The Young Hippies Who Hijacked a Plane

In 1972, two young hippies hijack a commercial airplane in a wild attempt to free a famous political activist from jail, setting off one of the strangest, most idealistic crimes of a radical era. Sources for this episode include: The Skies Belong to Us: Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijacking by Brendan I. Koerner “Convicted Hijacker Arrested in New Plot” (LA Times) “Black Panther Extradited to the US” (NYTimes) “Skyjacked: A Nation With No Airline Security” (CNN) Keep up with Killer Stories! Instagram: @killerstoriespodTikTok: @killerstoriespodX: @killerstorieshq Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Harvey Guillén?

  There's a specific kind of American myth we like to tell ourselves. The one where two nobodies decide they're actually somebodies and they go on a run to prove it. Think of it like a dark 1970s retelling of a pioneer story. Two people looking at a horizon they aren't allowed to touch. Convinced that if they just move fast enough and break enough rules, they could get the world to see them the way they saw themselves. In the 1970s, that horizon usually started at the airport gate. Back then, you didn't need an ID to buy a ticket. You didn't walk through a metal detector.

• 0:47Harvey Guillén?

  You just needed some luggage and the belief that a thousand feet of altitude could wash away your past. But for the two people in our story, starting over wasn't enough. They wanted to matter. They wanted to do something so loud the whole world would have to stop and listen. They were young. They were broke. And they were convinced that a grand gesture could fix a broken world. But the problem with trying to live inside a legend is that eventually, the plane has to land.

• 1:25Harvey Guillén?

  I'm Harvey Guillén, and this is Killer Stories. Ah, to be young, naive, and in love. That's where today's story starts, with two 20-something-year-old lovebirds living in San Diego, California, and Angela Davis. Yes, Angela Davis.

• 2:06Harvey Guillén?

  The Marxist, revolutionary, political activist, second-wave feminist, and all-around scholar who campaigned against the Vietnam War, fought with the Black Panthers, had possibly the world's most iconic Afro. That Angela Davis. The lovebirds are big, big fans of Angela, and Angela, in return, doesn't know they exist. The lovebirds' names are Kathy and Roger. Kathy's 20. She's pretty and has spent the past few years adrift. She grew up fast when her dad left, took on a lot of responsibility, helped her mom raise her siblings, but, once her siblings got older, she made up for her lost childhood.

• 2:49Harvey Guillén?

  Partied, experimented with drugs, and she's still kinda in that phase. She's had a hard time holding down a job, in part because, well, she steals, and she dropped out of college, sometimes sells drugs, sometimes sells her body. I get it, we've been there. She lied to get the apartment she's living in. And like many young people coming of age in the 70s, she considers herself an activist, a champion for the people, which is great. The world needs activists. But, um, well, how do I put this? Kathy is white and just decided she was a member of the Black Panthers Party after

• 3:32Harvey Guillén?

  attending one rally and basically, nothing else. A rally she went to in part because she liked the leather jackets and thought, wow, that'd be super cool. Plus, she knew it would piss off her family, much like dating Roger. Roger is 22, super handsome, and black. He's a bit more of a mystery than Kathy, like there's something bubbling under the surface. Kathy assumes it has something to do with his time overseas. He may be young, but he did three tours in Vietnam that earned him an undesirable discharge. Roger also has two children with another woman, but that's separate from Roger's

• 4:16Harvey Guillén?

  life with Kathy, which he sees as a relationship that's destined to do great things. He just doesn't know how. Until, one day, it hits him. What the next step in their relationship needs to be. It starts with a dinner at Anthony's Fish Grotto, a fancy restaurant they can't really afford. They don't know how they're gonna make rent, but Roger insists, they go. The atmosphere is beautiful. There's floor-to-ceiling windows overlooking the San Diego Bay, white tablecloths, seafood cocktails, so Kathy's thinking, something big is coming out of this evening.

• 4:59Harvey Guillén?

  She's practicing her surprise face for when the moment comes, but when Roger finally works up the courage to pop the question, Kathy doesn't need to feign surprise because he's like, will you, Kathy Kirkow, the love of my life, hijack a plane with me? And oh! Oh my god, I'm sorry. I promise I wasn't gonna get teary. Kathy says yes. She only has one question. What does she wear to a hijacking? Now, that's not exactly how Roger pitches the idea, but he does do it over dinner that night.

• 5:42Harvey Guillén?

  And Kathy really does ask him, what should she wear to a hijacking? At this point, I should probably also mention, for those of you who didn't live through this moment in time, hijacking planes is really in vogue. All the criminals are doing it, yeah. There are more than 150 plane hijackings in the United States throughout the 60s and 70s. Kathy and Roger's dinner at the Fish Grotto is barely a year out from the infamous D.B. Cooper case, who I am now finally comfortable admitting was me. No, no, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, hands up. I'm kidding, it wasn't me.

• 6:24Harvey Guillén?

  Anyway, most of the hijackings that have happened to date have been like D.B. Cooper's, ploys for ransom money, and a lot of them were successful. So Kathy and Roger's plan sounds really delusional because it is. But also, they've watched a lot of other people's delusions pay off. So they're thinking to themselves, how hard can hijacking a plane really be? All they need is an airtight plan. So, they do their due diligence. They study, they brainstorm, they put in the work. And by "they," I really mean Roger. Kathy is mostly just along for the ride.

• 7:08Harvey Guillén?

  Roger researches all the plane hijackings from the past 10 years. What went right about it, what went wrong. He looks into explosive devices they can use to take the plane and its crew hostage. And he does a bunch of recon. He gets a flight attendant friend to comp him a bunch of tickets for a routine flight from Los Angeles to San Francisco, and he uses those trips to take stock of things. To map out the airport, familiarize himself with things, study the boarding and security protocols. Ultimately, when it comes to the hijacking, Roger will be doing most of the legwork. Kathy will really just be his eyes and ears in the cabin to warn him about anything they

• 7:51Harvey Guillén?

  could throw a wrench into their plans, like an unpredictable passenger or an undercover FBI agent. Things that have been the downfall of past attempts. In May 1972, Kathy and Roger decide it's finally time to put their plan into action. No more talking, no more research, and no more seafood cocktails. It's time to hijack a plane IRL. For money, sure, that's part of it, but also for fame, for glory, and to free Angela Davis from jail. Huh?

• 8:40Speaker 01

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• 9:09Speaker 02

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• 9:40Speaker 03

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• 10:10Harvey Guillén?

  Okay, so let's rewind a bit to August 1970, two years earlier. It's long before Kathy and Roger started dating. Roger isn't even a prospect in Kathy's life yet. At a courthouse in California, three black prison inmates are put on trial for charges related to the death of a prison guard. They're known as the Soledad Brothers. And they're seen as political prisoners by many in the Black Liberation Movement, which is why their trial suddenly gets interrupted by an armed 17-year-old activist named Jonathan Jackson, a brother of one of the Soledad Brothers. Jonathan distributes weapons to two inmates already in the courthouse, who are there to

• 10:55Harvey Guillén?

  testify as witnesses. And together, they take the judge, a district attorney, and several jurors hostage. Their plan is to demand the release of the Soledad Brothers, but as the armed group tries to escape the courthouse, officials open fire on the getaway car. Four people are killed in the shootout: Jonathan, both inmates, and the judge. The whole thing becomes a flashpoint in a national debate over prison conditions, racial justice, and political radicalism. And things only intensify after Angela Davis, an outspoken supporter of the Soledad Brothers,

• 11:36Harvey Guillén?

  is placed on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted Fugitive List. Angela goes on the run, but officials eventually arrest her and charge her with murder, kidnapping, and criminal conspiracy. All because the guns used that day had been legally purchased in her name. Flash forward to 1972, and the Free Angela Davis Movement is in full swing. It's partly fueled by the fact that Angela will be tried by an all-white jury. People organize around the globe. I'm talking rallies, marches, buttons, everywhere. There are even some original songs and poems made because the movement gets the backing

• 12:21Harvey Guillén?

  of superstars like John Lennon, Nina Simone, Maya Angelou, and the Rolling Stones. It's a huge deal, and it acts as the backdrop for everything we've been talking about: our lovebirds, Kathy and Roger, and their conversation about airplane piracy over some San Diego surf and turf. One of the main reasons they want to hijack a plane is so they can use it as leverage to get Angela freed. That, and the money, and fame, and bragging rights, they're pretty confident they'll have public support. That they'll be seen as folk heroes, not criminals. Plus, their plan includes a way to evade the law completely and start a new life afterward

• 13:06Harvey Guillén?

  with basically zero consequences. Here's the idea: first, hijack the plane, then collect the ransom and free Angela from prison, then fly the plane with Angela as a passenger to North Vietnam. Get North Vietnam to grant Angela political asylum so she can stay there. Then, once that's taken care of, Kathy and Roger will show how honorable they are by donating part of their ransom money to the Vietcong as an apology for America's starring role in the bloodshed of the Vietnam War, which, remember, Roger took part in. He served three tours, so he knows firsthand how bad it was.

• 13:49Harvey Guillén?

  Here's the thing about Kathy and Roger: they're broke, but they have millionaire revolutionary taste. They can't pay their San Diego rent, but in their heads, they aren't losers, they're just victims of the capitalist machine. So the plan for the money is a classic 50/50 split. Half of the $3 million is for the cause, and they'll fly to North Vietnam and hand over a fat stack of cash to the Vietcong. It's the ultimate apology for Roger's military service, a way to buy back his soul. After making amends in North Vietnam, Kathy and Roger will say goodbye to Angela and then fly to Australia while they'll be away from the long arm of the law.

• 14:33Harvey Guillén?

  The United States won't be able to extradite them for their crimes, and they'll live happily ever after down under. The other half of the money, that's for the happily ever after in Australia, because apparently, being a champion of the people is a lot easier when you have $1.5 million in a suitcase and a beachfront view in Sydney. It's a messy mix of genuine guilt and total greed to the kind of logic that only makes sense when you're 20 and convinced the world owes you a favor.

• 15:11Harvey Guillén?

  How could anything go wrong, is the question Kathy and Roger didn't seem to ask themselves. On the morning of June 2, Kathy decides that purple pants, a pink blouse, and a retro belt she made herself is the perfect hijacking outfit. Roger, on the other hand, puts on his military uniform. And before they even leave for the airport, they get into a little tiff. Roger thinks Kathy is acting too upbeat. He's worried she's not taking things seriously enough, but at this point, there's not much he can do. He needs her. So they arrive at LAX shortly after 9:00 a.m.

• 15:55Harvey Guillén?

  I've mentioned that Kathy and Roger are a little strapped for cash. So, see, the thing is, they can't actually afford their plane tickets. They try to pay with a check, but that bounces, and Kathy's tears aren't enough to change anyone's mind, though she did assume they would be. So she and Roger end up at an airport bar, scrambling and unsure what to do next, until Kathy remembers her father bought her a round-trip flight to Seattle she hasn't used yet, and somehow she manages to trade that for two one-way tickets leaving that day.

• 16:39Harvey Guillén?

  That's how Kathy and Roger unexpectedly end up on a Western Airlines flight to Seattle, leaving at 12:50 that afternoon, not their scheduled flight to San Francisco. It's not ideal, but it's better than nothing, so the young lovers decide to celebrate with another drink at the bar. When the time finally comes, they board the plane separately, so it doesn't look like they're together, and they sit in the same seat but four rows away from each other. Kathy's a little buzz from the booze, so she starts chatting up the lady next to her, making up an elaborate backstory for herself, like she's some kind of spy.

• 17:21Harvey Guillén?

  Then she starts playing gin rummy with the guy sitting across the aisle from her, like she's an uncle at a cookout, which to me feels like she's doing too much, girl. You're doing too much. Like, be cool, you know? Don't be all uncool, Kathy. And be patient, because the actual hijacking doesn't start until the flight is almost over. When they're about 25 minutes from landing, they pass over Mount Rainier National Park, and Kathy looks up at Roger as she watches him stand up and disappear into the galley behind the little curtains, you know, the area where the flight attendants gather. It leads to the cockpit.

• 18:06Harvey Guillén?

  Kathy doesn't see what happens next, but Roger takes control of the plane by telling the pilots he's carrying a bomb inside his briefcase. He says it's not the only one onboard. He claims he has four friends in the cabin guarding more explosives, so no funny business. And the captain and his copilot take Roger at his word, because that's what they're supposed to do. They can't decide he's bluffing, because that would be plain Russian roulette with everyone's lives, including their own. So they hear Roger out, they listen to his demands, and Roger is like, "You're gonna turn this plane around and fly us to San Francisco.

• 18:50Harvey Guillén?

  When we land, I need $3 million, five parachutes, and Angela Davis waiting for me on the runway. Next stop will be North Vietnam, and then Australia." Now, like I said, pilots are trained to say yes to any requests made by hijackers, and hijackings are top of mind. At the time, it's less, "I can't believe this is happening," and more, "I can't believe this is happening again." Right, Ted? But in Roger's case, the captain can't agree to everything. The plane thereon is pretty small. It's only meant for a short trip, so the captain tells Roger, "Listen, I hear what you're saying, but the reality is, we're gonna need to refuel before San Francisco,

• 19:35Harvey Guillén?

  and we're also going to need to transfer aircrafts before thinking about flying overseas." So that's what they do. They stop in Seattle for a bit, refuel, then fly to San Francisco, where Kathy and Roger look out the window expecting to see Angela Davis waiting for them. I'm sure at this point, they can't believe how well things are going, like, their plan is actually working. But then, they learn Angela heard what they did, and she wants absolutely nothing to do with them. She basically tells them to go screw themselves, which, go figure, is actually a bit of foreshadowing.

• 20:17Harvey Guillén?

  But even though the main goal of their plan has been foiled, all is in loss for the two lovebirds. They're still in control of the plane, and if officials want to keep everyone safe, they'll have to agree to the ransom. So who cares if their hero doesn't support what they're doing? They can deal with a little egg on their face, because there's still fame and money. Just like with the plane crew, there's not a lot officials on the ground can do. Their number-one goal is to prevent deaths, which means they can try to negotiate, but they're gonna need to make concessions.

• 20:57Harvey Guillén?

  In San Francisco, Kathy and Roger watch an armored truck with a hydraulic lift unload a heavy canvas bag onto their plane. Now, they assume it's filled with $3 million they requested, which is definitely something, enough to start a new life, so while they may not be global folk heroes, they could still get their happily ever after. See, it's just that there's a lot still standing in their way. Like, for example, all the innocent people still locked on their plane. Those people thought they were taking a three-hour flight, but they've been onboard for more than seven hours at this point. Not to mention, they're terrified.

• 21:40Harvey Guillén?

  So after the money is loaded on the plane, Roger comes to an agreement with officials. He'll let half of the passengers get off the plane in San Francisco. The others will transfer to a bigger plane and continue on to the next leg of the journey, which turns out, won't be North Vietnam. It won't even be overseas. For some reason, they need to make a pit stop in New York City. And Roger agrees to let the rest of the passengers go there, if and only if the crew flies him and Kathy wherever he says, anywhere in the world.

• 22:21Harvey Guillén?

  In New York, Kathy watches the remaining passengers get off the plane. And for a second, she considers joining them. So much has gone wrong that she's having second thoughts. Maybe she can sneak away and not go to jail? Lie her way out of trouble? But as those thoughts cross her mind, Roger's voice comes over the intercom. All he says is, Kathy, you stay here. So the fantasy ends, and Kathy has to settle into her newest reality, the one where she's about to be an internationally-wanted fugitive.

• 23:06Harvey Guillén?

  Roger comes back from the cockpit and tells her they're no longer going to North Vietnam. They'll be headed to North Africa instead, Algeria, AKA a place Kathy couldn't even point to on a map.

• 23:27Speaker 04

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• 23:58Speaker 05

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• 24:24Speaker 01

  Stonefire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat, but it's perfect for your new traditions, too. I love putting out Stonefire Non with dips for board game night.

• 24:37Speaker 03

  Or with cinnamon and sugar for my book club gals. We enjoy Stonefire Non. Before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones.

• 24:44Speaker 06

  We invoke the Nameless Ones. They shall not be named. And we do stonefire pizza parties for the kids. I'm really scared right now. Stonefire, from our tradition to yours. Together, we on.

• 24:57Harvey Guillén?

  Now, what would you do if you were a 20-year-old naive activist who hijacked a plane with your 22-year-old ex-military boyfriend for a $3 million ransom? If you were that far in over your head? Well, I can tell you what Kathy and Roger do. First, they smoke a joint in first class. Then, they have stone sex in the main cabin. This plane's a rock, and we hijacked it and we're having sex in it, so don't come a-knocking. They join the Mile High Club, thankfully away from the plane crew, who, honestly, they've been through enough. Haven't these people been through enough? Kathy, Roger.

• 25:39Harvey Guillén?

  Then Kathy takes a fat nap while Roger makes two more demands. First, he wants asylum in Algeria. Well, that one's obvious. It's the only way they're not going to jail. And second, when they touch down, he wants to be greeted by one of his heroes, Eldridge Cleaver, a leader in the international branch of the Black Panthers headquartered in Algeria. But when they finally arrive in North Africa, they don't receive a warm welcome. The plane is surrounded by a dozen military vehicles, and as soon as they step out onto

• 26:19Harvey Guillén?

  the tarmac, a horde of armed soldiers demand that Roger hands over his briefcase, the one he said had a bomb in it. But that's not all they do. They also tell him to hand over the cash, the one part of the plan that seemed to go right. And soon, Roger realizes he's backed into a corner. There's nothing he can do but comply, because, as officials learn, he's been lying this whole time. There was never a bomb inside the briefcase. It was all a bluff.

• 26:59Harvey Guillén?

  As for Eldridge Cleaver, he does meet Kathy and Roger on the tarmac, but he's disappointed by what he finds. Not just because it's just kids who are clearly in way over their head, but because when he asks them about the ransom money, they tell him they handed it over to the Algerian officials. And the money is basically the whole reason Eldridge decided to meet them in the first place. So as Kathy and Roger stare into the eyes of their mutual hero, all they see staring back at them is... Disappointment. He becomes so irate that government officials have to escort him away, but not before he hands Roger his phone number.

• 27:44Harvey Guillén?

  As upset as he is, maybe they can still help each other. Now, Algerian officials aren't interested in arresting Kathy and Roger and throwing them in prison. They've eliminated the bomb threat and taken them money, so nothing else feels very pressing. They can decide what to do with Kathy and Roger later. That night, Kathy and Roger actually stay at a hotel. They can't go anywhere, and officials watch their every move, but they can still take a shower, sleep in a bed. And though the Algerian government hasn't made up their mind about what to do with these two hijackers, it's clear the people of Algeria have. They are pro Kathy and Roger.

• 28:26Harvey Guillén?

  The hotel staff and guests basically treat them like minor celebrities. And in an OJ Simpson, the Heisman winner kind of way, not the OJ Simpson owner of a glove and white Ford Bronco kind of way, they're being celebrated, not debated. Five years earlier, the Arab-Israeli war created a lot of bad blood between Algeria and the United States. So Kathy and Roger are basically seen as defectors, anti-American rebels, and that earns them a bunch of brownie points. So despite all the Ls they've taken, they go to bed that night smiling, pouring themselves a glass of red wine.

• 29:06Harvey Guillén?

  The celebration continues the next morning, when they find out they're all over the news, back home and abroad. They might not have freed Angela Davis, and they might have given away all their ransom money, but at least they're famous now. Turns out, they pulled off the longest hijacking ever on record. Within days, they're meeting the Algerian president, and after two more weeks of getting pummeled with questions about their politics and motives, they're officially granted asylum. The government even gives them a stipend to start their new life. Since they obviously couldn't go back to the States, so Roger calls up Eldridge Cleaver,

• 29:51Harvey Guillén?

  looking for a place to stay. And Eldridge helps them out, not because he likes them, because he thinks there's a chance the ransom money could still be returned to the couple, and then the Black Panthers could get a share. But that's not happening. The Algerian president returns the money to the United States. He doesn't want to keep it or give it back to Kathy and Roger. He figures that would only encourage more hijackers to come to Algeria, and he does not want that. When Eldridge finds out the money is no longer on the table, he goes nuclear.

• 30:34Harvey Guillén?

  He gets into a fight with the Algerian president that ends with Eldridge having to step down from his role as leader of the Black Panthers. But that's not the most shocking outcome. The real surprise is that Roger gets nominated to take his place. And no, I'm not kidding. Roger actually assumes a role of leader. We don't need to get into the details there. All you need to know is that he's not very good at his job, and his time at the top is short-lived, let's say that. By 1973, rumors swirl about an extradition agreement between the US and Algeria, which

• 31:15Harvey Guillén?

  threatens Kathy and Roger, as well as most other members of the Black Panthers party. So the majority of them flee to France. Kathy and Roger are one of the last ones to go. But in January 1974, more than a year and a half after their hijacking, they arrive in Paris and take on new identities. Now, at this point, Kathy and Roger's relationship has already started to go south, get sour, if you know what I mean. But things get much worse in France. Roger's anxiety and paranoia gets so bad that he checks himself into a mental health facility to be treated for PTSD.

• 31:56Harvey Guillén?

  Meanwhile, Kathy starts dating other men, which she continues doing even after Roger gets out and they move back in together. For Roger, it's all kind of tragic, especially when he turns to alcohol. A year after Kathy and Roger get to France, Roger is stumbling around the streets of Paris, three sheets to the wind. Police find him and bring him down to the station to sober up, but Roger is so drunk that he tells him his whole life story. All of it, including the part where he stole a plane with a fake bomb.

• 32:40Harvey Guillén?

  But here's the thing, Roger's real story sounds made up, so the officers don't believe him. They just think he's some drunk spewing a bunch of nonsense, and they let him go before ever speaking with the American embassy. When they finally do speak to the embassy, they realize they've made a huge mistake and launch a search to find Roger again. But by then, Roger has sobered up and told Kathy what he did, so they flee to a safe house. Weeks pass before they're finally caught. At which point, it's been almost three years since the hijacking. By the time they reach a French courtroom, the power dynamic has completely flipped.

• 33:25Harvey Guillén?

  Roger, the architect of the plan, is in such a dark mental state that he's deemed unfit to stand trial. But Kathy, Kathy embraces the spotlight. France is a country that loves a revolutionary, and Kathy is a world-class storyteller. She tells the public exactly what they want to hear. She wasn't a criminal. She was a noble warrior for the Black Panthers, who had to steal a plane to stop the bloodshed in Vietnam. And it works. The judge refuses to extradite them to America.

• 34:05Harvey Guillén?

  They're found guilty of nothing more than falsifying passports and told they just have to stay in France. They are, for all intents and purposes, free. Kathy leaves that trial not as a fugitive, but as an ingenue in the chic salons of Paris. She's rubbing elbows with philosophers and film stars who can't get enough of her rebel spirit, but Roger, Roger's a ghost. The man who planned the longest hijacking in history is now just a broken veteran drinking himself into stupor in a city where he doesn't even speak the language.

• 34:50Harvey Guillén?

  In 1978, the end comes without a bang. All we know is one day Kathy was gone. She never left France through official channels and never contacted Roger or her family again. I like to imagine the sound of a cab door slamming. Kathy tells Roger she's going out for a bit. "See you later," she says, as she disappears into the Parisian traffic. No goodbye note, no final look back. She just edited him out of her life. Roger never saw her again. No one did. Roger eventually found his way back to the States in the mid 80s.

• 35:31Harvey Guillén?

  There was no fanfare and no revolution, just an FBI arrest at the airport and a stint at a prison cell that looked nothing like those posters of Angela Davis. He spent his final years in the California sun, smoking weed and trying to write down his memories before they faded, always looking over his shoulder for a girl in purple pants who was never coming back. As for Kathy Kirkow, she never reappears. No one knows where she is, what she's doing, or if she's still alive. She became the ultimate ghost story.

• 36:13Harvey Guillén?

  She didn't just escape the law, she escaped the narrative. Somewhere out there, maybe she's listening to this right now, pouring a glass of expensive French wine and laughing that we're still talking about her. We started the day with a myth, a 1970 pioneer story about two people who thought they could outrun their past and force the world to see them as heroes. But as we've seen, the problem with legends is that they're usually written in the third person. Someone else always gets to decide if you're the hero or the villain.

• 36:53Harvey Guillén?

  For Roger Holder, the world chose villain, or worse. Footnote. He proved that no matter how many miles you fly or how many rules you break, the past has a way of catching up to you once the plane finally lands. But then, there's Kathy. She's the one part of the myth that actually came true. She didn't just outrun her past, she deleted it. She walked out of the frame of her own story and left everyone else, Roger, the FBI, and us, staring at the empty space where she used to be.

• 37:37Harvey Guillén?

  Maybe she's a ghost, or maybe she's just the only one who realized that to truly, truly start the world over, you have to be willing to leave everyone behind. Thanks for tuning in to Killer Stories, the Spotify podcast. New episodes release on Mondays. If you liked today's story and want to learn more, we drop some of our favorite sources in the episode description. Until next time, I'm Harvey Deen. Stay safe out there.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  When fall comes back around, there's a sense of a reset. And new pieces from Lululemon's fall drop are an inspiration to push your goals and elevate your routines. As your calendar fills, easy-to-layer styles meet the demands of your day. And as you challenge yourself to try even more, versatile sets transition with you. The Lululemon fall lineup brings new levels of comfort and confidence, whether you're starting something fresh or starting something over. Check out the latest arrivals in store and on lululemon.com now.

• 38:49Speaker 05

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• 39:15Speaker 07

  Stonefire Non is inspired by ancient traditions, baked on stone at blazing high heat, but it's perfect for your new traditions, too.

• 39:25Speaker 03

  I love putting out Stonefire Non with dips for board game night. Or with cinnamon and sugar for my book club gals. We enjoy Stonefire Non before the ritual summoning of the Nameless Ones.

• 39:35Speaker 06

  We invoke the Nameless Ones. They shall not be named. And we do Stonefire pizza parties for the kids.

• 39:42Speaker 07

  I'm really scared right now. Stonefire, from our tradition to yours. Together, we on.