#304: How to Prioritize Your Life and Make Time for What Matters

Debbie Millman (@debbiemillman https://twitter.com/debbiemillman) was named by Graphic Design USA http://gdusa.com/ as "one of the most influential designers working today." She is also the founder and host of Design Matters http://www.debbiemillman.com/designmatters/, the world's first and longest-running podcast about design, where she's interviewed nearly 300 design luminaries and cultural commentators including Massimo Vignelli https://www.designmattersmedia.com/podcasts/Massimo-Vignelli and Milton Glaser https://www.designmattersmedia.com/podcasts/Milton-Glaser. Debbie's done it all. Her artwork has been exhibited around the world. She is the President Emeritus of AIGA http://www.aiga.org/ (one of only five women to hold the position in the organization's one-hundred-year history), the editorial and creative director of Print http://www.printmag.com/ magazine, and the author of six books https://www.amazon.com/Debbie-Millman/e/B001JRWX3U/ref=as_li_ss_tl?qid=1484165875&sr=8-1&linkCode=ll2&tag=offsitoftimfe-20&linkId=eed5c001f0af9abb8b8282de405cf1fc. In 2009, Debbie co-founded (with Steven Heller https://www.designmattersmedia.com/search?term=Steven%20Heller) the world's first masters program in branding at the School of Visual Arts http://branding.sva.edu/ in New York City, which has received international acclaim. In this episode, Debbie outlines: How to bounce back from rejection and criticism. The importance of mental health. Whether courage or confidence is more important. Five questions to help clarify your own purpose. And much, much more. Enjoy! This episode is brought to you by Ascent Protein https://www.ascentprotein.com/tim, the only US-based company that offers native proteins — both whey and micellar casein — directly to the consumer for improved muscle health and performance. Because the product is sourced from Ascent’s parent company, Leprino Foods — the largest producer of mozzarella cheese in the world — it’s entirely free of artificial ingredients and completely bypasses the bleaching process common to most other whey products on the market. If you want cleaner, more pure, less processed protein — which I certainly do — go to ascentprotein.com/tim for 20 percent off your entire order https://www.ascentprotein.com/tim! I’m a big fan of all of their flavors — the chocolate, vanilla, and even their newest option, cappuccino. Enjoy! This episode is also brought to you by Four Sigmatic http://foursigmatic.com/ferriss. While I often praise this company's lion's mane mushroom coffee for a minimal caffeine wakeup call that lasts, I asked the founders if they could help me -- someone who's struggled with insomnia for decades -- sleep. Their answer: Reishi Mushroom Elixir. They made a special batch for me and my listeners that comes without sweetener; you can try it at bedtime with a little honey or nut milk, or you can just add hot water to your single-serving packet and embrace its bitterness like I do. Try it right now by going to foursigmatic.com/ferriss http://foursigmatic.com/ferriss and using the code Ferriss to get 20 percent off this rare, limited run of Reishi Mushroom Elixir. If you are in the experimental mindset, I do not think you'll be disappointed. *** If you enjoy the podcast, would you please consider leaving a short review on Apple Podcasts https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-tim-ferriss-show/id863897795?mt=2/iTunes? It takes less than 60 seconds, and it really makes a difference in helping to convince hard-to-get guests. I also love reading the reviews! For show notes and past guests, please visit tim.blog/podcast https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description. Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (“5-Bullet Friday”) at tim.blog/friday https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/. For transcripts of episodes, go to tim.blog/transcripts http://tim.blog/transcripts. Interested in sponsoring the podcast? Please fill out the form at tim.blog/sponsor http://tim.blog/sponsor. Discover Tim’s books: tim.blog/books http://tim.blog/books. 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Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question?

• 0:08Speaker 01

  No, we're just seeing an appropriate time.

• 0:12Speaker 00

  I'm a cybernetic organism, living tissue over metal endoskeleton.

• 0:24Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Ascent Protein, the cleanest, least processed protein I've ever consumed. And I have tried just about everything since well before the Four Hour Body. I've started my day with 20 to 30 grams of protein, first thing. That has been part of my routine. But I don't always have the time or necessarily the desire to cook an entire meal. So what to do? Protein powders can be a fast way to get this protein need met, but most products are full of crap. They're bleached, they have excess sugar, terrible artificial sweeteners, or just straightforward, low-grade, low-quality protein. Ascent contains zero artificial ingredients and the parent company is actually a cheese manufacturer.

• 1:08Tim Ferriss?

  So they produce their own native proteins. It's, it's really fascinating and I've looked at their processing it takes, or it took them about five years to develop. You can mix the protein in as little as four ounces without any clumps or issues of mixability whatsoever. And they nailed the taste. They tested, for instance, for the chocolate version, 282 different versions. They put a lot of money and a lot of time into R and D for this particular product. If you love coffee, they also have a brand new cappuccino flavor, which is a variation I've enjoyed. If you prefer to test something outside of the traditional vanilla or chocolate. And they have both whey and MyCellar casein.

• 1:51Tim Ferriss?

  So if you want to say, improve body composition and recovery overnight, slow release, you can take the MyCellar casein. Or in my case, whey protein, I would take post-workout, for instance, or in the morning. So check it out. These guys are really fascinating. Visit ascentprotein.com/tim.

• 2:10Tim Ferriss?

  Ascentprotein.com, ascent like first ascent going up, ascentprotein.com/tim and you will receive 20% off your entire purchase. If you want a very quick 20 to 30 gram dose to start your day or after workout, this is a fantastic option. It is arguably the best that I've found. So again, check it out. Ascentprotein.com/tim.

• 2:38Tim Ferriss?

  This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. You might remember Four Sigmatic for their mushroom coffee, which was created by those clever Finnish founders. And when I first mentioned that coffee on this podcast, the product sold out in less than a week. It lights you up like a Christmas tree, which can be really useful. However, recently I've been testing the opposite side of the spectrum, a new product, and that is their reishi mushroom elixir to help me end my day, to get to sleep. As you guys may know, longtime listeners at least, I struggled with insomnia for decades. I've largely fixed that, but still shutting off my monkey brain has never been easy, still isn't easy very often. And I found reishi, which I've been fascinated by for a few years now, has been very, very effective and calming.

• 3:23Tim Ferriss?

  Their old formula, however, Four Sigmatic's old formula included stevia and I like to avoid sweeteners, all sweeteners for a host of reasons. And I then just pinged them and asked, hey, guys, I would love to experiment with this and maybe actually suggest it, but I'd like a version without sweeteners. If you'd be open to it, if too much of a headache, don't worry. And they are always game for experimentation. And so they created a special custom version without the stevia, without sweeteners. Now it is part of my nightly routine. Their reishi elixir comes in single serving packets, which are perfect for travel. And in fact, I'm about to leave the country right now and I have a packet in front of me that's just going to sit in the end of my carry on bag.

• 4:07Tim Ferriss?

  You only need hot water and it mixes very, very easily. Here's some recommended copy that they put in the read. So I'm going to read it and then I'll give you my take. A warning for those in the experimental mindset. Reishi is strong and bitter, in parentheses, like any great medicine. So if the bitterness is too much, I recommend trying it with honey and/or nut milk such as almond milk. End quote. So I'm gonna say, no, you should suck it up and you should drink the tea because it's not that bitter. And maybe you should take the advice of old Chinese people when they're criticizing young ins when they say, "不能吃苦," which means you're not able to eat bitterness. Bitter is, in many cases, an indication of things that help liver detoxification and so on.

• 4:52Tim Ferriss?

  Not saying that's the case here, but I've tested this reishi elixir on family members, on friends. Everybody has liked it. It's a little bit earthy. It's not that hard. So I would just say suck it up and no, don't put in honey or nut milk or any of that shit. Just drink the goddamn tea. It's delicious, I think, right? If you like pu-erh, that kind of stuff, that type of tea, you're gonna dig it. So just try it. Okay, back to then my read. If you'd like to naturally improve your sleep, both onset and quality, I think naturally, you might just enjoy this reishi elixir without any sweeteners. It has organic reishi extract, organic field mint extract, organic rose hips extract, organic tulsi extract. And that's it.

• 5:36Tim Ferriss?

  No fancy stuff, no artificial whatchamacallit, anything. So check it out. Go to foursigmatic.com/ferris and get 20% off this special batch. I don't know if they're gonna be making much more of this, since it was made specifically for you guys. So do me a favor and try it out so that they continue to be open to experimenting with me to create products for you guys specifically. Check it out, foursigmatic, that's F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C.com/ferris, F-E-R-R-I-S-S, and get 20% off the special batch. And you must use the code ferris to receive your discount, F-E-R-R-I-S-S.

• 6:14Tim Ferriss?

  So again, go to foursigmatic.com/ferris and then use code ferris for 20% off of this rare, exclusive, limited run of reishi mushroom elixir for nighttime routines without any sweeteners. Enjoy.

• 6:34Tim Ferriss?

  Well, hello there. Welcome to another episode of The Tim Ferriss Show, where it is my job to share the habits, tools, and patterns of world-class performers of all different types. This special episode is shorter than usual and features thoughts and recommendations from Debbie Millman, who in her first appearance on this podcast, gave a wide-ranging and very emotionally impactful interview that is still one of the most downloaded episodes of all time on this podcast. You can check that out at tim.blog/debbie if you want a longer form conversation. But this will be a shorter taste of Debbie. Debbie, at Debbie Millman on Twitter, has been called, quote, "one of the most influential designers working today," end quote, by Graphic Design USA. She is the founder and host of

• 7:16Tim Ferriss?

  Design Matters, the world's first and longest-running podcast about design, where she's interviewed nearly 300 design luminaries and cultural commentators, including Massimo Vignelli and Milton Glaser. Debbie has, I suppose, to put it one way, done it all. Her artwork has been exhibited around the world. She is the president emeritus of AIGA, one of only five women to hold the position in the organization's 100-year history, the editorial and creative director of Print Magazine, and the author of six books. In 2009, Debbie co-founded, alongside Stephen Heller, the world's first master's program in branding at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, which has received international acclaim. So she has been on many different adventures

• 7:57Tim Ferriss?

  in many different fields and has learned a lot of very, very impactful lessons that you can apply, hopefully, to your own life. In this episode, Debbie outlines more than a few things, but among them, she talks about how to bounce back from rejection and criticism, and shares some of her personal stories, the importance of mental health, whether courage or confidence is more important, if you had to pick one, five questions to help you clarify your own purpose, and much, much more. So without further ado, please enjoy this shorter episode with Debbie Millman.

• 8:31Tim Ferriss?

  Debbie, what is the book or books that you've given most as a gift and why? Or what are one, say, to three books that have greatly influenced your life?

• 8:41Debbie Millman?

  Well, a book that has influenced my life and one that I keep going back to over and over is the anthology, The Voice That Is Great Within Us: American Poetry of the 20th Century, gorgeously, thoughtfully, and carefully edited by Hayden Carruth. It was required reading in a summer college class I attended back in the early 1980s. This funny-looking book introduced me to my most treasured, deeply felt poem, Maximus to Himself by Charles Olson, which has since become the blueprint of my life, as well as the poetry of Denise Levertov, Adrienne Rich, Ezra Pound, Wallace Stevens, and so many more.

• 9:24Debbie Millman?

  I still have my original copy from the 1980s, and though the cover has come off and the spine is cracked in numerous places, I will never replace it. And Tim, I thought I'd read a version of Charles Olson's Maximus to Himself, since it is my favorite poem and I get such great joy reading this.

• 9:47Debbie Millman?

  Maximus to Himself by Charles Olson. "I have had to learn the simplest things last, which made for difficulties. Even at sea, I was slow to get the hand out or to cross a wet deck. The sea was not, finally, my trade, but even my trade at it, I stood estranged from that which was most familiar, was delayed, and not content with the man's argument that such postponement is now the nature of obedience, that we are all late in a slow time, that we grow up many and the single is not easily known.

• 10:26Debbie Millman?

  It could be, though the sharpness, the achyote, I note in others, makes more sense than my own distances, the agilities, they show daily who do the world's businesses and who do New natures, as I have no sense I have done either. I have made dialogues, have discussed ancient texts, have thrown what light I could, offered what pleasures docite allows. But the known, this I have had to be given, a life, love, and from one man, the world. Tokens. But sitting here, I look out as a wind and water man, testing and missing some proof. I know the quarters of the weather, where it comes from, where it goes.

• 11:11Debbie Millman?

  But the stem of me, this I took from their welcome or their rejection of me. And my arrogance was neither diminished nor increased by the communication. It is undone business I speak of this morning, with the sea stretching out from my feet.

• 11:31Tim Ferriss?

  What purchase of a hundred dollars or less has most positively impacted your life in the last six months or in recent memory?

• 11:39Debbie Millman?

  Well, the purchase that has influenced me over the last six months is the Apple pencil. I do so much of my artwork by hand. And now there is a device that draws and feels like a real pencil that I can use electronically. It's changed the way I work.

• 11:54Tim Ferriss?

  How has a failure or apparent failure set you up for later success? Do you have a, quote, favorite failure, end quote, of yours?

• 12:05Debbie Millman?

  Oh, Tim, I have so many failures. I think the first decade of my career were experiments and failure, rejection and humiliation. But I do have a favorite, so I will share that. In early 2003, a good friend sent me an email with a subject line that read, "Begin drinking heavily before opening." The email contained a link to a blog titled Speak Up, the first ever online forum about graphic design and branding in the world. Suddenly sprawled before my eyes, I found myself reading an article that disparaged my entire career. This particular incident, in tandem with a number of historical rejections and setbacks

• 12:50Debbie Millman?

  and humiliations, sent me into a really deep depression. And I seriously considered leaving the design profession altogether.

• 13:00Debbie Millman?

  However, however, in the 14 years since this occurred, this utter takedown of everything I'd done to date and everything I thought was a complete and total failure for a long, long time, ultimately transformed into the foundation of everything I've done since. Everything I am doing now contains the seeds of origin from that time. So it turns out, for me, the worst professional experience I've faced ultimately became the most important defining experience of my life.

• 13:38Tim Ferriss?

  Debbie, if you could have a giant billboard anywhere with anything on it, what would it say and why?

• 13:44Debbie Millman?

  This is easy. My billboard would say this: Busy is a decision. I say this all the time, ad nauseam, and here's why. Of the many, many excuses people use to rationalize why they can't do something, the excuse "I am too busy" is not only the most inauthentic, it is also the laziest. I don't believe in too busy. Busy is a decision. We do the things we want to do, period. If we say we're too busy, I believe it is shorthand for not important enough. It means you would rather be doing something else that you consider more important. That thing could be sleep, it could be sex, it could be watching

• 14:27Debbie Millman?

  Game of Thrones. If we use busy as an excuse for not doing something, what we are really, really saying is that it's not a priority, it's not as important to us. So simply put, you don't find the time to do something, you make the time to do things. I think we're now living in a society that sees busy as a badge. It has become cultural cachet to use the excuse "I am too busy" as a reason for not doing anything we don't feel like doing. The problem is this: If you let yourself off the hook for not doing something for any reason, you won't ever do it. If you want to do something, you can't let being busy stand in the way. Even if you are busy, make the time to do the things you want to

• 15:12Debbie Millman?

  do, and then follow through and do them.

• 15:16Tim Ferriss?

  What is one of the best or most worthwhile investments you've ever made?

• 15:21Debbie Millman?

  This answer might surprise you, or maybe not. But the best investment I've ever made was in psychotherapy. When I first started, I was in my early 30s and the bills practically killed me. But I knew I needed to deeply understand all the destructive things that had happened to me in order to try to live a remarkable life despite these things. And I wanted this more than anything. Over the years, I still sometimes smart at the monthly invoices, but I've never doubted that this investment has profoundly, profoundly shaped who I've become. And although I still think I have a lot of work to do,

• 16:03Debbie Millman?

  it's changed and then saved my life in every imaginable way. And I'm in what is called psychoanalytic psychotherapy. Put another way, psychoanalysis with an emphasis on self-psychology. And so for me, talk therapy is the only thing that I've ever really felt drawn to. Things like EMDR and behavior modification might be really, really helpful for other people, but they seem a little bit too voodoo for me. So some things that I think are important to consider strictly from my perspective, I'm not an expert at assessing or analyzing the value or worth of psychoanalysis. Only I am able to convey what this has done for me.

• 16:45Debbie Millman?

  But for me, once a week, therapy did not work well. Twice or more gives you continuity and an opportunity to germinate in a way that once a week doesn't. Also, once a week almost feels like a catch-up. You sort of bring the therapist up to speed on what happened in the last week and then you have 20 minutes to sort of talk about what's happening right now. Therapy takes time. I often say that anything worthwhile takes a long time, and therapy is one of those things. I've been in therapy for a really long time, for decades. But I can now, after those decades, actually point to empirical evidence of how my behavior in the world, my sense of who I am, has fundamentally, fundamentally changed.

• 17:30Debbie Millman?

  And so being in therapy and being in therapy for any length of time, it takes dedication, it takes stamina, it takes resilience, persistence, and a lot of courage to face things that you might be really afraid to look at. So it's not a quick fix, but like I said, it's really saved my life. Try and tell your therapist everything. If you edit who you are, or if you pretend to be something that you're not in order to impress the therapist, if you want to project who or how you want to be seen, it will take that much longer. So just be yourself. They've likely, in their practice, heard everything. They understand humanity. So just be yourself.

• 18:14Debbie Millman?

  If you're afraid your therapist will judge you, tell them that also, because that whole projection is really critical to understanding the dynamic that you have with people in general. So all of these things are really important to talk about. There is no shame in feeling shame, and I'm saying this from a place of deep empathy. Almost everyone feels shame. I think Brene Brown says that anybody that doesn't feel shame is likely a pathological person. So almost everyone does, and therapy will help you understand it. There is nothing like understanding your motivations and insecurities to help you integrate all of those feelings in your psyche

• 18:58Debbie Millman?

  in the most healthy and authentic way. So for me, I would not recommend going to a therapist that one of your friends goes to. Asking your friends for a referral and then going to somebody that they see might seem like a good idea because that person trusts them, and therefore, by extension, you might feel like you can too. But it ends up blurring things quite a bit. And I think most therapists abide by this rule now of not seeing friends or clients of friends. Things really do get very blurry and boundaries can get weird, and I just don't recommend that. Okay, big elephant in the room here. It is going to be expensive.

• 19:42Debbie Millman?

  But what is more valuable than better understanding who you are, breaking intrinsic bad habits, getting over much of your shit, or at least understanding why you do the shit in the first place, and generally living a happier, more contented, more peaceful life? One thing that I've come to understand recently, and this was actually not only through the help of my therapist and guidance from my therapist, but also through my dear, dear friend Seth Godin, is understanding the difference between happiness and pleasure. And I think people are often trying to reach for and strive for pleasure. And the response to trying to seek pleasure is actually wanting more pleasure after that. You know, we live on this hedonistic treadmill.

• 20:27Debbie Millman?

  We metabolize our purchases and our experiences very quickly. And so when we have that pleasure or experience that pleasure, then we want more. Happiness is very different. Happiness essentially means you're okay as is. You don't need more. You don't want more. You feel good with what you have. And I think that therapy really helps you understand the difference between what you seek, what your motivations are, and ultimately what you want and how you can manifest that in your life. So breaking these intrinsic bad habits, getting over much of your shit, and generally living this happier, more contented, more peaceful life is something that I think is the ultimate gift of therapy.

• 21:11Debbie Millman?

  Or the payoff. And lastly, my advice to anyone looking for a therapist is to make sure they're really trained. I highly recommend training here. A PhD, an MD, plus postdoctoral training. You really do get what you pay for here. And I highly recommend somebody that is truly, fully educated in what they do.

• 21:33Tim Ferriss?

  What is an unusual habit or an absurd thing that you love?

• 21:38Debbie Millman?

  I've been told that because I like to make up silly songs and then sing them in all sorts of absurd situations and occurrences, that I am trying to turn my life into a Hollywood musical. And since I was first told that, I've come to completely agree with that, and I think that is awesome. But I have songs for everything. I have songs, I used to have songs for feeding my cats, but they've since both passed away. I have songs for my dogs. I have songs while I'm cooking. I usually take some well-known tune and then rewrite the lyrics for whatever it is I'm experiencing. So, for example, when I was feeding my cats, when I would open up the cans of cat food, I would sing,

• 22:19Debbie Millman?

  "Who wants it fancy? Who wants it feisty? Who wants it fancy? Who wants it feisty? Feisty, fancy, fancy, feisty. Let's open up the cans now." They loved it. Everybody else around me hated it, but they loved it.

• 22:37Tim Ferriss?

  In the last five years, what new belief, behavior, or habit has most improved your life?

• 22:43Debbie Millman?

  After a Design Matters interview with the great writer Dani Shapiro, we started to talk about the role of confidence in success. Apparently, I think at that time, about four new books on confidence had come out. And she went on to state that she felt that confidence was highly overrated, and I was instantly intrigued and asked her why. And she explained that she felt that most people, that she felt that most overly confident people were really annoying, and that most confident people were usually a little bit on the arrogant side. She felt that overexuding that amount of confidence was a sure sign that a person was compensating for some type of internal psychological deficit. Instead,

• 23:28Debbie Millman?

  Dani declared that courage was more important than confidence. Taking that first step in doing anything was the real key to begin to manifest the possibility of that thing happening. So when you're operating out of courage, you're saying that no matter how you feel about yourself, or your opportunities, or the outcome, you're going to take a risk and take a step toward what you want. You're not waiting for the confidence to mysteriously arrive. And since then, I've been thinking a lot about, well, how do you develop confidence? How do you bring that confidence to whatever it is you do? And I've come to the conclusion that, and this is my definition of confidence now,

• 24:10Debbie Millman?

  is that confidence is the successful repetition of any endeavor. So if you think back to something that you had to learn for the first time, walking, for example. You didn't start walking and just start walking perfectly. You were crawling, you were holding on to things, and then ultimately, you get that ability to step up and take that first step, and then you learn how to walk. But even a better example, I think, is driving. When most of us start driving, we have to take driving lessons. We're really nervous about being in the car, behind the wheel. We have this big instrument that we have to control. Most of us are really, really nervous at our driving test and are hoping and praying that we'll be able to pass.

• 24:53Debbie Millman?

  But over time, once you do pass, once you have your license, you start driving more regularly. You turn on the ignition, you drive around, you do your errands, you take road trips, cross-country trips, whatever. And after a certain amount of time, when you get into the car and turn on the ignition, you don't worry about the possibility that this might be the day that you kill someone behind the wheel. You have what I call car confidence. You get in the car, you know how to drive, and you figure that you're going to be able to get from point A to point B rather unremarkably. And I think that that is the case for anything that we do, anything new that we start. It's highly unlikely that we will feel enormously confident doing something we've never done before.

• 25:37Debbie Millman?

  It takes time to be able to manifest confidence through the successful repetition of any endeavor. We end up having a certain internal pattern recognition by the fact that we've done this thing before fairly well, maybe excellently, and we anticipate that the results will be the same the next time we do it. So the more you practice doing something, the better you will inevitably get at it, and your confidence will then grow over time.

• 26:05Tim Ferriss?

  What advice would you give to a smart, driven college student about to enter the real world? Or what advice do you think they should ignore?

• 26:12Debbie Millman?

  Well, since I teach, I have a lot of opinions on what advice to give college students. I think one of the most important is about job hunting. Like everything else meaningful in life, it takes training to get good at job hunting. You don't just find and get a great job. You don't just go to the supermarket and pick a great job off of a shelf. You have to find and win a great job against a pool of very competitive candidates who may want that job as much, if not more, than you do. So finding and winning a great job is a competitive sport that requires as much career athleticism and perseverance as making it to the Olympics.

• 26:55Debbie Millman?

  You must be in the finest career shape possible in order to win. There is very little luck involved, and I've done hundreds of Design Matters interviews where I'm sitting across people, really successful people, that say, "Oh, it's just luck. I just got lucky." And I look at them and I always say, "Really?" Because it's very little to do with luck. There might be some timing involved, but it's the timing that is resulting in showing up every day, doing the work, getting better and better and better at the work, and then being the person most qualified when that opportunity shows up. Winning your great job is about hard work. It's about stamina. It's about grit, ingenuity, and timing.

• 27:38Debbie Millman?

  And what might look like luck to you is simply hard work paying off. So here are some questions I tell my students to ask themselves as they set out on their path in the real world to win a job. Am I spending enough time on looking for, finding, and working toward winning a great job? Am I constantly refining and improving my skills? What can I continue to get better and more competitive at? Do I believe that I am working harder than everyone else? If not, what can and should I be doing in order to be able to accomplish that? What are the people who are competing with me doing that I am not doing?

• 28:21Debbie Millman?

  Am I doing everything I can every single day to stay in career shape? If not, what else should I be doing? One piece of advice I think that people should ignore is the value of being a people person. Because as lovely as it might be to be a people person, no one cares if you're a people person. Have a point of view and share it meaningfully, thoughtfully, respectfully, and with conviction.

• 28:52Tim Ferriss?

  What are bad recommendations you hear in your profession or area of expertise?

• 28:57Debbie Millman?

  I don't believe in work-life balance. I believe if you view your work as a calling, it is a labor of love rather than laborious. When your work is a calling, you are not approaching the amount of hours you are working with with a sense of dread or counting the minutes until the weekend. Your calling can become a life-affirming engagement that can provide its own balance and spiritual nourishment. And ironically, it takes hard work to achieve this. So when you're in your 20s and your 30s and you want to have a remarkable, fulfilling career, you must work hard. If you don't work harder than everyone else, you will not get ahead. Also, if you're looking for work-life balance in your 20s or 30s, you're likely in the wrong career.

• 29:40Debbie Millman?

  If you're doing something that you love, you don't want work-life balance. You want to be able to do this thing that you love as often as possible.

• 29:49Tim Ferriss?

  When you feel overwhelmed or unfocused, what do you do?

• 29:53Debbie Millman?

  Well, as a loud-mouthed, native New Yorker, I have often regretted acting impulsively when I'm feeling angry or frustrated. And now, when I feel that familiar urge to respond defensively or say things that I don't really mean, or bang out a wounded response via email or text to some supposed hurt, I wait. I force myself to breathe, take a step back, and wait to respond. Just an hour or two or an overnight retreat makes a world of difference. And if all else fails, I try to obey this message I got in a fortune cookie, which I have since taped to my laptop. Avoid compulsively making things worse.

• 30:43Tim Ferriss?

  Hey guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is Five Bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? Would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday? That provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend. And Five Bullet Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week. That could include favorite new albums that I've discovered. It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up in the world of the esoteric, as I do. It could include favorite articles that I've read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short.

• 31:25Tim Ferriss?

  It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to fourhourworkweek.com. That's fourhourworkweek.com, all spelled out, and just drop in your email and you will get the very next one. And if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it. This episode is brought to you by Four Sigmatic. You might remember Four Sigmatic for their mushroom coffee, which was created by those clever Finnish founders. And when I first mentioned that coffee on this podcast, the product sold out in less than a week. It lights you up like a Christmas tree, which can be really useful. However, recently I've been testing the opposite side of the spectrum, a new product.

• 32:05Tim Ferriss?

  And that is their Reishi Mushroom Elixir to help me end my day, to get to sleep. As you guys may know, longtime listeners at least, I struggled with insomnia for decades. I've largely fixed that, but still shutting off my monkey brain has never been easy, still isn't easy very often. And I've found Reishi, which I've been fascinated by for a few years now, has been very, very effective and calming. Their old formula, however, Four Sigmatic's old formula, included stevia, and I like to avoid sweeteners, all sweeteners, for a host of reasons.

• 32:38Tim Ferriss?

  And I then just pinged them and asked, "Hey guys, I would love to experiment with this and maybe actually suggest it, but I'd like a version without sweeteners if you'd be open to it. If too much of a headache, don't worry." And they are always game for experimentation. So they created a special custom version without the stevia, without sweeteners. Now it is part of my nightly routine. Their reishi elixir comes in single-serving packets, which are perfect for travel. And in fact, I'm about to leave the country right now and I have a packet in front of me that's just gonna sit in the end of my carry-on bag. You only need hot water and it mixes very, very easily. Here's some recommended copy that they put in the read. So I'm gonna read it and then I'll give you my take.

• 33:23Tim Ferriss?

  Quote, "A warning for those in the experimental mindset. Reishi is strong and bitter," in parentheses, "like any great medicine. So if the bitterness is too much, I recommend trying it with honey and/or nut milk, such as almond milk," end quote. So I'm gonna say, "No, you should suck it up and you should drink the tea because it's not that bitter. And maybe you should take the advice of old Chinese people when they're criticizing young'uns when they say, '不能吃苦,' which means you're not able to eat bitterness." Bitter is, in many cases, an indication of things that help liver detoxification and so on. Not saying that's the case here, but I've tested this reishi elixir on family members, on friends. Everybody has liked it. It's a little bittery, it's not that hard.

• 34:08Tim Ferriss?

  So I would just say suck it up and no, don't put in honey or nut milk or any of that shit. Just drink the goddamn tea, it's delicious, I think. If you like pu er, that kind of stuff, that type of tea, you're gonna dig it. So just try it. Okay, back to then my read. If you'd like to naturally improve your sleep, both onset and quality, I think naturally... You might just enjoy this reishi elixir without any sweeteners. It has organic reishi extract, organic field mint extract, organic rose hips extract, organic tulsi extract, and that's it. No fancy stuff, no artificial whatchamacallit, anything. So check it out. Go to foursigmatic.com/ferris and get 20% off this special batch.

• 34:51Tim Ferriss?

  I don't know if they're gonna be making much more of this, since it was made specifically for you guys. So do me a favor and try it out, so that they continue to be open to experimenting with me to create products for you guys specifically. Check it out, foursigmatic, that's F-O-U-R-S-I-G-M-A-T-I-C.com/ferris, F-E-R-R-I-S-S, and get 20% off this special batch. And you must use the code ferris to receive your discount, F-E-R-R-I-S-S. So again, go to foursigmatic.com/ferris, and then use code ferris for 20% off of this rare, exclusive, limited run of reishi mushroom elixir for nighttime routines without any sweeteners.

• 35:36Tim Ferriss?

  Enjoy. This episode is brought to you by Ascent Protein, the cleanest, least processed protein I've ever consumed, and I have tried just about everything. Since well before The 4-Hour Body, I've started my day with 20 to 30 grams of protein, first thing. That has been part of my routine. But I don't always have the time or necessarily the desire to cook an entire meal. So what to do? Protein powders can be a fast way to get this protein need met, but most products are full of crap. They're bleached, they have excess sugar, terrible artificial sweeteners, or just straightforward, low-grade, low-quality protein. Ascent contains zero artificial ingredients, and the parent company is actually a cheese

• 36:21Tim Ferriss?

  manufacturer, so that they produce their own native proteins. It's really fascinating, and I've looked at their processing it takes, or it took them about five years to develop. You can mix the protein in as little as four ounces without any clumps or issues of mixability. whatsoever and they nailed the taste. They tested, for instance, for the chocolate version, 282 different versions. They put a lot of money and a lot of time into R and D for this particular product. If you love coffee, they also have a brand new cappuccino flavor, which is a variation I've enjoyed if you prefer to test something outside of the traditional vanilla or chocolate. And they have both whey and mycello casings.

• 37:05Tim Ferriss?

  So if you want to say, improve body composition and recovery overnight, slow release, you can take the mycello casing, or in my case, whey protein, I would take post-workout, for instance, or in the morning. So check it out. These guys are really fascinating. Visit ascentprotein.com/tim. That's A-S-C-E-N-T-P-R-O-T-E-I-N.com. Ascent, like first ascent going up. Ascentprotein.com/tim and you will receive 20% off your entire purchase. If you want a very quick 20 to 30 gram dose to start your day or after workout, this is a fantastic option. It is arguably the best that I've found. So again, check it out. Ascentprotein.com/tim.