What’s Your North Star? Jon Gordon On The Primacy of Vision & Why Positivity Is Paramount

It's never too late to transform your life. I didn't find my place in the world until my mid-40's. Similarly, this week's guest risked his successful but deeply unfulfilling business to pursue his truth as a speaker and author. I'm glad I took that leap of faith. In truth, I can't imagine my life otherwise. Jon Gordon not only feels the same, he believes everyone holds the power to transcend their circumstances and blaze a purposeful life of meaning. This week I sit down the celebrated bestselling author and prolific keynote speaker to discuss what it takes to cultivate that vision and the commitment required to manifest untapped reservoirs of human potential. What holds most people back. And the specific steps required to break the glass ceiling on performance and potential in career, sport and life. A graduate of Cornell University with a masters in teaching from Emory, Jon Gordon has inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world with highly instructive teachings on the themes of leadership, human potential, teamwork and positivity – principles that have been beneficial to many a Fortune 500 company — such as GE, Wells Fargo, State Farm, Campbell Soup, Dell, Publix, and Southwest Airlines — and a litany of professional and collegiate sports teams, including The Los Angeles Dodgers, The Atlanta Falcons, LA Clippers, Miami Heat, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clemson Football and more. Jon also impacts thousands of teachers and students each year through his work with schools, universities like West Point, hospitals and non-profit organizations. Jon has been featured on The Today Show, CNN, CNBC, The Golf Channel, Fox and Friends, in numerous magazines and newspapers such as The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, and he is the author of an astounding 17 books, including 5 bestsellers: The Energy Bus*,The Carpenter, Training Camp, You Win in the Locker Room First and The Power of Positive Leadership. This isn't just a conversation about success — it's about finding fulfillment and purpose in every hour of every day. It’s about how he cultivates, nurtures and practices the prolific creativity required to write 17 books. It’s about the core leadership and teamwork principles he teaches that have positively impacted a litany of professional athletes, coaches, organizations, students, teachers, schools, corporations, and non-profits. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  So many people reach out to me now, and they are full of fear about taking the next step. But I can speak from my own experience. I did it. I lived it. I stepped out of the faith. I went through my fear. So I can help that person who is thinking about the next step, or they're worried about that, or I can tell they don't have faith. They're full of fear. And I'll let them know, you're full of fear. And if you really, truly want to create your future, you have to embrace that, move through it, take a step of faith, a leap of faith sometimes, to create the life that you want. And if you're not willing to do that, if you're not able to do that, then I don't believe the universe, God, whatever you want to call it, will get behind you to create what you need to create.

• 1:49Speaker 01

  So I believe God will move heaven and earth when you're on the path and you're willing to take that leap of faith to go do what you're meant to do.

• 1:56Rich Roll?

  That's John Gordon, this week, on the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey everybody. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome or welcome back to the show where each and every week for the last almost five years, I have visited you weekly with long form, at times intense, sometimes emotional, deep dives with some of the world's most interesting, most influential, compelling thought leaders, personalities, paradigm breakers across all categories of health and wellness, fitness, nutrition, entrepreneurship, entertainment, spirituality, mindfulness. And in the case of today's guest, John Gordon, leadership. John is a really great guy. This is a very special, very cool conversation. But before I get into it, I'm not sure if you noticed, but we actually filmed the last podcast, The

• 2:54Rich Roll?

  Coach's Corner with Chris House, Caroline Burkle. It's up on YouTube. If you missed it, I'll put a link in the show notes up to that. Definitely check it out. It's no biggie. It's hardly Cooperican in its aesthetic. It's just a single locked off wide shot, a two-shot. But it was cool to finally do this. It was actually thrilling. And from what I can gather from all the comments, people are really digging it and wanting me to do more of this. And I would love to do that. There's something really special about being able to see the dynamic unfold. It's not for everyone. Not everybody wants to enjoy the podcast on YouTube, but there are a lot of people out there that get most of their content on YouTube. So it would be really great to serve the audience in this way. But

• 3:35Rich Roll?

  here's the thing, in order to make this happen, I really need help. I'm just too busy to do all this myself. For this video, we had a photographer with us up in Tahoe, Tomas Jakobowski. That's how you say Jakobowski. And then I FedExed the hard drive to my friend, Reese Robinson, on the East Coast, and he did the edit, and it was fine. It was great, in fact. But in order to really make this work, make this sing, and do this right for the future and for going forward. I need like a studio manager. I need somebody who can help configure, build out, set up this studio space that I have into a proper, professional multimedia studio for filming,

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  not just the podcast, but a wide array of video projects that I would like to execute on. Everything from vlogging to instructional stuff, to motivational stuff. And I need somebody who is not just proficient, but a really talented videographer, shooter, somebody who really knows their way around a camera, lenses, lighting, maybe you even have your own equipment. It's not a must, but it would be good. A wizard at editing, graphics, motion graphics, Photoshop, someone who appreciates and understands great design and aesthetics, somebody who isn't gonna just do what I ask, but who has the talent and the creativity and the work ethic and the desire to really own the position and the responsibility, who doesn't need to be micromanaged and can really help elevate my work and the

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  messages that I'm trying to put out into the world. Also, and this is super important, I need somebody who is local. I really don't want to do this remotely. At this point, I'm not sure if it's a full-time job, but it's pretty close. I can definitely put this person to work pretty much every day. And the key thing is that they need to be able to be with me onsite, in person, I don't know, at least three or four days a week, maybe even more. So, if this is you, or you know somebody who might be a good fit for this position, I would love to hear from you. So here's what you do. Send an email to [email protected] with all your relevant experience, demo reel, whatever, and I look

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  forward to checking it out. Great. I'm really excited about this because I really do want to step into the video space, but I want to do it properly, correctly, and with the right partner in crime. All right, John Gordon. Like I said, great guy, great. This is a very fun and engaging conversation. So who is John? John is a prolific keynote speaker, a bestselling author, he's a Cornell grad. We actually found out that we were there at the same time. And he's got a master's in teaching from Emory. This is a guy who has inspired millions of readers and audiences around the world with highly instructive teachings on the themes of leadership, human potential, teamwork, and positivity. Principles that have been

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  Very beneficial to many a Fortune 500 company, including GE, Wells Fargo, State Farm, Campbell's Soup, Dell, Publix, Southwest Airlines, as well as a litany of professional and collegiate sports teams, including the LA Dodgers, the Atlanta Falcons, the LA Clippers, Miami Heat, Pittsburgh Pirates, Clemson Football, on and on and on. John also impacts thousands of teachers and students each year through his work with schools, universities like West Point, hospitals, and nonprofit organizations. He has been featured on the Today Show, CNN, CNBC, The Golf Channel, Fox and Friends, in numerous magazines and newspapers like The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times, and he is the author of an astounding 17 books, which is insane, including five

• 7:15Rich Roll?

  bestsellers: The Energy Bus, The Carpenter, Training Camp, You Win in the Locker Room First, and The Power of Positive Leadership. I've got a few more things I want to say about John before we launch into the conversation, but first.

• 7:35Rich Roll?

  Okay, John Gordon. So, this is a conversation about John's path from successful but deeply unfulfilled businessperson, he had a previous career before he did what he does now, to eventually figuring out how to live his truth, his bliss, as an author and a speaker. It's about how he cultivates, nurtures, and practices the prolific creativity required to write 17 books. It's about the core leadership and teamwork principles he teaches that have positively impacted the NFL, the NBA, all these college coaches and teams, and Fortune 500 companies, and school districts, and hospitals, and nonprofits, on and on and on. It's about the primacy of positivity, how to confront negativity, what he calls energy

• 8:20Rich Roll?

  vampires, and convert it or them to positivity. It's about commitment, it's about service, it's about giving back, and it's about the importance of culture within an organization. Who are we and what do we stand for? And it's also about the journey to discovering what motivates you, what is your why. You know, we don't get burnt out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forgot why we're doing it. You get that? It's really cool, right? It's a cool idea. All right. So buckle up and let's talk to John.

• 8:56Rich Roll?

  All right, John Gordon in the house.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  Great to be here.

• 8:58Rich Roll?

  Long time coming, so awesome to be sitting down with you. Thank you for opening up your, the Santa Monica Annex of the Gordon family domicile, so that we could have this conversation. I, it's funny, as I was driving over here, when I, right when I got out of rehab, my first apartment was literally like two blocks from here, so back in my old hood. But, welcome to LA, man. What are you guys doing down here?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  It's good to be here. Well, we always loved LA. We'd come to visit and we would stay in this area in a hotel. We'd come for a week at a time to escape the Florida heat.

• 9:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  And then, spending more time here, we just said, you know, we just love it here. It'd be great to come and spend more time here. So then we ultimately said, all right, let's start looking for a place. And we found a place, you know, a small condo that we could spend time together here. So we were here for about a month so far.

• 9:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 9:52Speaker 01

  Spend another couple of weeks and then we'll go back to Florida.

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  That's great. So you have, you have two kids. You have a daughter who's interning over at UCLA this summer.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Right. She's interning there. My son is a competitive tennis player, so escape the Florida heat. Play a little tennis, play matches out here, hitting with some college guys, having a great experience.

• 10:09Rich Roll?

  What's it like to be your kid? They feel the heat? They have to be, you know, high performing athletes?

• 10:14Speaker 01

  I think-

• 10:15Rich Roll?

  How's that work?

• 10:17Speaker 01

  I think, you know, I, I do encourage them a lot. There is an expectation of just giving our best, but really don't focus on the outcome a lot. But I do think it's probably something they feel. You know, they know I speak to these teams. They know I work with all these organizations. My daughter went to Clemson because I worked with Clemson football for the past five years.

• 10:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  She would always come up with me to games, sit in Dabo Sweeney's office, you know, hear us talk about excellence and teamwork and building a great team. So I think they're naturally, you know, used to it. It's ingrained in them, but I don't want them to feel pressure, but they feel enough pressure on their own.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, what if, what if one of them said, you know, I don't like sports?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  My daughter was a lacrosse player and was recruited to play lacrosse.

• 11:03Rich Roll?

  Right, your sport.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  And I played lacrosse in college, so I wanted her to play lacrosse. I mean, I have to admit, I wanted her to play. And she loved it. She got good at it, was recruited by some colleges. Ultimately, she said, I don't want to play in college, Dad. It was hard at first.

• 11:21Rich Roll?

  And you said what?

• 11:21Speaker 01

  I said, what do you mean?

• 11:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, come on.

• 11:24Speaker 01

  What?

• 11:24Rich Roll?

  Be honest.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  I said, pay for your own college then. No, I'm just kidding. I, uh, no, I said, you know what? I want you to go where you want to go. Go to a school that you want to go to. Where if you were injured and you couldn't play, you would still want to be at that school.

• 11:39Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Don't go to a school just for lacrosse. She almost went to USC.

• 11:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  And didn't play well in a tournament. Coach, uh, stopped recruiting her. So it was a blessing in many ways because she ultimately didn't want to play. So we had a conversation halfway through her freshman year of college. Do you miss lacrosse, Jade? She was not at all that.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  No.

• 11:59Speaker 01

  I said, well, then you made the right decision.

• 12:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, good. Well, that's, that's good parenting.

• 12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:03Rich Roll?

  I like that. Um, well, it's, it's, it's cool to talk to you. Um, you know, we've got a bunch of mutual, uh, friends and colleagues. I think you first came across my radar on your, the first time you were on Michael Gervais podcast. And, you know, I just love Michael. I just think he's the best.

• 12:20Speaker 01

  The best.

• 12:21Rich Roll?

  And I think Ryan Holiday is the one that introduced us. And I know you went, did you go surfing with Rob Bell?

• 12:26Speaker 01

  I did. I went surfing with Rob Bell the other day. A friend just asked, it was me and Rob.

• 12:31Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  In the water, on, on our boards and he's a good surfer. So the wave would come.

• 12:37Rich Roll?

  He goes like every day.

• 12:38Speaker 01

  Oh, the wave would come in like, all right, John, I'm going to take this one in. He'd go in, I'd wait for him to come back. We'd have a great conversation for a little bit. Another wave would come, all right, I'm taking this one in. And I didn't try to surf as much. I was more trying to work on my paddling.

• 12:51Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Sitting up on a board. I mean, this was my first time.

• 12:53Rich Roll?

  Do you surf? Are you, so you don't surf in Florida?

• 12:55Speaker 01

  No, this was my first time surfing with Rob Bell. So my wife said, why would you, for the first time surfing ever, try to be with Rob Bell for the first time? Never met him before in person.

• 13:05Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 13:06Speaker 01

  And do that? I said, that's exactly why you would do it.

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  That's the best way to get to know somebody.

• 13:11Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, something different, something ludicrous. I mean, what a great story to tell that, you know, Rob Bell actually was very instrumental in my spiritual journey.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Years ago, never met, but I listened to a sermon he gave. About Jesus is a Jewish Rabbi and I grew up Jewish.

• 13:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 13:27Speaker 01

  And so it was really something that resonated with me. So I have followed him ever since and I saw that he was surfing. And it was one of the reasons why I was inspired to start surfing. I have two other good friends, Michael Dravay.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 13:38Speaker 01

  Yogi.

• 13:39Rich Roll?

  Big time surfer.

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yogi Roth, big time surfer.

• 13:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 13:42Speaker 01

  And Brett Hughes, great guy, great surfer. And so Yogi and Brett took me out yesterday and Michael and I are gonna go out sometime this week or next to go surfing. So.

• 13:52Rich Roll?

  He's a shredder.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's supposedly unbelievable. So for me, it's like LA, something different. Take on a new challenge. I'm 46. You know, don't be stale, embrace the process of what surfing will require and do something unique and different. So it was really a cool story to to just go out with Rob and have that experience with him.

• 14:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's the best.

• 14:13Speaker 01

  And we had a great conversation too. I mean, we just talked about life and spirituality and just the journey and it was just great. So it was like spirituality and surfing, being in that moment with nature. It was incredible.

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  Well, your spiritual journey is definitely, you know, one of the main things that I wanna unpack and get into, get into with you.

• 14:32Speaker 01

  Oh, great.

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  I think it's really interesting. No, but I, but before I do that, I kinda wanna step it back a little bit. I mean, you just said you're 46, I'm 50. You played lacrosse at Cornell. I went to law school at Cornell. So what, what years were you there? I think we were there at the same time.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  I was there 89, 90 to 93.

• 14:50Rich Roll?

  Okay. So yeah, we had a little overlap. I graduated law school in 94.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  So we were there for two, two years, two years at the same time.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  Did we hang out at the Palms together?

• 15:00Rich Roll?

  I, I don't know. Like, here's the thing, like, my universe, when I was in law school, involved being in the law school building, which was like The Shining, you know, it's just like, you're just stuck there. And then making the pilgrimage to Ruloff's. That was about it. Or the Palms. But I lived out. On Tagannick, in a tiny little cabin on the lake.

• 15:20Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 15:20Rich Roll?

  Close to the pines. You know the pines?

• 15:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:23Rich Roll?

  So it was the pines and Ruloff, you know, it was like, basically, I lived in Ruloff's. That's the truth.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Of course, of course, yeah.

• 15:30Rich Roll?

  So I don't know if you ever went in there.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  I've been to Ruloff's a bunch.

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  We rubbed shoulders, but I was out of my mind. Like, I still don't know how I graduated from basketball. In any event.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  I wasn't a huge drinker, but we'd go to Ruloff's a lot.

• 15:41Rich Roll?

  And you're like, who's that idiot over the corner? Probably, there was a conversation that was it.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  I did pass out once on a bus, and maybe we were on the same bus.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, maybe. Oh, my God.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Woke up on the side of a road by my dorm. I mean, it was the only time that I ever had that kind of experience where I drank too much in college and it was not good. Kids do not do this at home, but it was scary when I woke up the next morning and I didn't remember a thing.

• 16:08Rich Roll?

  Well, I have more than my fair share of those kinds of stories, but it took me a little while to figure it out. But I think, you know, just sort of speaking to your experience as a lacrosse player, I thought a kind of cool, like, sort of launchpad into the subject matter that I'd like to cover with you today can sort of be encapsulated in that hard hat story that you tell. I love that story. Can you just recount that?

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, having played at Cornell Lacrosse and graduating in 93, there was a guy who played 11 years after I did, and his name was George Bariardi. Cornell Lacrosse was not a powerhouse when I was there towards the end. Before I got there, a powerhouse. Then we sort of had some down years that I was there, and they became a powerhouse again after George played at Cornell. George was selected to carry the hard hat as a freshman. The new coaches who took over the program, Dave Petramala, Jeff Tambroni, they gave a hard hat to the hardest-working, most selfless, loyal freshman on the team. George was selected to carry that hard hat because he embodied those characteristics.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  So as a freshman, he carried it. Now, as a senior, he's a captain of the team. And George was just an incredible human being, very selfless, served his team. He was always the last guy to leave the locker room because he would always clean up. After everyone left, he would clean up and then he would give freshmen ride home back to their dorms, back to North Campus.

• 17:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Because it was a far walk and very cold, as you remember, in Ithaca. And these young kids would need a drive home, so he would drive them home and encourage them. And so he was this kind of guy that was always there for his team, always there to help them. And when he graduated, his plan was to go to teach for America in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, the Pine Ridge Reservation, and help the poorest of the poor. To help people who had nothing. This was a kid who came from a very privileged background. His great grandfather was Chef Boyardee. So George Boyardee, Chef Boyardee. So, but he drove a beat up Jeep, wore a hoodie every day, the same clothes. You would have never known that he was a kid from a privileged background because he never wanted any of the trappings.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  He was not that kind of person. He was a very blue collar kind of kid. And so here was a kid who was going to sacrifice and after college go help that. Well, senior year, early in the season, they're playing Biggerton, and George jumps in front of a shot and he gets hit in the chest with the ball and he dies on the field.

• 18:37Rich Roll?

  It's unbelievable. I didn't know that that happened. And is that a, I mean, that can't happen that often, is that?

• 18:44Speaker 01

  That doesn't happen that often. And 22 years old, hit in the chest, dies on the field. The trainer that went out to save him was my trainer, Jim Case. And he just said it was obviously the most painful, challenging moment of his life. His parents weren't at the game. They'd been to every game and for some reason they weren't at that game. So as a team, after George's death, they were obviously young men devastated, traumatic experience. They were deciding whether they should play the season or not. And they got together and they decided, you know what? We're going to play. We're not going to give up on the season. We're going to play. But we're not going to play to win for George. We're going to play to honor him.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  We're going to play to play the way he would play and to honor his memory. And from that moment on, they became like this unbelievable team that just played with such selflessness, with sacrifice and service for, of each other, with love for each other.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Hardworking, going after the ground balls, do whatever it take to to help your team win. It wasn't about yourself because George was never about himself. It was always about others. They actually had a something called Boyerity Stats, which were just like ground balls, hustle points. It wasn't about scoring or assists. It was about all these intangible things that were Boyerity Stats. They called, show call field, Boyer, George's house, became George's house.

• 20:10Rich Roll?

  Wow, they still call it that to this day?

• 20:11Speaker 01

  They do, to this day, and they kept his locker the same. It's still there. Like, all his stuff is still in his locker. So his locker, you you walk in that locker room and you see George's locker there to this day. They became this powerhouse program after that.

• 20:29Rich Roll?

  So you have this guy who sort of exudes the ideals of the optimal teammate, right? He's got sportsmanship, he's got the work ethic, he has that, you know, sort of spirit that transcends his own personality. And and when you see that, in recounting that story and seeing the result of his legacy and the long-term impact on the team and its success and and the sort of unity that that inspired, like, what are the like pillars or wisdom that you extract from that?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Well, one thing that's really important to notice is that these men who are his teammates, and they were young men then, these men now are around 32, 33, 34 years old. They still live their lives based on him. They live their lives based on the kind of teammate and the kind of person he was, and they're asking themselves every day, would George be proud of me? Would George be doing this and that? They literally are living their lives and they ask themselves all the time that question. I was blown away interviewing these guys. It just shows the impact that this 22-year-old had, even when he was 19, he had this impact on these men. So what can we extrapolate? Well, one, It's never about yourself. It's always about others because George always wanted to

• 21:44Speaker 01

  play for his team and make his team better. He never wanted recognition. So for one, I think it's about to be a great teammate. We're so focused on ourselves in today's culture that truly being a great teammate is not about me. It's not pointing to yourself after your score. It's not being the superstar on ESPN. It's about helping others and being someone who is there for your team and helping your team get better. So I think one, that's a big part of being a great teammate.

• 22:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think also, you know, ensuring that that legacy remains relevant, I think takes work and a forethought on behalf of the coaching staff and, you know, the players themselves. I mean, you know, as you were counting that, I'm sort of thinking back. When I swam Stanford in the late 80s, we had our version of that. It was the red sweatpants. And it was started by this guy, Jim Reynolds. We called him Moken Jimmy. And he just was everything that you wanted your teammate to be. You know what I mean? He wasn't the fastest. He wasn't the most talented, but he was all about team and he was there for every member of the team. And he was sort of a symbol of unity and teammanship and

• 22:50Rich Roll?

  all this sort of thing. And this guy, like, every single day, he would wear the same red sweatpants, every day. And so when he graduated, a tradition started where those were passed on each year to the person who sort of embodied those ideals. And I think like the third or fourth year, I was lucky enough to wear those sweatpants, probably the greatest honor in my sporting career because I was like a bench warmer at Stanford. And then it lived on for many years, but at some point, it kind of fell away, right? Like, there was a change in the coaching regime, etc. I don't know exactly what happened because I wasn't there. But also, you know, the program went from being NCAA Division

• 23:33Rich Roll?

  One champions every year to now fighting for third, or fourth, or fifth, or sixth.

• 23:39Rich Roll?

  And our coach at the time was a very flawed individual and I have a lot of issues with his coaching style, but one thing that he did that I think was really laudable was that he understood that our success was directly related to the extent to which the team was unified and that that unification process began from the top down, not just with his example as a coach, but with the leaders on the team and that they had to shoulder that responsibility, that it couldn't just be all on the coach. And with that would come a cohesion that would transfer into the, you know, the team operating as a unit. Which is a little bit different in swimming because it's sort of an individual sport, but it's also a team sport. You do have to work together, but it's about individual

• 24:23Rich Roll?

  performances, but I think the principle remains the same.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, instead of focusing on me, we focus on we. And even with individual sports, I work with a lot of golf teams, very individually focused, some swim teams. There has to be this mindset of, yes, I want to be my best for me, but I also want to help my team be their best. And when someone else is swimming, my attitude's contagious. My energy is contagious. So if I'm encouraging my teammate, if I'm challenging my teammate, if I'm pushing my teammate, if I'm doing everything I can to help that person get better, you know what happens in the process? I get better.

• 24:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:58Speaker 01

  And so that's the great thing about the way this works is the more you actually give to your teammates and help them become the best they can be, you actually grow and improve as well. You heard of Schwednader, right? The Schwednader story?

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  No, I don't know that one.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  Schwednader was recruited by John Wooden to play at UCLA. He was 6'10", played at Cypress Community College. And John said, hey, I want you to come here to play at UCLA, but if you come here, you're not going to play that much because we have the best center in the world in Bill Walton.

• 25:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I do know this story, but keep going.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, but we want you to make Bill Walton better. So will you do that? So Schwednader goes to UCLA and every day in practice, he's pushing Bill Walton to get better. He doesn't play much, but he's battling Bill Walton in practice. That's his job. He's the only person in NBA history never to have started a college game, but be drafted in the first round of the NBA. 12-year NBA career Rookie of the Year.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because he's sharpening his tool every single day against the best in the business.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  And he's making Bill Walton better, but he gets better in the process.

• 25:54Rich Roll?

  Right. You gotta have a long-term view, though.

• 25:56Speaker 01

  You do.

• 25:57Rich Roll?

  And that's tough for an athlete, you know? That's got, that takes a lot of self-discipline.

• 26:02Speaker 01

  It does, and I think it takes a sacrifice of your ego to say,

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  I'm gonna give up my ego. See, I believe everyone should wanna be great. We all wanna be great. You have to have an ego to wanna be great. But I think ultimately you have to give up your ego, serve others in order to be great.

• 26:19Rich Roll?

  Right. You can, you can, you can even do that selfishly.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  I'm going to selfishly relinquish my ego because it's in my best interest.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:27Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 26:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:28Rich Roll?

  It's like, takes a little mental hijinks, I think, but uh, yeah, I like that. All right, so you work with all these, I mean, the number of teams and athletes that you've worked with is insane. Like, all these incredible collegiate and professional programs, NFL, NBA, and, you know, you're wearing a Dodgers t-shirt, I know you work with the Dodgers. So when you go, like, when you go into these teams, I assume they invite you in, and then you go in, like, what's the deal? Like, what are you telling them? Are you sitting them down? And, like, how does it work?

• 27:00Speaker 01

  So usually the coach will read one of my books, and that's why they reach out. Like, Dave Roberts with the Dodgers, I never met Dave, but he read my book, You Win in the Locker Room First, that I wrote with Mike Smith. And it's the seven Cs to build a winning team. So when Mike and I wrote this book, I had no idea that, like, a lot of coaches were gonna read it and want to then do more with it. But Dave read it and reached out, called one of my team members, and they started talking. And he's like, hey, we wanna have him at spring training. Uh, he could stay with me. And so I go out there, I stayed with Dave, stayed at Dave's place, spring training. I go and speak to the team. But beforehand, I met with Dave in his office, and we just talk. We talk leadership, we talk challenges, we talk some of the Cs, and we just talk principles.

• 27:45Speaker 01

  Couple of coaches will come in, I'll meet the coaches, we'll talk, and then I go speak to the team. And Dave and I already talked about, okay, let's talk about the seven Cs. Let's talk about how to build a connected team. You just talked about cohesion earlier. How can we be more connected? How could they be more cohesive to stay strong as a team throughout the season? And that was my talk. The seven Cs to build a winning team to the team. But each team is different. Might be energy bus, or it might be training camp, or the power of positive leadership recently. Coaches have wanted me to speak on that. So it's usually some set of principles, and I'll pick three to five that I'll talk about with the team. But it's things that I want to stick. You know, it's not just a motivational talk, rah rah.

• 28:25Rich Roll?

  Do you do like a forensic analysis of what's functioning well and what's not functioning well in the team? Like a consultant would do at a business and say, here's what's not working and here's where I can like laser in and and perhaps provide some value.

• 28:37Speaker 01

  A lot of times I'm speaking at spring training or training camp and training camp. Uh, speaking at spring training or training camp. So it's always at the beginning usually. And usually it's a new season, a new team, different dynamic. Now, the coach will talk about what's happened in the past or what they're struggling with or what messages we want to get across. So I don't really do a lot of forensic analysis like that, but it's more like, okay, what are your struggles? What are your challenges? And what are the same, what are some of the core messages that we need to talk about?

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Like with the Dodgers, it was like, okay, in years past, you would get to this level, you'd get to the playoffs, but you wouldn't push through to the next round. Why? They had the talent, but team beats talent when talent isn't a team.

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  Right. And you, you, you would have, I would imagine you have a receptive audience in the coach that invites you. Like this guy wants you, you know, he, he, he wants to hear what you have to say. I would imagine that's not always the case with the players. Like the coach comes in, introduces you and they're like, probably sometimes they're stoked and other times they're like, who's this guy? Like, why do I have to listen to him? And, and I think it's, uh, I would imagine that it's a time to tough audience because you know, you mentioned ego earlier. It's like, these, these guys are the best there is, right? They got big egos, vulnerability or being open or talking about your weaknesses, especially in front of the coaching staff and your teammates. When a lot of these guys are just, you know, they just want to make sure they're not getting cut, right?

• 30:08Rich Roll?

  Like what are they going to be doing next week and next month? That's a challenge.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  It's one of the biggest challenges there is in the world of speaking. Rob Bell and I were talking about that because he's spoken to some, you know, sports teams as well at the NFL level. Hardest audience you'll ever find. Now, you have this coach that invites you. You just nailed it on the head, but there are some guys there that are like, okay, another talk. Who's here talking today? What is he talking about? But my job is to provide value. My job is to say something that can help them be better, that can, that can make them better. They may not like three or four things, but maybe they'll just like one thing that I say. And that's my goal is that if I could just say one thing that gets their attention that will help them get to the next level. Coaches always tell me, John, if you can't provide value to these guys, they're going to tune you out. And that goes for coaching.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  A lot of coaches better know their stuff. Because as a coach, if you can't help the player improve, then they're not going to listen to you. Then don't waste their time because they're the best and they want to get better. So my thing is what can I do to help them get better? I spoke to the Oklahoma City Thunder this year and the Miami Heat, right? NBA, only 10 to 12 guys in a room. That was even harder than an NFL team where there's 50 to 70.

• 31:20Rich Roll?

  You could read everyone's facial expression.

• 31:21Speaker 01

  I'm sitting there, I'm looking and they're right there. I mean, they're right there. And Pat Riley sat in on my talk as well, which was really intimidating to the Heat.

• 31:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I would imagine.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  So they're right there and you're looking at them. So my thing is what I, what I did for spring training this year was three keys to have in a great season. Like, these are the three keys that I have found over the years will help you have a great season if you do these three things.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  Which are what?

• 31:46Speaker 01

  One was, we stay positive. Because everyone's positive in spring training or training camp. You're undefeated. But how will we stay positive when we face adversity and challenges? How will we stay positive as a team and optimistic, believing that our best days are ahead of us, even though we may have just had some losses, even though we just had some challenges? Very prophetic with the Heat, because they had a horrible first half of the season, but they stayed positive. Next one, stay connected. Got to stay connected as a team. Teams start to break down in the course of the season, you can see who's giving up, who doesn't really care about their teammates, who's basically already thinking about next season, their contract, and not really bought into the team. They're not engaged. They're not

• 32:29Speaker 01

  all in. So staying connected is key. And then the third one is, stay the course. Grit.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  We don't create outside in, we create inside out. The power of inside out versus outside in. Don't look at the outside, don't look at media, don't look at the noise. Just focus on what you can do each day to be your best and knowing that you create inside out. You're the ultimate inside out, right, athlete?

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  Not the ultimate.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Well, what you've created on the outside is everything that you've done on the inside.

• 32:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's the key to long-term success. You know, it's, it's much harder work. And, you know, sometimes you gotta be in enough pain to go that route. Cause it's much more convenient to go from the outside in.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:11Rich Roll?

  And that, and that kind of brings me to the next, you know, sort of line of questioning, which is, you're a very positive guy. I know you've, you know, you've evolved into that. You haven't always been that person. But when you're talking about positivity, talking about grit, talking about leadership, like, these are characteristics that in certain people are just baked in, right? And you can get up in front of a group of people and try to inspire them or incite them. But ultimately, you know, how do you traverse that bridge from inspiration or incitement into actual action? And even beyond that into, you know, lasting, persistent, consistent action? That really is going to be the difference maker in terms of how a season's gonna go.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think there are those players that tune you out and could care less that you're there. But then there are those that come up to you afterwards and say, I needed to hear that. Thank you. And then there are some that say, hey, can I keep in touch with you? And they give you their, their cell number and I give them mine and we stay in touch. And there have been a few and it's really cool when.

• 34:18Rich Roll?

  When they call you, you're laying in bed one night and.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  You get a text, you get a text, you get a text. And can't say who they are, but I've reached out to them, I've talked to them and encouraged them. And.

• 34:30Speaker 01

  You take inspiration and you move into principle. You move into embodiment. You move into living it and breathing it and you start to see the impact it has. One of the most important things that you can do, and it's, it's, it's, it's, it may sound simple, but it's not, it's not complicated. If an athlete can stay positive and deal with their adversity and deal with their pain and their negativity and really work through that, but stay positive and optimistic and not get caught up in the rut and all the stuff that's coming their way, that's 90% of the challenge they face. So that's a big part of what I help them do in talking to them and encouraging them along the way. It's that simple.

• 35:19Rich Roll?

  I think that these ideas, which are really kind of mindsets, are actually, they're actions, they're practices, you know, whether it's gratitude, positivity. You know, there's a saying in, in recovery, like act as if, you know, or like fake it till you make it. Like if you're, if you're somebody who's not easily, you know, sort of prone to being in an optimistic, positive mindset, if you start sort of acting that way, even though maybe that's not how you feel, is it your opinion that you can then sort of foster that in yourself? Or what is the, how do you traverse from being, you know, sort of a gloomy person into somebody who's more positive and optimistic?

• 35:59Speaker 01

  Well, they've done studies where actually people who may be more naturally negative and they try to put on a fake smile, those people trying to put on a fake smile actually are producing stress hormones.

• 36:10Rich Roll?

  Make it worse.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  It actually makes it worse. I believe it always comes from the heart. It has to come from the heart. You can't do it because the book says so.

• 36:18Rich Roll?

  Well, you gotta care, right? And that's a cornerstone thing and that kind of infuses all of your books and your teachings. But like, how do you get some, like first you gotta care and then everything kind of flows from there. Is that an accurate kind of thing? Or like, how do you get somebody to care? Like if that guy's stonewalling you.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  You know, there's only so much you can do, right?

• 36:37Speaker 01

  That person's not going to change. That person's not going to improve their life. But.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  I don't know if it's fake it till you make it. I know that as we strive to be a more positive person and we truly start to to to live it and act upon it, we start to see that fruit in our lives. For me, it was taking walks of gratitude every day. So taking a thank you walk. So while you're walking, you just say what you're thankful for, because you can't be stressed and thankful at the same time. I was celebrating my successes every night. So instead of a gratitude journal, I had a success journal. What was the one great thing that happened that day? So focusing on these little positive things from from action. But going back, we know that energy creates matter. Energy always creates matter. It always must be an energetic thing before it's a physical

• 37:25Speaker 01

  thing. So that guides a lot of my thinking. So I always believe that it must come from spirit or consciousness before it's manifested in the physical reality.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  That's the inside out thing.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  It's the inside out. It's also again, spirit creates the physical reality. So a lot of times it's a shift in perspective. We're shifting people's perspective from what they believe is possible to now what they know is possible, or from negative to positive. Again, we're putting words to feelings that it's hard to really sometimes quantify and put words to, but it's really this this perspective of my best days aren't behind me, they're ahead of me. It's a perspective of moving from faith instead of fear, a perspective that says, oh, that's not a challenge, that's an opportunity. By what you do, you've said, you know what, they say it's impossible. No, I believe it's possible. And somehow I'm going to do it. And so we're always defining the possible. Steve Jobs did in the in the in the, you know, business world of what

• 38:18Speaker 01

  was possible, that other people said was impossible. So for me, it's about shifting their perspective, which is a mindset, but it's also a heart thing. And then it's also if you can get someone to focus on love instead of fear, they'll perform at a higher level. If they start loving the work they do, loving playing, loving their teammates, they're going to perform at a higher level. So instead of fear, we we bring forth love.

• 38:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. And I think kind of behind that, you know, behind the curtain of that, beneath another layer of that is, you know, is honesty, right? Like, there has to be a level of self honesty. There has to be. Be a willingness to wrestle with yourself and be objective with who you are when you're looking in the mirror in the middle of the night. And that requires a certain amount of courage also. I think it goes back to the thing I mentioned earlier, where you have like these alpha male athletes, best in the business, like that vulnerability is tough to get to, right?

• 39:18Rich Roll?

  Like, I believe that that vulnerability is sort of embracing that vulnerability and getting comfortable with it is the path to ultimate success. I think that's a launchpad, but it's got to be tough to get those guys to that place, right?

• 39:35Speaker 01

  It is. I have noticed that you were asking earlier about the teams and their receptivity. The teams that have read my books first before I get there are the most receptive.

• 39:44Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Because they've experienced something I've written, something that touches their heart, hopefully. Martin in training camp, very vulnerable. Energy bus, George and Joy is the mother that they really seem to connect with. She's got this big energy and great personality, but she's sharing this love and she's taken George on a ride to help him change his life. So I think the more they've read the stories, I get this great connection with them when they've read the books.

• 40:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and they are stories. They're stories. I mean, you've done something very unique in publishing in that most of your books are these allegories, which is not something a lot of people are doing. There are modern day fables where you're really taking the reader on this hero's journey where they can emotionally connect with the protagonist and really understand the struggle and the payoff at the end. You've written like 17 books. You're like, you're five years younger than me, man. It's like, how did you do that? It's crazy. Like, the prolific output is unbelievable. Like, you're just channeling some kind of ethereal source matter right to the page.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  That's really it. I mean, it's like, every book I write takes about three and a half weeks to write.

• 40:59Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 41:00Speaker 01

  And I, that's, ask my wife.

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  Do you just go into the hole?

• 41:05Speaker 01

  She calls it my mad scientist stage. So it's always around December, early to mid December, and I start writing. I have the vision of what I'm going to write. It's got the framework, but that's it.

• 41:16Rich Roll?

  And the vision comes from where?

• 41:20Speaker 01

  Spiritual, just comes like I just have a vision of what I'm supposed to write for me.

• 41:24Rich Roll?

  During the gratitude walks?

• 41:25Speaker 01

  For me, I say, yeah, the walks and a lot of times on the walks, walking on the beach, walking on the street and literally I'll get an idea almost always on, you know, on those walks. But like one book I haven't written yet, I had that vision nine years ago, haven't written it yet, but I have this vision for this book. It's gonna be like just crazy, but I've had a vision for it and I'm just waiting to write it. So I've had a vision before I write it. So then I sit down and I have to start and that's always the hardest part is just to sit down and actually start writing the book. Probably when you have to go out and train, or maybe the first mile is always the hardest. So it's getting started and then after I get started, then it just starts to flow.

• 42:07Speaker 01

  And once the character starts speaking and have a voice, then it starts to write itself.

• 42:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  When I wrote The Carpenter, I had the beginning, which came to me on a walk, but I didn't have the end. And I didn't know what the end was gonna be. And I even called my publisher, said, I don't have an ending. And I, we went through a couple, I'm like, oh, maybe that will work, maybe it won't. Walk on the beach one day, boom, it came to me. To see how the beginning and the end connected and both came to me on these walks, I knew it wasn't for me.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you gotta open the channel, right? You're the conduit for this and, and, and, you know, that's a, I would imagine a meditative practice for you, right?

• 42:43Speaker 01

  I would say, writing is probably the most spiritual experience that I'm having when I'm writing a book. It's the most painful at times, but just sitting down and writing and, and really being open to what's coming through, yeah, it's, it's really powerful. And I always say, I'm not the author, I'm just the pen. And I'm just here writing what I'm meant to write. And I don't wanna take credit, I mean, I give a lot of charity, a lot of, a lot of the royalties to charity, because I feel like I need, I should and I need to, because I can't take it all. I need to give it away because it's a gift.

• 43:15Rich Roll?

  But you didn't graduate from Cornell and just start writing books, right? So let's take, let's step it back because the, the origin story is, is fascinating. And I think it dovetails nicely into, in a kind of this, you know, spiritual odyssey that you've been on. So you graduated from Cornell, you're this lacrosse player. And were you in the hotel management school?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  No, I was actually government, government economics, human ecology.

• 43:37Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. But you went into the restaurant business.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  At 24.

• 43:41Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 43:41Speaker 01

  So I went to Atlanta, just drove down there with a friend from high school, just randomly just went down there. I think to meet my wife because I met my wife there, but was walking around Buckhead and met a guy outside who was the owner of a new bar that just opened in Buckhead. And I asked him if I can have a bartending job. I was just bold enough to ask. He said, have you bartended before? I said, yes, I have. I never bartended. So they gave me a shot, started bartending there while I was getting my masters in teaching at Emory. So I'm bartending, stayed up till six at night, going to school the next day to, you know, go to teach and get my masters in teaching. So I was doing all, doing all those kinds of things.

• 44:22Speaker 01

  First job I ever had though, when I moved to Atlanta was to work for a school for emotionally disturbed children. So I had that job. So looking back, that was sort of a strange journey of education, teaching, bartending. Then I wound up opening up my own place at 24. Met my wife three weeks after we opened up the place. She was walking down the street, saw her and fell in love.

• 44:43Rich Roll?

  It was a bar or a restaurant, bar?

• 44:45Speaker 01

  It was a bar restaurant. It was like a Willoughs. It was a beautiful wood bar and it was a fine restaurant. But then we got rid of the restaurant stuff because we knew we weren't good restaurant people. And we put in pizza ovens and we made great pizza.

• 44:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. What was it called?

• 45:00Speaker 01

  Park Bench.

• 45:00Rich Roll?

  Park Bench? Alright.

• 45:01Speaker 01

  Park Bench.

• 45:02Rich Roll?

  So you're in the, you're in the bar restaurant business.

• 45:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:05Rich Roll?

  And it's, it's working, right?

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I'm 24 and I'm making a good amount of money. I had some partners, but we're doing great. I'm like, wow, this is great. But I knew I didn't want to be in the bar restaurant business. For me, it wasn't about the bar restaurant. I, I had bigger things I wanted to do. Started a nonprofit organization called the Phoenix Organization. And we raised money for youth focused charities. So I would meet all these people at the bar. I'm 24, 25, 26 at the time. And I'm getting all these young people involved to start volunteering and we would raise money for different charities. Never took a dime, gave everything to charity. It was. Became very well known very quickly, like all the charity work we're doing, the volunteer projects. So I'd meet someone who was drunk on a Friday, "Hey, you wanna volunteer on Sunday?" You know, it, "Oh yeah, okay."

• 45:48Rich Roll?

  Sometimes they show up, sometimes they don't.

• 45:49Speaker 01

  Exactly, right. But we did that and that got me involved in the city. And then I would meet different politicians who wanted to speak to the Phoenix organizations at one of our meetings. So then I got involved in politics and I ran for city council of Atlanta. Walked door to door to 7,000 houses, lost. That was hard because I was a government economics major. Thought I was gonna go into politics is what I, that I really wanted to do.

• 46:15Rich Roll?

  You still can.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  Maybe one day.

• 46:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  We need to hopefully change things with positive leadership.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  And maybe one day I will, you know, it's always, it's always in the back of my mind, but you don't know if you wanna put your family through that and even if you wanna go through that, or is it even what I'm meant to do?

• 46:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  But if I was meant to do it, if I felt the call, I'd go do it.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  But during this period of time, you're doing well, you're making money.

• 46:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:43Rich Roll?

  You got, you're, you know, you've got this profile as a young person in, in Atlanta. I mean, is there a nagging sense that, you know, despite the success, that this really isn't, you know, the shoe that is custom built to fit your foot?

• 46:56Speaker 01

  At that point, no, at that point, I'm moving and shaking, I'm doing the Phoenix, I'm having this bar, I'm like, things are great. My wife and I have two children, two small children. I went to go work for a dot com because I wanted to make my, my gazillions. Thought I was gonna make a fortune, director of business development. I actually found some of the investors who invested in the dot com. So I thought this was gonna be my path. And it was at that point, I started to feel like there was something more when I did that. Cause now I'm 28, 29. I'm now working for a dot com, I have bosses, I'm not doing my own thing anymore. I'm not running a restaurant, I'm not doing the Phoenix as much. Cause we had kids, so someone else took over the Phoenix.

• 47:41Speaker 01

  So at that point, I started to feel a little lost and like I needed to do my own thing. We decided to move to Jacksonville. So now we moved to Jacksonville.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Sold my restaurants back to my partners, my shares. They were stealing from me. So that's one of the things that that happened. So I basically took a chunk of money from them, not a lot. I should have got a lot more. And that's a lesson for people. Like, I should have got a lot more. Could have sued, could have went the legal route. I took what they gave me, a fourth of what I should have gotten and just left. It was a hundred thousand dollars. Just took that and we moved to Jacksonville. We sold our house, we bought a house. I have this hundred thousand dollars. I'm now working for the dot com because my boss said I can go live out of Jacksonville. I needed to and just fly wherever from there. And that's when my life started to fall apart. Because now we're in Jacksonville. Dot com's not going great.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Now I'm worried about the future, two small children. What am I gonna do? My wife and I are fighting all the time. I'm miserable, I'm negative, I'm unhappy. I'm making her miserable. That's when everything fell apart. That's what, no, not a lot of positivity at all, no. That's, yeah, that's the guy that I'm not proud of. I wasn't abusive or or anything like that. I was just a miserable, negative, fearful, unhappy person.

• 49:05Rich Roll?

  And I think unfortunately, that's the condition that, you know, a lot of people find themselves in. If not most people, you know, just trying to make a living, trying to do what's right, put food on the table, not totally satisfied in their career, but not really sure there's any other options or if anything else out there would even fill that void. And so you just live your life and you go about your day and nothing changes. And you develop thick skin and just sort of tolerate it. And you kind of bottle up that resentment or dissatisfaction. And occasionally it comes out sideways and, you know, you get, you end up in relationship. I mean, you know what I mean?

• 49:44Speaker 01

  Right, but why do some make the change like you did and I did? And why do some don't? That's what I I wonder.

• 49:50Rich Roll?

  I think it's pain, you know, I told your V this.

• 49:53Speaker 01

  I heard that, I heard you say that.

• 49:55Rich Roll?

  Pain, pains, you know, when the pain is is enough, then you take the action. You don't have to be in pain to make that change, but it makes it a lot easier when you feel like your back is all the way up against the wall.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  But some take the pain, they escape.

• 50:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I tried that too.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:10Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? And I played that out until that didn't work anymore and just created more pain.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:14Rich Roll?

  You know, I was looking for all kinds of different ways of dealing with it in unproductive ways. And, you know, the last thing I wanted to do was to do it the hard way. But, you know, I exploited every other option until that was the only one that was left. So how did that work for you?

• 50:30Speaker 01

  For me, it was pain.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  And I remember my wife threatened to leave me. She said, "I love you, but I'm not gonna spend my life with someone who makes me so miserable. You better change or we're over. I may leave right now." I'm like, "No, no, no, don't, don't leave, no." I got on my hands and knees.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  And at the time, were you aware that your, your marriage was teetering on that level? Or was that, or were you, because a lot of guys are just like, "We're checked out, man." We're like, "I thought it was all, I thought it was all right."

• 51:01Speaker 01

  What do you mean, "You're leaving? This is awesome."

• 51:03Rich Roll?

  It's usually, you know, the, the female partner who's like, "Hey, man, this ain't going so good."

• 51:08Speaker 01

  I knew it was bad. We were fighting a lot and it was just, it was not good. So I wasn't surprised, but the reality of her words hit me like a ton of bricks. And that was a huge moment where I was like, "No, I do not want her to leave. I don't want to lose her. I'll do whatever it takes," I said, "and I'll change." So that pain, that fight, was one of the worst moments in my life. But it also led to the best of what I get to do now. Because I remember saying, "What am I born to do? Why am I here? I know I'm here for a reason. Like, why am I so miserable?" And I asked that question.

• 51:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, two observations on that. I mean, the first is, we're so quick to judge things that happen to us as bad or good. And, you know, I, I look at so many things that I, so many times where I thought, "This is the biggest disaster ever." And, and they become, you know, the foundation for the greatest thing that ever happened to you. So, you know, I always say, embrace those moments and understand that those are your, those are your divine opportunities, if you're paying attention. If you're awake enough to recognize them and have that sort of mental acuity and awareness to understand that This is an opportunity. And the second thing is, is the action that was taken, right? Because a lot of people could have undergone that and sunk lower,

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  or, you know, said F you, or, you know, any number of different things. So when you said, okay, I'll do whatever it takes, like, what did that mean? Like, what did that look like? What were the actions that you took?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Well, one, what you said, I just love what you said, because Gallup asked people to identify the worst event in their life and the best. And they found an 80% correlation between the two.

• 52:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  That somehow the worst event will lead to the best if you're willing to change, if you're willing to move forward.

• 52:59Rich Roll?

  Well, I also think culturally, we're, we're kind of set up to perceive, to like, avoid pain, avoid failure. If something like that happens to you, you failed. You're, you know, not a good person, or whatever. And that's just wrong, you know? Life is life, stuff happens. And the more we can like, reserve that kind of judgment over these things and feel like, oh, I'm not playing the game right because I'm having relationship issues or financial issues, I think leads people astray rather than forward.

• 53:30Speaker 01

  You nailed it. I believe that, and you see it, that every dysfunction you can see in society and people's personal dysfunction can be traced back to the fact that they want to escape and they don't want to deal with pain. They want to avoid pain, whether it's drug addiction, drinking, whether it's pornography, whether it's video game addiction, whatever it may be, it's because we don't want to feel.

• 53:53Rich Roll?

  And we're encouraged to escape. Go to the movies, go to, you know, it's like, everywhere you look, we're bombarded with messaging that wants us to escape. That says, a good life is a life of escape, a life of luxury, a life of, you know, luxuriating and like, avoiding difficult situations and pain and challenge. And, you know, you and I, we, you know, every guest I've ever had on this podcast will tell you that the path to leading a really fulfilling life is one of, you know, welcoming those hardships. I just had, I just had a guest on the show the other day. This woman Samantha Gash, unbelievable ultra runner, former lawyer, she just ran across India. She's done all these incredible things in her life.

• 54:38Rich Roll?

  And she told me something interesting I'd never heard, which is, I think she said, Jason, you were there, the root, the root of the word passion, which comes from, did she say the ancient Greek? Yeah, the Latin root is to suffer. Right? And the inextricable link between these two things, like if you want to live passionately, then you have to welcome the suffering, that these two things, it's kind of like what you just said, that the worst thing and the best thing are so closely aligned.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  It's duality. Everything is duality. So there's no suffering without love. We suffer because we love. So you have to have one with the other. You get them both. So we want to avoid pain. I always say, don't avoid the pain, stay in the game. Embrace the pain. My son is a classic example of that. Like, he doesn't want to feel that pain. So he does escape various ways with, you know, video games, or whether it's social media, whether it's, he loves comics, anime. And so I'll see him reading these anime just to escape life. And it's like, no, no, feel it. So our big thing is, we talk about it, feel it.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  It's okay to feel it. Human beings are meant to feel. You go see a doctor, you get surgery, you get an injury, and what do they do right away? They prescribe you pain pills. And they say, stay ahead of the pain. What's wrong with feeling pain? We're meant to feel it. It's meant, we're meant to be human. Don't run from it. Embrace it. Keep moving forward.

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think emotional pain, you know, acute emotional pain can give you the sense that it's going to kill you. Like, it can be so powerful that you actually think you're going to die. You know, and you will do anything to get out of it. Drugs, alcohol, you know, sex, porn, whatever. But it's only by staying in it that you realize, like, there's one thing that will happen for sure, and that that feeling will change. It will morph. And, and you will still be breathing when that happens. And with that comes experience that gives you the confidence and the wherewithal to then navigate the next difficult situation

• 56:50Rich Roll?

  that comes along. It's just, it's like being in the gym. It's like doing pushups, but for your emotional body.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the ebb and flow of life. My wife wanted me to go on antidepressants because I was depressed. And I said, no, I'm not doing that. Like, I can do this naturally. Now, I'm not gonna say everyone should do what I did, but for me, I said, no, I could do this naturally. I don't need to take antidepressants. So I started these walks of gratitude. I started to pray, walks on the beach.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  Did that begin when you were still working for the faltering.com?

• 57:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 57:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you're down in Jacksonville, you're kind of having an existential crisis in your young man's life about what you're doing. You're fighting with your wife. You're committed to, you know, becoming a better dude. You're trying to figure out what you're gonna do professionally. How does it all kind of come to a head?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  So I'm walking, I'm praying, I'm doing all these different things. And I said, okay, how can I make a living?

• 57:48Speaker 01

  And what am I meant to do? So writing and speaking came to me.

• 57:52Rich Roll?

  How did that, how did that come to you?

• 57:53Speaker 01

  I said, God, why am I here? What am I meant to do?

• 57:57Rich Roll?

  And this is going on in the context of kind of this spiritual exploration that you were having at the time?

• 58:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, not religious at all.

• 58:02Rich Roll?

  Right. Grew up, grew up, nice Jewish kid.

• 58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, just spiritual, you know, seeker.

• 58:06Rich Roll?

  Grew up at like Long Island?

• 58:08Speaker 01

  Long Island.

• 58:08Rich Roll?

  You got the Long Island accent?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Strong Island.

• 58:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, Long Island.

• 58:11Rich Roll?

  Do you know, uh, do you know Jesse Itzler?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  The name sounds so familiar.

• 58:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. He's one of the, um, co-owners of the Atlanta Hawks.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 58:20Rich Roll?

  Uh, anyway, he's got the same accent as you.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  Oh, that's funny.

• 58:22Rich Roll?

  When you talk, it reminds me of him.

• 58:23Speaker 01

  That's funny. So, yeah, Long Island, Jewish, uh, doing a lot of Buddhism, meditation, reading a lot of books by the Dalai Lama.

• 58:32Rich Roll?

  And this was in part a response to your wife kind of, you know, pulling your covers?

• 58:37Speaker 01

  I was actually.

• 58:37Rich Roll?

  Or was that going on at the same time?

• 58:38Speaker 01

  That was going on in my twenties. My wife was really into that. We were both into that. We connected over that. We would, Deepak Chopra would come to Atlanta. We'd go see Deepak speak. And we were really just into that movement. Carolyn Mace and, you know, and healing and anatomy of healing and just various things like that.

• 58:54Rich Roll?

  So you already had, that was part of your constitution?

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had it. I was, I was seeking. I was a big seeker, you know, so I would consider myself very spiritual. But I never really prayed and said, God, like, help me. Which is what happened.

• 59:08Rich Roll?

  And that's what you were doing and you got an answer.

• 59:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I did. I mean, you know, you don't always get an answer, but I got an answer and.

• 59:15Rich Roll?

  Like a lightning bolt answer?

• 59:16Speaker 01

  No, it wasn't like, you will be a writer and speaker. No, it just came to me through like a, and it still comes to this. I get it all the time. It's more of a knowing. Like I, I hear words, but it's more like it's instantaneous. So it's not like I hear it audibly, but I hear it and it's writing and speaking. Really? What am I going to write and speak about? Didn't know, but that's what came to me. I'm like, all right, that's what I'm going to do. And I loved Ken Blanchard, who taught at Cornell and wrote The One Minute Manager. I was inspired by books like Jonathan Livingston Seagull and by Richard Bach and Illusions, which inspired Og Mandino, The Greatest Salesman, The Road Less Traveled. I read that book. That really impacted me.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  I read that when I was, I read that when I was like probably 20 years old. So I was into these books and into these writers and when writing and speaking came to me, I said, oh yeah. Like it made sense. Like, okay, that's why I'm here. That's what I'm meant to do. But I couldn't just say, all right, honey, I'm going to be a writer and speaker. I don't know how I'm going to provide for the family. You go to work and I'm going to do that. I didn't want her to go to work. I wanted to provide. So I got back in the restaurant business and decided to open a, a Mo's Southwest Grill. Cause I had friends who started the original Mo's. There were only about four in the country at the time, all in Atlanta. We became the fifth Mo's, first one in Florida and we second mortgaged our home, $20,000 in credit cards.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  That money that I got from my partners that I sold the restaurant, put that in there and that was everything we had. I mean, literally we had nothing else. It was everything we had, we put into that restaurant.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  Right. It's a great story too, because you were sort of contemplating this, but then it wasn't until you went out to the movies with your friends. Right. That you, you had another sort of lightning bolt.

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Right. We were thinking, we were thinking about doing it and um, we were talking about it, but nothing was working. The landlord was being difficult, Mo's was being difficult and we went to the movies, which we were supposed to go to a different theater. But our friend said, no, no, we're going to see Planet of the Apes in Tinseltown. And Planet of the Apes, I remember was playing the only parking space available with the one that was right in front of the spot where you're supposed to do the Mo's. And I said to my wife, I'm getting this feeling that we're supposed to do the Mo's. She said, I am too. Boom. Okay, let's do it. I called up the landlord. He was awesome. Called up Moe's. They were awesome the next day. Like it was synchronicity. Like you and I had.

• 1:01:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and the energy was just flowing in the right direction.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it was just like.

• 1:01:45Rich Roll?

  Go with that.

• 1:01:45Speaker 01

  You just go with it. And some things you just, you know, you just can't explain. I mean, even just like, um, you know, you coming over here, like a day before you come over here, my daughter is watching, you know, What the Hell? And after watching that, she says, Mom and Dad, I decide I'm gonna go vegan. Just after watching that. She has no idea that you and I are talking, that you're coming over here to do this, that we do this podcast together, and she watches that movie and inspired her so much that she's like, I'm gonna be a vegan. I mean, what are the odds?

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  That's crazy. She just walked in the kitchen a minute ago. She was being really quiet then, so.

• 1:02:18Speaker 01

  That's kind of even here. That's great.

• 1:02:20Rich Roll?

  Her words behind you. Um, yeah, I love that kind of stuff, right? Like, why is it, like, of all the time, like, why is that happening the day before? You know, and you could pass it off, whatever, coincidence, but I like to, you know, I like to embrace the beautiful mystery of life, and I choose to believe that there's more at play with things like that.

• 1:02:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, it's definitely a mystery.

• 1:02:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you open up this restaurant, and that's, that's given you a little bit of a cushion to now explore the writing.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  Well, not right away.

• 1:02:49Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  Because the goal was to open up the restaurant, keep the job at the dot com,

• 1:02:55Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  and get the restaurant going, make it successful, and then quit.

• 1:02:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  But I lost my job three weeks before the restaurant opened. And so now I have no money coming in, no insurance.

• 1:03:06Rich Roll?

  All your money's in the restaurant.

• 1:03:07Speaker 01

  All that's in the restaurant. We have one month of savings in our bank account. How are we gonna provide for our family when it takes a while for restaurants to make a profit? And what happens if it doesn't? So I violated all business plans. But it was where my faith was born, because my wife and I went out there, we fliered the movie theater right next to us, all the cars. We went to all the businesses in the area promoting catering, just started marketing the heck out of the place to get business. Broke even right away, though. Wasn't losing money, but wasn't making money.

• 1:03:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  It's easy to have faith when everything's going your way.

• 1:03:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like faith is meant to be tested. Like, do you really have faith? All right, I'm gonna pull that dot com job away from you. I'm gonna make sure you only got a month to sit on. And then we'll see if you're really serious about this. Right? Because I think that's, again, that's another thing that we're kind of encouraged to run away from. But that is almost universally, beautifully orchestrated for you to really go in. Like, do you mean that you really want to do this? All right, well, I'm gonna make you work for it. We'll see if you really want this. You know what I mean?

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I love that because so many people reach out to me now and they're full of fear about taking the next step. But I can speak from my own experience. Like, I did it. I lived it. I stepped out of faith. I went through my fear. So I can help that person who is thinking about the next step, or they're worried about that. Or I can tell they don't have faith. They're full of fear. And I'll let them know, you're full of fear. And if you really, truly want to create your future, you have to embrace that, move through it. Take a step of faith, a leap of faith sometimes, to create the life that you want. And if you're not willing to do that, if you're not able to do that, then I don't believe the universe,

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  God, whatever you want to call it, will get behind you to create what you need to create. So I believe God will move heaven and earth when you're on the path and you're willing to take that leap of faith to go do what you're meant to do.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I believe that. I believe that to be true. I mean, I have my version of that story. You know, and it involves pending foreclosure and cars getting repossessed and like not being able to like, you know, pay for our garbage to get, I mean, you know, like really meeting my maker, you know, on a fundamental level to like test me, to say like, all right, are you really committed to like, can you burn in this flame and come out the other side? And I think-

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 1:05:43Rich Roll?

  You know, with that, you know, you said like, all right, well, you know, maybe you're, you know, God will move heaven and earth to get behind you if you have that faith. And I think, you know, one distinction I would make, or maybe we can kind of clarify here, is that- Just because you have faith doesn't mean you're immune from fear. You know what I mean? Like, I was, I had faith, but I was scared too.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  I was trying to take action in, despite that fear.

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:07Rich Roll?

  But I wouldn't say that I wasn't afraid. My wife was less afraid, actually. She was like, no, this is what we're doing. We're in all the way. Like, you just have to have faith. You've got to like, not think, you gotta like, expand your mind outside the paradigm of social expectations and this rulebook that you've lived your life by, and think more broadly. Like, she had a lot more of that kind of strength than I did. And I would be like, okay, I'll give that a go. But like, playing afraid, but still moving forward.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  You know you were the right person when they give you strength, first of all. I think that's important to share. Cause like, my wife, same thing. Like, she didn't yell at me. She wasn't mad, like, how could you lose your job? She said, it's okay, it's gonna be all right. Like, somehow we're gonna get through this. And I remember, a friend who owed me money called up out of the blue, and paid me back the money he owed. That helped carry us for a month. I mean, it was like, these little things that happened. I sold a franchisee on Moe's, potential franchisee. So I got a kickback fee for selling a franchise. That carried us.

• 1:07:07Rich Roll?

  Right, comes right at the right moment, right? When you think you can't go any further. It's like, the analogy that I always use is there's a, there's a really old Popeye cartoon. And in the cartoon, Sweet Pea, remember the little baby?

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  Sweet Pea like escaped and is crawling around and finds herself on a construction site. And she crawls up onto like a girder bean that's, that gets pulled up by a crane, and swings around and like, right when she's about to crawl off the end, it like lines up with another girder and she crawls it. And it's like, that repeats and repeats and repeats until she's finally back on the ground. Like, right when, at that moment where you think it's gonna be a disaster, that, that thing shows up. And it's just, it's just, it might not be what you want, but it's just enough of what you need to keep you going.

• 1:07:50Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 1:07:50Rich Roll?

  And that is the universe showing up. Like I said, in Finding Ultra, like the, you know, when your faith is true, when your aim is true, the universe will conspire to support you. And, and that doesn't mean it's gonna be comfortable, or easy, or show up in the package that you would prefer, but somehow it's gonna work.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I got the call from a friend who said, we wanna learn about wireless technology, the dot com you had worked for. Can you teach us? I said, well, I don't know about the technology. Because I'm not a technology guy, so I'm probably not the right fit. He said, no, teach us how to sell it. I said, okay, I can do that.

• 1:08:23Rich Roll?

  So you say you want to speak, and then here's a speaking opportunity.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  They pay me thirteen thousand dollars for six weeks of consulting. I'll never forget. I mean, it was a miracle. And as that, as that money came in, it carried us until the last dime ran out of our account. And then we made our first profit at our restaurant. Like, it was a clockwork. As that money ran out from the consulting, we made our first profit in the restaurant six months later.

• 1:08:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's amazing.

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  We were just literally hanging by a thread and just finding any way to pay the bills and eating at Mo's, you know?

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Every day.

• 1:08:57Rich Roll?

  But trusting.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  But trusting. But like you said, full of fear, but yet also having faith. Scared, but taking action and just trusting that somehow, some way, it would work out. Now, I did say this. God, please provide for my family, and I'll do your work. And for me, that meant give back, make the world better, you know? Do, do the work of, of giving to others. And I never will forget that. And I always am tested on that. Like, is it about you, John? Or is it about you giving back to others? Is it about the fact that, you know, you're, you're writing these books, but what are you doing to help others? And I'm always pushed and challenged to do that.

• 1:09:39Rich Roll?

  And is that plea coming from fear? Or is it, or is it coming from, you know, a, a more forward-thinking perspective?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Forward-thinking, forward-thinking.

• 1:09:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:49Speaker 01

  Yo, no, that'll feel.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  But what I'm saying is like, when you're being, like, when you're doing that prayer, it's like.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  It was a combination of both.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like, am I doing this just out of my ego? Because I don't want to be a failure? Or, or do I really want to assert? You know what I mean? Like, I think it's, you know, we're human beings. It's like, you can't say, right.

• 1:10:04Speaker 01

  It was like, it was like, I will, like, provide for me and my family, and I will do your work. Which real, which I never said that before, so I don't even know where it came from. But it came to me in that moment of, yes, fear, please provide. But I'll make sure that my life is not about me going forward. Like, I had to die to myself. Because I was in many ways self consumed. And it was always about success, success, success. And it was about feeling successful. You know, my father left when I was one and I think, you know, that abandonment issue. People who have abandonment issues always want to prove those people wrong. So I think there's probably an element to that.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  So for me, it was always about being successful to prove other people wrong. Ultimately, that was a defining moment where it became no longer about me being a success, but about making a difference. And so even when I wrote The Energy Bus and it was rejected by all these publishers and even when I went on a tour when it finally came out and had five people in every city and 10 people in other cities, like not a big crowds. Yes, I wanted to be a person of value. I was going out there, wanted to be someone of value doing this. But what drove me ultimately was to go make a difference. Because just your own success will not carry you that far, I don't think.

• 1:11:26Rich Roll?

  No, I think that there's a, there's a beautiful mystical spiritual equation that occurs when you go from how am I going to get mine or, you know, how can I win in this situation or what am I going to get out of this to how can I contribute? How can I serve? How can I help you get yours? And if you can shift your mindset into that and your actions follow, for some reason, your life gets better and it gets better by a multiple of five to 10 to 20 and then, and then on. And it's not like, I'm not hardwired to be that way, but when I can get into that space, like I have to practice gratitude to be grateful. I'm not a naturally grateful person.

• 1:12:08Rich Roll?

  I'm an irritable, you know, resentful, fear-based, you know, like I have to do a lot of work to like just scratch the surface of those, but when I do, my life is way better.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  You know, it is, we all have this. Physical nature and we have a spiritual nature. And I think it's the battle between those two of the flesh and physical nature of survival, of dominance, of getting what I want. But then we have the spiritual nature, which is about love and compassion and forgiveness and giving and servant, serving others and caring. So I think we have this two natures that are at war with each other.

• 1:12:46Rich Roll?

  But I think we, we sort of approach those from a perspective of how can I get more of that in my life? How can I get more love? How can I get more appreciation? How can I, whatever, as opposed to like, how can, when, the, the truth is in order to, the way to get those is to, is to be giving those, right? To be giving those away, to be practicing that.

• 1:13:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, the more you want it, don't seek it, give it. And then when you give it, it comes back to you tenfold.

• 1:13:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:13:13Speaker 01

  It's the generosity principle.

• 1:13:14Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. All right, so you get this consulting gig and then you sit down, you, you get channeled, you know, the idea for this first book. You sit down, you write this thing in three and a half weeks, right? And then you're getting rejected by all these publishers.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that book happened after actually I sold the restaurants.

• 1:13:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  So it was, I was out speaking in Oregon and I wasn't doing a lot of speaking, but, but it was going okay, two or three a month maybe, and I loved it. But the restaurants were weighing me down. And I was reading a magazine that said, how to value your business when selling. On the way home, a different magazine that said.

• 1:13:52Rich Roll?

  You're thinking about selling at the time.

• 1:13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then, then there's an article in a business magazine, then a completely different business magazine. One was Inc., one was Entrepreneur Success, like it was different magazines. And the other one said, how to, how to value your business when selling. Two different magazines, two different articles, the signs.

• 1:14:09Rich Roll?

  The universe is speaking to you again.

• 1:14:10Speaker 01

  Yes, walked in the house, said to my wife, we're going to sell the restaurants. It's time. This was around 2005 and knew it was time. So sell the restaurants to another franchisee in town who, who bought my stores and had enough money to carry us maybe for a couple of years, year or two, maybe two years. I said, all right, I'm now going to put a hundred percent into writing and speaking. But six months go by and nothing's happened.

• 1:14:37Rich Roll?

  Had you been writing or were you blocked or?

• 1:14:39Speaker 01

  No, I had written another book that I don't really talk about much, but I wrote another book called Energy Addict. Hundred and one ways to energize your life. So it was about physical energy, mental energy, emotional energy, spiritual energy. Got on the Today Show. So I thought my life was going to take off after I got on the Today Show like, all right, that's it.

• 1:14:57Rich Roll?

  You've arrived.

• 1:14:58Speaker 01

  I've arrived. After the Today Show, like, got a little buzz, but then everything just dried up. It was, it was wild. It was like my greatest dream and then everything dries up after.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  And that was 2006 or something?

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  That was around 2005.

• 1:15:12Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  So 2006, we sell the restaurants. Now it transitions to 2006. Six months after selling the restaurants, nothing's happening. Everything's dried up. Not a lot of speaking. And I'm like, okay, now I have about a year and a half of income left. What happens if it doesn't work? What am I going to do? So I'm walking again, now a little fearful and I'm praying and the idea for the energy bus came to me. And that's when I wrote that in about three and a half weeks after that moment.

• 1:15:40Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:40Speaker 01

  I'm like.

• 1:15:41Rich Roll?

  Literally just three and a half weeks.

• 1:15:42Speaker 01

  Three and a half weeks. I'll, I'll never, I, I, I wrote this book. Now I did have an agent from the previous book, Ariel Ford, who works with Deepak and she writes her own books as well. Her sister was Debbie Ford and Ariel pitched it around and it got rejected by all these publishers.

• 1:16:04Rich Roll?

  And you're left with.

• 1:16:06Speaker 01

  More fear.

• 1:16:06Rich Roll?

  Another, well, it's another test of faith.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:09Rich Roll?

  Are you really supposed to be a writer?

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Right. Like, what am I going to do if this doesn't work out? And I thought I wrote something that might make a difference. My wife said, it's pretty good. She didn't like love it. She thought it was okay. Didn't know it was going to sell a million copies as it has now. You know, no one had a clue. No one thought it would do anything. I didn't know. I thought I had something that was cool. It would make a difference. And I was, you know, positive energy. It was all about positive energy and it just, to me, it made sense. But I remember not even having the 10 rules when I sat there and started writing it, had a few. And then one rule led to the other, which led to the other, which led to the other. And I'm like, oh, I got my 10 rules now. And so we just kept putting it out there.

• 1:16:55Speaker 01

  Kept getting rejected, kept getting rejected. And then one day I'm in John Wile, I'm in, I'm sorry, Barnes and Noble, looking at the bookstore. I'm looking at the shelf and seeing all these books on the shelf. And I noticed John Wile and Sons was a publisher of a bunch of business books. And I considered this more of a business book. And I asked my agent if we sent it to Wiley. She said, no, we hadn't. I said, send it to Wiley. She said, okay. She sends it to Wiley. She sends it to the health editor. Cause she was more in the health, she was more in the health side of things. The health editor should have thrown it away, but didn't. Gave it to the business editor, said, here, Matt, take a look at this. He takes a look at it, goes, eh. Hands it to his assistant, Shannon Vargo. She reads it. The main character's named George. She has a best friend with a husband named George.

• 1:17:40Speaker 01

  And she decides she wants to do the book.

• 1:17:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:43Speaker 01

  Cause she actually remembered me from the Today Show. See.

• 1:17:45Rich Roll?

  Oh, she knew that. Yeah, but and then she, but she was new, right?

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  She was new, she only did a job for a few months.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  And she went to bat for you with her boss.

• 1:17:53Speaker 01

  With her boss. He said, if this doesn't go well, it could be your career. And she said, no, I want to do it. I believe in it. And they go, we don't have a lot, we don't have a lot of money. Can't give you a big advance. I said, I don't care. I just want the book out there. And so the book comes out. And right away it becomes a huge hit in Korea.

• 1:18:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  Which I shared before.

• 1:18:14Speaker 01

  And so that was surprising.

• 1:18:15Rich Roll?

  Have you, have you been able to figure out what, how that happened? Like, was there some news piece that came out? Like, no one knows. Like, there's gotta be patient zero for that. Like somehow somebody got it to somebody who got it to somebody.

• 1:18:25Speaker 01

  They were, they were in Singapore at a, at a book show. Where they were doing the foreign rights, where they're showing the foreign publishers, different books. And there were two publishers that started a bidding war over the book. And that's what happened.

• 1:18:39Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 1:18:40Speaker 01

  And so I.

• 1:18:40Rich Roll?

  They probably put some heft behind pushing it out there to, once it went out.

• 1:18:44Speaker 01

  The foreign rights sold for like $220,000.

• 1:18:47Rich Roll?

  That's crazy. People don't realize in publishing how de minimis foreign rights are.

• 1:18:52Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:18:52Rich Roll?

  Almost nothing.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  You go get a thousand dollars.

• 1:18:55Rich Roll?

  Oh, this is a, I'll get like an email from my, it's a great deal, $1,500 for France. I'm like, what?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  And, and my, my mom had, had, um, she read the manuscript, but she passed away before the book came out. So like, did my mom speak Korean? You know, cause she, you know, I always said my mom was, you know, she was.

• 1:19:13Rich Roll?

  Some past life thing with Korea.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  She was a Jewish mom. She had a strong personality. So I think, I, I always felt like my mom was up there and having like, just advocating on my behalf. Like, come on, just help my son, help my son.

• 1:19:24Rich Roll?

  So you're huge in Korea, but nobody in the United States knows anything about you or this book, despite the fact that you've been on the Today Show, which I think is interesting because, you know, there was a day and a time where if you were on the Today Show, that was it. Like you were, you arrived, man, and doors started swinging wide open. You know, the days of being a stand-up comedian and going on Carson, and then overnight, you're a household name. We don't live in that world anymore.

• 1:19:47Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:19:47Rich Roll?

  And, you know, I've heard it many times from authors who go on the Today Show or the other version of that. And they think it's going to be their defining moment. And it's like, nothing, you know, because the way we consume content has changed so drastically. That's a passive audience, right? As opposed to, for example, a podcast where people are already, they already want to hear what you have to say. They're a captive audience. And they're on their device, so it's a click away from buying a book or what have you. But having had that experience, I think actually, like you might've thought, this is terrible. But actually, that was the fuel that, you know, provided the motivation for you to go on this crazy tour, you know, like, I don't know how many cities you went

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  to, but it's one person at a time, connecting as deeply as possible, as opposed to, you know, doing it on a surface level in a Broadway, which is kind of like what the Today Show is.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  But the Today Show, even then, this was 2005, 2006, even back then, it was still the place to be. And I was on it four times, did a four-week series. So I should have become a household name. But here's the deal. If it doesn't, if it becomes something big, I never write the energy bus. And so I really believe it didn't take off because, one, I was meant to write the energy bus, but I was also meant to change.

• 1:21:02Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Yeah, you weren't ready.

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  I wasn't ready. And my spiritual maturity and growth hadn't happened yet. And so I was still at a place where, yes, I wrote these books. Yes, I had changed a lot in positive ways, but I still had to surrender a lot more. I still had to come to my knees a lot more and, and truly just surrender to a greater power. And that hadn't happened yet. But it only happened when I wrote, that allowed me to write the energy bus. And that happened. The energy must happen after I came to my knees.

• 1:21:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  And if it would have happened from the Today Show, which it should have four week series, it didn't. Looking back, again, what I thought was going to change my life actually did in a better way.

• 1:21:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's a great perspective to have on it.

• 1:21:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Rich Roll?

  So you go on this crazy tour, one person at a time, five people showing up at a bookstore, the crazy cat lady.

• 1:21:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. You've had them. Yes. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like the, like the one person that wants to talk to you for an hour and, you know, about publishing. They never want to talk about your book. They want to talk about their own book. They always want to talk about their own book. You know, and I actually made a free webinar that I give to people all the time now when they want to talk about how to publish your book. I said, hey, I did this webinar for you and for people who want to know so that you don't always have to talk to help people. You have it right there for them because I still want to help them.

• 1:22:20Rich Roll?

  Right. And maybe I could put a link up to that.

• 1:22:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love helping.

• 1:22:25Rich Roll?

  People that are interested in checking that out.

• 1:22:26Speaker 01

  Find their path. But yeah, they had, we had the most people we had were 100 people in Des Moines, Iowa.

• 1:22:31Rich Roll?

  This is like 2007.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. 2007.

• 1:22:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:35Speaker 01

  They thought Jeff Gordon was coming. That's why they showed up.

• 1:22:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right. Okay.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  They really did. I got called Jeff like four times.

• 1:22:41Rich Roll?

  So what's the, what's the tipping point? I mean, was it just a gradual build of awareness or did, were there a couple of things that kind of occurred where you, you know, suddenly found yourself like suddenly like, oh, man, now I'm selling a lot of books and oh, now I'm getting invited to go, you know, speak to the 49ers or, you know,

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:22:59Rich Roll?

  Whatever team.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  The Jaguars were the first team I spoke to, lived in Jacksonville, but a friend who was a trainer gave the book to Mike Smith, who was the defensive coordinator of the Jaguars. He gave it to Jack Del Rio, who was the head coach. Jack Del Rio called me up out of the blue. Would love to come meet with you. Met with Jack and that led to my first team I ever spoke to. Again, looking back, how does that happen? I'm an unknown nobody. I've never worked with even.

• 1:23:23Rich Roll?

  But you're showing up.

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I never even worked with a college team, you know, or even a high school team, but Jack Del Rio calls.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  That must have been intimidating.

• 1:23:31Speaker 01

  Very intimidating.

• 1:23:32Rich Roll?

  First time to go into that, like, all right, like, what am I going to say to these guys?

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  I remember walking down the aisle towards the front of the room. The team's all sitting there. Mike Tice is offensive line coach, big guy, coach from Long Island. And I walked by, he knows from Long Island and he goes, Strong Island, as I walked by him. Just remember that moment and I walk to the front of the room and I see Fred Taylor, Maurice Jones Drew, players who I watched on TV, who I loved, and now I'm here to speak to them. It was really intimidating.

• 1:24:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  But I said.

• 1:24:06Rich Roll?

  But has to be a moment where you're like, wow, like all that faith that I had or everything that I went through, I'm seeing the physical manifestation.

• 1:24:16Speaker 01

  I wish I was thinking that way. No, in that moment.

• 1:24:18Rich Roll?

  In retrospect, looking back.

• 1:24:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Retrospect, yeah.

• 1:24:20Rich Roll?

  But in the moment, no, you're just.

• 1:24:21Speaker 01

  In the moment, I was, in the moment, I said, you know what? I said, you have something that can inspire them, that can make a difference? Go for it. No fear. Go for it. You only live once. And so that was my mindset. Cause in being an athlete, I had allowed fear to ruin those moments. I had been in those moments where the moment was bigger than me and I didn't do well. So I always have this desire in those big moments to not allow fear to keep me from that moment, but to embrace it and just move forward with love.

• 1:24:52Rich Roll?

  Right. That's, that's one thing that, that Gervais talks about all the time. Like there are no big moments. There's just moments.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  Right? Phone's ringing.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Sorry about that.

• 1:25:01Rich Roll?

  It's all right, man. Don't worry about it.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  You probably heard that part out.

• 1:25:03Rich Roll?

  It's okay. It's life, man. Life's happening. You want to answer it?

• 1:25:08Speaker 01

  No, we can just hang it up.

• 1:25:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Oh, Jason, Ken. So, you know, in the wake of the first book's success, you've gone on to write, you've written 17 books. So that means you're like writing two books a year, right? It's crazy.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  A prolific output. And, and, you know, one of the things that I'm kind of dealing with right now, you know, Finding Ultra came out in 2012. It's been five years and I'm starting to unpack the next book and it's taken me a really long time and I've been really blocked. And Finding Ultra just flowed right. I mean, obviously I know the story. It was in certain respects, even though it was, I'm first time author, it was kind of an easy book to write because like I knew the story, obviously. And this, the one I'm working on now is a little bit trickier, but it's more than that. And I think it's something that you've experienced, which is you have a success and then you feel this internal pressure that the next one's got to be better, or if it's not as good, then you're going

• 1:26:09Rich Roll?

  to be, you know what I mean? Like that. And I, I know you've gone through that. So can we talk about that a little bit?

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  Sure. Yeah, we don't want to let people down. We don't want people to think maybe we're a fraud. I think it goes back to the imposter syndrome. Like, who am I to be writing these books? How did other books become successful? I'll read what I wrote years ago with Energy Bus or Training Camp, and I'm thinking, I don't even remember writing that. Like, how did I write that? And so there's this scary feeling of writing something new and it not being good. I think the more success you have, the more fear you have, because the farther you have to fall now. And a lot of people think, oh, once you have success, there's no fear. I think the fear is greater. So as an artist, like you are, it's about the work.

• 1:26:56Speaker 01

  And I believe it's about not thinking about what the outcome is going to be, other than I have a vision for it. I know I have to create a masterpiece, so I'm just going to put my love, my heart, my soul into creating what I'm meant to create, to make it the best it can be. And that should just be the only focus. So the craftsman is not thinking about failing. The craftsman's only thinking about the craft and doing the work and working to create a masterpiece. So it's outside in versus inside out. So we're looking outside at the expectation, at the height, and fear is outside of what people will think. But to write the masterpiece, it's basically writing what you feel meant to write and writing from within,

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  that which energizes you, that what you're passionate about, that what you want to share, and just go into that place of sharing it.

• 1:27:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. I mean, I think, you know, when you wrote The Energy Bus, like, you gotta make it happen. Like, there's nothing else going on, right? Like, you, this is just...

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  There was no fear, though.

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, right, because, and you don't have any, you know, beyond your family, and the sort of financial pressure that you were feeling, I'm sure, there weren't a lot of people pulling on you for your time, right? But now, your phone's ringing all the time, and all those opportunities are awesome, and you get to go and like, go and go to these cool stadiums and meet with these amazing athletes that, you know, you respect and revere. It's all good, right? But at some point, I would imagine you have to learn how to say no, because now's my writing time, or, you know, and those, it becomes a different decision tree.

• 1:28:31Speaker 01

  You have to say, you know what? I'm gonna do the art of writing and make that part of my craft and make time for that. Instead of saying, oh, I'm gonna take this speaking gift. You have to give up some speaking gigs. And that means money to write what you're meant to write. So what I try to do is write every December when things slow down. I don't, it's weird that I wrote two books a year because it didn't feel like it.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  So 2007 to, it's been 10 years, right?

• 1:28:59Speaker 01

  So it works that way. Actually, it's more like 15 books because the other two were, were a couple years before that. She did that. So 15 books.

• 1:29:07Rich Roll?

  All right, only 15.

• 1:29:08Speaker 01

  In 10 years, right?

• 1:29:10Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:29:11Speaker 01

  And the shark and goldfish and positive dog are real, real small, you know, real short. And one word I wrote with Dan and Jimmy. And so we wrote that together.

• 1:29:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  So I would say, you know, maybe it's about 11 or 12 that I wrote alone during that time. So almost one or a little more than one a year, every December. All the fables are definitely every December. And that's that spiritual time of sitting down and writing and making time for the work. But before every book, there's that fear that it's not going to be good or that

• 1:29:48Speaker 01

  it's not going to come this time. I think I feel that before every talk. What happens if I don't have it today? Like, what happens if I just don't have it?

• 1:29:55Rich Roll?

  Process of getting right? Do you have like a prepared, like keynote type thing? Or you just get up there and try to channel?

• 1:30:02Speaker 01

  So I have.

• 1:30:03Rich Roll?

  Read the energy of the audience.

• 1:30:04Speaker 01

  Right. I have a framework of what I'm going to share. So if the audience is a business audience, it's a different kind of talk. I spoke to Medtronic in Minneapolis, the leaders of Medtronic just recently. And that was based on the power of positive leadership. And I knew what their struggles were because I talked to them like three or four times. And really went through their issues, their challenges, the people in the audience, what they're going through. So I crafted a custom talk based on my principles, but to share the message that they needed to hear. But that homework was, was really necessary to deliver what they wanted. And they loved it, which is great. I was so proud of that because we had done so much preparation for it. And it really hit them home, hit home. So then.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  Other talks, you know, I work with Dell and EMC, the merger of those two companies. Have to find out what they're going through, the merger, leaders coming together. And then when I'm working with a sports team, again, what challenges are they facing? I go to a school district. Okay, tell me about what, what, what the themes are for the year. What are your issues, what are your challenges? So every talk is customized, which I like, and I have to prepare for. But it's basically, I have all these principles. I'm like, all right, I'm going to speak about this, that, that. And then I have to just put them together. What story goes here? What application goes here? How do I want to end this one? What's my beginning? So based on all these talks you give over the years, you sort of put together a framework of what the talk's going to be.

• 1:31:32Rich Roll?

  Gotcha. So in the Venn diagram, uh, you know, sports and business definitely overlap, right? And a lot of that sort of leadership and teamwork principles, I would imagine are, you know, equally applicable or similar. But how do you, you know, how do you differentiate? Like when you're talking to a sports team versus, you know, meeting with a division of a, of a company? Is it the same or is it, you know, is it a different language? Are the principles, do they vary at all?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think the principles are the same. You know, I have a power of a positive educator talk that I give to educators. And I speak to a lot of school districts in August. So as they're beginning their school year, I talk to the principals, the leaders, and a lot of times maybe 6,000 teachers of a district all together in a big kind of arena. I love that. I love making a difference in education. Like I charge less for it because I want to do it. A lot of business speakers will say, no, I'm not going to do it because they don't pay that. I want to go do it because education, I believe, is where we're going to change the future of our country. We're going to have an impact. So for me, it's more personal and passionate.

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  And I know that I got the master's in teaching at Emory for a reason because I never taught.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  But that's what you do. You are a teacher fundamentally. I mean, the speaking, the books.

• 1:32:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's teaching.

• 1:32:55Rich Roll?

  You're, you're teaching.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  I would consider myself a teacher more than a speaker. I hate the term motivational speaking.

• 1:33:01Rich Roll?

  It's a terrible term.

• 1:33:01Speaker 01

  I do not see myself as a, do they call you that when you speak?

• 1:33:04Rich Roll?

  I hope not.

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  But when you do go give a talk. I know they say ultra marathoner, you know, legend, this and that.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  I don't like it. Well, I don't, maybe somebody does. I mean, I don't think of myself like that, but you know, it sounds so corny. It sounds like you're, you're coming in with some canned thing, you know, that it's just schlocky.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Right. I hate that. And so, uh, hate the term motivational speaker. So I would say I'm a teacher who's teaching principles for leadership or principles for teamwork or principles for positivity and how to overcome these challenges. Or I love speaking to entrepreneurs about growing your business and building your brand and overcoming fear and the challenges that entrepreneurs face. My book, The Carpenter, I wrote because I wanted that to be about entrepreneurs who are going to work on their craft.

• 1:33:49Rich Roll?

  And they're going from the carpenter to the craftsman.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Right. And, and, and show up every day and do the work. Ignore the critics. Show up and work on your craft. No time for naysayers. I'm too busy creating my work.

• 1:34:03Rich Roll?

  What is the, uh, the thing that you see the most in terms of the Achilles heel of whether it's the sports team or the division of the Fortune 500 company? Like where are people tripping themselves up necessarily, but you know, commonly?

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  Great question. I believe the biggest challenges leaders are facing today, companies, teams, organizations are facing today are one, leaders are not focusing on their culture. They don't take the time to focus on their culture and say like, who are we? What are we about? What do we want to build? What kind of culture we want to create? What kind of impact do we want to have? The great organizations do, and those are the ones that everyone talks about. But enough are, too many are not talking about it and more need to. They're too busy putting out fires. They're too busy just trying to create results. Yeah. I, I talk about the fact that they're focusing on the fruit of the tree and ignoring the root. The culture is your root. And if you ignore the root and focus on the fruit, the tree dies.

• 1:35:04Speaker 01

  But if you invest in the root and make it your number one priority, you always have a great supplier of fruit. So it's kind of cultural. A lot of time it's harder because you have to invest more in that root. But over time, you get great fruit. So that's sort of the dynamic and the kind of analogy I share with leaders to help them understand that. And they get it. So that's my goal. Get leaders to focus on their culture because a lot don't. Second mistake they make is they ignore the negativity that exists in teams and organizations. So they don't want to confront it. No one likes to deal with negativity and actual confront the challenges that exist. So the reason why the energy bus has been so popular is because it deals with energy vampires. And it deals with negativity on a team and trying to convert it or transform it to positivity.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  And so they make the mistake of ignoring the negativity. So I'm a big believer in, hey,

• 1:35:54Rich Roll?

  Confront it.

• 1:35:54Speaker 01

  Confront it with the intent of transforming it. If you can't transform it, then you have to remove it. Too many leaders today, though, they'll say, you know, they'll read the energy bus and be like, you're either on my bus or off the bus. And I get the emails all the time, like, my boss is the biggest energy vampire of all. And they're giving us your book, you know, to read.

• 1:36:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what do you do when the leader of the pack is the vampire?

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, like Biggest challenge.

• 1:36:18Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Because that's the person who's charged with crafting and creating that culture. I mean, I think, you know, I don't, I have less experience in the corporate. I mean, I was a lawyer for a while, but less experience with that, more experience with sports. But I think there's a sense that the culture is what it is. Like, oh, the team, these are the guys on the team. That's the dynamic and there's nothing we can do about it. As opposed to this idea that it can be, it can be shaped, right? With some, with some intentional, you know, effort and exercise.

• 1:36:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. Once you know what you stand for, every decision you make is easy. And so every culture, every leader needs to say, what do we stand for as a culture? What are we about? And you just nailed it in the fact that so many leaders think it's static, but actually culture is dynamic. Every day you're creating culture by what you think, by what you day, what you do and by what you say, the habits you create. So culture drives the behaviors, the expectations. Those drive the habits and that ultimately creates the future. So it all starts with the culture we create. And

• 1:37:25Speaker 01

  The one thing that leaders do is they create great cultures. Great leaders create great cultures and we see it over and over again. And the bad leaders don't. I very rarely go into organizations that have bad cultures. Why? They're not going to bring someone like me in.

• 1:37:39Rich Roll?

  Right, because they're not looking at it.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  They're not looking at it. They don't care about it. So I love that you said culture is dynamic because it really is. And every day you are either creating it or you're allowing it to create you. Dabo Sweeney with Clemson, you know, national championship just this year. He has a book like 18 inches thick. That's all about their culture. And every year he goes over that book page by page with his coaching staff for four full days.

• 1:38:09Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:09Speaker 01

  In a retreat. Page by page. All right, this year we did this. We talked about this. Here's we did this. It seems Manadis like, why would you do that? And he said, because we can't forget what made this program what it is. We got to go back to our basics. It'd be nice if he summarized it in one page, but no. Page by page.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:29Speaker 01

  Of this book.

• 1:38:30Rich Roll?

  And that, you know, a positive functional culture is improved. Is it like, how do you, how am I trying to phrase this? You know, a positive culture, whether it's on a sports team or in a corporation, is going to be infused with connectivity, which is something you talk about all the time. Right? Like, how do you foster that connectivity? And it comes down to caring, right? Like whether you're an employee or you're a member of the team, you have to care. If you feel connected to these people, you're going to care more. That's going to trickle down and sort of foster that kind of culture that you're trying to foment. Right?

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, positive leaders, they unite the organization but connect with the individual. So they create unity, but then they develop relationships with the people they lead. And that's the other thing. Leaders don't make time to invest in relationships. They want results. But Andy Stanley said, rules without relationship lead to rebellion.

• 1:39:28Rich Roll?

  I can't get this guy to do what I want him to do. Well, like you don't even know what he's going through, right? Because you haven't taken the time to like invest yourself in his life. Like if he feels like you care, then he's going to deliver for you. I mean, it seems fundamental.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  It's so.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  But I've seen it, you know, in the law firms that I've worked in. Like people are so busy that, you know, the partner will tell me or would tell somebody, well, I don't, you know, I don't have time for that. You know what I mean? It takes a diligent, you know, focus to like say, I'm going to make that time and that will pay off later because I'll have people that, you know, feel like they're part of this team that I'm trying to create and they're gonna, they're gonna work that extra, you know, hour or two.

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  And that's why you see like Wall Street companies, like Wall Street businesses, they don't have the time for that. No one's focusing on culture. It's like, no, we're making money. This is what we're doing. We're a law firm. We don't have time for that. Sports teams, no, we're doing our X and O's. We don't have time for culture. No, we need to focus on...

• 1:40:22Rich Roll?

  And those are the ones where you're gonna have a lot of turnover.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  A lot of turnover, a lot of fires, a lot of issues. And then you see the Warriors, and then you see the Spurs, and then you see the Patriots, and then you see Southwest Airlines, and then you see great companies that have great cultures, and you see sustained success. You see sustained leadership and great leadership, and then you see the fruit ongoing of those organizations. And so, it's like, why don't people get this? Like, it's so clear. I guess if they didn't, if they got it, everyone got it, I wouldn't have books to write or talks to give because people would just get it.

• 1:40:57Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, well, Pat Riley makes pretty clear. You know, he's pretty transparent in his coaching methods and his results speak for themselves. So why isn't every coach trying to emulate that? Right? Like...

• 1:41:09Speaker 01

  That's the big question. Like, why wouldn't everyone do what they're doing? Now, they want to replicate the success, but they're not willing, I think, to replicate all that goes into creating a great culture, all the time, all the energy, all the effort. It takes a lot of work. I mean, you have to invest a lot to create a great culture. To be a parent, I have two teenagers, 19 and 17, takes so much to invest in my kids. It'd be a lot easier just to say, you know what? I'm going to do my thing today. I'm surfing all day. I'm playing tennis. I'm going to do this. You guys deal with it. But I know years later, I'm going to regret that. You know, I want them to be the best they can be, so I will invest and make time for them, knowing in the long run...

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  Everyone's going to benefit. And so I think the same thing goes for leadership. Like you could ignore your people, but if you ignore your people, they'll never perform at their highest level. And you'll never be the best team that you can be. So the best leaders I have found, they provide love and accountability. A lot of love, but a lot of accountability to being the best you can be. But love comes first. I always, I call it love tough versus tough love.

• 1:42:17Rich Roll?

  So for every CEO or coach or teacher or team captain that's listening to this, there's 10 or 100 employees or team members that are listening to this. And if, you know, I'm just trying to envision, you know, sitting in their shoes saying, you know, my boss or my coach or my teacher doesn't get it. And I don't know what to do.

• 1:42:41Speaker 01

  So we're creating a 360 assessment that we want positive leaders or maybe they're not positive leaders, but leaders to give to their team and say, how am I doing? Am I a positive leader? Am I helping you be your best? Like actually provide an assessment that your team answers. And if you're open, you'll get some great results that can help you get better. I had a leader tell me that he read my book, The Seven Cs to Build a Winning Team, the win in the locker room first I wrote with Mike Smith. And a big chapter is on communication. And he asked his team, how am I communicating? Some said, oh, you're great, you're great, you're great. You know, they said, because that's what we wanted to hear. But one said, you're not doing this, you're not doing that, you're not doing that. You make me feel this way.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  Actually, a couple said that. He said it changed his leadership style, became a better communicator, and he's seeing amazing results. We have this one program we call Driver Positive Change. It's our, it's our program. We help managers become better leaders. And we have a love letter to an energy vampire exercise as part of our training. You have to write a love letter to one of your energy vampires. And the love letter is a letter of encouragement, of belief and support. Like, here's what I see in you. Here's the good I see. Here's the great things you're doing. And you may not want to write that letter, but we have them do it. Well, one of our managers who went through it, she reported back to us and said she did the letter. They wound up sitting down for two hours and had an amazing conversation, talked more than they ever had, even in years of working there.

• 1:44:11Speaker 01

  The relationship bonded. She found out she was going through a lot of difficult challenges. That's why she was being a vampire. The leader found out that the employee was going through a lot of challenges, a lot of, had a lot of issues. That's why they were so negative. And now they're like incredible relationship. It completely transformed the leadership style, she said.

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. You know, the first part of your answer was involves a, you know, a leader that is open to these ideas, right? But I'm just imagining like the employee sitting in a cubicle or in their office where they're on a dysfunctional team, right? And they're not, they're not able to, um, you know, get the, get on the radar of their boss or, or the person's just not receptive, right? Like, so is the solution? I mean, I guess you could shoulder some responsibility to be a leader in that department yourself and try to transform it on your own, or you gotta leave, right?

• 1:45:05Speaker 01

  You have two choices. You change your attitude and say, you know what? I'm gonna lead from where I am. I'm not gonna complain. I'm gonna lead from where I am and be a leader and an influencer in my sphere. I call it making your bus great. You may not be driving the big bus, but you can drive your bus and make your bus great and a model for other buses. Or this culture is so dysfunctional, this culture is so bad, I don't see it changing. I'm gonna go be a part of a great culture and I'm gonna look for a great place to work, which is why great cultures have the pick of people who want to work there. So many want to work there. But I'm on a mission with this, this new book I wrote, The Power of Positive Leadership.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  Like, I want leaders to read this book, because I wrote it because, you know what? You, your number one job as a leader is to provide an environment where your people could do their best work. And if you're not creating that environment, if you're not being that type of leader, then you're hurting them and yourself. So my hope is that I can hopefully change as many leaders as I can, or inspire them and help them improve to be their best. And I've heard from a lot, you know, a lot that have changed, that have improved. That's what keeps me going. Those emails keep me going. Now, I have a lot more to reach. So does Ken Blanchard. So do, so do others that are out there. Patrick Lencioni wrote Five Dysfunctions of a Team. Hopefully, over time, you know, this has an impact. That's the hope. That's all we can do, right?

• 1:46:32Speaker 01

  But I think about that person in the cubicle, and it's the email I get most from people. My boss is an energy vampire. What do I do? And it's always start with you on the inside. What women said, what women said we convinced by our presence. Be the best that you can be, and then start creating from within, and then you'll, you'll transform. And you may leave, but if you leave, great. If you stay, you'll have an impact on the people around you.

• 1:46:59Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, the one thing you can control is your own behavior and your own attitude, right? And so I think when you get an email like that, you also have to parse, like, what part of this is this person being a victim?

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:10Rich Roll?

  You know, as opposed to telling, speaking truth to power, you know? And, and perhaps, and there's probably a sliding scale of that. Like, there's

• 1:47:17Speaker 01

  I've seen that.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  a certain kind of person that no matter what you tell them, they're always gonna say it's somebody else's fault.

• 1:47:21Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:47:21Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  So you gotta like, deal with that personality type first.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  I always look for that. When I'm looking, is this person a victim? Because I'll say something that I think is profound and helpful and get back

• 1:47:34Rich Roll?

  And then they'll tell you another reason why they can't do that.

• 1:47:36Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. Then I go, okay, I got it.

• 1:47:38Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right. Well, another part of, of what you talk about a lot is this idea of you gotta be, you gotta have a telescope and you gotta have a microscope, right? And there's different versions of this. I mean, Gary Vee calls it, you know, clouds and dirt, or, you know? Or, you know, it's sort of like

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  See, he would come up with the cooler terms, cooler terms than I would, you know? He would come up with cooler terms.

• 1:48:01Rich Roll?

  But the principle is the same, right? Like, you've got, like, it's, it's sort of in this internet culture and also in the kind of self-help world and everything that gets packed into that. It's like all about following your passion and have a huge dream and nobody can get in your way. And, you know, the, the universe is mine. You know, like this, there's a sort of millennial entitlement

• 1:48:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:48:20Rich Roll?

  that gets built into that as well. But, and that's great. You dream big, you know what I mean? But what are you doing right now? What is your next action? Like, what is, what are the details of how you're living your day on a moment by moment, hour by hour basis?

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  I love that. Well, that's the big picture vision of the telescope. Of where you do have a vision of what you want to create. We do need a vision. We need a north star that guides us. It's not some pie in the sky, but no.

• 1:48:44Rich Roll?

  But it anchors, it anchors what those decisions are going to be in those micro moments.

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  Right. So you have this big picture vision that that guides you. I mean, you have a vision that drives you with everything that you do. I have a vision that drives me. It's to inspire and empower as many, as many people as possible, one person at a time. Going back to the tour, always making a difference, one person. If I'm too busy for that one person, then I'm not doing the right work. And that means that if someone reaches out to me on Facebook, I gotta respond. Someone reaches out on Twitter, having a problem, I gotta respond. Not to, not to promote their book, or to teach them how to write a book, but you have a genuine problem with your life? I'll help you. Like, I will make time for that. So that's my vision that guides me. But then,

• 1:49:30Speaker 01

  what's the Zoom focus actions you need to take each day to realize the big picture in the telescope? So I have to do this each day. And I usually believe that we can do three things. Like, I believe you can really Zoom focus on three things each day. So what am I doing today to realize that picture? What's my commitments? Because a lot of people have big visions, but they don't have commitments to reach the vision. So I believe you have to be committed to the vision, and commitments are greater than goals. I'm a big, I'm a big fan of goals, but, but I'm a much bigger fan of commitments.

• 1:50:06Rich Roll?

  So explain to me the difference.

• 1:50:09Speaker 01

  So I was with an NFL team, and I asked them to write down their goals. And then I had them rip them up after they wrote them down. They took about five minutes to write them down. They were pretty upset. And then I said, you know why I'm having you rip them up? No, why? Why? They were actually angry. I said, well, tell me about your goals. I want to have so many receptions, so many passes, so many touchdowns, so many yards, you know? Everyone had their goals. Win a Super Bowl. I said, don't you think every other player in the NFL has the same goals written down? Doesn't every team right now have Super Bowl as one of their goals? So only one can win a Super Bowl. So will your goals take you to where you want to go? No, but your commitments will.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Now tell me what you're committed to in order to reach the goals. One guy said, I need to spend more time in recovery. I don't recover enough. I don't invest in my recovery. So my body wears down during the season. Another guy said, I eat too much fast food during the season. I did it last year. This year I need to eat healthier. Another guy said, you know, my body starts breaking down during the key, during the course of the season. I gotta visit the trainer when I'm injured and not ignore the trainer and take time for my health. They were all physical things mostly for their body, for their recovery, for their health, you know? And so they were now telling me their commitments. And it was powerful when they started saying what they were going to be committed to. One player said, I'm gonna spend more time in the film room, watching tape, watching film.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  I'm gonna commit to that.

• 1:51:41Rich Roll?

  It'd be interesting if you kind of rephrased it as that being the goal. Like my goal is to, you know, stay an extra half an hour after practice, three days a week, and do the extra fundamental drills or, you know, whatever it is like.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  Some guy said that.

• 1:51:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, some guys actually said, I'm gonna do this, this and this for extra time. I'm gonna show up early in practice and spend five minutes working on this. Yeah, each guy had something different that they were gonna do. But if you have a whole team that has their commitments written down, then you start to see that. And I love to do this with teams too. I say, okay, we all talk about being a great teammate, but let's talk about what great teammates do. And we'd put them up on the board. You end up all these things that make a great teammate. And then you ask each person to pick one they're gonna focus on during the course of the season.

• 1:52:26Rich Roll?

  I think you also have to get at the why. Like, why is that your goal?

• 1:52:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:52:30Rich Roll?

  Why is that personally important to you? And I think that that gets to the connectivity piece. Like, you gotta get, you know, beneath everybody's skin and find out what makes them tick, what's important to them and why it's important to them. What is the drive? Why is it important to you that you get this many yards or, you know, win the Super Bowl? And, and if you can connect with that, then I think you, you can, you can like, create, um, you know, a way to support that as a leader or as a coach.

• 1:52:55Speaker 01

  Love that. Like knowing your why, because we don't get burned out because of what we do. We get burned out because we forget why we do it. So I think you nailed it when the why always should drive everything you do. Like I have the team sometimes pick a word for the year. So each player picks a word. That's going to drive them to be their best. But then we ask, why'd you pick that word? Like, what's the why behind the word? Because it's the meaning behind the word is even more powerful than the word itself.

• 1:53:19Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. And where does service come into that?

• 1:53:24Speaker 01

  Well, some people's word might be service, you know, for me, serve was my word one year, but service is always.

• 1:53:30Rich Roll?

  So you pick like a word every year?

• 1:53:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:32Speaker 01

  Every year, pick a word.

• 1:53:33Rich Roll?

  Like your thematic.

• 1:53:34Speaker 01

  Been doing it for six years, wrote a book, One Word That Will Change Your Life with Dan and Jimmy. They've been doing this for over 20 years together. They're like accountability partners, great buddies. They've been doing it for years and they have a thing, one word. And so I started doing it when they told me the idea six years ago and it was catalytic. It was so powerful.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  So what have your words been over the years?

• 1:53:55Speaker 01

  So they have been, purpose was my first word. Serve was a word another year. Rise was my word another year. I wanted to rise to a new level of health. I was dealing with a lot of food challenges. I have a lot of food allergies. So I eat mostly vegan, except seafood. So I do seafood and vegan.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  My word was forgive last year, which was tough. That was a tough year because I had to forgive my biological father. So I worked on that. This year, my word is still, to be still. And to

• 1:54:31Rich Roll?

  That's a tough one.

• 1:54:32Speaker 01

  Not be drawn into all the craziness and the noise. Yeah, I'm not doing great with it this year. I have to admit, it's not been a great year with my word.

• 1:54:39Rich Roll?

  Word next year too.

• 1:54:40Speaker 01

  No, you're not allowed to pick it again.

• 1:54:42Rich Roll?

  Allowed to?

• 1:54:42Speaker 01

  No, because you know what? It's not meant to be a word where I failed or I didn't succeed with my word. It's a word that's meant to mold you and shape you and it's just part of the journey. But next year, there's a new word that's meant for you. So every year, there's a word that's meant for you. And I can look back and see how these words have shaped my life, you know? It was pray one year and my wife's word was persevere. So she had persevere. I had pray because we have teenagers. So we said somehow we'll get through this.

• 1:55:10Rich Roll?

  That's funny. What would you tell your, your young self, your 23 year old self? You know, what have you learned over the course of this adventure that you've been on?

• 1:55:19Speaker 01

  I tell student athletes this all the time in college. I say, the one thing I would tell myself is, don't worry, she's out there. You'll find her. In terms of meeting my wife. So everyone's searching for love, like. There are young people that worry about that. Like, they worry about meeting the one that they're meant to be with. And they do worry about that. So that would, one thing I would tell myself. The other thing I would tell myself is what I've learned from Dr. James Gills, and I've shared this before in other places, but it's so powerful. And being an ultra athlete like you are, Dr. James Gills is the only person on the planet, I believe, who has completed six double Ironman triathlons. Six double man. Is he the only person still?

• 1:55:58Rich Roll?

  I don't know. What's his name?

• 1:56:00Speaker 01

  Dr. James Gills.

• 1:56:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe.

• 1:56:02Speaker 01

  Six double Ironman. Last time he did it, though, he was 59 years old. 59.

• 1:56:08Rich Roll?

  That's awesome.

• 1:56:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he was asked how he did it. And he said, I've learned to talk to myself instead of listen to myself. He said, if I listen to myself, I hear all the negative, all the fear, all the doubt, and all the complaints. But if I talk to myself, I could feed myself with the words and the encouragement that I need to keep on moving forward. And just because we have a negative thought, doesn't mean we have to believe it. See, I think that's one of the biggest challenges we face as athletes, as people, as human beings, is that when those negative thoughts come in, we believe the lie that those negative thoughts tell.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Because we're failing to draw the distinction between the thinking mind and the higher self, right? You have to become the observer of your thoughts. And once you can bifurcate, and you go, oh, yeah, my brain is telling me this, but like, I actually have a choice. Just because it's saying that, I don't have to self identify with that.

• 1:56:59Speaker 01

  And where do those negative thoughts come from?

• 1:57:02Rich Roll?

  Could be, you know, because your dad left you when you were one. I mean, you know, you can go down the rabbit hole with that forever.

• 1:57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Those negative thoughts are spiritual. Those negative thoughts, I've had a lot of conversations with, with good friends who, you know, are spiritual people, they're not religious, but we've had, I say, where do those negative thoughts come from? They said, the intellect. I go, what's the intellect? Where are those negative thoughts coming from? They come from consciousness. And the duality of consciousness is there is love and there is hate. There is good, there's bad, there's, at the highest level, there's just oneness. But at duality, at our duality level, there is fear. And that fear Fear is a liar. Those negative thoughts are lies. And the more you can help people observe those thoughts and see them for what they are, and don't buy into them and don't believe them, then you can move forward. You can speak the truth, feed the positive,

• 1:57:53Speaker 01

  and move forward. That's what I would tell myself in the past.

• 1:57:56Rich Roll?

  How do you get people to come to that realization, though? I mean, what are the practices? Do you have people starting to like inventory and journal? Or what is the tactics?

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  The key is first awareness. Like, you'd first teaching this, like, sharing this with people is so important. And it's one of the things I've shared with a lot of the professional athletes this year. So this is one of the key messages I was sharing. And it's like, wow, it really hits them like, yeah, those negative thoughts, I don't have to believe them. Like, yeah, they're not, they don't come from me. Because the minute you realize they're not coming from like, you, you stop blaming yourself. And you realize that it's a spiritual battle. And you don't have to believe the lie. You could just continue to move forward. So I think first and foremost, but what you can do is write down, I heard on Mike Trava's podcast, he interviewed Jewel, the singer.

• 1:58:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was a great, that was a great one.

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  And she said, it was so great, because I had been

• 1:58:46Rich Roll?

  She was amazing.

• 1:58:47Speaker 01

  Ah, incredible. And she said she writes down her lies. She writes down her lies on one, the left side of the paper. She writes down the lies. On the right side, she writes down the truth to those lies. And I think we can all do that.

• 1:59:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it comes down to taking control of the story you tell yourself about yourself. Something I've talked about on the podcast many times, but we string together this narrative that's, you know, rooted in things that have happened to us, or things that we, you know, claim to be true that aren't necessarily true. And then we live out that reality. And when you, when you start to write it down, you can go, wait a minute, like, I don't have to define myself by this, or maybe this isn't even true. And I have the power to, you know, recalibrate that narrative and tell a different story about myself.

• 1:59:35Speaker 01

  I love that. Donald Miller wrote a book called A Million Miles and a Thousand Years. It's one of my favorite books, A Million Miles and a Thousand Years. Oh, it's incredible. And it's about the fact that our life is like a movie. And every main character in a movie wants to achieve something. But in order to achieve something, what, they must overcome some sort of conflict, some sort of adversity. It's the main central thing to any great movie, and so must we. And so the story you tell yourself as you're going through the conflict, as you're going through the adversity, ultimately defines whether you continue to move forward to reach it. So are we the victim or are we the hero? Is our movie an inspirational tale? Or is it a drama?

• 2:00:14Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  Or a horror story? And I think ultimately, we, the more we define our life as an inspirational tale, the more we see ourselves as the hero, not the victim. We get up and we move forward. Victims get knocked down, but what happens? They stay down and they complain. But heroes get knocked down like a victim, but then they get back up. And through adversity, through the conflict, they don't, they create the future.

• 2:00:39Rich Roll?

  I like that, man. That's beautiful. Well, we got to, uh, we got to bring this energy bus into its parking spot here.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  But, uh, It's been a, it's been a journey.

• 2:00:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, it's good. It's, it's been awesome. Um, but I, I always like to leave people with, you know, a little bit of wisdom or inspiration, you know, for the person who's listening, who just, who just feels stuck, you know, they're just, you know, they just can't see their way out of their current situation, which maybe isn't terrible, but ain't that great either. Like they're not living their best, most authentic life and, and, and they can't see where that exit hatch is. And they just need that first step or, you know, a little bit of guidance to kind of broaden their perspective and, and perhaps, you know, open up, uh, the, the possibility for a better trajectory.

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  I think the best thing we can always share is truth and perspective and principle, rather than say, do this, this and this, because actions are going to be different for each person, based on consciousness and based on what's meant for that person. But I always talk about the fact that we will all be pruned. If you go through life, you realize that you will be pruned like a tree. And if you've ever seen a tree that's been pruned, it looks like it's been destroyed, but it hasn't been destroyed. The pruning is meant to help the tree grow more fully.

• 2:01:57Speaker 01

  And just like that tree, we get pruned. And it looks like we've been destroyed, but no, that circumstance, that event, that challenge, that setback is not meant to destroy you. It's meant to help you grow more fully. And your perspective and your mindset during the pruning, during the challenge, ultimately determines whether you will continue to keep on growing, to become all that you're meant to be and to become more fully. So just being aware of that pruning, that it's part of the growth process. I believe there's four stages to greatness. The preparation stage, the, uh, the growth stage, well, the planting stage before the growth stage, planting, growth, and then the harvest. And so you have to go through the growth stage to harvest. You have to go through the pruning to go through the harvest. And it's gonna be all part of your journey.

• 2:02:42Rich Roll?

  Right, and not be in a rush to just get to the harvest.

• 2:02:45Speaker 01

  Right. And to know that, that there are stages in life that you have to go through. And it doesn't mean it's the end. Don't say it's the end. It's just a new beginning. So perspective and mindset, hopefully that leads you then to an action that you will take to better yourself and improve yourself. Whether it's a gratitude walk, a thank you walk, whether it's journaling, whether it's going for a run and starting to do more exercise, getting yourself fit. For each person, it's gonna be different. But ultimately, it's about becoming the best version of you. But ultimately, you have to know that this is just part of your growth process and part of your journey. And everyone has to go through it. No one goes through life unpruned.

• 2:03:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I like that. I think, you know, for a lot of people, they feel bad about themselves because they don't know what they're passionate about, or they don't feel like they have this sense of purposeful direction, and they shame themselves. And I think it's okay to not know that. And I think it's important for people to understand that you have permission to not know that you are in that, you know, you're in that pruning stage, or you're in this gestation period, and you're supposed to be contemplating this and wrestling with it. And, and trust that, you know, ultimately, if you devote yourself to that process, that you will ultimately figure it out and then emerge into that growth phase that precedes the harvest.

• 2:04:07Speaker 01

  And start to just live on purpose. You may not know what your bigger purpose is, but what I have found is the more you start to live with purpose and live on purpose and be intentional, a greater purpose starts to flow through you. So I, I call it your small Y. Like your small Y, like, okay, I'm just gonna make a difference here. I'm gonna go to the coffee shop and I'm gonna impact that person in the coffee shop today. I'm gonna make that person smile. I'm gonna get on that bus, I'm gonna see how many people I can interact with on the bus today and just make them laugh. Or maybe you're an introvert, okay, this is all extroverted thing, but maybe you're an introvert and I'm gonna write something today that's gonna make a difference and I'm gonna send it to someone. So start living with intention on purpose. And I find that the more you do that,

• 2:04:49Speaker 01

  this bigger purpose that we're talking about starts to flow through you. It's almost like the pipeline opens up and the bigger purpose starts to flow through you once you start living on purpose.

• 2:04:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's true.

• 2:04:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:59Rich Roll?

  That's a good way to, uh, I think we parked the bus.

• 2:05:01Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:05:02Rich Roll?

  All right, man.

• 2:05:03Speaker 01

  It's been a ride. Thank you so much.

• 2:05:04Rich Roll?

  Great talking to you, John.

• 2:05:05Speaker 01

  Great talking to you.

• 2:05:06Rich Roll?

  Really appreciate it. Um, awesome, man. Keep doing what you're doing. Two books a year. Next time we sit together, you'll have thirty-five books. If someone's listening, what, you know, what's the, what, what's the first book that they, if they're, if, you know, if you're new to the listener, where do you suggest people?

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  I always say just start with the energy buzz.

• 2:05:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, you know, your best sell, that's still the best, best selling.

• 2:05:29Speaker 01

  Sells more than all my books combined, I think.

• 2:05:30Rich Roll?

  Really? That's crazy. Wow.

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  And, um, I would just say start there. All about positive energy. And they can visit me at johngordon.com, J O N Gordon dot com.

• 2:05:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you're on, you're on Twitter. You're pretty active on Twitter, right?

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, love, love to. Love to tweet sometimes a little too much, but I do like to, to share positive messages. I mean, a lot of ideas will just come to me and I, I tweet them out.

• 2:05:52Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. And you, are you, you have any speaking gigs coming up or is that calendar up on your site?

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:05:57Rich Roll?

  Or is that all private? Do you ever do like open to the public?

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  Some, some events where they'll have, they'll have the events. I don't put on my own events, but I'll speak at public events. But I'm going to the. Horticulture Association of America, speaking in Columbus, Ohio.

• 2:06:12Rich Roll?

  Nice.

• 2:06:13Speaker 01

  And then, yeah, coming back from there, I'm gonna do the Rams on the 30th of July. So I'm looking forward to speaking to that team and then hopefully do some public events in the fall.

• 2:06:22Rich Roll?

  Awesome, man.

• 2:06:23Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 2:06:24Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, best of luck.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 2:06:26Rich Roll?

  Come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 2:06:28Speaker 01

  All right. Yeah, next time we gotta talk about our diets.

• 2:06:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we should.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, that would, uh, that's, to me, that's fascinating and it's something that I think people need to eat healthier in this world. And what you're doing is so important. I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's what's, excites me most about your work. I mean, I know you do an incredible work. You're so insightful on so many things, like, wow. But, but, but this is, our body is our temple.

• 2:06:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is. It's true. And, and I'm sure you see this, I mean, you mentioned it earlier. When you go and you visit these professional athletes, a lot of them are just not eating that well, man. And it's crazy. These guys are Ferraris and they're putting, you know, junk in the trunk.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  I feel like 10, 20 years from now, we're gonna actually realize that a lot of injuries are the result of the foods.

• 2:07:11Rich Roll?

  No question about it.

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  That they're eating. I would love someone to be able to do a study to figure out, like, pulled muscles, I guarantee are the results of different foods and food allergies that people are allergic to.

• 2:07:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't doubt it. All right, we'll come back and we'll have the whole food.

• 2:07:24Speaker 01

  Awesome, awesome. Thanks, Rich.

• 2:07:26Rich Roll?

  We did it. You all right? You feel good?

• 2:07:27Speaker 01

  I feel good.

• 2:07:28Rich Roll?

  All right, cool.

• 2:07:28Speaker 01

  Feel great.

• 2:07:29Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Peace.

• 2:07:30Speaker 01

  Blads.

• 2:07:33Speaker 01

  Thank you. Awesome. Thank you.

• 2:07:35Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:07:36Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:07:36Rich Roll?

  Good job, man.

• 2:07:37Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 2:07:47Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. Great conversation. I hope you guys got a lot out of that. I certainly did. It was a joy being able to connect with John in person and share his powerful message with you guys today. One pretty wild thing, something that I thought would be worth mentioning is that after we wrapped the podcast and I was just sort of chatting with John as I was packing up all my gear, I discovered that George Boyardi, the young Cornell lacrosse player who unfortunately perished, that we discussed in the conversation, and that is the subject of John's book, The Hard Hat, actually went to my high school, Landon School in Bethesda, Maryland, which is... Sort of a perennial lacrosse powerhouse, so it seems my path with John is even more intertwined than I originally realized. It's kind of an amazing bizarre coincidence.

• 2:08:29Rich Roll?

  In any event, there's a foundation set up in George's name. So if you want to learn more about George and his story and the work that the foundation is doing in his honor, you can check that out at boiardi foundation.org. It's B-O-I-A-R-D-I foundation.org. And of course, for more on John, go to john gordon.com, J-O-N gordon.com. No H in the John. He's also at john gordon 11 on Twitter and on Instagram, and you can find him on Facebook, all those places. Give him a shout out, let him know what you thought of the podcast, say, hey, what's up? If you would like to support this show and my work, there's a couple of ways to do it. Just share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on iTunes, hit that subscribe button. That's big. Make sure your friends subscribe. That's huge, too.

• 2:09:14Rich Roll?

  We also have a Patreon set up for people who want to financially support my work. And thank you to everybody who has made that effort. It's quite incredible and I greatly, greatly appreciate it. Every week I send out a free weekly short email. It's called Roll Call, packed with tips and tools and resources, things I've come across over the course of the week. Usually a bunch of articles I read, a documentary I watched, a new product that I'm enjoying. Just useful stuff, no spam. I'm not trying to make any money off this. There's no affiliate links in it. I don't profit from it at all. I did take a three week break, but I did send one out yesterday, so I'm back on the game. If this sounds interesting to you, again, it's totally free. Go to richroll.com and just enter your email address in one of those email capture windows that comes up.

• 2:09:57Rich Roll?

  And when you're on my website, you can also check out the shop where we all have all kinds of like cool swag and merch. We've got signed copies of all our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, This Cheese Is Nuts. We've got cool t-shirts and sticker packs and just fun stuff. Also, I want to talk about the spring. I keep doing this, but I think it's really important. My podcast conversation with Scott Harrison from Charity Water was really impactful on me personally, and I know it was for a lot of you guys who are listening. And my call to action in the wake of that was to encourage all of you to join their monthly subscription service called The Spring. 100% of all money is received as a result of a monthly donation that you make goes entirely

• 2:10:37Rich Roll?

  100% towards providing clean water for people that don't have access to it. As a result of this call to action, we have now enlisted the support of the RRP community to the tune of four wells per year. You guys have contributed to four wells per year. And my company is now chipping in by building an additional well every single year. That's our commitment. So that's five wells this year alone. But I think we can make it 10. I really want to make it 10. And I think that's a very doable goal because most of you have an extra 20 bucks or 30 bucks a month that you can donate for such an extraordinary life-changing payoff.

• 2:11:19Rich Roll?

  So I want you to really think about the impact that you can have and how amazing it will feel to you to make that impact. So make a donation to Charity Water via The Spring, their monthly subscription service. To learn more, go to this very specific URL. It's important that you use this so they can track and know that you guys are coming to them through this podcast. Here's what it is. C W T R dot org forward slash Rich Roll Spring. C W T R dot org forward slash Rich Roll Spring. There's also, I'll put that up in the show notes, and there's a banner on the episode page for this episode too, so you can click through that. And finally, I want to thank everybody who worked tirelessly to help put this episode on. Jason Camiola for audio engineering and production.

• 2:12:03Rich Roll?

  He also compiles the show notes and helps get the WordPress page configured. He does a lot of work behind the scenes. Shawn Patterson for help on graphics, all the cool motion graphics that you see. Anything involving fonts and typeface and images, that's Shawn. He does a great job. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. See you soon. Peace.

• 2:12:25Speaker 01

  And plants.

• 2:12:55Speaker 01

  And plants.