Pod Insights Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! | Greek Mythology & the Ancient Mediterranean The Subtle Art of Women's Work, Arachne the Weaver About this episode Arachne wasn't just a talented weaver and artist, she was a woman who dared to become more than her feminine station allowed. Breaking down the 'womanly arts', weaving as a form of independence and the threat that posed to the patriarchal order. Submit your question for the next Q&A via email http://mythsbaby.com/questions or a voice note https://www.speakpipe.com/LTAMB. Get ad-free episodes and so, so much more, by subscribing to the Oracle Edition at patreon.com/mythsbaby http://patreon.com/mythsbaby. Sign up for the newsletter to keep up to date with everything, including the official launch of Mnemosyne: the Memory Collective.
CW/TW: far too many Greek myths involve assault. Given it's fiction, and typically involves gods and/or monsters, I'm not as deferential as I would be were I referencing the real thing.
Sources: Ovid's Metamorphoses, translated by Stephanie McCarter. Read with permission of the publisher.
Attributions and licensing information for music used in the podcast can be found here:mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions http://mythsbaby.com/sources-attributions.
Learn more about Liv's next group trips https://travelbugxlivalbert.my.canva.site/ to GREECE! Application deadline is November 30 (Subject to change due to demand).
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Liv Albert? Hey nerds, really quick note from me. I want to tell you that we now have the applications open for the next set of listener group trips. This is us going back to the original, the trips that we have held in the past that have been so much fun, so successful and pretty affordable in terms of wandering around Greece with a bunch of nerds. So check out the details and get your applications in at mythsbaby.com/groups.
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2:09 Liv Albert? Hello, this is Let's Talk About Myths, baby, and I am your host, Liv. And I am here today with another one of these episodes where I don't script myself, but I promise I have a plan. Today, I want to talk to you about Arachne. She's a character you would have heard before, I certainly hope. And she is one half of one of my most successful early episodes of the podcast, the other being Medusa. But she's also a character who is really so much more interesting than I totally understood back then, and whose story means a lot more.
2:53 Liv Albert? And because it is officially Women's History Month, and everything's looking pretty dark, I thought I would revisit this story, because it says a lot, I think, about not only the story of Arachne, but women's history, women in mythology, kind of just way more than you think it's going to be. But first, I have something to tell you. It's still a little unofficial, because everything is kind of moving very quickly now due to some last-minute decisions. But, well, I'm starting a thing. That's the most cliche way of phrasing it.
3:36 Liv Albert? I am starting a collective. Michaela and I have been working on this for months now, but we were sort of pushed into rushing it by making some changes. I'm getting ahead of myself. Michaela and I are launching what we are calling Nemosini, or The Memory Collective. It's called Nemosini for the Titan goddess of memory, but it's also called The Memory Collective, because I don't want to make people understand how to pronounce or spell the word "Nemosini." So you can call it The Memory Collective. We're gonna call it... A life's work slash we have been jokingly referring to it as a benevolent empire amongst
4:21 Liv Albert? ourselves, but what it ultimately is, is a collective of creators and educators looking to share the ancient world in a somewhat specific kind of way.
4:36 Liv Albert? The Memory Collective will be this collective for historians, archaeologists, artists, and other creators and educators who are dedicated to sharing content about and featuring the ancient world that is accurate, accessible, and inclusive. Our intention is to share stories and accounts of the ancient world about everyone who lived it and for everyone living now. As listeners of my show know all too well, up until the last few decades, the study and appreciation of the ancient world and the definition of what we call "history" was focused
5:16 Liv Albert? on and by the white Western men who formed the discipline and its interpretation in their own image. History is and has been determined by those whose voices were believed to be worth preserving. It's always been interpreted by those whose voices were accepted by the privileged few permitted into the field. But now, more than ever, accurate and contextualized history should be interpreted and shared by and for the rest of us.
5:46 Liv Albert? Again, this is what I do on my show, but I'm making it bigger because history should be accessible beyond the financial and structural confines of academia. It should be accessible in all senses of the word, and that is what we are trying to do. More information will be coming soon, along with some of the people that I am bringing into the collective right from the start, but I'm going to be looking to be adding So many creators and educators in the field of ancient history that are doing similar work, that are working under this general notion that the history as it has been understood
6:25 Liv Albert? up until this time was not for all of us. And it is our jobs to find and interpret the history that is for us, that is about everyone who lived in the ancient world and not just those privileged few whose voices were preserved in any meaningful way.
6:46 Liv Albert? I'm telling you this now while it is not in its fully finished form because the very first podcast that is joining as a, an official podcast of this Nemocine Memory Collective is none other than Sweet Bitter. You all might remember the podcast Sweet Bitter from their very first season on Sappho. They expanded beyond that and looked at queer pirates in the ancient world. And now they are looking at women in the Bible. It's going to be really interesting. And I'm just, I'm really excited to have them as kind of the official first show. The second official first show, the official second show, we're doing great,
7:25 Liv Albert? is Movies We Dig. More information about what they are working on is coming soon. Right now, I'm just kind of trying to throw this information at you because it's gonna be somewhat public soon. And I haven't actually mentioned it in any real way. More coming. It's going to be really good. We're building it all on our own with absolutely no funding. So bear with us. But I'm really fucking excited about it. And I had to write a bunch of stuff for what will become a press release in the next couple of weeks. And so I thought, God's, why aren't I sharing it with you all? And thus, here we are. But, but, today, ultimately,
8:03 Liv Albert? is a deeper look at Arachne and what she means to the wider idea of women and women's work in the ancient world.
8:30 Liv Albert? The Subtle Art of Women's Work: Looking Closer at Arachne the Weaver.
8:52 Liv Albert? I think the perfect place to start this episode, looking at Arachne's story again, is not to revisit that early episode I did, though I will, because I think it's going to be really interesting to look at how I told her story back then and really expand upon it. But I think, and I'm most excited that I can, simply start off by providing you with a reading that I did of Arachne's story from none other than Stephanie McCarter's translation. This is one of the only times when I've been able to read a copyright translation, because I paid for it. And so because that's already recorded, and it is the same one that I recorded years ago, I'm just going to play it for you again. So
9:35 Liv Albert? sit back and listen to this reading of Arachne's story, and then we'll dive into what exactly it all means.
9:57 Liv Albert? When she had finished listening, Minerva endorsed the muses' songs and righteous wrath. "It's not enough to praise," she thought. "Let me be praised and crush whoever scorns my power." She sets her mind on punishing Arachne, a Lydian girl who would not grant to her, she'd heard, the first prize in the art of woolwork. This girl had won acclaim not for her birthplace or family, but for art. Her father, Idmon of Colophon, stained thirsty wool with purple Phaqian dye. Her mother was deceased. Her parents both were
10:37 Liv Albert? plebes, yet for her skill she'd gained celebrity through Lydia's towns, though raised in a small home in small Hypipa. To see her wondrous work, the nymphs who live in Tmalus often left behind their thickets. The nymphs of the Pactolus left their streams. They liked to see not just the finished cloth, but its creation too. Her art possessed such loveliness. Whether she wound the rough wool into spheres, or worked it with her fingers until it softened like a cloud, or turned the rounded spindle with her agile thumb, or painted with her spool,
11:20 Liv Albert? you would just know that Pallas taught her. She denies this, though, and, and, irked to be aligned with such a teacher, says, "Let her vie with me; I have no reason to lose by backing down."
11:38 Liv Albert? Minerva feigns the looks of an old woman, lining her temples with fake white hair, and holding up her feeble limbs with a walking stick. She tells Arachne, "Let's not reject all things that come with age; late years bring wisdom. Do not scorn my counsel. Among your fellow mortals, seek renown for woolwork. Reckless girl, yield to the goddess. Ask her in supplicating tones to pardon your words. She'll grant you pardon if you ask." Arachne glares at her and leaves her threads half-spun; she barely can hold back her hand.
12:19 Liv Albert? Wearing her anger on her face, she answers disguised Minerva with these words: "You're mad; you've lived too long; senility has wrecked you. Go tell this to your son's wife or your daughter. I take my own advice; don't think your warnings have had an impact; I've not changed my mind. Why not come here herself? Why shirk this contest?"
12:47 Liv Albert? She has come, said the goddess, who removed her aged form, showing herself as Pallas. The nymphs and Lydian women bowed before her might; only the virgin was undaunted. But she did blush; against her will a blush suddenly stained her face, then disappeared like air that reddens in the early dawn and quickly brightens when the sun comes up. Still she persists; her foolish need to win speeds her to doom. Jove's child does not back down, nor further warn her, nor postpone the contest. At once they set up matching looms that face each other; then they stretch the warp across
13:31 Liv Albert? the frame and tie it to the crossbeam, using a reed to space its threads. With their sharp shuttles they weave the weft thread in and out, then pull it tight with their fingers. When it's winded through they tap it with a notch-toothed comb to pack it. Their tunics belted to their chest, they move their skilled arms quickly back and forth, their toil forgotten in the thrill. They weave in purple dyed in a tyrian vat and subtle shades in slightly grated hues, just like a rainbow, when drizzle strikes the sunlight and its arc stains the wide sky. A thousand colors shine in it, but their transitions fool the eye, looking the same
14:16 Liv Albert? way or touching, but with edges in different colors. They add stiff gold thread and weave into the fabric ancient tales. Pallas depicts the rock of Mars in Athens and the old contest for the city's name. Twelve gods sit high on thrones in august grandeur, Jove in their midst. Each god is clearly marked by their appearance. Jove looks like a king; she makes the sea god stand and strike his trident against rough rock; the wounded rock shoots out salt water; with this pledge he claims the city. She gives herself a shield and sharp-tipped spear and helmet, and her aegis guards her
15:01 Liv Albert? chest. She shows the earth, struck by her spear, put forth an olive tree replete with fruit. The gods are awed; the scene ends in her victory.
15:14 Liv Albert? To help her rival know what prize she'll win for such wild daring, she provides examples. In the four corners she depicts four contests, each colorful and decked with little figures. One section shows the Thracians Rhodopoe and Hymis, now cold peaks, once human bodies. They called each other by the chief god's names. Another shows the Pygmy Mother's Doom, she lost a match to Juno, who transformed her into a crane that wars against its people. And she depicts Antigone, who dared contend with Great Jove's wife. Queen Juno changed her into a bird.
15:58 Liv Albert? Not Ilium nor her father Laomedon could save her. White with feathers, she hails herself with her loud beak, a stork. Last, she portrays now childless Kineras, who hugs the temple steps, her daughter's limbs, and seems to weep, reclining on the stone. She adds one final detail: peaceful olive around the hem. Her tree concludes the work.
16:28 Liv Albert? Arachne weaves Europa when the bull's form tricked her. You would think the bull and sea were real. She seems to gaze back at the land, to call her friends, to draw her feet away from leaping waves whose touch she fears. She shows Astari gripped by a grappling eagle, and Leda prone beneath swan wings. She adds how Jove, cloaked by a satyr's form, filled lovely Antiope with twins. How he took you, Alcmina, as Amphitriion; how he tricked Danae as gold, Aegina as fire, Nemoosene as a shepherd, and the daughter of Ceres as a dappled snake.
17:13 Liv Albert? She put you, Neptune, changed into a savage bull, atop the virgin child of Aeolus. You, father the Aloydi, as Anippius, and as a ram you trick Theophany. The gentle wheat-haired mother of the crops feels you in horse form. She, who bore the flying steed, feels your bird form, and Melantho feels your dolphin form. She gives them their true looks, even the places. Phoebus is there, too, in rustic guise. He now sports hawk wings, now a lion's skin. She renders how he tricked Amphissa as a shepherd,
17:56 Liv Albert? and how Libere beguiled Origony with phony grapes; how Saturn, as a horse, sired two-formed Chiron. The fabric's hem, lined with a slender border, has flowers intertwined with tenderled ivy. Pallas can't criticize Arachne's work, not even Envy could. The warrior goddess with amber hair is pained by her success and shreds the tapestry that shows God's crimes. Then, with the boxwood shuttle in her hand, she three then four times strikes Arachne's brow.
18:36 Liv Albert? The wretched girl can't bear this, and she ties a noose to her proud throat. But as she hangs, Minerva pities her and takes her down. "Live, wicked girl," she says, "yet hang. To make you fear the future too, this punishment will be inherited by your whole line." Then she withdraws, splashing her with the juice of Hecatean drugs. Touched by that loathsome poison, her hair and nose and ears fall off. Her head grows tiny, her whole body shrinks.
19:18 Liv Albert? The rest is belly, from which she, a spider, shoots out a thread to work her ancient webs.
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22:45 Liv Albert? The first thing we need to be aware of when we are talking about Arachne's story is that it's coming from Ovid. This is probably the zillionth time you've heard me say this, or if you're new to listening, well, that's why I'm still saying it again. But Ovid is a Roman author from the first century CE. And, I mean, not only that, but the biggest difference, ignoring the 700 years or so in between most of the origins of Greek mythology being developed, and someone like Ovid coming in and writing about it, is that Ovid is a Roman man writing about Greek stories.
23:27 Liv Albert? A lot of these stories have been adopted by the Romans in certain ways and kind of melded in with their own mythologies, but at their core, even Ovid knows that these stories are Greek. And so what's happening with Arachne's story is not, not a myth so much as a kind of likely an expanded version of something that was pre-existing. Arachne clearly was the origin of spiders, that's why the word was already the word for spider by the time Ovid wrote this story. So Arachne as this weaver who is the origin of spiders is definitely
24:07 Liv Albert? a longstanding idea. There are some notions about how early that may or may not come in, pottery and things where we might have something depicting her story, but we can say pretty clearly the concept of Arachne, a weaver and a spider is coming from before Ovid. But this story itself is very much Ovid. It's very much Ovid in the way that it does kind of humanize these characters against the gods, which he tended to do. And it's Ovid in the way where he is very intentionally telling stories of transformation. So he's really selective in what stories are being told in the Metamorphoses broadly, but really specifically in Arachne's story, because Arachne's story, like a handful of others
24:51 Liv Albert? in the Metamorphoses generally, serves to both be a transformation story in itself of Arachne being transformed into a spider, but also feature other transformations that he maybe wasn't able to get into the major narrative, or which are in the major narrative, like how Medusa is mentioned as the mother of the winged steed and one of these many victims of the gods' violence. So there's a lot happening here that is serving a purpose, and that doesn't make it any less valuable, but it does say a lot of things about what we know as originating mythology and what we don't. So we don't know for sure the type of stuff that Arachne wove into her, uh, her loom, her into the, the tapestry.
25:36 Liv Albert? That she was creating. We don't necessarily know how much of that is coming from an earlier story. But at the same time, technically, all of it is coming from earlier stories because she is weaving these pre-existing myths into it. It's just probably Ovid that kind of put it all into one place. Doesn't change its value, but it's contextually important.
25:58 Liv Albert? Now, as much as I would love to dedicate an episode to just the art of weaving and particularly how it corresponds to like the aspect of women's work, but I don't have enough ability to research that, what with the collective and the book deal that I haven't announced yet, but like it just, it got better. You'll understand really soon. Um, and so instead, what I just want to talk about when it comes to Arachne is the overarching nature of what it means that this story about a woman who is incredibly skilled in something
26:40 Liv Albert? and then is punished by a goddess for that skill, just like what that really means culturally for women and in this history of women's work. Now, again, a really important part of this is that it is coming from a Roman author who is writing in his time, but about this mythological past, but still it remains true that weaving as an art, but also as a life skill and trying to think of the right wording, but like
27:18 Liv Albert? weaving was the thing that women did. And a lot of the time, and I am absolutely guilty of this. I was going to play clips from that earliest episode I did on Arachne. Um, but honestly, then the episode would end up way too long because I have so much to say otherwise. And I would much rather get to share that Stephanie McCarter translation with you again, um, as a recap. So instead I'm just going to kind of call back to how I spoke about Arachne in those earliest episodes because. I don't fault my past self for seeing it this way because I think that so often
27:58 Liv Albert? when we come upon weaving in this broader sense or in these myths and certainly when I was originally learning this stuff and in these earliest years when I was lacking the level of context and just like depth that I now have after eight years of studying this. But I think we are kind of led to believe that weaving was almost busy work for women, you know, because it was this women's work. It was this, it was like the women's art, you know, and it was like the thing that they were allowed to do. And all of that is true and weaving absolutely served this patriarchal purpose of keeping
28:39 Liv Albert? women confined and sort of just amongst themselves. You know, there was this enormous fear of the threat of paternity, right? This idea that like if the women weren't kind of cloistered up in their own space where they were like no dicks around, then like obviously they would just go out and get themselves impregnated and their husbands would have to worry that the child isn't theirs and all of this like utter absurdity, right? But that is the background between, behind so much of what is going on when it comes to weaving as this woman's work. Like it did serve that purpose to like lock women
29:22 Liv Albert? into a space, but simultaneously it was an incredibly important art and skill in the ancient world. Like if women weren't out there weaving, they wouldn't have had like clothes, let alone like anything else that we are talking about when it comes to fabric and tapestry and like it, it was so fundamentally important to the ancient world. Like think about every single thing in your life that is fabric, right? In any way, fabric. And imagine that all of that was handmade and that it was all done by women.
30:04 Liv Albert? But we get this idea that it was busy work, right? That they were just off weaving a tapestry, that they were just like weaving pictures. And that's art and it's stunning and it's important. But we kind of lose the background. The idea that it wasn't just that they were weaving beautiful pieces of art to keep busy. They were, and of course, it totally would have depended on status and where these women are. But the fact that it was a woman's job remains true. And it applied to like all, a whole fabric at all. And I can't, like, I can't over emphasize how important that would have been.
30:43 Liv Albert? And we also see in this story specifically, these, this talk of just how rich this fabric being woven was, we have Tieri in purple. Don't forget that Tier is the ancient city in southern Lebanon that not only is one of the most ancient places and the origin for the Western alphabets as we know them. And simultaneously is the place that Israel bombed to shit last year. And then probably pretty close to the areas where our news media says they, oh, they just won't leave, they're occupying Lebanon.
31:20 Liv Albert? Anyway, um, Tier is one of the places, or it is the place where the richest dyes came from, right? Tieri in purple, it was like the most impressive color you could have. Into the Roman period, it became empirical purple, right? It was royal, like only the richest and most important people could have it. But all the way back into the Bronze Age, it was this rich color that came out of Tier. And so we, even in, in this version, or even in Ovid's story, rather, we get these ideas about the importance of weaving. But at the same time, like, this story at its core is not about the art of weaving
32:04 Liv Albert? fabrics for practical purposes. It's about weaving a story into a fabric. And this is not the only time in which Ovid depicts a woman weaving.
32:17 Liv Albert? These utterly tragic stories into a tapestry. The other one that stands out in my memory is the story of um Prochny and Philomala. It's one of the darkest stories in Ovid. It's one of the darkest stories, I think, in classical mythology more broadly, and that's the story of the two sisters where I won't get into it, but one of the sisters is assaulted by the other's husband and like kept locked away and he cuts out her tongue so she can't. It's horrifying. And the only way that she ends up freeing herself and getting to her sister and getting her sister to understand what has happened is that she has to weave it
32:57 Liv Albert? into a tapestry because she can no longer speak. And so the fact that that happens in this same work alongside Arachne's story, which is ah, I don't, it it's so hard to fully break down what is even happening in Arachne's story, right? Because like she is standing up for herself. She's standing up for her skill. She is suggesting that she did it on her own, that she didn't need to have this kind of divine intervention. And Minerva, Athena, but in this case, she is very Minerva more than she is Athena. And it's one of those moments where I want to go back to my past self and
33:37 Liv Albert? explain it to me. Um, but for all the Roman gods often seem like they quote unquote copied or even were inspired by the Greeks. They really often did have these very noticeable differences in their deities. Some more than others, but Minerva is a huge one because in Rome, Minerva was a crafts woman more than she was a goddess of war and wisdom. She was a goddess of crafts and and those quote unquote womenly arts, which is another reason why I always hated talking about those things because every time I'd read a book, somebody would call it like a womanly art and it just inherently implies that it lacked value, that it didn't have this important place in society, like
34:22 Liv Albert? calling the the creation of all fabric, like womenly arts is so limiting. It's so, uh, words are not coming to me right now, but it it's gross is what it is. There's a smarter way of saying that, but I won't find it. But ultimately, you know, what's happening here is this woman is incredibly skilled. And I think what might be implied in that is independence, right? Because that's one of the biggest threats to the patriarchal order, for lack of a more detailed term, but like is female independence?
35:02 Liv Albert? And that's why women as these weavers is so looked down upon. It is called something like a womanly art. It is seen as lesser than the male quote unquote arts, than the things that the men were creating and, and, and making for their world. It is seen as less, and that's not an accident. It's because if weaving was seen as a vocation on par with metalworking, which it objectively is in terms of cultural and societal importance,
35:41 Liv Albert? if it was seen as on par with that, it would imply that women are on some level equal and they couldn't have that. And so that's why we have these, these moments of like tearing it down even while building it up. And to me, that's what this story is. It is a woman who is incredibly skilled to the point where she has become famous outside of her home. Not only has she become famous outside of her home, but she's become famous outside of her entire town and region. And that is a threat. That is an enormous, enormous threat to the ruling order.
36:22 Liv Albert? If a woman is not only successful in a vocation that actually provides like tangible results to society, but also that she is so good at it that she has become famous, right? That she is known, like that is that enormous threat that is why women are kept kind of away. And so Athena going there. And coming up with this guise and this trick to essentially like put Arachne in her place is so infused with everything I've ever talked about when it comes to Athena,
37:04 Liv Albert? how like she is the goddess of the patriarchy. Athena is the man's goddess, the hero's goddess. Athena serves as an agent of the patriarchy. And I don't say that as any kind of insult to the character of Athena as a person, as like a personified thing. I say it as a criticism to the people who were determining the stories that we know. I think that women had their own whole idea of Athena, and I would imagine it would be very different from what we have ended up with because the Athena that we have today, the Athena that has been preserved in
37:48 Liv Albert? the sources that we have is this agent of the patriarchy. But that's because the sources that we have were preserved by that same patriarchy, right? And so what we see in Athena this way is, I mean, I'm going to start saying Minerva because she is explicitly Minerva, but at the same time, she does still serve this agent of the patriarchal role that Athena does. But she is more Minerva because she is so much more dedicated to crafts rather than everything else. All of that said, one of the earliest things that people say might be a depiction of this contest between Arachne, it is between Arachne and Athena because Athena is still a goddess of weaving in Greek. But in this form that we have it in Ovid, she is deeply Minerva.
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40:35 Liv Albert? And as Minerva... You know, coming in and it's like she gives, she gives Arachne this chance to be smaller. She gives Arachne the chance to take back some of the fame and acclaim that she has achieved with her skills, with her vocation. She gives her the chance to take that back to essentially become this quiet, hidden, meek woman that she is expected to be. She gives Arachne the chance to go back into the room and continue to weave without anyone knowing, without the results of her labor being linked to her
41:17 Liv Albert? skill as a human. And Arachne says, no. Arachne says, no, this is my skill. This is my vocation. I built it myself. I did this myself. It is mine and it gives me value. It gives me meaning. It gives me purpose. And she refuses to, to take that away from herself. And in doing so, I mean, oh, I, it's, it's so wild to, to think of it that way where Athena Minerva, Minerva really,
41:55 Liv Albert? I mean, th- this might be the peak of her, you know, as agent of the patriarchy where when, when Arachne refuses to become smaller in order to fit with what the patriarchy requires of her, she refuses to go quiet. And so then, you know, Minerva unleashes hell, right? They have this contest and the results of that contest are in themselves so meaningful. And I think, you know, I think there is simultaneously something going on there with Ovid, working in these stories of transformation that he otherwise didn't fit into the, the rest of the poem.
42:40 Liv Albert? Because remember, while people love to, to view metamorphoses as mythology, often even Greek mythology, it is neither of those things, right? Mythology, as I discuss it, certainly mythology is something that is culturally developed. It isn't necessarily written by one person. There are sources we have that should be viewed of as mythology, even though they are written by one person. But like, Ovid is not one of them because he didn't sit down to write down a cultural mythos. He sat down to write a epic poem that explicitly told tales of transformation, right? That's why it's called the Metamorphosis. He had a purpose and he wrote it with that in mind.
43:25 Liv Albert? And not only that, but it also serves as a gust in propaganda. Like, we can't forget that. But ultimately, what he is doing here is, I think, I mean, I don't want to put any words in his mouth because we've all now, we know the R is Amatorian. So I really don't want to give Ovid as much credit as I used to. But I still think he's, he's playing a lot here with the expectations of women and women's work. And he really is valuing the skill of weaving. It's clear. It's very beautiful. I, I hadn't read again or listened back to the McCarter translation since I did it a couple of years ago, but honestly, like hers is, it's so beautifully done where you really get the sense of the skill
44:09 Liv Albert? that's involved and, and like exactly, you know, how talented these women were. But at the same time, you know, Arachne is telling these stories of mortals assaulted almost always raped by gods. And that, it's so, it's so hard to say. There's just, there's so much going on there and I'm trying to find exactly what I'm trying to phrase. But I think I, I want to focus on weaving. I could probably talk for hours and hours about the stories that Arachne does depict there. But I think at the core, what is so interesting is the way that weaving is depicted, but also the way that
44:49 Liv Albert? we understand weaving, or certainly that I did. And that has changed a lot now and I would like it to change even more. I want to know more and more about weaving. But the thing that's most important, and I think the thing that to really remember when it comes to not only weaving, but women's work and vocations and impact in the ancient world is the way that they, their work was at its simplest biodegradable. And I think, like, what does that, how much has that affected us today and how we understand history of the ancient world, how we understand the history of ancient women and their roles?
45:34 Liv Albert? Because, you know, when you get into the nitty gritty, when you're talking to archaeologists, when you're looking at material culture and, and those, like, the real things left behind by real people, you know, there, there is this enormous sense of the value of women's work and, you know, exactly what they contributed to the ancient world. But unless you're in those very dense circles, it's so much easier to just feel like women just like faded away into the background, that they were just hidden away and, and that was that. Because we don't have swords left over that were made by women. We don't have, you know, things
46:18 Liv Albert? like the, the, the tangible creations that men created in the ancient world are things like weapons and tools, the things that they created, the things that they used, the things that we call, that, that survive as like these really obvious touchpoints in history. They don't survive, the men's tools and, and weapons and such don't survive because they were more valuable. They survived because they were not biodegradable. Like, it is as simple as that. And when you see women's work, not only weaving, but lots of other things as just simply biodegradable, and that's why they're lost, like it really, it's this painful impact
47:02 Liv Albert? on how the stories of those very real women were equally lost to time. And I don't just mean weaving to this idea of biodegradable, like products, work of women, um, came from an episode I did last year, uh, with, uh, Dr. Kim Shelton on, on ancient Mycenae. And I just remember her phrasing it that way. And it was so impactful to me because that's what it is, right? And I'm not even talking weaving, even the, the, the most, the most important and, and vital creation that women made and continue to make, but very much did
47:45 Liv Albert? in the ancient world is like human life and is equally biodegradable, along with being something where the men could just kind of ignore the women, primarily because they were so fucking obsessed with, with paternity that like then they, that that's all it became, right? Because they recognized that it was the women who held the actual creation power. And so it just became this like constant thing they needed to fight against. But if you think of, of just weaving as this vocation of women that really was so culturally impactful,
48:28 Liv Albert? so important, which provided like everything fabric, like I don't want to understate it, but I wish I could like list all of the fabric things of the ancient world, but like, you know, I mean, simple as clothes and bedding and sails for ships. Like the men weren't making those and not because they couldn't, but because it was one seen as women's work, but it was also the functionality of the tools and the looms, the, the loom weights, all of it. I don't know enough about weaving. Um, but all of that, you know, I think it was, it was also to do with size of hands. And obviously there's so much going on there when it comes to gender and whatever, but like it was explicitly seen as a woman's job, even if you were making something as important as a sail.
49:14 Liv Albert? Right? And, and we don't think about that. We just see an image of a, you know, a recreation of a trireme and you think, oh, look at that incredible ancient thing that housed all those men as they went to war and they fought with their swords and whatever, like the fucking sail, the fucking sail that got them to Troy made by women. And we have all these stories of the women doing it, particularly in places like Homer, too. There is so much weaving in Homer and, and the skill that it took. And so I think that there is this, this kind of cultural memory of the importance, but then the interpretation of that is what has been lost since, right? Like Homer recognized, I mean, I say Homer,
49:56 Liv Albert? I mean, the Homeric tradition, the epic storytelling tradition, recognized the value of weaving and the value of that as a woman's job, vocation, as it was her, like, life skill. But it kind of got lost along the way because of so much being interpreted by later people and then more later men. And, you know, by the time we get to Athens, which is where so much of that is really being solidified in a way that then it survives for us now. The Athenians were the ones who were the most fucking terrified of paternity. They were the ones who were most interested in locking their women away to ensure paternity. And so they were the most interested in kind of, I think, shuttering those ideas. They, they
50:39 Liv Albert? were, you know, the, the Athenian tradition towards women was the minerva towards Arachne. It was putting them in their place, ensuring that they didn't see weaving as a vocation that could grant them independence from men, that they saw it as like a hobby they would do with their lady friends. Because that's how we then ultimately, I think, see weaving through the many interpretations made since then. And again, I don't want to say that that's true of people who are studying the real material culture and archaeologists and all of that. Or like, once you get into like actual, you know, texts written recently, obviously, the value of weaving is very much appreciated now, but for, that's very recent.
51:23 Liv Albert? I even found when I was looking into this story and how I could use it to talk about weaving as this job of women, this like potential career path that was taken away from them due to, again, fear of paternity. Um, one of the things I found that just really like, Twisted the knife was that Pliny, who was writing like 50 years, I don't know, it not long after Ovid. So Pliny the Elder, very important guy in terms of natural history and the natural world. He famously died in the eruption of Vesuvius. You know, whole
52:04 Liv Albert? deal. It's thanks to Pliny, I'm gonna forget which one, probably Pliny the Younger, because he actually lived, that we have words like the, anyway, lots of volcanic stuff. I'm not getting into volcanoes now. You can tell I'm not scripted this episode, but God, it's fun anyway. So the thing, Pliny, Pliny was like writing about like the inventions of all of these things. It was like where stuff came from, all very cool and nerdy, whatever. But he makes such a point of saying that the spindle, so like this vital part of weaving and like how they would, you know, again, don't know enough about weaving. I would love to do a lot more. Today's episode was very like, I want to talk about Arachne and weaving as much as I can without scripting anything. But he says that the spindle, as
52:48 Liv Albert? this vital thing, was invented by Arachne's son.
52:55 Liv Albert? Like, what we, we just invented a man to take credit for something that is so explicitly tied to women. And it just, to me, it's like that nail in the coffin, right? It's that real, like, they're, they weren't subtle when it comes to making sure that women didn't feel like their contributions were valuable enough for them to have some kind of equality. And it's, it's just, it's a, it's a fascinating thing. And I, it's, again, it's Women's History Month. I really wanted to focus on kind of this under talked about, or even things that I didn't talk about. You know, like, when I first told that story, I really harped up
53:39 Liv Albert? this idea of women's work. And also, I, I had forgotten, but listening back, I remember I had a real thing for, you know, like, oh, you should know better. You don't want to anger the gods, whatever. It was a good joke while it lasted. But like, it's so important to see how, while it seems like this story of goddesses and women and just like having this, you know, divine, mythological, fantastical style weave off.
54:10 Liv Albert? It's so easy to see that because that is what it is on its surface and it's interesting in that way and it's enjoyable.
54:17 Liv Albert? But if you look at it more like not only a woman being put in her place for being skilled, but a woman being put in her place for being skilled in something that if the rest of the culture decided that it was as valuable as it was objectively, she would have been given some kind of freedom. She would have been given some kind of life outside of marriage and baby making. And so what it ultimately is in though, when i- in that moment where Arachne is, is not only, you know, torn down by this goddess, but literally transformed into a tiny spider.
55:00 Liv Albert? Like ultimately, what that is doing is just reminding women that while their work may seem skilled, while they may feel like they have really, you know, done incredible work, that they are self-taught, or that they're just particularly creative and artistic in their weaving, that while they may feel that way, they shouldn't. Because, you know,
55:28 Liv Albert? someone's gonna get you. Like, it's just,
55:32 Liv Albert? ah, it's so, it's so hard to wrap this up because I, it's one of those moments where I can talk myself into such an interesting new thought process that just leads me to want to talk about so many other things. So maybe we'll get back to it, but
55:47 Liv Albert? it's just, i- i- it is wild to me, the way that once you start understanding kind of the, the background, the context of what is really going on in a story like this one so specifically.
56:04 Liv Albert? It's really affecting and it's a really sad and painful reminder that it wasn't so simple as women just being like locked away or not being granted any kind of citizenship. Like it's not even that simple and that is fucked up. But it's worse. It's it's this idea that even if you have the skill and the drive and the the motivation to become something so, you know, to become so good at your vocation that that you're known all around. Like that is not
56:48 Liv Albert? something to strive for, that's something to be punished for. And what does that say about the way that then we have been taught these stories and the idea of women's work and the idea of hobbies as women, crafts as women, these things that are meant to keep us busy, but which in the case of weaving and so many others are simultaneously to keep us busy and some of the most important and impactful contributions to society in all of ancient history.
57:28 Liv Albert? But then those natural fibers break down, 2000 years pass, and we just get this idea that women were just off somewhere, crafting together, doing nothing much else.
57:57 Liv Albert? Well, that was a dark ending, but it was also a really, really great transition into
58:04 Liv Albert? Another, just me reminding you that, oh, oh, I'm, I'm launching a, a thing called nemosony, the memory collective. Mostly the memory collective, I've enforced nemosony because I just fucking love that word and I have since like day one of learning Greek mythology. But really, it's the memory collective and our purpose is to do stuff like that, is to look at the ways that history has been impacted, not by what actually happened back then, but by the people, the men, interpreting what happened over the centuries and the millennia in between.
58:47 Liv Albert? Because history, history is, you know, they say history is written by the, the victors, but history is written by the loudest voices in the room. History is written by the people whose voices are determined to have value, by the other people whose voices are determined to have value. And when that's always, not only men, but those subsets of men in power, those same men who would go on to create the quote unquote "west", it, you know, i- i- it truly impacts not only the history itself, the sort of objective
59:28 Liv Albert? history for all that that is a thing, but also everyone living since, like everyone in between. And I just, I think it's about time that we have a, a place to go to find history that is being looked at with that, like through that lens, through this understanding that that is what has happened over the last 2,000 years. And we can't change that, but we can understand it and we can examine how it has impacted how we see everything else.
1:00:10 Liv Albert? And that was a very long-winded way of reminding you that the memory collective, uh, is launching soon with more information to come.
1:00:21 Liv Albert? Ah, I don't, oh, it's, I don't even know how to go on from here because there's just so much going on. Thank you so much for listening. Selections read from Metamorphoses by Ovid and translated by Stephanie McCarter, published by Penguin Classics, an imprint of Penguin Random House LLC. The unabridged recording narrated by Bonnie Turpin is published by Ground Cherry Press, available for purchase at Audible and other major online audiobook retailers and to borrow from public libraries. Let's talk about Myths Baby is written and produced by me, Liv Albert. Michaela Pengowish is the Hermes to my Olympians, my incredible producer, and together we are founding Nemosony, the Memory Collective.
1:01:03 Liv Albert? Select music by Luke Chaos. The podcast is part of the Memory Collective. I don't know, I'm still working out these new credits. Sign up for my newsletter, mythsbaby.com/newsletter. That will have information about Nemosony when we are ready to launch it in any kind of larger, more public form that is coming slowly and piecemeal. Because again, we're doing it alongside all of this. But stay tuned. If you would like ad-free episodes of the show, consider joining the Oracle Edition, the Patreon, which not only has ad-free, but also so much fun stuff, and a Discord where we're all chatting random
1:01:47 Liv Albert? stuff and raging against the machine. So come on over if you feel like it. I am Liv, and eight years in, I still love this stuff so goddamn much I want to share it with you all in every possible, possible way.
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Previous Liv Reads Statius: The Thebaid (Part 2) Next Conversations: Othering Women in the Origins of Western Medicine w/ Dr Christie Vogler (Part 1) Page updated November 3, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated