#2510 - Devon Larratt

Devon Larratt is a veteran of the Canadian Armed Forces and a professional arm wrestler who is widely considered one of the sport’s greatest competitors.www.youtube.com/@devlarratthttps://armbet.nethttps://linktr.ee/devonlarratt Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  Chuck, Chuck, what's happening, my man?

• 0:14Speaker 02

  I'm so happy.

• 0:15Joe Rogan?

  So happy to see you.

• 0:16Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 0:17Joe Rogan?

  What's going on?

• 0:17Speaker 02

  Joe, thank you so much, first of all.

• 0:19Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure.

• 0:20Speaker 02

  I feel like, you know, you are the loudspeaker of the planet, man, and I'm so honored to be here.

• 0:26Joe Rogan?

  That's a very uncomfortable position to be in, I'll tell you that. It's very weird.

• 0:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I bet. I bet. But look, I mean, you've talked to everybody on the planet, and I think I'm honored to be your first arm wrestler.

• 0:38Joe Rogan?

  Well, if I'm gonna have an arm wrestler, it has to be the GOAT.

• 0:40Speaker 02

  Oh, highly debated, highly debated, but I'll take it.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  You're in the conversation.

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm in the conversation. There's a couple of us, I think. John Brzink. I don't know, how close do you follow arm wrestling?

• 0:53Joe Rogan?

  Very little.

• 0:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 0:54Joe Rogan?

  I follow you. Well, I'm most fascinated by the fact that you can't extend your arm.

• 1:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01Joe Rogan?

  His arms don't straighten now.

• 1:03Speaker 02

  No, they don't, unfortunately.

• 1:05Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Yeah. It didn't work when I was trying to fight Thor either. It kind of limited the extension, but...

• 1:13Joe Rogan?

  When did that start happening?

• 1:16Speaker 02

  So, I was, I got into club arm wrestling. I arm wrestled with my, when I was a kid, but I got into club arm wrestling around like 18. By the time I was 20 or so, we had this champion called Crazy George, okay? He's like a very old, very decorated champion, and he famously, at the time for me, he couldn't straighten his elbows. And I was like, "Oh, man, I can't wait till my elbows don't straighten." Like a silly, a silly wish, right? So, it started early, like, I think I was like, probably like, in my late twenties. And it just, the range started to shrink.

• 1:58Joe Rogan?

  And how, why does that from?

• 2:00Speaker 02

  It's just pressure mostly, like just the constant pressure on the elbow joint causes, you know, osteophytes potentially, like, and it doesn't happen to all the arm wrestlers.

• 2:11Joe Rogan?

  Have you got an MRI on it?

• 2:12Speaker 02

  I've had three surgeries.

• 2:14Joe Rogan?

  To straighten them out?

• 2:15Speaker 02

  To remove bone and scar tissue.

• 2:19Joe Rogan?

  Just chip bones and stuff?

• 2:20Speaker 02

  Chip bones. Dr. Pollack, bless his soul, at the Ottawa Hospital, has extended my career till till this age, you know. Yeah, it can, that's probably one of the worst chronic conditions that arm wrestlers get is, you know, if the bone growth gets bad enough, it can start to constrict your nerves or blood flow, and that's when it becomes a problem.

• 2:44Joe Rogan?

  Has that happened to you?

• 2:45Speaker 02

  Hundred percent.

• 2:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah?

• 2:46Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I was, what, I was probably, it was like 2013, so, like 13 years ago is when I had my first surgery. And at that point, like, trying to move forward, trying to move forward.

• 2:59Joe Rogan?

  Pull it out as far as you can go. That's it?

• 3:02Speaker 02

  That's it, buddy. That's it.

• 3:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow. And the left is a little more than the right, it looks like.

• 3:07Speaker 02

  Probably a little bit.

• 3:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I've had two surgeries on the right, one on the left, but in my mind, you know, it's a small price to pay, you know, like, I'm as all in in arm wrestling as you can possibly be. And this is our cost of admission for some of us, you know, and...

• 3:25Joe Rogan?

  Does that happen to every arm wrestler?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:27Joe Rogan?

  No?

• 3:28Speaker 02

  No. There's lots of arm wrestlers, it's a style thing, it's a genetic predisposition, it's, I rolled the dice wrong one day and had a bad match. You know, I think what happens is, it's really, it's the pressure, it's the bones, over time, if you're, and then it's, if you're a dummy and, you know, keep on doing it when you should probably rest, that probably doesn't help, and I'm guilty, you know, so...

• 3:55Joe Rogan?

  Like most of the greats.

• 3:58Speaker 02

  Anyways, it doesn't affect me in the sport. I actually, I call it weaponized arthritis.

• 4:07Speaker 02

  Because there are ways you can kind of make your loss of range work for you at times.

• 4:13Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 4:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, because there's like, right, you know, like if you're doing an arm bar, okay? Like, your body resists with the ligaments and the tendons. So that starts higher for me. And I think that there's a muscular strength component that kicks in as well, right at the end of the range to protect you. So I just have a higher, you know, arm bar, you know?

• 4:35Joe Rogan?

  Does it, did it help you in arm bars as well?

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Oh, God, no, it doesn't. A good jujitsu guy is still gonna, he's still gonna arm bar me, no.

• 4:42Joe Rogan?

  It's also the bones would just snap.

• 4:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's just gonna snap higher.

• 4:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, snap in bad places.

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:48Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever try hanging from like a chin up bar to straighten it out?

• 4:52Speaker 02

  I've tried a lot of things.

• 4:54Joe Rogan?

  I saw a video with you in Jujimufu.

• 4:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:57Joe Rogan?

  Is that how you say his name?

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, Juji.

• 4:59Joe Rogan?

  Juji, Juji Mufu?

• 5:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, Juji Mufu, John Call, yeah, he's great.

• 5:03Joe Rogan?

  He's great, he's such a character. But they were rolling, they were trying to like, do some stuff with like, these big metal bars to roll out your muscles. And you were in fucking agony.

• 5:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 5:15Joe Rogan?

  I was like, that is crazy to watch. Like, you really can't straighten your arm, and when they were trying, you were screaming.

• 5:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's terrible. I've kind of just accepted it.

• 5:26Joe Rogan?

  Did you ever try to hang?

• 5:27Speaker 02

  I've tried so many things, but I, when I was young, when I was 20, I was wishing for the day that I could be like Crazy George.

• 5:37Joe Rogan?

  Your arm doesn't straighten out.

• 5:39Speaker 02

  It's, it's interesting, you know, like, I'm not, if I was like, all about straightening my arm, I could probably still do it. Because the bone is actually removed. Now, it's a sheath, there's like a capsule that surrounds a joint, that is probably the root cause of it.

• 5:57Joe Rogan?

  What is the capsule made of?

• 5:58Speaker 02

  I believe it's, was fascia, just connective structure, I think it encapsulates the joint.

• 6:05Joe Rogan?

  So everything is just sort of condensed to hold the joint together?

• 6:08Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 6:09Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 6:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:10Joe Rogan?

  It's a kind of a unique study. If you were like a physiologist, or you're studying human anatomy, you would say, okay, like, what is possible?

• 6:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:19Joe Rogan?

  You know, like, do you know about David Goggins's knees?

• 6:23Speaker 02

  I know David Goggins, I don't know about his knees.

• 6:26Joe Rogan?

  His knees are so cra- he's bone on bone.

• 6:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:29Joe Rogan?

  With both knees. And he went to the doctor and the doctor said, "I don't know how you can walk with these knees. Forget about run thousands of miles." So his knees had the, it's, it's, what is it called, Jamie? It's like wolf something? It's like, there's a condition when you're bone on bone for so long, where the bone actually spreads out. And the doctor said, "I'd heard about this in theory. I've never seen it on an actual human being." Where his knee, the bone had grown out so weird that his knees were moving at like odd angles. So they had to saw his tibia and move his knee down. So he's still bone on bone, but now he has a flat surface. And so they cut it and then screwed it into place.

• 7:15Joe Rogan?

  And then he just rode a stationary bike for like fucking five months, like a maniac, and then started running again. Bone on bone.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  Beautiful. Love it.

• 7:23Joe Rogan?

  It's crazy.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  He's wild, man.

• 7:25Joe Rogan?

  See if we can, see if we can find what the condition is.

• 7:29Speaker 03

  Says it's called Wolf's Law, biological principle stating that bones adapt and grow thicker and denser with physical stress. Is that?

• 7:36Joe Rogan?

  I think that's it, yeah. And his grew thicker and like, kind of mushroomed out.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:41Joe Rogan?

  At the top of the knee. Cause there's nothing there. There's no, and it's just bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.

• 7:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:48Joe Rogan?

  So it just kept growing out. And if you see, see, do we have the images of the surgery? I know I sent it to you a long ass time ago.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's showing a bunch of pictures from when he was on here.

• 7:58Joe Rogan?

  So, see that where he, the fingerprints on his shin? That's because he had so much edema on his leg that he could squeeze it and put his, that's after the surgery.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  Awesome.

• 8:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but look at the actual, yeah, look at that, the photo of what the knee looks like.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  That's not him.

• 8:13Joe Rogan?

  That's not him. Where's it?

• 8:15Speaker 03

  That's the, that's like an image of what it looked like.

• 8:17Joe Rogan?

  Okay, so they saw it and then they screw it down in place. They saw it slightly, you know, like a wedge off a piece of wood. And you lower it, level it out, and then screw it in place. This episode is brought to you by the mosquito bowl. Here's a story that's pretty incredible. After Pearl Harbor, four of the best college football players in America walk away from promising NFL careers to enlist in the Marines and fight in World War II. And the craziest part, it's a true story. These guys had their whole lives ahead of them, but traded the glory of the gridiron for the brutal reality of combat where the stakes were life and death.

• 8:58Joe Rogan?

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• 10:12Joe Rogan?

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• 11:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure. I have something similar. I've been bone on bone for probably two decades.

• 11:16Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 11:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:18Joe Rogan?

  All the cartilage is gone?

• 11:19Speaker 02

  Nothing. So when I went and got my surgery, doctor told me I have no, like, there's nothing there but bone. He said, Devon, maybe we can extend, maybe we can give you another couple of years on your, on your career, maybe.

• 11:33Joe Rogan?

  How long ago did he say this?

• 11:35Speaker 02

  That was like 15 years ago. I'm probably, no kidding, I probably pulled off my best show ever six weeks ago.

• 11:43Joe Rogan?

  Really? How old are you?

• 11:45Speaker 02

  I'm 51.

• 11:46Joe Rogan?

  That's amazing.

• 11:47Speaker 02

  And, and, and I have another shot at the world title. I'm still number one in the divisions, so, you know, I'm lucky, but I think it's all, it's, the doctors will say something, but it's just not true. You can, you can do anything.

• 12:02Joe Rogan?

  Well, Goggins is a perfect example of that, and I guess so are you. It's like, the idea that you can't do something is based on when most people quit.

• 12:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. Pain is an interesting thing to try and master, you know? It's, it's information and you have to be able to live with it and work with it, but it's, it's, it's good. It's good to have this pain because it's kind of a guide on where you need to get better. You know, the tendons and the tendonous structures of the elbow are super, super taxed in arm wrestling. And the process of rehabilitation and development of these structures under great duress and trauma is, is difficult and it requires a lot of time and monotony, which a lot of people aren't willing to put in.

• 12:51Joe Rogan?

  I'm shocked at how much time grip training takes.

• 12:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:55Joe Rogan?

  It takes forever. I've been trying to jack my, my, those grip strength things, the strongest I ever got to is 164. And I'm like, I want to get to 200. I feel like in my lifetime, I can get to 200. I can't get past 164. And the thing is like, I keep lifting weights with my arms, I keep, and I've always tired. So like every time I squeeze that thing, um, um, my hands are always sore. So I'm like, shit, I gotta take some time off to see if I can get it stronger. And so I'm doing all these wrist curls and I've got the forearm finisher from Golden Grip.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:28Joe Rogan?

  And I've got these big fat things that I use for, for cables to rotate wrists. And my hands got bigger, I'm definitely stronger, but it's like, I don't know when to lay off of it. Of when to, like, how many days a week do you do grip training?

• 13:43Speaker 02

  What's your guess?

• 13:45Joe Rogan?

  Every day.

• 13:45Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 13:46Joe Rogan?

  Every day.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  Every day.

• 13:47Joe Rogan?

  And is that the way to do it? Is that the smart way to do it?

• 13:50Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 13:51Joe Rogan?

  Cause I know you talked to a lot of those rock climber guys and they have the craziest grip strength.

• 13:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:57Speaker 02

  One of the things that I'll just say right away is a lot of people associate grip with arm wrestling. And 100%, it's, it's of massive importance. But the real technical nuance of the sport is to try and make the other person hold on to you.

• 14:12Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 14:13Speaker 02

  Right? So it's not necessary, grip is more like defense and added offense. But the first step is to try and tax the other person's grip. But.

• 14:23Joe Rogan?

  How do you do that?

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Uh, I think that everything, there's, we're opening up like technical arm wrestling. Okay.

• 14:30Joe Rogan?

  Open it up.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:31Joe Rogan?

  Go.

• 14:31Speaker 02

  Okay. So I think in, from my position, the opening move in arm wrestling is a concept called rising. Like, you know, the movie Over the Top?

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Okay, this is the opening step of the sport. And what it is, is basically an attempt to get a better grip. And if I can, the, the concept of making the other opponent hold on to you, that's the first step in technical supremacy. Okay, if you can make the other person hold on to you, if you can touch their fingers, if you can get their fingers activated and they're holding on to you, that's, they're, they're, they're less efficient.

• 15:10Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's about attacking weakness more than it is about going where you're strong.

• 15:14Joe Rogan?

  So they're the most efficient when it's palm to palm and everything's gripped nice and tight. And as soon as you get like out here.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  You want the pressure, uh, interaction to be unfair to your advantage.

• 15:26Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  Right, like if, if we were to arm wrestle, you would want to put the pressure in my fingertips, like with like, almost like a hammer type motion.

• 15:34Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:34Speaker 02

  Right, so you're basically, it's almost like a curl, it's, it's more complicated, but that's like the first way to start to think about it, like, people think about arm wrestling, they think about pinning each other.

• 15:44Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 15:44Speaker 02

  And this is, this is a very short sighted way to think about the sport. You, you think about pulling the match close to you. This, this concept of rising is this upwards, spinning, slipping motion where the end result is you have a better grip. And anything that they try and do, it's gonna go through the weakest system they have, which is their fingertips.

• 16:07Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 16:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it is great to have an awesome grip, really.

• 16:10Joe Rogan?

  But that's not everything.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  I, I, so, like proportionally in my workload, if I was doing 21 sets, 21 or, I think I do 21 working sets typically in my workouts, um, one of them is dedicated purely to grip.

• 16:24Joe Rogan?

  Every day?

• 16:26Speaker 02

  All day.

• 16:26Joe Rogan?

  All day, so you just do them throughout the day?

• 16:30Speaker 02

  I, I lead a very simple life at the moment.

• 16:33Joe Rogan?

  So, structure it, like how do you do it?

• 16:35Speaker 02

  Uh, my structure right now, and I think that I'm probably one of the most dedicated arm wrestlers in the world in time, in, in terms of like, what I do with my life and how much energy I give the sport, is, I, I base it off of a week. Okay, so, I train with the club probably twice a week. And that's changes, but typically I'm going twice a week and these are my hardest days. And I go in there and I just completely redline and max out in the sport, okay, all the, the, exactly what I gotta do, I'm doing at my highest, highest capacity.

• 17:13Speaker 02

  I have my family, we're all arm wrestlers, so my kid, I mean, he's a pro too.

• 17:19Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's competing this weekend.

• 17:21Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 17:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy. So we like, we have our own thing where we'll hit a, like, we'll train together. But really two hard sessions a week and then whatever I fit in with my kids. And then the rest of the days are like mindless, not, just the monotony level is extreme. My wife and I, I'm retired, right, so I have nothing but time.

• 17:47Speaker 02

  And I try to make, I just try and put everything into it. So like, it's all day, man. It's all day. I wake up and I'm training like all day.

• 17:59Joe Rogan?

  So these machines, like this is some of the shit that you have.

• 18:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:02Joe Rogan?

  Now, is this a machine that's specifically designed for arm wrestling? Did this exist or did you, did you help create this?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  This actually, machine is handed down from me, from the best female arm wrestler ever to exist, Leanne Dufresne, Johnny Roberts. So this is like a very standard arm wrestling equipment. It's basically an arm wrestling table with a cable system. And this is super old, okay? This, this table you're looking at here, that's like 40-year-old table. And it's still working, but yeah, you can buy pulley system on a table. And that's really, like, this is basically all I do. I work on, off of a table, different angles, different pressures that all just replicate the pressures in arm wrestling.

• 18:44Joe Rogan?

  So you have a fat grip, looks like a PVC tube, and then you're using that to work your fingertips and roll your wrists? And just get to be really strong at that position where you're turning someone's wrist over?

• 18:58Speaker 02

  We call that a multi-spinner. And what's interesting about it is you see it's a single-point attachment. So it's a little bit like Swiss ball for the wrist. So it's it's

• 19:08Joe Rogan?

  Swiss ball?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  You know, like a Swiss ball, like people do like squats on them, like the ball in the gym. People do like

• 19:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, like a boku ball? Is that what it's called?

• 19:17Speaker 02

  Boku is like a half, right?

• 19:18Joe Rogan?

  Oh, is that what it is?

• 19:19Speaker 02

  Swiss ball is like just the big round balls that

• 19:22Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, and you see people

• 19:24Joe Rogan?

  Like a yoga ball, whatever they they call them.

• 19:26Speaker 02

  Right. You ever jumped on a Swiss ball and done squats or anything?

• 19:29Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  Okay, well.

• 19:31Joe Rogan?

  I have the the half one that I do stuff on.

• 19:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, Swiss ball is way more unstable. So it's a similar concept where it's it's very unstable through the wrist. Uh, and there's different wraps, but there's like a few base moves in arm wrestling. Probably top rolling, hooking and pressing.

• 19:49Joe Rogan?

  And you just do shit like this all day?

• 19:51Speaker 02

  All day, and this is in my taper, okay? I know, it's crazy. Uh, that's the hardest part.

• 19:58Joe Rogan?

  This is in your what room?

• 19:59Speaker 02

  This is in my basement.

• 20:00Joe Rogan?

  Oh, your basement.

• 20:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and what you see here, this was actually my final workout. Um, before I pulled the Russian champion Vitaly Letan like six, seven weeks ago. Um, so I've tapered normally all these movements you see, I'm doing like a hundred repetitions. So lots of blood flow.

• 20:20Joe Rogan?

  And when you're doing a hundred repetitions, like what 50% max weight?

• 20:24Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:25Joe Rogan?

  What do you what do you weigh?

• 20:26Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 20:27Joe Rogan?

  Nothing, like 20 pounds, something like?

• 20:29Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:29Joe Rogan?

  Really? Is that the key?

• 20:33Speaker 02

  I'm a bit, I experiment a lot, okay? I've done so many different systems, but this is what I've come up with that I think is best. So I basically, it all revolves around these arm wrestling practice days. Where um, it's 100%, this is what I want my body to to maximize about. But the off days, the Tuesday, the Wednesday, the it's all day just doing blood flow. Just increasing the amount of blood that flows through the fascia, flows through these chains in in arm wrestling motions. And the hundred is all all I'm trying to do is increase my circulation. Especially through my connective structures and movement is so essential.

• 21:15Joe Rogan?

  Why that over, why is that more beneficial than like hard strength training? Like small reps, like low numbers of reps but high weight?

• 21:24Speaker 02

  So, super debatable, okay? And I've done all of it. What I've found is, in my opinion, you only have so much energy. And this is something we gotta really weigh in. Because if I could just smash, you know, heavy stuff all the time and take steps forward, I'd do it. But I've found that you don't want to detract from the thing that you're really, really trying to do. So, anything that takes away from your ability to do that, I think you should look at cutting. The best part of my training is on the table. So, anything that kinda messes with that, I don't wanna do it. I've done a lot of systems where I'm lifting heavy. But the thing is, is they take energy, they take resources. And what I really wanna do is prepare my body so I can do that specific task as good

• 22:09Speaker 02

  as possible. The high rep training heals me. It heals me. A lot of people are like, "Oh, that's a lot of work." And I'm like, "It's really not. It's just, it's a form of healing, almost."

• 22:22Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:23Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 22:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:24Joe Rogan?

  Just the blood flow and the consistent movement and high repetitions.

• 22:29Speaker 02

  Yes. It's, this is highly debated, okay? But I'm proving it over and over, over the years. I started doing, because arm wrestling's a strength sport. No doubt about it. So, right away, people think, "Oh, you know, heavyweight and, you know, high reps is dangerous because you're gonna become an endurance guy and it's gonna make you weaker." But when you go low, your work volume is tremendous. Okay? If you're doing lightweight all day long, I mean, the amount of total weight that you're lifting becomes astronomical. And I think that that adaptation over long periods is wonderful.

• 23:13Speaker 02

  And you can't get the blood flow through the connective structures without movement. So, this is, this is really why I do it. The healing aspects, the overall metabolic conditioning that you get.

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and the taper is a big part of it as well, you know. But yeah, I'm doing all my heavy lifting specifically in the sport. Like, I'm not, I'm not doing my heavy lifting at this time in my career. And also, I'm 51. And I'm plagued with injuries, so I have to be very specific. I have to be very precise. Yeah, this is the best formula I've come up with.

• 23:51Joe Rogan?

  And when you were younger, did you approach it differently?

• 23:53Speaker 02

  I have made so many mistakes.

• 23:55Joe Rogan?

  What was the initial approach? Just lift as heavy as you can?

• 23:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, lift as heavy as I can.

• 24:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, you're a giant dude already, right? So you already naturally have like big bones, big genetics. So did you power lift? Like, what did you, what'd you do initially?

• 24:10Speaker 02

  I was a judo guy, I was a basketball guy, I was a military guy. So I did a lot of different stuff. I was very cross-trained. I even, I even did Ironman for a bit.

• 24:25Joe Rogan?

  God, that's gotta be so hard for you.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:27Joe Rogan?

  All that weight?

• 24:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I would, when I say Ironman, apologies, not traditional, military Ironman.

• 24:35Joe Rogan?

  What's the difference?

• 24:36Speaker 02

  Military Ironman, you're doing it with a backpack, you're portaging a canoe, you're paddling, you're running with a backpack. So that race, you know, a winning time is, you know, probably anything under six hours, like five and a half to six hours. So it's long duration, but it's slightly heavier. So I'm still big, even for that. Like, most champions, most guys who win the Ironman are, you know, average size or even smaller. But, yeah, the size, I mean, I'm a bigger person. But, yeah, I did a lot of different sports, but I've always loved arm wrestling. It's always been the one I've come back to. It's, you know.

• 25:15Joe Rogan?

  What is it about it?

• 25:17Speaker 02

  I think that there's a lot of things about it. You know, for me personally, it was my first sport. Like, I started arm wrestling with my grandmother when I was like four years old.

• 25:25Joe Rogan?

  With your grandmother?

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:27Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 25:27Speaker 02

  Never underestimate the power of a grandmother. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I was a rowdy little kid and, you know, in a, with a German mother who didn't let me do too much crazy stuff around the house. And my grandmother used to come over and it was a reward system. She'd tell me to do chores and the result was I got to arm wrestle with her.

• 25:53Speaker 02

  I never beat her.

• 25:54Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 25:55Speaker 02

  I never beat her.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  It's funny. Her name was Levon.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  And the current super heavyweight world champion is Levon. So I've never beat either of them. Yeah, it's a bit trippy. Yeah, so I started, I started young. I, I love arm wrestling because it's, it's a very safe fight. Okay, like I, I, I love fighting. Everything in my life has been about fighting. And arm wrestling is one of those fight sports that has super low cost. Like, we don't punch each other in the head. I'll be able to walk. Nothing on my spine. My elbows don't straighten. You know, so it's low cost. You can do it your whole life. Like, we have, we've had world champions in the open division who are almost 70.

• 26:48Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 26:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:50Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's cool, right?

• 26:52Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible.

• 26:52Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 26:53Joe Rogan?

  How's that possible?

• 26:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, it, the hand is weird. Like, this thing here is designed for volume and it just slowly builds. You know, the hand is, the structure is, has so much connective tissues in it. So much tendon. And that's just, it takes so long to build. You know, age is an advantage in a lot of ways because you just have more time to get further in arm wrestling. Yeah, I'm 51. I'm telling you, I, I probably competed at the highest level and I, I believe I can still go further. It's non-typical, you know, it's non-typical. And I, the, the thing that I love most about it, the very most, is, is the family and the bonds.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Arm wrestling clubs are special places. It's very blue collar. Open doors, man. There's, there's not a lot of money associated with the sport in terms of membership fees. And we, we arm wrestle in each other's garages and houses and... Um, and it breeds a very tight family. Like, I consider the club that I train with, like, they're my family. Like, so, um, that's my fa- I mean, that's what sports all about. You know?

• 28:03Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, and arm wrestling is very conducive to that.

• 28:07Joe Rogan?

  So when you say it's non-typical that you could compete at this level, th- at this age, what, what, how old are, like, most of the top guys?

• 28:16Speaker 02

  I'd say that you hit your probably peak typically when you are low 30s. So, very standard, you know? Oh, that's my buddy Porkchop. Oh, there's Crazy George. This is the guy, okay? So this guy-

• 28:30Joe Rogan?

  Which one's Crazy George?

• 28:30Speaker 02

  The dude who's down there, uh, not the guy on the green shirt. So, these are both my good buddies.

• 28:35Joe Rogan?

  And this is the guy who can't straighten his arms out?

• 28:37Speaker 02

  Uh, he can't, no. He's super locked up, okay? But, so he's doing this move called a King's Move, or Outside Top Roll. And you see Porkchop's wrist is bent back? I, I love Porky. I train with Porky twice a week. Um, but, yeah, Crazy George, and Crazy George is like 160 pounds. And Pork-

• 28:57Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 28:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Porky's like 230, completely tremendously jacked and strong. Yeah, and Porkchop is like a professional arm wrestler pulling at East versus West, okay? That's our highest league. And Crazy George is...

• 29:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:11Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible.

• 29:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's completely incredible. Uh, yeah. There's another guy from our club, Matt Smith, against Crazy George. I think Matt actually may have beaten him here. This is actually the time period of Crazy George's downfall, okay? So-

• 29:26Joe Rogan?

  How old is Crazy George in this film?

• 29:28Speaker 02

  He'd probably be late 60s here, okay?

• 29:31Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's an absolute legend to me in sport. Like, technically, so this guy, he spent the first, like, 20 years in the sport, two up, two down, okay? Go to tournament, double elimination, he's, and that's the Canadian champ. These guys are all champions that you see him arm wrestling with. And he invented, basically, he didn't invent it, but there were very few people doing this style of arm wrestling, okay? We call it an Outside Top Roll, or a King's Move. And he really figured it out, and, um, very difficult, very difficult to deal with.

• 30:07Joe Rogan?

  And what is he doing? He's dropping down and lowering his body weight?

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, there's many kind of main strengths in arm wrestling, okay? There's- Rising strength, there's pronational strength, there's cupping strength. And this pronational, you see this like, this is like my favorite example.

• 30:30Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ, look at that thing, that's so weird.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:32Joe Rogan?

  Show that, show that, look at that, who the fuck has that muscle?

• 30:35Speaker 02

  Right, arm wrestlers.

• 30:36Joe Rogan?

  That muscle's so weird.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Right, so that.

• 30:38Joe Rogan?

  I don't even think I have that, where is that?

• 30:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right there.

• 30:41Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 30:43Speaker 02

  Right.

• 30:43Joe Rogan?

  That's, mine is non-existent.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  I was gonna interrupt, I saw it on this thumbnail, I was gonna say, what is that?

• 30:50Joe Rogan?

  That's fucking crazy.

• 30:52Speaker 02

  It's one of my dreams to have bodybuilders, when they're, you know, IFBB, just to be doing pronator poses, one day, one day. It's the.

• 31:01Joe Rogan?

  I don't even have that.

• 31:02Speaker 02

  You gotta first turn, turn your thumb down.

• 31:04Joe Rogan?

  Like that?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, and pop your wrist back, there it is, see it?

• 31:08Joe Rogan?

  Where?

• 31:08Speaker 02

  There it is, yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go.

• 31:10Joe Rogan?

  This little, look at my little bitch ass.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  That's the one.

• 31:12Joe Rogan?

  Fucking little bitch ass muscle. God, that's hilarious, that's gigantic.

• 31:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, like, different styles in arm wrestling, okay, like, they have different roots. Okay, and the King's move, top rolling in general, outside top rolling, is super dependent on pronation.

• 31:33Joe Rogan?

  So it's all this?

• 31:34Speaker 02

  Twisting, yeah, twisting, yeah, it's, it's, it's weaponized, right? We get really strong, and, and there's a relationship between all the angles in the hand. The hand is very complex, right? All sorts of stuff it can do, and the main two drivers, cupping, we call it, flexion, and pronation. And these two interact, so when one pronates, it attacks the other one's cup. So there's a relationship between them. So Crazy George is like, the master of pronational styles. King's move is pronation style. I, over the course of my career, changed techniques, changed techniques.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  Probably my best technique is an open top roll, or a King's move now. Yeah, and, and I learned a lot. It's like, the guy that, one of my first coaches, a guy called Troy Eaton. He could never beat George. He couldn't beat George. We tried, we tried, we tried for years to figure him out. So, and that was back when I was like 20. Right, so I've been, I've been studying this style for 30 years. Uh, and yeah, it's, it's a combination of locks and giveaways and balancing. Arm wrestling things happen really quickly, very, very quickly. But it's a balancing act of, of all these different strengths.

• 32:57Joe Rogan?

  So what is it about you that's able to keep competing at a very high level into your 50s?

• 33:03Speaker 02

  I think, uh-

• 33:04Joe Rogan?

  Is it this approach where you're just doing all these reps all day long? Do you think that's a big part of it?

• 33:09Speaker 02

  Huge.

• 33:10Joe Rogan?

  Huge?

• 33:11Speaker 02

  Huge part of it.

• 33:12Joe Rogan?

  Because you're constantly forcing your muscles to work, you're constantly getting blood flow, and you're not losing any strength?

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:18Joe Rogan?

  As you get older?

• 33:19Speaker 02

  It's a huge part of it. Yeah, the, the, my, my work volume probably exceeds most people in, in the sport with that. So metabolically and from a health perspective, it keeps my tendons and ligaments really functional. Um, and you know, I'm, I'm just, I'm just a very simple and obsessed person and I just, I, I arm wrestle at every opportunity.

• 33:41Joe Rogan?

  Don't you also have some very freaky genetics? Like, didn't Ryan-

• 33:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what is his last name?

• 33:46Speaker 02

  Rossner.

• 33:47Joe Rogan?

  Rossner.

• 33:48Speaker 02

  This guy's the best.

• 33:49Joe Rogan?

  Very interesting guy.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Smartest person I know.

• 33:51Joe Rogan?

  Geneticist, and, uh, he was explaining to me how unusual your genes are.

• 33:58Speaker 02

  We all have unusual genes.

• 34:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but you have really unusual genes.

• 34:03Speaker 02

  Uh, well, there, that's, that topic is so big, you know, the genetic, uh, piece. I think that, what a massive piece going forward for our species, you know? Um, the mastery of genetics, uh, it's right at the top, I think, of our highest priorities, you know?

• 34:23Joe Rogan?

  There was a thing that they were talking about last night in the green room. See if you could find this. They think they might have figured out a way to end Down Syndrome.

• 34:33Joe Rogan?

  They think they might have figured out a way with genetic engineering with CRISPR or whatever they're using, whatever modalities they're using to end Down syndrome.

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 34:41Joe Rogan?

  Which is wild.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  I think that there's so many answers with genetics, you know, from, I personally believe that, and you know, this is a big topic with freedom and everything like that, but I, I really believe that when you're born, you should be swabbed and it should accompany your health, you know, card or whatever and just as a information, you know, there's so much.

• 35:03Joe Rogan?

  Well, it probably will be in the future as these, all these techniques and all this new stuff comes out. CRISPR takes a bold leap towards silencing Down syndrome's extra-chromosome. Wow. So scientists have taken an important step towards a gene therapy that could one day turn off the genetic material that causes Down syndrome. Down syndrome is a genetic condition caused by an extra-chromosome, 21, and consequently hundreds of triplicate genes that lead to developmental and neurological issues, according to Washington-based National Down Syndrome Society. One in every 640 babies in the United States is born with Down syndrome that makes it the most common chromosomal condition. So there, so what is it doing

• 35:46Joe Rogan?

  here? Okay, so Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center and Harvard Medical School found a way to silence much of the extra-chromosome's activity in the cell at once. Details of their research are published in a paper in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. Wow. So what is weird about your genes, though? Ryan told me, but I don't remember. He was, he goes, you gotta talk to them about your genes.

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Well, Ryan's actually got to talk to. I mean, I'm a high school educated guy and I, I've been down to Austin several times to hang out with Ryan. I, I absorb everything I can from this guy. But I think that my genetics, I think I'm predisposed to.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Endurance, actually.

• 36:30Joe Rogan?

  Endurance?

• 36:30Speaker 02

  I think so. I think if you take an overall look at my genetics, I think I have a lot of, you know, favorable mutations that are, you know, predispose me to, to good, but it's weird. I don't know, man. Listen, the genetic side of things, I'll sound silly if I try and talk too much about it. I'll just tell you that there are favorable genetics for sure. You know, there's favorable mutations. And it's amazing, you know, if you could capture all of them from everybody and, you know, put it together and you never know what.

• 37:07Joe Rogan?

  You'd get Brian Shaw.

• 37:08Speaker 02

  We've scanned Brian.

• 37:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 02

  That's the thing. So this, this, this project that Ryan is doing, and I like to help him out a little bit, we've been, we've been looking at elite performers and with the goal to find favorable mutations. And yeah, we scanned Brian.

• 37:29Joe Rogan?

  He's in the Bible.

• 37:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:31Joe Rogan?

  That guy's in the Bible. He's like, you know, David and Goliath.

• 37:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:35Joe Rogan?

  That's, there are real people out there like that.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, Brian's.

• 37:38Joe Rogan?

  So his genetics are one out of every 500 million people? Isn't it something crazy along those lines?

• 37:45Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's, he's completely a, he's, he's right at the peak of human performance, right from a genetics standpoint.

• 37:54Joe Rogan?

  Just freakish. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Believe it or not, the holiday season is here again, and that means you might need to fill some seasonal roles, fast. Maybe you need extra cashiers or stockers, or maybe something more unique, like a lead elf, or an expert gift wrapper, or a Zamboni driver. Whoever you're looking for, whatever skills you need to power through the rest of the year, ZipRecruiter is one of the best places to start your search. Because you can try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. And because ZipRecruiter helps sort through thousands of resumes and applications, showing you the most qualified and interesting ones first.

• 38:38Joe Rogan?

  There's even an option for candidates to explain why they want the job. Let ZipRecruiter find the right people for your roles, seasonal or otherwise. Try it for free today at ziprecruiter.com/rogan. That's ziprecruiter.com/rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners?

• 39:22Joe Rogan?

  Healthy alternatives exist, and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs, and my dogs love it. Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously.

• 40:02Joe Rogan?

  So try The Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Bone density, everything.

• 40:19Speaker 02

  Everything. And it's not just his bone density, the dude's mindset. Like, there's many pieces of Brian's genetics that make him a champion. But yeah, he has some stuff in him that Ryan's never seen. Yeah, no, nobody, no, he has. And I probably shouldn't be speaking about other people's medical stuff, but I love Brian and he can sue me if he wants. Nobody has his growth hormone. He has a different type of growth hormone.

• 40:48Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean?

• 40:48Speaker 02

  I don't think it's the same.

• 40:50Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 40:50Speaker 02

  I don't think he has this. We're opening something so cool because you talked about the Down Syndrome, and there's some very interesting stuff with that. But Yeah, Brian, I don't believe that Brian's growth hormone is the same as yours and mine.

• 41:06Joe Rogan?

  What does that mean?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  It might be molecularly different, or it might have, you're gonna have to talk to Ryan.

• 41:13Joe Rogan?

  His growth hormone is different, is it a different kind of growth hormone?

• 41:17Speaker 02

  He has a mutation in his growth hormone.

• 41:20Joe Rogan?

  Well, that makes sense.

• 41:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, it does.

• 41:21Joe Rogan?

  I mean, he's almost seven feet tall and he's 400 pounds.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he, and he doesn't stop. He doesn't stop. But it's weird, the, the whole like Down's Syndrome thing, they can do stop codes, like some genes, like some mutations that you get, from what I understand, there's like a stop code on a gene. So whatever your gene is, when the, I guess, mRNA lands on it and starts to do its thing, like, there can be a stop code or something that just stops that gene from expressing. And I think that that's likely what they, they do with that, they'd somehow insert a stop code. But, I mean, there's people out there who have like world records, like for things like deadlift, that don't have fast twitch muscle according to their genetics. So it's really weird.

• 42:07Joe Rogan?

  What do you mean, they don't have fast twitch muscle?

• 42:08Speaker 02

  Like, they have a stop code on their fast twitch genetics.

• 42:12Joe Rogan?

  Just naturally?

• 42:13Speaker 02

  Doesn't make any sense at all.

• 42:14Joe Rogan?

  They're just born weird.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Born super weird, yet they're capable of beating world records on the deadlift, so...

• 42:20Joe Rogan?

  Wouldn't you think that deadlift is a fast twitch thing?

• 42:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:23Joe Rogan?

  So I don't understand.

• 42:24Speaker 02

  I don't either. It's an amazing field, genetics is an amazing field.

• 42:30Joe Rogan?

  Is that a lack of understanding of what fast twitch do? Or is it, they can compensate with the other muscles in some way?

• 42:38Speaker 02

  I don't think it's other muscles, cuz I think that it would probably apply to all the musculature. So, there's something that we don't understand, there's something weird going on. Eddie, you can sue me. Eddie Hall, I love you, I love you.

• 42:54Speaker 02

  Eddie's got a stop code.

• 42:56Joe Rogan?

  In his genes.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  On fast twitch muscle. Makes no sense.

• 42:59Joe Rogan?

  Well, that doesn't make any sense.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  Makes no sense.

• 43:00Joe Rogan?

  He moves so fast.

• 43:01Speaker 02

  I know.

• 43:02Joe Rogan?

  And he hits so fucking hard. That's crazy.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  It's crazy.

• 43:05Joe Rogan?

  How is that possible?

• 43:06Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 43:07Joe Rogan?

  I've seen that guy hit mitts and you're like, Jesus Christ.

• 43:09Speaker 02

  I know.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Is this what the Hercules gene?

• 43:12Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no.

• 43:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's myostatin. That's myostatin inhibitors.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:17Joe Rogan?

  So it regulates the production of myostatin, a protein that stops muscles from growing too large. So with myostatin inhibitors, they've done that with, I'm sure you've seen those whippets?

• 43:27Speaker 02

  Yes, of course.

• 43:28Joe Rogan?

  So whippets are a weird dog. It's a very skinny, fast dog. And some whippets are born with this genetic mutation. It's a myostatin inhibitor and they look like the Hulk. It's the cra- show an image of that, please. It is the craziest. It doesn't look like a real dog.

• 43:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:45Joe Rogan?

  That doesn't look like a real dog. That's a crazy bodybuilder dog. Because if you see a regular whippet, show me a regular whippet now, please.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:54Joe Rogan?

  Regular whippets, that's a, yeah, look, look at a regular whippet, like a real fast, like, almost like a greyhound looking dog. And then you see the ones with the myostatin inhibitor gene and you're like, what the hell is going on? They look like, like the most freakish bodybuilder of all time, but in a dog form. And some humans have that.

• 44:14Speaker 02

  Belgian Blues also, the Belgian, uh...

• 44:16Joe Rogan?

  The cows, yes, yeah.

• 44:18Speaker 02

  And they have it too.

• 44:18Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:19Speaker 02

  So they offer already genetic, genetic therapy that gives you folostatin. So there's a balance between folostatin and myostatin. From what I understand, like, the key that turns on the cell for, for growth

• 44:35Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 44:36Speaker 02

  is, um, is folostatin. And myostatin tells the cell to stop growing. You're big enough.

• 44:43Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  Important, very important.

• 44:45Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 44:46Speaker 02

  And so if you don't have myostatin, all that that turnkey gets is folostatin. So the only thing, signal that you're ever getting with a myostatin deficiency is folostatin. And so, yeah, so they offer a genetic therapy that increases your folostatin.

• 45:02Joe Rogan?

  They offer it to who?

• 45:06Speaker 02

  Anybody, anybody.

• 45:08Joe Rogan?

  Jay B's ready to get jacked.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Anybody with enough money. Rhymes with peptide. Yeah, yeah, there's, there's a bunch of genetic therapies that they've already created. Folostatin is one of them.

• 45:16Joe Rogan?

  And so that would be for powerlifters or football players or someone who just wanted to get fucking huge?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  I think initially it was created for longevity. Because as you age, your folostatin drops and that's why people get smaller, they shrink as they get older.

• 45:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 45:33Speaker 02

  And folostatin just helps you maintain.

• 45:36Joe Rogan?

  Muscle mass.

• 45:37Speaker 02

  Yes, so it's, it's, I think it's mostly promoted as an anti-aging remedy, but absolutely. Like you want to get your performance up, yeah, increase.

• 45:47Joe Rogan?

  They're doing so many wild things now. They've got this new therapy now for people with disc degeneration. I'm sure you have it, I have it, a lot of people have it, especially anybody who does jiu-jitsu has it. Your, your discs just get worn out from getting cranked on and like heavy lifters always have it, lower back issues. Your, the disc is the soft cushion in between the spinal columns and those, those big bones push down that disc and over time and all that compression, it squashes. But now they've got stuff that they can inject into the disc that inflates the discs.

• 46:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:21Joe Rogan?

  And so all these people that have been getting artificial discs and fusions and all the problems that come with that, because there's massive problems, they're going to be able to eliminate that, which is amazing.

• 46:33Speaker 02

  Super cool.

• 46:34Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so super cool. And I tell everybody, if you could avoid back surgery, please avoid back surgery. Don't fucking do it, there's a lot of different, like, I always tell everybody and I'll tell everybody again, Louis Simmons, his invention, that, that invention, the reverse hyper.

• 46:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 46:50Joe Rogan?

  Fucking incredible. One of the greatest invention ever for people with lower back problems. I have one here in the studio, I have one at my house. I fucking swear by that machine. It's so good, it decompresses the spine on the, on the decel and on the uplift, when you're lifting up the weights, it, it strengthens the muscles out. It's like a perfect exercise for lower back issues.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's wild when we look at the future in terms of performance and how far the age is being pushed. Like, we see Crazy George, but. I think, I, I, I'm optimistic that all the ages are just gonna be pushed and pushed until you're probably maybe not gonna be a champion until you're 60.

• 47:32Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 47:33Speaker 02

  Right?

• 47:33Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. Well, that's for arm wrestling.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  Well-

• 47:36Joe Rogan?

  I wonder what's gonna happen with, well, the thing with, with regular sports, the stuff that's pushing this stuff is performance enhancing drugs. You know, peptides, stem cells, not really, that's not really a performance enhancing drug, but for injuries, but testosterone, all the, all these different steroids, all these different things. The thing about like combat sports in particular is that you can't use those things. They're not allowed. But when you can use them, you see these older athletes that have the mind of an older athlete, but the body that works like a young guy.

• 48:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 48:09Joe Rogan?

  My favorite example of that is Vitor Belfort when he was in his prime.

• 48:12Speaker 02

  TRT Belfort.

• 48:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. TRT, Vitor was the scariest fucking guy ever.

• 48:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:18Joe Rogan?

  Because he was jacked up with testosterone, but he was also 37 years old with a lifetime of combat sport experience, lifetime of intelligence, but hadn't lost any speed, hadn't lost any strength, and in fact, had like superhuman speed and strength. Because he was juicy, super juicy.

• 48:35Speaker 02

  But, yeah.

• 48:36Joe Rogan?

  But it makes you think like, man, what would the sport look like if that was open to everybody?

• 48:41Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. Interesting.

• 48:45Joe Rogan?

  It is interesting because there's a lot of guys that want to keep competing, but their body just doesn't respond the way it used to, to training, because they're 37 or 38 or 39 or-

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 48:56Joe Rogan?

  But if you could get them on the sauce.

• 48:57Speaker 02

  Yeah. Right. Where's the limit?

• 48:59Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  Right.

• 49:01Joe Rogan?

  And why not let them?

• 49:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Why not? You know, I, I, I'm a big believer in tested sport, you know? I think that that's wonderful. Uh, and I think that that'll never go away, and I think it's, it's important, but I, I'm also a believer in open up the gates and let everybody play.

• 49:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's why I really love this whole idea of doing the enhanced games. It didn't really pan out the way everybody hoped. Nobody really won any records other than the one guy in the swimming, but he wore a prohibited suit that lets you swim quicker, apparently. I don't understand swimming.

• 49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:32Joe Rogan?

  But I was hoping like you were gonna see some freakish, superhuman performances. But I feel like if that's gonna happen, that's gonna take years. I don't think you would get the kind of gains that these people are hoping to get to achieve like world records, super freak human performance. Unless you're doing that stuff for a lo- like, you know as well as anybody, that training takes forever. Takes to build strength, to build speed, to build endurance, takes a long ass time. You think you're gonna get strength in three months, like, you get a little stronger.

• 50:04Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 50:04Joe Rogan?

  But you're not gonna get freakish strength for fucking years. It takes years.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Years. Decades.

• 50:11Joe Rogan?

  Like Jiji Mufu, like, how long has that guy been lifting weights? That guy's a fucking freak.

• 50:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, you can't build this stuff overnight.

• 50:18Joe Rogan?

  And I bet he would melt a piss cup.

• 50:22Speaker 02

  Listen, I, I think that-

• 50:23Joe Rogan?

  Not a chance.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Jiji, Jiji, look at so many, look at myself included, you know, I, I care about performance. This is, this is what, what I care about, and so many people fall into the same boat.

• 50:34Joe Rogan?

  Look at that guy. Damn, chance to hell that dude's natural.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  You know, I'll tell ya, uh, Jiji is probably-

• 50:40Joe Rogan?

  That is amazing though that he can do that. That kind of flexibility with that kind of mass is, look at that. While overhead pressing, a full side squat, a side split, that's nuts, on chairs, Jean Claude Van Damme style.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Jiji started out tricking, okay?

• 50:56Joe Rogan?

  What's that mean?

• 50:57Speaker 02

  Uh, like, it's a form of-

• 50:59Joe Rogan?

  That sounds like-

• 51:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so he actually started off-

• 51:04Joe Rogan?

  Sounds like he's picking up guys.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, no, no, Jiji is super cool. Uh, it's like flipping-

• 51:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, he was on America's Got Talent?

• 51:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. It's like a form of, uh, like acrobatics or gymnastics.

• 51:17Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 51:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:18Joe Rogan?

  Well, I've seen him do acrobatic stuff and it's really nuts.

• 51:21Speaker 02

  Right.

• 51:21Joe Rogan?

  Like, his physical ability, like, it defies what you expect from a guy with that kind of mass.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  Right. Yeah. So he's a com- combined, like, almost gymnast and bodybuilder. And he's probably better now than ever. And he's, I mean, I think Jiji's in his 40s.

• 51:39Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. And, uh, yeah, he's massive and healthy and, you know, absolutely kicking ass, probably the most positive human being that I've met.

• 51:49Joe Rogan?

  He seems super positive in his YouTube videos.

• 51:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:53Joe Rogan?

  And we have snorted his fucking smelling salts like-

• 51:55Speaker 02

  It's strong.

• 51:56Joe Rogan?

  He's got the best stuff.

• 51:57Speaker 02

  He does.

• 51:57Joe Rogan?

  We've snorted his stuff about a hundred times on this show.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, actually.

• 52:02Joe Rogan?

  Look at him doing flips.

• 52:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:04Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy that a guy with that kind of mass can move like that.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Juji is actually the inspiration for this modern, uh, this, this latest way that I'm training. It was actually.

• 52:16Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 52:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Juji came up to my place, uh, probably about a year and a half ago. And we were just redlining in our two-hand work, okay? And it was so good.

• 52:27Joe Rogan?

  Two-hand work?

• 52:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, okay, so I would be considered like the senior guy in, in my club. Okay, so, and we have this kind of rule in the, in the club just to make things work properly. Senior holds, junior works. Okay, so, so the senior is kind of staying with you, floating with you. And the junior is able to control their intensity. So the guy who would normally win the match doesn't win.

• 52:54Joe Rogan?

  He just holding him in place.

• 52:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:56Joe Rogan?

  Okay, right, like defense work in jujitsu.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 52:58Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  Okay, but just to help out, that, that guy typically, um, will do two-arm work. Okay, to kind of flip the script for him. So somebody can hold, like me, with two arms and kind of let me get to redline.

• 53:13Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Juji and I were doing that like a year and a half ago. And it was so good and it was so much fun. I was like, what am I doing, you know, having anything kind of cut into this? And that's when I stopped doing heavy lifting. It was, it was as a result of training with Juji.

• 53:31Joe Rogan?

  So this two-arm work of just holding and just work on that, you feel is more important than all the lifting and all the other stuff?

• 53:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:39Joe Rogan?

  Cause it's sport-specific?

• 53:40Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 53:41Joe Rogan?

  And does he arm wrestle?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  He does, a little bit. Juji does everything.

• 53:45Joe Rogan?

  But why did it, you working with him make you train differently?

• 53:50Speaker 02

  Juji's a special guy. Um, I think that just, you don't have to be the best in your field. If you have a certain energy or certain thing with you. Juji is a wonderful, creative, hard-working guy. And when you get a chance to train with him, it doesn't matter that his skill level. It's just his level of energy is so good that when we work together, it, it helps me. Um, I don't know, he, I don't know how it happened, but he unlocked this. Understanding of the priority of that training for me. I've always done it, but never.

• 54:23Joe Rogan?

  How did he unlock it? I'm not getting it.

• 54:25Speaker 02

  I think that our training session, uh, I, okay, so what happened was Juju came over. And I normally, on days that I do table work, I do not hit the gym. Okay, because I don't want anything to kind of impact my, my, my table work. And because I only had a day with Juju, I wanted to show him how I was training. And at the time, I was training very heavy. I was training very heavy, so we did this circuit. I showed him all my latest exercises that I was prioritizing. And then we went to the club that night. And we had this awesome two-arm work, but I felt as though, you know, the singles and everything that I'd done earlier in the day had a slight effect and I was like, I can't ever let that happen again.

• 55:07Speaker 02

  I, I need to put, make sure I put all my energy into this table, table training. And it's funny, you know, being 51 and having over 30 years competitively in the sport, I still feel like I learn, you know, I still feel like I change things from, from event to event.

• 55:23Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 55:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's a sign you're doing something fun.

• 55:26Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, that's the key.

• 55:27Joe Rogan?

  Continue to get better at it and continue to grow at it.

• 55:30Speaker 02

  Key to life.

• 55:31Joe Rogan?

  So just the one training session with him changed your perspective on that? Because you just weren't performing as well?

• 55:38Speaker 02

  That was a tipping point. That was a tipping point for me. So I generally have a protocol, like a training kind of balance, a recipe, that I'm gonna follow pretty much from event to event.

• 55:51Joe Rogan?

  And this is all made by you?

• 55:52Speaker 02

  Is made by me, um, and I, I watch everything, you know. I, I love arm wrestling, but I'm looking at sports. I'm always trying to get better. Um, so yeah, it's my protocol that I come up with. And then I'll tweak it based off of my results. Okay, so if I'm doing good, not much changes. If, if, uh, if I don't do as good as I think I should do, or there's like something, I'll tweak it from event to event. And yeah, and that night was the night that I decided I need to get rid of heavyweights because this is so good. This training is so good when done properly. And that's the key, when done properly. Like two-arm work can suck. Like if you do two-arm work wrong, it can hurt you, it can set you back.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  But when done properly, it's the best training that there can be.

• 56:39Joe Rogan?

  Specifically for arm wrestling?

• 56:41Speaker 02

  Super specific.

• 56:42Joe Rogan?

  And do you do stuff that's not specific for arm wrestling, just for overall body strength? Like, do you feel like there's a balance to be achieved?

• 56:49Speaker 02

  This is the greatest criticism that I always receive as an athlete, is because I don't really.

• 56:59Joe Rogan?

  Just arm wrestling stuff?

• 57:00Speaker 02

  I go for walks.

• 57:01Joe Rogan?

  That's it?

• 57:02Speaker 02

  I'm terrible.

• 57:03Joe Rogan?

  Really? No lunges, no leg curls?

• 57:06Speaker 02

  I'm trying a little bit to work it back in in some minimal way. But it's interesting, you know, cross-training versus specialization. I have a long background in very broad training, okay? Like, I once upon a time was a fit human being in many aspects, but I really care about being a champ, you know? And I could probably be a healthier guy and be able to run and squat and deadlift, or I can be a little bit of a cripple and be pulling for world title shots, is the way I kind of look at it, and I chose that.

• 57:45Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 57:46Speaker 02

  I should do more squats.

• 57:47Joe Rogan?

  Well, my only thought would be that if you conditioned and strengthened your overall body, it would just help your overall strength.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:56Joe Rogan?

  I mean, that is the thought about deadlifting and squatting, is that it helps everything.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 58:01Joe Rogan?

  Because your whole body just becomes stronger. And it would just nat- like naturally, like your base, everything, your core, everything would just be much more, your foundation would be stronger.

• 58:14Speaker 02

  I hear ya.

• 58:15Joe Rogan?

  But I don't know.

• 58:16Speaker 02

  I hear you, no, not-

• 58:17Joe Rogan?

  Obviously, I'm not an arm wrestler.

• 58:18Speaker 02

  I don't know either, okay? Everything, I'm playing with everything. This is constantly what pretty much every reasonable person tells me. And I just am like, I get to a point where I do my arm wrestling work, and I'm like, okay, here I am, if I want to beat Levon, what do I do from here? And I just am like, more wrist curls.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  You know, uh, look at my-

• 58:42Joe Rogan?

  What does he do?

• 58:42Speaker 02

  Uh, he's a bit more balanced than me. He, he, Levon lifts super heavy weights, uh, like stupid.

• 58:49Joe Rogan?

  What does this dude looks like? Show me, show me Levon. What is his last name?

• 58:54Speaker 02

  Saginaw Philly.

• 58:55Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 58:55Speaker 02

  This is the pinnacle of our sport. Okay, this is the guy.

• 58:59Joe Rogan?

  How big is this dude?

• 59:00Speaker 02

  He gets about 420. Yeah.

• 59:04Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god!

• 59:05Speaker 02

  I love this guy.

• 59:06Joe Rogan?

  Look at the size of this motherfucker!

• 59:07Speaker 02

  This, this is-

• 59:08Joe Rogan?

  Holy shit!

• 59:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:10Joe Rogan?

  That can't be real. Is that AI? Is that picture AI?

• 59:12Speaker 02

  No.

• 59:13Joe Rogan?

  That one right there.

• 59:14Speaker 02

  That's real.

• 59:14Joe Rogan?

  Oh my-

• 59:16Speaker 02

  This is real. This is real.

• 59:17Joe Rogan?

  I don't know Jamie, that might be real. He might just be pumped.

• 59:20Speaker 02

  Levon is the pinnacle, okay? We scanned him too. And surprise, he's a weirdo also.

• 59:27Joe Rogan?

  Oh yeah, duh.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 59:29Joe Rogan?

  Look at the size of that motherfucker.

• 59:31Speaker 02

  He's in Little Rock in two days.

• 59:33Joe Rogan?

  In Little Rock, Arkansas?

• 59:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:35Joe Rogan?

  Where's he live right now?

• 59:36Speaker 02

  Georgia.

• 59:37Joe Rogan?

  Georgia the country.

• 59:38Speaker 02

  There's so many weirdos that come from Georgia.

• 59:41Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 59:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, proportionately their strength is, is not normal. Jo- Levon is, uh, he hasn't, nobody has beat this guy since 2017. He has absolutely flattened the field, okay? Like-

• 59:55Joe Rogan?

  He's so hairy too.

• 59:56Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 59:57Joe Rogan?

  He, he looks like a primitive man. He looks like a science project. Look at the fucking size of that guy! Oh my god!

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  Smart guy.

• 1:00:06Joe Rogan?

  I bet.

• 1:00:07Speaker 02

  Very cool guy. Um, I, I absolutely love Levon. Um, he has beaten the piss out of me at every opportunity.

• 1:00:15Joe Rogan?

  But he's so big dude.

• 1:00:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, he is. He is so big and, uh, and he's so good. He's, like, he grew up in the trenches arm wrestling, okay? He didn't, he's not one of these guys who came in, uh, you know, he, he made his way through the world championships. Yeah, he hasn't lost in 10 years.

• 1:00:33Joe Rogan?

  And so he, does he do different stuff than you do?

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  He does. Um, a lot of the guys have different formulas, okay? Levon does a lot of pull-ups, really heavy ones. And he does a lot of really heavy curls. This is the base, but he does all the same, like, we do all the same exercises. Just different, different formulas, um-

• 1:00:55Joe Rogan?

  Now, when you hear the best guy is doing things different than you.

• 1:01:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Joe Rogan?

  What keeps you from doing what he does?

• 1:01:04Speaker 02

  So, we are all different.

• 1:01:06Joe Rogan?

  Right? That's what he used to look like? That's crazy. Shout out to steroids.

• 1:01:13Joe Rogan?

  Shout out. Shout out to all the scientists out there.

• 1:01:16Speaker 02

  He's very young in that first photo.

• 1:01:18Joe Rogan?

  Of course.

• 1:01:18Speaker 02

  You know, he slowly evolved through the world championships to what he is today.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's interesting when you see different champions, and I try and learn from everybody. I watch what everybody does, I see what they're doing. You have to also consider where your body's at, okay? I can't do the things I did when I was 25.

• 1:01:42Joe Rogan?

  Physically?

• 1:01:43Speaker 02

  I just can't. I have, like I said, I've had surgeries.

• 1:01:48Joe Rogan?

  But yet, you can still arm wrestle.

• 1:01:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:51Joe Rogan?

  So, obviously, you're very strong in these particular areas, and it's not holding you back at all. So, what is holding you back? When you say injuries.

• 1:02:01Speaker 02

  Well, arm wrestling is a big thing, okay? There's several things that you can kind of choose to focus on.

• 1:02:10Speaker 02

  Probably my biggest limiting factor is my elbow. Because I've had multiple surgeries on it, I burn it out. Like, at the beginning of my career, I was more of a hook-style arm wrestler. That's where, like, the primary kind of drive in the sport is the flexion of the wrist, and you're moving forward with your shoulder, and you're kind of trying to attack the person's arm more. But over time, my elbow's got broke down to the point where, you know, I just don't have a lot of stability. Now, I continue to work on it, and quite honestly, my hooking now, this stability is probably pretty good.

• 1:02:47Speaker 02

  I think that we do, we all as athletes do the best thing we think we can. And I think that the work that I do is very precise. Like, the way Levon trains, and please, I don't like to criticize Levon, he's the best, okay?

• 1:03:08Speaker 02

  But egotistically and arrogantly, I'm gonna say that my training's more precise than his. Okay, so I'm working on very precise angles where he's a sledgehammer at times. You know, like I'm working on very fine angles through my wrist. You know, a lot of pronation in my style, a lot of hand control, a lot of table time. Like, I'm doing a lot of skill-based training. Levon's base movements, his row, his, I mean, he's doing, he's doing a 180 kilo curl.

• 1:03:43Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:03:44Joe Rogan?

  Two hands or one hand?

• 1:03:45Speaker 02

  Two, but that's a...

• 1:03:46Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  The amount of weight that he's wrist curling, I'm never, I'm never gonna get there. Okay, I'm never gonna catch him there. Okay, I need to catch him through something smaller. Like, I need to be able to, like a pit bull, like somehow nip onto like his fingertip and not let it go.

• 1:04:07Joe Rogan?

  Because you're never gonna be as big as him.

• 1:04:09Speaker 02

  Probably not.

• 1:04:10Joe Rogan?

  But do you think that it would benefit you at all to add size? To get?

• 1:04:17Speaker 02

  I try it for every single prep that I do. I'm trying, in the super heavyweight division, I'm trying to get as big and strong as I can.

• 1:04:25Joe Rogan?

  What do you weigh now?

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Today, I'm probably 265.

• 1:04:28Joe Rogan?

  And so you're giving up a considerable amount of weight.

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  When I compete, I can, I can get up to 300, okay, when I'm competing. And hopefully, by the time I face him again, I'll be my biggest ever. I hope when I pull him, I'll be 310 or 320, you know?

• 1:04:44Joe Rogan?

  And when you do that, what would you do to get that big? Would you add a bunch of weightlifting stuff?

• 1:04:50Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:04:50Joe Rogan?

  No, what would you do, just eat?

• 1:04:52Speaker 02

  Eat, stay in my basement, you know? Yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:58Joe Rogan?

  But he's doing all this other stuff, this is why I'm confused. Like, have you tried adding all those chin-ups and all the different things that he does?

• 1:05:06Speaker 02

  I am very far down the road. I'm very, very far down the road. I've been doing this for like 32 years competitively. I've gone through so many systems. While it is incredible to have a great row, while it is incredible to have a great...

• 1:05:25Speaker 02

  A great wrist flexion. Wow, it's incredible to have great legs. Like, I go to tournaments sometimes and my legs are sore. But typically, the reason why you win and lose the match is very small things in the hand and the wrist. Like, this is typically the failure point. So, I just try and put everything into the most valuable pieces that I think is actually gonna determine my victory. And, look, and apart from Levon, it's working. You know? This guy has raised, he's raised the sport, you know? And I continue to chase him. I continue to try and beat this dude. You know, my wife-

• 1:06:01Joe Rogan?

  Have you gotten close?

• 1:06:07Speaker 02

  The first time, the first time, he tore my bicep.

• 1:06:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, whoa!

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  You know, see, see that tattoo?

• 1:06:12Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:06:13Speaker 02

  See, it's a cat with 415. I used to call him a 415-pound pussy. You know, in the workup to the match, I was teasing him. And in Georgian, it says Levon was here. Because he ripped it, second round. Uh, so that was, the first time was a wash. Uh, the second time I pulled him, uh, I stopped him. I stopped him round one.

• 1:06:35Joe Rogan?

  What does that mean?

• 1:06:36Speaker 02

  So, a lot of times in arm wrestling, get everything straight, don't move, go. And, uh, to stop a match means there's no movement.

• 1:06:48Joe Rogan?

  So, no one's winning?

• 1:06:49Speaker 02

  Nobody's winning.

• 1:06:50Joe Rogan?

  And you don't just keep going to the death?

• 1:06:52Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:52Joe Rogan?

  You do?

• 1:06:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, but I, I got, like, if you look up the second time that I arm wrestled for round one, yeah, okay. So, this is, this is the last time I pulled him, which is 2024.

• 1:07:04Joe Rogan?

  And when you say pulled him, it means you have a match with him?

• 1:07:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's right.

• 1:07:07Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  So, everything goes to the straps. And I'm telling you, like-

• 1:07:14Joe Rogan?

  So, is that what happens when the match doesn't work out? And the hands slip away from each other?

• 1:07:19Speaker 02

  Straps.

• 1:07:19Joe Rogan?

  Straps. Do you guys put powder in your hands or anything?

• 1:07:22Speaker 02

  Yep, yep, use chalk. But, yeah, every, this sport is a strap-based sport at this point. Like, rules are evolving in arm wrestling. It used to be, well, in some leagues still, you get a foul if you, if there's a slip, somebody intentionally did it, or it's a neutral slip and then they go to the straps. Um, but yeah, so we get to the straps. And this first round is the closest I've gotten to him. And in this match, I think he, I think he might have ripped my spine apart. Like, yeah, I couldn't walk properly for like four months.

• 1:07:59Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:07:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I'm top rolling, I get into his wrist and, and I'm just like, I'm in shock. I'm like, I can't believe, so I kinda, I think I had the opportunity here to do a little bit more, like to seize the initiative, but I was in such shock that I got him to this point. You know, I'm just, and then here we go. His wrist is starting to go and so that's a flop wrist press and I get a foul, okay? For, see my shoulder goes below the table?

• 1:08:29Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:08:29Speaker 02

  This is called decline humorous and it's, and it's a foul. You can't, you can't do that.

• 1:08:34Joe Rogan?

  So you start from scratch?

• 1:08:35Speaker 02

  Well, I'm actually on my second foul, so that's a loss because I was being too much of an idiot in the setup and they, and they gave me a foul. And then from here on, he just, he just runs me.

• 1:08:46Joe Rogan?

  So it's a loss? What do you mean?

• 1:08:48Speaker 02

  So in arm wrestling, if you get two fouls?

• 1:08:50Joe Rogan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:08:51Speaker 02

  It's a loss.

• 1:08:52Joe Rogan?

  So the match is over?

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  Match is over, but see, this is best of seven, so from here, he runs me over. But this is the closest I've gotten, okay? We've practiced since then, we've, we've, we've gone, I'll probably practice with him this weekend. But I'm slated to pull this monster again. It's gonna happen one more time for sure. It's, uh, it's what keeps me in my basement.

• 1:09:16Joe Rogan?

  That one guy?

• 1:09:17Speaker 02

  This guy.

• 1:09:19Joe Rogan?

  The size of that motherfucker.

• 1:09:20Speaker 02

  He's awesome. Uh, he's a, he's a beautiful human. I, I, I love, I love this guy. He's, he's the, he's lifting the sport in terms of performance, you know? Like, he's so hard to deal with. Yeah. And that's it, man. It just gets worse. It just gets worse. But, uh...

• 1:09:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I I can still win in like the hundred and fifteen kilo division and the hundred and five kilo division. I think I've got those ones pretty much wrapped up. It's but but it's the open, you know, to be the best.

• 1:09:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  Regardless of weight, um.

• 1:09:55Joe Rogan?

  That's so much weight to give up.

• 1:09:56Speaker 02

  I know, but.

• 1:09:57Joe Rogan?

  You're giving up what, a hundred and thirty-five pounds?

• 1:10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah. But it's so cool to try, you know, it's so cool to try and what he does is he cleans my life up. If it wasn't for him, I wouldn't do all this.

• 1:10:11Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:10:11Speaker 02

  No. No, I'd be happy being the champ, you know, but when you're not the champ, you're not happy and you're gonna do everything you can, so.

• 1:10:19Joe Rogan?

  So even though you're a champ at your weight class, it's the open that.

• 1:10:23Speaker 02

  Open.

• 1:10:24Joe Rogan?

  Haunts you.

• 1:10:24Speaker 02

  Haunts me, yeah. I've been there before, like so in two thousand eight, I was actually, I I won against this legendary figure of the sport, John Brzink. He's considered the greatest of all time. John Brzink, uh, basically for forty years, forty years, from the time he was like eighteen to like almost sixty, okay? He he went undefeated for like, basically undefeated for like twenty-five years. Yeah. In America. This guy, this guy, super cool, okay, different era, and you'll see the difference, okay? So you'll see that this sport has changed.

• 1:11:02Joe Rogan?

  Can we pull him up?

• 1:11:03Speaker 02

  John Brzink, John Brzink's the GOAT. Yeah, yeah, he'll be there this weekend, too.

• 1:11:09Joe Rogan?

  And is he still competing?

• 1:11:11Speaker 02

  John is not really competing, but he's just so tied into the sport. I think it's inevitable that he comes back, but.

• 1:11:18Joe Rogan?

  How old is he?

• 1:11:19Speaker 02

  He's like sixty, sixty-one, or, yeah.

• 1:11:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:11:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he's the man. This guy's the man. So you know the movie Over the Top?

• 1:11:26Joe Rogan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Uh, so Sylvester, that's actually John. The tournament was real.

• 1:11:33Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:11:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was a real, the movie followed the tournament, and John is actually the guy who won it.

• 1:11:40Joe Rogan?

  And John's not that big?

• 1:11:41Speaker 02

  No, he's not.

• 1:11:42Joe Rogan?

  How much does John weigh?

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  On a good day, on a great day, John's like two thirty, but but but when he was young and healthy, probably one ninety-five, like.

• 1:11:52Joe Rogan?

  So when he was winning?

• 1:11:53Speaker 02

  When he, like, he went like, he went like twenty-five years around two hundred and ten pounds, beating every single person on the planet. He's awesome. He's awesome. John Brzink. So John started arm wrestling when he was a kid with his dad. And he's one of the first guys.

• 1:12:11Joe Rogan?

  Can we see him do it? Yeah, yeah, I'm trying.

• 1:12:12Speaker 02

  John's one of the first guys who. Arm wrestling has kind of evolved in its respectedness, okay, as a sport. I think if you went back like forty years and you talk about arm wrestling, people would be like, oh, that's cool. Yeah, let's go arm wrestle like. And I'm gonna get better by arm wrestling by doing pecs and glutes and, you know, getting my whole body strong. And John was kind of one of the first guys who was like, I'm an arm wrestler. I practice arm wrestling. I go to tournaments. I don't need to lift weights, okay? So he started young. The dude's thumb is probably like bigger than mine. And he's like, you know, six foot one, six foot two. So he's to a certain degree built for it. But masterful technician.

• 1:12:57Joe Rogan?

  So he doesn't lift weights?

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:13:00Joe Rogan?

  So all he did was arm wrestle to train for arm wrestling?

• 1:13:02Speaker 02

  Isn't that wild?

• 1:13:03Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:13:04Speaker 02

  So it gave.

• 1:13:05Joe Rogan?

  He's not a big guy.

• 1:13:06Speaker 02

  No, he's not. That's a former Russian champion, Zaur. Actually, no, Zaur might be Georgian. He might have been Russian at this time, but he's a Georgian. Yeah. Yeah, John's technique was way above everybody's, way, way above.

• 1:13:25Speaker 02

  I remember coming up. Like, I had heard about John Brzink for years before I ever saw him. Because, you know, it's pre-internet, right? John Brzink like silently ruled the arm wrestling world for decades. You know, pre-internet, pre, pre, pre all this stuff. And yeah, and he went around the world beating all the monsters, all the. And this is who I actually got the world title from. So I beat John in 2008 for the world title.

• 1:13:55Speaker 02

  And it looks very different now, you know? Like, so before, so I was probably the last of the small super heavyweights. If you call, if you call me small, like, I'm bigger than John, but not by a lot, not by a lot. Uh, see Dennis Saplankoff on the left, that guy's a really famous arm wrestler. He was one of the guys who really raised the level. So that guy had a strength level, Dennis, he came in and he won the world title without really doing anything.

• 1:14:22Joe Rogan?

  I can't believe he doesn't lift weights.

• 1:14:24Speaker 02

  He doesn't lift weights.

• 1:14:26Joe Rogan?

  All he does is arm wrestle.

• 1:14:27Speaker 02

  All he does is arm wrestle.

• 1:14:28Joe Rogan?

  No other kind of physical training at all?

• 1:14:30Speaker 02

  He's a mechanic.

• 1:14:37Speaker 02

  He's a special guy, listen, listen.

• 1:14:38Joe Rogan?

  That's incredible, man.

• 1:14:40Speaker 02

  The, the, the arm wrestling world loves and worships John Brusink. He's, he's the GOAT, he's like the forefather, like, uh, I remember when I was coming up, I read everything this dude wrote. He is the, one of the reasons why we all kind of respect table time, don't need weights so much. Specialization, John is kind of poster boy for, for specialization.

• 1:15:03Joe Rogan?

  And what kind of training did he do?

• 1:15:05Speaker 02

  Dude, he arm wrestled.

• 1:15:06Joe Rogan?

  Just arm wrestle? Did he do specific things when he was arm wrestling?

• 1:15:10Speaker 02

  We keep asking the same questions about John, um, like, we think, like, some people think he had, like, a secret set up in his basement and stuff like that. But everything kind of points towards, um, even if he's kind of kidding us and tricking us, it's certainly not a lot. Uh, he arm wrestled with his dad as a kid, okay? And, you know, they're practicing all the time, so this Iceman, okay, that's the, that's the guy who John beat to become kind of the best. Okay, this guy is like the guy before John.

• 1:15:42Joe Rogan?

  So he was the original king of arm wrestling?

• 1:15:45Speaker 02

  He is, yeah.

• 1:15:46Joe Rogan?

  Johnny Walker?

• 1:15:47Speaker 02

  Johnny Walker, yeah, Iceman. Uh, and he, he was the best for a long time, but John eventually beat him. You know, you see, that's John is like a kid. Mm hmm. Right? John's probably like seventeen there. Wow. Yeah.

• 1:16:01Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:24Joe Rogan?

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• 1:17:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, but no, John arm wrestled all, John, like arm wrestling is gonna make you strong. Oh, imagine. Oh, you you will get. And that's a lot of reason why we get guys into the sport who are in the strength field. Like if you're a strong man, if you're a powerlifter, you try arm wrestling, you'll be so sore. You'll be like, oh my god, because people look for that, right?

• 1:17:59Joe Rogan?

  Something that can get you really sore.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  Arm wrestling will get you so sore that you can barely move. I've been so sore from arm wrestling matches, I can't even walk. I can't even get up for days, for days.

• 1:18:13Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:18:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Unbelievable. Because it's something about the way the body's designed. Like, we are actually probably designed to resist things from happening, more than we are to make things happen. So we're very, very strong to stop things from happening. And arm wrestling is what, that's the strength we really hone in on, right? Because we're locking, we get into these locked positions, and then we're trying to open the other person up. And this process of being ripped open is super taxing, super, super taxing, so. Yeah, John ruled the arm wrestling world for like 25 years, he's still around. Yeah, I'll get to, I'll get to talk to him tomorrow, yeah.

• 1:18:59Joe Rogan?

  And so do you think he thinks about competing again?

• 1:19:02Speaker 02

  Of course he does, of course he does.

• 1:19:05Joe Rogan?

  But he doesn't, when was the last time he did it?

• 1:19:07Speaker 02

  Last time he competed was in Dallas. He competed against a guy called Yoshi Kanai, who's the number one guy from Japan. John is way past his prime, okay? Like John, John, when John was like in his 30s, he was like the Levon, but 210 pounds. Nobody could beat him. It took a while, but the thing is, arm wrestling got cool, you know, to a degree where we were on ESPN, governments started to recognize it, so if you were from the right country, you know, you could be a pro arm wrestler, like if you're from Georgia, or Turkey, or Kazakhstan, you know, so the level started rising.

• 1:19:49Joe Rogan?

  When did this start happening?

• 1:19:50Speaker 02

  I think that governments started to recognize it. I'm going to guess here that a lot of them started. Started to do it around the turn of the millennia. Okay, probably they started around then. But it takes a long time for it all to like get in and and some countries are still switching over. I think Sweden just got recognized like I think within the last year or so. But once a country recognizes it as a sport, it's a massive influx of cash and support. So that'll raise the level.

• 1:20:22Speaker 02

  But what happened was we got, there was all these leagues. Like there was the PAL in Europe, there was the WAL in in North America. And it and it and it got the sport to a point where if you were the best, you could probably quit your job. Okay, and that was a huge step forward because, you know.

• 1:20:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a big step, right? And that happened around 2015.

• 1:20:52Joe Rogan?

  And do you think that's because of the internet, like YouTube videos, like popularity increases? TikTok, Instagram, that kind of shit?

• 1:21:00Speaker 02

  I that was massive, but that happened a bit later. First, what happened, a lot of small little steps. You know, there was a documentary, Pulling John, that came out. There was a couple of rich guys who thought arm wrestling was cool. And they just started to run leagues. Robert Drank with the UAL, Ultimate Arm Wrestling League out of California. I mean, it went from like when I first started the sport. Mike Gould classic, if we won 500 bucks, it was the greatest day of our life. You know, it was so cool. We won 500 bucks like, you know, that was it.

• 1:21:37Speaker 02

  And then with by by 2010 or so, even before that, the PAL, we were talking about thousands of dollars, $10,000. WAL came along, we got a massive influx of money, we were talking about $20,000, okay? And then we were on ESPN, so there were sponsors, okay? So you could get some sponsor money. If you were the best, you could barely make it. You could barely make it. And then and then COVID happened. And covid burnt down everything, burnt down all the leagues, which were kind of fractioning the sport, right? We had the best guys from Europe competing together, best guys from North America. When all the leagues burnt down, from the ashes, and a lot of people,

• 1:22:21Speaker 02

  and that's when TikTok and YouTube really started kicking, because everybody was locked in their house, and somehow arm wrestling got found. And our views went through the roof, people started to follow. Arm wrestling is good for TikTok attention span, you know? You can see a whole, yep. And, and then, yeah, so East versus West came along, and now we're everything. UFC, we're like the UFC of, of arm wrestling now, East versus West. All the best guys in the world, all pull at East versus West. And there's an event every seven weeks, international.

• 1:22:53Joe Rogan?

  So like, what does a top guy make to win a tournament now?

• 1:22:56Speaker 02

  Um, you know, it's, it's tricky when we talk about money, but you will make, like, if you're, if, if you're a top arm wrestler now, you're, you're definitely, you definitely don't need a side job. You definitely don't. Um, and you're, and you're, you're probably definitely making a healthy, a healthy six figures, you know, definitely. Um, so, yeah, so East versus West kind of raised the level. After covid, it's not the same sport. It's not. Like, the champions now, like, it's tough. It's tough to win a world, way harder to win a world title now than it was 10 or 15, 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah, now we have Levon.

• 1:23:38Joe Rogan?

  Right. Is there any drug testing?

• 1:23:40Speaker 02

  At East versus West, there's not, okay? So it's, it's F1, you know, everything, everything goes, but-

• 1:23:46Joe Rogan?

  What does F1 mean?

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  You know, like, Indy car? Everybody's got the same car?

• 1:23:51Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:51Speaker 02

  F1, like, innovation.

• 1:23:54Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:23:54Speaker 02

  Innovation.

• 1:23:57Speaker 02

  WAF, government funded, that has testing.

• 1:24:01Joe Rogan?

  What is WAF?

• 1:24:02Speaker 02

  Oh, sorry. World Arm Wrestling Federation. So, World Arm Wrestling Federation is kinda like the base of the sport. Okay, it's, it's a world level, so every country kinda plugs into it. They have state or provincial, then they have national, they have like Europeans or North Americans, and then they have a world championships annually, different part of the world every year that's tested.

• 1:24:30Joe Rogan?

  It's such a universal thing. Like, I remember arm wrestling kids in high school. You know, everybody knows how to arm wrestle. It's always been around. It's always been a thing. So it's really interesting to think that it's becoming more popular now than ever.

• 1:24:45Speaker 02

  It is. It's wonderful. I, I love the sport.

• 1:24:50Speaker 02

  I, I think that it's a great sport because of its safety, its longevity, its simplicity. Yeah, beautiful sport.

• 1:25:00Joe Rogan?

  But there's a lot of aspects to it. It's simple, but you're still learning.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:25:04Joe Rogan?

  So it can't be that simple.

• 1:25:06Speaker 02

  Like anything, you know, the more you dive into something, the more it opens.

• 1:25:10Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. At, at the level that I'm at now, you know, I continue to learn subtleties on a technical level, but it overflows more now into more vague and kinda like lifestyle principles. And I feel like that's how I get my big gains now is, you know, is, is the way I live my life. Like, the sport, you know, kinda cleans up my whole life. Yeah.

• 1:25:35Joe Rogan?

  Because you wanna perform well.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 1:25:37Joe Rogan?

  And so you're just so dedicated that like, you're on top of your nutrition, your sleep, everything.

• 1:25:42Speaker 02

  Everything. Yeah, yeah. Somewhere between, a balance between chaos and order, perfect performance is found.

• 1:25:51Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:25:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Joe Rogan?

  The balance between chaos and order is interesting because you kinda, to become great, you kinda have to have some chaos.

• 1:25:58Speaker 02

  You, it's so essential.

• 1:26:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:01Speaker 02

  Chaos is a huge part.

• 1:26:02Joe Rogan?

  Talk to me about that. What is that?

• 1:26:04Speaker 02

  This is, this is, I love this one. This is so good.

• 1:26:10Speaker 02

  This is one of my latest learning points that I've taken into account. And it's massively affected my planning, the way I, the way I plan events. So I have met many people in my life and I've met probably in my entire life, probably like two people who I would consider completely pure, you know, like basically like a Jesus Christ kind of person, like no sin, okay. But and on the other side, I've met only like a couple of people who I thought were generally pure evil or, you know, but I think most people are somewhere in the middle, okay? And they need that balance in their life, you know?

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  And I think that you need to, if you're talking about performance on a single date, this balance of what you are needs to be structured. So I think that actually in the fight, like when you're actually fighting, a lot of people, I think, perform best in chaos, okay? So when you get into the stage, you have to be completely wild, no rules, like you need to be completely unhinged. But leading up to it, you need to structure. You need to really become very ordered and the more you can bring order into your life, the better. I went to a kind of a presentation by this guy Mac, okay?

• 1:27:37Speaker 02

  He's a geneticist as well and he was talking about how life only exists in this balance between chaos and order and from that, I brought that into my training by making sticker charts. So when I was young, my mom used to motivate me through sticker charts. So when I did a good job, she'd give me a sticker and I loved it. So I have brought this concept into my training where there's only two stickers. There's a blue sticker, which is, you didn't quite make it. It's representative of chaos and a white sticker, which is representative of order.

• 1:28:18Speaker 02

  And after I compete, I purposely move into chaos. And it's not as though like, oh, I'm in chaos and I let everything catch on fire. I just, I don't need structure. I can go wherever, I can learn new things, I can try new things, I can open up my mind to whatever I want. Nothing's required. But really, I'm trying to gather data, put together a plan so that when I move into structure, I have a new kind of plan.

• 1:28:48Joe Rogan?

  So how do you structure that? Like when you say you move into chaos, like you allow yourself to not have a plan.

• 1:28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:57Joe Rogan?

  So this is obviously very planned.

• 1:28:59Speaker 02

  Yes. Yeah. So I will move from major, my life is structured that I'm move, it's in blocks. Okay. So I move from major event to major event. I am now at the very beginning of probably the longest block that I've ever had in my life. I'm gonna face that guy, Levon, in like 16 months. It's forever. It's an eternity, you know? So I am now in this period when I can travel, I can, I can just, I can be more open. In a way, it helps get me there. You know, I am trying to come up with what I think is the perfect blend.

• 1:29:43Speaker 02

  So that when I lock into my basement, I'm being super accurate. But I do believe that if you just try and be good every day, if you try and live a certain way every day, it creeps into your life. I need like a finish line. Okay? Like if I know I only have to be like this for four months or five months, I can make it. You know, if I'm like, I have to be like this for my whole life, everything creeps in, it falls apart. But it's a, it's an aid for me psychologically to remain disciplined. And it's, and it's a way for me to fit chaos into my life where it satisfies me as a human being. And I get to have fun and I get to go outside of my box.

• 1:30:24Speaker 02

  But that's the hardest thing to be a world champion at 51, is to put all your energy into something so simple. This is the most difficult piece, is the psychological dedication to do 10 hours of wrist curls in a day. You know, this is the difficult.

• 1:30:44Joe Rogan?

  You do 10 hours of wrist curls in a day?

• 1:30:45Speaker 02

  Dude, I do. I'll go, I'll get up in the morning and my wife Jodi will help me. Okay, we'll have food and I'm doing like, and that's the thing. So right now I'm coming up with the formula for the next one, but I was doing 14. Uh, seven times two, uh, cause I was doing right and left. I'm going back to pumpkin training, which is right hand only.

• 1:31:12Joe Rogan?

  Why they call that pumpkin training?

• 1:31:13Speaker 02

  You know about growing giant pumpkins?

• 1:31:15Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  You know those, you know, you ever seen those fairs where they have like a eight hundred pound, right?

• 1:31:21Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:22Speaker 02

  So, what that tell, what that teaches is if you wanna have a giant pumpkin, you pinch off all the flowers on the vine, except for one.

• 1:31:32Joe Rogan?

  Oh.

• 1:31:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, my giant pumpkin.

• 1:31:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I've tried and put everything into the right. I try and put all, and this is, so this is specialization. So, I've done this project for like, I did it for like six years before.

• 1:31:47Joe Rogan?

  So when you're saying you put everything in the right, you mean you don't do wrist curls or anything with your left hand?

• 1:31:52Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 1:31:53Joe Rogan?

  Nothing?

• 1:31:53Speaker 02

  Nothing.

• 1:31:55Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:31:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, now.

• 1:31:58Joe Rogan?

  Is this a energy, resource allocation thing?

• 1:32:02Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. It's interesting.

• 1:32:04Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 1:32:05Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Joe Rogan?

  Is there a difference in your right and your left?

• 1:32:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:32:08Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 1:32:09Speaker 02

  So you see, and I, I came up with this theory, you know, a little bit because of just nature, okay? And I see how nature works, um, but, um.

• 1:32:19Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you have one gigantic form.

• 1:32:21Speaker 02

  It's this one bit bigger.

• 1:32:22Joe Rogan?

  Look at the size of the difference, put those up.

• 1:32:24Speaker 02

  It's a bit, it's a bit bigger.

• 1:32:25Joe Rogan?

  It's twice as big.

• 1:32:26Speaker 02

  Okay, and, and I was balanced, okay? I was equal, I, I was left hand world champion also, okay? I, I've, but, but as I've aged, I'm like, how can I remain at the top of the sport? I'm gonna have to cut things, you know?

• 1:32:41Joe Rogan?

  But why does training your left arm take away from your right arm?

• 1:32:46Speaker 02

  I, I think we only have so much energy. I think there's like a finite amount of energy that we have. And if I tell my body that my energy goes here, more of it will go there and more development will happen. I don't think it's like I have this limitless amount of energy where I can be like a proportionate bodybuilder and be a world champion. I think that to be at the very top, you need to be very specialized and very focused. That's, that's what I believe. This comes, like, a lot of people criticize me for this, okay? I get, I get heaps of criticism and, and I, I'm very well aware of it. Um, and I think that if you were to.

• 1:33:24Joe Rogan?

  When you, can I stop you there?

• 1:33:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:25Joe Rogan?

  When you say heaps of criticism, by who and is it valid?

• 1:33:29Speaker 02

  I don't think it's valid.

• 1:33:31Joe Rogan?

  So who's criticizing you?

• 1:33:32Speaker 02

  I think that most of the criticism comes from more junior players. Okay, I think that most senior arm wrestlers, most guys who are like on my level, they understand it and to a certain degree, we all do it. Okay, I'm just an extreme example, but a lot of guys do it. Okay, a lot of guys do this in the sport. There's a couple of things that lead me to this, okay? The pumpkin is just a fun metaphor, okay? But when you get hurt in the one side, I think that a lot of people notice that somehow there's this amazing compensation that happens. Another thing is we have freaks in the sport.

• 1:34:15Speaker 02

  We have, we attract some real weirdos. Okay, a guy called Oleg Zok or Matthias Schlitt. Okay, and these are hellboys. Real life hellboys, okay? So they have like one arm that is crazy jacked.

• 1:34:32Joe Rogan?

  I've seen this one cat. He's a small dude.

• 1:34:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Joe Rogan?

  And he has one arm that's like a leg.

• 1:34:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:39Joe Rogan?

  What is his name?

• 1:34:40Speaker 02

  Probably Oleg. It's Oleg or Matthias. They're our best examples. Oleg is better, like, Oleg's a world champion.

• 1:34:47Joe Rogan?

  What's his last name?

• 1:34:47Speaker 02

  Zok.

• 1:34:49Joe Rogan?

  What a great name.

• 1:34:50Speaker 02

  Oh, he's so cool.

• 1:34:51Joe Rogan?

  What a great name.

• 1:34:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:34:52Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's the dude.

• 1:34:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:53Joe Rogan?

  That's the dude.

• 1:34:54Speaker 02

  And I've fought him.

• 1:34:54Joe Rogan?

  Look at the size of his fucking left arm. That is insanity.

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Okay, I actually pulled this guy at the UAL many years ago and he was like 165 pounds. And I was, and I was the current world champion and the kid almost beat me. Okay, yeah, yeah.

• 1:35:10Joe Rogan?

  Left-handed.

• 1:35:11Speaker 02

  Left-handed, yeah.

• 1:35:13Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ, his arm is insane.

• 1:35:15Speaker 02

  Isn't that awesome?

• 1:35:16Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy.

• 1:35:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:35:18Joe Rogan?

  He has the arm of a 300-pound man.

• 1:35:21Speaker 02

  Dude.

• 1:35:21Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:06Joe Rogan?

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• 1:36:50Joe Rogan?

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• 1:37:10Speaker 02

  At 170 pounds, he was almost, not even the world champion in his division, he was almost the world champion in the open.

• 1:37:22Joe Rogan?

  God, look at his left arm, and it's crazy.

• 1:37:26Speaker 02

  And what's extra crazy about it is the insertion points. It's not just that he's hypertrophied and blown up. Like, the insertion points are different. He's, like, the angles of his musculature, the development, like, it's wild.

• 1:37:41Joe Rogan?

  And how, is that genetic? Is that built?

• 1:37:44Speaker 02

  He was born like that, to a certain degree.

• 1:37:47Joe Rogan?

  But his right arm looks normal.

• 1:37:48Speaker 02

  Normal.

• 1:37:49Joe Rogan?

  So how is it so different on his left arm?

• 1:37:52Speaker 02

  So, it's my theory, okay, that he has a bit of a blood flow disorder. Okay? I believe that, so the arterial spread in the body, for most of us, is all the same. We have, like, an even distribution across our body. But I believe that his arterial spread is different. I think he's got a heavy arterial flow to one side.

• 1:38:16Joe Rogan?

  This is just your own personal theory?

• 1:38:18Speaker 02

  I've heard, I talked to Matthias. Matthias is another guy with this disorder. He was the one who kinda led me to believe that this is what was going on with him. And so this made me believe that there was so much value in blood flow alone. When it comes to the expression of what you are. Like I think anything that just gets more blood flow enhances. Yeah, the expression of the human being is largely determined by the circulation of, that the genetic, you know, piece receives.

• 1:38:58Speaker 02

  And I think with guys like this, it happened like in utero.

• 1:39:02Joe Rogan?

  That is cra- that left arm is fucking crazy.

• 1:39:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And he got in a vicious car crash. A horrible one, almost killed him. And he rehabbed and he's, and once again, he's the world champ again in the 85 kilo division. Completely, and he like, he should be dead. Like he broke everything, like super trauma, and he's still the best.

• 1:39:27Joe Rogan?

  He's pieced it back together again?

• 1:39:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, pieced him back together, and he's still, he's still the man. But, yeah, but what he taught me and what other people taught me is the value, and I believe, it's all theories, okay? I could be wrong on everything, but I, I think that it's the blood flow that really, it heals, it strengthens.

• 1:39:49Speaker 02

  And a lot of the thing is, is the heart isn't strong enough to feed all the structures. And that's where movement comes in. So that's why I train this way, increase circulation, yeah.

• 1:40:05Joe Rogan?

  Wow, so, but I still don't understand, like, clearly he's working that one arm more than he's working the left arm. Or excuse me, the right arm?

• 1:40:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think to a certain degree. But because of the way he was, yeah, this is Matthias, right?

• 1:40:20Joe Rogan?

  Same deal.

• 1:40:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he's, and he's like German, German national champion kinda level. Yeah, and like, it's just, it's hard to compete with.

• 1:40:29Joe Rogan?

  Right, but how much of that is just work with the right side over and over and over again? And how much of it is, you think, a genetic component?

• 1:40:36Speaker 02

  With these guys, it's a lot of genetic.

• 1:40:39Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:40:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, with them, but I believe the reason why it's expressing that way is because of an arterial spread. Okay, and talking to Matthias, he's the one that led me to believe that initially.

• 1:40:50Joe Rogan?

  Is that arterial spread influenced by work? Like, does it change the expression of the arteries in the, in the muscles?

• 1:40:58Speaker 02

  I think you can influence blood flow, for sure. Like, I think if you are repeatedly working one region very heavily, your, your circulatory system is gonna adapt. Like, my endurance capabilities on my right and my left are completely different. And that's from years of doing this. And so I have to think that, you know, it's not just a cellular thing. It's gotta be the blood flow, it's gotta be everything that's adapted over years. Yeah, and look, I, I really care about being the best. And all the information that I have makes me, I'm doing it again. Like, I laid off it for a couple of years, but I've started to do it again as I do my final prep one more time.

• 1:41:39Joe Rogan?

  When you say do it again, what are you doing differently?

• 1:41:41Speaker 02

  I'll go back to, so, my work, um, capacity, work, work amount that I'm doing between my right and left arm, it's, sometimes it's equal. Sometimes it's what I do with the right is what I do with the left. Uh, sometimes when I go to the club, I'll do right arm, I'll do left arm. And now, I've just swung it back, so I go to the club and I'm basically arm wrestling everybody I can, right hand, until people are kinda bored and then I'll do some left hand work. But the right is the priority. And the same thing when I do my homework in the, in the basement. I'm doing like eighty-five to ninety percent work on the right and maybe like just ten percent, like just, you know, just for timing and whatever on the left. Yeah.

• 1:42:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:42:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, super specialized. Yeah.

• 1:42:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, it's insane.

• 1:42:27Speaker 02

  I, I was, I'm sorry. Uh, I was so worried like that I was gonna develop like back issues, imbalance issues.

• 1:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Speaker 02

  None of that ever happened.

• 1:42:37Joe Rogan?

  Huh.

• 1:42:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:42:39Joe Rogan?

  Guys do that from archery. They develop imbalance issues just from pulling a bow one-sided. Like my friend Evan, he got a left-handed bow just so he could practice left-handed as well because he felt like it would balance him out.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  Right. I think balance is overrated.

• 1:42:54Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think balance is a nice concept for like some imaginary world that you live in. But if I live in a world where I'm trying to win a world title right-handed, then I need to let my body know that this is what I'm getting ready for and not confuse it.

• 1:43:12Joe Rogan?

  There's an interesting comparison in jiu-jitsu because there's a lot of guys that have like a very strong right side attack. Like Eddie Bravo, for instance. Eddie Bravo's attack is almost always on the right side of the body. Obviously, he has a black belt level attack on the left, but his right side attack is where he puts all his energy to. And his philosophy was along those same lines. If you just develop this one side, like so lethal.

• 1:43:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think that so much is about, you know, being able to have an icebreaker. You know, something that stops a match or wins you the match. And at, at a world level, it's, it's everything. Like if you can, if you can bring something from a ninety-nine to a hundred, you know, but it takes fifteen points off your left, that's a trade that a lot of people are willing to make. You know, if I can do anything to push my right a level up, if it let, makes me, you know, wither away in my left.

• 1:44:07Speaker 02

  Good trade.

• 1:44:08Joe Rogan?

  One of the things that I watched that I thought was really interesting, I've been watching a lot of these rock climbers and their ridiculous grip strength.

• 1:44:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:44:16Joe Rogan?

  A lot of these guys. There's that cat that has a YouTube channel, I know you've been on it, Magnus.

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  Magnus.

• 1:44:20Joe Rogan?

  Magnus, how do you say his last name?

• 1:44:22Speaker 02

  Mitbo.

• 1:44:23Joe Rogan?

  Mitbo. And he had that one dude who was just a super freak.

• 1:44:27Speaker 02

  Eve Gervais.

• 1:44:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:44:28Speaker 02

  He trains with me.

• 1:44:30Joe Rogan?

  Okay. That guy went right into arm wrestling and was fucking people up.

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  Right away.

• 1:44:35Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy. Which makes me think that maybe that kind of specialized training is like a cheat code.

• 1:44:42Speaker 02

  It's close. It's close. Yeah.

• 1:44:44Joe Rogan?

  Because that guy also has like enormous leg sized forearms.

• 1:44:48Speaker 02

  Eve Gervais.

• 1:44:49Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find him training with Magnus because they're in Eve's basement where he does all of his training. And he's doing these, like, how many millimeters is the hole?

• 1:44:58Speaker 02

  Like two.

• 1:44:59Joe Rogan?

  Okay. So he's doing two millimeter holes with his fingers where he's hanging.

• 1:45:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. I'm telling you, it makes no sense.

• 1:45:06Joe Rogan?

  He's such a freak.

• 1:45:07Speaker 02

  It makes zero sense. Like Magnus is super stud, okay? Magnus is like world level climber. Eve, when it comes to the strength component of climbing, it doesn't even make sense. I don't even understand how it's, how anybody could even do it. Like, it's like credit card. He can do pull-ups off of a credit card.

• 1:45:29Joe Rogan?

  That's insane.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:45:30Joe Rogan?

  How?

• 1:45:31Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know how he does it. It doesn't, and like, he has like rounded surfaces where there is nothing to bite on. Right there. There's nothing.

• 1:45:41Joe Rogan?

  So he's just chalking up his fingers and he hangs off of those?

• 1:45:44Speaker 02

  There's, there's nothing there. I don't know how he does it. There's nothing to bite. There's nothing. And he's pulling up off. I can't even understand how he does it. So he came into arm wrestling and he's like 150 pounds and...

• 1:46:01Joe Rogan?

  But it's 40 pounds of his forearms.

• 1:46:03Speaker 02

  So, we have a tournament in Ottawa where we both live. It's called the Ottawa Open. And it attracts the strongest dudes in the region. To win the Ottawa Open is really tough. He won it his first year after arm wrestling, six weeks.

• 1:46:17Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 1:46:19Speaker 02

  He's complete.

• 1:46:20Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:46:20Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 1:46:21Joe Rogan?

  And he weighs what?

• 1:46:22Speaker 02

  Like 150 pounds.

• 1:46:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god.

• 1:46:25Speaker 02

  No, Eve Gervais is a complete weirdo. I've never in my life met somebody who can do the stuff with grip that he can do.

• 1:46:33Joe Rogan?

  And it's all that training that he's doing. He's doing all this insane grip training.

• 1:46:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:46:37Joe Rogan?

  Which makes me think, like, what if you did that stuff?

• 1:46:40Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yes. Let me tell you, as good as Eve is now, he's gonna get even better. Okay?

• 1:46:48Joe Rogan?

  I can only imagine.

• 1:46:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. Nobody is touching Eve's fingers. But, like I talked about earlier, so if you kind of relate it to climbing, okay? Can you show me some stuff with that guy doing things?

• 1:47:01Speaker 03

  Well, I was trying to find that one.

• 1:47:03Speaker 02

  But just show me some of the other freakish things he does, because he could pick up things from the ground that nobody could pick up. Yeah, he does grip competition too. So, so that's another world that's closely tied to arm wrestling is the grip championships. Right? Where they're just, it's like powerlifting for grip.

• 1:47:18Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, and he's the best at that too. Yeah.

• 1:47:21Joe Rogan?

  It's just nuts, man.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's really nuts. Yeah. So there is a high degree of crossover, right? There is. But there are slight intricacies. Like, a kind of way to think about it in climbing, if you have a great grip, you are able to climb the wall. Okay? But in actual arm wrestling, you actually don't want to be the climber. You want to be the wall. Right?

• 1:47:47Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:47:47Speaker 02

  You want to make it hard for the other person's grip. You don't necessarily, he's capable of climbing any wall. Okay? But once he figures out how to be the wall instead, he's gonna be so, so difficult.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  It's fun to work with him. Our club in Ottawa, we have like, super freaks now. We have all these new guys with ridiculous potential. We got a guy come in who's bigger than Brian Shaw. Did you ask this, can you show me some video of this guy?

• 1:48:12Speaker 03

  He wasn't doing anything there, he was just like explaining deadlifts.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:48:15Speaker 03

  And I'm on, not his channel too, I'm like, it's bouncing back and between.

• 1:48:19Speaker 02

  So here he's doing fat grip, one arm chin ups. Did you see the, uh, the Thomas Inch? You know, see the Thomas Inch on the left?

• 1:48:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 1:48:28Speaker 02

  Right, nobody picks up the Thomas Inch when they're 150. You know?

• 1:48:32Joe Rogan?

  That's nuts.

• 1:48:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:48:34Joe Rogan?

  Like, this kind of grip is just insane. Oh my god, that's crazy, he's pinch gripping.

• 1:48:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:39Joe Rogan?

  And that guy Magnus is strong as shit too. Like, I saw a video of him training with Eddie Hall.

• 1:48:44Speaker 02

  Crazy strong.

• 1:48:45Joe Rogan?

  And he's doing these one-armed rows with like 180 pounds on each side. And I'm like, that is bananas, because he's not a big guy.

• 1:48:52Speaker 02

  No, but he's ridiculously strong as well. And that...

• 1:48:55Joe Rogan?

  And even him, he's dwarfed by this guy's strength.

• 1:48:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:48:59Joe Rogan?

  Which is crazy.

• 1:49:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, Eve is considered the strongest climber in the world.

• 1:49:04Joe Rogan?

  And did you ask him when he started this and how he got that strong?

• 1:49:09Speaker 02

  I've talked to Eve a lot about his training. He's so detailed. Like, the way he trains is very interesting, very progressive, very science-based.

• 1:49:20Joe Rogan?

  Look at those forearms, that's bonkers.

• 1:49:22Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, Eve is a... And, and he's an artist too. He makes masks.

• 1:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Masks?

• 1:49:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, like movie, movie masks?

• 1:49:31Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:49:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's, that's his main job. He, he makes masks and he, and he can climb anything. Yeah. He's a super cool guy. Yeah.

• 1:49:40Joe Rogan?

  Wow. Well, just, so seeing that, though, makes me think if a guy is that small and he has that kind of grip strength, that that has to be a massive factor...

• 1:49:50Speaker 02

  It is.

• 1:49:50Joe Rogan?

  ...in your ability to arm wrestle. So why wouldn't everybody do that? If a guy is 150 pounds and he could do that shit, and he's doing it with two arms. I mean, both of his arms are super jacked.

• 1:50:02Speaker 02

  There are levels of specialization.

• 1:50:05Joe Rogan?

  Right. Do you think it's maybe too late for you to do what he's doing? Because he's been doing this for decades and decades?

• 1:50:13Speaker 02

  I believe that he...

• 1:50:16Speaker 02

  is so good at all his grip work and his grip work is so high and it does have a lot of crossover. It does. Would I want that strength? Yes, of course. I just think that the motions that I'm doing are actually even more dangerous for the sport of arm wrestling. Like, if I was to advise, even I do, I talk to Eve like every week. I tell Eve, you know, the way he's going to progress his game is by probably doing these more precise movements to become the wall, you know, to become the thing that's hard to hold on to.

• 1:50:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:50:47Speaker 02

  He has an amazing ability to hold on to anybody, okay? And that's going to take him really, really far in the sport. But I think that as he's, Eve, I've told him, he, he's older in terms of entry, but he has world championship potential, you know? He, he's less than a year in the sport.

• 1:51:08Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:51:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's been arm wrestling since like last November. Yeah, give him, give him like, uh, give him like a year or two or three, and he's going to be knocking on the North American, like, you know, top pro level.

• 1:51:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:51:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it won't take him long. Yeah, he's, he's a freak for one, and he's super smart. And arm wrestling is a very nice crossover for climbers because so many of the strengths are similar. Really similar.

• 1:51:35Joe Rogan?

  And when you say, so he's very scientific about his training, like, what does he do?

• 1:51:39Speaker 02

  The thing that struck me when I spoke to him about his training is he kind of does testing. I found that very, very different from the way I train. So, before he does his workout, he does these tests, like with his grip, and he like says how easy or hard they are, and if, and if he's not feeling right, he won't do the training, so he'll continue to rest. He'll abort a training session because it doesn't feel right.

• 1:52:03Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:52:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I, and I, I'm like, I'm doing it.

• 1:52:07Joe Rogan?

  Right, right, interesting.

• 1:52:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, look, whatever, I've seen it, it's very detailed, it's, um...

• 1:52:13Joe Rogan?

  And where did he learn this from?

• 1:52:15Speaker 02

  I think he's, he's crazy. He loves armor, yeah, sorry, he loves, he loves climbing, and I think he's just obsessed. And I think he probably digests everything, I probably, I think he's probably studies everything about climbing and strength, and he just put it all together.

• 1:52:31Joe Rogan?

  So what is he doing here?

• 1:52:32Speaker 02

  It looks like a static wrist test. Looks like he's measuring it through a, a weight to see how much in a static capacity he can generate.

• 1:52:43Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:52:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:44Joe Rogan?

  Pushing isometrics for arm wrestling.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:52:48Joe Rogan?

  So all just wrist curling ability.

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Isometric, yeah, maximum output, which is really the main strength that arm wrestlers need. That locked isometric or even negative strength.

• 1:53:01Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 1:53:03Speaker 02

  And all his squeezing.

• 1:53:05Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 1:53:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he's very special.

• 1:53:09Joe Rogan?

  That is crazy.

• 1:53:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's the thing, he's got all these charts.

• 1:53:16Joe Rogan?

  And so he's doing this all himself because there's probably no one that could teach him this stuff. Cause he's probably at the top of the food chain with this.

• 1:53:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:53:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:53:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's a gift to have come around. We love, we love that, we love that we've kinda got him, cause uh.

• 1:53:36Joe Rogan?

  Oh, I'm sure, because when you get a freak like that, like out of nowhere. What is he doing here?

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  Alright, so he's working his curls and he's adding resistance through the elastic. So you can see, he's, this is not a climber exercise, I don't think anymore, he's really switching, you know?

• 1:53:53Joe Rogan?

  To arm wrestle.

• 1:53:54Speaker 02

  I think, I think he's got the bug. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:00Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:54:00Speaker 02

  It won't be long, it won't be long, he'll be at East vs West for a 70 kilo world title.

• 1:54:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's such an enormous advantage to have these fucking gigantic forearms and insane strength.

• 1:54:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:13Joe Rogan?

  And it's just so weird that you could get these guys that are so physically small, that are so damn strong. Like when Magnus was doing rows, you're like, where's the force coming from? You have 150 pound, 160 pound body and you're doing these 180 pound, single arm rows.

• 1:54:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:32Joe Rogan?

  Like where's the force coming from, like where's the, is it tendon strength, is it, where's the tissue? Right, like you look at Eddie Hall, you're like, okay, that makes sense that that guy could lift that much weight, massive.

• 1:54:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:54:44Joe Rogan?

  This guy's not massive, if you saw him in a t-shirt, you wouldn't even, unless you looked at his forearms, you wouldn't even think he was strong, you'd say, well, he probably runs or something, looks like a normal guy that's fit. He doesn't look like a guy who can do 180 pound, one arm rows, so what, what is that? How do you do that? Where's it coming from?

• 1:55:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that for, I think that arm wrestlers, climbers, a lot of athletes, fighters too, they start to recognize the value of the hand. You know, a lot of guys, you know, in the, in the communities like strongman, powerlifting, other strength disciplines, they get immense strength through their body, through their shoulders and different parts, that by the time it goes through the chain, through the elbow, through the wrist, into the fingers, only a small portion of that is able to get managed.

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  Right. I see that with guys when they work out with straps. I've never used straps.

• 1:55:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:55:41Joe Rogan?

  Because to me with jiu-jitsu, grip is so important. I never wanted to rely only on my muscles and not have a strong grip. Like, it didn't make any sense to me.

• 1:55:50Speaker 02

  In so many functional things, the hand is the shortcoming.

• 1:55:54Joe Rogan?

  Or the feet.

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  Or the feet.

• 1:55:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I talked to Nick Curson once, who's a strength and conditioning trainer, and I said, "What do you think is like the number one thing that fighters lack on?" He said, "Foot strength."

• 1:56:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:06Joe Rogan?

  I said, "Foot strength?" He goes, "Yeah, foot strength." He goes, "Once your foot strength breaks down, everything breaks down. Your movement breaks down, your power breaks down, your ability to get out of the way of things, the ability to close the distance."

• 1:56:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:56:19Speaker 03

  More on the grip strength.

• 1:56:20Joe Rogan?

  What is his, what did he get?

• 1:56:21Speaker 03

  160.

• 1:56:22Joe Rogan?

  Oh, that's crazy. I got more than him.

• 1:56:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, he just did it really hard, too.

• 1:56:26Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy. But that makes sense. I'm 200 pounds, right?

• 1:56:30Speaker 02

  But it's, it's, it's a chain, and grip is a part of the functional hand chain.

• 1:56:36Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:56:37Speaker 02

  You know?

• 1:56:37Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's clearly, he's way stronger than me with rows.

• 1:56:41Speaker 02

  The, the interesting thing with grip is grip is only a small part of control. Oh, this guy, uh, what's that guy's name? He's, he's actually the best, eh, Andra, right?

• 1:56:53Joe Rogan?

  What did he get?

• 1:56:54Speaker 02

  He's actually the best climber in the world right now.

• 1:56:55Joe Rogan?

  161. Same thing.

• 1:56:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I saw-

• 1:56:59Joe Rogan?

  Okay, that's crazy.

• 1:57:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:00Joe Rogan?

  Derrick Lewis got 218. Derrick Lewis, the guy who fights in the UFC, and he did it casually.

• 1:57:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:07Joe Rogan?

  He just, Derrick's got giant paws, like catcher's mitt paws.

• 1:57:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:11Joe Rogan?

  And he, he pulled 218, he got higher than anybody, and it didn't even look like he was trying.

• 1:57:16Speaker 02

  The guy I just arm wrestled, I think, had the world record for, for some time, Vitali Lletin.

• 1:57:20Joe Rogan?

  What was that?

• 1:57:21Speaker 02

  I don't know what the number is, it was, but I know he had the world record. Vitali Lletin, he, so, I, I'm actually not big on grip. I'm not.

• 1:57:30Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:57:30Speaker 02

  I'm not, but most people are.

• 1:57:33Joe Rogan?

  There's a guy that I follow on Instagram, Jamie, pull him up, his name is Michael Eckert, and...

• 1:57:39Speaker 03

  351.

• 1:57:40Joe Rogan?

  Boom!

• 1:57:40Speaker 02

  Is that Vitali?

• 1:57:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:57:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:57:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god!

• 1:57:44Speaker 02

  So listen, so listen, so mine is probably like 70 pounds, but I beat him.

• 1:57:49Joe Rogan?

  Wait a minute, you, you don't...

• 1:57:50Speaker 02

  No, no, no, it's terrible.

• 1:57:52Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no.

• 1:57:52Speaker 02

  I'm crippled.

• 1:57:53Joe Rogan?

  Shut the fuck up.

• 1:57:54Speaker 02

  I'm telling you.

• 1:57:54Joe Rogan?

  There's no way.

• 1:57:55Speaker 02

  I'm such a disappointment.

• 1:57:56Joe Rogan?

  I squeezed stronger than you.

• 1:57:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do, you do.

• 1:57:57Joe Rogan?

  That's not possible.

• 1:57:58Speaker 02

  No, you probably do.

• 1:57:59Joe Rogan?

  That is literally not possible.

• 1:58:00Speaker 02

  I'm telling you.

• 1:58:00Joe Rogan?

  Look at the size of this guy.

• 1:58:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's like 6'9", like, he's about 3, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:58:07Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy!

• 1:58:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:08Joe Rogan?

  154 kilograms is so bananas.

• 1:58:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:58:12Joe Rogan?

  That's so strong. You can only do 70, that doesn't make any sense.

• 1:58:15Speaker 02

  When I was younger, I could do like 8 or 9 reps of the number 3 Captain's of Crush.

• 1:58:22Joe Rogan?

  Wow, I have this sucker here on the table.

• 1:58:24Speaker 02

  What is that?

• 1:58:24Joe Rogan?

  All the time. I don't know what this is. You tell me, squeeze it, tell me what you think that is.

• 1:58:29Speaker 02

  200 pounds, so this isn't a Captain of Crush, this is a...

• 1:58:32Joe Rogan?

  I think it is. It's not?

• 1:58:34Speaker 03

  I bought those. They just have a number on the bottom.

• 1:58:36Speaker 02

  Can't do it, Joe. Can't, I can't do it.

• 1:58:38Joe Rogan?

  You can't do that?

• 1:58:39Speaker 03

  Come on. 1 and 1/2, 2 and 1/2.

• 1:58:41Joe Rogan?

  I do that all day long.

• 1:58:42Speaker 02

  You should come and arm wrestle with us.

• 1:58:44Joe Rogan?

  No, I could beat people who suck.

• 1:58:47Speaker 02

  Grip is interesting, okay, grip is a part of control, but so much of the control through your hand has to do with the ability to control the angles. You know, can you control this way, this way, this way, this way? You know, can you spin? You know, the grip is like the final inflection point. It's the final piece to add.

• 1:59:06Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:59:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:59:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, I understand that it's not everything. It's a thing that I've been obsessed with lately because I'm not strong at it.

• 1:59:12Speaker 02

  Grip's beautiful.

• 1:59:13Joe Rogan?

  So this 162 kilograms, geez. So find this guy, Michael Eckert, on Instagram. He's a guy that I follow and he has all these grip strength tutorials. He's a Marine and I guess that's him. And he can do 220 and he doesn't look like a very big guy either, but he does like crazy one-arm pull-ups and he has massive forearms. But like, look at his thing right there.

• 1:59:40Joe Rogan?

  Uh, there's a thing below it. You see numbers. There it is.

• 1:59:45Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so this is what he's lifting. This is he's doing this for chin-ups. But he has, uh, the grip strength thing. The really good one is the one that has knurled metal. It has very little play in it and so you get a real accurate, he said it's the most accurate one of all of them. Um, that one right there. See what says 119? So I think that's 119 kilograms.

• 2:00:14Speaker 02

  Hand is beautiful.

• 2:00:17Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. What is that? 262. So he can do 262 and he's not a very big guy. So he does 100 pounds more than me and he's not a big guy.

• 2:00:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:00:28Joe Rogan?

  I mean, when you're looking at him, but he does crazy like chin-up stuff. 256, that's fucking nuts. So his, it's, uh, Michael Eckert, uh,

• 2:00:42Joe Rogan?

  L- Ellicard. No, Eckert. E-C-K-E-R-T. E-C-K-E-R-T. So it's Michael Eckert underscore fit on Instagram. And, uh, this guy's, uh, turned me on to a bunch of stuff, told me stuff to get and what to work out with. But I'm just blown away because I look at him and I go, well, you're not that big. That's what's crazy. Like you look at his forearms are obviously very big, very strong, but he's not like this massive guy. Like, who's that giant Russian cat?

• 2:01:14Speaker 02

  Smayev.

• 2:01:14Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Boy.

• 2:01:17Speaker 02

  He's something real special.

• 2:01:19Joe Rogan?

  If that guy pulled 262, I go, okay, that makes sense. But I look at Michael and I'm like, he's not the biggest guy in the world, but he does so much grip stuff.

• 2:01:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, we're praying for Smaya to come into the sport.

• 2:01:33Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:01:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:34Joe Rogan?

  That guy's a fucking freak.

• 2:01:37Speaker 02

  Freakiest, not just freak, freakiest.

• 2:01:40Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. How is he alive? Like, you gotta think, there's not a lot of time on that hourglass.

• 2:01:46Speaker 02

  Live hard, die fast.

• 2:01:48Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, he's pushing, there he is.

• 2:01:51Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:01:52Joe Rogan?

  But, um, yeah, I mean, all these strengths for our sport, they all add together. Look at his fucking hands. They don't even look real.

• 2:02:04Speaker 02

  Oh, he's so loud.

• 2:02:06Joe Rogan?

  And he's open about all the sauce that he's on. He's on everything. I mean, someone, who was in here that was explaining how much, uh, growth hormone he takes?

• 2:02:16Speaker 02

  I heard he debunked that.

• 2:02:17Joe Rogan?

  Oh, really?

• 2:02:18Speaker 02

  I, I saw a video where he said it wasn't true, but I have no idea.

• 2:02:22Joe Rogan?

  That he wasn't taking that much?

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean.

• 2:02:24Joe Rogan?

  Because someone was saying he was taking like-

• 2:02:26Speaker 02

  Over a hundred or something.

• 2:02:27Joe Rogan?

  Some crazy thing, like 10 units of growth a day.

• 2:02:29Speaker 02

  I, no, I heard it was a hundred.

• 2:02:31Joe Rogan?

  A hundred units?

• 2:02:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I heard it was like.

• 2:02:33Joe Rogan?

  Well, that doesn't even make-

• 2:02:33Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:02:34Joe Rogan?

  That seems like you would just grow. You would just become a giant. Like, that's like a pituitary disorder, right?

• 2:02:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, more than.

• 2:02:41Joe Rogan?

  Right, because that's what you're getting.

• 2:02:42Speaker 02

  It's a lot.

• 2:02:43Joe Rogan?

  Hey, well, clearly, he's done a bunch of stuff, though. I mean, if you see him when he was younger, he looked like a normal athlete.

• 2:02:49Speaker 02

  I never saw him normal. I mean, I've been following him for probably like six or seven years.

• 2:02:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:54Speaker 02

  I mean, I think the first time I saw him, he was doing chin-ups with like 250 pounds strapped to him, you know? I think that's the first time I saw him. Uh, he not normal.

• 2:03:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look at his fucking size. So, is it left size? Who's, what's the left? When he's 17?

• 2:03:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, he was, look, that's not a, that's not a normal 17-year-old.

• 2:03:13Joe Rogan?

  No, clearly.

• 2:03:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:03:14Joe Rogan?

  He's pretty jacked, but I, that makes sense. Like, that guy on the left makes sense. Like, I've seen guys like that before.

• 2:03:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, but not at 17.

• 2:03:21Joe Rogan?

  No, but go to that photo again, but the guy on the right, he looks like the Incredible Hulk. Like, he looks like a superhero. Like, it doesn't look like a real human being. Like, the size of his forearms, the size of his biceps, that doesn't look like a regular human being. It looks like a complete freak of nature. Or science.

• 2:03:41Speaker 02

  And he's training for arm wrestling.

• 2:03:43Joe Rogan?

  I could only imagine.

• 2:03:44Speaker 02

  So he's, like, if you follow his Insta or whatever, he's doing the arm wrestling lifts, like the Pro Nation. And his lifting is already at a level of like world.

• 2:03:54Joe Rogan?

  Go to his Instagram, please.

• 2:03:56Speaker 02

  It's, his Instagram got taken down, so it's like some new.

• 2:03:59Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:04:00Speaker 03

  That's right, he didn't have it.

• 2:04:01Joe Rogan?

  Why'd it get taken down?

• 2:04:02Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. But I heard it was taken down, but he does have a new one, whether it's his or it's a fan one. I know, I just saw it yesterday.

• 2:04:10Joe Rogan?

  Why would they take down his Instagram?

• 2:04:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, the only one I could find is this.

• 2:04:14Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 2:04:15Speaker 03

  Smiveofficial and it's 27 weeks ago. There was a tag and that's all that.

• 2:04:19Speaker 02

  But, no, there is, there, I know, because I saw it like yesterday.

• 2:04:23Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so it's gone. The page is gone.

• 2:04:25Speaker 02

  There's some fan page where he's doing Pro Nation lifts.

• 2:04:29Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck? What is wrong? Why would they take this guy's Instagram down?

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  Because he's inspiring people to turn into monsters?

• 2:04:38Joe Rogan?

  Do you think that's what it is?

• 2:04:39Speaker 02

  I, I don't know. I don't know. There, this is what I'm talking about. See, now, this is a much more normal, like, for arm wrestling, this is actually more functional than anything through the grip, I think.

• 2:04:51Joe Rogan?

  So this is all Pro Nation?

• 2:04:52Speaker 02

  That's Pro Nation.

• 2:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Turning the wrist, lifting insane weight.

• 2:04:56Speaker 02

  Yeah. And just based off of that information that I see there, I already know.

• 2:05:01Joe Rogan?

  Click on that one, that you got your, yeah. Fucking size of this guy.

• 2:05:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:06Joe Rogan?

  That is so crazy. Explosive jumps.

• 2:05:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the, the crazy thing about him is he's not competing in anything.

• 2:05:16Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:16Speaker 02

  But I think that this is a guy who's just gonna show up, whether it's in anything. He gets to pick. And he's probably gonna show up at like a world level.

• 2:05:29Joe Rogan?

  Like, anything like what?

• 2:05:30Speaker 02

  I'd say anything, whether powerlifting.

• 2:05:33Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:05:33Speaker 02

  Strongman. Um, I, I'd be terrified if he even got to like blue belt.

• 2:05:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god.

• 2:05:39Speaker 02

  Like, what are you gonna do?

• 2:05:40Speaker 03

  What are you gonna do?

• 2:05:40Joe Rogan?

  How much does he weigh?

• 2:05:41Speaker 02

  I think like 340, 350.

• 2:05:43Joe Rogan?

  340 and preposterous strength. Like.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:46Joe Rogan?

  Strength, you know, Mark Coleman always used to say that, strength is a skill. And there's something to, to that. Because if you are that strong, there's only so much you could do with that guy's body.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:05:57Joe Rogan?

  Especially if he developed actual skills, an understanding of leverage, positions.

• 2:06:02Speaker 02

  Even just the base movement patterns that are really applicable.

• 2:06:05Joe Rogan?

  352 lead.

• 2:06:07Joe Rogan?

  Jesus.

• 2:06:08Speaker 02

  He was supposed to pull, there was a proposal for him to pull one of our guys called Leonidas Arcona.

• 2:06:14Joe Rogan?

  What a great name.

• 2:06:15Speaker 02

  Yeah. So, German guy, he just competed against Brian Shaw, like, six weeks ago. He beat Brian.

• 2:06:21Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:06:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:06:22Joe Rogan?

  Someone beat Brian Shaw in an arm wrestling match?

• 2:06:25Speaker 02

  Leonidas, uh, young German champion, uh, they competed in Germany, it was a great fight.

• 2:06:31Joe Rogan?

  How big is Leonidas?

• 2:06:32Speaker 02

  Leonidas is pretty awesome, okay, Leonidas is-

• 2:06:35Joe Rogan?

  This is Leonidas and Brian Shaw?

• 2:06:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:06:38Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my goodness. That is crazy.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, right, and nobody's got a stronger grip than Brian either, Brian's grip is completely wild.

• 2:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Seeing someone beat Brian Shaw in anything physical seems ridiculous, it doesn't even make sense. How much does this guy weigh?

• 2:06:54Speaker 02

  He, he's like 285 when he's in good shape, but, again, stupid strength, he's like a bodybuilder slash arm wrestler. He's not-

• 2:07:04Joe Rogan?

  Picture of me reacting.

• 2:07:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, he's been in the sport like-

• 2:07:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god, he's gonna curl a dude.

• 2:07:11Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:07:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, crazy strength.

• 2:07:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, my god, he's massive.

• 2:07:18Speaker 02

  Massive.

• 2:07:19Joe Rogan?

  I just can't believe that he beat Brian Shaw, that is nuts.

• 2:07:22Speaker 02

  And that's where skill comes in.

• 2:07:23Joe Rogan?

  Well, because Brian Shaw's 100 pounds heavier than him.

• 2:07:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, but it's, it's levels, you know?

• 2:07:28Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:07:28Speaker 02

  And that's the thing, like, arm wrestling has enough technique to it, it's not just how strong you are. Look at, you can look at me, okay, I'm not on any of these guys' levels, they're all stronger than me. But I'm the number two in the world in the open division.

• 2:07:41Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:07:42Speaker 02

  Everybody in the top 50 is stronger than me, you know, but there's a, there's a high degree, that's a great picture.

• 2:07:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow, that is crazy. The size difference is so massive.

• 2:07:53Speaker 02

  But, I'll tell you, Brian probably has a higher potential than Leonidas.

• 2:07:58Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:07:58Speaker 02

  Brian's been arm wrestling less than two years.

• 2:08:00Joe Rogan?

  Right, and Leonidas been arm wrestling for-

• 2:08:02Speaker 02

  About five.

• 2:08:03Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:08:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, so-

• 2:08:04Joe Rogan?

  So, there's a lot of technique to it.

• 2:08:06Speaker 02

  There's a ton of technique.

• 2:08:07Joe Rogan?

  And a lot of just repetition, understanding the positions, where to go, what to do, how to hold, yeah.

• 2:08:13Speaker 02

  Miniature martial art.

• 2:08:15Joe Rogan?

  Interesting.

• 2:08:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:16Joe Rogan?

  Makes sense.

• 2:08:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:17Joe Rogan?

  Because there's some people that are not that, like Marcelo Garcia, for instance, not, not a physically imposing guy, has the craziest squeeze. Like, there's something about a squeeze, like, learning a position over and over and over again.

• 2:08:32Joe Rogan?

  Fine tuning it. That's what's interesting about power in general. It's like the repetition of movement creates more power.

• 2:08:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:08:40Joe Rogan?

  And some of it is genetic, but some of it is also just fine tuning that motion to just this like perfect chain of energy from the floor to the strike.

• 2:08:51Speaker 02

  And it's, and it's two of us. You know, and it's that interaction. It's what you're doing, what I'm doing.

• 2:08:58Joe Rogan?

  And the more you're doing it, the more you understand what to do and when to do it and what's happening and how to counter it and when to push, when to pull, when to hit the gas.

• 2:09:07Speaker 02

  And somebody's leading the dance. And someone's following.

• 2:09:11Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:09:11Speaker 02

  And the efficiency just changes very quickly and before you know it, you're gassed out.

• 2:09:15Joe Rogan?

  I'm sure you're aware of that guy in Australia, that Tom Havon.

• 2:09:19Speaker 02

  Tom Havon. Yeah.

• 2:09:20Joe Rogan?

  That's another one.

• 2:09:21Speaker 02

  He's another one.

• 2:09:22Joe Rogan?

  That's another one.

• 2:09:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:09:23Joe Rogan?

  Who's doing the stuff in his backyard with a fucking shirt on and jeans and work boots.

• 2:09:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:28Joe Rogan?

  And all the images, most of them are just his back.

• 2:09:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:33Speaker 02

  Awesome. It's just. He's another one. He's another one of these strength giants that lives out there that everybody kinda wants to pull in. I, I messaged Tom every once in a while.

• 2:09:41Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, look at this guy.

• 2:09:42Speaker 02

  Like dude, when are you coming in arm wrestling? When are you coming in?

• 2:09:45Joe Rogan?

  And what did he say?

• 2:09:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm optimistic. I'm optimistic.

• 2:09:49Joe Rogan?

  What, is he interested?

• 2:09:50Speaker 02

  I think so.

• 2:09:51Joe Rogan?

  Well, he's also crazy lean too, which is really weird.

• 2:09:54Speaker 02

  He's a strange character.

• 2:09:56Joe Rogan?

  Oh, the strangest because like this is most of his images are his back.

• 2:10:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:01Joe Rogan?

  Which I don't understand why he's doing that.

• 2:10:03Speaker 02

  Well, I had the theory that he was an SF guy. You know, I, I had the theory that he belongs to some organization that requires him to be discreet.

• 2:10:12Joe Rogan?

  But there are photos of him.

• 2:10:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, not many.

• 2:10:15Joe Rogan?

  This, but there's plenty where you could see his face.

• 2:10:18Speaker 02

  Yes, but he doesn't go around broadcasting it too much, does he? I don't know. Look, I, I don't know what he is. I, I've, I've asked and guys say he's not. I don't know what the deal is. But for whatever reason, and he could, right? This is a guy who could probably again, go to any one of the strength disciplines and compete happily.

• 2:10:34Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. Cause he's almost 400 pounds, he's six foot eight.

• 2:10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:39Joe Rogan?

  And fucking shredded. See if you could find some of the images, there are images on this page of him with his shirt off, doing stuff where he's like walking with, you know, doing like farmer carries. So there's some images of him with his shirt off.

• 2:10:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:54Joe Rogan?

  Like there he is.

• 2:10:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, he's a Brian Shaw type, he's a Smayev type. You know, just where the baseline level of strength.

• 2:11:05Joe Rogan?

  But looks more athletic than those guys. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, it's, he's not as massive. He's massive, but he looks massive in a more mobile way. Do you know what I'm saying?

• 2:11:18Speaker 02

  I do, but you know, Brian Shaw, one strong man, and like, there's a lot of athleticism in strong man.

• 2:11:24Joe Rogan?

  Oh, for sure, I'm not saying there's not. I mean, but Brian Shaw looks like an ape. He looks like a giant ape, whereas this guy looks like a super athlete.

• 2:11:33Speaker 02

  He does.

• 2:11:34Joe Rogan?

  You know, he looks like, like that image of him with his shirt off on the far right, like, he's shredded.

• 2:11:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:39Joe Rogan?

  He looks different.

• 2:11:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:11:43Joe Rogan?

  And it seems like he's just working on his strength. He's just like constantly.

• 2:11:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:49Joe Rogan?

  Look at his fucking forearm muscles, like, what the fuck is going on with the, the top of the forearm where it meets the bicep? What the fuck is that?

• 2:11:57Speaker 02

  Tom, if you're watching this, come to East vs. West, buddy, we love you, we love you.

• 2:12:01Joe Rogan?

  Has he ever done anything?

• 2:12:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:03Joe Rogan?

  Any arm wrestling stuff?

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know he has, because, uh, so down in Australia, the, the president there, Phil Rasmussen, um, he's good friends with him. And I know that they're arm wrestling a little bit, but yeah, there's something with him where he doesn't kinda, he doesn't wanna kinda show up. I think, I don't know what it is with some of these people, where they, they have this amazing ability, but they don't really pop. You know, um, do you know who Eric Spoto is?

• 2:12:28Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:12:29Speaker 02

  Eric Spoto's a guy out of Vegas, um, former, uh, number one in the world bench guy. Okay, like, he broke the world record for bench, okay? But he didn't go to a powerlifting meet until he could break the record. He didn't even show up. He just showed up and he beat the world, he was, he was doing the world record in his basement.

• 2:12:47Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:12:48Speaker 02

  And, and everybody's like, you know, Eric, why don't you go and make it legit? You know? But these guys exist out there, these guys in their basements, or, you know, wherever they're living, and they, and they, for whatever reason, that, they don't show up until they're the best. Yeah, Eric, this guy. Yeah, and he's an amazing arm wrestler, too. Same theory, though, like, it was hard to get him into competition, but I, I personally know that he's like one of the strongest arm wrestlers. Um, but he doesn't compete. Doesn't compete, yeah, yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, strength's amazing, man. It's fun to chase strength.

• 2:13:27Joe Rogan?

  It's not everything in your sport, though, which is interesting.

• 2:13:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, strength combat. So we're a combat sport that relies heavily on strength.

• 2:13:36Joe Rogan?

  It's interesting you consider it a combat sport.

• 2:13:38Speaker 02

  It's a hundred percent combat sport.

• 2:13:40Joe Rogan?

  Why so? Because it's not applicable to real fighting. So why do you call it a combat sport?

• 2:13:45Speaker 02

  I mean, real fighting is hard to define anyways. I mean.

• 2:13:47Joe Rogan?

  Is it?

• 2:13:48Speaker 02

  Well, there's levels, you know, there's levels of real fighting. I mean, what we look at, I love UFC. It's cool, but we invented guns long ago.

• 2:13:56Joe Rogan?

  Of course, but that's not a sport. I mean, it is a sport in terms of like being able to shoot accurately and stuff like that, but you're using an external device, using a weapon.

• 2:14:06Speaker 02

  Right.

• 2:14:07Joe Rogan?

  With your physical body, combat sports, why would you consider arm wrestling to be a combat sport?

• 2:14:14Speaker 02

  Well, because it's between two people and there's so much interplay. And, you know, there's not the rigidity of a lot of sports that measure strength. Okay, it's very much adjustment, adaption, decision making.

• 2:14:35Speaker 02

  Lot of games, a lot of technique, a lot of adaptation. You can be super strong, but if you can't adapt, if you can't think, if you can't speak, if you can't play.

• 2:14:46Joe Rogan?

  Right. But in that sense, do you consider football combat sport?

• 2:14:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:14:50Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 2:14:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. There's two sides and you're fighting. It's metaphor. Okay, look at all this stuff. I love the UFC, but I consider it a combat sport, you know?

• 2:15:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, definitely.

• 2:15:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:03Joe Rogan?

  It's a combat sport.

• 2:15:03Speaker 02

  Hundred percent, probably one of the best examples of.

• 2:15:06Joe Rogan?

  The primary example.

• 2:15:07Speaker 02

  If I was gonna put together like, you know, the ultimate like, you know, we're going to take out like, if we're gonna go to war against another nation or whatever, you know, yeah, for sure, I'm looking at UFC guys, for sure, I'm looking at football guys, you know, looking at whoever can get the job done and there's a lot of pieces to that.

• 2:15:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, that's different. I mean, look, if they're going to war with just bodies, only using your body, that's one thing, but you know, obviously with war, weapons, rule above all.

• 2:15:37Speaker 02

  Absolutely. I think that that's where we're at these days, so.

• 2:15:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, now we're with thumbs because now it's basically drones.

• 2:15:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:45Joe Rogan?

  You know, I mean, that's the, you're gonna get to a point soon where human beings are gonna be irrelevant.

• 2:15:52Speaker 02

  So when it comes to sport, arm wrestling is falls, for me, it falls into that combat sector, you know, where two people are engaging in a fight, a metaphorical fight against each other.

• 2:16:05Joe Rogan?

  I get it.

• 2:16:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. You'll, I mean, if it wasn't a combat sport, then the stronger guy would normally win, and it normally does, but as soon as you, I can get like, if I could get like a guy who's been practicing arm wrestling for like four or five years, they'll beat anybody, anybody that's not practicing. It's the same thing as like a jujitsu guy. If you, if you give a jujitsu guy like four or five years on the mat, and you get Brian Shaw, or like some giant come in, who's gonna win?

• 2:16:37Joe Rogan?

  It really depends. I could teach Brian Shaw a few things real quick.

• 2:16:42Speaker 02

  Of course you could.

• 2:16:43Joe Rogan?

  He could strike pretty much anybody.

• 2:16:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, and Brian Shaw's an extreme example.

• 2:16:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, but someone your size, yeah, it's like size, aside the sizes commensurate, yeah, the person who's training.

• 2:16:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:16:54Joe Rogan?

  They're gonna win every time, and, and small people dominate big people all the time.

• 2:16:58Speaker 02

  Right, cuz it's that technical, it's that skill-based.

• 2:17:02Joe Rogan?

  It's just, it's also repetition, understanding the positions, understanding mistakes, understand, you know, knowing where to be and what to do, how to flow, how to move with someone so you're not just going strength for strength against them, you're flowing with them.

• 2:17:16Speaker 02

  I think, I think of it as a combat sport as well because I try and make it that way.

• 2:17:21Joe Rogan?

  Right, well, you definitely do, and you definitely make it like psychologically.

• 2:17:25Speaker 02

  I try.

• 2:17:26Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:26Speaker 02

  I try and pull all that stuff in.

• 2:17:28Joe Rogan?

  But you have an extensive military experience, too. Like, you started off, like, when, what, what is the Canadian version of what you, what, what branch of the military you were in?

• 2:18:01Joe Rogan?

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• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  I was with a unit called JTF Two for 16 out of my 20 years. Yeah. It was great. I'd still be there if I could, really, but it got too complicated and I had to leave. But, uh, yeah. How so? What do you mean? Uh, it was, you know, I don't want to say it was entirely one thing or another, but it really probably had a lot to do with arm wrestling and the visibility of arm wrestling. Like, I've been arm wrestling my whole life, but, uh, geez, it was 19, I think, um, oh, sorry, 19, it was 2014. And we were on ESPN at the time, and up till that point, I was not declared military in the public eye.

• 2:19:49Speaker 02

  Like, I was a farmer, as far as everybody was concerned. You know, I tried to play the operational security as well as I could and, uh, you know, um, I was an active, active JTF Two member. But there were a lot of concerns about the growth of arm wrestling for me and my, you know, exposure. And, you know, part of being an operator is, you know, you have to, you have to be anonymous. You get on an airplane, you can't have people taking pictures of you. Oh, right. Right. So arm wrestling because of where I was and it was on ESPN and going further. They're like, Devin, you have to choose. And I'm like, oh, my God, I've been arm wrestling since I was a kid. So the long and short of that is they offered me a year off, no pay. I took it.

• 2:20:33Speaker 02

  I took it. I took the year off and we were, I was gathering apples and eating sardines and sending my kids to school with dried apples and me and my wife were like, oh, my God, are we crazy? Like, are we crazy? Just so you try to make it in arm wrestling? It was complicated. It was complicated. Yeah, I'd done like seven tours and

• 2:20:57Speaker 02

  it's weird when you do a lot of tours, you know, things start to gray out a little bit. I hope so. Everything is about mission in life, right? Like, everything. Like, if you don't have a good mission, your life is going to fall to shit. And as soon as you start to question any kind of that,

• 2:21:21Speaker 02

  and you know, you play in that realm long enough, most guys start to, at the beginning, I mean, you're just either so patriotic or, you know, just so down to, you know, help your country or whatever, or the people around you that you don't really, you're undeterred. And I think that probably sometime around that point in my career, maybe I was struggling slightly and that combined with the, them telling me that I wasn't able to do something that was like the only thing I did, you know, when I left work, was kind of the thing that kind of make me take kind of a stand in my life

• 2:22:03Speaker 02

  that I was gonna, you know, follow sport instead of war.

• 2:22:10Speaker 02

  Sport's beautiful. Sport's very clearly building civilization. And war, you know, the further you go and it just gets to a level of murk where you're not sure. So, yeah, so I- When you say you're not sure, you're not sure if you should be doing-

• 2:22:25Joe Rogan?

  What you're doing, you're not sure if the mission should be happening.

• 2:22:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, because I think most people join the military and stay in the military. Because they genuinely believe that they're benefiting mankind or civilization to some degree. It's a big part of it. Not, nobody's there for the money. You know, I mean, somebody at the beginning, some people are because we're broke, right? But I mean, once you spend like 10 years, I mean, uh, you're, you're probably okay and. Yeah, so it start, I mean, you, you, you, you play enough in that world and it starts to get confusing that you're, maybe you're not doing the right thing. So, uh, and look, I, I loved my work. I thought it was great. Loved all the people I worked with, some best people in the world. But yeah, it came to a point where there was some issues.

• 2:23:13Speaker 02

  You know, with opsec, not even in my career, but in others, and it kind of trickled down into unipolicy and they shut down everybody's extracurricular. And yeah, they're like, David, you can't arm wrestle anymore. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm a current world champion. Like I, I am currently the open world champion and you're telling me I can't do it. So I was like, yeah, we're gonna have to come up with some other solution. They're like, yeah, okay, years leave without pay. Here's your final offer. So we took it and my wife and I were like, oh my God. So yeah, so I, I went from making money and I had, and I didn't, we didn't have money, you know.

• 2:23:49Joe Rogan?

  But you were getting by.

• 2:23:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, getting by. Uh, but it meant that on that year, I like had to win. It was no longer like my hobby. It was like, if I don't win, like my kids are like not, I'm gonna have to sell the house or like I'm gonna have to. It was a gamble. Uh, it worked out.

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  What was that stress like?

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  Dude, it was so wild.

• 2:24:11Joe Rogan?

  How old were you at the time?

• 2:24:13Speaker 02

  Uh, okay, that was 2014, so I'd be 39.

• 2:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:24:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:18Joe Rogan?

  So you're already older as an athlete.

• 2:24:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:24:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:24:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was totally trippy. I remember being so stressed out.

• 2:24:27Speaker 02

  I was, I was, so it was a, it was a WAL finals, okay? I was in the two twenty-five pound division. Twenty thousand bucks for first place. Uh, right hand, left hand. And, um, and I had a great sponsor, okay? They were matching, uh, my pay. So anything I won, they doubled it and they were doing some other stuff too. So, but, but if I lost, I got nothing, right? So I'm, I'm in the back, I'm in the back in the warm-up area and I'm, I'm breathing. I'm getting ready. I'm going against this guy Ron Bath in the finals. And, uh, longtime mentor of mine, guys like my older brothers, guy Mike Gould, comes over to me, he's like, Devin, he's like, he's like, you used to run the practice when you were eighteen. He's like, you're just here because you love it. Don't worry about it. Just go and have fun.

• 2:25:12Speaker 02

  And I'm like, okay, you're right. You're right. And I went out and I just had fun and worked out. But, but yeah, so I ended up, uh, I ended up, um, doing my years leave without pay. As soon as I was taking my leave, they're like, we want you to declare. Like, we want you to tell people that you're special forces now. So I went from be-

• 2:25:32Joe Rogan?

  Why, why did they want you to do that?

• 2:25:33Speaker 02

  Because they pushed me into recruiting.

• 2:25:35Joe Rogan?

  Hmm.

• 2:25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. So when I got back, I tried again. I think they'd already made up their mind. Uh, when I got back, I'm like, yeah, can I have my old job back? And they're like, you're gonna keep arm wrestling? And I'm like, well, you know? And they're like, okay, you're going to recruiting. And I was on, so at that point, I was on my nineteenth year, okay? And you only, in the Canadian forces at that time, now I think you need twenty-five, but it, twenty years continuous service and you get like a base pension. So I did, my nineteenth to twentieth year, I went around Canada and I told people how great the JTF was. And that was it. That was my career, done, yeah.

• 2:26:16Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:26:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, now full-time armrest for the last ten, ten years.

• 2:26:20Joe Rogan?

  What a jump at thirty-nine.

• 2:26:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:26:23Joe Rogan?

  That had to be so fucking nerve wracking.

• 2:26:25Speaker 02

  It was, I, I just, you know, I thought it was very selfish of me, you know. I, I thought that I was being very irresponsible. I thought, you know, because I really believed in soldiering, I did. And, you know, to leave it, you know, made me question very much whether I was doing the right thing with my life. And, and then on a family level, I was like, I'm being, am I being irresponsible chasing this, you know, thing that I love to do and it's costing my, my kids, you know, their, their university education, it's costing my kids, you know.

• 2:27:05Speaker 02

  But yeah, we, we, we believed in it, we went for it and it's all worked out. It's all worked out. I mean, it's been a second life for me.

• 2:27:19Speaker 02

  I still love all the guys I work with, some of them are still working, my God. Guys do like thirty-year careers in the Special Forces, it's crazy, it's crazy. Yeah, a lot of the guys that I went through with, they're now in senior positions and I bump into them every once in a while. I just tell them how much I love them and how great they are and, yeah. I live, I live a simple, simple life now. It, it's beautiful, you know, like, uh, before, life was very complicated, going on tours, you know, Special Forces life is, is super complex, you know, you're, it's, it's difficult to balance. How my wife and I made it through that, I have no idea. I have no idea, but we did. But, uh, yeah, now, now I'm at home every day, I wake up unless I'm on, you know, going to some arm wrestling tournament.

• 2:28:04Speaker 02

  It's beautiful.

• 2:28:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, I gotta think that the discipline that came from that life transferred over to the discipline of becoming a great arm wrestler.

• 2:28:13Speaker 02

  I think I'm still learning today from my career. I'm still digesting some of the greatest days and some of the stuff that I did, I'm still integrating it into my life. Yeah, it's a great teacher.

• 2:28:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, you can't fail.

• 2:28:29Speaker 02

  No, you can't.

• 2:28:30Joe Rogan?

  It's just like. The ultimate consequences, the ultimate stakes.

• 2:28:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's beautiful. I, I, I love the concept of soldiering. I think I, I have it as one of the highest things that you can do. Like there's being a mother and there's being a fighter, you know? And I, I personally have always believed that one of the highest orders of fighters are the guys in the military. You know, the SF guys like it's, it's, it's, it's pretty awesome.

• 2:28:59Speaker 02

  But, uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's. I try and take all those lessons and bring them into the sport. And I try to, um. Well, I try and let that chapter of my life, you know, feed and inspire me today.

• 2:29:16Joe Rogan?

  Do you talk much about your tours?

• 2:29:18Speaker 02

  I, I don't a lot.

• 2:29:22Speaker 02

  I, it's not that, uh, you know, anything matters at this point. I mean, it's all like, it's all in the past and, you know, there's nothing that I could really say now that influences too much. But, um, yeah, I don't make it part of my general promotion too much, but everybody knows that I was, you know? It's a, it's a, it's a wild time in my life, you know? Uh, it's a huge chapter, you know, the military stuff, the tours that I did, you know? We, we did a lot of work in Afghanistan. So, you know, the highlight of my career is working in Kandahar. You know, working with the American forces, working with the indigenous forces, you know, we, JTF does like counterterrorism.

• 2:30:05Speaker 02

  So we're doing hits, doing hits at night, you know, going out and various kinds. But, yeah, it was always funny to me. People would, because people didn't know I was, you know, widely. I mean, oh, Devon scared to come to this tournament, you know? And I was like, motherfucker, I am in a goddamn war right now. I am not scared to go to Nemrah Cup, you know? But, yeah.

• 2:30:30Joe Rogan?

  That's funny.

• 2:30:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was.

• 2:30:32Joe Rogan?

  That must've been hilarious.

• 2:30:32Speaker 02

  It was so funny for me. I'm like, you have no idea how scared I am right now, what I'm doing, you know? I say war, war is a, war is a wild thing, you know? The degree that it psychologically affected me is, uh, it's been, it's been me, you know? I think that a lot of who I am was shaped by combat, you know? By the fear, um, and, um, and the lacking that I had, like, the, the, the, the not being enough to, to be, everything I could be in combat, uh, shaped me so much, you know?

• 2:31:14Speaker 02

  Um, you know, when you go on a tour, and there's different people, there's different dudes, okay? I know some dudes who really don't get scared, they really don't, like, they're like, so down for it, like, they can't wait to go on the next mission, you know? Uh, and I was kind of the guy who was like, completely scared shitless, but I'd go anyways, you know? Um, and what I kind of learned to do, which I have a great value in, is kind of the separation of, of myself. You know, I am a very different person, day to day, than when I compete, or when I, for example, went and actually did the job, you know?

• 2:31:58Speaker 02

  I, I would completely transform my character, and this is something that I learned. The first tour was hard, you know, you're a regular dude with a regular brain and a regular mindset, doing this terrifying thing, um, and then, you know, you come back and you, you know, you've seen a lot of shit and you, you got PTSD, you wake up and your heart's going, and it's like an injury. And you can let an injury kill you, or you can heal and develop some kind of resilience to it. And I think that I, to some degree, did that by learning how to become a different person. Uh, people call it a switch, you know, where you like... All your values, the person that you are, is different.

• 2:32:43Speaker 02

  You're not the same person when you're out in the field than you are when you're back on base. And I created a persona that loved it, that looked forward to it, that lusted for it. Because that's what you need to be to actually perform properly.

• 2:33:01Joe Rogan?

  When you say you created a persona,

• 2:33:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:33:02Joe Rogan?

  What was the steps? Like, how did you do that?

• 2:33:06Speaker 02

  Well, I think that one of the things is to really wrap your mind. I think the first step is to wrap your mind about the worst possible outcomes with any fear. And I don't know if a psychologist is gonna tell you to do this. But, like, for example, like, I'll take it a step back and we'll talk about jumping, okay? I don't like to jump at airplanes, okay? Didn't really, you know, it's kinda scary. So I had a certain fear there, okay? Now I got over it. I've got, you know, I've got hundreds of jumps. But what I did was I used to watch parachute fails over and over and over and over and over.

• 2:33:47Speaker 02

  And I just kinda desensitized myself to it and kinda became okay with it. And I think to a certain degree, I did the same thing with the overall concept of worst-case scenario with the war. You know, kind of accepted that I'm gonna die, it's okay. I believe in the cause, believe in the mission, it's okay. So now I have to solve how to actually, how do I get to the best performance state to do that? And you have to love what you do. You gotta love what you do. So you have to find a way to love the violence. You have to find a way to love the aggression. You have to find a way to... And I think it's inside all of us.

• 2:34:28Speaker 02

  I think that the person that you are is, you know, who you've kinda created for a certain circumstance. But the truth is, is you might act a little bit different when you're sitting at the table with your mother than when you're sitting at the table with your best friend to when you're going out and doing a hit on the front lines, you know? And it's a different psychology that's gonna perform best, you know, in each of those. And it's learning that you are not necessarily one thing. You are whatever you wanna be. You know, and you can, you can change that. You can, and you can become that. And the more time that you spend as that role, the more you roll it out, the more you build it out, the more you're comfortable with it, the more you might even look forward to doing it again. You know?

• 2:35:12Speaker 02

  Um, I certainly rolled that psychology into my arm wrestling.

• 2:35:17Joe Rogan?

  What's interesting you say, I don't know if a psychologist would tell you to do that. I don't think a psychologist would have the ability to understand what that experience even is. There's one thing about theory and about books and about learning in school. There's a giant difference between that and application in a real world scenario where you might lose your life and you have to take a life. That's, I don't think there's a psychologist in the world that could explain that. That's why I'm always very hesitant about even sports psychologists or fight psychologists that like teach people how to prepare for fighting. I'm like, you could probably give a fighter some tools, but for you to actually tell them what needs to be done,

• 2:35:59Joe Rogan?

  if you're not doing that, how can you? What, you're, you, it's just theory.

• 2:36:05Speaker 02

  Theory.

• 2:36:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and there's a giant difference between theory and application where you are trying to keep your fucking brain together in the craziest thing a human being can do.

• 2:36:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:36:16Joe Rogan?

  Parachute down and gun people down. Like what, what is fucking crazier on earth than that? I say nothing.

• 2:36:24Speaker 02

  Ah, well, look, I, I used to have that attitude as well. Um, but I, I've, I've changed my attitude when it comes to that. I think that it's about, um, excellence and mastery. I think that that's what life is about. And if you're in the soldiering realm, yeah, that's, that's excellence and mastery in that field. But I think wherever you are, if you're a businessman, if you're an artist, if, if you're a farmer, um, there's levels. You can be, you can be a farmer that, you know, has weeds and, you know, it kind of, you know, doesn't get up at the crack of dawn or whatever. And then you can be a completely psychotic farmer that does, and I think that you're on that level.

• 2:37:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:04Speaker 02

  You're just, you're on that level of mastery. And I think that that is what life is really about, is finding that thing that you're comfortable doing and becoming a master at it.

• 2:37:15Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:37:16Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:16Speaker 02

  And now I am the Bonnie Blue of arm wrestling.

• 2:37:22Speaker 02

  Come one, come all. I got, I got the first base with everybody.

• 2:37:26Joe Rogan?

  I gotta ask you about this, and this is a silly thing to ask you, because you said Kandahar. Have you heard of the legend of the Kandahar giant?

• 2:37:34Speaker 02

  Of course.

• 2:37:35Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, what did you hear? When did you hear?

• 2:37:38Speaker 02

  Well, I've seen. Okay. There's some freaks out there, man. There's some freaks. So, yeah, I mean, I've seen the YouTube video, I've, I've heard about it from other people, but legit, legit, okay? Hard for me, because I was far away, okay? I was probably about 200 meters away. We were doing a mobility exercise, okay? Mobility, I hate mobility. Okay, mobility was my least favorite op. Mobility, basically, you get in a bunch of trucks and you kinda roll out and you kinda look for a fight, okay? So we were doing like a two-week mobility in this, this region, kinda north, north of the Panjway.

• 2:38:23Speaker 02

  I don't remember exactly what it was called, it was just surrounded by mountains, this big valley. And we were rolling around, and, um, and so there was a village that we were going to check out, and I'm, I'm like a gunner, okay? So, I don't know everything that's going on. I'm a dude on a machine gun, okay? But I can see everything that's happening, I kinda know what we're doing, all, but I know that there's a meeting. And what they have is they have these warlords. It doesn't, it's not the same kinda political system or anything that we have in like North America. Kinda, the baddest dude in the region becomes in charge, okay?

• 2:39:05Speaker 02

  So we were meeting with one of the local warlords. And so the town was like 500 meters away. They drove out from the town about 500 meters, and we had our, our trucks about 200 meters from the meeting point. Our officer and a couple dudes went forward and were looking. This guy, I mean, he was maybe twice as big. He was huge. He was a massive dude.

• 2:39:35Joe Rogan?

  Like how big?

• 2:39:36Speaker 02

  I, I, I think he was eight feet. I think he was eight foot something. It's embarrassing. It's like, Devon, you're crazy. He's big.

• 2:39:44Joe Rogan?

  How, and he was 200 meters away?

• 2:39:45Speaker 02

  He was about 200 meters away, but I can see the guys. We've got, we got optics. He was, our officer was probably somewhere between, at the bottom of his chest. Great big Afghan dude. Big beard, big dude, big dude. And his lackeys around him were normal sized. Great big warlord. So they're out there. There's big people. There's-

• 2:40:08Joe Rogan?

  Eight feet is nuts.

• 2:40:10Speaker 02

  I have personally seen people who were probably over eight feet.

• 2:40:15Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:40:15Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  In Afghanistan?

• 2:40:17Speaker 02

  No, no. I saw these guys up north, northern Canada, Cree. I was up in Ojibumo, okay, this Cree village.

• 2:40:28Speaker 02

  I remember walking up, I'm there for arm wrestling. We're having an arm wrestling tournament. And I'm looking up, we're walking up the stairs in this hockey rink and this dude, I'm like, that's a really big dude. By the time I got there, I was about, me, and I'm like 6'5", I was about at his nipple.

• 2:40:43Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:40:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, big, big, big hands, big, long hands, like, out of the goonies, like, misshapen face. I'm like, my god. I'm like, like, how big are you? He's like, just laughed at me. And he's like, my brother, my, he's like, my dad's eight foot 11. He's like, like-

• 2:40:59Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:40:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, big.

• 2:41:01Joe Rogan?

  My dad's eight foot 11?

• 2:41:03Speaker 02

  I'm telling you, there's big people. And, and people don't know about them. Guinness doesn't know about them. They live up in the woods. There's big people out there. And not all-

• 2:41:10Joe Rogan?

  What is that guy, Jamie?

• 2:41:11Speaker 03

  He's from that region, apparently. I don't know how to say that, like, Edward Bopri?

• 2:41:16Joe Rogan?

  So there's just giants that live in that region?

• 2:41:19Speaker 02

  Eight foot three. The Cree are very big people. And the thing is, is when they get to eat what they're supposed to eat, the problem is so many of them eat junk now, right? Because they, you know, they grow up on the-

• 2:41:30Speaker 03

  367 pounds, maybe? Or 367, sorry.

• 2:41:32Joe Rogan?

  Eight foot two and a half, 367 pounds. Age 33.

• 2:41:38Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:41:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, I forget the name of these brothers, but there, there's a bunch of them. Yeah, yeah, there's some weird genetics out there, you know?

• 2:41:46Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:47Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we're gonna try and swab them, I'll give it to Ryan before you know it.

• 2:41:53Joe Rogan?

  But, so this guy in Afghanistan, was this, uh, one isolated incident?

• 2:41:57Speaker 02

  I saw one. Yeah, I just saw the one.

• 2:42:01Joe Rogan?

  And he had to be eight feet tall?

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  He is big, he's big, yeah, he's big, big human being, far out of the standard.

• 2:42:08Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:08Speaker 02

  And he was a warlord.

• 2:42:10Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:42:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, they're big, they're big people out there.

• 2:42:14Joe Rogan?

  And so the Kandahar giant story, the guy is supposed to be even bigger than that?

• 2:42:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I heard it.

• 2:42:20Joe Rogan?

  Do you believe it?

• 2:42:21Speaker 02

  Uh, I, I do, yeah, I do, there's freaks out there, there are.

• 2:42:26Joe Rogan?

  But this guy supposedly had like six fingers and six toes?

• 2:42:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, I believe, I believe that stuff, I, I just, I mean, I think that we get so used to normal people and every once in a while, there's a weirdo, um.

• 2:42:40Joe Rogan?

  And these people are not being studied, there's no one there, like, that, that region of the country is extremely remote.

• 2:42:47Speaker 02

  Extremely, extremely, like, they don't, it's, it's like going back to like the 15th century. Like, there's, there's motorcycles and some people have gas, I mean, but they, they don't have electricity, um, yeah, there's not even really roads, yeah.

• 2:43:03Joe Rogan?

  And there was this one guy who was a warlord that was eight feet tall?

• 2:43:07Speaker 02

  I saw him.

• 2:43:08Joe Rogan?

  You saw him?

• 2:43:08Speaker 02

  I saw him, yeah, from a distance, but, I mean, there's no way he was any shorter, like, he, he was huge, he was a massive, and he was broad across his shoulders, too, he was probably twice as broad, um, massive, massive human, yeah.

• 2:43:24Joe Rogan?

  What was that like, just seeing something like that?

• 2:43:26Speaker 02

  It's wild, man, yeah, you know, it's, it's neat, um.

• 2:43:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. It was shocking, but it's neat how they structure their leadership. That's the guy in charge.

• 2:43:42Joe Rogan?

  The most massive.

• 2:43:43Speaker 02

  I hope he was a nice guy.

• 2:43:45Joe Rogan?

  Probably wasn't.

• 2:43:46Speaker 02

  I don't know. I don't know. I mean, he seemed reasonable, like we didn't get in the fight. Like, we didn't, there was no fight there. So we worked it out, whatever it was. But, yeah, there are anomalies and it's neat. It's kind of cool that he made it to a leadership position, so he must have been a smart guy, too. And he must have been a good guy, because I don't think a dick could have been in charge.

• 2:44:09Joe Rogan?

  So did you hear of that story, the Kandahar giant story? So supposedly what happened is it's American military guys encountered this guy in the mountains.

• 2:44:19Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:20Joe Rogan?

  That was just absolutely enormous. They said he was like 12 feet tall.

• 2:44:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, what happened with Anethlim, you know?

• 2:44:28Joe Rogan?

  Right, that's the thing. The thing is, supposedly, they had six fingers and six toes as well.

• 2:44:34Speaker 02

  Look, I believe that things come to visit and sometimes things get left behind and who knows? Who knows? There's a good chance that he's maybe just a little bit closer to all that. Or somehow a recessive and a recessive somehow found their ways together and there you go.

• 2:44:55Joe Rogan?

  And somehow there's a surviving population of these people still in the world that are undiscovered.

• 2:45:01Speaker 02

  It's a beautiful part of the world, that region, perfect climate, super fertile. Like, if you were gonna, like, if there was nothing, what a beautiful place to start life. Afghanistan is a beautiful country, so rich for agriculture. The climate is perfect, you know, with the mountains and the rivers, the seasons, it's tough to beat. You know, I would understand why people would fight so hard to have that territory. And, you know, if you were a giant, 12 feet tall, and you could live anywhere you wanted, you know, in a valley where the rivers fed your land, I could pick there, yeah.

• 2:45:40Joe Rogan?

  Did you hear that story? Story when you were over there?

• 2:45:42Speaker 02

  That story is famous. Yeah, and I asked around, I've never met anybody who was involved in that op. I haven't, but.

• 2:45:51Joe Rogan?

  But it seems like a story that has something to it. Because there's too many people telling that story. There's only only one story like that.

• 2:46:01Speaker 02

  There are a lot of stories.

• 2:46:02Joe Rogan?

  There's more stories like that?

• 2:46:04Speaker 02

  There are.

• 2:46:05Joe Rogan?

  I mean, I should say there's only one story like that online that people repeat over and over again. This one encounter.

• 2:46:11Speaker 02

  There are fascinating stories out there. Uh, some that I'm closer to.

• 2:46:16Joe Rogan?

  Like what?

• 2:46:17Speaker 02

  Probably the most interesting story that I'm in any way kind of close to is, um, from that region of the world, and this is a whole nother can of worms, but it's, um, it's so weird, uh, it's demonic possession, you know? We've, we had a guy, a guy, he was my, he, I, I worked with him very closely for, a super smart guy. Great guy, awesome dude, awesome soldier. And, uh, and yeah, I mean, he got possessed by a demon. He started speaking in tongues, he knew everything about everybody, he could speak different languages. Uh, he, uh,

• 2:46:54Speaker 02

  he knew everything about everybody's life, he knew all their sins.

• 2:46:57Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:46:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, he knew, he knew all the sins people did, even from their childhood.

• 2:47:01Joe Rogan?

  What?

• 2:47:02Speaker 02

  That he got taken to, uh, he got taken to the medical, through the medical system before they knew it. He was out of the medical system and he was with, uh, the padre, the like, uh, the priest that comes along on some military missions. They, uh, they did a, what do you, what do you call that when you cleanse a demon from, uh, what do you call that?

• 2:47:22Joe Rogan?

  Exorcism.

• 2:47:22Speaker 02

  They did an exorcism. He, he, they sent him back to Canada, he, uh, he's now watched by the church, he has to go and check in with the church every, every, every week. I don't know what to tell you, Joe. There's a lot, I don't know. Uh, but, yeah, and the, and the, and the crazy thing was, is the priest who did the exorcism said he, he knew the demon. He, he'd already exorcis- exorcis- he'd already done the exorcism like, three or four times.

• 2:47:50Joe Rogan?

  On different people?

• 2:47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, that demon was like popping in and out of guys.

• 2:47:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so I look, I, Joe, I don't know what's going on in the world. I'm an arm wrestler.

• 2:47:59Joe Rogan?

  But this guy knew things about you?

• 2:48:01Speaker 02

  No, I wasn't on the tour, but the unit's very small, okay? I, all the guys who were there, I have very close personal relationships with, and there's no reason for me not to trust them. And this is the, all the, and, and the guy who had it done to him, I'm very close with, like, he comes over to my, he was my stall partner. Okay, uh, and I see him all the time.

• 2:48:22Joe Rogan?

  When you say had it done to, the guy who was possessed?

• 2:48:24Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:48:24Joe Rogan?

  You knew him?

• 2:48:25Speaker 02

  I know him very well.

• 2:48:26Joe Rogan?

  And what did he say about it?

• 2:48:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, he doesn't like it very much. Yeah, he's, it scared him a lot. Yeah, yeah.

• 2:48:35Joe Rogan?

  Does he recall being able to speak different languages?

• 2:48:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, he can remember it. Yeah, he can remember.

• 2:48:40Joe Rogan?

  But he can't speak those languages anymore?

• 2:48:43Speaker 02

  No, it was like, he was aware of everything happening, but he was, like, he was a, a visitor, he was like, there for the ride.

• 2:48:49Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 2:48:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, apparently, he, when it started, it started to like, it started, he was freezing, he was locking up. And then, he was locking, and then he started speaking in tongues, and then he was like, fully... Joe, it's, it's, it's, it's weird stuff out there, man, there's a lot of things that we don't understand, right? And, um, yeah, uh, yeah, I don't know what to tell you. I don't, it wasn't me, uh, but I trust the story because I know the people.

• 2:49:21Speaker 02

  I know them, I know them very, I could hook you up with them, you want to talk to them? Tell you.

• 2:49:25Joe Rogan?

  I'm nervous.

• 2:49:26Speaker 02

  Tell you all about it.

• 2:49:27Joe Rogan?

  I don't think I would.

• 2:49:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:49:31Joe Rogan?

  And how long was he possessed for?

• 2:49:33Speaker 02

  He was possessed, I think, for a couple of weeks. Maybe like a week or ten days, something like that. Wasn't super long, but he was all messed up afterwards. Like, he got, like, he was done working after that.

• 2:49:46Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:49:47Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:49:47Joe Rogan?

  He retired?

• 2:49:48Speaker 02

  Medical.

• 2:49:49Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:49:50Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:49:51Joe Rogan?

  But psychologically, like, it wasn't like he had a schizophrenic break. So, whatever it was, he came back from.

• 2:49:59Speaker 02

  I don't know that schizophrenia can explain the languages. I don't know that it's-

• 2:50:04Joe Rogan?

  No, I don't think it can, but what I'm saying is they didn't diagnose him as having-

• 2:50:08Speaker 02

  No, the diagnosis was he had to go to church.

• 2:50:11Joe Rogan?

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:50:12Joe Rogan?

  Literally.

• 2:50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Right? Isn't that wild?

• 2:50:15Joe Rogan?

  That's so crazy.

• 2:50:16Speaker 02

  That's one of the craziest ones that I've seen personally.

• 2:50:19Joe Rogan?

  Have you heard of other experiences like that, where people have been possessed?

• 2:50:24Speaker 02

  That's it.

• 2:50:25Joe Rogan?

  We would think that if a demon was gonna visit someone, war would be the place to visit him.

• 2:50:28Speaker 02

  And, and that's it. Ancient. That was in Iraq. That was in Urbil. Okay, and, I mean, that's an ancient, ancient part of the world.

• 2:50:37Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:50:38Speaker 02

  So, whatever's, like, history is long and misunderstood. And, um, something's going on. Something's going on. I can't explain it. And I've kinda just been like, I'm kinda like, at this point in my life, I'm like, whatever. I know I don't know everything. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna do wrist curls in my basement.

• 2:51:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. He's awesome. Martin, if you're watching, come over, let's party. Yeah, yeah. I love this guy.

• 2:51:08Joe Rogan?

  Does he talk about it?

• 2:51:09Speaker 02

  A little bit. A little bit. I, I'm so curious about it.

• 2:51:13Joe Rogan?

  Do you think he would come on here and tell a story?

• 2:51:15Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 2:51:16Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 2:51:16Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 2:51:17Joe Rogan?

  Of course he would.

• 2:51:18Speaker 02

  Of course he would.

• 2:51:20Joe Rogan?

  I'm nervous.

• 2:51:23Joe Rogan?

  Are you nervous, Jamie?

• 2:51:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Martin, yeah, he's a cool dude.

• 2:51:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:51:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, I love him. I love him.

• 2:51:31Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, great soldier.

• 2:51:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:51:35Joe Rogan?

  Brother, you've had a pretty wild life.

• 2:51:37Speaker 02

  It's been great, really. Ton of fun, happy to be here. Yeah, it's been good, it's been good.

• 2:51:46Joe Rogan?

  Well, I really enjoyed this conversation, man. I'm glad we did it.

• 2:51:49Speaker 02

  Joe, thank you so much, and really, like, I feel like it's kind of closing the loop for something with my brother.

• 2:51:54Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, well, we should tell everybody. I knew your brother before I met you, online, and this is from your brother. Your brother made this candle, and this candle now sit here. He is no longer with us, but the candle will remain.

• 2:52:10Speaker 02

  Thank you so much for your time, Joe.

• 2:52:12Joe Rogan?

  My pleasure, brother.

• 2:52:13Speaker 02

  Anytime you want to get into arm wrestling, come on over. We'll get your grip strength working for you.

• 2:52:19Joe Rogan?

  No, no, I'm good, but thank you. I appreciate it.

• 2:52:23Speaker 02

  Wonderful.

• 2:52:23Joe Rogan?

  And good luck.

• 2:52:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:52:25Joe Rogan?

  Good luck beating that fucking giant dude.

• 2:52:26Speaker 02

  I'm gonna need it.

• 2:52:27Joe Rogan?

  Sixteen months?

• 2:52:28Speaker 02

  Sixteen months, man.

• 2:52:29Joe Rogan?

  Maybe we'll talk to you before then. Do it again.

• 2:52:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, cool. Thank you so much.

• 2:52:33Joe Rogan?

  Thanks, brother.

• 2:52:33Speaker 02

  Alright, bye, everybody.