Let's Talk Pronunciation, Merch, the Odyssey, Heracles vs. 100 Gorillas (Anniversary Q&A pt.2)

The podcast's EIGHT year anniversary is upon us so Liv answers listener questions about any and everything including the most important question: who would win in a fight, Heracles or 100 gorillas? Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. I try to provide direct warnings when there is reference to anything with overtly traumatic themes but be aware that Greek mythology regularly features assault, death, and many other potentially triggering events. Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions. Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand). Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Liv Albert?

  Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful, and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com grouptrip.

• 0:43Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Addition terms apply for all offers.

• 1:13Speaker 02

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals, no kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to build Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 2:10Liv Albert?

  Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv, here with more answers to your questions. So as always, on Tuesday, I, you know, um, took forever to answer questions that probably didn't need to take forever to answer. But it's just so interesting to talk about this stuff and it's all so complex. And that's all to say, I'm just really thankful, um, that I have so many amazing listeners who, who want to listen. I've gotten a couple funny slash bad, but mostly funny comments, um, on Spotify

• 2:50Liv Albert?

  episodes recently where dudes will go back to like the first, it's always the first, like 10 episodes. So I'm like, first and foremost, eight years ago, happy eight years of Let's Talk About Myths, baby. Um, but also then they'll, they'll just come in with like, oh, it's, I feel like genuinely guilty being a man and listening to you, like not all men. And I just, I just think it's so funny that, that that argument still exists, like obviously it still exists within conservative men and

• 3:32Liv Albert?

  whatever, but like the type of men who are otherwise happy to consume my content. I just find it so interesting. And because of that, before we dive into the questions, I just want to like, I guess, give a explanation of why this idea of not all men is not helpful and not accurate, like, and it doesn't mean that like every individual man is an individual problem, like that's not the point, not all sharks, right? Not all bears. Um, but all sharks have the potential and all bears have the potential to do that kind of damage.

• 4:17Liv Albert?

  And when we're talking about a system and like, okay, let's keep it just in the mythology, because that's what I do, right?

• 4:27Liv Albert?

  When we're talking about a culture and a mythology that existed, you know, at such an early point and is credited for like being the foundation quote unquote of quote unquote western civilization, right? Like it is, it is regularly lauded as the foundation for our entire society. And when that foundation is built on stories where men

• 4:59Liv Albert?

  use the bodies of women in order to continue on with the cultural like story, like that's an issue and it doesn't, it doesn't like mean also that we shouldn't love this mythos because it's incredible and it's wide ranging. And the easiest and simplest thing to do if you're kind of like battling this feeling of like, how do I love this when it is built on so much damage and so much like danger is that there were other people back then and they, their like opinions and

• 5:39Liv Albert?

  their stories might not have been written down, but they existed. And so like, it doesn't mean that the mythology is all bad, obviously. I fucking love it more than life itself. It just means we have to pick apart these aspects of it and look closer. Like we, like I do all the time, we pick apart this idea of like Zeus quote unquote seducing a woman or like carrying someone off like, or those, the, the people who argue about the like origins of the word rape. And we just look at the fact that like, the reason why these things weren't seen as bad back then was because women were property, not people. And because it was about property damage and the stealing

• 6:23Liv Albert?

  and like desecrating, for lack of a better word of like property. And that is all factual and it it absolutely falls on the men and like no, not every individual ancient man, just like not every individual man today. But every man benefits from a society that privileges men over anyone else. Every man benefits from that. And that's why this idea of not all men doesn't matter. It doesn't make sense because yeah, like no one's saying that every individual man is going to do something dangerous or something violent.

• 7:04Liv Albert?

  But every, every man does benefit from this society that privileges maleness, that privileges male bodies and male, like everything, right? Like, anyway, I, I didn't plan for that to start this off, but I just keep thinking about these comments I receive because I just think there's this enormous disconnect between a type of man who considers himself like an ally and one of the good ones, but still can't see why not all men is a dangerous argument and why it's doesn't actually mean anything. Um, and so I just thought, you know, for you dudes who are listening to me and I love

• 7:48Liv Albert?

  you for that, but I need you to understand why, why the argument of not all men doesn't, doesn't work, doesn't pass a test and it makes you look like you're not paying attention. Because the whole system is set up for you. The entire system, the medical system, the political system, the democratic system, every system was made for you and all of history up until a point was, was recorded in your image and with you as the main character and the rest of us are, are side characters. And that's why, that's why all men, not all men have the capability to do violence or

• 8:31Liv Albert?

  want to or anything, but all men benefit from that system of violence.

• 8:37Liv Albert?

  And we're seven minutes in, but the world is on fire and I have things to say. So, so it's my birthday, um, tomorrow when, when this episode comes out. And so I reserve the right to start an episode with a lecture. Um, thanks for listening.

• 9:12Liv Albert?

  Let's talk pronunciation, merch, The Odyssey, Heracles versus 100 gorillas. This is eight years of Let's Talk About Mitsbaby.

• 9:37Liv Albert?

  All right. Okay. So to the actual questions and I'm so excited. I actually have three voicemail questions from listeners. Remember I set up this voicemail server, um, so you guys can send in your questions that way so that I can play them on the show and answer them, um, more directly. And that's super fun and I'm really excited about it, but I only have three. So three are going in here, but I would love if you sent me more. Um, so those will be peppered throughout. Otherwise though, we are starting with the good old text questions. All right. This first one is from Jessie and we're starting out with, um, something a little silly and fun and also educational.

• 10:19Liv Albert?

  Jessie says, I recently listened to the episode that mentioned how Hades's name was pronounced as Aetis, but with a breath before it. And I was wondering about other names that start with an H sound. Are they the same? And absolutely yes. So ancient Greek did not have an H like we have an H. If you're ever like looking at ancient Greek or Greek today, you will visibly see an H in uppercase. But it is not an H sound. It's it's a it's one of they have a handful of like EI sounds and Itha is one of those. That's what looks like an H in uppercase. And in so in ancient Greek, what we understand, and I'm sure there are like

• 11:04Liv Albert?

  some of the most brilliant linguists in the world or philologists, whatever they go by, who have figured this stuff out because God, I have no idea how we would ever figure this bit out. But we do know that every name that we pronounce with an H today in English did have that like breathing sound. And so what it was is like not a letter. It was this understanding that you would like start a breath and like breathe it out to say that name. When I learned this, I was utterly consumed by it. I think it's so interesting and it really changes how you see these types of names. And then particularly if you are going to Greece

• 11:47Liv Albert?

  or interacting with modern Greek in any way, or you know, anything in that realm, or just generally, it's nerdy and interesting. So modern Greek lost that breathing sound entirely. Modern Greek does not have an H sound like in English. They have a he, he sound, which looks like an X and it's often pronounced key, because it's more like a KH sound like in Chiron or Chiron. So it's, you know, it's it's quite a different sound. Sometimes when North American, super English people are trying to learn.

• 12:29Liv Albert?

  So like the the the word for thank you was a great example of this in modern Greek because they'll tell people like us with our accents to pronounce it more like an H in here, which is a he, but it's really this more like in your throat. I wish I knew how to describe anything like that. But the Greek word for thanks is efkari, efkari stos. Yeah, it's been a while since I've said efkari stos. And in, you know, they'll tell us in English, you can say F haristo or something like that. And I think that's terrible. Um, but like it is kind of that general, um, H sound, but it's not the way we think of it. So when we think of like Hades, Hera, Hephysus, um, Helios, any of those that is this breathing sound.

• 13:12Liv Albert?

  So if you're actually looking at the names spelled in ancient Greek, like there is no H, um, Hades is it is, and like in modern Greek, it's it is. It is, I'm, I need to get better at the, uh, Delta. It is, and then Ira is Hera. If I stoos, if I stess, Hermes. Um, that sounds a little bit more like the bag, but it's not totally wrong. It's Hermes, like, oh, now it's, it sounds more like the bag. It's probably not quite like that. My brain is like messing with it. Um, but it's all kind of like that, um, with these Hs. And so it's really interesting to know this, like for lots of reasons, but especially if,

• 13:54Liv Albert?

  if you're thinking in modern Greek, like drop that H, it's not there. And I think, yeah, I mean, it's, it's just really fun and nerdy. So thank you for that question and a reason for me to, um, practice some of my Greek pronunciation, because I have been trying to learn. I don't, I'm not great at speaking Greek, but I have gotten half decent at some of the pronunciation.

• 14:18Liv Albert?

  All right, next up from Rachel, also straight into the point, let's talk about merch, baby. Where's your merch at? Thanks for being a light in this dark world. Thank you, Rachel. Um, okay. So for like six months, I've been talking about merch and a new website and everything. And honestly, um, we are probably like a week or two out. I don't totally know logistically, like when I can start, um, physically selling and shipping merch, but here's the, the deal. So at the end of last year, I ordered a, a bunch of merch. And so it's, it's really like, um, I'm trying to, to make it both more, I mean, sustainable

• 14:59Liv Albert?

  in various ways, but also the most profitable and, you know, various things that I've been trying to do to. Try to exist within the capitalist world without making it worse. And so what I've done is I had two different types of pins made. We have the Let's Talk With Miss Baby logo and then also the Euripides, the simple Euripides logo that I had from last year. Those are in pins. We have stickers of Euripides, the logo. We have this beautiful cathonic cuties, which I teased it once, but I didn't want to like, put it out there too much because I don't have it available

• 15:39Liv Albert?

  just yet, but it's beautiful. And we have tote bags, again, of Euripides and the logo. And we're looking at doing some more things, including with some of the listeners that were on the group tour, who happen to be like creators and makers in their ways. So it's gonna be really cool. This is all stuff that's going to be shipped directly from me or Michaela. We're still logistically working out. It might be like it's coming from both of us. For right now, I have everything. We're at two, like, kind of pretty opposite ends of the country, to make that clear now. And so, yeah, this stuff is going to be sold directly through our website, where it's not print on demand anymore. So it's considerably better for the environment. I have used, other

• 16:23Liv Albert?

  than the pins, which I had to get, I think, I forget where they're from, but that was pre tariffs, thank God. So we've got a lot before I'm screwed again. But the, the non-pin merch was all done by a local printer that's out. I mean, I guess it's not local for me anymore, but they're on Vancouver Island where I used to live. And so it's like a small, nice, local company in Canada that's doing all of this stuff. Again, all of this was also planned pre tariff. So it's going to be interesting to see kind of how, how this functions. Once we have the store up and running, I'm really hoping it's going to be something, not least because like, I spent a ton of money and I haven't been able to make any of it back yet. But the reason it's really delayed is because we had to rebuild the website for this.

• 17:10Liv Albert?

  Slash, it happened to coincide with a very good friend of mine who is building a web design company from scratch, basically. I mean, she's been doing it for years, but working for other people. And so she and a business partner are are building this web design company from scratch and are doing my website for free because we're both just trying to get by. And then I'm gonna give her money once it's made money. But that's all to say, it's just taken longer because people have lives and all of this is happening through kind of attempts at like mutual support type of stuff. But it is coming together. We're really close now. I think I just basically need to find the time to meet with my friend to go over the website, but like, it's almost done. And so I will finally have this merch

• 17:54Liv Albert?

  available. And what's really cool about it, I mean, the merch itself is beautiful. It's really stunningly printed, and I'm really excited about it. But what I'm most excited about is that I get to handle it. So it'll be coming directly from me. We can be looking at also signed books in there, or book plates, which are just like little signed stickers if you want, if you already have my book, stuff like that. Everything's gonna come with like a little thank you note. Like, I'm really excited. It's just gonna be a lot more hands on and personal and also a little better for the environment in whatever way that we can make that work. So it's exciting. And also, it's just been taking a really long time. But like, soon, really soon, really soon.

• 18:37Liv Albert?

  Another quick question, this is from AVO. What is the best translation of the Metamorphosis? I'm assuming you mean Ovid's Metamorphoses, but I will just say that like, there is at least one other famous ancient text that's technically called the Metamorphosis, or Metamorphoses, they might be both plural. Anyway, it's Apuleius's Golden Ass, like, the Golden Ass is its kind of alt title, where Cupid and Psyche comes from. So technically, they're both called Metamorphoses. But that said, assuming that you mean Ovid's Metamorphoses, my favorite translation right now is Stephanie McCarter's. Stephanie's been on my show twice now to firstly, talk about that translation, and then another really interesting book that she did about women in the ancient world. And she's just a delight, and her translation

• 19:20Liv Albert?

  is really readable and lovely and maintains a lot of like, the really nice and poetic structure. And also, was written intentionally to kind of set the record straight on, you know, all the male translations from earlier that would translate.

• 19:38Liv Albert?

  Things that made women into not quite people. You know, because that's been going on for 2,000 years since the not all men argument being ridiculous, but it's fine. Um, yeah, I would recommend Stephanie McCarter's translation. It's really beautiful and Stephanie's flipping lovely.

• 19:54Liv Albert?

  Okay, this next one comes from Gabriella. Now Gabriella emailed me and firstly, thank you Gabriella. Firstly, but to everyone, please, if you have a question, do put it through the form on my website, mythsbaby.com/questions or via the new voicemail notes that I'll be dropping in here too. That's they're all on the questions page. I only say that because when I get them via email, it's unlikely that I will remember to then put them in the document that I read from in this moment, which is where all of the form responses come from. But Gabriella's question was really great and it happened to come in while I was on my email and on my ADHD meds. So it got in here. But for future, if you send it to me anywhere else, it's very possible it could get missed because of my brain.

• 20:39Liv Albert?

  In this case, go though Gabriella asked, do you know whether the most common myths that are taught in schools today were also the most popular slash well-known myths in ancient times? Or have we just chosen to talk about, say, Medusa and Heracles's 12 labors? Also, do you know when Greek myths started being part of education? Absolutely love this. Oh, she says she submitted on the website as well, but I didn't see it. So, or maybe it's in both. And anyway, I still maintain my, my note earlier. And also I want to talk about how ADHD, we don't read all of a thing at once. In any case, um, this question is really interesting because the answer is like a little of everything. So, um, like I think a lot of the most common myths that are taught in school today

• 21:24Liv Albert?

  were the most common slash popular in the ancient world. Things like specifically the Iliad and the Odyssey, like absolutely the Iliad and the Odyssey were just as important, common, absolutely would have been taught in an education system. I imagine like, I don't know, I don't know enough about their education systems. But like if they were teaching literature in any way or culture in any way, it would have been that. At the same time, it's like, it would have also mostly been something where just like everyone knew. And we're, you know, this is a really broad reply based on time period too, right? Because it depends on the time period. But if we're talking, say, like classical Athens and a bit later, and that that would be when,

• 22:05Liv Albert?

  you know, schools were, um, or like rather higher education type schools were a thing that we have like more a record from, like things like Plato and Aristotle having their schools. Um, I, I think we can say pretty clearly that there, the Iliad and the Odyssey would be taught in some way or another because they were these cultural touchstones. They were absolutely that important. And that, that definitely goes for Heracles and his 12 labors as well. Maybe not necessarily the 12 labors specifically, but Heracles broadly. The 12 labors specifically have become more popular for us because they survive in more detail. Um, because we have something like, I think that it's Pseudopoldorus who has the kind of most on those.

• 22:47Liv Albert?

  It's still not particularly detailed, but like we have it. Heracles generally was their most, um, widespread across the Greek world and most famous hero. No question, like in terms of the breadth of the Greek world. Like if you're talking about Athens, Theseus might've been more popular, but not outside of Athens and stuff like that. Um, so Heracles definitely would have been in that realm. But again, I don't know specifically, you know, whether they focused on his labors or were looking elsewhere. That said, the labors are also very popular. They appear on like, um, you know, uh, reliefs and in, um, statuary and all of these things on temples and friezes and all of that. So very, very popular.

• 23:31Liv Albert?

  Now, something like Medusa, I think is, is probably not something that was as popular in the ancient world. The Gorgon maybe, but not the origin story necessarily. I really don't think that Medusa's story was particularly common in the ancient world based on what survives and what kind of references we do and don't have. I don't think it was the Gorgon, yes, and the Gorgonion in the shield and in the Aegis, like yes, but not Medusa. And so I think we're getting this like really interesting mixture of in the modern world, we rely on what survives, but also like what has kind of.

• 24:13Liv Albert?

  Taken, you know, been taken by the zeitgeist and like, you know, like Medusa is something so different because even today, you know, there are like a bazillion different ways to tell her story based on which sources you're reading or the modern ideas that have kind of left the sources behind all of these like ideas of her being seductive or half snake or all of those. Like, there's a lot of stuff that is taught today that I think is like not actually in the Greek mythology as well. Or there's that, you know, there's a very common issue with Ovid's story overshadowing anything from Greek when for all we know, Ovid, you know, made up a lot of that. And so it's just like a really interesting question, but definitely when we think of like

• 24:56Liv Albert?

  the most popular being the Iliad and the Odyssey, they were still the most popular back then too. And in large part like that then contributes to why we have them today, right? Because so I don't know the answer to the question of like when myth started being part of education. But I can tell you like one of the most interesting things about how ancient works survive for us today is through education. So as an example, and I've talked about this before, but it's my favorite fucking story. So the Greek playwrights, right? So Ischola, Syriopides,

• 25:37Liv Albert?

  and Sophocles, those are the three whose work survives. And that, you know, there were lots more. But those are the three whose work survives. And that is in large part because those were the three that became the educational canon for the Byzantines who came much later, right? Like after Rome, you know, I don't, I'm not going to pretend I know the whole timeline, but Byzantine is is kind of after Rome. After Rome in Greece in that way, like, God, there's so many details, but the Byzantines are are late, essentially, so like, maybe fourth, fifth, sixth century, maybe earlier, and then there's a whole question of like, how long it carried on, it's a whole thing. I won't get into

• 26:16Liv Albert?

  that because I don't know enough. But Byzantine schools taught those plays. They taught those very specific plays. In the case of Sophocles and Aeschylus, those plays that survive for us today survive entirely because they were taught in schools. And that is because, in order for them to be taught in schools, they had to be copied in a text form over and over to survive time and degradation and whatever, you know, types of books they were or were not able to read and and use back then. So they had to be copied so many times that they survive for us today. Now, in the case of Euripides, about half of his plays that survive survive for that exact same reason, because they were taught in schools. And then there's this little, or this

• 26:59Liv Albert?

  like, other half, this this collection of Euripides plays that survived by a fluke, right? Those are the ones, I've talked with them before, they're called the alphabet plays. They are a series of plays alphabetically in order because they survive because a Byzantine, again Byzantine collector, had like a collection of all of Euripides plays in like, say, you know, like a four or five scroll, like, compendium or whatever, you know, you get like a five book series. He had like scrolls containing all of those plays, and one of those scrolls with these certain letters, I always forget what it is, but it's like fairly early in the alphabet.

• 27:42Liv Albert?

  One of those scrolls survives, and so that's why we have plays like the Helen and the Ion, you can tell they're alphabetical, but of course Helen, no H, so Eleny, that's Helen, Ellen, same name. So yeah, that we have those plays, the Helen, the Ion, there's like a Heracles one that was in there, Heracles. And so, we, because of that, with Euripides, we have this really interesting insight into the plays that were not taught in schools and like what they looked like. And we don't, you know, it's a really, it's an extra added kind of bonus, but otherwise, we know all of those plays because they were taught in schools. And so it's a great example of like, yeah. This stuff was absolutely taught in schools.

• 28:25Liv Albert?

  Whether it was like in the ancient world, it's a little less clear. But very shortly after, absolutely, or even into the Hellenistic period, they probably would have been taught. Really just depends on the time period you're talking about, right? Because ancient Greece spanned like at absolute least 1,000 years of time. And so, you know, there's a, there's a lot of differences across the board. But overall, very interesting question. Thank you.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  I've got big news. I switched to Verizon and got the new iPhone 18 Pro. Shh. I can keep my old phone. And I also get the latest iPhone every year. Shh, anything else? Verizon let me choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on them. Everybody, listen up. Shh. Switch to Verizon and get the new iPhone 18 Pro now. No trade in needed. And the latest iPhone every year with Simplicity Plan. Plus, choose Apple Watch Series 12 or iPad on us. Simplicity Plan with Simplicity Pro required. Plan and device payment purchase are separate agreements with separate terms. Service plan for Watch or iPad required. Additional terms apply for all offers.

• 29:36Speaker 03

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• 29:41Speaker 04

  Love the crown molding.

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  Oh, wait until you see the walk-in closets and the bathroom tile.

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  Does it have Verizon FiOS? You know, 100% fiber internet.

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  No FiOS, but it looks like it's got cable. Let's check out the kitchen.

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• 30:52Liv Albert?

  Okay, now we're gonna play one of the listener voicemail questions.

• 30:58Speaker 06

  Hello, Liz. I have a question. I could have done a bit more research before asking because I'm gonna sound a bit vague and ignorant, maybe, but I'm a bit tired, so I'll just go for it. I've somewhere read or heard the story of Chiron, I think it's Chiron in English, that's how you say it, the boatman who brings you over the river into the underworld. And I have this story in my head that at some point, and maybe that's not from that story at all, but from some other like

• 31:39Speaker 06

  adaptation or modern reception, I have no idea, so maybe you can help me parse this. I always use this in situations where, so the story that's in my head for some reason, and I don't know where it came from, is that this boat person

• 31:56Speaker 06

  was doing this job for a very long time, and at some point, someone got into the boat, and he said to them, can you hold the oars, or can you like row for a bit? And once they started to do it, they couldn't stop, and he left. I don't think this is really the original story, so I'm just curious about where this came from. Maybe you've also come across it, or maybe there does exist this in an apocryphal way, or in some sort of modern adaptation. I'm just curious about where this comes from in my mind, because I use it a lot when I, you know, especially in like the volunteering or activist or community organizing circles,

• 32:40Speaker 06

  there's often someone who gets stuck with a job, like onboarding, or checking the emails of a group or something. And then they're kind of stressed with it, or they're annoyed that no one else does it, so they always have to do it. And so as soon as someone offers, they're like, yes, here's the password. And then they never do it again, and the other person is stuck with it. So I've used this in many situations. I'm like, yeah, this is like the Chiron. And I just recently used it in a situation and I just started thinking, why is this from? Is this even from any original mythology? Or do you, does it ring a bell with you? Anyways, that, that's, that is my question.

• 33:25Liv Albert?

  Oh, this is, this is a great question and also listed it. I only got to listen. I swear I didn't see this one come in. I've been getting emails, but I didn't notice this one. So I went to listen yesterday to prepare for this and I was immediately recognizing this voice. Uh, so this is Sophia, who was one of the listeners on the group trip that we did, uh, just last month. So who's such a joy and I'd forgotten, but she'd mentioned that she sent in a, a question and I'd been sort of waiting to find it on the list. Not realizing or not having, um, noticed that, uh, it was a voicemail. So it was really, it was a fun little like, oh, wow. Well, that's not a new voice. Um, and so Sophia, great question. And now you've got me kind of consumed with this.

• 34:05Liv Albert?

  It definitely sounds like something that, so also, yes, first you are, uh, mostly correct. It's, so there's Charon or Charon, Charon. It's in English, it's usually spelled C H A R O N. This was one of the examples I was talking about. So in like a more accurate, um, Greek pronunciation, it would be like Charon. Because it's got that chi, which is not Kai, like the, uh, American fraternities would have you believe Kai. It's terrible. Anyway, Charon. Then there's also Hiron, Chiron, right? Who is the centaur? It's easy to mix them up because their names are only one letter different in English and also in Greek, actually.

• 34:47Liv Albert?

  In any case, yes, Charon is the ferryman of the dead. Um, he crosses the river Asheron or Akron. Or later, when the Romans take over, it's the river Styx because they don't like having so many rivers to deal with. Um, in any case, it really, really sounds this idea of there being a time when he gave up his oars to someone else. Like that sounds like it's straight out of an ancient Greek source. It really does. It sounds like one of those like one-off moments or like even maybe something from Aesop's fables. And it's really interesting. I've not heard of it offhand. I'm doing some digging and so far.

• 35:30Liv Albert?

  Yeah, I've I I paused in that time. I've I can't I can't find a reference to this, but at the same time, I would not be surprised if it was somewhere. And if my now obsessed brain ever finds it, I will mention it. All right, we have another voicemail question.

• 35:53Speaker 07

  Hi Liv, I am a fairly long time listener of the show and love all the work that you put out. So thank you so much, first and foremost. I have a question regarding the Odyssey and Penelope and Odysseus, the the test of the wedding bed and the olive tree. My understanding was that the significance of the olive tree was it was where they first met, and it was such a meaningful place to Odysseus that that is where he carved their wedding bed from and then built the palace

• 36:28Speaker 07

  around. I may be wrong in that part. But then I also understand that Odysseus met Penelope while he was in another location, the name of which escapes me now, but it was where the suitors were gathering and he was there with them, sort of in in competition for the hand of Helen. But he ended up falling in love with Penelope instead, which is on a different page. I think maybe it's my scene A. But I again, I can't remember exactly the rotation. So if that's the case,

• 37:08Speaker 07

  if they met somewhere else, where wherever Penelope was living with her cousin, then how can it be that the olive tree is where they first met and then that's where it got carved? It may just be me not having, you know, understood the myths properly. But it's a question that's puzzled me for a while. So I'm just curious to hear your your take on it. Thank you again for all you do, and I hope you're having a great day. Bye.

• 37:40Liv Albert?

  Ooh, thank you. This is also a very fun question, not least because like right now if I if I've got a question about the Odyssey, I'm gonna take it because it's most of what I've been doing to begin with. And so, yeah, this is a good question. I think there's just like a slight misremembering on the story with the tree, because the story with the tree is as far as I could see, like not in the Odyssey at least, but it could be something that was added later.

• 38:08Liv Albert?

  That the tree is not like where they met. The tree is just what he built for the wedding. So like he, there was a tree in the courtyard of the palace and he built their bedroom around it. And I think the idea is that it was a wedding present. I couldn't find that exactly in the text either, but it's that he built the bed around the tree. So he built the room around the bed, which was around the tree. And so it's just meant to be this like very permanent fixture that is simultaneously a symbol of their relationship. Now, the other part you're you're connecting to is the later story about how they met. So

• 38:50Liv Albert?

  the only source that we have, or rather like the detailed source that we have for the story of how they met and how they got married is coming from pseudo Apollodorus. So it's quite late. But that's not to say that, you know, it didn't exist in previous, much earlier times and sources, just that what we have is late. And that is where we get this idea that, yeah, they're basically everyone goes to try to marry Helen, right? Everyone wants to marry her. She's just very pretty. And that story essentially goes that like, yeah, everyone goes to try to marry her.

• 39:31Liv Albert?

  And then her father Tindarius is like, well, this could go badly. Like, if all of these men want to marry her, like, and one of them doesn't get to, like, there's probably going to start a fight. Or, yeah, at least, at least one fight is gonna break out. And that's when Odysseus jumps in and he's like, oh, hello. Well, you know, if it would help you. Um, I, I would be happy to uh make sure that there's no fighting. It's just that you have to help me marry Penelope. And so, you know, we, I don't even, I couldn't immediately, I didn't have time to do too, too much digging, but I couldn't find like an idea of him like seeing

• 40:16Liv Albert?

  her and like falling in love or anything. It's just really that, I mean, like so many stories, it's like, no, he just already wanted to marry her. And he's like, well, if you make that happen, like, I'll make this happen for you. And so essentially that, um, so yeah, Odysseus is like, oh, you just got to get them to swear an oath that they'll defend the, the, the guy who wins her to get married. You'll defend their relationship against any wrong that might be done. Um, and spoilers, like, that's why everyone has to then go to war with Troy in defense of Helen is because they swore this oath that was Odysseus's idea. Do we get to blame him for the Trojan War? I mean, more than Helen, I would say, more than Helen. Um, but yeah, so that's, and then,

• 41:01Liv Albert?

  you know, in return, Tyndareus talks to Penelope's dad, Icarus, and is like, we gotta make this happen. And so they get married. Now, again, there might be like more details elsewhere, or there might be later sources that romanticize this and, and add more flowery details and, and romance and love, whatever. Like, you know, it, it's, it's not, like, like everything, you know, in this realm, like it's, I'm not describing it this way to suggest that they weren't meant to be, you know, super in love and all over each other, whatever. It's just more about how these stories get told and what details are and are not important to the ancient sources who survive. And I think that's really interesting, like.

• 41:47Liv Albert?

  And, you know, at least until sort of the turn of the millennia. And, and when Greece was ruled by Rome, like that really later period before that, it didn't seem like a ton of romance was popular. You know, there were some romantic storylines in a play here or there. The Odyssey does have like a little bit, like we do know that he loves Penelope and he wants to go back to her and she loves him. Like there are those bits, but, but not like, you know, details of these romantic moments and stories. And later there are some, um, but it's just interesting to me that it's really more about like serving a purpose with, with these types of stories and mythos.

• 42:30Liv Albert?

  Also, I realized I meant to say it at the top. This is a really, I'm trying to figure out exactly how best to record replies to these questions while also playing them, but like, so I got kind of overwhelmed. But thank, thank you for saying really nice things. Honestly, that, that, that it makes the entire world to me. Means the entire world to me. It's early. My brain isn't working yet. Okay. Thank you for that. We have a one more voice note question.

• 43:01Speaker 08

  Hi Liv, this is Maria from New York City. Firstly, I want to say I have gone through your, pretty much most of your catalog from where you started. And to see where you are right now is amazing to see. And it really empowers me to really pursue my interests. And I really love you providing a more rich and academic context to your content. Compared to before. So just wanted to say that. Second, um, I was listening to your anniversary episode and you're talking about, you know,

• 43:44Speaker 08

  is there ever too much myths? But one thing I've noticed with a lot of my favorite history mythology creators is that they primarily stay in.

• 43:57Speaker 08

  Eurocentric Western mythology, and I think you have a great opportunity to really expand into the wonderful mythologies from around the world. Um, and you can even just start by doing North African mythologies. You know, um, mythologies from, um, Eurasia. Cause those are still, you know, technically middle Mediterranean. And I think it would just add more depth and really fill this void that I've been experiencing. I don't know if it's just me, but you know, as a person from the African heritage,

• 44:39Speaker 08

  it, it would just be really nice to see more representation of the, the beautiful, you know, cultural storytelling. And I, I believe, and I, I think those stories should be heard and told to the masses. Anyway, thank you for making such a great podcast for me to listen to while I write AI models that will hopefully not destroy the world. Bye.

• 45:08Liv Albert?

  Oh my God, thank you. That was one, so nice. And I really, I'm really, I've said this before on these episodes, but I really want to emphasize how much it means to me to hear people appreciating not just my work, but the evolution of it, because it's something where I know that like the content I put out now is really different from the stuff I did eight years ago. And I prefer it. I love it. I'm so happy with the evolution of the show and myself and my own everything. But it's, you know, I understand that it's a different show. So hearing that that's appreciated in such specific detail really means the entire world.

• 45:46Liv Albert?

  And to your question about these other mythologies, um, and oh my God, I just, so I agree with you so completely that there is, there is like a gaping hole in the world of mythological content and retellings and people doing this type of, of myth work. There is an enormous hole when it comes to the mythos of Africa, North Africa or otherwise, you know, whether or not it's connected, uh, to the Med and, and absolutely East Asia and all of that. Like I agree with you so completely. And the reason why.

• 46:27Liv Albert?

  I haven't expanded into those mythologies is simply that I don't. Well, there, there's a couple elements. The first one is I know that the content wouldn't be of the same quality and I, and I don't mean because the mythology isn't of the same quality. I imagine it very much is, if not far more, um, you know, eh, eh, full of this depth and, and I, I imagine it, it's fucking fascinating. But for me, my knowledge base and my ability to understand and convey these, the simple aspects of myth, but also the complex sociological, cultural aspects of myth.

• 47:12Liv Albert?

  I know that all of my abilities in that realm are tied to Greece, not even Rome. Like it's why I don't talk in too much depth about Roman mythology unless I have some, another expert with me to talk about it because I can't do it justice. I don't know the cultural and sociological, you know, context of, of Roman mythology. And, and that is so much more true for this, the mythology of the wider Mediterranean. It's something where I would be so thrilled and I actively, I want to say I'm actively trying, um, to have more guests on who can dive into

• 47:56Liv Albert?

  that wider Med mythos. And it's true, but it's also that the, with the workload as it currently stands, we don't have a lot of, um, a lot of, of bandwidth to be seeking out podcast guests. Um, both because the actual like, eh, kind of vetting process is a little tough unless I have, like, Mutual friends to to call upon because I mean, a lot of academics are incredibly good behind a microphone and others are not. And that doesn't mean they're not like the absolute most skilled academic in their field. But like, I am not an interviewer.

• 48:38Liv Albert?

  And I honestly, so, I mean, I am a neurodivergent weirdo who, if I had the choice, would like, I don't even know, it's so odd being in my position because like, I absolutely love my conversation episodes, but they have to kind of go in a really specific way because I don't feel competent, like, like having conversations with just anyone, like, because of the way I am and my, what I'm fairly sure is undiagnosed autism, like, I just,

• 49:16Liv Albert?

  it makes me so anxious to talk to new people for the show to the point where I often, like, flounder and feel like I am, like, a lot of the time, they go great, and we immediately fall into a like, comfortable rapport, and then we're golden. But if that doesn't happen, I, I, I think I get out a good conversation because I've had minimal to no complaints about them. But the toll they take on my nervous system, when I don't feel like I'm connecting with the guest, or I don't feel like they get my personality, or they think

• 49:57Liv Albert?

  I'm like, too much, or not smart enough, or not experienced enough in the field, and whether or not that's actually true of how they feel, like, it's how I feel, and it can take a lot out of me. And so that's all to say, like, it's, it's a little scary sometimes to reach out to guests who I don't know, or I can't hear them on audio, or I don't have like, some kind of connection, like, you know, just like mutuals, or whatever, like, it's really stressful. And because I'm not connected to too much in the ancient med beyond grace and Rome, it then becomes harder. And then on the absolute simplistic side of like,

• 50:43Liv Albert?

  It it just takes a lot of coordination. And so I if I I've I've made this call before and it remains so true. If anyone has suggestions for people who are experts in that broader realm and could come on the show, I would be so grateful, particularly people that you know have like been on an audio program or have kind of conveyed that they have like a more. Like I really have trouble with professionalism, like the expectations of professionalism and like whether or not I am behaving in a way that is like quote unquote, like professional and like appropriate.

• 51:27Liv Albert?

  That stuff makes me so uncomfortable, I want to scream. Um, and so I really just need people that I know are going to be like chill with me and like just be like able to have like a deeply normal, non-academic conversation, but also like talk about their academic stuff. I don't know, it's it's really, I want, I want to expand into those realms. And especially with the collective, that is our big priority is to find other people who are doing that. Because I think these stories absolutely and completely deserve to be told, but I also don't want to be the white woman swooping in and telling those stories for the other people. My preference would be to find people who are

• 52:07Liv Albert?

  experts in that field, ideally from those cultures or connected in some kind of way. And and generally, I mean, the real goal would be to find people who are doing that type of content in whatever way and in in whatever way that the the Memory Collective can do this as we expand and figure out what the hell we can and can't do. Like, I would love to support that. I would love to have a show about those wider mythologies from somebody who actually should tell those stories. I that's absolutely an enormous priority and it is absolutely a goal.

• 52:52Liv Albert?

  So I would love suggestions if people know of of people doing the work in that realm, be they for conversations or people who are content creating in that realm, you know, with the degree of.

• 53:08Liv Albert?

  Of like just research and knowledge and like a goal for accuracy and and general egalitarianism. Like, I would love to hear because it really is a goal. I agree with you so completely that there is this big gap in in the stories that are being told. I just am not comfortable being the like white savior lady swooping in to do the work. Like, I don't, that isn't me and I don't want it to be me. But I would love to hear of the people who are doing that work and should be doing that work and and support them in literally whatever way possible because I agree with you so completely. These stories deserve to be told. I just think they're not mine to tell.

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• 55:40Liv Albert?

  Okay, that is what we have for the voice notes. I really love this. It's so nice to hear from you. It's, it's quite, it's just different, right? In this, it's much more like connected when I get to hear from you guys like this. So honestly, completely, if you, I would love to hear more, um, voice notes from you. So either, you know, uh, text questions are great, too. Um, I can't imagine myself being a voice note person despite my career. So honestly, either are great, but just know that that is there and I would love to play more of your voice notes. So again, like questions, voice note or otherwise, are mythsbaby.com/questions. You can like find links to everything. But we're gonna do a, a few more questions. Um, hopefully,

• 56:24Liv Albert?

  you all won't know this because I'll finish it either way, but I gotta try to do this before I have to run out and run a bunch of suburban errands with a zipcar. Okay. Okay, this is a, this is a great question. It's quite long from Medea, actually. Um, I'm gonna try to, I'm just gonna kind of paraphrase a little bit. Um, so, they said, "I have been wondering what makes gods and humans mortal or immortal? For example, the Gorgons, Gorgones, because my brain wants to do Greek now, are immortal, except Medusa, which was, who was mortal? Why is she mortal? Is it because she dies at the end? But, um, Dionysus does die and come back to life, I forget the details.

• 57:05Liv Albert?

  And also, there is that kinder immortal centaur, the teacher of the heroes, that is shot by Heracles with poisonous arrows, but because he is immortal, he just cannot die and has endless suffering and, okay." So, okay, they did offer this. The answer there, because this in fiction, is this is fiction and it is all said in hindsight after the fact, is an answer I already have. I want more, even if I doubt more exists. Okay, I have a bit more. I do have a bit more, I promise, because it is bigger than that. And this is a great question and it's something that comes up in like various different ways, but it, it's hard to see the connections necessarily. And I'm honestly always happy to talk about it because it's really fucking interesting. So-

• 57:48Liv Albert?

  I mean, all of this is like, yes, you're right. It's because it is ultimately made up in whatever way. Like, it is, it is so much bigger than fiction, of course, but it is invented by a culture. But what, what is more than that is that, so to get a little bit more specific. So when it comes to Medusa and the Gorgons, my argument for the absolute lot, like, the shortest way I can put this argument, because I know I could talk about this for like at least half an hour. But the shortest way I can put this argument is that my, yeah, my theory on Medusa and the Gorgons is this. That in the earliest time period that we have of Greece,

• 58:30Liv Albert?

  we have these, these images of this, this creature who will later become known as a Gorgon. So right now I've become really obsessed with these images we have of what is often called the lady of the animals, lady of the wild animals. Um, it's a, she's a potnia. So these potnia are these Bronze Age goddess type figures. They're like lady of, like queen of, kind of. And the, the, there's a better name for it and I can't think of what it is now. Anyway, um, but she looks like a Gorgon. She looks so much like a Gorgon that I am so certain.

• 59:15Liv Albert?

  I'm sure there are also like very smart people who have done, written all these papers on this and somebody's like, duh, obviously. Everyone talks about that, but I've not seen it directly. Um, but like they are a Gorgon essentially. And so my theory is that the images came first of these winged women with these fangs and these big tongues and these weird bodies, they came first. Okay? And then later we also get specifically the head of a Gorgon in the shield of Athena and of Zeus in a shield. And then we have the invention of stories to explain those pre-existing images.

• 59:53Liv Albert?

  Because stories in a written form that we have them today came after these iconographic depictions. Images came first because language is still developing and while they had language, they didn't write things down that survive for us today. So maybe they were spelling it out back then, but we'll never know. Instead, what we get are all of these disparate images that come together under this story of the Gorgons. And so I think that the story of the three Gorgons with Medusa being the one who is mortal and is killed and put her head is put into that shield. I think that story was developed to explain the head in the shield and to explain these

• 1:00:38Liv Albert?

  three Gorgons and the Gorgons who remained outside of the shield. And so in order for that to make sense, you simply have to have one of them that's killable because one of them has to have her head removed and then placed in this shield. And so to me, it's just like what had to happen to explain the pre-existing ideas. And I think that's probably true when it comes to Chiron, the centaur as well. Now Chiron is of course, like you said, he is the like kind centaur. He's the one who trains the heroes. He's the one who is a healer and he lives on Mount Pelion and he's got all of these great stories. And then there are this like race, quote unquote, race of centaurs who are super violent and

• 1:01:23Liv Albert?

  dangerous and like very rapey and like all of this bad stuff. And they don't really fit. And I think what's happening here is a world trying to understand two very disparate pre-existing ideas. So whether they were images in this case or stories, stories of violent centaurs versus stories of a kind centaur, they are, you know, the Greek world is very big and completely unified. They shared a vague language, but even that language varied very much across the Greek world. They were not in any way.

• 1:02:05Liv Albert?

  A unified country. They were lots of different countries, right? It's kind of like how a large part of Eastern Europe uses like the Cyrillic alphabet and they have like shared words and things, but they're different languages. So it's, you know, or even like, you know, all the different forms of like, you know, accents and dialects and things. We have that in English as well, but it's across the world in languages. And so what's happening, I think, is that like one region has a story of centaurs that are super violent. And then one region has a story of centaurs that are not violent, or this really specific one who's doing all of these things. And eventually these stories have to come together and someone has to make sense of it.

• 1:02:49Liv Albert?

  And usually, particularly in something like this, when those stories actually appear all in one place, like when they're kind of connected, like that's a really late text. Usually it's pseudo Apollodorus and it's something that's coming like 700 plus years after the development of these broader mythical ideas. So someone's trying to explain it and it's like, well, figure it out. Now Dionysus is a really interesting one because the stories where he dies and comes back to life is almost exclusively the Orphic tradition, which I've done that short series on the whole, the, the thing about the Orphic tradition is that it's fucking baffling.

• 1:03:29Liv Albert?

  And it's this like subset of Greek religion that believed like super different things and was like fairly late, but maybe not. And it was small or maybe it was big and depends on the time period and all of this stuff. But they have like really, really separate mythologies for so many things. And that's one of them. That's how like Dionysus becomes Zagreus and it's like this whole thing. So it's also, we're dealing with like these subsets of mythos that contain a lot of the same characters. And so therefore to us seem like they have to be connected, but in the actual ancient Greek world, we're like not connected at all. They were like, you know, how like the, um, he like Judaism and the, and Christianity share a lot of their origin mythos, right? And their origin text, but they're very different

• 1:04:14Liv Albert?

  religions and it's, it's like that, right? And so, but then when we come to it, Two, three thousand years later and try to understand this, it's like fucking baffling, you know, like it's like, well, how do we navigate this because we are looking at as this like singular static thing, but it wasn't this singular static thing. It was a thousand years of storytelling, then jammed into one thing. And we're like, well, why doesn't it make any sense? Um, and so that's the case for so much of mythology, but this is like, this was a great question for these kinds of like really specific examples about it. So thank you. Um, and, uh, this person also added an episode request and I'm going to read it because I've

• 1:04:57Liv Albert?

  already done it. And so you should just go find the episode when Hera, the episode request is when Hera tried to take power from Zeus together with the other gods in the coup. I've done an episode on the coup. We love the coup. If you search the word coup with my podcast, you'll probably find it. I'll try to remember to link it in the episode's description, but definitely have done an episode about it somewhere in the last few years. Um, cause it turns out I have over 700 episodes and they're like, oh, really hard to, um, navigate, but I will try to find it. Either way, it's, I've definitely done it because it is such an interesting story, but I would also recommend you listen to my episode from earlier this year with Machi Poproski, who, um, is like, oh my God, his insights into Thetis are fucking fascinating.

• 1:05:42Liv Albert?

  And we talked about Thetis in a lot of detail and it was incredible. Okay. Now to a fun one. Ally said, Ally Capricorn, Ally comma Capricorn. I love this for you. Ally says, who would win in a fight? Heracles versus a hundred gorillas? That's a good question. I think a hundred gorillas, but it depends if they are collaborating and, um, if they're like a team or not, like if they're not a team, probably Heracles, but if they're actually able to strategically be a team, the gorillas. Either way though, gorillas are not something he got to encounter or the Greeks, unfortunately.

• 1:06:26Liv Albert?

  All right. Zoe says, if you could recast Christopher Nolan's Odyssey, who would you cast and why? I would love to hear your thoughts on film adaptations on the Iliad Odyssey. Would you rather be there, there be no film adaptations or do you think it's good that they receive recognition through these movies?

• 1:06:45Liv Albert?

  Big and complex question, unfortunately. So firstly, I will say that I don't have any kind of dream cast in mind. And I think that's because of how my brain works. I don't visualize things in that way. I don't visualize what I'm reading, or the story, or anything. Like, it just lives as this amorphous concept of words in my head. And so I rarely, if ever, think about what a person really looks like in a book, or who would play them. It's not something my brain ever does. And so I honestly, other than the fact that I will stand by this forever, that Sean Bean made a great Odysseus in Troy, and like,

• 1:07:26Liv Albert?

  having a movie of him being Odysseus 20 years ago would have been amazing. So like, that I maintain, I would have loved that to happen in a perfect world. But other than that, I really don't conceptualize these, them as people. Now, I, I definitely think that there should be film adaptations of the Iliad in Odyssey. Like, I think that they are beautiful stories to adapt. I think the problem becomes the capitalism of it all. Because when it comes to Christopher Nolan's, it keeps being clearer and clearer with every release of information, or images, or whatever, that the driving factor behind this is money. The driving factor behind his

• 1:08:05Liv Albert?

  adaptation is money. He's been given the most money of any film, and he's cast for money. He has, his cast is about the box office, and bringing in people. He's cast a popular people. He's cast currently famous American actors. And so, because honestly, in Hollywood, with money comes, or with, like, anything, comes also propaganda. Hollywood creates propaganda. This is something that I've generally understood, but more and more, it's become clearer and clearer to me. Like, fun fact, did you know that in order to show the American military in any movie, they have to have approved the full movie?

• 1:08:49Liv Albert?

  And that's how you know this stuff is propaganda. Now, like, obviously, the American military is not going to be in the Odyssey. But the Americanness of Odysseus, to me, is pure propaganda. It's Western civilization propaganda. It's this idea that the ancient Greeks who quote unquote "established our civilization" were as white as colonizer Americans, settler Americans. Like, Matt Damon is one of the most quintessentially like, white American men around, right? And it's so intentional that they've cast him as this like brilliant, cunning man who was a contributing factor to the founding of Western civilization. Like, it is so on point.

• 1:09:32Liv Albert?

  And so for me, I absolutely would love to see an adaptation, but I would love to see an adaptation that is somehow outside of this capitalistic American Hollywood propaganda world, right? Because the Odyssey is not propaganda. The ancient Greeks were really good at propaganda. The Odyssey was not it, because Homer predated propaganda in that way, in those forms. Homer's work was very intentionally like, the breadth of the Med. Like, it's why the Trojans aren't the bad guys in the Iliad, because it isn't about good guys and bad guys. It's just about like terrible, the terrible toll of war?

• 1:10:15Liv Albert?

  And like bitchy men who run to their moms, which is another question on this list, and I'm not sure I'll get to it, but is a good one. And, and so to me, like, a perfect Odyssey adaptation would just be what is on the page? And you would cast unknown Mediterranean actors. You wouldn't cast Charlize Theron. Like, I don't have any issue with most of these actors broadly, except Matt Damon. Fucking obnoxious. But like, they, I- The last time I checked the casting, they, there was not a single Mediterranean sounding name, like the closest they got was a guy from India. And like, great, we love to have

• 1:10:58Liv Albert?

  non-white people, but cast a singular Greek or Turkish or people from the Levant, like, literally cast anyone from that actual region, anyone that looks like a person from the Med. Like, I'm very glad there are people of color. And at the same time, though, like, it being like, the two most, like, famous, or two of the most famous black women in Hollywood, like, is still continuing on with this. It's just about the money. They're not casting unknowns for any roles that matter. They're not casting Mediterranean people for any roles

• 1:11:43Liv Albert?

  that matter. And they're also not paying attention to history. And what's so interesting about that is The Odyssey and the Iliad, because of how they were developed over like hundreds of years of oral storytelling before they were written down, like quite late into their lifespan as these like stories and cultural touchpoints. Because of that, The Odyssey and the Iliad are actually like chock full of anachronisms. There are like weapons from three separate centuries that are mentioned. There is, like, they are not actually hearkening back to a specific time period. And so it

• 1:12:25Liv Albert?

  should be really easy for a movie to get it right, because you have like 400 years of, like, sources to go to for costuming, like, character development, all of this stuff. And they still managed to make it all nonsense. And like, from what we've seen, it's also displaying a, a, a like, fundamental lack of knowledge about The Odyssey. Like, I'm sure they have smart people working on that show, but they're like, not listening to them. Like, the poster has this, like, AI-looking

• 1:13:05Liv Albert?

  Face like this statue that is purely white marble like it could have come out of the Met in New York. It doesn't look like it's from any of the 400 years that you can refer to for Greek statuary in that very, very broad time period that would be quote unquote accurate for the Odyssey. It doesn't look like any of that. It looks like really late Hellenistic slash a Roman copy slash something somebody invented last year. And the tagline is defy the gods.

• 1:13:34Liv Albert?

  Which is

• 1:13:36Liv Albert?

  literally not it. Like,

• 1:13:41Liv Albert?

  he defied the gods like a couple of times and that is what made it so bad. Like actually, Odysseus spends the entirety of the Odyssey trying to atone for the time he defied the gods. So to make it like the tagline is unhinged and completely conveys this lack of fundamental understanding of what is going on. Like, you're not to defy the gods. That's the point. That's literally why you're so goddamn cursed. Don't defy the gods. A tone to the gods. And so, that is all to say that like, I would love to see a film adaptation. And I would be so

• 1:14:21Liv Albert?

  happy to accept a cast of like, completely, you know, I, I mean, I'm not generally picky about that type of thing. But what I don't want is Western civilization propaganda that promotes America through one of the most ancient poems of all time. And what I don't want is this quintessential American-ness put onto that world that then simultaneously excludes everyone from that Mediterranean world and excludes the actual history that could be delved into and the actual understanding of what is a really fascinating and complex

• 1:15:02Liv Albert?

  and important poem. So like, I'm not against it. It's just that capitalism is such that I don't think we'll ever see one that isn't Western state of propaganda, tragically.

• 1:15:15Liv Albert?

  Okay. Oh my God, I almost forgot this question, which I saw a while ago and I really, really, really wanted to get it in here. So I'm gonna try to wrap up, but I really want to talk about this one. So this is from Ilaria, which is also a word that's getting connected to that loss of the H sound. So great name, Ilaria. Okay. They say, "Hey Liv, we visited a museum of ancient Greek technology recently, and it was really interesting, but one of the history signs slash explanation boards had a bit about how there was no slavery system. We asked the museum staff about this, but she was adamant that there was no slavery in ancient Greece as a whole. She made this the point, some cities had people who were not treated very well,

• 1:15:56Liv Albert?

  but she said it's not slavery in the modern sense as they had food and accommodation, not very good, but their life was their own. She also mentioned the Minoans had no slavery either." Okay, I'm really, really glad you asked this. And first and foremost, I will say that I am not saying this person at this museum was wrong. Greece has its own relationship with their history and their stories. And while I wouldn't classify it as completely accurate, I understand broadly where she's coming from. And also like, I make a real point of like, I am never stepping on any toes of any Greek person interpreting their history and culture. It's not mine. So I'm not stepping on this Greek person's toes.

• 1:16:41Liv Albert?

  But I do want to explain where this explanation is coming from. And you used a key word, "there was no slavery system." And that's really important because what I think is happening here is that the ancient system of what I guess, I think most historians would classify as enslavement was not a organized system of slavery. And it was nothing like the transatlantic slave trade or the chattel slavery that was happening in that realm, right?

• 1:17:25Liv Albert?

  And that is the big and really, really, really, really, really, really important difference is that

• 1:17:33Liv Albert?

  When we are comparing it to the role of the British, but obviously way, way, way, way more, the Americans of actually traveling to a place determining that those people were lesser than you, and then kidnapping them as if they were not human beings and transporting them as if they were not human beings to a completely different world that they then have absolutely no means of freedom or nothing of their own. Like, that system of chattel slavery, that the transatlantic slave

• 1:18:12Liv Albert?

  trade is so, so different from the ancient systems of enslavement. And that is a really important distinction because talking about how slavery functioned in ancient Greece should not ever be compared to the American system in any way, well, other than what I, I guess what I just did, which is to say that it's so different. But like, because it was so bad, what America was doing, like, it is really hard to compare because it is like, oh, my God, okay, it's, it's really hard. I'm going to talk about how the Greek forms of enslavement worked, and then we can look at why that is so different and why it's so important that we don't compare them. So,

• 1:18:56Liv Albert?

  in ancient Greece, they absolutely had enslaved people. But the way it worked was that, like I said, there was no system of enslavement. There was no organized, like, enslaving of people. And enslavement didn't happen because the people were inhuman in the way that the American slave system did. That was because they did not see black people in Africa as human beings. And that's what's really, really, really important. The ancient Greek enslavement happened because people lost war, because their island was genocided and the men were killed, the women enslaved, whatever. I mean, obviously, men were enslaved too, different systems. But like, essentially,

• 1:19:40Liv Albert?

  it was because it happened to you.

• 1:19:44Liv Albert?

  Like something terrible happened to you or your people and you ended up enslaved in either the same or a different city, kingdom, country, whatever, right? But it it came with like, it doesn't, it doesn't make it good, but it's a very different mechanism. And it was terrible, but there was a means of achieving freedom. They did have more and better treatment by and large. And I'm sure there are experts on ancient enslavement that would have so much to say about this. So I just am talking really, really, really broadly about the systems themselves. Because what's being said here is that it was not like the transatlantic slave trade. And that is deeply, deeply accurate.

• 1:20:29Liv Albert?

  There were people who were enslaved, but because it was coming from this, like, I mean, it's still imperial, still super, super problematic. But there's a really, really big difference between a, the problematic nature of imperialism, colonizing, conquering a land and then taking its people as slaves and then going to a completely different land that you are not at war with, that you have no overall issue with, except to say that these people aren't human and we're going to take them to serve us. Like, that is an enormously different thing because ancient enslavement didn't come with the racialness.

• 1:21:10Liv Albert?

  It didn't matter what color your skin was, it, it, or where you came from. If your region lost a war, you could have ended up in enslavement. And like, you, it, it wasn't like carried down over generations. Like, all of this stuff is just fundamentally different. And so while there absolutely were enslaved people in ancient Greece, but then even if you compare it to Rome, it wasn't as, it wasn't as organized and like Rome is a little closer even, like, there's so much complexity. So like, absolutely, there was enslavement. It was terrible, but I can see why. And I think that's just like, or almost like a miscommunication, a misunderstanding of the question or context or whatever. But like, I can see why there is like a pushback

• 1:21:54Liv Albert?

  because it wasn't, it wasn't what it was in the transatlantic slave trade. That was one of the worst things that humanity has ever done to its fellow humans. And it is fundamentally different. It's also a really awkward thing to talk about, obviously. And I'm like a white settler settler from Canada, but like, it is very different. And I think that we need to keep them as like, these very separate ideas, like chattel slavery versus ancient enslavement. Because it, because we can't ever minimize what the transatlantic slave trade and the Americans did. That can never and should never be minimized. And so I can see that difference. Now, when it comes to the Minoans, I think that's like,

• 1:22:38Liv Albert?

  possibly a different argument. We really have like, no evidence. So it's like, impossible to say because we don't have like, writing from them. But generally, like, this is a really good question. And I think it's important to understand, like, even this really broad difference between, between these types of, of enslavement, because they really are so fundamentally different. And this is not the question I wanted to end it on. But I also think I don't have a much more time. Oh, there was another good one. Either way, nerds, thank you so, so, so, so much for listening. I think I will have ended it on

• 1:23:19Liv Albert?

  that enslavement question, because I do have to run. But I really, I love these. If you all have more, honestly, if, if more come in, in time for me to do another one, like on Tuesday, I would love to. So if you have questions from this, or if you have voice notes that you want to send, because you heard these, please do. And I will do another Q and A, honestly, as soon as I have enough questions from you. So, thank you all so fucking much. I love, I love that I've been doing this for eight years. It's really cool. And I'm just so proud of everything I've done. And I'm so proud of you listeners. And I love you so much. Really, like, it's really fucking nice, so thank you.

• 1:24:01Liv Albert?

  I really love talking about this stuff and I think it's so important and I love the complexities and it's just, ugh.

• 1:24:08Liv Albert?

  Thank you for caring about all of this. Honestly, truly, thank you. Let's Talk O' Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pangawish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer. If you add in more questions, uh, Michaela and I really want to do a Q and A together, so get those in, maybe some more history stuff, whatever you want to ask Michaela, we are keen. If you are interested in ad-free episodes of the show along with loads of other cool bonus stuff, check out our Patreon, the Oracle Edition, patreon.com/mithsbaby. This is our way of trying to build the show outside of the confines of the American advertising industry, because I really fear that we're not going to have enough money to keep going

• 1:24:52Liv Albert?

  based on that. So if you have ever thought about being a patron, I know everything is so hard right now, times are so fucking tough, so totally understand if you can't, but times are tough, so I gotta mention it. Thank you so much. Um, more on the Memory Collective soon. I really want to do so much with it. If you have suggestions on creators, academics, whatever, that might be interested in being involved, feel free to send them in. Everything is so appreciated. And remember, mythsbaby.com/questions if you have more, and mythsbaby.com/newsletter to, um, stay abreast of the situation. I'm really expecting the site and hopefully merch

• 1:25:31Liv Albert?

  to be up and running super soon. So, thank you all. I love you all. I am Liv and I love this shit.

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