In The Test Kitchen With Dan Souza & Lisa McManus

Today we’re bringing you a conversation Dan had on the new podcast In the Test Kitchen, from America’s Test Kitchen. Hosts Dan Souza and Lisa McManus welcomed Dan into their Boston studio to dive deep into the world of pasta design, exploring what makes a perfect noodle and how texture, sauce-holding power, and mouthfeel come together in the ultimate bite. Plus, the ITTK hosts get into gear testing, and they offer Dan a “Ror-snack” test.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you. Start the day strong with Quaker protein products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker protein products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 0:45Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 1:02Speaker 01

  Sirius XM Podcasts.

• 1:10Dan Pashman?

  To go through the work of opening up a pistachio, and some of them don't want to open. Oh, like half of them don't want to open. Half of them don't want to open. So they're really stubborn and annoying. I mean, you open it up, and what do you get for all your effort? One pistachio.

• 1:27Dan Pashman?

  This is The Sporkful. It's not for foodies, it's for eaters. I'm Dan Pashman. Each week on our show, we obsess about food to learn more about people. Today, instead of our usual reheat, we're bringing you something extra special. It's an episode of In the Test Kitchen, which is the new podcast from our friends over at America's Test Kitchen. And I'm the guest in this episode. Now, this show's hosted by my good friend Dan Souza, a longtime friend of mine. He's been on The Sporkful many times, talking about food science. He even hosted my Boston book event for Anything's Possible. He's joined by co-host Lisa McManus, who's the kitchen cooking gear expert at America's Test Kitchen. Now, Dan and Lisa, they invited me to the ATK studio in Boston for a chat about all things pasta, including a new development with Cascatelli. Plus, we get into some of my most closely held food opinions.

• 2:11Dan Pashman?

  Anytime Dan and I are hanging out, there will be strong food opinions, all exchanged in good fun. So let's get into it. Dan and Lisa kick off the episode talking about kitchen gear, which they are truly the authorities on, so you want to pay close attention here. Enjoy.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  I'm Dan Souza and I'm joined by my lovely co-host Lisa McManus and we are in the test kitchen. Hi Lisa.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  Hi Dan, what's going on?

• 2:34Speaker 02

  What's going on? It's so fun to have you here. We have not done a podcast like this together yet. We're in a different space today for the show. Normally, we're in our set kitchen for America's Test Kitchen. This is the set for Cook's Country. And I'm hoping this podcast just roves around all of the test kitchen and you get to see it all. But so if you, it sounds a little bit different today or it looks a bit different. We're still in the same building, just a different home. So Lisa, you are Executive Editor for our reviews team here at ATK. So you are responsible for like, all of the amazing stuff we do with testing products and ingredients. You put everything through like crazy paces to figure out sort of what is the best product on the market. But you have protocols for your testing that sometimes go just like to the extreme. One of my favorites is when you're testing like clad skillets, like stainless steel skillets in the kitchen.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  One of the concerns is if there's like a lot of temperature shock with those, that they can sort of break at the handle, right? They can pop off, or they can warp, all these things that we don't want. So you devise this process that is really incredible, where you will superheat one of these skillets on the stove top, dunk it into ice water, and then you bang it on a hard surface. And I always say this story introducing you, because I think it shows your level of dedication, just like getting to the bottom of an answer.

• 3:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, it probably also shows my level of craziness. I don't know if that's the right word.

• 3:53Speaker 02

  Like purposeful craziness.

• 3:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. That's right. It's purposeful. Um, yeah, we, on the reviews team, we will do whatever it takes to figure out which products really are good for people to use, and what they're going to spend their money on. We don't want them to buy pans that are going to fall apart on them. We all know in that case, that people tend to take a hot pan, take the food out, and then put it under the cold tap, and you see all the exciting steam.

• 4:18Speaker 02

  Guilty, guilty, guilty.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, stop doing that. It's really bad for the pan. That's thermal shock. You're going from hot to cold, or cold to hot, very quickly. Metal will buckle and warp at that point, and then you've got this pan that you've warped.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:31Speaker 03

  We whack it on the concrete after that, just to find out about its structural stability. Is it gonna, skillets are not babied in anybody's kitchen. They really go on, you know, you throw them around, you're, you're tossing things, you're, you're scraping these out of them. You're putting them in the oven. They're gonna live a hard life. It's not gonna be something that they can, you know, be too delicate and too fragile. So we really wanna know, how stable are they? I mean, I have whacked pans where after I've finished hitting it three times against the edge of a concrete step or block, the bottom has fallen off.

• 5:04Speaker 02

  Oh, like.

• 5:04Speaker 03

  The handles, it crumbles. Yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. Well, and so, Lisi, you are also a co-creator and co-star, co-host on Gearheads, which is one of our best YouTube shows. If you haven't checked it out, absolutely, you know, go check the episodes. There's probably eight seasons now, something like that.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 5:20Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I love it. So you and Hannah, who's also on the reviews team, just go super deep on a piece of equipment. You get nerdy, you get fun with it. I'm curious, what, what's the latest episode that people should check out?

• 5:32Speaker 03

  We have just filmed Baking for Two. And really just talking about the gear you need and the sort of mindset you need to prepare to bake smaller batch things, whether you're a smaller household or you just don't want a million pounds, you know, three dozen cookies.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  And without, you know, if you run out of people to give things away to and you just wanna bake in a small batch.

• 5:54Speaker 02

  So we'll definitely check that one out. But while I have you here, I wanna ask, you have like had your hands on so many pieces of kitchen equipment over many, many years. And you know the ins and outs of how they all work. What are your like top three indispensable pieces of kitchen equipment that you think everyone should have? Some people may not have them all.

• 6:11Speaker 03

  You need a real chef's knife. That is the one thing that, I mean, how are you gonna start cooking without cutting something up? Or when you're done cooking, cutting it up? This, this knife can take the place of a lot of different knives. And having one that actually has a little quality to it, that fits your hand, that feels good in your hand, that you feel confident using, that you can keep sharp and use for a lifetime, is really important. And I really feel like when you find a knife that fits you, it's kinda like that Harry Potter choosing a wand moment. You know, it just gets in your hand and it feels like an extension of your hand. Goes where you want it to go, cuts what you wanna cut. And your skills level up fast, your. Your food prep gets easier.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Everything is better if you have a chef knife that's actually good.

• 6:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  Our basic favorite knife is less than forty dollars.

• 7:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:01Speaker 03

  If you totally destroy it, that's not that much money.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 7:04Speaker 03

  We're not telling people to spend five hundred dollars on a knife and then, you know, treat it like a precious relic. This is something you can use every day.

• 7:10Speaker 02

  You're under forty, what's your recommendation for that one?

• 7:13Speaker 03

  It's Victorinox Swiss Army eight inch Fibrox handle chef knife.

• 7:18Speaker 02

  And I'd love that you know the entire name.

• 7:19Speaker 03

  Oh, God, yes.

• 7:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  I could probably recite the model number.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  But, yeah, it's a great knife. It's made for food service for people who have to chop things all day long.

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  It's got a very neutral handle. It's very, very grippy handle. Fibrox is the name of the type of plastic that the handle's made out of. And it, if your hand is wet or greasy, it doesn't slip. It stays in your hand. It's a very neutral grip, so people of different hand sizes can use it.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Works for a lot of people.

• 7:43Speaker 03

  It's a really good knife.

• 7:44Speaker 02

  We stock it here in the test kitchen, too, for, you know, some people like to use their own knives, but we have it in the equipment room. And I've used it a ton. It's a great, it's a great knife.

• 7:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:51Speaker 02

  All right, so what are your, uh, what's your, what's your second and third items that you need?

• 7:56Speaker 03

  Maybe I would say get yourself a good sized cutting board.

• 7:58Speaker 02

  And what's a good size?

• 8:00Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, at least maybe a twelve by fifteen or so.

• 8:06Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 8:07Speaker 03

  You know, midsize is good. You can get a big one. A big one is nice.

• 8:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  Make yourself room. I like a big one, too.

• 8:13Speaker 02

  You do, yeah.

• 8:13Speaker 03

  But I realize that a lot of people don't want that. Again, they're cutting on some little cutting board that's three inches square. And it's like, no.

• 8:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, get yourself the space.

• 8:22Speaker 03

  Right?

• 8:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, you guys are worth it. You, you're worth it. You should get the, the nice knife. You should get the big cutting board. Yeah.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, and when you go to set out to cook, clear some space for yourself. You are the person, this is all working around. So you don't have to cut at the edge of the counter. You can clear some space, set yourself up a garbage bowl or a compost bucket. Take your space. You're gonna find it so much easier to cook and so much more enjoyable. Put on some music. That makes a huge difference.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 8:49Speaker 03

  I find that if I'm standing there chopping, I'm thinking about how long this is taking. If I put music on.

• 8:53Speaker 02

  You just chop into the rhythm. You like, yeah.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, we always have music in the test kitchen and that's kind of how I learned.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  My, my biggest point about cutting boards is like, you have to put something underneath so that it won't slip. I hate when people are cutting a board and it slides all over.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  Or rocking.

• 9:07Speaker 02

  Rocking. It's not, it's not safe and it's also just like frustrating to, to work with. So you can get a, an actual mat that works for that. You can do wet paper towels or wet towels underneath, but that's my big note on that.

• 9:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. Anchor that thing down.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Anchor that thing down. Okay. So we've got our knife. Um, we've got a nice cutting board and what's the third?

• 9:22Speaker 03

  I would love a cast iron skillet. A nice 12 inch, not eight or 10. Get yourself 12. Go big or go home. Go big and go home. Um, you don't want a little tiny pan. You can always cook less in a big pan. You can't cook more in a little pan. And having enough room for things to spread out and, and the, um, steam to evaporate. You get better browning. You've got capacity to do a lot of things and a good cast iron pan will last you forever and ever.

• 9:48Speaker 02

  Well, Lisa, we're going to get super nerdy on food and dig into so many things with our special guest today. So I want to bring him out. Today's guest is a three times James Beard Award winner. He's the inventor of a pasta called cascatelli. And he's the host and creator of Sporkful, which is a fabulous podcast. Please welcome to the test kitchen, Dan Pashman.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  Dan Pashman, welcome to the test kitchen. Thanks so much. Thanks for having me. I, this has been a long time coming. You and I have talked about food in pretty much every format possible. We've done it live. We've done it on your podcast. We've, we actually did it on TV as well, which we can talk about if you remember that. And, um, but I'm so excited to have you here in this. And on my first book. And your first book. When you were my like special culinary advisor. It's true. So we go way back. We're going to dig into all of this stuff. Before we do that, uh, I'm really excited because I like to pour a tea for each of my guests. And I try to match the tea to the person who is here. This is so fun. This is so fun. So, um, and sometimes I nail it and it's like, that's a, that's a home run. That's a bullseye. We know if you've nailed it. Yeah. I mean, we're going to talk through it. Okay. If you're like, this is a complete failure, then it'll be a complete failure. All right.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  Um, okay. So the tea that I chose for today is called Hojicha. So it is a roasted Japanese green tea. So it comes, comes from Kyoto. And it is really, really interesting. It is not like other green teas. That roasting process changes it. It lowers the caffeine. It adds all these myard roast-y toasty flavors, which are wonderful. And it is beloved in Japan, not just as a sipping tea, which we're going to do now, but also used in desserts and so many other applications. Sounds good to me. So I'm going to pour it right now. And the reason that I chose it for you is. You are not a surface guy in any way and you don't go for just the normal, normie kind of stuff. You always go a little bit deeper. I think in your newest cookbook, Anything's

• 11:33Speaker 02

  Possible, your combinations of flavors are totally interesting and wild and like pushing the boundary. And I think Hojicha does that. It sort of surprises and sort of delights along the way.

• 11:43Dan Pashman?

  Well, thank you. That's a good setup.

• 11:45Speaker 02

  All right. So let me pass these out here.

• 11:47Dan Pashman?

  Am I right that there are some kinds of green tea that have like toasted rice in them?

• 11:51Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 11:52Dan Pashman?

  This is not one of those.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  That's not that. So Gemmaicha has like toasted rice, but it's with green tea. So this is, you can even see with here, it's like stems and leaves roasted and it's just a whole new character to it. So let's taste it.

• 12:06Dan Pashman?

  Smell it first.

• 12:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, give it a good smell.

• 12:08Dan Pashman?

  Mmm. That is, yes, there's a lot going on here.

• 12:11Speaker 02

  It's like, it's often, so it's low in caffeine and it's often enjoyed like later in the evening or something like that. It's so warm and comforting. I really love it as like a fall tea.

• 12:21Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. And it's got a little bit like, maybe it's just because I'm looking at the the tea and it on the counter, on the table here and it looks like twigs, but it feels like woody.

• 12:30Speaker 02

  There's definitely woody, yeah.

• 12:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, the little roasty, earthy, the greenness kind of comes through behind the roastiness a little bit. It's not just green tea. And I've had Gemmaicha and I really like it, but this is different. It's a little simpler in some ways, but a little more complex in others. I know that sounds really like pseudo deep, but you know what I'm saying.

• 12:50Speaker 02

  No, I think it's deep, deep. And it's amazing, like steeped for an ice cream base is like incredible. It's really, really works well, like a hanna cot or something like that. So, see, I knew you'd get excited about that.

• 13:00Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, no, I accept that this tea represents me.

• 13:04Speaker 02

  Okay. All right. That's a win.

• 13:06Dan Pashman?

  Especially Lisa's like, uh, simple and complicated at the same time. Cause I do sort of love a highbrow, lowbrow.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is true.

• 13:12Dan Pashman?

  Situation.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  That is true. Okay. So the other part of the tea is like, while we're sipping this, you, you gotta spill some tea. So what, what, what is the hot gossip going on right now for Dan Pashman?

• 13:22Dan Pashman?

  Oh, man, the hot goss. In what, like, in, I'm trying, I need, I need something more specific, what?

• 13:28Speaker 02

  So, so what's happening for you, we're gonna dig a lot deeper into this, but like, you've done this incredible project where you created a whole new pasta shape.

• 13:36Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Like, is there something that, like, isn't announced right now, that's like, coming up, that we're getting maybe a little scoop on?

• 13:42Dan Pashman?

  All right, this is in keeping with our tea.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 13:45Dan Pashman?

  This is very, very preliminary. No idea if this will ever happen.

• 13:49Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:50Dan Pashman?

  But my pasta shape, cascatelli, so far, it's only in America.

• 13:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:55Dan Pashman?

  I put in a lot of effort trying to get it sold in Europe. Didn't really ever go anywhere.

• 13:59Speaker 02

  From like, regulations or like, a cultural pushback?

• 14:03Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, no, not regulations, more just like, Italian companies are kinda like, like, no American could ever have a good idea about pasta.

• 14:11Speaker 02

  Sure, sure.

• 14:12Dan Pashman?

  And there's also just like, you know, the funny thing about pasta that I've learned is that, like, as much as there's like, billions of dollars and euros worth of sales, it's like, nobody really cares about trying to do anything new.

• 14:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:22Dan Pashman?

  Cause they're already doing well with what they've got. There's not much of an incentive. Like, if pasta sales started plummeting around the world, then maybe they'd be like, we need something new.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, but it's a no, no situation is not gonna happen.

• 14:33Dan Pashman?

  I'm now, in the very early stages of trying to get cascatelli in Japan.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 14:39Dan Pashman?

  Ooh.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Being big in Japan is obviously like, the goal for everybody, right?

• 14:42Dan Pashman?

  It is, an old friend of mine, who's Japanese-American, she was like, forget Europe. You should be trying to get this in Japan, like, where maybe there's, you know, there's not as much of, I mean, of course, there is centuries and millennia of tradition, but there's also a part of the culture that is excited about new things.

• 14:58Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah.

• 14:59Dan Pashman?

  That maybe you don't find so much in Europe. And she felt like Japan would be perfect for cascatelli.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  I love that, I love that. So, all right, that's really hot goss, and I would be pumped for you to have that happen.

• 15:09Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 15:09Speaker 02

  Let's back up a little bit, and for those who don't know what cascatelli is, don't really know your story here, can you just like, give us the, the kind of high-level version of it, of like, what took place?

• 15:19Dan Pashman?

  Uh, so, I set out to invent a new shape of pasta, because I wanted to tell a big, epic story on my podcast, and I thought that that would be good, like, things would go wrong, it would be dramatic, uh, and, you know, it would be for a good story on the podcast, even if it failed. And the podcast is the sportful, Right. Long running, incredible. You go super deep on stuff. Thank you. Yes. And so like, you know, around the time of the podcast boom and all these sort of long form podcasts were coming out, I was like, what would my version of that be? Like, how could I tell a long form story with the sort of cliffhangers and multiple episodes? And I was like, what if I invented a food? And I settled on pasta because I have a lot of opinions about pasta shapes. And also because I wanted it to be something that would be shelf stable, relatively inexpensive. So I could ship it to listeners all over the country.

• 16:03Dan Pashman?

  So I didn't want it to only be like in one boutiquey store in Brooklyn. I wanted my listeners everywhere to be able to order it. And I also just felt like there's a lot of mediocre pasta shapes out there. Well, I want to dig into that, but yes. Okay, so we will dig into that. But anyway, spaghetti is not so great. A lot of them don't do so great. They're just very old and people are stuck with them. So I set out to invent a new shape of pasta. I ate every obscure shape I could get my teeth on. I isolated variables. Do I like long or short ruffles or ridges? I really like really focusing on ruffles. Cause I think I decided that they're phenomenal for holding sauce. They create a very special, unique texture and yet very few pasta shapes have them. Yeah. What are the classic ones that have ruffles? Mifalda or Mifaldina was the one that really inspired me.

• 16:46Dan Pashman?

  That's like fettuccine, but with ruffles down the side, down the edges. Lasagna has it. So like, you know, mifalda is like a narrow lasagna. Creste di Gallo, which is like an elbow macaroni with a single spine ruffle around the top. It looks almost like a, I think like a stegosaurus. Yeah. Well, creste di Gallo means like rooster's comb. Reggnetti, which is sort of like mifalda chopped up into small pieces. Okay. Yeah. Or Sania a Petsy, which Rustica de Brutto makes only with the first green of the year. And that's like, it's, um, it's like a slang term for broken lasagna. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's a great. That sounds amazing. Get Sania a Petsy when Rustica releases it. It's phenomenal. Okay. Wow. That's a good tip. Anyway, whatever. We keep getting sidetracked. Yeah. Okay. So you wanted it to have ruffles. I spent three years on it. A lot of things went wrong and I launched Cascatelli,

• 17:31Dan Pashman?

  specially designed to hold a lot of sauce and have these interesting textures and stay on your fork more easily. And it went very well and it was named one of Time Magazine's best inventions of the year. And now it's in stores. That's incredible. Time Magazine is one of the best inventions of the year. And I still get interested, it came out in 2021. Here we are four and a half or so years later. Yeah. Uh, I still get introduced at every party and barbecue as like, this is my friend Dan. He invented a new shape of pasta.

• 17:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean,

• 17:58Dan Pashman?

  It's a good icebreaker.

• 17:59Speaker 02

  It is a great icebreaker. I mean, it's an incredible story and everyone needs to listen to the, it's five parts, I think, right? Five part series.

• 18:04Dan Pashman?

  The original series is five parts. It's called Mission Impossible. So if you search that up in your podcast player, it's still there. There are a few sequels we did with updates, but that's the original series.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. And it's incredible. There's ups and downs. It's like anytime you're trying to like, start something new. So if you like it from a business perspective, but, um, but I love that you were just like, singularly focused on this. And I see it everywhere now, like all over the place, um, with the little Sporkful logo on it. And then you also, uh, you brought back two shapes. One of them I'm obsessed with, uh, that were sort of forgotten to time, right?

• 18:35Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. So when Cascotelli came out, I actually, Cascotelli means waterfalls in Italian, because if you hold it vertical, the ruffles kind of look like flowing water. Um, because everyone always asks that. Uh, yeah. And so when that came out and it was very successful, everyone was like, are you going to invent another shape of pasta? You should invent another shape of pasta. And because I knew how incredibly hard it was the first time, and also just how lucky I got that the shape went, you know, worked as well as it did. I was like, there's just no way that I could do this a second time and have it go as well. It would definitely be a disappointment.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  No sophomore effort, no sophomore album.

• 19:06Dan Pashman?

  No, no, like, you know, hit it out of the park once, like go out on top. But I had the idea to team up with Sfolini, who are the art, artisanal company in upstate New York that makes the original Cascotelli. What if we were to find two super obscure shapes that I came across in my Cascotelli research? And be like one of the very few or only folks selling it in America.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:26Dan Pashman?

  So one of the shapes we did is called Vesuvio, like Mount Vesuvius. It's also sometimes called Nodini or Trotale, like a knots. Um, but Vesuvio is like Vesuvius. I think that's a more fun name.

• 19:39Dan Pashman?

  It also kind of looks like a poop emoji, although, uh, we decided,

• 19:42Speaker 02

  You didn't go with that.

• 19:43Dan Pashman?

  We didn't name it after the Italian for that. Uh, although I did look it up. It's Emoji di Caca.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  It always sounds better in Italian.

• 19:51Dan Pashman?

  Yeah. That may not. That one may not. That one translates too easily. And the other one, it's a shape called, in Italy, they call it cinque buchi, which means five tubes. It's if you imagine the cross section is like, um, picture, it's a square. The cross section is a square, but all four corners of the squares are tiny tubes.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 20:12Dan Pashman?

  So, uh, they call it five holes because it has the four tiny tubes plus the center. But to me, it looks like four when you look at it. Plus, if you saw how cinque buchi is spelled, you'd be like, this is not a good name for a product in America.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:26Dan Pashman?

  It's only made during Carnival and only in Sicily. So even most Italians have never seen this shape. They've never heard of it. You really can't find it in stores. So we took it, I added ridges to the outside for more saucability.

• 20:38Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 20:39Dan Pashman?

  And we renamed it quattrini because it looks like four to me, as I said, not five.

• 20:42Speaker 02

  This is the one that I really, really like. Like cascatelli, I do enjoy, but the quattrini I really love because it's like you're getting noodle shape, which I love. So there's like the, the spots there for sauce to grab, but it's just so structural. And so as you're chewing it, it's just, I don't know. It's a mouthful in a really, really good way. That's my fave.

• 20:59Dan Pashman?

  Thank you. I, I love it too. I've had to stop serving it in my house, though.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  Oh, why's that?

• 21:03Dan Pashman?

  Well, one of the funny issues with quattrini is because every shape, every piece has so much pasta in it. Like, like, uh, like there's a lot of walls in there.

• 21:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, totally, yeah.

• 21:13Dan Pashman?

  So every piece is really like three or four pieces of pasta fused together. So in a one pound box, there are fewer pieces. And you don't, you shouldn't eat as many pieces as you would if it was like elbow macaroni. Cause each piece is so much, is so much. But when I serve it to my kids, everyone feels like they're shortchanged. They're like, but I only got eight pieces of pasta. And, and then they want more. I'm like, the four of us just ate a pound of pasta. That's more than enough for a family.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 21:41Dan Pashman?

  But somehow they always feel like they got shortchanged.

• 21:43Speaker 02

  I, I find it hard to believe that in your house that people are getting shortchanged on pasta at all.

• 21:47Dan Pashman?

  No, they're not, but my kids, like, it's never enough for them.

• 21:49Speaker 02

  Pasta house, yeah.

• 21:50Dan Pashman?

  But quattrini is, it's probably the most saucible shape of the three.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, I, I would agree with that. I, I think it's lovely and I, I go by, um, I just eat as much as I need. I don't, I don't limit it just on, you know what I mean?

• 22:04Dan Pashman?

  Right.

• 22:05Speaker 02

  More.

• 22:05Dan Pashman?

  Uh, intuitive eating. Two boxes.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Intuitive eating.

• 22:08Dan Pashman?

  I'll tell you a funny, quick aside, which you two as food nerds will probably appreciate. So when I was trying to find other shapes to do, I started looking through a pasta die catalog. The die is like the mold for the pasta shape. And so these industrial die makers, they have these catalogs and it's like pages and pages of like Ziti and Penne, there's 42 different kinds of Ziti or something like that. How thick do you want the walls? How much should the diameter be? Do you want ridges or smooth? And it's like 0.2 millimeters or 0.22 millimeters or 0.24 millimeters.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Beautiful blueprints for.

• 22:39Dan Pashman?

  Right, and you can custom, you know, and the rigatoni, all the same options. But the chinkue buki, which I call quattro tini, there was only one. It was like buried on page like 104 of the of the book was this one sitting there in the corner. I'm like, what's this? And even the people who made the die didn't know what it was called. We had to like do this.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  Wow, wow, wow, that's so fun. It's like archaeology.

• 23:02Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 23:03Speaker 02

  So I love talking to you about food. What's really interesting to me, I mean, we can talk forever about it, is that I think we disagree on a lot of things.

• 23:10Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  But both have really good backup for it.

• 23:12Dan Pashman?

  And so. Stayed friends nonetheless.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  And we stayed friends nonetheless, Dan and Dan. And so one of them is actually like pasta shapes. Obviously, you know, we're very connected on that topic. And you said something, and I know this was a long time ago, I would just never let it go. And I think you also will also stand by it is that you think spaghetti is a bad pasta shape. Have you heard that Lisa, that he says that?

• 23:32Speaker 03

  And I think those are fighting words, so. I'm Italian on both sides.

• 23:37Speaker 02

  Probably two on one. So you and I did an event in Boston a while ago. And what I was trying to convince you of, because you you talk about how you have different measures for you. You have saucability, forkability, and I think.

• 23:49Dan Pashman?

  Tooth sinkability. Those are my three metrics for judging pasta shapes.

• 23:52Speaker 02

  And I actually think in terms of tooth sinkability, you know, your cascatelli has it because it's right, right angles and all this great stuff and ruffles on there. But but spaghetti, I think, I don't know if this is true, but I think you're thinking of spaghetti as like an individual noodle. But what the way you actually eat it is twirling five strands onto a fork and then biting into it. And I think it probably has far more tooth sinkability than than even cascatelli does when you're eating it that way.

• 24:17Dan Pashman?

  So if you take like 10 strands and have them.

• 24:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's how you experience spaghetti.

• 24:21Dan Pashman?

  Right, I I've eaten spaghetti. I understand how it's done.

• 24:24Speaker 02

  Oh, so you've had it.

• 24:25Speaker 03

  Let's make sure.

• 24:26Dan Pashman?

  Yes, yes, I'm familiar with it.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  I should have started with that.

• 24:29Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, you know, when I set out to find all the obscure shapes, that's where I started.

• 24:35Dan Pashman?

  I hear what you're saying, but I would, even if it's among long shapes that you twirl around the fork, don't you feel like fettuccine, for instance, is more tooth sinkable? That you can, like, you can sink your teeth into it more than spaghetti?

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Uh, I don't know. I don't know about that. I would say they both twirl really nicely. I think the, um, I, I like spaghetti more than linguine. You said fettuccine or linguine?

• 24:58Dan Pashman?

  I said fettuccine. Linguine I don't love either.

• 25:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I don't know why. Linguine just isn't that good in some weird way? We can talk about that.

• 25:04Dan Pashman?

  It's only good for like linguine, like clam sauce, something very oily. Because the cross section of linguine is an oval shape, as you probably know.

• 25:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 25:12Dan Pashman?

  It's not flat. Everyone thinks it's flat like fettuccine, but just narrower. But it's an oval shape, so it's the perfect shape for pursing your lips and sucking, sucking an oily coated pasta in. But other than that, like pointless.

• 25:23Speaker 02

  That is a really good point. Yeah, it is probably the best for that.

• 25:25Dan Pashman?

  It's the, it's the one shape you can create like a perfect seal.

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Have you tested that?

• 25:30Dan Pashman?

  I have.

• 25:31Speaker 02

  Or it's just anecdotally, you've, you've.

• 25:32Dan Pashman?

  No, I've tested it.

• 25:33Speaker 02

  You've sat there.

• 25:34Dan Pashman?

  It's very perilous to eat a, like, if you eat linguine spaghetti style, twirled around the fork, that's the eat, that's the sort of safer way to eat it. If you put one strand in your mouth and slurp it in like a noodle, especially with such an oily sauce, it's gonna fishtail everywhere. It's gonna end up.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  It's gonna destroy everything.

• 25:49Dan Pashman?

  So you gotta really, you gotta like go in with a hazmat suit.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a lobster bib and just like do it like.

• 25:54Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 25:54Speaker 03

  You gotta eat that one alone, not in front of people you wanna impress.

• 25:58Dan Pashman?

  No way to do it gracefully.

• 26:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a fair point. That's a point.

• 26:01Dan Pashman?

  So I guess my point is that like spaghetti, I love all pasta. If you make, I'm sure that you could cook me a phenomenal spaghetti dish and I would love it and I would eat every bite of it. I just think that as compared to other shapes, I don't think there's anything that spaghetti is the best at.

• 26:18Dan Pashman?

  Considering that it's the number one shape and it's, it's, it's the first shape that was industrialized and mass produced, it's the number one selling shape today, why? Like, it's, it's the oldest, but really because, that's an indication of how primitive it is. It's a, it's a very primitive, simple shape.

• 26:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:35Dan Pashman?

  And sure, I love the classics, but I just think like. I think fettuccine is more tooth sinkable and stays on the fork better because it's flat, it doesn't roll off.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I agree with getting it on the fork.

• 26:45Speaker 03

  My beef with spaghetti.

• 26:47Dan Pashman?

  Oh, what? I thought you were going to be on my side here. Lisa's coming around.

• 26:50Speaker 03

  My beef with what you don't like about spaghetti is the sauce ability. And I think that comes down to draining the pasta. I see a lot of pasta water being thrown around and people taking it right out of the pot and putting it in the sauce. I think of spaghetti like, think of the salad spinner. You know, you want your lettuce dry so the dressing adheres. It doesn't wash off and sit in the bottom of the bowl and you've got this sort of watery experience as you eat the lettuce. Pasta is the same way. I say drain it, really shake it out well, let the steam evaporate, then sauce it. That sauce is going to cling. Also, maybe your sauce is too thin. So like that combination, too much water, too thin sauce, you're going to get a beautiful

• 27:32Speaker 03

  sauceable, sauceable spaghetti if you drain it.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Well, I have two thoughts on that. One is that adding pasta water, you know, you're getting it, you want the starch, not necessarily the water part of it. And usually you add it and you're continuing to cook to drive off that water and then like sort of marry them together. So I would agree if you're just going to slop it in and sort of do, I'm not saying you slop it in.

• 27:52Dan Pashman?

  Lisa, by the way, you're talking about when you drain the pasta, that a lot of people don't drain it enough, so the pasta is still wet.

• 27:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 27:59Dan Pashman?

  And then they put it back in the sauce and yes, you're kind of cooking it off, but if you don't cook it off enough, that it, it sort of, it makes the pasta slick.

• 28:05Speaker 02

  Yes. But I, but I think, and depending on the sauce you're putting it into, maybe you want to drain it a little bit more. But here's the thing about that sort of sauce pickup for me. I think it follows the capillary effect. When you have all of that spaghetti, it's the sauce that gets sort of trapped between them as you're twirling your spoon, so, or your, sorry, your fork. So I think you can actually get quite a bit of sauce. Obviously not a big chunky sauce, but you know, even with a casket held, you have to stab the other things along, along the way there too.

• 28:31Dan Pashman?

  But they're going to hold all the sauce for you. I mean, like, look, I could make up fancy terms like capillary effect too, Dan. But I just feel.

• 28:38Speaker 02

  We're going to put a definition on the screen so that everyone sees that we got it from Wikipedia.

• 28:44Dan Pashman?

  I just feel like, look, the things you're both saying are not wrong. I just feel like the things you're saying are true about every other pasta shape and more true. So like, yes, the spaghetti holds some sauce. Yes, it holds some sauce between the, like, it's not, it's not sauceless.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:01Dan Pashman?

  But like, it's not great at holding sauce. There's a lot of other shapes that are better at holding sauce. It's also, it's hard to get a great bite on your fork.

• 29:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:09Dan Pashman?

  Even with twirling, even with the spoon assist, it's still not ideal. Like, you know, you tilt the fork the wrong way, it's gonna slide right off. It's hard to avoid having danglers, which then are very perilous as you eat. And so, again, I love all pasta. I'm just saying, as compared to other shapes.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:25Dan Pashman?

  I, I don't think you can tell me one thing that spaghetti does better than any other shape, besides maybe scratch a nostalgia itch.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Which is huge. I mean, I think that's huge. Yeah. All right. So we're gonna continue to disagree.

• 29:37Dan Pashman?

  Agree to disagree.

• 29:37Speaker 02

  Agree to disagree on this one.

• 29:38Speaker 03

  I say lady and the tramp moment with cascatelli wouldn't work.

• 29:42Speaker 02

  That's true.

• 29:42Dan Pashman?

  It wouldn't. But I also feel like that scene did great damage to, you know, to pasta history by, by romanticizing a mediocre shape.

• 29:50Speaker 03

  Ooh, okay.

• 29:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah. Have two dogs ever eaten cascatelli? That's the good question right there. Yeah.

• 29:56Dan Pashman?

  Not at the same, not, not the same piece at the same time. You're right. You're right.

• 29:58Speaker 02

  I'm sure they've eaten, wow, that's interesting. How many dogs have stolen bowls of cascatelli?

• 30:04Dan Pashman?

  Coming up after the break, we talk pasta sauces and I do their roar snack test. Get it? Stick around.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  Hope you're hungry, cuz it's time for some ads.

• 30:21Dan Pashman?

  When you're cooking, ingredients matter, right? You use higher quality ingredients, you usually get better results. And if you're listening to this show, you're probably the kind of person who puts some thought and effort into your ingredients. But ingredients don't just matter with food, they also matter with laundry detergent. Of course, the cleaning job needs to get done. The odors and stains have to be tackled, and I wanna feel good about the detergent and the ingredients in it. Because remember, whatever's in your laundry detergent is essentially in your clothes, and then you're putting those clothes on, you want good stuff in there. And all Free Clear uses only essential ingredients. It's 100% free from dyes, perfumes, parabens, and Irritating residues. Check out the label and see for yourself. It lists all the ingredients and what they do. We've been using it in my house. We're very happy with it. And let me tell you, family of four, two teenagers.

• 31:04Dan Pashman?

  We do a lot of laundry, so we have put All Free Clear to the test. It's a powerful clean that you can feel good about. All Free Clear is the number one detergent brand recommended by dermatologists for sensitive skin. When it comes to laundry detergent, the choice is clear. All Free Clear. Pick up a bottle for your next laundry day.

• 31:23Dan Pashman?

  There's nothing quite like Aruba. The white sand beaches are truly unlike anything you've seen. But what really stands out is the food. Because Aruba's not like other Caribbean islands. French pastries, Spanish paella, Peruvian barbecue, papardelle that has no business being that good that far from Florence. Not to mention the local fair. Aruba's food scene pulls you in with its astonishing variety of cuisines and beyond satisfies you with its unexpected flavors. So plan your escape to culinary delight at aruba.com. Your taste buds will thank you.

• 31:56Dan Pashman?

  As we turn to fall and the weather starts to cool down, I think of things like crunching leaves. I think of sharing from the sidelines of a soccer game, walking the dog in the woods. And when I think of doing all those things, I'm usually wearing something from L.L. Bean. Whether it's my puffer vest, my puffer coat, my scarf, whatever you're doing outside this year, you probably need something from L.L. Bean, whether it's their boots, their Scotch plaid flannel, their rugged field coat, or more. Grab the layers and people you love and get outside. Visit llbean.com to shop the fall collection. L.L. Bean, be an outsider. Start the day strong with Quaker Protein Products. Quaker makes it easy and delicious to get a good source of protein. No matter what the day has in store, Quaker Protein Products give you a variety of ways to reach your protein goals.

• 32:41Dan Pashman?

  Oatmeal, granola, bars, and rice snacks in flavors you already love, like maple and brown sugar and blueberries and cream. Quaker Protein helps fuel you to start whatever's next. Get your protein with Quaker, available at a store near you.

• 32:59Dan Pashman?

  Welcome back to The Sporkful. I'm Dan Pashman. A lot of times, people want to ask me, like, oh, what are you cooking? What restaurants are you going to? They ask Emma and Andres and the whole Sporkful team the same questions. Well, it turns out, we provide a listener service to you that includes that information. It's our newsletter. We don't send it out all the time. We're not going to spam you. We're just going to send you useful information. Recipes, restaurant information, links to articles that we're reading, shows that we're watching, and guess what else? You'll be automatically entered into giveaways for cookbooks featured on the show as long as you live in the US or Canada. That's also where I'll email you to tell you about, like, special sales happening on this Spolini website by discounts on pasta and stuff. So, there are a lot of benefits, and you can sign up right now while you're listening. Head on over to sporkful.com/newsletter to sign up today.

• 33:41Dan Pashman?

  Again, that's sporkful.com/newsletter. Thanks. Okay, back now to my conversation with Dan Souza and Lisa McManus on their podcast, In the Test Kitchen.

• 33:52Speaker 02

  So pasta is amazing, but the sauce that goes on it is also super important. And in your latest book, Anything's Pasta-able, which I'm not a huge pun guy, but I actually really liked the title of that book. It's great. You are super, super playful with sauces on your pasta. And I'm curious, what are a couple from that book that really like stand out to you? And why did you, why'd you go that way?

• 34:14Dan Pashman?

  I mean, the basic idea of the book is, you know, so Cascotelli came out. Everyone was sending me pictures of what they were making with it, which was very exciting. But it, like 75% of what I got was like tomato sauce, meat sauce, and mac and cheese. And then like 20% was maybe pesto. And that left 5% of things that I was like, oh, that's clever. And it just really struck me how limited most people's sauce selections are. And I also felt like, as much as, you know, I love all the Italian classics, like what else could be out there? So I really set out to do a cookbook that was like non-traditional. There's no recipe for tomato sauce in this book. There's no recipe for classic lasagna, or meat sauce, or cacio e pepe. But there's cacio e pepe with chili crisp. There's like, instead of sort of a traditional Italian, like artichokes and lemon

• 34:59Dan Pashman?

  that they would do with lemon juice, we do with preserved lemon.

• 35:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:03Dan Pashman?

  Those kinds of things. We do have a shakshuka in shells. What are some of my other favorites? Well, you do, there's a kimchi carbonara that's phenomenal. So we're just sort of like bringing together ingredients from different cuisines all over. There's a mac and dale that I know you like, Dan.

• 35:18Speaker 02

  Yes, another one.

• 35:19Dan Pashman?

  So I just felt like, let's broaden pasta. I think that, you know, for a food that is so beloved and that we eat so much of, it's a shame that the things we're putting on top of it are so narrow.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's funny for me, like, I can be a purist about things. Like, I find something that I really love, like, this is how a lobster roll should be, or whatever. I actually found it really freeing. When I got your book, I was like, I don't know. But then I started doing it, and I think I've been more playful with pasta sort of since then.

• 35:44Dan Pashman?

  Oh, good, I'm glad.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  You were excited about a specific one in the book. Which one was that?

• 35:49Speaker 03

  I really loved the idea of the chili crisp ones because, one because that is something that I'm trying to get more use out of, and to put it on pasta hadn't occurred to me. It was like, oh, okay.

• 36:00Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, and it, but it, it's one of those things, like, I feel like this happens so often in food. People hear about a combination, and your initial reaction is like, huh? But then when you kind of like unpack the combination, you're like, well, that actually makes like, so it makes like, people put chili crisp on vanilla soft serve.

• 36:16Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 36:16Dan Pashman?

  So the idea of chili crisp with dairy is already out there. So to put chili crisp into cacio e pepe isn't so crazy at all to me, you know, like, like once you sort of break, break it down that way. So, and I think that there's so many other combinations like that.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  I think you had, you mentioned there was one that was your favorite in the book. What was that?

• 36:35Dan Pashman?

  I don't know that I can pick just one favorite. I do have a list.

• 36:37Speaker 02

  What about one of your kids? Can you pick one of your kids?

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:42Dan Pashman?

  Since the book came out, the ones that I probably have cooked the most, the spaghetti alla assassina, assassin spaghetti, which is one of the few Italian dishes that's in there, but it's pretty obscure. I went to Bari and Puglia to learn about how it's made, because that's where it's from. The one dish that I really kind of invented in there is pasta pizza, which is, you take fettuccine, or you can do any long shape. I think it works best with fettuccine. You cook it, you mix it with. Raw beaten eggs and you put it on a sheet pan and you bake it. And then you top it like a pizza and then bake it again. And it gets like crispy golden brown on the bottom and the pasta all fuses together. You can eat it like pizza.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  It's almost like, like the crispy edges of a lasagna turned into a whole thing.

• 37:21Dan Pashman?

  Kind of, yeah, yeah. So, uh, so the, my kids love that one. Uh, I just recently made them the pasta frittata, which is another sort of lesser known Italian thing. Uh, it's got a lot of nutmeg in it and that's like a great, that's a great sort of brunch one. You know, you can make it in advance in server room temperature.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:38Dan Pashman?

  So, uh, I made that recently and it was such a hit that I had to make it again like two weeks later.

• 37:42Speaker 02

  That's awesome. I actually, uh, developed a recipe here at America's Test Kitchen for, um, uh, the pasta frittata. And it was amazing. Like it's, it's like such a good use of leftover pasta. Get like crispy bottom and rich egginess. And I love that you can just like cut a wedge and enjoy it.

• 37:56Dan Pashman?

  For sure. It's actually a common beach snack in Italy.

• 37:58Speaker 02

  Oh, is that right?

• 37:59Dan Pashman?

  Cause it's, it's again, like something they'll make the next morning with the leftovers from the previous night's dinner. And slice up a few wedges, wrap them in wax paper or whatever, and eat it on the beach for lunch.

• 38:07Speaker 02

  I love that. That sounds great.

• 38:09Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Um, one of our top recipes for the last, like, I don't know, probably six months is our spaghetti al assassina.

• 38:14Dan Pashman?

  Really?

• 38:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think there's like, it's having a moment. And, um, we talk about it as like the pasta that breaks basically every rule of pasta, pasta making. Uh, but you were there in Bari and checking it out. Can you talk a little bit about that pasta?

• 38:26Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, so, so I, I first, I heard about it as I was sort of doing research for the cookbook. I was looking for things that were different, uh, that most Americans didn't know about. So I heard about this. I'm a huge texture eater. I love crisp and crunch. Spaghetti al assassina basically is just, uh, you take spaghetti, you put it into a spicy tomato sauce. You cook it down and cook it down till the sauce basically turns to the consistency of tomato paste. And then you keep pan frying it until the pasta turns crispy, crunchy, golden brown in some parts, and even charred black in other parts until it is, as the Italians would say, croccante, crunchy.

• 38:58Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 38:59Dan Pashman?

  Um, so I went, I went to the place in Bari where it was invented. I, I went in the kitchen and met the chefs and heard the whole story. And then I went around to other places in Bari where it's, uh, served until I found my one that I thought was the, my favorite. And then I came back to the US and tried to replicate that one.

• 39:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's such an amazing pasta and it's like, yeah, there's like three or four textures in every single bite. And I love things, there's a sort of weird sweet spot of like, it's, uh, feels like it breaks all the rules, but it's traditional for like a certain group of people.

• 39:26Dan Pashman?

  Right. Although it was only just invented in like nineteen, in late sixties.

• 39:29Speaker 02

  It's pretty new, yeah.

• 39:30Dan Pashman?

  It's also to me, one of the things I also like about it is, you know, we have this perception of Italian food as being just absolutely etched in stone.

• 39:36Speaker 02

  Right.

• 39:37Dan Pashman?

  And, you know, everybody's, you ask any Italian or Italian American, they'll tell you like their grandmother's grandmother's grandmother made it this way. And it's just not true. Like, maybe Italian food doesn't change as quickly as some other cuisines, but like, a carbonara was only invented in like the nineteen forties.

• 39:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:52Dan Pashman?

  So, Italian food does change, it does evolve, and spaghetti alla sasina is a perfect example of that. It's only recently become widespread around Bari in the last ten or twenty years. And now there's new versions. There's one with stracciatella on top, they do one with broccoli rabe during broccoli rabe season.

• 40:07Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, I've seen that.

• 40:08Dan Pashman?

  So, I put a recipe for that one in my cookbook too. So, and there's more and more places opening up. Now there's like, like places that just do sasina in Bari. I'm going back. So I've been doing these pasta tours since my book came out, every fall with culinary backstreets. So I'm going back this fall twenty twenty-five. We're just about to announce the tour for twenty twenty-six. And we go-

• 40:28Speaker 02

  This is you in, on location.

• 40:30Dan Pashman?

  On location, going around Italy, eating pasta. And we go to Bari and we eat spaghetti alla sasina in multiple places. And-

• 40:36Speaker 02

  It's funny, I have, I, the invite must have like gone to my spam folder or something.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  I didn't get it either.

• 40:42Speaker 02

  I haven't gone in yet. That's cool.

• 40:43Dan Pashman?

  You should come. We should, we should just go to Italy and just eat.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  I agree. Okay, so I think we've, we've talked about pasta a lot.

• 40:48Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 40:49Speaker 02

  Um, but you have opinions on foods outside of pasta, it turns out.

• 40:52Dan Pashman?

  It's true.

• 40:52Speaker 02

  And I think you, uh, you sort of, in my mind, like when you came on my radar in the early days, we're doing a lot around like how people actually eat foods, which I find really fascinating. Um, could you give us a couple of your hot takes on, on, on how people are maybe eating things the wrong way?

• 41:07Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I mean, this was sort of like my whole focus for the first few years of my podcast, you know, in the early twenty-tens. Um, yeah, I, I mean, like, you, you know them well, but like, uh- Cheese on the bottom on a cheeseburger. Cheeseburger with cheese on the bottom. You put the cheese on the bottom. It brings the cheese closer to your tongue. It accentuates cheesy goodness. It also creates a seal to prevent the juices from turning the bottom bun soggy.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  So in that case, does that mean that you prefer the taste of cheese over, over beef?

• 41:34Dan Pashman?

  Not over it, but if you're, if you're talking about a thick burger and you have the cheese on the top, I think you're, you're barely going to register the cheese. It's mostly like a, like a barely textural thing as you're chewing.

• 41:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 41:44Dan Pashman?

  You put it on the bottom, you just kind of notice it a little bit more.

• 41:46Speaker 02

  You get it. What do you think of that one Lisa?

• 41:47Speaker 03

  I love that.

• 41:48Speaker 02

  Yeah?

• 41:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Where's your cheese normally on your burger?

• 41:50Speaker 03

  I don't put it on because I can't taste it. So why have like another?

• 41:54Speaker 02

  So you, oh, you just do hamburgers?

• 41:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I just say, keep the cheese, you know, give me the burger.

• 41:58Dan Pashman?

  Maybe now you're gonna start this.

• 42:00Speaker 03

  I'm gonna try that.

• 42:00Dan Pashman?

  All right, good, good.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Maybe I'll like it now.

• 42:02Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 42:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay. All right, what's another one?

• 42:04Dan Pashman?

  I mean, I put a lot of thought into tortilla chip dipping and the best shapes for dipping and the best techniques and how to get as much dip as possible on your chip.

• 42:14Speaker 03

  Okay, round versus triangular chip versus rectangular.

• 42:18Dan Pashman?

  I mean, round overall probably has more structural integrity. I've actually interviewed a rocket scientist and an engineer on the subject of tortilla chip dipping. I've gone deep on this one. So what the rocket scientist taught me is that if you have a triangular ship, if you have a triangular chip, that you should like snow plow across the top of the dip. Instead of, don't go straight down. Cause then when you bend it back, you're getting like this sort of forklift thing. And that's when you're putting so much strain on the chip, that's when you get breakage.

• 42:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:50Dan Pashman?

  The other thing to think about with a triangular chip is are you holding one point and dipping two points? Or are you holding it by a straight edge and dipping one point? That's also going to determine the stability of the chip.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  And this is like guacamole. Like this is, this is like a serious dip.

• 43:04Dan Pashman?

  But as I wrote, so the engineer was, when I was interviewing an engineer about this, he was saying something about how like, well, the arch is like the most powerful shape in, in engineering. Like the Roman aqueducts have, are held up by arches. They still stand today. And I realized then that the scoop chip, cause he was like, and a three dimensional arch is a dome.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 43:22Dan Pashman?

  I realized that the scoop chip, if you turn it upside down, is a dome.

• 43:27Speaker 02

  It's a dome, yeah.

• 43:27Dan Pashman?

  And that thing, if you hold that on your fingertip like a thimble. I believe Dan, you tested this.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  How are you dipping a dough?

• 43:34Dan Pashman?

  When I first came out with this, you tested it with cream cheese.

• 43:37Speaker 02

  Yes, we did test it, yes.

• 43:39Dan Pashman?

  And what did you find?

• 43:39Speaker 02

  So, um, so we tested this back in the day here in America's Test Kitchen, and we tried it with a bunch of different dips. It has to be a thick one, but yeah, using it like basically in reverse of what you would normally do, and you plow through it, there's like almost no way to break that chip. So we did a story on it, we posted it all over the place, and people were just like furious about it. They did not, like even though it was true, they were like, this is ridiculous, your eyes are overthinking it, but you're 100% right, and it's really, really sturdy. And it looks, it looks completely silly.

• 44:09Dan Pashman?

  Why would anyone complain that America's Test Kitchen is overthinking something?

• 44:14Speaker 03

  I know, that's like what we do.

• 44:16Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, that's what makes you great.

• 44:17Speaker 02

  I know, that is exactly what we do.

• 44:19Speaker 03

  Like overthinking this, never.

• 44:20Dan Pashman?

  Why are you following these people on Instagram if you don't like overthinking?

• 44:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, it's totally true. But no, I remember the, the image that we shot for it, and it was like, uh, you know, the overturned scoop with like, I don't know, an inch and a half of guacamole sitting on top of it.

• 44:34Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 44:34Speaker 02

  Like you can go over the top with it.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  So if you want all the guac, turn it over, basically.

• 44:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 44:40Speaker 03

  Turn the chip over.

• 44:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's what you do there.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  All right, so Dan, I'd like to do a third segment on the show that I would call the, uh, the Roar Snack Test. So instead of ink blots, uh, don't.

• 44:51Dan Pashman?

  So you didn't like puns?

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Don't steal that. I don't unless I come up with them, um, and I like them. So, uh, instead of showing you ink blots and then analyzing you, I'm gonna ask you some sort of quirky food questions, which these are like perfectly up your alley, and then, um, we'll understand you a little bit more.

• 45:06Dan Pashman?

  All right, I'm ready.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  All right, so the first one is, um, I'm also obsessed with the way that people physically eat foods, and corn on the cob is one of my favorite foods. So I'm curious, how do you physically eat the corn on the cob?

• 45:17Dan Pashman?

  I take a knife and I cut the kernels off the cob.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Wow, so you don't eat it off on the cob at all?

• 45:21Dan Pashman?

  I don't. It gets stuck in my teeth, it's a giant mess, and I feel like you leave half the food on the cob.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  If you're not good at it, yeah, yeah.

• 45:28Dan Pashman?

  Take a good, plus I also love when you slice it straight down from top to bottom, you get these like chunks, you'll get, and you can pick that up with your hand, and it's almost like, like eating a potato chip or something. It's like, you get this whole, and you pop that in your mouth, and you get this very satisfying, very juicy bite of like 20 or 30 kernels in your mouth all at once, and it's like a flat slab, so it kinda... You can really bite your teeth down on it and it kind of spreads. You get like, it's just like maximum corn crunch and flavor.

• 45:59Speaker 02

  I could have predicted that answer, actually, because the.

• 46:01Speaker 03

  There's a fourth option, right?

• 46:03Speaker 02

  There's a lot of different options, but so the, the last time that we were talking on stage, I was, we were talking about, um, I think pistachios or seafood or something like that. And you were like, the idea of like opening pistachios was like ridiculous to you. You're like, I want the bag where they're already stripped out.

• 46:18Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I'm like tired and annoyed just thinking about opening pistachios.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I think I was like teasing you about like, I was like, why does food have to be easy? And your mom was actually at the show in the front row and I like looked at her, I was like, what happened to him when he was a kid? I don't understand what happened here, but yes, like you want the, the maximum benefit of it. So I totally get that. I just happen to like, love the process of like eating corn on the cob, you know, opening pistachios, cracking crabs and doing all the work there in the same process.

• 46:42Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I guess you and I are just different in that respect. I mean, you know, there, there's.

• 46:47Dan Pashman?

  You know, certain foods that involve some amount of construction. Where you're, you know, like, like a bosom, the Korean dish, you have the pork belly, you know, different components, the pickled radish, whatever it is.

• 47:01Dan Pashman?

  That I love.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  You like that, okay.

• 47:02Dan Pashman?

  Where you're, because then you can kind of like alter your ratios from one bite to another and you, the construction of it is fun. But I, I don't, I still, when you take a bite out of it, it's still like a very large, satisfying bite with all these textures and flavors that are all coming together. Whereas like to go through the work of opening up a pistachio and some of them don't want to open.

• 47:24Speaker 02

  Oh, like half of them don't want to.

• 47:25Dan Pashman?

  Don't want to open. So they're really stubborn and annoying. I mean, you open it up and, and what do you get for all your effort? One pistachio.

• 47:35Speaker 02

  And you appreciate that pistachio. You know, after, after that initial conversation, I remembered I wanted to send you, they make, uh, tins of, uh, pistachios where none of them will open. It's like, it's like a gag. And I forgot to send it to you.

• 47:49Dan Pashman?

  Are they real pistachios?

• 47:50Speaker 02

  They're real pistachios.

• 47:50Dan Pashman?

  Are they like hand selected to not open?

• 47:52Speaker 02

  They probably are like, these are the defects because we didn't open them properly, but you can just like send that as a gift.

• 47:57Dan Pashman?

  That's so funny. It's, it's like basically like you send it to someone to make them go insane.

• 48:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, not that I wanted you.

• 48:02Speaker 03

  I love it.

• 48:05Speaker 02

  Great, okay, so I want to ask, um, about another piece of produce, uh, bananas. And I want to know what your preferred banana ripeness is and then how dedicated you are to that specific ripeness.

• 48:14Dan Pashman?

  So on a spectrum from like.

• 48:16Speaker 02

  Let's say like totally green to black with like.

• 48:18Dan Pashman?

  Oh.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  With like clean yellow in the middle. You know.

• 48:22Dan Pashman?

  So, right, okay, so I don't want any green on it.

• 48:25Speaker 02

  No green on it, okay.

• 48:27Dan Pashman?

  I'd say so, so if, uh, if totally green is zero and black is 10.

• 48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:33Dan Pashman?

  And clean yellow is five.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 48:35Dan Pashman?

  My ideal banana would be a 7.3.

• 48:39Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  Ooh, okay.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  I think we might be aligned on this.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  Oh, no.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  That's like, that's like a light, like a lightly speckled sort of guy, right?

• 48:46Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, a little bit of speck. You ought to be a little soft and a little sweet.

• 48:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:49Dan Pashman?

  Um, but my ideal banana would not be mushy.

• 48:52Speaker 02

  Agreed, agreed. Yeah, that's my sweet spot there. A- as they ripen, you get like more and more fructose, you get that nice sweetness, you lose the sourness and some of that chalky texture. I can't do like below five. I like, I'm not gonna happen.

• 49:04Speaker 03

  I'm sitting here thinking three, three and a half is good for me.

• 49:07Dan Pashman?

  Do you still want some green?

• 49:09Speaker 03

  I don't, I want it at the very moment when it stops being green, but before it's fully, fully, fully ripe. I like it like more, like lightly sweet without that kind of maybe a little bit too much gloppy sweetness that it gets when it's really brown.

• 49:23Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  So like, I'm always trying to catch it right before it is fully like starting to get into that speckled zone. So.

• 49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think what you need is like a household that just has the, the, runs the gamut. So that they're like, people are picking them at the right times.

• 49:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:36Speaker 02

  That's like the solution to it.

• 49:37Dan Pashman?

  Well, there are some stores that like sort avocados that way, right?

• 49:40Speaker 02

  Yes, yes, right.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  Wish. You have to go squeeze them all.

• 49:44Speaker 02

  No, you should never squeeze your avocados.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Why?

• 49:46Speaker 02

  Wait, that's my big, that's my big, um, that's my platform, my entire platform.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 49:51Dan Pashman?

  You gotta give a light, a light pinch, a little press.

• 49:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, you just kind of feel them and like, how do you pick them then?

• 49:57Speaker 02

  Because here's the thing. So if you're, if you're not planning ahead, we have a huge problem here. But every time you open avocado and it looks like it's gonna be great, and then you have these like little brown spots. That is because other avocado lovers have come by and given them that gentle squeeze or that little poke. And then put it back because it wasn't quite what they wanted. And then you buy it and then you get screwed. The way to buy avocados is one step before they are ripe. That you could squeeze them and they're hard and it's not gonna matter. So they're like not quite purple black at that point. And if we all did that, there would be no issues with avocados.

• 50:27Dan Pashman?

  Interesting.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  I think I've ruined a lot of people's lives.

• 50:32Speaker 02

  I'm sorry for you to realize that right now, Lisa. You might need some time to process.

• 50:35Speaker 03

  I will have to think about this. I feel bad.

• 50:37Dan Pashman?

  Yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's a good platform, Dan.

• 50:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:40Dan Pashman?

  But I just think that requires a lot of avocado education.

• 50:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I did a YouTube video on it and, um, and I'll, I'll keep, I'll keep going. I won't rest. Okay, uh, so my last, uh, raw snack question for you is, uh, I'm gonna ask you to complete a sentence and the sentence is, when life hands you lemons.

• 50:57Dan Pashman?

  I would say, when life hands you lemons, preserve them.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Hmm, that's a good one. Why, why, why do you say that?

• 51:03Dan Pashman?

  I just love preserved lemon. Um, I always have a jar of whole, whole preserved lemons. Uh, and somewhere in my house, I also love a New York shook preserved lemon paste.

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:14Dan Pashman?

  Which is really nice.

• 51:14Speaker 02

  Where it's like just pureed up for you?

• 51:16Dan Pashman?

  It's pureed. So it's great, you know, cause sometimes preserved lemon can be very strong.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:21Dan Pashman?

  Um, you, you can take like a little spoonful of the paste and add it into some other sauce. If you, if you're making something, you just feel like this just needs a little bit, it needs a little more tart, a little more funk or something. Um, I'll do like grilled chicken. New York shook makes this shawarma barbecue sauce that I love. So I'll do the shawarma barbecue sauce on chicken thighs with some salt. And then I'll add in a little of the preserved lemon paste into the mix too. So it's just like a little bit of like a lemony shawarma.

• 51:44Speaker 02

  That sounds really good.

• 51:45Dan Pashman?

  Out of this world.

• 51:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, out of this world. I, I love preserved lemons too. My mom makes them pretty much every year with Meyer lemons.

• 51:50Dan Pashman?

  Okay.

• 51:50Speaker 02

  And so they're a little softer in texture, but also in flavor. They're not like quite as punchy, punchy in the face. And I've done a puree of that too. That's a great answer. Preserved lemon.

• 51:59Dan Pashman?

  Have you ever heard of this dessert in, I, I guess it's somewhere near like Sorrento, uh, in Italy called Delizia al Limone?

• 52:06Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:07Dan Pashman?

  That would also be a good thing to do with lemons.

• 52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:09Dan Pashman?

  It's, uh, I had it once at this, at this, um, gelateria and it's like just stuck with me forever. I found it once in America, but it wasn't really as good. It's like, you gotta look, it's sort of like a, a, a light cake with like a lemon glaze and then also some other stuff poured on top that's sort of like soaking to the cake a little. But it's from like the part of Italy that's especially known for lemons.

• 52:30Speaker 02

  Yep. And those Italian lemons are incredible.

• 52:33Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 52:33Speaker 02

  Wow. Dan, this has been so fun, so informative. I'm glad we're, I feel like we had just have like an ongoing conversation that we will now pick up the next time we get together. But always such a spirited discussion and I love the way your, your mind works about food. Where can folks find you next? Where's Dan off to next and what's he working on?

• 52:49Dan Pashman?

  Sporkful Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow me on Instagram. If you go to sporkful.com, there's links there for where to buy my pasta.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 52:57Dan Pashman?

  And yeah, thanks so much for having me. Right back at you, Dan. I look forward to continuing the conversation. Yeah. And yeah, thanks so much, Lisa.

• 53:04Speaker 02

  That's great. And make sure that you check out Dan's pasta, Cascatelli, or my favorite, Quattro Tini, and the other one is Vesuvio.

• 53:11Dan Pashman?

  Yeah.

• 53:11Speaker 02

  Okay. Look for those pastas. You can get all the recipes that we talked about, the ATK ones, on the America's Test Kitchen app or americastestkitchen.com. Thanks, thanks, Lisa, as well. And we'll see you next time.

• 53:24Dan Pashman?

  That was In the Test Kitchen, a new podcast from our friends at America's Test Kitchen. You can find it wherever you get your podcasts, including on YouTube. They got a bunch of great episodes in their feed, including a conversation with barbecue expert Meathead, not to be confused with singer Mee Loaf, and another with Marina Mabry, a WNBA player for the Connecticut Suns. So go check all those out. And while you're here, check out more of our reheat. They're episodes from our archive that we replay for you every Friday. These are some of our very favorite shows from the Sporkful's past that are in our deep freezer that are not publicly available, so we bring them out and share them. Last week, our episode was with Phil Rosenthal from Somebody Feed Phil. We had another classic recently with Nadia Hussain from Great British Bake Off. These are really fun to revisit. Or if you just started listening to our show, it'll be the first time for you. So check them all out every Friday. And hey, did you know you can listen to the Sporkful on the

• 54:09Dan Pashman?

  SiriusXM app? Yes, the SiriusXM app, it has all your favorite podcasts, plus over 200 ad-free music channels curated by genre and era, plus live sports coverage. Does your podcasting app have that? And there's interviews with A-list stars and so much more. It's everything you want in a podcast app and music app all rolled into one. And right now, Sporkful listeners can get three months free of the SiriusXM app by going to siriusxm.com/sporkful.

• 54:36Dan Pashman?

  This episode was produced by me along with managing producer Emma Morgenstern. And senior producer Andres O'Hara. It was edited by Camille Stanley. Our engineer is Jared O'Connell. Our interns are Morgan Johnson. And Jasmine Sutherland. Music help from Black Label Music. The Sporkful is a production of Sirius XM Podcast. Our executive producer is Camille Stanley. Until next time, I'm Dan Pashman.

• 55:10Speaker 05

  This podcast is supported by Nurtac ODT. Remedy Pant. We know you didn't ask for an interruption, but migraine doesn't wait for the right moment to interrupt either. It just barges in, takes your time and throws everything off. So when migraine takes your time, take Nurtac. It's for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura in adults. Nurtac can provide pain relief in two hours, which can last up to two days. Ask your healthcare provider if Nurtac is right for you because your time is for you, not migraine. Don't take if allergic to Nurtac ODT. Allergic reactions can occur even days after use. Get help right away for trouble breathing, rash, swelling of face, mouth, tongue or throat. High blood pressure and Raynaud's syndrome can occur. Get help for high blood pressure, numbness, coolness, pain or color changes in fingers

• 55:55Speaker 05

  and toes. Common side effect is nausea. For full prescribing information, call 1-833-4-NUR-TAC or visit nurtec.com. All right, back to your podcast, playlist or whatever's keeping you going today.

• 56:09Speaker 06

  A dark night, a quiet house, but inside danger was lurking.

• 56:14Speaker 07

  Oh, we have Xfinity Shield. It's built in Wi-Fi feature detects movement without cameras.

• 56:18Speaker 06

  What she didn't know is that online they're lurking even bigger.

• 56:22Speaker 07

  Xfinity Cyber Secure protects us from digital threats too.

• 56:25Speaker 06

  I should have stuck to rom-coms.

• 56:27Speaker 07

  What if protecting your home and devices could be drama free? Introducing Xfinity Shield. Visit Xfinity.com/shield to learn more. Xfinity. Imagine that. Restriction supply not available in all areas. Xfinity Internet and compatible equipment required.