Dating with ADHD feat. Author Emily Farris

We loved our conversation with Emily Farris, author of I'll Just Be Five More Minutes, about being diagnosed with ADHD at 35 and how it has impacted her life, especially in relationships. She shares her story of feeling different growing up and what brought her to getting a diagnosis, how she manages it now, dating with ADHD, social anxiety and drinking, hyper fixation and time blindness (ahem, chronically late people), the issues that arose in her marriage, postpartum anxiety, and her decision to get divorced. We also chat about dating someone who is neurodivergent, and the types of people who are best equipped (and worst equipped) to enter into that relationship dynamic. Before Emily joins us, Rayna has been making men feel needed, and we share the whole story of finding Ashley's wedding dress. Enjoy! Follow Emily on Instagram @thatemilyfarris, read her book I'll Just Be Five More Minutes, follow her Substack, and check out her website for more. Follow us on Instagram @girlsgottaeatpodcast, Ashley @ashhess, and Rayna @rayna.greenberg. Visit girlsgottaeat.com for more. Thank you to our partners this week: Quince: Get free shipping and 365-day returns on your next order at https://quince.com/GGE. BetterHelp: Get 10% off your first month at https://betterhelp.com/gge. Hungryroot: Get 40% off your first delivery and free item in every box for life at https://hungryroot.com/GGE with code GGE. Article: Get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more at http://article.com/gge. Boll & Branch: Get 20% off at https://bollandbranch.com/gge. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  If you can't have a sense of humor about your relationship and about your partner, do not date a person with ADHD.

• 0:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  This podcast is a Dear Media production.

• 0:23Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hi, guys.

• 0:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Welcome back to another episode of Girls Gotta Eat.

• 0:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Welcome back. Still coughing.

• 0:29Rayna Greenberg?

  My back is broken now.

• 0:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, you got your back blown up. You blew your own back out.

• 0:33Rayna Greenberg?

  I really did. I'm really paying for my mistakes.

• 0:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 0:36Rayna Greenberg?

  I really, I have sciatic nerve damage.

• 0:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 0:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Damage.

• 0:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's sciatica.

• 0:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Damage is a leap. I picked up a heavy plant and I hurt myself.

• 0:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  That plant did all look that heavy.

• 0:46Rayna Greenberg?

  I picked up three of them.

• 0:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 0:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Not at the same time, though.

• 0:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was the third.

• 0:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  There's one on each arm. You're like, I'm so strong.

• 0:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Look at me go.

• 0:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I just, you gotta, I'm getting older. You gotta stretch.

• 0:58Rayna Greenberg?

  You do have to stretch.

• 0:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, speaking of working out and stretching, so last night I did my first 30-minute Peloton back from being sick. I've been like easing back in with 20s and 15s. I'm still like, I'm still coughing stuff up. Like, this flu, again, I really tried to, I have a long flu. And I started taking this class. I chose it because the playlist was second to none, hip hop heroines. And it was just like Lil Kim and Nicki Minaj and Salt and Pepper.

• 1:25Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, this is fun.

• 1:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  De Brat.

• 1:26Rayna Greenberg?

  This is really fun.

• 1:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I'm like, okay, so I started taking this class. And I'm like, is this English?

• 1:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, so.

• 1:37Rayna Greenberg?

  You didn't recognize the songs or?

• 1:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  The songs were in English. The songs were the bangers I know and love. The instructor.

• 1:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, Camilla.

• 1:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Camilla speaks English. So I text Taylor. I go, on the bike, I'm like, am I having a stroke? I'm stroking out. I text Taylor. I said, have you ever taken Cliff? I was like, I literally can't tell if he's speaking English. And I'm watching it. I'm like, doing the class, I'm like, I'm hearing English words. And I'm like, but the rest of it, it sounds German. And so I'm like, I'm not, I'm not okay. Something's wrong with me. And I'm like, yeah, I think I have seen German on here before. So then I really am like.

• 2:14Rayna Greenberg?

  You have?

• 2:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 2:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 2:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  So then I'm like, this class is in German. Fully like he's saying

• 2:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  He is saying some words that are English like he there are a few like workout type words that threw me because they're English words or he's saying the name of the artist or he's saying slang terms like it got me enough minutes in where I'm like this is English and I'm just not okay

• 2:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 2:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  And so finally I'm like, okay, this class is in German. I'm gonna see it through.

• 2:43Rayna Greenberg?

  German.

• 2:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was like, I have to see this class through.

• 2:48Rayna Greenberg?

  You cheer picked German. I would not, I wouldn't know what German is.

• 2:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, but then I had like a memory unlocked that it said German. Sometimes they say.

• 2:55Rayna Greenberg?

  I've never seen this. I've only seen classes in Spanish.

• 2:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, was this class in German?

• 3:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. Camilla Ramon.

• 3:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, Cliff. Thank God. Cliff Dwenger. It says German.

• 3:07Rayna Greenberg?

  I have never seen this in my life. He's not giving German.

• 3:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  So, Freina, the thing that I like now is it used to be on Peloton, you could choose like more music or more instructor. And now it has a slider, you can really customize it. So I just turned

• 3:22Rayna Greenberg?

  They created it for Alex Choussin.

• 3:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  I went Alex's voice all the way up, Cody all the way up. So I brought it all the way down where I could barely hear it. No offense, Cliff. And just played my music and just watched the numbers and like, God, I mean, I'm doing this so many times. I know what's happening and I can figure it out. And I had like a really great workout. I really pushed myself. And I was like, I had to use this playlist. Like, you know, it's got the jump off, none of your business.

• 3:45Rayna Greenberg?

  I've just, I didn't know that they did that like straight up. Camilla Ramon, I take her classes because I like Latin playlists. She does all Latin playlists and she speaks Spanish sometimes.

• 3:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sometimes.

• 3:55Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Because I've taken English speaking classes of hers too.

• 3:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes.

• 3:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  But the way.

• 3:59Rayna Greenberg?

  German would come out of nowhere for me.

• 4:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you.

• 4:02Rayna Greenberg?

  I would be struggling.

• 4:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  But you know me, like, sometimes I'm not so good at picking up on English. Like, I started watching TV with captions during Bridgerton season one. And I was like, I know they're speaking English, but I'm having a hard time. You told me to watch Dairy.

• 4:15Rayna Greenberg?

  Normal people? Normal people try to watch that without captions. I dare you.

• 4:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  You know, I was able to really to manage.

• 4:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Dairy Girls.

• 4:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Normal people, but you told me about Dairy Girls. I was like, Freina, I can't watch this.

• 4:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, it's unwatchable without the cap, without the captions.

• 4:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Normal people wasn't a struggle for me, but Dairy Girls, I was like, this is not English.

• 4:32Rayna Greenberg?

  Normal people was the first time I ever was like, I can't get through 20 minutes without 10 minutes, two minutes.

• 4:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you think people from?

• 4:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  The UK or Ireland watch someone like Parker Posey on White Lotus and they're like, I don't know that English.

• 4:49Rayna Greenberg?

  I think so.

• 4:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, when I think about like us not understanding English in certain dialects, I think of what would be the inverse and it would be like deep south.

• 4:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, deep south.

• 4:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Sometimes I don't even understand people.

• 5:00Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't either. Like, it's a, it's a hard dialect to understand because they're, they, they add six vowels to every single word. It's adorable.

• 5:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  So anyway, I speak German now.

• 5:10Rayna Greenberg?

  I told you when I did that guy who was Irish and I understood like every other sentence and I was already blacked out and I was just like, I am, I feel like I'm having a stroke.

• 5:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, when we were at that bar in the Ned in London and you were like making out with someone every hour, sorry, every 20 minutes, th- those guys were really like Cockney accent and it was so loud, there was a live band and we were drinking. I was like, I'm just smiling and nodding. I don't know. And they are speaking true English.

• 5:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Full sentences.

• 5:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  In England.

• 5:38Rayna Greenberg?

  And you're, you just have to be like totally.

• 5:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're in England. And I can't.

• 5:44Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's an un-understandable accent like Parker Posey. That's a good call.

• 5:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 5:48Rayna Greenberg?

  Tsunami.

• 5:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  You want to live in Taiwan?

• 5:51Rayna Greenberg?

  She didn't know where she was.

• 5:55Rayna Greenberg?

  My La Razapan.

• 5:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  Her daughter just, her daughter goes, what? Now this is dated. We should have talked about it on Thursday. You want to live in Taiwan? I spit my beer out.

• 6:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  You don't know where you are.

• 6:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Wait, also, do you know this? I actually should have talked to your fiance about this, your current fiance.

• 6:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's it today. That's gonna happen in this interview.

• 6:21Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, it's gonna happen for the next nine months. I'm gonna call him your current husband for the next 30 years.

• 6:29Rayna Greenberg?

  He was at the previous one, but he won't be the last one.

• 6:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my gosh.

• 6:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Did you know that the dad in White Lotus is Lucius Malfoy? Did your fiance have to tell you that? Or did you see it on memes?

• 6:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I wish this was on a snack, but it's fine. We'll talk about White Lotus here. I did not know who Lucius Malfoy was. And so I was seeing memes from two weeks ago now that said, didn't expect to see Lucius Malfoy's dick or something like that. And so I was like, okay, who was Lucius Malfoy? And I Googled it and I saw who it was. Is it Harry Potter?

• 7:04Rayna Greenberg?

  The way you say Lucius, Lucius.

• 7:07Ashley Hesseltine?

  Wait, I'm getting, where am I getting Lucius from?

• 7:10Rayna Greenberg?

  Lucius, it sounds nice in your mouth.

• 7:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think it's from Lucius. I swear to God, it's from The Best Man.

• 7:16Rayna Greenberg?

  It sounds nice. I like watching it come out of your mouth. Lucius, it's Lucius.

• 7:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, okay. I was thinking of Terrence Howard in The Best Man. Lucius is Terrence Howard's name in Empire, that show.

• 7:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 7:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  So it's Lucius.

• 7:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Lucius.

• 7:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's the white people version.

• 7:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You hit it hard. Yeah, that's the Brit. You hit those, you hit them hard.

• 7:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I looked it up and then I was able to tell my current fiance about the Lucius Malfoy's dick and he laughed. He hadn't seen the meme. And he's, he's your Potter head or whatever.

• 7:45Rayna Greenberg?

  That's the only thing we talk about. It's the only private conversations we have. You know, it's like weird to talk to your friend's partners privately. Like if one of my friend's partners texted me, it better be because you want to propose. Like we're not, we're not talking to each other.

• 7:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, no. The one time he was like, I'm gonna make Raina playlist. I was like, the fuck you are.

• 7:59Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I'm with you.

• 8:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  I better be on that too.

• 8:03Rayna Greenberg?

  It better be called, I made this for Ashley if you're sharing it with somebody else. If one of my friend's partners reached out to me, jail. I just, that's crazy to me.

• 8:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, ew.

• 8:15Rayna Greenberg?

  You better be planning their birthday party or a proposal or don't talk to me.

• 8:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, I think even like your ex, like didn't I put him on a show of mine? But I kept you on the text even.

• 8:25Rayna Greenberg?

  For work reasons.

• 8:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  What if I would have messaged him like, here's your set time? Raina can know this.

• 8:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Raina will tell you, you're set time.

• 8:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  She will too.

• 8:33Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, none of my friends' partners do I speak to.

• 8:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Raina, if we don't talk about these partners.

• 8:37Rayna Greenberg?

  An emergency. Okay, but I gotta get right back into it, tell you this thing, speaking of partners. Okay, thank you to Quince. Get free shipping and 365 day returns on your next order at quince.com/gge. And BetterHelp, get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com/gge. And finally, Article, get $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more at article.com/gge.

• 9:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  And thank you to Bowlin Branch. Get 20% off at bowlinbranch.com/gge. And Hungry Root. Get 40% off your first delivery and a free item in every box for life at hungryroot.com/gge with code GGE.

• 9:14Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, just speaking of people's partners, I have to tell you this whole thing. So, last week, I made this whole declaration about like making men feel needed and making people feel like I need them. And I got a lot of really nice messages, like, "Oh my God, I'm so vulnerable." And thank you very much. Don't get used to it.

• 9:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  You were vulnerable last week.

• 9:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I know, I was. Well, I've thought it back, because some people don't deserve it.

• 9:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. But I made this like big grandstand about like making men feel needed. And boy, have I done that with other people's men this week. The amount of men, you don't even know about some of this stuff, that I have used other people's husbands and fiancés for this week is crazy.

• 9:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's why you're faking this back injury.

• 9:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  We came over, you're laying on the couch, you're like, "Can you help me with those boxes? I just really pulled my back out."

• 9:59Rayna Greenberg?

  So I started off strong on Saturday. You and Sparkle Eyes came over with your mom, who was in town, which we'll talk about, like, we had a really special weekend. But I was having a problem with my side view mirror, so I asked your current fiancee to just pop it into place for me, because he's a car guy. So while he was outside doing that, gave your mom the tour, and then when he came back in, I was like, "Oh, this box that I can't move."

• 10:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, I saw that box. I was like, "He's gotta get that box."

• 10:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I looked at you first, I was like, "Am I allowed to ask him to do this?" Because it's also just weird, like, use somebody else's man to do something.

• 10:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it's not.

• 10:26Rayna Greenberg?

  He loves to do this shit.

• 10:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  He loves it.

• 10:27Rayna Greenberg?

  So I was like, "Great, what else can I make him do?"

• 10:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Rayna Greenberg?

  But that box is bigger than all three of our bodies put together. It was enormous. And I should have made Rob do it. But I didn't let him stay with me when he came here. So then, the next day, I was pulling into my garage, which I can barely get into, and it was like late at night, and I must have hit one of the sensors, and there's like two sensors, obviously, that face each other, so that you know if there's something blocking your garage. And it was late at night, it was like 11:30 at night, and I had bent one of the sensors, and I couldn't get it to get back in place, so I just ripped it off the wall and broke it. Cause I was like panicking, I was alone in this alleyway where my garage is at 11:30.

• 11:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, so you could shut your garage door.

• 11:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I was just really like panicking. So, I was just like, whatever. So then the next day, I made our friend Rob, who has a wife, run around with me to a hardware store, hands and knees on the floor, drilling into the wall. And then, I hurt my back, I hurt my sciatic nerve, and I was just like, maybe it's just like, sometimes it just be like that, and you just gotta like lay around with like a heating pad. But it has not gotten better, it's like become more painful. So then, I sent your brother a voice note this morning.

• 11:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, well, that, he's who you have to talk to. He is like, the best doctor who's not a doctor.

• 11:32Rayna Greenberg?

  I thought he was gonna really just be like, just make sure you stretch a couple times a day, and like use a heating pad. He, first of all, asks me a ton of questions. Is it localized? Is it just your butt? Is it your lower back? He was like, where do you sleep? On your front? I said, what do you wear to bed?

• 11:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  What are you wearing right now?

• 11:52Rayna Greenberg?

  And I said, I'm...

• 11:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  What were you wearing when it happened? Can you, can you show me how you were bending over?

• 11:57Rayna Greenberg?

  He showed me photos. He's asking me those questions, when has it happened? How do you sleep? What do you wear to sleep? I said, I wear long pants and a long shirt, nothing interesting to see here. He said, I was kidding. I was like, I know you were kidding!

• 12:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so funny.

• 12:08Rayna Greenberg?

  So, he starts sending me paragraphs and videos-

• 12:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then he does the video, I know.

• 12:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Of stretches, and his wife was filming them.

• 12:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 12:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Paragraphs of stuff to do. I mean, could you die how long this is?

• 12:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm telling you, like, Matt majored in health and exercise science, and he also played college football.

• 12:25Rayna Greenberg?

  And that's why I asked him, right.

• 12:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  But, the way he speaks about the human body, and is able to diagnose things, of course, I'm not taking anything away from doctors, whatever, but like- It's just like, you know, it's what he should have done. And I don't know, maybe there's a world on which he goes back to school for this. Like, he should, at the very least, be a physical therapist. Like, he has walked me through every injury I've ever had. He's fixed it. He does the stretches. Like, when I had that issue with my back, he knew exactly what it was.

• 12:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Wow.

• 12:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  And he was able to show me the stretches to do to fix it. And he was like, this is why it happens. Like, it's so crazy. And you're like, how are you not a professional? And the way the language just flows out of his mouth. Like, it's pretty, it's so impressive. It's like, he gets in his element. And I just think about that. You know, I don't think it was really, he thought he was gonna play football. It's really hard to do much more than play a college sport. And so sometimes I just think, like, I wish he would have gotten a higher education in this, because he's like, clearly so born to do it.

• 13:25Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, he was amazing. And I wasn't surprised, because I know that he's like this. But like, he had names for each stretch.

• 13:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  He knows the whole body, yeah.

• 13:32Rayna Greenberg?

  He was like, don't bounce when you do it. Like, don't like, like, lunge back and forth, like, stay in this position for X amount of time. I mean, he really had like a whole treatment plan.

• 13:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know.

• 13:41Rayna Greenberg?

  And I thought, I really thought he was just gonna be like, sometimes you hurt yourself, and you gotta just like, be easy on your body and wait it out. Nope.

• 13:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Which probably a real doctor was.

• 13:49Rayna Greenberg?

  Kind of.

• 13:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, it's

• 13:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I Googled it, and that's what the internet said.

• 13:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's like innate. I don't know. You know, I always say that, maybe one day, if he wants to go back to school or something. Late in life, PT.

• 13:59Rayna Greenberg?

  I Googled, how do you fix a sciatic nerve? And none of this came up. It was just like, take walks and use a heating pad. And just like, your nephews were so cute. They're like, in the back of the video, and he's doing stretches on the floor. It just was really nice. So, I have not made any men that I'm dating feel needed. I've actually was specifically told this week that I have a problem making people feel needed. This one guy, I was like, I don't feel good. He's like, can I come take care of you? And I was like, no.

• 14:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, but it's like, no, not you.

• 14:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, not yet, either.

• 14:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, no, it's just, you know, you're not at the one. That's, it's intimate, Raina. Like, it's, you would let him do the stuff around the home that you needed done, but to bring you, like, soup and stuff, it's intimate.

• 14:38Rayna Greenberg?

  So, let me ask you, I was thinking, like, okay, so we'd been on, we've been on three days. And like, he was like, let me, like, come over and, like, take care of you, which is really sweet, but like, it's also just too soon for me to be all, like, sick around a person. Like, in the beginning, I'm still in the, like, I'd like you to see this, like, lighter version of me. And that's not an inability to be vulnerable to people. I just, I don't need it. I'm a grown adult woman. I'm not incapacitated. I've had major surgery, by the way, that I don't want anybody around me for. So like, if I have a cold, it's very sweet. And if it's the right person, I'm like, very happy to be like,

• 15:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 15:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Sick. Like you were talking about, you and your fiance were like, so sick. You guys live together. That's the person that's gonna take care of you.

• 15:19Ashley Hesseltine?

  I can't believe he still fucks me. I just have to spit all the time. Like, today, walking back for breakfast, I just have to hock a loogie. I'm like, I can't believe you still fuck me. Like, he has just seen the grossest part of me through all this sickness. And previously, I've been pretty fucked up around him too. But, yeah, you gotta be in love for that shit.

• 15:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I think that, like, true intimacy and love, it's a lot of weird gross smells. And you're just like, it's morning breath. It's, you're in the shower together and only one of you is under the water. The other one's just shivering naked and cold by themselves. Like, you just see a lot of, like, weird stuff and smell a lot of weird stuff. And like, that's true intimacy. But like, a few dates in, I'm sure it's well intentioned, it's very nice, but I don't need you up in my space, seeing me like that.

• 16:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, and it's just the type of relationship you have. I mean, there are people that have been out three times and they're in love. And, you know, that's just what it is. Like, that's not where you're at. And so it does feel too soon and, like, a little misplaced. And we're not at a place for you to take care of me when I'm sick. I don't know.

• 16:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, we're at a place where I want to show up at a bar or restaurant or a movie, and I want to look cute. I want a nice time. And like, I don't want to be trying to, like, fight through feeling like this to hang out with you.

• 16:28Ashley Hesseltine?

  Right. Yeah.

• 16:29Rayna Greenberg?

  You know?

• 16:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. Totally. Exactly. I love that you say that. It's not a lack of vulnerability. It's like, I'm just, I'm still wanting to be cute. Like with six dates and I can drop the cute act.

• 16:40Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. You could see me with no makeup on this one. I don't care. So anyways, I've really utilized all the men in your life to help me this week.

• 16:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, speaking of my family, yes, my mom was in town and it was just the best weekend. You know, I get really, like, I feel a lot of pressure when people come in town or I plan a trip to make sure everything goes right and that I plan the right things and everybody has a good time. And like, if it doesn't really work out like that, I'll be stressed about it. Like, for weeks, I won't stop thinking about it. You know, like, I could have done this better. I could have made sure this person had a better time, whatever. So I really feel like proud of the planning I did and like hosting her and she loved my house and it was her first time visiting since we've lived here. And I just felt like I was my best self because she was visiting me on my turf. And a lot of times when I go back home to Delaware, I'm like,

• 17:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  we've been traveling, we've been touring, you know, it's like, oh, I can't wait to get home and relax. And I'm just not my most like energetic best self. I don't know. I've been thinking about that recently. I was like, I feel like my parents always kind of get like the tail end of a trip or something, or it's like the holidays, everybody's sick. Like, I don't know, I just haven't, a lot of times I feel really kind of exhausted. And this was like her coming, I felt fresh. I was well rested. I hadn't been on a flight for six hours, you know, and was able to really plan a lot and do a lot for us. And it was just so nice. It was so nice for her to spend time with you and she came and saw your house and to spend time with my current fiance. They have like such a bond. They just, like, a lot of times it was just the three of us and they just really love each other. And I don't know, they both send each other like

• 18:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  the sweetest texts afterwards. And it was just really nice.

• 18:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Also, I just want to say, when you go to your parents' house, like, we all revert to these like childhood versions of ourselves too. And you don't have your car and your routine and like your stuff. And you really do get to be a better version of you when they come to you, which is like, when, ever?

• 18:31Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. And the thing is, is like, yes, we've been here now two years and my family hasn't visited. And that's not because they don't want to see our lives, but like, I just want to go there. I mean, I was in this long distance relationship where I was going to the East Coast. Like, I want to be in Delaware and I combine seeing my family with a place I want to be where I'm from. But yeah, so it's just like, My brother and my dad probably won't come till the wedding and that's okay.

• 18:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Getting here is tough though, like for both of our families. Your family has to like drive over an hour to the airport, it's a long flight. There's no direct flights from Pittsburgh, so my parents have to take like two flights to get here.

• 19:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, it just felt like, God, I'm like at a, I'm like really at a 10 in terms of like my energy levels and my just mood.

• 19:15Rayna Greenberg?

  She got to meet a lot of people.

• 19:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  Excitement, yeah.

• 19:17Rayna Greenberg?

  See Rob, it was nice.

• 19:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  It was really nice.

• 19:20Rayna Greenberg?

  So she did come here for something really special.

• 19:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, and I had said this before, she was coming for us to go wedding dress shopping. So we did go and it was me and my mom and you and our friend Taylor who went to a boutique called En Blanc in Santa Monica, like the closest one to my house, it was just like right down the street. And we found the dress.

• 19:42Rayna Greenberg?

  So good.

• 19:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did say yes to the dress, but I don't know, I kind of want to talk about the experience as a whole. Like initially when we went in, I mean, they're so welcoming and they're so kind and friendly to you. But then we talked with the like stylist who was going to be working with me, her name was Sri. I loved her. And then it's kind of like I described to her what I wanted and then we just kind of like went out into the store and we're like, let's just all see what we like. And I had this moment of panic where I was like, I don't, do I like any of these? Like they don't really come to life till you put them on. It's so hard to see on a rack, they've all been tried on, you know, they're, they're not your size. I was just having this thing of like, what if I don't like find it? What if I don't like this? Like what if I'm not a bride, which who cares, whatever. But I just was like having this feeling like I wasn't blown away or something.

• 20:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was supposed to feel differently and like I was just deferring to you guys. Like you guys were just grabbing ones and then she pulled a couple. And I was like, I don't even know what I have in that dressing room. Like I feel like I should feel more excited, I just don't really know how to place how I'm feeling. And then it like all changed when I started to try them on. And I tried on three.

• 20:48Rayna Greenberg?

  That I truly loved, like, kind of in order that they all got better. Like, I really liked the first one. I liked the second one more. I liked the third one even more. But I was like, we're not crying. No one shed a tear.

• 20:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, you walked out in the first one and I was like, it looks, listen, you're 5'10" and you're very thin. You're gonna look good in a lot of things. You are built for these dresses. And you walked on the first one and I was like, it's beautiful. It's beautiful on her body. It's beautifully made. It's nice. Yeah. And then I was like, are we all just gonna keep feeling like, it was beautiful. I know. And then, by the way, I'm gonna, I am about to post this probably today or tomorrow. So it'll be up by the time you guys are listening. You can go to my Instagram and I'm doing a reel of all three that I didn't chose, the three beautiful losers. But, so ashass.com, you guys can see the real Reina is kind of commentating on a lot of it, whatever. But yes, and then the second one was a totally different vibe. And we were like, oh, we like this better. I was like, oh, maybe this is the one. But I'm like, aren't you supposed to feel that it's the

• 21:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  one? But again, you walked out and I was like, this was great too. Yeah. And then the third one, I was like, oh, this is like, this is like this lace, like Hailey Bieber, kind of like really special, gorgeous, kind of

• 21:52Rayna Greenberg?

  Dramatic.

• 21:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, like romantic, but also kind of trendy. I don't know. And then we added the sleeves with it. And I was like, oh, this is like a vibe. And I was like, is this the one? But I was like, I feel like we're supposed to be crying.

• 22:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, I thought we were supposed to like feel more. And then I was just like, maybe I'm just not like a crying other people's dresses thing. Like, I went to this and I was like, I'm kind of sick. And I just like, am I a cry about other people's shit kind of person? But I will say, when we walked into the store, your mom and I immediately started crying.

• 22:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, it was an emotional experience altogether. But I was like, I just feel like we're not having the appropriate reaction to like, the one. And then I put on the fourth one and I had not pulled this. Sri had pulled this. I probably wouldn't have. I don't think any of us would have.

• 22:35Rayna Greenberg?

  Never in a million years.

• 22:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  Even though it had all these elements that I knew I wanted.

• 22:38Rayna Greenberg?

  But it was on the rack that all of us were like, we don't, don't look at that rack.

• 22:41Ashley Hesseltine?

  But also that designer is like, the best fucking designer. It's this like designer from London. I mean, it's like, it's actually like, we should have been on that rack.

• 22:49Rayna Greenberg?

  It was the non lace dresses. We were

• 22:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes, we were doing lace. The non lace can look a little plain. If you don't have like lace and sparkles and not a giant princess skirt, which is what I don't want, like a ball gown, like they can look a little plain. You gotta get them on. So I'm like, I'll try that one on. And as she's putting it on and she's like, doing the clips on the back. I was like, hurry, hurry, hurry. I was like, had a feeling. I was like, I think this is it. And I was like, hurry. She was like, I can tell you're getting so antsy. Like, I have a feeling like brides get like this when they like know and they want to do the reveal. And I like walked out and we all just lost it. My mom was crying. We were like, it's the one. I just knew. I was like, oh, I am. I am a cry at the dress person. I know. I was like, so am I. I was like, and I'll post this after the wedding because I have really special videos of coming out in this dress.

• 23:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  And like, I know it's the one. My mom's sitting there crying. Like, you're getting emotional. Taylor's like, oh, my God. You know, it just, you really do know. And you know, you know.

• 23:41Rayna Greenberg?

  You really, you know, when you know. And I, I love it. It's really special. It's really elegant and simple. And like, we were talking about the accessories you can do with it. It's not covered in lace and beads and a huge puffy skirt. And it is exactly enough.

• 23:58Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. And so I had an appointment the next day and I was like, I still really want to go. Like, the appointment I had the following day was the first appointment I made. It was this boutique I really wanted to go to. I really wanted to try on dresses from this very specific designer that designed a friend's wedding dress of mine. And I don't know. I was like, I'm gonna keep it. I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go and see. It was just gonna be you and my mom. We're gonna go. I was like, I still want to keep the appointment. Let's just go. And like, Sri was like, you should go. I think you should go. And you should get that designer out of your system. But she, I felt like she was like, you're gonna be back, but we'll be here waiting. Or, you know, whatever you want to do. It's your decision. And that night, out that night with my mom and my fiance, we were like, out having drinks. And I just was like, I'm not gonna, I don't want to go. I know what I want. I couldn't stop looking at photos of it.

• 24:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, I was like, looking in my phone at photos, like, it was like texts from a crush. Like, I was like reliving it. I was like, I, that's the one. I don't know what I'm thinking. And I will feel really kind of inauthentic, even working with someone at that boutique, like knowing that this isn't what I want. You know, it's like going on a date with somebody that you know you want somebody else and you've experienced it. And so I was like, I just put it, like canceled it. And that was that. And then we went back the next day. And she luckily had a cancellation for me to go back and do like the full measurements. And that is intense. It is, it is your butt naked.

• 25:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, are you?

• 25:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  I had my thong on, shouldn't like measure my pussy lips or anything, but had my

• 25:19Rayna Greenberg?

  That would be weird.

• 25:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thong on and just so many measurements. Like where you're, you drop from your shoulder to your nipple.

• 25:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, cause they really customize every single thing.

• 25:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Your waist, your butt, I mean, your bust, like every part of your chest and then like your hips and height, you know?

• 25:36Rayna Greenberg?

  What would you buy that they need to measure your pussy lips?

• 25:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  I was just saying, I kept my thong on. And then I was like, okay, so now when it comes, like in the summer or whatever, like it'll be ready to go. She's like, well, typically you still might need some alterations. I'm like, where am I going? What did you just measure me for? She's like, you know, I'm like, for what?

• 25:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, the length of stuff is not going to change that drastically unless you like really lose a ton of weight. But you know what's shocking to me is that you buy this for a lot of people a year in advance, nine, 10 months in advance. And like, people start to lose a significant amount of weight for their weddings.

• 26:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  I understand it completely. I don't want to lose any weight. Like I love where I'm at. I feel great. If anything, I just wouldn't maybe want to just to work my butt out a little bigger. I was like, if anything is getting bigger, it's going to be my butt, but not like my measurements aren't going to change. And I know that's not, a lot of people want to lose weight for their wedding and that's understandable, but how does that work? Like you're getting measured, you're like, okay, but just keep in mind it's going to be, I mean, I don't know how that, I truly don't understand the way they account for that.

• 26:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, maybe they just account for it because a lot of people lose a significant amount of weight for their wedding.

• 26:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so you just, you put on like a big dress, they pin it all up. So I see what you're saying. So you, you go in, you get measured and then that's why you have to get it altered again.

• 26:51Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, most people go back for a second alteration. But like, to lose like 30 pounds between the time you like buy it and you finalize it, I mean, that, I don't know how they account for that. Okay, then I was going to ask you also, I don't know how.

• 27:05Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't know how you stay liking something for that long. I would be looking, and I love your dress. I think it's perfect and it's amazing. And I think you'll like that forever also. I think it's something that, we've talked a lot about buying like classic wedding dresses and saying like, I still want like what's of the times. I don't care if I look back and it's dated, but I actually don't think this dress will ever look dated.

• 27:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 27:25Rayna Greenberg?

  But like, it would be hard for me to sustain liking something for nine or 10 months and being like, I don't know if I made a mistake. If there's something bad. Like, how do you stop yourself from going on websites and being like, there's other stuff out there?

• 27:36Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know. So, it hasn't been months, obviously. It's been days. But now I have a bunch of dresses in my, like on my search everywhere. And then I went on the designer's website. Also, like, I'll talk about the designer later. I don't know. I just feel like if you went on there, you might be, it doesn't need to be some big secret. The only person I'm not showing is my fiance. I'm showing everyone else. I literally don't care.

• 27:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, I didn't, I didn't show anybody until, I asked you if it would be okay with you.

• 27:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  I don't care. And that's whatever you want to do.

• 27:58Rayna Greenberg?

  Some people would care.

• 27:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Some people do. I don't care. The only person I care about that big reveal is him and everyone else can see it. I'm so excited. I want to show everybody. But I'll tell you the designer later. Not that anybody's really asking. I'm not trying to gatekeep. But yeah, I was on her site and I'm like, oh, well, like, you are questioning if you made the right choice. And then you have to remember, like, yeah, you made the right choice for you and your body and what you wanted. Like, I'm just like, all those very specific type of lace dresses, like, they do look so gorgeous, but I tried them on and they weren't it. But to your point, I guess you're saying your tastes change, which is what you hope doesn't happen. I mean.

• 28:31Rayna Greenberg?

  Your tastes can change. I think that like styles can change in general. You just, you picked something that's going to age really well.

• 28:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 28:38Rayna Greenberg?

  It's not like a crop top wedding dress.

• 28:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:41Rayna Greenberg?

  It's just, I don't know. I think I would just always be like, what if? But I'm not picking like a cover up for the beach. It's a, it's a wedding dress.

• 28:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. I think I'm just like, I don't know. How do you not change your mind about your partner? Like, I don't know. Like, I'm just, I'm kind of like, I love this. I committed to it. I know it's right. And this is what's going to be. I'm halfway joking, but like, couldn't you say the same about like, what if I changed my mind about the first I'm going to marry in nine months?

• 29:07Rayna Greenberg?

  That happened to me.

• 29:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  It happened to you. So I don't know. I have to remember that the way we all reacted to it, the way I felt in it, and just know that it's the one.

• 29:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally.

• 29:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  So can't wait for you guys to see it in however many months. It's coming up.

• 29:20Rayna Greenberg?

  I love it. It's special.

• 29:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 29:22Rayna Greenberg?

  It was interesting being in there because there was two other brides in there at the same time as you, and they just had like very, very different styles. One liked this like hyper shiny white color.

• 29:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Satiny.

• 29:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Satiny white, which is not my style. Although everybody looks beautiful. But and then this other girl had this like really princessy dress. I mean, she looks Cinderella. And they were short like me.

• 29:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  I think I'm a little outside the norm of what people want in terms of, I think, people want a big, full skirt and they want to feel like a princess. I've never once said I want to feel like a princess. I know that's really what people gravitate towards because you don't, when else are you going to wear a dress like that? And I do understand it. It's fun to twirl in a big skirt. It's never what I've wanted. Like when I filled out a little questionnaire before I went to the appointment, it says like, one word to describe how you want to feel on your wedding day. And like, I'm sure people write princess.

• 30:13Rayna Greenberg?

  What was your word?

• 30:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  I did too. Glamorous and hot.

• 30:16Rayna Greenberg?

  Hot. I like that. I want to look sexy for my dad.

• 30:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  But everyone, even the next day when I went back for measurements, is big.

• 30:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Big.

• 30:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Big skirt. And it's actually the one thing I can tell you, don't even show me it. I don't want it. It's not my style. And that's fine. Like taste is so subjective, especially with this.

• 30:37Rayna Greenberg?

  I don't like the big skirt for one reason. That's because I've had the opportunity to perform so much. And like so much of what I wear is costumey and it's like, look at her in that thing. And so like, I've had so many of those moments. I think I prefer something a little more like, demure is not really the right word, but the big poofy princess skirt. I'm also short. It doesn't necessarily look as good on my body. And those girls both looked really beautiful. They did. They looked great and they will look beautiful on their wedding day. But it's not, it's not a style that I care for.

• 31:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God, everybody looks beautiful in the dress that they feel beautiful in. Like, you know, everybody is beautiful. But also, it was just funny talking to the stylist. She was like, some girls want this and they, they're getting married on the beach. Well, some of those dresses are so heavy. I'm just like,

• 31:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 31:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you want to be carrying this around all night? About those big princess dresses on the sand.

• 31:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Why? Cause it's so much sand gets up in it? Like it's so dirty?

• 31:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's a vibe thing. Where I'm getting married is also glamorous and hot, like, and I knew what I wanted and I knew everything would tie in. I didn't really need to think about it. But I think you should consider where you're getting married when you think about how you're gonna look like.

• 31:41Rayna Greenberg?

  Of course.

• 31:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Think about that giant ball gown on the beach. It feels a little mismatched.

• 31:47Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, a friend of ours was showing me her wedding dress photos yesterday and she got married like in the Caribbean and she had like a beachy boho dress.

• 31:55Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like the big Cinderella gown like on the beach in Mexico.

• 32:00Rayna Greenberg?

  You're wearing a hotel dress on the beach.

• 32:03Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you're wearing an indoor dress.

• 32:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, whatever you want to do is fine. I mean, that's the thing, like do whatever. Go outside the box, like look crazy.

• 32:12Rayna Greenberg?

  That's your moment. You should look as wild and over the top.

• 32:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  However you want to feel, however you want to look, as slutty or as princessy as you want. That's when to do it.

• 32:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  It'll cost you.

• 32:23Rayna Greenberg?

  It is not cheap to buy a wedding dress.

• 32:26Ashley Hesseltine?

  Can I not just go and revolve?

• 32:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Revolve does have a lot of wedding dresses now. I got served them the other day.

• 32:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Show me your mu mu.

• 32:34Rayna Greenberg?

  Are they wedding dresses?

• 32:35Ashley Hesseltine?

  Anthropology, probably. The Gap. I was like, can I just go off the rack?

• 32:40Rayna Greenberg?

  I mean, anything white can be a wedding dress if you believe in yourself.

• 32:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's talk about our partners and we will get into it with Emily. I am telling you guys about Boll and Branch. I am so obsessed with these sheets. I think about it all the time when I'm just rolling around in my bed and feeling so comfortable. Like, I really thought today before I did this read, how much I have to hype Boll and Branch. How much I have to tell you that you need these sheets. I'm gonna look directly in the camera. These are so, they're second to none.

• 33:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, it's changing my whole bed. I have the sheets, I have the duvet cover, we have the blankets now.

• 33:13Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yes.

• 33:13Rayna Greenberg?

  I love the colors. It made my whole bedroom pop off.

• 33:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  I know, and I used to do all white. I still have my, plenty of sets of sheets, but I'm really sticking to more of the beiges and the cream colors. And I really just, you know, not all neutrals are created equal either. So a lot of sheets are just like, that's not the right beige.

• 33:29Rayna Greenberg?

  I'm going pebble.

• 33:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you love the pebble. My mom just came to town and she was in the guest bedroom. We have Boll and Branch sheets in there too. And she was like, oh my God, I've never slept so well. This is just so comfortable. So we're just obsessed. I mean, their signature sheets are a perfect place to start. 100% organic cotton. These sheets feel buttery to the touch, breathable to sleep in. They get softer every wash. And you can bundle stuff as well. And they also have different fabrics. There's a percale fabric that's going to be really cool and crisp linen. There's even flannel. You can order swatches. You can just test out what you want because again, you're going to be sleeping on it. It's going to be up against your body and the sheets just wash so easily. Of course, you're never going to lose quality when you wash them, but they are going to get softer over time, which we love and nothing compares to these. We're just so obsessed with

• 34:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  them. And again, Raina mentioned, we both got these waffle blankets and they're just so great just to throw over the bed. I mean, I have it on my bed, but you know, I'll bring it down. I'll be like cuddling up with it on the couch, like watching Netflix or whatever. So we love the waffle blanket as well. You guys can check it out. Bowlin Branch products are made different. So you can sleep better at night woven with the finest 100% organic cotton on earth crafted by artisans who earn the pay and respect they deserve. So you guys can upgrade your sleep during Bowlin Branch's annual spring event. For a limited time, get 20% off at bowlinbranch.com/gge. That's Bowlin Branch, B-O-L-L-A-N-D, branch.com/gge to take 20% off site wide for a limited time. Exclusions apply. See site for details.

• 34:54Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. And you guys know that I am just obsessed with interior design at my space in general and Article makes it effortless to create a stylish, long-lasting home at an unbeatable price. Article's great, you guys. You go on their site, they have tons of different curated ranges of styles. They have mid-century modern coastal, which is what I kind of lean towards, Scandi, and it just really makes the whole room feel more cohesive and stylish. There's great qualities. They take great care in curating the collections and they focus solely on high quality and meaningful pieces that will stand the test of time. And if you're just thinking to yourself, like, I'm not sure how to style these things, put them together, their website is fantastic and they'll show you how both their designers and people who've just shopped the site have styled the pieces. And so something that I think is just like nice to do, I just bought a new coffee table

• 35:36Rayna Greenberg?

  and it really just changed the whole vibe of my living room. If you're just like, I want to refresh a room and maybe you don't want to buy a whole couch, a coffee table's a great way to do that. I love their surrey 44 inch coffee table. It's a square white oak coffee table. It's really beautiful and you can kind of decorate the top of it. With some candlesticks and vases and things like that, but it's a really nice way to just change the whole vibe of a room or something like a headboard and just little things can really make a change.

• 36:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Their headboards are the best in the game.

• 36:02Rayna Greenberg?

  Totally. They have fast, affordable shipping and assembly. So the delivery process is really fantastic. You kind of watch them while they come to you. They have great support and they have 30 day satisfaction guarantee. So you can shop with confidence knowing that you're completely, if you're not completely in love with your furniture, you can easily return it. So really from styling to delivery to returns if you need to, you're in a lovely experience. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. To claim, visit article.com/gge and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com/gge for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

• 36:38Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, let's get into it.

• 36:40Rayna Greenberg?

  All right, guys, we are very excited to welcome our guest today. She is a writer for publications such as The Cut, Epicurious, Architectural Digest, Elle, BuzzFeed, and she is a senior writer at Bon Appetit. She is a cookbook author and her latest book takes a little bit of a different tone. I'll Just Be Five More Minutes and Other Tales From My ADHD Brain, a memoir for people with ADHD as well as those who know and love them. Please welcome to the show Emily Ferris.

• 37:05Speaker 02

  Hello. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be here.

• 37:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Hi.

• 37:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  We're so excited to have you. Yes, you, we haven't touched on this really at all. We are so excited to talk about your experiences and your journey and everything today. And you were coming to us from

• 37:21Speaker 02

  Kansas City, Missouri.

• 37:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  From my closet in my child's bedroom. I used to, I used to have my own podcast studio,

• 37:27Speaker 02

  but I recently got a divorce, which I'm sure we will get to, moved into an apartment and now I'm, now I'm in a closet. I'm in the closet.

• 37:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, are you from there?

• 37:37Speaker 02

  I am. I grew up outside of Kansas City. I touched on that in the book a little bit.

• 37:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  It was Independence, Missouri, and at the time it was the meth capital of the world or the country, according to Rolling Stone.

• 37:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  What an honor.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, right? And believe it or not, I actually never did meth, even though I

• 37:53Rayna Greenberg?

  Believe it or not.

• 37:55Speaker 02

  Believe it or I love.

• 37:56Rayna Greenberg?

  I have done meth, believe it or not.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  You know, I love stimulants. Turns out I need them. And it's amazing that no one ever offered me meth because I probably would have loved it.

• 38:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  But do they say like meth is, there's similarities between meth and Adderall, correct?

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Yes. And so I actually talk about that a little bit in the introduction of the book that there is, like meth is kind of like a bootleg version of an early stimulant drug that doesn't get prescribed very much, but they're all like amphetamines. They all, you know, give you extra dopamine and other chemicals. I'm not a doctor, but yes, there's, they are, there are some similarities, but I recommend going to a doctor and getting a prescription and not going to Independence and getting meth.

• 38:39Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay, we have no plans. We're not on the tour this year. Yeah. But we love Kansas City. When we've performed there and St. Louis and Kansas City, we have a great fan base there.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  Come back.

• 38:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Big fans of Travis. Yeah, we'll all do meth together.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah. No. But yeah, then I moved to New York when I was 18 and then moved back to Kansas, to inside of Kansas City, not the methy suburb in 2009, and I've been here ever since. So you wrote this book and it's this great memoir and it really, as somebody who I don't think I have ADHD, but I've dated somebody with ADHD and it really helped me to like, understand their experience in the world and sort of maybe my intolerance for certain things that I should have been kinder about. So would love to just talk about the inspiration for writing the book.

• 39:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  And just maybe start with like your journey. I mean, even just like growing up, like was this something like, I feel like something's off. I, you know, we just kind of want to hear how you came to this diagnosis before even wanting to write about the book and create content around it.

• 39:39Speaker 02

  I absolutely thought something was off when I was a kid. I remember just be, I remember going to my mom when I was really young and saying like, there's something wrong with my brain. I think I get angrier than other kids. Like I can't keep my backpack clean. I can't go to bed at bedtime. And like I, even when I was a kid at like 10:30 at night, I would get inspired to do a project and I would want to like sponge paint my walls red or paint a piece of furniture or craft something or rearrange all the furniture in my bedroom. And, you know, as I got older, teenager, all teenagers, I think are awkward. But I definitely felt, even though I had a lot of friends and I was involved in a lot of activities, I just felt like. An outsider almost to the teenage world, if that makes sense.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Even in my early twenties, it took me six years to finish college. I was a professional writer and I timed out of the reading comprehension portion of the GRE, which was very embarrassing. There was all these little things, right? Like, I could never get my money together. I could never get my sleep in order. I still can't get my sleep in order. My money's a little better, sleep still hot mess. I always have like one really messy room in my bedroom. I have clothes everywhere, like just all these little things. I don't feed myself until I'm like, oh, my God, I'm starving. I'm gonna pass out. I can drink coffee like all day, every day, and still I can't go to sleep in my bed. However, I could fall asleep on the couch at six o'clock if I need to be doing something. So it's all these little things.

• 41:03Speaker 02

  And I would joke, I joked for years that I would be like, oh, I'm ADD today, ADHD today. And I even wrote an article for Shelter Pop, which is a now defunct AOL home design blog. It was called My Design ADD. And it was about how I just constantly want to rearrange all my furniture and repaint all my rooms and change things all the time. And lacking a little self-awareness, obviously, because then at age 35, it was right before my 36th birthday, I finally got an official diagnosis. And I was like, oh, my God, everything makes so much sense. And then I told my stepmom, I was talking to her on my birthday, she goes, oh, that's interesting. Your dad got diagnosed with that a few years ago.

• 41:45Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm, and never mentioned it?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's so interesting. Okay.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. However, when you look back at like ADHD and the kind of little traumas that it creates throughout your life, it made perfect sense to me because my dad like doesn't like to talk about hard things or have hard conversations.

• 42:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  So what made you or what brought you to the diagnosis at 35? Were you like, I just gotta figure this out? Or was it by accident? Or how exactly did that happen?

• 42:08Speaker 02

  There was one article that I had read in The Atlantic early in my marriage, and it was called ADHD is Different for Women. And I remember reading that article and feeling so, it felt so relatable, like all of the things that this author had said she had issues with, it felt relatable to me. And I was having trouble even early in my marriage and I remember thinking to myself at the time, well, that would be too easy. Like an ADHD diagnosis would be too easy. Like getting Adderall would be too easy. It's not, I need to sleep more and like stop eating gluten and drink turmeric tea and like, you know, put some essential oils somewhere. Like I, I was like, I need exercise more. So I kind of like gaslighted myself a little bit. And yeah, just like that would, that would just be too easy. You can't, it's, it's, you know, it's

• 42:53Speaker 02

  not that. And then a few years later, after my first son was born, I just had this like complete, like week-long meltdown of systems where it was like, I thought I was going away one weekend and it was the wrong weekend and I'd rescheduled all this stuff, but I hadn't rescheduled some of it. And it was like, I got to this point where I was like, I don't even know when I am. Like I was trying so hard to be on top of my shit. And I just, it all fell apart. Like everything fell. And I was like, what, what is going on? Like I have, I have privilege. I have a job. I have a calendar. Like what the fuck? And then I remembered that article and I reread it and I was like, holy shit. This is it. And

• 43:37Speaker 02

  then I tried to get a diagnosis at the hospital, like I, the doctor who delivered my son, I asked for a psych referral and it was a terrible experience, which I write about in the book. And then I eventually found a psychologist who specializes in adult ADHD. And I had, I don't know, four or five sessions with her, maybe more. I can't remember now. And we, we, we like so much talking about my life and my history. And then she did a bunch of cognitive tests with me and she diagnosed me as ADHD and gifted, which made me cry because when I was a kid, like I, I was, oh, you're smart. And I thought I was smart. But then there was these things that I just really struggled with.

• 44:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 02

  And so that was a very emotional diagnosis for me. And then I took that to a psychiatrist who then evaluated me again. And now, you know, I see a therapist, I see my psychiatrist every three months for my not meth. Amphetamines and I still am a hot mess sometimes, but mostly like I have my shit together.

• 44:30Rayna Greenberg?

  I just, I love that story and I, I'm so happy for you that you sought treatment and asked a person to talk to you about this because it sounds like you lived with a lot of like shame and blame around this of like, if I just went to sleep earlier, if I changed my eating habits, if I communicated differently, if I just slowed down, like if I just overhauled everything I do, then maybe I'll be fine. And I'm sure you've spent a lot of years like beating yourself up over, why can't I do this?

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Oh, absolutely. Like even, I know weight is such a touchy topic and I hate to even bring it up, but like I would, I was, it's eating for dopamine. I would eat just because I was like, I needed dopamine and I could, I was like binge eating for dopamine. And like that, it's treating my ADHD has absolutely helped that. And then like, yeah, exercising and anything I'd get, I'd shame myself. And then I'd get hyper fixated on fixing something and then I would put all of my energy and all of my focus into it. And then I would crash and burn. And then I would feel even worse about myself because I couldn't stick to the thing.

• 45:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. What was that diagnosis like? I mean, I'm assuming it was a lot of different emotions of thank, thank God. Or was it just like, I can't believe I didn't do this sooner. Like what did you, or a mix of both? Like, what did you feel?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  It was, there was a lot, there were a lot of emotions. I felt relieved to have a clinical explanation for what had been going on in my life for so long. I felt sad for younger me.

• 45:55Speaker 02

  For how much other people had, had shamed me and told me to try harder and for how much I had shamed myself and how hard I was on myself. And for, and for the opportunities that I missed out on because I didn't have the tools I needed and I wasn't treating my ADHD. I have a lot of compassion for little Emily now.

• 46:12Rayna Greenberg?

  I wrote down this quote that you said, I exhausted myself trying to fit into a world that was not built for my brain. And was there just like always self-talk in your head? Like, why isn't this easier for me?

• 46:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, why can't, like, what, like, what the fuck is wrong with me? Why can't I just go to bed? Why can't I get up? Why can't I stop overdrawing my bank account? Why can't I put away my laundry? Why can't I eat healthy food at regular mealtimes? Like all the time, like everything, all the time.

• 46:39Rayna Greenberg?

  Right. Cause you're smart and gifted and self-aware. So there's this struggle of like, I know what I'm doing and I can't fix it. It's like, you'd almost rather just be like stupid and be like, I don't know. That's just like not have to think.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  I'm also a food writer and I was working as a recipe developer for a lot of my career and I like can't even feed myself.

• 46:57Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, Ashley's point, it does that you you said I was like an overachiever and an underachiever at the same time. Like it sounds like you really were high functioning in the like professional areas of your life.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yes, and that is actually one of the reasons I think I went undiagnosed for so long. And this happens with women. So there's something called masking and it happens with different neurodivergence and other mental health conditions that I was masking, right? So I was putting my energy and my hyper focus into doing well at school and like being in the clubs and like being on student council and achieving things and doing not sports, really can't can't catch a ball to save my life. But I was I was yeah, school is where I felt validated. I also didn't have a great upbringing at home. So that added to it and I touch on that in the book. But school is where I got a lot of validation and the validation gave me dopamine. And so I kept, you know, it was like little rewards every day. It was almost like a reward, you know, from a for a teacher giving me an A plus or telling me

• 47:53Speaker 02

  I did great or telling me I was smart or being excited about me being excited about extra credit or something. So I got my validation through school. So I performed, you know, I was getting A's and A pluses. I was getting extra credit. I was doing all the clubs. I had jobs. I was doing internships. My senior year of high school, I had like two jobs and two internships. Wasn't sleeping.

• 48:11Rayna Greenberg?

  Of course.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  Was was taking no do's. Very Jesse Spano.

• 48:15Rayna Greenberg?

  No, I used to take those too. I those make you crazy.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  You know what? Not when you have ADHD. Not when you are under medicated.

• 48:24Rayna Greenberg?

  That's the hack.

• 48:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did not have a Jesse Spano moment, right?

• 48:28Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, my God. Can we actually just pause for one second and for like people listening? Just define ADHD?

• 48:36Speaker 02

  Okay, so I define it as my brain doesn't process dopamine the same way neurotypical brains do.

• 48:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 48:45Speaker 02

  Like a baseline of contentedness, maybe for someone. For a neurotypical person, whatever their baseline is, mine is either like way high and way low. Which is why sometimes ADHD gets mistaken for bipolar disorder or depression and anxiety, one or the other, or both.

• 49:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 49:02Speaker 02

  Women are misdiagnosed all the time with depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, bipolar one. And so it's really like, in order for me to feel enough energy to have executive function, executive function is like doing the things in my everyday life to make life sustainable, right? Like feeding myself, paying my bills, sustaining a relationship, cleaning my house. That's all part of executive function. And if my brain isn't getting enough dopamine to like, make my brain be like, yeah, let's do this. I can't do it.

• 49:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  And there were, there were times when I thought, like, God, do I have chronic fatigue disorder? Like, I was just, what? Because there were times I had such low energy, but I wasn't excited. I just couldn't get excited about anything because whatever part of my brain needed to get the right amount of dopamine, something wasn't firing properly.

• 49:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  And then I feel like when we were younger, it was ADD and now it turned into ADHD, which is the hyperactivity part of it. Like, is there, is ADD still a thing? Or is it all just kind of lumped into?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, I believe it's all, I believe ADD is technically no longer a thing. However, the, I mean, the term attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. So that's the acronym.

• 50:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yep.

• 50:11Speaker 02

  It's kind of misleading because not everyone who has ADHD has the hyperactivity. There are two kinds. There's inattentive and hyperactive. I've combined.

• 50:20Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 50:20Speaker 02

  So I had the highs and the lows, right? So like the times where I was like, oh, I can't focus. Or like, oh, my God, I'm gonna teach myself how to make video overnight. So I have both. So it's kind of misleading. And it's not that there is attention deficit. It's almost like either the floodgates of attention are open or they are closed. Like it's a dam or the floodgates are open, right? So I'm either giving something all of my attention or none of my attention.

• 50:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it sounds like that can manifest positively when you give stuff all your attention.

• 50:48Rayna Greenberg?

  When you're on a high.

• 50:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, so people weren't like, you gotta get help because it is positive some of the time.

• 50:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, and like I freelanced for a long time and I would have clients who were like, do you make video? And I'd be like, no, but I will tomorrow.

• 50:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I'll teach myself overnight. I'll stay up all night. And so you're on medication and that just normalizes it, balances it? Is that just kind of the?

• 51:09Speaker 02

  In theory, in theory, it helps me to get motivated to start my day and to do the things that I don't, that I otherwise wouldn't have enough, process enough dopamine to actually do. So like, I'm still like really bad about doing my expense reports at work, but it helps me to like, get started on something I have to write, or get, do these little executive function things. Like, I don't want to do my laundry, but I have to do laundry. And like, it's giving my brain just enough dopamine to help me feel, not excited, but like motivated enough. But medication alone is not, it's not a magic pill.

• 51:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  For sure. And magic-ish.

• 51:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  You list a few different symptoms. You listed out four, and you know, it's hard to get one pill to fix all of them. So I'll read them back to you, but it's hyperfixation, time blindness, emotional regulation, and sensory processing issues. So what did, what for you did like the medication focus on fixing in that?

• 52:09Speaker 02

  I mean, the hyper-focus, really.

• 52:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 52:11Speaker 02

  And it's kind of, I'm doing like backwards calculation here, but I would hyper-focus on something that wasn't the thing I was supposed to be doing, because that was boring to me. And so I would go and hyper-focus on something else. I still do that, but I, I can regulate that more. And emotional regulation, I think, is kind of part of that. It's kind of all connected. So the medication just helps me to folk, to take my hyper-focus off of the things that I want to be doing that would give me dopamine even without the medication, and focus on the things that I need to be doing.

• 52:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. We want to talk about your marriage and divorce, but also prior to getting married, like dating, you know, did this come into play?

• 52:53Speaker 02

  Oh, my God, yes. And it's coming into play now because I'm divorced and dating.

• 52:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're dating. So just for a timeline, when did you meet your ex-husband?

• 53:00Speaker 02

  Early 2010.

• 53:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. And you were in, I'm trying to do some math here.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  In Kansas City, yes. So I had just-

• 53:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  But like, post-college or post-

• 53:07Speaker 02

  Post-college, yes. I graduated college in 2006, after six years. So I'm, and then I left New York and moved to Kansas City and met him about a year later. And in typical ADHD fashion, he moved into my apartment in three months.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  And we were married in two years and it was it was not a great marriage.

• 53:27Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 53:27Speaker 02

  And one could say we rushed into things.

• 53:30Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 53:30Speaker 02

  And then I was married for 11 years, had two kids.

• 53:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 53:34Speaker 02

  And we try, we tried, I've written about that. We tried so hard. We tried to, and I, you know, for a minute, I thought the ADHD diagnosis was going to fix things. And that was a little too, I was a little too over ambitious with that. In some ways, it almost created more problems because then we didn't, when we would go to marriage counseling, we weren't focusing on communication issues or anything. It was always like, the focus was just like, well, you have ADHD, you're the one whose brain is broken. You're the one who needs to fix things. You're the one who needs to be fixed. And I was, I'm over here like also doing therapy and also, you know, dealing with my own shit and trying to, you know, grow and heal. And then going into these marriage counseling sessions where that's also the focus. And so we didn't, we weren't able to repair the marriage, like too much damage had been done.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  Not just because of my ADHD, but for many reasons. And, you know, no one is perfect. And we were, I think, very poorly matched, but the ADHD definitely exacerbated all of that, you know? Yeah. So 11 years after we got married, we got divorced. And so that was what, at the end of 2023? So I've been officially divorced, I don't know, six, nine months or something, but a year and a half.

• 54:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 54:43Speaker 02

  Out of marriage. Yeah.

• 54:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, we want to talk about a couple of things, of course, like when it comes to this kind of thing. I mean, I wrote this quote, this was from

• 54:50Speaker 02

  I think from your sub stack.

• 54:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you just said, back then, we weren't thinking about attachment styles, emotional labor, postpartum anxiety, neurodivergence, career struggles, money problems, or how we might handle being confined to a modest bungalow with a preschooler and an infant for 453 days straight. We also had no idea how profoundly my hyper focus on hobbies, house projects and side hustles would trigger him and lay the groundwork for a lifetime of resentment. There's a lot happening there.

• 55:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  And that quote, and like you said, I mean, it just sounds like you said you rushed into things and these things weren't really considered. And it just sounds like it all maybe came crashing down and.

• 55:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, because we thought, you know, we were both so excited about each other in the beginning because on paper, we were such a good match. And I was like, oh, you guys are perfect for each other. We had a lot of shared interests. We liked a lot of the same music. We liked to travel for concerts and we were both food people. And there were just so many things we had in common and we focused on those things. And we didn't focus so much on our values. And I'm not saying like, he's not a Trumper. And, you know, like in general, we share like the very basic values of humanity. But as far as the way that a family unit operates, we knew we wanted kids, but we didn't ever, we talked about like private school, public school, charter school, but like, we never really discussed our values in a marriage,

• 56:09Speaker 02

  or how a family would operate, or our needs for personal space and alone time, how we would spend money, the big value you should talk about ahead of time. Just so many of those things we didn't, because on my end, I was like, I was, you know, hyper fixated on this fun new relationship and planning a wedding and having a baby and buying a house and decorating the house and painting the house and fixing up the house. And it took us 11 years to finally be like, oh, this is, this is not working. And it probably never really worked past that initial hyper fixation excitement.

• 56:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. I mean, whether you have ADHD or not, I think it's really relatable to meet somebody and it's, it's fun and you share all these same hobbies and interests. I mean, I connect with people over food more than anything. And it's really exciting for me. And to want to like rush in and be like, I found my person. You know, I, I think that that's even outside of ADHD, pretty common. But I was reading about ADHD this morning and it said in, in romantic relationships, it does tend to make people impulsively date and it's hard to regulate your emotions. You just go full send. I don't know if you relate to that, but.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  I do.

• 57:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Like, prior to meeting your ex-husband, what was dating like? Was it highs and lows across?

• 57:20Speaker 02

  I mean, it was a hot mess. It was a disaster. And I think, I think, you know, I think that is probably part of the reason I rushed into that marriage because A, I was dating in New York. I was undiagnosed. I was in my twenties. I was drinking a lot. And I had like. ADHD, undiagnosed ADHD at least, gives you like by default, social anxiety.

• 57:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 57:41Speaker 02

  At least me and most people I know. So because you're like, I'm a little weird. I don't know what's going on. I'm a little weird. I'm a little weird. I'm direct. I don't know. I'm direct. I talk a lot. I talk too much. I overshare. People think I'm weird and I drink too much. And then I would do that. I would like, I started online dating when I was really young. Like when it was just like the weirdos. It was actually kind of more fun back then.

• 58:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, the early days, like even the, I remember getting on Tinder. I'm like, is this, is this legal? This is too, too much fun. You know, like early days.

• 58:09Rayna Greenberg?

  You were on OkCupid?

• 58:10Speaker 02

  I was on.

• 58:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, you mean like before?

• 58:13Rayna Greenberg?

  OkCupid, Match.com.

• 58:13Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no, no. Wait for it. Love at AOL in the year 2000. I was like seventeen. I was seventeen.

• 58:22Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh my God. You were the original online dater.

• 58:24Rayna Greenberg?

  You were finding dick on the internet at age seventeen.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  No, did not find dick. I mean, I might have, I didn't, I didn't go near the dick, but it was gross, especially in Independence, Missouri. And then I moved to New York. I used that for a hot minute. And then there was OkCupid. But before that, like, I used to write for nerve.com. I don't know if you remember nerve.com. So I was, I edited their pop culture blog for two years. But even before that, I used their personals and it was like the same personal system as the Onion and a few other. So I would, no, I was like on websites.

• 58:52Ashley Hesseltine?

  Got it.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  On actual dating websites. I mean, OkCupid felt new and fresh. By the time I left the online dating world, OkCupid was like the place to be because Match was too like

• 59:03Rayna Greenberg?

  Serious.

• 59:03Speaker 02

  clingy, serious people who just like wanted to get married.

• 59:05Ashley Hesseltine?

  A little older. Yeah.

• 59:06Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, older people.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  I got rejected from eHarmony.

• 59:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, for being too cool and too young?

• 59:11Speaker 02

  I don't know. For, for being an atheist in, in Kansas City. They were just like, we have no matches for you. We can't.

• 59:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  I see.

• 59:18Speaker 02

  We can't put you in our system because there is no one who will want you.

• 59:21Rayna Greenberg?

  No one will want you. Wow. Thanks, eHarmony. Isn't this your job to facilitate this for?

• 59:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  You're like out in Missouri.

• 59:26Speaker 02

  But I think that's also when they like, weren't allowing gay people on the site.

• 59:29Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, okay. Can we talk about the? Drinking, because you talk about self medicating in the book and I have a friend who I think is undiagnosed with ADHD and I know he has severe social anxiety, which causes him to over drink and I watch it, I watch it happen and I think like, it must be hard to be in your head like that. So what is your experience like?

• 59:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I started drinking when I was 14 because I wanted to feel like I could talk to people and especially boys. And so I would go to parties and, you know, drink some pink wine coolers and then I felt like I could relax and just like talk to people. I wasn't as self-conscious and I just could kind of be more myself. And the, you know, the more pink wine coolers I drank, the more I got a little slutty.

• 1:00:18Rayna Greenberg?

  This is relatable to us.

• 1:00:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And so then I just, yeah, I, I got into this weird cycle of just like, even in my twenties, like I didn't know how to go on a date without drinking, but then I would either get self-conscious and drink too much, or I'd be like, this is so fun. And I would drink more. And either way, I would drink way too much. And then either hook up or not hook up and it, you know, crash and burn. And I think that's part of the reason I rushed into the marriage when I moved to Kansas City, because I was like, I do want to get married and have a family. And all of my dating life, I mean, I had a couple of serious boyfriends, but like, it had mostly been a disaster.

• 1:00:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  And I was like, this person has a lot of the things that I want in a person and he wants to marry me and I want to get married and have a family. And so it just felt like, well, I should do it. Like, let's do this thing, you know?

• 1:01:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:08Speaker 02

  Because dating had been such a disaster for me.

• 1:01:10Rayna Greenberg?

  And like, get off this hamster wheel, like?

• 1:01:12Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. I think I even say that in the book. I wanted to get off the hamster wheel of that kind of dating that I was doing. But I, oh, back to the drinking. See, I, I do, I go on tangents. But I did quit drinking for six months.

• 1:01:24Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  And that's when I met my husband.

• 1:01:26Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, wow. Okay.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  And so, and, and again, I thought like, oh my God, this is, this is great. Like, these dates have gone, everything's gone so good. I didn't necessarily connect the dots that it was because I wasn't drinking.

• 1:01:38Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:38Speaker 02

  I mean, a little bit, but I don't think I was as dialed into how much that affected. Like, in my mind, I was like, we probably would have hit it off anyway. But maybe not, like, maybe I would have gotten really drunk and blown it up on the first date.

• 1:01:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:01:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Do you drink now?

• 1:01:55Speaker 02

  I do drink.

• 1:01:56Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:01:57Speaker 02

  Um, I probably still drink too much sometimes, but I, I quit drinking for six months because I was like in this self medicating cycle, right? I was drinking so much and I was like, oh my God, am I an alcoholic? You know, do I have bipolar? Do I have depression? Do I have anxiety? Do I have chronic fatigue syndrome? Uh, am I an alcoholic? So all, you know, I would cycle through these things. Do I need to quit gluten? Like, I would cycle through everything.

• 1:02:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Dairy.

• 1:02:18Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, I did quit dairy for a while, too. And so I, I was like, I'm gonna quit drinking. I know, I knew I was drinking too much anyway, right? I was like in my twenties, living in New York, living in Greenpoint, Brooklyn, like I was drinking too much. And so, and I, yeah, I'm gonna quit. I'm just gonna quit drinking. Well, it was right after I moved to Kansas City, actually, that I actually finally quit. I was like, I'm gonna quit for six months and just see how it goes and try dating. I thought I was gonna write a book about dating while I wasn't drinking and then like a month into it, I met the guy I married. So the book didn't happen, but then I was able to go back to drinking in a much more adult way.

• 1:02:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:02:49Speaker 02

  And sometimes I still find myself like, oh God, I'm, I'm drinking more than I want to drink and I'll take a little break.

• 1:02:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:54Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Because I tend to do things to excess in general, like all or nothing, all in, right? Like, um, so, and now, you know, I'm 42. I can't drink like I used to, but I used to go out and just drink whiskey all night, you know?

• 1:03:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:09Speaker 02

  And now it's like, I'll have a, I have, I would drink some Amaro's. I like some bubbly wine, drinking a grony. And if I'm out with my girlfriends and having fun, like sometimes, yes, I will still have one Negroni too many.

• 1:03:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it sounds like the motivation is not the same and you recognize that.

• 1:03:24Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:03:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Your story in, in relation to drinking sounds like similar to ours. I mean, you drink, you wanna feel more comfortable in social situations. We're also insecure when we're younger and you just kind of start drinking to excess and then, you know, it causes you to hook up with somebody you may not have and all these things and you. You get older and at least the way that I feel that I think that we feel is we drink in moderation because we just enjoy it. We enjoy the socializing, the tastes, and it's not so much of like all the other motivations you had when you were younger.

• 1:03:56Rayna Greenberg?

  Right, right.

• 1:03:57Ashley Hesseltine?

  And doing it to excess.

• 1:03:59Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:04:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's totally unbelievable. I just keep shopping. And even like the other day I was like, I just want like a kind of a cuter, just flirtier pair of like pajama shorts. Just got on there. So cute. They're like, it's like a washed silk. Their silk is amazing.

• 1:04:59Rayna Greenberg?

  It's amazing.

• 1:05:00Ashley Hesseltine?

  Silk dresses for summer. It's all you need.

• 1:05:01Rayna Greenberg?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:05:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  And they wash in the washing machine.

• 1:05:04Rayna Greenberg?

  I like their purses. I like their accessories.

• 1:05:06Ashley Hesseltine?

  They have engagement rings.

• 1:05:07Rayna Greenberg?

  You bought your engagement ring. Ashley's engagement ring.

• 1:05:11Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm kidding about that. They have everything. The jewelry is so nice.

• 1:05:14Rayna Greenberg?

  They have luggage and travel accessories.

• 1:05:16Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:05:16Rayna Greenberg?

  You can just like upgrade your whole life at a very, very affordable price. Like sometimes you see these prices and you're like, this is gonna be junk. Not with Quince.

• 1:05:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  No, no, no, no.

• 1:05:24Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:05:41Ashley Hesseltine?

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• 1:06:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  pancakes and syrup, zesty chicken couscous bowl, roasted salmon and sweet potato on Brussels, and they, again, are gonna give you that recipe with all those ingredients. But you guys can check this out for everything, you know, just your snacks and your standalone items, your condiments, and their meats and poultry and seafood is all really good, high quality. That means so much to me. Like, I've used a lot of various services throughout the years, and like, sometimes you just, the meat, it's, or the fish, or the salmon, you're like, what is this?

• 1:06:58Rayna Greenberg?

  What's happening here?

• 1:06:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  So I really trust them, and I love everything I've gotten for them, and this is just great. It's just gonna take the work out of grocery shopping and meal planning and all that stuff, and really, really high quality stuff, and everything you could want to stock your fridge and pantry. So you are going to love Hungry Root as much as we do. Take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box, plus a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com/gge and use code GGE. That's hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. Hungryroot.com/gge, code GGE.

• 1:07:36Rayna Greenberg?

  And this show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Therapy can really feel like a big investment, but the state of your mind is just as important as your physical health, so. Talking numbers in general, traditional in-person therapy can cost anywhere from $100 to $250 per session, which really adds up fast for most people. And with BetterHelp online therapy, you can save on average up to 50% per session. We love that. With BetterHelp, you pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, saving you big on cost and time. Therapy should feel accessible, not like a luxury. With online therapy, you can get quality care at a price that makes sense and can help you with anything from anxiety to everyday stress. Your mental health is worth it, and now it's within reach. So, obviously, big fans of therapy. It can

• 1:08:18Rayna Greenberg?

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• 1:09:01Rayna Greenberg?

  about it a little bit, but you talk in the book about how like motherhood kind of was the straw that broke the camel's back. And so much falls on women in terms of like maintaining a marriage and a child and things like that, and why it just sort of seems to manifest for women in those phases of life?

• 1:09:18Speaker 02

  I can only speak to my experience, really. But for me, it was like I had been working so hard to just like function as a neurotypical person. Because I didn't know I was, I didn't know for sure I had ADHD then, right? So I'm still masking. I'm still like trying to do the married homeowner, working, like working mom thing, like working wife. Like, my husband's, one of his biggest frustrations with me was that I couldn't tell him when I would be home for dinner, and I couldn't do a regular meal plan. And I couldn't get dinner on the table for two people multiple nights a week. I could barely feed myself, and I would work, I was always working late. And just the struggle of just trying to...

• 1:10:01Speaker 02

  Survive a nine to five life for me, that is, that's not something even now, even medicated, I don't think I could do a nine to five desk job. I wouldn't. I've never had one of those longer than nine months. My job now, I work from home. I have some flexibility. It works for me. But I just was, it was so hard for me to even maintain that sense of neurotypical normalcy in a marriage. And adding a kid to the mix, I think two things happened. One, there were just hormonal changes in my body, right? So I, I ended up having what I now recognize was some pretty severe postpartum anxiety. Sure. But it didn't get, it wasn't diagnosed. Right. Partially, I think because I was masking, right? Like, so I would go to the doctor

• 1:10:46Speaker 02

  and she'd be like, how are you? I'm like, I'm fine, great. Everything's great. Having some problems breastfeeding, but I'm fine. But in reality, I was like obsessing over my breast milk and logging like every single thing, like every single pump and every feed and how much and all of his poops and all of his peas. And when he woke up, when he went to sleep, and I didn't let anybody put him to bed for the first year of his life. And I'm obsessed with car seat safety. And I was just like, it was intense postpartum anxiety. And was that just purely postpartum anxiety? Or was it partially my undiagnosed, untreated ADHD manifesting in response to this new life and this hormonal change? And I don't know. I think it's all kind of a spectrum and a mess anyway. So there's that.

• 1:11:27Speaker 02

  And then there's also all of the executive function that comes along with being responsible for another human's life. Yeah. And then also trying to maintain a marriage and a job. And work. And I just hit a goddamn wall. Yes. I cannot do all of this anymore. Oh, my God. I was hanging on by a thread in the marriage. And like, if I'm doing well in my marriage, my work is suffering. And if I'm doing well at work, my marriage is suffering. And now we're adding like a whole other human who's super needy and attached to my boob. And how am I supposed to do all of this? And then I just kind of crashed and burned. That was when I had this entire, I wrote about in the book, like this entire breakdown of just all of my life systems. Right. It's a lot for anybody. I mean, you're, I'm like stressed out about this. Yeah. Yeah, we're not doing that.

• 1:12:09Speaker 02

  And I do think that all mothers, or most mothers, especially working mothers, but probably most people who have babies, experience some level and some version of this if they have a partnership and a job and a child, right? And some men probably experience a

• 1:12:28Speaker 02

  Lighter version, a diet version of that. It was just overwhelming. And one thing a lot of people like to say to me, everybody's a little ADHD. Everybody has a little, everybody, yes, everyone gets overwhelmed. Everyone is late to things sometimes. Everyone forgets to eat every once in a while. I mean, maybe everyone gets stressed out and like can't focus sometimes or hyper focuses on something sometimes. And I say, okay, the difference though, do these things chronically and majorly affect your life? Or are they just things that happen sometimes? And in my case, it was like, yeah, chronic issues in my life because of these things.

• 1:13:08Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay. I thank you for, for differentiating it because I think a lot of people are probably listening, thinking like, I do this. Like I'm late to stuff, but like you call it time blindness, which is like, I just, can you like explain that a little bit?

• 1:13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. So time blindness is, so the, the title of the book is kind of based on the idea of time blindness. Sure. Where I think like, oh, I have plenty of time to get ready for this thing. Got it. I have plenty of time. I have time to take a shower and wash my hair and do my makeup and I'll totally be on time. Even today, I took the kid to school, walked the dog, did a few things, checked in with work. I was like, gotta take a shower. I'll have time to do my hair, set up my little closet, studio, whatever. Like the back of my hair is still wet, y'all. Like I didn't have time.

• 1:13:49Rayna Greenberg?

  You look great and you've been very charming this whole time.

• 1:13:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. You always have like a look, even like, I love your whole vibe, the red lip, the glasses, all of it.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Thank you. And so I was just saying, think I have enough time, always. I always think I have enough time. And, and even if I give myself extra time, somehow that time still disappears. Always. It just always somehow disappears. And when I tell someone I'm leaving in five minutes, I 100% believe I'm leaving in five minutes. But then it's like, the five minutes disappears. And it's like, I often don't know when I am.

• 1:14:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  I'm late a lot and I always think I have time. And I read this thing that just means I'm really optimistic.

• 1:14:27Rayna Greenberg?

  I like that.

• 1:14:28Speaker 02

  Optimistic people are late because they think like, I have time, this will be fine. Everything's gonna work out. There's not gonna be traffic and, you know.

• 1:14:35Rayna Greenberg?

  I like that reframing of the narrative.

• 1:14:36Speaker 02

  Thanks.

• 1:14:37Rayna Greenberg?

  Yes, I love it. It's great. It's great for me.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  I'm time optimistic, time positive.

• 1:14:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Maybe I'm jumping around a little bit, but you told this story in the book that I really related to from the other side of things. So I'll tell you my experience and I want to talk to you about the story because I dated somebody who probably had undiagnosed ADHD. He has it now, but things like details were a real problem. He would book a hotel for a vacation. It wouldn't really be in the right part of town. He would tell me the address to something. It'd be the totally wrong address for a doctor's appointment. No matter what, I'd left him up to like dates and times of special events. It was always wrong and it would make me go, I was young, it was my early twenties. It would make me go berserk because I felt like I just, I can't trust you to handle these little details that are important. Like I've scheduled my whole day around meeting with a doctor's appointment, but you don't really have the address. And you told this story in the book about your

• 1:15:27Rayna Greenberg?

  husband. By the way, I was really young and I was a brat and I didn't understand mental health and I'm better now. But you tell the story in the book about going on a vacation with your husband, I think for your anniversary to this treehouse and he had planned it and you had like forgotten to schedule the babysitter on the right day.

• 1:15:42Speaker 02

  This was part of that whole system breakdown, actually, that I talk about. And I had, what I had done is hyper focused on trying to get all of my work done and everything in order. And that, I was trying so hard to get all of the details because I'm a person who like never get all my work done and I would take my laptop on vacation and then my husband would be mad at me because I was working while we were supposed to be having a romantic weekend. So I was like, I'm gonna hyper focus. So my hyper focus had been on getting all of my work done ahead of time so that I could go to the vacation and not have my computer. I was like, this is the thing that's most important to him. So this is what I'm gonna focus on. I'm gonna focus all of my energy on this.

• 1:16:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  And it wasn't that I didn't care about the other details. I did, but it's that because all of my energy was focused on getting my work done, so I would not take my laptop. I fucked up everything else.

• 1:16:30Speaker 02

  It's certainly not about not caring. And I think understanding that this is how people function, it allows you to have kindness for them, that you focused on the one thing on the top of the list that was the most important, you thought.

• 1:16:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:42Speaker 02

  I thought, and that's something I say to people. I often get asked now, like, what is one piece of advice you would give to someone who has an ADHD partner? And I say, do not take their ADHD personally. It is not about you. It's not that they don't care about you. It's not that they don't love you. Their brain is functioning in the way that it's trying to do its best. And sometimes that means they're going to miss details or not give you the attention you want, or have split attention because they need to focus on work because they got behind at work. But it does, it's not about you. And I think that was a big problem in my marriage is that my husband took my ADHD so personally.

• 1:17:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I had a partner with ADHD as well. And I like look back and some of these like huge fights, which we had a lot of issues, but some of those really big ones were, I don't know, this time we were supposed to, he was supposed to pick me up. We were supposed to go to this friend's wedding and he thought he had enough time to go across town and pick something up and run this errand. And there was like nowhere near close enough time. It blew up the day. It blew up the wedding. Like I couldn't get past it. And so, you know, and that was informed by previous things that had happened. But obviously, yeah, it was like taking it personally and not keeping in mind that he didn't do this as a personal attack. He thought he had enough time to go run the errand, you know? And so it was just a lot of instances like that. And so I really appreciate that you gave that advice

• 1:18:02Ashley Hesseltine?

  for anyone listening there too.

• 1:18:04Speaker 02

  I would also say like, don't partner with someone who has ADHD. If you are a person who's like very concerned with being on time, like if you're the kind of person who's like really mad when people are five minutes late.

• 1:18:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Me.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  You're that guy. Do not date a person with ADHD. You're in for a world of hurt and arguments. If you can't have a sense of humor about your relationship and about your partner, do not date a person with ADHD.

• 1:18:25Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, I like the advice and it's important and it just, it.

• 1:18:29Speaker 02

  Like you said, it helps me to not take it personally because I would really go like berserk about this stuff and it's not personal. No one wants to forget a detail or mess something like that up and it has nothing to do with you. I'm sure that everybody would love to be functioning at 110% when it comes to these things.

• 1:18:43Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. So we want to talk a little bit about the finality of your relationship and I was just watching this reel that you had posted and kind of the overall message was just not just do it, just get divorced, but just, you know, like it's gonna be tough, but it will lead you to more happiness down the road. And also I pulled this, I think it's a title from something that you wrote and it says, I chose my career over my marriage because it brought me more joy. And that sounds a little reductive, like, oh, like, but I wanted you to obviously explain it and you wrote a whole article about it. But I'm sorry to throw two questions at you, but I want to kind of talk about both of these things, like the career playing into it and then actually the decision to end the marriage.

• 1:19:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, you know, going, what we were talking about earlier, you know, at home in my, growing up even, I wasn't getting a lot of validation at home, but I was at school. And so that's where I put my energy. And in my marriage, I realized I was kind of repeating a lot of the same patterns in my marriage, because don't we all, don't we all just like go and repeat our childhood and before we do enough therapy and figure it out. And so I was in this marriage where my husband shouldn't have had an ADHD wife. He needs a neurotypical partner, right? So he did take my ADHD personally and he didn't have a sense of humor about my hyperfixations. And so my marriage was kind of miserable. I mean, he was always upset with me and disappointed with me and mad at me. And not that he wasn't justified sometimes, like there were things that were legitimately frustrating, that

• 1:20:09Speaker 02

  he had every right to be frustrated with. We just weren't a good match. But I get a lot of validation from my work where I put a lot of my focus and a lot of my energy and a lot of my passion. I also tried really hard to be a good partner. I tried everything I could and I exhausted the limits of my humanity to try and make my marriage work. I, I just, I couldn't do anything else.

• 1:20:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  It sounds like it.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  That's when I decided like this isn't, I can, I can either choose joy and, and my own happiness for the rest of my life, or I can struggle in this for the rest of my life. And I was in the shower, thinking, crying, because that's where I would go to cry after masking, again, going to, going to the shower to cry.

• 1:20:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, cry in the shower.

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  Yeah. Didn't want my kids to see me, you know? And I thought to myself, if I stay in this marriage, in this miserable marriage. I know for a fact that when I am old and on my deathbed, I'm going to regret it. And I also know that if I can just get through this really hard, icky part of divorcing with kids and just divorce is hard and it's sad and there's a house to sell. You know, I knew it was going to be messy, but I was like, I know that if I can get through this, I'm going to be so much happier on the other side. And I am so much happier.

• 1:21:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  We love to hear that.

• 1:21:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Congratulations. And it just, it sounds like you tried everything. You went to therapy, you got a diagnosis and it's hard to feel like it's not enough for another person.

• 1:21:26Speaker 02

  And we tried, we did a lot of couples therapy. You know, he tried too, but we, we just, no one's the bad guy here. We just were poorly matched.

• 1:21:33Ashley Hesseltine?

  I, I really like discussing the type of person that could be with a, a person with ADHD. And like, I don't obviously know your ex-husband at all, but you mentioned the sense of humor about it. And I think just hearing a little bit more about your marriage makes me understand what you mean. You know, you just need someone that is not so tightly wound, that can laugh some of this stuff off. Like, oh, that's just how she's going to be, you know, that's just how he's going to be. And that's just not everybody.

• 1:21:59Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:21:59Ashley Hesseltine?

  And you can't make yourself be that type of person if you're not that type of person. You know, I think about my current fiance and I think he really puts-

• 1:22:07Rayna Greenberg?

  Current fiance is funny.

• 1:22:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Current. Why did I say it like that?

• 1:22:09Rayna Greenberg?

  There might be another one.

• 1:22:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  You never know.

• 1:22:13Rayna Greenberg?

  Current implies like it might go away.

• 1:22:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, he's my first fiance.

• 1:22:16Rayna Greenberg?

  This fiance.

• 1:22:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  This one.

• 1:22:18Rayna Greenberg?

  Unlike the last-

• 1:22:18Speaker 02

  Okay, J Lo.

• 1:22:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Like, my current one.

• 1:22:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, he's a little bit affluent.

• 1:22:22Rayna Greenberg?

  Not to be mistaken for the last three.

• 1:22:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Exactly. And he just, he puts up with a lot with me. I mean, you know, I am late, I can be really scattered. I always have to work on our trips. You know, I try my best to get all my work done, but it's kind of, he just really goes with it. He makes fun of me, like he'll always quote me, he's like, I just have to do 30 minutes of work. I just have to do 30 minutes of work. You know, he really rolls with the punches. I'm not diagnosing myself with ADHD, but like those, those qualities that would fall into that bucket. I have some, I think we all have some. And he really just is very relaxed and go with the flow. And, you know, for those quirks that I have that, you know, also deal with likes, a person that can get really hyper-focused and, you know, gifted as well.

• 1:23:07Speaker 02

  And I think I need a neurodivergent partner, probably.

• 1:23:10Ashley Hesseltine?

  You think? It would work better with someone than that?

• 1:23:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. It just, it sounds like you need somebody that has a little bit more of a sense of humor about this. And I just, I, I kind of, not that I like don't, in my younger years, I definitely did. And it's, it's hard for me for somebody that's just like, can't really get out of the house. And like, I should have more of a sense of humor and more kindness. And I think these kinds of conversations allow you to do that, allow you to see that like, can you just reframe it? It's kind of cute that she like, you know, has to run back into the house to like, fill up a water bottle, grab a sweater, and then answer an email, and then we're 15 minutes late and talk about Ashley.

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  Getting my kid to preschool this morning, had to run back in twice because we forgot the extra shoes. And I was like, oh shit, I forgot the fruit snacks for the class snack. So even with my, with my five-year-old, I had to run back in twice.

• 1:23:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's so funny. I didn't realize you were talking about me just then. Yeah. Um, but like every time we're in the lounge at the airport, like we're about to leave, it's time to go. We're on a time schedule and I just always have to do one more thing and you've been really good. You laugh it off.

• 1:24:01Rayna Greenberg?

  I've been having a lot of sex lately. Chill about it, but I also know this about Ashley and I know that when she says it's time to walk to the gate, what she really means is I have to, I just have to go to the bathroom. And then on the way out, I just have to fill my water bottle. Like when she says it's,

• 1:24:16Ashley Hesseltine?

  duh.

• 1:24:17Rayna Greenberg?

  We were staying together in La Jolla and I was like, are you ready to go? And she was like, I just have to answer this email. I just have to go to the bathroom. I just have to change my pants. It's all, when she sat down just to answer an email and I thought we were on the way out the door. I was like, is this, is this serious? We used to talk like a customer support person at Revolve. But like, there's so many other good things about Ashley. She works really hard. She will work all night long and you know.

• 1:24:42Ashley Hesseltine?

  But some people couldn't deal. They'd be like, I, I can't, you know? And I've watched other couples, I guess, kind of have those things that like the, I just have to run back into the house. I forgot my phone. Whether, you know, I'm thinking about a girlfriend of mine. And the way her husband reacted was poorly. It was, he was annoyed, he's resentful. You can't deal with that day to day. I mean, it's, it's gonna fracture your relationship. So. I mean, I know that going forward, like I need someone who is very secure because I am.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  I'm doing a lot of things on my own. Someone who's really secure and has a really good sense of humor and who can go with the flow and roll with the punches. And if plans change, not take it personally and not get pissed at me and just be like, okay, well, what's the new plan? What are we gonna do? Let's, let's wing it. Oh, yeah. Like, I am the kind of person who often will get derailed on a road trip. Maybe I got lost. Maybe I wanted to stop at an antique market or a thrift store or like check out a little town for something to eat, you know? And I just don't, I'm like, okay, whatever. My trip's derailed by a few hours. Fine. Like, whatever. I'm gonna, I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm going to enjoy. And that's kind of the theme of the final essay in the book called The Scenic Route. But like, plans change. Shit happens, right? Like, I think I got so good at rolling with the punches because I had to.

• 1:25:55Speaker 02

  Because when I was younger and undiagnosed and untreated, like, I just fuck shit up all the time. So I had to. I had to roll with the punches. And so that's the kind of person I am now. Some people are just also naturally good at that. And I think I need a person like that in my next partner.

• 1:26:12Rayna Greenberg?

  And I think somebody that can just say, you know, we all have our own brand of what's annoying and hard to deal with. And you need somebody that's excited about all the other stuff and all like, that you can be whimsical and you can pause and like go to some other town for two hours and just be like silly and spontaneous. And like, that's a great quality. And so somebody that finds it like charming that you do things like that.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  And my, my ex would never stop. He would never derail a road trip to like stop at an antique mall or a thrift store. And I, I should have probably not married him because of that. But I was, you know, again, I was in that hyper focus, right? Like, like if, I, I will never get into a relationship with someone who refuses to do that again.

• 1:26:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  There you go. That's, that's the bar.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Ashley Hesseltine?

  And so dating now, you're single, you're on the scene. What's the vibe?

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a roller coaster now. I am dating and it's not like it was when I was younger, obviously. It's, I have a lot more self-awareness and maturity and generally drink a lot less. And I have, I, I no longer, I'm like, I want to get married and have kids. And so that's a really nice place to be where I'm like, I don't have an agenda.

• 1:27:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:18Speaker 02

  And I would like to have a partner someday. I would like to have a functioning partnership that's happy with someone who does get me and appreciate the good things about me and who also can live with the more frustrating things. But dating. Is also a dopamine-seeking activity.

• 1:27:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  Hmm, okay.

• 1:27:36Speaker 02

  And I find myself repeating some patterns that I was less aware of when I was younger.

• 1:27:44Ashley Hesseltine?

  Interesting.

• 1:27:45Speaker 02

  And part of it, I talk early in the book about like the shame that I sometimes felt and the awkwardness and like the, just the low self-esteem that I had as a young person. And I also am not great with ambiguity. So in order for me to be like, this person likes me, they need to be very explicit about the fact that they like me and they're into me. And I've, I've been caught off guard, both before marriage and after learning that like a guy friend was into me and I just like, I didn't pick up on it. I did not get it. I totally missed all the signals.

• 1:28:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay.

• 1:28:16Speaker 02

  Because they weren't explicit with me about the fact that they were into me. And so I tend to date men who are very clear that they are very into me and, and that they're like excited to date me. And that is also generally like the beginning of a dumpster fire. Because those.

• 1:28:37Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:28:38Speaker 02

  Right, because the person who's like, I don't even want to call it love bombing, because I feel like love bombing is this like intentional weird thing. But like people who like, too much too soon.

• 1:28:47Ashley Hesseltine?

  Come on too strong.

• 1:28:47Speaker 02

  Because I do that too. And I can't, because it's so fun and exciting. Like I can't resist it and I get caught up in it and I'm hyper focused on it. And it's like, I've had a few of these now where it's like, oh, he really likes me. I really like him. We're just gonna like, and it's like, I, in my brain, I'm like, Emily, you are the woman in the horror movie running up the stairs while a guy is chasing you with an axe. Why are you running up the stairs? Like, get the hell out of the house. And I know it's happening, I know it's happening, but I still do it.

• 1:29:17Ashley Hesseltine?

  So if you have that confusion or that ambiguity, does that make you spiral? I mean, do you really need it for, to kind of stay more balanced?

• 1:29:25Speaker 02

  If I don't feel like the person is, and I get, some of this also probably comes from having a marriage where I felt like my spouse just didn't like me and I don't think he did. Like if I don't feel like this person is like. Excited and eager to see me and wants to see me and wants to date me. I'm just like, it used to be I would spiral, even, even like leaving my marriage a little and I was like, what's going on? Like, I would feel anxious. And I recently decided, like, I don't, I don't have time for that. I, I don't want to feel that way. I don't deserve to feel that way. I don't need to feel that way. So like, if I sense even like a subtle shift in energy, right? I'm like, I think they're, they're not as excited about this as they were. And then I'm just like, nah, I think I'm done. Okay. Like, I'm not gonna get, like, let myself get anxious about it. And so there, there are

• 1:30:09Speaker 02

  these patterns, I think, that are, that are repeating. And it makes dating very fun, and also a bit of a challenge.

• 1:30:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, it's a challenge for everybody.

• 1:30:19Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah, it's a challenge for me. I mean, it's a challenge for everybody. And it sounds like you're at least aware of the patterns that you have and not leaning into them and what feels familiar, or, you know, really leading with like, I want to be with somebody that likes me.

• 1:30:32Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, that should be the goal.

• 1:30:34Rayna Greenberg?

  You know, like, I was joking about how Ashley is, but like, I can laugh it off the, the latest because I love her. And she brings other good things to the table. And like, that's what we should be able to do with everybody is say, like, we all have flaws, but they're so great in all these other ways.

• 1:30:48Ashley Hesseltine?

  But it's not a flaw to not want ambiguity. I mean, it's, we should all be searching for somebody that we know they like us, and they're showing up for her, us, and they're texting us back, and they're making plans. And of course, there's too much, and there's too much too soon. But like, that also still should be the, the goal.

• 1:31:03Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. It's just, I just get a little too excited in the, that they're really, you know, a little, little too much too soon feels really fun and exciting.

• 1:31:12Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay. I now I kind of see what you're, what you're finding the, the issue to be is like, the dopamine seeking. So, but it's not a bad.

• 1:31:21Rayna Greenberg?

  I know. It's hard, it's hard for me to find the balance because I really get excited when somebody wants to text me and see me and they make plans and they're intentional. And I feel the tiniest energy shift. And I'm just like, whoop, I'm out. You know, I don't, I'm not the girl that keeps texting and pushing. And it's hard to find the balance, you know, because I think that people are busy and not everybody's textiles are like yours, you know?

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  And who can keep up that much energy? Right? Like in the beginning, everybody's excited about everything. However, when you have ADHD and you hyper-focus and like you put all like it's multiplied, it's magnified. So think of that early dating excitement. When you have ADHD, it's magnified. I luckily have gotten to a point where I have enough self-awareness about it that I can turn off the emotional part and just be like, I'm having a lot of fun with this right now. And I'm going to like suck all the fun out of this that I possibly can without getting emotionally attached.

• 1:32:12Rayna Greenberg?

  Okay, good.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. But then I think, is that preventing me from building a relationship? I don't, I don't know.

• 1:32:20Rayna Greenberg?

  Listen, it's all hard, you know?

• 1:32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:23Rayna Greenberg?

  But it's fun and hopefully you enjoy the journey a little bit and

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  I am, I'm having so much fun.

• 1:32:27Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, well.

• 1:32:27Speaker 02

  Like even though dating is frustrating, like I am having so much fun.

• 1:32:30Rayna Greenberg?

  In Kansas City?

• 1:32:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, shockingly, shockingly.

• 1:32:33Rayna Greenberg?

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:32:34Speaker 02

  Though every time something blows up, I'm like, something just blew up yesterday. But every time something blows up, I'm just like, oh, God, like, am I going to find somebody who I have like such good banter with who's smart in Kansas City, who's like, single and in his 40s? Like, real, I don't know if that person exists, but you know what?

• 1:32:48Rayna Greenberg?

  I, I love this.

• 1:32:49Speaker 02

  Somebody always shows up.

• 1:32:50Rayna Greenberg?

  Um, I think you're gonna get them in the set, divorce guys, I love them. Someone else has trained them. They don't have all the terrible habits of a man who's never been married. You're gonna get them on the second round.

• 1:33:00Speaker 02

  But you don't want a freshly divorced man. Stay far, far away from freshly divorced.

• 1:33:04Ashley Hesseltine?

  You can't be the first person post-divorce.

• 1:33:06Rayna Greenberg?

  We're looking at 18 months after divorce.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  At least, at least.

• 1:33:09Ashley Hesseltine?

  Couple other people under his ballot that he's dated.

• 1:33:11Rayna Greenberg?

  You gotta see how like, clean he can keep his home without a wife.

• 1:33:15Speaker 02

  Totally.

• 1:33:16Rayna Greenberg?

  But I have hope for you. And listen, it's really brave to say like, I'm married to somebody for 11 years. I have two kids. I could just stay and I choose me instead.

• 1:33:24Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, I had a question for you. Do you tell them about the ADHD early on?

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  Yes. It's, it's not on, well, my, all my dating profiles are paused right now because, ugh, there's, it's same people over and over, you know? I'm bored. The dopamine's gone there for now. I need to give it a break. But on my Hinge profile, it says, "Dating me is like," it's one of the prompts. And I say, "Having 75 tabs open." And I feel like other neurodivergent people know exactly what that means.

• 1:33:49Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's your coded language.

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And so, but I don't, I also like hide my identity on my hinge. I, my name is just M. And I say, I'm a writer because I don't, I, there is so much about me that you can just Google, like, and find all of these essays I wrote about my divorce and my book. You know, like, I don't, I wouldn't want someone who I hadn't gone out with yet to find that information. And so I don't disclose that before a date, but I always do on the first date because I'm an overshare and I can't help but.

• 1:34:15Ashley Hesseltine?

  It's part of your personnel. It's like, why would you not open with it?

• 1:34:18Speaker 02

  But you know, I'm, I'm not ashamed of my ADHD and I don't think it's anything to be ashamed of. I just, I, I just don't put it on my dating profiles, though there's that 75 tabs thing. And then, um, yeah, I'm always very forthcoming with it.

• 1:34:29Ashley Hesseltine?

  Have you gotten on Field?

• 1:34:31Speaker 02

  No, but I heard you talking about it. Was it earlier this week?

• 1:34:34Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just think you should, like, I can't recommend it enough. I've never been on it. The brain has just been having such a good time.

• 1:34:39Speaker 02

  But here's what I was thinking. It sounded amazing. It sounds amazing. Like, hearing you talk about it, I want to, I'm tempted. However, I believe, and maybe I'll just get on and lurk, but.

• 1:34:50Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  It, I feel like it's going to be a very different experience in Kansas City than it is in LA. Cause everybody in LA is like a little, you know, like, like when I was in New York, everybody's a little, little bit of a freak, a little bit normal.

• 1:35:01Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah, you really could find some people who have like some bodies in their basement in Kansas City.

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  And it's not, it's not a very big city. Like, I, I had no idea how many of my friends were in open marriages until I got back on online dating.

• 1:35:14Ashley Hesseltine?

  Oh, my God.

• 1:35:16Speaker 02

  Or who are looking for a third.

• 1:35:18Ashley Hesseltine?

  That's crazy.

• 1:35:21Ashley Hesseltine?

  They're on Field. Just get on Field and lurk. Yeah. You'll get, you'll, I feel like you'll be able to suss people out if they seem too scary. But I, I just think, why not? And, you know, maybe that's where the ADHD people are because the just one partner isn't enough, you know, they need to, oh, they're out.

• 1:35:35Speaker 02

  But see, here's another problem, though. Like, I like, I want everything all the time, but I'm also a monogamist. Like, I don't, my brain can't. Hyper focus on two relationships, you know?

• 1:35:43Rayna Greenberg?

  Oh, I put that in my profile. Mine says I want a life partner, I want monogamy, I'm too vanilla to be here. I'm just like, no, no, no. I have hundreds of messages. I've got like-

• 1:35:52Speaker 02

  But again, LA. LA versus Kansas City.

• 1:35:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  I just like, I think, just, just give it a try. Just get on there and lurk and see how you feel.

• 1:35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'll try. But all I'm gonna find is a bunch of people I already know who want a third or, or have opened-

• 1:36:04Rayna Greenberg?

  Well, isn't that fun? Then you have some good gossip for brunch, you know?

• 1:36:08Ashley Hesseltine?

  Yeah. Okay. Well, I think that's a great place to wrap up. I, we really loved this conversation. I mean, this was new and different. And I'm curious, like, you have your book and you're obviously writing, is there anything you're working on now? Or do you have plans or?

• 1:36:24Speaker 02

  Well, I mentioned earlier that many years ago, I timed out of reading comprehension on the GRE because I wanted to go to grad school and get an MFA. So even though I don't really need an MFA anymore, I just got accepted into an MFA program. So I'm going to, thank you, I'm gonna take a few years, I'm gonna do like an extended version and take my time so I can still work. And I have an idea for another book, but I'm gonna-

• 1:36:46Ashley Hesseltine?

  Love it.

• 1:36:47Speaker 02

  Yeah. I don't want to say it, say it out loud and people, then I'm gonna feel the pressure to do it and then I'm gonna lose my excitement for it and then not do it. So.

• 1:36:54Ashley Hesseltine?

  Well, when it's locked in, let us know. Send us the book.

• 1:36:57Rayna Greenberg?

  And your Instagram is great and you're really open about your divorce and your relationship and you have a Substack people can subscribe to, I think.

• 1:37:05Speaker 02

  Yes, I need, I'm very, very overdue in sending it, but I am that Emily Ferris all over the internet. And it's Ferris is F A R R I S. And I have Substack, website, Instagram, all over.

• 1:37:17Rayna Greenberg?

  Perfect. And your book is available anywhere that you can buy books?

• 1:37:20Speaker 02

  Anywhere you can buy books. I recommend buying it. You know, I like independent bookstores.

• 1:37:23Ashley Hesseltine?

  Totally.

• 1:37:24Rayna Greenberg?

  That's cool. Yeah. It's called, I'll Just Be Five More Minutes. It's full of just anecdotes and stories and it's really just raw and honest and it's-

• 1:37:32Speaker 02

  And it's an easy read for neurodivergent people because it's, there are a few longer essays, but it's, it's a lot of really short essays and, and quick reads.

• 1:37:40Ashley Hesseltine?

  Okay. Well, thank you so much again. And we love talking to you and you guys follow her everywhere, get the book, do all the things.

• 1:37:46Rayna Greenberg?

  Yeah. Thank you so much just for your openness and honesty. This was really great.

• 1:37:49Speaker 02

  Thank you. This was so fun.

• 1:37:51Ashley Hesseltine?

  Thanks. Bye. Well, we hope you guys enjoyed this episode and you can find us at girlsgottaeat.com. We are Girls Gotta Eat Podcast on Instagram and TikTok. I am ashhes.com and on social, Reina is Rayna Greenberg. Subscribe on YouTube. Share this episode with a friend and we will see you Thursday. Have a good week, guys. Bye.