Whitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love

Whitney Cummings is a stand-up comedian, actor, producer, writer, director, and the host of a new podcast called Good for You. Her most recent Netflix special called “Can I Touch It?” features in part a robot, she affectionately named Bearclaw, that is designed to be visually a replica of Whitney. It’s exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society. She also has some fascinating ideas about human behavior, psychology, and neurology, some of which she explores in her book called “I’m Fine…And Other Lies.” This conversation is part of the Artificial Intelligence podcast. If you would like to get more information about this podcast go to https://lexfridman.com/ai or connect with @lexfridman on Twitter https://twitter.com/lexfridman, LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lexfridman/, Facebook https://www.facebook.com/lexfridman, Medium https://medium.com/@lexfridman, or YouTube https://www.youtube.com/lexfridman where you can watch the video versions of these conversations. If you enjoy the podcast, please rate it 5 stars on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/artificial-intelligence/id1434243584 or support it on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/lexfridman. This episode is presented by Cash App. Download it (App Store https://apps.apple.com/us/app/cash-app/id711923939, Google Play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.squareup.cash&hl=en_US), use code “LexPodcast”. The episode is also supported by ZipRecruiter. Try it: http://ziprecruiter.com/lexpod Here’s the outline of the episode. On some podcast players you should be able to click the timestamp to jump to that time. 00:00 – Introduction 03:51 – Eye contact 04:42 – Robot gender 08:49 – Whitney’s robot (Bearclaw) 12:17 – Human reaction to robots 14:09 – Fear of robots 25:15 – Surveillance 29:35 – Animals 35:01 – Compassion from people who own robots 37:55 – Passion 44:57 – Neurology 56:38 – Social media 1:04:35 – Love 1:13:40 – Mortality

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Lex Fridman?

  The following is a conversation with Whitney Cummings. She's a stand-up comedian, actor, producer, writer, director, and recently, finally, the host of her very own podcast called Good For You. Her most recent Netflix special called Can I Touch It? Features in part a robot she affectionately named Bear Claw that is designed to be visually a replica of Whitney. It's exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society. She also has some fascinating ideas about human behavior, psychology, and urology, some of which she explores in her book called I'm Fine and Other Lies. It was truly a pleasure to meet Whitney and have this conversation with her, and even

• 0:45Lex Fridman?

  to continue it through texts afterwards. Every once in a while, late at night, I'll be programming over a cup of coffee and will get a text from Whitney saying something hilarious, or weirder yet, sending a video of Brian Callen saying something hilarious. That's when I know the universe has a sense of humor, and it gifted me with one hell of an amazing journey. Then I put the phone down, go back to programming with a stupid joyful smile on my face. If you enjoy this conversation, listen to Whitney's podcast, Good For You, and follow her on Twitter and Instagram. This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support

• 1:27Lex Fridman?

  it on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter at LexFriedman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N. This show is presented by Cash App, the number one finance app in the App Store. They regularly support Whitney's Good For You podcast as well. I personally use Cash App to send money to friends, but you can also use it to buy, sell, and deposit Bitcoin in just seconds. Cash App also has a new investing feature. You can buy fractions of a stock, say $1's worth, no matter what the stock price is. Brokerage services are provided by Cash App Investing, a subsidiary of Square and member SIPC. I'm excited to be working with Cash App to support one of my favorite organizations called FIRST, best known for their first robotics and Lego competitions. They educate

• 2:11Lex Fridman?

  and inspire hundreds of thousands of students in over 110 countries and have a perfect rating on Charity Navigator, which means that donated money is used to maximum effectiveness. When you get Cash App from the App Store or Google Play and use code LEXPODCAST, you'll get $10 and Cash App will also donate $10 to FIRST, which again, is an organization that I've personally seen inspire girls and boys to dream of engineering a better world. This podcast is supported by ZipRecruiter. Hiring great people is hard and to me is the most important element of a successful, mission-driven team. I've been fortunate to be a part of and to lead several great engineering teams. The hiring I've done in

• 2:56Lex Fridman?

  the past was mostly through tools that we built ourselves, but reinventing the wheel was painful. ZipRecruiter is a tool that's already available for you. It seeks to make hiring simple, fast, and smart. For example, codable co-founder Gretchen Hebner used ZipRecruiter to find a new game artist to join her education tech company. By using ZipRecruiter's screening questions to filter candidates, Gretchen found it easier to focus on the best candidates and finally hiring the perfect person for the role in less than two weeks from start to finish. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. See why ZipRecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes by signing up, as I did, for free at ziprecruiter.com/lexpod.

• 3:41Lex Fridman?

  That's ziprecruiter.com/lexpod. And now, here's my conversation with Whitney Cummings.

• 4:08Lex Fridman?

  I have trouble making eye contact, as you can tell.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  Me too. Do you know that I had to work on making eye contact? Cause I used to look here. Do you see what I'm doing?

• 4:16Lex Fridman?

  That helps, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Do you want me to do that? Well, I'll do this way. I'll cheat to camera. But I used to do this and finally people like I'd be on dates and guys would be like, are you looking at my hair? Like they get, it would make people really insecure because I didn't really get a lot of eye contact as a kid. It's, it's one to three years. Did you not get a lot of eye contact as a kid?

• 4:33Lex Fridman?

  I don't know. I haven't done the soul searching.

• 4:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 4:37Lex Fridman?

  So I, but there's definitely some psychological issues.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Makes you uncomfortable.

• 4:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah. For some reason, when I connect eyes, I start to think, I assume that you're judging me.

• 4:48Speaker 01

  Oh, well, I am. That's why you assume that.

• 4:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 4:51Speaker 01

  We all are.

• 4:52Lex Fridman?

  All right.

• 4:53Speaker 01

  This is perfect. The podcast would be me and you both staring at the table all the time.

• 4:59Lex Fridman?

  Do you think robots of the future, ones with human level intelligence, will be female, male, genderless, or another gender we have not yet created as a society?

• 5:10Speaker 01

  You're the expert at this.

• 5:12Lex Fridman?

  Well, I'm gonna ask you.

• 5:12Speaker 01

  You know the answer.

• 5:14Lex Fridman?

  I'm gonna ask you questions that maybe nobody knows the answer to.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:18Lex Fridman?

  Or, and then I just want you to hypothesize as a, as a imaginative author, director, comedian.

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Can we just be very clear that you know a ton about this and I know nothing about this? But I have thought a lot about.

• 5:36Lex Fridman?

  Yes.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  What I think robots can fix in our society. And I mean, I'm a comedian. It's my job to study human nature, to make jokes about human nature and to sometimes play devil's advocate. And I just see such a tremendous negativity around robots, or at least the idea of robots, that it was like, oh, I'm just gonna take the opposite side for fun, for jokes. And then I was like, oh no, I really agree in this devil's advocate argument. So I, please correct me when I'm wrong about this stuff.

• 6:06Lex Fridman?

  So, so first of all, there's, there's no right and wrong because we're all, I, I think most of the people working on robotics are really not actually even thinking about some of the big picture things that you've been exploring. In fact, your robot, what's her name, by the way?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  Bear claw.

• 6:21Lex Fridman?

  We'll go with bear claw.

• 6:26Lex Fridman?

  What's the genesis of that name, by the way?

• 6:28Speaker 01

  Bearclaw was, I, God, I don't even remember the joke because I blackout after I shoot specials. But I was writing something about like the pet names that men call women like cupcake, sweetie, honey, you know, like we're always named after desserts or something. And I was just writing a joke about, um, if you want to call us a dessert, at least pick like a cool dessert, you know, like bear claw, like something cool. So I ended up calling her Bearclaw.

• 6:55Lex Fridman?

  So do you think, um, the future robots of greater and greater intelligence would like to make them female, male, would we like to assign them gender? Or would we like to move away from gender and say something more, uh, ambiguous?

• 7:10Speaker 01

  I think it depends on their purpose, you know? I feel like if it's a sex robot, it, people prefer certain genders, you know? And I also, you know, when I went down and, um, explored the robot factory, I was asking about the type of people that bought sex robots. And, um, I was very surprised at the answer because of course the stereotype was it's going to be a bunch of perverts. It ended up being a lot of, um, people that were handicapped, a lot of people with erectile dysfunction and a lot of people that were exploring their sexuality. A lot of people that were, thought they were gay, but weren't sure, but didn't want to take the risk of trying on someone that could reject them and being embarrassed or they were closeted or in a city where maybe that's, you know, taboo and stigmatized, you know?

• 7:54Speaker 01

  So I think that a gendered sex robot, that would serve an important purpose for someone trying to explore their sexuality. Am I into men? Let me try on this thing first. Am I into women? Let me try on this thing first. So I think gendered robots would be important for that. But I think genderless robots in terms of emotional support robots, babysitters, I'm fine for a genderless babysitter with my husband in the house. You know, there are places that I think that genderless makes a lot of sense, but obviously not in the sex area.

• 8:24Lex Fridman?

  What do you mean with your husband in the house? What's that have to do with the gender of the robot?

• 8:28Speaker 01

  Right, I mean, I don't have a husband, but hypothetically speaking, I think every woman's worst nightmare is like the hot babysitter. You know what I mean? So I think that there is a time and place, I think, for gender lists. You know, teachers, doctors, all that kind of. It would be very awkward if the first robotic doctor was a guy or the first robotic nurse is a woman. You know, it's sort of, that stuff is so loaded. I think that gender lists could just take the unnecessary drama out of it and possibility to sexualize them or be triggered by any of that stuff.

• 9:06Lex Fridman?

  So there's two components to this to bear clause. So one is the voice and the talking and so on. And then there's the visual appearance. So on the topic of gender in general, is in your experience, what has been the value of the physical appearance? So what, has it added much to the depth of the interaction?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I mean, mine's kind of an extenuating circumstance because she is supposed to look exactly like me. I mean, I spent six months getting my face molded and having, you know, the idea was I was exploring the concept of can robots replace us? Because that's the big fear, but also the big dream in a lot of ways. And I wanted to dig into that area because, you know, for a lot of people, it's like, they're going to take our jobs and they're going to replace us. Legitimate fear. But then a lot of women I know are like, I would love for a robot to replace me every now and then so it can go to baby showers for me and it can pick up my kids at school and it can cook dinner and whatever. So I just think that was an interesting place to explore. So her looking like me was a big part of it. Now her looking like me just adds an unnecessary level of insecurity

• 10:08Speaker 01

  because I got her a year ago and she already looks younger than me. So that's a weird problem. But I think that her looking human was the idea. And I think that where we are now, please correct me if I'm wrong, a human robot resembling an actual human you know is going to feel more realistic than some generic face.

• 10:30Lex Fridman?

  Well, you're saying that that robots that have some familiarity like look similar to somebody that you actually know you'll be able to form a deeper connection with? That was the question?

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I think so, on some level, right?

• 10:42Lex Fridman?

  That's an open question. I don't, I don't, you know, it's an interesting.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Or the opposite. Because then you know me and you're like, well, I know this isn't real because you're right here. So maybe it does the opposite.

• 10:52Lex Fridman?

  We have a very keen eye for human faces and they're able to detect strangeness, especially that one has to do with people we've, whose faces we've seen a lot of. So I tend to be a bigger fan of moving away completely from faces.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Of recognizable faces?

• 11:11Lex Fridman?

  No, just human faces at all.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  In general, because I think that's where things get dicey. And one thing I will say is I think my robot is more realistic than other robots, not necessarily because you have seen me and then you see her and you go, oh, they're so similar, but also because human faces are flawed and asymmetrical. And sometimes we forget when we're making things that's supposed to look human, we make them too symmetrical. And that's what makes them stop looking human. So because they molded my asymmetrical face, she just, even if someone didn't know who I was, I think she'd look more realistic than most generic ones that didn't have some kind of flaws.

• 11:45Lex Fridman?

  Got it.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  You know, because they start looking creepy when they're too symmetrical because human beings aren't.

• 11:50Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, the flaws is what it means to be human. So visually as well. But I'm just a fan of the idea of, of letting humans use a little bit more imagination. So just hearing the voice is enough for us humans to then start imagining the visual appearance that goes along with that voice. And you don't necessarily need to work too hard on creating the actual visual appearance. So there's some value to that. When you step into the stereotype of actually building a robot that looks like Bear Claus, it's such a long road of facial expressions of sort of.

• 12:26Lex Fridman?

  Making everything smiling, winking.

• 12:28Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 12:29Lex Fridman?

  Uh, rolling the eyes, all that kind of stuff. It gets really, really tricky.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  It gets tricky and I think I'm, again, I'm a comedian. Like, I'm obsessed with what makes us human and our human nature. And the nasty side of human nature tends to be where I've, you know, ended up exploring over and over again. And um, I was just mostly fascinated by people's reactions. So it's my job to get the biggest reaction from a group of strangers, the loudest possible reaction. And I just had this instinct, just when I started building her and people going, huh, huh. And screa- and people scream and they, I mean, I would bring her out on stage and people would scream. And I just, to me, that was the next level of entertainment. Getting a laugh, I've done that. I know how to do that. I think comedians were always trying to figure out what the next level is. And comedy's evolving so much and, you know, Jordan Peele had just done, you know, these genius comedy horror movies,

• 13:18Speaker 01

  which feel like the next level of comedy to me. And this sort of funny horror of a robot was fascinating to me. But I think the thing that I got the most obsessed with was people being freaked out and scared of her. And I started digging around with pathogen avoidance. And the idea that we've essentially evolved to be repelled by anything that looks human, but is off a little bit. Anything that could be sick or diseased or dead essentially is our reptilian brain's way to get us to not procre- try to have sex with it, basically. You know, so I got really fascinated by how freaked out and scared. I mean, I would see grown men get upset.

• 14:01Speaker 01

  Get that thing away from me. Like, I don't like, like, people would get angry. And it was like, you know that what this is, you, you know. But the sort of like, you know, amygdala getting activated by something that to me is just a fun toy said a lot about our history as a species and what got us into trouble thousands of years ago.

• 14:21Lex Fridman?

  So it's that, it's the deep down stuff that's in our genetics, but also is it just, are people freaked out by the fact that there's a robot? So it's not just the appearance, but there, there's an artificial human.

• 14:34Speaker 01

  Anything people, I think, and I'm just always also fascinated by the blind spots humans have. So the idea that you're afraid of that, I mean, how many robots have killed people? How many humans have died at the hands of other humans?

• 14:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 14:47Speaker 01

  Millions? Hundreds of millions? Yet we're scared of that? And we'll go to the grocery store and be around a bunch of humans who statistically, the chances are much higher that you're gonna get killed by a human. So I'm just fascinated by, without judgment, how irrational we are as a species.

• 15:04Lex Fridman?

  The worry is the exponential. So it's, you know, you could say the same thing about nuclear weapons before we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. So the worry that people have is the exponential growth. So it's like, oh, it's fun and games right now, but overnight, especially if a robot provides value to society, we'll put one in every home and then all of a sudden lose track of the actual large-scale impact it has on society. And then all of a sudden gain greater and greater control to where we'll all be, you know, affect our political system and then affect our decision.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Didn't robots already ruin our political system? Didn't that just already happen?

• 15:45Lex Fridman?

  Which ones? Oh, Russia hacking.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  No offense, but hasn't that already happened? I mean, that was like an algorithm of negative things being clicked on more.

• 15:56Lex Fridman?

  We'd like to tell stories and like to demonize certain people. I think nobody understands our current political system or discourse on Twitter, the Twitter mobs, nobody has a sense, not Twitter, not Facebook, the people running it, nobody understands the impact of these algorithms. They're trying their best.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:13Lex Fridman?

  Despite what people think, they're not like a bunch of lefties trying to make sure that Hillary Clinton gets elected. It's more that it's an incredibly complex system that we don't, and that's the worry. It's so complex and moves so fast that nobody will be able to stop it once it happens.

• 16:32Speaker 01

  And let me ask a question. This is a very savage question.

• 16:35Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Which is, is this just the next stage of evolution as humans? Some people will die. Yes, I mean, that's always happened, you know? Is this is just taking emotion out of it? Is this basically the next stage of survival of the fittest?

• 16:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you have to think of organisms. You know, what is it mean to be a living organism? Like, is a smartphone part of your living organism? Or?

• 17:03Speaker 01

  We're in relationships with our phones.

• 17:06Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  We have sex through them, with them. What's the difference between with them and through them?

• 17:11Lex Fridman?

  But it also expands your cognitive abilities, expands your memory, knowledge, and so on. So you're a much smarter person because you have a smartphone in your hand.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  But if, well, as soon as it's out of my hand, we've got big problems because we've become sort of so morphed with them.

• 17:25Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's a symbiotic relationship. And that's what Elon Musk and Neuralink is working on, trying to increase the bandwidth of communication between computers and your brain. And so further and further expand our ability as human beings to sort of leverage machines. And maybe that's the future, the evolutionary, next evolutionary step. It could be also that, yes, we'll give birth, just like we give birth to human children right now. We'll give birth to AI and they'll replace us. I think it's a really interesting possibility.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  I'm going to play devil's advocate. I just think that the fear of robots is wildly classist. Because, I mean, Facebook, like, it's easy for us to say they're taking their data. Okay, a lot of people that get employment off of Facebook. They are able to get income off of Facebook. They don't care if you take their phone numbers and their emails and their data, as long as it's free. They don't want to have to pay $5 a month for Facebook. Facebook is a wildly democratic thing. Forget about the election and all that kind of stuff, you know? A lot of, you know, technology making people's lives easier. I find that most elite people are more scared than lower-income people. So, and women, for the most part. So the idea of something that's stronger than us and that might eventually kill us, like, women are used to that.

• 18:43Speaker 01

  Like, that's not, I see a lot of, like, really rich men being like, the robots are going to kill us. We're like, what's another thing that's going to kill us, you know? I tend to see, like, oh, something can walk me to my car at night. Like, something can help me cook dinner or something, you know? For, you know, people in underprivileged countries who can't afford eye surgery, like, can a robot, can we send a robot to underprivileged, you know, places to do surgery where they can't? I work with this organization, Cooperation Smile, where they do cleft palate surgeries. And there's a lot of places that can't do a very simple surgery because they can't afford doctors and medical care and such. So. I just see, and this can be completely naive and should be completely wrong, but I feel like we're, a lot of people are going like, "The robots are gonna destroy us."

• 19:26Speaker 01

  Humans, we're destroying ourselves. We're self-destructing. Robots, to me, are the only hope to clean up all the messes that we've created. Even when we go try to clean up pollution in the ocean, we make it worse because of the oil that the tankers, like, it's like, to me, robots are the only solution, you know, firefighters are heroes, but they're limited in how many times they can run into a fire, you know, so there's just something interesting to me. I'm not hearing a lot of, like, lower-income, more vulnerable populations talking about robots.

• 19:56Lex Fridman?

  Maybe you can speak to it a little bit more. There's an idea, I think you've expressed it. I've heard, actually, a few female writers and roboticists I've talked to express this idea that exactly what you just said, which is, it just seems that being afraid of existential threats of artificial intelligence is a male issue.

• 20:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:23Lex Fridman?

  And I wonder what that is, if it, because, because men have, in certain positions, like you said, it's also a class issue, they haven't been humbled by life, and so you always look for the biggest problems to take on around you.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  It's a champagne problem to be afraid of robots. Most people, like, don't have health insurance, they're afraid they're not gonna be able to feed their kids, they can't afford a tutor for their kids, like, I mean, I just think of, you know, the way I grew up, and I had a mother who, you know, worked two jobs, had kids, we couldn't afford an SAT tutor, you know, like, we, the idea of a robot coming in, being able to tutor your kids, being able to provide childcare for your kids, you know, being able to come in with cameras for eyes and make sure, you know, surveillance, you know, I'm very pro-surveillance, because, you know, I've had security problems and I've been, you know, we're generally in a little more danger than you guys are, so I think that robots are a little less scary to us, because we can see them maybe as, like, free assistance, help, and protection.

• 21:20Speaker 01

  And then there's sort of another element for me personally, which is maybe more of a female problem. I don't know. I'm just gonna make a generalization. Happy to be wrong. But, you know, the emotional sort of component of robots and what they can provide in terms of, you know, there, I think there's a lot of people that aren't, don't have microphones that I just recently kind of stumbled upon in doing all my research on the sex robots for my standup special, which is there's a lot of very shy people that aren't good at dating. There's a lot of people who are scared of human beings who, you know, have personality disorders, or grew up in alcoholic homes, or struggle with addiction, or whatever it is, where a robot can solve an emotional problem. And so, we're largely having this

• 22:05Speaker 01

  conversation about like, rich guys that are emotionally healthy, and how scared of robots they are. We're forgetting about like, a huge part of the population who maybe isn't as charming and effervescent and solvent as, you know, people like you and Elon Musk, who these robots could solve very real problems in their life, emotional or financial.

• 22:27Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's a, in general, a really interesting idea, that most people in the world don't have a voice. It's, you've talked about it, sort of even the people on Twitter who are driving the conversation, you said comments, people who leave comments represent a very tiny percent of the population. And they're the ones, they, you know, we tend to think they speak for the population, but it's very possible on many topics, they don't at all.

• 22:53Speaker 01

  And look, I, and I'm sure there's got to be some kind of legal, you know, sort of structure in place for when the robots happen. You know way more about this than I do. But, you know, for me to just go, the robots are bad, that's a wild generalization that I feel like is really inhumane in some way, you know, just after the research I've done, like, you're gonna tell me that a man whose wife died suddenly, and he feels guilty moving on with a human woman, or can't get over the grief, he can't have a sex robot in his own house? Why not? Who cares? Why do you care?

• 23:26Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's a interesting aspect of human nature. So, you know, we tend to, as a, as a civilization, to create a group that's the other, in all kinds of ways.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:37Lex Fridman?

  And so, you work with animals, too. You're especially sensitive to the suffering of animals. Let me kind of ask, what's your? Do you think we'll abuse robots in the future? Do you think some of the darker aspects of human nature will come out?

• 23:54Speaker 01

  I think some people will, but if we design them properly, the people that do it, we can put it on a record and they can, we can put them in jail. We can find sociopaths more easily, you know, like.

• 24:06Lex Fridman?

  But why is that, why is that a sociopathic thing to harm a robot?

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I think, look, I don't know enough about the consciousness and stuff as you do. I guess it would have to be when they're conscious, but it is, you know, the part of the brain that is, you know, responsible for compassion, the frontal lobe or whatever. Like people that abuse animals also abuse humans and commit other kinds of crimes. Like that's, it's all the same part of the brain. No one abuses animals and then is like awesome to women and children and awesome to underprivileged, you know, minorities, like it's all, so, you know, we've been working really hard to put a database together of all the people that have abused animals. So when they commit another crime, you go, okay, this is, you know, it's all the same stuff. And I think people probably think I'm nuts for the, a lot of the animal work I do. But because when animal abuse is present, another crime is always present.

• 24:55Speaker 01

  But the animal abuse is the most socially acceptable. You can kick a dog and there's nothing people can do, but then what they're doing behind closed doors, you can't see, so there's always something else going on, which is why I never feel compunction about it. But I do think we'll start seeing the same thing with robots. The person that kicks the, I felt compassion when the kicking the dog robot really pissed me off. I know that they're just trying to get the stability right and all that. But I do think there will come a time where that will be a great way to be able to figure out if somebody is, has like, you know, antisocial behaviors.

• 25:32Lex Fridman?

  You kind of mentioned surveillance. It's also a really interesting idea of yours that you just said, you know, a lot of people seem to be really uncomfortable with surveillance.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:41Lex Fridman?

  And you just said that, you know what, for me, you know, there are positives for surveillance.

• 25:48Speaker 01

  I think people behave better when they know they're being watched. And I know this is a very unpopular opinion. I'm talking about it on stage right now. We behave better when we know we're being watched. You and I had a very different conversation before we were recording.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  We behave different. You sit up and you are in your best behavior and I'm trying to sound eloquent and I'm trying to not hurt anyone's feelings and I mean I have a camera right there. I'm behaving totally different than when we first started talking, you know? When you know there's a camera, you behave differently. I mean, there's cameras all over LA at stoplights so that people don't run stoplights, but there's not even film in it. They don't even use them anymore, but it works.

• 26:24Lex Fridman?

  It works.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Right? And I'm, you know, working on this thing in, in stand by surveillance. It's like, that's why we invented Santa Claus. You know, it's the, Santa Claus is the first surveillance, basically. All we had to say to kids is, he's making a list and he's watching you and they behave better.

• 26:39Lex Fridman?

  That's brilliant.

• 26:40Speaker 01

  You know, so I do, I do think that there are benefits to surveillance. You know, I think we all do sketchy things in private and we all have watched weird porn or Googled weird things and we don't, we don't want people to know about it.

• 26:53Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 01

  The, our secret lives. So I do think that obviously there's, we should be able to have a modicum of privacy, but I tend to think that people that are the most negative about surveillance have the most secrets.

• 27:05Lex Fridman?

  The most to hide.

• 27:07Lex Fridman?

  Well, you should, uh, is you, you're saying you're doing bits on it now?

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Well, I'm just talking in general about, you know, privacy and surveillance and how paranoid we're kind of becoming and how, um, you know, I mean, it's, it's just wild to me that people are like, our emails are gonna leak and they're taking our phone numbers. Like there, there used to be a book full of phone numbers and addresses.

• 27:29Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  That were, they just throw it at your door. And we all had a book of everyone's numbers, you know? This is a very new thing and, you know, I know our amygdala is designed to compound sort of threats and, you know, there's stories about, and I think we all just glom on in a very, you know, tribal way of like, yeah, they're taking our data. Like, we don't even know what that means. But we're like, well, yeah, they, they, you know? Um, so I just think that someone's like, okay, well, so what? They're gonna sell your data? Who cares? Why do you care?

• 28:00Lex Fridman?

  First of all, that bit will kill in China. So, and I, I said it sort of only a little bit joking because a lot of people in China, including the citizens, despite what people in the West think of as abuse, are actually in support of the idea of surveillance.

• 28:19Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:20Lex Fridman?

  Sort of, they're not in support of the abuse of surveillance, but they're, they like, I mean, the idea of surveillance is kind of like, The idea of government, like you said, we behave differently. And in a way, it's almost like why we like sports. There's rules and within the constraints of the rules, there is a more stable society. And they make good arguments about success, being able to build successful companies, being able to build successful social lives around a fabric that's more stable. When you have a surveillance, it keeps the criminals away, keeps abusive animals, whatever the values of the society. With surveillance, you can enforce those values better.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  And here's what I will say. There's a lot of unethical things happening with surveillance. Like, I feel the need to really make that very clear. I mean, the fact that Google is like collecting if people's hands start moving on the mouse to find out if they're getting Parkinson's and then their insurance goes up. Like, that is completely unethical and wrong. And I think stuff like that, we have to really be careful around. So the idea of using our data to raise our insurance rates, or, you know, I heard that they're looking, they can sort of predict if you're gonna have depression based on your selfies by detecting micro muscles in your face. You know, all that kind of stuff, that is a nightmare not okay. But I think, you know, we have to delineate what's a real threat and what's getting spam in your email box. That's, that's not what to spend your time and energy on.

• 29:45Speaker 01

  Focus on the fact that every time you buy cigarettes, your insurance is going up without you knowing about it.

• 29:52Lex Fridman?

  On the topic of animals too, can we just linger on a little bit? Like, what do you think? What does it say about our society, of the society-wide abuse of animals that we see in general? Sort of factory farming, just in general, just the way we treat animals of different categories? Like, what, what do you think of that? What does a better world look like? What's, what should people think about it in general?

• 30:20Speaker 01

  I think, um, I think the most interesting thing I can probably say around this that's the least emotional because I'm actually a very not emotional animal person because it's I think everyone's an animal person. It's just a matter of if it's yours or if you've, you know, been conditioned to go numb, you know. I think it's really a testament to what as a species we are able to be in denial about mass denial and mass delusion and how we're able to dehumanize and debase groups, you know, World War II, in a way in order to conform and find protection in the conforming. So we are also a species who used to go to coliseums and watch elephants

• 31:02Speaker 01

  and tigers fight to the death. We used to watch human beings be pulled apart. That wasn't that long ago. We're also a species who had slaves and it was socially acceptable by a lot of people. People didn't see anything wrong with it. So we're a species that is able to go numb and that is able to dehumanize very quickly and make it the norm. Child labor wasn't that long ago. The idea that now we look back and go, oh, yeah, kids were losing fingers in factories making shoes. Like someone had to come in and make that, you know. So I think it just says a lot about the fact that, you know, we are animals

• 31:41Speaker 01

  and we are self-serving and one of the most successful species because we are able to debase and degrade and essentially exploit anything that benefits us. I think the pendulum's going to swing as being like

• 31:56Lex Fridman?

  Which way?

• 31:57Speaker 01

  Like I think we're Rome now, kind of. I think we're on the verge of collapse because we are dopamine receptors. Like we are just, I think we're all kind of addicts when it comes to this stuff. Like we don't know when to stop. It's always the buffet. Like we're the thing that used to keep us alive, which is killing animals and eating them. Now killing animals and eating them is what's killing us in a way. So it's like we just can't, we don't know when to call it and we don't moderation is not really something that humans have evolved to have yet. So I think it's really just a flaw in our wiring.

• 32:30Lex Fridman?

  Do you think we'll look back at this time as at our societies being deeply unethical?

• 32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I think we'll be embarrassed.

• 32:39Lex Fridman?

  Which are the worst parts right now going on? Is it?

• 32:42Speaker 01

  In terms of animal, well, I think-

• 32:43Lex Fridman?

  No, in terms of anything. What's the unethical thing? If we, and it's very hard to take a step out of it, but you just said, we used to watch, you know?

• 32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:53Lex Fridman?

  There's been a lot of cruelty throughout history.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:57Lex Fridman?

  What's the cruelty going on now?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  I think it's gonna be pigs. I think it's gonna be, I mean, pigs are one of the most emotionally intelligent animals, and they have the intelligence of like a three-year-old, and I think we'll look back and be really- there's, they use tools. I mean, they're, I think, we have this narrative that they're pigs, and they're pigs, and they're disgusting, and they're dirty, and their bacon is so good. I think that we'll look back one day and be really embarrassed about that.

• 33:23Lex Fridman?

  Is this for just, what's it called, the factory farming? So basically mass?

• 33:28Speaker 01

  Cause we don't see it. If you saw, I mean, we do have, I mean, this is probably an evolutionary advantage. We do have the ability to completely pretend something's not, something that is so horrific that it overwhelms us, and we're able to essentially deny that it's happening. I think if people were to see what goes on in factory farming, and also were really to take in how bad it is for us, you know, we're hurting ourselves first and foremost with what we eat. But that's also a very elitist argument, you know? It's a luxury to be able to complain about meat. It's a luxury to be able to not eat meat, you know? There's very few people because of, you know, how the corporations have set up meat being cheap.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's $2 to buy a Big Mac, it's $10 to buy a healthy meal. You know, that's, I think a lot of people don't have the luxury to even think that way. But I do think that animals in captivity, I think we're gonna look back and be pretty grossed out about mammals in captivity, whales, dolphins. I mean, that's already starting to dismantle. Circuses, we're gonna be pretty embarrassed about. But I think it's really more a testament to, you know, there's just such a ability to go like, that thing is different.

• 34:41Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  And me, and we're better. It's the ego. I mean, it's just, we have the species with the biggest ego, ultimately.

• 34:45Lex Fridman?

  Well, that's what I think, that's my hope for robots is they'll, you mentioned consciousness before. Nobody knows what consciousness is, but I'm hoping robots will help us empathize and understand that, that there's other creatures out besides ourselves that can suffer. That can-

• 35:09Lex Fridman?

  That can experience the world and that we can torture by our actions. And robots can explicitly teach us that, I think, better than animals can.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  I have never seen such compassion from a lot of people in my life toward any human, animal, child, as I have a lot of people in the way they interact with the robot.

• 35:33Lex Fridman?

  Compassion.

• 35:35Speaker 01

  I think there's something of, I, I mean, I was on the robot owner's chat boards for a good eight months. And the main emotional benefit is she's never gonna cheat on you. She's never gonna hurt you. She's never gonna lie to you. She doesn't judge you. You know, I think that robots help people, and this is part of the work I do with animals. Like I do equine therapy and train dogs and stuff because there is this safe space to be authentic. You're with this being that doesn't care what you do for a living, doesn't care how much money you have, doesn't care who you're dating, doesn't care what you look like, doesn't care if you have cellulite, whatever. You feel safe to be able to truly, you know, be present without being defensive and worrying about eye contact and being triggered by, you know, needing to be perfect

• 36:19Speaker 01

  and fear of judgment and all that. And robots really can't judge you yet.

• 36:25Speaker 01

  But they can't judge you. And I think it really puts people at their, at ease and at their most authentic.

• 36:33Lex Fridman?

  Do you think you can have a deep connection with a robot that's not judging? Or do you think you can really have a relationship with a robot or a human being? That's a safe space? Or is attention, mystery, danger necessary for a deep connection?

• 36:52Speaker 01

  I'm gonna speak for myself and say that I grew up in an alcoholic home. I identify as a codependent. I've talked about this stuff before. But for me, it's very hard to be in a relationship with a human being without feeling like I need to perform in some way or deliver in some way. And I don't know if that's just the people I've been in a relationship with or, or me or my brokenness. But I do think, this is gonna sound really.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Negative and pessimistic, but I do think a lot of our relationships are projection and a lot of our relationships are performance. And I don't think I really understood that until I worked with horses. And most communication with human is nonverbal, right? I can say like, I love you, but you don't think I love you, right? Whereas is with animals, it's very direct. It's all physical. It's all energy. I feel like that with robots too. It feels very, um, uh, what, how I say something doesn't matter. My inflection doesn't really matter. And you thinking that my tone is disrespectful, like you're not filtering it through all of the bad relationships you've been in. You're not filtering it through the way your mom talked to you.

• 38:02Speaker 01

  You're not getting triggered, you know? I find that for the most part, people don't always receive things the way that you intend them to or the way intended. And that makes relationships really murky.

• 38:12Lex Fridman?

  So the relationships with animals and relationship with the robots as they are now, you kind of implied that that's more healthy. Can you have a healthy relationship with other humans? Or not healthy? I don't like that word, but shouldn't it be? You've talked about codependency. Maybe you can talk about what is codependency, but is that, is the, the challenges of that, the complexity of that necessary for passion, for, for love between humans?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  That's right. You love passion. That's a good thing.

• 38:48Lex Fridman?

  I thought this would be a safe space. I got, I got, I got trolled by Rogan for hours on this.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  I, look, I am not anti-passion. I think that I've just maybe been around long enough to know that sometimes it's ephemeral and that passion is a mixture of a lot of different things. Adrenaline, which turns into dopamine, cortisol. It's a lot of neurochemicals. It's a lot of projection. It's a lot of what we've seen in movies. It's a lot of, you know, it's, it's, I identify as an addict. So for me, sometimes passion is like, uh oh, this could be bad. And I think we've been so conditioned to believe that passion means like your soulmates. And I mean, how many times have you had a passionate connection with someone and then it was a total train wreck? Passion.

• 39:35Lex Fridman?

  The train wreck is interesting.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  How many times? Exactly.

• 39:38Lex Fridman?

  What's, what's a train wreck?

• 39:40Speaker 01

  You just did a lot of math in your head in that little moment.

• 39:43Lex Fridman?

  I mean, what's a train wreck? What's a, why is obsession? So you described this codependency and sort of the idea of attachment, over attachment to people who don't deserve that kind of attachment. As somehow a bad thing. And I think our society says it's a bad thing. It probably is a bad thing. Like a, like a delicious burger is a bad thing. I don't know, but.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Right, oh, that's a good point. I think that you're, you're pointing out something really fascinating, which is like, passion, if you go into it knowing this is like pizza where it's going to be delicious for two hours and then I don't have to have it again for three. If, if you can have a choice in the passion, I define passion as something that is relatively unmanageable and something you can't control or stop and start with your own volition. So maybe we're operating under different definitions. If passion is something that like, you know, ruins your marriages and screws up your professional life and becomes this thing that you're not in control of and becomes addictive, I think that's the difference is, is it a choice or is it not a choice? And if it is a choice, then passion's great.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  But if it's something that like consumes you and makes you start making bad decisions and clouds your frontal lobe and is just all about dopamine and not really about the person and more about the neurochemical, we call it sort of the drug, the internal drug cabinet. If it's all just you're on drugs, that's different, you know, because sometimes you're just on drugs.

• 41:11Lex Fridman?

  Okay, so there's a philosophical question here. So would you rather, and it's interesting for a comedian, a brilliant comedian to speak so eloquently about a balanced life. I kind of argue against this point. There's such an obsession of creating this healthy lifestyle now, psychologically speaking. You know, I'm, I'm a fan of the idea that. You sort of fly high and you crash and die at twenty seven. As also a possible life and it's not one we should judge because I think there's moments of greatness. I talked to Olympic athletes where some of their greatest moments are achieved in their early twenties.

• 41:53Lex Fridman?

  And the rest of their life is in a kind of fog of almost of a depression because they can never.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Based on their physical prowess, right?

• 42:01Lex Fridman?

  Physical prowess and they'll never sort of that. So they're watching their physical prowess fade. And they'll never achieve the kind of height, not just physical, of just emotion of.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Max number of neurochemicals.

• 42:18Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  And you also put your money on the wrong horse. That's where I would, I would just go like, oh yeah. If you're doing a job where you peak at twenty two.

• 42:26Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  The rest of your life is going to be hard.

• 42:29Lex Fridman?

  That idea is considering the notion that you want to optimize some kind of, but we're all going to die soon.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  What?

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Now you tell me. I've immortalized myself, so I'm gonna be fine.

• 42:43Lex Fridman?

  See, you're almost like, how many Oscar winning movies can I direct? By the time I'm one hundred, how many this and that like, but you know, there's a night, you know, it's all, life is short. Relatively speaking.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  I know, but it can also come at different, but you go, life is short, play hard, fall in love as much as you can, run into walls. I would also go, life is short, don't deplete yourself on things that aren't sustainable and that you can't keep.

• 43:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 43:13Speaker 01

  You know, so I think everyone gets dopamine from different places. Everyone has meaning from different places. I look at the fleeting passionate relationships I've had in the past and I don't like, I don't have pride in that. I think that you have to decide what, you know, helps you sleep at night. For me, it's pride and feeling like I behave with grace and integrity. That's just me personally. Everyone can go like, yeah, slept with all the hot chicks in Italy I could. And I, you know, did all the whatever, like whatever you value, we're allowed to value different things.

• 43:43Lex Fridman?

  We're talking about Brian Callen.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Ryan Callan has lived his life to the fullest, to say the least. But I think that it's just for me personally, I, and this could be like my workaholism or my achievement-ism, I, if I don't have something to show for something, I feel like it's a waste of time or some kind of loss. I'm in a 12-step program and the third step would say, there's no such thing as waste of time and everything happens exactly as it should and whatever, that's a way to just sort of keep us sane so we don't grieve too much and beat ourselves up over our past mistakes. There's no such thing as mistakes, da-da-da. But I think passion is, I think it's so life-affirming and one of the few things that maybe people like

• 44:29Speaker 01

  us, makes us feel awake and seen and we just have such a high threshold for adrenaline. You know, I mean, you are a fighter, right? Yeah, okay, so, yeah, so you have a very high tolerance for adrenaline. And I think that Olympic athletes, the amount of adrenaline they get from performing, it's very hard to follow that. It's like when guys come back from the military and they have depression. It's like, do you miss bullets flying out you? Yeah, kind of, because of that adrenaline which turned into dopamine and the camaraderie. I mean, there's people that speak much better about this than I do. But I just, I'm obsessed with neurology and I'm just obsessed with sort of the lies we tell ourselves in order to justify getting neurochemicals.

• 45:14Lex Fridman?

  You've done actually quite, done a lot of thinking and talking about neurology and just kind of look at human behavior through the lens of looking at how actually chemically our brain works. So what, first of all, why did you connect with that idea and what have you, how has your view of the world changed by considering the brain is just a machine?

• 45:39Speaker 01

  You know, I know it probably sounds really nihilistic, but for me, it's very liberating to know a lot about neurochemicals because you don't have to, it's like the same thing with like, like critics, like critical reviews. If you believe the good, you have to believe the bad, kind of thing. Like, you know, if you believe that your bad choices were because of your... Moral integrity or whatever, you have to believe you're good ones. I just think there's something really liberating and going like, oh, that was just adrenaline. I just said that thing because I was adrenalized and I was scared. And my amygdala was activated and that's why I said, you're an asshole and get out. And that's, you know, I think, I just think it's important to delineate what's nature and what's nurture. What is your choice and what is just your brain trying to keep you safe? I think we forget that even though we have security systems and homes and locks on our doors,

• 46:23Speaker 01

  that our brain, for the most part, is just trying to keep us safe all the time. It's why we hold grudges, it's why we get angry, it's why we get road rage, it's why we do a lot of things. And it's also, when I started learning about neurology, I started having so much more compassion for other people. You know, if someone yelled at me, being like, fuck you on the road, I'd be like, okay, he's producing adrenaline right now. Because we're all going 65 miles an hour and our brains aren't really designed for this type of stress. And he's scared, he was scared, you know, so that really helped me to have more love for people in my everyday life. Um, instead of being in fight or flight mode. But, um, the, I think more interesting answer to your question is that I've had migraines my whole life.

• 47:02Speaker 01

  Like I've suffered with really intense migraines, um, ocular migraines, ones where my arm would go numb. And I just started, I'm going to go to so many doctors to learn about it. And I started, you know, learning that we don't really know that much. We know a lot, but it's wild to go into one of the best neurologists in the world who's like, yeah, we don't know.

• 47:22Lex Fridman?

  We don't know.

• 47:23Speaker 01

  We don't know. And that fascinated me.

• 47:25Lex Fridman?

  It's like one of the worst pains you can probably have, all that stuff, and we don't know the source.

• 47:30Speaker 01

  We don't know the source and there is something really fascinating about when your left arm starts going numb and you start not being able to see out of the left side of both your eyes. And I remember when the migraines get really bad, it's like a mini stroke almost, and you're able to see words on a page, but I can't read them. They just look like symbols to me. So there's something just really fascinating to me about your brain just being able to stop functioning. And I, so I just wanted to learn about it, study about it. Um, I did all these weird alternative treatments. I got this piercing in here that actually works. I've tried everything. And then both of my parents had strokes. So when both of my parents had strokes, I became sort of the person who had to decide what. Was gonna happen with their recovery, which is just a wild thing to have to deal with it.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  You know, 28 years old, um, when it happened and I started spending basically all day, every day in ICUs with neurologists, learning about what happened to my dad's brain and why he can't move his left arm, but he can move his right leg, but he can't see out of the, you know? And then my mom had another stroke, um, in a different part of the brain. So I started having to learn what parts of the brain did what and so that I wouldn't take their behavior so personally and so that I would be able to manage my expectations in terms of their recovery. So my mom, because it affected a lot of her frontal lobe, changed a lot as a person. She was way more emotional, she was way more micromanaged, she was forgetting certain things. So it broke my heart less when I was able to know, oh yeah, well, the stroke hit this part of the brain

• 48:58Speaker 01

  and that's the one that's responsible for short-term memory and that's responsible for long-term memory, da-da-da. And then my brother just got something called viral encephalitis, which is an infection inside the brain. So it was kind of wild that I was able to go, oh, I know exactly what's happening here and I know, you know, so, um.

• 49:16Lex Fridman?

  So that's allows you to have some more compassion for the struggles that people have. But does it take away some of the magic for some of the, uh, from the, some of the more positive experiences of life?

• 49:27Speaker 01

  Sometimes. Sometimes, and I don't, I don't, I'm such a control addict that, you know, I think our biggest, someone like me, my biggest dream is to know why someone's doing it. That's what stand-up is, is just trying to figure out why, or that's what writing is, that's what acting is, that's what performing is, is trying to figure out why someone would do something. As an actor, you get a piece of, you know, material and you go, this person, why would he say that? Why would he, she pick up that cup? Why would she walk over here? It's really why, why, why, why? So I think neurology is, if you're trying to figure out human motives and why people do what they do, it'd be crazy not to understand how neurochemicals motivate us. I also have a lot of addiction in my family and, um, hardcore drug addiction and mental illness. And in order to cope with it, you really have to understand it.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Borderline personality disorder, schizophrenia and drug addiction. So I have a lot of people I love that suffer from drug addiction and alcoholism. And the first thing they started teaching you is it's not a choice. These people's dopamine receptors don't hold dopamine the same ways yours do. Their frontal lobe is underdeveloped, like, you know? And that really helped me to navigate dealing, loving people that were addicted to substances.

• 50:37Lex Fridman?

  I want to be careful with this question, but how much?

• 50:41Speaker 01

  Money do you have?

• 50:42Lex Fridman?

  How much? Can I borrow $10?

• 50:47Lex Fridman?

  Okay. No, is how much control? How much despite the chemical imbalances? Or the biological limitations that each of our individual brains have? How much mind over matter is there? So through things that I've known people with clinical depression. And so it's always a touchy subject to say how much they can really help it.

• 51:14Speaker 01

  Very.

• 51:16Lex Fridman?

  What can you? Yeah. What can you? Because you've talked about codependency, you've talked about issues that you're struggled through. And nevertheless, you choose to take a journey of healing and so on. So that's your choice. That's your actions. So how much can you do to help fight the limitations of the neurochemicals in your brain?

• 51:36Speaker 01

  That's such an interesting question. And I don't think I'm at all qualified to answer it, but I'll say what I do know. And really quick, just the definition of codependency. I think a lot of people think of codependency as like two people that can't stop hanging out. You know, or like, you know, that's not totally off, but I think for the most part, my favorite definition of codependency is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others. You grow up in an alcoholic home. You grow up around mental illness. You grow up in chaos. You have a parent that's a narcissist. You basically are wired to just people, please worry about others, be perfect, walk on eggshells, shapeshift to accommodate other people. So codependence is a very active wiring issue that, you know,

• 52:20Speaker 01

  doesn't just affect your romantic relationships. It affects you being a boss. It affects you in the world, online. You know, you get one negative comment and it throws you for two weeks. You know, it also is linked to eating disorders and other kinds of addiction. So it's. It's a very big thing. And I think a lot of people sometimes only think that it's in romantic relationships. So I always feel the need to say that. And also, one of the reasons I love the idea of robots so much, because you don't have to walk on eggshells around them. You don't have to worry they're going to get mad at you yet. But you, there's no, codependents are hypersensitive to the needs and moods of others. And it's very exhausting. It's depleting. Just one conversation about where we're going to go to dinner is

• 53:02Speaker 01

  like, do you want to go get Chinese food? We just had Chinese food. Well, wait, are you mad? Well, no, I didn't mean to. And it's just like, that codependents live in this, everything means something. And humans can be very emotionally exhausting. Why did you look at me that way? What are you thinking about? What was that? Why'd you check your phone? It's just, it's a hypersensitivity that can be incredibly time consuming, which is why I love the idea of robots just subbing in. Even, I've had a hard time running TV shows and stuff, because even asking someone to do something, I don't want to come off like a bitch. I'm very concerned about what other people think of me, how I'm perceived. Which is why I think robots will be very beneficial for, for codependents.

• 53:40Lex Fridman?

  By the way, just a real quick tangent, that skill, or flaw, whatever you want to call it, is actually really useful for, if you ever do start your own podcast, for interviewing. Because you're now kind of obsessed about the mindset of others. And it makes you a good, sort of, listener and talker with. So I think, what's her name from NPR?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Terry Gross.

• 54:05Lex Fridman?

  Terry Gross talked about having that. So.

• 54:08Speaker 01

  I don't feel like she has that at all.

• 54:10Lex Fridman?

  Was.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  What?

• 54:12Lex Fridman?

  But.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  She worries about other people's feelings?

• 54:16Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't get that at all.

• 54:20Lex Fridman?

  I mean, you have to put yourself in the mind of the person you're spoken.

• 54:23Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, I see. Just in terms of, yeah, I am starting a podcast. And the reason I haven't is because I'm codependent, and I'm too worried it's not going to be perfect.

• 54:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  So, a big codependent adage is perfectionism leads to procrastination, which leads to paralysis.

• 54:37Lex Fridman?

  So how do you, sorry to take a million tangents, how do you survive on social media? Is he exceptionally active?

• 54:41Speaker 01

  But by the way, I took you on a tangent and didn't answer your last question about how much we can control.

• 54:46Lex Fridman?

  I want you, yeah, we'll return it, or maybe not. The answer is we can't.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Now it's a codependent, I'm, okay. We can, but, but, you know, one of the things that I'm fascinated by is, you know, the first thing you learn when you go into 12 step programs, or addiction recovery, any of this, is, you know, genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. And there's certain parts of your genetics you cannot control. I come from a lot of alcoholism. I come from, uh, uh, you know, a lot of mental illness. There's certain things I cannot control, and a lot of things that maybe we don't even know yet what we can and can't because of how little we actually know about the brain. But we also talk about the warrior spirit. And there are some people that have that warrior spirit, and we don't necessarily know what that engine is, whether it's you get dopamine from succeeding,

• 55:34Speaker 01

  or achieving, or martyring yourself, or, or that tension you get from growing. So a lot of people are like, oh, this person can edify themselves and overcome. But if you're getting attention from improving yourself, you're going to keep wanting to do that. So that is something that helps a lot of, in terms of changing your brain. If you talk about changing your brain to people, and talk about what you're doing to overcome set obstacles, you're going to get more attention from them, which is going to fire off your reward system, and then you're going to keep doing it.

• 56:04Lex Fridman?

  See, yeah, so you can leverage that momentum.

• 56:07Speaker 01

  So this is why in any 12 step program, you go into a room and you talk about your progress, because then everyone claps for you. And then you're more motivated to keep going. So that's why we say you're only as sick as the secrets you keep. Because if you keep things secret, you know, there's no one guiding you to go in a certain direction. It's based on, right, we're sort of designed to get approval from the tribe, or from a group of people, because our brain, you know, translates it to safety. So.

• 56:32Lex Fridman?

  And in that case, the tribe is a positive one, that helps you go the positive direction.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  So that's why it's so important to go into a room and also say, hey, I wanted to use drugs today. And people go, hmm. They go, me too. And you feel less alone, and you feel less like you're, you know, have been castigated from the pack, or whatever. And then you say, and I haven't, you get a chip when you haven't drank for 30 days, or 60 days, or whatever. You get little rewards.

• 56:55Lex Fridman?

  So talking about a pack that's not at all healthy or good, but in fact is often toxic, social media. So you're one of my favorite people on Twitter and Instagram, to, uh, sort of just both the comedy and the insight and just fun. How do you prevent social media from destroying your mental health?

• 57:14Speaker 01

  I haven't.

• 57:16Speaker 01

  I haven't. It's the next big epidemic, isn't it?

• 57:22Speaker 01

  I don't think I have. I don't, I don't think.

• 57:25Lex Fridman?

  Is moderation the answer? What?

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Maybe, but you can do a lot of damage in a moderate way. I mean, I guess, again, it depends on your goals, you know? And, and I think for me, the way that my addiction to social media, I'm happy to call it an addiction. I mean, and I define it as an addiction because it stops being a choice. There are times I just reach over and like, that was.

• 57:46Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that was weird.

• 57:46Speaker 01

  Well, that was weird. I'll be driving sometimes and I'll be like, oh my God, my arm just went to my phone, you know? I can put it down. I can take time away from it, but when I do, I get antsy.

• 57:57Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  I get restless, irritable and discontent. I mean, that's kind of the definition, isn't it? So I think by no means, do I have a healthy relationship with social media? I'm sure there's a way to, but I think I'm especially a weirdo in this space because it's easy to conflate. Is this work? Is this not? I can always say that it's for work.

• 58:17Lex Fridman?

  Right.

• 58:18Speaker 01

  You know?

• 58:18Lex Fridman?

  But I mean, you're, don't you get the same kind of thing as you get from when a room full of people laugh? Your jokes? Cause you, I mean, I see, especially the way you do Twitter, it's an extension of your comedy in a way. So.

• 58:30Speaker 01

  I took a big break from Twitter though. A really big break. I took like six months off or something for a while because it was just like, it seemed like it was all kind of politics and it was just a little bit, it wasn't giving me dopamine because there was like this weird, a lot of feedback. So I did take a break from it and then go back to it because I felt like I didn't have a healthy relationship.

• 58:50Lex Fridman?

  Have you ever tried the, I don't know if I believe him, but Joe Rogan seems to not read comments. Have you, and he's one of the only people at the scale, like at your level, who at least claims not to read. So like, cause you and him swim in this

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:07Lex Fridman?

  space of tense ideas.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:11Lex Fridman?

  That get, uh, get, get the, uh, toxic folks riled up.

• 59:15Speaker 01

  I think Rogue, I don't, I don't know, I don't, mm, I think he probably looks at YouTube, like the likes and that, you know, I think if some things, if he doesn't know, I don't know, I'm sure he would tell the tru- truth, you know?

• 59:30Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 59:30Speaker 01

  I'm sure he's got people that look at them and is like disgusted great, or they don't, you know, like I'm sure he gets it, you know, I, I can't picture him like in the weeds on.

• 59:40Lex Fridman?

  No, for sure. I mean, he's honestly actually saying that, I just, it's, it's a, it's admirable.

• 59:45Speaker 01

  Feedback, we're addicted to feedback. Yeah, we're addicted to feedback. I mean, you know, look, like, I think that our brain is designed to get intel on how we're perceived, so that we know where we stand, right? That's our whole deal, right? As humans, we want to know where we stand. We walk into a room and we go, who's the most powerful person in here? I gotta talk to them and get in their good graces. It's just, we're designed to rank ourselves, right? And constantly know our rank. And social media because of, you can't figure out your rank with 500 million people. It's possible, you know, so our brain is like, what's my rank? What's my, and especially if we're following people. I think the, the big, the interesting thing I think I maybe be able, able to say about this,

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  besides my speech impediment, is that I did start muting people that rank wildly higher than me, because it is just stressful on the brain to constantly look at people that are incredibly successful, so you keep feeling bad about yourself, you know? I think that that is like cutting to a certain extent. Just like, look at me looking at all these people that have so much more money than me and so much more success than me. It's making me feel like a failure, even though I don't think I'm a failure, but it's easy to frame it so that I can feel that way.

• 1:00:58Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, that's really interesting, especially if they're close to, like if there are other comedians or something like that, or whatever. That's, it's, it's really disappointing to me. I, I do the same thing as well. So other successful people that are really close to what I do, it, um... I don't know. I wish I could just admire.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:15Lex Fridman?

  And for it not to be a distraction, but.

• 1:01:18Speaker 01

  But that's why you are where you are because you don't just admire, you're competitive and you want to win. So it's also the same thing that bums you out when you look at this is the same reason you are where you are. So that's why I think it's so important to learn about neurology and addiction because you're able to go like, oh, this same instinct. So I'm very sensitive. And I, and I sometimes don't like that about myself, but I'm like, well, that's the reason I'm able to write good stand up and that's the reason, and that's the reason I'm able to be sensitive to feedback and go, that joke should have been better. I can make that better. So it's the kind of thing where it's like, you have to be really sensitive in your work. And the second you leave, you got to be able to turn it off. It's about developing the muscle, being able to know when to let it be a superpower and when it's going to hold you back and be an obstacle. So I try to not be in that black and white of like,

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  you know, being competitive is bad or being jealous of someone, just to go like, oh, there's that thing that makes me really successful in a lot of other ways. But right now it's making me feel bad.

• 1:02:10Lex Fridman?

  Well, I'm kind of looking to you because you're, you're basically a celebrity, a famous sort of world-class comedian. And so I feel like you're the right person to be one of the key people to define what's the healthy path forward with social media. So I, because we're all trying to figure it out now and it's, I'm curious to see where it evolves. I think you're at the center of that. So like, you know, there's, you know, trying to leave Twitter and then come back and see, can I do this in a healthy way? I mean, you have to keep trying, exploring.

• 1:02:42Speaker 01

  You have to know because it's being, you know, I have a couple of answers. I think, you know, I hire a company to do some of my social media for me, you know? So it's also being able to go, okay, I make a certain amount of money by doing this, but now let me be a good business person and say, I'm going to pay you this amount to run this for me. So I'm not 24 seven in the weeds, hashtagging and responding. And just, it's a lot to take on. It's a lot of energy to take on. But at the same time, part of what. I think makes me successful on social media if I am is that people know I'm actually doing it and that I am engaging and I'm responding and developing a personal relationship with complete strangers. So I think, you know, figuring out that balance and really approaching it as a business, you know, that's what I try to do. It's not dating, it's not, I try

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  to just be really objective about, okay, here's what's working, here's what's not working. And in terms of taking the break from Twitter, this is a really savage take, but because I don't talk about my politics publicly, being on Twitter right after the last election was not going to be beneficial because there was going to be, you had to take a side. You had to be political in order to get any kind of retweets or likes. And I just wasn't interested in doing that because you were going to lose as many people as you were going to gain and it was going to all come clean in the wash. So I was just like, the best thing I can do for me business-wise is to just abstain, you know? And, you know, the robot, I joke about her replacing me, but she does do half of my social media, you

• 1:04:11Speaker 01

  know?

• 1:04:12Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Because it's, I don't want people to get sick of me. I don't want to be redundant. There are times when I don't have the time or the energy to make a funny video, but I know she's going to be compelling and interesting and that's something that you can't see every day, you know?

• 1:04:25Lex Fridman?

  Of course, the humor comes from your, I mean, the cleverness, the wit, the humor comes from you when you film the robot. That's kind of the trick of it. I mean, the robot is not quite there to make anything, to do anything funny. The absurdity is revealed through the filmmaker in that case, or whoever is interacting, not through the, the actual robot, you know, being who she is. Let me sort of, love. Okay.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  What is it?

• 1:04:57Lex Fridman?

  What is it? Well, first, an engineering question. I know, I know, you're not an engineer. But how difficult do you think is it to build an AI system that you can have a deep, fulfilling, monogamous relationship with? Sort of replace the human-to-human relationships that we value?

• 1:05:18Speaker 01

  I think anyone can fall in love with anything. You know, like, how often have you looked back at someone? Like, I ran into someone the other day that I was in love with, and I was like, hey! It was like, there was nothing there.

• 1:05:32Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  There was nothing there. Like, do you, you know, like, where you're able to go like, oh, that was weird, oh, right. You know? I, I were able-

• 1:05:41Lex Fridman?

  You mean from a distant past, or something like that?

• 1:05:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you're able to go like, I can't believe we had an incredible connection, and now it's just... I do think that people will be in love with robots, probably even more deeply with humans, because it's like when people mourn their animals, when their animals die. They're always, it's sometimes harder than mourning a human, because you can't go, well, he was kind of an asshole. But like, he didn't pick me up from school. You know, it's like you're able to get out of your grief a little bit, you're able to kind of be, oh, he was kind of judgmental, or she was kind, you know? With a robot, it's, there's something so pure about, and innocent, and impish, and childlike about it, that I think it probably will be much more conducive to a narcissistic love, for sure, at that.

• 1:06:29Speaker 01

  But it's not like, well, he cheated, she can't cheat, she can't leave you, she can't, you know?

• 1:06:34Lex Fridman?

  Well, if Bear Claw leaves your life, and maybe a new version, or somebody else will enter, will you miss Bear Claw?

• 1:06:44Speaker 01

  For guys that have these sex robots, they're building a nursing home for the bodies

• 1:06:50Lex Fridman?

  Wow.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  that are now resting, because they don't want to part with the bodies, because they have such an intense emotional connection to it. I mean, it's kind of like a car club, a little bit, you know, like it's, you know, but I'm not saying this is right. I'm not saying it's cool. It's weird. It's creepy. But we do anthropomorphize things with faces and we do develop emotional connections to things. I mean, there's certain, have you ever tried to like throw, I can't even throw away my teddy bear from when I was a kid. It's a piece of trash and it's upstairs. Like, it's just like, why can't I throw that away? It's bizarre, you know, and there's something kind of beautiful about that. There's something, it gives me hope in, in humans because I see humans do such horrific things all the time. And maybe I'm too, I

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  see too much of it frankly, but there's something kind of beautiful about the way we're able to have emotional connections to objects, which, you know, a lot of, I mean, it's, I can't, kind of specifically, I think, Western, right, that we don't see objects as having souls. Like, that's kind of specifically us. But I don't think it's so much that we're objectifying humans with these sex robots. We're kind of humanizing objects, right? So there's something kind of fascinating in our ability to do that because a lot of us don't humanize humans. So it's just a weird little place to play in. And I think a lot of people, I mean, a lot of people will be marrying these things, is my guess.

• 1:08:14Lex Fridman?

  So you've asked the question. Let me ask it of you. So what is love? You have a bit of a brilliant definition of love as being willing to die for someone who you yourself want to kill. So that's, that's, that's kind of fun. First of all, that's brilliant. That's a really good definition. I think it'll stick with me for a long time.

• 1:08:34Speaker 01

  This is how little of a romantic I am. A plane went by when you said that and my brain is like, you're gonna need to re-record that. And I want you to get into post and then not be able to use that.

• 1:08:47Lex Fridman?

  And I'm a romantic as I-

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  Don't mean to ruin the moment.

• 1:08:50Lex Fridman?

  Actually, I cannot be conscious of the fact that I heard the plane and it made me feel like how amazing it is that we live in a world with planes.

• 1:08:59Speaker 01

  And I just went, why haven't we fucking evolved past planes? And why can't they make them quieter?

• 1:09:05Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  But yes.

• 1:09:08Lex Fridman?

  This.

• 1:09:10Speaker 01

  My definition of love?

• 1:09:11Lex Fridman?

  What, yeah, what's your sort of a more serious note?

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Consistently producing dopamine for a long time.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  Consistent output of oxytocin with the same person.

• 1:09:22Lex Fridman?

  Dopamine is a positive thing. What about the negative? What about the fear and the insecurity? The longing?

• 1:09:31Lex Fridman?

  Uh, anger, all that kind of stuff.

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  I think that's part of love, you know? I think you don't, I think that love brings out the best in you, but it also, if you don't get angry and upset, it's, you know, I don't know. I think that that's, that's part of it. I think we have this idea that love has to be like really, you know, placid or something. I only saw stormy relationships growing up, so I don't, I don't have a judgment on how a relationship should look. But I do think that this idea that love has to be eternal is, is really destructive. Is really destructive and self-defeating and a big source of stress for people. I mean, I'm still figuring out love. I think we all kind of are, but I do kind of stand by that definition.

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  And I think that, uh, I think for me, love is like just being able to be authentic with somebody. It's very simple, I know, but I think for me, it's about not feeling pressure to have to perform or impress somebody. Just feeling truly like accepted unconditionally by someone. Although I do believe love should be conditional. That might be a hot take. I think everything should be conditional. I think if, uh, someone's behavior, I don't think love should just be like, I'm in love with you. Now behave however you want forever. This is unconditional. I think love is a daily action. It's not something you just like get tenure on and then get to behave however you want. Cause we said, I love you 10 years ago. It's a daily, it's a verb.

• 1:11:01Lex Fridman?

  Well, there's some things that are, you see, if you make it, if you explicitly make it clear that it's conditional, it takes away some of the magic of it. So there's certain stories we tell ourselves that we don't want to make explicit about love. I don't know, maybe that's the wrong way to think of it. Maybe you want to be explicit in relationships.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  I also think love is a business decision. Like I do in a good way, like. I think that love is not just when you're across from somebody. It's when I go to work, can I focus? Do I, am I worried about you? Am I stressed out about you? Am I, you're not responding to me? You're not reliable? Like, I think that being in a relationship, the kind of love that I would want is the kind of relationship where when we're not together, it's not draining me, causing me stress, making me worry. You know, and sometimes passion, that word, you know, we get murky about it. But I think it's also like, I can be the best version of myself when the person's not around. And I don't have to feel abandoned or scared or any of these kind of other things.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  So it's like, love, you know, for me, I think is, I think it's a Flaubert quote. And I'm gonna butcher it, but I think it's like, be, you know, boring in your personal life. So you can be violent and take risks in your professional life. Is that it? I got it wrong. Something like that. But I do think that it's being able to align values in a way to where you can also thrive outside of the relationship.

• 1:12:21Lex Fridman?

  Some of the most successful people I know are those sort of happily married and have kids and so on. It's always funny.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  It can be boring. Boring's okay. Boring is serenity.

• 1:12:31Lex Fridman?

  And it's funny how that, those elements actually make you much more productive. I don't understand the.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  I don't think relationships should drain you and take away energy that you could be using to create things that generate pride.

• 1:12:42Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  Did you say your relationship of love yet?

• 1:12:44Lex Fridman?

  Huh?

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  Have you said your relation, your definition of love?

• 1:12:48Lex Fridman?

  My definition of love? Uh, no, I did not say it. We're out of time.

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:12:55Lex Fridman?

  Do, when you have, when you have a podcast, maybe you can invite me on.

• 1:12:58Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I already did. You're doing it. We've already talked about this.

• 1:13:02Lex Fridman?

  Um, and because I also have codependency, I have to say yes.

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  No, yeah, thank you. Yeah, no, I know, I'm trapping you. You owe me now.

• 1:13:09Lex Fridman?

  Actually, what the, I wondered whether when I, I asked if we could talk today.

• 1:13:17Lex Fridman?

  After sort of doing more research and reading some of your book, I started to wonder, did she just feel pressured to say yes?

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Yes, of course.

• 1:13:26Lex Fridman?

  Good.

• 1:13:26Speaker 01

  But I'm a fan of yours too.

• 1:13:27Lex Fridman?

  Okay.

• 1:13:27Speaker 01

  No, I actually, because I am codependent, but I'm in recovery for codependence. So I actually do, I don't do anything I don't want to do.

• 1:13:34Lex Fridman?

  You really, you got it, you already say no.

• 1:13:37Speaker 01

  What's that? I say no all the time.

• 1:13:39Lex Fridman?

  Good, I'm trying to learn that as well.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  I moved this a couple, remember I moved it from one to two?

• 1:13:42Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, yeah. Just to, yeah, just to.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, just to let you know how recovered I am. And I'm not codependent, but I, I don't do anything I don't want to do.

• 1:13:51Lex Fridman?

  Yeah, you're ahead of me on that. Okay. So.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  You're like, I don't even want to be here.

• 1:13:57Lex Fridman?

  Do you think about your mortality?

• 1:14:00Speaker 01

  Yes, it is a big part of how I was able to sort of like kickstart my codependence recovery. My dad passed a couple of years ago, and when you have someone close to you in your life die, everything gets real clear in terms of how we're a speck of dust, who's only here for a certain amount of time.

• 1:14:17Lex Fridman?

  What do you think is the meaning of it all? Like what the speck of dust, what, what's, uh, maybe in your own life, what's the goal? The purpose of your existence?

• 1:14:30Speaker 01

  Is there one?

• 1:14:32Lex Fridman?

  Well, you, you're exceptionally ambitious. You've created some incredible things in different disciplines.

• 1:14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, we're all just managing our terror because we know we're going to die. So we create and build all these things and rituals and religions and, you know, robots and whatever we need to do to just distract ourselves from imminent rotting. We're rotting?

• 1:14:52Lex Fridman?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:53Speaker 01

  We're all dying and, you know, I, I, you know, I got very into terror management theory when my dad died and, and it resonated. It helped me and everyone's got their own religion or sense of purpose or thing that distracts them from the horrors of being human.

• 1:15:11Lex Fridman?

  What's the terror management theory?

• 1:15:12Speaker 01

  Terror management is basically the idea that since we're the only animal that knows they're gonna die, we have to basically distract ourselves with awards and achievements and games and whatever, just in order to distract ourselves from the terror we would feel if we really processed the fact that we could not only, we are gonna die, but also could die at any minute because we're only superficially at the top of the food chain. And, you know, technically, we're the top of the food chain if we have houses and guns and stuff, machines, but if me and a lion are in the woods together, most things could kill us. I mean, a bee can kill some people, like something this big can kill a lot of humans.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  You know, so it's basically just to manage the terror that we all would feel if we were able to really be awake, because we're mostly zombies, right? Job, school, religion, go to sleep, drink, football, relationship, dopamine, you know, we're kind of just like trudging along like zombies for the most part. And then I think-

• 1:16:16Lex Fridman?

  That fear of death adds some motivation.

• 1:16:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:16:19Lex Fridman?

  Well, I think I speak for a lot of people in saying that I can't wait to see what your terror creates in the next few years. I'm a huge fan, Whitney. Thank you so much for talking today.

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 1:16:35Lex Fridman?

  Thanks for listening to this conversation with Whitney Cummings. And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App. Download it and use code LexPodcast. You'll get $10 and $10 will go to First, a STEM education nonprofit that inspires hundreds of thousands of young minds to learn and to dream of engineering our future. If you enjoy this podcast, subscribe on YouTube, give it five stars on Apple Podcasts, support it on Patreon, or connect with me on Twitter. Thank you for listening and I hope to see you next time.