those things happen, then boom, right? And there's some, you know, Jewish cults that believe that and some Christian cults, but that's the Washington DC, that's the prayer breakfast group. That's the prayer breakfast cult.

• 1:30:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:46Speaker 02

  That's their vision of how, of how it goes. Therefore you need sort of American triumphalism.

• 1:30:51Danny Jones?

  I don't know what's crazier, the fact that that's true or the fact that everybody in society has access to that information and that knowledge.

• 1:31:01Speaker 02

  And they're not freaking out about it.

• 1:31:04Danny Jones?

  Right. Exactly. That, that whole thing combined with all the Epstein thing they dumped on us.

• 1:31:11Speaker 02

  Everyone's got their own thing. So it's like, even if like, oh, I'm gonna be all mad about that, I'm gonna be mad about that, but then it's like, oh, look, Trump just signed that psilocybin's legal. It's like, Joe Rogan, it's like, Joe Rogan, I don't like Trump, I don't like Trump. Then it's like, oh, well, I think I'll show up for that one, you know, and it's like. Every once in a while, they throw you a bone. But the thing is, we shouldn't be living in a society where our dictator has so much power that they throw you a bone for you to then.

• 1:31:34Danny Jones?

  I think Trump's probably getting so desperate because he's losing so much popular support from the people that lobbied for him so much during that when he was running.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  I know that Marjorie Taylor Greene and this one and that one.

• 1:31:45Danny Jones?

  I think he probably, I don't know, I have no inside knowledge, but if I was to guess, I would guess that he saw an opportunity to do something that he knew Joe would like. And he's like, hey, man, I'll do this for you. I'll get the FDA approval. Will you, will you come to the White House and be in front of the camera with me? I bet you he asked him to do that and like put Joe on the hot seat and then.

• 1:32:08Speaker 02

  Yep. And it helps with all the, because the RFK thing.

• 1:32:11Danny Jones?

  That helps Trump way more than it helps Joe.

• 1:32:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. And the RFK stuff was going shitwalled, you know?

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• 1:33:17Speaker 02

  That, that, I don't even know the whole story, but you know, RFK lost all his popularity and changed his mind about this and the vaccine thing and the measles. So the whole sort of RFK, you know, uh, health nut, new age, you know, to get that contingent wasn't working. It was like, you legalize mushrooms, man? You get, you know, you kind of win a whole lot of that, that sort of failed FDA people.

• 1:33:40Danny Jones?

  Right. It is a, it is a, it's a small victory.

• 1:33:42Speaker 02

  Right. That's like, it's like celebrating the gut biome or something, you know?

• 1:33:48Speaker 02

  Oh my God. Oh, I got, can I pee and come back?

• 1:33:51Danny Jones?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  Cause that's the main thing I did. I got a pull-up bar. And I went from, I could do one pull-up. Now I'm like at six.

• 1:34:00Danny Jones?

  That's great. Yeah. And then, and then just try to like increase, increase the amount you do and then start increasing the weight. And you don't have to do a lot of them. Just do 10, do 10 reps of a weight that's like you can barely do.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:34:13Danny Jones?

  Comfortably without hurting yourself. And um, and yeah, keep doing that. There's lots of, there's lots of supplements you can take. Creatine's a great one.

• 1:34:21Speaker 02

  I got that.

• 1:34:22Danny Jones?

  Creatine's a good thing, a good daily thing that you can use.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  And machines are all right? Someone said, don't you use machines? Only do free weights?

• 1:34:28Danny Jones?

  Oh no, machines are fine. Yeah.

• 1:34:30Speaker 02

  Cause it feels like I'm so much less likely to get injured.

• 1:34:33Danny Jones?

  Machines are totally fine. Yeah. Yeah. You don't, that person's crazy. Um, I prefer machines, honestly.

• 1:34:42Danny Jones?

  But yeah, lots of um,

• 1:34:47Danny Jones?

  the more you can do outside is the better, is way better.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Oh really? Cause the oxygen?

• 1:34:52Danny Jones?

  Not, no, cause the light. Yeah. It's better to do stuff outside. Um, it's better like for me, like if I wake up like early and I get like out and like the, when the sun's still rising. And to do some, just like, like some activity out there, like in the morning, like, and also like, you don't have to think of it like this big task. You just like, if you just keep some weights around your house, you can like, you can microdose it.

• 1:35:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:35:18Danny Jones?

  You know, like before work or whatever, just for five minutes, lift some weights, do some push-ups, stuff like that.

• 1:35:23Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:35:23Danny Jones?

  Just like throughout, like work it into your day. You don't have to do, you don't have to go crazy.

• 1:35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:27Danny Jones?

  And then eventually you'll, eventually you'll start to see some progress and you'll get more and more in tune with it and

• 1:35:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:32Danny Jones?

  It'll work.

• 1:35:32Speaker 02

  No, cause it's good. I got like nice little stringy uh, uh, like Bruce Lee muscles. Which is kind of, I mean, they came from nowhere. They really came from nowhere. Like two weeks in, I was like, oh.

• 1:35:43Danny Jones?

  That's great. A lot of people, a lot of people, um,

• 1:35:48Speaker 02

  Cause I had no fat, so I didn't have to work off fat to get muscle. I was just bone.

• 1:35:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:35:53Speaker 02

  So it came from, it was easier, it's easier to grow it than, I guess, than.

• 1:35:57Danny Jones?

  Creatine's a great way to do it. Um, do you get your blood work often? Have you gotten your blood work?

• 1:36:03Speaker 02

  I mean, I sure, yeah.

• 1:36:05Danny Jones?

  You can test your hormone levels and there's things you can do to like optimize your testosterone level. And if you can get your testosterone level optimized, it'll really help with muscle growth and not just that, but like, like, uh, mental clarity, all kinds of things. Sleep gets better, recovery gets better, more energy, all kinds of stuff. It's like a, it's amazing.

• 1:36:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll do it for real. Cause I look at online, oh, get Tribulus, get this, get that. You know, there's all these names of shit, but yeah, I'm going random if I, I should have a professional.

• 1:36:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah. There's a ton, there's a ton of stuff you can do to optimize, but for like the weights, for, for like the, um, the weightlifting stuff, you don't have to go crazy.

• 1:36:43Speaker 02

  You're not a big, you're not a daily gym kinda guy then?

• 1:36:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I, I, I, I, I am a daily exercise guy. I do a lot of cardio stuff. And I do, like when I, I have a gym in the other room here and I do heavy weights. I have like a sled that I push. I have lots of weights, like kettlebells and stuff like that. But I do it, I don't do it every day. I do it maybe two days a week, but I just go, I go really hard when I do do it. So I'll just do as much weight as I possibly can until I'm just like exhausted, but.

• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  Cause you've got babies, right?

• 1:37:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I got three. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot.

• 1:37:16Speaker 02

  I know.

• 1:37:17Danny Jones?

  It's a lot.

• 1:37:18Speaker 02

  And there's like no amount of money that changes that either, you know? I mean, I guess it could if you're an asshole, but.

• 1:37:23Danny Jones?

  What do you mean changes it?

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  You know, the changes, the amount of work it is having to get, you know?

• 1:37:30Danny Jones?

  No, no, I try to spend as much time as I possibly can with them, you know? I don't want to be an absent, an absent father. And then like, you know, like the other thing is, you know, you don't want to give them too much. You don't want to make them feel like they have, like an easy way. They're not thinking of it. You don't want to make them feel like they're going to have an easy way through life or that they have any money or that they have any sort of like backup.

• 1:37:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:37:55Danny Jones?

  Kinda wanna make them feel like it's.

• 1:37:58Danny Jones?

  It's like that, it's like that fourth turning thing, you know, where it's like the hard times, you heard the saying, it's like uh

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  We should record.

• 1:38:08Danny Jones?

  Are we rolling? Yeah, we're still rolling. It's that, it's that, that fourth turning phrase where it's like hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men. You know what I mean? And like, I grew up with not any, I didn't grow up with no money. But I grew up around a lot of kids, a lot of my friends were very wealthy. You know, and there was like a big difference between us. You can see, you know, people that by and large, I would say most people that grew up with a lot of money, with really rich parents. They don't always seem to be like the most interesting, adaptable people.

• 1:38:43Speaker 02

  No, it was always like people had money and no class or class and no money. I used to think we were rich because I lived in the suburbs. You know, and we had two cars. We didn't, you know, we got our clothes from Sears Roebuck catalog, but you know, it seemed fine. Then I got into Princeton and went there and was like, oh, that's what rich is. You know, there's people who like had like country, like the girl there, her last name was Rhodes, like Rhodes Scholar, like Rhodesia. You know, like Timmy Forbes, it's like Forbes, it was like, those were the people. I was like, oh my God. And they would, they would, they would go to New York every weekend and have these, you know, Park Avenue things or oh, we're having a party, oh, this weekend, where? Oh, Martha's Vineyard, well, send the plane around.

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  You know, it's like, geez.

• 1:39:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I kind of got blasted into that world when I was really young too, because one of my first jobs ever was working for this car magazine called the DuPont Registry. And it was, I was surrounded by the DuPonts. You know, and all these people who were flying around in jets and driving in Ferraris and stuff like this. And I was like, whoa. I got to like, spend some time at their parties and hanging out at their houses and like, you know, rubbing shoulders with their kids. It was like, God, this is a whole different world. It was like crazy that I was like even in the same room as these people.

• 1:40:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I quickly realized when I got invited to one of those events, I only got to like two or three things. I was the entertainment.

• 1:40:13Danny Jones?

  You should tell your Epstein story. You went to a party? Didn't you go to a party?

• 1:40:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it was sort of the same, the same people. I mean, what I was talking about before, the whole that Dawkins crowd. Yeah, I went. It was, this was really funny. I, um, so after I went to that, I didn't, you know, hang out with those people much anymore. I'd kind of disgraced myself, I think, and my agent by challenging the great Richard Dawkins on the, on his atheism and being a weird ass spiritual psychedelic kid.

• 1:40:44Danny Jones?

  Didn't you, I was listening to you and Duncan talk about it. You brought a lesbian to an Epstein party. That was a big, that was a no-no.

• 1:40:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know. Yeah, well, it was, it wasn't, I didn't know it was an Epstein party. I mean, Epstein wasn't famous yet. This was the late 90s. But it turned out to be an Epstein party. But no, it was a party of, um, supposed to be these, the scientists and tech bros. It was called like Millionaire Dinner or something, Millionaire Dinner Club. So it had a bunch of the, the people who are running the big tech companies at that time. And, um, and then the famous scientists. And this guy, this, this literary agent invited me to go to it. And, um, I was like, oh, this is like my chance to really meet the movers and shakers and all. And he said, um, you can have a plus one. He said, but make it a really good plus one. Cause this is, make it, make it count.

• 1:41:35Speaker 02

  And I figured, so I, I thought like, who's the smartest person I know? Right? So there was this woman, um, in Brooklyn who ran this literary web scene, early web days. But she, really smart, the kind of person who can finish your thought before you've even had it. You know, one of those. And I thought, okay, I'll bring her. So, and she said, sure, I'll go. So I bring, I go there and the host of the thing, as soon as he sees her, he takes, he grabs me on the, I can still feel it, pulls me aside and he goes, "How dare you waste your plus one on a, on a ugly lesbian."

• 1:42:13Speaker 02

  Actually, he said ugly dyke, I think. And um.

• 1:42:16Danny Jones?

  How did he know that she was lesbian? Was it obvious?

• 1:42:18Speaker 02

  I guess. I don't know. Maybe he knew her better than I or whatever, looked up her wiki. I had no idea. I didn't know. I was like, she's lesbian. Oh darn.

• 1:42:27Danny Jones?

  Looked up on MySpace.

• 1:42:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I didn't think she was ugly, you know, and I didn't know she was a lesbian. That still don't necessarily, but um.

• 1:42:34Danny Jones?

  You were supposed to bring a young, hot, big-breasted.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  I was like, what are you talking about? And he's like, you were supposed to, I invited you, because I was East Village twenty-something. I invited you so you'd raise the quotient of the party. And he goes, look. And at the tables, it's all middle-aged guys with these very, in some cases, too young.

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  Girls that look like they could be seniors at Dalton, right?

• 1:43:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:43:05Speaker 02

  And it's only like

• 1:43:09Speaker 02

  ten, twenty years later, I realize, oh, those dinners, including, were paid for by Epstein. These were, these are Epstein-funded dinners. I mean, they were essentially dinners for scientists to,

• 1:43:23Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:43:23Speaker 02

  you know, become part of culture and all that, and to meet potential funders. I mean, there was a lot of, you know, it was the tech-science-funder world, you know, and they're together. You could still go to conferences and find all those people together, but it was like, oh, you know, but I remember once that I had such, I'm an innocent. I had such a sick feeling in my stomach about what is this? And this is, am I, should I be more cool? Should I have known? Should I be going out with someone hot? Should I? And it's like, this is, this was, I was kind of immersed in, suddenly in the sort of wealthy, toxic, male, Epstein value system. And, you know, ended up just staying away, you know, I.

• 1:44:11Speaker 02

  They just stayed away from them for years.

• 1:44:13Danny Jones?

  It's so funny. Like you have to bring this accessory, this human accessory.

• 1:44:18Speaker 02

  Right. But you, but you realize how people fall into that. I mean, I should have been a more impressionable 28 year old or whatever, but I was already kind of set in my ethical ways. But if you're a scientist and you're not getting laid and whatever, and now you're in this thing and there's millionaires and other scientists and, and it creates a sort of a, a, a permission

• 1:44:38Danny Jones?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:44:40Speaker 02

  Around doing a key stuff. It's like, oh, really? Look, there's Noam Chomsky over there. Right? You know, and he's as lefty as it gets. And he's kind of saying, oh, it's a, he's a friend of, friend of the things.

• 1:44:50Danny Jones?

  Stephen Hawking's over there getting a lap dance. I'm good.

• 1:44:52Speaker 02

  So it's like, I guess this is really, and I know the arguments they'll make. It's like, look, since ancient Greece, you know, scientists and men, they do it and it's, and, and these young women are getting something out of it. They're there, they're giving consent. They're going to get professional things. They're meeting you. You know, how much better is it for them to be with you?

• 1:45:10Danny Jones?

  They weren't dragged here against their will.

• 1:45:11Speaker 02

  Right. They're going to want to be with some 17 year old who's going to come in 20 seconds. It's like, no, they're going to be taken in and cared for and you appreciate them and honor them. You'd create a, you can create a, a story around, around that kind of abuse.

• 1:45:25Danny Jones?

  Totally. Yeah.

• 1:45:27Speaker 02

  You know, and there but for the grace of God go we, right? Cause anyone could be frustrated and, and tempted into that.

• 1:45:34Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. A hundred percent. Yeah, no, I had actually had a guy on here a couple of weeks ago who was telling us a story about how Jeffrey Epstein wanted to meet with him. And they ended up doing a Skype call and he's like, basically like looked him up. This was before all, I think this was before his first arrest and in the early 2000s.

• 1:45:56Danny Jones?

  And he was like, oh yeah, this guy's funding all of the smartest people I know. Why wouldn't I do a 20 minute Zoom call with him? So he did a 20 minute Skype call with the guy.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:03Danny Jones?

  And he, he said Jeffrey Epstein was just sitting on the Skype call to asking him to tell him stories about spoon bending and telepathy for like 20 or 30 minutes.

• 1:46:12Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:46:13Danny Jones?

  Like he was fascinated with this paranormal ESP type stuff.

• 1:46:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Danny Jones?

  I mean, that combined with all this other occult stuff that he was into and then Ghislaine was into with like, we were talking about before, I don't know if we were recording, but we were talking about the Temple of Poseidon.

• 1:46:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:26Danny Jones?

  Earlier and her obsession with like the lost city of Atlantis and all this stuff. And then you combine that with the eugenics stuff that he was interested in and like.

• 1:46:36Speaker 02

  Well, right. If you can connect it to something really old, then it doesn't feel like you're such a psychopathic aberration, right?

• 1:46:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:46:43Speaker 02

  Part of a, it's sort of a continuity of it. You know, the other thing I was thinking when talking about these sort of Epstein interactions and stuff, what got me out of that alive, right? The reason I didn't fall into was because I, it's my spidey sense. You know, our spidey sense is what goes, ew, something's off here, right? The, that's why we've got to stay connected to this, whatever this natural shamanic, whatever this realm we're talking about. The more invested you are or, or distracted you are by all the social media metrics, if those are your gauges of good and bad, of right and wrong, then you lose that gut, spidey, ethical.

• 1:47:27Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:47:28Speaker 02

  Thing, you know?

• 1:47:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:29Speaker 02

  And that's, and of course, I mean, it's like, it's just like saying, oh, if you're completely a capitalist and nothing else, you're going to end up doing immoral things. Of course you are, because you're not going to feel the externalities of your actions. You're not going to feel the people you're killing or whatever. So it's that. I really feel like the way to survive and thrive in, in this unfolding landscape that's getting weirder and weirder and darker is to stay in touch with that, you know, that the part that we're trying to crush, the sweet, innocent, vulnerable, fleshy, psychedelic, thoughtful thing, you know, that's the strength.

• 1:48:08Danny Jones?

  Yes. Yes, exactly. Have you ever heard of Adam Curtis?

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:48:11Danny Jones?

  The documentarian?

• 1:48:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:48:12Danny Jones?

  You know his film, Hypernormalization? That's what this, this whole moment reminds me of.

• 1:48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. You should get him on, I want to get him on my podcast.

• 1:48:20Danny Jones?

  We've talked to him before, but he doesn't, he's not interested in doing podcasts.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  I know. I know. He's making five hours of movies every year, so.

• 1:48:28Danny Jones?

  It's incredible. It's incredible, the stuff that he does. And like the whole, the whole hypernormalization thing seems to be more relevant today than ever, because like the way the media is, where it's like, you have access to all the deepest, darkest secrets. It's like of the people that run the world now, but. Everyone knows they can't do anything about it. You know, it's like all we can do. You have two levels of it. You have like people like us who talk about it for a living. Who like, we can talk about it and do everything we can to like boil our boil our little pot of water in this ocean.

• 1:49:07Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:49:08Danny Jones?

  And then you have like people who have real jobs, who have to go to work and to take care of whatever they have to take care of. And they don't really have the time and the bandwidth to pay attention to all this stuff, but they're kind of peripherally aware of it. They know it exists and they know that like, oh my God, like this whole system is kind of not real. So I'm just going to keep pretending my way through like if I if I accept the fact that it's all a sham, how can I reconcile that with like getting up and going to work every day and being a part of this whole system?

• 1:49:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:49:41Danny Jones?

  You know, it's so tricky. It's like we're pretending.

• 1:49:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. But then the object of the game is to start to dedicate as much of your time and energy toward the alternative ways of being, you know, whether it's just being nice to people in the street or not being on the phone or answering less email or changing jobs, doing favors, you know, it, it, you know, we can't single handedly create a new social economic order that doesn't reward sociopaths. Right? That can't happen overnight, but we can engage in behaviors and ways of moving through

• 1:50:25Speaker 02

  our lives that engender a more compassionate, local, friendly, human approach. That's what you know, my pocket, team human. It's like to say, being human is a team sport. Let's act like that. What would that, what would that look like?

• 1:50:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, 100%.

• 1:50:43Speaker 02

  Behavioral, you know, it's behavioral. It's like, it starts really easy. It's like, the first thing you know, I would tell people is, um, and it works for the Christian too, remember the Sabbath. Maybe start that way. Take one day a week and unplug from these systems. Don't even look at a screen. One day, from Friday night to Saturday night, don't look at a screen. Meet people, touch people, have sex, play games, one day. And that's enough to recalibrate your system. When you go back on Saturday night at sundown to the device, it's like, oh, this is,

• 1:51:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:20Speaker 02

  This is doing something to me.

• 1:51:22Danny Jones?

  It's like an alternate reality.

• 1:51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:51:24Danny Jones?

  It's an alternate reality.

• 1:51:25Speaker 02

  It's the simulation. People always keep saying, are we living in a simulation? No, we are. No, no, we made a simulation.

• 1:51:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:51:31Speaker 02

  You know, we weren't living in a simulation. We are now.

• 1:51:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah, 100%. And also, inside that simulation, you have multiple simulations, because like the way the algorithms are, there's pockets.

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:51:43Danny Jones?

  There's like little like pocket echo chamber,

• 1:51:47Danny Jones?

  echo chambers that people live in where they don't cross over. The other day, we had this dude on the podcast who,

• 1:51:54Danny Jones?

  he's like a, an academic attack dog. He's like an attack dog for academic consensus. And so like normally online, all of like the alternative stuff, like the alternative history, all of the, any, anything that doesn't go, anything that goes against like scientific consensus or norms, right, seems to get the most attention online, like exposing corruption.

• 1:52:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:23Danny Jones?

  Talking of like stuff that Graham Hancock talks about, like ancient civilizations, the possibility, like when you use your imagination and you try to say, you know, what if they were wrong? What if the, what if the textbooks in the schools aren't actually what's, what the truth is? What if there's more to this story?

• 1:52:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:52:41Danny Jones?

  Right? And, and this guy is like the one that goes online and like publicly humiliates and belittles that group of people. And I was like, I'm like, what if we just like went completely against the grain? And had this guy on the podcast, the guy that everyone,

• 1:53:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:53:00Danny Jones?

  The guy that everyone who listens to my show despise, would despise.

• 1:53:04Speaker 02

  Cool.

• 1:53:05Danny Jones?

  And hate this guy. I'm like, let's, let's, let's give it a shake, see how it goes. And, um, I thought it might like open up a portal, but it didn't. It was just like a brick wall.

• 1:53:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:21Danny Jones?

  And, you know, I mean, we got into some, we were talking about everything from like the pharmaceutical industry to, to ancient civilizations and Graham Hancock and stuff like that. And, um, this guy was like, I was asking him like, is there anything? Is there anything that you looked at originally that you thought was a hundred percent a bona fide fact that you were able to come around on and change your mind on with other, with other evidence? Like, is there, are there any of these crazy fringe things that you hated at first that you were able to change your mind on? He goes, no, never. And he's like, I don't think it'll ever happen either. Like he thought, he like, he thinks he's absolutely right. So like, it really illuminated to me that this whole sort of like podcast

• 1:54:06Danny Jones?

  ecosystem is its own separate universe from a whole nother part of reality. And I don't know if it's a, the, a fact that the people like him, the people that are in academia, the scientists that work in labs all day, every day that don't pay attention to the media, like, are, are they, like, are they so disconnected? Is, are, are they in a completely separate universe and reality from what the, this podcasting world is? Like, if, if you were in to introduce them into this or inject this world into their veins, would it be like a total disconnect? Would there be, would it be like, what is this? This is completely not real. This is completely disconnected from my reality

• 1:54:51Danny Jones?

  of what I see every day, working in the lab with my hands on science and looking at atoms and all this stuff.

• 1:54:58Speaker 02

  It shouldn't. I mean, and there's some of those guys have podcasts, right?

• 1:55:02Danny Jones?

  Some of them do.

• 1:55:03Speaker 02

  Some cool sciency people and astronomers talking about other universes.

• 1:55:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And. But this guy's take is all those people are grifters. Like, anyone who does real science, who goes on a podcast is most likely a grifter because the fact that they're going in front of a microphone means they have some sort of a financial gain.

• 1:55:22Speaker 02

  Like Neil deGrasse Tyson or whatever, Carl Sagan. And I don't think so. I think some are like public educators.

• 1:55:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:31Speaker 02

  You know, and it's, it's thrilling, especially with kids to.

• 1:55:36Speaker 02

  Tell them about what's going on in the, I mean, I understand what they mean.

• 1:55:40Danny Jones?

  I mean, the guy had like no imagination whatsoever.

• 1:55:42Speaker 02

  Right. And the fact that he can't change his mind about anything is not, he's not a real scientist then. You know, what, what the podcast universe can do, the thing I think it most valuable for is kind of exercising the what if muscle in people's brains. What if this, what if that, like I was, I was telling you just before, before we started that I was listening to a bunch of your shows. You know, before coming on and like people talking about space and the aliens and stuff and like, some of it, I'm like, I don't, I don't believe that. But the experience of what if thing, the experience of imagining it kind of creates more space in the brain. And I mean, and the way, the way, I don't know if you're, do you remember Art Bell?

• 1:56:27Speaker 02

  Were you around for him? So you do an Art Bell thing with people, which I like, which is,

• 1:56:34Speaker 02

  even if they're going off and it's like, well, these, these, these people are then more enslaved for the gold and being up to the other kind of thing. And, but you, you stay with them, not, not necessarily positive reinforcing, whatever, but okay, and then what? And then why would that? And so you, you follow them logically through their thing. And try, you try it on at least, you know what I mean? Which is, that's what Art used to do, you know what I mean? And he's like, is he believing it or not? It's like, you can never really tell.

• 1:57:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Speaker 02

  And I like, I like, I like for you to stay in that space between. Cause it's like.

• 1:57:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've always just been fascinated by this rift between like academia and like the entertainment podcasting sort of world, you know, like the Art Bell world versus like the strict academic science. Because there's been this emergence of people that have been popping out of like the traditional consensus, by the book, sort of like PhD world, who have like started, sort of have been like coming out and like there's, there's this like, there's this phenomenon where they, they clash online and. And um, it's become this team sport.

• 1:57:47Speaker 02

  It should be. If we on the PhD side, which I am now, don't embrace our, our wonder, then people will hate us. They'll say, oh, you're stuck in your ivory tower. You're not open to any ideas. You're just there to protect the establishment view of this and that.

• 1:58:04Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:58:04Speaker 02

  That's not what it's for.

• 1:58:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And I see the, I see the value in both. I think they should be, they should, they should both exist simultaneous and, and there should be, they should be intertwined, but I've like, I've just heard so many stories of people in academia being like, for example, you know, one guy who was like publishing, publishing his dissertation and like went in front of the dissertation committee. He did a dissertation on drugs used in ancient Rome. And uh, the committee on his dissertation said, you have to take out every reference to recreational drug in ancient Rome before you, we give you your PhD. And he goes, why? He go, and the, the, the head of the committee says, because the Romans wouldn't have done such a thing.

• 1:58:51Danny Jones?

  And he's like, well, that's some weird form of censorship. So he, he did it, got his PhD, and then he went out and made a book about it.

• 1:58:57Speaker 02

  Right. That is weird. You know, it's like,

• 1:59:01Danny Jones?

  but I know that's not, that's not.

• 1:59:02Speaker 02

  What the committee should be doing is saying, you haven't demonstrated, uh, you haven't demonstrated that it was recreational. In other words, you're making an assumption that they were doing recreational drugs. We don't have any evidence of that. So you can't say it, but it doesn't sound like that's what they were doing.

• 1:59:18Danny Jones?

  No, he had overwhelming evidence that they were doing it.

• 1:59:20Speaker 02

  Fun thing I do, I'm on dissertation committees is I try to flip it and I explain to the person defending their dissertation. I say, you're not defending your dissertation. We professors are defending the canon against your dissertation. When you write a dissertation, the, the, the, the underlying drive is to say, the canon is incomplete. I have new information that you need to include in the canon. And we are defending, we're here to say, no, no, no, we don't want something new. We don't. Because if you're writing a dissertation, you're basically saying that the, the, the establishment is either wrong or they're ignorant of something that they need to know. So who's defending what?

• 2:00:04Speaker 02

  You know, and if you flip it to that, it makes them feel the dissertation, they're not nervous anymore.

• 2:00:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:00:10Speaker 02

  You know, it flips the thing.

• 2:00:11Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, and I think that one of the cool thing about, you know, one of the cool things about some of these like fringe ideas or fringe, you know, scientific theories or whatever it might be, UFOs or anything like that, is that that stuff can kind of be, which has happened for me, what draws you into something else. Like, that can be like the hook that gets you interested in something that sort of draws you in like, uh huh, this sounds a little bit crazy, maybe they're wrong about something and you, at first you may think is all real, and then you kind of like learn something else, like, oh shit, maybe it's not real. Now I'm kind of incentivized to like really drill down and find the truth about this. And then, before you know it, you become an expert in whatever it is.

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  Yep. And the stuff was, I mean, the stuff we accept now that was seen as crazy when I was a kid, gut biome. No one believed in that. They didn't even believe, when I was a kid, I would eat milk and I would get sick. They didn't even believe in lactose intolerance when I was a kid. That's in the seventies. It was like, not a thing.

• 2:01:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:09Speaker 02

  And now it's like, it's science, you know, it's real. Gut biome is real. There's real bacteria in there that determine your mood and your health and all these things.

• 2:01:18Danny Jones?

  The second brain.

• 2:01:20Speaker 02

  It is, and your immune system, and these are all friggin real. And, you know, amazing Randy, whatever it is, he says he's gonna give a million bucks to anyone who proves something, something supernatural. He's this magician, who, but he'll never give it. Because there's a ton of stuff that's, that's weird. And when someone from the academy, that's the worst for them. When someone from the academy challenges the laws of science, like Rupert Sheldrake, I don't know if you know him?

• 2:01:48Danny Jones?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:01:48Speaker 02

  He came up with morphogenesis and all, great.

• 2:01:50Danny Jones?

  Morphic resonance.

• 2:01:51Speaker 02

  Morphic resonance, yeah. He did a TED Talk and it's the only TED Talk that ever got censored. And in a TED Talk, he said that he believes that the laws, what if the laws of science themselves evolve?

• 2:02:07Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:02:07Speaker 02

  The laws of physics change.

• 2:02:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:02:09Speaker 02

  Cause everything else does. What if they do too? Or if we're in a bigger system? And they just freaked the fuck out and they just erased it off the thing. You're not allowed to do that.

• 2:02:18Danny Jones?

  That's so crazy. Why would you do that?

• 2:02:20Speaker 02

  Cause it undermines all the whatever, but it's like, that was the best. It's like, cause then it's like a meta scientific, there's a scientific model, but the scientific model's living in a reality that's changing. So how does it model? It's like beautiful. And whether it's true or not, it's just a big, beautiful what if? It's not as crazy as, you know, it's not a Bigfoot what if. It's a, it's a, it's a pretty straightforward one.

• 2:02:42Danny Jones?

  Right. Well, there's, I mean, there's absolutely shit out there that is around us all the time that you can't measure or weigh in a lab. You know, and, and that there's, there's a re, a real

• 2:02:56Danny Jones?

  thing happening out there, a real, multiple phenomena that don't fit into the scientific method. You can't, you can't, they don't measure up to scientific method muster and you can't, you can't quantify it, right?

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  Well, they, maybe they do at some point if we had other languages and ways of understanding things.

• 2:03:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:13Speaker 02

  You know, with some alternate universe, like retro causality is the one that I'm really into lately. Mitcharowitz talks a lot of, have you had him on?

• 2:03:21Danny Jones?

  No.

• 2:03:21Speaker 02

  He's a great occult historian. So retro causality, he didn't prove it, but I first heard about it through him. Is the idea that, that events in the future affect the present.

• 2:03:33Speaker 02

  And the present affects the past. So what they've done, these experiments where a whole bunch of people take a test and they don't show the, how they, well, they did or whatever. And then people who study for the test after the test do better on the test than people who didn't.

• 2:03:48Danny Jones?

  People who study for the test after the test.

• 2:03:51Speaker 02

  Do better. Why is that? Because it's retrocausal. Retrocausal learning. Right. So events in the future affect the past. You know, and it's interesting, you know, that crazy Nick Land, the guy who all the um, he believes that capitalism is a strange attractor in the future. That it's that what what's drawing us toward it, which is why things are happening the way they are.

• 2:04:13Danny Jones?

  That capitalism is what?

• 2:04:15Speaker 02

  Is like a a strange attractor. Capitalism is a a future state. That is rippling back and and drawing us toward it into into its future, that it's an inevitable future that's already there. Yeah.

• 2:04:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah, this is like the dead idea, that time loop idea, right?

• 2:04:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:33Danny Jones?

  And their precognition, that they have your stories that have dreams that predict the future and stuff like that.

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  So future is broadcasting back to us. And there's another physics theory. I forgot who it is now that that it's apparently it kind of makes sense that when the big bang happened, the time moved forward and backward at the same time. Didn't just move forward. So we're we're right. So loop that we're coming back around. Time loops was that guy. I interviewed him on.

• 2:04:56Danny Jones?

  Wargo?

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:57Speaker 02

  Eric Wargo.

• 2:04:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's great.

• 2:04:59Speaker 02

  I know. And it's like, and he's a real scientist, right? He's the real deal.

• 2:05:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, no, it's interesting because this is a real, it's been documented throughout history of people like recording their dreams and like actually proving that these events happened after they had the dreams about them.

• 2:05:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then there's that. I mean, it doesn't show a heck of a lot, but the Princeton random number generator.

• 2:05:19Danny Jones?

  Number generator, yeah.

• 2:05:20Speaker 02

  Weird when something's gonna happen.

• 2:05:23Danny Jones?

  There was a book, there was a, there was an entire book written about the Titanic sinking before the Titanic actually sunk. And it was like, it was called, the the name of the ship was called the Titan, I think, right? Remember, we looked this up?

• 2:05:34Speaker 02

  Titan, back to Titan, Poseidon.

• 2:05:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:40Speaker 02

  Oh my gosh.

• 2:05:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. It's bonkers. Um, well, thanks for doing this, dude. This has been really fun.

• 2:05:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks for having me.

• 2:05:49Danny Jones?

  My pleasure.

• 2:05:50Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm really excited that you can get a whole cathedral this way. I'm doing a podcast. I want a cathedral too.

• 2:05:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's a, it's definitely fun. It didn't, it took us, it took us a while to figure out the design, but

• 2:06:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:06:03Danny Jones?

  Once we figured it out, we got, we knocked it out pretty quick. I'm not sure what kind of cathedral it is, but people can use their imagination.

• 2:06:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, and they're not that pointy, so it could still, it's got a slight, you know, slight Islam shaping.

• 2:06:16Danny Jones?

  Uh huh.

• 2:06:16Speaker 02

  So it's good. And the contemporary, uh, I don't know, it almost got a slight, a slight reminiscent of the, the carpet in, in Kubrick's, uh,

• 2:06:27Danny Jones?

  The Shining?

• 2:06:28Speaker 02

  Shining.

• 2:06:28Danny Jones?

  We wanted to put that carpet in here, but we, we found some people who made it and it was just too expensive.

• 2:06:33Speaker 02

  Oh, really? They just went nuts? Yeah.

• 2:06:35Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it was like overseas. They like hand make that carpet, that shining carpet.

• 2:06:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:38Danny Jones?

  Oh my God, it's crazy.

• 2:06:39Speaker 02

  That would have been cool. All right. Next time, I'll put it in my cathedral.

• 2:06:43Danny Jones?

  Yes, do it.

• 2:06:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I just got to get, I gotta get advertisers. Figure that out. That's how it gets paid for.

• 2:06:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:52Danny Jones?

  Well, um,

• 2:06:52Speaker 02

  All right, thanks. Well, good.

• 2:06:53Danny Jones?

  Tell people where they can find your podcast again.

• 2:06:55Speaker 02

  Uh, Team Human.

• 2:06:56Danny Jones?

  And your books and all that.

• 2:06:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, Team Human's the podcast. You can find it everywhere, you know, YouTube and all those places. I'm Douglas Rushkoff, got it rushkoff.com. The, the book you'll like is called Survival of the Richest Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires. If you want a book that'll just make you happy, get Team Human. And that's a nice, uh, that's a nice book. Keep it in the bathroom. And there's like a hundred little sections. You read one per sitting. It's a good unit dose, kinda, microdose book.

• 2:07:23Danny Jones?

  Perfect.

• 2:07:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm around.

• 2:07:25Danny Jones?

  We'll link it all below. Thanks again for your time, man. This has been fun.

• 2:07:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you.

• 2:07:28Danny Jones?

  All right. Good night, everybody.

• 2:07:29Speaker 05

  Now at Kroger, your points add up to more ways to save every trip. Use them your way to take dollars off groceries at checkout or save at the pump. You can even save up to $35 on your next fill-up. Same points, more choices. And with low prices on fresh, quality food, plus digital and personalized offers tailored to how you shop, your dollar goes further. Redeem your points online or in the app. Kroger, fresh for everyone. Restrictions apply. See site or store for details.

• 2:07:59Speaker 04

  At Cox, your internet and mobile price won't change for five years. That's five New Year's celebrations. Five Valentine's days.

• 2:08:08Speaker 04

  Five Fourth of Julys. Five Halloweens. Five Thanksgivings. And five summers that go by too fast. Through it all, your price stays the same with our five-year Price Lock Guarantee. Cox, a step ahead. Requires 2G speeds and gig unlimited mobile. Taxes and fees excluded from Price Lock. Mobile data speeds reduced after 20 gigs.