Mary Queen of Scots & Her Sh*thead Husband

Mary Queen of Scots has gone down in history for her power struggle with her cousin, Elizabeth I. But this was just one of the challenges she faced. Another was that Mary's second husband, Lord Darnley, was one of history’s worst husbands. Estelle Paranque joins Kate for this episode to discuss Mary's disastrous love life, as well as how much of a threat she was to her cousin, Elizabeth I. This episode was edited by Natasha Hughes. The producer was Sophie Gee. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. You can take part in our listener surveyhere https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/6FFT7MK. All music from Epidemic Sounds. Betwixt the Sheets: History of Sex, Scandal & Society is a History Hit podcast. History Hit is part of Little Dot Studios, a Certified B Corp™ Voting is now open for the Listener's Choice Award at this year's Podcast Awards! UK & Ireland listeners please place your vote on the Spotify mobile app here: https://open.spotify.com/s/xhg6PJa Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Kate Lister?

  Do you want even more shocking and scandalous history? Like why the ancient Greek statues had such small manhoods? Or what went on behind closed doors in the Georgian era? Well, sign up to History Hit, where you can see me discover the scandalous side of history, as well as hundreds of hours of original documentaries, plus new releases every week, covering everything from prehistoric Scotland to the Treaty of Versailles. Sign up to join me in locations around the world and explore the past. Just visit historyhit.com/subscribe.

• 0:37Speaker 01

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• 1:10Kate Lister?

  Hello, my lovely Betwixters. It's me, Kate Lister. Welcome back to Betwix the Sheets. Hello, how fabulous it is to see you once again, you little historical pervert. Yeah, I know, I know what you really are. I know why you're here. It's why I'm here as well. But before we can go any further together, I do have to tell you, this is an adult podcast spoken by adults, other adults, about adult things in an adult's way, covering adult things, you being adult too. Do you feel safer? I certainly feel safer. Right, let's crack on.

• 1:38Kate Lister?

  Welcome to Edinburgh. It is 6am, 6am on July 29th, 1545. The sun has barely been up for an hour. There are joggers out and about, there always are. I don't know what inspires people to get out of bed this early, but over at Holyrood Palace, a young couple are getting married at 6 in the morning. But the hour isn't the only unusual thing about this wedding. The 22-year-old bride is wearing widow's black. And her 19-year-old groom is shimmering beside her in a jewel-encrusted outfit. Oh, did I mention that this is Mary Queen of Scots and her shithead husband, Lord Darnley?

• 2:39Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome back to Betwix the Sheets, the history of sex scandal in society with me, Kate Lister. In the 16th century, there was not one, but two, Orban-haired queens ruling over the British Isles. One was Elizabeth I, but today we're talking about her cousin, Mary Queen of Scots, and the terrible, terrible men around her. And by terrible, I mean the irredeemably awful Lord Darnley. The man was universally loathed and a walking red flag. So what on earth did Mary see in him? Today, I'm joined by Estelle Perank to find out more about Mary and the problematic men in her life. Spoiler, the stories do not end well. Crowns on and dynamite at the ready, everyone.

• 3:24Kate Lister?

  Let's do this.

• 3:32Kate Lister?

  Hello and welcome to Betwix the Sheets. It's only Estelle Perank. How you doing, baby?

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me again.

• 3:40Kate Lister?

  Of course.

• 3:41Speaker 02

  I'm so ready for this one. I think it's, I wonder if it's going to be our best one, honestly?

• 3:45Kate Lister?

  It might be, and we've been saving a special one for our new Betwix the Sheets studio, live in person.

• 3:51Speaker 02

  Absolutely lovely.

• 3:51Kate Lister?

  It looks good, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah.

• 3:54Speaker 02

  It looks cosy.

• 3:55Kate Lister?

  Yeah, all right, well, let's make it not very cosy, because we're here to talk about Mary Queen of Scots and Darnley. I'm glad you said that, because I've got a confession. I don't like Mary Queen of Scots.

• 4:06Speaker 02

  I love you, Kate. I knew that's why we were meant to be best friends. Obviously, you do not like her. Me neither.

• 4:11Kate Lister?

  I'm so sorry, everybody. I know there are Mary Queen of Scots stans out there, but I just...

• 4:16Speaker 02

  Don't be sorry. I think it's okay to not like her, but also respect her for the brain she had, because you know that I'm working on the coded letters of Mary Stuart? And they completely changed my views on...

• 4:29Kate Lister?

  Oh, that's something.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  It didn't, yeah, it didn't make, they didn't make me like her.

• 4:34Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  Right? But what I realised, that this idea of a stupid woman, and I think we're going to discuss this with the topic of this episode, but for me, she's not at all.

• 4:46Kate Lister?

  She's not a stupid woman? That's the first thing that we can dispel about her?

• 4:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely not.

• 4:50Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 4:50Speaker 02

  She's absolutely not stupid. She's so smart. I really love her agency. I love the fact that she's, she's a bit bossy.

• 4:58Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 4:59Speaker 02

  And I love a bossy girl. And she's, but she, she is someone that I don't think I would have gotten well with. Like, I don't, I don't think I would have been able, like, to click on any type of level with her, and that's probably why I still do not like her.

• 5:14Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Despite the fact that I do give her credit.

• 5:19Kate Lister?

  It's more than I do, but...

• 5:21Speaker 02

  But maybe, maybe the letters will make you change your mind when you realise a few things about her. And even like this episode...

• 5:27Kate Lister?

  Oh, good, okay.

• 5:27Speaker 02

  Because I think this episode is really interesting, because, let's face it, her marriage to Henry Darnley is probably what we can call the most stupid idea she's ever had, and actually, not really.

• 5:41Kate Lister?

  Oh, okay. All right, well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, just for anyone that's, that's watching, that maybe has heard the name, but is not really sure who she is. And there might be a few people out there like that. Who was Mary Queen of Scots?

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Okay, Mary Queen of Scots is the daughter of James the Fifth of Scotland, Stuart, and of, because that's the most important part, sorry, guys, especially Scottish people, you're going to hate me for this, but the most important part, she's a daughter of Marie de Guise, and the Guises are a very, very powerful French family. Kate, I mean it. You have to understand that they have an extremely strong claim on the French throne.

• 6:22Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 6:23Speaker 02

  And they have land, money, armies, like, and lots of supporters and people that are completely devoted to them. Why does it matter? It matters because of everything that's going to happen in Mary Queen of Scots' life. So basically, she was born in Scotland, but her father dies, she becomes, well, yeah, she's Queen of Scotland, but then she's sent away to France to be raised, and she's promised to the Dauphin, Francis II, who's the son of Henry II.

• 6:57Kate Lister?

  How old is she when she goes on a jaunt front?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  She's five.

• 7:00Kate Lister?

  Oh, like, really little?

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Very little. She's French.

• 7:03Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  She's completely French. She's raised at the French court. You also have to understand, because people tell me, yeah, but she spent the first five years in Scot, yes, with her mother, who's French.

• 7:12Kate Lister?

  Who's French.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  There was no, like, of course you learn, you know, other languages than French, obviously, but all her letters, or most of her letters, I would say 90% of her letters, are in French. And I'm going to give you a bit of a something.

• 7:27Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay.

• 7:28Speaker 02

  But in the coded letters of Mary Stuart, the ones that have been decoded by the scientists, and now we're on a team working on them, transcribing, translating and everything, she said, "As long as I live, my heart shall remain French."

• 7:43Kate Lister?

  That's a French chick, isn't it, that?

• 7:45Speaker 02

  She's very, very French. And I would, I would, people would say, but are you saying she didn't care about Scotland? A little, yes. I think when you really look at what she wanted in her life, she didn't want to go back to Scotland, she really wanted the English throne. You do not see this kind of devotion that people have in their mind, that she's the, she's almost a romantic queen in their head. You know, every time I go to Scotland, there's this kind of idea about Mary Queen of Scots that seems to me to be completely opposite of what, who she actually was, and what she actually said, and, you know, who she actually cared about. So I think there's a bit of a disconnect here.

• 8:26Kate Lister?

  Okay. So how did she get to be Queen of Scotland, then? If she's French, my heart is French, she's in France.

• 8:30Speaker 02

  Because she's the daughter of James the Fifth of Scotland.

• 8:33Kate Lister?

  Okay, oh, yeah, you're right.

• 8:34Speaker 02

  So we sent, you have to realise here, the alliance that was made, it's not a French princess, you know, what I'm talking about, like, it's not the daughter of Henry II that I sent to Scotland. It is Marie de Guise, from the Guise family. Her dad is the Duke of Guise, the first Duke of Guise, and he's Claude, and they're sending, and having that influence and power to send your daughter over there to send, you know, it's, it's very incredible. And I would even say, like, for me, what's even more crazy is the fact that we were trying to reconnect the alliance between Scotland and France by giving one of the

• 9:15Speaker 02

  most powerful French noble family a lot of power and agency.

• 9:20Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 9:21Speaker 02

  And then it's when you realise that Marie de Guise, is she working, so her mother, Mary Queen of Scots' mother, is she working for the French royal family, so Francis I and Henry II? Or is she working for a family? And the more you look at it, the more you look at, in the, because I'm obsessed with the Guise family in terms of how they work together, because it's very rare to have this type of, and I will, I'm going to say the word equality, because men and women are equal in the family, but they have different roles.

• 9:55Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 9:55Speaker 02

  Due to their gender.

• 9:56Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 9:56Speaker 02

  Yeah? Marie de Guise didn't want to go to Scotland, she didn't have a choice, but then she did her role, like, she played her role. And their motto, Kate, is "All for one". So yes, they're the musketeers, the three musketeers, but there's plenty of them. It is incredible. And Mary Queen of Scots is the same in her head.

• 10:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 02

  "All for one", and she only thinks about the Guises. So that's who Mary Queen of Scots is. And obviously, we only know about the rivalry with Elizabeth I, and it's a big rivalry, and obviously, it takes a huge part of their lives, and I will argue that they would have never, ever had any chances at getting on.

• 10:37Speaker 02

  First, because they had very different personalities.

• 10:40Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 10:40Speaker 02

  Two, because Mary Queen of Scots and her family never ever recognised Elizabeth the First legitimacy on the English throne. So for them, Mary Queen of Scots was raised and she thought, like, you know, like.

• 10:54Kate Lister?

  She's Catholic too, right?

• 10:55Speaker 02

  Yes, Catholic, but I think it's beyond, you know, religion. I really, I think.

• 10:59Kate Lister?

  It's beyond that.

• 11:01Speaker 02

  It's beyond religion. I think we don't really understand how religion worked in the sixteenth century and we we try to to really explain it from a very modern point of view, when actually it's much more complex. It's about power, it's about politics. And for for Mary Stuart is like, I am the rightful Queen of England. When in fifteen fifty eight, seventeenth November fifteen fifty eight, Mary the First died, Mary, Queen of Scots, who's was about to become Queen of France, because her father-in-law was about to die in July fifteen fifty nine, she declared herself Queen of England. Used the coat of arm, the exact same coat of arms that Elizabeth was using, used the title and that.

• 11:42Kate Lister?

  She's not out to make friends, is she?

• 11:44Speaker 02

  No, it created problems from, but I think Elizabeth had always known that there would be a problem with the Stuart line. And Henry, Henry the Eighth knew as well, he he tried to get them, to get rid of them in his succession, you know, uh, act. He didn't want any of them in his will. He didn't want any of them to be on the English throne. But I think we go beyond that when you really think about it, because here you I'm talking about a person rivalry. It's almost like they're set up from the start from being rivals.

• 12:10Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  By that time, rivals doesn't just mean rivals, it means death. Like, in in Mary Queen of Scots, you have to understand. It's almost only one can live.

• 12:22Kate Lister?

  Okay, so we often forget that she was Queen of France for a bit. She was Queen of France, Queen of Scotland, and decided she should be Queen of England as well. She's going for the hat trick.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Isn't it incredible?

• 12:31Kate Lister?

  That, I mean, the ball, I don't like her, but the balls of that woman, especially when there was another queen on the throne, just to go, um, excuse me.

• 12:38Speaker 02

  Excuse me, that should be me.

• 12:39Kate Lister?

  I think I should be the queen, no?

• 12:40Speaker 02

  Be the queen.

• 12:41Kate Lister?

  No? So how long was she Queen of France for? And how does she end up back in Scotland?

• 12:47Speaker 02

  Okay, so July fifteen fifty nine, her father-in-law died. And then her, her husband Francis the Second are King and Queen of France. But her husband is gonna die in December fifteen sixty.

• 13:00Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 13:01Speaker 02

  So it's about like not even eighteen months.

• 13:03Kate Lister?

  God, it's not, wow. Oh, that's very short.

• 13:05Speaker 02

  Funny, Kate.

• 13:06Kate Lister?

  Go on.

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Is that Mary doesn't want to go back to Scotland. So she asked, first of all, it's so funny because she asked Catherine. Basically, the Geese are like going to Catherine de Medici and say, maybe Mary could marry your next son? And Mary Catherine de Medici is like, absolutely not, over my dead body. Um, so that's not happening. But then Mary Stuart said, it's fine, but I want to stay in France. I want to be in Queen Dowager of France. I don't want to go back to Scotland. And Catherine de Medici said, no, you go back to Scotland.

• 13:40Kate Lister?

  See, that's creating problems all round, isn't it? Because like Catherine de Medici is just like, no, sling your hook, be off with you. But then, so she was Queen of France and now she's been kind of.

• 13:51Speaker 02

  But she was, she's all been been Queen of Scotland, Kate, that.

• 13:53Kate Lister?

  She hasn't been Queen of Scotland.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  No, no, she was.

• 13:55Kate Lister?

  But she was.

• 13:56Speaker 02

  She was, and that's why it's crazy. I, sorry, I I'm gonna go a bit intense here. But that's why it's so crazy, guys. It's like all the Scottish people who love her to bits. She didn't want to come back to you guys. She did, she wanted to stay in France. So I don't know, I even know why, to this day, you're so devoted to someone who didn't like your country.

• 14:15Kate Lister?

  Mary.

• 14:16Speaker 02

  Right?

• 14:17Kate Lister?

  But it must have been a bit of an awkward, weird thing. Anyway, because she hasn't been Queen of Scotland. Or she's not been there being the queen. And now she's just gonna turn back and be like, hi, guys.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  It was, it was.

• 14:27Kate Lister?

  I'm I'm the queen now.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  And not just that. So her mother had been Queen Regent for her.

• 14:32Kate Lister?

  Oh, so she's there, right, okay, I like keeping the seat warm.

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and she's gonna, and she's, but it was very hard for Mary the Geese. Like, you have to understand, obviously, Scotland is not different from England or from from France for that matter. You have factions, you have power play and all of this. And it was honestly a shit show, right? A complete shit show. But what happened as well is that at that time, there's the Scottish Reformation. They're changing, you know, they're no longer Catholic. So like the hatred against Mary the Geese is very high. And Mary the Geese is gonna die as well. So before like her daughter comes away, she's gonna die. So kind of, it was good in a way that she had to come back and went back. And I'm gonna give her that. Let's, that's me being nice.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  But Mary, Queen of Scots, when she went back to Scotland, is actually not a bad queen. What I mean by that is that, as I said, she plays with the cards she has. And what I like about her is that she understood, okay, we, there's a Scottish Reformation, I'm not gonna fight my people. As long as they allow me to have my Catholicism, my private mass and everything, everything's gonna go well. And I think that's a very.

• 15:42Kate Lister?

  That's a smart move.

• 15:43Speaker 02

  That's a smart move. That lots of kings or queens at our time don't have, right? Like that kind of.

• 15:48Kate Lister?

  Do you know where she isn't smart, though? That men.

• 15:52Speaker 02

  No, no, no, okay, let's talk about this. No, let's talk about this.

• 15:55Kate Lister?

  But that's a big problem, right? Because she's come back and like, they don't like queens very much. They've got fucking loads of them at this point in history, but they don't like them very much. And then there's this issue of like, well, and who are you gonna marry? Because, and like, and a fear and a threat of like, well, whoever she marries, that's gonna be, might just turn out to be our king.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 16:12Kate Lister?

  So it's a big issue who this wee lassie is gonna marry.

• 16:16Speaker 02

  But, but Kate, that's, okay, let's go, let's go to this, because our second marriage is actually not something stupid at all. Listen. I'm gonna explain to you. I thought, I thought it was stupid. Yeah, but in hindsight, right?

• 16:28Kate Lister?

  Okay, go on, go on.

• 16:30Speaker 02

  And also, let's, I think we need to like to travel back in time and to put ourselves in her shoes. And I can't believe that I'm saying all of this defending her. It's just, oh my god. If you had told me ten years ago that I would be with you here defending her, that would be, oh, crazy. I'd be like, I don't think so. Someone has kidnapped me. But here I am. No, but seriously, from fifteen sixty to fifteen sixty five, Mary Queen of Scots is someone that everyone wants to marry. So there's like lots of discussion with Don Carlos, uh, Philip the Second of Spain's son, and Elizabeth the First, and Catherine de Medici.

• 17:09Kate Lister?

  Doesn't Elizabeth try and like palm off, um, her, her little boyfriend?

• 17:14Speaker 02

  Yes, but that's, um, yeah, she's gonna.

• 17:17Kate Lister?

  Thank you, deadly.

• 17:17Speaker 02

  The one who's gonna marry the salad.

• 17:19Kate Lister?

  Yes, the one that, thank you, yes, the one who marries the salad. But doesn't she like dangle him?

• 17:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah, okay, so, so, okay, I I think there's lots to unpack because I think it's very interesting. So you have Don Carlos, who is like the son of Philip, the, the heir to Philip the Second of Spain. And both Catherine de Medici and Elizabeth are gonna do everything to ruin the alliance. So they send their. They send their, yeah, they send their own like private, like ambassadors, special envoys. It's so funny because it's almost as if right now they had a common like goal of, oh no, that's, that one is not happening.

• 17:52Kate Lister?

  We can't let Scotland allow, allow the front Spain.

• 17:55Speaker 02

  No, that's absolutely not. And for Catherine de Medici, she's more like, I'm not gonna let the Geese having an alliance with Spain, right? Like, that would be crazy. So you have that. But you're right. Elizabeth is like. It's so funny because then when you look at the relationship of Elizabeth and Robert de Lys, it's a bit weird, all right? Uh, because she does offer Robert, thinking that she'll be in control of him and through him she'll be in control of Mary.

• 18:24Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 18:25Speaker 02

  And obviously Mary's like.

• 18:26Kate Lister?

  I think not.

• 18:29Speaker 02

  First of all, I think that knowing Mary is like, you do not decide for me, right?

• 18:33Kate Lister?

  That seems to be quite a common theme with with Mary is just.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Do not decide for me.

• 18:37Kate Lister?

  No.

• 18:38Speaker 02

  No, no. And also, I'm not gonna marry your kind of.

• 18:42Kate Lister?

  Well, they're sloppy seconds. I'm not having that.

• 18:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, like, there, there's so many rumours about those two being promised kiss.

• 18:50Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  That I'm not gonna have any of that. And and what I love is that obviously she, she, she plays the game. She's like, oh, yeah, he's charming. And but eh.

• 19:02Kate Lister?

  So why Darnley then? Because he.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  Why Darnley?

• 19:04Kate Lister?

  Why? Who is he?

• 19:06Speaker 02

  Well, he is a tutor as well.

• 19:09Kate Lister?

  Oh, he is.

• 19:10Speaker 02

  The grandson of Margaret Tudor.

• 19:11Kate Lister?

  That's not, all right, okay, so one point in his favour.

• 19:14Speaker 02

  That is a, that's all that matters. Like, they, they share the same grandmother with Mary Stuart. And he's a Catholic.

• 19:23Speaker 02

  And not only that, it's like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be honest with you.

• 19:29Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  I think the real, the real thing is personal. So the, for, for Mary, she's like, I'm not. Spain didn't happen. Who else could I marry? Right? Because for, for Mary, it's very important. She's not, she's not like Elizabeth. She's not talking about, you know, oh, I'll be a virgin. Oh, sure, she's no longer a virgin.

• 19:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, that ship's sailed.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, so she's, and so she knows the importance of.

• 19:53Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 19:54Speaker 02

  Of having that. I think, I think for her, uh, the goal is like, I need to to try. And, um, who else could it be? And obviously, that's someone.

• 20:04Kate Lister?

  Literally anyone.

• 20:05Speaker 02

  No, but listen, listen, like, on paper, please go back. You do not know anything that's gonna happen. Go back in fifteen sixty five. And you see that guy, you think, okay, he has, he has Tudor blood.

• 20:17Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 20:17Speaker 02

  That strengthened my, my claim on the English throne. He's English.

• 20:22Kate Lister?

  Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  And not just that, then he arrives, we meet.

• 20:27Kate Lister?

  She was dignitised.

• 20:28Speaker 02

  And he's so gorgeous. She said he's the lastiest long thing I've ever seen.

• 20:36Kate Lister?

  Didn't she say, like, she made a dick joke and she was like, he's the best, the best proportioned tall man.

• 20:41Speaker 02

  The prob, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and well, maybe she.

• 20:47Kate Lister?

  We've all made stupid decisions when it comes to good looking men that are well hung. That's just.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  I mean, if it didn't happen to you, just know that it happened to me.

• 20:57Speaker 02

  Definitely.

• 20:58Kate Lister?

  I've never put the country in jeopardy, though, over my ridiculous decisions.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  That's because you're not queen, but otherwise I think you might have. I don't, I don't want to be mean here, but like.

• 21:10Kate Lister?

  He but he's, oh, he's just the worst, though, because he's good looking, well hung, apparently. Uh, he's rich, he's titled, but he's an asshole, isn't he?

• 21:20Speaker 02

  She doesn't know. Yeah, oh, yes, he's absolutely. So what I think we need to to realise is that, so they met. And then she's like, she's like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna have a piece of that.

• 21:31Kate Lister?

  Yeah, I can't, I can't blame her for that.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm gonna have a piece of that. And then she writes to the Guises, her family in France. And she said that, she said, I'm gonna have a piece of that. And they're like, no, absolutely not.

• 21:44Kate Lister?

  On what grounds?

• 21:45Speaker 02

  They, they do know, uh, and that's, that's the thing that I do not understand in the letters. Is that they don't really explain why they do not want him. Yeah, because he's Catholic, strengthened her claim on the English throne. And I think partly is of the reasons of why they're saying no, it's probably because of what's happening in France. So when the religious wars they've started and it's, it's all a bit messy. And I'm wondering if they're like. Not, not think, you know, not having enough time to give, to be fair, they, in a way, they were right, right? They were saying no.

• 22:16Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Mary said, well, I didn't ask you, yeah, I didn't ask you for permission, so.

• 22:23Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  This ship has sailed as well, so she, she goes for it. And I think that I'm gonna give them a bit of happy times. So the, where they met, I think there was a lot of, lots of lust.

• 22:36Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  And until they marry and everything, I think they probably did stuff in between, um, because she, she was really fond of him. And when they got married, you know, it's like the, the worst narcissist guy you've ever met in your life.

• 22:51Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 22:52Speaker 02

  Do you have it in mind?

• 22:53Kate Lister?

  I've, oh, I, yeah, I've dated them, yeah.

• 22:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. And, and so the, it's like the mask.

• 22:59Kate Lister?

  Slips.

• 22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:00Kate Lister?

  The love bombing and then the mask.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  And it's like, okay, so now we're married, um, so I want to be named king. And he wants the crown matrimonial, which means that basically they join rulers.

• 23:12Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  And if she dies, he continues reading for her, right? And she's like. No, like, I don't think you understand, I'm, babe.

• 23:24Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:25Speaker 02

  I love you to bits, you gorgeous, but I don't think you understood who you are dealing with. I am the regnant queen.

• 23:34Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  I've been raised in France, which is the most glorious court of Europe. Sorry, guys, I had to say it. So, no, you're not, no, wait, no, you're not, no, no, no, no, you're gonna be my consort and you're gonna stay in your place.

• 23:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 02

  It's like, I think you, it's like, I think you haven't understood who you're dealing with. I'm your husband. Husband means I'm in charge of you. So the thing is, so right away, so you have, I don't know, I think, like, how, how long are we gonna give them a happy time? Few, like, six, seven, eight, like, you know, like a very honeymoon, but that doesn't last that long. And then they go head to head, right? Like, it's, so. I don't know what happens really in the bedroom, apart from the fact that eventually she's gonna obviously have a son with him.

• 24:23Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, she does, don't she? Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  So, so obviously, something has worked there.

• 24:26Kate Lister?

  Yep, yep.

• 24:27Speaker 02

  But, um. They go head to head on everything. She refused to give, so unless she gives it to him, the crown matrimonial. He can't get, you know, he can't force her, he can't get her. I mean, he can't force, I don't know. I think it was part of, of how he brutalised her.

• 24:42Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  And it just completely changed. I think it must have been so terrifying for Mary, because you have to realise that her first marriage, she's with someone that she's. Totally in control of, right? But, and they, they share, like, I mean, they share, she, she's queen consort. Um, of France, not Queen Regent, and, but her husband is so, Francis the Second is so in love with her.

• 25:06Kate Lister?

  Hmm, very different vibes.

• 25:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and probably soft and gentle, and I do not see Henry Donnelly being like this. And I think that though, at first, he must have been like, oh, that's nice. Then it must have been like, oh, I don't like that anymore. Do you see what I mean? Like, it's.

• 25:21Kate Lister?

  But doesn't he murder her mate, Ritzio?

• 25:23Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 25:24Kate Lister?

  See, that's not nice.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  I mean, it's more than, I mean, let, let's talk about, I think that's, that's crazy. Because it's, it doesn't happen, you know, out of nowhere. He's just getting more and more violent. You have, like, in the archives, you have scenes where he's just, um, screaming at her.

• 25:40Kate Lister?

  Oh, wow.

• 25:41Speaker 02

  He's not, he's not a nice person. And lots of Scottish people are also, you know, Scottish lords are like, don't really like that guy. You know, he's, he's, he's not, he's not right. And David Ritzio was one of the closest vices to, um, Mary Stewart. There's no relationship. I want, I want us to stop with this. I do not see Mary Stewart having a lover.

• 26:04Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  Uh, whatever we say about her, that does not fit. The letters I've read of her. I do not see her being, uh, she, she was extremely pious. Religion was really important for her. Yes. Apparently lust was also a very, I think that was important to her, but I think it's, it was still linked to a marriage thing. I don't think she was like someone who would.

• 26:24Kate Lister?

  Any chance Ritzio was Donnelly's lover? Cause I've heard that as well.

• 26:27Speaker 02

  No, absolutely not.

• 26:28Kate Lister?

  No.

• 26:29Speaker 02

  Actually, there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever in the archives. I, I, I've read people saying there was. And the premise is like, I checked the sources and I did not see it.

• 26:38Kate Lister?

  It's not there.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  Uh, uh, no, what I've seen many, many times in the archives is Henry Donnelly saying that he. Really thinks that Mary is sleeping with him.

• 26:48Kate Lister?

  Right, okay.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  And he's very scared, but at no point I have, you know, it's in Mary Queen Scott's movie as well. And I know, like, they, they are very respectable historians and I respect their works and everything, but I just do not understand how. I did not see that source, like, it's, it's, it's just, I can't find it. So. If you have it, please send it to me. I would love to see it. But what I know for sure, and I'll send you the sources that actually say. That Henry Donnelly is going mad because he thinks that they're spending too much time together.

• 27:18Kate Lister?

  So this is jealousy on his part, that's why he kills Ritzio.

• 27:21Speaker 02

  Well, I think it's not just that. I think, I don't think it's just that. I think it's the, the fact that David Ritzio has more and more influence on her.

• 27:29Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  And that he doesn't like the fact that a man can get her to do things or. Has so much, like, the relationship, you, you have to imagine that they, David and Mary were close in the sense. Again, I do not think they were a promised kiss, but I think that they were close in terms of, like, thinking the same way. And maybe she confided in him.

• 27:51Kate Lister?

  Maybe.

• 27:52Speaker 02

  So maybe he said a few things, you know, like a few remarks.

• 27:55Kate Lister?

  With the lords as well, wasn't he?

• 27:56Speaker 02

  It's just, you know, maybe he was someone, I would see David Ritzio as someone maybe more effeminate in a way, like that was, uh.

• 28:04Kate Lister?

  I like to think of, of Mary Queen Scott's as being like Ritzio's beard. You know, like, that she's, that he's, he's a lovely gay Italian man and that they sit up late, like, late at night.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  I could see that. I just don't see Henry Donnelly being gay at all.

• 28:17Kate Lister?

  That's off the table.

• 28:18Speaker 02

  I, I've never seen, no.

• 28:20Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 28:20Speaker 02

  I know, absolutely not.

• 28:22Kate Lister?

  That, these are good myth busting.

• 28:24Speaker 02

  I think so. I think so. And, and then obviously the scene where it's not just that he, he murdered.

• 28:29Kate Lister?

  It's really awful, isn't it?

• 28:30Speaker 02

  It's in front of her. She's seven months, eight months pregnant. And it's awful because David Ritz is literally on the floor trying to grab her skirt, like, save me. And I'm like, oh, my god.

• 28:42Kate Lister?

  It's really tragic. It's horrible.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  It is, it is horrible. It is, it is.

• 28:47Kate Lister?

  Like dragged out, like literally screaming and gurgling and she, she was threatened with a sword that they were gonna kill her if she didn't give him over.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  And he's stabbed, yeah. And at that moment.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  You know, I, I discussed with you, like, the fact that the, the, the mask obviously slipped, but. Then there was lots of violence in terms of words. You know, it starts always, always with words. First someone shouts at you.

• 29:12Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Then maybe they slap you.

• 29:14Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 29:14Speaker 02

  Then maybe they punch you.

• 29:15Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Speaker 02

  But then.

• 29:16Kate Lister?

  It's an escalation.

• 29:17Speaker 02

  It's an escalation to the point where, like, here we are at. I, for me, I almost, that's maybe my academic hat here, but I would almost analyse it as here, Donnelly is even.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  I was going to say to kill a, a part of herself, but listen, like, what I mean is like, the fact that it's in front of her. Someone she really liked, someone she really respected, someone that was close to her, it's, it's a warning, right? I can kill, like, I can kill you. I have that violence in me.

• 29:45Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  And I can do it myself. And there will be men with me. And, you know, like this type of, like, completely trying to.

• 29:53Kate Lister?

  She must have been terrified.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And.

• 29:55Kate Lister?

  As much, as much as I'm not her fan, she must have been terrified.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  Exactly. And here being like, you know what, there's, where's your family? Because in France, she, they would have been, oh my god. I think that if, if, no, it's, it's not possible. I think her uncles would have, like, lost the plot. Her grandmother would have lost the plot. Her cut, and now, her cousins would have been like, you're dead. You, you, you know, you touch one of us, you're dead. You know, like, it's, it's very, but here she's in Scotland and she's alone.

• 30:28Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle after this short break.

• 30:35Kate Lister?

  In case you weren't aware, World Mental Health Day takes place in October. And I don't know about you, but I'm taking this as a reminder to practise some proper self-care. Saying no to plans I don't want to go to, guilt-free snacking and Halloween movie marathons. It's also the perfect time to check in with yourself and your mental health. For many, it can mean taking that step and speaking to a professional who can help and guide you through any difficulties you're having. But often when you try to do that, it's still way harder than it should be. A lot of online therapy platforms don't accept insurance at all, which means even during a month focused on mental health, you're stuck paying out of pocket or signing up for an expensive monthly subscription.

• 31:19Kate Lister?

  This is where Rula comes in. They partner with over 120 insurance plans, making the average co-pay just $15 per session. That's real therapy from licensed professionals at a price that actually makes sense. Because the whole point of World Mental Health Day is making sure people actually get help, not just think about it. And Rula sticks with you throughout your journey, checking in to make sure your care is actually helping you move forward. With World Mental Health Day this October, it's a good reminder that taking care of your mental health can start with one step. Visit rula.com/shetess to get started. That's R-U-L-A dot com slash S-H-E-E-T-S.

• 32:01Kate Lister?

  You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget.

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Hi there, I'm Dan, host of Dan Snow's History Podcast. And I can imagine on these dark winter nights, all you're going to do is curl up with a cup of tea and get lost in an amazing story. Well, I can help you with that. Twice a week, I tell you the most dramatic and extraordinary stories from history with details I can guarantee you've never heard before. Feel the frostbite of that grisly failed American invasion of Canada in the dead of winter. Imagine every clash and blow at the Battle of Bosworth. Follow Eleanor of Accretaine, one of the most powerful women in the medieval world, as she goes on crusade to the Holy Land with 300 handmaidens in tow.

• 32:47Speaker 04

  She leads her own army. Everyone goes gaga for Eleanor.

• 32:50Speaker 03

  And trace the voyage of the first Vikings as they arrive on Iceland's lonely shores. For the best historical stories to get lost in, check out Dan Snow's History.

• 33:18Speaker 02

  So, does she make bad decisions or she's just left with not really good ones? Because, you know, let's go back, so we continue, like, right? Darnley kills Ritzier, but then obviously lords don't like Darnley. Again, we go back to the factions and he's going to be murdered, right?

• 33:42Speaker 02

  The house explodes, but we find him.

• 33:44Kate Lister?

  We'll get to that. How much time is there between Ritzier being murdered and Darnley dying in mysterious circumstances?

• 33:51Speaker 02

  It's not long. It's like, I think it's less than a year or something.

• 33:55Kate Lister?

  Yeah, not long.

• 33:55Speaker 02

  It's not long at all. It's not long. Yeah, but, but let's, okay. I do not think that's because David Ritzier was killed, right? It's because he's getting dangerous, it's getting out of hand.

• 34:07Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 34:07Speaker 02

  And you want to discuss if I think she has something to do with it?

• 34:12Kate Lister?

  Well, I think we have to, because like, a sort of a more comforting story that we can tell ourselves is that Darnley was absolutely hideous and he was abusive and he's one of those just irredeemable people in history. Like, you could try your best to go back and be like, no, he just had a bad PR team.

• 34:27Speaker 02

  No, no, he's.

• 34:28Kate Lister?

  It's irredeemably horrendous.

• 34:30Speaker 02

  He's horrible. He's horrible.

• 34:31Kate Lister?

  And so the nicer story is that, like, yeah.

• 34:34Speaker 02

  She got it. She got him.

• 34:35Kate Lister?

  That she got him. What do you think?

• 34:40Speaker 02

  I think, okay, that's what I think. I think she must have known.

• 34:44Kate Lister?

  She was at least in on it.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  She, yeah.

• 34:47Kate Lister?

  Why do you say that?

• 34:48Speaker 02

  Mostly because of the fact that, so if you look at the evidence, right? Let's, because I think it's very hard when you're a historian, because we're trying to be detective of the past. And, I mean, when you talk about cold case, we're talking about 500 years.

• 35:04Kate Lister?

  Explain what happened to him, because there'll be people watching that don't know how Darnley died.

• 35:08Speaker 02

  So Darnley died, like, well, how did he die? Exactly. No, but like, that's the problem. So the story goes that his house, there's an explosion in his house, but he's found at the other side of the garden with some of his servants and his men. And it looks more like he's been.

• 35:25Kate Lister?

  Strangled.

• 35:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. He's suffocated, right? They're saying that he's suffocated and everything. So I would say that he managed to escape and the people who did that got him.

• 35:35Kate Lister?

  Anything about the house blowing up, like where, what rooms blew up, what time it was, who may have done this, anything?

• 35:41Speaker 02

  Well, we, well, everyone thought that it was the Earl of Bothwell that is behind it. So he was the first suspect, right? And the reason why Mary is linked to that is because Mary is going to marry him a month later. But, but wait, let's, let's, let's go back. So how the house exploded and things, I'm not sure. To be fair, I haven't even myself been in the archives to look at that type of evidence. So I don't want to tell you things that I do not know for sure.

• 36:05Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  But what we know that is definitely there was an explosion. And wherever it happened, you obviously have more than one exit in the house. And so he definitely got away.

• 36:18Kate Lister?

  So explosion's gone off and he was in his night dress as well, wasn't he?

• 36:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, yeah, it was, it was definitely at night.

• 36:23Kate Lister?

  It was at night and he's run off?

• 36:25Speaker 02

  He's run off, but what we know then is like, obviously there must have been people doing. What I'm trying to tell you is that they were, they were on site.

• 36:32Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 02

  Saw what that, what was happening and then.

• 36:35Kate Lister?

  Went after him.

• 36:36Speaker 02

  After him and everyone with him.

• 36:39Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 36:39Speaker 02

  Because he's not the only one who died that night.

• 36:41Kate Lister?

  This is not a death of natural causes.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Definitely not.

• 36:44Kate Lister?

  No.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  And it's not, you know, an accident and it's not like anything like that.

• 36:49Kate Lister?

  It's like, whoops, I strangled myself. No.

• 36:52Speaker 02

  Oops, I don't know what happened here. But it is, for me, I think here with Mary, Queen of Scots, it's like, people always come to me and she's, in a way, she's a murderer. It depends on what you call a murderer, because I do not think she was there.

• 37:07Kate Lister?

  She wasn't there. Do you know where she was? What's your alibi, Mary?

• 37:11Speaker 02

  No, I don't think like, well, she was definitely not with her. No, at that point in their, in their relationship, they.

• 37:17Kate Lister?

  Oh, yeah, okay, it's deteriorated.

• 37:19Speaker 02

  No, and they were not together. And I think she must have told the people, like, that's where he will be. Do you see, that's, that's where I think where our involvement might be.

• 37:29Kate Lister?

  Okay, okay.

• 37:30Speaker 02

  I think that's where, mostly because I find it very convenient, because even though their relationship had deteriorated, I think I found it highly convenient that she wasn't there.

• 37:40Kate Lister?

  She just happened not to be there.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, and neither was James, her son, right? So like, I think that's quite interesting. But for me, that's not, actually, that's not even the problem. The problem was, or the problem, yeah, the problem was, she married the man who was the.

• 37:57Kate Lister?

  The prime suspect.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  The prime suspect.

• 37:59Kate Lister?

  Another stupid choice. Or are you going to tell me that's not a stupid choice?

• 38:02Speaker 02

  I don't think it's a stupid choice.

• 38:03Kate Lister?

  Right.

• 38:04Speaker 02

  Do you want, do you want me to tell you what I think happened?

• 38:06Kate Lister?

  Well, yes, we better have to, but then we're going to have to go back to Darnley, because we can't do a whole love life, because we'd be here for weeks. But yes, tell me why.

• 38:14Speaker 02

  Because I think that Bothwell kidnapped and raped her.

• 38:19Kate Lister?

  Oh, I have heard this.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Why do I think that? She said it.

• 38:22Kate Lister?

  Okay, what did she say?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  She said she was abducted and violated. It's like by him. So like, when people say, oh my God, well, oh, she's so stupid. And even, I love my Elizabeth I, but even Elizabeth I, when she learned about the death of Darnley, you know, Elizabeth was really against the marriage. It went really bad for her because Darnley was actually an English subject and he didn't ask for permission. Like, it was a complete.

• 38:47Kate Lister?

  It was a whole mess.

• 38:48Speaker 02

  It was a whole mess. And also she realised what they were doing, right? Strangling the claim on the English throne. But, and also she didn't like Darnley. Anyway, wise women. But I think Elizabeth was very good at seeing, like.

• 39:03Kate Lister?

  What was going on?

• 39:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, judging people better than, than Mary did, absolutely. But here, when, when Henry Darnley died and there's the news that Mary's marrying Bothwell, Elizabeth wrote a letter to Mary that we have. And she's, basically, I'm going to paraphrase, guys, obviously she didn't say it like that, but she said, "How stupid are you? You should not marry, like, the prime suspect of the murder of your husband. You're going to look so bad, it's going to create problems, factions are going to rise against you. Like, what are you doing?" And she said, basically, sister.

• 39:38Speaker 02

  Please, listen to me, um. Avoid him, do not stay with him. And now, again, having read so many letters of Mary Stuart. That are coded, because the ones are the coded, she looks stupid. I mean, hundred percent. But the one that I coded, she, it's total different personality. I'm thinking, and for me, it's the real one, because it's where she speaks freely and everything. But for me, it's like, Mary is like, oh, my god. I don't want that. How would you, how do you think that it's my choice? And that's why for me, it makes so much sense that. She was left with no other choice. In Scotland, she has no longer any protection. It's not like in France again. It's, she doesn't, and the GIs are not gonna send, they have an army, and they're gonna, not gonna send.

• 40:23Speaker 02

  An army from, from, it's so da- dangerous to go to, you know, and again, we have the religious civil wars, they're not in a position where they can do much for her. They're already fighting in France, they're already killing people in France, they can't go to Scotland.

• 40:35Kate Lister?

  So she doesn't have anyone around her.

• 40:36Speaker 02

  She has no one, and you, I, I talked with lots of, um, professors, so why I say that is. It's not because I think your professors know better, but I'm talking here about people that have spent thirty years of their career, forty years of their career. On the topic, because I was always fascinated by the, the Bothwell thing.

• 40:53Kate Lister?

  Yes.

• 40:53Speaker 02

  It, it's just, for me, it was.

• 40:55Kate Lister?

  It's such a, such a strange move.

• 40:56Speaker 02

  Oh, my god, she's so stupid. Oh, my gosh, she's so stupid. And I loved hearing their, also their sides and. One of them told me, I always remember. I thought, oh, gosh, that, that's so, so funny. He said, that's Professor Michael Castier, he said, if Mary Stuart had stayed in Scotland. And managed to escape, you know, to, to, but stay in Scotland, a bit more north. She would have had enough time to rally support, because he said there were, because there were different factions, there were lords that really hated Bothwell.

• 41:32Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 41:32Speaker 02

  And they would have helped her. But the problem here we have is that. She doesn't feel safe at all, you know, it goes, so Bothwell is attacked, because that's the thing, it's like, it, it, the marriage is not accepted at all.

• 41:45Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 41:45Speaker 02

  And everyone sees that something wrong, but everyone thinks that she's responsible for all of it. That she killed Darnley, that she created that mess, that she led to Bothwell to believe that he could do it, that she wanted Bothwell as king. I do not think all of this is true. I think she thought that Darnley was a problem.

• 42:04Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 02

  That it would be good if he was.

• 42:06Kate Lister?

  Out the way.

• 42:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. But I think she didn't realise who Bothwell was again. Do you see, like, the pattern here? I think Mary is, okay, so I don't. I don't think Mary is stupid, but I think Mary is not quick at realising who she's dealing with.

• 42:18Kate Lister?

  Hmm.

• 42:19Speaker 02

  I think she did not see the monsters behind the masks.

• 42:23Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  Well, I think Elizabeth does, or used to, you know, I really think that Elizabeth does that really well. Mary Stuart, probably because of the way she was raised, you know, like, when you're like the most beautiful thing ever, like, you know, the, the.

• 42:36Kate Lister?

  Double queen.

• 42:37Speaker 02

  Do you see, do you, I think when Elizabeth had to fight for everything she had.

• 42:41Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  So you have to constantly question someone's motives, you have to always think about your safety. Mary Stuart never grew up like this. She was always protected, always loved. Even when they were like, people tried to poison her when she was a child in France. It didn't go well, her family stepped in, you know, they, she was massively protected. So I think she's never had this kind of. Way of seeing someone and thinking, okay, so if I, she, she was just, okay, she was just thinking, okay, if I tell him that.

• 43:11Kate Lister?

  She took people at their word.

• 43:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, if, if, then he's gonna be, I, I'll be able to reign on my own.

• 43:17Kate Lister?

  But she, she, oh, she's also becomes a sucker, where she finally, like, the downfall happens again, that's like a very ambitious, heroic, pretty young man, he says, I'm gonna rescue you. And she goes, okay, then.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  I, I, I, do you know what, I'm, I'm, I think more she's like, oh, well, then I'll get all the power again.

• 43:32Kate Lister?

  But it's that trusting thing again.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  Yes, it's so stupid. Yeah, and then she's like, yeah, yeah, but I wonder if they, if, if they even told her that. I think she's, they just talked about getting rid of him. I know what happens next, and I think in her head, because of her bringing, she's like, oh, yes, then I'll be, yeah, that's cool for me.

• 43:50Kate Lister?

  Then I'll be great.

• 43:51Speaker 02

  Be there, um, do your thing. And then she doesn't realise that the guy. He, Bothwell is, is completely a monster too.

• 44:00Kate Lister?

  He's horrendous as well, isn't he?

• 44:01Speaker 02

  So horrendous.

• 44:02Kate Lister?

  This, this, this marriage doesn't go well either.

• 44:04Speaker 02

  No, Mary, no, he literally, literally, I, I really believe her.

• 44:09Kate Lister?

  You believe, because I have heard historians argue that they don't believe that.

• 44:13Speaker 02

  So what, do they believe that they, I, I, I, are, are they mad? Do they believe that Mary?

• 44:18Kate Lister?

  Might be mad, they might be mad. So, no, no, no, let it rip, Estelle, I wanna know.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  I think you really think that a woman is gonna want, like, Mary Stuart doesn't like sharing power easily. Do you feel, Bothwell is not that charming on it, you know, he, he was not Darnley.

• 44:32Kate Lister?

  I mean, it is, it is a weird choice, isn't it? You'd have to say that.

• 44:35Speaker 02

  I'm so sorry, but I do not believe for a minute, so she was like, for my third husband, I was the ugly one. No, no, no. And also, he was not attractive. So there's no lust, there's nothing, and she wants it? Oh, come on, no, I'm not buying it.

• 44:48Kate Lister?

  Okay.

• 44:49Speaker 02

  And also, why do we always stop believing women when they tell you what happened?

• 44:54Kate Lister?

  Very true.

• 44:55Speaker 02

  Why, when a woman says, even Mary Stuart, who's super annoying, and I do not like her, but even, whoever a woman tells you. This happened to me, could we please just stop fucking about and just believe?

• 45:09Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  I do believe her. I do not see what she, I mean, what she gains of saying that it wasn't true.

• 45:16Speaker 02

  I do not think, at that time, I do not see what she gains.

• 45:18Kate Lister?

  If we're gonna play devil's advocate.

• 45:20Speaker 02

  Tell me.

• 45:20Kate Lister?

  Right? This, this is all I've been coming up with on the spot, is why, why would she say that? Because she realised everyone was furious with her for marrying him, could she put, and it all went wrong, and could that possibly?

• 45:30Speaker 02

  If she liked him, she would probably stand by him. I really, I, for me, for me, for me, no, for me, I really think that she didn't see that one coming.

• 45:40Kate Lister?

  So I don't, I don't wanna defend Bothwell, by the way, I'm just, just interrogating.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  But for me, simp- uh, simple, I mean, that's, that's my view how it happened, for me.

• 45:56Kate Lister?

  I'll be back with Estelle after this short break. Hello, Betwixters, I'm jumping in here because I have some very exciting news. Betwixt the Sheets has set up camp. On YouTube. That's right, it took us a while, but we are there now. So if you are the kind of person. Who likes to see your podcasts as well as hear your podcasts, you can now go and find us right there, and the link is in the show notes. And please remember to like and subscribe, because the people in charge of the money really do like that.

• 46:36Kate Lister?

  Right, let's get on with it.

• 46:54Speaker 02

  Darnley becomes a problem, not just for her, for lots of people.

• 46:58Kate Lister?

  Including Bothwell.

• 46:59Speaker 02

  Bothwell is one of the factions I like, and he's not liked, but he's like, oh, and he tells Mary, I will kill him for you. Mary's like, I don't want to know anything about it, but he's gonna be there if you need to.

• 47:11Kate Lister?

  Mm-mm.

• 47:12Speaker 02

  He does. In her head, she's like, oh, good, he's removed, now I can rule on my own. And, you know, it, to be fair, at this point, she has a son, she doesn't even need to remarry. Have, has everyone thought, do you really think that you're just like looking for husbands? When you have a son and the son is healthy, you're like, okay, I've done my, my bit, I'm gonna rule on my own now. I'm queen of, of Scotland, I do not need an, uh, another concept. And, and also, would she have taken the risk to go back again with a nutbar like the last one? No, I do not believe that.

• 47:44Kate Lister?

  We're not believing that, we're not believing it.

• 47:46Speaker 02

  I mean, it makes no sense. And again, she's not stupid, people think she is, she really isn't. When I see what she. I mean, let's face it, we're talking, sorry, I get it intense again, but we're talking about someone.

• 47:58Kate Lister?

  Sorry, let's go.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  No, but it's true, we're talking about someone who had a shadow court when she was in prison in England.

• 48:05Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Do you see many people being able to do that?

• 48:08Kate Lister?

  No.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely not. So, no, this woman is not stupid, this woman was thinking, okay, I'll get rid of him, this guy is gonna help me to do that. Then he comes back and he say, well, now you're mine, and I want the throne. And what, what do you do now? You're like, okay, then everyone's gonna hate me? Also, like, do you think Mary is that stupid? Do you think Mary's like, oh, yeah, you're the prime suspect, that's gonna bloody look good on me?

• 48:32Kate Lister?

  Nope.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  No, I do not think, I do not, I'm sorry, I love you, Elizabeth, but that letter, where you think that Mary is so stupid, is one of the first mistakes you make. You think she's stupid, and that's gonna be one of your problems for the next eighteen to nineteen years, you think she's stupid. Mary Stuart is not stupid. Mary Stuart is dangerous. She is, she's very dangerous, sorry, I get very, very.

• 48:53Kate Lister?

  No, you let it rip, this is a safe space.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  No, but it's also, thank you, babe. But it's very, very important to me, because I think we, we, we can play bonkers here. And the fact that we do not believe the word of a woman is also super annoying, she said it.

• 49:07Kate Lister?

  She said it.

• 49:07Speaker 02

  She said it. Do you think she would have said it easily?

• 49:10Kate Lister?

  No.

• 49:10Speaker 02

  No, I do not think so. Also, it's not easy to say it. She's queen, right?

• 49:15Kate Lister?

  No.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  And to, to admit that no one defended her, like, and that's why, you know, historians think that if. Because Bothwell was hated, and she would have, and he knew that she would have gathered, like, support. So then everything goes downhill for them, for both of them.

• 49:32Kate Lister?

  Goes really downhill fast.

• 49:33Speaker 02

  And everything, she has to leave to England. Every, okay, everyone says, again, so stupid to leave to England. In hindsight, it's always easy. Okay, I don't know you, but me, you, if you look at my life, you can say, oh, my god, you made a mistake. And you say I'm making a mistake, because you know what happens next.

• 49:49Kate Lister?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:50Speaker 02

  But I'm sorry, at that time, it was what I knew.

• 49:54Kate Lister?

  She made the best decision with what she had.

• 49:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. So you, you, and for her to, when people are like, but still, she should have gone to France, I've said that for a long time, actually. I've said, like, she should have gone to France, she should have gone to, but the problem is, North Sea, you're at risk of bloody dying, you know. It's not, it's not a nice journey, it's not like, oh, yes, I'll, I'll take my flight from Edinburgh and I'll arrive in Paris. That's not, that's, so that was not an easy, and also, I really believe that she, again, she, she's not good at that. Like, that's what I'm gonna say, she's not stupid, she's extremely intelligent, but she doesn't read situations or people really well. I think, or hopeful?

• 50:36Kate Lister?

  Optimistic?

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, too optimistic.

• 50:38Kate Lister?

  Terminally optimistic.

• 50:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, she, she, she thinks Elizabeth is not gonna want me to keep in, to keep me in England.

• 50:51Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 50:51Speaker 02

  She will want me to go back to Scotland, so she will give me an army.

• 50:54Kate Lister?

  This is just such a mess.

• 50:56Speaker 02

  And Elizabeth is thinking, you've been annoying me for.

• 51:00Kate Lister?

  And you've been calling yourself the queen.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  I know, for ten years, over ten years.

• 51:04Kate Lister?

  I, I don't think Elizabeth had much choice.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  Gonna give you an army to risk the life of English people.

• 51:10Kate Lister?

  No, not happening.

• 51:12Speaker 02

  Not happening. But at the same time, I think Mary didn't see, well, I think Elizabeth didn't know what was coming either. Because the idea of having her in pre, pre, I think we have to, to, to take a moment here. She imprisoned another queen, another regnant.

• 51:31Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 51:31Speaker 02

  Anointed queen, even if she abdicated, uh, abdicated and stuff like that, it doesn't matter. She was the, the daughter of a king.

• 51:42Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 51:43Speaker 02

  And she kept her imprisoned in North of England for nineteen years. I think no one, a, and then when it. And then you have that story, obviously, and that is incredible. Um, and it's where I said, like, one of them had to die. That was the only way out.

• 52:02Kate Lister?

  To bring it back to Darnley, as much as we'd like to move on from him. Sort of, it's like, cause it's such a mess. It's so, there's so much drama and whatever you wanna say about Mary. And she's absolutely not my favourite and I find myself, I, I suppose what I think is it's just, it was such a, a bad call to be running around calling yourself queen and then go. Oh, is it all right if I come and stay with you, please, Elizabeth? That was just never gonna work. It was such a bad move.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was a bad move, but it was the only option.

• 52:28Kate Lister?

  But I mean, she's interesting, we'd have to give her that. But I just wondered, like, to sort of, as a, as a final question is. How impactful do you think this marriage to Darnley was? Like, if she'd married, if she'd married Dudley. Like, would, would everything have been okay? Or was she always on a collision course with Elizabeth and the Scottish laws?

• 52:46Speaker 02

  She had to marry Darnley. We have James. She had to mar, marry Darnley. James has chewed the blood twice.

• 52:53Kate Lister?

  Yes, he does. He does. He's a double tutor.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  And he, he got the throne. There wasn't like, he was the, the rightful heir. Completely, like, he had more claim, despite what Henry the Eighth wanted or didn't want, despite that Henry the Eighth didn't want the Stuarts to, you know. But also I want to tell, um, Henry the Eighth, if you didn't want to Stuart on the throne, maybe you don't marry one of your sister to a Scottish king. That would be kind of a good thing to do or not good thing to do. Do you see what I mean? Like, it just, I don't, I don't get it. Before, Darnley had to happen. And Mary makes that choice, not just because she wants to bang Darnley. I think that's that, that reason, a very personal one. But I think politically, she's like, ooh.

• 53:35Kate Lister?

  Well, see, I've learnt that from you because I was always very irritated at what I viewed as her choice. I was just like, you got dignitised, a pretty man. Who's well-hug, with nice legs turned up, and now you've done something incredible. I think I'm projecting quite a lot of my own anxiety onto Mary of just like, oh, you stupid, stupid woman.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  But I, I think.

• 53:52Kate Lister?

  Maybe it wasn't as much of a choice as, as I think it was.

• 53:55Speaker 02

  Darnley's a choice.

• 53:57Kate Lister?

  Yeah, but like for different reasons, like it's more of an intellectual choice that I'm giving it credit for.

• 54:02Speaker 02

  It's, but no, I think it's really, I think it happened here and here. I'm sorry. It's filmed, so guys, if you can't see it, imagine what I'm doing. It happened in both ways. It's more like, uh, uh, uh, it's literally lust.

• 54:17Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 54:17Speaker 02

  And the political choice, where she thought, that's my best shot.

• 54:21Kate Lister?

  That's the best option.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  I'm making myself Queen of England, my, oh, and, and, and the, you know, like my, my children. Having a strong claim, because that's, that's something that people don't really talk about, is how determined. She was for the English throne. I think people don't, because people, when they're like, oh, she's such, you know, it's because she was a victim. And it's because Elizabeth was so nasty to her when she did, when she did this or that, or because when Elizabeth obviously. Uh, did bad things, yeah, I mean, what I mean by bad things, she supported, you know, people and rebellions in Scotland against Mary, right?

• 55:01Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 55:02Speaker 02

  Um, um, I want to say, are you surprised that she did that when someone kept calling herself Queen of England? Like, Elizabeth, never. And I'm sorry, here, please come at me, please come at me, I'll, I'll receive you. Elizabeth never started anything with Mary Stuart.

• 55:16Kate Lister?

  No.

• 55:17Speaker 02

  It's Mary Stuart and the Guise family that have kept going at her. So when she, I'm sorry, if you keep fighting, like, honestly, I'm a nice person, I never, but if you keep slapping me, you'll get slapped back. Like, that's gonna happen. That's about to happen. And if you want me, you know, if you want a real fight, I'll give you a real fight too. I will not start it, but I will definitely give it to you. Yeah, like, I mean, and I think Elizabeth was like that, and Mary was just so, like, annoying on that part, like, just.

• 55:45Kate Lister?

  Relentless.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  Yes, but also, you know, that's so funny because I said she's so, she's so annoying, but also I understand why, because if you're raised that way.

• 55:53Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 55:54Speaker 02

  Well, you really, like, it's, like me, I have such a big convictions, you know, and if, if. I believe I'm right, you know, she really believe, but she's not the rightful Queen of England. Like, that's me. Because her Mary, like Anne Boleyn, you know, is, is not recognised, she's not Queen of England. When she was crowned, there was another queen already, you know, like, there's not even, there's an overlap of two queens. There's no way Catholics could be. Oh, yes, you're right. We recognise her. Having said that, the French royal family did recognise Elizabeth's. Claim on the English throne and did recognise her right on the throne. So I think it's possible, but if you're ultra Catholic. It's not possible, something you really don't. And also, personally, she was very ambitious.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  She wanted it. She wanted the throne and of. So for Darnley, had to happen. Darnley had to happen. It's not a bad choice. I, I just want us to go back in fifteen sixty-five. You don't know anything that's gonna happen. You see this handsome, tall guy.

• 56:53Kate Lister?

  He's got all the paperwork.

• 56:54Speaker 02

  He's like, he's like, I'm not like your frail first husband. I'll do things to you that are gonna wreck your world. You're like, okay. And then you think at the same time, that sounds pretty good because also it means, like, we are Tudor blood.

• 57:07Kate Lister?

  Yeah.

• 57:08Speaker 02

  You think, okay, it's ticking all the boxes. If he'd had been a nice guy that she could have control, or it was a real loving relationship that came out of it. She, it would have been the best decision.

• 57:19Kate Lister?

  That's true.

• 57:20Speaker 02

  Right? We just didn't know that he was going to be a monster.

• 57:23Kate Lister?

  Didn't know that. Estelle, I've learnt so much from you today. Thank you so much. Thank you. And if people know more about you and your work and to email you their thoughts on Darnley.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, please.

• 57:35Kate Lister?

  Where can they find you?

• 57:36Speaker 02

  Well, mostly these days on Instagram.

• 57:39Kate Lister?

  Yep.

• 57:39Speaker 02

  So if you type my name, you find me. You can find my books, I guess, anywhere you shop, like, I have. Two trade books that you can find on Blood, Fire and Gold, so Elizabeth the First and Catherine the Medici, and Thorn's Lust and Glory and Boleyn.

• 57:53Kate Lister?

  We come back some other time and, and we can, we can myth bust and shout about more Tudors.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  I'd love that. Thank you so much for having me.

• 58:00Kate Lister?

  Thank you.

• 58:03Kate Lister?

  Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Estelle for joining us. And if you like what you heard, don't forget to like, review and follow along wherever it is that you get your podcasts. And if you'd like us to explore a subject or if you just wanted to say hello, then you can email us at betwixt at historyhit.com. This podcast was edited by Natasha Hughes and produced by Sophie G. The senior producer was Freddy Chick. Join me again, Betwixt the Sheet, the history of sex scandal and society, a podcast by History Hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.