John Leake: The Demonic Rituals to Replicate God and Mankind’s New Religion of Science

Ritual piercing of the body. The shedding of blood. The promise of salvation. John Leake explains the religion of vaccines, and why its adherents are dangerous. (00:00) The Vaccine Hesitation Heresy (14:20) The Religious Annunciation of the Vaccine (21:20) Vaccine Worship (33:58) Why Do Vaccine Developers Have Legal Immunity? (45:49) The Demonic Forces at Work in the Medical Industry Paid partnerships with: Eight Sleep: Sale extended! Get up to $400 off the new Pod 5 Ultra at https://EightSleep.com/Tucker Pure Talk: Get unlimited talk, text, and data for just $29.95/month for life -- only at https://PureTalk.com/Tucker Hallow prayer app: Get 3 months free at https://Hallow.com/Tucker Battalion Metals: Shop fair-priced gold and silver. Gain clarity and confidence in your financial future at http://battalionmetals.com/tucker Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  What's the secret to being a great host this season? Keeping things deliciously simple, like mixing Simply Cranberry into a festive drink as guests arrive, or serving up a warm mug of Simply Apple on a chilly night. That means less time behind the scenes and more time in the moment with everyone. Crafted with real fruit, Simply juices and fruit drinks make any holiday drink effortless, inviting, and completely delicious. Simply, say yes to simple.

• 0:30Tucker Carlson?

  Thank you, John, for doing this. All through the COVID experience, tragedy, I had this kind of recurring question in my mind, which no one's ever answered, and I think that you have gotten to the answer or close to the answer. And the question is this: Why were public health authorities in the United States and acting in concert with the media so intent on discouraging Americans from treating COVID? There was this persistent, very aggressive, and at times really vicious campaign to get people to stop thinking about how to treat this illness, which we were told was going to wipe out a huge percentage of humanity, and just to accept the vax. But no treatment at all, because that's fish tank cleaner, it's horse tranquilizer.

• 1:16Tucker Carlson?

  What was that? And I'm going to stand back and let you tell the story.

• 1:39Tucker Carlson?

  What was that?

• 1:40Speaker 02

  Well, the short answer is that it was to stamp out the heresy of what is called vaccine hesitation. So vaccine hesitation, there's a huge literature on it. It's a psychological analysis of all of the factors that would cause anyone, a man, a woman, a young person, to hesitate to get the vaccine. And I want to emphasize this: You Google vaccine hesitancy, you're going to get a million search results.

• 2:17Speaker 02

  So what is vaccine hesitancy? And I think it's best understood not so much in scientific terms, not in empirical scientific terms, it's a form of heresy. And this was the thing that my co-author, Dr. Peter McCullough, and I, we had conversations about this for the last five years. Why is it heresy? And conversely, why is the vaccine a kind of, in the minds of so many people, something like a savior? Well, a liberator and a savior. And I, I hope I'm not out of line by showing you this on the cover of the book. I know

• 3:02Speaker 02

  this kind of sounds like a, a, you know, plugging the book, but there's a reason for this. That, do you know what that is? I don't. That is a 20 euro silver coin issued by the Vatican in the year 2022 commemorating the COVID-19 vaccine, specifically the messenger RNA vaccine. Actually? Mm-hmm. And you'll observe the traditional Catholic iconography, the three, the Trinity. You could, you could go into, for example, the, the Art History Museum in Vienna, there's a Raphael painting, Madonna of the Meadow, and it's this tripartite figures. I think

• 3:46Speaker 02

  in Madonna in the Meadow, it's the Virgin Mary, Christ, and John the Baptist. So that three, and then here you have the, the cross. When somebody looks at that, particularly if they're Roman Catholic, they immediately have all of the iconography and all the feelings and, and thoughts. That's the most resonant image possible. For sure. So if you look at the numistica catalog, the, the coin catalog for the Vatican, it, it issues different metals and coins and so forth. It is described as a boy prepares to receive the vaccine. Not really.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  A boy prepares to receive the vaccine. This is his first vaccine.

• 4:36Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, excuse me.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  You got it.

• 4:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 4:38Speaker 02

  I mean, the grammar, the number of words, it's identical. A boy prepares to receive the Eucharist. So what Francis did with this, and I don't know if he's the guy making the decisions, is let's take the existing religious iconography, the idea of Christ the Savior, the one that will protect you, or at least your soul. And how are we supposed to interpret this, other than, well, it's the vaccine that's the Savior? So I saw that, and I thought, well, that's rather remarkable.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  I wonder if there are any other indications of this overlaying vaccine iconography on top of existing religious iconography? And I just started finding them everywhere.

• 5:35Tucker Carlson?

  Really? Well, there's that famous, not famous enough, but still famous Diego Rivera mural that I believe hangs in Detroit, painted in the 30s, which presents the vaccine as a kind of Eucharist.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Right. The, in that iteration, I think that's a funny painting, by the way. I'm glad that you mentioned that. In that iteration, it would seem that the central figure is the Virgin Mary. She has the sort of Christ child, like, in a manger. There are these different animals around the manger, like the nativity. What he's actually doing with that is the different animals around the nativity scene. There's a horse, there's a cow, I think there's a goat. That's, in the way it's described, is a reference to the serum that, back in those days, I think this was in the 30s.

• 6:32Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  And that's a reference to the serum that is, for example, extracted from horses with diphtheria. The cow is obviously smallpox. So it's taking the nativity scene, and it's making it a celebration of this great human achievement. But they're everywhere.

• 6:57Tucker Carlson?

  So. Really?

• 6:58Speaker 02

  They're, this kind of iconography, I mean, it's a big world, and there's a lot of images, obviously. But we found a church in South Africa, and I think it's a Roman Catholic church. It might be an Episcopal Church of England, but I think it's a, I should remember this. But there's a huge banner hanging from the facade that said, even the blood of Christ cannot protect you, get vaccinated. And what's interesting about this, it shows- For real? For real. Speaking of heresy. And it, the subliminal quality of this piece of propaganda is remarkable because

• 7:43Speaker 02

  blood, it's all black block script, except for the word blood, it's blood red. And then the word vaccine, the script is in blood red. So you see the equivalence, but it's not really an equivalence. There's the association of equivalence, but in fact, the vaccine is more effective than the blood of Christ in protecting the beneficiary. So what is this? This is- Well, it's shocking. I didn't know any of this. Yeah, it is shocking. Are there churches in the United States that have spread this idea? Well, I've not seen anything quite that crass, that extreme.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  And of course, this is, you know, the context, it's South Africa. Somebody at that church seems to think you have to hit people with a sledgehammer in order to get them to overcome their vaccine hesitancy. But one of the things that Dr. McCullough and I discovered was very alarming, that the so-called Biden administration, it's called the, I believe it was called the COVID Vaccine Corps, which dispersed billions of dollars to various recipients, the major sports leagues, the NFL, I think Major League Baseball, they received just an outright bribe.

• 9:10Speaker 02

  I don't see how else you can characterize this. It's just Uncle Sam is going to give you a bunch of dough and you're going to basically force this on your league. And there's a reason for that that we will get into.

• 9:28Speaker 02

  But also, the mainline Episcopal Protestant evangelical churches, Roman Catholic churches, all of their clergy receives money to, I don't know how else to put it, push the vaccine. And there were very few pastors, or priests, or rector, what was it, in the Episcopal?

• 9:53Tucker Carlson?

  Rectors.

• 9:54Speaker 02

  Rectors, who refused.

• 9:57Tucker Carlson?

  And, you know, but how, I mean, that right there strikes me as a violation, well, of the First Amendment, which prohibits state religion, but also of their duties as Christian leaders. You can't take money from the government to push something like that. I mean, I don't understand, are these people still in leadership? It was only five years ago.

• 10:16Speaker 02

  I mean, I would, I would, you're asking questions now that Peter and I have been asking for five years, and we've been profoundly puzzled by this. It's very confounding. And, you know, ultimately, well, I want to mention the NFL as well, and then the tennis league, the professional tennis league as well. So Aaron Rodgers, the Green Bay Packers quarterback, he goes on to Joe Rogan, and he describes this sort of struggle session that the NFL, that the management, the administrators of

• 11:00Speaker 02

  the Green Bay Packers put him through. Extreme isolation, shaming, I don't know if you saw the interview, but he's this kind of good-natured, tough guy, who's just sort of speaking in a matter-of-fact way with Joe Rogan. And I began to realize, whether Aaron Rodgers conceptualized this way or not, it's very apparent.

• 11:29Speaker 02

  He was perceived as being guilty of heresy. It's like, I mean, the most obvious example of this is like Martin Luther in Germany. It's like you're, I think he was a Dominican or an Augustinian friar, I can't remember which order. But he posts his theses on the door of the castle church in Wittenborg. And it's like, the game is on. Okay, you just committed heresy. You know the story, the Holy Office, the Pope himself, excommunicates him. And there's sort of no hope for him. In the case of Aaron Rodgers, I believe it's the same psychology. It's, you're a very prominent person.

• 12:14Speaker 02

  Now, in the case of Martin Luther, he's hanging around with, I think, a Saxon duke. You can't do this. If you do this, because now people are looking up to you, if you commit heresy and you get away with it, the whole stamping out of vaccine hesitancy will be imperiled. Does that make sense?

• 12:43Tucker Carlson?

  It makes absolute sense.

• 12:45Speaker 02

  So this, this, you know, just, under the thumb, just make your life as miserable as possible.

• 12:52Tucker Carlson?

  Everything serves the imperative.

• 12:54Speaker 02

  The imperative.

• 12:55Tucker Carlson?

  Which is the way organizations work. They all have an imperative. Usually the imperative is self-preservation, expansion, accumulation of power, whatever. But whatever the imperative is, whatever the goal is, everything is subservient to that. That's just, that's how people are, that's how organizations are. It doesn't answer the question, why is giving people the vaccine the only thing that matters? I think that's, and I'm jumping so far ahead in the story, and I, and I hope that you can shed some light on that question, but it all goes back to the fact that public health authorities, political leadership, clergy, everyone with any power at all in the West, not just the United States, decided the only thing that matters is getting this needle into the arms of our populations. That's it.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  That was it. Um, you know. But why? Well, let's, let's start. Sorry, I said I would shut up. I'm not.

• 13:44Tucker Carlson?

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• 16:41Speaker 02

  Let's start with the annunciation.

• 16:45Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 16:46Speaker 02

  Okay. So the annunciation happened in April of 2020. So Bill Gates makes the rounds, CNN, MSNBC. So call it "The Angel Gabriel." He makes the annunciation. He says, "You know, the world is all, you know, turned on its head and, you know, we're gonna have a hard time going back to normal and the economy is, you know, a mess." So it's a kind of depiction of the wasteland, you know?

• 17:30Speaker 02

  Fertility, the happiness of the kingdom, it's all just going straight to hell. The only way we're going to be able to go back to normal is basically when, essentially, everybody on the planet gets the vaccine. Okay, so I hope I'm not...

• 17:54Speaker 02

  Pressing on this metaphor too far, but the enunciation. So, all is bleak, the world is a mess, you know, normalcy has been completely turned on its head. We can only go back to normal. He actually uses that phrase. We can only go back to normal when everyone gets the vaccine. Well, remember, this is April of 2020. There's no, there's no, I mean, the clinical trial for the Moderna vaccine, which Moderna made with, had developed with the NIH, with Anthony Fauci's NIH, I mean, it had just gone into human trials. I say just, it actually went into human trials very quickly.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  We can talk about that as well. But how does Mr. Gates already know in April that this is going to come quickly enough, A, usually takes years to develop a new vaccine, quickly enough, and that it will be safe, and then it will be effective? Well, the answer is, he already knew, it was a fait accompli. It was a foregone conclusion. It's coming, it's coming quickly, and when everybody gets it, then and only then, will we be able to go back to normal. So, consider all of the assumptions in this proposition. It's just perfectly astonishing. The Department of Defense and Health and Human Services in July of 2020, they say,

• 19:22Speaker 02

  well, we've already inked the contract. We've already signed the contract to purchase, I can't remember how many hundred million doses, a Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. And you think, you've already written, like, it's not, we don't have it yet. It's not been developed fully. Human trials for phase two haven't even commenced. This is a fait accompli. It's already been decided, and it's already been decided by the second richest man in the world, that everybody's gonna get it. So, it's done. It's a done deal.

• 20:04Speaker 02

  So when Dr. Peter McCullough writes an editorial in The Hill in August of 2020, saying, "This is just a big gamble. Our public health authorities, our military, our Health and Human Services, they've all decided that this is coming, but it's a complete gamble. This is a new technology. It's a genetic technology. We don't know the long-term effects. We don't know how it's going to affect children." This is a gamble. And what happened to McCullough when he started talking this way?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Same thing with Aaron Rodgers. Relentless persecution. Relentless. Fired from his job at a major university hospital. Sued. All of his editorships of various academic journals pulled. His professorships pulled. Just canceled, annihilated, sued, encumbered with attorneys, you know, the whole thing. So you're probably asking, okay, where is all of this going? Let me just give you one more example to make my point. I think professional athletes

• 21:28Speaker 02

  are considered, particularly in the eyes of young men, who are potentially the most dangerous people to those in power. Like, if the young guys kind of get together and say, "We're not putting up with this," you know, then we've really got a problem, because they're harder to control. So I think the attitude of professional sportsmen is of particular interest. So Novak Djokovic has recovered from COVID-19. He had the illness. It was symptomatic. PCR confirmed. He's done. He got through it. It's not surprising that

• 22:10Speaker 02

  a man of his physical conditioning got through it without a problem, but he's done. He's body has been infected. His immune system has mounted a response. It's overcome the infectious agent, and he's recovered. There's no better immunity than that.

• 22:31Speaker 02

  I mean, if you want to understand how vaccines work in theory and in practice, it is to induce the body's immune system or stimulate the body's immune system to respond to an invading, uh, microorganism. So there's no better vaccine than actually getting through the illness. Why do we have vaccines? The, the thought going back to Jenner is there are diseases which are extremely dangerous, which could cause horrible disease and, and mortality. The idea of a vaccine is induce natural immunity without putting the recipient through

• 23:16Speaker 02

  the trials and, and, and the danger and possible death that he would experience if he just got the bug. Okay. Does that make sense? Of course it does. So this proclamation, vaccine immunity for COVID-19, it's better than natural immunity. That is prima facie, totally preposterous and absurd. No one that's ever spent any time studying immunology would believe that for one second. So no epidemiologist could believe that? No immunologist. Well, well, how could you? I mean, it just, on the face of it, is totally preposterous, but, but this is what we were told.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Now, it's very interesting because I immediately perceived this just from reading a textbook of immunology. So I knew, like, this is, on the face of it, insane. It's only been in the last few weeks, I mean, I mean, the last few weeks, here we are kind of getting to- In 2025? In 2025, that Sanjay Gupta and Paul Offit, who's a very prominent vacci- vaccinologist-

• 24:37Speaker 02

  Had made the rounds and said, you know something, that really wasn't correct to smear natural immunity in the case of COVID-19. That technically wasn't true. How could those men still have jobs in medicine?

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• 27:10Tucker Carlson?

  Those are the basics. I don't know. That's, to me, it's really, these are social questions. It's questions about the system in which we live. How could you defend a system that allows that level of dishonesty and levies no penalty against people who promote lies? I just don't understand that.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Because the factual truth of the matter is secondary, perhaps even tertiary, tertiary, is secondary, perhaps even a distant third place to, to the orthodoxy, to maintaining the orthodoxy. And, and what I wanna, you know, so I'm, I'm telling you the story, I mean, realizing this is something that came about through, I mean, we're now five years into this. Years of reflection and, and conversation and debate with, with my co-author, Dr. Peter McCullough.

• 28:09Speaker 02

  And so the question is, um, could it be that we're constantly being told, follow the science? Science is the thing that governs rational decision-making. We're always being told that. But I think the big realization is most human affairs and decision-making, it's actually not outside of something like Newtonian mechanics, like the weights and balances on an aircraft, or engineering a building, or, you know, all of the things in which mechanical forces

• 28:51Speaker 02

  can be measured and engineered in accordance with the, the force that's being exerted on it. Apart from, let's keep it simple, Newtonian mechanics, there's so much in human existence, the way the body works, the mysteries of, of... Why do some people get sick? Why do some people don't? Why do some people live longer than others? All of these questions, we call it medical science, but in fact, it is so multifactorial. There are so many different known and unknown factors at play that none of this can be measured.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  So what the medical mind has done is, I think perhaps, without even being fully conscious of it, it's basically adopted orthodoxies, a doctrinal view of medicine. And if you, if you look at the history-

• 29:56Tucker Carlson?

  Can I just ask you to pause? I hope that people watching this, if they didn't fully understand what you just said, will rewind it and listen to that again. That's the, that's the best explanation I've ever heard for what's gone wrong, what you just said, right there.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  One starts with presuppositions, and then that's how you interpret the world. Your interpretive framework begins with your presuppositions, and that's how you actually view the world. Now, I come out, my formal training was in philosophy, and this was, I mean, I won't bore the audience with rehashing academic philosophical debate, but there was a very, very big debate in the 18th century between what philosophers called empiricism, the foremost representative of this was David Hume, and then rationalism, the foremost representative being Descartes, Rene Descartes.

• 30:55Speaker 02

  So Immanuel Kant, this sort of unusually scholarly guy living in Koenigsberg, Germany, which back then was part of Prussia, it was actually a Hanzah city, a free city in the Hanzian League, very, very thoughtful, contemplative guy. I mean, apparently, that's kind of all he did was contemplate. And he came to the conclusion, which he presented in a book called The Critique of Pure Reason, that in fact, it's not, it's a combination of both. In order to interpret the world- To make any sense of it at all. It's true that we have sensory data coming in and you

• 31:36Speaker 02

  can pay attention to it and observe patterns, but you can't really interpret it unless you have certain categories that are already in your mind.

• 31:45Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly. This was our breakfast conversation this morning and it, you know, it has such effects on the way we live and understand things.

• 31:52Speaker 02

  It, it does. And, and so, you know, we live in a, in a world now in which, um, I think an increasing number of Americans, of, of our citizenry, those who are, are awake and have some sense that paying attention, if they're paying attention, if they have been paying attention for the last few years, and COVID-19 is an interesting story because I think what happened with COVID-19, much of the fraud that was presented to us was so extreme and so crass that it prompted, it sort of, Kant talked about reading David

• 32:32Speaker 02

  Hume. He said, "It awakened me from my dogmatic slumber." And, and, and I like that phrase. It's like, people began to think, "Our government is acting so weird." And people with any familiarity, for example, with immunology, um, I hope I'm, can say something slightly vulgar, um, they're thinking, "This is such colossal bullshit that, like, what is the government doing? What, what is this weird priesthood of vaccinologists telling us? It's just, it just can't be true." So, I think that awakened a lot of people from their dogmatic slumber

• 33:13Speaker 02

  about our institutions. And now we're in this weird moment where a lot of American people have started to view the US government in a way that a, a wife with a philandering husband might start to view his representations. Like, she's caught him 10 times running around on her. He swears up and down that he's seen the light, that he, he tells the truth, that, you know, he's sworn off the girls. But at that point, even if he has sworn off the girls, the trust has been totally demolished.

• 33:55Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 33:56Speaker 02

  So, we're in a weird, very unhappy moment right now.

• 34:01Speaker 02

  And which- Well put. In which- Weird and unhappy. That's exactly right. In which, we just don't believe anything that our institutions tell us. And, and I don't rejoice at that. I don't see how this republic is going to survive if we don't have some faith in our institutions. I agree completely. But the question is, how can it be won back? Anyway, that's, that's another question. Um, so, um, vaccines, like other things that we've seen in medical history, um, are now an object of orthodoxy.

• 34:43Speaker 02

  And you go to medical school, you read your textbooks, you tend your lectures, and you are told, "This is the reality of this product, of this technology, and that's it. It's axiomatic. There's no questioning it. There's no examining it. There's no critically evaluating it. There's no even going back just to ask, "Well, is it optimized?" I mean, so a car manufacturer could say, "Well, it's axiomatic that a car has to have functioning brakes." And you say, "Well, are they optimized brakes? Are the materials, is, are the calipers, is all of that the best brakes

• 35:27Speaker 02

  that we could put on a car to make sure that a good reaction time? The driver's not drunk. If he hits the brakes, the car's gonna stop." Are they the best brakes? Well, you can't ask that about vaccines. You, you can't say, "Um, well, some of these vaccines, you know, they go back to the 1930s when they were developed. Are they optimized?" You can't even ask that. So what is that telling us? The other thing is, don't ask any questions.

• 36:01Speaker 02

  And observe that since 1986, the vaccine manufacturers have received full liability immunity in the event that their products injure or kill.

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• 37:22Speaker 00

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• 38:20Speaker 02

  So, this is a very notable moment in this story that I found rather stunning. So, that 1986 Vaccine Injury Act was questioned in court. The case was Bruzowitz versus Wyeth. There was a girl who was badly injured, I believe it was a pertussis vaccine, developed encephalitis, severe brain damage, basically destroyed the child for the rest of her life. So, the parents sue Wyeth, which had in the interim been acquired by, I'm not going to

• 39:03Speaker 02

  say who they'd been acquired by, I don't want to risk saying the wrong, but Wyeth had been acquired by one of the major pharmaceutical companies. The case was Bruzowitz versus Wyeth. And the question was, and it went to the Supreme Court, is the liability protection provided by the 1986 Vaccine Injury Act, Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, is that constitutional? So, the court ruled in favor of Wyeth. And Mr. and Mrs. Bruzowitz were told, you know, "Sorry, there's nothing that can be done. The act is upheld." But there was a dissenting justice. It was Justice Sotomayor.

• 39:48Speaker 02

  And she wrote a dissenting opinion. And it's an excellently reasoned dissenting opinion. It shows how far the liberal mind has come since 2010. She writes the most reasonable, sensible dissenting view of vaccines. And what she says is liability, product liability, being subject to tort litigation, is the primary incentive for optimizing the safety and the efficacy of the product. If you just tell somebody, oh, looks great, you know, it's been around for 30 years. Cool, everyone has to get it, zero liability. What is the human nature being what it is?

• 40:33Speaker 02

  What's the incentive to improve it?

• 40:35Tucker Carlson?

  There is any.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  None. I mean, what are we to expect? The CEO of Pfizer, which has very long civil and criminal rap sheet for fraud, for concealing bad safety data, for overstating efficacy? Are we to believe that suddenly the corporate board of Pfizer is going to develop such a strong conscientious approach to business? That they're just going to say, well, we don't have any liability, but I think we ought to just get busy optimizing it anyway? It's not a realistic...

• 41:18Tucker Carlson?

  No, it's not. It's not. People respond to the systems in which they live and work. So I'm not even blaming Pfizer, though, you know, obviously I'm opposed to Pfizer on every level. But it's not Pfizer's fault that that's the law passed by Congress.

• 41:33Speaker 02

  Right. Right. So, I mean, this is our story. We started off, a first phase of this was something that hit Dr. McCullough so hard. And there's an interesting coincidence here. I had heard about him, I had heard about his Senate testimony on November the 19th, 2020. A very good man. Senator Ron Johnson organized Senate testimony, a Senate hearing.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  To discuss the question of early treatment, is there anything with a good safety profile that could possibly help to keep people from falling badly ill, going to hospital and possibly dying in hospital? That's what doctors do. Is there anything that we could do to help? Now, the first principle is safety, but what these guys were looking at were FDA-approved drugs with some of the best safety profiles, you know, in the business. Hydroxychloroquine, it was FDA-approved in 1956. There's a wide range of indications for it.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  The most common one in the States for decades was rheumatoid arthritis. People had taken hydroxychloroquine against rheumatoid arthritis for a decade and suddenly were told that it's dangerous? So it was actually the eye doctors, the retina doctors, that first recognized that's not true. Because one of the things that retina doctors have to look out for is if someone has been taking hydroxychloroquine every day for over a decade for treating rheumatoid arthritis,

• 43:27Speaker 02

  sometimes retinal doctors will see a toxicity that starts to affect the retina. Okay? Every day for over 10 years. We're talking a five-day course of hydroxychloroquine. So this is, again, this is absurd. And one of the things that I think you've talked about, you've touched on in your other programs, is a tyrant will often, and where tyranny comes from in the human mind and how it develops and takes over institutions is a subject we could discuss.

• 44:09Speaker 02

  But one of the things the tyrant does is insists on total absurdities. And what happens to the people...

• 44:19Speaker 02

  Is they either accept that it's patently ridiculous, or they become so demoralized that the government is making this assertion that they just give up. It's like, okay, um, you know, I, I guess I'm just going to have to tune all of this out and, you know, go surfing in Mexico or something like just forget it. It's, and I think that that's actually intentional. So I don't really like partisan politics, but remember that this is happening during the Biden administration when the first vaccine mandates get underway.

• 45:01Speaker 02

  So you look at the Biden administration and starting with the president himself. I mean, we're told that he's sharp as a tack. So either you come to accept that and you think, well, you know, I, I guess he's, you know, he's, he's sharp as a tack, I guess. I mean, that's what we're being told. Or you're so demoralized by that monstrous absurdity that you just say, I guess we're done. I mean, I guess the republic is finished, that there are people apparently behind the scenes pulling the strings, the marionettes that run the show. I don't know who the hell they are. I don't need to run afoul of them, so I'm done.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  I'm, I'm checking out. And I, I think this vaccine ideology and religion that has been erected, it's a species of this just demoralizing anybody that asks questions. We're going to eliminate the inquisitive mind from the public.

• 46:04Tucker Carlson?

  And it's also, I agree with everything you're saying, and I think it's profound. It's not just on display during COVID. It's just like a feature of tyranny always and everywhere. It's the basis of the novel 1984. But I think it's also worth saying that when you participate in these humiliation rituals and when you go along with it, you change. There's something about you that dies.

• 46:26Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 46:27Tucker Carlson?

  You are diminished and, you know, you hope it's not permanent, but it seems to be, but whatever, permanent or not, it's absolutely real and people who went along with that are different people.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Well, this takes us to the big theme. So I did, I did want to quickly mention Djokovic just to give you an even more luminous illustration of this. So he gets through COVID. It's PCR confirmed, he's fine. The Australian authorities give him the green light. They say you can get on a plane and fly across the Pacific to Sydney to participate in the 2022 Australian Open. Okay. Well, you know, you've flown to Australia. I mean, it's kind of, it's not exactly the most pleasant experience, even if you're in first class. It's very long.

• 47:22Speaker 02

  It's, it's so long. And you're going through all of these time zones and your internal clock is turned on its head. And I mean, it's kind of a rough voyage. It's not what Captain Cook went through, but it's, you know, it kind of sucks. So just consider the psychology of this. You're a professional tennis player. You've been given the green light because your COVID recovered, you can compete. And you had to go through a bunch of hurly burly in order to get to that point. You get on the plane, you relax, you take a deep breath, you start thinking about your game. What are you going to do when you get to Sydney? You know, who are you competing against? And this is what's running through

• 48:05Speaker 02

  your mind. You then arrive in Sydney, you get off to clear passport control and customs and you're pulled aside and they say, you know something, we've decided to resent that special dispensation to you. You're gonna have Upon landing, he hears this? Upon landing, you're gonna have to go into quarantine. So I don't see any way of characterizing this apart from sadism. That was a sadistic action. That was turning the screws on him. And then one of these people that participates in this, I remember one of the, the most revolted I've ever felt was this BBC reporter.

• 48:56Speaker 02

  In the most condescending, smarmy, repugnant way, then does a struggle session interview with Djokovic. Um, are you really going to stake your entire career? You could be the greatest ever. You could be the GOAT, Djokovic. Are you really prepared to set all of that aside just so you don't have to receive the vaccine?

• 49:30Tucker Carlson?

  Bow down before me and all of this will be yours.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  It's true. Well, there you go. All right. So you're seeing where this is headed?

• 49:36Tucker Carlson?

  Yes. I saw it then. Bow down before me and all of this will be yours. This is totally the oldest offer there is.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  So, you know, I grew up in the Episcopal Church. I didn't really take religion seriously.

• 49:52Tucker Carlson?

  Well, it's not a serious religion. I grew up in it too, I know.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  I started getting interested in, kind of as a scholarly, you know, the Hellenic Greek in which the Bible's written. I kind of came at it more from a philosophical approach and the deeply religious concepts were something I hadn't spent a lot of time with. This contrasted me with Dr. McCullough. He's a very religious person. And we're having dinner one night at his house and he says, John, how do you explain this? He said, I don't think, I mean, all these guys like money.

• 50:41Speaker 02

  Everybody likes money. Money's fun, whatever. But I don't think money is sufficient to explain this.

• 50:49Tucker Carlson?

  I agree completely.

• 50:50Speaker 02

  He said, there must... There must be something else.

• 50:56Tucker Carlson?

  That this is the fabled red pill when you realize it's not really about bribery.

• 51:03Tucker Carlson?

  I mean, that is heavy.

• 51:04Speaker 02

  Well, let's put it this way. If you trickle down the pyramid, I think a lot of your infantry.

• 51:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  They're like, oh, money, you know.

• 51:14Tucker Carlson?

  You pay off the guards. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah.

• 51:16Speaker 02

  I could use that, you know. But you start getting to the top, you know, to the inner

• 51:23Speaker 02

  kind of presidium of this thing.

• 51:25Tucker Carlson?

  Are they bribing Bill Gates?

• 51:28Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:29Tucker Carlson?

  Right. Exactly.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  So, um, but what is it? Like, like, what, like, what are we bumping up against?

• 51:38Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 51:38Speaker 02

  And we can't quite see it. I mean, I remember.

• 51:41Tucker Carlson?

  I've been obsessed with this for five years. All this other stuff is just, these are just symptoms of something very deep.

• 51:48Speaker 02

  It's, it's true. So, um, um, I am, my first interview with Peter McCullough.

• 51:56Speaker 02

  Buddy of mine has a studio down, not, not too far from the hospital where he was at the time, vice president of, of, uh, of internal medicine. Now, he was on the way out, like they were about to scoot him out. No, actually, he'd already lost his job as vice president of internal medicine at Baylor University. He then got a job at what was called Hart Place, which was, happened to be on the Baylor campus, but a different institution. He was about to lose his job at Hart Place. But at the moment, he was still there as a cardiologist. And he came down to this little studio that belongs to a friend of mine.

• 52:35Speaker 02

  And we shot this beautiful interview, the lighting, the camera, the audio. I mean, it was just absolute prone. And I removed myself from the interview. It's just like this chiaroscuro lighting on, on Dr. McCullough. He's wearing a beautifully tailored suit and he was just on it. I mean, every question cites all of the peer reviewed literature. Um, you know, is totally circumspect in everything. Every remark, every, no speculation. Just the facts supported by the evidence cited.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  I put it on my YouTube channel and the studio, the guy that ran the studio, he had some friends in the independent media that helped to kind of get this thing going. I mean, he distributed the tape to the guys at The Blaze, the guys at, um, I can't remember, a bunch of independent media, um, podcasters and networks and stuff. So this thing starts to go viral and I'm thinking, well, this is great. I mean, he spoke very cautiously and he spoke very well and about four hours later, YouTube takes it down with no explanation.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  So I called Dr. McCullough and I said, "We've just bumped into something that is really big and it's really dark. It's like a black hole, like you, you know how you see a black hole in space? It's actually light is bending into it. You can't see it through an optical telescope, but what you can see is that the gravitation of the black hole is so strong that it's actually warping time-space so that light is bending into it." I said, "It's like we've just bumped into a black hole. We can't see it, but we know it's there. What the hell is it?" And so this is actually what began the discussion.

• 54:39Speaker 02

  And ultimately, I don't see any other conclusion that's plausible, and I'm not saying this is the conclusion. I try and stay within the realm of physics and empirical observation. So I'll ask you, how else could you explain it other than what you just said a moment ago? This appears to be-

• 55:02Tucker Carlson?

  No, you go from physics to metaphysics the more you think about it.

• 55:04Speaker 02

  That's it. So that's-

• 55:08Speaker 02

  That's what I told Peter. I said, I think we're going to have to leave the realm of physics and enter the realm of metaphysics, even though it's something I I'm not comfortable doing.

• 55:19Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly how I think if you grew up Episcopalian, like, the one thing you don't want to talk about is, uh, you know, the supernatural. You just don't.

• 55:28Speaker 02

  It's true.

• 55:28Tucker Carlson?

  It's de-emphasized, it's embarrassing, there's a kind of social stigma to it, were you handling snakes in your trailer park? I mean, there's just a whole suite of disincentives to even think about stuff like that. It's kind of interesting. But I feel you, I feel you on this, yes.

• 55:44Speaker 02

  Well, so I grew up in the Bible Belt. I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and, um, this was the era in the eighties of a guy named Robert Tilden. He was this completely bizarre charlatan who would speak in tongues and and it would always end every, um, uh, episode by saying, "By the way, if you send me a check and close a prayer with it, I'll see to it that your prayer is answered." Now, the bigger the check, um, you know, I'm not saying that, you know, my intercession is necessarily going to be affected by the sum, but, you know, it might well be. So this is the era in which, in

• 56:29Speaker 02

  which I agree, just complete-

• 56:31Tucker Carlson?

  True corruption, yeah.

• 56:32Speaker 02

  Just total charlatans, false prophets, wolves and sheep's clothing, um, guys who themselves weren't in control of their, you know, personal lives, kind of masking all of this, hiding it from themselves with, um, this embrace of religiosity. So, and I remember my mother, who grew up in the Episcopal Church, just saying, "This is just, the way these guys wear their religion on their sleeves, it's, it's, it's just so unseemly." And so this, this is what I grew up in.

• 57:04Tucker Carlson?

  I, I, I know precisely what you're talking about, yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  So-

• 57:09Tucker Carlson?

  Not our kind of people.

• 57:11Speaker 02

  No. So, I thought, all right, you know, kind of kicking and screaming, well, let's enter the realm of metaphysics. So, what I did was, when I was in graduate school, I, just because he was canonical, I, I read the novels of, of Dostoevsky.

• 57:27Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, oh.

• 57:31Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  So I was like, I'm gonna have to go back.

• 57:34Tucker Carlson?

  You read The Grand Inquisitor in the middle of the Brothers K.

• 57:36Speaker 02

  All right, so there it is.

• 57:37Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, you read that and you're like, first of all, this is a truly deep culture. This is not a gas station with nuclear weapons.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  No.

• 57:46Tucker Carlson?

  This is like, wow.

• 57:48Speaker 02

  No, and remember, remember, he himself had done 10 years of hard time.

• 57:53Tucker Carlson?

  He faced a false execution.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Right, yeah, right. I remember reviewing that and thinking, God, that's hard. It's like eight months of solitary, then talk about sadism. Like, talk about Djokovic is, you know, flying first class to Sydney and then he's arrives and it's like, okay, we have something in store for you. It's like you're gonna face death and then it's called off at the last second. It's just terror.

• 58:22Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, after, you know, marching all the way from Siberia to Moscow, takes like two months, and then you get there like, we're gonna execute you and then, oh, just kidding? No, it's heavy.

• 58:32Speaker 02

  And then, um, and then, you know, the, you know, we were talking earlier, like the, the, the, just the misery of being separated from, from women for months on end. He's then sent to six years of military service in some provincial town in S-. It's like, we're just not going to end the punishment for attending some liberal, you know, you know, group of guys talking about the latest ideas out of Germany. Like, we are going to make you really suffer for this. So it's not that, it's not that Dostoevsky hadn't experienced this on his person.

• 59:11Tucker Carlson?

  He had.

• 59:12Speaker 02

  He knows what he's talking about. Okay, so The Grand Inquisitor. So for those of your audience that are on, this is what I was gonna talk, you're a step ahead of me. So, Aloïsia, the youngest boy of the Brothers Karamazov.

• 59:28Tucker Carlson?

  This is a scene within the novel.

• 59:30Speaker 02

  Right, right. So he's talking with his brother Ivan, who is this sort of rational imperialist, empiricist, who is reading all these ideas out of France and Germany. I mean, I think it's probably around the year 1860.

• 59:45Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  So.

• 59:48Speaker 02

  Ivan says, "I have a story for you." And I think it's kind of charming. I think it's kind of original. It has a certain flair and it's almost in a playful way. He says, "So, second coming of Christ, he drops down into Sevilla, Spain in the midst of the Inquisition, the dark days of the Inquisition." He's walking down the street around the old Sevilla cathedral. He's sort of blessing people and groups are gathering around him and, "Oh, my goodness, you know, he's returned in Sevilla, Spain during the Inquisition of all places."

• 1:00:28Speaker 02

  Suddenly, the Grand Inquisitor himself is drawn out of his office, goes down to the square in front of the cathedral and says, "Arrest that man." "Arrest him. Arrest him. He's an impostor." So, this is where it has such literary power. So, the Inquisitor puts Jesus in jail and he comes into the cell and he looks at him and he says, "Is it really you?" And Jesus sort of looks at him and I think he just simply answers yes or nods.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  He says, "It really is you." This is, this is just remarkable. He says, "But I always kind of thought this might happen and so I have a message for you." "I cannot allow you to come walking around on earth, like talking to people." He said, "It's, it's not, it's not something that we, the church, or the rulers of the church can allow." And he says, "And I'm gonna be fair and I'm gonna tell you why." He says, "Do you remember back when you were presented with these temptations by the

• 1:01:54Speaker 02

  opposer?" Do you remember? Yeah. He says, "You see, what he offered to you was the ability to assume responsibility for all of these people to make..."

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Rocks into bread and water into wine and all you had to do was just make the deal and you could have then assumed all worldly power in order to just take care of these fools, these humans with all of their flaws and their ignorance and their limitations, you could have just taken care of them, but instead you chose to ask of them to maintain their responsibility and their free will. This was an absurd decision that you made.

• 1:02:50Speaker 02

  Humanity, humanity is not capable of assuming this burden. You asked too much. So what we are going to do is we are going to do the deal that you should have taken. We're going to take care of them. We're going to make sure that they're provided for and in return, they shall give us their obedience, because it's obedience that we need in order to run this ship properly. So that's why I'm arresting you and that's why you're not going to see the light of day under my watch.

• 1:03:31Speaker 02

  So, it's a great scene. What do you have to say to that? So in the scene, the grand inquisitor, Jesus stands up, he walks up to the inquisitor and he kisses him. And it's like, it's such a cool scene because this is an old, vain, cynical guy. He's just so accustomed to everything going his way. He doesn't believe in anything anymore. But that kind of melts his heart a little bit. And so he leaves, the inquisitor then leaves the cell and leaves it open.

• 1:04:14Speaker 02

  So anyway, Ivan says, you know, what do you think of my little story? And Aloishe then says, it's kind of interesting. Let me think about it for a moment. I'm happy to see you, brother. I think I have to go. And then Aloishe gives Ivan a kiss. And Ivan says, that's plagiarism.

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  Anyway, I, I, I love the scene, but, but why am I getting kind of a maudlin telling this? Um, there's a reason. I think this is a very plausible explanation. Those who rule this world, there seems to be a perception, there are certain things that are non-negotiable, that we just won't accept any resistance. And one of those non-negotiable things is apparently vaccines. Everybody has to get them. No one can question them. He who questions them will be relentlessly persecuted like a heretic.

• 1:05:23Tucker Carlson?

  Is there, you've made the case for that. I believe every word that you have said, I think, the last five years stands as testimony to the truth of what you said. But we still are aliding the question, the core question, which is, is there something about vaccines that makes them, you know, really important, the most important thing to the people who run the world? What, because it is the world. It's not, it's the world.

• 1:05:50Speaker 02

  It's the whole world.

• 1:05:52Tucker Carlson?

  Right. So what, and whatever this thing is about vaccines, has been noted for close to 100 years. I mean, Diego Rivera painted that mural. And what's interesting about it is a funny picture, I agree, and Diego Rivera had very little talent.

• 1:06:09Speaker 02

  By the way, I think the Christ child is a self-portrait.

• 1:06:12Tucker Carlson?

  I'm, I'm sure that it is, and he's a ludicrous figure, and, you know, got more acclaim than he deserves. But he was, if nothing else, sort of an indicator of what the people in charge thought. He was their sort of pet muralist, right? So they understood that 90 years ago. That vaccines were at the center of some, like, what is it about vaccines? Is it the piercing of the skin, the, the, the blood? I mean, is it, is it a kind of ritual? I mean, oh, clearly it is, but is there something inherent about the vaccines?

• 1:06:44Speaker 02

  I think that the, the entire edifice of our, everything that pertains to public health policy, um, which includes the ability to invoke a public health emergency.

• 1:07:00Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:07:02Speaker 02

  To quarantine people, to put them under house arrest, in effect, under house arrest. I mean, I remember I went to this March in, in Washington DC, in January of 2020, opposing the vaccine mandates, and I wasn't allowed to enter a restaurant in DC. I couldn't stay in a hotel in DC.

• 1:07:27Speaker 02

  I had to stay in Virginia. So it's a way, I think, this is just one way of looking at it. If you refuse to get injected, I mean, it's kind of the ultimate.

• 1:07:40Speaker 02

  I mean, people could say, well, if you come to work, you have to wear a uniform. Or, I mean, there are these different sort of restrictions on personal freedom and personal space that we sort of accept is just sort of part of a reasonable set of expectations to participate in institutional life. But getting injected, and you don't know what's in the injection. You don't really know anything about it. I mean, when you go to get your vaccine or your child vaccinated, the, the package insert isn't presented to you. There is no informed consent. I mean, it's just the pediatrician says you gotta get this for your kid to attend school. So here we go.

• 1:08:23Speaker 02

  You've, you've, you know, free will, contemplation of the reality of the, it's just not even in it. You just agree. So I think it's the ultimate form of obedience. I mean, what, what could be, I mean, well, consider that if there's a vaccine mandate, we can lock you up. We can, we can shuffle you off to some shitty hotel in, in Sydney for two weeks. We could prevent you from playing in the tournament. So it's the ultimate.

• 1:08:58Speaker 02

  The ultimate method of control.

• 1:09:01Tucker Carlson?

  So it's not, I guess, so you're answering the question, I think, by saying it, it almost doesn't matter what's in the vaccines or not. It's not inherent to the, to the chemical formulation of the product. It's not that mRNA technology, whatever its effects are. That wasn't necessarily the point. It was the ritual of forcing people to do something against their will without their consent. And once you've done that, you are in control. It is, it's a rape, basically.

• 1:09:29Speaker 02

  Are a kind of inverted communion. You have to take the communion or you can't be a part of this congregation.

• 1:09:41Tucker Carlson?

  Well, in communion itself, I'll say this as a believing Christian, is not, I mean, right, so we, Jesus said, this is my body and blood shed for you for the sins. Take this in the remembrance of me. But the human mind cannot understand what that means. But we accept it.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  We accept it.

• 1:09:57Tucker Carlson?

  Right. And I think the Catholics called that a holy mystery, maybe, or something to that effect, meaning that it, the fact that you don't understand it is part of the point, or acknowledging that you can't understand it is part of the point. And that, therein lies its power, right?

• 1:10:14Speaker 02

  It has immense symbolic power. And I, I think that you participate in communion, and there is a mystery, there's debates, theological surrogates, is transubstantiation or just symbolic? Or, the thing about a vaccine is, it's injected into your deltoid muscle, and you don't know what it is. Now, what was particularly, so it's, it's the ultimate in terms of your, your physical body, never mind the symbolic value of this, its meaning. And I think meaning is perhaps the, the ultimate thing that we're seeking in this life. But

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  this is a direct injection into your physical body, and, or that of a very small, developing child. So.

• 1:11:07Speaker 02

  What was really spooky about the COVID-19 vaccine, and remember, there were different iterations of this, there were attenuated vaccines, there were inactivated vaccines, that's to say SARS-CoV-2, cultured and then attenuated or inactivated, but what these guys really, really were interested in was this gene, this genetic product, messenger RNA, and I think this is really important, and we go into this in our book, messenger RNA, the actual molecule was discovered in the 60s in France, and there's something

• 1:11:49Speaker 02

  very important about this that I think goes to the absolute heart of scientists, the longstanding dream, it's the myth of Prometheus or Lucifer, and I actually think that Lucifer should be viewed in some ways as a kind of, he's a close stepbrother of Prometheus in some interpretation, he's a bringer of light, you know, if it weren't for Lucifer, you'd have this dumbass guy and girl sitting around eating mangoes or something, and they'd never

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  awaken to the reality of the world, they would just be stuck kind of, I mean, it sounds kind of nice, just kind of perpetually in love, walking around the garden, but the idea of Lucifer is, no, you have a brain, use it, explore, discover, you know, learn about your limitations, maybe you can even transcend your limitations, so I think that's the idea of Lucifer, the bringer of light, now, I'm not saying that Lucifer's a great guy, I'm saying this is, I think, part of this scientific archetype, to transcend the

• 1:13:12Speaker 02

  limitations of our mortality.

• 1:13:16Speaker 02

  So, um, now you ask, "What about these guys in Silicon Valley? The masters of the universe now?" I mean, the electronic world that we wouldn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for the great lords of technology in Palo Alto, or Menlo Park, or whatever. So, I think that a lot of those guys, you might say, and I don't say this to criticize them, I just think it's a description, you might say that they're suffering from Luciferian pride.

• 1:13:53Speaker 02

  It's pride that, you know, "I have discovered the way the universe works, you know, I can, I can take electrons and create a picture and send the pi-" it's almost like magic. And I actually know a professional electrician, and you can ask him about electricity, and, um, and, you know, I'll ask him a complex question, and he'll say, "Well, um, I would characterize that as, that's a FM frequency." I was like, "Well, uh, what do you mean FM? Um, like frequency modulation?"

• 1:14:38Speaker 02

  He says, "No, that's what we call in electricity, fucking magic." I mean, there are certain things about our use of electricity that is just, it's just remarkable, so-

• 1:14:50Tucker Carlson?

  And, but it's opaque even to the people who know the most about it, right?

• 1:14:54Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:14:55Tucker Carlson?

  So, this was actually, and I went and looked this up because I'm very interested in electricity and what exactly it is, and there was a huge debate in the United States, um, at the time of electrification. Not the TVA electrification, but nineteenth century. You know, Edison popularizes the light bulb, all of a sudden it's amazing, no more oil lamps, we can stop killing the sperm whales, all this stuff, it's like, great. But there were people in the United States, sane people, and a lot of them are Christian clergy, who were asking questions, and you can look it up, like, "What is this exactly?" And of course, none of them ever got a straightforward answer, and to this day, no one can really answer that question, "What is this exactly?", because no one really knows exactly what it is. I'm not attacking electricity, I'm just noting, I'm just noticing.

• 1:15:41Tucker Carlson?

  And I just find it so interesting that you can like base your whole civilization on this thing, but nobody even like a master electrician can explain every part of it. Right?

• 1:15:51Speaker 02

  There's

• 1:15:52Tucker Carlson?

  So who's in charge? The reason that's interesting is because if you don't fully understand something, are you really its master?

• 1:15:58Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:59Tucker Carlson?

  Right?

• 1:16:00Speaker 02

  Right, right. So, but this idea, yes, we don't, and I think, so I'm gonna come back to messenger RNA, but, but what I want to say about the great lords of tech is, um, I recently had the great privilege of meeting one personally, and I really liked him. He was a brilliant man, a stunning intellect. Um, and I've long admired him. It was a confidential meeting, but I've, I have long admired him. I've read his biography. I think, I think he's a miraculous guy. I mean, in terms of intellect.

• 1:16:43Tucker Carlson?

  I suspect I know him. Yep.

• 1:16:45Speaker 02

  Um, but what struck me during our conversation, in which he couldn't be, couldn't have been more gracious and polite, was, and this is my subjective perception, and I was with Dr. McCullough in the meeting. There's nothing we could possibly tell this man that he doesn't already know. He already knows everything. It, it, it doesn't matter how much Dr. McCullough has studied and observed and has worked 16-hour days examining all this. This very distinguished, very impressive man, he already knows it.

• 1:17:29Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, now I know who you're talking about. Because there's like one person I know like this. Yes.

• 1:17:34Speaker 02

  He already knows everything. Um, and one of the things he knows is that vaccines are safe and effective. Yeah. So, um, again, we're back to these axiomatic things. It's just

• 1:17:49Tucker Carlson?

  And you believed that he sincerely believed that?

• 1:17:51Speaker 02

  I think he did. I mean,

• 1:17:54Speaker 02

  I think he has some interests in believing that. I mean, it's not just, it's probably not just intellectual intrigue that has caused him to believe this.

• 1:18:08Tucker Carlson?

  Can I say one thing about that? It's not, it's too simple to say that when people have conflicts like the one you're describing, if in fact that's a real conflict. It's too simple to say it's only about the money. There is a phenomenon that I have lived personally over decades where if you're too close to something and you're benefiting from it and you like it, not, it's not about money, if you like it, if you like the world you live in, which I did, it's very hard, maybe impossible to see its real character.

• 1:18:39Speaker 02

  It's true. You're, you're, you're in it, you're swimming in it.

• 1:18:45Tucker Carlson?

  And you know everyone in it and you like them.

• 1:18:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:18:47Tucker Carlson?

  And it's not just like they're paying you to say nice things about them as you like these people. They can't be part of something, you just, whatever they're part of, you can't fully see it. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:18:56Speaker 02

  You can't, and, and you know, something that has been a matter of great controversy and strife and anger and high emotion that has come up in public discourse recently is the ancient

• 1:19:16Speaker 02

  anthropological constant of tribalism.

• 1:19:20Tucker Carlson?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:21Speaker 02

  Tribalism. And if you're not a tribalist, if you don't see the world in terms of tribe, then, and I beg your pardon for being academic again, but I think Wittgenstein, the great linguistic philosopher, would have said, "You don't understand the conversation." In other words, Tribalists, guys who hate each other and are involved in reprisals and this kind of this kind of zero sum, you know, race to the bottom.

• 1:19:56Tucker Carlson?

  Albanian mountain feuds, yeah.

• 1:19:59Speaker 02

  Serbs versus Croatians.

• 1:20:01Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:20:02Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I was, went sailing down on the Dalmatian coast, pulled into a gas station just north of Dubrovnik to get some gas for my car. And I walked into this gas station and the whole gas station was like a shrine to the villainy of the Serbs. There's a Croatian guy just north of Dubrovnik.

• 1:20:27Tucker Carlson?

  Like Slobodan Milosevic posters or something?

• 1:20:30Speaker 02

  Just, well, okay. To be fair, some lunatic Serbian artillery guy had actually direct hit on his gas station. So, okay, all right, I get it, you know, back during the Yugoslav war. And why these jerks decide to shell Dubrovnik? It's like, what are you guys? Clearly, these guys had just completely lost their minds. Why are you shelling Dubrovnik? Why did you, okay, a gas station. Okay, all right. So just blow the shit out of that gas station.

• 1:21:09Speaker 02

  So, you know, here we are, like 16, no, 26 years later, and the whole gas station is a shrine to Serbian villainy. So can you imagine every day, walking in to your place of work, and there is everywhere on the wall, a reminder of the injustice that you suffered 26 years ago at the hands of the Serbs? So I just, this was fascinating. I said, I gotta talk to this dude. So he spoke broken German, some of the Croatians from the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, they can still speak a bit of German.

• 1:21:52Speaker 02

  And I said, um, why do you believe that they shelled Dubrovnik? Like, that doesn't really make sense. Like, what is the strategic value of shelling Dubrovnik? It's just like a world heritage site, you know?

• 1:22:07Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:22:09Speaker 02

  He says, he looks at me, he says, what reason? He says, there is no reason in these monsters. They're insane. They're deranged. They're demonic. There's no reason in, in, and he's furious. It's like, it's just, can you imagine?

• 1:22:27Tucker Carlson?

  I can picture the scene, yes.

• 1:22:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, so it's hard for me, somebody who's, I don't have a tribal allegiance. I mean, I, you could say, well, you know, I have a kind of sentimental affection for my English ancestors.

• 1:22:47Tucker Carlson?

  Right.

• 1:22:47Speaker 02

  You know, I, I think I related to Sir John Leake was, I think he was Queen Anne's Admiral during the War of Spanish Secession. So, and there's a book about Sir John and, you know, I've read the book and it's like, well, he sounds like a cool guy. But the trials and travails of, of his struggle in the War of Spanish Secession, I mean, it's like, who cares?

• 1:23:12Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:13Speaker 02

  So I can't get into the internal logic of this conversation about, you know, this tribe did this and, and then, then that, and then we're back and forth and who killed more than the other guy? And

• 1:23:28Tucker Carlson?

  Would you say it's true that people without a tribal identity are at grave disadvantage against those with a powerful tribal identity? Because they don't, they don't understand what they're, what they're looking at at all?

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  You don't understand what you're looking at. I don't understand.

• 1:23:43Tucker Carlson?

  I totally agree. I have exactly the same views. Maybe it's the Episcopal Church taught us this or something, but yes.

• 1:23:49Speaker 02

  Well, I remember during, before my grandfather died, he fought in Italy. He, you know, slept on the ground for two years and, and he slung it out with, with, um, with Jerry in, in Italy. I mean, like hot combat and, um, and my, my great uncle, um, Bobby Weitzel was killed, um, in, in Italy. And it was very traumatic to my, to my great grandmother. But the thing that so, and my great grandmother, by the way, her family was originally from Germany. So there was this kind of, you know, confusion about that. And I remember talking to my grandfather and he said, one of the most disturbing things I remember.

• 1:24:34Speaker 02

  He said, we, we, there's a machine gun nest and we kind of were able to maneuver and get close. And somebody tossed a grenade into it.

• 1:24:43Speaker 02

  And the grenade went off and then the guns fell silent. And he said, so then we entered the machine gun nest. And the soldier manning it was just a boy. He didn't even have a beard. He was like a fourteen year old. And he said, the Germans were moving all of their manpower to the eastern front.

• 1:25:05Tucker Carlson?

  Always, yeah.

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  To, to, to fight the Russians. And so they had just pulled back these positions in northern Italy, north of Florence. And they're very clever. He said, they kind of set these things up where just a little kid could operate it. He said, and they had these fascinating little, little maps. And then you could actually with a lever, you could identify with binoculars, where are the Americans? And then you could move a corresponding lever to put the gun, to sight the gun. He said, it's very ingenious. He said, but I remember thinking, this is just friggin awful.

• 1:25:43Tucker Carlson?

  It's awful.

• 1:25:44Speaker 02

  Like, it's like a little kid. Um, so, and this was my grand-

• 1:25:50Tucker Carlson?

  Only the United States would do that, though. I think, and this might be wrong, but it's correct-ish. I think in nineteen forty-one December, when the war started, the largest ethnic group in the United States was German.

• 1:26:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:26:03Tucker Carlson?

  I think that was the, if you ask people, wait, what's your ancestry? I think German was number one, maybe number two after English, but it was right up there. And the whole country, so what other country, which is fine, I'm very anti Hitler, okay? But where else in history could you say to a population, go fight your distant relatives in the land of your ancestors and have them go do it? Only in a country where tribal identity had been discouraged to the point where it disappeared.

• 1:26:32Speaker 02

  Completely.

• 1:26:33Tucker Carlson?

  Right? And by the way, that also happened in the First World War.

• 1:26:35Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:26:36Tucker Carlson?

  Where millions of Americans of German ancestry changed their last names, called themselves Dutch, the Pennsylvania Dutch are obviously German, but they were so ashamed of their own tribe that they pretended they weren't part of that tribe, and I'm not criticizing it, I'm just saying, I don't think that's ever happened in history.

• 1:26:54Speaker 02

  No, no. The American adventure or project has been unbelievably successful.

• 1:27:03Tucker Carlson?

  Yes.

• 1:27:04Speaker 02

  Until, until, I don't know, 2000?

• 1:27:07Tucker Carlson?

  Yep.

• 1:27:08Speaker 02

  So, why do I mention war and tribalism and all of this? If you're in the vaccine ideology and you've completely 100% been indoctrinated in it, it's like, there's, I can't talk to you. It's like you're in another tribe. And I think that is perhaps the point of the whole thing. Let's divide, let's stamp out vaccine hesitancy, and then those who, who take the communion,

• 1:27:46Speaker 02

  who receive, the boy who receives, those who receive it will then be permanently separate from those who are hesitant and refuse. So it's like you've just created a tribal identity. And he who hesitates, he who refuses, well, if he's in Washington DC, the nation's capital, he can't stay in a hotel. He can't have a steak dinner with Senator Johnson near Capitol Hill because he's not vaccinated. So I think that's, that's what this is about, but I want to get, we might be running short on time, but I do want to talk about messenger RNA.

• 1:28:31Speaker 02

  So this Promethean or Luciferian intellect and the pride that is taken in that, there's no grander expression of this than messenger RNA. So the original idea was, well, if you think about messenger RNA, there are, there's a trinity of the way proteins, the building blocks of life are proteins. Okay. So there's replication, which is a DNA strand replicates itself. There's transcription, which is the DNA using RNA, which is one-half

• 1:29:12Speaker 02

  DNA strand, to send information outside of the cell nucleus into the external part of the cell, the sort of watery part of the cell. RNA then instructs, that's called transcription, and then translation, that RNA instruction then tells the cell what to do. And I mean, it's like you're talking about electricity. I mean, if you start studying molecular biology, you think, oh, my God, like, this is, this is so fascinating. It's so interesting. Like,

• 1:29:53Speaker 02

  in Francis Collins, who was the head of the NIH when COVID came, he wrote a book in 2006. Do you remember this book?

• 1:30:01Tucker Carlson?

  Of course not. No, I was not even aware he existed until COVID. All of this went way under my radar.

• 1:30:07Speaker 02

  So Francis Collins wrote a book called The Language of God. And what he claimed was, with the Human Genome Project, with all the advances that had been made in understanding molecular biology, DNA, RNA, messenger RNA,

• 1:30:26Speaker 02

  That scientists were reading the code in which God had created life. So you're probably wondering why I mentioned the Silicon Valley guys. So code, you code things. You, you enter a code, you transmit the code and then, and then that initiates an operation, an instruction to do something. And we're headed this way in a big way with artificial intelligence. But the idea is it's like God is a divine coder and using nucleic acid, he coded up there in the celestial. I don't know, the celestial.

• 1:31:09Tucker Carlson?

  Laboratory.

• 1:31:09Speaker 02

  Laboratory, he coded life. And now the human intellect has reached a point where we can read the code. Okay, so that's interesting. Okay, so I read the book, God's Language. That's cool. I mean, maybe we're reading God's language. I think Einstein said, I want to know God's thoughts. Okay, so far, so good. But what these mRNA vaccine guys did, they went one step further. We're not only going to read the language of God, we're going to start writing in the language of God using messenger RNA. We will now use pseudo-eurodonated messenger RNA

• 1:31:54Speaker 02

  to instruct the body to produce the, the proteins, the building blocks of life that we want it to produce.

• 1:32:04Tucker Carlson?

  What could go wrong?

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  What could go wrong?

• 1:32:07Tucker Carlson?

  I think now it's just good to interject in one sentence and remind everyone that Adam and Eve were not expelled from the garden for ignorance.

• 1:32:14Speaker 02

  Right, well.

• 1:32:15Tucker Carlson?

  Just the opposite.

• 1:32:18Speaker 02

  Well, so, but, but, but now, okay, I'm glad that you, that you raised this because now we come to a point. That I think lies at the heart of the human condition. How do we recognize? So, we are curious. I mean, when I was a boy, my mother said, you know, your problem is you're so curious. Like you just, like, if somebody tells you, you can't look at something, the first thing you do is look at it. Somebody tells you, don't go and onto that piece of property. Well, then, you know, next minute, you're climbing over the gate. I mean, it's like, what is it about telling us? You can't look into that.

• 1:32:55Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, just one piece of fruit you can't have. That's it. Otherwise, you're set. It's like, it's perfect, but you just can't have this one thing.

• 1:33:01Speaker 02

  But consider the contradiction of that. Because, to go back to The Grand Inquisitor by Ivan Karamazov,

• 1:33:13Speaker 02

  it's a paradox. Because, in a way, what The Grand Inquisitor is suggesting is, just give us all of your free will.

• 1:33:21Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:22Speaker 02

  And we'll, we'll take care of you. It's like we're going back to the pre-Lapsarian state, where you're just taken care of. You don't have to ask any questions. You don't have to try and figure anything out. You're just told the way the world is, and you accept and you obey. So, this is the tension in, in, in being human. And the messenger RNA stuff, where the whole thing becomes so fantastically absurd,

• 1:33:53Speaker 02

  and this is another really important point that we try to convey in our book. There's so much these guys don't know. So, they get these little glimmers of insight. It's like, holy Toledo, can you believe, can you believe what we just observed? Where it becomes very childish and very intellectually challenged, is the next thought, oh, now we've figured it all out. Now, we can assume the helm.

• 1:34:24Tucker Carlson?

  That's right.

• 1:34:25Speaker 02

  So, why do you, just on the face of it, that's preposterous. Like, you just figured something out. You just got a glimpse of something. You need to recognize what that's telling you is how much you don't know. You don't know. There's so many things you don't know.

• 1:34:44Tucker Carlson?

  But the irony is that the scientific process, science...

• 1:34:49Tucker Carlson?

  Is designed as a counterbalance to those very human instincts. I know something, therefore I'm an expert. That's called hubris. And the process itself is, again, designed to rein that in, to show you how much you don't know. That's the whole thing. So how did that not work?

• 1:35:07Speaker 02

  My favorite medical historian is Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr. A very, very interesting guy. And he once made an observation, which I've thought, God, if you could just frame that, put it on the wall of every library, excuse me, of every laboratory. He said, "Science is the topography of ignorance."

• 1:35:32Tucker Carlson?

  Exactly.

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  "From a few elevated points, we triangulate vast spaces of unknowns." So that is a person who's actually using his head. He's actually thinking. He's not just saying, "Oh, look how smart we are. Look at all of this brilliant stuff that we just discovered. Now let's start making a thousand assumptions that are totally unwarranted."

• 1:36:05Tucker Carlson?

  I'm gonna ask you one last specific question about messenger RNA. So I think, as you said a number of times, we don't really know its effects and we don't know certainly where it's going long-term. But the one thing that strikes me we should be very concerned about is the possibility that it changes people in a way that they pass on to their children, that it changes their genetic code. Because that's, of course, destroying humanity as we know it. Is there any indication that that is happening or could happen?

• 1:36:36Speaker 02

  Yes. There are a few things that I would say to that. The first highly alarming thing is there is evidence that it actually impairs fertility. So that's perhaps a paradox. It's actually preventing you from passing anything on to your kids because you're not having them. So that's one thing.

• 1:37:03Tucker Carlson?

  And there is, there's real evidence of that.

• 1:37:06Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 1:37:07Tucker Carlson?

  So how in the world is it still legal in the United States to inject people with that?

• 1:37:13Speaker 02

  Well, fertility is just the start of it. How about?

• 1:37:16Tucker Carlson?

  That's all I need to know. That's all I need to know, and that's almost enough to make you think, you know, we have to kind of, we have to, we just stop this now.

• 1:37:24Speaker 02

  For sure. Well, Peter McCullough has been proclaiming this for a while.

• 1:37:28Tucker Carlson?

  No, but for real, like you can't have that.

• 1:37:30Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:37:31Tucker Carlson?

  Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. I'm trying to get my emotions under control, but yeah, that's really.

• 1:37:35Speaker 02

  I'll, I'll tell you something else when you talk about young people. So fertility.

• 1:37:41Speaker 02

  In

• 1:37:45Speaker 02

  July of 2021, the New England Journal of Medicine, to their credit, published a peer reviewed case study of a young man, an adolescent boy, who developed myocarditis, inflammation of the heart. Now, consider the symbolism of this.

• 1:38:06Speaker 02

  A young, fit boy develops myocarditis, inflammation of the heart, shortly after receiving a messenger RNA COVID shot.

• 1:38:16Speaker 02

  I actually had dinner with Dr. McCullough that night. He was very alarmed by this. He said, you know, I, I mean, I've been practicing cardiology for 30 years. I very, very rarely see myocarditis. And this, this preposterous assertion that, well, it's just a little bit of heart damage. He said, this is ridiculous. You need your heart to keep beating every second or millisecond for the rest of your days. That poor muscle, it can't, you can't afford to damage.

• 1:38:53Tucker Carlson?

  There's no minor damage to your heart.

• 1:38:54Speaker 02

  No, no. So, um, he said, this is really a disaster. And so. What is the reasonable thing to automatically recognize in the summer of 21? It's very simple. We already know, we're over a year into this, that young athletes are not at risk of severe COVID illness. It's just, they're just not. It's, it has zero statistical significance as a purported threat to the health of young athletes. And one might, I might add, you know, young athletes are kind of the hope. I mean, they're sort

• 1:39:37Speaker 02

  of, not that they're athletes, but that they're young and strong and have full possession of their abilities and faculties and like, those are the young fellows that are going to perpetuate our civilization.

• 1:39:52Tucker Carlson?

  That's our country.

• 1:39:52Speaker 02

  That's our country. Precisely. So, why would you do anything? Why would you take any unnecessary risk that could damage young people? It's, it, okay, you could say in a nursing home, um, our risk benefit analysis is that, you know, take the risk with the vaccine because these people are very frail if they get, well, we could argue that. Maybe we should have a, but just to say all the young boys and little girls should get this shot even though they're not at risk of COVID-19.

• 1:40:29Tucker Carlson?

  It's the opposite. It's the most unnatural thing ever because the progression of nature is, is really simple. You go through phases in life and at a certain point, that's all you care about. I'm only 56. I already don't care about me at all. And I mean that. Not because I'm so selfless. I'm not selfless, but because that's just, it's just natural. At a certain point, you pivot from worrying about you to worrying about your children and your grandchildren. What comes after you? That's, I mean, that's the life cycle. Animals are this way. This is the most natural thing ever. And when that's subverted, then you know it's from hell.

• 1:41:04Speaker 02

  It's true. So it gets, it gets dark. So, Doctor.

• 1:41:09Tucker Carlson?

  It gets darker? I don't know if I can handle it.

• 1:41:10Speaker 02

  I mean, it, that's dark, but it's about to get darker. So.

• 1:41:16Speaker 02

  The editor of the New England Journal of Medicine, who's also an adjunct professor at the Harvard Medical School. So, in terms of institutional prestige, it doesn't get any more prestigious. I mean, you're talking about number one public medical professional, probably on earth. Professor at Harvard, editor in chief of the New England Journal of Medicine. I mean, that's like the Pope. His name is Dr. Eric Rubin, and he was also an advisor on the FDA deliberative committee to decide whether we should approve

• 1:41:59Speaker 02

  the messenger RNA COVID-19 vaccine for young people. I think the original decision is people under the age of 18. We have the transcript of the deliberative committee meeting. And the question is, should we approve, should the FDA, and I'm the, in effect, he's the most prestigious advisor in the room, should it be approved for young people? So this is his reasoning. And I just quote the transcript. Okay, so the question is, do we approve this for young people? He says two things. First of all, the risk benefit analysis is different from what it is for older people.

• 1:42:43Speaker 02

  And he doesn't need to spell this out. Everybody understands. Older people seem to be at greater risk of getting into trouble with the illness itself. So, yeah, we have a different, you know, risk benefit profile when it comes to young people. Now, that's a euphemism. I mean, there's a big difference in the risk benefit profile. Young people aren't at risk of this at all. And we have something else. We have a signal. And he said, "I'm not sure if it's 100% real, but I think that it is." He's referring to myocarditis in young people. So the signal, I believe, is real. So you have a bad safety signal,

• 1:43:25Speaker 02

  and then you have, in terms of the risk of the illness for young people, it's nil. So he said, "So it's a tough decision. But I think in the final analysis, we won't really know until we just start giving it."

• 1:43:43Tucker Carlson?

  So Reuben said that.

• 1:43:45Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Those are his exact words.

• 1:43:47Tucker Carlson?

  So how was he punished for that?

• 1:43:49Speaker 02

  That's the orthodoxy. He's.

• 1:43:51Tucker Carlson?

  So not punished?

• 1:43:52Speaker 02

  No. No, I mean, it's like.

• 1:43:55Tucker Carlson?

  How could you show your face after saying something like that?

• 1:43:58Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:43:59Tucker Carlson?

  As like someone atop, you know, the public health infrastructure in America, how could you?

• 1:44:05Speaker 02

  And so.

• 1:44:06Tucker Carlson?

  No, so there was no shame, professional shame attached to him for that.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  Well.

• 1:44:10Tucker Carlson?

  He wasn't sanctioned by anybody or fired.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  The.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  To be clear, there's still. The FDA and the CDC technically acknowledge that a adverse side effect of the COVID-19 vaccine is myocarditis, particularly in adolescent males. Okay, so. But that is so qualified. With the assertion, but it's so rare that we needn't really concern ourselves with it. It's a. A very low risk outcome. So that is the assertion in order to prevent there from being any repercussion. Now, Senator Ron Johnson held here a Senate hearing in May of this year.

• 1:45:00Speaker 02

  I actually attended with Dr. McCullough. And the question was, has myocarditis been deliberately obscured? The risk, has it been covered up by the US government? The same agencies who approved it for young people? And the answer is yes. And I think that this is very, very important. There isn't going to be. That a public acknowledgement from the same group of guys that they've made catastrophic errors in all of this, that will never be admitted. It will never be acknowledged. It won't.

• 1:45:42Tucker Carlson?

  Well, then you. Then you have at that point, no moral authority, no credibility. And you can't continue in the same way that you did before. Like, normal people will say, I'm not listening to a word you say. I'm not going to the doctor. That's where I am personally, but it's not just me. It's, it's like any person who thinks about this. It's like, how could I ever believe you again?

• 1:46:04Speaker 02

  Do you remember what I was saying earlier about a large? Percentage swath of the American people no longer believe anything their government agencies tell them, it's the same.

• 1:46:17Tucker Carlson?

  And mRNA vaccines are still being given to young people?

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:20Tucker Carlson?

  Right now?

• 1:46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:22Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, so, yeah. I don't want to marinate in rage because it's not good for me and I don't think it doesn't elevate the conversation, but let me just, just circle back to the original question, just make sure we settle it. Do you think there's evidence that the changes to people, to their genetic structure wrought by these vaccines could be passed on to their children?

• 1:46:42Speaker 02

  The McCullough Foundation, of which I am the vice president, we just published, I should say, we posted, we, we did an exposition of a paper that was recently published in which a patient, it's a published paper, it's a published case study, it's, it's not a question of speculation, it's been published. Now, molecular biologists, I'm sure, could debate about this, but the finding is, a person who had cancer of the bladder, which is a very severe cancer, in that tumor, so

• 1:47:27Speaker 02

  in the, the bladder cells that had become dysplastic, that the, the, when, when cancer begins to develop, remember I was telling you about the coding? You get coding errors and it, it starts forming these malignant cells, which are chaotic and that don't work and, but they keep replicating, that's the problem with cancer. It's like this dysfunctional thing that just keeps replicating, it's kind of a horror show. Now, I don't pretend to be an oncologist, but the finding is, is that messenger RNA was found In the cancerous cells of this tumor.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  So it seems to be integrating. Now, the question is, is it integrating in a way that is can be passed on to the offspring? Or is it so dysfunctional that it's killing the host before it can be passed on? And I don't know that we yet know that. But remember, the science is the topography of ignorance. I mean, there's a lot about this that is very, very concerning. There's also a study that this messenger RNA seems to have transcribed into liver cells. So, you know, to really get to the bottom of this, you would have to have molecular biologists

• 1:48:53Speaker 02

  who aren't entranced by this that would have to really be willing to seriously evaluate it without presuppositions. And I just don't know that we're there. That's the problem where we are. It's, it's, if you received the vaccine, if you approved it, if you, if you told your patients they need to get it, are you really going to be, unless you have a kind of Damascene moment where you're like, okay, I totally screwed all of this up. Like 100%, I'm an idiot, all of my assumptions were wrong. But there aren't very many people.

• 1:49:34Tucker Carlson?

  With decency or integrity in medicine? Apparently not. Apparently there aren't. I don't think so. I don't think these are complex concepts at all. They're very human concepts. There's nobody who hasn't screwed it up and learned that his preconceptions were wrong and he's given terrible advice or hurt people unwittingly. There's not one person who's, you know, past 14 years old who hasn't had that experience. And it is incumbent on us, it's our obligation to admit that. And like if people with the power of life and death, physicians can't admit that, then we, we need to eliminate the profession. You can't have that. That's the one thing you can't have. Dishonesty, lack of concern for other people, like not acceptable. Where's the AMA?

• 1:50:15Speaker 02

  So, get a load of this story. Why did I become interested in this whole, this whole?

• 1:50:27Speaker 02

  Story of medicine and doctrine, medicine and false orthodoxy. This goes back to when I lived in Vienna. I lived in Vienna for many years as a true crime author. I became interested in-

• 1:50:41Tucker Carlson?

  Sorry, your life story, which we haven't gotten into, but I would encourage people to look it up. So you start as a German-speaking philosopher and you wind up as a true crime author. I just love the course of people's lives. It's so easy.

• 1:50:56Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, talk about money. I mean, one, and the power of money to direct people's attention. So I think I would have liked to have been a philosopher. Two things happened. I didn't like hanging around with academics and B, I mean, I don't mind not being rich, but I didn't like being poor.

• 1:51:19Tucker Carlson?

  Oh, I hosted Fox and Friends Weekend for four years, so I know what it means to have to make certain compromises to pay the bills. So I get it.

• 1:51:27Speaker 02

  So, so I got interested in forensic medicine and I got to be pals with the pathologist, the forensic doctor at the Vienna Institute of Forensic Medicine. And she wanted to get some of her papers published in English. And she said, you know, I can, I know the basic medical terms, but I don't know how to write in a good, nice, flowing style. This was before all these translate things. So, you know, I'll do my basic translation. I'll make sure the medical terminology is correct, but could you put this into a paper that somebody might want to actually read? So I did a few translations for her and I got

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  to be pals with her and I got to where I was hanging out at the Vienna Institute of Forensic Medicine, you know, once every couple of months when I was researching my first book. And I became so fascinated. I even thought about writing a screenplay about this. So there was a professor of anatomy.

• 1:52:28Speaker 02

  At the University of Vienna Medical School in the 1840s, and I'm sorry that his his his name is suddenly slipping me, but he was an anatomy professor. And every day he took his students to the the Institute of Forensic Medicine for anatomy class. They would do anatomical studies of cadavers. And then from the anatomy class, the students would then go to the obstetrics department of the University of Vienna Medical School. And there, the head of obstetrics was a guy named Professor Ignaz Semmelweis. Okay. So, the year is 1848.

• 1:53:13Speaker 02

  A pivotal year on the continent. Right, right. So, think about a revolution. It's interesting. So, was it 48? It might have been 46. Anyway, 1846, 47 or 48. Semmelweis is pals with the professor of anatomy. The professor of anatomy is doing a demonstration, is using a scalpel on a cadaver, and then accidentally cuts himself. That injury, that wound, then becomes horribly infected, and he dies. He gets sepsis, and he dies. Semmelweis starts thinking, that's interesting, because his, the, the, the disease progression

• 1:53:55Speaker 02

  with the professor, it reminds me of what these girls in the maternity ward are suffering. It's called childbed fever. Exactly. Could it be, might there be a connection? Now, remember, this is before the germ theory of medicine. I, I think an Italian had, had proposed it, but it hadn't caught on. So, Semmelweis says, could it be that the corruption that is transferred from the cadaver to my friend with the scalpel, that the students, they're coming directly here from anatomy, could it be they're transferring the same corruption from the body to the genital tracts of my girls in the maternity ward?

• 1:54:42Speaker 02

  Could it be that if I have them wash their hands with chlorinated lime, it's what gravediggers or undertakers use to cut putrefaction, what'll happen? So he tells the kids, "Wash your hands with chlorinated lime before you examine the girls in my maternity ward."

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  So let's test your powers of deductive reasoning. What happened to the incidence of child bed fever in the maternity ward when they started washing their hands?

• 1:55:13Tucker Carlson?

  I'm thinking it fell.

• 1:55:14Speaker 02

  It fell. It fell almost to zero, from 20% to damn well close to zero. So Semmelweis says, "Well, that's it. I mean, let's just have the kids wash their hands." So he publishes his study. He does an analysis of two different maternity wards. He does a nice comparative case series study. What do you think the imminences of Europe, the medical universities, Vienna, Paris, Stockholm, what did they say? How did they greet Semmelweis's seminal study?

• 1:55:55Tucker Carlson?

  With cheering and tears of gratitude?

• 1:55:58Speaker 02

  Is that what you believe?

• 1:55:59Tucker Carlson?

  No, because I know people. They said, "That's fish tank cleaner. That's horse tranquilizer. How dare you?" And then they went on CNN to denounce him.

• 1:56:09Speaker 02

  They said, "You're crazy. You've been infected with deranged superstition. Everybody knows it's got nothing to do with that. You're just putting stupid ideas into the heads of your young and naive students. Stop it." So Semmelweis says, "No. I'm not going to stop it. I'm going to continue researching this and I'm going to continue publishing this." So this turns into a battle royal in Europe. Okay, now interestingly enough, Oliver Wendell Holmes is doing the same at the exact same time. I mean, I don't know, maybe they heard of each other. He's doing it at Harvard and he, Holmes, is not getting

• 1:56:52Speaker 02

  a bunch of blowback at Harvard, but Semmelweis in Vienna is. Okay, so this is how badly this escalates. And remember this, be useful to remember, given the current climate of things. So, the eminences of Europe say, we have to silence this guy. Semmelweis then starts firing back. You guys, at this point, have reached a moment where you actually know that I'm telling the truth. Like, the reality is, the evidence has now come in. It's so strong that you know I'm telling the truth. But you would rather than adopt

• 1:57:34Speaker 02

  my protocol of hand washing, you would rather that young moms, young mothers, and their infants, and maternity wards all over the continent of Europe, you would prefer that they die rather than admit you're wrong. Wow, man. So you know what the response was to him? You're a dangerous lunatic, and we're having a court in Vienna declare you insane, and we're going to put you in the Vienna insane asylum. They admit him. Is this a true story? This is a true story. His wife says to him, "I don't see, with all due respect,

• 1:58:17Speaker 02

  dear husband, I don't see how you can be right when all of these medical eminences are wrong." So she leaves him. No way! He's completely forsaken. He's put in a mental asylum, or insane asylum.

• 1:58:33Speaker 02

  There's actually an insane asylum that still stands in Vienna. It's called

• 1:58:39Speaker 02

  the Narren Turm, the Tower of Fools. It still exists, by the way. It's very interesting. Remember the end of Amadeus, the film where Soliari is being wheeled out? He's in the Narren Turm. Yeah, anyway, so I don't think that Semmelweis is in the Narren Turm. I think he's at a facility in the Vienna, somewhere out in the Vienna woods. A guard strikes him with something. We don't know if it was a blunt object. We don't know if it was a sharp object. He gets an infection and he dies in an insane asylum. No! It's a true story.

• 1:59:15Tucker Carlson?

  And how long was it until he was posthumously vindicated?

• 1:59:21Speaker 02

  Um.

• 1:59:24Speaker 02

  I think Robert Koch in Germany

• 1:59:30Speaker 02

  in the 1870s vindicated.

• 1:59:35Tucker Carlson?

  1870s? So decades.

• 1:59:37Speaker 02

  So, consider this. Um. When we talk about you're up against censorship and you're up against the imposition of falsehood and no matter what you say, you're just going to be told to shut up, shut up, shut up.

• 1:59:53Tucker Carlson?

  I'm familiar with that, yes.

• 1:59:55Speaker 02

  Um, it may be 30 years.

• 1:59:57Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:59:58Speaker 02

  I mean, we may, we may be all gone before. So, I'll give you another example. Smoking. Tobacco. So I know you liked to, to, uh, to, to smoke in your younger days. And my mother will hold this against me, but when I lived in Europe, I enjoyed an occasional cigarette.

• 2:00:17Tucker Carlson?

  Well, I should be clear, I, I've never stopped liking smoking. I love it. But no, I, I realize that has health effects that are bad.

• 2:00:23Speaker 02

  So, so the question was, um, in the 1920s and 30s, um, in Germany. Um, is there a link between long-term use of tobacco and carcinoma of the lung, cancer of the lung? And, you know, here's where you have to be really particular. So it's not that... Everyone who smokes is going to get lung cancer. It's not true. But could it be that in some cases,

• 2:00:51Tucker Carlson?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:51Speaker 02

  Among some of the population, there's an underlying susceptibility. And if that susceptibility is activated by years of heavy cigarette smoking, could in that susceptible population, could it cause carcinoma of the lung?

• 2:01:08Speaker 02

  There was an epidemiologist in Germany named Fritz Linkit. And he did a meta-analysis of all of the data from pathologists to doctors to everybody you could talk to that had ever made any observations on this. And he concluded, yes, not in everybody, but in a statistically significant susceptible part of the population, cigarette smoking causes carcinoma of the lung. So that's 1930.

• 2:01:41Tucker Carlson?

  And what year did the Surgeon General's warning appear on Camel cigarettes?

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  I think

• 2:01:46Tucker Carlson?

  1964.

• 2:01:47Speaker 02

  64. So

• 2:01:49Tucker Carlson?

  That's quite a spread.

• 2:01:51Speaker 02

  So Sir Austin Bradford Hill was probably the most famous epidemiologist of all time. And we have these Bradford Hill criteria of evaluating causation. So in 1950, he does a landmark study and he concludes, yes, again, not everybody, but in a susceptible population, smoking causes carcinoma of the lung.

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  In spite of his prestige, the tobacco industry, all of its hired gun doctors and the tobacco industry did have hired gun doctors. That was systematically obscured for another 16 years. So when interests are at stake, don't expect acknowledgement of error.

• 2:02:45Tucker Carlson?

  It's all shocking, but as I think the story, the amazing story you just told reminds us, we should not be shocked because this is how people are and how always have been. And even if the recognition you receive for telling the truth is posthumous or doesn't come at all, it doesn't, it doesn't matter because it's a virtue in itself to tell the truth. And that's why I'm grateful for the book you wrote with Peter McCullough and I'm grateful for this conversation, which is like twice as compelling as what I expected. So, thank you. Thank you.

• 2:03:18Tucker Carlson?

  You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad, but we're not in charge of it. So, we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families. When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency or gold. Gold survives. The same Americans who think they're protecting themselves with gold are the ones getting ripped off by big gold dealers. After we left corporate media, we got offered tens of millions of dollars to promote gold companies. How do they get the money to spend that much on marketing? Because they're scamming their customers. We didn't want anything to do with that. So, we sought an honest broker and together we formed a precious metals company that you can actually trust. It's called Battalion Metals. At BattalionMetals.com, we publish actual spot prices. We're totally

• 2:03:59Tucker Carlson?

  transparent about the vig, what we take, and we treat everyone with honesty. So, if you've been watching what's happening, you know, it's not just about money. It's about sovereignty and holding something that endures and cannot be manipulated or taken from you. So, if you've been waiting for the right time to act, this is it. Visit BattalionMetals.com.