Alison Wood Brooks (on the science of conversation)

Alison Wood Brooks (Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves) is a behavioral research scientist. Alison joins the Armchair Expert to discuss why growing up as a twin is like watching an alternate version of your own life, how we underestimate the complexity of chin wagging, and the reality that human connection is not just about transactional information exchange. Alison and Dax talk about Kant’s sparkling smart people dinner party rules, how hungry we can be to extract vulnerability from others while being hesitant to share it ourselves, and how asking more questions creates magic in one’s personal life. Alison explains research she’s done into the relationship between humor and power, how asking more questions creates magic in one’s personal life, and why saying “I’m sorry” is more powerful than “I love you.” Follow Armchair Expert on the Wondery App or wherever you get your podcasts. Watch new content on YouTube or listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free by joining Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial by visiting wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ http://www.wondery.com/links/armchair-expert-with-dax-shepard/ now. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dax Shepard?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shepard and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hi.

• 0:05Dax Shepard?

  Today, we have Dr. Alison Wood Brooks. She is a behavioral research scientist and professor at Harvard.

• 0:13Speaker 01

  At Harvard. That's a very fancy school.

• 0:16Dax Shepard?

  Harvard Business School.

• 0:17Speaker 01

  That's right. HBS.

• 0:18Dax Shepard?

  HBS. She has a new book out right now called Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. She is an incredibly good guest.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  So fun. And I do think we take for granted conversation. We think we're just gonna show up and be able to do it. I really, really like this in the context, I mean, in general, but dating, which we talk about a fair amount, and why a lot of these are not very successful.

• 0:48Dax Shepard?

  You actually put no time into planning how you're gonna converse.

• 0:51Speaker 01

  There's like real tricks for conversation.

• 0:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And it's not disingenuous to use them.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:57Dax Shepard?

  Also, she's an identical twin.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:59Dax Shepard?

  So we had a lot of fun twin chatter.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  That part is very cool. And

• 1:03Dax Shepard?

  Further imploring us to find a twin expert.

• 1:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, we really want that.

• 1:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  She's one of the guests that we have that is a teacher at a fancy school and their class is like so impacted.

• 1:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, people on a waitlist. Yeah, it's one of these favorite classes.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Do you know, I often, I have a recurring dream.

• 1:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  That I am not finished, like everyone's finished with their classes. It's the last semester and I forgot to like do, put my classes in correctly and now I'm behind and I'm gonna have to take all these extra classes to graduate.

• 1:42Dax Shepard?

  Yep.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  And then I'm also looking at the classes and I really want this specific class, cause it's like the fun class that everyone wants to take.

• 1:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  I have this dream a lot.

• 1:53Dax Shepard?

  I have half of that. I don't ever have the class I'm trying to take.

• 1:57Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:57Dax Shepard?

  I have the like, what happened? We're mid semester. Have I gone to any classes?

• 2:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03Dax Shepard?

  There's a final. I wake up on set a lot where I'm directing something I haven't read.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:09Dax Shepard?

  I'm like, oh my God. It's ill-prepared. Anxiety.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  But her class would be one in my dream.

• 2:16Dax Shepard?

  You should add it. Yeah, you should incorporate it.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19Dax Shepard?

  Please enjoy Alison Woodbrooks. We get support from Quince.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about the fact that the holidays are already here? It's crazy. I feel like I blinked and now we're in gifting season, which I'm not really mad about because I do love giving gifts. And Quince is making it so easy to find something great for everyone on my list, including myself, because let's be honest, self-gifting is a love language.

• 2:44Dax Shepard?

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• 3:00Speaker 01

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• 3:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, I'm gonna tell you this, it just got chilly for the first time this year in California, and I'm so excited. And I'm wearing my Quince cashmere right now.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 3:19Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, and I am going to gift this to some of my friends. I hope they're not listening.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Quince is also more than clothing. They've got fine jewelry for your significant other, leather bags for your bestie, hotel-quality bedding to set up your guest rooms, chef-grade cookware. That's an amazing thing they offer here. And it's such a good gift because people don't like buying cookware for themselves, but it's very important. And they also have five-star luggage, another good gift that people don't like buying for themselves.

• 3:45Dax Shepard?

  Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was Armchair Expert. It's the best way to support the show. This episode is supported by Helix.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Okay, can we talk about how November is basically survival mode between the holidays, the travel, the hosting, the cooking, the everything? Sleep is the one thing keeping me from completely unraveling.

• 4:21Dax Shepard?

  It really is the foundation, and I think people underestimate how much a bad mattress is quietly ruining their day. You wake up stiff, your back's angry, you're already behind before your feet hit the floor.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  That was me before Helix. I took their sleep quiz, which is so fast. It took me like two minutes and they matched me to a mattress that actually fits how I sleep. Not a guess, not a firm or soft coin flip. It's a real match. I have a midnight mattress and I really like it. I was noticing it because I actually had to sleep in one of my other beds recently.

• 4:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  That doesn't have a Helix mattress on it and I really could tell a big difference in my sleep.

• 4:54Dax Shepard?

  Temperature was all over the map.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  It was a mess.

• 4:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  I need a new one.

• 4:58Dax Shepard?

  Look, they've got over 20 mattress models. So whether you sleep hot, need extra back support, or you've got a partner who moves around all night, there's one built for you. Plus free shipping and a 365 night happy with Helix guarantee. That's a full year to decide.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Helix has been named the most awarded mattress by Forbes, Wired and more. So it's not just us being enthusiastic, the experts agree.

• 5:19Dax Shepard?

  Right now, Helix is running their Black Friday sale with up to 30% off. Go to helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. That's helixsleep.com/armchair for up to 30% off your Helix mattress. Helixsleep.com/armchair.

• 5:55Dax Shepard?

  Most people who love Diet Coke will acknowledge it does seem to be a bit of an addiction.

• 6:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, because it's a stimulant, right?

• 6:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 6:03Speaker 01

  We cut through so many cases of Diet Coke at HBS, at Harvard, because so many of the faculty are ADHD and they're self medicating in tiny doses.

• 6:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's their over the counter rhythm.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, in addition to their real rhythm. Although Diet Pepsi is becoming more of a thing, I don't know if you guys heard about the new trend.

• 6:21Speaker 02

  Say it.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  There's a song out called Diet Pepsi and Diet Pepsi sales are skyrocketing.

• 6:27Dax Shepard?

  Come on.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's real.

• 6:28Dax Shepard?

  I want to see the.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  She's a big.

• 6:31Dax Shepard?

  I want to see a link to the.

• 6:32Speaker 01

  The data?

• 6:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Speaker 01

  It's real. Some people have converted from Diet Coke to Diet Pepsi.

• 6:38Speaker 02

  I wanted you to say that it was Britney Spears because she had that like amazing. Remember the ad back in the day? She was so hot.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  She was.

• 6:45Speaker 02

  She was so gorgeous. I would love to see her resurgence.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Get back in it.

• 6:48Speaker 02

  Britney Spears with the Diet Pepsi, she's the one bringing it back.

• 6:52Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Addison Rae.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Addison Rae.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  Kind of a new gen, Britney Spears.

• 6:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  If we're being real.

• 6:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 6:58Dax Shepard?

  I don't know that. Is that the case?

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 7:01Dax Shepard?

  It's funny you'd say that because you have a reference in the book. You chose an artist and I was like, that's a young artist.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Ariana Grande?

• 7:09Dax Shepard?

  Yes, you talk about her video to describe context.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yes. Look at you with your memory. Holy, holy majesty.

• 7:16Dax Shepard?

  And I was like, wow, you have three children. I don't know your age.

• 7:19Speaker 02

  I'm turning 40 next month.

• 7:20Dax Shepard?

  Congratulations.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  I'm at a major inflection point in my life. You're hitting me at the right time.

• 7:25Speaker 01

  You're young.

• 7:27Dax Shepard?

  Where are you from, Allison?

• 7:28Speaker 02

  I grew up in upstate New York, in the Finger Lakes area, very Rust Belt-y.

• 7:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 02

  When I was growing up there, not fancy. Since I've moved away and become an adult, it's a beautiful place and I think the world is more on to it now.

• 7:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so what's really exciting and it comes up quite often, this topic, and in fact, we are in search of a great twins expert.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Oh, am I the expert?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  Maybe.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  I think I might be the expert.

• 7:53Dax Shepard?

  I think you're too close to it to be an expert.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  That's a good point.

• 7:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you won't be as objective.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  A lived expert.

• 7:58Dax Shepard?

  Sarah is your identical twin.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 8:00Dax Shepard?

  I don't think I ever really considered this. It's adjacent to self-awareness. We all strive to have a good deal of self-awareness, but you articulate it in the book and I wouldn't have considered this, is you also have like an external version of self-awareness where you get to watch her move through the world and try things and see how they react. That's very peculiar, isn't it?

• 8:19Speaker 02

  It is.

• 8:20Dax Shepard?

  In an interesting way.

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Seeing if being more outspoken, like you can't say, well, it's because they look like this. All the factors are the. Same. So that is very interesting.

• 8:28Speaker 02

  And we all have multiple selves, but as a twin, you get to see one of your sort of selves outside of your body. It's an amazing, lucky life. I don't know anything else, but it's really quite something.

• 8:40Dax Shepard?

  Are you mirror twins? Is one of you left-handed and one right?

• 8:42Speaker 02

  No.

• 8:43Dax Shepard?

  Oh, bummer. See, that's one of the things I need to answer. How many people are like that?

• 8:46Speaker 02

  You're right. I'm not an expert. I don't know those answers.

• 8:48Speaker 01

  But you're identical.

• 8:49Speaker 02

  We're identical. We didn't know we were identical until high school.

• 8:53Speaker 01

  What?

• 8:53Speaker 02

  The AP Biology class was like, hey, can we test you and figure it out?

• 8:57Dax Shepard?

  Oh, wow.

• 8:57Speaker 02

  And they did. And then you lay the results side by side. This was way before 23andMe. And they were identical. I mean, it looked like the same person.

• 9:04Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  My parents didn't know they were having twins until I was out. It sounds like the dark ages.

• 9:10Dax Shepard?

  Would you feel like an internal embarrassment when she would embarrass herself?

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Of course. In the same way that you do if you're hanging out with your sibling or your very close friend and they do something, there's always a vicarious embarrassment. But this is amplified even more because it's a reflection of you. You're watching yourself do an embarrassing thing as it unfolds live. And you have this normal sibling thing where you're like, stop.

• 9:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you said there's like a combination of things that were helpful. One was being able to see how you seemed in public, but then also you guys had constant, unfiltered feedback.

• 9:44Speaker 02

  Two things. You're sort of watching a version of yourself interact in the world. So that's a passive version of feedback, where you're seeing how the world reacts to this version of you. But then you're also directly talking to each other in the way that very close siblings do. And you feel even more empowered to be sort of brutal to each other, right? Like, what the hell was that? Ew, gross. Don't do that. Relentless. We are still that way. She lives a mile down the road from me.

• 10:06Dax Shepard?

  She does.

• 10:07Speaker 02

  She also has three kids, two boys and a little girl.

• 10:09Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 10:10Speaker 02

  Swear to God.

• 10:11Dax Shepard?

  And is she a professor?

• 10:12Speaker 02

  She is not a professor. She's a cool twin. She runs a nonprofit. It's amazing. It's called Prime Coalition.

• 10:17Dax Shepard?

  I never thought of that either. You could only give so many compliments to your identical twin before.

• 10:21Speaker 02

  It's like a self-taste.

• 10:23Dax Shepard?

  It would sound indulgent and narcissistic. You're like, she's beautiful. She's super smart.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Beautiful, stunning. Yeah. She's a dad.

• 10:30Dax Shepard?

  She's the smartest person I've ever met.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  I've never seen anyone who looks as pretty as her.

• 10:33Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you gotta be careful.

• 10:35Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's like a weird self-taste. But honestly, I admire her so much. She's done really amazing things.

• 10:41Dax Shepard?

  So your hair is naturally curly?

• 10:43Speaker 02

  Big time.

• 10:44Dax Shepard?

  And you chose to straighten your hair. So you were doing things to try to carve out some individual?

• 10:49Speaker 02

  The whole existence, my whole existence, anyway, is every moment you're making these choices of who am I gonna be? How are we similar? How are we gonna differentiate? When are we gonna cooperate and work together and collaborate? When are we gonna compete? She's gonna play the flute, I'm gonna play the oboe, but we're both gonna be in the orchestra.

• 11:07Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And you were a three-point shooter and she was a mid-range shooter.

• 11:10Speaker 02

  She's a three-point shooter.

• 11:11Dax Shepard?

  Vice versa.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  I got that Brooks mid-range.

• 11:14Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you both played basketball. It must have been so fun when you guys came to schools in junior high and people were like, "There's twins on this team."

• 11:21Speaker 02

  We're not quiet, drinking violet. One of me would have already been a lot.

• 11:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. There is this added layer of like, you like a boy. If he likes you, I don't know, conceivably, he'd also like... Was there anything tricky there?

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Of course. I think we only dated the same guy once.

• 11:38Dax Shepard?

  What if he said four times?

• 11:39Speaker 02

  Wow, but you did do that. Maybe. When you're young, one year we held hands for a week and then four years later, they went on a date. I think that's kind of the extent of it, because that would be really weird.

• 11:49Dax Shepard?

  And are your current husbands similar?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  They are similar in some ways, but quite different. She's always had different tastes than me, actually, in suitors. And in the ways that complement how she and I are different from each other. And you saw this a little bit in the book. I was so hard on her about who she was dating. My expectations for who she would end up with were even higher than for myself, which are already so high.

• 12:13Dax Shepard?

  Did you ever feel inferior to her, or superior, or both?

• 12:16Speaker 02

  Both. Because it's like having a mirror, you actually get a better sense of what you're good at and not good at, because you have this example of someone who is actually slightly better or slightly worse than you at certain tasks. As a psychologist now, for a long time, I would have loved to believe that everything is malleable, everything is trainable and learnable, and you can change so much about yourself. But I think being an identical twin does highlight how many things are outside your control and genetic. Our hands, if you laid them side by side... I could not tell them apart, our feet, our voices. I still to this day answer the phone, hello, this is Allison, because I can't even tell the difference in our voices just on the phone. There are things about our bodies and about your mind that you don't have control over.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  And then I had my own kids. They each come out so different. And you're like, holy cow, nature's really a thing.

• 13:08Dax Shepard?

  It's fascinating.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  It's so fascinating.

• 13:10Dax Shepard?

  So you went to Princeton for undergrad and then you went to Wharton for graduate school. What was the undergrad degree in?

• 13:18Speaker 02

  Psychology was my major and I got a minor, they called a certificate there in finance. Not because I was interested in finance per se, but because I was really interested in economics and this judgment and decision making behavioral science stuff.

• 13:31Dax Shepard?

  Behavioral economics?

• 13:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  Wait, sorry, I have one more twin thing. I know.

• 13:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's okay.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  We're past twins. I have to know if you have the thing that they all have where you can sort of read each other's minds.

• 13:43Speaker 02

  In this book and in my course and in conversation in general, there's so much mind reading that you have to do of all people. Like we're constantly trying to figure out, what are they thinking about? How are they feeling? Are they interested in this right now? Are they bored? There's this tremendous level of mind reading. I think twins get better at that with each other. This is a hypothesis. This has not been studied, but possibly they get better at it with other people as well because they just had more practice doing it, their whole development, their whole childhood. But I think that's where the stereotype comes from with twins is that they can read each other's minds. They've spent a lot of time together. They know each other really, really well and their brains work similarly.

• 14:25Speaker 01

  True.

• 14:25Dax Shepard?

  See, we got into a little bit of a chat about the validity of these telepathy tapes thing that's going around. We were using ourselves as examples because we're both quite good at predicting what the other. I'm more inclined to think it's just pattern recognition. And I also think if you A, observed your sister her whole life. So God, you've seen her react to every way. And then intuitively, you kind of know how you would react. You know, input A is going to equal this stimulus is going to equal this output. I tend to believe it's that.

• 14:53Speaker 02

  Totally. And what it has shown me is even though we're so Good at predicting what the other person will do. We have this tight knit, which psychologists would call shared reality. You're better at predicting what your twin's gonna do than probably anyone else in the world. And I still don't know exactly what she's thinking and feeling.

• 15:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:08Speaker 02

  It just shows you, even when you have so much in common, you have the same upbringing, the same genes, so many shared experiences, you still can't read people's minds.

• 15:18Speaker 01

  There's still a mystery element.

• 15:19Speaker 02

  You can get close. The more you interact with somebody, the more you actually care and are good at pattern recognition and pick up on patterns in their behavior and how they think. You can get better at it, especially within specific relationships. But you still don't know perfectly what Monica's thinking all the time.

• 15:35Dax Shepard?

  I think what's interesting and worth following up on that thought is, I actually think you probably could always predict. But you're often missing a lot of the context.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 15:46Dax Shepard?

  You don't know what happened. This is the first example that we get to in your book. You know your sister really well, but you don't know if when she stopped at the gas station, someone called her a whore. You know everything else you've observed, but that thing is still floating around. So I do think if you did know all the details, you would be in still the high 90s. It's just, we don't really know all the details.

• 16:05Speaker 02

  Exactly right.

• 16:06Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so in graduate school, you start focusing on negotiation?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, and emotions.

• 16:14Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, why people's behaviors impacted by their feelings.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:18Dax Shepard?

  So what caught your attention?

• 16:21Speaker 02

  I realized that there was a lot of research in clinical psychology about anxiety and the sort of high level anxiety that requires medication or therapy. And I was like, you know what, though? Everybody's feeling anxious a lot of the time. And it's influencing how they're walking through the world, all of the decisions they're making, all of these choices, how they talk to other people. I wonder if there's a way that we can study anxiety in that way, that's sort of outside the sphere of clinical psych. As a pathology that needs diagnosis, which is obviously so important. But what about the sort of lower grade, normal anxiety that most people are feeling a lot of the time? Let's figure out how that's influencing the choices that they're making as they go through their day. Negotiation was one of the places that we looked, but we

• 17:06Speaker 02

  We also looked at advice. When do you seek advice? When do you take advice?

• 17:10Dax Shepard?

  Who do you seek it from?

• 17:11Speaker 02

  Who do you seek it from? Do you feel like you have to listen to it? Dax doesn't seek advice from anyone.

• 17:17Dax Shepard?

  No, I do. But remember I said I seek the advice that I think I'm going to get.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Oh, right. We did talk about it. To confirm.

• 17:24Dax Shepard?

  If I want to indulge in this bad behavior, I call a person I know who regularly indulges in that and is not going to say, you know better. And then when I actually want to change, I call Tom Hanson. Okay, so you end up at Harvard, teaching negotiation, and you start doing a lot of clinical work and experiments.

• 17:43Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 17:43Dax Shepard?

  And it definitely expands out. I have a list of fun things.

• 17:46Speaker 02

  Negotiation has been this course that's been taught at every business school and law school for a long time now. It's a great course. The students show up, they take on these roles, and they pretend to be, you know, the manager of a factory, and you have to negotiate all this stuff. It's informative. It's great. As I was teaching it, though, a couple of things occurred to me. One, our students at Harvard are already very strategic people. And I was like, do I need to be teaching people who are already quite strategic to be even more hard-driving? Does that align with my values? That's question number one. Number two, so many of the exercises were like, well, you have to negotiate for a car, or you're going to go buy a house, or you're going to negotiate a merger, or a really big deal at work.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  I was like, I'm a grown-up, and I don't really have those conversations very often. Maybe once every two months? But you know what I do all the time? Is talk to people in conversations that on their surface should be easy. And then at moments, I'm like, oh, this is maybe not as easy or as fun as it should be. So my sort of aperture of what I was getting curious about and thinking about how to help people was sort of widening.

• 18:51Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you did experiments on speed dating, parole hearings, doctor-patient interactions, negotiations, sales calls, instant messaging, face-to-face chin wags between strangers.

• 19:01Speaker 02

  What's that? I love that word. Chin wag is literally your chin just ob, ob, ob, ob. It's a synonym for, oh.

• 19:07Dax Shepard?

  1930s.

• 19:08Speaker 02

  I got your chin wag, girl. I needed to know. That's what you do here. That's true.

• 19:13Dax Shepard?

  You could put all of those under the umbrella of negotiating, right?

• 19:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 19:17Dax Shepard?

  And I think the things that would be normally studied or you'd be drawn to is all the things you listed are quantifiable. Like, I want this amount, they're offering this amount, the outcome's measurable. But in a romantic relationship, you get into these gradients of leverage and control and power. Those are not easy to quantify and measure the outcome of.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  I remember very vividly, back when I was teaching the negotiation course, I had a student raise her hand one day and she was like, "So is this just about like solving a math problem?" Because in the way that those exercises were set up and the way that we think about negotiating, it sort of is, because it's all these things that are quantifiable. You've put numbers on what you care about, and then you try and sort of trade on differences to expand the size of the pie and then claim the largest part of it. And as a psychologist, it made me deeply uncomfortable. Not everything is quantifiable. So much about life and about how we feel towards each other is emotional and trust and fun and love and I want to keep this private. And it just felt like we were missing a big piece.

• 20:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I wrote down, you said, "While strategic and technical skills can help people get ahead in many ways, being a successful person is about relationships, and relationships are about talking." And I guess I wondered, did you kind of feel like the previous work in communication and negotiation felt maybe a little too calculated or manipulative? Even when I have people on that'll be like, "How to talk to the right or how to talk to the left?" I'm like, the underbelly still feels like the ultimate goal is to get someone to believe the things you do, which I think fundamentally, I'm against.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, and missing a huge part of what it means to be the most human we can be. And we love each other and want to have fun together. It's like, not about just sort of transactional, "How can I get as much information out of you? How can I tell you the most amount of information?" Even now, a lot of economists focus very narrowly on information exchange. Are we exchanging accurate information? But so much of the social world is not about information exchange at all. We're just looking to fill time. We're looking to conceal information and maintain privacy. We just don't want to feel awkward around other people. We want to have fun. We want to learn. From each other. I felt like that whole bit needed more of a focus.

• 21:30Dax Shepard?

  So you took all these conclusions and then you wove it into a class you call Talk, How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. I don't know where you got that, but what a stroke of genius that is. How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. But it became hugely popular. It's a heavily impacted class at Harvard. And you've taught a thousand students over the last four years. You were invited to be a consultant to the Celtics.

• 21:56Speaker 02

  Wow. Dang, girl. Mid-range jump shots now.

• 22:00Dax Shepard?

  You found your way to the Celtics as a basketball player.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  It all circles back. Yeah.

• 22:06Dax Shepard?

  Talk is a practical guide to having better conversations in a variety of settings, work, parenting, dating, trying to make connection. And so my first question is, do you think we underestimate the complexity of conversations? I think we all just are like, yeah, conversations, I know how to have them. I'm having them all day long.

• 22:23Speaker 02

  Chin wagging.

• 22:24Dax Shepard?

  I might underestimate actually what an abstract and complicated thing a conversation is, just on the surface.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  I mean, we start learning to talk to each other when we're one, one and a half. You're a toddler. You do it every day of your life with an enormous number of people, very diverse range of conversation partners. So by the time you get to be a teenager and then an adult, it's second nature to you. It feels like you should be an expert and maybe you are an expert. You see other people who are seemingly amazing at it and you're like, wow. And then you feel bad if you feel like you're not.

• 22:57Dax Shepard?

  It also has the illusion of being innate, which it's not.

• 23:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 23:00Dax Shepard?

  It's like reading. It's this very abstract thing. I'm making a bunch of noises to transfer the thoughts I have inside of my brain internally, into your brain internally. And you're going to respond in a way that you'll transfer your thoughts. That is highly complicated.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  When you look under the hood of what's going on during conversation, it is remarkably complex. You get to this point of acceptance where you're like, of course, there's going to be moments of awkwardness. Of course, we're going to forget to say stuff that we meant to say, or say things that we regret, or interrupt people, or have all these little collisions, because it's not second nature. And watching children learn to do it, reading or talking, opens your eyes to how this is not natural. This is not innate. It's hard to learn to read. It takes years to really get good at reading. It takes even longer to learn how to be a good conversationalist. And we get to adulthood and we're still not that great.

• 23:49Dax Shepard?

  Right. So I guess in just thinking it's innate, you might not think that it's something that you could approach mindfully with a tactic. I like that you say people will put 20 minutes into planning their outfit to go meet someone.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  Everybody.

• 24:04Dax Shepard?

  And they'll put zero thought into when I arrive, what will I talk about, what topics do I bring up? You don't give it any thought.

• 24:10Speaker 02

  Think about how much time you spend picking out your outfit, making a reservation at the restaurant, buying your makeup, getting your hair done. And literally during all of that, you could be thinking, what are two things we could talk about once we're together? But most people don't do that.

• 24:23Dax Shepard?

  Right. You just take for granted it'll just happen.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  It'll flow.

• 24:27Dax Shepard?

  And then the dates suck.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  Right. Well, yes. But also, do you think people might feel like that's contrived? I know people think it's contrived. Yeah. So we've asked people, there's tremendous aversion to this idea of forethought, particularly for people that you know really well. And it goes back to this assumption or this hope that it's second nature. You have this feeling that conversation should feel natural.

• 24:52Dax Shepard?

  You say it's the myth of naturalness.

• 24:54Speaker 02

  Myth of naturalness. It should feel spontaneous and invented on the spot and a little bit magical that you just land on topics that are fun to talk about and there's never going to be a lull and you're going to just know where to go. And we feel that way even more with people that we know really well and love. We're like, oh, it'll just come, which is maybe true a little bit more when you know somebody well compared to like your work colleague that you don't like. But in all of the cases, whether you're averse or not, when you actually have people plan topics ahead of time, their conversations are measurably better.

• 25:27Dax Shepard?

  Well, I love that you're contrasting it with the other amounts of effort you put in. No one's thinking like, well, I'll just naturally look good. And if I don't naturally look good, it's not a fit. Or I'll naturally arrive there. None of these things are going to happen. So would you give me a little historical context for conversation? How we thought of conversation, how it's evolved? I was kind of fascinated with the power dynamic of a monarchy and how that affected things. How has our idea of a conversation evolved?

• 25:55Speaker 02

  We actually know very little about when humans evolved the ability to have dialogue. And talk to each other. Estimates vary quite widely. There are signs in the archaeological record. The fossil of jewelry is a sign that they must have learned to talk by this point because they had to pass that knowledge down across generations in order for it to be trapped in the archaeological record.

• 26:19Dax Shepard?

  Or they even do these super fascinating things. Well, yes, they'll find a necklace of fox teeth. And then they'll do the actual math of how long it would take to procure that many teeth and then string it and all the work that would be involved. And what you have to acknowledge about this necklace is that it was a group effort.

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Exactly. And then they make hypotheses about, well, would they have been able to collaborate on this if they hadn't yet learned to actually talk to each other, communicate in some way?

• 26:44Dax Shepard?

  You would have to be able to tell them, here's what we're making. We're gathering teeth because we're going to make this object.

• 26:50Speaker 02

  Here's the project.

• 26:51Dax Shepard?

  Someone have to lay out a game plan.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  That's how we're trying to figure out, when did humans evolve this ability? Then you fast forward, the book starts in the 1700s, when there were all of these monarchies in Europe, whose kings and queens told people how to talk to each other. Here are the people who are allowed to talk to each other at these times. And these are the topics. And here are all the compliments you have to say about me.

• 27:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Right? That was it. And then around the French Revolution and right after, in the Enlightenment and during what was called the Age of Conversation, people started to realize, oh, we can get together and talk about what we want to talk about. And it was in these fancy salons in Paris. And it was happening all over Europe. And so the book zooms in on Immanuel Kant, who was this famous philosopher.

• 27:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, we love Kant.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  And he lived a very fascinating, very regimented life. Most of his life, he would get up and he would go for his walk at a specific time. He would sit down and do his work at a specific time. They called him the Koenigsberg clock. So a very regimented guy. He was not wealthy until late in his life, when he was finally able to afford a home of his own.

• 27:57Dax Shepard?

  He couldn't even get a professorship. Blew my mind.

• 28:00Speaker 02

  That's crazy.

• 28:00Dax Shepard?

  He lived in boarding houses and he was like a sub-teacher, basically.

• 28:03Speaker 02

  A sub-teacher and he would have dinner in these rowdy pubs at night. And as this fancy, very smart philosopher, he would get really annoyed. He's like, this is boring. I want to talk to smart people about my smart ideas. So finally, when he was able to get his own house, he started hosting these dinner parties, which became very well known. They were highly coveted invitations to Kant's house for these dinner parties. What I found so fascinating to read about and learn is that his dinner parties had all these rules of conversation. So he almost was kind of acting like this little king in his kingdom. And his rules were, we're going to talk about specific topics at the beginning. We're going to talk about specific topics in the middle, then we're going to joke at the end. We're going to have food and wine that mirrors each of the phases of the meal.

• 28:46Speaker 01

  I want to go to this.

• 28:47Dax Shepard?

  He curated the guest list, so you wouldn't have five physicians. You'd have a physician, you'd have a clergy member. So it was going to be an eclectic group. There were some grounders, like no interrupting, no monologuing.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  No arguing. So surprisingly, he didn't like debate. He didn't really like when people argued about stuff, especially about the French Revolution. He was like, this is for us to have fun and learn from each other, and it should feel delightful the whole time.

• 29:12Dax Shepard?

  Take the ideas or leave the ideas. You don't have to defeat them.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Exactly. And so that was sort of the beginning of it. During the age of conversation, this idea was cropping up all over Europe. There were all these philosophers who were pontificating about what it meant to have good, sparkling conversation. It was sort of subversive because it was the first time that they weren't just doing what the king or queen told them to do. And then the Industrial Revolution happened, and people started mixing a lot more. We're not just talking about highfalutin philosophers getting their fancy friends together. People are going everywhere all the time. You never know who you're going to run into in all classes and all status. So we need to now figure out, what are we talking about? How are we talking? What are the new rules of conversation?

• 29:57Dax Shepard?

  Well, what you're first describing is that mixing of the class is hugely impacted by the move from rural life to city life. You live within a stone's throw of the rich person.

• 30:06Speaker 02

  And you're going to see them on the road as you're walking past, and you're allowed to greet each other. If you say hi, what are you going to say? Can you even tell who's who anymore?

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:16Speaker 02

  And I love that.

• 30:17Dax Shepard?

  The boundaries really fell apart. So you Your framing of this is to think of conversation in terms of a coordinated game, which you take from game theory. Tell me what a coordinated game is.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  Yes. So fast forward. So all of this mixing is happening. The big experiment in democracy is happening in America. All the Europeans think that Americans are no good at conversation. We're talking about ourselves all the time and spit while they're talking. I mean, there's all kinds of stereotypes developing. Fast forward a bit more, in the mid 1900s, middle of the 20th century, game theory appears. So these are economists and game theorists like John Nash from A Beautiful Mind, the movie.

• 30:56Dax Shepard?

  Sure, sure. Janusz von Neumann.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Yes, Morgan Stern, Thomas Schelling. Now, they studied what they called coordination games, which were really simple, but at the time, they were really hot and flashy. So it would be like the game of chicken is a coordination game. Any choice, two or more people are making independently that they can't talk to each other. So like in a game of chicken, you're coming towards each other. You both have to choose, am I gonna go right or am I gonna go left? But you can't talk about it. If you coordinate, you pass successfully. Motorcycles or seatos or whatever you're on.

• 31:27Dax Shepard?

  Horses with jowls.

• 31:28Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. If you miscoordinate, you collide. That's a simple one. There are non-cooperative coordination games, like the prisoner's dilemma. Do you know the prisoner's dilemma?

• 31:37Dax Shepard?

  The Stanford Prison, no.

• 31:39Speaker 02

  No, that's different. That's the Stanford Prison Experiment.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I did it.

• 31:43Dax Shepard?

  Wow, you're good.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  I've been trying to remember who did the Stanford Prison Experiment.

• 31:48Dax Shepard?

  And I told her I don't care.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I said, I'm going to commit this to memory, and I did.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  You did it. I thought you just had an electric shock just now.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  That's how it felt.

• 31:56Speaker 02

  That's how I reacted to the name, too. Yes, Milgram did the Stanford Prison Experiment and the shocks.

• 32:01Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  No?

• 32:02Dax Shepard?

  The shock we just learned about. That was in England.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  That was a different guy.

• 32:08Speaker 02

  I thought Milgram did shocks.

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Or is it Milgram that did shocks?

• 32:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, Philip Zimbardo.

• 32:12Speaker 02

  Zimbardo did the Stanford Prison.

• 32:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Oh, my God.

• 32:15Dax Shepard?

  You flipped him?

• 32:15Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 32:16Dax Shepard?

  Hoisted by your own petard. You were celebrating, and I congratulate you. This is wonderful.

• 32:23Speaker 02

  This is a horrible conversation.

• 32:24Dax Shepard?

  You were right. Okay, so Zimbardo, dude.

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yes, Stanford Prison.

• 32:28Speaker 02

  Milgram is like the shock.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Milgram.

• 32:30Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  I'm never gonna be able to.

• 32:33Speaker 02

  I'm gonna quiz you at the end.

• 32:37Dax Shepard?

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. We get support from No Bull. The holidays can get hectic. You finally hit a post summer routine and suddenly you're on hosting duty every week.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  That's when you really need to ground yourself.

• 32:55Dax Shepard?

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• 33:26Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 33:27Dax Shepard?

  Right? I do a lot of jumping onto a little platform and I want a little more flexibility. And boy, do they deliver.

• 33:32Speaker 01

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• 33:37Dax Shepard?

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• 33:45Speaker 01

  They also make a great holiday gift. You know, I love gifting, a purposeful one that actually supports someone's goals and routines. And it's not a gift that just ends up in the back of the closet.

• 33:54Dax Shepard?

  Stay stronger than the season. Head to nobullproject.com all holiday season to shop new deals every week. We are supported by Squarespace. So here's something I think about a lot. Most people I talk to on this show, the ones doing really interesting things, they all had a version of their work that existed before anyone else saw it. It was just theirs, notes, ideas, projects they were tinkering with. And then at some point, they made the decision to share it. That's the part that's scary, right? Going from, I'm working on something to here's what I made. Rob went through the exact same thing, building our site on Squarespace. And what made it doable was that he didn't have to become a web developer overnight. He just had to show up with the idea. Squarespace handles the rest. Beautiful templates that

• 34:36Dax Shepard?

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• 35:18Dax Shepard?

  Everyone in the same matching set looking ridiculously cute in front of the tree.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  I love matching pajamas. I'm literally going to be in coordinating sets with all my friends this holiday season. Because I got them, spoiler to my friends who are listening, the same Skims pajama set I've been living in. They are so soft and cozy and they look cute. So you can leave the house and go get a late night hot chocolate and be cozy.

• 35:43Dax Shepard?

  It's so great how Skims has sets for everyone, too. Women's, men's, kids, even your pets. So nobody in your life has to be left out this year.

• 35:53Speaker 01

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• 36:00Dax Shepard?

  Okay, tell me more.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  So comfortable, very chic, too. The top is a button down, but very, very soft, easy to sleep in. But as I said before, you can multipurpose this and look super cute.

• 36:13Dax Shepard?

  Hot chocolate runs. It's like the pajamas we grew up in, except without the scratchy polyester that made opening presents feel more like a hot yoga class that nobody signed up for.

• 36:22Speaker 01

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• 36:42Dax Shepard?

  This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Every family has that one holiday tradition nobody actually enjoys, but everyone keeps doing because stopping it would feel like a federal offense. For me, it was a specific meal situation that I will not name because my family listens. But at some point, you have to ask yourself, am I doing this because I love it? Or because I'm afraid of what happens if I don't?

• 37:04Speaker 01

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• 37:20Dax Shepard?

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• 37:40Speaker 01

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• 37:48Dax Shepard?

  You start feeling it.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, because then I had it this past weekend and I was like, oh, my God. And just thank God, thank God for her. Yeah.

• 37:56Dax Shepard?

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• 38:27Speaker 01

  Okay, sorry. So yours is separate from all of it?

• 38:29Speaker 02

  Different. Forget about Zimbardo's Sanford Prison Experiment. Forget about the shocks. So the prisoner's dilemma is a coordination game that people were thinking about. You imagine there's two people being questioned in separate rooms, interrogated about a crime, and they both face a choice, and they can't talk to each other about it, to either stay quiet or snitch. Okay, if they both stay quiet, they're going to go to jail, but not for very long. If they both snitch, they both go to jail for much longer. So it seems simple that you should stay quiet. Except if you snitch and the other guy stays quiet, you walk free.

• 39:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, this is great.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Everybody is tempted to betray. And so this is a non-cooperative coordination game because you're incentivized to not cooperate.

• 39:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, interesting. You are also incentivized to cooperate.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  That's what makes it hard.

• 39:18Dax Shepard?

  The biggest reward is to walk free. I'm trying to measure it in a utilitarian way. I feel like both people with a reduced sentence is still better.

• 39:27Speaker 02

  In theory, logically, but if you're the person, you start to get the why these games are interesting to people. Because then you can change all kinds of stuff. Who are you imagining in the other room? What's your relationship with them? What do you know about the person? If you did this game 10 times in a row, based on their prior behavior, what are you doing the last round?

• 39:44Dax Shepard?

  Russians have a weird outcome in this game.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 39:47Dax Shepard?

  I wish I could remember the source because it'll just sound like xenophobia. But yeah, one of these many books that has talked about the prison experiment, talked about how Russians asymmetrically will punish even when it costs them.

• 40:00Speaker 02

  These games have been studied so much that I'm sure there are lots of cross-cultural findings about how Germans play, how everyone plays. So economists and game theorists were kind of obsessed with these coordination games. Now, fast forward to now. We have whole fields that have been studying social psychology, communication, all of this stuff. And what I realized is even though we have these whole fields that are about interpersonal interaction, not a lot of people had gone to the trouble of actually recording real people talking to real people at very large scale. The reason they hadn't is because we needed new technology to do it.

• 40:34Dax Shepard?

  Right, you couldn't have film cameras running, although your hometown would love it. Kodak would still be thriving. Yeah, we needed a digital revolution.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  We needed natural language processing and machine learning to help us analyze tons of transcripts at once. We just weren't ready to do it until very recently. But as we were sort of like, oh, we should do that. We should record tons of conversations and analyze them. I also realized conversation is just like those coordination games that the game theorists were studying back in the 1950s, like Thomas Schelling. He has a famous one where he asked people, if you had to meet up with people at noon tomorrow in New York City, where would you go?

• 41:11Dax Shepard?

  I know what the answer to this is.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  Wait, is it a riddle?

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Or is it just a fun talking?

• 41:15Speaker 02

  It's just a coordination game. You can't talk about it. And everybody writes down their answer.

• 41:19Dax Shepard?

  I unfortunately know too much about it.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Let's pick LA.

• 41:22Dax Shepard?

  Let's do it.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah.

• 41:23Speaker 02

  So if you had to meet up with Monica tomorrow, somewhere in LA at noon, think in your mind where you would go.

• 41:33Dax Shepard?

  It's not here.

• 41:34Speaker 02

  It can't be here.

• 41:35Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 41:36Speaker 02

  Monica, what's your answer?

• 41:37Speaker 01

  Kara.

• 41:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, same.

• 41:38Speaker 02

  Oh, the bar at Kara?

• 41:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:43Dax Shepard?

  That's exactly what I thought.

• 41:44Speaker 02

  Is that just because we know that we?

• 41:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:47Dax Shepard?

  The New York one, a lot of people will say the Empire State Building. It's a landmark. Let's see the Brooklyn Bridge. But there is a right answer.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  The most frequent one that people say is Grand Central Station.

• 41:58Speaker 01

  Everyone will be arriving there.

• 41:59Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so there is a kind of a high probability.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  It's kind of a riddle.

• 42:03Dax Shepard?

  Kind of a riddle, yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  Thomas Schelling called them focal points. It's because it's stuff that your mind goes too quickly that you think other people are gonna do.

• 42:10Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, high probability. The first thing you think of when you think of New York, I'll go there.

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, or here. That's a focal point for you in your shared reality and your relationship. That helps you coordinate. So what we realized about conversation is it's just like these coordination games, except every little moment is like a coordination game. When you're trying to decide, what are we gonna talk about next? How are we gonna talk about it? What are they excited for me to ask? Where should we go next? Requires this level of shared reality, these focal points, and this mind reading. But it's so much more than just one choice. Do you stay quiet or snitch? It's like, and now, and now, and now, and now. And you have to make those choices relentlessly.

• 42:51Dax Shepard?

  It's almost incredible we can communicate.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  I agree. It is incredible. That's what linguists will tell you.

• 42:56Dax Shepard?

  Almost everyone can relate to some social anxiety, the fear of small talk, being in an elevator. And that is all present. But in general, it goes shockingly well. It's the anomaly you hear two people screaming at each other on the sidewalk.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  And even when they're screaming at each other, they're taking turns. They're listening to each other. There is some information being exchanged that they may get the opportunity to rehash later.

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  It's still amazing that we are able to do this. And when you look at actual transcripts between real people, whether they're shouting at each Other or not, you start to realize, oh, it is a train wreck. We're interrupting each other all the time. We're not actually listening. We're having half finished thoughts. We get excited about a thing and then we get excited about another thing.

• 43:35Dax Shepard?

  You said 24% of the time your mind is wandering.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  And I think that's an underestimate because as a proud member of the recent legion of middle aged people who've been diagnosed with ADHD. So this was my research and it really hit home. It was very validating. So there was previous research showing that our brains are not built to focus on one thing. Our resting state is mind wandering outside of conversation. In our research, we looked at it in conversation. So we interrupted people every five minutes and we were like, were you just listening to your partner? Were you just listening to your partner? Asking them to self-report.

• 44:08Dax Shepard?

  Which is gonna be, I think, skewed low.

• 44:11Speaker 02

  It is way skewed low because people know that it's not polite to say I wasn't listening. Or they're not sure if they were listening because they weren't listening.

• 44:17Speaker 01

  They probably thought, oh, of course I was listening, but not really. They probably couldn't repeat.

• 44:22Dax Shepard?

  Or you think you're doing both things? Yeah, I'm listening and I'm wandering.

• 44:25Speaker 02

  Which is often true. So I think this 24% number, one, is staggeringly high and comforting to realize. And two, probably a huge underestimate of what's really happening.

• 44:35Dax Shepard?

  This is why you've always saying that an AI companion might actually be wonderful because they actually won't be thinking about anything but you and they have no agenda to promote their own.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  I'm so curious and excited to see what happens with it, but you just put your finger on exactly the thing that as a teacher, coach, scholar of conversation, this is what's been on my mind about it, which is what makes someone a good conversationalist is relentlessly trying to focus on the other person and what the other person needs. An AI, if you're talking to a chatbot, they don't have any of their own sincere needs. They are only there to serve your needs. And what I worry about is that the more we interact with an entity like that, a non-human entity that's just there to serve you and it's so good at serving you. It's amazing at serving you.

• 45:17Dax Shepard?

  It's a narcissist machine.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  Exactly. Is training us to, when we turn to an actual human, forget that the mission is the complete opposite.

• 45:26Speaker 01

  That's so true.

• 45:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think, A, it's bad muscle memory for future conversations, but I actually don't even think it'll be. Appealing now it will be appealing to people who are objectively lonely.

• 45:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:38Dax Shepard?

  The reward of conversation is the primate social interaction and the approval and the status and the connection and all the web of what being a social primate is. So having it within and out of an object doesn't really get you what you're after.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  I'm so curious to start studying who is this appealing to? Who is enjoying it and why? There will be no stakes in that conversation with an AI. There's always stakes between any real one-on-one relationship that come up.

• 46:09Speaker 02

  You're going on a journey through someone else's mind.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:12Dax Shepard?

  I was just telling Monica when I'm using the AI to make an image, I actually to break myself of all my habits I have when dealing with people. And when I was dealing with AI, the first time it would generate the image, I would go, great. Literally, I take the time to say this to the AI. Great job. Really good start. I think where we could do better. And I did this four or five times. I was like, oh, I don't have to do any of this. I can treat it like a fucking slave.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then what if you lost that skill?

• 46:36Dax Shepard?

  I know.

• 46:37Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 46:38Dax Shepard?

  It's like, how often am I doing that where then I talk to a human like that?

• 46:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:41Dax Shepard?

  Just as obviously my muscle memory made me talk to a computer like that, which is insane if you think about it.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  It's lovely.

• 46:47Dax Shepard?

  Good job, little guy.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  It's nice.

• 46:49Dax Shepard?

  You're a good boy.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  They want to be real boys anyway. This is a ding ding ding because I was just talking about this with one of our friends. She has somebody in her life who doesn't have a lot of friends and struggles with that. And I was like, well, it would be great if there was a robot friend. This person has other outlets and is not fully reliant on her and can go to dinner with this robot. And you can program it to have the type of conversation you want. And yes, it sounds scary, but it's unfair because we're good at making friends.

• 47:20Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I was gonna say, I'm saying that and that's a luxury because I have real people in my life and I'm not terribly lonely. And I think it'd be more appealing. My prediction for what'll make it work is they're actually going to have to build in tension.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  It has to care about things. That's what's going to help it simulate a real person. Those desires will never be sincere, but you can tell it to pretend to care about things.

• 47:42Dax Shepard?

  It needs the ability to get pissed off. You and be cold to you for it to work.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  And complicated. And I mean, ideally not give you what you need all the time.

• 47:49Dax Shepard?

  It's like when they talk about building the sim as a hedonic treadmill, it won't work. Like, if you have a simulation for humans to live in, just getting everything they want all day long will be a failed simulation.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  What I worry about is people who are already lonely probably don't love conversation. Maybe they're not as good at it, or maybe they're just more shy. And then they do find AI particularly rewarding. There are so many underserved populations or vulnerable populations, why that would be the case. It's like a little bit of a downward spiral then, where it's actually then ruining your muscle memory for how to actually engage with real people.

• 48:21Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you lay out an architecture in the book to improve conversation.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  I do.

• 48:25Dax Shepard?

  And it's conveniently got an acronym, which is TALK. So we have topics.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Did you backrenim that? What does that mean? Oh, my God, teach me. No, I am. Teach me. This is like Milgram. Does it mean you back into it? Yes.

• 48:41Dax Shepard?

  You're out past your skis a lot, though.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  I'm really bald. Milgram. Yeah. But, okay, did you have TALK and then you're like, I'm gonna figure out? I honestly don't really remember the deductive versus inductive process of it. What I do remember are the things that struck me as the most helpful and surprising as we were learning them from our research. And then I was able to craft them into a very logical item framework that builds in complexity over time, focuses on the informational, transactional things we need to do in conversation, and the emotional, relational stuff. It, in a way, quite ambitious because it's trying to encapsulate the full landscape of what we're trying to do in the social world.

• 49:23Dax Shepard?

  But TALK does stand for topics, asking, levity, kindness. So let's start with topics. You claim small talk isn't the enemy, and I have to push back on that. I talk for a living. I enjoy it so much, but having to talk about

• 49:38Speaker 02

  The weather.

• 49:39Dax Shepard?

  Fucking weather.

• 49:39Speaker 02

  But this is the thing, you don't do small talk, you move past it immediately. That's why people like listening to you. It's why people like talking to you, is you don't get trapped in small talk world.

• 49:49Dax Shepard?

  So tell me why it's not bad. Why should we embrace it?

• 49:52Speaker 02

  So many things about the way that we talk to each other. Each other are deeply ingrained social rituals. Small talk among them, you have to start at small talk. If you are meeting someone for the very first time, we have to start somewhere and it has to be a topic that anybody could talk about easily. It's this well-worn place that you're searching, ideally move away from towards something more personalized, more interesting, more exciting. The goal would be to chase the energy away from it. The problem isn't with the small talk itself, but people get trapped there too long.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  They linger and it starts to feel dutiful and awful and meaningless and shallow. And that's what everybody dreads.

• 50:29Dax Shepard?

  And this is where we get into what we talked about, having a bit of a game plan before you end up places. In fact, you talk about the outcome of dates for a second date is kind of measurable if you go in with a bit of a game plan. So one of the techniques is switching topics frequently. You got to come with some in the holster, I guess.

• 50:46Speaker 02

  Actually, we saw this in the dating data. One of the killers of conversation, dating or otherwise, are long pauses. Long pauses happen when you've stayed too long on something that you don't have anything left to say.

• 50:58Dax Shepard?

  You've really beaten a dead horse.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  People start repeating things they've already said about it. They start laughing uncomfortably. The pauses get longer. You gotta go somewhere else.

• 51:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:07Dax Shepard?

  By the way, just can we take a second? Like, that's one of the worst feelings. Just even you describing it.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Mirror neurons are inspiring.

• 51:14Dax Shepard?

  And I think we all do. And that's why people are like, fuck it, I'll just be lonely.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  It's a little panicky feeling. Some people feel a great sense of responsibility in those moments to be the one to come up with the next thing. I think a lot of introverts are sort of like, it's not my job, but I'm hating this.

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:29Speaker 02

  I'm not going to fix it, but I feel it. This is the worst. Just having this mindset shift of, before you even get to that panicky lull type of thing, move, be more assertive about going to somewhere else.

• 51:41Dax Shepard?

  Don't be afraid to just drop an on sequitur.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, people go right with you.

• 51:45Dax Shepard?

  That's preferred to this long pause.

• 51:47Speaker 02

  Of course. I watched this amazing movie last night on the airplane.

• 51:51Dax Shepard?

  Which one?

• 51:51Speaker 02

  It was called We Live in Time.

• 51:54Speaker 01

  That sounds familiar.

• 51:54Speaker 02

  It's with Florence Pugh and Andrew Barfield.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Oh, that's right. Isn't it supposed to be so sad?

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I sobbed the whole way here.

• 52:01Dax Shepard?

  But you know, there's been social science work on this, on an airplane. Plane.

• 52:04Speaker 02

  It's worse.

• 52:05Dax Shepard?

  You have a heightened sense of vulnerability.

• 52:07Speaker 02

  I was alone and my husband wasn't there.

• 52:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes, your kids were gonna miss you.

• 52:10Speaker 01

  Also, this movie is supposed to be so sad.

• 52:13Speaker 02

  It was amazing.

• 52:14Dax Shepard?

  I loved.

• 52:15Speaker 02

  We're gonna get back to the movie, but the reason I raised it is because I did the thing we were talking about.

• 52:20Speaker 01

  I was about to say, I think you're doing it.

• 52:21Speaker 02

  I did the thing where you just start talking about something else.

• 52:25Dax Shepard?

  Oh, you just tricked us.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  With you, you guys, it's fun.

• 52:28Dax Shepard?

  Wow, you knew that?

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Monica knew.

• 52:30Dax Shepard?

  I don't know, you've been saying you know a lot of stuff that you don't actually know. So I feel like this is continuing the pattern you've already.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Welcome to my world.

• 52:38Dax Shepard?

  I knew, I knew. Then why'd you participate?

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Because I thought it'd be rude not to, because I'm a good conversationalist.

• 52:46Speaker 01

  But if you just start talking about something else.

• 52:48Dax Shepard?

  I feel betrayed.

• 52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, be careful who you're talking to.

• 52:52Dax Shepard?

  I feel manipulated. Now I don't trust you. And I'm scared. Now I'm gonna be dominant.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Go back to the movie for real. It's so good. It's so good. I sobbed so much.

• 53:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay, asking questions. This makes sense. I just wanna give a personal anecdote. And there's a big shout out to Scotty Johnson. So I met this boy early into LA. And everywhere we went, every single girl was in love with him. A, he was objectively cuter than all of us, that's for sure. But it was happening with guys and with girls and everyone. At first, I just chalked it up to he's magic. You can't really strive for that. You're magic or you're not. But at some point, I was like, this guy asks more questions than anyone I've ever met in my life. And I really made a mental note, oh, I wanna move through the world a lot more like Scotty. And I've gotta really up my game on asking questions. It's so powerful.

• 53:44Speaker 02

  Let me ask about Scotty.

• 53:45Dax Shepard?

  Now, I know you just did that.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  No, I didn't even do that on purpose.

• 53:49Speaker 01

  That one wasn't.

• 53:50Speaker 02

  It was so clear. It was clear. Monica's with me. Did he ask particularly good questions or was he just asking really anything?

• 53:58Dax Shepard?

  He had this ability to seem crazy interested in anything.

• 54:03Speaker 02

  And he probably was.

• 54:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, by the way, and this is a AA thing, acting your way into thinking different versus thinking your way into acting different. Something could feel fraudulent to you on the surface. But you might be shocked with repetition, how genuine it gets.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  This is a debate that we have in my class all the time because these students are coming to this class on conversation. I'm teaching them about the types of behaviors that tend to work, and then they try them with intentionality. And of course, through the whole thing, they're thinking, but isn't this manipulative? If I do this with intentionality and knowing that I'm doing it, doesn't that make it by definition inauthentic in some way?

• 54:40Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 54:40Speaker 02

  What's unique about conversation is maybe for a fleeting second, and you think to yourself, I should ask a question now, and then you do. In that moment, you're sort of nudging yourself to do it. But everything that comes after that is sincere.

• 54:54Dax Shepard?

  I'll also add, it's a reward center activity in that what'll shock you is people are more interesting than you thought they were. You can only discover that through asking them questions because they themselves aren't great at remembering the most exciting detail of their life to share with you at that moment, but you could inadvertently lead them. Yes, at first, you're doing it in a way that maybe is calculated, but then you're rewarded for it.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  And questions have that beautiful power. You get that reward almost instantly because they're going to tell you stuff. You're going to see what is interesting in their answer, and then you can keep asking more. In my class, we do an exercise called never-ending follow-ups.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 55:29Speaker 02

  It would be a pair like you. One person is the never-ending question-asker, the other person's just answering. And every time Monica talks, she has to end by asking a follow-up question.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 55:41Speaker 02

  And it sounds so extreme, but the experience of it is like Scotty. The experience of it is magic. You immediately move away from small talk. You start learning so much about the other person.

• 55:52Dax Shepard?

  It's funny what a nugget of wisdom improv artist stumbled upon because you even reference it in your book, using the improv rule of yes and, not no. Should we play this game? I feel like we should.

• 56:05Speaker 02

  Sure, but I'm nervous.

• 56:05Dax Shepard?

  I'll be the, do you want the switch?

• 56:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you're going to ask me a question?

• 56:09Dax Shepard?

  Where'd you get that switcher?

• 56:10Speaker 02

  Oh, I got it at Sarah Henler's studio. It's vintage.

• 56:14Dax Shepard?

  Do you go there a lot?

• 56:15Speaker 02

  The first time I've ever been was yesterday.

• 56:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, what took you so long to check it out?

• 56:18Speaker 02

  I guess I'm just busy. I'm busy.

• 56:21Dax Shepard?

  What are you busy doing?

• 56:22Speaker 02

  I work a lot. I have a busy job.

• 56:25Dax Shepard?

  What do you do?

• 56:25Speaker 02

  Have you heard of podcasts?

• 56:27Dax Shepard?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 56:28Speaker 02

  Oh, I'm not supposed to. That's where it ends.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  I gotta go.

• 56:35Dax Shepard?

  Fuck this. You're on your own, Toots. I don't like that sweater.

• 56:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, you did a good job.

• 56:45Dax Shepard?

  Thank you.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  But I felt scared.

• 56:47Dax Shepard?

  Do you want to try it?

• 56:48Speaker 01

  You guys, what are you doing? He started playing a character. You started asking questions you already knew the answer to. So part of this that matters is that you should do it as yourself.

• 56:58Dax Shepard?

  Well, I knew the answers to what she did for, but I didn't know that was her first time.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  You didn't know where I got my sweater.

• 57:03Dax Shepard?

  And I don't know why it took you so long. I would have thought you've been there a dozen times.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  You learned a lot very quickly.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 57:08Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  I guess you didn't learn that I was busy, but.

• 57:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  Because you already know that. We've got to reverse it. I'm so scared. Okay, what should I ask? Well, I want to ask a serious question.

• 57:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 57:19Speaker 01

  Can I?

• 57:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 57:20Speaker 01

  You're working on a personal project. It's been taxing and I want to know how you're doing.

• 57:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm still in the middle of it, so I don't know how I'm doing.

• 57:28Speaker 01

  If you do a scale of one to 10, 10 being the most relief and one being agony, that's a weird scale.

• 57:36Dax Shepard?

  I would say four.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  And are you doing anything to help balance it out?

• 57:40Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, cutting my hair compulsively and I am exercising compulsively and I'm trying not to blow my nose, which is new.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Can you tell me more about why you stopped blowing your nose?

• 57:52Dax Shepard?

  I got convinced that I don't actually have allergies, that I've just injured my nose from blowing it so hard and then it's sending white blood cells to repair it. And then that is not that I have to then blow really hard to get out. And then I'm just caught in this endless pattern of damaging and repairing. And I feel like I just have to stop for it to end.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  Are you an addict?

• 58:13Dax Shepard?

  Oh, like a motherfucker.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  That tracks.

• 58:20Speaker 01

  Okay, but I did know some of the answers.

• 58:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's hard.

• 58:24Speaker 01

  We talk a lot.

• 58:25Dax Shepard?

  Where did you get your pants?

• 58:26Speaker 01

  I got these at a local store near where I live.

• 58:29Dax Shepard?

  Okay, do you notice what all the other moms are doing? And do you feel like you pick up on like, I'm not sure what pants I'm supposed to be wearing, but somehow everyone knows. How do you pay attention and figure it out?

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I love fashion. I actually talk about this with some of my mom friends. As like a fashionista gets older, you get fewer and fewer touchpoints with people who are actually fashionable, which is alarming because you're like, oh no, I feel myself.

• 58:52Speaker 02

  Getting out of touch.

• 58:53Dax Shepard?

  And do you have to factor in your age?

• 58:56Speaker 02

  Yes. So I have hundreds of students who are in their twenties. So I get to observe that.

• 59:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 59:02Speaker 02

  I have fancy colleagues who are all ages and flavors of style. I then have all my community friends, cool parents. And then there's social media. So I'm like, am I following the right influencer accounts? Am I getting the right ads? Calculus for women deciding what to wear in different contexts they find themselves in is so complicated.

• 59:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so here's a calculated question I would ask. And I realize how I operate in thinking of this question, which is I would go if you taken too big of a swing.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  Oh, I try not to. So this is part of one of my goals. I used to go much harder when I was in my twenties. I wanted to get noticed. I wanted to be different. I wanted to be the one sort of setting the trend. As I've gotten older, I think it's more about not taking too big of a swing. I don't like that feeling.

• 59:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so you haven't like arrived at a restaurant and been like, oh, boy, I went too young with this.

• 59:52Speaker 02

  No, I played a little safer, I would say. Even today, I was gonna wear like a hot pink sweater and at the last second I was like, black, thank you. Wait, you said you were afraid to ask that?

• 1:00:01Dax Shepard?

  No, no, no. So I know that the kind of questions I ask, I want to get to a time you got embarrassed.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:00:09Dax Shepard?

  Because that's vulnerable.

• 1:00:10Speaker 02

  Well, you were doing it to me. I didn't even realize you were doing it to me. You thought this was a random conversation? Asking me. That's so fun.

• 1:00:18Dax Shepard?

  But I want to get to the point, because I think what's very bonding in a fast pass is soon as we can get vulnerable. So if I can get to the point where you went too far.

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  This is something I am always working on in myself about conversation is more quickly revealing my vulnerability, my mistakes, my failures, my moments of embarrassment and shame. I'm so hungry to get it out of other people and probably too slow to share it with others.

• 1:00:46Dax Shepard?

  To me, it's such a fast pass. Like, oh, great, we're both now laughing at the time. I tried to wear combat boots and you tried to wear this. We've just broken through a layer and now I can kind of live here.

• 1:00:57Speaker 02

  I have that too, but sometimes it can backfire in a dating. I mean, even the question I asked you was a

• 1:01:02Speaker 01

  Immediately vulnerable. I do tend to do that even on early dates because I want to know for myself, what's going on with this person? How introspective are they? How interesting are they? And so I'm like, tell me about your trauma.

• 1:01:17Speaker 02

  And what do you, what do you, how do they respond that you think that's not good? They're guarded, they feel threatened?

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  They often do it and that's lovely. But then if I then don't want to go on another date.

• 1:01:28Speaker 02

  Oh, now you know.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  I feel guilty because I've now put them in a position to be very vulnerable and maybe say things.

• 1:01:36Speaker 02

  Feel worse because you actually know them.

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  Well, that's another bad thing, but I feel sort of manipulative. I put you in a position to be vulnerable. You were.

• 1:01:44Dax Shepard?

  You trusted me and then I deserted you.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  And then I'm like, bye.

• 1:01:47Speaker 02

  Me with your heart and I stomped on it. The reframe of that is that you actually gave it a chance. Nobody needs to waste their time small talking with people.

• 1:01:54Dax Shepard?

  We're getting so off topic, but this is really interesting. I think when I have to do my own sexual inventory, as you have to do in AA, and I think about times I've been irresponsible or not. I think what I underestimated sometimes is it came very easy and natural for me to have those kind of conversations with women. And for a lot of those women, it was such a unique thing. They had only experienced with someone they were deeply in love with. And I do think it was quite misleading at times to women, which I fear in their reflection felt like manipulation or something. But it's just kind of how I am.

• 1:02:31Speaker 02

  You're a sharer.

• 1:02:32Dax Shepard?

  Yes, and I think it fast forwarded. It's kind of like this thing we learned about in England where the GIs got all these English girls pregnant. Americans kiss really quick. English don't kiss for a long time. They jumped ahead 10 steps.

• 1:02:44Speaker 02

  This is verbal kissing. This is you sharing something vulnerable.

• 1:02:47Dax Shepard?

  A lot of people will associate that with a very unique kind of relationship they've only had once and it was love.

• 1:02:52Speaker 02

  There are people though, every relationship in their life is like this and they want nothing else. Myself included.

• 1:02:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, same.

• 1:02:59Speaker 02

  I have a colleague at Harvard named Leslie John, who's writing a book called Reveal. And it's all about this conundrum of the spectrum from full opacity where you share nothing to full transparency. If you could download the full contents of your brain. And give it to somebody else as a gift. We're making these choices constantly of how much do we share of ourselves? And what consequences come from it? Closeness and skipping ahead and accelerating a relationship development is one of the pros. One of the downsides is it really does make you more vulnerable to heartbreak or exploitation, essentially.

• 1:03:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Dax Shepard?

  I have this in male friendships a lot, too. And this runs the risk of sounding arrogant, but I have observed it and it's real, which is a lot of guys are comfortable telling me things they generally won't tell other guys, which is an incredible privilege and it's beautiful. But I may be the only person they do that with. And so I'm kind of their best friend. And then maybe they could feel hurt because I don't have a capacity for 150 best friends.

• 1:03:57Speaker 02

  I think about this all the time. One of the downsides of getting really good at conversation is that you don't actually have the bandwidth to be the best friend, the best boss, the best colleague to a thousand people. And it's such a first world problem. If you really work on this skill and people are willing to trust you and share with you and love being with you, the problem then becomes that person actually doesn't have the time and energy to fulfill that role all the time to that many people.

• 1:04:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I don't see the future solution being I'm less connected in a safe place to chat. It's that I think there's more options for those people to have that experience with multiple people. That's the positive future is that there's a lot more dudes that are willing to chat about that stuff. I'm gonna send them your book. Okay, so asking questions, we got that. But I do want to ask what a boomer ask is. By myself, I'm shriveling with embarrassment.

• 1:04:53Speaker 02

  It is not about boomers. Let me say that first of all. It is about humans of all ages and it's named after a boomerang. So it's when I ask you a question. So if I say to you, Monica, how was your weekend?

• 1:05:03Speaker 01

  It was relaxing. How was yours?

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  Let me tell you about my weekend.

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  Oh, you're asking so that you can talk.

• 1:05:09Dax Shepard?

  It can be even more grotesque and direct. You can go like, have you ever been to Tibet?

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  Exactly, very specific.

• 1:05:16Dax Shepard?

  You ever been in a fight at Franklin and Highland?

• 1:05:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:05:21Dax Shepard?

  I'm clearly just trying.

• 1:05:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, so this is boomer asking because it's like a boomerang. You're throwing out the boomerang. You let them answer and then you bring it right back to yourself immediately.

• 1:05:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  People do it all the time.

• 1:05:32Dax Shepard?

  I do it. God, I hate that I do it. Do you do it, Monty?

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think probably everyone does it in certain circumstances. I did it today on the fact check, but that's a little tricky.

• 1:05:42Dax Shepard?

  Because it's a product.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  It's a product. And so weirdly, it's a mix of these.

• 1:05:46Dax Shepard?

  And then our feelings get hurt.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Well, no, no, no.

• 1:05:48Dax Shepard?

  Navigating.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  We've come in sometimes knowing I'm going to tell this story, knowing it will lead to a real conversation. I this morning was like, oh, my hand looks different. Oh, I'm going to bring that up on the fact check.

• 1:05:59Speaker 02

  Your hand looks different?

• 1:06:02Dax Shepard?

  It's a huge development.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  If you get a cut and then it's scars and then you're looking at your hand like, whose hand is this?

• 1:06:08Speaker 02

  You have a very lovely hand.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 1:06:10Dax Shepard?

  Useful, right?

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  They were better about a week ago. Thank you. But anyway, so I sat down and I said, have you ever had this experience? To start the conversation.

• 1:06:19Dax Shepard?

  You're open to hearing I've had a similar.

• 1:06:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did want to know the answer, but also I was like, we're going to talk about this now.

• 1:06:25Speaker 02

  It's all about the timing. So if you really want to hear about Dax's hand car experiences and he shares with you very openly, the important thing is follow up on his thing first.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  So it feels like you actually care because you do.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  Before we get back to your hand changing into a new hand.

• 1:06:43Speaker 01

  Luckily, he did not understand what I was talking about.

• 1:06:46Speaker 02

  Understand.

• 1:06:47Dax Shepard?

  You wonder what's better. Come out and tell the story you want to tell.

• 1:06:51Speaker 02

  So we study that exactly.

• 1:06:53Dax Shepard?

  Oh, tell me.

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  So we randomly assign people to either start with a question, let someone answer and then tell a story or just tell the story. Just telling the story is better. Whether you're bragging, whether you're complaining or whether you're just saying something weird and neutral.

• 1:07:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  Like, oh, I think my hand morphed into a different hand. It's better to just share it, which then may trigger reciprocity. That's the hope.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:14Speaker 02

  But you don't have control over that. But you're going to get the satisfaction of sharing whatever the thing you're dying to share. And you hope that the person you're talking to is actually interested in ask about it or share about themselves.

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, interesting.

• 1:07:25Dax Shepard?

  What's a gotcha question?

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  That's almost a gotcha question unto itself. It's not, it's not, it's not. A gotcha question is really in the eye of the receiver. If the person feels like you're testing them.

• 1:07:37Dax Shepard?

  Or leading them.

• 1:07:38Speaker 02

  Leading them, making them feel like you want to prove how incompetent they are, that they're a liar, expose them as a fraud. So if I were to say, Dax, you said that you were an actor. Are you acting in anything right now?

• 1:07:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:07:53Speaker 02

  Like, what the hell? You could do it for fun. If we're best friends and I want to tease you, that's a really funny way to do it. If we're not, and that's a legitimate question, what an asshole.

• 1:08:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  That's a really quick way to make someone feel really bad.

• 1:08:07Dax Shepard?

  Allison, you can't imagine how many people who only know me from acting will see me at the airport and they'll go, what do you got coming out? And then I go, I have a podcast and they don't have any sense that it's successful.

• 1:08:20Speaker 02

  They are really asking though, are they?

• 1:08:22Dax Shepard?

  They feel so bad. The nice thing is, what they're really saying is, I like watching you.

• 1:08:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:27Dax Shepard?

  I want to keep my eyes out for something you're in. But when I say I'm busy doing a podcast instead of acting.

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  They get upset?

• 1:08:34Dax Shepard?

  I think they feel really bad for me.

• 1:08:36Speaker 02

  No, I'm reading you as you're asking me this to embarrass me, to exploit me, to make me look bad. But it's a gotcha question. The same question lobbed from someone who doesn't actually know the answer and really cares about you.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, just wants to know.

• 1:08:49Speaker 02

  It's great. The importance is like sort of caring intention.

• 1:08:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:55Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:09:02Dax Shepard?

  We are supported by Walden University. You know that feeling when you've been thinking about making a move, going after the degree, the promotion, the thing you keep telling yourself you'll get to someday? Walden University is built for that moment. For over 50 years, Walden has helped working professionals get the W, the knowledge, the skills and the confidence to create real change in their careers and communities. Their programs are designed around your life, not the other way around. With Tempo Learning, available in select programs, there are no rigid schedules or set weekly deadlines. You move at your own pace. And Walden's faculty aren't just academics. They're practitioners who bring real world experience into everything they teach.

• 1:09:45Dax Shepard?

  From your first class to career coaching and beyond, Walden is your partner the whole way. Take the first step and learn at a pace that works for you. Visit walden.edu. Walden University. Set a course for change. Certified to operate by CHEV. We get support by Peloton. You know that feeling when you're spiraling over a problem and you just can't figure it out? When that happens to me, I need a change of pace. And I've found that running is the best way. It takes my brain out of the driver's seat and I come back with a fresh perspective. Running can be freeing and cathartic and Peloton helps you feel all of that. And now that feeling fits wherever you need it with the new Peloton Tread Flex.

• 1:10:28Dax Shepard?

  It's movable and foldable, designed to fit your life. So next time you feel stuck, you can go for a run literally anywhere. Whether that's in your office, living room, or even the attic. Plus, they have classes with expert instructors and programs to meet you at any level and keep you moving. Let yourself run. Explore the new Peloton Tread Flex at onepeloton.com.

• 1:10:57Dax Shepard?

  Okay, let's get to levity, probably my favorite part. I could see where people wouldn't prioritize levity.

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  Can I give you guys a compliment?

• 1:11:05Dax Shepard?

  Oh, please.

• 1:11:06Speaker 02

  Which is a levity move?

• 1:11:07Speaker 01

  Oh, she's doing it.

• 1:11:08Speaker 02

  Really, I think the reason that this podcast and you guys are so great is because you're so good at balancing gravity and levity. It's almost the whole mission of the conversations you have is you want to have stuff you take seriously and you take learning seriously. You take issues and topics seriously and all the way along, you want it to be fun.

• 1:11:26Speaker 01

  Very nice compliment.

• 1:11:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  You accomplished the mission.

• 1:11:30Speaker 01

  I agree that that's the mission.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  Do you disagree that that's the mission?

• 1:11:33Dax Shepard?

  No, I was trying to do a really thorough and honest assessment of the motive behind that.

• 1:11:38Speaker 02

  My motive?

• 1:11:39Dax Shepard?

  Mine.

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  Oh, let's assess why.

• 1:11:41Dax Shepard?

  I think the thing that might be truest under all of it is it is my. Tool to both let go of power and maintain power. By being vulnerable and honest, I'm giving away my power and I'm scared. But I always have the skill set to steer the reaction if necessary. I do think it's my way of controlling how vulnerable I'll be.

• 1:12:06Speaker 02

  So we've done research on the relationship between humor and power.

• 1:12:10Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:12:10Speaker 02

  Even one joke or one moment where you make other people laugh in a conversation means you're much more likely to be voted as the leader of the group.

• 1:12:19Dax Shepard?

  Wow.

• 1:12:19Speaker 02

  So I think often when we think of levity or humor, we have a tendency to think of it as like this bonus, this extra sparkly thing that might happen sometimes, and that's nice. When you actually study the psychology of humor and levity in conversation and its relationship with status and power, the core determinant of the status hierarchy. So I think your sense of I'm doing this to reclaim power and control is legitimate.

• 1:12:41Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because when I tell you something that's very revealing, I get immediately scared, as I think most people do.

• 1:12:48Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:12:48Dax Shepard?

  And it's broader than this room. So my mind can't help but imagine however a million people take the thing I just said. And then I can take the legs out from it if I want to at any moment.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  And it's this little micro moment of power because you're like, I know I'm going to say this thing and I'm pretty sure you're going to laugh. Just even that power over somebody to evoke that emotional response in that moment is tremendous. And it signals something about you that you have the competence, the wherewithal, the dominance to make that happen again in the future. And people read that as a very core competency.

• 1:13:21Dax Shepard?

  It's really interesting. I also think it enables you to take big swings because you can neutralize it. I think of Jess. Jess is very, very funny. He's also very, very provocative. So he's saying really provocative things. And if they go sideways, he's great at acknowledging they went sideways to then release the pressure.

• 1:13:38Speaker 02

  A lot of funny people do this. It's a recovery thing. I'm here all night. That was the joke.

• 1:13:42Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:13:43Speaker 02

  Right. The recovery of like, well, at least I tried. So in this same research where we're studying humor and power, what we found is even when jokes totally flop, people don't laugh, they think they're inappropriate, they don't think they're funny, you still get a boost in how people perceive your. Confidence because you were at least confident enough to try.

• 1:14:00Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 02

  And even that is admirable.

• 1:14:04Dax Shepard?

  Okay, kindness, and this is where we really get into listening. I feel like this overlaps a bit with asking questions. But why does it deserve its own category?

• 1:14:12Speaker 02

  Moment to moment, when people are talking to each other, when they're walking through the world, what are kind people thinking about? And what are they saying to other people? I was like, the psychologist so curious to try and figure that out. And I think we've come up with some pretty concrete answers of what people who are prioritizing other people's needs more frequently than others. These are kind people and they do some predictable things during conversation. More respectful language that makes people feel worthy and seen and known and understood.

• 1:14:44Dax Shepard?

  Could you give me an example of respectful language?

• 1:14:47Speaker 02

  Using people's names is a good start. I think you're worthy of even knowing who you are, just as a starting place. Think of how many conversations you've had where you didn't know someone's name. It's a very uneasy feeling.

• 1:14:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 02

  Because you can't give them that respect. How can I show you that I care about you and respect you if I don't even know your name? That's a weird feeling. Let's slap on name tags, guys.

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Just as a start, that's such a basic thing. But every little linguistic choice you make is an opportunity to show respect or not. Positive language is more respectful than negative. It shows people that you like being with them. Literally things like, great, good, awesome, cool, love that. As opposed to negative language that's like, no, uh-uh, hmm, that sucks. That makes you feel like you're not enjoying being with me. And then making people feel like they're worthy of your time and attention, which then ties into listening. So when we think about listening, there's decades of work on active listening, which is mostly nonverbal cue, like nodding, smiling, leaning forward. In our more recent research on listening, what we find is great conversationalists use their words to show people that they've heard them. Those can't be faked.

• 1:15:52Speaker 02

  So if you're sitting on Zoom, you can be like smiling and nodding, but you're off to the side, making a grocery list or texting your friends. What you can't fake are things like follow up questions, callbacks, which is your ding ding ding, I think.

• 1:16:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love a ding ding ding.

• 1:16:05Speaker 02

  Can't fake a ding ding ding if you didn't hear it. The first time paraphrasing what other people have said, repeating back to them what they've said, my understanding you right. There's another piece of kindness that we haven't talked about yet, which is receptiveness to opposing viewpoints. So when you confront a moment of difficulty where you really disagree, many of these same skills, the listening with your words and validating people, that's when it becomes especially important and especially hard to do. Imagine you hate people who had affairs and in that moment, your friend says, I'm having an affair. And in that moment, what a good conversationalist would do would be, I hear that you're saying you had an affair. It makes so much sense that you're feeling upset about that. Let's consider for a second why this is a bad decision. So before you go on to

• 1:16:50Speaker 02

  disagree with them, you have to do that hard work of validating them. And almost everyone skips

• 1:16:56Dax Shepard?

  My thing was like, you're not a terrible flawed person. You're not broken. You did something a lot of people do. And we got to make sure you wake up with your family for the rest of your life. How do we get there?

• 1:17:06Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's so interesting, this whole topic, because I feel like we think about it a lot. I don't know if I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this, but for people who are neurodivergent, like the show everyone loved. Love on the Spectrum. I love that show. I didn't watch it. Everyone loved it. There was a lot of this, teaching how to have conversations and active listening, all these tools.

• 1:17:25Dax Shepard?

  Eye contact.

• 1:17:26Speaker 02

  Yes. It's so lovely to see that in practice, but it's also kind of arrogant of neurotypical people who are watching and they're like, yeah, they don't know how to do that. Nobody's doing it all. No one's doing it right. I love watching that show. Actually, one of the tactics most helpful on that show, they have these really lovely coaches who come in before their dates and they have them brainstorm topics ahead of time. And I'm like, yeah, everybody needs to be doing that.

• 1:17:50Dax Shepard?

  Neurotypical neurodivergent is a false dichotomy in and of itself. This binary notion, we're all on this weird spectrum with varying degrees of adeptness.

• 1:18:01Speaker 02

  In all different vectors, in all different directions.

• 1:18:04Dax Shepard?

  There are people who are not neurodivergent, who are very uncomfortable with eye contact. I talk to them all the time. There are any number of things that they might be struggling with. They don't go to fucking dates with topics. They're just gonna let their neurotypicalness take over.

• 1:18:17Speaker 02

  Correct.

• 1:18:18Dax Shepard?

  Okay, now, when you get into a group conversation, it gets more complicated. That seems pretty obvious. But I did want to talk specifically about the status hierarchy effect of a group chat and how it changes within conversations.

• 1:18:31Speaker 02

  I think to some people, it's not obvious how much more difficult groups are than dyads, than one-on-one, because it feels like you're doing the same task. You're talking, you're listening, you're with other people. It's clear that it's harder to coordinate, but I don't think we realize how much harder. Even here, this whole time, I'm toggling my eye gaze between both of you. Monica's so patient, she's such a good listener. And we're all doing this calculus that's quite a bit different than if it were just me and Monica, or just me and Dax together. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, everything changes. Someone can sit there, be part of the conversation, and never talk. That's different than one-on-one, where you have to go back and forth. And so I think people don't realize that as group size grows,

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  the coordination challenges of all conversations grow exponentially. Every person in the group has a unique shared reality, a unique relationship. What's boring to Dax might be really exciting to me and Monica. So all of those little micro decisions get even more fraught. And one of the things that we have to navigate is status differences. As people get thrown into the mix, every group has an inherent status hierarchy. So the status hierarchy is determined by all kinds of things. Sometimes it's a formal hierarchy, like in an organization, there's a boss, or on an army battalion, there's the leader.

• 1:19:48Dax Shepard?

  A lot of these companies have levels.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Sometimes it's age, sometimes it's level of wealth, sometimes it's expertise, but it's other things, gender, it's race. It's all of these things that our minds are doing this calculation of who has the most power here, who has the most liking and respect, who's the most influential. And we do this internal sort of ranking in a group. And it affects all the ways that people behave. We tend to look at people who have high status. When they're speaking, they speak more, so you look at them. But also, when they're not speaking, we look to see their emotional reactions, because they determine the norms. Like, are they surprised by this? Are they pissed about this? Should I be pissed about this? Which makes lower-status group members feel invisible. You're literally not looking at them as much. And less welcome to contribute. The revelation that we've sort of realized by studying conversations at the topic level.

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  As you move from one thing to another, the status hierarchy shifts from one topic to the next.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:20:40Speaker 02

  We start talking about fashion.

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:43Speaker 02

  All of a sudden, I am not going to be looking at Dax as much. I'm going to be deferring to Monica, who's super cool. Yeah, I forgot to give you my gift. In a little bit.

• 1:20:53Dax Shepard?

  If you're good.

• 1:20:54Speaker 02

  If you're good, if you behave yourself. But if we switch to a new topic on which I have the most expertise, things are going to change. Imagine there's five other people here who have all different expertise and levels of status. So it's shifting dynamically as we move from one topic to the next. It's not like you go to a work meeting and the boss guy is always top dog. Imagine you land on a topic where all of a sudden, low woman on the totem pole has all the value to add. She better feel safe and included enough and welcome to speak when you get to that topic.

• 1:21:25Dax Shepard?

  You probably don't want to be ensnared in this, but I can't resist right now. I constantly talk about this. I think status is what we are most conscious of at all times. I think it is driving so much of everything. I think it's just baked into being a social primate. I don't think it's escapable. I think there's a lot of young people who think the solution to this is the eradication of status.

• 1:21:49Speaker 02

  You can, it's how our brains are built.

• 1:21:50Dax Shepard?

  Even these movements, I see like main character energy versus supporting cas. All the movement is to get rid of status. And to me, it's just like saying, let's get rid of being bipedal and walk on all fours. We have to acknowledge it's there, accept that it's there and figure out how to navigate it best. But the notion of obliterating status.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  Eradication is not the right goal. The goal instead, the sort of reframe is when you are in that high status position, what can you do to lift other people up? When you're in the low status role and you're marginalized, what can you possibly do to cope with a very difficult position that you're in?

• 1:22:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it sucks.

• 1:22:26Speaker 02

  It sucks. You have a narrower range of things that you're allowed to say that will be seen as appropriate or as a value add. So then you're less likely to speak. And if you never speak, you're not actually bringing value. Nobody ever gets to know you and what you can do. It's this crazy double by. Our job is to try and learn as much as we can about each other, regardless of status, but you can't eradicate it. It's what we're built to do. And status striving, right? We all want to ascend and maintain.

• 1:22:52Dax Shepard?

  Whether we're conscious of it, it means more food and safety.

• 1:22:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, food and safety and attraction and reproduction.

• 1:22:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna jump to apologies. And I gotta give credit to AA. There's a few things that it forced me to do. I had to embrace the dogma. My favorite thing is the four step. I've talked about it here before, learning to actually take an inventory of how you feel and what fears are being triggered. That's been so incredible to understand. But being forced to say apologies, make amends, and then getting the experience of delivering some of those and finding out the reactions, not at all what you're afraid it'll be. I don't know how anyone else learns that unless they're in a program that demands it. As the 10 step, we have to do that daily. It's not just, oh, what you accumulated as an addict.

• 1:23:39Dax Shepard?

  It's like daily, how is my behavior maybe impacted someone negatively? And I have an obligation to clean that up. Because if I don't clean that up, I will lose self-esteem and hate myself and I will use. So it's imperative. And through practicing this for 20 years, a few truths have emerged. One is it's never goes bad like you think it's gonna. And then what you realize immediately is like, oh, no one's getting apologized to.

• 1:24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:24:02Dax Shepard?

  Because the reaction to most people I make amends to or apologize to is shock.

• 1:24:06Speaker 02

  When you say that people's reactions are sometimes not what you expect, in what direction are the reactions surprising or have been surprising?

• 1:24:13Dax Shepard?

  Almost unanimously, understanding, comforting, and touch that you did care. I think what people want to know is that you acknowledge that was hurtful and that you're not someone that is disposable, that they don't worry, that they've upset.

• 1:24:30Speaker 02

  Can I tell you who I talked to about this?

• 1:24:32Dax Shepard?

  Please.

• 1:24:32Speaker 02

  Orna.

• 1:24:35Speaker 01

  You hang out with Orna?

• 1:24:37Speaker 02

  Guralnick from Couples Therapy.

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  We're obsessed.

• 1:24:40Speaker 02

  So this chapter on apologies opens with the story from Couples Therapy, one of the couples on the show.

• 1:24:45Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 1:24:46Speaker 02

  Tashira and Drew. They're from, I think, season one or two. They're amazing. She got pregnant and they started living together. They were in a really rocky place. I think it was in the pandemic phase of the show-ish.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:59Dax Shepard?

  And he would bounce back to moms a lot.

• 1:25:01Speaker 02

  Yes, and they didn't sleep in the same room, which is fine for those of you who don't go to sleep, it's fine. But they were in a really rocky place. I thought that they were not going to end up together. And then you follow them through their therapy. And by the end, one of the things that they got so good at is apologizing to each other. They're not snipping at each other anymore. They're not like chewing on their resentments. And so I talked to Orna about it, what she thinks of apologies broadly and in the context of this couple in particular. And she was like, here's what apologies do. Two things. One, they show someone that you understand them, that you understand that there was harm to you. And maybe it was at your hands, maybe it wasn't. But it shows that you understand them and that you are taking some responsibility, that you care that they've been harmed and that you want to be part of the solution.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  She said, if you can show those two things, that you understand someone and you're taking accountability, if you can do that without apologizing, you don't have to apologize. However, apologies are the best shortcut that we have to do those two things in a sincere and really meaningful way. I really think they're the most powerful thing we have in our conversational toolkit.

• 1:26:06Dax Shepard?

  My kids are great at it. Maybe the thing I'm most proud of my children.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  I said the same thing in the book. I wrote a little story about my oldest Kevin. It was honestly the most rewarding moment, I think, ever as a parent.

• 1:26:17Dax Shepard?

  What did he apologize about?

• 1:26:19Speaker 02

  Oh, it's a doozy. He was a heck of a toddler. He was like a biter hitter. He used to headbutt. He has all these big ideas and he was a late talker. He was so frustrated. He couldn't express them.

• 1:26:30Dax Shepard?

  Because boys are dumb.

• 1:26:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:31Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:33Speaker 02

  So he was having a tantrum and I picked him up and he flung his head back and he broke my nose. You can see it's like a little crooked. It's okay. I know I still look great. It's a little crooked. It's fine.

• 1:26:44Dax Shepard?

  You're finally different from Sam.

• 1:26:46Speaker 02

  Exactly. It's a crooked nose one.

• 1:26:49Dax Shepard?

  You're welcome. Not an apology.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  He had to be maybe three at the time. It was so enraging for all the reasons. I still hadn't taught him to be the kind of person who wouldn't hurt someone like that. He also was three, so he didn't really care. A hard mothering phase. Fast forward, he's now nine, turning 10. Maybe it was around when he was seven, he was reading Diary of a Wimpy Kid. And the main character Greg Heffley, we were reading together and Greg Heffley apologized to Rowley, which is his best friend, which was rare. He's kind of usually like a jerk to his best friend. And Kevin paused and in that moment turned to me and he was like, Mom, remember when I broke your nose when I was like a toddler? And I say, Yeah, it wasn't great.

• 1:27:30Dax Shepard?

  I won't ever forget it, Kevin.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  I will never forget. Thank you for the reminder. Now that I'm staring back at me in the mirror every day. He looked at my eyes and he goes, I'm so sorry.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:27:41Speaker 02

  It was so beautiful. I couldn't believe that occurred to him.

• 1:27:44Dax Shepard?

  It's more powerful than I love you in a lot of ways.

• 1:27:47Speaker 02

  More powerful because it's harder to do, harder to say.

• 1:27:50Dax Shepard?

  It is the action of loving someone, not just the words.

• 1:27:54Speaker 02

  You're right. You are doing an action by apologizing that is harder and more vulnerable to do. It is the action of love rather than just saying it.

• 1:28:02Dax Shepard?

  I know how hard it is for me and they just did that. They fucking love me.

• 1:28:06Speaker 02

  They're also saying in that moment, I'm saying this to you because I want to have a relationship with you in the future. Because I want you to see me as the kind of person that deserves being in a relationship with, and I want to be with you. And my standards for us are high. Let's get back there.

• 1:28:22Dax Shepard?

  It's fucking awesome. It's so hard and I wish people could just practice. Monica would say, I've gone too far. This is one of my favorite stories. This house has been worked on for seven years, right? That's how long it took. And we lived here through lots of the construction and I had all my car chargers plugged into this one extension cord and I came out and guys were working, they were sawing and all my chargers were unplugged and I was late to bring the girls to school. There were a bunch of things had piled up and my reaction was, don't fucking unplug my shit. I fucking, there's an extension. Like I really lost it.

• 1:28:56Dax Shepard?

  And I drop the girls off and it's going, I'm like, oh, I feel terrible about this. These guys are working their asses off. I'm an entitled, rich person. How ugly of me. I've gotta say sorry. Come back. And I'm like, guys, guys, there's like nine or 10 guys working. I just wanna say I'm really sorry about how I talked to you guys. None of you deserve that. I know you're working really hard and I'm so sorry. And what was funny is this apology went on long enough that I did recognize, oh, this is more painful than the shouting. This like male on male vulnerability is actually making them wanna throw up more than the yelling. So then I was like, I gotta make sure my apologies are serving the people I'm trying to apologize.

• 1:29:39Speaker 02

  But this is the crux of kindness always is figuring out what other people need. Do they need to hear the apology? Most of the time, the answer is yes.

• 1:29:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:48Speaker 02

  And every once in a while, if you're apologizing like nine times for the same thing, you're gonna start just reminding the person of the thing that happened that wasn't good. There is a tipping point where it becomes too much.

• 1:30:00Speaker 01

  Or you just start feeling like, well, that means nothing. Cause I'm hearing this all the time and nothing's changing.

• 1:30:06Speaker 02

  There is not a single study of live conversation that shows that refusing to apologize or neglecting to apologize is better than apologizing. But the sort of tipping point is when your partner doesn't feel like it's sincere.

• 1:30:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:30:19Speaker 02

  Where you're not doing it well. You're saying like, I'm so sorry you feel that way. There's a lot of ways to give a bad apology. So you need to apologize frequently, but do it well.

• 1:30:28Dax Shepard?

  And really curb your behavior.

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  Don't just promise to change, actually change.

• 1:30:33Dax Shepard?

  I was gonna say, that's one upside of having to do a 10 step as well is that I'm sometimes on the verge of blowing it.

• 1:30:40Speaker 02

  Blowing sobriety, blowing relational.

• 1:30:42Dax Shepard?

  Yelling at somebody. And as I'm about to let it fly, I go, I'll be apologizing for this. So weirdly can curb your behavior too, if you're in a real habit of doing it.

• 1:30:51Speaker 02

  Because it's part of the healthy suite of skills that is gonna help you do the right thing to begin with. If you're able to anticipate, it's gonna be super hard for me to stonewall for a while, take space, come back, apologize, give them time, then they forgive me, then we move on. That process can be circumvented by not yelling in the first place.

• 1:31:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  But we're human. We're all gonna mess up. We're all gonna yell at people sometimes if they break your nose.

• 1:31:14Dax Shepard?

  You just hope you don't get physical when someone breaks your nose. That's about the best you can do.

• 1:31:18Speaker 02

  His name's Kevin, so I was like the mom from Home Alone. They're like, hi.

• 1:31:22Speaker 01

  I like plopped him down and ran away to look in the mirror. It's a damn shame.

• 1:31:26Dax Shepard?

  Well, Alison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. And I'm really jealous of everyone that gets to take your class.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  We do. How fun.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  You guys, thank you so much for having me.

• 1:31:40Dax Shepard?

  Oh, it's so fun.

• 1:31:42Speaker 02

  So helpful for so many people, I think.

• 1:31:45Dax Shepard?

  I want to interview Sarah now.

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  You should.

• 1:31:48Dax Shepard?

  I want to see how different she is.

• 1:31:51Speaker 01

  This is very exciting.

• 1:31:52Dax Shepard?

  I want them to both come in with the goal of tricking us.

• 1:31:55Speaker 01

  Are you Sarah?

• 1:31:56Speaker 02

  Maybe I am.

• 1:31:58Dax Shepard?

  It'd be like a sociopath we interview. You'll never know what's what.

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:32:03Speaker 02

  We did a twin trick in my class the first year I ever taught. I didn't tell anyone I had a twin. Saved it till the end of the semester. It was our day on deception and we dressed the same. And I went in and I did the normal milling with the students before. Then you go out to close the door, but Sarah came back in and she started the class and she just opened her arms and she was like, deception, what do we think? And she got the class having a discussion. They went on for like five minutes.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:32:29Speaker 02

  And at some point, a student raised his hand and he goes, I think we're being deceived right now.

• 1:32:33Dax Shepard?

  The Monica of the room.

• 1:32:35Speaker 02

  Monica of the room, the free cub of the room. I was like, I think we're being deceived. And so I ran in. It was like a standing ovation.

• 1:32:42Dax Shepard?

  This is my favorite movie, the Nolan movie.

• 1:32:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:32:46Dax Shepard?

  Prestige. I want to rewatch it.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  I want to rewatch it too.

• 1:32:50Speaker 02

  And it was a twin thing, wasn't it? And the end, that was the ultimate trick is it was a twin thing.

• 1:32:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you gotta live the routine.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. And you like loved one girl, but the girls were... Okay. All right. Alison, this has been a blast. I hope everyone checks out Talk. Please come again when you write another book.

• 1:33:08Speaker 02

  Thank you so much, you guys. You're awesome.

• 1:33:13Dax Shepard?

  Hi there. This is Hermium Hermium. If you like that, you're gonna love the fact check with Miss Monica. Oh, guess what? This is some hot goss.

• 1:33:21Speaker 01

  Okay, great.

• 1:33:21Dax Shepard?

  Kristen was at the doctor today and there's an anesthesiologist there. And the last time she met him, right before he gave her the local, he was behind her and she was face down. And he said, welcome, welcome, welcome, as he...

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:33:38Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So then this time, she was like, oh, I'll bring him a sweatshirt or a T-shirt or something. So she brought him something today. And he said... I need you to know that I was eliminated in the second round of taking Monica on a date.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 1:33:54Dax Shepard?

  Do you remember when you guys put out like a-

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  For Monica and Jess, season two?

• 1:33:58Dax Shepard?

  I guess.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  That's the only time we put anything out, but we didn't even get that far.

• 1:34:03Dax Shepard?

  Well, he submitted.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:34:07Dax Shepard?

  I know, an anesthesiologist?

• 1:34:10Speaker 01

  They're very wealthy.

• 1:34:11Dax Shepard?

  They are. That's supposed to be the highest starting salary in 1993 when I was in high school and looked it up.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 1:34:18Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  I feel sorry.

• 1:34:21Dax Shepard?

  You feel flattered and then you feel guilty that you feel flattered.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Well, I feel guilty that someone felt eliminated. We need to have her say, we need to have her clear things up.

• 1:34:32Dax Shepard?

  She's trying to fake an injury.

• 1:34:34Speaker 01

  Bring a new, a new item, like a mug and say-

• 1:34:38Dax Shepard?

  And people will be so concerned. Her shoulder hurts. Just that's not, she doesn't have any issue. I think when they hear anesthesia-

• 1:34:44Speaker 01

  That's fair.

• 1:34:45Dax Shepard?

  People will be off to the races. I find that flattering. Don't you think, do you think most people would be flattered to hear a doctor have the hots for him? We do that, right?

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  I'm attracted to that.

• 1:34:55Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, right. I'm susceptible to that.

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  I feel flustered.

• 1:34:59Dax Shepard?

  Okay, because there's this hot anesthesiologist.

• 1:35:02Speaker 01

  Is he married now? Because that was a while ago.

• 1:35:06Dax Shepard?

  Married and divorced.

• 1:35:08Speaker 01

  An old?

• 1:35:09Dax Shepard?

  Great. An old, yes. Fraud. And consummation.

• 1:35:13Speaker 01

  That's bad. Oh, that's good.

• 1:35:15Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yes, yes, yes. We should put out as in a prompt annulments.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  Great idea.

• 1:35:22Dax Shepard?

  Robbie, write it down.

• 1:35:24Speaker 01

  Write it down.

• 1:35:25Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, annulments.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Maybe he's a vulnerable boy.

• 1:35:29Dax Shepard?

  He's certainly a vulnerable boy. You wouldn't listen to this if you're a boy.

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:35:33Dax Shepard?

  And if you were not a vulnerable boy.

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  Unless you're a cookie boy.

• 1:35:36Dax Shepard?

  Cookie boy.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Speaking of-

• 1:35:37Dax Shepard?

  Oh, let's talk.

• 1:35:39Speaker 01

  We have- Big news. I mean, we've already discussed this before. We have new merch out.

• 1:35:44Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  And it's fun.

• 1:35:46Dax Shepard?

  It is. You want to hear something crazy?

• 1:35:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:48Dax Shepard?

  So one of, I was, I was thanking, and I just want to continue to thank the Arm Chariots who showed up in San Francisco. It really made the whole show. Uh, when I was leaving the theater, I took pictures with folks.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:35:58Dax Shepard?

  And a woman had our new T-shirt on.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Which one?

• 1:36:03Dax Shepard?

  The crow, the mouse, and the cherries.

• 1:36:06Speaker 01

  Oh, as a T.

• 1:36:07Dax Shepard?

  And I go, oh my God. I got so confused. I thought, are they already out? And she bought one? And I go, oh my God, you have one of the T-shirts. And she goes, it's, I know it's pirated. And I go, oh, that's okay. We're actually weirdly making that T-shirt now.

• 1:36:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:22Dax Shepard?

  So I saw it as like, it was a really good idea because here this person went on their own and made it.

• 1:36:27Speaker 01

  Great.

• 1:36:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. We have all of our limited sweatshirt designs on T-shirts.

• 1:36:34Dax Shepard?

  On T-shirts.

• 1:36:35Speaker 01

  Available. We have our own shop popping. We have a pop-up. We have a pop-up merch shop. That will be up until we have official merch with Wondery.

• 1:36:46Dax Shepard?

  Wondery and Amazon.

• 1:36:47Speaker 01

  And that's probably going to be at the end of March-ish. So until then, we have our pop-up merch that we made into our own.

• 1:36:56Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:36:56Speaker 01

  Um, and so get on there. There's, I'm really proud of a lot of the designs. I think they're really cute. So we have those tees.

• 1:37:05Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:37:05Speaker 01

  And then we have.

• 1:37:06Dax Shepard?

  So we have, well, the robot, welcome, welcome, welcome, Matt. And then we have Ballsack Cowboy?

• 1:37:11Speaker 01

  Yep. We have the, the cowboy on the mic.

• 1:37:15Dax Shepard?

  On the microphone.

• 1:37:16Speaker 01

  We have Duck Duck Goose.

• 1:37:18Dax Shepard?

  Uh-huh.

• 1:37:19Speaker 01

  And we have, um.

• 1:37:22Dax Shepard?

  Crow, cherries, and mouse.

• 1:37:24Speaker 01

  They're on tees now. And now, and we have two new tees. We have a Cookie Boy tee.

• 1:37:29Dax Shepard?

  Cookie Boy time.

• 1:37:30Speaker 01

  And a reverse back tee.

• 1:37:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. That's only for the pervious Arm Chariots out there because I think you are inviting some sexual attention if you're wearing a reverse back shirt.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  You might want that.

• 1:37:41Dax Shepard?

  I would, I'll be wearing one. Yeah.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's really cool looking, um, and, and chic and sleek. And we have a sweatshirt, two sweatshirts. Same design, but one is a hoodie, one is not, and.

• 1:37:55Dax Shepard?

  What's on the sweatshirt?

• 1:37:56Speaker 01

  It says A E. It has a crow on top of it and a cherry in its mouth and some cherries falling down the sleeve.

• 1:38:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, very cool. I'm gonna wear that sweatsuit too.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  I know, me too. I'm really excited for the sweatsuit. I'm gonna, I'm gonna go crew neck. That's my aesthetic. I'm not gonna go hoodie, but yeah.

• 1:38:15Dax Shepard?

  You have too much hair for a hoodie. Is that what?

• 1:38:17Speaker 01

  Maybe that's part of it. It gets caught up in there.

• 1:38:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  Although apparently hoodies are the most selling item.

• 1:38:23Dax Shepard?

  I love a hoodie, but I don't have long hair.

• 1:38:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:27Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, so just to be clear, we, we have, we have brokered this deal with Amazon, begged them to let us sell our own merch for a month, which means our turnaround is really quick. So go on order. There's gonna be a little bit of delay, but we have this window to sell for a month, basically. So.

• 1:38:43Speaker 01

  And it's cute.

• 1:38:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:44Speaker 01

  So get on that. That's, that's a good fun update.

• 1:38:48Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:38:48Speaker 01

  And, um.

• 1:38:50Dax Shepard?

  Everyone's happy but Carly.

• 1:38:52Speaker 01

  Should we give one to my new maybe boyfriend who's married and a null?

• 1:38:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes, for sure.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  And I wonder what, what do you think?

• 1:39:01Dax Shepard?

  Well, we hope reverse back, yeah.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  But Cookie Boy is so fun.

• 1:39:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, he had the confidence to wear a Cookie Boy shirt.

• 1:39:08Speaker 01

  Do you think it's, it's?

• 1:39:10Dax Shepard?

  I wouldn't wear a Cookie Boy shirt.

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:39:12Dax Shepard?

  No, it sounds to me like I'm advertising like.

• 1:39:15Speaker 01

  Eating out?

• 1:39:16Dax Shepard?

  Power bottom, like a Cake Boy.

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  I would expect you to wear it.

• 1:39:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  I would, I would have thought you would have worn it. Confident man will wear it.

• 1:39:26Dax Shepard?

  What if, hold on a second. This isn't fair.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  I think it is.

• 1:39:30Dax Shepard?

  What about a shirt that says Cake Boy? That's like, it feels like false advertising. Like I shouldn't wear a shirt that says Cake Boy.

• 1:39:36Speaker 01

  What is a Cookie Boy?

• 1:39:37Dax Shepard?

  Ask the computer what Cake Boy.

• 1:39:39Speaker 01

  No, a Cookie Boy.

• 1:39:40Dax Shepard?

  I don't know. I don't know.

• 1:39:43Speaker 01

  It's not.

• 1:39:43Dax Shepard?

  Rob, am I insane?

• 1:39:45Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know what Cake Boy means, but Cookie Boy, yeah, I probably wouldn't wear a Cookie Boy shirt either.

• 1:39:52Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:53Speaker 01

  Okay, well, I thought everyone said we wanted that as a shirt.

• 1:39:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes, because I want, our, we have 70% of the people, did you find out what Cake Boy means?

• 1:40:02Speaker 03

  Cake Boy is someone light and fluffy, effeminate, uh, not meaty. Yeah, that's what Urban Dictionary says.

• 1:40:10Speaker 01

  Doesn't mean gay. That can mean baby girl.

• 1:40:13Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:14Speaker 01

  Baby girls are straight.

• 1:40:14Dax Shepard?

  It's just always used in reference to gay guys.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:40:17Speaker 03

  It's saying metrosexual.

• 1:40:19Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:40:21Speaker 01

  Not gay.

• 1:40:22Speaker 03

  Feminine male. Yeah.

• 1:40:23Dax Shepard?

  A feminine male.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  A feminine male isn't gay necessarily. Like Timothy Chalamet is not gay. He's dating Kylie Jenner.

• 1:40:30Dax Shepard?

  Feminine.

• 1:40:31Speaker 03

  Uh, this Urban Dictionary says a soft feminine heterosexual male and the quote is Jerome ain't gay. He's a motherfucking cake boy.

• 1:40:39Dax Shepard?

  Okay, so Jerome's not gay. He's a motherfucking cake boy.

• 1:40:43Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Anyway.

• 1:40:46Dax Shepard?

  I, hold on a second. I don't wanna be, I don't want there to be any upsetness or hurt feelings about this.

• 1:40:52Speaker 01

  Well, there's not. You invented Cookie Boy.

• 1:40:55Dax Shepard?

  For you, yeah.

• 1:40:55Speaker 03

  This says a cake boy is someone that's confused for being gay, but it's really straight.

• 1:41:00Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:41:01Speaker 01

  I think we've had enough.

• 1:41:02Dax Shepard?

  Do you think in general, girls wanna be described as masculine?

• 1:41:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:41:07Dax Shepard?

  Cause that's a one to one. Do you boys wanna be described as feminine? I think not.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  Now I'm like, should we change up the color of the shirt?

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  I think it's more the phrase Cookie Boy than the color.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  No, but I'm saying if girls are gonna buy it.

• 1:41:21Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think you just make it straight for girls.

• 1:41:22Speaker 01

  Change it to like pink. Oh.

• 1:41:25Dax Shepard?

  Listen, don't worry.

• 1:41:26Speaker 01

  Just leave it. Just leave everything.

• 1:41:28Dax Shepard?

  Listen.

• 1:41:29Speaker 01

  Oh my God, I hate this new collection.

• 1:41:31Dax Shepard?

  Oh no!

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Don't buy it. Don't buy. I'm just kidding. It's fine. It's great. I'm excited to wear it. I'll wear it. Okay, anywho. I forgot what we were talking about.

• 1:41:42Dax Shepard?

  Let's reset. Let's re-ru. So we're having a very good time.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Merch.

• 1:41:47Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, merch is on.

• 1:41:48Speaker 01

  I just did a snot.

• 1:41:51Dax Shepard?

  All because this is, this is not.

• 1:41:53Speaker 01

  I've been fighting the reins so hard and here it is.

• 1:41:57Dax Shepard?

  Anything worth unraveling over.

• 1:41:59Speaker 01

  I thought it was cute.

• 1:42:01Dax Shepard?

  I think it's great.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Okay. There's a kind of masculine shirt on there too that I. Designed for you.

• 1:42:09Dax Shepard?

  It's okay. The vast majority of the people who order our stuff is women. I don't mind at all that we have a shirt that's skewing towards women. I'd probably even wear Cookie Boy on this show.

• 1:42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:21Dax Shepard?

  On camera, yeah.

• 1:42:22Speaker 01

  I think you should wear it on Kimmel.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, do it. Be the man we are. You are, you are Cookie Boy.

• 1:42:33Dax Shepard?

  Hold, hold on a second, man. I'm a lot of things.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:42:39Dax Shepard?

  I don't have to be like, I don't, I can.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  You are though. You're, you're, you're confident.

• 1:42:46Dax Shepard?

  I, but that doesn't mean I have to declare myself a Cake Boy.

• 1:42:49Speaker 01

  Don't make that the same thing.

• 1:42:51Dax Shepard?

  I think they are very similar. A Cookie Boy and a Cake Boy.

• 1:42:54Speaker 01

  Cookie Boy. Cookie Boy is, we invented that. That's a boy who loves cookies.

• 1:42:59Dax Shepard?

  No, it's a girl who loves cookies. It's you. That's what a Cookie Boy is.

• 1:43:05Speaker 01

  I think it started with Aaron or something. I forget how this started.

• 1:43:09Dax Shepard?

  You're the original, you're the OC, Original Cookie Boy. Okay, I'm a Lake Boy.

• 1:43:16Speaker 01

  That is not a cool shirt.

• 1:43:18Dax Shepard?

  Probably not.

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  I would be so attracted to a muscly, tall.

• 1:43:28Dax Shepard?

  Anesthesiologist.

• 1:43:29Speaker 01

  Anesthesiologist, wearing a Cookie Boy shirt. That boy is confident and I like it.

• 1:43:35Dax Shepard?

  Look, I wear pink and stuff with a lot of confidence. I'm trying to think what boy, yeah. Anywho.

• 1:43:40Speaker 01

  You wore that Gucci. That's.

• 1:43:43Dax Shepard?

  That's wild. Yeah.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  Flamboyant.

• 1:43:45Dax Shepard?

  It's flamboyant, for sure. Absolutely. It's totally flamboyant. And my pink is very feminine.

• 1:43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's funny. You like that mixed message.

• 1:43:54Dax Shepard?

  But would I wear a shirt that says bo- bottom? I hope, don't dismiss me so quickly.

• 1:44:01Speaker 01

  I'm not dismissing you. I'm just telling you that's not what Cookie Boy means.

• 1:44:05Dax Shepard?

  I'm, I don't know that anyone knows what Cookie Boy means.

• 1:44:09Speaker 01

  Including us.

• 1:44:10Dax Shepard?

  Including us, most importantly, us. And so I think a lot of people are gonna be wondering what that person's declaring about themselves.

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  And you don't think that about reverse back, which is interesting because that reverse back could easily be

• 1:44:26Dax Shepard?

  Gay?

• 1:44:27Speaker 01

  Anal, yeah.

• 1:44:29Dax Shepard?

  I hope, you know?

• 1:44:34Dax Shepard?

  I think it's just its proximity to Cake Boy.

• 1:44:36Speaker 01

  Alright.

• 1:44:37Dax Shepard?

  And Cake Boy's just a very known saying.

• 1:44:39Speaker 01

  I, okay.

• 1:44:39Dax Shepard?

  That you, I know you didn't know.

• 1:44:41Speaker 01

  I didn't know it.

• 1:44:41Speaker 03

  I didn't know it either.

• 1:44:42Dax Shepard?

  Rob didn't know it either, but the internet knew it.

• 1:44:44Speaker 01

  I think the millennials don't know it.

• 1:44:46Dax Shepard?

  They don't know Cake Boy?

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  I guess Gen X will probably not be, Gen X men will probably not be buying it. And boomers.

• 1:44:55Dax Shepard?

  Unless, again, like, if I were a bottom, I would totally wear a shirt that said bottom or power bottom or, cuz that's what I am. I can't wear a shirt that says queer on it.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:45:08Dax Shepard?

  It would be wrong of me. I'm not queer and I can't claim that.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 1:45:13Dax Shepard?

  And now we're just, we're on this continuum. I can't wear a shirt that says queer. I can't wear a shirt that says bottom. I shouldn't wear a shirt that says Cake Boy.

• 1:45:21Speaker 01

  I think you could, now that we know the definition, it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean you're declaring that you're gay when you're not and being a hypocrite. And the other one, what was after queer? Bottom. You could, and that would be interesting for people.

• 1:45:37Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:38Speaker 01

  Cuz maybe you are a bottom, even in your heterosexual sex.

• 1:45:43Dax Shepard?

  Meaning Kristen pegs me.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  Or you're on your back and she's on top.

• 1:45:49Dax Shepard?

  I don't think that would constitute a bottom.

• 1:45:51Speaker 01

  I, I mean, look. Definitions.

• 1:45:55Dax Shepard?

  Because the top is often on bottom and the bottom's on top.

• 1:46:00Speaker 01

  The top is.

• 1:46:00Dax Shepard?

  Riding.

• 1:46:02Speaker 03

  Bottoms usually receive penetration.

• 1:46:04Speaker 01

  Right, right. I know that in the homosexual community.

• 1:46:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, they can receive that penetration on top or bottom.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  You're still.

• 1:46:15Dax Shepard?

  So I'm saying I can't really be a bottom in Kristen and I's relationship, whether I'm in time and space on top or bottom. It would have to involve some penetration.

• 1:46:24Speaker 01

  He's technically on top, you're saying.

• 1:46:26Dax Shepard?

  Yes.

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Physically in.

• 1:46:28Dax Shepard?

  And the top's on bottom.

• 1:46:30Speaker 01

  But he is a bottom because he's getting penetrated.

• 1:46:32Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. So we could do a shirt.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  We all.

• 1:46:36Dax Shepard?

  That explains all this because maybe a lot of people are confused.

• 1:46:39Speaker 01

  No, thanks.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  Um, okay, now.

• 1:46:45Dax Shepard?

  We could call it top bottom and it's a bottom on top.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  Well, our, okay, the, look, not to make this even more complicated, but the, the masculine shirt is cherry on top.

• 1:46:55Speaker 03

  Which kind of looks like a butt.

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  So it, that also could be seen as sexual.

• 1:47:00Dax Shepard?

  Cherry on top sounds good sexually, though.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  Change it to cherry on bottom.

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  There's also a cowboy riding a penis on one of them.

• 1:47:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:16Dax Shepard?

  That's straight as hell. A cowboy riding an enormous.

• 1:47:22Speaker 01

  Anyone who wants to, oh, I see. You're making a joke.

• 1:47:26Dax Shepard?

  I'm making a joke.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:47:28Dax Shepard?

  I'm pointing out the hypocrisy.

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:47:30Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think people who are straight don't want to declare that they're gay. And I think gay people don't want to declare they're straight. And I don't think men who identify as men want to declare they're women.

• 1:47:39Speaker 01

  I don't think anyone needs to declare anything. It's a cutesy shirt with a little mouse on it.

• 1:47:45Dax Shepard?

  Yes, yes, yes. It is. It's an adorable shirt. I really like it.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  I think the deeper problem is we've decided that Cookie Boy means something that it doesn't.

• 1:47:54Dax Shepard?

  Again, I blame Cake Boy.

• 1:47:56Speaker 01

  Right. I mean, I don't, I don't know what to say. A cookie boy has nothing to do with sexual appetites.

• 1:48:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, let me ask you this. This is.

• 1:48:06Speaker 01

  It has to do with loving cookies.

• 1:48:08Dax Shepard?

  Right. So what if I made shirts that said, Tim boy?

• 1:48:11Speaker 01

  Tim boy.

• 1:48:12Dax Shepard?

  What do you think of? Be honest.

• 1:48:16Speaker 01

  A man named Tim?

• 1:48:17Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:48:18Speaker 01

  What, what does it mean?

• 1:48:20Dax Shepard?

  I would think tomboy.

• 1:48:22Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:48:23Dax Shepard?

  I think, oh, it's some other now version of tomboy, but now we're saying timboy.

• 1:48:27Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I'm not thinking that. That's a Gen X.

• 1:48:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  Gen X is really upset about words. I think, I think millennials aren't thinking like that. It's been Gen, Gen Z and COVID, COVID Gen, they're definitely not thinking about it.

• 1:48:46Dax Shepard?

  Do they have their own acronym now?

• 1:48:48Speaker 01

  I think they do.

• 1:48:49Dax Shepard?

  Gen C?

• 1:48:50Speaker 01

  I heard that once, but I think it's called maybe Gen Alpha or something.

• 1:48:54Dax Shepard?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:48:55Speaker 01

  Something like that.

• 1:48:56Dax Shepard?

  Uh, also my, my beef with gens now.

• 1:48:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:48:59Dax Shepard?

  I may have already heard this.

• 1:49:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:49:01Dax Shepard?

  It used to be like Gen X covers from nineteen sixty-eight to nineteen eighty-three or something. It's like this twenty year window, virtually.

• 1:49:09Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:10Dax Shepard?

  And there's been seven gens since Gen X. It's like you entitled, all you entitled millennials wanted your own generation every four years. I don't even know what I'm saying.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:23Dax Shepard?

  But, um, yeah, it's this increased uniqueness where they need their own gen. Every year they were born.

• 1:49:28Speaker 01

  I know, but I actually think theirs makes more sense because millennials have such, yeah, we have.

• 1:49:34Dax Shepard?

  That's a good argument.

• 1:49:35Speaker 01

  My brother's in my gen, that we are not in the same, we shouldn't be in the same gen.

• 1:49:40Dax Shepard?

  You don't think so?

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  No, he grew up with internet and phones and stuff. I got one in college or late high school. You know, it's just different.

• 1:49:52Dax Shepard?

  Maybe, um, maybe there's legitimate reason for.

• 1:49:56Speaker 01

  Breaking it up more.

• 1:49:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, because every two years the world's completely different.

• 1:50:00Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 1:50:01Dax Shepard?

  All right. Well, I'm learning a lot in this episode.

• 1:50:04Speaker 01

  Well, I guess I sort of have an update here, sort of.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:50:07Speaker 01

  Um.

• 1:50:07Dax Shepard?

  This is the matchmaker?

• 1:50:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I think I dropped, I dropped an album, uh, that the matchmaker entered my life again.

• 1:50:17Dax Shepard?

  With an option that you didn't make you feel sad about.

• 1:50:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. And we. Texted, we texted a little bit to, to make a ti- you know, make a date.

• 1:50:28Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  And.

• 1:50:29Dax Shepard?

  You and the candidate.

• 1:50:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:50:30Dax Shepard?

  Not the matchmaker.

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Correct. And so, but it was very just like logistics. There was like one, one cute exchange and then it was on to logistics.

• 1:50:40Dax Shepard?

  Right. Well, you guys sound both type A. He's got the funds to get a matchmaker.

• 1:50:45Speaker 01

  I guess so.

• 1:50:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 01

  So this was Saturday and, and he said, I have a bit, really busy week. What about next weekend? And I said, yeah, that should work. And he said, you're in blank, right? Well, it was feels and.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  But if I started getting very protective.

• 1:51:08Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  And I was like, yeah, and you're on the west side. And then he never responded.

• 1:51:14Dax Shepard?

  Again, he said he was on the west side?

• 1:51:16Speaker 01

  I said, I asked the question and you're on the west side, question mark.

• 1:51:20Dax Shepard?

  Ah.

• 1:51:20Speaker 01

  And that was Saturday.

• 1:51:22Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:51:23Speaker 01

  He didn't respond.

• 1:51:24Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 1:51:25Speaker 01

  And so I was like.

• 1:51:26Dax Shepard?

  He's been killed?

• 1:51:27Speaker 01

  Well, no, I was like, what happened? But.

• 1:51:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:29Speaker 01

  Okay, whatever. Who cares?

• 1:51:31Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  And then on Friday, he texted.

• 1:51:36Dax Shepard?

  Six days later.

• 1:51:36Speaker 01

  Uh huh. Six days later.

• 1:51:38Dax Shepard?

  Seven days, yeah.

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he said, hey, sorry, this got away from me. Um, are you still good for this weekend? And I was like, no.

• 1:51:49Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, good. Yeah, yeah, good for you. Yeah.

• 1:51:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:51:53Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:51:55Speaker 01

  I, then I felt like, oh, am I just being like, doing a normal, like, this is an out. Finding a way out, I guess.

• 1:52:04Dax Shepard?

  Things could be happening.

• 1:52:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:05Dax Shepard?

  Some of it could be that. What I like about no is I'm not gonna be playing along with this role as you as the boss. And you can call me in six days when you remembered.

• 1:52:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:17Dax Shepard?

  I won't, I won't participate in that.

• 1:52:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:19Dax Shepard?

  Go see me for six days, checking in going, we still good?

• 1:52:22Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's not for me.

• 1:52:24Dax Shepard?

  That's a, I would, if a, let's just say if a woman did that to me.

• 1:52:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:28Dax Shepard?

  I don't even know if I'd respond to the follow up in seven days.

• 1:52:32Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's interesting.

• 1:52:33Dax Shepard?

  But I do like that you said no.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  I said, and I, at first I was, I was like, gonna be pretty harsh.

• 1:52:40Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh, yeah.

• 1:52:40Speaker 01

  Um, and then I backed off and I just. Said, what did I say exactly? Let's see what I said.

• 1:52:46Dax Shepard?

  You left room for him to apologize.

• 1:52:48Speaker 01

  Kind of. I wanted to see how he would respond.

• 1:52:50Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:51Speaker 01

  Um, yeah. I said, you're on the west side? He said, hey, sorry, lost track of this. Yeah, I'm on the west side a week later.

• 1:52:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:52:58Speaker 01

  Are you still good with tomorrow? I said, hey, no problem. I made plans this weekend, but happy to try to schedule something again. And then he said, oh, okay, bummer. Well, we can try another time.

• 1:53:11Speaker 01

  That was it.

• 1:53:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:12Speaker 01

  And I said, yeah, for sure. I said, next week nights are pretty open for me other than this, and I didn't hear anything back. So it was interesting because I.

• 1:53:21Dax Shepard?

  So first of all, that was much nicer than I was expecting and I even nicer than I think he deserves.

• 1:53:27Speaker 01

  That's, yeah.

• 1:53:27Dax Shepard?

  I might have been really direct. No, you can't go to me for six days and then ask, are we still on tomorrow? That's not for me.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  That's.

• 1:53:35Dax Shepard?

  And then allow him to mount a real apology because he owes you an apology, not, hey, I lost track of this.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  Right. I agree. I agree. And that was my instinct, but then I thought, well, maybe whatever, like, I don't know him.

• 1:53:49Dax Shepard?

  Maybe he was in surgery for six days straight.

• 1:53:51Speaker 01

  I mean, I was just like, I don't, maybe I should give it another, like, offer up some other option, but.

• 1:54:00Dax Shepard?

  I'm impressed.

• 1:54:01Speaker 01

  Thank you. Well, for me, I kind of thought, oh, this person is used to that being fine.

• 1:54:08Dax Shepard?

  Sure. Yeah, that's one. That could also be it, but that would be like the least generous version, right?

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's kind of generous. It's like for him, women are happy to just go out with him when he's ready to go out with him. She said he's really hot and tall.

• 1:54:26Speaker 01

  So like, I don't know.

• 1:54:29Dax Shepard?

  All the more reason you gotta say.

• 1:54:31Speaker 01

  Well, I agree. Like, good for you if this has worked out for you in the past, but that is not.

• 1:54:37Dax Shepard?

  I would just want it to be a little more clear than, it's not that you just made plans.

• 1:54:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:54:41Dax Shepard?

  It's a no because you can't.

• 1:54:43Speaker 01

  Can't do that.

• 1:54:43Dax Shepard?

  You can't go seven days and then check in to see if we're still good for tomorrow.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:54:48Dax Shepard?

  That's not how I operate.

• 1:54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, but then I.

• 1:54:51Dax Shepard?

  And not even hurt feelings needy, just like, like, that's, that's a.

• 1:54:55Speaker 01

  I just didn't want to get into that, right? Then it's like, oh, sorry, or whatever he's gonna, I don't want to really have that interaction with someone I don't really know. Although I did, that was my instinct and I did ask for advice and. I guess it was, I got bad advice.

• 1:55:11Dax Shepard?

  Well, I don't think there's good or bad. This is a version.

• 1:55:14Speaker 01

  I don't know, but he didn't respond again. So like, I'm not seeing him, obviously.

• 1:55:21Speaker 01

  And, and that's two strikes. That's two strikes.

• 1:55:29Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, with the matchmaker.

• 1:55:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:55:33Dax Shepard?

  It's hard for me to not, I have to really fight being judgmental of someone that would be using a matchmaker.

• 1:55:43Speaker 01

  Well, I am.

• 1:55:44Dax Shepard?

  No, the man.

• 1:55:45Speaker 01

  Well.

• 1:55:46Dax Shepard?

  Because, yeah, why do I want to be ju- I wanna, I wanna say you can't farm out that activity. Like, you can't just pay your way into that. It feels like a call girl service a little bit.

• 1:55:58Speaker 01

  You don't think that about the apps, but I guess you're the one scrolling.

• 1:56:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, these are just both mutually looking around and hoping to find somebody, I guess. But there's something about, um, farming that out to somebody.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:13Dax Shepard?

  It feels a little entitled. Like, I'm a busy person and I'm just going to have them go fine. I like this, this and this. I'm acknowledging that I'm trying to fight through that.

• 1:56:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, because I think.

• 1:56:25Dax Shepard?

  I'm sure there's a lot of versions that are not that.

• 1:56:27Speaker 01

  I don't think it's that dissimilar from telling all your friends, like, hey, I am single and I want you to keep your eye out for me. This is what I like.

• 1:56:37Dax Shepard?

  Yes, you know what it feels like? If you were at the Four Seasons and you called the concierge and said, I need a date tonight.

• 1:56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:43Dax Shepard?

  Like, calling the concierge to get you a date is a little bit the, when I want to be judgmental of it, is what it feels like.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, I understand that. I understand.

• 1:56:53Dax Shepard?

  And they don't deserve you, anyone that would call a concierge to get you. Okay? Can I just say that?

• 1:57:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:01Dax Shepard?

  But again, I can, I can, I can imagine Bill Gates, who I worship, going, I need help. I always get help from experts when I don't know what I'm doing. So why wouldn't I go see an expert to help me find love?

• 1:57:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:15Dax Shepard?

  When I paint it that way and I make it a real person.

• 1:57:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:57:18Dax Shepard?

  Then I'm right, I'm sympathetic to it and I'm supportive of it.

• 1:57:23Speaker 04

  Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

• 1:57:36Speaker 01

  But I agree with you. I don't think in all these cases, it's not necessarily,

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  I don't know how. I do think a lot of it is like, make this easier for me, but it is hard to date. So I do think, you know, make this easier for me is a, is a real thing to want and pursue.

• 1:57:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:57Speaker 01

  I mean, of course, my ego also, when he, even when he said, "I'm busy," I was like, "Bitch, I'm busy too."

• 1:58:05Dax Shepard?

  Everyone's busy.

• 1:58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're not the only, and I do think, like, I mean, I don't know what he knows about me.

• 1:58:11Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 1:58:12Speaker 01

  If he knows my last name, I don't know if he's, I don't know. It's kind of what you've talked about before of, like, the really, really, really gross part of being so insecure, but also, like, knowing your worth, or like, having like, a, a, a strong ego too.

• 1:58:34Dax Shepard?

  Zero self-esteem and megalomaniacal thinking. That's, that's me.

• 1:58:38Speaker 01

  I know, but, and I, but I don't, I don't think I'm megalomaniacal about it.

• 1:58:42Dax Shepard?

  You're not as extreme on either ends of the spectrum.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  Right, exactly, yes. But I, I do think there are moments, and it, I guess it depends on who I'm interacting with, but in this case, when he, when he says like, "I'm, I'm so busy," with no other question, you know, it's not like, "I'm so busy, what do you do?" What do you, you know, it's, it's just like, "This is, this is my life. I'm busy."

• 1:59:07Dax Shepard?

  If you can work your way into my life, we've got a deal.

• 1:59:11Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:59:12Dax Shepard?

  That's what's being triggered for me.

• 1:59:13Speaker 01

  Yes, and then what happens for me, which is equally gross,

• 1:59:17Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:18Speaker 01

  is you have to work your way into my life. This is not gonna work because I'm you.

• 1:59:24Dax Shepard?

  Yes, I think I could create the statement that would perfectly sum you up.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Okay. I'm scared.

• 1:59:30Dax Shepard?

  Indulge me.

• 1:59:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:59:31Dax Shepard?

  I'm very unattractive and I'm a hell of a catch.

• 1:59:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, good.

• 1:59:37Dax Shepard?

  This is your story about yourself. I think you think you're unattractive and I think you think you're a hell of a catch, which is the thing we're talking about.

• 1:59:46Speaker 01

  No, I don't think, no.

• 1:59:48Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  I don't think it's, I, I'm not, I don't think I'm unattractive.

• 1:59:52Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. That's better than I was expecting you to say. What?

• 1:59:57Dax Shepard?

  Ugly, is that what you said?

• 1:59:58Speaker 01

  Okay, yes, but I, I do think, I think I'm ugly, but that I, there is something overall.

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, overall.

• 2:00:10Dax Shepard?

  All right, so now I don't even feel bad. Yours was worse. I'm ugly, but I'm a fucking catch.

• 2:00:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess.

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  Although when you say it out loud, it's like, no, I'm, if I'm ugly, I can't be a catch.

• 2:00:22Dax Shepard?

  That's what mine's been since I was like 15. Like, yeah, I'm not much to look at, but I'm a fucking catch.

• 2:00:32Speaker 01

  I hate myself. I need to read an upcoming guest book. But I really don't. I don't hate myself.

• 2:00:39Dax Shepard?

  No.

• 2:00:39Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, I don't. I, I do.

• 2:00:42Dax Shepard?

  You're a catch and you know it.

• 2:00:43Speaker 01

  I do know it.

• 2:00:45Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:46Dax Shepard?

  If you could get the first end of that thing addressed, uh, you.

• 2:00:51Speaker 01

  I don't know if it would help me to know that because I think it's, I actually think. Really?

• 2:00:57Dax Shepard?

  Yes, because you're also writing your honesty, that you're also carrying a lot of baggage of, of insecurity.

• 2:01:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am.

• 2:01:05Dax Shepard?

  And you're looking for reasons to save yourself the embarrassment of not being chosen.

• 2:01:09Speaker 01

  Yes, I am.

• 2:01:10Dax Shepard?

  So that's really happening.

• 2:01:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:12Dax Shepard?

  And it's strong. And I think if you felt hot.

• 2:01:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:16Dax Shepard?

  And you knew, I mean, you know, you've got a great career. You know, you're super smart. You know, you're personable. You know, you're good in a crowd. But you know, all the other things. You're not, you're not insecure about any of those things.

• 2:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true.

• 2:01:27Dax Shepard?

  So if you just added that I'm hot, I don't think your mind would let you go to a place that you're not gonna get picked. Even if something didn't work out, you would go like someone with great self-esteem.

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:01:40Dax Shepard?

  It wasn't a match.

• 2:01:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:42Dax Shepard?

  It's not that I wasn't picked or I wasn't good enough. It's like the audition where it's like, yeah, you are a better actor than so and so, but they're fucking Chinese and I need a Chinese guy.

• 2:01:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess so. I, but I, I wonder if I just had like a hundred percent self-esteem, no insecurities. I felt so good.

• 2:02:02Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:02Speaker 01

  I don't know that I would ever find some, I mean, I already am never finding someone. So I guess what would be the difference, but.

• 2:02:09Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're in a zero risk.

• 2:02:11Speaker 01

  I, I guess that's true.

• 2:02:12Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:12Speaker 01

  But I think I would just feel like.

• 2:02:14Dax Shepard?

  To be mean, I say that to be, that's a really good part of your counter narrative CBT training, which is like, I, there's, I'm not risking anything, but I think if you had those other components, I think you would, because there's also this kind of self, self fulfilling prophecy, which is like, you're not actively going out there and spotting someone and making it fucking happen.

• 2:02:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm not.

• 2:02:35Dax Shepard?

  So you're in the incoming call business and guess what? You don't love the incoming calls. And then also you didn't select them and, and there's all, but if you had those other things, it wouldn't be about like, who's going to knock on your door one day? You're like, every time you saw someone that interested you at all, you'd be like, oh, I'm going to go make that fucking happen right now. What's up? What are you doing? Do you like coffee? Do you like bagels? Here's the things I like and I cook. You would hit them and they, and you would, and if they didn't respond, you wouldn't give a fuck. Cause you're like, I'm hot and I got a great career and I'm everything.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't, I don't do that. I don't know how to do, I don't know what that's like. Yeah.

• 2:03:14Dax Shepard?

  And I think most people don't.

• 2:03:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think a lot of.

• 2:03:19Dax Shepard?

  People are afraid to go pursue.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:21Dax Shepard?

  Someone they want.

• 2:03:22Speaker 01

  It's scary.

• 2:03:23Dax Shepard?

  I think my success in life has solely been as I wasn't afraid or I overcame my fear to go say hi to everyone at the bar that I liked.

• 2:03:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:32Dax Shepard?

  I just got in there and these other guys that they probably would have rather been with, just never came up and said hi to them. And they were stuck with me, but I'll take it.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  It worked out.

• 2:03:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:43Speaker 01

  But okay, I have a bad question. Do you think, my stomach. Also, this is kind of a ding ding ding, because this is for Alison, conversations, dating.

• 2:03:55Dax Shepard?

  Talk.

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  Talking. So this is very relevant.

• 2:03:58Dax Shepard?

  It is accidentally.

• 2:04:03Speaker 01

  You do recognize, right, that like, or am I wrong? I mean.

• 2:04:07Dax Shepard?

  Mama. Mama.

• 2:04:10Speaker 01

  But do you ever get to those? Ah.

• 2:04:13Dax Shepard?

  You ever get to those? Ahler?

• 2:04:20Speaker 01

  Not everyone's physically beautiful, or am I wrong about that?

• 2:04:26Dax Shepard?

  I think you're a bit wrong about that. Look, I'm not one that would deny there are things happening on a primitive level, which is like symmetry. These, we know these things are real.

• 2:04:37Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:04:37Dax Shepard?

  We know fertility is somehow deduced by looking at, like, things are happening that I will not be a denier of. I, in fact, I find it annoying when people pretend that some people aren't gonna, 98% of people are gonna find Brad Pitt attractive. We can acknowledge that that's the truth.

• 2:04:55Speaker 01

  Physically, just by looking, no, no, no personality.

• 2:04:59Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  Kristen, like, I think 100, 100% of people will see, just see her face.

• 2:05:06Dax Shepard?

  Yes, but I can think of, and I'm not gonna name them out loud, because I don't want it to run the risk of sounding mean.

• 2:05:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:12Dax Shepard?

  But there are, I know many women who decided they were hot as fuck and sexy, and they are.

• 2:05:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:05:21Dax Shepard?

  And a lot, and they have made it in show business, some of them.

• 2:05:24Speaker 01

  Right, and you don't think.

• 2:05:26Dax Shepard?

  And you can do that.

• 2:05:27Speaker 01

  But you don't think on face, I mean, you can do, I mean, I think confident, but that doesn't do anything to their, are you, you think it like morphs their face?

• 2:05:36Dax Shepard?

  It 100% morphs their face.

• 2:05:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:38Dax Shepard?

  Because they're carrying themselves like they're hot shit.

• 2:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:42Dax Shepard?

  You know, like, fuck.

• 2:05:43Speaker 01

  They must be.

• 2:05:44Dax Shepard?

  They know they're hot shit.

• 2:05:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:46Dax Shepard?

  You then go, what am I missing?

• 2:05:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:05:49Dax Shepard?

  And you go like, oh, yeah, her fucking hair is awesome. Yeah. And then that's, oh, what a smile. Yeah, look at her eyes are this. And you, and you go like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. But if they walk in like this, like, you're like, oh, God, they're fucking. They've been told they're a mess their whole life. It does, it does.

• 2:06:08Speaker 01

  No, it does. You're right. You're right, but even.

• 2:06:11Dax Shepard?

  And I, I just know, cause I'm speaking, I am the beneficiary of that. I, that has been my angle.

• 2:06:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:17Dax Shepard?

  For a long, long time. And, and it hasn't worked all the time.

• 2:06:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:21Dax Shepard?

  And a lot of girls are like, no buddy, you're not fucking, you're presenting yourself as some 10, you're not. That certainly has happened.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:06:27Dax Shepard?

  Yes, no, it's happened a bunch of times.

• 2:06:29Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:06:30Dax Shepard?

  But it's also worked a bunch.

• 2:06:32Speaker 01

  I think you potentially like personality more than your average.

• 2:06:39Dax Shepard?

  I think you're right. And I think it weirdly is a sign of my confidence, which is I don't need a trophy woman. I don't need to be seen with a woman that's hot.

• 2:06:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:06:51Dax Shepard?

  But I need to be with the coolest woman in the room.

• 2:06:53Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:06:53Dax Shepard?

  For sure. So sure, there will be men who don't prioritize that. And what a blessing, you've weeded them out.

• 2:07:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I'm like, there's no one left.

• 2:07:05Dax Shepard?

  No, there are a lot of dudes.

• 2:07:06Speaker 01

  I kind of think there's no one left. It's like the guys with the, with, who, who respect a woman's personality and like is attracted to that and like that. They're gone, they're taken. Like those people are, for women, that is the most attractive thing.

• 2:07:26Dax Shepard?

  I think that is overly pessimistic.

• 2:07:29Speaker 01

  Okay, well.

• 2:07:30Dax Shepard?

  There's numerous reasons why great people find themselves single all the time.

• 2:07:34Speaker 01

  Anomen.

• 2:07:36Dax Shepard?

  Anomen's one of them. But their partner didn't grow with them.

• 2:07:39Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:07:40Dax Shepard?

  You know.

• 2:07:41Speaker 01

  That's true. Whoa. Okay.

• 2:07:44Dax Shepard?

  We're lost.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  We are lost indeed. Okay, um.

• 2:07:49Dax Shepard?

  But my thing about you shaving your sides has always been about that.

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  I know, but that, I know, but it's not me.

• 2:07:56Dax Shepard?

  You don't know what me, like, you can't say, because you've filled in what that means from something else you've seen.

• 2:08:05Speaker 01

  No, no, I, and then this is the other swing that I'm talking, I know me.

• 2:08:11Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:12Speaker 01

  I am not unclear about me. Like I know who I am and I like that person.

• 2:08:22Speaker 01

  So I am not going to be like, I guess maybe I'll change up this whole me in order to be

• 2:08:32Dax Shepard?

  Broadcast.

• 2:08:34Speaker 01

  Exactly, to broadcast or be more like overtly attractive to people.

• 2:08:39Speaker 01

  I, I'm like, no thanks.

• 2:08:41Dax Shepard?

  You are assessing that whole suggestion on aesthetic.

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:08:46Dax Shepard?

  And my story about you is actually you had been a chameleon your whole life.

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 2:08:53Dax Shepard?

  And in this show, I had, we have friends who go, oh my God, I didn't know that side of Monica.

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 2:09:00Dax Shepard?

  You have become more and more yourself.

• 2:09:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's true. And just with age.

• 2:09:04Dax Shepard?

  And you are unique on a level that shaves sides makes sense. You're thinking of it in this like really ironclad aesthetic and punk rock. But you're missing the point it makes that I'm making.

• 2:09:16Speaker 01

  I know the point you're making.

• 2:09:18Dax Shepard?

  I'm one of the most unique people here. I'm one of the most original people here and I'm different.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:09:25Dax Shepard?

  And this thing is a visual cue that I am.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  I know. I know what you're saying, but, but you might not be hearing what I'm saying, which is, I get that.

• 2:09:37Dax Shepard?

  That's not who you are.

• 2:09:38Speaker 01

  I am not someone who, and I like this about me. I am not someone who is like, look at me, I'm so unique, I'm so special. For me, I'm like, you get to know me and you have that, you make your opinion. And hopefully you come to that conclusion.

• 2:09:57Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:57Speaker 01

  But I am not here to, yeah, to like throw that in your face. And I like that about me. I don't, I don't love when people need to do that.

• 2:10:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, you're like, I want people to find out I have a great body. Literally.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  Well.

• 2:10:13Dax Shepard?

  That is, and I want people to find out I am like this very unique person.

• 2:10:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:19Dax Shepard?

  I hope everyone is like, you know, willing to be presented with one thing and then have to climb through some layers to find out all this great stuff.

• 2:10:29Speaker 01

  Saying, that's why I'm ugly. Like if you have to get. Over the hump of my face.

• 2:10:35Dax Shepard?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:10:36Speaker 01

  Then.

• 2:10:37Dax Shepard?

  I was warned about this, but.

• 2:10:41Speaker 01

  Okay, let's do it. We have.

• 2:10:42Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, we gotta wrap up.

• 2:10:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, we really do.

• 2:10:44Speaker 03

  Suzanne's almost here.

• 2:10:45Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 2:10:46Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great. We are resuming. We had to break to interview, and I have since been out in the rain. Is it obvious?

• 2:10:51Speaker 01

  I see some spittle.

• 2:10:53Dax Shepard?

  I feel something on my forehead.

• 2:10:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, that's true. I put my hair up.

• 2:10:57Dax Shepard?

  I would hate for, well, if we were completely. Oh, geez, so it's a real, yeah, okay.

• 2:11:03Speaker 01

  Wow, wow, wow.

• 2:11:04Dax Shepard?

  Well, the listener won't give a fuck.

• 2:11:07Speaker 01

  Okay, so some facts for Allison.

• 2:11:09Dax Shepard?

  Okay, great.

• 2:11:09Speaker 01

  I loved this episode. I thought she, I was really interesting, just the most basic topic possible. We really do take for granted. I've thought about it a few times in conversation.

• 2:11:23Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, the thing that stuck with me that I really liked is this, like, fallacy of naturalness, that everyone thinks that everything should happen organically, or that means it's not a good fit.

• 2:11:31Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. And even just, like, boomerang questions I've noticed from people, even me, I think about ending on a quest, you know, I've just been more aware, which has been interesting.

• 2:11:45Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I'm such a boomerang question. It's so embarrassing.

• 2:11:49Speaker 01

  Group hierarchies in conversation. That's really fascinating to watch.

• 2:11:54Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I loved it. Okay, I'm gonna play a tiny bit of Diet Pepsi, a song by Addison Rae.

• 2:12:00Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:12:01Speaker 01

  That comes up in the episode.

• 2:12:10Dax Shepard?

  She's my kind of gal. Makes me, it makes me rethink Diet Coke.

• 2:12:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, you might need to.

• 2:12:15Dax Shepard?

  I have to weigh her against my affinity for Bill Gates and Diet Coke.

• 2:12:18Speaker 01

  Oh, God, that's a lot to balance.

• 2:12:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. You know what I like about that?

• 2:12:22Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:12:23Dax Shepard?

  That she likes that her boyfriend's got a Costco chain on.

• 2:12:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 2:12:27Dax Shepard?

  That says a lot.

• 2:12:29Speaker 01

  This is like Cookie Boy.

• 2:12:30Dax Shepard?

  This is like, I respect her. She's not like trying to have some dude in Gucci. She's like, her man looks good in this Costco chain. She's like a real chick. I'm gonna have a Diet Pepsi.

• 2:12:42Dax Shepard?

  Do you like those things?

• 2:12:43Speaker 01

  Costco chain?

• 2:12:44Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, I think that's a cool detail of it.

• 2:12:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 2:12:47Dax Shepard?

  Okay, go ahead.

• 2:12:49Speaker 01

  No, it's great. But it's exactly what I said about Cookie Boy.

• 2:12:53Dax Shepard?

  How so? Tell me, explain the connective tissue?

• 2:12:56Speaker 01

  Confidence.

• 2:12:57Dax Shepard?

  Cookie Boy.

• 2:12:58Speaker 01

  Yeah. But.

• 2:13:00Dax Shepard?

  It's exactly the same.

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  The same. Um, okay. How many people are mirror twins? About 25% of identical twins are mirror twins.

• 2:13:09Dax Shepard?

  That's not good enough.

• 2:13:10Speaker 01

  You want 90.

• 2:13:12Dax Shepard?

  I gotta stop saying it. I thought the majority of twins did this.

• 2:13:15Speaker 01

  I know, but you can still ask because maybe you'll find one of the 25%.

• 2:13:20Dax Shepard?

  Yeah. One in every four people I ask will say yes.

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  Exactly. Okay, so we talked about coordination games, game theory for a little bit, which was interesting. And there's some classic ones. Prisoner's Dilemma, which we spoke about.

• 2:13:37Dax Shepard?

  Uh huh.

• 2:13:38Speaker 01

  The Battle of the Sexes. Okay, I'm gonna read about that for a second.

• 2:13:42Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:13:43Speaker 01

  The game involves two players, boy and girl, deciding either going to a football game or going to an opera for their date, which respectively represent boys and girls' preferred activity, i.e. boy prefers football game and girl prefers opera. This example is a two-person, non-cooperative, non-zero-sum, that's called a TNNC.

• 2:14:03Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:14:03Speaker 01

  Game with opposite payoffs or conflicting preferences.

• 2:14:08Dax Shepard?

  I don't know why it's zero-sum because whoever wins is going to win everything and the other person's gonna get nothing of what they want. That feels like the definition of zero-sum. Okay, we'll keep going.

• 2:14:16Speaker 01

  Because there are two Nash equilibrium. This case is a pure coordination problem with no possibility of refinement or selection. Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other, and yet. Non-zero sum for you if you lose, I guess.

• 2:14:36Dax Shepard?

  Zero sum is chess. You can't kinda win, you can't win halfway.

• 2:14:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:41Dax Shepard?

  You either win or you lose.

• 2:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 2:14:43Dax Shepard?

  Poker, you could come with $200 and leave with 300.

• 2:14:47Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:14:47Dax Shepard?

  Other people could also have 400, someone could be down, you know. There's varying degrees of success.

• 2:14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:14:55Dax Shepard?

  But this feels like it's all or nothing.

• 2:14:57Speaker 01

  Oh, this does feel zero sum, you're saying. I see.

• 2:14:59Dax Shepard?

  You're either gonna get to go see your thing you wanted, or you're not. You're gonna be stuck at the opera.

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  Right, okay. Thus, the two players will try to maximize their own payoff or to sacrifice for the other, and yet the strategy without coordination will lead to two outcomes with even worse payoffs for both if they have disagreement on what to do on their date.

• 2:15:20Dax Shepard?

  Okay, which is all, they'll have to go to a prison cell or something is the third option if they don't agree? It's gotta be something worse than the football game for her and the opera for him.

• 2:15:30Speaker 01

  That's all it says.

• 2:15:31Dax Shepard?

  Okay, that's pretty good. I like it.

• 2:15:36Speaker 01

  It has, it has a chart, but I don't get it.

• 2:15:39Dax Shepard?

  But really quick, yes, if there's a third option that they are penalized with for not agreeing, then yes, it's not zero sum.

• 2:15:46Speaker 01

  Sure, maybe all of them have that element.

• 2:15:48Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:49Speaker 01

  Now there's a matching pennies game.

• 2:15:51Dax Shepard?

  Ooh.

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  This game is a two-person zero-sum game. In order to play this game, both players will each need to be given a fair, two-sided penny. To start the game, both players will each choose to either flip their penny to heads or tails. This action is to be done in secrecy, and there should be no attempt at investigating the choice of the other player.

• 2:16:12Dax Shepard?

  Let's keep it honest.

• 2:16:13Speaker 01

  After both players have confirmed their decisions, they will simultaneously reveal their choices. This concludes the actions taken by the players to determine the outcome. The win condition for this game is different for both players. For simplicity in explanation, let's denote the players as player one and player two. In order for player one to win, the faces of the pennies must match.

• 2:16:35Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:16:35Speaker 01

  This means they must both be heads or tails. In order for player two to win, the faces of the pennies must be different.

• 2:16:41Dax Shepard?

  Oh, no.

• 2:16:43Speaker 01

  The payoff slash prize of this game is receiving the loser's penny in addition to your own.

• 2:16:49Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  Two pennies.

• 2:16:50Dax Shepard?

  Okay. Um. Kinda outdated.

• 2:16:53Speaker 01

  Well, you'd keep playing and playing. Um, yeah. Looking at this matrix, we can conclude a few basic observations. One, for all scenarios, there will be a winner and a loser.

• 2:17:04Dax Shepard?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:05Speaker 01

  Two, this is a zero-sum game where the payout to the winner is equal to the loss of the loser.

• 2:17:10Dax Shepard?

  I get.

• 2:17:11Speaker 01

  Three, there is no pure strategy Nash equilibrium. We didn't, we don't know what that is.

• 2:17:16Dax Shepard?

  Right.

• 2:17:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:17:18Dax Shepard?

  That would be a third. That has to be a third option that's less bad than the uh, worse outcome and not as good as the ideal outcome.

• 2:17:26Speaker 01

  Non-cooperative games are generally analyzed through the non-cooperative game theory framework, which attempts to predict players' individual strategies and payoffs. And in order to find the Nash equilibrium. I love this.

• 2:17:39Dax Shepard?

  The wordage.

• 2:17:40Speaker 01

  This is so fancy and hard. Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna become an expert in game theory.

• 2:17:48Dax Shepard?

  Oh, I, I hope you do.

• 2:17:49Speaker 01

  I'm not smart enough for that, but I want to be. So maybe I will. Okay, that's that. Con's dinner party rules, conversation.

• 2:17:56Dax Shepard?

  We need to know these if we're gonna host a Con dinner party.

• 2:17:59Speaker 01

  I know and I want to. Conversation structure. Dinner conversation should have three stages. Narration, argumentation, jesting. Light-hearted plays of wit.

• 2:18:08Dax Shepard?

  Hmm.

• 2:18:09Speaker 01

  Code of secrecy. Dinner party conversation should not be discussed with anyone outside of the dinner party.

• 2:18:13Dax Shepard?

  Ooh.

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  Purpose, the goal of.

• 2:18:16Dax Shepard?

  That one's gonna be hard for me. If I hear something great at the dinner party, I will keep the anonymity of the speaker, but I might wanna get the message out.

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:23Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna violate that one.

• 2:18:24Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:18:25Dax Shepard?

  I just want you to know up front.

• 2:18:26Speaker 01

  Not invited. Okay. Purpose, the goal of Con's dinner parties was to encourage civility and listening to others. Con believed that participants would hear each other and feel heard. Other dinner party etiquette tips, RSVP, arrive on time, be respectful of the host's practices, beliefs, and environment. Oh, that's bad for you. You won't eat the, the gluten bread.

• 2:18:44Dax Shepard?

  Okay.

• 2:18:45Speaker 01

  Be a good conversationalist.

• 2:18:46Dax Shepard?

  I'm gonna smoke cigarettes.

• 2:18:48Speaker 01

  Be a good conversationalist, bring a gift or something for the party to enjoy.

• 2:18:51Dax Shepard?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:18:53Speaker 01

  Parties should be limited to nine people and no fewer than three to avoid side conversations.

• 2:18:58Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, side conversations. I was just with my whole family and there was some side conversing.

• 2:19:04Speaker 01

  There was, and it was driving you a little...

• 2:19:06Dax Shepard?

  Yeah, it's a little.

• 2:19:08Speaker 01

  Alright, that's it.

• 2:19:09Dax Shepard?

  That was everything.

• 2:19:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:19:10Dax Shepard?

  Okay, wonderful.

• 2:19:13Speaker 01

  Love you.

• 2:19:13Dax Shepard?

  Love you.