Editor Of Vogue (Edward Enninful OBE): How To Become No.1 In Your Industry Against All The Odds!

In this new episode Steven sits down with the editor-in-chief of British Vogue, Edward Enninful OBE. Edward began his career in fashion as a model before becoming the fashion director of the British fashion magazine i-D at just 18 years old. This made him youngest-ever fashion director for an international magazine and Edward held this position for over 20 years. Between 1998 and 2011 he contributed extensively for Vogue Italia and Vogue US. From 2011, he was the Creative and Fashion Director at W Magazine. In 2016, Edward was awarded an OBE for Services to Diversity in the Fashion industry, and in 2017 he was named the editor-in-chief of British Vogue. In this conversation Edward and Steven discuss topics, such as: His upbringing in Ghana and his experience of being a immigrant in the UK His experience of being one of the few black people in the world of fashion How his insecurity drove him to succeed Becoming a workaholic and how work dominated his life The mental health impact of being a high achiever Edward’s memoir, ‘A Visible Man’ is now available in paperback, you can purchase it here: https://bit.ly/3OK3EOv Follow: Instagram: https://bit.ly/427qz9x Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Steven Bartlett?

  It feels like you've lived an impossible life.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  But with it came all the...

• 0:07Speaker 01

  I just needed to be able to look at myself and not hate myself. Edward Enfield!

• 0:13Steven Bartlett?

  The first black man to become editor-in-chief of British Vogue.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  One of the fashion industry's biggest names. He's single-handedly changing the face of fashion.

• 0:21Steven Bartlett?

  In your book, you talk about understanding that you would go from a very young age. Had your father known, you would have slit your throat.

• 0:26Speaker 01

  I grew up petrified of him. Each day, I was being told, "You're going to be a lawyer or a doctor." I knew that wasn't going to happen. At the age of 13, I came from another country. 16, I was modeling. 18, I was an editor. It was quite fast. Work was everything for me. There was this notion that women of color on covers don't sell. I knew I would need to do something about it. I didn't just create a magazine that looked good, but is so financially successful.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  I was just so consumed with work. And work was where I felt like an imposter. Really? I mean, I never look at anything I've done and think, "This is amazing." I wouldn't sleep. That leads you to drinking, and that leads you to drugs. You always have to fight.

• 1:07Steven Bartlett?

  But that fight comes at a cost.

• 1:09Speaker 01

  I woke up one day, and I saw these black markings in my vision. I was so scared. I knew after that that I had to change my life.

• 1:18Steven Bartlett?

  You sit here as one of the most successful people in your industry. What would 51-year-old Edward say to 18-year-old Edward?

• 1:25Speaker 01

  The one regret I do have is...

• 1:37Steven Bartlett?

  Edward.

• 1:41Steven Bartlett?

  It feels like you've lived and traveled an impossible life.

• 1:47Steven Bartlett?

  You sit here as one of the most successful people in your industry. But when I read about your earliest context, that's why I use the word "impossible." Can you give me the information I need to know to understand how the man that sits in front of me today got here? And I'm referring to that early information, the context that molded you into the man you are today.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me. So as you read in the book, I grew, I was born in a city called Takaradi in Ghana, West Africa. My dad was in the army. He was a major. My mother was a seamstress and we lived on a military base in the town. So already that was, that was a weird way of growing up where you are in a town, but you're not in the town. You're on a military base with its own sets of rules and, and traditions. So that's where I was and my mother was a seamstress. And I grew up in love with clothes, in love with my mother and in love with clothes.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  And I was always with her, you know, when her customers came in and my mother had, was one of those rare women who had their own business, you know, in the seventies in Africa. She had an atelier with about 40 women. So I'd spend days just really helping her fit women into clothes and, you know, little African boys standing around the corner, listening to the gossip, being shooed away. But I always say that's when I developed my love for women or women, because the, you know, my mother's friends, my aunts were all bodacious women of different sizes, big

• 3:34Speaker 01

  women, if you, you know, if you want to put it that way, but they were just beautiful and vivacious and alive. So really that was, that was how I grew up in Ghana. I mean, I was always a sickly child, so I would always be with my mother a lot. And I really learnt about sort of women and what really makes them tick. You know, I always say I can tell when a woman is happy in a dress by the flick of a wrist or a little wince of the, of the nose. And so my mother was a really great influence. I didn't know anything about fashion, but I had an aunt who had a salon called Dolly Dots and she was a hairdresser and that was like paradise for me.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  And it was there that I discovered magazines. There was a magazine called Ebony, which was an American magazine that you'd get every month. Another one called Jet and another one called Time. And I would literally devour those pages and yeah, I was, I was really happy. It was a really happy childhood. And then we had to move to London because there was a military coup and my dad, from one day to the next, had to leave. So that was the next chapter, really.

• 4:50Steven Bartlett?

  You were the fifth of six, six children. And the, the figure in that equation that wasn't mentioned is your father. In your book, you talk a lot about the fear you had of your father growing up. Can you tell me how that shaped you as a young man?

• 5:06Speaker 01

  I mean, my father was a military man. He was in the Peace Corps from Ghana. So they would spend ages sort of, you know, for creating peace in like places like Liberia and the Middle East. And he was there, then he wasn't, but we were petrified of him. When he was around, you wouldn't play outside. You know, he expected us all to be home studying. And he was very authoritarian, very African, very strict. So yes, I was always very scared and you know, I was sort of the creative child, always drawing, illustrations, drawing women all the time.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And I, and I'll hear, you know, your dad's coming and I'll just rip them up because I was literally in fear of him. And my dad had the same one. We, we laugh about it now, but when he got angry, it wasn't just with, it would start with one. And then the anger would descend to, to me essentially, number five. Because my sister wasn't born then and yeah, he was very terrifying to me in all aspects. But then my mother was just the most creative, most.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  You know, incredibly warm mother who would literally sort of, you know, here's the paper, here's the pen, you know, come in the room. There's this lady so, so her into the dress, zip her up. So I, it was very weird having my dad, who was not artistic in any way, but so disciplined, you know, and my mother, who was just a creative. And it's really funny because now I am literally both. I am so disciplined in my work, so disciplined there on time. And then also so creative on the other hand. So I got something from both. But yes, in those early years, my dad was a source of terror to me.

• 7:02Steven Bartlett?

  What impact did that have on you? When you look back now in hindsight, I look, I do this sometimes with my parents. I look back and go, for better or for worse, this parent shaped me accidentally for, you know, in this way, it might have created, um, I had a guest on this podcast called Tim Grover, who trained Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. And he says, at that young age, we developed both our bright side and our dark side. And sometimes the same incident can give us both of our, it can give us our brilliance and it can also give us our, you know, the things we struggle with the most. What dark side did you inherit from that early upbringing?

• 7:39Speaker 01

  I mean, I think what I inherited from that, that period was just this, this fear, overriding fear that never leaves you, a sense that I was never good enough, a sense that I had to hide any form of brilliance because looking at those early drawings that I did, they're not far removed from what I do now. But it was just like, don't show how brilliant you are. Don't show how good you are. Hide it, hide it.

• 8:09Steven Bartlett?

  Were you burning the drawings?

• 8:11Speaker 01

  I heard you like ripping them up, burning, whatever I had to do so there'd be no trace of it.

• 8:16Steven Bartlett?

  It's, I can't fathom that.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, but can you, as a, as a creative child, can you imagine? That's your calling, but you don't even know at that age that this is what you're meant to do, but you just know, it just felt like something that was wrong. So I spent a lot of years just really loving what I do. You know, loving the fashion industry, but at the same time thinking there's something wrong with that. Because while all this was going on, I was being sort of, each day I was being told you're going to be a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer. So to me, those were the great careers that you you you needed. Those were the great careers for an African child. For an African parent, that was it.

• 9:02Speaker 01

  A doctor, a lawyer or an engineer. So I always felt, sometimes even in the fashion industry, when I was younger, that I'm not really doing what I'm supposed to be doing. You know, if I was a doctor, my dad would be so proud. And you know, I carried that with me for years until, you know, I had to deal with it. Yeah.

• 9:23Speaker 01

  The parents, our parents shape us without really realizing. You know, someone said, there's no rulebook to being a parent. So, you know, they learn as they're going along. And my dad, you know, he was a young man and yeah, in the later years, things got better.

• 9:40Steven Bartlett?

  So you end up moving to the UK sort of around thirteen years old, roughly.

• 9:46Steven Bartlett?

  When you come here, you experience racism for the first time. It's it's it's an interesting thing to experience that racism at like your teen years. Cause you don't even understand the concept of racism. And tell me about that.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, as I said before, I grew up in Ghana, you know, my early years, where everything is possible. The doctors are black, the president's black, the lawyer's black, everybody's black, every profession. And then one day we're on a plane to England, me and my siblings, because my dad had gone ahead and my mother had to stay behind. We arrive at Gatwick Airport and we're detained because we didn't really have the right papers. You know, before Margaret Thatcher laid the law down, you could come to England from any Commonwealth country without a visa. But we didn't realize she stopped just sort of a month before.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  So we came anyway, we were detained and I remember looking around the room and saying, saying to my brothers, oh, my God, everyone's white. And it was the strangest thing I'd ever seen because in Ghana, everyone's black.

• 10:52Speaker 01

  And I remember, you know, we decamped to Vauxhall, to my aunt's flat. And this was, you know, the year of, you know, Margaret Thatcher's reign and the Suss laws and the Brixton riots and, you know, B. I remember the first time I was stopped on the street by the police with my brothers, because, you know, teenage black kids, they assume you're up to no good. And we had to go to school in Vauxhall, Lilian Bailey School, over the bridge. And it was just scary leaving the house. And my father was so traumatized by this country. You know, there was a military man who, you know, ran a battalion, now couldn't work, you know, had to seek asylum. And we were the lowest of the low at the point. Even at school, I would

• 11:36Speaker 01

  remember people would use words like, oh, my God, they're the boo-boos, which means was the word they used for someone from Africa. So not only was it tough, I went to an all-black school. Thank God. I think my dad knew that the country was so different from anything we knew, that he put me in an all-black school. And to this day, I'm still grateful for that. Because my work later, everyone talks about, how can you portray black people so beautifully? And I'm like, that's all I know. Right? But those early years were tough. They were tough. Just a new country, a new school, and you felt a sense of not being liked as a black person.

• 12:19Speaker 01

  You know? So those years were tough.

• 12:22Steven Bartlett?

  And what impact has that had on you and your work? Because I think about from a professional standpoint, you were hiding and had some sort of shame and insecurity around your creative expression back in Ghana. You come here now, and the world once again says, you don't belong here. You know, that feels. And then I even think about, in your book, you talk about understanding that you were gave from a very young age. That's a third point of, you know, and listen, you said in your book about, had you, had your father known, had you expressed that to your father? I think the words you used, he would have slit your throat.

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Slit the throat, yeah.

• 12:59Steven Bartlett?

  I can relate.

• 13:04Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, he would say things like that, like, oh, my God, if I knew any gay person, if any gay person entered the house, I'll slit their throat. But my cousin was living there, my cousin, Michael, he was gay. So back to your question, how did it make me feel?

• 13:19Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, like, it feels like there was a lot that you were shielding or being forced to hide from the world, you know, identity, creative expression, sexuality.

• 13:33Steven Bartlett?

  Is that an accurate assessment as a young man? Did you feel like you were, did you know that there was things that you were kind of suppressing?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you know, I was, I was very shy. I was painfully shy. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't speak up. I couldn't, sometimes I couldn't even walk into a room if there were people in there. It was this shyness and I just didn't feel worthy. I didn't feel good enough. I didn't feel, I didn't feel like, you know, I had a right to, to even be who I was. Does it make sense? You know, I just didn't feel like a wanted, you know, like a wanted child, really. So it wasn't until I was stopped on the train to be a model, then things really changed. Before then, I was just an immigrant kid, you know, the number five. And anybody knows when you're number five, nobody's got any time for you.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I was the fifth child. So I always sort of kept a very low profile, didn't really want, you know, didn't really want to stand out because that would mean you'll be punished. So I think I, yeah, I led life a lot like that.

• 14:43Steven Bartlett?

  So you were stopped on the train? Tell me about that. Nobody stopped me on the train and asked me to be a model, by the way.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  They should have.

• 14:50Steven Bartlett?

  You're very kind. I'm still waiting, but we'll see. You're 16 years old, right? When they, some, a guy called Simon?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Simon Foxton, yeah. I mean, so I was like a 16. I left Foxall, Lilian Bailey School. I wanted to go to Kingsway Princeton College. And I remember saying to my mum, oh my god, I don't want to wear glasses anymore because I have these huge, thick lenses my whole life. And I read, I was always like reading, and I discovered there was something called contact lenses. So I said, mum, can I get a pair? You know, we didn't have money, but she somehow, I went to the optician and somehow because my, you know, my vision is so bad, it's always been sort of, you know, the high ten, minus nine, minus ten. They gave me contact lenses, the really hard ones. I don't know if anybody remembers.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  And I, yeah, a week later, I was on the train to, you know, going to, from Hammersmith to college. And I was stopped by a gentleman who was turned out to be one of the biggest fashion editors in the country to be a model, and I didn't even know what modeling was. And I remember, you know, going home and telling my mother. And she's like, no way are you going into that industry with those people. I didn't even know what those people meant, but I think years later, I think she meant gay people. And of course, I found out later Simon was gay and the whole industry was gay. But at the time it's like, but you know, I wore her down. I wore her down, I wore her down.

• 16:22Speaker 01

  Eventually she called Simon and I went on my first photo shoot. And then again, I was stopped by a model agent and I got an agent. And so my love for the industry really begun from there.

• 16:36Steven Bartlett?

  What about your dad? Did he know you were?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  I was hiding it. My mother and I were hiding it. My mother was so good. I remember the first job, she'd go with me, you know, to cast things and on my shoots sometimes. Because I was sixteen, you know, I was a baby. And then she really trusted Simon Foxton. So then, you know, Simon would look after me and we kept it all from my dad. I had a sister who was again stopped in Canada by a famous model agent, Jean-Claude Blanc, as to be a model. And my dad was like, no way, you're not doing this. So somehow in the back of my head, he wasn't going to stop me. So yeah, I was pretending to go to school when I was going to castings. I was pretending to go to school when I was going to shoot. So it's very cloak and dagger, but my mother and I, it was fun.

• 17:24Steven Bartlett?

  That was your, I guess, your introduction to that, that world, right?

• 17:28Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:28Steven Bartlett?

  Fashion, modeling.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:31Steven Bartlett?

  Pivotal.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I mean, I remember the first day I walked onto the photo shoot, I think it was the Pepe jeans. I talked about it. And I looked around the room and I saw photography, I saw lights, I saw, you know, styling. I saw just a world where everybody seemed so happy, so collaborative. And in that moment, I knew that I wanted to be in this world in the second I walked in. And I also knew that it wouldn't be as a model in front of the camera, that I would be something else. I didn't, I didn't know anything about the industry. Also, don't forget, when our parents came over from, you know, the Commonwealth, they didn't know what media was.

• 18:17Speaker 01

  You know, if you said to my dad, I'm going to be a journalist, he'd be like, what? You know, they were the practical jobs that we talked about. So I don't really blame my dad now that I'm older. He just wanted me to have something that was secure. But try telling a 16 or 17 year old who's discovered a world where they, they belong

• 18:38Speaker 01

  to turn back to be a lawyer. I knew that wasn't going to happen.

• 18:43Steven Bartlett?

  But off you went anyway to university.

• 18:45Speaker 01

  I did for him, for my dad. But the brilliant thing about going to university was I was doing all these things. And I was, you know, I was establishing myself as a model. I had pictures in magazines and I'd worked on shows. And I thought, oh, you know, I could do this side by side. It wasn't until I got to go through this university and I remember I went for three months. And one of my lecturers literally was like, so what do you do outside of here? And I explained what I've been doing. I'd also been working with a magazine called ID, you know, sort of interning. I mean, I was like so in love with this world. I was at, I was at college, I was modeling, I was whatever I could do.

• 19:28Speaker 01

  And I remember the teacher saying to me, you know, what you're doing now is what most of our students would like to do when they leave. So, yeah, just follow it and I never went back.

• 19:39Steven Bartlett?

  You dropped out, three months and you dropped out.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Dropped out, but then when I dropped out, I was also offered a job as fashion director for ID magazine when I was eighteen.

• 19:49Steven Bartlett?

  Did you tell your dad you dropped out? I remember telling my mom I was dropping out of university and I didn't speak to her for two years, so.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  I remember, you know, one day coming home and my dad was like, how's university? And something just said, you know, you can't lie and you can't lie to him anymore. So I said, you know what, dad? I've been working, you know, as a model, I've been working at ID magazine. I haven't really been going to university. And he was furious. He threw my things out the window, my clothes out the window. And I remember picking them up and thinking, I am never coming back here. And funny enough, that's one of, that's what propels me because sometimes I have dreams where I've gone back home because things didn't work out. So I said, I remember saying to myself, I am never coming back to this house with my tail between my legs.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I'm never coming back. And the same day I went into ID magazine and the fashion director, Beth Summers, was leaving and she said, you're taking over.

• 20:52Steven Bartlett?

  He throws all of your stuff, there's so much, so much to unpack there. He, he kicks you out the family home.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:58Steven Bartlett?

  And in your head, you go, now I have no plan B. It's not plan A or plan A.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Nothing.

• 21:06Steven Bartlett?

  Sounds great, but that also sounds like.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Terrified.

• 21:10Steven Bartlett?

  And fear as a driving force can be a little bit unhealthy, right? This, this sort of fear of going back. I can relate to that as well, because similar situation, called my mum, dropping out of university. She goes, don't talk to me or the family until you go back. So I have two years of no plan B. It's forward. And that's, that's wonderful.

• 21:29Speaker 01

  Professional.

• 21:30Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, for achieving great things, but also it can cause, in my case,

• 21:35Steven Bartlett?

  severe workaholism. Because you're driven by fear. Are you driven or are you dragged?

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Driven and dragged. Basically, all I know, and I mean, you started, anybody who's started in an industry at a young age will tell you that you're just driven. You're driven, I didn't even know what I was heading towards. All I knew is that I was a workaholic. I would do anything that was needed to be done. I wouldn't sleep. I wouldn't sleep. If I had to return, you know, clothes from East London to West London, I would walk. It didn't matter.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  And you, you're also shaped by certain people around you at the time. I mean, I had great mentors, you know, Terry and Trisha Jones, who owned ID Magazine, were really supportive of me. And, you know, I also had Simon Foxton. I always say to people, I couldn't have succeeded if I didn't have great people around me. I was so lucky to have not only the best people in the industry,

• 22:37Speaker 01

  but also people who were caring. Had I been on my own out there in the world, I don't know what would have happened. I had Judy Blame, who said, you know, I've just got a new house. Come and stay with me, rent free.

• 22:50Steven Bartlett?

  How old were you?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  I was 18. Come and stay with me, rent free. I had, you know, my editors who'd just give me money, like, okay, you're working so hard. Here's £10 for your lunch. I was so lucky. That's why it's so important for me to mentor young people. It's so important for young people to have mentors, because had I not been looked after, I don't know where I would be. And also I had this work ethic from my dad and my mother, coupled with a, with a fear of going back home. It, it was just forward, forward motion.

• 23:25Steven Bartlett?

  Were you, were you running towards something or running away from something?

• 23:28Speaker 01

  Both. I was running away from a life.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  That had proven too difficult. You know, as you said, you know, black, young, gay, you know, all these intersections, as they call it today. So I really wasn't fitting at home and I was just, I don't know what I was hurtling towards, but I just knew that work would get me there, that my family wouldn't get me there, that, you know, but work somehow would get me. And I didn't know where I was going.

• 24:04Steven Bartlett?

  Was it a distraction? Work?

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Work was everything for me. Work meant everything. Work was when I was happiest. Work was when I was saddest. Work was when I felt like myself. Work was where I felt like an impostor. It's almost like every emotion you have in a family, um, what do you call it? In the family dynamic, I had at work. And it goes back to being in an industry from a very young age, from, from 16. Don't forget, the age of 13, I came from another country. 16, I was modeling. 18, I was an editor. So the impostor syndrome of that. And, and I look back at my journey now and, you know, writing the book, it's

• 24:51Speaker 01

  like, it was quite fast. It was quite a fast ascent, maybe. But with it came all the, you know.

• 25:02Steven Bartlett?

  You didn't speak to your father for another 15 years.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:04Steven Bartlett?

  Following that day that he chucked you out the house. Did you also sort of reject the family?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 25:10Steven Bartlett?

  And work became, as you described it, your, your new family.

• 25:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I rejected my family. I thought they could have done more to help me. Um, I had a baby sister who's now my agent and she was, she didn't understand why from one day to the next I left. I was seeing my family less and I embraced a whole new world. I mean, in this world, I was Edward. I was, I was, I was beautiful. I was shiny.

• 25:39Steven Bartlett?

  Accepted.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  That's a word that I hate, that I was exotic back then. And it felt like this is where I needed to be. But underneath, I was, I was a mess. I was the same insecure little boy hiding from my father. But because I was in a position of power, I had to.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  I had to cover up the shyness and essentially grow up again, grow up super fast.

• 26:06Steven Bartlett?

  You describe yourself as being lucky.

• 26:10Steven Bartlett?

  But I, I'm not sure I necessarily agree because most people don't open up their home to someone. They don't give them money when they need it. They don't bring them in just because they are 18 and young. So if you were to tell me how you created that luck, why people were pulling you up, why they were giving you the job as fashion director at 18 years old, why they were letting you in their home. Why was that?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  I mean, I always thought it was luck. I always thought I was in the right place at the right time. I'd met the right people, but I had learnt later on, of course, that I must have had something in the raw. I must have had some, a raw talent. I must have had some kind of a raw vision, something that people wanted to help hone. Because had I not had these people, I don't, I would never have known how to research a great shoot or how to write a great, you know, how to write a great story. I had people, I, I, I think they must have, I must have been so sort of wide eyed and innocent that everybody wanted to help me. Everybody wanted to help me win.

• 27:22Speaker 01

  But I also know that you do that with people. For me now, I do that with people I see have a certain talent, a certain raw talent. So I think now it's not down to luck, you know? Luck, you know, luck will get you through the door, but something has to sustain you. But in those early days, I was so grateful, you know, for all these people who thought I had something special. And but mind you, even working at ID when I was so young, I mean, I didn't have an assistant. So I would literally. Work on the cover shoots, style it, find a photographer. I would write all the shopping pages. I would work on layouts. I would shoot fashion stories.

• 28:06Speaker 01

  I would write designer interviews. It was like a one man army. And I didn't realise that I was soaking in. I was soaking in an industry. I was soaking in, really, I mean, you know, everything I do in my job now comes from those days. But there I was in sort of a magazine for young people, by young people. And I was learning my craft and it was exciting every day. I didn't want to go to, I didn't want to sleep. I didn't want to sleep, but I was definitely a workaholic. You know, work meant everything to me. And if something went wrong in work, I would just collapse and not know how to handle it. Does that make sense?

• 28:47Steven Bartlett?

  Because it was so closely linked to your sense of self and identity.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  It was a sense of self, yeah.

• 28:51Steven Bartlett?

  That again can be unhealthy, right?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Pardon? Oh, my God. I talk about imposter syndrome. And then, and then your mind is saying to you, you're not meant to be here. You're this little African boy. Who do you think you are? And you're trying to work. I mean, and I know a lot of young people, you know, speaks to a lot of young people today. And when, and when they hear that I suffer from imposter syndrome, they can't believe it. I'm like, that's just part of life. It never goes away. You learn where to put it. Like, I know that I've done this long enough to know that, you know, what I do is okay on a good day. But yes, it was quite difficult. Those early days, so that leads you to drinking and that leads you to going out, just to numb

• 29:37Speaker 01

  your insecurities and your fears.

• 29:40Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think you could have gotten here without your imposter syndrome? If you didn't feel like a quote unquote imposter, would you be sat here now?

• 29:46Speaker 01

  No way. I always say, had I not had my imposter syndrome, had I not had the need to be better? I mean, I never look at anything I've done and think this is amazing. I'm always, no. I'm like, how can I do better? How can I make this better? How can I make this issue better? How can I make this better? And that's really what's driven me all these years. Even when an issue comes out of British work, I don't look at it till two months later. Because I will literally see all the mistakes. And that's something I learnt from back then. So my insecurities really, that's what drove me. That's what kept driving me, not the successes.

• 30:29Speaker 01

  It's the fact that think this wasn't good enough, or that wasn't good enough, or this could be better. But I got to a point where I went, okay, you can let that go for now. And yeah, see things from a different angle. But yeah, my imposter syndrome definitely propelled me.

• 30:46Steven Bartlett?

  If you have that, where you're looking at your work and you always are self-critical of it, and you're always thinking about how you could have done it better, how were you happy in the moment? Because that sounds like you're kind of deferring your enoughness, the feeling that I am enough and it's good enough and everything's fine, off into the future behind the next goal. So how did you become at that stage in your life? Are you happy in the moment?

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, everyone says, why this sense of insecurity? What you have to remember is I was in an incredible home and I lost it. An incredible country lost it. An incredible family lost it. Went into a gay scene that was so, was so different to what I expected. So lost that. So for me, it's always a sense of loss that I had to overcome. Does that make sense?

• 31:42Steven Bartlett?

  That makes perfect sense.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  You know, I had to belong somewhere. I never felt I really belonged anywhere. And that really was the factor. Sitting here, 50 years old, you know, I've been able to deal with my demons, you know, through work, through therapy, whatever you want to call it. So I'm a different person now. But I'm still that same, I still have those feelings of.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just have to make it as best as it can be. But now not detrimental to my health, not detrimental to my mental health. But as a young person, you don't think of that. You just, you just have to move forward and you have to be the best you can be, whatever that is.

• 32:29Steven Bartlett?

  You have to move forward. You start that treadmill at eighteen years old, which is much earlier than a lot of people start it. As fashion director of this magazine, you start moving forward. You, you work, you, you don't sleep, you give everything to it. And at some point, it tends to be the case when I speak to these incredible people that there's a moment where you go, fuck, where am I? How did I get here? And I need to, I need to change something. Was there a moment in your life where you realised that you, you know, all this running was maybe just a little too much running? And you had to stop for a second and take a moment?

• 33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I remember sort of around two thousand and two. I mean, I'd been in the industry for so long. I was creating fashion shows for the best designers in the world. I was flying every day or every few days to a different country, you know, living the life, as they call it. But I was always, I was also the most miserable I'd ever been. I would be in a room surrounded by lots of people and feel really lonely. There was a sense of loneliness that was sort of creeping into my life every day. And there's the saying that you can be in a room, surrounded by thousands of people and be lonely. But that kept getting stronger and stronger.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  So I started drinking a lot and I started sort of going out a lot, you know, recreational drugs. And one day I was supposed to go to Italy to work on a show, a big show for designers called Dolce Gabbana. And I had a party and I lost my passport. And I was supposed to be there on day one. And by the time I got my passport back, it was day four. I literally went to the American, to the British Embassy to get my passport with a bottle of vodka in my hand.

• 34:16Steven Bartlett?

  You're joking.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Yes, which I put through the security, thinking there was nothing wrong.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  But I remember getting to Milan and literally breaking down and calling a friend and said, I think I'm done. I think I'm done with with drinking. I think I'm done. And I became sober for the next fourteen years or so. I knew my life had to change. I moved from London to New York to be away from everyone. And that's what I did. But my career was totally unaffected.

• 34:51Speaker 01

  People who have addictions can be functioning. So my career was at the top, you know, at the time. And I could have just carried on, but I just knew that life had to change. I just knew I had to develop some kind of spirituality. I just I just needed to be able to look at myself and not, you know, hate myself.

• 35:14Steven Bartlett?

  Hate myself?

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, hate myself. You know, work was always great. But like you said, behind the curtains, the insecurities, the loneliness that a lot of people, a lot of high achievers feel, you know, when you don't have a partner, when you don't have a family to go back to, you're literally a lone wolf with a lot of friends.

• 35:37Steven Bartlett?

  Everything in life has a cost, and the cost of being dragged or driven by success is often, something has to fall by the wayside.

• 35:44Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 35:45Steven Bartlett?

  And for so many successful people, that is social connections. It is all these other things that make life quote unquote balanced. Because, you know, in the moment, those things seem disposable when you're so focused and driven and, you know, running away from where you've come from or getting to where you're going. And it seems like such a recurring theme that I experienced. What were the symptoms? You said the word creeping, creeping feelings of like loneliness or whatever, you know, depression, whatever it was. What were the the signals, the signs of that? Like, that's what I really want to get to, because there'll be someone listening to this now. That it might just be creeping, like a frog in a frying pan slowly heating up. What were those signals or signs in your life?

• 36:28Speaker 01

  The signals were like, you know, not, not really sleeping.

• 36:33Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Not really, never engaging with people on a one to one, always being better with, with crowds of people around, avoidance, you know, avoiding certain situations, certain people who are quote unquote good for you, avoiding people who you really loved before and who were really kind to you, all of a sudden avoiding them for a new group of shiny people.

• 37:05Steven Bartlett?

  What about?

• 37:05Speaker 01

  Nights spent watching, you know, endless amounts of TV, but then realising for the past six hours, you can't, you can't even remember what you've been watching.

• 37:17Steven Bartlett?

  Does it make sense?

• 37:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Staring at the screen, but the mind, and a mind that wouldn't stop, no meditation involved, no, just a mind that was working overtime.

• 37:29Steven Bartlett?

  And what was it feeling like?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  It's a feeling of emptiness. I can describe that feeling. Now, when I meditate, I'm like, oh, that's the feeling, but it's a feeling of emptiness, a feeling of loneliness, is really how I describe it.

• 37:45Steven Bartlett?

  Disconnectedness.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  Disconnected from everything. And everyone's telling you how brilliant you are, you have the magazine covers. I mean, I remember once, one month, I, I went to the newsstands, I had the cover of American Vogue, Italian Vogue, Vanity, American Vanity Fair, ID Magazine, and, and feeling empty, and people saying, oh my God, look at what you've achieved, and just, just wanting, and also wanting to destroy it.

• 38:10Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 38:11Speaker 01

  Wanted to destroy whatever talent there was, wanting to destroy it, not really caring, not really taking care of it. I mean, now I know that when you're given a talent, I don't know where that comes from, you have to protect it, you have to nurture it, you have to, but when you're young, in your twenties, and you have money, and, and jobs are coming to you, you just don't, you don't see the value.

• 38:35Steven Bartlett?

  So what changed at that moment in your life? What changed? You gave up the alcohol. You described yourself at that point.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  And I I went into AA where.

• 38:44Steven Bartlett?

  Alcoholics Anonymous.

• 38:45Speaker 01

  It's, oh my God, I learnt to do service with homeless people in AA. It's a leveler. So I would, you know, you do service with homeless people. You'd go for lunch with people from all walks of life. Don't forget, I'd been in this industry since eighteen and I hadn't stepped out of it. The only people I knew were actors or musicians. I hadn't stepped out of this, but meeting real, everyday, regular people that really helped me. And also doing service, you know, one day you make tea. I had sponsors, so, you know, a sponsor is, you know, someone who wants to to not drink and change their life. So you're someone's, in a way, mentor.

• 39:29Speaker 01

  I had, you know, a sponsor, but I was really in the program. And that really gave me a spiritual side to be able to to deal with the world. And even, you know, to have a relationship with, you know, married now, like I said, I've been in a relationship now for twenty one years. But had I not taken that step, had I not woken up and thought, I need my life to be different. I don't know where I'll be today. Because the party moves very fast, you know? The train moves very fast. And a lot of people in the fashion industry don't get the chance to step back and, you know, reevaluate. You just go, it's just like, yeah, you could go from party to party and it'll be okay.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  But I just knew that I'm coming from where I came from, that I needed to change my life.

• 40:20Steven Bartlett?

  Going from party to party and it'll be okay. That almost seems like a bit of a metaphor for how a lot of people are living their lives, even outside of the fashion industry. Going from job to job, lawyer to senior lawyer to partner at the law firm, without really having that moment to step back and say, who am I and how did I get here? And do I belong here and do I feel okay? I know the external world's telling me I've done well, but that, does that match with how I feel inside?

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's like, you have to know what you feel inside. And a lot of times, too many people, young people are. Doing what they think other people want them to do. Oh, you're great. You'll be good at this. You should ask for this job. Sometimes you have to ask yourself, do I want that? That's what I did. Everyone says you need to take this campaign. You need to work with this designer. So I did. But did I really want that? Maybe I didn't.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  But you just do it because people's expectations of you, you know? And I did that for years and, you know, now I don't do that anymore. But it takes a while to be able to figure that out.

• 41:24Steven Bartlett?

  If you could have had a chat with Edward, the 18 year old fashion director at ID Magazine, and you could have just sat down with him and given him a couple of listens. Right, Edward, this is what I need to tell you.

• 41:36Steven Bartlett?

  What would 51 year old Edward say to 18 year old Edward about career advice and equipped him for the next couple of years?

• 41:43Speaker 01

  I'd say, don't just give everything to work. Don't just give everything to work. You know, find moments for yourself. Find moments to self reflect. Find moments to, I always go back to meditation. Find moments of self help. Because that will carry you much longer. You know, a lot of people I started out with are no longer around. So many people along the wayside decided the industry wasn't for them or was bad for their mental health. And I just kept going. And I would say to my younger self, you know what? Sometimes, maybe some jobs aren't worth it.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  But, you know, when you're 18, everything is a must, isn't it?

• 42:31Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think he would have listened?

• 42:32Speaker 01

  No.

• 42:36Steven Bartlett?

  No way. We'd just do the same thing all over again. But that's the beauty of youth, isn't it?

• 42:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 42:42Steven Bartlett?

  There's some lessons in life that you have to learn for yourself.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  I wouldn't have listened to anyone. I didn't listen to anyone.

• 42:48Steven Bartlett?

  Really?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  But, um, yeah.

• 42:54Speaker 01

  Little Edward.

• 42:57Steven Bartlett?

  Though.

• 42:57Speaker 01

  But you know what's really great about that time, now that I think about it? Was like, you know, I go back to saying, you know, I was, I was, I don't know, the chosen one or the token, whichever you want to see it. But I even learnt at that age that I needed people like myself around. I needed black people around me, people of colour around me. So I, you know, I became really good friends with a young model, Naomi Campbell, a young makeup artist, Pat McGrath, another hairstylist, Ben Skirv and Paddy Wilson. And we became our little group in the fashion industry through the nineties. And you always need, you always need your people.

• 43:33Steven Bartlett?

  Why?

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Because you just do, because there's certain things that, you know, I was facing that you wouldn't know as a person who wasn't black, that Pat would understand and Naomi would understand. We were navigating spaces that, you know, most black people weren't. And you just need someone to understand when you had a problem, someone to understand and help you navigate, really. So for me, those friendships that we had as kids in the early nineties, we're still so close. We speak every day, all of us. So you need your tribe. You need your tribe. And I remember even the day I stopped, I stopped drinking, I called Pat and I called Naomi and, you know,

• 44:19Speaker 01

  they've been so consistent in my life. But I had my tribe in an industry that wasn't really for us.

• 44:28Steven Bartlett?

  You stayed at Ideas Fashion Director for a long time.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  Twenty something years.

• 44:33Steven Bartlett?

  Twenty something years. Most young people, especially these days, wouldn't stay in any job.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  No, they're out.

• 44:39Steven Bartlett?

  Staying for two years.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  After six months, they're coming to me to say, what is my prospect? I'm like, I don't even know you.

• 44:46Steven Bartlett?

  That's, when I read that, I was like, is that correct? Like, you stayed in one job, the job you had at 18 for 20 something years.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  But I mean, not 20 years, I mean, 20 years, but I was also freelance and still.

• 44:59Steven Bartlett?

  Doing the job, yeah.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, doing the job. But ID is such a special magazine. You know, it became like the coolest magazine in the world. Every model, every actor, everybody wanted to be a part of it. So there was no need for me to leave. And I'm also, I'm also very loyal. You know, loyalty is so important. So everywhere I go, TikTok, I never leave.

• 45:21Steven Bartlett?

  There's something to be said for that, though. It's rare in the modern world, that loyalty to a profession or a craft.

• 45:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. And if someone is loyal to you, I believe in sort of being loyal back. You know, if someone nurtures you, you know, then you want to be there. Like I said, it replaces the family dynamic, which I didn't have from.

• 45:40Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think that's part of it? The why, why you've been so loyal is because you're searching for somewhere to belong?

• 45:44Speaker 01

  Oh, I know that.

• 45:45Steven Bartlett?

  Oh, brilliant.

• 45:46Speaker 01

  Because even when I was at ID, my friends was, I was never alone at my desk. Each day, you know, every day you come in, there'll be the hottest actor, singer, dancer of the moment, run my table. The next day will be a writer. It was like, yeah, come in, come and hang out. Let's go hang out for the day with Edward. And that was what ID was.

• 46:07Steven Bartlett?

  And what was that making you feel when there was people around you and from an emotional standpoint?

• 46:13Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm, I'm great with people. I love being around people. And I always say, you know, I have a, I have a husband who is sort of very, wants to be on his own.

• 46:23Steven Bartlett?

  Introvert.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  And I grew up with five siblings, so I don't even know what being on my own is like. I mean, now I do, but back then, the more people around, the more, like, they gave me energy and creativity. I love creative conversations. I love, I love being in the moment. I love arriving at, you know, a creative decision. So that's, that was really my fuel. Does that make sense?

• 46:49Steven Bartlett?

  That makes perfect sense.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:50Steven Bartlett?

  Vogue, how did that happen?

• 46:51Speaker 01

  Vogue?

• 46:52Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  So after ID, in the late 90s, I started working for Italian Vogue, for the great editor called Franca Suzani. And Italian Vogue was sort of, of all the Vlogs, you could say the most creative, where, you know, she would give you 30 pages to shoot the most incredible images. So, you know, I did that for maybe called 10 years. I was at Italian Vogue, sort of the main stylist. And then I got a call from Anna Winta in America

• 47:23Speaker 01

  to come and work for American Vogue. So from Italian Vogue, I moved to American Vogue and I was there for, working for Anna for seven years. Then I got a call. Damn, you do long stints. So long.

• 47:37Speaker 01

  And then you got a long. Then I got a call from W Magazine to work with Stefan the Tonkey, a really great editor. And I was there for seven years.

• 47:46Speaker 01

  You know, but when you're having fun or when you're enjoying what you do, time is of no essence. You know, like I, I, I'd say, oh, the issue comes out in six months. And someone's like, that's six months away. But for me, it was like tomorrow. So, yes, and then one day out of the blue, I got a call from Jonathan Newhouse, a very

• 48:10Speaker 01

  great, he was, you know, he owns Conde Nast, the company that owns Vogue. And he said, um, the editor who was there, had been there for 26 years, was, you know, fashion, and there's nobody leaves any chance.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Was leaving and would I come in for an interview? So I came in for a couple of interviews. I didn't think I was going to get it because to be honest, I thought Vogue wasn't meant for people like me. You know, I thought Vogue was meant for, you know, women from a certain backgrounds. And, and I was, you know, the boy from Lovable Grove, you know, I was gay, I was outspoken. You know, I was good at my job, but, um, yeah, I went for an interview and I literally told them. You know, how to, how I would do Vogue for, for 2017.

• 48:58Steven Bartlett?

  And what was that message?

• 48:59Speaker 01

  To make it inclusive, to make it diverse. You know, there was this notion in the fashion industry that black women or women of colour on covers don't sell. It's been in the industry for as long as I can remember. But I saw all these affluent women, you know, not just black women, you know, gay women, women from, you know, with working class backgrounds, you know, Muslim women, all these British, who are British essentially, not seeing themselves reflected in the magazine. I thought, well, not only is it bad, but you know, it's not good business.

• 49:39Speaker 01

  But I wanted to create a place or a safe place where women could just feel welcomed. Because I always remember, my mother always said to me, if you can see it, you can be it. So I wanted to create a magazine where, you know, women of all shapes, sizes, you know, race, age, socio-economic background could see themselves reflected. And that's all I did. I didn't reinvent the wheel. I just thought, who are the women out there that I wanted to reach? And that's what I did. And thank God, the world was, I mean, now diversity is a buzzword, right? But in 2017, nobody was, wanted that on a magazine. And I always said, you know, I knew I'd probably be fired three months in.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  But I also learned, and this is what I got from my father, I'd rather be fired for something I believed in than to go in half, halfing it and get fired anyway, half arsing it. So yeah, that's how Vogue happened and the world was ready.

• 50:39Steven Bartlett?

  When you got that call, saying that you were gonna take that top job at Vogue, how did you feel?

• 50:46Speaker 01

  I felt scared. I felt scared on one hand because I knew the type of person I am that I that I wouldn't, like I said, I wouldn't just go in and try to make do, I would need to change everything. I also knew that Vogue had such a hu, I mean Vogue's the best magazine in the world and has such a huge sort of history that I wanted to sort of be a part of it, but make it about today. And I didn't know if the readers would be ready. I mean, before I started the job, you know, there were speculations in the newspaper. I mean, I got called all kinds of African. I got called, I got called, I got called a black, what was it?

• 51:30Steven Bartlett?

  I had the, the.

• 51:30Speaker 01

  The black.

• 51:31Steven Bartlett?

  They said it was like going to Crufts.

• 51:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:34Steven Bartlett?

  And the cat.

• 51:35Speaker 01

  And the cat won, like a whole other breed. So already I had that on my shoulders. It was really, it was a really tough time. But I didn't speak. I just thought, let me just bring out the magazine. And when the first issue dropped, December twenty seventeen with Adjoa on the cover, an issue that was dedicated to Great Britain, the country that gave me a home, the country that I loved, and featured all the best, you know, Zayde Smith, Naomi Campbell, Sadiq Khan, that's the best of Britain. The world got it straight away. And from that minute, the, the magazine just went up, up, up, up, up. And we haven't looked back.

• 52:18Steven Bartlett?

  But even, I, I read, so I read about that story of the newspaper when you got the job as the, the top job at Vogue. They said it was like Crufts, but the cat winning.

• 52:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:28Steven Bartlett?

  Racism. And then I also recall a story you tell about arriving at Vogue one day and a security lady not letting you in because they thought you were the delivery man.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:40Steven Bartlett?

  And at that point, you were the editor.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  I'd been editor for years.

• 52:44Steven Bartlett?

  And they wouldn't let you in the building.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was, it was, you know, I think she, the woman was hired from God knows where. I walked in, I walked in and without asking for anything, without asking for my pass, it was like loading bay. I was like, excuse me?

• 53:00Steven Bartlett?

  What?

• 53:03Speaker 01

  You have to use the loading bay. And I was like, I'm the editor of this magazine.

• 53:08Speaker 01

  But what that, you know, I always say what that taught me was never to feel that the work is done, never to feel that I'm okay, never to feel that I've made it. Those moments remind me that there's still a lot to do. A younger person walking in there would have been paralyzed with fear, but I knew how to do something about it.

• 53:33Speaker 01

  And this also happened years ago at a show where they put all fashion directors in the front row and put me in the second row. And I literally was on Twitter the next day, I'm not scared. Fear is not an option for me, you know, from a young age, I've never been scared of fighting for, you know, what I deserve, of fighting for what people from different backgrounds deserve. So yes, that happened at Vogue, you know, but it also made me realize that you always have to fight and you can never be complacent.

• 54:08Steven Bartlett?

  Even today, do you feel like there's people that wanna see you fail and that don't want a man of your color and background to be in that role?

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I mean, I think, you know, I mean, I've proven myself. And at the end of the day, I didn't just create a magazine that looked good, but also a magazine that was finance, is so financially successful. You know, diversity, sales. I remember taking the job and people saying to me, diversity is downmarket. Yes, I heard that. Then I had Oprah Winfrey on the cover, wearing the most incredible diamond earrings and it sold out. So every day I continue to sort of challenge what the idea of Vogue is and the idea of being an editor is. But now I look around at all the magazines and diversity is now a part of.

• 54:57Speaker 01

  Part of the media, you know, having black models on the covers, that's no longer a, a big deal, having issues around, you know, having gay issues or trans issues, it's no longer an issue, but in 2017, it was unheard of. So it shows how far we've come, but there's still a long way to go.

• 55:18Steven Bartlett?

  You fought, Edward, you fought for your entire life. You fought for yourself, you fought for others, you're, you're fighting for your people. You're, you're doing that every day. It's so clear in all your work. I was reading also about the, the black issue you released and how well that sold out, where you put all sort of black models throughout this magazine. And yeah, and that fight, again, it comes at a cost. And one of the costs it came at was your health. I read about the health scare you had. Can you tell me about that? And the doctors linked that back to your lack of sleep and it sounded like some kind of a sort of a culmination of fighting a bit too hard, if that makes sense.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, I was, I was even on my way here, I was in, in the car with my peer and just like, you're always fighting. You're always pushing forward. Yes, basically all those years of just not sleeping, just working, overworking, travelling. I woke up one day and I saw these black markings in my, in my vision. And it turned out that I was, I was having a detached retina. So the retina did detach eventually, you know, one surgery, then it detached again, and it detached four times in the same eye. And

• 56:31Speaker 01

  then as all that was happening, my other eye started. So they had to operate on that. I've been, I've had five operations. And, you know, I work with my eyes. So can you imagine what that did? So that was really harrowing. And then also I developed tinnitus, so the hearing.

• 56:52Steven Bartlett?

  I had that. It's hard to explain.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  You can't explain.

• 56:56Steven Bartlett?

  You can't explain it. If I said to you, your, your ear's gonna ring, you go, okay. But when your earrings, nonstop.

• 57:01Speaker 01

  You think you're going crazy?

• 57:02Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, you go crazy.

• 57:03Speaker 01

  You think you're going crazy?

• 57:04Steven Bartlett?

  I had it for about 15 days and I can see, I, you know.

• 57:06Speaker 01

  Only 15 days?

• 57:07Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  It's gone?

• 57:08Steven Bartlett?

  It, it went, yeah.

• 57:09Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 57:10Steven Bartlett?

  And I, so I started reading online about it and it goes, you're gonna have this for life. And then I read about the, the psychological impact on your mental health of having it for life.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  Can you imagine having that and then having your, my eyes? But what it did teach me, you know, when, you know, I didn't work for two years. People didn't realize when my whole sort of eye issues were happening, I didn't work for two years. But in the industry, you know, you can, you have so many shoes banked anyway. So it looks like you are, but I knew after that that I had to change my life, that I had to practice self-care, that I had to, you know, work hard but not travel as much, not take every job, not, and British folk came at the right time because it helped. You know, it meant I'll be in one place a lot. I'll be in that office. Which was also very new because I hadn't been in an office for a while.

• 58:00Speaker 01

  And yes, it really helped me turn my life around. I mean, I'm such a health nut.

• 58:05Steven Bartlett?

  A purpose-driven man like you that's so in love with his work, for your work to be taken, because your eyes, as you say, are central to what you do. So you can't see films, TV, shoots well. What was the, the sort of mental health implications of that?

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Oh, God, I was, I was, I was a mess. I mean, I was, I was living in New York at the time anyway. And I was seeing, I saw a therapist who said I had PTSD. Because I was so scared of losing my vision. It spiraled, I mean, to all my, to my relationship. It spiraled into my life. I was so scared. And I remember the idea of going blind wouldn't leave my mind for one second. Like, it wasn't like every day I thought of, oh, I might go blind once. It was every second on my mind. I could be happy and I'll go back. You're gonna go blind. And the mind, the brain is so powerful.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  So imagine you're leading your life and then there's this thing running behind your brain. You're gonna go blind, you're gonna go blind, but non-stop. And it took a lot of therapy to cognitive therapy to help me deal with that. Cause I was convinced, not just one eye, but two. But then I found the most incredible doctor in New York, probably the best in his field. And, you know, my eyes are, yeah, good now. I mean, not perfect, but at least I can see or partially see.

• 59:35Steven Bartlett?

  I don't know if it was slightly after that, but you know, we've talked about the incredible impact and inspiration from a very young age that your mother was to you. She was everything you've described, vivacious. She was an entrepreneur. She was the, the reason why fashion became such an important part of your life as a young man, drawing fashion designs under her workstation at work and so on. And while she was away visiting Ghana, she had a stroke.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Steven Bartlett?

  And from there, her health deteriorated over the coming, over the next couple of years. In two thousand and sixteen, at forty four years old, your mother passed away.

• 1:00:10Steven Bartlett?

  What impact did that have on your perspective in your life, the passing of your mother?

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Um, oh my God. I mean, I, my mother was somebody who wouldn't stop working. She was somebody who wouldn't sleep. I mean, I get all that from her. She read, I mean, my, my mother didn't even cook. It's cause my sisters would cook. She was obsessed with beautiful clothes, make, bringing beauty in the world. But I also watched her, you know, she didn't eat so well. She wouldn't exercise. She'd just wake up and just work. So, I mean, you know, my mother was the love of my life and it really made me stop to think. I mean, you know, strokes are not, nothing to, you know, to be messed with. And it runs in my family. So that was already a sign to really look after myself.

• 1:00:58Speaker 01

  But losing my mother really left a void that, you know, will never be filled. But now I don't remember the, a strange thing happens when you lose a parent. Now I don't remember her being ill. I just remember that vibe, you know, that gorgeous, creative woman who was so full of life. And my mother always taught me not to be scared of anything. And yeah, all the memories I have of her are so great, but she also helped me change my life. You know?

• 1:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, she was the love of my life.

• 1:01:33Steven Bartlett?

  In your words, what do you owe to her?

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  I owe her everything, my god. I owe her the love, the love of fashion and colour and people, the delving into your imagination, the creativity, everything that's, I create that's beautiful, everything, you know, the love I have of women of all shapes and sizes and ages and, you know, race, everything, everything good, everything good in my work, but also in my life. She was the kindest, most nurturing human being, and that's something I try to do with my staff,

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  that's something I try to do in my everyday life, sort of, you know, they used to call me teacher when I was young, so I really like teaching a next generation and really nurturing them. So all that really came from my mother. And also empathy, you know, being able to put yourself in someone's shoes, all that came from her.

• 1:02:40Steven Bartlett?

  When she, after her stroke, it was almost fifteen years where you describe it as a sort of decline in her, in her health. When she did pass away, was there any, any thoughts of sort of regrets about the, this is something I always wonder about my parents, because I've still got my parents, but I play out the scenario of how I'll feel one day when I've spent all this time working and our relation, you kind of, I think I've gone through life thinking my parents will live forever, to be honest.

• 1:03:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, everyone thinks their parents are going to live forever. I say to my friends, please make sure you see your parents as much as you can, because when they're gone, they're gone. I still pick up the phone to call my mother and she's not there, but spend as much time as you can, because they're not here forever. You think they are. And the biggest regret I had is all those years I spent working and travelling and not seeing enough of her and not, you know, going back to, to visit. And I was just so consumed with work, you know. The one regret I do have is I wish I would have spent more time with her, but I thought she was going to be around forever. So yeah, spend as much time as you can with your parents, you know, build whatever bridges you can build. I know some bridges

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  are impossible, but if you can build bridges, you know, do, because when they're gone, you will miss them.

• 1:03:58Steven Bartlett?

  Are there any, did she ever hear from you directly the impact that she had had on your life?

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, before she had the stroke, she saw how well I was doing and, you know, she would see, you know, different articles appear in different magazines and she knew that, you know, she was African, so she knew that I was financially secure. Secure enough to give, you know, to look after the family. So for her, even though she didn't see me get to this level, she knew that, you know, I was able to buy a place when I was very young and I'm able to sort of look after them. And so she saw that and I think she was very proud of that.

• 1:04:36Steven Bartlett?

  She must have been very proud of you.

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  I think she was. I hope she was anyway.

• 1:04:41Steven Bartlett?

  Incredible. You went to therapy after she'd passed away. What has therapy given you? What's the sort of the practical?

• 1:04:50Speaker 01

  Therapy really gives you the practical tools to cope with life. I, I mean, I've always had, I've always been very good with boundaries. Like it teaches you boundaries. I've always been very good, you know, when I was a teenager, I was, I just wanted to do what everybody wanted. But then the older I got, I mean, I was, I mean, I was so frosty at times anyway.

• 1:05:08Steven Bartlett?

  It teaches you boundaries. It teaches you to speak up when, when, you know, things are not right.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  You know, again, I've always had that, but it teaches me to be human, to be caring to, you know, certain people in our positions, you know, when you're successful, sometimes you, you discard opinions so fast. Or you discard people, people's ideas. So I'm now learning to be a better listener. You know, all those things that I wasn't when I was growing up and I, maybe it's turning 50 as well, who knows? I'm more patient now, definitely.

• 1:05:44Steven Bartlett?

  If I was your, who's the closest person to you professionally?

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  Professionally? Oh my God.

• 1:05:50Steven Bartlett?

  Who knows you best professionally?

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  My sister.

• 1:05:55Steven Bartlett?

  Okay, so your sister, your younger sister, right?

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  My sister, who was also my agent for 15 years.

• 1:06:00Steven Bartlett?

  If I asked her what you're good at, because you've reached this position where you're the top of your game in what you do, from the most incredible start in life to here now. So we talked about your talent, but we didn't really figure out in terms of the specifics of what that talent is in your own words. If I was to ask your sister, I said, what's Edward's talent? What is the thing that he's good at that the peers just can't quite do as well as he can?

• 1:06:27Speaker 01

  You should have asked her.

• 1:06:28Steven Bartlett?

  Yeah, I should have asked her. What do you think she'd say?

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  I think she will probably say that I'm in perpetual forward motion, that I don't take no for an answer, probably, and that I'll do whatever I can to make the best magazine or to make the best picture or to make the best. Like, I'll go to the ends of the world to make things happen, maybe.

• 1:07:00Steven Bartlett?

  Isn't it difficult for someone who doesn't have that same standard to work with someone like you then? Because if I don't care as much about the detail as you do.

• 1:07:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I also think that it comes with time, doesn't it? You know, I think you can see diamonds in the raw. So I don't expect everybody to be like me, but I can also see potential. And then hopefully you can nurture that potential to its fullest. So I don't expect everybody to come in, you know, sometimes the best people you work with are the quiet ones in the back, the ones who are not good in interview situations, but the ones who work and are workers. And she'll probably say that I'm definitely a worker, like I work very hard.

• 1:07:46Steven Bartlett?

  Do standards matter to you?

• 1:07:47Speaker 01

  Very much so.

• 1:07:49Steven Bartlett?

  Do you sweat the small stuff?

• 1:07:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:52Steven Bartlett?

  Why does that matter?

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  The devil's in the details. You know, you have to create on a level that we create. You know, you can't just say, okay, everything's fine, everything will work out.

• 1:08:07Steven Bartlett?

  Can you work with people that are like that?

• 1:08:10Steven Bartlett?

  That don't sweat the small stuff.

• 1:08:13Speaker 01

  So long as there are people there who can sweat the small stuff. Maybe other people's talents are something else, but there needs to be a balance. It can't just be everybody there sweating the small stuff. But there also has to be sort of dreamers and creators, you know. Someone said to me once, what do you look for when you employ staff? And like I said, it's not the best interview. It's when you're walking towards my office, am I happy to see you? Like, what are you bringing to the job? So someone comes into my office, they're like sweating the small stuff. And somebody can just walk in and go, I have a big idea. And that's what I love about what we do.

• 1:08:57Steven Bartlett?

  Do you think you're successful?

• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  I'm successful at my work.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  But I'm still a work in progress where life is concerned.

• 1:09:10Steven Bartlett?

  How?

• 1:09:11Speaker 01

  Because every day I learn something new about myself. I feel like I missed a lot of years growing up, you know. For years, I was always.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  I was always sort of jealous when I saw people who went to university together. Or when people were, you know, who went to university together, had all those escapades. And I was working. But now I realize that everybody has their own path. And mine was to, yeah, to go and be a worker.

• 1:09:42Steven Bartlett?

  Sometimes I ask my friends this, because this is the kind of weird that I am. But if happiness were an ingredients list, if it was a recipe that needed certain ingredients and certain quantities for the recipe to be complete. Is there anything missing currently off your ingredients list? That you think if you just had a little bit more of that, then maybe you'd be even more fulfilled, content, happy?

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  No, it's for me, it's more, it's more the opposite. I'm now like, if I don't want to be in a place, whether it's dinner or in a job or in a situation, I'm out.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  That's what, that's the ingredient that I have now, that I don't want to spend any, life is future, I don't want to spend any time being in a place where I don't want to be. And that came with years and years of, you know, failures and successes or whatever you call it. Now I know where I need to be, who I want to be with, and that's, that's the ingredient that's been added.

• 1:10:39Steven Bartlett?

  I'm thirty now, right? So I've got.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  You're a baby.

• 1:10:43Steven Bartlett?

  There's a twenty, about a twenty, twenty year gap between me and you. So.

• 1:10:46Speaker 01

  But you're so, my God, you're so great, what you're doing.

• 1:10:49Steven Bartlett?

  Thank you. I mean, that means a lot coming from you. So thank you. What advice would you give me as a thirty year old man right now? You know, I've got my, I've got another twenty years ahead of me. It's a different chapter of life. I love that piece of advice you said about boundaries and like, if I don't want to be there, let, let someone down. Get out of there. Is there anything else you think that as a thirty year old man would equip me to make the next chapter of my life is brilliant? I mean.

• 1:11:12Speaker 01

  Don't say, don't take no for an answer. Keep, keep doing what you do. There'll be naysayers along the way. People like, oh, you can do it like this. You can do it like that. This, this person's, don't listen to any of that. You've already set yourself on a great path. Manifest it. Keep moving forward. Yeah, but really don't be distracted by people telling you you can't do this, or you can't do that, or shouldn't do this. Want someone, again, one of the things my mother said to me is when you go into a place, an institution, and they say, you know, we do things like this, or things, you should say, why? Always have that on your mind. Why? Why, why does it have to be like this? Why can't we change? So why? It's a very important word to have.

• 1:11:57Steven Bartlett?

  Amen. How has love changed your life, Edward? Twenty years married now.

• 1:12:02Speaker 01

  I mean, love, I never thought I would have love. I always thought I would be like a lot of those people who sort of career minded people, you know, where you get to the end of your life and you've achieved everything without a partner. And then I met, you know, Alec, when we were in our twenties, I was in my late twenties, he was in his early twenties. And part of the reasons why I got so, part of the reason why I got sober, and he has taught me about just being a, and being a person, being, being human, you know, being grounded.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  He's so special, really, just the normal things in life. But he's also very creative. So he tells me when a cover is awful and we fight. And I say to him, what do you mean this is awful? Everybody loves this. And he goes, yeah, they're telling you what you want to hear. So he's my, you know, my, my home, you know, my safe space. And he's just very kind, you know? Took me to be kinder.

• 1:13:12Steven Bartlett?

  Have you learnt to express to him what he means to you?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  I think he read the book. No, he knows, he knows what he means to me.

• 1:13:22Steven Bartlett?

  What does he mean to you?

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  Without him, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't even, I probably wouldn't even want to carry on doing what I do. But he's so excited. He's a director. So he's also so excited by work and our life. And, you know, we have two puppies, so we have a great work-life balance.

• 1:13:39Steven Bartlett?

  You wouldn't want to be here?

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  No, I wouldn't want to be here doing what I do. You know, I'll be like, oh, I'm just quitting. Or there are those days when you go home, like, oh, I can't be bothered to deal with that. And he's like, yes, you will. And you'll go back tomorrow. And, you know, just, he's really normal and so lovely.

• 1:13:59Steven Bartlett?

  Edward, we have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest without not knowing who they're leaving it for. And I get to see it when I open the book. And the question that's been left for you by our previous guest, who I shan't name, is if you could be part of any brand or company, past or present, which would it be and why?

• 1:14:21Speaker 01

  I mean, obviously, I go back to the first magazine I ever saw. It was Ebony magazine. There was a great woman called Unice W. Johnson, and she was... She was the editor's wife. She was one of the few black women who would go to fashion weeks, as we call it now. And do you know that poor woman, they wouldn't lend her the clothes to shoot? She had to buy the couture with her money, with her own money, to do these fashion shows called Ebony Fashion Fair, around the deep south of America in the 50s and 60s. This woman was so incredible. Eunice W. Johnson, Ebony magazine. I would have loved to have been her right hand.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  I would have loved to have gone to the shows with her and fought with her to get. I mean, what I have now, you know, access to everything is because of women like her. So Ebony magazine in the 40s and 50s, next to Eunice W. Johnson, would have been incredible.

• 1:15:26Steven Bartlett?

  Edward, thank you. Thank you for fighting because by doing so, you're laying the foundation and opening doors, not just for people in the fashion industry, but for people in every industry that come from where you come from, that look like you, including me, because of role models like you in our society. You're opening doors for people like me that are coming through in different industries so that we are accepted, enabled, and our talents are put first and foremost beyond anything else that might be our skin color, our background, or our creed. Your book is incredible. It's a very important book that I think is.

• 1:15:57Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:15:58Steven Bartlett?

  Tells a story, and as I call it, an impossible story of a young kid from Ghana that gets to the very top and becomes the first black editor in British Vogue's history. But it's also just such a human story, the struggles, that you're very vulnerable and open about. And the ultimate sort of triumph at the end of this story, which is, I call it the end of the story. I mean, you've still got a vision board, but a triumph that is impossible but important and generational. You're an incredible person. Thank you for fighting. Please do keep fighting. And I recommend everyone to go and check out this incredible book, A Visible Man, because it needs to be a visible book because it's certainly had a profound impact on my life. So, thank you, Edward.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you for having me. And keep on doing what you do.

• 1:16:39Steven Bartlett?

  I'm gonna. I hope you do too. Thank you, Edward.