Michelle Buteau on Comedy, Community and Calling Out Dave Chappelle

Comedian Michelle Buteau is a true mutli-hyphenate — actor, standup comic, TV host, podcaster, and executive producer — and she wouldn’t have it any other way. Kara spoke to Buteau about the season 2 launch of “Survival of the Thickest,” a Netflix series loosely based on her 2020 memoir, and how she’s using her life stories to push the boundaries of representation. They also talked about Buteau’s 20-year stand up career, how she became the first woman to record a special in Radio City Music Hall (“A Buteau-ful Mind”), why she stands by calling out Dave Chappelle for his transgender jokes, and how she wants to use her producing prowess to uplift more marginalized voices, despite the current political climate. Questions? Comments? Email us at [email protected] or find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Bluesky @onwithkaraswisher. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Kara Swisher?

  You know, it's OK for you to swear on this podcast. I hope you're not worried about that.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Thank fucking god.

• 0:18Kara Swisher?

  Hi, everyone. From New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network, this is On with Kara Swisher, and I'm Kara Swisher. My guest today is Michelle Buteau, the multi-hyphenate comedian, writer, actor, and producer, and one of my favorites. Last year, she made history as the first female comic to record a stand-up special at Radio City Music Hall, A Beautiful Mind, her second special for Netflix, and she starred in the movie Babes with Alana Glazer. Buteau's comedy has been described as dynamic, conversational, and big-hearted. I just think she makes me feel good, and I think comics right now are doing some of the most trenchant analysis of what's happening from a variety of different viewpoints, not always things I agree with, but I'm really enjoying how much comics are really contributing to the conversation now, especially compared to a lot of people, including our politicians.

• 1:02Kara Swisher?

  The second season of her Netflix series, Survival of the Thickest, came out last week, the same day we talked. The show is loosely based on Buteau's memoir, personal essays, which she published back in 2020. It's about the size-inclusive stylist who wants to change the fashion industry and not just for big girls, and she surrounds herself with friends, including friends in the transgender community, that help her do that. I think it's a wonderful show. There's a series of shows right now that have a lot of political elements that aren't so obvious, but actually are about joy and friendship and community. I think it's just what we need around this time, because they're also not silly and stupid. They're actually quite substantive, and this is one of those shows, and it does make you feel better, because everything Michelle does tends to do that. I want to talk with Michelle about her decades-long career and how she thinks about representation

• 1:47Kara Swisher?

  in her work, the current political agenda that's set on dehumanizing people, and what she's manifesting for the future. By the way, if you want to see someone I think is extremely funny, and you're in New York on Monday, April 7th, join me for a live taping of On with Kara Swisher with comedian Josh Johnson of The Daily Show, one of my favorites and one of my son Louis's favorites, absolutely. The event is at Cooper Union's Great Hall, and it's free. But you do- You have to get tickets. Search for Cooper Union and Kara Swisher online to register. Okay, now let's get to Michelle Butto. Our expert question today comes from her babes, co-star and good friend, Alana Glazer. It's going to be fun and thought provoking, so stick around.

• 2:38Speaker 02

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• 3:23Speaker 03

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• 4:06Speaker 04

  I'm Josh Mucchio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't. Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands, deep tech that changes the weather. Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand. We've got hardware that helps blind people see and dairy.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  I never imagined my life journey would be milk.

• 4:36Speaker 04

  Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 4:44Kara Swisher?

  Michelle Buteau, welcome. Thanks for being on On. I hear you were just in Australia filming your next movie. I was there too, just recently. How was the trip?

• 4:52Speaker 01

  The trip was long. I felt like I was in a spaceship for a whole day. And I was in the future and I didn't know who I was. And everyone kept telling me.

• 4:58Kara Swisher?

  Tomorrow.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  We have this wonderful thing called avocado toast. I'm like, yeah, I heard of it. Where do you guys live? Australia's interesting. And the running joke is that they're all convicts. I'm like, you guys got to come up with another joke.

• 5:10Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, they're not all convicts, by the way. And they tell you they're not the convict people. Yes, they're very particular about, we're not the convict people. I'm like, I feel like those are people who are dead. So I don't have a judgment going on there. What were you doing there? Talk a little bit about the trip.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  It's beautiful. I was filming a movie called Spa Weekend, written and directed by John Lucas and Scott Moore, who also did Bad Moms. And I was filming with Leslie Mann, Isla Fisher and Anna Faris.

• 5:35Kara Swisher?

  Wow.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  And me.

• 5:37Kara Swisher?

  That's a gang.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  It was amazing.

• 5:39Kara Swisher?

  So it's a ladies. It's like White Lotus, right? But funny, essentially.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  You know, but funny, yes.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a, it was a time. It was a masterclass. It was beautiful. I was pinching myself. I was like in my body and outside of my body. It was. Amazing. It was really amazing. And what I love about, I mean, I've been doing this for like 25 years, right? I've been doing this since Taylor Swift had curly hair. That's how long I've been doing this. And to still do things that I am excited about, it feels like I'm starting all over again. It's like the first day of school is like, really dope. Yeah.

• 6:15Kara Swisher?

  Well, that's fantastic. So you've been really busy, for people to understand. We're recording this on the same day that season two of your Netflix show, which I love, Survival of the Thickest premieres. Congratulations. I think it's a wonderful.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Thank you. Did you watch, uh, did you watch it?

• 6:28Kara Swisher?

  Yes, I watched the first season and then they sent me early, early things. There's a series of series happening right now. Running Point is another one that I think are just lovely to watch and they're fun and interesting and feature women, different, different. But the series is based on your book, A Personal Essay that came out in 2020. Can you explain the show? You're Mavis Beaumont, an up and coming stylist. Talk to me a little bit about the show and how you conceived it.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. It's so interesting that you mentioned Running Point because also co-created by Mindy Kaling. So like, when you have women of color in positions of power, you know, to call the shots and to really, you know, as we say, put their foot in it and create something delicious, then it's only gonna sing. And so that's why diversity matters. That's why, you know, when you have a table, make sure that everybody gets a seat, but come to that table with some manners. Okay? Not Mindy. I'm just, you know, throwing stra- strays to people who don't have manners. But, um, you know, and that's the beautiful thing about working with Netflix, too. It's like such an international platform. It isn't like the old school networks where you really have to fit a circle in a square and it's

• 7:38Speaker 01

  just like my wife and kids and, you know, it's just giving, we subscribe to two genders. It's like, no. Life is wild and beautiful and we have vocabulary to like describe our feelings and, you know, our journeys in a way we never had before. And I love that Netflix is like, the more you do you, the more specific you are, the better it is. So I love that you... Said running point because one of my writer producers, Grace Edwards, who's amazing on my show, also worked on that show. And I'm just like, I love women of color. So I have been doing stand up for a long time. And most stand up comedians will tell you, I want to write a book. We don't know about what. We just like, feel like it's on the list. Like, you want to go to the Montreal Festival. You want to do late night. You want to do

• 8:23Speaker 01

  a special. You want to do a half hour special, an hour special with like a maroon curtain behind you. And like, you know, just looking up at the crowd and waving and be like, and just wearing like a black suit, you know, like.

• 8:33Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, there's a journey.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  There's a journey, right? And there's like a list that everybody, but anyways, I wanted to write a book. I met a book agent, Robert Gunsler, who's working with Phoebe Robinson and Jeannie Asher Ray. And I didn't understand what the idea was. I just was like, I have buckets of personality. I want to do something. And this is so long ago. And then I started my IVF journey. And I'm like, I'm busy. I don't have time to do this. And I was doing morning TV on VH1. And he kept checking in. He's like, what's the book? What's the book? At this point, I'm like, 2016, 17, 18. I'm like, I don't have time to write a book. Plus, like, who's going to read it? And so I got into this, like, this, I guess it would be like imposter syndrome or something. I don't know what to call it.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  But I was doing that thing where I was telling myself, no, before like, other people told me, no. And I was like, I don't, what's the point? Which is so, like, I think that's part of the process. And you should feel that. But like, you gotta.

• 9:27Kara Swisher?

  A lot of people do that.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  You gotta try. You know what I mean? You gotta try. It doesn't have to be perfect. It just has to be done. And then when I finally was over this IVF journey and brought my twins home, in the hospital, I'm like, I think I have time to write a book now that I have twins at home? What was I thinking?

• 9:43Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  So I signed on. I tried and I couldn't really get anything together. And I didn't know what I wanted to share. And I was either sharing too much or not enough. I'm like, is this funny? Is this too emotional, too sincere? What's my place? What's my voice on paper? But I had all these stories, like, through podcasting or storytelling shows that didn't fit into straight up stand up. And I was like, these stories mean something and they're wild. But where do they go? And Phoebe Robinson gave me a great piece of advice when she was writing her book, that she told me, and she didn't make it up, but someone told her, write like everyone you know is dead?

• 10:21Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:23Speaker 01

  I don't know. That worked for me. I was able to sort of. Get over my writer's block and just spaghetti theory that shit.

• 10:32Kara Swisher?

  How did it move into the show? Because you're not a stylist.

• 10:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I was just like, get it done. I don't know who's gonna read it and who cares, you know? What I didn't realize is that like, a lot of people were waiting for a lot of IP from me. Because I was pitching a lot of stuff, I was writing a lot of stuff, but I I realized that I wasn't writing it in my voice. I was writing stuff for what I thought people wanted. And that's why I wasn't able to sell anybody. So when Kristen Zolner, an amazing executive that was at Netflix, and now she's moved on to other stuff. She read it and she was like, this has to be a show. Like, and this is even the name of the show. And I couldn't have imagined like, that that's how a show would get done. Because I thought you'd do like, a really strong stand-up set on Fallon.

• 11:19Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 11:20Speaker 01

  You know, a la Roseanne Barr or Ellen, you know, and and that's how you get your show? Or you just keep pitching and writing, or you go to a festival? But it's like, no, pouring your heart and soul out in a bunch of essays about anything.

• 11:34Kara Swisher?

  You started your career in journalism and after nine 11 decided to pursue comedy. Explain to me what you're doing in this particular show. Is it, this is you, this character, but it happens to be a stylist? What's the sort of main themes from your perspective?

• 11:48Speaker 01

  I thought being a stylist was such a great parallel to stand-up comedy, you know, having parents from the Caribbean. They work so hard to give you everything and a good education. And when I told my parents I was doing stand-up, they're like, but you still have a job, right? They couldn't wrap their mind around it. And I could see Mavis' parents being like, people can dress themselves. What are you doing? And so there was that. And being a stylist is also one of these like, great artistic jobs in New York where you could make no money or make all the money. You could be in a back alley styling someone or like, in a penthouse, like, in two days. It's also one of those jobs, much like comedy too, where you have to fight, you have to hustle.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  You have to like, listen to your inner voice, you know, intuition's everything. You have to put yourself out there. And then also, I thought being a stylist was a great way to showcase. The discrepancies in fashion and, you know,

• 12:45Speaker 01

  and really being a stylist is serving the stories where everybody deserves to feel loved on and that we don't have to live up to some unrealistic patriarchal standard of beauty. Like even though we don't see ourselves in those magazines, we can see ourselves within each other. And so I thought fashion was a great way to do that, too. And then honestly, being a stylist, I was like,

• 13:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, you could do photo shoots.

• 13:10Speaker 01

  She's gotta wear really cute clothes, guys. We need a budget for the clothes.

• 13:13Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, that's funny. But what were you gonna do in journalism? What was your thought of why you wanted to do that?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. I really wanted to be an entertainment reporter. I wanted to be Mary Hart, John Tesh, and wanted to wear a statement lip and have some shoulder pads and give you the news for a half hour after dinner. And that's what I really wanted to do. Because my mom and I loved reading The Inquirer and like just having tea time. And I went to school in Miami for TV production. And I remember we were going around the class and my professor was like, what do you guys want to do with this degree? And I said, entertainment, journalism and entertainment reporter. And he said, well, you're just simply too fat to be on camera. And I was so, I was so, I was so young, I was like 18 or 19.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  And I was taught to like, respect my elders and not question people.

• 14:07Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  And so while I was like, kind of embarrassed, I was also like, he's right. I don't see myself anywhere on TV. So I guess that's true and sort of accepted it and went into production. So I'm like, well, at least I still get to be a part of the process.

• 14:24Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  But even editing people and field producing, I was so tired of telling basic people how to have fun. I'm like, where's your joy, bitch? Find it. Why are you here?

• 14:33Kara Swisher?

  Right. But speaking about your childhood, in your book, you write about watching TV as a kid and not seeing anyone, as you said, with your body shape. It happened way before that.

• 14:42Kara Swisher?

  You made the show, I think you were missing back then in a lot of ways, despite the title Survival of the Thickest. It's more than about survival. It's, I mean, it's obviously a pun on survival of the fittest. But it's about the joy of being the thickest and using thickest as a positive term, right?

• 14:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:57Kara Swisher?

  For people who haven't seen it. Can you describe a scene where you feel like you really nailed that joy? Or is it a more general vibe, what you do and don't say?

• 15:07Speaker 01

  I think it's more of a general vibe. You know, there's, there's at no point where my character doesn't think she's sexy or worthy of love, you know? And I feel like, let's lead by example, you know? It's funny because in the pilot, when my character gets cheated on, she tells her best friend Khalil, like, how dare he leave me for like a skinny version of me? And a lot of people were like, oh, oh, here we go. Another big girl feeling sorry for herself. It's like, no, I like, she's sorry that this happened and she's just stating what happened. But

• 15:42Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  At no point does she think that her size is not beautiful. And that is the main takeaway.

• 15:49Kara Swisher?

  Right, right. I think that that was interesting because you do exude that, like, I look great. I look sexy. Even the first scene with your, your boyfriend in the back, when you're looking at clothes is like that. Which I was noticing, I was like, huh, that's, you don't see that. It's usually the center of the topic.

• 16:04Speaker 01

  I'm so tired of that.

• 16:05Kara Swisher?

  I am too, but, but all the body positivity has been a thing for a while. But in the past year or so, obviously, and part of my next book is about some of these drugs around, weight loss, around psychedelics, the whole bunch of stuff about future tech. And, but no spoilers, but I did catch a hint of diss in season two when your characters say, look out Oprah Gail on the side of Ozempic. Did you ever want to use these things in the plot? Because it's called Survival of the Thickest and there are body issues in it, although it's not the center of, of the plot, which I really appreciated because again, it could have gone that way.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think enough people are talking about Ozempic. It was more just like, it was more just like a joke because it's so in the zeitgeist. Do you know what I mean? But there's a lot of like, those little throwaways that like mean something, you know? Like deep in the season, I think it's like episode seven or eight, Mavis gets into it with a fashion designer who has decided to just design skinny bodies. And I remember one of my improv lines that I fought to keep in there was like, leave dressing skinny white women to Kanye, that's his thing. And everyone's like, oh, we don't know about that. I'm like, I do.

• 17:16Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 17:16Speaker 01

  I do, leave it in there. You know, it says what it needs to say, we can move on.

• 17:20Kara Swisher?

  Perfect timing, perfect timing now. I mean, he just continues to step in it.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  You know?

• 17:26Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 17:35Speaker 02

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• 18:20Kara Swisher?

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• 19:03Kara Swisher?

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• 19:33Kara Swisher?

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• 20:18Kara Swisher?

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• 20:39Kara Swisher?

  This show is about flipping conversations about bodies, all shapes and sizes. You and Alana Glazer kind of did this last year with Babes, which I loved, the movie.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you for watching!

• 20:48Kara Swisher?

  No, I know, I talked to Alana about it, but it's essentially about motherhood, but you push back against reviews that called it raunchy. There was a lot of discussion about body sex and bodily fluids and stuff like that. A lot of shows are starting to enter that with women very explicitly talking about it, and I guess in some weird way Sex and the City did it, but they did it in a clean, white lady way, I guess. I don't know what else to say, but...

• 21:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, fancy way.

• 21:10Kara Swisher?

  Fancy way. Talk a little bit about that idea. I didn't think it was raunchy, but I could see why people did at the same time. If I could, you know, I try hard to be like, huh, why do they think that?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, Alana and I were talking about this too. It's so crazy, because we were just like, how is this raunchy when it's just the female truth? But we realize that females aren't allowed to say things. Don't complain, don't talk about your body, be sexy, not too sexy, be smart, but not too smart, you know, have an opinion, but don't keep talking. And so it's just like, we're constantly... Figuring out how to take our space up, whether it's in a room or like on the subway. And I'm really kind of tired of it. Like, I'm not really kind of tired. I'm actually exhausted. Like, I have been tap dancing for the patriarchy way too long, you know? And we keep talking about a boys' club and this, that and the third. I'm just like, what about the gays in the days?

• 22:02Speaker 01

  You know, getting back to the whole, like, Mavis is not going to apologize for being big and being loved on. I have so much in common when I talk to gay men and they talk about like being in high school and the guys that like always really loved them, but we were always a secret. And it's just like, we're not a secret anymore.

• 22:18Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  To say we're a secret is to say something's wrong with us.

• 22:21Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  And I think also for women, especially since like our bodies are under attack. Like, we are literally fighting to make decisions about our own holes. Insane. I can't. Oh, my God, Mitch McConnell and his three chins. Let's just move on. I don't want to body shame his face, but look.

• 22:40Kara Swisher?

  Go ahead.

• 22:43Speaker 01

  But look.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's just like, I don't even feel comfortable having this conversation with my doctor. What? That's crazy. And I am bending over backwards, killing myself to have health insurance, which is like a luxury in America. And when I even show up, I have to make my male doctor feel comfortable, which is

• 23:02Speaker 01

  what I love about those scenes that Alana and Josh wrote in Babes. It's like, even though we are in our most vulnerable positions, legs up, scoot down. Why am I scooting down? Why is there even a chair? Do you know what I mean?

• 23:12Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  I still have to make you and your hair transplant comfortable. It's like so insane. And so

• 23:18Kara Swisher?

  Feel better.

• 23:19Speaker 01

  You know, I do feel like arts, film, TV, music.

• 23:23Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 23:23Speaker 01

  You know, you can, you can move the needle. It is culture. You can have a conversation.

• 23:28Kara Swisher?

  You know, it actually reminds me, it's interesting you talk about that. When I was pregnant, I have a female gynecologist. And I had, she was away, and so someone had to check me at the very last parts of my pregnancy. And it was a guy. It was a guy. It was a male doctor. And some male doctors are great. I don't, you know, I wouldn't pune all male doctors. But he did the checkup and he was rough, right? He was a lot rough. And he made me bleed right at the end of my pregnancy, right? When he was doing it. And, and I said, what in the actual fuck, like in the, in the room? And he didn't say sorry. And of course, you're demented at the end of your pregnancy because you think everything's going to go wrong, right?

• 24:01Speaker 01

  I know.

• 24:03Kara Swisher?

  So I said, I said, you and your fucking man hands. And I, I go, he goes, what? And I said, your man hands made me bleed. Do not have your man hands made bleed. Never do that to a woman. And he was like shocked. And I was like, man hands? He goes, I don't have man hands. I go, man hands? And this was like, it felt like a Larry David episode or something. But babes, babes is actually a story about friendship. There is a lot of ra- there's not raunchy. It's, that's not the right word. It's just explicit, I guess.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:27Kara Swisher?

  Um, and you talk about things women actually talk about, but you have a longstanding friendship with Alana in your real life. You spent 20 years working in comedy before landing, uh, you know, you're an overnight sensation after 20 years, before landing your first special. You were on the road with a lot of big name comedians, Amy Schumer, Hannibal Buress, uh, Camille Nanjani, who's a lovely guy, name a few. Um, how do these relationships affect you? And did their work influence you? Um, you write about a fellow comic stealing your stuff, which I think is common. Uh, it might've been Camille, actually. I don't know who it was, but, um,

• 24:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 24:59Kara Swisher?

  I'm teasing you.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. Wait, can I just get back to man hands for two seconds?

• 25:04Kara Swisher?

  Sure, sure.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Because I, you know, I wasn't able to carry, so we had a surrogate. And so it felt so, I felt so outside of my body, like, because surrogacy was illegal, illegal in New York. So we went to the closest state, which was Pennsylvania. These surrogates are like walking angels on earth.

• 25:22Kara Swisher?

  They are.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  And I remember she had to go to another doctor at the end and she started to bleed because he was rough and she was carrying my twins and looked super tender. And so I remember, this took me back because I remember her crying on the phone. And I was just, it felt like someone just lit me up. I wanted to run to Pennsylvania at that point.

• 25:42Kara Swisher?

  Go and get him.

• 25:43Speaker 01

  It was like a Costco sized serving of road rage.

• 25:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 25:47Speaker 01

  Just to, you know what I mean? And I, I feel like no matter what life and the universe is always telling me to share your space, share your heart and defend people when they need it the most. And, you know, if anything, being the only child and going to so many schools has taught me to collaborate well, listen to people, be a team player, it isn't all about me. We can work better together, we're stronger together, recognize when someone doesn't have your back and move on. Don't try to convince a bad person that you're a good person. Because I used to be like, no, no, no, we could do this. No, no, no, we could do this. I'm just like, why am I so upset? And so saying, the man hands of it all, I was like, I, I mean, I really found my inner Karen.

• 26:32Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 26:32Speaker 01

  You know? And then I stomped with Andy Cohen in New York to overturn gestational um, surrogacy.

• 26:39Kara Swisher?

  I didn't believe, when you just said it was illegal, I was like, what? Like, what are you talking about?

• 26:43Speaker 01

  And even the reasons that, because we talked to a bunch of officials and even the reasons that they were talking about like, but is it sex work? And it's just like, sex isn't even involved. Like, why are you sexualizing everything? How come like, alternative family planning is not a priority on your list? Everyone deserves love. And this is like, also the themes in my show. Everyone deserves love. It doesn't matter what they look like or how they identify. You know, it's called humanity, bitch. Look it the fuck up. Like, what are we talking about? And so like, it was so crazy and beautiful and like, just, just heart wrenching, meeting cancer survivors who were able to like, save their eggs because they want to, you know, they knew that they want to start a family and they knew that they were going to survive cancer. How are you to say to them, no? Like,

• 27:28Speaker 01

  what are you even? So, all this to say, man hands, not into it. In fact, I mean,

• 27:34Kara Swisher?

  This should be the name of your next book if you want. But tell me about your colleagues when you, when you're on the road with colleagues.

• 27:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness. You know that saying, you are the company you keep? I do think it's the same in comedy. What I love is about comedy is like, it's such a motley crew. It's such a ragtag of like, fuckery. And um, you're really forced to be in a space with someone that you ordinarily would never hang out with. And the common theme is, how do we make shit funny? We've all been through a lot.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  Everyone's been through a lot, but we recognize it and we talk about it, you know, and we just see the world a different way. And so I actually miss, I miss going to comedy clubs and hanging out with people, but I don't miss late nights because I want to be in my bed at 9:30.

• 28:21Kara Swisher?

  Oh, you're one of those.

• 28:21Speaker 01

  Did I answer your question? I don't even know.

• 28:23Kara Swisher?

  Yes, it's fine, but this actually works perfectly into this question. Every week we get a question from an outside expert. We have a special one for you.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 28:30Speaker 05

  Hi there. Alana Glazer here with a question for Michelle Butto. Michelle, I am privileged to be close to you and to be friends with you for many, many, many years. And I've watched you always bring so much energy and life and juice and sauce to every room you walk into. Things have been very full for you from putting out your stand-up special as the first woman to film a stand-up special in Radio City Music Hall, putting out the second season of Survival of the Thickest, which you worked so hard to do from the inside out, and you just finished filming a movie overseas.

• 29:09Speaker 05

  What is a moment you remember from being a kid or a teenager that connects to this moment of fullness for you? Sending you love. Love you. You're both my heroes.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  What? And then this is your life is going on.

• 29:26Kara Swisher?

  I know. This is it. So, it's a great question.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, this is so, this is so ridiculous, but I, um, maybe I was seven or eight and I lived on a cul-de-sac in Jersey. And, um, instead of just drawing, I made like a little magazines. I found the stapler and I was like, oh, I could put it together. And then I decided to make a bunch of magazines and I called it Head Over Heels.

• 29:57Speaker 01

  And I had like a severed head in a shoe and I was very literal. Uh, and then like I would kind of write, um, stories about all the happenings on the cul-de-sac. Like so and so's dog pooped, so and so's like doing their pool over. And I would put it in everybody's mailbox. And at one point, the neighbors asked my parents, uh, for me to stop putting stuff in their mailbox.

• 30:20Speaker 01

  But I just remember thinking, this is so fun. I didn't understand what community organizing was then, but I was like, I'm gonna bring everyone together. And this is gonna be really fun and I get to be artistic.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  And then also I was rejected and I was like, okay, got it. You don't want to hear from me? That's weird.

• 30:46Speaker 01

  That's such like a moment for like what this career is.

• 30:50Kara Swisher?

  Right. I'm gonna keep putting stuff in your mailbox.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Like you put your heart and soul out there and someone's like, I don't know enough of me. It's like, you can't even appreciate the thing I made? It's very mother in law at Thanksgiving. It's like, but taste it, you know?

• 31:08Kara Swisher?

  Yeah. Wow. How dare you. Did you continue? Did you keep going?

• 31:11Speaker 01

  No, I moved on and this is also telling. I was like-

• 31:14Kara Swisher?

  Head over heels was head one issue?

• 31:17Speaker 01

  You know, I think around college I came up with this like mantra for myself and it was dating, but it can, it, it actually applies to the industry. If you don't want to hear from me, you're gonna hear about me. But, and so I moved on and I started the Pound Puppy Cabbage Patch Kid Club.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  I invited four or five girls.

• 31:35Kara Swisher?

  Oh, that's a position of power.

• 31:37Speaker 01

  Had to come over.

• 31:37Kara Swisher?

  And, and it's interesting because community is, it's about community, I think is what you're talking about. It's a major theme in Survival of the Tickest as well. In season two, you lean into your character's connections with the transgender community. It's not overtly political, but it is. Talk a little about the community because this came up in your Netflix specials, a stand-up special at Radio City Music Hall, Beautiful Mind. You tell a joke about beautiful black lesbian friend. Everybody laughs. And then you go meta and reflect on making that joke. I want to- Play the clip first and then what you reflect on.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Okay. We could tell jokes and stories and not disparage a whole community.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  We can do that. We can make it funny. We just have to work at it, right? So if you guys ever run into Dave Chappelle, can you let him know that shit?

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I don't think he know that shit. I don't think we'll ever run into Dave, though, because he is the GOAT. And he is the GOAT, if that means going off about trans people. Dave, it's not funny. It's dangerous. Make it funny.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  That's all.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  I can't believe somebody would make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel unsafe. That is so wild to me. Like, truly.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  I'm manifesting this shit tonight. This is a Radio City Music Hall takeover. And I'm gonna tell everybody, I want to make millions and millions of dollars for making people feel safe, seen, secure, heard, and entertained.

• 33:15Kara Swisher?

  You're making a really salient point here. I went off on Netflix on Chappelle only because I was like, it's not funny. Like, it's also an hour of not funny. He had a bit about lesbians also wasn't funny, but I was like, I'm up for lesbian jokes. If they're good, they're good. I'm willing to listen to them. I'm not overly sensitive. Talk about that idea of what you're doing there and you're doing it on the show again. And actually, you're not just calling out Chappelle, you're making the point about what's funny and what makes money. Talk a little bit about what you were doing here.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  I feel like once you're given the opportunity to speak your mind on a platform, then be responsible and do that. And so I can show up and be funny and write jokes and not offend.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  But it's not about that. It's about making people think. Have some thought-provoking anything. And...

• 34:13Speaker 01

  I really had to say something because it is dangerous.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  And people are being rewarded for that. And I'm just like,

• 34:23Speaker 01

  and the internet really tried to hand my ass back to me, you know, and it's like,

• 34:29Speaker 01

  and the same parallel with this administration is just like, why do you get to say the most egregious shit, but I can't put my hand up and say, I do not agree?

• 34:37Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  That's dangerous too. Why would you punch down on a marginalized community?

• 34:43Kara Swisher?

  Constantly.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  That's not fun. That's not even how comedy really works. And so a lot of these comedians who are just like, you can't say anything anymore. You can, just make it funny. Put the work in. You can do it. You've done it before. By the way, y'all were woke 20, 25 years ago. Don't forget that. I think it's really egregious to say these horrible things, not just a lot of it, like it's okay to say these really egregious egregious things about people who cannot defend themselves. People who are trying to live their life, standing their truth, and you have the government saying you don't exist and you shouldn't exist? That's insane.

• 35:25Kara Swisher?

  This is where it leads.

• 35:26Speaker 01

  And culture makes a difference. Look at Kendrick Lamar's halftime show. Okay, you can do that. I'm not saying everybody's gotta, you know, stand on business and be political all the time, but like, if you're gonna say something,

• 35:43Speaker 01

  at least make it funny.

• 35:45Kara Swisher?

  Or entertaining.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  You know, because these people are like really rich and they get to say whatever they want to say. Then they go on their private jets and they talk to who they're gonna talk to. And they have yes, people around them and everybody works for them and they go home and they're safe. No, we have to be out in the world. We have to walk down that street and get ourselves home. We have to be on the subway. You know, and people are like looking up to these people and listening to them, whether they're a politician or a musician or a comedian. And so.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  I um.

• 36:15Kara Swisher?

  And you went the other way in in survival where you really integrated in the trans. You integrated them into the show, which was interesting. When you just um.

• 36:24Speaker 01

  But it's not in to me, it's not integration.

• 36:26Kara Swisher?

  It's just your life.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  It's life.

• 36:28Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  It's like, you know, I I told Netflix from jump, I want to show my my version of New York City. And this is my, you know, like, I grew up in New York City in my twenties, my thirties. And that is just like, I love Sex and the City, I love Friends, I love Seinfeld. But I'm just like, y'all don't have one Puerto Rican friend. Y'all live in New York City, that's crazy. Not one black friend, not one given, what is going on? So like.

• 36:49Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 36:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I'm like, we're not going to a diner, we're going to the drag bar.

• 36:54Kara Swisher?

  Right, right.

• 36:55Speaker 01

  That's that's where we met up.

• 36:56Kara Swisher?

  Did you worry at all in both those instances about calling out someone as powerful as Dave Chappelle, given the political environment? You said the internet handed it back to you.

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm still trying to figure out my relationship with social media.

• 37:10Kara Swisher?

  Ignore it.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  You know, um.

• 37:12Kara Swisher?

  It's the loudest people in the room, it's not reality.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, and um, because there's like so many sick people in my family, I know that we're not promised tomorrow. And so I'm just like, I am who I am, I'm going to stand on business, it's going to be hard. It hurts my feelings, I move on, it doesn't determine my worth or happiness. And I'm doing it for those people that need it, you know? Because I like that one voice like matters, you know what I mean? Like, if I can make someone feel better seen, then that's all that matters. And, you know, the DMs that people send me or the stories that they tell to my bloated freckled face at 4 a.m. in the airport, I do appreciate.

• 38:01Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, me too. There's another moment in the special where you tell a story about being high and your husband dragging you to a reptile exhibit, where you have a special encounter with a bearded dragon and a maga lady. You do really don't, you go right in there, let's listen to this.

• 38:15Speaker 01

  The tour guide was like so happy, he's like. She never does this. She trusts you. She loves you. And I was like, she sure do, but honestly, right now, it's giving they/them.

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Just being on the real rail. And then I heard a voice in the pack of camouflage saying, oh, you one of them woke ones?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I'm a little high.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  And I go, what'd you say? I couldn't hear you through your four good teeth.

• 38:57Speaker 01

  Don't come for me unless I send for you, bitch. See, I wanna be nice. Girl, I wanna be nice, but, you know, people don't think that I can be mean because it is giving jolly, you know, back fat, freckles, you know what I mean? But like, don't do it.

• 39:11Kara Swisher?

  Talk about what happened next, because your husband takes a stick back and you get serious. Talk about what happened next.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so wild, like, you know, it's so wild when you feel like you're an adult and, you know, you know how to protect your peace. You're not gonna like, you know, participate in road rage. But some people just push your buttons sometimes. They get the right moment, the perfect storm, but no George Clooney. And I got like the Jersey Mall parking lot in the back of my throat. And I'm just like, are we doing this? Am I a DMX song? Are you really coming for me? But it was bigger picture, because I knew exactly, it's just like woke.

• 39:46Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:46Speaker 01

  Okay, it really felt like I was on a Megyn Kelly podcast. I was like, let me just tell you something. And like, I can't even, like, you know, I can't even imagine what it would be like as a non-binary or trans person trying to defend yourself to somebody. Like, that is so insane, because I'm lit up. I am lit up. And I, as a straight woman, I'm lit up. And I'm like, what is happening? And so... Look, do I think it made a difference in her life? I don't know, but I know I feel better about it. And I wrote a joke about it.

• 40:20Kara Swisher?

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes you just gotta say the thing and know when to walk away.

• 40:24Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I didn't mind it at all.

• 40:26Speaker 01

  And what I do too is wear the outfit the next day. Because I need like a better memory in the outfit. And so I do that. Because it's like, how dare you make me wear this shirt?

• 40:34Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, I just had a debate with Scott and Scott Geller, my podcast, about whether you can say things to cyber truck owners. I'm like, yes, you can. They bought it. They made a choice. And he's like, you should be civil. I said, only white guys can talk about civility. Gay people, people of color don't have the, have been beat upon for years. And maybe they go too far. Maybe they push too hard. But it's because after years of people saying shit to your face constantly. And I was like, and sometimes you just, you've had it. You've had it. And you may be censorious.

• 41:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:03Kara Swisher?

  But they actually do the thing. You may be irritating, the left may be irritating, but the right actually does something about it, like banning books or taking words out. I said, the people taking words out are actually the Trump administration out of government. I was like, left wing people are irritating at the, at the worst. And, and they actually make things happen. So I was like, I think I'd feel good pushing back. You know, the opposite of DEI is, it's diversity, equity, inclusion is homogeneity, inequality and exclusion. So I was like, I'm, I'm for DEI then.

• 41:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I see that, I'm just like, okay, I get to have a show. It's going to be the biggest, the blackest, the queerest, the baddest, the sexiest shit you have ever seen. Because everything is feeling like a takeover.

• 41:48Kara Swisher?

  Which Chappelle did originally, didn't he? He did, he really did originally with his show. Did that, that very thing. The interaction feels very real. And obviously, the situation has gotten a lot worse for trans people recently. I interviewed Laverne Cox earlier this year, right before her prime show, Clean Slate, came out. She was talking about how pushback against fascism, the politics of cruelty we're seeing right now. Let's listen what she said.

• 42:10Speaker 06

  For me, it's about humanizing people. It's about a rehumanizing process. If we start to look at this, every, at all of our politics and the lens of dehumanization versus rehumanization, how do we humanize individuals and people and change the language from culture war to human rights and civil rights? We, then if we, then we can start to frame these issues on our terms and on the terms around truth.

• 42:38Kara Swisher?

  So does it resonate, you like to say that is someone's child. Why do you think it's hard for most people to think, start from that perspective?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  I think it's because so many, I don't want to generalize, but a lot of white Americans, just like saying Americans, because I know some Europeans too, but let's just say that, never have to think outside of themselves. They never have to think outside of their five block radius. And they have, they will always be protected. In social situations, without anyone even knowing, the moment before, they are protected. Whether it's in a kindergarten class, whether it's on a football field, whether it's late at night, whatever it is, they are always protected. Excuse me.

• 43:34Speaker 01

  So sorry, I'm allergic to racism.

• 43:37Kara Swisher?

  You're okay?

• 43:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I have allergies. It's called Fox and Friends. But yeah, it's sort of like, it's this thing where you've never had to think about anybody else. And so for someone like me, a little light-skinned, a thick Caribbean gal in central Jersey, going to an all-white school, I've had to think about me. I've had to think about my family that is darker than me. I've had to think about my Chinese and Indian family. And I've had to figure out how to like, move in a white space since I was like, in first grade. And sort of explain why my hair does this. I have vocabulary about hair density at seven and eight, you know? It was so important to me to, in season one, episode five, to put in the show, the first

• 44:20Speaker 01

  time I was called the N-word, because that is a story that so many people can relate to. And everyone's got that story. And you definitely lose your innocence, you know? A lot of white kids lose their innocence when they find out Santa's not real.

• 44:37Kara Swisher?

  Right.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  But what about the little Afro-Latina and Black and Brown kids that lose their innocence when they've been called a nigger on the playground when they're five or six? And so it is... It's not a shared experience, but we can, and I like to over communicate, we can talk about it. And you know, and if you're open, so we can understand each other.

• 45:00Kara Swisher?

  One of the things, someone asked me why social media, for example, is so, is such a difficult place for a lot of people and why there's so much ugliness in it. And I said, because the people who designed it never felt unsafe a day in their lives. Because they don't understand lack of safety, because they don't experience it.

• 45:18Kara Swisher?

  We'll be back in a minute.

• 45:27Kara Swisher?

  Support for this show comes from Indeed. When the pressure's on and you need to hire the right person for the job, Indeed Sponsored Jobs has got your back. Instead of forcing you to spend tons of time searching, Indeed Sponsored Jobs matches you with quality candidates fast. According to their data, sponsored jobs posted directly on Indeed are 95% more likely to report a hire than non-sponsored jobs. Join the 3.3 million employers worldwide that use Indeed to connect with quality talent that fits their needs. Spend less time searching and more time actually interviewing candidates who check all your boxes. Less stress, less time, more results. When you need the right person to cut through the chaos, this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs. And listeners to the show will get a $75 sponsored job credit

• 46:12Kara Swisher?

  to help get your job the premium status it deserves at indeed.com/podcast. Just go to indeed.com/podcast right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. That's indeed.com/podcast. Terms and conditions apply. Need the right hire fast? Then this is the job for Indeed Sponsored Jobs.

• 46:38Speaker 03

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• 47:21Speaker 04

  I'm Josh Muccio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 47:32Speaker 05

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 47:38Speaker 04

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see.

• 47:47Speaker 06

  They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off.

• 47:53Speaker 04

  We've got deep tech to change the weather. Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand. What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else? Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.

• 48:19Kara Swisher?

  You've talked about how Netflix was supporting shows that have their own voice. Of course, they do it also difficult voices like Chappelle, which I do appreciate in a lot of ways. So do you think the current climate will change? What kind of shows get greenlit? You know, I was just, I was at this event last night and some of the people from SF Pride came up to me and they said, you know, all the corporate sponsors are pulling out right now because of the Trump administration. Are you seeing that at all? And, and after Trump was first elected, a lot of people in Hollywood did speak out, but we haven't seen as much this time around. There's a lot of jokes.

• 48:51Speaker 01

  I know.

• 48:51Kara Swisher?

  But I do think there's a definite pullback. And I was just reflecting like on this Atlantic story where they're really pushing the Trump administration on this Signal thing. Lorraine Powell Jobs is the only billionaire owner who is just not backing down, right? And of course, it's a woman. But, but it's like, do you see that happening? Are you afraid of it having an impact on your career?

• 49:13Speaker 01

  Um, I can't say that I see a difference because it's always been hard. It's just always been hard trying to get shit greenlit, period. But I really hope not. I really hope Netflix is like, no, we are international. We are behind, you know, every voice, you know, for better or for worse, whatever that means. And so I really hope not. And this is the beauty of stand up because it's like, no matter what, like, I always have the power to do what I want to do and say what I want to say. Now, you know, depending on like what platform like will have me, but I'm just like, I don't even want to speak it into existence because I'm scared. I'm really scared.

• 49:56Kara Swisher?

  Does that make for you to edit yourself?

• 49:59Speaker 01

  Absolutely not. I'm not working from a place of fear. Fuck that. No, if no, no. I've worked too hard on myself and in my, no, and it's too important. No, no. Edit yourself? No. No. Is so many people edit themselves? And they do what they think they should be doing? And then they beat themselves up when it doesn't go through. You know, when it doesn't get a second season or get greenlit, da, da, da, da. And it's just like, no, I need to sleep at night. And if I'm not doing what I know I need to do, what my intuition tells me I need to do, then I'm not going to sleep.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  So no, working from a place of fear is, don't do, if you're an artist, like, get over that shit real quick.

• 50:46Kara Swisher?

  So I want to finish up talking about your business. You've been building your career and brand for 20 years. You're an actress, producer, writer, stand-up comic, podcast host, TV host. You're on Barbecue Showdown, which I didn't know. It's a true multi hyphenate, and thank God you did that last one. At this part, how do you decide what to take now? Because I get that I do a lot of things myself, but what are you interested in? What's your criteria right now? When you're picking, because now you have choices, right? You know, you have choices.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's also like, how long am I going to be away from my family? Because I don't like that. So I'm like.

• 51:20Kara Swisher?

  Then you need to be in bed at 9:30.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  But also, like, how can I make the most money in the shortest amount of time? And feel inspired? I love connection. And so what I loved about Barbecue Showdown, it's like, you know, you see barbecue. But once you get in there with the pits, it's like, people are reclaiming their ancestors' stories through a recipe, you know? This guy that won Thirin' in season two? I've never met like, a black man from Appalachia. And the first time he had barbecue, his mom was so poor, she found a discarded refrigerator and learned how to smoke meat in it. What?

• 52:06Speaker 01

  You know, and everybody, and like, even this chick, Michelle, that was in season two, like, she started barbecuing because her father passed away. And it was her and her sisters, and every Sunday, he would barbecue. And they missed him, and they missed the Sunday barbecue. So she taught herself how to barbecue. And it's just all these stories. So anyways, all this to say, connection. Like, if I can be sassy and friendly and a little shady, then that's like, my sweet spot.

• 52:34Kara Swisher?

  You are now executive producer of your standups and TV show. How much creative control do you, as you were saying, you'll do what you want to do?

• 52:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:43Kara Swisher?

  How much do you get involved with everything else? Where do you, what don't you want to do and what do you want to do? I think about this all the time, what I want and don't want to do. And I think the most powerful moment in my career came when I walk away from stuff where I say, I don't want to do that. And I started being more successful when I got selfish. I use the word selfish in a different way, where I'm not going to do that. How do you think about your career?

• 53:06Speaker 01

  That's so funny.

• 53:06Kara Swisher?

  Especially as a woman and a woman of color, you know? Because you don't have as many choices, neither do I. It's sort of a continuum of choices that people get in life.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  That's so interesting. So I, there's nothing that I don't want to do when it comes to my shit. So being selfish for me is putting my foot in it and doing all of it. I want to be a part of all those conversations. I want to be a part of all those meetings. I want to see how people are talking about. Um, you know, black, brown and queer background, hair and makeup department. I want to be a part of all of it. And um, I think especially running two seasons of my own show, which is like so amazing. Right? I love being in the rooms because like, working with people, they always say, but they want, they want. It's just like, okay, we are the day.

• 54:01Speaker 01

  So start saying we. What do we want? What do we want to do? And so, um, you know, the thing I won't do for sure is try to make other people happy.

• 54:13Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:14Speaker 01

  Especially when people are saying, we want you to be happy. I'm like, do you? Then this would make me happy. If I can't do that, how do we like, you know, come to some sort of like happy medium? But and if people are just like, oh, I don't get it, or that's not funny. It's just like, oh, my God, okay. Then it's my job to figure out, you know, how to make it funny and for you to get. So I don't mind taking notes and going back to the drawing board because, you know, it's not personal. It's like, you know, it's a living organism is always going to like change and grow and all that stuff. But like for me, I want to be in it. I want to know, I want to know who you are and what you think. And I want to be a part of the process.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  So being selfish for me is like getting up in it because people are so different when you're not in the room. You know? And I'm like, what do y'all really think?

• 55:04Kara Swisher?

  Yeah, absolutely. Wouldn't it be great to be able to read people's minds just for, you know, an hour? And not long, because then you'd go crazy. But so my last question, you talk about manifesting the reality you want right now. That's what you're talking about. Is there a new role, new title you'd like to add? What interests you right now? It feels like you'd be a great late night host. So that might be not, that's not really the, the, the journey for people anymore because those ratings are going down, for example.

• 55:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:30Kara Swisher?

  So, so what are you finding interesting right now?

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Um, oh, my goodness, I just, I just sort of had this conversation with one of my really good friends last night.

• 55:40Kara Swisher?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  A title like late night or talk show host, like daytime talk show host or movie star. I feel like that shit's limiting. And, and by saying movie star, then I'm like giving my power over to like.

• 55:56Speaker 01

  Like a few hundred people that make movies. And it's just like, fuck that. You know, I can make a movie too. So I just feel like for me, the thing I want to do is be working, is to be an artist, to create, to executive produce my own shit, to give people a voice to tell their stories, to uplift people, to change their resume, to make sure that people who have not had access to things have them, get them in the room, give them confidence to believe that they can do it. And while I'm also, hello, making money too, let's go. You know, to really create some generational wealth so we can have some generational health, period. So there isn't one title, because the title is Michelle Buteau. Hello?

• 56:41Kara Swisher?

  I like that.

• 56:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:42Kara Swisher?

  The title is Michelle Buteau.

• 56:45Speaker 01

  That's the name of the episode.

• 56:47Kara Swisher?

  I'm gonna leave it at that.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Dope.

• 56:49Kara Swisher?

  Thank you so much.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Thank you. It was so nice meeting you.

• 56:53Kara Swisher?

  On With Kara Swisher is produced by Christian Castro-Russell, Kateri Yokum, Dave Shaw, Megan Burney, Megan Cunane, and Kaitlin Lynch. Nishat Kurwa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Special thanks to Kate Gallagher. Our engineers are Rick Kwan, Fernando Aruda, and Aaliyah Jackson. And our theme music is by Trackademics. If you're already following the show, you are not tap dancing for the patriarchy. If not, go check out Barbecue Showdown. Go wherever you listen to podcasts, search for On With Kara Swisher, and hit follow and make sure you're following On With Kara Swisher on Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky, and Threads. Not on X. Sorry, Elon. Thanks for listening to On With Kara Swisher from New York Magazine, the Vox Media Podcast Network, and us. We'll be back on Thursday with more.

• 57:40Speaker 02

  Support for the show comes from Engine. Running a small business means every dollar has to work hard. But if your team is still booking travel the old way, it's costing you more than you think. Engine is the fastest growing travel and spend platform in the country, built specifically for businesses like yours. Book a trip in as little as two and a half minutes, earn up to 10% back on hotels. And in 2025, Engine customers save more than $300 million on travel with zero booking fees, no contracts, and no BS. More than 1,000 businesses join Engine every month. Join them and get $500 when your business signs up and starts traveling at engine.com/vox.

• 58:25Speaker 03

  Support for the show comes from TikTok. There is a scientifically documented correlation between listening to podcasts and curiosity. So since you're here, you probably enjoy discovering new things. One great place to indulge your curiosity is TikTok. Whether it's how to forecast volcanic eruptions, strange phenomena that the James Webb Space Telescope picked up near the beginning of time, or a literal deep dive on the ocean's deepest reefs. TikTok has a wealth of fascinating videos just waiting to be discovered. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 59:08Speaker 04

  I'm Josh Mucio, host of The Pitch, where startup founders raise millions and listeners can invest. For our sweet season 16, we're giving you more of what you love and less of what you don't.

• 59:19Speaker 05

  I definitely start to blank out when we're talking about like middleware AI wrappers.

• 59:24Speaker 04

  Software is out. Actual cool stuff is in. We've got consumer brands. We're building Eight Sleep for daytime. Hardware that helps blind people see. They kept asking for middle finger. Next thing we knew, we had like 10 students running around flipping each other off. We've got deep tech to change the weather.

• 59:42Kara Swisher?

  Our big vision is to make it rain and snow on demand. What if you wanted to not make it rain somewhere else?

• 59:49Speaker 04

  Like one day, we're just like, screw Arizona.

• 59:53Speaker 04

  And dairy? I never imagined my life journey would be milk. Season 16 of The Pitch is out now. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. This season is presented by Engine.