#264 Hunter Biden - His Answer to the Laptop Claims, Burisma, White House Coke and Pardons

Hunter Biden is an American attorney, businessman, and author and the son of President Joe Biden. Born in Delaware and shaped by profound personal tragedies and a diverse career in finance, policy, and international ventures. His mother and sister passed away in a car accident when he was young, and his brother, who survived the accident, later passed at age 46 from brain cancer. Married to Melissa Cohen, with whom he has one child. He graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree in history from Georgetown University and earned a Juris Doctor degree from Yale Law School, before working briefly as a Jesuit volunteer in Portland, Oregon, and transitioning into banking and politics. Biden built his early career at MBNA America, then served at the United States Department of Commerce, focusing on e-commerce policy during the Clinton administration. In 2001, he co-founded the lobbying firm Oldaker, Biden & Belair, which worked on issues including online gambling. He served as a board member of Amtrak and is a founding partner of Rosemont Seneca Partners, an investment and advisory firm. He previously was on the board of BHR Partners, a China-based private equity firm, and from 2014 to 2019, he served on the board of Burisma Holdings, a Ukrainian energy company owned by Mykola Zlochevsky, amid political investigations. In 2013, Biden joined the U. S. Navy Reserve as an ensign, but was discharged in 2014. Biden has publicly admitted to struggles with addiction, detailed in his 2021 memoir Beautiful Things, and has been sober since 2019. He faced public controversies, including the 2018 laptop scandal, and was under federal criminal investigation for tax matters and firearm possession. In 2024, he pleaded guilty to failing to pay $1.4 million in taxes from 2016 to 2019 on foreign income, which he spent on drugs and luxuries. In April 2025, President Joe Biden issued a pardon clearing Hunter of his federal gun and tax convictions. Biden continues to advocate for awareness of addiction through his personal story of recovery and resilience. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://polymarket.com Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to https://RocketMoney.com/SRS today. Go to https://armra.com/SRS or enter SRS to get 30% off your first subscription order. Ready to upgrade your eyewear? Check them out at https://roka.com and use code SRS for 20% off sitewide. Hunter Biden Links: Book - https://www.amazon.com/Beautiful-Things-Memoir-Hunter-Biden/dp/1982151110/ref=sr_1_2 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  On October 2nd.

• 0:04Speaker 00

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 0:09Speaker 01

  Tom Cruise is.

• 0:10Speaker 02

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 0:14Speaker 01

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 0:16Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped doing it? You stall, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 0:24Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not admitted without parent.

• 0:31Speaker 04

  This episode is brought to you by Tic Tac. Lace up and get your game on because the Tic Tac lineup just got a new teammate. Dr. Pepper Tic Tac. This new double threat puts two of your favorite flavors into one box of mints. And when two iconic flavors come together, the result can only be iconic. Score big. Try Dr. Pepper Tic Tac today.

• 0:59Shawn Ryan?

  Hunter Biden. Welcome to the show, man.

• 1:02Speaker 06

  Thanks, man. Big fan.

• 1:05Shawn Ryan?

  I can't believe you're a fan.

• 1:06Speaker 06

  Why?

• 1:07Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. It's just, it's just. I just never, it just, it's wild to me that you're a fan. Yeah, man. I'm finding, so I mean, I pretty much interviewed almost everybody that's on the Trump ad been now.

• 1:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:23Shawn Ryan?

  And that kind of, I think people may, I don't know, people got maybe the wrong impression of me that I agree with everything that that side of the aisle says, and I don't. But, but, you know, we did.

• 1:35Speaker 06

  I'm gonna get you in trouble. I got the, I got the exact opposite. Impression.

• 1:40Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. But, but, yeah, I don't know. There's just some, you know who else? Elizabeth Warren's team listens to my show a lot. That really, really surprised me.

• 1:50Speaker 06

  Okay, so here, here's why. Is that you're a great listener. And I think that the, uh, the authentic way in which you listen and respond leads me to believe that, um, that you're just open. Like you're open to information and you're not judging it as it's coming over the transom unless it's just fucking outrageous. You know, um, or somebody's being, uh...

• 2:23Speaker 06

  hateful or or lying or insincere. And you know, I say to those guys out there, I watch you do the um, I've watched everything, not everything, but I've watched.

• 2:35Shawn Ryan?

  A lot of it.

• 2:36Speaker 06

  They do, I you know, I I listen to you while I paint and um, and uh, the the thing that always comes across to me with you is that fundamentally you have like a core set of beliefs, of values. And um, and they're the same values I have. I mean, and maybe that's a shock or a surprise, but you know, I was saying to you guys out there, like, we all think that, you know, if you're Republican or Democrat, you know, that we got nothing in common.

• 3:19Speaker 06

  But I will tell you what, I was raised, what my my what what I what I try to, you know, I mean, obviously, I I try and I failed in many in many respects. And uh, and and and failed in in my addiction and um, and sometimes fail in my sobriety in being the man that I I I aspire to be. But I care about my family. I care about my friends. I care about my community. I care about my country. And I care about my faith.

• 3:58Speaker 06

  And I'm, you know, maybe being presumptuous, I think that's what you care about. And I don't mean that as like some saccharine bullshit, but our prescription of how to make all those things better may be different. You know? And those are the things that we used to argue about.

• 4:20Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:21Speaker 06

  You know, my, you know, I'd grown up, you know, the majority of my friends were all Republicans, you know, you know, I I aspired, you know, uh, I mean, my heroes was the guy you guys, you know, um, the people that served, like my brother, like you, like, um, you know? And uh, and so, anyway, my point is, I don't think uh,

• 4:52Speaker 06

  Um, I don't know why you'd be shocked, other than by the, the impression that's been left about me. Um, I don't know.

• 5:01Shawn Ryan?

  I think I'm shocked because I'm dealing with this shit, man. You grew up in this, in politics, you know, and, and, um.

• 5:09Speaker 06

  I didn't grow up in this, though.

• 5:10Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, you're, that's true. I mean, I guess what I'm getting at is, it's just, man, it's so fucking politicized now. And so you think that, I mean, you think that the Republican Democrat, which I don't even fucking know what it means to be a Republican anymore, to be honest with you. Everything's just so far off base now that I don't, I don't, I don't even know. I have, I have conservative values, and that's all I can say anymore, you know? But, um, it's just become so divisive that this, it appears that the decision has already been made for you to most people on who you can associate with, who you can watch, who you can take information from, and who you can't.

• 5:54Shawn Ryan?

  And while I don't, I don't, and will never again fall into those fucking lines. Um, I think a lot of people, you know, I think a lot of people can't, they can't see past it, and some things have happened to me, too. You know, since I've been in this game of fucking podcasting and started diving into politics and, you know, what I've realized is that, um, you know, whatever the mainstream media determines the narrative is going to be about you, that's what it's going to be, whether it has.

• 6:26Speaker 06

  Tell me about it, brother.

• 6:28Shawn Ryan?

  Exactly, right? But I mean, you know, I am not a MAGA cultist. I don't agree with everything that, that, that comes out of that, whatever, uh, political movement. In fact, as time moves on, I've agreed with less, less, and less, and less of it. But, you know, but if you look at the mainstream media, the first thing they put in front of my fucking name every single fucking time is mega influencer, mega podcaster, mega, mega podcast, mega, mega podcaster, Sean Ryan. It's like, where are you coming from? Where are you going to come up with this shit? But, but so anyways.

• 7:03Speaker 06

  Well, maybe I missed some interviews.

• 7:05Shawn Ryan?

  That's, that's why.

• 7:06Speaker 06

  I'm stuck in nerves.

• 7:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't think you've missed much.

• 7:09Speaker 06

  No, I haven't. I've watched you.

• 7:10Shawn Ryan?

  Where my heart on my sleeve.

• 7:11Speaker 06

  I have like, I have, I have, uh, you know, I serious disagreements with, you know, with people that have been really, really, I think objectively like cruel to me. Like Tucker's been objectively cruel to me. And I know that you're friends with Tucker.

• 7:23Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 7:24Speaker 06

  I used to be, uh, I used to know Tucker. I wasn't friends with Tucker. Um, uh, but you know, I think that we're all, uh, we, look, we should all have a common enemy. And the truth of the matter is, it's not any politician or federal government worker.

• 7:44Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 7:45Speaker 06

  You know, who, who's benefiting right now?

• 7:50Speaker 06

  Who? You know, whether the Democrats are in control of Congress or whether the Republicans are, who ultimately seems to be benefiting?

• 7:59Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I can tell you who's not benefiting.

• 8:01Speaker 06

  Not normal people.

• 8:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 8:03Speaker 06

  Not regular guys, not the guys you served with, not the guys that I went to high school with, not the, you know, nobody that I know, um, you know, the people that are benefiting, the people that seem to always some way avoid the consequences and, uh, and, and win.

• 8:24Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 8:24Speaker 06

  And that's, you know, the point one percent.

• 8:29Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 8:29Speaker 06

  And it's not even the one percent anymore. I mean, it's like literally the, you know, and I'm not saying, you know, all billionaires are evil. I'm not saying that. I promise you. Um, but I am saying, uh, that from, from my vantage point.

• 8:48Speaker 06

  We are all the victims of the algorithms that they have caged us in. Every one of us.

• 8:56Speaker 06

  And we are, uh, are, why are we all so mad at each other? I can't, I don't understand this. Politics never used to be like this. It didn't be like, I'll tell you why. Where's my, the phone, like, pick up your phone, man. And then people are incentivized. People that we used to trust are incredibly incentivized in a very perverse way to make me hate you. To label you, Sean. Uh, you're, you're a vet, special ops. You have a, um, inside view of that. You have conservative values. And so therefore, you know, at one point or another, you supported, um, you know, some of the things that Donald Trump was saying. And, you know, and the people that surrounded him.

• 9:40Speaker 06

  And so therefore, you know what you are? You're my fucking enemy. You're my enemy. I shouldn't be sitting here. Yeah. You know what I mean? You're, I, I, the one thing I've come to the conclusion of, because my own experience is to, oh, such a bunch of bullshit. Such a bunch of bullshit. I wish people would just wake up. I know, man. Wake up, man. Remember your neighbor. Remember your neighbor, who by the way, may have voted for Donald Trump, but didn't vote for this. Didn't vote for this. Now I could have told him. That's maybe, do you know what I mean?

• 10:21Speaker 06

  But I am, uh, I'm so, I saw one of your shows, uh, where you talked about, um, like, some days it feels like we're really on the verge of real violence. Not this, uh, what do they call it? Stochastic violence? Not, not these kind of, the, the seemingly endless violence that we witness as relates to what just happened to Rob Reiner, to his son, or what happened to Charlie Kirk, or what happened to the, uh, the students at Brown University, or what happened to the, the, um, people celebrating Hanukkah on Bondi Beach. You know, and by the way, that was all what? Except for Charlie Kirk, within the past day.

• 11:07Speaker 06

  Day, but beyond that violence, I saw you talking to somebody about it like, are we gonna be, are we gonna be picking up guns?

• 11:15Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I think what you're referring to is, you know, you see all this talk about revolution, you know, civil war, all this type of shit. And I mean, if you think, if you think about, you know, how would you, how would you destroy the United States of America? I mean, I don't think that you destroy it by, by kinetic war. I don't think you nuke it. I don't think you send in troops. I don't think you, you know, do a naval battle. You divide them because, I mean, there are more guns in this country. And I'm a gun owner and I'm a fucking pro two way guy. Don't ever try to take my damn guns.

• 11:58Shawn Ryan?

  But, you know, but, I mean, there are so many here that if, if, if there was an adversary that was successful in, in dividing us, so much so that it actually ended up in kinetic war. Nobody could come in, you, you can't even send a country to come in here to aid. Because there are so, I mean, there are so many fucking guns. And I spent 14 years in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, all over the Middle East. They don't have half the damn guns that we have in this country. That place is, I mean, there are places there that you just, I mean, you're fucking dead if you go outside. And maybe you're dead if you don't go outside.

• 12:39Shawn Ryan?

  And this here would be way worse, way worse than that. If, when, when the desperation sets in, people start getting hungry, cold. They need warm clothes, they need food, they need water, they need medication, like when the system fucking breaks down. This will be the most dangerous place in the entire world.

• 13:02Speaker 06

  I 100% agree. I 100% agree. And so, you know, that's why I asked the question. Who's benefiting?

• 13:14Speaker 06

  And one thing I know that who's benefiting from what's happening in our country right now is the immediate answer to that is our adversaries, our most obvious adversaries. Russians, Chinese, and a cadre of other actors that I think sometimes pretend that they're our allies, but would just as well see us burn. And then, who else is benefiting? The only people that are doing better and have consistently amassed wealth to a degree

• 13:51Speaker 06

  that has never been seen before in human history are the oligarch class, the Elon Musks and the Peter Teals and, you know, and a whole host of other people. And I'm not just picking them out, you know, and Jeff Bezos and, you know. And so there's a very, very, very finite, infinitesimal in terms of number of people that are benefiting to a degree that we've never witnessed before, except one other time,

• 14:30Speaker 06

  which was in the turn of the century in like the 1900s, early 1900s, late 1800s. And with, you know, the Gilded Age and, you know, J.D. Rockefeller and the Standard Oil and that period of time. And I think to myself, well, what's the solution right now? What do I, you know, I think first thing is, is the realization that, you know, there's no...

• 15:11Speaker 06

  There's no savior coming.

• 15:15Speaker 06

  There's no

• 15:20Speaker 06

  Christ character of some political bent that is gonna come and, you know, fix everything. And gonna allow people to begin to talk to each other across the fence and, you know, across the dinner table in any, you know, near future we have.

• 15:46Speaker 06

  But if the if the problem can't be solved

• 15:52Speaker 06

  politically,

• 15:54Speaker 06

  then how's it gonna be solved?

• 15:57Speaker 06

  Because it ain't getting any better. And if you have, if these people that I, that I watch on your shows and, and, you know, I'm a orange hair expert like everybody else on AI. But if you just listen to the people that are actually building these things, you know, what is it? They think that there's a 20 to 30% chance that, you know, superintelligence could cause a mass extinction event. And they think that, you know, we're gonna reach AGI in the next three years. And that AGI basically means that we're gonna have anywhere from, you know, 70 to 90% unemployment. And, you know, and so

• 16:40Speaker 06

  at a time in which we're, as a human race, making an evolutionary step that is never, that supersedes every other evolutionary step that's ever occurred before. What is the most important thing that we could have? Leadership.

• 17:00Speaker 06

  And what do we have? We have utter and complete chaos right now. And at least from my perspective. And I don't, you know, like, so I think, well, what can we do? Well, I listen to you. I listen to you talk to people that I don't disagree, that I don't necessarily, in any obvious way, agree with. Some, by the way, who have been, been really cruel to me personally.

• 17:30Speaker 06

  But I listen and try to figure out.

• 17:36Speaker 06

  Is there any way that we can see eye to eye? Because we all need to wake up, man.

• 17:45Speaker 06

  Because

• 17:48Speaker 06

  what's the alternative?

• 17:52Speaker 06

  What's the alternative other than

• 17:54Shawn Ryan?

  What we just talked about?

• 17:55Speaker 06

  The still big vision that you just talked about?

• 17:56Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I think the unfortunate thing, Hunter, is a lot of people are hoping for that to happen. But they've never lived in that. So they don't know really what that's gonna be like. And I don't even know what the fuck that's gonna be.

• 18:09Speaker 06

  There's a lot of tough guys out there.

• 18:10Shawn Ryan?

  But uh.

• 18:11Speaker 06

  A lot of tough guys that that think that they, you know, uh, you know, that think that they, because they own uh, some of the guns that you've shot in places where they will never have been.

• 18:21Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 18:22Speaker 06

  Including myself, like, you know, um.

• 18:27Speaker 06

  Let me give you an example, and I know that we're not like, uh, the one thing I promised myself that I wouldn't do is like, I think people are so sick, like, who gives a shit what Hunter Biden thinks about politics right now? And, and, um, but I can tell you just from my, I can only talk about it from my personal experience.

• 18:47Speaker 06

  And being witness to it at, in a, in a very intimate way. And being a victim of it in some ways, and uh, not a victim of it, that's a, that's a pretty lame way to say it, um.

• 19:00Speaker 06

  Being uh, uh, trapped by it, caged by it in many ways, not by any choice of my own.

• 19:11Speaker 06

  The president just put out that tweet, okay, or whatever they call it, about Robert Reiner.

• 19:17Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:18Speaker 06

  Okay?

• 19:21Speaker 06

  And somebody trying to break down the.

• 19:28Speaker 06

  I don't know what the fuck that was. They're storming the gates, they know I'm in here.

• 19:35Speaker 06

  They're gonna rip you off air. Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 06

  Anyway.

• 19:43Speaker 06

  President put out that True Social thing. And everybody's like, God, it's just, it's just hard to taste and beneath the president, you know, he basically, basically blaming Rob Reiner's murder and his wife Michelle's murder on the fact that he is a Trump derangement syndrome.

• 20:08Speaker 06

  Everybody says, you know, it's just like, has he lost his mind? Has he have, you know, dementia and this and that? And, you know, he's... And I don't think he knows exactly what he's doing. What he's doing is this, what he's always done,

• 20:24Speaker 06

  is he's giving people permission structure. Rob Reiner died violently

• 20:32Speaker 06

  because he opposed me.

• 20:37Speaker 06

  And I wish his family well, rest in peace. That's what he's saying.

• 20:44Speaker 06

  And in so doing, I think what he's basically saying is, you know what? Like, stand in my way, and this is what happens. And so 90% of people, I really believe 90% of people, even his supporters, 90% of his supporters goes like, oh, why did you say that? That's so cruel. 10%? What they hear is

• 21:15Speaker 06

  he got what he deserved.

• 21:19Speaker 06

  And I see him do that over and over again. And it really worries me. And by the way, I'm not saying that there aren't people on the, on the left that do the same goddamn thing. And it is, you know, it's, it, it turns my stomach then.

• 21:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, it really is.

• 21:35Speaker 06

  Difference is, is the president. President has a responsibility. I think the most important responsibility of a president is not the, you know, other than, uh, you know, the question of, uh, you know,

• 21:48Speaker 06

  the deployment of force is the tone that he sets for the country. More than any law, more than anything. It's just the tone that he sets.

• 21:56Shawn Ryan?

  I'm with you. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it does though, comes from, you know, it's not just him. It, it, it, you know, I mean, with the, with the Charlie Kirk stuff and with the, you know, other assassination attempt on him and Butler, which actually they shut down the investigation on that for whatever reason. I don't know why you wouldn't want to know who tried to fucking kill you, but whatever, right? Nothing to see here. But, you know, I mean, when you, when you have, you know, when you have a political party that's continuously saying you're a Nazi, you know, a fascist, Nazi, fascist, Nazi, he's like Hitler, you know what I mean? And then you got assassination attempts all over the fucking country.

• 22:39Shawn Ryan?

  And it's just, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh.

• 22:43Speaker 06

  I know, but Sean, I'm not, look, I don't want to get into like the argument over the, and I don't really mean it, but like, I hear you. I hear what you're saying, but part of me also says, you don't want to be called a fascist, don't act like a fascist. And I'm, what I mean by fascism is this, is deputizing a, a largest federal police force in history to go on America's streets masked without warrants and drag pregnant women out of their cars in the snow and kneel on their backs.

• 23:22Speaker 06

  Of sending people to prisons, death camps in El Salvador with no due process. I promise you.

• 23:36Speaker 06

  That I believe this with all my heart is that you and I don't have any, any distance between us and what we think about immigrants and immigration. How many, how many immigrants do you serve with?

• 23:50Shawn Ryan?

  How many what?

• 23:50Speaker 06

  Immigrants did you serve with?

• 23:52Shawn Ryan?

  Quite a few.

• 23:53Speaker 06

  Quite a few. Amazing people, right? How about in your personal life? How many people around here or that are in this community that you're in? Or when you were growing up? That are from immigrants. By the way, some, by the way, that may have bent the rules to be able to get in here and they shouldn't have. And they should probably leave if they did.

• 24:17Speaker 06

  But I don't think that we have any disagreement that one of the things that makes this country an incredible country is immigration.

• 24:26Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 24:26Speaker 06

  Thirty percent of every new business in the United States annually is started by an immigrant.

• 24:33Speaker 06

  Thirty-five percent of the Fortune 100 CEOs in the United States of America, top 100 companies in America are immigrants.

• 24:41Shawn Ryan?

  I did not know that.

• 24:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:43Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I don't think, I guess I shouldn't, I can't even fucking say I don't think anybody. For myself, you know, with the immigration thing, I think, I think for me, for me, the issue with the immigration stuff is, is how it's prioritized. So I'll give you an example. I, I know we need immigrants. I mean, we built, I mean,

• 25:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 25:04Shawn Ryan?

  we're building a studio, Ice Roller Town. We couldn't get anybody to fucking work to finish building this out. And this is only, this is about three months old, but point being, I mean, we have to have them, you know, they, we have to have them. They, they, they are the, I mean, they just, they are the worker base now. It just is what the fuck is.

• 25:27Speaker 06

  Also the engine to our economy.

• 25:28Shawn Ryan?

  But what I, what I will say is when it comes to the prioritization, the stuff that I'm talking about, I mean, I think what, for me specifically, I got no problem with immigration. And I think what's going on right now is also a fucking disaster. I think, you know, I think that before we, before we go in and, and deport every single person that's come here, I, I, I think we need to fix the actual, the system. The system on how you get in. It's fucked up. People can't get in. Good people can't get in. You know what I mean? But what, what's, what's happened? From my, from my perspective, what I see is, you know, you, look, Hunter, we got all these guys

• 26:12Shawn Ryan?

  coming home and women, you know, from, from Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, twenty fucking plus years of war, right? Most of these people can't even get help in the VA. Can't even fucking get that. You know what I mean? Everybody knows there's a veteran suicide epidemic, it's twenty-two a day, it's been going on for more than a decade.

• 26:35Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 26:36Shawn Ryan?

  You know, we have a major suicide epidemic going on with veterans, we have a major addiction problem going on with veterans, PTSD, traumatic brain injury, I mean, you name it. Our people that spent twenty-plus fucking years protecting this country can't get the help they need. But if you flip on the news, all you see is free hotels for immigrants in New York.

• 27:03Speaker 06

  But Sean.

• 27:04Shawn Ryan?

  Free healthcare.

• 27:04Speaker 06

  Sean, I got, I, I don't disagree with you.

• 27:07Shawn Ryan?

  It's like, fuck, man, like, we, we, that's a real pain fighting for this fucking country.

• 27:12Speaker 06

  I got it, I got it. If that's, if, if, if, if that's the dichotomy that you're presented with, okay? But again, I'll say this, you know what? That's your algorithm, man. Okay? Because here's the deal, is it, no one that I know of, okay? Uh, that would say that they're a Democrat, I don't even know if I'm a Democrat anymore. I don't know if I'm a part of any political, because it's just like, you know, pox on all your houses, in, in my opinion. But not that you shouldn't engage in the political process, it's like, I'm just talking about the parties, I think it's like imperative that we don't give up on politics as a solution. We gotta, because what's the alternative?

• 27:57Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 27:58Speaker 06

  I mean, truly, if, if the politics and process aren't a solution to our problems, that the only solution to is who, who, who wins? It's a zero-sum game, who wins? Guns.

• 28:13Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:13Speaker 06

  And that violence that you talked about. But if you think that...

• 28:23Speaker 06

  And again, I don't want to make all this about political about, you know, I know that the people that you brought through here really, really care about the issues that you just talked about. I care about them. I know my dad did. I know 100% he did about veterans, about what's happening at the VA, about the addiction problem, about the suicide rate among veterans. I'm absolutely certain that he did. And so that's, you know, that's why he did the PAC Act. That's why he did a whole host of other things as it relates to veterans. But I'm not gonna, like, see, I don't want to get into my dad's policy prescriptions because then everybody just, like, turns off.

• 29:03Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Speaker 06

  But I can say this, is this, is that nobody right now is in any way making even remotely a credible argument that if we, you know, if we stop giving immigrants free hotel rooms, then we'd be able to prioritize veterans instead. Like, what a bunch of bullshit. Like, of course that's what you prioritize.

• 29:34Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 29:35Speaker 06

  Of course that's what you do. And not only that, is this, is that, okay, let's agree with this. It's a, the system is fucking broken, completely broken. So let's get together and do bipartisan legislation as it relates to it. And let's get the most conservative senator in the United States, one of the most conservative senators in the United States Senate to come up with a plan that his caucus will accept and that he can sell to the Democrats. And let's create a piece of legislation that a president, sitting president, will sign into law that'll at least begin to address some of these problems, some of the inequities on both sides that are occurring. And what do we do? James Inhofe did that.

• 30:18Speaker 06

  Republican Party in the United States Senate did that. They got an agreement with the Republicans in Congress and the House side that they would, that they would vote for the legislation. And then Donald Trump stepped in, six months before the election, and told them that he was gonna primary every single one of them that voted for that. Because we're addicted to the problem.

• 30:42Speaker 06

  And the people, when you say you turn on the TV, and what you see is a sea of disinformation, some of it real, about the bullshit, you know, overabundance of, you know, of resources that immigrants are taking out of the United States. And what do I see when I turn on my TV or open up my phone? I see the exact opposite.

• 31:19Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 31:20Speaker 06

  And so, we're both addicted to the problem. And nobody's talking about the solution. And there's not somebody in politics right now that I, that is, you know? I think there are some people, but I, I don't think that we should expect somebody to come in and save us.

• 31:39Shawn Ryan?

  I don't either. If I'll be honest with you, I fucking have given up. Like, I just, I...

• 31:46Speaker 06

  But here's my problem. My problem is, and I guess this goes to the, the reason why I, why when you said you're surprised that I listen, I, I'm, I'm surprised that, uh, I'm not surprised. I understand where you're coming from on that. Is this, is don't you think I wanna?

• 32:03Shawn Ryan?

  Sorry?

• 32:04Speaker 06

  I said, don't you think I wanna figure out a solution to the immigration issue?

• 32:07Shawn Ryan?

  I think a lot of people do.

• 32:08Speaker 06

  Hey, let me ask you a question. Don't you think Gavin Newsom wants to figure out? Now, he, he, I, I assume that anybody that's running for president, if they could fix the immigration issue, would try to fix the immigration issue. Right? Because we need immigration. We need a vibrant immigration. But we don't want immigrants that are coming here illegally, draining us of resources, and also, um, uh, and, and, and being prioritized above people that are actual literal heroes that are coming home, or that are, that, uh, that are still recovering from, uh, twenty-one, twenty years of, of endless war.

• 32:52Speaker 06

  Or anybody else in our society. Right?

• 32:57Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:58Speaker 06

  But nobody's, everybody's talking past each other.

• 33:04Shawn Ryan?

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• 33:46Shawn Ryan?

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• 34:29Shawn Ryan?

  Go to rocketmoney.com/srs today. That's rocketmoney.com/srs. Rocketmoney.com/srs.

• 34:41Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, you know, when you talk about, "Nobody's coming to save us", I mean, there is no Christ-like figure coming, but then you also say, "We can't totally abandon politics as a way to fix the problem." I think that's what you said.

• 34:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know. And it's, I mean, I realized the...

• 35:05Speaker 06

  That it is a oxymoronic, I guess, right? So it that but I'm I'm I'm trying to figure it out. And the only thing that I can think of is conversations like this. And not that I'm some that

• 35:21Speaker 06

  in in any way important. But I really, really think that some people that have skin in the game, whether by any virtue of of what they're doing in terms of their professional life or their political aspirations or that have been thrust into it, whether they chose to or not, me have an obligation to say, I find that there are more that I have more in common. I'm positive that I have more in common with Sean Ryan, who's considered by whoever incorrectly as a MAGA influencer than I do than I than I don't have in common with them.

• 36:01Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I appreciate that. Thank you. I think that

• 36:04Speaker 06

  I I think I just fucked you over.

• 36:08Speaker 06

  I think there's a chance upon on the edit that you're gonna want to take that part out. But um, no, but I'm I'm being serious. Is it?

• 36:18Shawn Ryan?

  I think we all have a lot more in common with each other than than than we don't. And and so I'm I'm 100% with you on that. And but, you know, you got to have a conversation to find out the answer. And people aren't doing that. So

• 36:35Shawn Ryan?

  but

• 36:37Shawn Ryan?

  well, Hunter, I want to do a a life expose on you and starting from birth all the way to now. And obviously, there'll be some tough questions. But I think I think we will hit every array of emotions out there. I think we'll get some laughs, some sadness, some happiness, some anger. And I think it's gonna make a great interview. So once again, I just I just want to say thank you for coming. I've I've really been looking forward to this, so. But but in other news.

• 37:13Shawn Ryan?

  If you see my beef with Dan Crenshaw, he's gonna sue me, Hunter.

• 37:16Speaker 06

  I know.

• 37:17Shawn Ryan?

  He's gonna sue me.

• 37:18Speaker 06

  I'm sorry, buddy.

• 37:19Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, so. So you're a Yale educated attorney?

• 37:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 37:24Shawn Ryan?

  Can you give us a, can you give us a legal analysis, breakdown of the Dan Crenshaw lawsuit against Sean Ryan?

• 37:31Speaker 06

  Well, technically, I've been disbarred, so I have to say that.

• 37:35Shawn Ryan?

  I saw that.

• 37:35Speaker 06

  I, I have to say that. It's very technically, I mean, I've been disbarred, so, um, uh, uh. Look, to be serious about it, is it, um, like, like, what are you even talking about? Like, I followed this and, and it's the same, I don't know whether that these people that are, um, uh, become so high on their own supply, um, uh, think, and the people that, um, uh, like are, like the, the sucker fishes that attach to them, like these lawyers, think that in any way,

• 38:18Speaker 06

  they're sending you a bullshit letter, demand letter, was gonna do anything but make you say, "Fucking try me."

• 38:30Speaker 06

  What the hell, man? I mean, look, I, I, I, there's a, there's a bunch of things that you could do. Like, number one, it seems to me that you, you, you potentially could sue him right now.

• 38:44Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 38:45Speaker 06

  Yes. And, and that's, for instance, that's what Michael Wolff did with, uh, the first lady. Is that she continued to threaten him and continued to threaten him like they threatened me. And my response to that was, "Bring it on." Like, you wanna, you wanna go through a discovery process with me in which I get to depose you, the president, and every person that you were associated with while you were friends with Jeffrey Epstein? Like, you wanna do that, then I'm, I'm willing, I'm willing to do that. I'm gonna need a GoFundMe to, but you know what I mean, but I'm willing to do that. Um, and I never heard from them again. Okay? And I didn't say anything that Michael Wolff didn't, but they continued to send Michael Wolff, uh, letters.

• 39:27Speaker 06

  And whatever you think about Michael Wolff, is that Michael Wolff, um, basically said, um, uh, is that...

• 39:35Speaker 06

  Threatening someone with a lawsuit that is engaged in protected speech, particularly when who you're speaking about is a sitting United States Congressman, which basically you can say whatever the fuck you want about him, no matter what. That's that's America. You know what I mean? Seriously, is that it's called abusive process and and potentially tortious interference, meaning that he's interfering, he's attempting to interfere with your business. So, but if you if you if you want to engage him, you could potentially, and I'm not positive, but preemptive, you know, preemptively sue him for fucking with you.

• 40:19Speaker 06

  And and and and it seems to me that I I saw his response, and I don't know Dan Crenshaw from anything. I think Dan had a bad night. Oh, he really had a bad night, and I don't get it. Like, what like if you're gonna if you're gonna respond after you made a threat of a lawsuit, then you file the lawsuit if you truly believe that you want to go through the process of sitting down for a, you know, however many day deposition and going through every stock trade that you've made since you became a United States Congressman. And the information that you may have received or not received as related to the companies whose stock you're trading, along with what you said to every member of SEAL Team Six

• 41:03Speaker 06

  and what they said back to you when you said, I've been talking to, you know, my boys at six. It's like, I'll tell you what, I I don't see how any reasonable person that would receive a text like that would not think like, like, are you threatening me? Mm hmm. And I don't know anybody that reasonable, and I certainly know that there's not a jury in the world that wouldn't wouldn't believe that. So the notion that that is unreasonable for you to come to that conclusion, or thought that maybe that's what he was trying to say? And Anyway, it's just a, um, uh, number, you, you, number one, you got nothing to worry about, but it may be an opportunity for you also.

• 41:46Shawn Ryan?

  That's good to hear.

• 41:47Speaker 06

  It's kind of, kind of the way that I view these things.

• 41:50Shawn Ryan?

  I, I don't really enjoy legal warfare, but I gotta be honest, this one, you know, it's like, oh.

• 41:56Speaker 06

  No, it's horrible.

• 41:57Shawn Ryan?

  Let's do the discovery, Dan. I would, I would love to dive into your financial history as a congressman.

• 42:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:05Shawn Ryan?

  You know what I think happened?

• 42:06Speaker 06

  By the way, and it's much broader than that.

• 42:09Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 42:10Speaker 06

  I had a guy that-

• 42:12Shawn Ryan?

  He's also like actively threatening to kill people online.

• 42:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:16Shawn Ryan?

  Like he threatened to kill, or he's like, if I ever see Tucker, I'll kill him.

• 42:20Speaker 06

  I saw that.

• 42:20Shawn Ryan?

  And then he said,

• 42:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 42:21Shawn Ryan?

  "I'm not joking."

• 42:23Speaker 06

  No, I know.

• 42:24Shawn Ryan?

  So why wouldn't I take, but, uh-

• 42:27Speaker 06

  I don't know. See, that's the thing that I don't get is, um, uh, anyway, you know, the broader picture is this license that people think that they have, particularly in Congress, to be, to hide behind the speech and debate clause. Now, the fact of the matter is, is if he had been smart, he should have gone to the floor of the House, you, the, the, the, uh, House of Representatives, and he could have talked about you as much as he wanted to. Um, uh, but the idea that he would send you a private DM with the, you know, with, with that kind of like oblique or direct threat, who knows?

• 43:01Shawn Ryan?

  His boys at sex.

• 43:02Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, like, I don't have any, um, uh, I don't have any insight into your world,

• 43:13Speaker 06

  other than having watched you, having watched the, the, uh, the men, uh, you know, I just watched that interview with Jaco and, um, and a, a number of others that you have, um, interviewed, and many of which are, you know, are right to the till of the hunt, but you don't come, I come away with the impression of this, is the one thing that they care about more than anything is, uh, is, are, are there the, the bond that they have with each, that you guys have with each other? And like a code of loyalty that, that means. And I can't imagine anyone would have been, um, too impressed with somebody saying that.

• 44:01Speaker 06

  Publicly or privately, so that the number and not just go like, well, that is really weak sauce, man. And I maybe I'm maybe I'm way reading way too much into anything.

• 44:12Shawn Ryan?

  I think I think. Are you familiar with Polly Market?

• 44:16Speaker 06

  Only from listening.

• 44:18Shawn Ryan?

  It's like a predictive.

• 44:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, I mean, I literally from listening to some.

• 44:21Shawn Ryan?

  Prediction, prediction market.

• 44:23Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 44:23Shawn Ryan?

  They they only give, they actually did a thing on this. They only give Dan a nine percent chance that he actually sues me. So I think, I mean, we're both, we're both, we both battled addiction, right? I've spent many a nights where I've made shitty decisions and woken up the next morning going, oh, fuck.

• 44:44Speaker 06

  By the way.

• 44:44Shawn Ryan?

  I think Dan did that two nights in a row.

• 44:46Speaker 06

  Yeah, I, by the way, I really do too.

• 44:49Shawn Ryan?

  You know?

• 44:50Speaker 06

  You know, and so in that sense, I I have a, I have a little bit of a, like, maybe somebody in his life.

• 44:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 06

  You know?

• 45:01Shawn Ryan?

  I feel bad for him too. I hope Dan can put the bottle down. I mean, he can't even do international travel right now because he's such a fucking lush.

• 45:08Speaker 06

  Is that true?

• 45:09Shawn Ryan?

  It's really bad. It's really bad.

• 45:12Speaker 06

  No.

• 45:12Shawn Ryan?

  He's not allowed. He's not allowed to travel.

• 45:15Speaker 06

  Demolition suits I'm involved in right now. You're sucking me into another one. I can't afford it, man.

• 45:22Shawn Ryan?

  No, it's it's it's a real thing.

• 45:24Speaker 06

  It's a real thing. Okay.

• 45:25Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe you'll get a letter too. We'll all see each other in court.

• 45:29Speaker 06

  Exactly. I sue a guy. Okay, you know, Patrick Byrne, the Overstock guy.

• 45:33Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 45:34Speaker 06

  Okay, he, um, he wrote this thing and said that, um, I was the person responsible for releasing the eight billion dollars in sanctioned Iranian money that was being held by the South Koreans, and I took a 10% fee for doing so and put it in, um, uh, you know, bank accounts around the world, and that was the money that was used to fund Hamas's attack on Israel on October 7th.

• 46:01Shawn Ryan?

  Holy shit.

• 46:02Speaker 06

  Resulting in the death of 1,400 people. You know how many things people have said about me? That are like, I mean, on your show, by the way.

• 46:10Shawn Ryan?

  I'm aware.

• 46:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know you are, motherfucker. Yeah, I know. Um, and, and so he says this craziness, okay? And I'm like, I said to one of my lawyers, I was like, just, just please, can we like, can someone help me sue this guy? And anyway, I found somebody to do it, and, uh, continuously, incredible lawyer, Dick Harpootlian. And we went to, and he said, I'm gonna get him and I'm gonna go after him. And this is Byrne, he goes on all these shows, and he says he has tapes, and he has the FBI informant, and he has the, the former DEA agent, and he's got the, the Iranian spy who he's gonna bring in. He doesn't even show up to the trial. He refuses to come to the trial. Are you serious?

• 46:56Speaker 06

  Fires all his lawyers the day before we're supposed to begin picking a jury. He doesn't produce anything, okay? He literally doesn't produce anything. A default judgment is filed against him. And, um, uh, but now, I'm, I'm like two years into this. I mean, it's been since then. Are you serious? Two years into this, and we still don't have a full thing. And, like, and the court is gonna decide about punitive damages. And so in between the time he gets the default judgment, and the court is to decide, he goes back on Alex Jones, and repeats the entire thing over. Are you serious? Over again. Yeah. They just do this stuff with impunity. But the whole reason I tell this

• 47:33Speaker 06

  story is this, is your instinct is right. It's awful. Litigation sucks. I've been, I've, look, I've been tied up in, in criminal, and civil, and in courts, and, you know, I mean, like, I, I, I got, you know, I don't know, 14, 15 million dollars in debt that I have no idea that I'm gonna be able to pay off. I, I have, uh, you know, I mean, millions of dollars in debt. Um, uh, that, you know, nobody's riding to the rescue for Hunter Biden. My dad, you know, entered the presidency as the poorest man to ever take the office, and he left the presidency,

• 48:16Speaker 06

  the, you know, not poorest, I mean, which he's fine, but, you know, like, he has no, we have no generational wealth. I don't have any, you know, despite what these guys say, like, there's no billions of dollars buried underneath my dad's house in Delaware. And so, in order...

• 48:32Speaker 06

  What I think these people rely on is they are so, they either have the money and they just hire people to go harass people through the legal process. Like Trump does that a lot. I mean, that's for real. And, or, or they just don't care. And because litigation, even civil litigation, like what you're talking about, it just overwhelms your life. Mm hmm. I mean, the depositions that you have to sit through and they're prepared for. And then you gotta go through, you know, if you're suing for damages, then you gotta sit down with a psychologist of their choice to go through your entire life. And, you know, I

• 49:12Speaker 06

  mean, just to, it puts, it puts you in a really uncomfortable position. And then you're dependent upon the idea that your lawyers are gonna have, make, you know, be able to make it through the process, the motions process and the motions practice and, you know, and all, and, and three years later, you wake up and you go, what the fuck did I do this for? Yeah. You know? And so, my suggestion is this, is that I think that you got the response, I think you won already. Okay? And I know that you didn't enter this with the intention

• 49:55Speaker 06

  of winning anything, is that you were stating a fact based upon your own personal experience. And obviously, the personal experience of some of the people in the community that you come from, that have a real disdain for this guy. Mm hmm. And the way that they treated, they were treated by him, in his position of authority. And so, you speak a truth, what you believe to be a truth, or ask a question that's worthy of asking about anybody that is in a position of power, which is the right of every American to do. And you do that. And his response is to send you a letter from his lawyers?

• 50:32Speaker 06

  To tell you he's talking to his boys at six and then to get on and saying, you know, that you're a liar and this and that, and so we'll just let it go now?

• 50:40Shawn Ryan?

  And challenge me to an interview?

• 50:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:42Shawn Ryan?

  The funny thing is Hunter,

• 50:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 50:44Shawn Ryan?

  I invited him on the fucking show in the original thing. And then after that, he challenges me to an interview. It's like, well, Dan, you didn't really have to challenge me. I know you feel tough doing it. I'm sure you feel real tough doing it in front of your, you know, six followers that aren't bashing you right now. But I already fucking invited you, so you didn't have to do that.

• 51:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's my point is that if he thought that there was a value in him actually sitting down with you, then he can get on a plane like I did, fly his ass into Nashville and come to the studio and sit down with you. You know, and so I don't think that's gonna happen though, Sean.

• 51:26Shawn Ryan?

  We'll see. Man, I fucking hope it does.

• 51:29Speaker 06

  I'm just taking bets. We'll have to look at Polly Market after this.

• 51:31Shawn Ryan?

  I know, right? I think they're gonna do another one. I'll bet they do another one.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  Well, what we're gonna really, I want to look at is Polly Market right now of whether or not you're gonna get canceled after you air this interview with me.

• 51:46Shawn Ryan?

  I'll bet the answer's no.

• 51:47Speaker 06

  No, I bet you're not.

• 51:48Shawn Ryan?

  But, uh, all right, Hunter, I want to get in, I want to get into your story. So everybody starts with an introduction. Hunter Biden, son of the 46th President of the United States, Joe Biden, and the late Neelya Biden, and the anniversary of her death is tomorrow. That happened 50-

• 52:08Speaker 06

  Two days.

• 52:09Shawn Ryan?

  53 years ago.

• 52:10Speaker 06

  Yep, that's right.

• 52:11Shawn Ryan?

  I'm really sorry, man.

• 52:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 52:12Shawn Ryan?

  And, um, survived a car accident in 1972 that killed your mother and babysitter. Worked as a lawyer, businessman, lobbyist, and naval officer. A recovering drug addict who's been sober for over six years. Like I said earlier, congratulations.

• 52:28Speaker 06

  Thanks, man.

• 52:29Shawn Ryan?

  You've turned art as a form of, into a form of therapy and recovery from addiction. Author of the bestselling memoir, Beautiful Things. Happily married to Melissa, and you're a father of five children. You have lived one of the most scrutinized, polarizing, and chaotic American lives of the last decade. So, once again, welcome to the show. And, uh, just a couple of things to crank out. Everybody gets a gift. So those are Vigilance League gummy bears made here in the USA, up in Michigan,

• 53:07Shawn Ryan?

  legal in all 50 states. So you're not gonna sabotage your sobriety. But, and then I got

• 53:15Speaker 06

  you these. Are these, what's the, what's the, the, the principal ingredient of these?

• 53:21Shawn Ryan?

  It's just sugar. It's literally just sugar. Yeah, I was gonna do CBD gummies because I have sleep problems. And then my marketer was like, you're gonna get sued for catering CBD to kids and gummy bears. And I said, fine, we'll just do fucking. I'm all for sugar, man. Right on.

• 53:35Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 53:36Shawn Ryan?

  And then I got you something else. And this is, so I know you grew up Catholic. I don't know where you stand today, but that is from one of my friends, a really good friend of mine over at SEAL Team Six, was at SEAL Team Six, and he has since retired. And he calls those the Warriors Rosary.

• 54:01Speaker 06

  I love this. Thank you very much.

• 54:03Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome.

• 54:03Speaker 06

  It means the world to me, for real.

• 54:05Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. And I carry one of those around with me everywhere for protection. In fact, mine's in my pocket right now. So.

• 54:12Speaker 06

  Thank you. My dad wears one on his, on his wrist.

• 54:15Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 54:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's always us.

• 54:17Shawn Ryan?

  Right on, man.

• 54:20Speaker 06

  This means a lot to me. I brought you a gift. That's in the, it's in the other room. But I'll show you at the break.

• 54:26Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect. Perfect.

• 54:30Speaker 06

  But I really, really appreciate this. It's really meaningful. Thank you very much.

• 54:33Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. And then the last thing before we get into it, I have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account, and it's turned into one hell of a community. And so what do I, I, I offer them the opportunity to ask every single guest a question. And this is from Ian Lane. You've spoken openly about addiction, loss, and recovery while living under intense public scrutiny. How do you reconcile taking personal responsibility for your actions while also resisting being reduced to your worst moments?

• 55:04Speaker 06

  Yeah. You know, I was talking to some of you guys before we came in here, and one of the things that I was, I think that.

• 55:19Speaker 06

  People would be the most surprised about me is that the past six years of my life, since I got clean and sober,

• 55:33Speaker 06

  those years in which all of this scrutiny, I mean, descended upon me, like, you know, people say, you know, you must be used to this. Your dad's been in politics so like, there's nothing, nothing that I've ever experienced, or I know anybody else that's ever experienced. I mean, I was on the, I think, the cover of the New York Post more times than one year than anybody in the history of the paper going back to like seventeen, eighty, and none of it was good. Are you serious? I didn't know that. At one point, uh, the New York Post was, uh, was publishing, uh, like 2.5 articles about me a day. Wow. For like, m- months, months, months long period of time. And, um, and again,

• 56:16Speaker 06

  none of it was good. And then you had Daily Mail and you had the whole kind of, right? Anyway, my point being is this, is that there's scrutiny and then there's just like,

• 56:30Speaker 06

  complete and utter, like, you know, living in a, in a, a glass house naked, um, uh, you know, in, with the lights on 24/7. And, and that's what it was like. And so, it forced me to make a decision, particularly in early recovery, which was this.

• 56:51Speaker 06

  When I wake up in the morning, do I want to live or do I want to die? And when you choose to live, it's, um, uh, it's not that you realize you're making the choice not on your terms, on life's terms. I choose to live on life's terms. Whatever comes my way is I gotta make a choice. Because when I say live or die, I mean this, is that I still am absolutely certain that if I touch a drink or a drug, I'm dead. It's a matter of life and death for me. Now, I think that, that, that, uh, you can relapse and you can, people have been able to, but I don't think that I can. And, um,

• 57:35Speaker 06

  and so I was given that gift of utter, complete desperation to remain clean and sober.

• 57:44Speaker 06

  And

• 57:46Speaker 06

  And you've been through it, and that's a beautiful thing to have.

• 57:51Speaker 06

  And the other thing that it did for me is it forced me on a daily basis

• 57:58Speaker 06

  to realize how fucking lucky I am.

• 58:03Speaker 06

  You know?

• 58:07Speaker 06

  I don't know, I mean, I talk about it in my, in my book and, and, but it,

• 58:17Speaker 06

  I was making a decision on a daily basis to kill myself, but it was the coward's way.

• 58:23Speaker 06

  How would you have done it? Well, drinking and drugging, to the degree that I was. I was drinking, you know, a handle of vodka a day. I mean, which is worse than, you know, the amount of crack that I was smoking. The, the problem with the crack is the positions that you put, put you in, in order to get it. That was the most dangerous part about the crack. The most dangerous part to my physical body was, was alcohol, by far and away, in terms of the way in which it impacts every organ in your body.

• 58:54Speaker 06

  And, you know, it's the only drug that you can die from other than benzos for withdrawing from. And, and so,

• 59:05Speaker 06

  that's what I was doing to myself. And when I got,

• 59:11Speaker 06

  when I

• 59:14Speaker 06

  accepted the miracle of

• 59:19Speaker 06

  believing that there's something greater than myself

• 59:23Speaker 06

  that could help me

• 59:26Speaker 06

  get clean and sober.

• 59:31Speaker 06

  I lived in, in, with that realization at the front of my brain every, every morning that I woke up, and still do, and still do. So despite the perspective that anyone would have from the outside world, understandably, whether you love me or you hate me.

• 59:52Speaker 06

  I would suggest if you hate me, you don't know me, get to know me, then you can hate me. But regardless is that it has been the last six and a half years, despite everything that has gone on, has been the most incredibly difficult but fulfilling period of my life. Yeah, I feel.

• 1:00:23Speaker 06

  I know.

• 1:00:27Speaker 06

  I know myself better than I've ever known myself in my whole life now, and I'm still learning. But I feel more comfortable in my skin today than I've ever felt in my skin.

• 1:00:41Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you. Good for you, man. Man, just, you know, doing the math and thinking about

• 1:00:51Shawn Ryan?

  the last six years, you know, of what we've been through in this country. And then to think about what you have been through in your first six years of sobriety. I mean, holy shit, dude, that is your dad's campaign. Four years in the White House and then the first year of the Trump administration. I mean, wow, that's a lot to go through for your first six fucking years of sobriety.

• 1:01:21Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:21Shawn Ryan?

  Congratulations.

• 1:01:22Speaker 06

  I appreciate it, man. I'm really, you know, that's the say. I know that I haven't handled it all.

• 1:01:33Speaker 06

  You know, I'm.

• 1:01:38Speaker 06

  By no stretch of any imagination, I mean remotely perfect, to say the least. But I am really proud of, you know, at least that.

• 1:01:50Shawn Ryan?

  Good.

• 1:01:51Speaker 06

  I'm proud of my, I'm proud of my recovery.

• 1:01:54Shawn Ryan?

  Good. Should be.

• 1:01:56Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:01:58Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Hunter, you ready?

• 1:01:59Speaker 06

  I'm ready, man.

• 1:02:01Shawn Ryan?

  Where did you grow up?

• 1:02:04Speaker 06

  I grew up in Wilmington, Delaware.

• 1:02:08Speaker 06

  You know Wilmington is about thirty minutes outside of Philadelphia, south of Philly. And Delaware is, as everybody knows, a really small state. And when my dad was twenty-nine years old, he ran against a three-term incumbent senator, a guy named Caleb Boggs, who then became a friend of my dad's after. But nobody thought that he would win, he was twenty-nine. He was too young to be sworn in when he was elected. And it was nineteen seventy-two, and he won by a few thousand votes.

• 1:02:51Speaker 06

  And he became the youngest ever elected member of the United States Senate that wasn't appointed, as they were before like nineteen thirty-five. And despite the fact that my dad was a United States Senator, you know, Delaware's a really small state. And when my mom and my sister were killed in that accident, my brother and I were in the backseat. And it's amazing, I just got a letter from someone.

• 1:03:26Speaker 06

  It said, "The woman..." And I literally just got it. And when I was on, I just saw it for the first time on the plane. "The woman," and I didn't even know this story, that was on, she was an off-duty nurse.

• 1:03:43Speaker 06

  And she drove by the scene, in which we got struck by a tractor trailer that was coming down a hill on this like four-lane road, or two-lane road. And my mom pulled out into the intersection, I guess.

• 1:04:00Speaker 06

  And...

• 1:04:06Speaker 06

  We, Bo and I were trapped in the car. And according to this note that I just got, everybody assumed, just thought that we were dead. And so we were in the car for an extended period of time. And the nurse came onto the scene, she just was passing by. And she's the one that reached in and gave us the first aid to save our lives. Whoa. And I'd never met her. And you just got a letter from her? Just got a letter from one of her family's members saying that she just passed away. And that she thought that I would want to know. Isn't that amazing? Wow.

• 1:04:44Speaker 06

  Wow. Yeah. It's amazing. And, um, I literally have to only tell the story that, uh, it was a really, really violent and horrific, um, event. My brother ended up in the hospital. Both of us ended up in the hospital for extended period of time. My biggest issue was I had, um, serious brain trauma. And my brother was basically in a cast, a body cast for, you know, interaction for a long time. Shit. And, um, and, uh, uh, but the amazing part was, is that the, Delaware is small state.

• 1:05:27Speaker 06

  I mean, the state adopted us. You know, they, I mean, really like, I have more aunts and uncles to come up with. That, I mean, uh, and in that respect, um, you know,

• 1:05:45Speaker 06

  my dad came from a normal, middle-class family. And he entered the United States Senate, a normal, middle-class guy. And, you know, I said, he made a, um, he made a vow in 1972 because it was right prior to the beginning of Watergate and you had the Spirit Reckoning. And he made a, he, he made a pledge that he would never own a stock or a bond. And he hasn't, other than through whatever retirement account that he has with the United States government. Wow. And he's just a goddamn motherfucker. Because I have, I have some legal bills that I could use some of the stocks to bond. But my point was, is that, you know,

• 1:06:31Speaker 06

  despite the fact that my dad was a United States Senator my whole life, Delaware's a really small place. And, um, so, you know, if I got pulled over for speeding, my brother and I on our way to school, you know, it wasn't like, oh, it was like, your dad, Joe's gonna kick your asses. You know what I mean? That, like, that was kind of the way in which we grew up. Because my dad commuted every day. He decided that, um, my aunt moved in, into the house. And my uncle, my uncle built a apartment above the little garage that we had. And he moved in for a period of time. And, uh, we spent almost every other day, at least, with my grandparents.

• 1:07:11Speaker 06

  And, uh, so we were raised, and then we got remarried when I, when I was, uh, seven, Bo was eight. And, um, and, uh, so I had a pretty normal life, you know? And out of that tragedy, I kind of gained a,

• 1:07:31Speaker 06

  a whole kind of extended family that maybe I wouldn't have otherwise. It was a beautiful thing. Yeah. Yeah. And my relationship with my brother, you know, I, I literally, I think I, one way or another, except when he was in Iraq for a year, I'd talk to him, my brother, at least once a day. Really? Yeah. And we were,

• 1:07:53Speaker 06

  inseparable and we used to fight and beat the shit out of each other like brothers do, but yeah, yeah. He was the, the closest, uh, thing I've had in the world. What kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

• 1:08:08Speaker 06

  Sports, you know? Sports? Yeah. What kind of sports? I played football, but, you know, when I was much younger, um, you know, I played everything. But then in high school, football. Yeah.

• 1:08:21Speaker 06

  But we did everything, you know what I mean? I mean, we spent, we, how old are you?

• 1:08:26Shawn Ryan?

  Forty-three.

• 1:08:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, so I'm fifty-five, so you're the tail end. I mean, you're actually, no, you're not. But like, we spent our lives outside. Like from, you know.

• 1:08:37Speaker 06

  The rule was when, you know, when the streetlights went on, then you had to come in.

• 1:08:40Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:41Speaker 06

  And so we just, literally, whether it was, you know, summer, winter, it didn't matter, we spent our entire time outside on BMXs and skateboards and, you know, in the pond behind the house and, you know. All we did was, you know, shoot BB guns at each other.

• 1:08:59Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 1:09:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:09:01Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean,

• 1:09:04Shawn Ryan?

  what's it like growing up in, in, in politics and the, and the political elite?

• 1:09:09Speaker 06

  That's what I'm trying to say, is that for us, I didn't grow up in DC.

• 1:09:13Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:13Speaker 06

  You know, my, uh, my dad never, he never had, I never experienced that, you know, DC insider, and that's maybe why I have such an amazing disdain for the people that continue to, like, you know, one of the things that you realize about DC and about being a United States Senator, you know, in Congress, is that, you know, there are a lot of people that give the, the true blood, sweat and tears to become elected, but there's like a permanent power class in DC. And I'm not talking about like some shadow government, or, I mean, the identifiable people that go from administration to administration, that go from, you know, uh, you know, working from, for, you know, one think tank to another.

• 1:09:58Speaker 06

  And my dad was never a part of that. You know? He, you know, uh, uh, I mean, he came home every night. He famously hated to fundraise, and he didn't need to fundraise that much, because, you know, come from a state of, you know, just under a million people. And, um, and so, in many respects, I could, a very, very normal life. You know, I went to, you know, I went to a little Quaker school, and then I went to St. Edmund's Academy, and, um, you know, I think I got more demerits than anyone in the history, according to somebody I just saw, in the history of that school. And I went to, you know, the Catholic high school that my dad went to, and then I went to Georgetown, I worked for the Jedward Volunteer Corps, when I got out of school,

• 1:10:43Speaker 06

  it's like Domestic Peace Corps, you know what I mean? But in terms of growing up in politics, The only thing that I can say is that we had an incredible, um, uh,

• 1:10:55Speaker 06

  we had a rule, which was, it was based out of the, the accident, is that Bo and I could go with my dad anywhere if we asked. And we also knew enough not to take advantage of it to the degree that it was, became like to get out of, you know, the math test or something like that. But we did take advantage of it to the degree, we went everywhere with my dad. Really? Me, Bo and my dad, like everywhere. And, um, and the rule was, you know, you speak when you're spoken to. And if you're gonna sit in a meeting, you, you know, I don't, when, since we were five years old, is you'd go up and you shake somebody's hand. You say, um, nice to meet you, sir, nice to meet you, ma'am.

• 1:11:39Speaker 06

  And then if you wanna stay in the room, then you, you know, you sit, you sit and you sit quietly until you're spoken to. And we loved to do that. Really? Yeah, I mean, so we were, you know, we were with my dad.

• 1:11:54Speaker 06

  We went everywhere together, everywhere. And, um, uh, and what a gift, you know? I mean, like, uh, and so we would go, get on the train with them. And we'd go and we'd go and sit in the cloakroom while he would go out and, you know, on the center floor. But then we would, um, we would leave. So unlike other United States senators and their families or congresspeople that move their families to DC and get a, you know, house in Georgetown and go to, you know, St. Albans and, you know, go to all the same restaurants. Um, uh, Bo and I like, you know, were little shadow of a, of a United States senator.

• 1:12:37Speaker 06

  But then we get back on the train and go back to Delaware. And so, um, in that respect, it was really unique kinda life. And one that I never didn't have, my dad's so proud. So you were, you were like really close with your dad? Oh, he was so proud. He, you know, the thing he loved to do more than anything is take people, he would literally, he, we, we would be walking in the senate. Um, and he would run into some tourists from.

• 1:13:10Speaker 06

  Jiminy, I mean, like, it didn't matter what state. And because they'd be like asking somebody how to get somewhere, he'd go, come on. And he would take them, and he would take them to all these corners of the Capitol and show them like the, you know, the chambers that nobody gets to go in. And if the Senate wasn't in session, he'd take them to the, you know, to the Senate floor and open other senators' desks for them. It'd just be some, like, Republican, you know, tourist from, you know, Des Moines, or, you know, or, you know, Omaha. I mean, literally. And I love that with my dad. He just so proud.

• 1:13:51Speaker 06

  He knew every story of every, you know, of every, of every great person that had come before him. And I got to sit, you know, spend a lot of time with people that have names that nobody would remember, but they were kind of like our babysitters to Bo and I. And people that would, would kind of be shocked in terms of the politics, almost all of them. Not all of them, but a great deal of them, Republicans, very conservative Republicans. I mean, I suggest if you want to read something about the way in which my dad served as a United States Senator, go read his eulogy for Strom Thurmond. Okay.

• 1:14:34Speaker 06

  And for whoever's listening to this, Strom Thurmond, you know, started the Dixie crap party because he broke from the Democratic Party based upon their position on civil rights and on the Voting Rights Act. And over a very, very long period of time, Strom Thurmond very much changed. But he had, he led a career that was incredibly divisive as relates, but my dad was able to work with him. And, and he was able to work with people like Jesse Helms.

• 1:15:15Speaker 06

  And, and I think that, you know, he had more success in terms of bipartisan legislation than any president in modern history. And one of the reasons is, is because he was trusted by, you know, Mitch McConnell and the people that had worked with him for. Decades in the Republican Party.

• 1:15:36Speaker 07

  Now, more than ever, we need someone on our side. But Rob Whitman? Whitman's votes drove up costs, cut Medicaid, and risked 350,000 Virginians' health care to pay for tax breaks for himself and his donors. He's not on our side. Shannon Taylor will fight corruption, cut taxes, and bring down costs. This November, vote for Shannon Taylor. She's for us. Paid for by HMP, the House Majority PAC dot com. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company informed me of the explosion on our rig.

• 1:16:09Speaker 01

  On October 2nd.

• 1:16:10Speaker 00

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Tom Cruise is.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up.

• 1:16:20Speaker 01

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 1:16:22Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 1:16:29Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 1:16:31Speaker 01

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 1:16:36Speaker 06

  But anyway, that was my life. And so, it was very, very normal in the respect of, like, you know, went to Catholic day school and went to a Catholic high school my dad went to. Played football. I got in trouble. I, you know, got in fights, you know, made it through. And not completely unscathed, but, you know, with an incredibly tight-knit, close family. And a pretty idyllic childhood, combined with this experience that I don't know of anybody

• 1:17:18Speaker 06

  that I know of that had, at least during that period of time, as a kid, was able to witness some of the things that Bo and I were able to witness. That's interesting. Yeah, it was really, really amazing.

• 1:17:32Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:17:38Shawn Ryan?

  How was it when? How were you in Jill's relationship? Are you?

• 1:17:43Speaker 06

  Very close.

• 1:17:44Shawn Ryan?

  Very close?

• 1:17:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Shawn Ryan?

  How was it when she came to the, came into the picture when you were a kid? Sounds like you were about five?

• 1:17:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, and so my mom, I was just about three. I was a month or so away from, uh, from turning three when my mom died. And Bo was just before his fourth birthday. We're, Bo and I were a year and a day apart, February 3rd and 4th. And, um, and, uh, my sister was 13 months younger. And, um, and, uh, and she obviously passed in the, in the accident.

• 1:18:20Speaker 06

  And I guess my dad and my mom met like a couple of years later. And then, um, I think, you know, famously, my dad asked my mom to marry him like five times before she said yes. And she explains it this way is that she was so in love with Bo and I. And she loved my dad, but she just, she was so scared that she would, um, that it was so. And I love that about her.

• 1:18:54Speaker 06

  I said, um, and I don't want to speak for my mom, but she was, um, but yeah. My mom is, is, I, Bo and I asked her. We literally got her dad by the hand and went into the, um, uh, into the room. And we said, will you marry us? It was our idea to do it.

• 1:19:13Shawn Ryan?

  You're kidding me?

• 1:19:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:19:13Shawn Ryan?

  That's how it?

• 1:19:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 1:19:15Speaker 06

  That's, I think that's when she finally said yes.

• 1:19:19Speaker 06

  With the assist from Bo and I, yeah.

• 1:19:21Shawn Ryan?

  Do you remember doing that?

• 1:19:22Speaker 06

  I, I 100% remember.

• 1:19:24Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 1:19:24Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:19:26Shawn Ryan?

  That's cool, man.

• 1:19:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. And so when people said, call her my, my stepmom or refer to her, is that she's my mom. I mean, I have my, would, you know, Bo and I always referred because it's from the age of mommy. It was mom. And, um, and, uh, and my mom is, has always been incredibly, uh, reverential about my birth mom, my Amelia.

• 1:19:58Speaker 06

  And has always given us the space to honor that, you know. It's a hard thing to do.

• 1:20:05Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:06Speaker 06

  We did it.

• 1:20:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:07Speaker 06

  I credit all that to my dad, too. You know, being able to thread that needle. I'll tell you what. You know, he's the best dad I've ever read about, heard about, and I swear to God, I'm not just saying that. Is that, um, you know, it's not an easy job. And, uh, and, uh, and I'm sure he thinks he's made mistakes, but, but I don't.

• 1:20:38Speaker 06

  Anyway, so, yeah, that was kind of what it was like growing up. So I got no excuses, Sean.

• 1:20:43Shawn Ryan?

  Right. I got you.

• 1:20:45Speaker 06

  So all my fuckups are my own. That's what I've come to the determination of.

• 1:20:50Shawn Ryan?

  Hey, that's a good way to be, right?

• 1:20:52Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 1:20:52Shawn Ryan?

  Extreme ownership.

• 1:20:53Speaker 06

  Well, that was one of the questions is, I think you said, is the accountability piece of it. And I'll tell you what. I, I, you know, uh, last six years, you know, I mean, I know that we'll get to this part because it's the end of the, or at least the end of the beginning of the story is, um, uh, the pardon, but, um, but I, I, I, I think that, you know, I, I paid a price. Definitely paid a price.

• 1:21:27Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Speaker 06

  Maybe people don't think it's enough, and I don't think they will ever think that it's enough. But, um, I promise you, and maybe you know this too, is that nobody can hold you accountable more harshly than you hold yourself.

• 1:21:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:44Speaker 06

  And I've been there, and I'm over it, and I'm done with it, and I'm not going to live in that guilt and shame anymore.

• 1:21:49Shawn Ryan?

  Good for you.

• 1:21:51Speaker 06

  And I am, uh, uh, I'm at peace. And knowing that I'm still trying to figure things out, you know what I mean? I try to do the next right thing, but sometimes I fuck up still. Um, I think less and less, and, uh, never because of not trying.

• 1:22:14Shawn Ryan?

  What what kind of

• 1:22:18Shawn Ryan?

  what what are the discussions like at the Biden dinner table nowadays? I mean, do you guys talk about politics? Do you talk about?

• 1:22:24Speaker 06

  And you believe he fucking said that?

• 1:22:27Shawn Ryan?

  Really? Or do you guys totally just?

• 1:22:30Speaker 06

  No, we're just like any other family, not at all. I mean, Jesus Christ, I might I I say to people, you know, I mean, here's the bullshit. Is this? Is

• 1:22:43Speaker 06

  and I know, maybe we'll get to this at some point, but I don't want to, but I don't want to spend time on it because like in in defense. My dad got old.

• 1:22:52Speaker 06

  He got old in front of people's eyes. He literally lost a step, like literally lost a physical step.

• 1:23:01Speaker 06

  But he didn't lose a step in terms of his capacity and his capability in terms of his intellectual ability to be the president of the United States. So all this bullshit about, you know, Joe Biden didn't know what was going on and did, I mean, find one person to go on the record. One person that is actually worked for or worked with Joe Biden.

• 1:23:30Speaker 06

  Like, here's my problem with Jake Tapper. Okay? Who wrote a book, um, you know, uh, well, the other guy wrote the book and Jake Tapper slapped his name on it. But wrote a book without one single on the record source to say that it was a kind of open secret that Joe Biden was mentally incapacitated. Find one person, Sean.

• 1:23:55Speaker 06

  And I and that's the thing, but what you did see is this. You saw someone become physically less robust and more frail. You saw him, uh, the the way that he walked in his shortened gait. You saw that his movements become stiffer. You saw, um, uh, a slower speech. And, um, and that's called getting old. And it happened, you know, I mean, and I don't know if you have parents, but you know, I was I was shocked by it. I mean, I and I don't know, this is one of these other things where just I think people just need to use a common sense. Is it, it's not like it's unique.

• 1:24:39Speaker 06

  Now, here's the thing.

• 1:24:44Speaker 06

  Does that mean

• 1:24:47Speaker 06

  that uh he should have stepped aside, shouldn't have stepped aside, um you know, the debate was like it like it it blew up the whole thing and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all of that stuff. But the the fact of the matter is, is that I'm sitting here having this discussion about, you know,

• 1:25:09Speaker 06

  uh

• 1:25:11Speaker 06

  my dad, when, I mean, are you kidding me? I mean, I've watched the president, current president, I mean, I've literally watched him, we all have, fall asleep

• 1:25:26Speaker 06

  in a press conference that is his, in the Oval Office,

• 1:25:33Speaker 06

  multiple times now. And that's not, you know, and by the way, I don't think he has dementia. And I'm not saying that at all, but he's getting old too. And I think that we, you know.

• 1:25:46Shawn Ryan?

  Do you, I mean.

• 1:25:48Speaker 06

  How do we even start talking about this? Did I just bring this up?

• 1:25:50Shawn Ryan?

  You just brought it up, so.

• 1:25:52Speaker 06

  Fuck, what?

• 1:25:52Shawn Ryan?

  I actually wasn't planning on talking about this.

• 1:25:54Speaker 06

  Gotcha, I knew you would.

• 1:25:56Shawn Ryan?

  But I I mean, I will say that, you know, and and yeah, I I just, Hunter, I want to be able to speak without offending you, you know, and and so I'm just, I'm gonna be blunt. But, you know, I mean, I have seen your dad on air fumble his words and seemingly forget what he's talking about. But I don't think that that is, I don't think that is, I'm not attacking your dad, I'm not. I think that, I think there are a lot of people that have spent way too many, way too many years in politics. I think Mitch McConnell is one of those people.

• 1:26:33Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, when you watch Mitch over the past year or two, there's been several examples where he totally blanks out completely.

• 1:26:42Speaker 06

  That's a very different thing, Sean.

• 1:26:43Shawn Ryan?

  Blanks out.

• 1:26:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, I I think.

• 1:26:45Shawn Ryan?

  I think that, I think there are a lot of people in government right now, president included, who are too fucking old to be there.

• 1:26:53Speaker 06

  But, so you come from it, and the reason that I'm sitting here is I've heard you say that, and you don't come from it with the cruelty. And or bullshit, or may having to make things up, or to say, you personally know. Like, I've seen somebody who gets sits here and say, like, oh, yeah, we, everybody knew that he had X, Y, or Z. And I just, it makes you so angry as a son, but I've never heard you say that before. And and I can say to you is that I totally, completely can appreciate the position that you have about that. Now, I can go through a series of rationales for why my dad decided to run for a second term.

• 1:27:38Speaker 06

  Okay, number one, he's the only guy that was able to beat Donald Trump. And this is what people, I think, that that I sit and I listen to these, you know,

• 1:27:52Speaker 06

  these democratic pundits that have made millions of dollars off of just breathing hot air into a microphone and living off of the fact that they, you know, they they they carried Barack Obama's bag. Do you know what I mean? Mm hmm. Or taking credit for, you know, running his campaign like David Axelrod does. Nobody, nobody made Barack Obama, except Barack Obama. But they sit around and they act as if they, they know, they know things that other people don't. And they make, well, you know, he should have just, he he shouldn't have run for a second term.

• 1:28:33Speaker 06

  Wouldn't they know better about the reality of the politics of the presidency? Which is this, is that Joe Biden got 81 million votes. He got more votes than anyone that has ever run for president of the United States by 7 million votes, more than anyone that's ever run. He had a higher voter participation rate than any time since 1900.

• 1:29:01Speaker 06

  Okay. And he came into the presidency and in a two-year period of time, he passed more bipartisan legislation than any president since Lyndon Johnson, since 60 years ago. Okay. He passed the PACT Act and the Chips and Science Act and then we can just go down the list. He tries the Infrastructure Act and then he passed the IRA. He passed more legislation on a bipartisan basis, by the way, than anybody. He would have passed immigration reform if Trump hadn't kiboshed it at the end. And so he goes into the midterms and he has the most successful midterms of any president since FDR.

• 1:29:45Speaker 06

  He limits the losses in the House of Representatives to single digits. He gains a seat in the United States Senate, which hasn't happened since 1932, and he picked up more governorships and state houses than any president since FDR, since 1932 also, who worked with super majorities. So after that, what's the decision that you make as a president of the United States? Because if you say that you're not going to run at that time, what ends up happening is you become a lame duck. You use all the power of influence that you have. And so, based upon that success and based upon the feeling that while he was losing

• 1:30:27Speaker 06

  a physical step, while his speech slowed, that he still had the capacity to be able to make the most important decisions that had led to the successes that he's had up until that point, he decided that he was going to run again. And then he ran. And then what happened was, is every little thing, every time he went up the steps of Air Force One, and if he used the short steps instead of the long steps, and if he stumbled when he was walking to the podium, and if he tripped over a word of a president that he was talking about India and not Iraq, and every single thing became a New York Times level, two-page expose.

• 1:31:12Speaker 06

  The New York Times wrote over 120 separate pieces on Joe Biden's age in a like 11-month period of time. Fox News didn't stop talking about it. And so here you are, is it, you can't run away from the impression and then comes the debate. And that was a complete and utter disaster. And he recovered in the debate, if you go back and watch the debate, he recovered in the debate and was able to, you know, get through the debate, but it reinforced every preconceived notion that people had, whether you loved him or hated him. So then he's got to make a decision about whether or not he's going to stay in the race.

• 1:31:57Speaker 06

  And the primaries over, he overwhelmingly won, he'd gotten the challenge from Dean Phillips, anyone could have run against him, anybody in the party could have run against him. And no one did. Why didn't they? Because he had the most successful presidency of any Democrat or any president in, in, in his two years, in the three years that he was there, regardless of whether you think so or not, in terms of whether you, the affordability, or whether he'd gotten inflation down enough or anybody, but just in terms of the brass tacks. I mean, look at what he did as it relates to NATO. He was able to negotiate a, you may disagree with us strengthening NATO, but he was able

• 1:32:38Speaker 06

  to bring Sweden and Finland into NATO, the first, uh, uh, separate new members of NATO since the pact was, um, created in 1940, 48. I mean, whatever your position on the things that he did, he did them exceedingly well and accomplished them. And he, and he had mistakes like every other president's had, um, um, some that I may disagree with, but absolutely 100% had some real failures also. What do you think some of those failures were? I think the failure, one of the failures was the way in which they executed the withdrawal from Afghanistan. I think it was an obvious fucking failure. I think 13, uh, uh, Marines are dead. I think that there was a better way to do it.

• 1:33:23Speaker 06

  And I think that, um, uh, and I can blame it on his generals, I can blame it on the people, the way, way in which we did it, but my dad always knew this also, is that the buck stops with him. I think that that was a failure. I don't think leaving Afghanistan. I think leaving Afghanistan was the right thing to do. I think that in terms of the 20 years of blood that your brothers gave to for an endless war and $8 trillion is that there is a never-ending lust to continue to sell material and our blood, sweat and money to a country

• 1:34:04Speaker 06

  that has never been anything but a killing ground for empires. So regardless of whether you believe that or not, the execution of the withdrawal

• 1:34:17Speaker 06

  resulted, I think, in, and by the way, you can blame part of it on Trump and that he let all those people out of the prison and Taliban. But you know what? But it stops with the president and that's what he said. That was a mistake. Well, how does he feel about that now? Same way that I do. Is that those lives literally are, you know, I mean, I don't think that there's anything that

• 1:34:40Speaker 06

  that is more, and I don't want to speak for my dad, but I know my dad.

• 1:34:46Speaker 06

  You know, it's crushed by that, crushed by it.

• 1:34:52Speaker 06

  Just absolutely crushed.

• 1:34:55Speaker 06

  And

• 1:34:58Speaker 06

  and I've been, and I don't, and I don't expect

• 1:35:03Speaker 06

  I don't think, when do we lose the idea that that would be a surprise to anybody? Like, for instance, I disagree with George Bush on a lot of shit when he was president.

• 1:35:16Speaker 06

  But I never, ever, ever questioned whether or not he was a patriot.

• 1:35:26Speaker 06

  You know? Or, by the way, I guess I, who could, patriot, what does that even mean? Is that?

• 1:35:37Speaker 06

  Is that if he could,

• 1:35:41Speaker 06

  he would do anything that he could to protect the people that we send to serve in harm's way for our, for our freedom. I just believe that. And um, doesn't make it any easier for the people that have lost people, for the families that have lost people, for the brothers or sisters or the dad, you know? I mean, shit.

• 1:36:07Speaker 06

  I don't know for certain that my brother's brain cancer was the direct in, you know, result of the burn pits that he lived by for a year in Iraq when he was there. But I bet you had something to do with it.

• 1:36:22Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I bet it had something to do with it.

• 1:36:24Speaker 06

  That's not like being shot and I'm positive it had something to do with it. But I mean, like, I don't want to, like, the, the point being is um,

• 1:36:33Speaker 06

  I don't know. I think that there's a lot of things that you can't imagine

• 1:36:42Speaker 06

  the kinds of decisions that you have to make as a president. And that if you have a heart and you care, it is just um, must be so overwhelmingly beyond comprehension difficult.

• 1:36:56Shawn Ryan?

  I cannot fucking stand the way the Afghan withdrawal happened.

• 1:37:00Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:02Shawn Ryan?

  It, it, it, it. I don't even want to talk about it because it's, it's, it's, it's going to get me into a really dark place. But I will say that um, you know, when you have to make a decision on whether,

• 1:37:19Shawn Ryan?

  when you have to make a decision and whatever decision you're going to make, people are going to die.

• 1:37:24Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:24Shawn Ryan?

  Because of the decision that you made.

• 1:37:26Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:27Shawn Ryan?

  That would be a really fucking tough call.

• 1:37:30Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:30Shawn Ryan?

  So I will, I will give him that.

• 1:37:33Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:33Shawn Ryan?

  But.

• 1:37:34Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:37:36Shawn Ryan?

  But the way that went down is um.

• 1:37:39Speaker 06

  I don't disagree with you, Sean, and I don't think that, and I, again, I know I was going to speak for my dad. But I, I would say this is that um,

• 1:37:52Speaker 06

  I, I, I hear your anger and, and I'm not here to tell you that you shouldn't be angry. You know, and one of the things is this, is that I don't think that, um, uh,

• 1:38:15Speaker 06

  one of the things my dad taught me, that he learned from a guy named Mike Mansfield, he talks about it all the time, so it's not like it's a story that, is, um,

• 1:38:24Speaker 06

  it's one thing to question, um, uh, a man's judgment, and that's okay. You say, I think he used poor judgment, this decision that you made, but to question their intent, um, question their, uh, whether or not they came to the job of whatever they're doing, um, uh, out of some, you know, mal-intent, or because they're just bad people, is, um, you never get anywhere, but you can question their judgment, you know? Question their judgment, whether they made the right judgment, or whether they were convinced by other people, or maybe there's, you know, whatever the circumstance, and I don't, I don't know, but I hear your, I, I hear your anger about that, and I don't have any response to it,

• 1:39:09Speaker 06

  other than the fact that I know that my dad came to, from a position of, that 20 years was enough. And, and, uh,

• 1:39:21Speaker 06

  and it was not in the interest of anyone in the United States, particularly those that's serving, to continue to, to churn people through, um, the, the 1% that have decided that they are going to be a part of protecting this country by holding the gun and, uh, you know, climbing into helicopters and putting themselves in harm's way.

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• 1:41:30Shawn Ryan?

  Well, let's get back to you.

• 1:41:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 1:41:32Shawn Ryan?

  Georgetown University. Did your dad ever, or your mom? I mean, what did they, did they ever talk about what they wanted you to be? Did they want you to get into politics? Did they want you to be an attorney?

• 1:41:43Speaker 06

  No, no. My dad, my dad wasn't like that. I mean, I kinda, you know, I, uh, I always wanted to write and paint. I mean, literally it's all.

• 1:41:54Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding? You were always into it?

• 1:41:55Speaker 06

  From the time I was a kid, yeah. And, um, and, uh, and I think the truth of the matter is that I never, um,

• 1:42:04Speaker 06

  I never had the courage to do it. I mean, it takes a lot of courage. And people may think that that's an exaggeration, but to put yourself out there through whatever creative process that you're privately engaged in, you know, I mean, it takes a lot, you know what I mean? And like, it's like, you know, I'm always amazed by people that can get up and dance in front of other people. I was never that guy. And, but I really mean it. I mean, instead of seeing it as like, oh, they're goofy, I look at them and I go, God, I wish I could do that. Well, one of the things that I, that I knew that I loved to do, but I didn't ever have the courage to do openly, I mean openly in the sense of like share it with, beyond, you know, my brother, was to paint and to write. No kidding?

• 1:42:49Speaker 06

  Yeah. When did you start that? Oh, since I was a kid, a little kid. Yeah. I mean, my, I think my aunt always used to tell me this story that my, my, my mom, my birth mom said that, that I was the poet and Bo was the politician. And so maybe that was ingrained in me through that kind of a thing, but that was, um, uh, I, and I think that I denied myself that. And so I, by the way, you know, so I went to Georgetown and, um, uh, Georgetown was

• 1:43:27Speaker 06

  okay, but I, I had a, everybody gets a Jesuit when you move into your freshman dorm, Jesuit lives on your floor, a guy named Ted Dzieak. And Ted Dzieak had started the Jesuit International Volunteer Corps. And it was like a, um, uh, similar to the Peace Corps, um, but it was kind of branded as a, as a, um, uh, under the Jesuit order, um, but only in the senses, non-eccumenical, it wasn't like a, you know, out proselytizing. It was like working in the community, social justice, um, thing. So they had, um, uh,

• 1:44:06Speaker 06

  A program in Dangriga, Belize, and they had a program in Micronesia, and they had a program in Nepal. And not a program, they had volunteer opportunities in those places. And so Ted Desiak and I, I became close with Father Desiak and, and he, we along, he along with nine, I think 10 other students, started a summer program, which is now in like, I don't know, 13 different countries and is a summer volunteer program and like for like 20 Jesuit universities all over the world. But we started it in Jesuit International Volunteer Summer Program in Belize. And so when I graduated from college, that's what

• 1:44:50Speaker 06

  I wanted to do. And I thought I was going to go into the Peace Corps. And, and another guy that I was friends with, Bill Watson, another Jesuit priest, this is a young, really brilliant guys, you know, PhDs in philosophy and just amazing, amazing individuals, really dynamic people that have lived all over the world. And he suggested that I not go, there's no need to go outside of the United States, just that if I wanted to serve, there was plenty of communities to serve here. And so I did the Jesuit Domestic Volunteer Corps,

• 1:45:31Speaker 06

  the JVC Northwest. I ended up in, I was supposed to go to an Indian Reservation in, in eastern Washington State. And I ended up, that, ended up going to Portland, Oregon, and rented an emergency services center for, for people that basically, families that didn't have enough money to, like, turn on their utilities, to turn on the lights or the gas or, you know, people with small, or groceries. And I was, you know, I sat in the Sat in the basement of a St. Vincent de Paul church in, you know, off Martin Letty King Avenue in Northwest Portland.

• 1:46:15Speaker 06

  And people would come in and I'd figure out how to get them groceries or go advocate for them to get their, you know, their utilities turned back on or make sure their kids could get somewhere with heat until we figured it out. And, and then I did that for a year and that's where I met my first wife and we had Naomi shortly after that. How'd you meet her? Yeah, she was also a volunteer. She was in there? Yeah. And, and then Naomi and I kind of realized that we're about to have a baby and, you know, eighty bucks a month wasn't gonna cut it. That's what you made as volunteer.

• 1:46:59Speaker 06

  Now, you got to live rent free in a house with other volunteers, but you got eighty bucks a month and everybody pulled their money for groceries. And, and even in 1992, eighty bucks a month was pretty. Pretty rough, huh? Pretty rough. But it was amazing, it was amazing experience and, but then I went to, I, I, I decided I needed to go law, to go back to school. And so I went to, I applied to two places. My brother was at Syracuse and I applied to Syracuse because they had a famous program for, writing program at Syracuse.

• 1:47:40Speaker 06

  And two schools, one was University program and Syracuse's program. And so I got into that writing program. And then I also got into Georgetown Law School and Duke. And, and I didn't know how I would be able to raise a, have a baby. I was 23. I thought I got to be in your family. Man. And so we went to DC and I went to law school. And then I, and then I, I transferred because I didn't get into Yale. When I first applied, um, but the dean had told me that if I do really well in my first

• 1:48:20Speaker 06

  year, um, I would make it to, I could, I could apply to transfer. And so like, I, I got in, I, I was one of 10 people, I don't know, like 5,000 that, that applied to transfer, but I did really well. And, um, I had my, I had Naomi on the day of my last exam, December 21st, uh, my civil procedure exam, and Professor Abanathie let me out of the exam to go have the baby. No kidding? Yeah, and, uh, and, and I took it after Christmas. Right on. But I did well. And, uh, and then I went to Yale and we lived in a basement apartment on Court Street.

• 1:49:05Speaker 06

  And I think we're the only, um, I'm the only person that, uh, got to cut the line at Sally's Pizza because Flo, this is a famous Flo who sat at this famous pizza place in New Haven, who has the best pizza in the world. Yeah, I, I mean, I looked like a kid. I mean, when I was 23 years old, walking around with Naomi, um, I mean, I went everywhere with her and, um, yeah, I mean, I looked like I was 16. People used to stop us all the time and go, now, when you get home, tell your parents that your little sister Damn. Needs to, you know, do this, that, or the other thing. How, how old is she now?

• 1:49:49Speaker 06

  She's 31 and she just had my, um, not just 10 months ago, 11 months ago, she had, uh, Willie, Willie, my grandson. Congratulations. Yeah, man. How is it being a granddad? Uh, it's, uh, it's the best. It's incredible. Yeah, yeah. It's, uh, and she's the best. I mean, I, she's, um, she's an incredibly accomplished woman. Uh, her husband is a, I love a lot and, um, and, uh, he's a public defender. He served in a, uh, he was an active duty, um, JAG officer, you know, for, uh, uh, for about two years when he got out of law school.

• 1:50:32Speaker 06

  And he's in the reserves now and, um, and he's now a public defender and, uh, in LA and Naomi's a fifth year associate in a big law firm.

• 1:50:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:50:46Speaker 06

  Where do we go, where do we go from here? Well, after that, um, I had a decision to make. And I had a lot of debt. And, um, so I had my law school debt and I had my college debt. And so, um, and at the time, I remember it was like a hundred and forty thousand dollars, um, you know, between law school and, and, uh,

• 1:51:12Speaker 06

  and Georgetown, um, because I'd taken out loans to go for both. My dad couldn't afford it. I remember my dad gave me the, for my first semester, he gave me the, the check was seventy five hundred dollars for my first semester at Georgetown. And he said, this was more money than, I think, uh, than my entire, um, uh, college and law school combined.

• 1:51:34Speaker 06

  And it was seventy five hundred dollars. And you think about it today, and that was my dad. My dad had to, um, uh, in order for us to do that, he, um, I remember distinctly, he bought a, an old property in, in, uh, in Wilmington, in a little town, in this little part of Wilmington called Greenville. And he, this little beat up, uh, house, beautiful house, but he bought it for like a hundred thousand dollars, but it had like five acres. And so, like, he sold off pieces of property to pay for, you know, my first year of college. But then we took out loans. And so then I was married and then I had law school loans. And the only way I was living off of it was the money I would make as a summer associate. So when I was getting out of law school, what I thought I would do is to spend a few

• 1:52:18Speaker 06

  years and do what a lot of people that I was working with then, is instead of going to the public service directly, is go work in the banking world. And I was gonna go work, I got an offer from Goldman Sachs and a bunch of other, uh, and I couldn't see how I'd live in New York City with a baby. Just didn't, I mean, I, and I met somebody in Delaware that was running a big bank there and they convinced me to go work in Delaware.

• 1:52:42Speaker 06

  And I went to work for, um, uh, a bank in Delaware and I was in like the executive management program. And after about two years of it, I just, like, I was like, I couldn't do it. And, um,

• 1:52:58Speaker 06

  Not because it was a wonderful place to work, but it's just like, it's just like, my heart was in it. And so I went down and I, I served in the Clinton administration, the last two years of it. And I was Executive Director of E-commerce Policy for the Department of Commerce, when they used to call it E-commerce.

• 1:53:14Shawn Ryan?

  How was that?

• 1:53:16Speaker 06

  It was a great experience. I worked for Bill Daley for two years and, and I traveled the world with him and e-commerce at the time was a new thing and, and there was real questions about, you know, privacy, a lot of stuff that still hasn't been resolved to this day. But it was a big job and that, you know, my title was, was a lot bigger than my, than my, you know, ability to affect anything. But, but it was a great learning experience.

• 1:53:44Shawn Ryan?

  You know, when you, when you were growing up, especially, I don't know, maybe from teenage years on, I mean, your dad's a senator.

• 1:53:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 1:53:51Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and I would imagine that a lot of people would try to use your dad's kids to get to him. For example, the bank that you worked at, I know, I have that they were a major, a major donor to your dad's campaigns. I mean, would that, would they ever, who, who, what, what type of people would try to use you to get to your dad? How would they do it?

• 1:54:17Speaker 06

  Well, I mean, that's the thing is that the, the reality is this, is that you come to the understanding that I don't really think that there's a, that there's an industry or a, or a profession that a United States Senator doesn't have some influence over.

• 1:54:45Speaker 06

  And so, you know, the question is, is whether or not.

• 1:54:52Speaker 06

  There's ever been an instance in which I've asked my dad to do anything on behalf of somebody that's employing me or paying me. And the answer to that is no. And the proof of that is this. Is that you have my digital footprint. Everybody does. The entire world has literally the entirety of my digital footprint. Every text message, every email, every phone voicemail, every photograph. Everything. And some of it, not even real. But everything for over 25 years, going back to 2000.

• 1:55:33Speaker 06

  And I challenge you to find one time in which you will find one communication from me or a communication from someone in my dad's, in a position of authority in my dad's office in which he said, you know, I need you to do this because I'm getting paid. I'm not accusing you of that. I know, but here's what I'm saying is, is that everybody else is. You may not be accusing me of that, but my response to it is this. Is that unlike anybody else, I'm the most transparent motherfucker you ever met. Right on. I mean, come on, man. Yeah. You got it all. Everybody, I'm not you. I'm not, I'm not. But you got it. They got it all. Everything. They got it all.

• 1:56:18Speaker 06

  Not only they get it all, but they spent seven years investigating me with every single alphabet agency in the country and in the world. Everybody. And what did they come up with? Is that I didn't pay my taxes on time for a two-year period of time in which I was a inveterate addict and I wrote a book about it and then paid my taxes with penalties and interest. And during that time, when I wrote a book, is that I bought a gun.

• 1:56:48Speaker 06

  That's it. Now, every other accusation, and I know where you're getting to, and not where you're getting to, it's a, I think, an incredibly fair question, particularly in a time in which there is just such open corruption, is what, you know, like, the impression that I think that the New York Post and everybody else, or even Tucker for that matter, has tried to lead people with, is that I've been drifting off the coattails of my father and my brother, and that I am, you know, like, I went back and I worked for MBNA. MBNA was the largest credit card bank in the United States, and at that time, and like any other bank, they had significant interest before Congress.

• 1:57:31Speaker 06

  I worked in the general counsel's office in MBNA.

• 1:57:34Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:35Speaker 06

  You know?

• 1:57:36Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:37Speaker 06

  I don't know what to tell you, is that they're the largest employer in the state of Delaware. I wanted to live in the state of Delaware. Now, I could have gone to work for Bank of America, or I could have gone to work for Goldman Sachs, or I could have gone to work for JP Morgan, but they have any less of a interest in...

• 1:57:57Shawn Ryan?

  It doesn't mean that any of those banks weren't major donators also to your dad's account.

• 1:58:03Speaker 06

  They all were, but by the way, what I'm saying is, is that there is a, here's another, you know, another major donor to my dad, is the trial lawyers. So if I went to work with the trial lawyers...

• 1:58:17Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:18Speaker 06

  And, and by the way, I'm not saying like, woe is me, oh my God, my choices are so limited and things like that. I'm saying this, is that, you know, the question becomes, is there any instance in which I was credibly accused of, in any way, of using my relationship with my father to influence him on behalf of a client, on behalf of somebody that I was being paid by? And I can not only say no, and hope that you believe me, but I can say, not only no,

• 1:59:02Speaker 06

  Go look, you can look at every email that I ever sent. You can look at every text message that I ever sent. So I'm not sitting here telling you and hoping that you believe me. And that's what I was talking about, I think, earlier is one of the real gifts of the last six years is, is that I got, like, I got nothing to hide, Sean. I mean, it is all out there for anybody that wants to, you know, look at it. Now, you can continue to, people can continue to lie about me. And make shit up.

• 1:59:41Shawn Ryan?

  Hunter, I just want you to know that I didn't mean any, that's not where I was going with this question.

• 1:59:46Speaker 06

  No, I didn't think you were going there. I took it there. And the reason I took it there is because I found it an enormous opportunity to talk to somebody who would, would listen about it without being defensive about it.

• 1:59:57Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I'm, I'm gonna tell you the tough questions that I'm gonna ask you before we get there. I'll tell you what they are. I'm gonna ask you some tough questions about Burisma. I'm gonna ask you some tough questions about the laptop. I'm gonna ask some tough questions about, actually, not even touch, tough questions. I'm just gonna ask you to tell the story about your brother's ex-wife and, and you. And I think we'll have a really good discussion about addiction. And I think the last tough questions will come towards the end when we get to the pardon.

• 2:00:40Shawn Ryan?

  And other than that, we're just having a discussion. And so with, with that question, what I was, what I was actually, what I was trying to get to is, your old man is, is in a, and is a position of major influence.

• 2:00:58Shawn Ryan?

  And through my journey here, just as a fucking podcaster, I can see how people use my wife to get to me. And I am anticipating on how they're going to try to manipulate my kids when they're old enough to get to me. Because I know it's gonna fucking happen. Because I'm, I'm starting to see like, How people are and and when you're in a position of influence and how people turn and and and change as that happens. And so what I'm what I'm asking you is, you know, how how would people approach you? How would they try to manipulate you to get to your dad? And how would that make you feel?

• 2:01:45Speaker 06

  Well, I think that there's uh that um at least in my experience, there's a

• 2:01:56Speaker 06

  there were two obvious ways in which um uh that would happen, but there were

• 2:02:02Speaker 06

  the the one way is is just a full frontal assault, you know, which was easy to say, like, I have no interest in speaking to you, you know, where people would come and say, hey, can you talk to your dad about X? You know, I think it could be really cool for you. You know what I mean? And uh it like, you know, this could be really great. Or um uh and that was an obvious uh uh it's an obvious no. It's not it's an immediate, at least in my experience, is like, no, like, I don't do that. And I really don't do that. And I never

• 2:02:43Speaker 06

  did do that. And and regardless of whether anybody believes me or not, um that 100% was the bright line rule in anything that I did uh in my professional career. And everybody knew that. And then the other way, however, was the much more insidious way, which I'm sure that, you know, whatever level that you're talking about in terms of your own familial relations and and uh as you become more influential or as you your influence has grown, is just more in a much more insidious way. How about people that you believed to be honest, straightforward, um uh interesting, um uh in which

• 2:03:35Speaker 06

  You figure out, though, at some point, that they have an agenda. And they have an agenda that's all about them and not about you personally, but about what you, what your wife can do for them as it relates to you. But you find that out pretty quickly. And, you know, and that's really kind of easy to figure out at some point when my dad was a United States Senator.

• 2:04:15Speaker 06

  Because I was, I was, you know, highly aware of it my whole life is that he had the capacity to do things like, for instance, getting people into the Naval Academy. The United States Senator, as you know, has the capacity that they have a, they get to choose, what is it, two candidates per year?

• 2:04:40Shawn Ryan?

  Shit, I don't know.

• 2:04:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that's how it works. And Jeremy or anybody else can explain it better. But they have a, I think every United States Senator has the, on an annual basis picks two for every service academy. They can appoint two people. And so, a lot of the things that my dad did as it relates to things like that, realizing that there's an enormous room for abuse of that, is like, he created an independent panel of people and took the decision out of his hands to be able to do that. And I just use that as an example of the ways in which, you know, and one of the rules in my family, not just applied to me, applied to anybody in my family, is that if you're,

• 2:05:26Speaker 06

  if you're working for somebody, if you're getting paid for somebody, don't come into my, don't come into my dad's office and ask anybody to do anything on behalf of those people that you're being paid to work for, regardless of how good the cause is, regardless of how righteous you may feel that it is. But that was the rule. And...

• 2:05:49Speaker 06

  And so, uh, those are the two kind of obvious ways that, um, one less obvious, one in which, you know, um, uh, there's, there's like a level of seduction that, uh, that occurs. Um, and where people, uh, sometimes even unwittingly overstep a boundary that at least that I would have or anybody else in my family would have.

• 2:06:12Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:06:12Speaker 06

  Um, uh, and then, um, uh, and then there's the, um, uh, ways in which I now only in, um, retrospect, um, have become kind of fully cognizant of that are much, much more sophisticated in terms of the ways in which, uh, you can be manipulated, um, by people, sometimes wittingly, sometimes unwittingly, sometimes, you know, uh, you know, but, but I think that there's much more sophisticated, um, ways of doing that.

• 2:06:51Shawn Ryan?

  Could you give me an example?

• 2:06:54Speaker 06

  Um, yeah, I, wanna get to Burisma?

• 2:06:59Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's get to Burisma.

• 2:07:01Speaker 06

  Okay. So, here's the, the, the, you know, I-

• 2:07:09Shawn Ryan?

  Could you start off with just describing what is Burisma?

• 2:07:12Speaker 06

  Okay.

• 2:07:13Shawn Ryan?

  What was it?

• 2:07:13Speaker 06

  But, but let's step back from Burisma, okay?

• 2:07:15Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:07:16Speaker 06

  All right. Is this, is that I leave the Commerce Department in that job, okay? And I was, um, you know, I worked at the end of the Clinton administration from 1998 to, you know, left in January of 2001. And, um, and I started, um, I started a law firm, my own law firm, and I, and I did kind of, um, advisory work for, um, as related to the, you know, what I knew about, um, uh, privacy in the new world of e-commerce. And there was an enormous amount of opportunity in that at that time because it was the dot-com bubble. And so I had a lot of people that I had gone to college with and law school with and on papers that were like killing it, you know what I mean? They, they were, you know, they started dot-com whatever and it was, you know, uh,

• 2:08:01Speaker 06

  and there was an enormous need for legal representation and understanding of the kind of regulatory framework that these new e-commerce, uh, you know-

• 2:08:12Speaker 06

  Entities were going to operate. And so I started a law firm with that in mind. And then, you know, it was the dot com bubble burst. And, um, and I had a friend, uh, uh, a Jesuit, um, uh, priest who had become president of, uh, of St. Joseph's University at the time. And, um, and they had a program in, uh, in which they got, uh, an earmark, what they called it at the time, and, uh, and for a program

• 2:08:52Speaker 06

  in which they sent their graduate education students into the poorest school in Philadelphia, in which, uh, they sent basically student teachers in to fill in the gaps in Overbrook High School, in the Overbrook School System. And they'd been doing it for years. And if you know anything about Jesuit universities, they're the oldest organizations, almost, I mean, they're, they're the, almost always the oldest community organizations in any city that you go to. So whether it's St. Joe's in Philadelphia, or whether it's been there for 120 years, or Georgetown University, which has been there for 200 years, or University of Denver, that's been there for, you know, I mean, you go down to the University of San Francisco, been there 140 years.

• 2:09:37Speaker 06

  Detroit Mercy, been there for, you know, it's the only university left inside the city, the, the city limits of Detroit.

• 2:09:45Speaker 06

  So Father, uh, the, uh, the president of the university asked me if I could help him do that. And I did. And I helped him, uh, uh, in kind of navigating, um, Congress, the House of Representatives, in terms of figuring out who his representatives were. I think it was Chaka Vata at the, at the time. And where it would go in a, in a, in an earmark. And they got the, um, I don't know what it was, uh, $50,000, um, uh, you know, a semester to be able to, um, send students to fill in the gaps in this impoverished, um, school system. And then he referred me to a, the president of Detroit Mercy.

• 2:10:28Speaker 06

  And Detroit Mercy was the only, is dental school, but it was the only dentist in the entire city of Detroit at the time. So every other dentist had moved out to the suburbs. But within the city limits of Detroit, there literally was not one dentist office. And so what they wanted to do is they wanted to take their, um, the dental school, which was serving the community at the time, free, and do mobile dental clinics so that they could do preventative care throughout these neighborhoods. And, and so I helped them to get the money for that. And then I went to, um, and then I got referred to Xavier. And Xavier University, they had a veterans program

• 2:11:08Speaker 06

  where they took disabled vets that were coming back, um, from, uh, from Iraq and Afghanistan. And that, this is like 2004 at the time. And veterans community in which they gave them a, uh, uh, they enrolled them at Xavier University, but they also had them do community work as it related to, I forget what the exact, uh, what it was, but it was for disabled vets in Xavier University. I, so I helped them get money to do that. And the list goes on and I ended up representing like, I don't know. I think it was at the height of it, like 14, 15 Jesuit universities. And that was my entire practice and I was really proud of it. Wow. Yeah. That's solid work.

• 2:11:49Speaker 06

  And then at that time, I went on the board of, uh, Amtrak. I became the, uh, vice chairman and actually got elected to be the chairman of the board of Amtrak after serving on it for over seven, six years. And, and I had by that time gone on to the board of the USUN World Food Program, which is the largest humanitarian organization in the world. Uh, serving 80 million people a day in 72 different countries. Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize. Um, uh, and I had, uh,

• 2:12:23Speaker 06

  And eventually I became chairman of that board. I was the vice chairman of the board for Truman National Security Project, which put veterans that were looking to enter political office, and we supported them, the Center for National Policy. I became an adjunct professor at Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service in the master's program. And I taught a course called "The Art of Advocacy" in outside of government. It was the idea that you could, the way in which you could use your influence to be able to do good things for good people. And so, one of the case studies that we used for that was the creation of PEPFAR and the way in which you had bipartisan support

• 2:13:07Speaker 06

  to institute a policy which eventually has saved over 25 million lives. Wow. And I taught that class for four years. And then my dad ran for president, lost. And then Obama picked him to be vice president. And in so doing, he had a group of people that I find to be really distasteful and hypocrites, but they said that I needed to give up my... Because it was, you know, I was working for these universities,

• 2:13:51Speaker 06

  but I was assisting them, both in the legal and the policy perspective, and lobbying to help them get money to do these programs. And, you know, so, you know, I was lobbyist. And so, I voluntarily, but with a lot of pressure from them, none from my dad, had to give up that business. And so, I basically started back in square one. And I started a consulting firm, because I also stepped down from the Board of Amtrak, because they said that that was a conflict of interest. And they were concerned that it was conflict of interest. So you had to shut pretty much everything down. Shut everything down. Fact that your dad just took VP. And I had to rebuild and I didn't have any savings.

• 2:14:36Speaker 06

  Three girls, all private school at the time. And, you know, don't have any money. And so, anyway, regardless, not in any different position than a lot of people. Is I had to figure it out again. And so what I did is I started consulting company. But mainly focused on infrastructure in rail. Because I knew a lot about rail by this point, having served on the board of Amtrak for as long as I did. And there was a lot of potential private projects that were going on as it would, that, you know, evolved, fizzled out over the years. But I worked, I represented a, a really old, large, midwestern infrastructure firm, like guys who actually, you know, dig the tunnels and, and build the rails.

• 2:15:20Speaker 06

  And, um, and I, uh, and I, and I advised them from, you know, projects in, anywhere from Baltimore to, you know, Beijing if they were interested. Uh, but just an understanding of how the process works. And so that was, that was what I did. I was consulting on basically infrastructure projects and things like that. And then, um, and then I began to consult, um, uh, for

• 2:15:51Speaker 06

  groups that were looking to raise capital. And so infrastructure private equity firms that were looking for institutional capital to put into the private equity firms to be able to invest in infrastructure projects, mainly all domestic. And so I partnered with someone that had a long-term experience. One of my partners got a series seven. We started an investment advisory firm.

• 2:16:14Speaker 06

  And, uh, on top of the infrastructure advisory firm. And, um, and that's what we did for, um, you know, as I taught, as I was chairman of the board of the World Food Program, as I was vice chairman of the board of the Center for National Policy, Truman National Security Project. You know, I was on the board of Catholic Charities. I was on the board of about, I think, at least a dozen, if not more, uh, you know,

• 2:16:39Speaker 06

  small, medium, large, uh, major institutions. And so, you know, I mean, for instance, on board of Amtrak, I was the chair of the corporate governance board for six year period of time. And I also took a job as the, um, As the of counsel to at the time, I think was probably the most significant law school, law firm in the in the country, which was Boychiller Flexner. And I was of counsel Boychiller Flexner, and I focused on corporate governance. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's when we come to Burisma. And the way that Burisma came to me was through a partner, a guy that I, not one on a partner

• 2:17:22Speaker 06

  as much as a what I, potential partner, who I had a great relationship and then, anyway, it doesn't matter. He just got a pardon from Donald Trump. What did he get pardoned for? No, he ripped off some, a Native American tribe and some bond deal that he did with some grifter and anyway, I mean, a huge disappointment. But anyway, he introduced me to the, to Burisma. And Burisma, this is right after the Russians, I mean, the Russians had already taken Crimea,

• 2:18:07Speaker 06

  but they had made inroads into Donbass and Donetsk. And remember, they were that that significant incursion past Crimea into the into the eastern part of Ukraine. And Burisma was the largest independent, completely independent natural gas driller in Ukraine. And Nafgas, which is probably one of the most corrupt organizations in the world, is the state-owned natural gas entity in Ukraine. And one of the things that is beyond the potential rare earth minerals, the most lucrative

• 2:18:50Speaker 06

  commodity in Ukraine, other than the the level of education of their other population, is natural gas. And Burisma was under direct threat from Putin. I mean, that's what basically why Putin wants that particular part of Ukraine also is the natural resources and also the fact that he runs pipelines through through Ukraine to to Europe. And there was a board member, who's a guy named President Kozniewski, who is the first democratically elected president of Poland, outside of Lekko Valencia,

• 2:19:33Speaker 06

  after Lekko Valencia, who wasn't democratically elected, but the, and a champion of democracy in a post-Silviet Europe, Eastern Europe. And he was on the board, and he made an argument to me that they were worth representing, because I said that I would talk to them if they wanted to talk to me about representation through Boyshiller. And there was an enormous amount of subject matter expertise in Boyshiller. There are two partners that were very steeped, and that had worked both at the CIA and the State Department, and in the last administration, that were very steeped in Ukraine, and issues

• 2:20:18Speaker 06

  as relates to Ukraine, and that's what lawyers do. And so, I said, "You should talk to them." And they did, and they, and I, and they came in through me as a, you know, the referring partner, you know, of counsel, member, you know. And in talking to them, you know, I became convinced by President Kozniewski that I should join the board. And he said, "Look, the CEO of the company is not a, is no, you know, angel, but he's not one of the bad guys. He's a guy that's under threat from the real bad guys.

• 2:21:01Speaker 06

  The Dmitri Firtash's of the world, who were controlling NAFTA gas, and, you know, was wanted up until, like, I think like, three days ago, you know, extradited by the United States for, I don't know, 47 different RICO charges and bribery, and is connected directly to, you know, to Putin, who had been basically siphoning all the money of NAFTA gas back into Russia. Those are the people that he was, that the CEO of Burisma were set up against. And they were like wolves at the gate, and trying to take over Burisma. And he said, you know, and...

• 2:21:45Speaker 06

  You, just simply by being on the board, would be a message. It would be a message. And I'll tell you what, is that it is well worth your while. And so, two things. Is that I did believe in it. I had done a Kroll report and I'd done a Nardello security report on the firm while I was at Boyshiller and working for them as an attorney for the about two-month period of time before they asked me to go on the board. And then he made a real push for me to go on the board and I made the decision to go on the board. And this idea that I didn't have any expertise, I didn't know what I was talking about, or

• 2:22:27Speaker 06

  that I didn't have any experience with bores, or that I didn't speak Ukrainian, or I didn't know about that, I mean, it's all bullshit. All complete and utter absolute bullshit, in which they try to paint me as not having as much experience as, you know, Don Jr., who just got a $695 contract from a $695 million contract for a startup private equity firm, for a startup drone company that he's, you know, with 30 employees, you know, in, like, I mean, I am almost beyond offended, you know, of the idea that certain people in that world have painted of me as being

• 2:23:08Speaker 06

  a near-dweller, you know, kind of drifter that, you know, that's kind of the board. Was it a mistake to go on the board? Yeah. Yeah. It was absolutely a mistake, not because of anything that I did that I am embarrassed about or in any way whatsoever feel conflicted about as it relates to what I did for Burisma, but because of the political position that it put us all in. They use that as the toe in the door to be able to call my family, the Biden crime family, without any evidence. The person that said that Joe Biden took a bribe to, like, you know, protect Burisma

• 2:23:52Speaker 06

  is sitting in a jail cell.

• 2:23:56Speaker 06

  Sitting in a jail cell for lying to the FBI. And meanwhile, is still is this like lingering question that people have about Burisma. So I guess before I continue to just like go on is that what do you think happened in Burisma?

• 2:24:17Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I think that, I mean, just a little more context for on Burisma. I mean, Burisma, would it be fair to say that Burisma could have potentially supplied the vast majority of natural gas to Europe?

• 2:24:35Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:24:36Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 2:24:36Speaker 06

  No, not, absolutely not. Burisma's, almost all of Burisma's natural gas supply, the production was internal to Ukraine, Ukrainian industry.

• 2:24:50Shawn Ryan?

  Which, okay, yeah, but that could have supplied, that could have been a major supply to to all of Europe, correct?

• 2:24:59Speaker 06

  Well, only if they wanted to drain, only if they wanted to drain Ukraine of the, of the vital natural gas that they need to run their economy. But yeah, the, but no, Burisma did not have the capacity, was not large enough to supply all the natural gas needs of, in any way, shape, close, even remotely, of the needs of Germany alone. The production was not nearly that big, no.

• 2:25:26Shawn Ryan?

  Could it have been though, if we built up the infrastructure? Were the, were the resources there that could have implemented that kind of infrastructure?

• 2:25:35Speaker 06

  If you built up the infrastructure of Naftegas, the state-owned company, potentially, yes, but not even remotely for Burisma, no.

• 2:25:43Shawn Ryan?

  I think that, I think that if...

• 2:25:48Shawn Ryan?

  Look, if I was the owner of a company.

• 2:25:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:25:51Shawn Ryan?

  That had that kind of, that kind of resource.

• 2:25:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:25:55Shawn Ryan?

  I would very much want the President of the United States son on my board.

• 2:25:59Speaker 06

  Oh, by the way, Sean, I don't, there's no doubt.

• 2:26:03Shawn Ryan?

  Or Vice President.

• 2:26:04Speaker 06

  Yeah, not, but by the way, not for any specific end game like that.

• 2:26:08Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:09Speaker 06

  I'm, I'm absolutely certain that that was not. I think that what he was afraid of is that he was gonna get killed. I'm positive that the CEO of, not, was not by anybody in the United States, is that he was gonna get killed by Putin.

• 2:26:22Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:23Speaker 06

  And so, he 100% thought that by bringing me on board, number one, is that I was absolutely qualified. Number two, is that I demanded that we be transparent about it. You realize I went on the board and I put out a press release, saying that I went on the board.

• 2:26:38Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:38Speaker 06

  I wasn't hiding it from anybody. And who else was on the board?

• 2:26:44Speaker 06

  And I'm absolutely certain that the, that part of the reason that he wanted me on the board was for protection. But he thought that if at least that he was associated with, with, with that name, that it would give him some protection from the, the forces of, the Russian forces writ large

• 2:27:08Speaker 06

  that were out to literally bury him.

• 2:27:11Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:27:11Speaker 06

  So I don't have any doubt about that. Was there some, all I, all I know is this, is that I served my five years on the board, no one ever asked me to do anything

• 2:27:25Speaker 06

  that my dad had any control of. In three of the years in which I was on, on the board, three and a half of the years in which I was on the board, my dad wasn't in office.

• 2:27:35Speaker 06

  I took that job because it afforded me the opportunity to do two things. Number one, is that I felt incredibly comfortable serving on a board, just from a capacity and the confidence of being able to build of, of, uh, of value, that I was being paid to do something that I had the capacity and was capable of doing. Number one. And number two, it gave me freedom, because they paid me a fucking lot of money. And my brother had just been diagnosed with a, uh, with cancer. And a incurable form of cancer. And so it gave me an enormous amount of, uh, of, uh, of space to be able to spend time and do that. And I'm not saying like I did it for my brother. I'm a saint and that's the only reason I did it. That's bullshit.

• 2:28:20Speaker 06

  I did it because it paid well and I knew where the lines were. And that's what I did.

• 2:28:27Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think that it would have been in our intelligence agencies' best interest for you to be on that board?

• 2:28:33Speaker 06

  No, I now-

• 2:28:35Shawn Ryan?

  Not that they manipulated you, just do you think it would be in their best interest to-

• 2:28:39Speaker 06

  In our, in our intelligence, it's-

• 2:28:45Speaker 06

  I think it ends up being that it was in, in a lot of people's best interest, others that, that were not mine, nor my father's.

• 2:28:52Shawn Ryan?

  So it could be-

• 2:28:53Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 2:28:53Shawn Ryan?

  That all of these things are true at the same time.

• 2:28:56Speaker 06

  What being, that, what, all of what things?

• 2:28:58Shawn Ryan?

  That intelligence agencies wanted you in there, that, that it, that the, the, that the, the, the guy that wanted protection, he wanted you in there for protection and also wheeling and dealing in the future.

• 2:29:12Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think that I-

• 2:29:13Shawn Ryan?

  I think that all these things-

• 2:29:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:29:14Shawn Ryan?

  You know, could, could, uh-

• 2:29:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:29:16Shawn Ryan?

  Be true at the same time.

• 2:29:18Speaker 06

  Yeah. Yeah, no, I, I think, I think that you're right and, and you know, I, I refrain from doing this in terms of like the what about-ism. Is that I didn't go work for the Ukrainian government. I didn't go work for, um, for instance, the Saudis. I didn't go work for the Albanians. I didn't go work for the Serbians. I didn't go work for the Emiratis. I didn't go work for the Qataris. I didn't take money for the purposes of changing US policy as it relates to weapon systems or individuals that, um, were, uh, murdered or anything like that. And I got paid a, a amount that I was transparent about what I got paid.

• 2:30:02Speaker 06

  I served my five years on the board, three of which were when my father was not in office in any shape or form. And then I left.

• 2:30:11Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company foreme of the explosion on our rig.

• 2:30:15Speaker 01

  On October 2nd.

• 2:30:16Speaker 00

  Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all keep the blame on me.

• 2:30:21Speaker 01

  Tom Cruise is.

• 2:30:22Speaker 02

  Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us out.

• 2:30:26Speaker 01

  From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.

• 2:30:28Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped going? You stop, you freeze in there, that's what.

• 2:30:32Speaker 01

  With great power comes great deniability.

• 2:30:35Speaker 03

  I'm not the first then.

• 2:30:37Speaker 01

  Digger. See the trailer online, only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a middle without parent.

• 2:30:41Speaker 03

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 2:30:44Speaker 08

  It's me, the.

• 2:30:45Speaker 03

  Priceline Negotiator.

• 2:30:47Speaker 08

  We don't need the jingle twice.

• 2:30:48Speaker 03

  What about a third time?

• 2:30:50Speaker 08

  Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights, and rental cars.

• 2:30:57Speaker 03

  Seems like they just started.

• 2:30:58Speaker 08

  Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app.

• 2:31:03Speaker 03

  Time to read the timeline.

• 2:31:04Speaker 08

  Fine. No one deals more deals than.

• 2:31:06Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 2:31:08Speaker 08

  Please stop.

• 2:31:08Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 2:31:09Speaker 08

  Touche.

• 2:31:10Speaker 03

  Priceline.

• 2:31:11Speaker 08

  Priceline.

• 2:31:12Speaker 06

  And so, whether those things could have happened as it relates to me, sure. Are those things happening not just in front of our faces, but like, like you might as well be coming and slapping us in the face? Jared Kushner is right now negotiating a peace deal with the Ukrainians and the Russians with direct interest as it relates to the energy, um, uh, uh, the, the energy interest inside of Russia and their partners, whether it's in India, the Saudi Arabia, or what's going about to happen with Nord Stream pipeline. A direct interest of which he's been taking $2.5 billion from partners to impact those changes.

• 2:31:59Speaker 06

  I served on the board for two years. You have every email that I have ever sent, every text message that I've ever sent, every single communication that I have ever had, including during that period of time. And there is not a single communication other than the one thing that they hung their hat on is a guy that was in Washington DC at the time, was the secretary to the board, said, hey Hunter, thank you. It was nice meeting your dad. And when she was walking out of a restaurant and my dad was walking into a restaurant with me and I introduced the two of them. And that's it.

• 2:32:35Speaker 06

  They started an impeachment investigation over this.

• 2:32:38Shawn Ryan?

  I think one thing, one question that a lot of people have is the 10% for the big guy remark.

• 2:32:47Speaker 06

  Not for me, and I'll tell you exactly what it was. It's from a guy named James Gilliard, along with Tony, uh, Babal- something.

• 2:32:56Shawn Ryan?

  Babalinski.

• 2:32:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, Tony Babalinski, who claims to have known me so well. You know how many times I met Tony Babalinski? Maybe four, maybe three times? In which I told him to go fuck himself? And that I wouldn't do business with him?

• 2:33:10Speaker 06

  In which they're negotiating a deal, not having, by the way, anything to do with, with Burisma. Nothing to do with Burisma. It had to do with a entity that had a, was starting a US entity of a Chinese energy firm. In which they wanted to partner and create an investment vehicle. And

• 2:33:35Speaker 06

  James Gilliard sends a email, not me, sends an email to six other people, including Tony Babalinski, in which I'm CC'd on, in which he proposes equity splits. Of which he says 10% for the big guy.

• 2:33:51Speaker 06

  And I don't know whether, who, what, what, uh, James Gilliard was, was referring to. But I know this, is that that structure, that proposed group of people, a proposed partnership to do like an energy, number one, was occurring when my dad was out of office. And was not a candidate for president. And was two years away from being vice president and his career of public service, according to everybody else, was over. So number one, who gives a fuck?

• 2:34:23Speaker 06

  Who gives a fuck? Number two, I didn't say that. And number three, it never happened.

• 2:34:30Speaker 06

  So 10% for the big guy, go fuck yourself. My dad has been, my dad has given, what, 32 years? 40 years of his tax returns. You have every tax return I've ever had.

• 2:34:46Speaker 06

  Everyone, you can go find them on the internet. I had the DOJ, I had the FBI, I had Crim Tax, I had the Oversight Committee, I had the Judiciary Committee, I had the Ways and Means Committee in both the House and the Senate, I had the US Attorney's Office in LA, in DC, in Bal- um, excuse me, in Baltimore, in Delaware, in Pittsburgh, all investigate me. Holy shit. All of them, at the behest of Donald Trump, beginning in 2017. And what did they come up with? So, you think that there is like some hidden 10% for the big guy because this motherfucker,

• 2:35:29Speaker 06

  Tony Bobulinski, who's some, you know, uh, you know, uh, wannabe, uh, you know, a soldier who tried to convince me that he was a part of the, did what you did? Was one of those guys? Maybe he is, I don't, I don't know, but all I know is every guy that I've ever met that did what you did, never told me that they did what you did. Or tried to impress upon me that they did. And that's why I told Tony to go fuck himself. They never did a deal with anybody that suggested 10% for the big guy. Which, by the way, again, occurred when my dad was neither Vice President nor President and was never gonna be in public life again, even if he was. So, I'm not burying James Gilliard.

• 2:36:10Speaker 06

  If James Gilliard sent that, and his intent was, maybe he's gonna be able to get the former Vice President of the United States to be, you know, somehow involved in this? Then why wouldn't he be able to say that? Are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? He's selling, I mean, I will be surprised if, when they leave this White House, that the copper pipes are still in the walls.

• 2:36:38Speaker 06

  I'm not joking. It is the most openly corrupt in everything that they do, Sean, is projection or confession. So I'll say it to you again, is that I believe that it was a mistake because I was very, very naive about what a viper's den Ukraine is. What an absolute, like, talk about a, like, a level of corruption that I, that I, I'm still staggering. Because they're part of a, of a kleptocracy, of a greater kleptocracy, which is, you know, I mean, what? Russia is nothing more than a, you know, a country mas, a, a, a gas station masquerading

• 2:37:19Speaker 06

  as a country, as John McCain used to say, with one person that is the, is the, is, is the ultimate Don of all Don's. And I don't mean Trump's, I mean, I mean, Don's. And that's Putin. In which, so, getting involved in that, anyway, even though it was through a private company, even though I served on the board, even though you have every communication I've ever had, even though you have testimony, thousands of hours of testimony, from anybody that's worked for my dad, under oath, by the way, under oath. So, when Tony Bobulinski, under oath, went before the Oversight Committee, what did

• 2:38:03Speaker 06

  he have to say? What did he have to say? What, what crime, under oath, did he accuse me of? He didn't. He didn't, because he was under oath. But then, you know what he did? He went on to Fox News and Tucker Carlson, and accused me of crimes. And then Devin went to, you know, to Tucker, and he literally stuck his lips around the ass of Don Jr. and Eric, and he got a, and he got a pardon out of it. And so did his partner that ripped off the, the Indian tribes, to the tune of millions and millions and millions of dollars, of which, they were absolved from having to pay back, I think it was like, close to a hundred million dollars.

• 2:38:46Speaker 06

  I don't know the exact number, so, you know, don't sue me. I really don't. And I don't know anything about, other than, is that, everybody under oath, everybody in the court of law, look, I was, I had a special prosecutor.

• 2:39:06Speaker 06

  There was a independent investigation from a special prosecutor, the only US attorney left in the United States that was appointed by Donald Trump, that my dad left in place. And when he was US attorney in Delaware, he came to the conclusion that no charges should be brought against me. And I went to a, um, uh, a, uh, we came to a resolution in which I was going to plead guilty to two misdemeanors of failing to file my taxes on time, because I'd already paid them back with penalties and interest. I paid over $800,000 in interest and penalties. Because during 2016 and 17, or 15 and 16, I forget, because the years, is that I literally

• 2:39:51Speaker 06

  was out of my mind, and I thought that it was being taken care of me, whatever the reason, I didn't pay my taxes. And when I figured out that I did in 2019, when I came out of recovery, the first thing that I did, I went to an accountant and I said, um, you know, I gotta figure out my taxes. And they gave me the, uh, the number at the end of the day, and as soon as I got the number of what I owed with penalties and interest, I went to the United States government, and I borrowed the money, and I, and I, and I sent them the check. Four years later, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, five years later, three days before the statute of limitations ran, they charged me.

• 2:40:32Speaker 06

  After coming to a negotiated settlement with me, and a plea deal, they blow up the plea deal, because MAGA went nuts, and they decided to charge me with seven counts of tax evasion that would have resulted in over 35 years in prison, for taxes that I paid with penalties and interest. I can't find one single case as precedent, in which someone similarly situated was ever charged. Roger Stone didn't pay taxes for, I think, like, eight years, and had secret bank accounts. At the same time, secret foreign bank accounts, I believe, and I'm like, I don't know, Roger, so, you know, again.

• 2:41:17Speaker 06

  And they came to a settlement. They never, the United States government never informed me that I was being audited. They never audited me.

• 2:41:28Speaker 06

  I informed them. We called them and said, hey, we can't find the transcripts my accountant did for 2017 and 18, I forget what the two years are. They're 17 and 18 because I went into 19. And said, and they said, huh. And then we figured out that my accountant had done the taxes and sent them to an office that was empty and then he died, my accountant. So I got a new accountant in LA when I came out of my two years of like, you know, my crack addiction. And I took care of the wreckage of the past and I took responsibility for what I did.

• 2:42:11Speaker 06

  And that's why they decided that they were not going to charge me because they couldn't find any criminal intent in what I did or any way in which I was truly trying to evade my taxes because I came to them. But they blew up the plea deal and they not only charged me with that, but then they charged me with a 922 G3 violation that's never been used against anybody except me other than people that are go and purchase a gun in the commission of a violent felony in which they also find that they can show that they were addicted to a substance or user of a Schedule I substance. Shit. Ever.

• 2:42:54Speaker 06

  How many people that you know smoke pot and own guns regularly? A lot. A lot, right? They're all in violation of 922 G3, every single one of them. They charged me with three different charges under that, again, 35 years in prison. Three different charges. No, I challenge anybody out there, find anyone else. And by the way, the Supreme Court is about to overturn the constitutionality of 922 G3 based on Second Amendment and Bruin and the case on money.

• 2:43:28Speaker 06

  And so it's not, it's not gonna even be, I think, constitutionally viable within the next four months.

• 2:43:35Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:43:36Speaker 06

  But they took that and they charged me with it. Now, how fair do you think that that is? When the only way that they became informed of the fact that I purchased a gun is through a group message from the gun shop owner, Don Jr., and a former state police officer that heard a story about me throwing away, uh, someone throwing away a gun that I'd purchased 10 days before, that I owned for 10 days in a lockbox in my truck that was never loaded and never fired.

• 2:44:10Speaker 06

  Five years later.

• 2:44:12Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:44:12Speaker 06

  Five years later.

• 2:44:16Shawn Ryan?

  And that's how that came about?

• 2:44:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:44:18Shawn Ryan?

  So a conversation with three people?

• 2:44:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, according to the, um, uh, uh, there's this incredible investigative reporter in, um, that like dug up all of this stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Incredible, they put it on some right-wing blog. And then the US Attorney came to it, and you know what the US Attorney did? Is they came to the right decision, uh, in after three years of that investigation, in which they'd been investigating me for over five years. And they came to first a non-prosecution agreement, and then it was called a diversion agreement, saying technically, they believe that I violated the law. So I would agree not to buy a gun and-

• 2:45:03Shawn Ryan?

  They, they spent three years investigating whether you

• 2:45:08Shawn Ryan?

  did any drugs when you bought that weapon?

• 2:45:10Speaker 06

  They never found that I did drugs when I did that weapon. You know what they did? They put me in front of a jury and they took my book and they played the audio version of my book in which I talk about my addiction during that period of time.

• 2:45:29Speaker 06

  And they just mashed it all together. Now, 922G3, under any standard, is a state-of-mind question, right? Are you addicted to? Are you a user of a controlled substance?

• 2:45:44Speaker 06

  Well, I may have been an addict in the past. Am I an addicted to or a user of a controlled substance? Right now, if I went to your range and fired a gun, would I be in violation of 922G3? No. No? According to their standard, I am. And I will forever be. Have you had, or do you have friends that have struggled with alcohol? Or, or, um, or illegal substances? That have owned guns during that period of time? Yes, I do. And do you know people personally that may have had substance abuse problems? That owned guns at that time?

• 2:46:28Speaker 06

  And do you believe that the federal government should have the right to put them in jail for 10 years? If on a form, they said when they bought the weapon, that they truly believed that they had overcome their addiction? Because no addict believes that they're an addict when they're not using. But it didn't matter. They wanted to get me for something, so they got me for something. And what they did is they put, they, they embarrassed me. They spent the entire trial. And, um, uh, for instance, you said that you wanted to talk about the relationship that I have with my sister-in-law. Like, my God, I'll tell you what, they put her on the stand. Talk about my addiction.

• 2:47:13Speaker 06

  It was fucking awful. It was awful. And one of the most difficult things for me in my entire life is how much I fucked that up. I mean, two people in a state of grief, out of their fucking minds, me in particular, thinking that they had found the solution to, um, uh, to the, to the bleak, uh, you know, the positions that they found themselves in, in the, the thing that they loved the most. And that's all I can say. It was an enormous mistake and I take full responsibility for it. And I am beyond embarrassed what I put my family through. Beyond embarrassed what I put my family through. But in the moment, it was not some like sick whatever.

• 2:47:58Speaker 06

  It was literally grasping for some, like for life, for grasping for something. Grasping for some chance at like, at, at, at living again. But you know what? Like... You judge me? Not you.

• 2:48:14Speaker 06

  Just anybody? Do you've never known anybody to be able to go through like a grief like that? And, and it is fucked up. You do fucked up things. I certainly did, and I've been paying for them. I've been paying for them for a long time now. And I'm done. I'm done killing myself over it.

• 2:48:37Shawn Ryan?

  I think that there is a side to what happened there that nobody's heard. And that's why I want to bring that up, because I think that

• 2:48:49Shawn Ryan?

  I think that is part of your redemption. I think people need to hear that.

• 2:48:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:48:56Speaker 06

  Maybe.

• 2:48:59Speaker 06

  Maybe.

• 2:48:59Shawn Ryan?

  Because the way it's described in there is definitely not the way it's described in the media.

• 2:49:05Speaker 06

  No.

• 2:49:06Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and um

• 2:49:10Shawn Ryan?

  you know, without injecting my opinion on anything, I think it's going to change a lot of opinions. When they hear, when they hear, you know, when they hear all of the details, when they hear the story, when they hear why, when they hear what you were going through, when they hear what she was going through, it just paints, it's just, it's just, it's a different picture than, than what has been portrayed through the media.

• 2:49:36Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 2:49:38Speaker 06

  You know?

• 2:49:40Speaker 06

  And I will, I mean, I, we can talk about it, but I will tell you this. Is that um in many ways, part of it's not my story to tell and the level of pain

• 2:49:54Speaker 06

  that um I, it in a that that caused my family and, and by the way, and it still does in terms of um is something that is really, really, really, really um

• 2:50:15Speaker 06

  It's tough, but I can tell you this.

• 2:50:20Speaker 06

  It was not, um, uh... I almost don't feel like I owe... I understand what you're saying. Is owe these people that judge, think that they have a judgment about it, an explanation in any way, other than this. Is it two people desperate to find a way out? And it, and, and clung to each other as being the nearest thing to the thing that they both valued the most in the world and lost. And that's the answer to that. And, and...

• 2:51:02Speaker 06

  And it was an attempt to

• 2:51:07Speaker 06

  keep something alive that was permanently dead.

• 2:51:13Speaker 06

  And, uh... And just a gigantic miscalculation about the way in which that would impact the, the, the ecosystem of the rest of, of my family.

• 2:51:25Speaker 06

  And, um...

• 2:51:30Speaker 06

  And I am, uh...

• 2:51:35Speaker 06

  All I know is this, is that, um...

• 2:51:43Speaker 06

  It is not, um, uh...

• 2:51:48Speaker 06

  It has been harder on everybody else than it has been on me. And, uh...

• 2:51:58Speaker 06

  But I think that we're, you know,

• 2:52:02Speaker 06

  in a place that's very different now, in which been a lot of healing. But, you know,

• 2:52:11Speaker 06

  uh... I take full accountability for that.

• 2:52:16Shawn Ryan?

  Is Bo's death what sent you down?

• 2:52:20Shawn Ryan?

  The path of addiction?

• 2:52:21Speaker 06

  Hmm. I think that what it did is it sent me down the path of addiction. Anything, I think, I don't know, if you, your experience as it relates to addiction to people in your life, your own life, is that you don't need much of an excuse to use. Um, you know, it could be sunny, it could be raining. Um, you could be up, you could be down. Uh.

• 2:52:48Speaker 06

  But what Bo's death did do to me was it sent me down a path of nihilism that I'd never experienced before, in which nothing mattered. And, uh, uh, and when it all fell apart. And in the immediate aftermath of Bo's death, there was a sense of real, um, purpose. But then, um, my marriage of twenty-two years, um, began to falter. And I ended up on my own, uh, for the first time in my life. Uh, literally, uh, in terms of living alone for the first time in my life. Because remember, I, I, I left, went to college. Um, did Jesuit Volunteer Corps, got married, had a baby, had two more.

• 2:53:32Speaker 06

  And, you know, and, uh, and, uh, and I, in that period of time, directly after Bo's death, is that I didn't have the availability of my, my dad, uh, for the first time in my life. And that he was so, like me. I mean, grief is a, is a solitary journey in many ways, as much as you try to cling to people. I think one of the reasons that people, uh, um, when they lose a, a child or, you know, a couple, is that they, uh, they sometimes lose each other. And, and for, for a period of time there, I felt like I'd lost my dad. I felt like I'd lost the entire structure of my existence.

• 2:54:14Speaker 06

  And, um, and so I'm, you know, and I grasped towards one thing that was, um, yeah, and, and, and not in a, in a nefarious, purious, purient way in any way, to, to someone that, that was the nearest thing to what my brother was. And we, and we, I did grasp for each other. And we, and, and I, and, and my addiction completely, one hundred percent fucked that up. And, um, and, uh, it was awful. And, um,

• 2:54:50Speaker 06

  So I do know that Beau's death didn't make me an addict. But, um, but by my own actions, by my, uh, by the circumstances that I found myself in, by the depths to which I didn't think that there was a way out. It certainly was a factor, what sent me down a rabbit hole that I'd never gone before, which was completely wanting to disappear from the face of the earth. It was awful.

• 2:55:33Speaker 06

  You know, I think that people have this vision of, uh, you know, that it's kind of funny when Marjorie Taylor Greene like shows pictures of me and, you know, naked and, you know, by the way, and I understand of which is like, aren't selfies, people taking pictures of me passed out in a bathtub with a crack pipe, you know, I wasn't taking pictures of myself, you know, remotely while I was, you know, passed out. And, you know, um, but whatever the case may be is I don't do anything but cry when, when I think about those times, not for anybody but myself. I mean, it was, it was, it was truly demoralizing.

• 2:56:14Speaker 06

  I mean, I am, uh, uh, what people I don't think fully comprehend about addiction, if they're not the direct addict, that sometimes can take you to a place in which all you're doing is thinking about getting high or thinking about how you're gonna get high, thinking about how you're gonna cover up getting high and thinking about how you're gonna come down from getting high. And then it becomes just this round the clock thing in which it's not even about getting high. It's about not dying. It's literally about the feeling that if I don't, if I don't, I cannot, I cannot get up from this bed unless somebody hands me a drink in order for my body to function.

• 2:56:59Speaker 06

  And, um, and that's the level to which I, um, I found myself for a long period of time. I mean, relatively in anyone's life, like the fact that I didn't die, I believe is a miracle.

• 2:57:17Speaker 06

  How many times do you think you were close to death? Dozens. Dozens, whether it was by, you know, like finding my places in which people were pulling guns on me to,

• 2:57:31Speaker 06

  to putting, one time I woke up in a,

• 2:57:35Speaker 06

  you know, face down in a pool, you know.

• 2:57:41Speaker 06

  And I don't even remember that, but that's what they told me. You know, I,

• 2:57:50Speaker 06

  by anybody's standards, was,

• 2:57:58Speaker 06

  I mean, I talk about it- Very descriptive. Very descriptive, in the book, and the reason is, is you know, people kind of make fun of me about that, and when I talk about, like, I searched the carpet for drugs. And the point of this story is not that it's some fucking funny story for you to laugh about, and you know, Laura Ingraham to go, "Hi, hi, hi, he's a crackhead," and you know, Donnie Jr. and you know, these guys are all fucking tough guys. That, you know, like, you know, because they go to UFC fights.

• 2:58:28Speaker 06

  I tell those stories because, you know what, I think, I know, I'm positive, that people write me and say, "Thank you. Thanks for sharing that." Because in the program that I come from, is that the one thing that keeps you trapped is your secrets. Is the things that you did in the dark, that nobody else knows about, except the people that you were in that motel room with. Like crawling around on the floor for hours, looking for crumbs of crack cocaine. Till your hands and your fingernails get bloody.

• 2:59:13Speaker 06

  If I can tell you that in front of everybody and write a book about it, and my dad's the President of the United States, and I came from a place of incredible privilege, what I'm trying to tell you is that you have nothing to be ashamed of if you then figured out how to get clean and sober. All I have is respect for you. Doesn't mean that I don't think that you should be held accountable for the shit that you did that was stupid while you were high, but I want to tell you something, is that if you were me, if you were me, you know, calling through the cut down in, you know, at 3:00 a.m. in downtown L.A.,

• 2:59:57Speaker 06

  you know, with a gun to your head, begging somebody to sell you crack, and you made it out of that? Fucking more power to you, and fuck anybody that fucking would make fun of you for it. You can't talk to anybody about it. Fuck you. And fuck all those people that judge over it. You can judge me for the decisions that I made and for the fuck-ups, but I've been paying the price, and I take responsibility for those things.

• 3:00:40Speaker 06

  And I fully, fully have been transparent about it for the pure purpose is that we are only as sick as our secrets, man. And I know that what the gift that has been given to me is that I don't have to, I don't have any more secrets. Not a one. Not a one. Wow.

• 3:01:15Shawn Ryan?

  I live the same fucking way. I was not expecting to like you this much.

• 3:01:23Shawn Ryan?

  Uh, I mean, dude, I just, um.

• 3:01:26Speaker 06

  We got a lot more time. I still can fuck, I can fuck that up. I promise.

• 3:01:29Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I can, I just, I mean, I'm not fucking around, man. I live by that. I have talked about damn near everything publicly, and I don't have any secrets left.

• 3:01:41Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:01:41Shawn Ryan?

  But I've talked about how fucked up I was on my cocaine addiction, on my benzos, on my sleeping pills, on my booze, on my women eyes, all of it. It's all fucking out there.

• 3:01:50Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:01:50Shawn Ryan?

  And you know, when I realized

• 3:01:54Shawn Ryan?

  is every, every fucking skeleton in that closet that you release out into the world, it's like freeing part of your soul, man.

• 3:02:04Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:02:04Shawn Ryan?

  Because what are you gonna do? Come at me? I don't give a fuck. It's all out there.

• 3:02:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:02:11Shawn Ryan?

  I got nothing left to lose, buddy.

• 3:02:13Speaker 06

  And by the way, it doesn't mean that you're fucking proud of it.

• 3:02:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 3:02:17Speaker 06

  What it means is, is that you're free of it.

• 3:02:20Shawn Ryan?

  You're free of it, and it also sets an example for others to follow. And just like you're said, just like you just said, you know,

• 3:02:29Shawn Ryan?

  coming from where you've come from, with, with, with, with your dad being the president of the United States, I mean, that is a, that is a tremendous amount of shame because of the expectations that have been put on you by society because of the, because of the, the, the, the position that your family members are in.

• 3:02:48Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:02:51Shawn Ryan?

  And so to come out and to have the courage to say, yeah, I fucked this up. This is what happened. This is the description. This is how I saw it, and this is how I lived. And to be that open about it, I mean, then.

• 3:03:04Shawn Ryan?

  I know how much courage that is. Actually, maybe I don't because I don't have any family members in that type of a position. But I mean, but I'm in an influential position and to do to to to come clean on all of those things. And I mean, shit, just the other day I had to do something where I fuck something up and I talk shit about somebody that I a group of people that I shouldn't have. I had to come clean. I did it. Also did the same damn thing to Kamala Harris who I couldn't fucking stand and I did a public apology. Anyways, addictions and and all of that, all of that, all of that stuff and how bad it gets and scrouching around for drugs and going to get more and the thrill of finding it and all. I mean, I could fucking get I could

• 3:03:49Shawn Ryan?

  I could go for days about that stuff. But um, and maybe we will. But I do want to commend you, you know, for coming clean and and and being that open about it because most people will never see that kind of courage.

• 3:04:04Speaker 06

  I really appreciate that, man. And I really mean it. It uh, I know that you're surprised by that, but coming from me, that means a lot. Thank you.

• 3:04:13Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome.

• 3:04:14Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:04:14Shawn Ryan?

  We'll take a break.

• 3:04:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, man.

• 3:04:19Shawn Ryan?

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• 3:05:03Shawn Ryan?

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• 3:05:47Shawn Ryan?

  Want to stay up to date on all things SRS? You bet your ass you do. Our newsletter brings you the latest SRS news and critical updates. Get instant alerts on the newest episodes, never miss a beat. Exclusive intel briefs from counterterrorism expert Sarah Adams. You've seen her many times on the show. She's going to give unfiltered insights on global terrorist activity. For Patreon exclusives, you're going to get epic range days with me and damn near every guest that's come in the studio. You're also going to get behind the scenes content and guest updates. You're going to get first dibs on new merch drops and limited edition items that will never be sold again.

• 3:06:29Shawn Ryan?

  Plus, exclusive offers from our partners you won't find anywhere else. So subscribe to the Vigilance Elite newsletter right now.

• 3:06:44Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Hunter, we're back from the break.

• 3:06:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:06:47Shawn Ryan?

  Getting ready to dive into the life of a crack addict.

• 3:06:51Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 3:06:52Shawn Ryan?

  Mine was coke.

• 3:06:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:06:53Shawn Ryan?

  But I'll dive in there with you. And, um...

• 3:06:56Speaker 06

  Same thing, just a little bit different.

• 3:06:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. Well, you started with coke, right?

• 3:07:02Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, I mean, basically, but the, um, when I really, uh, I went, uh, I went straight to crack when I, like, decided that I was gonna drop off the face of the earth.

• 3:07:18Shawn Ryan?

  Go full time?

• 3:07:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:07:20Shawn Ryan?

  Did you do, did you, I'm just curious, did you partake in any drug use as a child?

• 3:07:26Speaker 06

  Uh, yeah, I, I, I, you know, I tried everything, but I didn't, nothing stuck. Nothing stuck like alcohol.

• 3:07:34Shawn Ryan?

  Nothing?

• 3:07:34Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, I had tried coke, I, you know, I, you know, the one drug that I'm 100% certain that I'm incapable of handling?

• 3:07:48Shawn Ryan?

  Which one?

• 3:07:48Speaker 06

  Pot.

• 3:07:49Shawn Ryan?

  Really? Are you serious?

• 3:07:53Speaker 06

  I mean, like a great, like a, like a great addict is like, I am absolutely certain of it. Because after 400 failed attempts.

• 3:08:05Speaker 06

  Curled in a ball, like, you know, hugging my, um, you know, on a, on the tile floor in a bathroom. It literally makes, it, it, it is the, it's one of the only drugs I clearly cannot in any way metabolize without it literally turning me into a, a complete and utter incompetent.

• 3:08:23Shawn Ryan?

  I just turned into a total fat ass on that. Can't stop fucking eating.

• 3:08:27Speaker 06

  I mean, I literally become so anxiety ridden. It's really.

• 3:08:32Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that happens too. My friend Eddie Gallagher posted a diagram of a joint once. And it was basically like, you know, the first little bit is, it's all good. The next little bit, maybe a little bit of paranoia, the next little bit, oh shit, the cop. And then the last little bit is like, the CIA is fucking coming to get.

• 3:08:54Shawn Ryan?

  That was like, damn dude, that's like right on the money. But, you know, I don't, I don't want to make like a joke out of the whole situation, but you know, I, but sometimes you kind of have to, that's just how you get through it. And, um, at least for me, I've got really dark, fucking dark sense of humor. But, you know, with, with, with, with, with my addiction, I, I,

• 3:09:17Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I was, I was a boozer since high school, but I didn't do any hard drugs until my 30s.

• 3:09:25Speaker 06

  Yeah. I mean, I, I had tried, it was, there was no real, um, you know, prevalent availability. And, you know, I, I played sports and so, you know, football season, you know, we tried not to even drink and, you know, and high school and, um, and I, uh, but I tried cocaine when I was in high school. And then not throughout college, uh, I dabbled, uh, maybe in, uh, but it wasn't really around, it was almost, my problem was alcohol.

• 3:10:04Speaker 06

  And, um,

• 3:10:06Speaker 06

  And it remained alcohol until I walked into that park, which I describe in the book is, you know, I left a, I was in a, an outpatient program, which I was committed to, and I had relapsed. And, um, and I was in the middle of a divorce and, uh, and separated. And I had spent, uh, I'd done everything to try to get back. And I'd gone to, um, uh, like forty five days of a inpatient program. And then I did, uh, about three months of a sober coach, in which I blew into a, um, Rethalizer.

• 3:10:49Speaker 06

  Rethalizer that took your picture whenever the sober coach would call, um, with the commitment, uh, with, uh, uh, that if I failed it, that I would go back into, uh, into treatment. And, um, and I did that. And then that wasn't good enough for, um, for whatever reason. Um, and so then I committed to doing an outpatient program, which was, uh, five days a week. And, um, you know, uh, about five hours a day from like eight to two. And, um, and I, and I relapsed and, um,

• 3:11:30Speaker 06

  and I told them that I relapsed and they wanted me to take a, um, uh, uh, they, they wanted me to, to pee in a cup. Um, and I said, look, I relapsed, I used cocaine and, but I drank primarily and I used cocaine. But that's what I did. I'm telling you. The, I didn't want it as any part of a record in which, what people don't fully understand is the kinda, the, uh,

• 3:12:00Speaker 06

  It's the the conundrum that some addicts find themselves in in in treatment facilities that are also facing like legal issues or divorces or things like that is that it's not protected by HIPAA. So you can go into rehab and be in the middle of a divorce and have all of that of those records. Gotcha. That can be subpoenaed. Or if you're in a civil case, I mean, like so many, which is a real, um, uh, I think oversight on the part of people as it relates to privacy and getting people to be as honest as possible. And so I was like, look, I'm telling you, I relapsed. I mean, what's the difference if you have a, they said, well, you can't

• 3:12:41Speaker 06

  come back if you don't take the test. And I said, but I'm admitting to you what I did. And, um, they said, no, it's just our policy unless you unless you submit to the test, you can't come back. So I walked out and, um, and it was in downtown DC and I went over to a park, Lincoln Park. And, um, you know, not far from the White House. Uh, my dad, at this point, was not in office or anything, but I, uh, it was between the apartment that I was running in Shaw and, uh, and, um, and I saw somebody in the park that I

• 3:13:24Speaker 06

  had recognized from literally years and years ago, but she was kind of a famous person. It was bicycles. Everybody called her bicycles. And, um, and I said, can you give me crack? And she did, you know, and, uh, when I say she she was a kind of a very well-known, like, uh, uh, homeless, semi-homeless, kind of, um, uh, uh, drug user in the like bicycled up and down. Like a character almost. Yeah, she was a total character. Everybody knew her. And, um, not everybody didn't know her. I knew her, knew of her.

• 3:14:05Speaker 06

  And, um, you know, five months later, she was, you know, uh, had the keys to my apartment and, and, uh, we'd become, uh, using buddies for an extended period of time. And, um, uh, and it, it's a, you know, uh, it's, it's everything that they say that it is, um, and nobody fully, um, uh, I think captures the, the power of crack cocaine, nor explains it correctly.

• 3:14:47Speaker 06

  It's all so wrapped up in, in a lot of, um, prejudice and, um, and bias based upon kind of the racial profile that people that, you know, some of them are crack addicts. And, you know, at least if you're from my generation, uh, in the nineties, and which if, you know, was introduced to the streets and just tore communities apart. And the thing that truly tore communities apart was not necessarily the addiction, it was the response to it. And, um, and so, anyway, long story short, is that's, you know, I, I actively sought out the thing that I thought was the most destructive thing that I could do to myself at that moment in time, beyond physically harming myself.

• 3:15:30Shawn Ryan?

  What, what was it that, what was it that took you to rehab? What was it that made you want to get better? Like, what was the realization?

• 3:15:40Speaker 06

  Finally, in the, at the, at the end? I mean, that was, that was in 2000, uh, I think, what, I get my years a little bit mixed up, but that was two, like, that was a year after Poe's death, 2016, where I basically stayed sober and, and attempted to stay sober for that year, year period, in which I was under the care of somebody, a professional. And the thing that wanted me to, to stay sober and clean is my family, is that, you know, I have, I, my, um, uh, uh, my three oldest daughters are, my, uh, are...

• 3:16:19Speaker 06

  Like they were my whole world. And um, and, and they, and I was an enormous, you know, I was like a constant present in her life because for the vast majority of it, I was clean and sober. And, and I was, and I, and I was not a user or drinker in that I would ever kind of do it around them. I don't think that there are more than maybe a handful of times, and I can't speak for them. All I can say is this, is that I was a very present parent. And then all of a sudden I was gone.

• 3:16:59Speaker 06

  All of a sudden I was completely unavailable. And I don't think there's anything more traumatic that you can do than that. And, and so to be there and then not be there. Have you been able to redeem yourself to your, for? Oh, yeah. To your daughters for that? I, I, I'm not, I can't be the judge of whether I've redeemed myself, but all I know is that we have a very, very, very close relationship. And, but there, that, and again, it's literally, I think the worst thing that I could possibly do is speak for anybody else that has suffered because of somebody else's addiction.

• 3:17:42Speaker 06

  That's one of the things that I'm 100% certain is, is I never want to do. But all I can say is that, you know, it is a, it is a constant work in progress because of the fact that I'm bound and determined to at least make up for any of the, of all of that lost time, that neglect. Cause I don't, and I, and I don't.

• 3:18:23Speaker 06

  I know this, I know my daughters love me deeply. And have been there for me. And are beyond Melissa. The singular thing that made me think that there was something worth living for. And, um, but, you know, caused a lot of pain, you know? Who do you think you hurt the most? Beyond myself? Um,

• 3:19:08Speaker 06

  definitely, um, my daughters. Yeah. And again, the reason being is that they were older, but, um, they had just lost, um, their Uncle Bo to them, um, was everything. Um, and, um, I mean, he was, he was as present in their lives as he was in mine. And, you know, my brother was not perfect, but he was about as close to perfect as you can be, as a human being. And I really mean that.

• 3:19:50Speaker 06

  And I, and I challenge anybody that knew my brother that didn't feel the same way, almost universally. And I know that people talk about people in death as if they are, um, something more than they were. But in my brother's case, I couldn't say enough things that could fully describe what an extraordinary human being he was. And when I graduated from law school, my brother moved in with me and my wife and my two daughters. And he took the third floor of the house that we renovated, um, this old farmhouse. And, um, and he just was never present in, in their lives also. So the one thing that was probably the most, um,

• 3:20:35Speaker 06

  not intentionally cruel, but the, uh, uh, cruel is that they lost their Uncle Bo and then they lost me at the same time.

• 3:20:47Speaker 06

  And I became so wrapped up and selfish in my own grief. And, um, and I don't think that there is, is it that there's anything that I ever can do to make up for that. Um, and so those are some of the things. Now, do I believe that they've forgiven me for that? Absolutely. I mean, I, I, I know they adore me and I really mean that and I, I know that, but, but it's not up for me to be able to determine whether I've ever made up for what I, um, that, that, that level, that deep, deep level of hurt that children more than anybody

• 3:21:28Speaker 06

  ends up experiencing for a parent that, um, that has suffered from addiction.

• 3:21:34Shawn Ryan?

  Do you think they're gonna watch this?

• 3:21:36Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah.

• 3:21:40Shawn Ryan?

  What would you say to them right now?

• 3:21:42Speaker 06

  Oh, everything I've already said to their face is, to them personally. I mean, I, I, I call my, I call them almost every day. Finnegan and I have been in a little bit of a fight about that, but, yeah, but, um, is that they are each in, uh, in their own way extraordinary people that I am, uh, immeasurably proud of. And they have, uh, um, they have been a, a greater source of strength to me than they will ever fully appreciate. Yeah.

• 3:22:18Shawn Ryan?

  I bet they'll love to hear that.

• 3:22:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. I tell them all the time and then they, you know, and maybe they call me back, maybe they don't. Their daughters, and then I get, my dad calls me, he goes, have you talked to Maisie? You talked to Maisie? I'm like, Jesus Christ, Dad. Yeah, I tried, I tried her. Well, I called her, I got her, I got her on the phone. The only thing that makes me mad about my dad is he's an even better grandfather than he is a, even a parent. But yeah, they're, they're, they're extraordinary women. And, you know, one of the things about, you know, the...

• 3:22:57Speaker 06

  Like all of this is, um,

• 3:23:02Speaker 06

  you know, I sometimes get down and be like, what the fuck, these people are awful and they're ruining my life and they're doing this and, you know, and, and, um, and I think, like,

• 3:23:18Speaker 06

  this isn't hard on me, it's them.

• 3:23:23Speaker 06

  How hard is it on them? How hard is it for them to walk into work as grown women?

• 3:23:32Speaker 06

  And, um, uh, working in New York City in an office building? And everybody know who you are? And your dad's on the, um, you know, for no apparent reason other than just to shame me, on the front cover of the New York Post with a crack pipe dangling out with shirtless with a woman standing behind him. And then again, the next day, and then again, the next day, and then again, the next day. And, um,

• 3:24:01Speaker 06

  and so I always, always, uh, or at least when I, when I start to feel, um, sorry for myself, be like, fuck, like, god damn, how lucky am I?

• 3:24:19Speaker 06

  How lucky am I? That they still pick up the phone?

• 3:24:26Speaker 06

  Never stopped loving me.

• 3:24:29Speaker 06

  I don't deserve that. Nobody deserves that.

• 3:24:34Speaker 06

  But I have it and, um,

• 3:24:40Speaker 06

  and it's an incredible thing.

• 3:24:45Shawn Ryan?

  It's a good boy to love.

• 3:24:49Speaker 06

  Yeah, it's a, um,

• 3:24:55Speaker 06

  But God, you know, I still fuck up. I still don't do it the right way. I still let people down. I mean, the only thing that's different now in my life is that I truly don't start from a position of what's in it for me first, in terms of what can I get to alleviate this pain. Like, I, like, um, uh, I at least know that, uh, that, uh,

• 3:25:29Speaker 06

  that I'm not ashamed of the mistakes that I make today. Do you know what I mean? Because I'm, I, um, or I am, I'm certain that I'm, uh, trying to be the best person I can be, and I'm doing my best at it. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm trying every day. And I know that I'm failing, but it's not, you know, I'm, I'm at the same time, I'm comfortable with who I am, and I don't think, I think a lot of my life, although I wouldn't admit it, is, I felt lesser than. Um, for whatever reason. I don't know what, what, you know what I mean? Like, I just, like, you know, uh,

• 3:26:16Speaker 06

  Lesser than who? Anybody. Didn't matter. Felt alone in a crowd, you know? Um, and I felt like I, I, uh, like, for instance, like, with art. Like, I wanted to be an artist, you know? Now, I ended up going to law school and, and, you know, having a pretty successful career and doing the things that I, that I did, but, you know, like, I just never, you know, like, I felt like, well, I'm not good enough. You know, I don't want to show people, you know, you know, my stupid, you know, uh, you know, I mean... I don't know, whether it was my poetry, or my paintings, or my, you know,

• 3:26:58Speaker 06

  but that's the person that I wanted to be, and I didn't have the courage when I was that age to do it. And I had to be completely, utterly broken, humiliated, and dehumanized, in order for me to say to myself, fuck everybody else, just be who the fuck you are. You know, I mean, everybody tells me to stop using the fucking F-word so much, but fuck you. You know what I mean? I get told that all the time, too. You know, it's like, I don't know, like, I don't have to, I don't have to, um, I don't have to be anything except exactly who I am. And I don't owe you any explanation, but I owe myself

• 3:27:43Speaker 06

  to be radically honest with when I fuck up, and what is my responsibility, and when I should say sorry to somebody. But the one thing I know about, anybody that's ever come into, um, you know, into recovery, decided that they gotta stop using, or they gotta stop drinking, and, you know, a lot of people can drink and use responsibly. But anybody that I know that decided not to, they didn't come in on a fucking winning streak, man. They didn't decide to stop drinking because, you know, things were so good. But when they put that down, and what are they gonna, what are they gonna, you know, what fills that hole?

• 3:28:25Speaker 06

  And for so long in my recovery, I didn't have, I didn't have anything to fill that hole, because I wasn't, I, I didn't feel whole. I didn't feel like I was being honest with myself, about who I wanted to be, or, you know, anything. What got you there? The complete and utter, uh, you know, destruction of my ego. Psychedelics? No, I think that the, um, I think that everything was a little bit of a step towards that, but ultimately, at the end of the day, the gift that was given to me, was given to me by the most horrendous people in the world, is the people that, you know, stole my, my digital images,

• 3:29:07Speaker 06

  and put them in the New York Post, and Miranda Devine used me to, you know, to cash her checks, and, and, you know, and the Daily Mail, you know, I mean, like... All of that, the worst humiliation I think that in a modern digital age.

• 3:29:22Shawn Ryan?

  That's what you mean by destruction of the ego?

• 3:29:24Speaker 06

  Yes, completely, because you have to decide, is that you? And if it isn't, then who are you?

• 3:29:35Speaker 06

  Then who the fuck are you? And you realize is that I, I used to, that I in the past would think,

• 3:29:46Speaker 06

  I think that, that a lot of addicts do this, like I watch you, okay? And I, and I would, and I would, um, and I would put you on this pedestal. Okay? Somebody that I respected, somebody that served, somebody that put themselves physically in harms way on behalf of other people.

• 3:30:07Speaker 06

  Somebody who had the discipline and the courage to do the things that you did. And so that's your, your outward persona. And I would, and I would compare myself to you. And I would think, I'm never gonna live up to that. And, um, and, and then something in your life happens like

• 3:30:31Speaker 06

  they completely dehumanize you through, you know, I mean, by the way, imagine if I was a woman. Imagine if I was Ivanka Trump, and I know that sounds really stupid, but just say, say they released one, you know, nude selfie of, of, how crazy would people fucking go about the violation of privacy that is? How insane would they go, rightfully so?

• 3:30:57Speaker 06

  But I was the crack addict, degenerate son of the former vice president of the United States, and I was fair game in the world. And, and I had a decision that I had to make is when I would think, I would become obsessed with the idea, like I, how do I ever earn your respect again? And then realize. And I don't know whether I, like, it was like a, like a, there was no, like, lightbulb moment. It wasn't like being struck by lightning, but just gradually I just realized, like every day that I got out of bed, and I put one foot in front of the other,

• 3:31:36Speaker 06

  and I sat down, and I painted, and I shared what I made in my creation with the people around me, and then a wider group of people, and then, um, uh, pick up the phone and call somebody else that was sick and suffering, and would try to be of service to somebody that was, um, you know, looking for a way out.

• 3:31:57Speaker 06

  And just as long as I was true to myself, and tried to, uh, make amends with the people that I needed to make amends with, as long as I fucking did that, I could get to the next day.

• 3:32:11Speaker 06

  I don't know if I'm explaining it. Nah. In any way that...

• 3:32:17Speaker 06

  That makes sense, but they completely deconstructed me.

• 3:32:23Speaker 06

  And that humiliation and dehumanization, which was a full-time, 24/7 campaign that was directly coordinated, you know, right from the president. I mean, the whole Where's Hunter thing. I mean, you don't know what kind of havoc that wreaked in my life, man. When he started to say Where's Hunter in front of 70,000, 50,000, 30,000, whatever crowd size he made up in his head, and they aired it on every single cable channel and played it over and over again on, on Fox News. Surprise, surprise, people showed up at my fucking house with bullhorns, in the middle of the night, and followed us. I don't have any security. My wife is pregnant. They ran her off the road. Twice.

• 3:33:10Speaker 06

  I mean, it has real-world consequences, man. And then, so we moved a second time in the middle of the night, and we were in Venice, and we'd lived on the canal, and one of my friends had put us in this place, until they found us there. And then they got canoes, and they sat out in the canal, this far away, as far away as that wall, with a bullhorn, for hours on hours and hours with the six-month-old screaming, yelling, um, for me to come out.

• 3:33:36Speaker 06

  And then they got a billboard truck. And they parked the billboard truck, a full-size billboard, digital billboard truck, and ran in front of, and sat in front of the house and ran all of the pictures from the laptop. Of me naked, of me smoking crack, of me being, you know, a criminal. For a week, for ten days, for two weeks until we moved. And then they followed us there. And so, it had real, real world consequences, but it put me in a position of having to make a choice every day. Am I that? And if I'm not, who am I? Who am I?

• 3:34:18Speaker 06

  Am I the caricature that Tucker Carlson makes me out to be? Or, you know, am I, um, am I, uh, who am I? And I think that I've answered that question, and I think that, that, uh, but that's for me. And, you know, I guess the one thing I've learned is this. You know, you talk about that book that you recommend to everybody, which is, um, basically the red letter words of, of Christ. Do you want one? I'd love one. I, I already have it on, on, a book on tape. I had it before you. It said that I'd gotten it and, um, on, on audio. I'd love the hard copy.

• 3:35:02Speaker 06

  But what's the thing? What's a singular message of Christ? Love. In my opinion, love. Love one another, love your neighbor, and love God. And do not judge unless you want to be judged. But more than anything, it's just love. And, and, uh,

• 3:35:38Speaker 06

  And that's what I think, like, what's the real epiphany? Is that the first place that you gotta love is yourself. And if you're gonna love yourself, you gotta be honest with yourself. Because if, how do you love the person that's keeping a secret about the thing that you're ashamed of? You just can't. It's impossible. And I've figured out how to love myself. And that doesn't mean that I don't fuck up and, and, and, uh, you know, I certainly fail every day at applying the,

• 3:36:22Speaker 06

  at least the way in which, by the way, I think that you find the same lessons in, um, not just in the red letters of Christ, the actual words that he spoke. I think you find it in the Bhagavad Gita. I think you find it throughout all of the Apanishads. I think that you find it in all of the, the most sacred texts. Is that it comes down to one thing. And you asked me before, is how are we gonna find our way out of this as a country, as a, as a people, as a, is, is the only way I know is the thing that people are desperate fucking for is connection.

• 3:37:07Speaker 06

  It's the only way. And, and that's what each one of these messages is about. Of all of the sacred texts, is that we are all connected. We, whether we think it or not, I mean, literally down to the scientific level that Carl Sagan would, has taught us, is that literally we are stardust. And we are all connected. And we are not just in the metaphysical sense, but in the actual physical sense. And, um,

• 3:37:45Speaker 06

  And unless, for me, and it just go back to me, is that unless you figure out a way to love yourself, then all you're gonna end up doing is hurting other people. Anyway, I don't know if that makes sense to you.

• 3:38:02Shawn Ryan?

  That makes sense. I mean, we had a conversation offline about psychedelics.

• 3:38:08Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:38:09Shawn Ryan?

  And we talked about 5-MEO DMT.

• 3:38:11Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:38:12Shawn Ryan?

  And we had, I guess we can't say the exact same experience, but

• 3:38:17Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:38:18Shawn Ryan?

  we had the same experience. And that experience, however you arrive there, is probably different. But

• 3:38:26Speaker 06

  I don't think so.

• 3:38:26Shawn Ryan?

  When you, when you arrive, you feel the oneness, you feel the connected, the connectivity, you see that everything's connected. I mean, you, you described it, you described it the exact same way that I described it. When I took it, I don't know if you were blindfolded or if you

• 3:38:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:38:45Shawn Ryan?

  weren't.

• 3:38:45Speaker 06

  For the 5-MEO, I was. For the Ivo Gana, I was not.

• 3:38:48Shawn Ryan?

  I took the blindfold off for the 5-MEO.

• 3:38:51Speaker 06

  Oh, you did?

• 3:38:52Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah. And I had no visualizations, no hallucinations, none of that.

• 3:38:58Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:38:58Shawn Ryan?

  What I did have was a very profound intuitiveness, and it showed me, I could feel, I could feel the flow of energy going through everything. I could feel it coming through the ocean, onto the islands, back into the ocean, onto the, onto the beach, up the trees, and the grass, and the birds, and the air, everything. You could, it, it, it, it became, everything is one, everything is good, and if there's something bad, then it would have been like a spotlight in the dark. You would have been able to point it out immediately.

• 3:39:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:39:44Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, like

• 3:39:46Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:39:47Shawn Ryan?

  And that's what I felt, and that's what you described. And so, you know, when you're talking about

• 3:39:55Shawn Ryan?

  Judgment and ridicule and all of these things. I mean, in the end, I mean, if you're, if you're spewing that shit into the fucking ecosystem into the world, it's gonna come back.

• 3:40:06Speaker 06

  Exactly.

• 3:40:07Shawn Ryan?

  On you. And if you spread goodness throughout the world, then that also is going to come back on you. And that's, that's one of the major life lessons I think that I learned that day. Probably not even realizing that I learned it that day. But

• 3:40:26Speaker 06

  No, yeah.

• 3:40:27Shawn Ryan?

  You know, it showed me that if I treat you like shit, or put anybody else in front of me, and I treat that person like shit, that's, that's treating myself like shit, because that's gonna fucking come back to me.

• 3:40:42Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:40:43Shawn Ryan?

  Because it's all connected.

• 3:40:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:40:45Shawn Ryan?

  Does that make sense?

• 3:40:47Speaker 06

  It makes total sense. And, and

• 3:40:53Speaker 06

  and it's, uh,

• 3:40:56Speaker 06

  it's this, the, uh, that experience, um, for me, didn't have the same level of kind of profound immediate effect as related to my, um, uh, sobriety. But, uh, but it was, it, it, here's the really interesting part about it. It's the only drug that I know that I haven't, um, uh, that I've taken and enjoyed that I haven't craved. Do you have that? I mean, I don't feel like the desperate need to try five M E O again.

• 3:41:30Shawn Ryan?

  I've done it a handful of times.

• 3:41:31Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:41:32Shawn Ryan?

  I do it, I do it maybe once every couple of years to

• 3:41:36Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. And I guess my, my point about it is

• 3:41:40Shawn Ryan?

  No, I don't crave it because I have a very healthy respect for it and a tremendous amount of fear.

• 3:41:46Speaker 06

  Okay, yeah. And that's what I was about to say, is that I think that I came to that experience with I would game in five M E O with the right, um, uh,

• 3:41:58Speaker 06

  Respect for, in reverence for the plant medicine time. I tried ayahuasca

• 3:42:09Speaker 06

  in a different environment for the same purpose and had a very, very, very horrible, dark experience. But I came to it with a very insincere Intentions. Intentions.

• 3:42:23Speaker 06

  And both ostensibly in an attempt to find sobriety. I think that there is so much incredible promise in some of these plant medicines as it relates to people that suffer from PTSD, particularly in the studies that they've done in the communities. I know that you talked to Governor Newsom about that and they're making some real inroads.

• 3:42:50Speaker 06

  But just, all I can talk about it is from the personal experience and how it informs me. Ask like, you know, what was the thing that made me ready? I don't know. The combination of attempts that I made that all led up to me being open and willing to like, like look in Melissa's eyes and when she said, "This ends now", to say, "Okay" to a stranger and put myself at the mercy of someone, to trust that they are going to help me do the hard work.

• 3:43:27Speaker 06

  But anyway, I think people are desperate to be connected and I think that that is both a beautiful thing and one of the things that has exposed people to and made them very easy targets, including myself, to the algorithms that I, you know, bent to, to the need to be a part of something. Easiest thing to be a part of is hate. You know? It's the easiest thing. It's really easy to get people to band together, to

• 3:44:09Speaker 06

  To blame somebody else, whether it's a group or an individual, you know? And that's why I give people a real break and I kind of understand, like, I can imagine, I don't read the comments anymore, but I was in, um, uh, I'll give you an example. Is that Bowie was about, not about, he was a year and a couple of months old, a few months old, and it was a Halloween of 2021. And so he's like this big and he's in a, in one of those like zip up Chewbacca costumes. It was like the cool, he was the cutest thing

• 3:44:48Speaker 06

  you've ever seen in your life. And we went with my, uh, with Melissa, Bo and my father-in-law, who was visiting from South Africa, and my mother-in-law had just passed three months earlier to glioblastoma, like my brother did, almost exactly five years apart from my brother, six. And, um, and Lee, my father-in-law, we went to this little place in Cornell, uh, which is like in the mountains behind Malibu. And I mean, you know, it's rural. I mean, it's as rural as out here, that part of California. And there's this little place, you know, the outdoor seating, and it was like that, you know, the in-between

• 3:45:33Speaker 06

  time with COVID. And, um, and I put Bowie on my shoulders and it's one of those beautiful, it's Halloween day and it's like around four o'clock. It's a magnificently beautiful fall day. And we're walking to the car and this couple comes like bursting around the side of the restaurant because all the tables were outside and is, the, the woman has a phone out, she's filming me with just rage in her eyes. And the guy, who's about my size, is like, gets like this far from me, which means he's this far from, from a one and a half year old. It's like the most cute little thing you've ever seen in your life.

• 3:46:13Speaker 06

  And he's screaming, "You fucking criminal, you should fucking be executed, you fucking criminal pedophile, you..." I mean, and is screaming and the woman's screaming the same thing. And Melissa goes to step in front of us and at this point, we have Secret Service and the Secret Service like jump in and we're two feet from the car, put us in the car and we go away.

• 3:46:38Speaker 06

  And it was the first actual physical like altercation that I nearly came in. And it really shook my father-in-law. And, um, and I went to, uh, everybody went to bed and I'm up and I'm flipping through my phone and I, my Apple feed and there's this story that was out that day about a woman that was a schoolteacher in Orange County, I think, or I forget whether it's Ventura County or Orange County, eighth grade history teacher. And one of her students videotaped her class. And in her class, for close to the forty five full minute of the class, she was teaching

• 3:47:22Speaker 06

  her class that Hunter Biden was running a pedophile ring in China and that he'd taken billions of dollars and that he was responsible with George Soros for, um, uh, for, uh, being a part of the conspiracy to, to, to release, uh, COVID, um, at the Wuhan lab. And like, and just went through, like everything, every conspiracy, everything in the New York Post, everything that Sean Hannity like gave like a little bit of life to, and every one of those things. And it made me realize this.

• 3:48:05Speaker 06

  If you believed that about me, if you really believed that about me, wouldn't it be incumbent upon you to get up from your fucking lunch and fucking scream at me at the least? If you truly believed that I was running a pedophile ring?

• 3:48:28Speaker 06

  Wouldn't it be incumbent upon you? As a decent human being to confront me? Uh huh. And it made me realize, like, what do we fucking do? What do we do now, man? Because I can come here and I can talk to you and I can make it clear and I can say, but you know what? There's, there's so much money to be made in that, in that hatred, in those lies. The realization that how do I combat that? How does anybody combat that in this moment in time? You can say a lot of things about my dad,

• 3:49:12Speaker 06

  you know, that I don't have any problem with, about his policies, or whether you think that he was too old, or whether you think that he, whatever. But you know what? To say anything other than my dad is the most incredible father I've ever met in my entire life and is a decent, decent human being that has real empathy and cares about people. Like, you know, like, I can, I don't have any problem with you criticizing, but you know how many, how, how many people believe that my dad is a pedophile? Because some motherfucker stole my sister's trauma diary?

• 3:49:56Speaker 06

  And sold it to Don Jr.? And took things in the trauma diary because she had faced sexual violence when she was, that's my sister's story. And, and then, and then created a idea that, that my father was a pedophile? Do you know how much that lives in that world? And how much directly comes from the Trumps?

• 3:50:22Speaker 06

  Directly comes from, from literally people like Don Jr. Who was directly involved in that.

• 3:50:30Speaker 06

  Who was directly involved in contacting the owners of the gun shop to have them go to the state police to doctor a, um, uh, a, they doctored the form. The actual form? It's not the actual form I filled out.

• 3:50:46Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean that doctored?

• 3:50:47Speaker 06

  When I went in to buy the, buy the gun, okay? You have to come up with, you have to have an ID. You have to have a, a state ID. And I didn't have one.

• 3:50:59Speaker 06

  And they said, no problem.

• 3:51:03Speaker 06

  And so when the D, the, the, um,

• 3:51:08Speaker 06

  when ATF came to get the form after they were like supposedly tipped off by, uh, you know, the, the, they actually, they forged the form, the actual form of which I was charged with as the crime for. Filling out incorrectly. It wasn't the, the, the, the form that the D, that, that the Department of Justice used to prosecute me was not the actual form. The gun shop owners actually, uh, um, uh, forged it.

• 3:51:41Shawn Ryan?

  How do you know that?

• 3:51:42Speaker 06

  Oh, it was part of the record. You can go look at it in the record. Go look at, uh, uh, reporting from the empty wheel and the actual documents. I'll show you the documents. I'll show you the two different things. We tried to get them introduced in court and the judge said it was irrelevant.

• 3:51:56Shawn Ryan?

  How is it irrelevant?

• 3:51:58Speaker 06

  Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, I literally, I will show you so you can put it up on, on the thing. Two separate forms.

• 3:52:07Shawn Ryan?

  We'll put it up. You have the forms?

• 3:52:09Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 3:52:09Shawn Ryan?

  We'll put them up.

• 3:52:10Speaker 06

  Yeah. I'll get, uh, my lawyers to send them to you. And that's the point is that my, my point is, is that they're literally directly involved in that.

• 3:52:22Speaker 06

  And if you can make people believe

• 3:52:28Speaker 06

  the worst possible thing, what's that called?

• 3:52:33Speaker 06

  I always, I literally have a mental break. But the idea being is that if you can convince people, even a very small subset,

• 3:52:46Speaker 06

  that

• 3:52:48Speaker 06

  that

• 3:52:51Speaker 06

  someone is the worst thing that you could possibly say. What's, what worse could you say about somebody other than that they're a pedophile? Right? I don't think of anything that I can possibly think that is more like a crisis. But if you can convince even five, 10% of the population that somebody's, that they think somebody could be a pedophile, then you certainly can convince 35% of the population that you just flood the zone of that shit with, that they are a, that they're corrupt.

• 3:53:23Speaker 06

  Or that they, that they were part of some bribery scheme. Even if that bribery scheme turns out to be a concoction by a guy that was working with Russian intelligence that is sitting in a jail cell in, out in California right now, in a federal penitentiary.

• 3:53:43Speaker 06

  Even if you blow the whole thing up.

• 3:53:46Speaker 06

  But that's what they do. And

• 3:53:51Speaker 06

  anyway, I guess my whole point, and I'm now talking

• 3:53:57Speaker 06

  too much and losing the train of thought is that

• 3:54:05Speaker 06

  people are desperate for connection. And when they find connection in a cause of a common enemy,

• 3:54:14Speaker 06

  they feel a part of something. And what, what we've given each other, not you and me, but

• 3:54:24Speaker 06

  this country that we live in right now, all we've given each other is people to think of as enemies.

• 3:54:33Speaker 06

  And it makes me really, and I don't, I don't mean this in any saccharine way. It is, is probably the most

• 3:54:43Speaker 06

  devastating, emotionally devastating thing.

• 3:54:48Speaker 06

  Other than the death of a family that I've experienced in my life, is a feeling that this thing that my family has given 50 years of our life to is, is I'm about to, we're about to, to lose it. I really feel that, and I don't think that that's kind of, you know, melodrama. You know, I listen to you and I listen to other people that are on the other side of this that, that say the same thing. And I kind of look at them and I think, like, God, can you not see that we're trying to figure out the same thing? Can you not see the humanity in me?

• 3:55:30Speaker 06

  Because I'm not the person that high school, that eighth grade teacher informed by Alex Jones and, you know, Jesse Waters would have you believe that I am. I promise you, I'm not. Spend a minute. Because those motherfuckers, they got one thing that they're doing. They're making money. As we all suffer. They are, they are just laughing all the way to the bank.

• 3:56:28Speaker 06

  It's a damn shame.

• 3:56:34Speaker 06

  You know, driving with a friend of mine. He's a really close friend. He's had some real health problems. And I came back in Delaware and we're, I took him out to lunch. And we drove by one of those like huge American flags. And that used to fill me with an enormous sense of pride.

• 3:57:05Speaker 06

  And driving by it and he goes, he goes, "Jesus Christ."

• 3:57:11Speaker 06

  And I don't know of anybody that's more patriotic than this person. He's like, "Makes me cry."

• 3:57:20Speaker 06

  "Makes me cry."

• 3:57:26Speaker 06

  And I, I'm like, thinking,

• 3:57:31Speaker 06

  "Who, who did I fucking let take that away from me?"

• 3:57:36Speaker 06

  And I got mad at myself.

• 3:57:42Speaker 06

  You know, I, I get, I get so angry and I find that the thing that I get angry about are, from the perspective of a, of a son, you know, like, I really went off on George Clooney. And I really went off on the Pod Save America guys. And, and, um, and the reason I did is because I think they're a bunch of fucking arrogant fucks.

• 3:58:04Speaker 06

  I do.

• 3:58:07Speaker 06

  I think that Jake, Jake Tapper is a, is a, um, is a pompous arrogant fuck.

• 3:58:16Speaker 06

  But you know what? I think they love this country.

• 3:58:22Speaker 06

  I don't think that they're bad people. I think they're just arrogant fucking fucks. From my own personal experience.

• 3:58:33Speaker 06

  And my point is that, like,

• 3:58:40Speaker 06

  when, when did I allow, uh,

• 3:58:47Speaker 06

  anybody to steal that pride from me? What, what is with Jake Tapper? Oh, he's such a, he's such a, I mean, look,

• 3:58:59Speaker 06

  I almost got in a fight with Jake Tapper at the Super Bowl in, I forget when it was. I mean, the first Eagles Super Bowl, uh, not the first, but, uh, it must've been, it was shortly after my brother's death. And he had done something that I thought was totally fucked up. And I told him I would fucking, if it weren't in front of a lot of people, I would knock him the fuck out. And this is how much of a pussy he is.

• 3:59:19Speaker 06

  He called my dad and demanded an apology.

• 3:59:23Shawn Ryan?

  What?

• 3:59:26Speaker 06

  He's a grown fucking man. He called one of my dad's staffers and he goes and he said, I felt threatened and Hunter owes me an apology. And by the way, I, I, I felt incredibly justified. I'm not going to tell this story because it, it's, it's, it's too convoluted. But just that, that's who Jake Tapper is. I mean, you know, he talks big, hides behind a pen and a desk and, and I don't think that he contributes in any way to the, to the discourse or provides any real journalism whatsoever. And so I'm allowed to, to, to have my own personal feelings, but my whole point of it is, is it like, who cares though?

• 4:00:03Shawn Ryan?

  Is he the one that kind of like, did he write a book about your dad's cognitive decline? And released it like right at the very end of the?

• 4:00:10Speaker 06

  Yes, right at the end, like within two weeks of the?

• 4:00:12Shawn Ryan?

  Way to jump on the bandwagon bud.

• 4:00:15Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:00:15Shawn Ryan?

  You're about

• 4:00:16Speaker 06

  And by the way.

• 4:00:17Shawn Ryan?

  Three years and six months, too fucking late.

• 4:00:19Speaker 06

  Yeah, no sources, no, no on the record sources.

• 4:00:22Shawn Ryan?

  No shit?

• 4:00:23Speaker 06

  None.

• 4:00:24Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 4:00:25Speaker 06

  Nobody on the record will go on the record, but you know, he was certain and he was absolutely this and that and the other thing. He's just so full of shit. Anyway.

• 4:00:33Shawn Ryan?

  He really came around to the narrative early on that one.

• 4:00:35Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

• 4:00:39Shawn Ryan?

  Oh.

• 4:00:40Speaker 06

  But my point is, this is so, a, a world of incredibly disingenuous and, um, uh, but I, I, I don't know, um, what it is that is like, I, I'm, I'm at a loss about what it is, brings it together. And that brings us back to this conversation is that at the very beginning, you're saying to me, I can't believe that you like, like this, like, what, what don't you get is this? Is that I don't get any of that from listening to you, even though you, you, even when you platform people that I think are fucking out of their mind. And I don't say platform,

• 4:01:25Speaker 06

  but you know what? And from probably the majority of your audience are thinking this exactly that about me right now.

• 4:01:36Shawn Ryan?

  Guarantee you that.

• 4:01:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, guarantee you. Um, uh.

• 4:01:41Speaker 06

  But I'm, I don't know. I don't know how we, how we fix it. I don't know.

• 4:01:48Shawn Ryan?

  Well.

• 4:01:58Shawn Ryan?

  I thought you were going to get that gun in the corner.

• 4:02:01Speaker 06

  So what the fuck?

• 4:02:04Shawn Ryan?

  That would be a method number two.

• 4:02:06Speaker 06

  I literally thought that you were going over to pull that Glock off the fucking... So, Jesus Christ. He's getting real here.

• 4:02:15Shawn Ryan?

  I got something for you, buddy.

• 4:02:20Shawn Ryan?

  What is today? The sixteenth?

• 4:02:22Speaker 06

  Sixteenth.

• 4:02:30Shawn Ryan?

  Great.

• 4:02:32Speaker 06

  Oh, man. Oh, dude. I, this is a, it's a drawing that I did.

• 4:02:37Shawn Ryan?

  That's a drawing?

• 4:02:38Speaker 06

  Yeah, so it's, um... Anyway, it's, it's my, it's my version of an eagle. You can, you gotta get, you gotta put it in a, in a, uh... In an Amazon frame and put it in your bathroom somewhere. Yeah, yeah.

• 4:02:51Shawn Ryan?

  Let's not go in that Amazon. Are you fucking kidding me?

• 4:02:54Speaker 06

  Anyway.

• 4:02:56Shawn Ryan?

  Dude, thank you. Well, this is awesome.

• 4:03:00Speaker 06

  Thanks, man.

• 4:03:03Shawn Ryan?

  I always wanted some Hunter Biden art.

• 4:03:04Speaker 06

  Well, you got it.

• 4:03:05Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 4:03:06Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:03:08Shawn Ryan?

  That is awesome.

• 4:03:09Speaker 06

  Of course, the next one, um, according to the New York Post, is, is, is at least a half a million dollars.

• 4:03:16Speaker 06

  And I'll be expecting that. You can, you can pay me in, um, uh... In, uh, Trump could feel currency.

• 4:03:26Shawn Ryan?

  I don't have any of that, but, okay, but, uh...

• 4:03:29Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:03:31Shawn Ryan?

  Here you go. Jesus calling.

• 4:03:33Speaker 06

  Thank you, man. I appreciate it.

• 4:03:35Shawn Ryan?

  That's the only thing that fixes this.

• 4:03:37Speaker 06

  Yep. Yeah. Thank you.

• 4:03:43Shawn Ryan?

  You're welcome. Thank you. This is fucking awesome.

• 4:03:46Speaker 06

  Cool.

• 4:03:47Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you.

• 4:03:49Speaker 06

  Glad you like it, man.

• 4:03:52Shawn Ryan?

  Lot of dark stuff going on in the world right now. And it's to the point where I don't even believe my own eyes anymore because I cannot verify what people are saying about all the political violence, the division. I partnered with this production company called Ironclad and we're doing an eight-part audio series on psy-ops, on why foreign countries, governments, maybe even our own government, would conduct a psy-op on its own people. And I just think that this series is going to be extremely important because it's going to open the eyes of people on why these things happen. You can head over to psyopshow.com, order it today. I think you're going to get a lot out of this.

• 4:04:37Shawn Ryan?

  Who's pulling the strings? Who's pulling them?

• 4:05:24Speaker 06

  My explanation as it relates to Don Jr.'s involvement with my sister's diary is that I believe the person that stole it initially brought it to a fundraiser at Mar-a-Lago and got it to Don Jr., who I think was the one who eventually connected them with the people at Project Veritas. And then they just weaponized it. And...

• 4:05:53Speaker 06

  Do you mind if I ask, what was the, I mean, I'm just curious, what was the conversation within the family when, when that came out?

• 4:06:04Shawn Ryan?

  The, the, the, the.

• 4:06:06Speaker 06

  Just got like the, the, like.

• 4:06:08Shawn Ryan?

  The journal.

• 4:06:10Speaker 06

  Um, uh, like barbarity of, of these people. Um, they don't really mean it. It's like, uh, like, how do you, how do you get away with that? And not, um, uh, pay for it? I mean, like, again, like, let's move this into the, the laptop. Okay? This is the same thing and writ large, you know? In which you steal someone's digital life.

• 4:06:51Speaker 06

  And you turn it into whatever boogeyman that you want to.

• 4:06:57Shawn Ryan?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:06:58Speaker 06

  And, um, and, and just from, uh, let's just go to the, to the most basic level of, of, uh, the, uh, of how wrong that is, of, of what it, what it, what it, what it, a

• 4:07:20Speaker 06

  incredible invasion of anyone's privacy, that is. And for instance, is it, if I stole your phone, you have an encrypted phone and, um, and I was able to then cobble together or broke into your iCloud, of which I know that they did, or, um, uh, and cobble together whatever they ended up calling a laptop. Okay?

• 4:07:53Speaker 06

  And then, um, uh, and was able to through the, the worst period in your life. Okay? Which you talk openly about, you talk openly about, you know, um, uh, you know, your issues with, um, uh, substances that, that didn't make you proud of who you're being and try to change. And I took those moments and I, uh, uh.

• 4:08:22Speaker 06

  And I took the, the, uh, every photo that was taken of you during that time, in the worst period of your life, and, and made a monster out of you. In order to, and I know that was never about me. It was about my dad. And it was to destroy, to destroy my dad. I think that the, the thing that they truly thought, I think that the thing that Steve Bannon and Rudy Giuliani believed was that they would be able to repeat history in the same way that they, um, uh, and do the same thing that they did to, um, uh, uh, Senator Muskie in 1972.

• 4:09:05Speaker 06

  And they broke into his wife's psychiatrist's office. They stole the, um, uh, their private notes. Um, they revealed that she was a, um, uh, struggled with alcoholism and, um, you know, every other embarrassing thing about her. And Ed Muskie, everybody knew, um, who was a decent, hardworking, um, blue collar senator from, uh, New Hampshire, uh, that, uh, that by all accounts was the only guy that could beat Nixon at that time. And they, um, and they broke him. They broke him because they knew there was nothing that he cared about more in this world than his relationship with his wife and his wife and his family. And they broke him.

• 4:09:50Speaker 06

  And he, uh, cried on stage and talking about her in a, in a, in a time in which that was, you know, the end of somebody's political career and he had to drop out of the race. And that was what their intent was with, um, um, me. It was never about, um, uh, because there is no evidence of, of, uh, of corruption in the laptop, none. Tell me what you think the laptop is. I mean, what, what

• 4:10:20Shawn Ryan?

  What do I think the laptop is? I think that the, I think that I found out about the laptop. I think the first time I've, I, I found out about the laptop, I interviewed this guy, Peter Schweitzer. And that was, if I remember correctly, this was years ago, that was a major part of the interview. And he actually gave me a hard drive

• 4:10:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:10:43Shawn Ryan?

  of the laptop.

• 4:10:44Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:10:45Shawn Ryan?

  And said that this had been scrubbed. To take all the kiddie porn off of it. Otherwise, I couldn't have this. It would be illegal.

• 4:10:54Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 4:10:55Shawn Ryan?

  I never opened it because I was like.

• 4:10:57Speaker 06

  Yeah, but that's my point is that's the shit that they did.

• 4:11:00Shawn Ryan?

  That's that's what they and then and then, of course, all the pictures of you with hookers and the Burisma emails and apparently it was all on there.

• 4:11:10Speaker 06

  Yeah, but but for instance.

• 4:11:12Shawn Ryan?

  In in that you had dropped it off to a laptop repair guy.

• 4:11:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, so but for instance, just that is that remember the first thing that Rudy Giuliani did. It's called eliminationist rhetoric is that he went to the steps of the Newcastle County courthouse in Delaware and stood on the steps and demanded a meeting with the the chief of the Newcastle County Police in Delaware and the state police and the Attorney General and the US Attorney. And he said, basically, he pulled a um, uh, you know, one of those I have here in my hands a evidence of, you know, mistreatment of children and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. It's just all complete and utter bullshit.

• 4:12:00Speaker 06

  So Peter Schweitzer, Breitbart, he said they had to scrub it of of of, you know, of of images of of children. Let me ask you a question. Do you think those images would have come out by now? I mean, it is absolutely insane in a complete and utter fabrication, a complete lie. Completely. But that's where they started because they realized that it didn't have any evidence of the corruption that they then concocted about a bribe or my, you know, billions of dollars flowing through like you say, the Burisma emails. Yeah, there were emails from into Burisma from me as a board member of a company in which

• 4:12:43Speaker 06

  I served on and I was transparent about and I actually put out a press release about in which show no evidence of any, any whatsoever criminal activity. Any involvement of my father, not one single communication between me and anyone in my dad's staff or my dad or anyone about me asking for a favor on behalf of a client. Not one, not a single one.

• 4:13:11Speaker 06

  So what they originally revert to? They originally reverted to basically accusing me of the worst thing that you could possibly ever accuse anybody of.

• 4:13:24Speaker 06

  That. Child porn. Yeah.

• 4:13:27Speaker 06

  I mean, imagine having to wake up from that, wake up the next day

• 4:13:36Speaker 06

  from that.

• 4:13:39Speaker 06

  And thinking, even if one of the people that you respect in the world

• 4:13:46Speaker 06

  believed that that could be true.

• 4:13:49Speaker 06

  Like, oh, my God.

• 4:13:53Speaker 06

  Like, how do you ever get out of bed?

• 4:13:57Speaker 06

  And then how do you defend yourself, Sean?

• 4:14:00Speaker 06

  What, you go out and do this, you go, I'm not, I'm not a pedophile, I'm not a pedophile. Like, literally, like, I don't beat my wife. You know what I mean?

• 4:14:13Speaker 06

  And that's what they did. And then they just repeated it over and over again, until it kind of played out, until at least some responsible journalist said, okay, like, if you keep, like, we're not going to keep repeating this because it's patently false, and there's zero evidence of it. So then they moved on to the next thing. They moved on to the next thing that I was a, you know, the next thing was a, like, a symbiotic relationship between Russia and GRU and, and like Steve Bannon and Gao, the Chinese billionaire, you know, that ran the Chinese, that, that, that cult. In which, what they determined then was, is that I was funding weapons labs in Ukraine

• 4:14:57Speaker 06

  with George Soros to infect migratory birds to murder the population in Russia.

• 4:15:04Speaker 06

  And that was the whole thing. That got me sanctioned by the Russians. They did like a two and a half hour press conference on it. And then it just comes around and then in the right wing podcast Ecosphere from Alex Jones, back to Russia, back to Chinese operatives, back to Gao, back to Bannon, and then they recycle it again. And then what ends up happening is that the New York Post and Sean Hannity, you know, give it some credence. They don't do it in a way that is completely absurd, but they report on the accusations. And then the New York Times writes a story about the

• 4:15:48Speaker 06

  story. And then it gets on CNN and Jake Tapper does a piece on, well, this may not be true, but clearly there's, you know, Hunter Biden's corrupt. I said, what the fuck are you talking about? And what do you do? So I started the day as a pedophile and I went to bed as a, as some super spy that is providing billions of dollars in funding for weapons labs. And I woke up the next morning being accused of, of something else. And it, and it became

• 4:16:32Speaker 06

  almost impossible. So what I can tell you about the laptop is that there is no laptop. That's bullshit. What was provided out there, what the There was no fucking laptop? There is an actual physical laptop that somebody had, but the guy that had, that said he had the laptop, the existence of the search for the laptop came before he was even a twinkle in Rudy Giuliani's eye. There were people, talk of Led Parnas. Led Parnas literally went to Ukraine to get a laptop from Dmitry Firtash, to get a hard drive, Hunter Biden's

• 4:17:11Speaker 06

  hard drive from Dmitry Firtash and Andriy Derkach in Ukraine, in Austria, four months before John Paul McIsaac ever even, nobody ever existed.

• 4:17:24Speaker 06

  So what they did is they cobbled together stolen, concocted, fabricated mishmash of digital information, largely which is, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of emails for 20, from 25 years. I mean, no laptop could have held all of that. And so what they did is they just, they, they put it all together and then they talk about it. I mean, John Paul McIsaac, who is literally blind, has no, there's no videotape of me ever dropping off a laptop. There's no, so whatever.

• 4:17:59Shawn Ryan?

  You, you never dropped off a laptop?

• 4:18:01Speaker 06

  I have no recollection whatsoever of ever dropping off a laptop to John Paul McIsaac, to his shop. And so what he did though, let me just put it this way. Say I did, say I took my laptop in to get repaired. Okay. And you're John Paul McIsaac. And what he says is he reads and he goes to repair the laptop, but then he starts to read the files in the, in the laptop. And he reads a file and he sees files about Burisma. By the way, a board of which I'm on, of an independent, private Ukrainian company, in which I am a, a board

• 4:18:45Speaker 06

  member doing corporate governance, as an attorney. And he says that the only thing that he can think of doing is calling Rudy Giuliani? He's a laptop repair shop owner in Wilmington, Delaware, who lit, whose store is three and a half miles at most from where my parents live, where everybody knows my parents live. So if he had a laptop that he wanted to return, he thinks that the best thing to do is call Rudy Giuliani's, Rudy Giuliani's lawyer, Costello, and give it to my sworn enemy?

• 4:19:24Speaker 06

  Who then take it, and in it, I will once again ask you this question. What crime has anyone ever? But there was no laptop, right? No, there, he has, he had, he took a hard drive. He took whatever he said. He said that he had a damaged laptop and what he did is he downloaded a hard drive. And then he gave that hard drive to Bob Costello. And then from that hard drive, you have people like Patrick Byrne and Jack Maxi and a whole bunch of other people, like I could list the names that come together. There's one woman that's like known as Cat Lady or something like that, literally. And what they say that they did is they cobbled together all of this digital material

• 4:20:08Speaker 06

  that was floating out everywhere. That had been stolen from phones, that had been taken from the dark web, that had been taken from the hard drive that John They consolidated it all. And they consolidated it all and they made it out to be this thing. And so then the story doesn't become about the laptop at all. Because there's nothing in the laptop other than a record of me being a degenerate. A degenerate drug addict. In my, at the worst moment in my life. At the worst moment in my life of people clearly, me not taking selfies, of people clearly taking pictures of me in the rooms that I found myself in. Smoking crack, doing drugs, doing whatever. Nothing criminal, other than obviously drug use.

• 4:20:53Speaker 06

  And what other people would think is, you know, abhorrent behavior. I mean, whatever. Having sex with women. And so they take that, and then you can say whatever you want. No one, no one read the stories. When you put me naked on the front page of the New York Post over and over again with a crack pipe in my mouth, it becomes like gold. And Miranda Devine said it was the most read, the most followed story in the history of the paper. She's written and sold two bestselling books based upon that. And it's all about the pictures. It's like sex, drugs and politics, man.

• 4:21:38Speaker 06

  And that's what they did. So then it became about the cover up of the laptop story. You know why Twitter took down that story?

• 4:21:48Speaker 06

  Because, non-consensual pornography. It's because, under what is law today, that was pushed by Melania Trump, is revenge porn. You're not allowed to take a picture that is stolen from somebody's digital material, of them in, in, in, uh, naked, and, um, uh, with, with another person, and publish it.

• 4:22:14Speaker 07

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• 4:22:44Speaker 00

  Mr. President, my company, for me, the explosion on our rig. On October 2nd. Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me. Tom Cruise is.

• 4:22:55Speaker 02

  Digger got us into this mess. And Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and the Revenant.

• 4:23:01Speaker 03

  What would happen if I stopped drilling? You're stalled, you're freezing there, that's what.

• 4:23:05Speaker 01

  With great power, comes great deniability.

• 4:23:08Speaker 03

  I'm not the first nanny.

• 4:23:09Speaker 01

  Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.

• 4:23:15Speaker 06

  I mean, you're not allowed to do that. It's a crime. But in my, in my instance, and so, that's what the New York Post story ran, in the initial story, and it had naked pictures of me in there. And under the terms of Twitter, they took it down, when I objected to it. So you gotta take that down. And so they took it down, and then that became, uh, the hobby horse for everybody, is that it was a, it was, it was an issue of free speech, and how the deep state, um, uh, you know, buried the story. What story? That I was a drug addict? And then I was in rooms in which people took pictures of me, and I took pictures of myself?

• 4:24:03Speaker 06

  Because otherwise, I've sat across from journalists, I've sat across from detractors, and I don't know of anybody that's kind of at least more informed than you are in terms of the number of people that have come through this studio that have had an opinion about it. And I know that you prepare and you have a team that prepares. Has any one of your team ever been able to tell you of any crime, other than crimes of, as it relates to illicit drug use, that is on a laptop? And I mean, wouldn't you have, if there were, wouldn't

• 4:24:43Speaker 06

  you come, and by the way, obviously, like, it's all there, Sean. Like, there's nothing more to show. So there's not a single instance of a crime. And I told you, is that I got investigated by Crim Tax and Main Justice, I got six years of investigation of the US Attorney in the state of Delaware, in the state, in Pittsburgh, in Baltimore, in the Baltimore field office, in the Philadelphia field office, the US Attorney in Los Angeles, the House Ways and Means Committee, the House Judiciary Committee, the House Oversight Committee, the Senate Judiciary Committee Oversight Committee, all, every one of them,

• 4:25:22Speaker 06

  and probably a number of foreign operative, you know, foreign intelligence agencies. Not a single criminal act has been even accused of me that is based on evidence from the laptop. So, the irony is, is that the thing that they hang around my neck as being this, you know, this great sin, the laptop, is in actuality, evidence of the absolute bullshit of their accusations. Wow.

• 4:26:03Speaker 06

  So, they say that I was engaged in some type of bribery in Ukraine. Now, the person that stated that to an FBI agent in an FD 1023, a confidential informant statement.

• 4:26:22Speaker 06

  Was then arrested by the same special prosecutor that was prosecuting me. Because they blew up my plea deal because you had Congress come to them, come to the US Attorney and say, "This is bullshit. We know that he was engaged in bribery because we have an FD 1023, a private confidential thing, an informant that claims that he was engaged in bribery and has evidence of it." So they blew up my plea deal, okay, because of that. And they pretend like, "Well, it was because some confusion as it relates to, you know, I had immunity." Everybody gets immunity when they do a plea deal.

• 4:27:07Speaker 06

  Why would you enter a plea deal if you didn't get immunity from the federal government that they weren't going to come back and, you know, charge you with something else? And so, they blow up the plea deal and they bring this guy in, the informant, Smirnoff. They bring him in and they say, "Okay, tell us about this bribery. Tell us about this FD 1023 that you have members of Congress out there waving around as evidence of Joe Biden's corruption." And he basically breaks down and says, "It's all bullshit. He was encouraged to do so by others. He was encouraged to do so by people in intelligence, in Russian intelligence."

• 4:27:51Speaker 06

  That's the story. Go read the story about Smirnoff, who's sitting in jail, serving a sentence for lying on FD 1023. Well, now that that story blows up, what do they do? Three days before the statute of limitation runs on these charges, they charged me with the things that they had just come to a plea with me on.

• 4:28:17Speaker 06

  Anyway, man.

• 4:28:20Speaker 06

  The laptop. Once again. You know. There are people out there that have just dined out on this, you know, the laptop. And it's become a kind of buzzword for, you know, uh, uh, corruption. Of some kind of like, uh, you know, epic, uh, you know, uh, roadmap to the, to the Biden crime family.

• 4:28:46Speaker 06

  Tell me. Other than me being a, a, uh, evidence of me being a crack addict. What the laptop. Tells you. Because not a single person.

• 4:29:01Speaker 06

  That is, at least, comes from a good place. Like you say, well, you know, 10% from the big guy. Somebody sent me an email about a deal when my dad was not vice president of the United States and when he was not president of the United States, in which they proposed, uh, if that's what they meant, that my dad, uh, the big guy would, uh, get 10% of the deal, of which I never entered into the deal with them. And never did a deal with them.

• 4:29:29Speaker 06

  It's funny how those details don't make it in.

• 4:29:33Speaker 06

  And so.

• 4:29:35Speaker 06

  You know. All of this bullshit, well, about like, for instance, like, you know, 35 former, you know, that they harp on all the time. And then it became about free speech. Well, then it became about the big cover up of the story. You know. Remember that? And they had hearings on it and they, you know, they, uh, after, um, uh, Elon bought, uh, Twitter and turned it into X and they had that Matt, whatever that reporter's name come on and he said, you know, lamented the fact that, you know, the story was taken down and the reason it was taken down is because the deep state and CIA and, you know, the, so remember, remember when the story was taken down?

• 4:30:14Speaker 06

  And the Trump administration.

• 4:30:18Speaker 06

  My dad wasn't president when the story was taken down. He wasn't vice president when the story was taken down. Trump controlled all levers of government. Twitter took down the story because it violated their own revenge porn laws. Because it was publishing pictures of me naked with other people having consensual sex, but without my consent. Which is an absolute and complete violation of any of the rules of Twitter, or even X as it stands now. That's why they took it down. And let me ask you that. Is anybody that's listening to this, if somebody stole your phone, for whatever reason, and decided that they wanted to accuse you of other things,

• 4:31:04Speaker 06

  but the way they were gonna do is they were gonna show you and your wife having sex, naked in their bedroom. Do you think they should be able to do that and put it up on X right now?

• 4:31:13Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 4:31:13Speaker 06

  And in that accuse you of other things? Say, you know, Hunter Biden accused of bribery, without anything to back it up, but then show a picture of you in a motel room, doing drugs, naked, with a woman. Does anybody have the right to do that? Do you think that X shouldn't have taken that down? Or that Twitter shouldn't have taken that down? Because I'll tell you what it did. Is it, Bannon's a genius. Because then that became the story. And that became the cover up. And that became the thing that was the great injustice.

• 4:31:57Speaker 06

  You know, which led into the whole J6 thing, and the stop the steal part of it. And if they had just let the story of Hunter Biden's laptop come out, they actually, that's where the, how the election was stolen. Is that if the corruption that the laptop proved, well, I keep going back to. What did it prove?

• 4:32:19Speaker 06

  And I keep coming back to like the idea, I don't know of anybody that is more informed in terms of the people that they have spoken to than you. Is anybody been able to tell you what Hunter Biden's laptop proves?

• 4:32:33Speaker 06

  No. I know. And so here I am, six years later, Sean, and I'm still talking about a fucking laptop that actually is not even a laptop. It's an amalgamation of concocted digital material that has been stolen from me over the course of 22 years and some of it fabricated. And all you gotta do is just add a little bit to here and there. I mean, that's what Gao did and there's tapes of it. There's tapes of Gao talking to Bannon the night before the election in 2020 in which he's talking about how they've taken the hard drive to New Zealand and they're manufacturing pictures of me with children in China. Are you serious?

• 4:33:16Speaker 06

  Yes, there's literal, they, I mean, you literally have Gao, I mean, go to the Mother Jones. You have access to that? Yeah, go to the Mother Jones. It's all unreported, but nobody listens. I mean, literally, there are tapes of Bannon, Gao and others sitting around talking about how they've stolen the laptop, how they've stolen the hard drive and how they're manufacturing images because they can do any, you can say whatever you want at this point. Go listen to the tapes. They're literal tapes.

• 4:33:43Speaker 09

  He was very close to winning outright then and shutting down Trump. That the hard drive from hell stopped his momentum.

• 4:33:58Speaker 09

  Then the other thing is the way we blunted, the way we drove up Biden's negatives, the only thing that stopped the momentum was the hard drive from hell, right? And two parts of that were Luda's editorial creativity over the pictures. And really the CCP involvement, that's what shocked the American people. Sleepy Joe, he never drove up Biden's negatives. It was only when we got the hard drive and got it to you that in the post. If you, if you look, here's what, here's where the Bidens fucked up. From the day the Post story came out and then you started pumping out, we got you the stuff and you started just dumping it out and then the internet started picking up and they suppressed it.

• 4:34:40Speaker 09

  Remember, the best thing that happened to us was Twitter and Facebook suppressing it because then everybody wants to see it. Remember, we hammered this guy every day for 10 days with the worst pictures in the world, drug addicts, taking money from CCP, from Chinese spies, no response, nothing. And the negatives just keep going up because people are sitting there going, I didn't know that about Joe Biden, but Joe Biden, nobody, not one person came out and said, those pictures are not true, right? Nobody came out and said, anything you're saying is not true. Even the wildest allegations, when Trump got COVID and when Trump had that first debate within that one week period, Biden could have put him away, the campaign would have been over.

• 4:35:24Speaker 09

  Biden would have won with 500 electoral votes, but they didn't do it and we were able to stop him. So now, I'm not saying Trump's gonna win, but we have a fighting chance.

• 4:35:33Shawn Ryan?

  These are legit?

• 4:35:34Speaker 09

  A ton of, 100% legit, 100%.

• 4:35:37Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I would believe Mother Jones, but they wrote a hit piece on me that's complete bullshit.

• 4:35:42Speaker 09

  By the way, by the way, the tapes exist and I will, I will send you the link to the, to the, to the Mother Jones article with the physical tapes that have never, no one's ever denied actually exist. By the way, with Bannon's partner, Miles Kwak, who, who by the way is, you know, in, in prison for the next, you know, 45 years from stealing over 1.8 billion dollars from, from Chinese dissidents.

• 4:36:14Shawn Ryan?

  Do you know why this shit's...

• 4:36:16Speaker 09

  He's the one that let his fight, his apartment on fire when the FBI raided it in the Sherry, Netherlands or on Park Avenue.

• 4:36:23Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, what?

• 4:36:25Speaker 09

  Yeah, they raided his, they raided his apartment. He had the penthouse, it's Sherry, Netherlands or, you know, that one right on Park Avenue. And the FBI came in and all of the, all of the hard drives went up in flames and, and burned the whole penthouse apartment on Park Avenue.

• 4:36:44Speaker 06

  By the way, Steve Bannon's partner, who at the same time, at that exact same time, Steve Bannon is sitting with Jeffrey Epstein, coaching him about how he can, you know, fool the American people into the fact that he's not really a fucking pedophile. That's Steve Bannon. Who concocted this whole thing. Who put this whole thing together. And handed parts of it off to Rudy Giuliani. I mean, it's all there. Talk to Noel Dunphy, his assistant. Talk to, talk to Leopards. I mean, Leopards says the entire Russia thing, the entire thing about Ukraine and bribery and the corruption of the Biden family.

• 4:37:28Speaker 06

  He was the guy that, that Giuliani literally deputized, that Trump literally deputized, to go to Ukraine and dig up dirt on me. Talk to Leopards. Leopards says it's all bullshit. We made it all up. And we sat there with John Solomon and, and Ken Vogel of the New York Times and, and Rudy and, what's his name? I'm gonna get names wrong and I'm gonna get sued. But my, my, my point is, it's all there. I'm not making any of this shit up. Bob Costello. They literally went to Ukraine

• 4:38:13Speaker 06

  and took a dossier and filmed it with OAN from a guy named Durkach, okay? Who was a known Russian GRU agent, and I swear to God, I'm not making any of this even remotely up. Who's wanted for treason. Who fled to Russia and now serves in the Duma in Russia as a Russian senator.

• 4:38:38Speaker 06

  He's the one that came up with the bullshit bribery thing. Are you fucking kidding me? No, it's a, and by the way, and this is the thing that drives me insane. You can, Rudy Giuliani with an OAN film crew with Durkatch, who is literally has been tried in abstention and convicted of treason inside of Ukraine, who has fled Russia and has made it clear that he is a Russian agent. He was sanctioned and, um, uh, and, and convicted him such a, um, or charged in the United States for being a GRU agent. That's where Giuliani was getting all of his information. He's the one that told them that Dmitry Firtash wanted to sell Hunter Biden's laptop.

• 4:39:22Speaker 06

  Five months before, um, uh, uh, five months before this, you know, uh, uh, what's his name? Ever existed, the laptop repair shop guy.

• 4:39:34Speaker 06

  Wow. And I'm, I, I, I'm, I can 100% give you each one of these things. I can give you the tapes of the Mother Jones, of the conversation between Bannon, Gal, and the, and the four or five other people that were in his apartment the night before. That's when Bannon says that, you know what we're gonna do? When he loses the election, we're just gonna say it's stolen.

• 4:40:00Speaker 06

  That's what we're gonna do. He lays out the entire, um, uh, uh, uh, Stop the Steal effort. This shit's 100% real. 100% real. It's not that 11 labs that 100% real. 100% real.

• 4:40:18Speaker 06

  100% real. And so all of this stuff exists, but you know what? Nobody gives a fuck about me in the, in the aftermath of what happened with J6. Nobody gives a fuck about a, what they, what they did in terms of what I was talking about, in terms of like the complete dehumanization of me. And so then I became the pariah by everyone. Nobody in the Democratic Party stepped up, except for maybe a couple people that, um, uh, that, that like stood by me. You wanna figure out who's your friend?

• 4:40:54Speaker 06

  Here's another gift that they gave me.

• 4:40:57Speaker 06

  I know who's really my friend. Because if you were willing to stand with me, or even be seen with me, or be associated with me in any way for a period of time,

• 4:41:10Speaker 06

  there was nothing in it for you. Absolutely zero, nothing.

• 4:41:15Speaker 06

  The biggest regret that I have is I allowed them to think that I couldn't be around my dad.

• 4:41:22Speaker 06

  Because I would rub off. Because I would bring... By the way, like, for instance, like this bullshit, you know, the cocaine in the cubby hole, in the West Wing. We were talking about it before. Like, on what fucking planet

• 4:41:43Speaker 06

  am I walking in off of West Exec Avenue with my own Secret Service detail, stopping by the cubby in the Situation Room and deciding that I'm gonna put a baggie of cocaine into the cubby hole before I make it on my way to the residence? In what world? In what world does that make even the even the most insane drug addict sense of anything? But you know how many people fucking believe that? You've had guests on here who've come and accused me of actually that being mine.

• 4:42:28Speaker 06

  But that could be... I wasn't even there! You know how much time I spent in the White House? Over the course of the four years? I'd say no more than maybe eight to 10 days a year. The entire time that my dad was in office. And this is a family that does everything together.

• 4:42:50Speaker 06

  You know how hard that was for me? Not to be there? Just to be there. For him.

• 4:42:58Speaker 06

  Like, he didn't have my brother. And then he basically virtually lost me because I allowed people to, you know... I mean, people around him that I'll never forgive for not pushing back.

• 4:43:15Speaker 06

  And then you start to think, well, you're the drug addict hunter. You're the one, you're the one that put yourself in those rooms. You're the one that allowed those pictures to be taken or took. You're the one that, you know, that allowed your stuff to be stolen or lost. You're the one that embarrassed the family. You know, so best just to stay away. Fuck that, man. You know, I figured out, you know, a while back. Is that that was exactly what they, they, uh,

• 4:44:00Speaker 06

  what they wanted. Is for me, is for me to fail, is for me to relapse. I truly believe that what they really wanted to happen is they wanted to make it impossible for my dad to emotionally even remotely mount a campaign. Or to, or to govern. Knowing that there's only one thing that he cares more about than this country and as I think everybody should, is their, is their family. It's his family. And, and I refused, I refused to allow them to do that.

• 4:44:41Speaker 06

  And I knew there was one way, bestest way to fail. Is to not figure out how to be clean and sober. For good. But I'll tell you what. They're good at it.

• 4:45:05Speaker 06

  And I sit here and I talk about like the laptop. Or I was on the board of a company, Burisma. You see what they're doing, man? I don't care what you think about anything. I don't know how you can look at what they're doing and the way in which they are profiting off the presidency. Directly profiting and directly. Don Jr. opened up a club in Georgetown called the Executive Club. And he's charging people an eight, a $500,000 initiation fee to join the club with the stated purpose of the club being it is the place where you can come and rub shoulders with the decision makers in his father's administration. Half a million dollars, the second most expensive club in the country. Are you serious?

• 4:45:49Speaker 06

  I'm 100% serious. Half a million dollars to join. So they opened a club? They opened a club and on opening night of the club, they had half the cabinet there. Of the club, half a million dollar initiation fee for a private club run and owned by Don Jr. called the Executive Club. And they state the purpose. It's the place to go to be able to be with the people that are the greatest influence within the administration, cabinet members. He has a private equity company, a private, Don Jr. has a private equity company. It's just in the New York Post, New York Times and in the Washington Post and in the Wall Street Journal and in every newspaper on page 14.

• 4:46:32Speaker 06

  Of which his private equity company has a majority, I think majority stake in a startup drone company. It's never produced a drone, has 13 or 30 employees, I don't know. They got the largest loan guarantee of $695 million that the Pentagon has ever issued. And that's just one of the companies in which he has, his private equity firm is invested that has contracts with the Pentagon. Just one.

• 4:47:01Speaker 06

  You want to talk about, they talk about me doing foreign business? What fucking foreign business are you talking about? I had a partner who was Chinese, who was part of a private equity company. And we were going to invest in natural gas in the United States, in an industry that I knew of. And it fell apart, and it didn't happen. And I worked for, on the board of a Ukrainian gas company. And as a lawyer, I represented a guy that was from Romania, for a three-month period of time. There's my foreign business. I never had any business with any foreign government, ever, ever. They're building towers in Saudi Arabia, they're building towers in the UAE, they're

• 4:47:44Speaker 06

  building, they're doing spas and golf courses and residential properties in Qatar. They're doing, they're building on government property that they bought through Jared Kushner's fucking private equity fund, a government-owned island in Albania, I think it is, and they're doing a, one of the last public spaces in Serbia, a deal directly with the government. And that's just the tip of the fucking iceberg. Well, don't forget about Gaza. And Jared Kushner is basically, not basically, has flat-out stated that Gaza is all about

• 4:48:29Speaker 06

  a real estate play. In which it is the best beachfront property in the Mediterranean. And they're going to redevelop Gaza. And where are they going to get the money to do it? They're going to get the money from the Saudi royal family, they're going to get it from the Emiratis, they're going to get it from the Qataris, they're going to get it from the Russians, they're going to get it from the oligarchs, from Blavatnik, from all of these guys. From Dmitry Firtash, who has been wanted for extradition in Australia and the United States for the past 10 years, and all of a sudden, he's off the extradition list. But by the way, he's doing a deal with Nata Gas and the Saudis and Don, as it relates to the pipeline.

• 4:49:20Speaker 06

  As Jared Kushner and what's his name, Whitkoff, who has zero experience. Everybody says that I don't have experience. I was a fucking adjunct professor at Georgetown University School of Foreign Fucking Service. I'd served on like, I don't know, 19 different boards. I was the chairman of the board of the largest humanitarian, the largest support group for the largest humanitarian organization in the world. I had traveled the world. I had been to every fucking, all the places that you were jumping from. I've been, not with a gun, but there, in the refugee camps and everywhere else. And they said that I didn't have experience? The Yale fucking educated lawyer.

• 4:50:04Speaker 06

  What experience does Don Jr. have in anything other than being handed a check in an office by his dad? Name one. Jared Kushner had the biggest real estate failure of, in the history of real estate in New York, in when he bought the 666 building on Fifth Avenue. It had to be bailed out by the Qataris when Trump was president.

• 4:50:43Speaker 06

  And we're wondering, like, whether Hunter Biden? I don't get it, man. I really don't. And I sit here and I think like, well, shouldn't that make you fucking mad? Shouldn't that make everybody mad? Forget about me. Forget about whether you think I'm a fucking, you know, crook or whatever, whatever you want to believe. They're doing it right in front of our face. I mean, the New Yorker, you know, assessment of how much money that they've made over the, in the, in the first 10 months, it's like, what, 3, 3.4 billion dollars that they can identify?

• 4:51:25Speaker 06

  And the, and the increase in the wealth of the Trump family in nine months? And by the way, it's not like we didn't, that they're not like directly telling us this, and I don't know, understand, like, if, okay. So if I give myself, or give the people...

• 4:51:45Speaker 06

  That voted for him, the widest latitude with the belief that like what you said is because they gave a shit about things, they gave about shit about the prioritization of what's wrong in the United States rather than what's wrong overseas, of us, of us taking care of vets instead of taking care of illegal immigrants, of all of the shit that you wanted me to give them the latitude to believe that that's why they voted for Donald Trump, shouldn't this make you really fucking pissed off?

• 4:52:12Shawn Ryan?

  I've been pissed off for a long fucking time.

• 4:52:16Speaker 06

  Yeah, I know, but, but I mean, I'm not just talking about you and I don't want to get you in trouble, but I can, I can like almost feel like the, the resistance from your audience of this message coming from me, but let me give you this one, he's in the fucking Epstein files, man.

• 4:52:30Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:52:31Speaker 06

  And that's the reason that we're not getting him, and it's like, like, what are we even talking about?

• 4:52:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 4:52:37Speaker 06

  Susie Wiles came out today in a Vanity Fair article, have you read that?

• 4:52:41Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 4:52:42Speaker 06

  It says that he, she, his chief of staff said that he acts like an alcoholic, and that of course he's in the Epstein files, and that Pam Bondi completely screwed this thing up, and totally screwed them all, that's his sitting chief of staff on the record in Vanity Fair that came out today, and what are we supposed to be distracted by? We're supposed to be distracted by the absolute ugliness of someone taking the barbaric murder of a beloved liberal, he's a beloved liberal, but he made like the movies of my, that made

• 4:53:22Speaker 06

  my generation, A Few Good Men, Misery, Stand By Me, When Harry Met Sally, like my God, just as an artist alone, like Jesus God, let's give the guy the, the, the reverence that he's due for, for, for, for gifting humanity the princess bride as a movie. And he says that basically he was murdered because he was infected by Trump derangement syndrome.

• 4:53:54Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, we'll throw the tweet or whatever you call it on Truth Social, I don't, um, yeah, whatever, whatever that, we'll throw it up on screen so everybody can read it. I think. The response that I saw from that was fucking horrendous and

• 4:54:13Shawn Ryan?

  and

• 4:54:15Shawn Ryan?

  I wanted to bring this up a little earlier, but you know, when you're talking because you see you seem surprised at what people believe. And I can see how you would think that from from your vantage point, from your perspective. But I'll give you the perspective of everybody else. Yeah. And so the perspective of everybody else is yes, you know, we saw, we saw, you know, whether they're true, whether they're not fucking true. I don't, I don't know. You know, I don't, I just, I just don't have the insight and I'm not, I'm not the person. I think a lot of people are painting things as fact now that are all complete bullshit. It makes it damn near fucking impossible to find what's, if there is any real truth anymore. Yeah.

• 4:55:00Shawn Ryan?

  But what we hear, you know, what we see is we see, we just see

• 4:55:07Shawn Ryan?

  corruption. Mm hmm. That's never corrected. And there are never any consequences. We see Eric Swalwell fucking Chinese spies. Still sitting in there. We see, you know, we, we saw all the corruption with Trump and you, you, whether you're, whether you believe it, whether you don't believe it, whether you think he's guilty, whether you don't think he's fucking guilty. They went at him hard. Nothing happened. Whether you believe the stuff that happened to you, whether you don't believe it, you know what I mean? Whether the laptops are real, whether it's not, what doesn't matter. Burisma stuff. Nothing happened. The stuff, you know, when your dad was president. I can't think of any examples off the top of my head. I know there's a thousand of them. I gotta stop you.

• 4:55:52Shawn Ryan?

  But I get it. But what I'm saying Hunter is like you never see, you never, whether it's true or not true, you never see any fucking accountability on the Democrat's side, on the Republican's side. I don't disagree. Right now you brought it up. Yeah. The Epstein files. Yeah. We've been talking about this shit for I don't know how many fucking years now. And, and, and, and, and Trump was a big part of that and the Republican party was a big part of that. Well, now we got the fucking presidency. We got the house and we got the fucking senate.

• 4:56:22Shawn Ryan?

  And we still have zero Epstein files, you know, and I sat right across from the fucking current director of the FBI and listened to him spew lie after fucking lie after fucking lie to me, not even realizing he was gonna get director of the FBI while he's sitting in front of me. But he did fucking get it and he told us all what he was gonna do if he did get it. I don't see anything, I don't, I don't see any differences. And, and, and so you see what I'm saying, which is just, pass the buck, pass the buck, pass the buck, this guy's guilty, this guy's guilty.

• 4:57:03Shawn Ryan?

  Never, never, I mean, we just never fucking see any accountability and so then, then it, then it becomes the political elite class, the oligarch class, which you are part of, whether you got a lot of money or not, been in politics for a long time and you, you see what I'm getting at, you see people, you see a population of people that are getting beat to shit with.

• 4:57:29Speaker 06

  The most offensive thing that you've ever said.

• 4:57:32Shawn Ryan?

  With, with, with.

• 4:57:34Speaker 06

  Oligarch, oh my god.

• 4:57:35Shawn Ryan?

  With, with.

• 4:57:36Speaker 06

  Alright, I get it, I get it. I get what you're saying, is it, is it the perception of that, but here's what I want to say to you, there is truth, John. And the fact of the matter is, is that the only people that are benefiting, is how I started off when we talked, started talking five hours ago, who's benefiting?

• 4:57:54Shawn Ryan?

  Them.

• 4:57:55Speaker 06

  Yeah. I sure as hell not.

• 4:57:58Shawn Ryan?

  I see that.

• 4:58:00Speaker 06

  And, and, but I'll sit here and answer any question, like for instance, let me just like stop you on like one thing, like Eric Swalwell, that whole thing, bullshit. There is a truth, it's bullshit, it's a total bullshit story.

• 4:58:15Shawn Ryan?

  He didn't fuck a Chinese spy.

• 4:58:17Speaker 06

  He 100% did not fuck a Chinese spy, 100% completely concocted, have, have Eric on, have Eric on the show, and I promise you, it's absolute 100% bullshit. But here's the thing, we are all a victim of our algorithms.

• 4:58:34Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 4:58:35Speaker 06

  And so are you, and so am I, and I'm not, I'm not like pointing the finger.

• 4:58:40Shawn Ryan?

  No, I'm aware and I don't take it that way.

• 4:58:41Speaker 06

  And that's my story about the people that came up to me at the, you know, screaming in my face.

• 4:58:47Speaker 06

  Is it, but there is a truth Sean, but who's benefiting? Who's benefiting from turning us all like, I mean, like at each other's throats? Of like concocting this bullshit? I'll tell you that to begin with, it's our adversaries. And then on the second, it's the people that really control these fucking things. And it's oligarch, not political people. It is the people that control billions and billions and billions of dollars. And those are the people that are benefiting. 100%. Do you think that Mark Zuckerberg gives a fucking shit about any of this?

• 4:59:31Speaker 06

  Do you think that in any way?

• 4:59:33Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 4:59:34Speaker 06

  I mean, let me point this out. There's a whistleblower, you want to talk-

• 4:59:37Shawn Ryan?

  We just watched every single tech billionaire, oligarch, whatever you want to call them. Literally switched from the Biden administration, right into the Trump administration. They're all there, they're all bitching about Trump before-

• 4:59:53Speaker 06

  But here's the thing, they hated my dad. What did we do? We brought in the whistleblower. We tried to, we, not we, I don't have anything to do with the fucking part of it. And I agree with you. Nobody's fucking held them accountable. If you really wanted to be able to hold the social media companies accountable, make them liable like everybody else for fucking killing little girls because they're driving them to suicide. I mean, they literally testified before Congress in the whistleblower and showed how they manipulated the algorithm to send our children into depression and suicidal states. And you know what? They didn't change it even when they were notified of it and even when they became aware of it. And even when they saw that people were taking their lives, teenagers, kids. They did nothing about it.

• 5:00:37Speaker 06

  And we have the facts and the data. And all of, an actual witness testimony that they did this. What did they do?

• 5:00:47Shawn Ryan?

  Not a damn thing.

• 5:00:48Speaker 06

  And did anyone hold them accountable? Anybody in Congress? You know why? Because the biggest fucking problem that we have in this country is money. Is money in our politics and money in our media? And, and, and that's nothing new. But if you want to find a common enemy, you know, I don't understand how they don't realize that people are going to pick up some fucking pitchfork soon, man.

• 5:01:13Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe they do realize it.

• 5:01:16Speaker 06

  Well, I'll tell you what. Maybe that's why they're building their bunkers and their billion-dollar yachts and their hidden structure. I don't know. But it is, at some point, I think, what I was saying before, is that there is this, there is gonna be this unholy union between radicals. That both come to the same conclusion, is that no one can be trusted. And everyone is the enemy. And chaos is the only answer. Violence is the only answer. And that's what we're being driven towards.

• 5:02:01Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm. And I really, truly believe that. But there is a truth. There is a truth about, for instance, Eric Swalwell, that I know, and I know to be a lie. There is a truth about, let me give you an example. The fucking case against Donald Trump as a related in New York was bullshit. I think it was a bullshit fucking case. I think he's a crook. I think that he, I think that he stole documents. I think that was a real case. I think he tried to overthrow our government. I think that he tried for a fucking coup. I think that was a real case. But the case in New York was bullshit.

• 5:02:44Speaker 06

  If you're gonna charge him, you should've charged about 14 other real estate magnates in New York for the same fucking shit that he's doing. Hmm. But what we do is, is that we allow ourselves to be driven by our algorithms to believe things that just are not even remotely true, and which then we all give up. Like you just said, nobody's held accountable. You know why the Biden Justice Department did not, this is, this is the explanation that I have.

• 5:03:18Speaker 06

  Why did Joe Biden not demand the release of the Epstein files? If it was such a big deal to Democrats?

• 5:03:23Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know.

• 5:03:24Speaker 06

  The same reason that Joe Biden didn't demand that they dropped the prosecution of me. Because he didn't involve himself with the Department of Justice. Because as every other president before him, other than Richard Nixon, who resigned because of it, he didn't direct the Department of Justice to do one thing or another. Why didn't Merrick Garland do it? Guess as good as mine. I don't know. But I will tell you this, is that now we're here, after we have an FBI director, a deputy FBI director, a Attorney General, and several other people that are in his cabinet, and the president himself, who largely got elected through the energy of the people that wanted

• 5:04:06Speaker 06

  to have, for absolutely the right reasons, these files released, regardless of whose names were in it.

• 5:04:16Speaker 06

  And they haven't released it, and they fought it tooth and nail, and then they had to get legislation, and then they passed the legislation, and he said, "Don't sign it, or don't vote for it," and then he said, "Go ahead and vote for it." And then we have reports that there's, what, 100 FBI agents that spent thousands and thousands of hours of scrubbing his name from the files.

• 5:04:37Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I'm sure they did.

• 5:04:39Speaker 06

  Yeah. And now, we can't trust anything that's gonna come out. And who fucking loses? The children. Not like it's, it's not like it's an insignificant thing in any way, and they talk about these, you know, these young women, didn't want a young woman? Fucking 14-year-olds. Kids. Kids, hundreds of them. Entire networks that they developed.

• 5:05:09Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think that was?

• 5:05:11Speaker 06

  What do I think that was?

• 5:05:12Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think this whole Epstein debacle was? Do you think this was a...

• 5:05:17Speaker 06

  I don't even fucking know at this point. And I really mean it. It's like, I will tell you, is that the only thing that is clear to me is this. Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump during a period of his life were fucking thick as thieves. And Donald Trump has tried to pass this off as being what Palm Beach was in the 90s. Okay? And that may be his view of it. But I've seen enough evidence of Donald Trump and his teen modeling agencies, and what he said on Howard Stern about how he can go... He would go into the back of these, you know, Miss Teen USA pageants

• 5:06:03Speaker 06

  and, you know, walk up to the girls naked. They're talking about girls when he's talking about doing that. And wonder whether or not Donald Trump, in his mind, has come up with this concoction that it was all just what they did in the 90s. It was models. I mean, that's what Michael Wolff says. Michael Wolff says that the justification in Trump's mind was, is that they were models.

• 5:06:30Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 5:06:31Speaker 06

  14, 15 years old. I mean, we have a president that has been incredibly accused by over, well over, a dozen and a half women, if not more, of sexual assault.

• 5:06:47Speaker 06

  And we're wondering whether or not, as he fights tooth and nail for the Epstein files, that all of his supporters demand it be released so that they could nail Bill Clinton to a cross.

• 5:07:02Speaker 06

  And he won't release him. Why? Out of the kindness of his heart for the people that may get hurt? Do you... Have you ever known the president to act out of anything but his own self-interest? Ever?

• 5:07:16Speaker 06

  And so we're sitting here and acting as if like, okay, I'm, I'm, I'm willing to believe that people can vote for him and support him and overlook the kind of the personal cruelty of his politics. Because by the way, according to everybody, Donald Trump is an incredibly charming person in person. He really supposedly is.

• 5:07:40Shawn Ryan?

  He is.

• 5:07:41Speaker 06

  You know, I know that he, like, I think he told my dad when he came to the White House, he's like, Joe, we would have been best of friends if it weren't for politics. And so I don't know what kind of sociopathic mind is able to do those things and then the next day say that Joe Biden is a, you know, the worst human being to have ever lived. And, um, and, and a, you know, a corrupt, senile, um, you know, criminal.

• 5:08:15Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I talked about this with Megyn Kelly too. She talks about her account on, I don't know if you remember that whole debacle that

• 5:08:22Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:08:23Shawn Ryan?

  Man, fully years ago, but she pretty much says the exact same thing.

• 5:08:27Speaker 06

  Yeah, man. And so I don't, you know, it's just where have we gotten to, man? I don't know.

• 5:08:41Shawn Ryan?

  I want to tell you something, but I don't want to offend you.

• 5:08:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:08:45Shawn Ryan?

  And, but I'm gonna say it.

• 5:08:47Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:08:49Shawn Ryan?

  You know, the thing that makes you look really guilty.

• 5:08:53Speaker 06

  Mm-hmm.

• 5:08:53Shawn Ryan?

  And after sitting here with you for six and a half hours now with the breaks and everything.

• 5:09:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:09:02Shawn Ryan?

  I find you to be a very genuine person and, um, and I believe you.

• 5:09:09Shawn Ryan?

  The thing that makes you look very guilty is the pardon. The pardon from, was it 2014 to?

• 5:09:18Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:09:19Shawn Ryan?

  What, 2024?

• 5:09:22Speaker 06

  Can I tell you why?

• 5:09:23Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:09:23Speaker 06

  Makes me look guilty? Is because I was found guilty. And that's what a pardon's for.

• 5:09:29Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. But it was a blanket pardon.

• 5:09:32Speaker 06

  Yeah, because you have to be able to go back because the charges stemmed from over seven years ago. So, they went all the way back to 2015 for my taxes. That's what I was charged with. It's now 2025. Those are the crimes that I was pardoned for. In which I pled guilty to not filing my taxes on time and incorrectly identifying business expenses as, uh, uh, uh, personal expenses as business expenses.

• 5:10:05Shawn Ryan?

  That is all it's for?

• 5:10:07Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:10:08Shawn Ryan?

  So?

• 5:10:09Speaker 06

  There's like, there's like eight different charges for over two different years, but yeah. That's what it is. Those are all that the charges are for. And then there's the gun charge that went back to 2017. So it goes back to the beginning of their investigation as it relates to my tax investigation, which is, was back to 2014, I believe. And so, 2024, it goes back 10 years. And that's the blanket pardon is for those crimes. And when you give someone a pardon, that's the pardon that you give them. And the reason to give me the pardon is this, in which I have, make no apologies for anymore.

• 5:10:44Speaker 06

  Is this, do you think that under Donald Trump, Department of Justice, that I would have gotten a fair shake? As related to what I knew that I would get a fair shake for? Which is, I believe that I would have won the appeal. And that 922 G3 is going to be ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, which would have, which would nullify my conviction. And I believe that I would have won on an appeal in the way in which they brought the tax case against me. And during that period of time, however, I would have been under the auspices of the Bureau of Federal Prisons,

• 5:11:25Speaker 06

  which is controlled by Donald Trump and controlled by Pam Bondi and controlled by the people that have been saying for over eight years at that point that I was literally the spawn of the devil. And the demand, even if it wasn't in their interest, the demand from their most vitriolic and hateful followers would have been, the same way that they blew up my plea deal, is that, that I needed to be in jail at that time. That I shouldn't be held on, on release, that I should be charged with other things, that they really are just letting me off easy.

• 5:12:08Speaker 06

  That, you know, I was engaged in bribery, or I was. You don't think that they would have used me if I was under the thumb of the federal government and the Federal Bureau of Parole to silence my dad or silence anybody in my family or silence the people around me? Because that's what they're doing right now to everybody else. And so, I don't make, I don't apologize for it. And then just poorly on a human level. My dad's 83 years old. I'm 55. Even if you think that I fucked up,

• 5:12:46Speaker 06

  even if you think that I am, there is not a, there's not a legal commentator in the world that would say to you that as a first time offender, I would have ever received a jail sentence for a nonviolent crime of owning a gun for 10 days and lying on a form or for failure to pay my taxes on time and take, after paying penalties and interest, full penalties and interest, $2.8 million.

• 5:13:17Speaker 06

  That I would have ended up serving any time, but do you think that I wouldn't have served time? That it wouldn't have been an enormous amount of pressure to do that?

• 5:13:24Shawn Ryan?

  Can I tell you what I think?

• 5:13:25Speaker 06

  And that they wouldn't have been able to violate me on a parole, that they decided that they wanted to take a pee test and, and tell me that I was, you know, a junkie? Would anybody ever believe me?

• 5:13:37Shawn Ryan?

  I think that, no, they wouldn't believe you. No, I don't think you would have get a, received a fair trial. And with that being said, I don't think anybody in the Trump family would have received a fair trial.

• 5:13:54Speaker 06

  No, I agree with you. I 100% agree with you. I do.

• 5:13:58Shawn Ryan?

  I think that we no longer have a fair and just justice department.

• 5:14:05Speaker 06

  Tell you what, man, I don't think, I, I, I, I, I won't, I won't argue that with you. I won't argue with that with you. And I, and I, I loathe to think that, that I'm in any way associated with, with that. Because that's the truth of the matter too, Sean. It's fucked up.

• 5:14:25Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 5:14:26Speaker 06

  It's fucked up and that I, you know, like that my dad gave me a pardon. You don't think that that like really makes me like feel like fuck? Like I'm the poster boy for, for that. I'm the poster boy for, you know, the, the elite son of the president who got a, who got something nobody else could possibly ever get. Simply by, by the fact of his, of his birth, no matter how much he fucked up, he got, he got away with it. And to your point, you got this guy sitting here trying to figure out how they're gonna fucking, um, uh, make ends meet to make it to the end of the week and that are getting, um, you know, it just got pulled over by some fucking state cop that's giving him a fucking hard time. And they come back and they turn on Fox News or they put on the Sean Ryan Show and here's,

• 5:15:10Speaker 06

  here's fucking Hunter Biden.

• 5:15:14Speaker 06

  Like he got a pardon, he got something I didn't. It would piss me the fuck off too. I get it. I mean, what do you want me to do?

• 5:15:23Shawn Ryan?

  Like I said, I, I hope you don't take that the wrong way.

• 5:15:25Speaker 06

  I don't take it personally at all. And it's like literally, it's one of the things I keep coming back to you about like what I, it's like, I've been forced into the, into, uh, either deciding that.

• 5:15:39Speaker 06

  I truly can't exist in any healthy way whatsoever if I gave a shit

• 5:15:48Speaker 06

  about what other people think beyond the people that I

• 5:15:55Speaker 06

  know that I owe them my respect. And that may be people that I meet, like you, the people that I watch, that I want to earn their respect, like you, like I said. I don't think there's anybody that I learned in my family that we should respect more than the people that, and I'm not blowing fucking smoke and like, you know what I mean? Like, oh, I love the, you know, I love guys that, you know, I didn't serve, or I did serve. I got kicked out of the Navy. And, but

• 5:16:26Speaker 06

  and to know

• 5:16:29Speaker 06

  that

• 5:16:32Speaker 06

  that that's the perception

• 5:16:35Speaker 06

  is that I gotta get out of bed in the morning and just try to do the fucking right thing. That's all I can do. Yeah. But I'm not going to apologize. I'm not going to apologize for, I will apologize for a lot. I will apologize to my family. I will apologize to my friend. I will apologize to the people in the community that I care about and which, you know, like, I mean, I have a lot of people that I've apologized to. I've spent, I've spent five years making amends, trying to make amends. And I still owe a lot more amends to a lot of people that I haven't been able to make amends with or had the bravery or the courage enough to do yet. And it's just personal stuff. And

• 5:17:16Speaker 06

  but what I won't apologize for is

• 5:17:22Speaker 06

  for things that I did not do. For bullshit

• 5:17:30Speaker 06

  conspiracy theories that

• 5:17:35Speaker 06

  the laptop, I won't apologize

• 5:17:39Speaker 06

  for Burisma. It may not have been, you know, the smartest thing to do in retrospect in light of the fact that they tried to impeach my father over it.

• 5:17:50Speaker 06

  But I'm not going to apologize for it.

• 5:17:54Speaker 06

  I know what I need to apologize for. I've done a lot of it and I've still got a lot to go.

• 5:18:02Speaker 06

  God, I hate, I hate. And I'm fully, fully aware of every room that I walk in. They're like, "Walk in with your guys," you know? And I see that you put together a team of people that are like, they're buttoned up. From the guy that picked me up at the airport to, you know, to Jeremy.

• 5:18:25Speaker 06

  Like, they're buttoned up guys. And I mean, you just get a sense in that. And I bet you they don't fucking think that I'm a decent human being before I walked in here. I know I walk into that room with the incredible advantage of incredibly low expectations.

• 5:18:45Speaker 06

  Because they not only think that I'm, you know, a near do well and somebody that's been given all of the advantages of the world and squandered them. But they also think that I'm sleazy on top of that. And that, you know, I'm a part of the problem. And that's, and, you know, it is a beautiful thing to be given the space to try to,

• 5:19:10Speaker 06

  give them a different impression. What do you think they think now?

• 5:19:18Speaker 06

  I don't know. I think that they think that I probably fucking talk way too much. And that they're thinking, "When is he gonna shut up? Because we wanna go home and eat dinner with our families." I think that that's what they're thinking at this point. Is that I've just literally tired them out. I have submission by verbal diarrhea. That's what I think they think. No, I don't know. You know what I think they're thinking? What? "Motherfucker, we got fooled again."

• 5:19:51Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:19:53Speaker 06

  Well, I tell you, you know, I wish that I had the energy to go one by one by the people that, I don't really mean this, you know? The people that remind me of my brother.

• 5:20:12Speaker 06

  Um.

• 5:20:15Speaker 06

  Anyway.

• 5:20:21Shawn Ryan?

  What would you say to Bo?

• 5:20:24Speaker 06

  I say to him all the time.

• 5:20:29Speaker 06

  Just talk to him all the time.

• 5:20:37Speaker 06

  Try and.

• 5:20:42Speaker 06

  You know.

• 5:20:47Speaker 06

  One thing that, um.

• 5:20:53Speaker 06

  I never, ever.

• 5:20:57Speaker 06

  Single thing that I never doubted in my life.

• 5:21:05Speaker 06

  Was the love of my brother.

• 5:21:16Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:21:21Speaker 06

  And he could beat the shit out of me and I could, you know, I mean, we were brothers. You know? I mean.

• 5:21:31Speaker 06

  I don't know. We, uh, then we fought and.

• 5:21:37Speaker 06

  And, uh. But. Never in my life, uh, you know.

• 5:21:45Speaker 06

  Would ever, ever doubt. That no matter what, uh, sorry, is that, um.

• 5:21:57Speaker 06

  That he would jump off a bridge for me.

• 5:22:13Speaker 06

  Yeah, sorry. Jesus Christ, it's been ten years. I'm still crying over it. But not bad tears, I promise you. It's uh, like, um, I feel so incredibly lucky to have that relationship and still have it. I really mean it. I still have it. I mean, that's the one thing that um, I'm positive of is that um, is that I am uh, in my best moments, I'm fully 100% connected to that. And God,

• 5:22:57Speaker 06

  what a gift. You know?

• 5:23:04Shawn Ryan?

  You talk to him often?

• 5:23:05Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, all the time. I mean, there's not a day that goes by that probably not, you know, and I don't mean in a, you know, in a melodramatic, you know, macabre way. It's just that, you know, I went through a period of time where I, I uh, did everything in my power to drown out his voice in my head. I mean, I literally, you know, I, I, I uh, in that period of time, I tried to smoke, smoke him out. Couldn't, I couldn't do it. And um, but there's never a moment, and I don't, and I, and I really don't mean it in a melodramatic way. It's never a moment that I'm not

• 5:23:49Speaker 06

  having a conversation, you know? And uh, usually, you know, he's telling me to shut up.

• 5:24:06Speaker 06

  Stop talking.

• 5:24:09Shawn Ryan?

  Have you ever gotten anything back from him?

• 5:24:11Speaker 06

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, I really mean it. I mean, I, I, I, uh, and I, I don't think this is like, I, uh, was I, I, I one hundred percent, you know? Uh, and I, and I don't mean it in like some like, you know, uh, you know cinematic, you know, ghost kind of thing like my brother's hovering over my shoulder. It's just that his voice is in my head. Like, I can hear him talking to me. And I don't mean that it's kind of coming out of left field. It's like when I have a conversation and want to figure out how to do things. It's like, you know, I can hear him. Yeah, kind of, uh, whether it's the echo of it or, you know?

• 5:24:55Speaker 06

  And there's never a time that I don't feel, um, uh, I feel the same thing about my mom. You know? Um, uh,

• 5:25:11Speaker 06

  I don't think that, that, uh, people leave us.

• 5:25:18Speaker 06

  I think that they, uh, I think that whatever that energy is, is, um, uh, is, is, becomes, uh, only discernible to us to the degree with which we're, um, try to tie ourselves in with the rest of the, uh, whatever sentient thing, and I mean everything, and, um,

• 5:25:43Speaker 06

  I don't know, I'm, now I'm getting, uh,

• 5:25:47Speaker 06

  yeah, people can truly think that,

• 5:25:52Speaker 06

  uh, I'm talking to ghosts, but no, I, I really mean it. I talk to my brother all the time.

• 5:25:56Shawn Ryan?

  I talk to him, man?

• 5:25:57Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:25:58Shawn Ryan?

  I don't give a fuck what people think.

• 5:25:59Speaker 06

  Yeah, no, I don't care. I truly don't. I'm giving you an out to be able to say, well, he was a little crazy at that point. But the, um, but yeah, I, I talk to him all the time. Talk to him all the time.

• 5:26:12Speaker 06

  I used to write to him in those moments. And just to write it down. And, uh,

• 5:26:23Speaker 06

  you know?

• 5:26:30Speaker 06

  The messages I get back aren't, you know, all sunshine and roses. A lot of it's tough love. A lot of it's telling me, you know, the only thing, what I hear from my brothers, the only thing that'll save you is radical honesty with yourself. You know?

• 5:26:56Shawn Ryan?

  And he's right, isn't he?

• 5:26:57Speaker 06

  I said to you guys out there, I said, you know, I just don't like, I, I don't feel like, I, I hope it is not coming off as like I'm like, like in any way being like defensive. But I, at the same time, want to be able to tell the truth. And the truth is, is that I fucked up a lot of shit. My life, my family, my, um, I, I created in, in, you know,

• 5:27:25Speaker 06

  you know,

• 5:27:28Speaker 06

  Jake Tapper went on some show and, and after I criticized him for the book that he wrote and he said, you know, Hunter Biden is demonstrably a scumbag. I think he used the word scumbag.

• 5:27:42Speaker 06

  Or sleazeball or something like that, who, who dated his brother's wife and cheated on her,

• 5:27:52Speaker 06

  uh, brother's widow and cheated on his wife and abandoned his children and like went through this whole list, list of things. And is a, is a known crack addict who, uh, you know, who's been a long-term addict and, you know, went through this whole fucking, you know,

• 5:28:09Speaker 06

  list of things.

• 5:28:14Speaker 06

  And, um, you know?

• 5:28:21Speaker 06

  Yeah. I was a crack addict.

• 5:28:26Speaker 06

  Showed really poor judgment. When I was addicted to drugs. I had, uh... I made real mistakes in my personal life.

• 5:28:40Speaker 06

  Never had an intention of cruelty or some kind of venal, you know? I think all of it basically out of grief and and trauma and loss and and desperation, selfishness to try to fix that whatever hole was in my, in my heart.

• 5:29:02Speaker 06

  But haven't we all? And I really mean this. Haven't we all? Lord knows I have. And, you know, I would say to people like Jake, you know?

• 5:29:15Speaker 06

  Ye cast, what's it, cast the first stone, you know?

• 5:29:20Speaker 06

  Like...

• 5:29:23Speaker 06

  Like, man? Like, who the fuck are you or anybody else for me to judge you? Now, I've had the gift of making it

• 5:29:37Speaker 06

  all for everybody to judge.

• 5:29:43Speaker 06

  I mean, the gift of like realizing that no one else's judgment defines me.

• 5:29:51Speaker 06

  I'm just honored that you gave me the space. And I really mean it. To just spend six hours. Because who the hell fucking cares, Sean? I mean, who am I? But it really means the world to me that, like, you know, when you let everybody else, but more importantly to me, it was just meant to me be able to sit with you. Thank you, man.

• 5:30:24Shawn Ryan?

  I think that's what it's all about, man. Redemption and owning your shit.

• 5:30:29Speaker 06

  Greatest story in the history of the world. The redemption story.

• 5:30:35Shawn Ryan?

  You got a hell of a story, man.

• 5:30:37Speaker 06

  Yeah, I still got a long ways to go.

• 5:30:41Shawn Ryan?

  You want to end this with a prayer?

• 5:30:43Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 5:30:43Shawn Ryan?

  You want to lead it?

• 5:30:45Speaker 06

  Well, the prayer that I always say is a Hail Mary. Because I'm a Catholic boy. So, Hail Mary, full grace, rivers with thee. Blessed art thou among women, blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for our sinners now at the hour of our death. Amen.

• 5:31:03Shawn Ryan?

  Amen.

• 5:31:04Speaker 06

  Amen. Yeah.

• 5:31:06Shawn Ryan?

  Honor.

• 5:31:07Speaker 06

  Thanks, man.

• 5:31:08Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you, man.

• 5:31:09Speaker 06

  Appreciate it.

• 5:31:10Shawn Ryan?

  What a fucking interview, dude. Thank you.

• 5:31:27Shawn Ryan?

  No matter where you're watching Sean Ryan's show from, if you get anything out of this, please like, comment, subscribe, and most importantly, share this everywhere you possibly can. And if you're feeling extra generous, please leave us a review on Apple and Spotify Podcasts.