#246 Vanessa Marin - Sex Doctor Explains Why Bad Sex Destroys Marriages and How to Prevent It

Vanessa Marin is a licensed psychotherapist with 20 years of experience specializing in sex therapy, holding bachelor’s degrees in human sexuality and sociology from Brown University and a master’s in counseling psychology. Working alongside her husband Xander, she provides practical tools and courses to help couples strengthen their relationships and enhance intimacy through their platform Vanessa and Xander. A New York Times bestselling author of "Sex Talks: The Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life," Vanessa has been featured in outlets like The New York Times, O Magazine, and Harper’s Bazaar. She co-hosts the "Pillow Talks" podcast, offering advice on sex, relationships, and communication, and has amassed millions of views on her YouTube channel debunking myths and promoting healthy discussions Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://americanfinancing.net/srs NMLS 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org. APR for rates in the 5s start at 6.327% for well qualified borrowers. Call 866-781-8900, for details about credit costs and terms. https://betterhelp.com/srs This episode is sponsored. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/srs and get on your way to being your best self. https://calderalab.com/srs Use code SRS for 20% off your first order. https://shawnlikesgold.com https://helixsleep.com/srs https://ketone.com/srs Visit https://ketone.com/srs for 30% OFF your subscription order. https://patriotmobile.com/srs https://ROKA.com – USE CODE SRS https://simplisafe.com/srs https://tractorsupply.com/hometownheroes https://ziprecruiter.com/srs Vanessa Marin Links: Website - https://vmtherapy.com/shawn IG - https://www.instagram.com/vanessaandxander X - https://x.com/VMTherapy YT - https://www.youtube.com/vanessamarin Podcast - https://vmtherapy.com/podcast Book (Sex Talks) - https://sextalksbook.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Nordstrom. For 125 years, Nordstrom has been part of your story. The stylist who found the perfect outfit for your big interview. The first pair of walking shoes for your one-year-old. The tomato soup you shared with your sister at the cafe. These are the moments that make Nordstrom Nordstrom. Big or small, we're here for all of it. Celebrating 125 years with new moments still add. Discover it all in Nordstrom stores and at nordstrom.com.

• 0:30Speaker 01

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• 0:50Shawn Ryan?

  Vanessa Marin, welcome to the show.

• 0:53Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

• 0:56Shawn Ryan?

  Well, me too. We cover a lot of dark stuff on this show, so I wanted to lighten it up a little bit. And I thought you'd be a perfect guest. And so here we go. It's going to be all about sex therapy.

• 1:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, and I just want to say I really appreciate you being willing to open up this conversation. It's a tough one for so many people. And you know what I can say, having been in this field for over 20 years and talking to hundreds of thousands of people, I think so many of us are desperate for more from our relationships. We want more connection, more closeness, more intimacy. And so many of us are wondering, like, what happened to that couple who was madly in love, who couldn't keep their hands off of each other? Like, what have we become now? And so I've really made it my mission to try to bridge that gap in relationships, to try to help save relationships.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  So the good news is there are a lot of really practical things that we can do to recreate that intimacy. So my goal is that by the end of this episode, your audience is going to feel inspired, they're going to feel motivated, and they're going to have a couple of practical tools that they're excited to start putting to use right away.

• 2:08Shawn Ryan?

  Man, I love to hear that. It's it's just nice to have a lighter subject to talk about and and um like, do you know who um Dr. Rena Malik is?

• 2:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do.

• 2:18Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, we just had her on and

• 2:19Speaker 03

  Oh, she's great.

• 2:20Shawn Ryan?

  It's just like, it's like the forbidden, you know, topic that you just don't talk about in public. And I thought that was an amazing conversation. We haven't even released it yet. And uh, we've been trying to get you on here for at least a couple of months, I know. So um, so yeah, thank you for coming. But uh, everybody starts off with an introduction here. So Vanessa Marin, a licensed psychotherapist with over twenty years of clinical experience and sex therapy, helping countless couples improve intimacy. A Brown University graduate with dual bachelor's degree in human sexuality and sociology. A master's degree in counseling, psychology, co-founder of Vanessa and Xander alongside your husband.

• 3:04Shawn Ryan?

  Where you built a library of online courses and tools that real couples use to reclaim their spark. A bestselling author of the book Sex Talks: Five Conversations That Will Transform Your Love Life. And you've also turned this book into a card deck of prompts to deepen connection and spark intimacy. So.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  We might have to open some of them.

• 3:27Shawn Ryan?

  All right, on, let's do it. Let's do it. But um, so before we get too far into the interview, everybody gets a gift.

• 3:35Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm so excited.

• 3:38Shawn Ryan?

  Vigilance League gummy bears, legal in all fifty states. It's just candy.

• 3:43Speaker 03

  I'm very excited about these. I listened to your episode with Gabrielle and

• 3:47Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, cool. You know Gabrielle too?

• 3:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's a new friend of mine and she didn't get hers. And I was like, I really hope, I really hope I get my gummy bears.

• 3:57Shawn Ryan?

  And then um, we'll send you an extra one back for her. But uh, and then I have a Patreon account. We've turned it into one hell of a community and um, they've been with us since the beginning. This is the reason I get to be here with you today. And um, so one of the things we do is we offer them the opportunity to ask every guest a question. This is from Terry Laketsky.

• 4:22Shawn Ryan?

  I was in a 14-year abusive marriage and am returning to single life. How do you suggest setting boundaries in today's dating world, reclaiming sexual health, and what are your recommendations for meeting someone new?

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Oh, well, first of all, I just want to say I'm really excited for this person to get back out there and to be in a healthier relationship. Obviously, there's a lot of grief and sadness of having to process that and move on, but I'm super excited for them to find somebody new and find something better. So I think a great starting point would be to take some time to reflect on what you learned about yourself in that past relationship, and in particular, what you learned about your sexuality. We can always take all of our experiences and figure out what are things that I want to replicate in the future and what are things that I do not want again in the future. So particularly when it comes to sex, I would think about what were some of my favorite experiences?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  What were the times that I felt the most connected to my partner? And what were the things that I didn't enjoy so much? And have those be your barometers going forward in what you're looking for in a partner. And then what I always say to people from the beginning, when you're starting a relationship, actually, our book is such a great resource, because a lot of people will tell us, "Oh, well, I'm not in a relationship, I can't read it." But it's actually really useful to get started on a good foot, you know, right when you're getting started with a new relationship.

• 5:48Shawn Ryan?

  Great point.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  Like, yeah, start talking about sex. Obviously, not on your first date in the first five minutes, but, you know, get a sense of how comfortable or not comfortable that person is with their sex life. So, once you've gotten a couple of dates in, maybe just ask a pretty general question, like, "What's your relationship with sex? How important is sex to you? What does physical intimacy mean to you?" Something more open like that, so you can just get a sense of who that person is.

• 6:14Shawn Ryan?

  Great, great. Love that answer. You know, right at the very beginning, you were talking about, you know, you see couples, and they're all lovey-dovey and touching each other and very affectionate, and then... And then as time goes on, it dwindles away.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 6:32Shawn Ryan?

  You know, sometimes it comes back, sometimes it doesn't come back and things just get totally out of whack. You know, why, why does that happen in, in, in most couples?

• 6:42Speaker 03

  Well, first of all, I just want to-

• 6:43Shawn Ryan?

  Or does it, does it happen in most couples? Does it happen in all couples?

• 6:47Speaker 03

  It absolutely does happen in most, if not all, couples. And, you know, Xander and I always like to normalize this by saying, it happened in our relationship. You know, I was already in this field, had already been doing research and studying, and the exact same thing happened to us. You know, when we met, the chemistry was instantaneous. It was just, we both kind of took it as, this is a sign from the universe, this is my person, we're hitting it off so well. And then you're, you know, a year or two into the relationship and all of a sudden, I'm having this experience of sitting on a couch in our living room, he's sitting on another couch on the opposite side of the room. We're in like our ratty pajamas, we're eating takeout straight from the containers, we've

• 7:30Speaker 03

  had exhausting days at work, we're watching some crappy Bravo TV show that I probably forced him to watch. And I remember having the thought, I don't remember the last time we had sex. And at first it was just, uh, like an observation, like, yeah, when was it? And then it kind of hit me, like a tidal wave, like, I don't remember the last time we were intimate. And I'm not sure I even have really been missing it all that much. And so I've, I've had that experience of what the heck happened to us? Why did we go from this incredible chemistry to, I can't even remember? And so there are a bunch of different reasons why this happens.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  So let's start with first, just purely physiological. Our bodies are not capable of sustaining that level of intensity for longer than six to 12 months.

• 8:24Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 8:25Speaker 03

  So the chemical processes that happen in our brain are so intense, so overwhelming, it's the equivalent of being high on cocaine, essentially. We're literally addicted to that person. You know, we can't get enough of them, right? But our brains are just physiologically incapable of maintaining those same levels of neurotransmitters for longer than about a year, if you're lucky.

• 8:49Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  Physically, it's just not even possible. But making it even worse- A lot of us take our foot off the gas once we've gotten into a relationship. And if you think about like every romance that you've seen on TV and in the movies, the focus is always on like getting the girl, right? Or like getting together. And there's, there's something that's in your way, something little you have to overcome. And then now you're together and you live happily ever after. And so so many of us have that idea in our heads of that's how it goes. Once I get the person, once I lock them down, we're committed, we're married, whatever it is, like, we're good, right? And so a lot of us just go into coasting mode. And we stop doing the things that helped us feel so connected to our person in the first place.

• 9:36Shawn Ryan?

  Can I, before we go too far into this, I just have a couple of theories that, uh, that, so when you were saying your husband and you were sitting on the couch eating takeout again, that to me like,

• 9:51Shawn Ryan?

  if I like shit, it's not happening.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:54Shawn Ryan?

  If I don't feel good, it's not happening. That, that's not just me, that's my wife too. It's if, if we gorge on fast food, takeout, pizza, pretty much anything. And then we feel like shit by the end of the night.

• 10:06Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 10:06Shawn Ryan?

  It's like, you don't feel, I don't even, I don't feel comfortable in my own skin. So it's not, it's just not gonna happen.

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Can I tell you one of my favorite rules for your sex life?

• 10:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 10:17Speaker 03

  Okay, it's called fuck first.

• 10:21Shawn Ryan?

  Nice.

• 10:21Speaker 03

  So before you go out to eat, go to a party, any sort of event, have sex first. So so many of us have this idea, especially with date night. We think, oh, you go out to the restaurant, you have a nice date and then you come home and you have sex. But let's be real, you go out to the restaurant, you overeat, you overdrink, you come home, you're bloated, you're gassy, you're uncomfortable. You just wanna put on your PJs and put Netflix on and sit on the couch, right? Like, nobody wants to have sex after a big date night out. So this is something so practical, so simple, but it's literally game changing. Have sex first, then go out on date night. Then you're not gonna be bloated, too full.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  And also, it feels like this sexy little surprise between the two of you, this little secret between the two of you. So the date night just feels even more fun and flirty than it would otherwise.

• 11:13Shawn Ryan?

  Nice, great suggestion. I mean, is that, is that, and then, and then my other theory is that, you know, people just eventually just...

• 11:23Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know any other way to say it. They just let themselves go.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:26Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and it's in, in, in, I mean, we talk about this a lot with the, with the, with like people like uh, Dr. Gabrielle Lyons and you know, a lot of the other doctors that have had it. You know, and, and not in a, not in like a, uh, uh, in, in a sexual way, but you know, that, that, I mean, Gabrielle talks about, it's like, you wind up in the cycle and it's like, you eat like shit. Then you're like, oh, I did it last time. I'm always, what's one more day? What's one more?

• 11:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:54Shawn Ryan?

  Piece of candy? What's one more bag of gummy bears? You know, and, and, and then it just, it just keeps going and going and going. And I think that, you know, maybe that's why, you know, you get these long periods of no sex with your significant other, partner, spouse, you know, whatever. Am I right on that?

• 12:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah. The way that we take care of our body heavily impacts our desire for sex, how we show up during sex. And, you know, I'm, I can tell a little bit of Xander's story too. Like at the beginning of our relationship, he was in a really stressful job, working very long hours, trying to climb that corporate ladder, be a good provider. And he started stress eating, you know, and, and all of a sudden it was, he's uh, gained a lot of weight. He was feeling really uncomfortable in his own body. And he would tell you the story too. This is not a secret or anything. You know, he was just feeling really uncomfortable in his own skin and his sex drive really suffered because of that. And I've gone through similar phases in my own life too, where, you know, life gets in the way and you just kind of get off your routine.

• 12:58Speaker 03

  And you really feel that impact. So I think that's actually one of the amazing invitations that our sex life offers to us. I'm sure we'll get into this more, but you know, we have this tendency to think of sex as just this purely physical act, but I really believe it's so much more than that. And it invites us to take a look at, how are we really treating our bodies? How are we taking care of ourselves? Cause if you're treating your body like crap, you're not going to want to be intimate with your partner. You're not going to be able to perform super well with your partner. Like the desire is just not going to be there. So how we treat our bodies is an incredibly important part of our sex life.

• 13:35Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. What are, what are the other reasons? Are there other reasons?

• 13:40Speaker 03

  A lot of it is just letting life get in the way, too. You know, we're all busy. We're all so busy. We have a million things on our plate, a million things going through our minds at all times. And it's very easy for us to just take our relationships for granted and think like, you know, that's my person. I locked it down. They're always going to be there. And so we let them drop farther and farther and farther down our priority list until the point where they really feel more like roommates rather than romantic partners. I mean, most couples will say, we're like two ships passing in the night. Or we're business partners in managing a household, managing the kids' schedules and all the stuff. But that spark between the two of us is gone. So it's really, we've stopped making space for each other, to connect with each other,

• 14:24Speaker 03

  to spend time with each other, to remind ourselves like, oh, yeah, I like you. You're fun to spend time with, right?

• 14:32Shawn Ryan?

  What about, what about fear of asking?

• 14:36Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, yeah. Initiating is wildly, wildly vulnerable. You're talking about initiating sex in particular? Yeah. We don't give enough credit to how vulnerable it is to initiate. And in male-female relationships, you know, it's almost always the man who's doing the initiating. That's kind of the idea that we have, like, yeah, the guy, the guy's supposed to want it more, so he's supposed to initiate. And I think as, as women, a lot of us don't recognize how vulnerable that is, how hard it is to put yourself out there and ask to be intimate. You're putting yourself in the position to be turned down. And anytime you get turned down for anything, it sucks. But particularly when it's around something as intimate as sex, it really hurts.

• 15:21Speaker 03

  And this is another area where I think we really get ourselves into a lot of trouble by thinking of sex as this purely physical act. So a lot of women, their partner will initiate, and a lot of women will be kind of annoyed by it. Like, ugh, you want to have sex now? Can't you see I'm in the middle of something? We just had sex a couple of days ago, right? It feels annoying. And a lot of times, that's because men are initiating in kind of annoying ways because it's so vulnerable. So you guys do the like, you're trying to joke about it instead. Trying to get a little plausible deniability. So one of the classic ones is like the old boob honk, you know, he comes up behind her while she's washing the dishes and you know, gives her a little honk honk. And she's like, leave me alone, like, get off of me. And he's,

• 16:04Speaker 03

  oh, I was just, I was just joking. I was just messing around with you. That wasn't trying to initiate. You're trying to get some plausible deniability, right? To make it like, to make it sting less when you get a no. But of course, it's an annoying initiation. And so you're more likely, ironically, to get a no from her. But as women, a lot of us will, yeah, we'll get annoyed and, oh, just leave me alone, go away, some other time. And we don't recognize in that moment, that what our partner is really doing, even if it's, he's doing it really immaturely, really unskillfully, what he's actually asking in that moment is, I want to feel close to you right now. Will you connect with me right now? And that's something that I tell women all the time, like, imagine in that moment that that's

• 16:45Speaker 03

  actually what he's saying to you. You wouldn't respond with, leave me alone, oh, get out of here. If you actually recognize that that's what he's saying. I want to feel close to you right now.

• 16:55Shawn Ryan?

  How should men be asking, or women?

• 16:59Speaker 03

  So first of all, I think everyone needs to initiate. I think it's really important for both partners in the relationship. And it's not about sex drive. I don't care who has the higher drive or the lower drive. I think both partners need to be willing to be that vulnerable and initiate with each other. It's not fair for it just to be put solely on one person's shoulders. So that's a big part of it. But one of the things that we go over in sex talks is a model that Xander and I came up with called the initiation styles. Have you heard of the love languages model? It's like kind of that idea that we all like to give and receive love in different ways. It's very similar to that. Like, we all like to be initiated with in different ways. So if you don't know your partner's style, you're likely initiating in a way that doesn't really work for them. And you're more likely to

• 17:43Speaker 03

  get that like, oh, leave me alone kind of reaction. So it's understanding, you know, finding out what style your partner is and what's going to work for them. So I'll give you a couple of examples. One of the types is called "take care of me." And a lot of women tend to be of this type, where we want to feel like there's emotional connection first. Like, you care about me as a human, you're interested in me, you want to spend a little quality time with me. We're easing into it, rather than just, you know, zero to 100. So for somebody who's of that type, a really successful way to initiate might be something like, "Hey babe, I'm gonna handle bedtime with the kids tonight. Why don't you go take a bath, relax, and then you and I can meet in the bedroom in about half an hour."

• 18:27Speaker 03

  Something like that would feel so good for so many women. Versus, I'll give you a totally different type, it is called the "play with me" type, where you like initiation to be more like playful and silly. Xander and I do this type a lot. Like, we'll do, we'll be watching a football game, and we'll make a bet on who's gonna win this game. Okay, whoever wins this bet, they get to have, decide like, what kind of sex they want to have tonight. You know, we're being silly about it. Or we're like, we'll have a secret emoji that we send to each other, and that means like, "Hey, I'm interested right now."

• 19:00Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, nice.

• 19:01Speaker 03

  It's more playful, alright? So you can see that those are two very different kinds of styles. And if you're initiating in the style that's not really what your partner likes, it's probably not gonna land as well.

• 19:10Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, can you just ask?

• 19:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, you absolutely can. And I do think that in general, that's one of the best ways to go about it. You know, like I was saying, a lot of men are doing it in these kind of jokey ways, or these roundabout ways. Sometimes it's even just like, they give you a hug, and you're like, "Okay, I know what you're doing."

• 19:28Shawn Ryan?

  I know what this means.

• 19:29Speaker 03

  This hug is lasting a little long. Or the back massage, "Oh babe, I'll give you a back massage." And you're like, "There's gonna be 10 seconds of a back massage, and then your hands are gonna start moving somewhere else."

• 19:40Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man.

• 19:41Speaker 03

  I think that if we're more verbal about it, you know, in those moments when you're not using your words, like, everybody knows what's going on. We're not fooling each other. And then you're doing this whole like, "Nobody's saying anything, but we're communicating back and forth to each other anyways." So like, let's just say it. "Hey, do you want to be intimate with me? Hey, I would like to feel close to you right now." And one of my favorite techniques that Xander and I have actually been experimenting with a lot recently is, we're separating the initiation from the actual sex. So for a lot of women... And this is even, this is even true for me. I've experienced this a lot. When Xander initiates with me, it can often feel like a pop quiz in the moment. It's like, oh, wait, wait, wait. Like, you want to have sex right now?

• 20:25Speaker 03

  Like, I wasn't even thinking about sex right now. So I feel caught off guard. I feel like I'm already behind in a sense. So it's, it's very easy for me to give this knee jerk, like, oh, no. Like, I'm not turned on right now. No, I don't want to. But I want, I really want people to get used to the idea that we don't have to be turned on in order to initiate or to say yes to sex. But what we've started doing is like creating more space between that so that I don't get that pop quiz feeling. So oftentimes, we'll talk about it in the morning. We'll say, hey, I would like to be intimate with you today. What does our schedule look like? What would be the best time for that to happen? If one person has way more on their plate than the other, like, hey, can I take this off your plate? Maybe we can collaborate on this. Maybe we can push that off till tomorrow.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  So we're kind of like working together as a team to figure out when's the best time and the best way for us to be intimate. So it makes it feel like it's a collaboration. It's not one person like putting themselves out there being really vulnerable. It's both of us saying, hey, this is important to us. We want to make sure there's time for us in this crazy, busy day. So that has felt so nice for us lately. I think it's a great tip for a lot of couples to try out.

• 21:35Shawn Ryan?

  All right, all right. I mean, how much, how much sex should we be having?

• 21:41Speaker 03

  That's the age old question, right? So there really, truly is no perfect answer. Like, every couple is so unique. And I know this is a very unsatisfying answer. Like, we all want to hear this magic number. I think a lot of us have a lot of anxiety about our sex life. Like, am I having enough? Are we normal? And so we want something like simple and concrete, like a number. Just tell me, just tell me the number and we can do it. But here's what happens. Like, let's say I say three times a week is the perfect amount of time. If you're pushing yourselves to have sex just to hit a quota, it's probably not going to be very good sex. And there's a huge connection between our enjoyment of sex and our desire for it.

• 22:24Speaker 03

  If we are not enjoying the sex we're having, we're not going to desire it. It doesn't make any sense to. So trying to just hit that quota really doesn't work. So it really is very unique.

• 22:37Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean? Who doesn't enjoy having sex?

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Oh, Sean. So many people.

• 22:44Shawn Ryan?

  What?

• 22:45Speaker 03

  And mostly women. There are so many women out there who are not enjoying the sex that they're having. And I'll tell you why. It's not any fault of men. It's not any fault of any of ours. But the way that we are taught to have sex heavily prioritizes male pleasure. So let me, I'll go into the full like science geek out on you here. What's happening when we have intercourse? Intercourse is not the most pleasurable activity for women. We actually polled our audience before. We have over a million people in our community on Instagram. And we asked women, is intercourse the most pleasurable activity for you? I want you to guess what percentage of women said, yes, it is. Intercourse is the most pleasurable activity for me.

• 23:32Shawn Ryan?

  Well, you said it's not very many. I'll say.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  I know. I set you up a little bit.

• 23:36Shawn Ryan?

  Forty percent.

• 23:37Speaker 03

  Nine.

• 23:38Shawn Ryan?

  Wait, what? Nine percent?

• 23:41Speaker 03

  Nine percent of women.

• 23:43Shawn Ryan?

  Enjoy sexual intercourse?

• 23:45Speaker 03

  Say that intercourse is the most pleasurable activity for them.

• 23:48Shawn Ryan?

  No kidding?

• 23:49Speaker 03

  Nine percent.

• 23:50Shawn Ryan?

  All right. What's the most?

• 23:51Speaker 03

  Here's why. It's because when we're having intercourse, we're getting stimulation in our vagina. And our vaginas do not have very many nerve endings in them. Like, think about how intense childbirth is. If we had even more nerve endings there, that would not be a good thing. So we're getting stimulation of a part of our body that just is hardwired not to feel a ton of sensation. The most sensitive part of our body, as women, is the clitoris. So the clitoris is this incredible organ. It's the only organ in the entire human body that exists solely for the purpose of pleasure. The penis has reproductive functions. The clitoris is just purely for pleasure.

• 24:34Speaker 03

  The clitoris has about 8,000 to 10,000 nerve endings in it. And compare that to the penis, that's 2,000 to 3,000. So we have way more nerve endings, way more sensitivity. And this is where I can science geek out on you. Like when we are fetuses in the womb, we are actually, we all start off essentially with no gender. And then around 11 weeks or so, that's when we start to differentiate into male or female. So the analogy I always give is like, imagine a ball of clay. So I could take a ball of clay and I could form it into a mug, or I could take that same ball of clay and I could form it into a plate. So it's the same ball of clay that I'm starting with, I'm just making different shapes out of it, right? So the same tissues that make the penis make the clitoris.

• 25:18Speaker 03

  Same tissues, they're just turned into different shapes, right? So the problem is, when we're having intercourse, we're not getting clitoral stimulation. So we're not getting the most sensitive part of our body stimulated. So the comparison that I always like to make is that intercourse for a woman, from a nerve ending standpoint, it's like playing with a man's balls. Like, that might be fun, that might feel good, but is it gonna be enough stimulation for you to have an orgasm? Definitely not, right? But that's what we're doing to women, is we're stimulating this part of our body that's not really designed to feel a lot of pleasure. And then so many of us women are feeling like something's wrong with us

• 26:01Speaker 03

  or broken with us for not enjoying intercourse.

• 26:09Shawn Ryan?

  Do you feel it?

• 26:12Shawn Ryan?

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• 27:40Shawn Ryan?

  Well, hold on, what about the G-spot?

• 27:43Speaker 03

  The G-spot's a really interesting thing. So, there actually isn't consensus in the sex therapy field about whether or not the G-spot actually exists. So what we do know is it's not really a spot in the sense of like a button that you just press.

• 27:57Shawn Ryan?

  It's a zone.

• 27:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's a zone. There's a network of tissues that are there. And what they're around is the legs of the clitoris. So, most of us think of the clitoris as just like the little button, but it actually extends up into the body. It's like a wishbone shape, exactly like a wishbone shape. So, the legs of it are called the crura. And around the edge of the bottom of the legs, that's where the G-spot area is. So, when you're stimulating the G-spot from inside the vagina, you're stimulating the clitoris. It's still the clitoris. You're just going through the walls of tissue and muscle in the vagina.

• 28:34Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 28:34Speaker 03

  So, it's still the clitoris.

• 28:35Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:37Shawn Ryan?

  All right, so how do women like to be pleasured if it's not through intercourse?

• 28:41Speaker 03

  With hands and mouths tend to be way more successful at helping her reach orgasm. So you're going to be a lot more successful that way. But that doesn't mean that intercourse can't be enjoyable, can't be intimate. And you can also add clitoral stimulation. You use your hand, she uses her own hand, you could use a toy. But you have to make sure there's some sort of clitoral stimulation happening. So I tell men, like, imagine, you know, you have to think of the clitoris as the penis. And imagine like if you're having sex, but you're getting no stimulation of your penis, you're not going to enjoy it, right? So we need to treat the clitoris in the exact same way because it's the same tissues. It's the same organ, the same purpose there. We need to make sure the clitoris is always invited to the party.

• 29:24Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Okay, okay.

• 29:28Shawn Ryan?

  All right, where do we go from here?

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Where do we, where did we start? We're talking about, um...

• 29:36Shawn Ryan?

  Wanted to bring up, yeah, we're talking about initiation. And, okay, so we talked about, yeah, initiation, how to initiate. And then we got into only 9% of women enjoy sexual intercourse. But let's talk about, uh, let's talk about the, how do, how do we start the conversations? You know, in your, in your book, acknowledgement, connection, desire, pleasure, exploration.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Okay, so everybody knows, you've heard the advice, like, we should be talking about sex. You know, when you're up late at night and you're incognito, maybe on your phone Googling, like, why aren't we having sex anymore? It's always at the end of every article, like, talk to your partner about it, right? But the problem is, nobody ever tells you how to have those conversations. And, you know, even when Xander and I were going through a tough period in our own relationship, even though I was in this field... I couldn't find any resources about how do we talk about our sex life? How do we talk about what's having, what's happening between the two of us? So actually, the very first conversation that Xander and I ever had about our sex life was in bed, late at night.

• 30:47Speaker 03

  I had been hoping that he was going to initiate and he just, you know, rolled over to go to bed. And I said, why don't you want to have sex with me anymore? Just blurted it out. I was pissed off. And as you can imagine, that conversation did not go very well. Like, he got really defensive. He was hurt. He'd been about to go to sleep and now all of a sudden, he's being attacked by his wife. So it did not go very well. So we decided, you know, years later, once we had finally gotten through that tough stage of our relationship, started building this business, we, we kind of went back to that initial idea of conversation. And we thought, you know, I want to help couples talk about their sex life in a more productive and open and positive way.

• 31:29Speaker 03

  So they're not making the same mistake that we did of waiting till there's a problem and then you only talk about the problems. So we laid out, we picked, okay, these are the five conversations that I think every couple, whether you're in a great place or you're really struggling, every couple could benefit from having these five specific conversations. And we laid them out in a specific order, too. We really wanted to give couples specific instructions of exactly what to do, exactly what to say, how to say it, when to say it. So what we start with, the very first conversation is called acknowledgement. And it's literally just getting comfortable with sex as a topic of conversation. So most of us, you know, we all grow up being taught to be embarrassed and ashamed of sex.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Like, I don't know about you, but I certainly got that message that like sex was taboo. We don't talk about it openly. It's inappropriate. And so none of us have developed that skill of how do I even say the words out loud sometimes, right? So this conversation helps you create that foundation of just getting comfortable saying the words so you can talk about, hey, you know, what do we want to do for sex tonight? The same way that you might talk about what do we want to have for dinner tonight, right? So one of the, one of the starting points that we give is to start up talking about sex in just a positive way. So this is not the time to make any complaints. There's no criticism. There's no trying to solve any problems, none of that. It's literally just getting comfortable saying the words out loud. So one of my favorite conversation openers is

• 32:58Speaker 03

  To ask, like, what are your, some of your favorite sexual memories with me? Just that. So, you know, ask your partner to share a memory. If you're worried about them, you know, feeling nervous, you can go first and share one of yours. So I like saying something like, you know, it just randomly popped into my head the other day, that trip that we took to Mexico on our anniversary, you know, that time we barely left the hotel room. It was just a fun little memory that I thought of. Or you can even say you had a dream about it. Oh, you know what I had a dream about last night? That, you know, da, da, da. So you're just sharing it in a positive way. And just leave it there. Don't go into, oh, what happened to us? I haven't done that in a long time. Just leave it there. Have a positive conversation.

• 33:36Shawn Ryan?

  Positive.

• 33:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, keep it positive. So eventually you start building that foundation and the two of you start realizing, hey, it can actually be fun to talk about sex. It can feel connecting to talk about sex. It doesn't feel as scary and taboo anymore.

• 33:48Shawn Ryan?

  So how do you, how often should that conversation be happening? How long should couples be talking about sex?

• 33:55Speaker 03

  I think you should be talking about sex at least a couple of times a week.

• 33:58Shawn Ryan?

  A couple of times a week?

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I think it's fun to talk about it, not always talking about your sex life. So Xander and I, like with our Instagram account, we design so much of our content to just open up conversations between couples about, not about your sex life. Like, we'll answer, you know, we'll answer a question from someone in our community and you can show that to your partner. Like, oh, this was a really interesting question. It has nothing to do with us or our sex life, but like, what did you think about the advice they gave? Did you agree? Did you disagree? Well, one of my favorite series that we do is we act out horrible sex positions that we find online. You know, so we're like making total fools of ourselves, like, twist it over, upside down, you know, there's no way this position could work. And it's like, just send that to your partner and laugh

• 34:41Speaker 03

  about that. Like, look at these guys acting like total idiots on the internet. I thought this woman was supposed to be a professional. So like, just laugh about it. This is silly. This is funny. You know, where it's, it's not that every conversation has to be that you're trying to achieve something. It just becomes this more comfortable topic between the two of you.

• 34:58Shawn Ryan?

  When do you, I mean, when do you advise people to bring these conversations up? Is there any, is there like a? A window that we're looking for here, or just

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Start now.

• 35:09Shawn Ryan?

  Spontaneously, just bring it up.

• 35:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, read the room. You know, if your partner's like in the middle of doing a ton of things, or obviously really stressed out and are in a bad mood, probably that's not going to be the best time to like, "Hey babe, what's your favorite sexual memory with me?" So maybe like more a quiet time, like maybe before bed between the two of you, or you know, if you're out on a walk together, something like that.

• 35:32Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. So acknowledgement to...

• 35:36Speaker 03

  Connection. Connection is the second conversation. So we like to think of physical and emotional intimacy as two sides of the same coin. You know, a lot of people were surprised to see that, you know, "Oh, one of the five conversations is about emotional intimacy. I thought this book was about sex." But we really think that physical and emotional intimacy are just deeply entwined. And this can be an issue for a lot of couples. We've found people tend to be fall into one of two camps. You either want to feel emotionally connected before you have sex, or sex for you is a way that opens up emotional connection.

• 36:19Speaker 03

  That's how you feel the most connected to your partner. Do you have a sense of what type you might be? Do you like to feel connected beforehand, or is sex a way that you feel the most connected?

• 36:28Shawn Ryan?

  Probably the way I feel most connected.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's pretty typical for men. But Xander and I are actually the reverse of like the typical gender dynamic. I like sex as a way of opening up connection too. So this is another way that men and women really misunderstand each other, because like I said, most people tend to fall into the woman's the one who wants to feel emotionally connected before sex, but the man is the one who feels more connected through sex. And so it can lead to this standoff where the classic fight is, you know, the woman will say like, "Well, why would I want to have sex with you right now? I don't feel connected to you at all." And the man will say, "Yeah, we're connected. That's why we should have sex." And it feels like this horrible standoff of, you know, who gets to go first.

• 37:11Speaker 03

  And what we forget in that conversation is, we both want both things. This is just such a classic way that men and women misunderstand each other. We both want to feel emotionally connected and close to each other, and we both want to feel physically connected, physically close to each other. But we wind up in this stalemate of feeling like, you know, "You don't understand me. You want something totally different." So it's really important to recognize that that's what we're both wanting. And so that's why, like I said earlier, I think it's so important for women to recognize, like, when your man is initiating with you, what he's really saying is, I want to feel close to you right now.

• 37:46Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:47Speaker 03

  And I think this is also, this is a way that men sabotage their ability to have more sex with their partner, is that they don't share with her that emotional component of sex. So, so many women, they think, he's just horny, he just wants to get off, I could be any warm body, you know, it doesn't matter. And a lot of men, they just perpetuate that stereotype because they never share that actual, like, intimacy part of it. So one of the best ways to do this is right after sex. A lot of men will say, like, that's when I feel the closest to my partner. I'm the most open, I'm vulnerable, like, that's when I feel the closest. But what do most of us do right after we have sex?

• 38:32Speaker 03

  We jump up and we go about our day. We get on our phones, we go to the bathroom. We're missing that opportunity, I call that aftercare, that moment after sex, to really, like, linger in that, in that intimacy that you've just built and created. So if a man were to tell his partner, just like, I feel so close to you right now, I love you, that was amazing, thank you. Like, it doesn't have to be complicated, simple, something simple like that, that would go a really long way in helping women recognize, like, oh, this isn't just a, this isn't just a physical release that he's looking for, he actually wants to connect with me.

• 39:10Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. Anything that men should do before?

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Before, yes. So, okay, I always used to use the phrase, you know, women want more emotional intimacy. And, and Xander and I had so many great conversations about this. He said, he told me, you know, a lot of men, we hear the, the phrase emotional intimacy, and it just, we don't know what that means.

• 39:31Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 39:32Speaker 03

  Like, it just kind of feels big and scary and like, like, I don't know. You know, and as, as men, you're socialized not to be emotional, right? Like, you're not supposed to show your feelings, that's not what a real man does. Um, you know, so it's harder for you guys to, to understand, like, what that means.

• 39:49Shawn Ryan?

  I think a lot of people think it means, you know, that it, it's, I mean, What am I trying to say here?

• 39:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, what does, when I say the phrase, if your wife were to say, I want us to feel more emotionally intimate.

• 40:02Shawn Ryan?

  I would take that. I'm probably way off here. I would take that as I need to be romanced into it. And it's going to become this big, long, drawn out.

• 40:13Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 40:14Shawn Ryan?

  Period of time. Where, I don't know, maybe it's flowers, cooking for you, and it becomes like this long process. To get to sex.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  That sounds like a lot of work.

• 40:27Shawn Ryan?

  Sounds like a lot of work. Sounds like a lot of work, a lot of time, a lot of planning.

• 40:32Speaker 03

  Okay, so yeah, and of course, it feels overwhelming. Yeah, like, I gotta do this every time? It's like, you know, there's only so much time we have in the day and I have to do this whole thing every time. Yeah, so it sounds overwhelming, right? So that's what Xander really helped me understand about men. It feels overwhelming for us and we don't know what to do. And I think there's a lot of, like he shared with me, that sometimes I feel kind of embarrassed about that. Like, I don't know, I'm not that classic, like, buy you flowers and write you poems kind of guy. So I kind of feel like I'm, I don't even know how to do this and that feels a little bit embarrassing. So what I've realized in talking to women is, sure, flowers are nice, planning a date night, those things are nice. But really what women are looking for is, we just want to know that you're interested in us.

• 41:15Shawn Ryan?

  Like, that's what I was gonna ask, like, what a simple compliment.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Exactly. We just want to know that you're interested in us and getting to know us and who we are and what our experience is like. You know, so many women say, like, it feels like all day my husband just ignores me and then as soon as he wants sex, you know, then he's all over me. But I'm like, hey, what about the rest of the day? We've, you know, you haven't shown any sort of interest in me whatsoever. So just show some interest in her. Like, ask her about her day and actually pay attention to her answer. Or ask her a more interesting question than, how was your day? You know, hey, what's something you've been thinking about lately? Um, just be nice to her. Give her a compliment. And again, it doesn't have to be complicated. Like, you look really beautiful today. Your eyes are just sparkling today. Like, man, you look so good.

• 42:05Speaker 03

  Um, touch her. This is one of the most interesting things that we've heard about from women. Like, women want more touch throughout the day. We don't want you to just touch us when you want sex. Because that makes it feel like you're just trying to get something out of us. You know, we want to feel that interest from you all throughout the day. So, give her a hug, and then back away. Don't let it linger, and your hands start to creep down to her butt, right? Like, give her a kiss-

• 42:34Shawn Ryan?

  We can't help it sometime.

• 42:35Speaker 03

  And then walk away. You, I promise you, there's nothing that turns a woman on more than a little tease. Like, we like that. Like, you get something started, and then you walk away. There's no pressure, there's no expectation. Let us come to you a little bit more.

• 42:49Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 42:50Speaker 03

  But yeah, like, let's, let's not think of emotional intimacy as this huge, overwhelming, scary topic. Like, let's boil it down into smaller things. Just say nice things to her. Give her a compliment every once in a while. Give her a hug out of the blue. Like, that's what's really gonna make her feel more connected to you.

• 43:05Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, before we move on to the next one, I just, I want to ask, I mean, do you, do you have a...

• 43:12Shawn Ryan?

  Do you have an idea of how many men want to, they want to see their partner climax during sex?

• 43:21Speaker 03

  Oh, every man.

• 43:22Shawn Ryan?

  I would think every man wants that.

• 43:24Speaker 03

  Every man, yeah. And this is another thing that a lot of women misunderstand. I, I don't think we give men enough credit for how much they genuinely want to please us. Of course, like, there are assholes of, you know, out there, of course, men and women. But, you know, the vast majority of men, especially if you're in a relationship with somebody, like, you care about her pleasure. You want her to have a good time. The problem is that us women, we've been fed so much crap about our pleasure for our entire lives. We've been taught to believe that, you know, our bodies are, they're icky and weird and gross, and our pleasure is, it's so complicated, and the clitoris is so mysterious, and where is it? Does it even exist?

• 44:04Speaker 03

  And we've been taught to be caretakers, um, so it's, it feels selfish to us to be the center of attention, to let ourselves, you know, receive from our partners. We have all the misinformation about how our orgasm really works. Like, I always share very openly, I struggled with my orgasm for years. I never orgasmed with a partner until I met Xander. And it wasn't because my partners didn't care. It was because I was dealing with my own crap around, you know, allowing myself to receive pleasure and understanding how my body worked. Even being a freaking sex therapist, I still struggled with that.

• 44:37Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 44:37Speaker 03

  So, you know, men genuinely want their partner to feel good. I think it feels good to a man to provide pleasure to a woman, right? And I think a lot of women don't get that. And a lot of women, we sabotage our own ability to feel that pleasure because we won't allow him to focus on us. We fake orgasms so he gets the idea that what he's doing is working, even though it's not. We tell him, oh, you know, we let him touch us for a few seconds. Like, okay, let's move on. It's fine. You don't have to. Go ahead.

• 45:09Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 45:09Speaker 03

  You know, so it's like, men are trying to give us a gift, and we are pushing it away.

• 45:14Shawn Ryan?

  Why are women faking orgasms?

• 45:17Speaker 03

  Because it feels easier. I mean, I faked a lot of orgasms in my life, and there were a lot of reasons for it. So sometimes it was, I, primarily it was, I didn't know what I needed. And so it felt embarrassing. I felt like, I don't know what to tell a partner. I don't know how to instruct him, so I might as well just fake it instead of making him fumble around and neither of us really knows what we're doing. So, I mean, that was the primary reason. But sometimes it was just, I just want sex to be over. I'm ready for it to be done. A lot of times, it was, I want him to feel like he's done a good job. I want him to get to have that experience of like, oh, I made her feel so good. I made her orgasm. You know, I was thinking so much more about my partner's experience and their pleasure than my own experience.

• 46:02Speaker 03

  And yeah, that's what so many of us women are, we're socialized to do. It's more important for him to have a good experience. It's more important to pay attention to him and make sure he feels good and his ego is protected, and we can sacrifice ourselves. And so I really want women to stop doing that.

• 46:17Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the overwhelming?

• 46:18Speaker 03

  And to recognize that men don't want us to be doing that either.

• 46:20Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the overwhelming majority of women that do this?

• 46:23Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:24Shawn Ryan?

  Is it?

• 46:24Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. We, you know, there's not any, like, proper scientific research that I've seen on the numbers, but we've polled our community before, and something like 95% of women said that they've faked at least once in their life. And we asked if you're currently faking orgasm with your partner. I believe it was around 37% of women said.

• 46:46Shawn Ryan?

  37%. Wow. Wow.

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• 47:51Speaker 03

  And some women, someone will say, I don't fake it, but I, it just doesn't happen. And neither of us, we don't talk about it openly, so it just, you know, it just happens like that. So that's another big percentage of women, too. That they're not necessarily faking it, but they're still not having them.

• 48:08Shawn Ryan?

  Well, that's not good.

• 48:09Speaker 03

  It's not good.

• 48:12Speaker 03

  And this is, I mentioned earlier, the connection between enjoyment and desire. It sounds so obvious, but most of us don't make that connection. You know, the dynamic that I hear about the most frequently is the woman's the one that has lower desire. It's always the woman and it's, and she's always blaming herself. What's wrong with me? I must be broken. Something must be wrong with me. It's all my fault. My husband always wants sex and I never want it. And what they don't recognize is that connection between enjoyment and desire. If you are not enjoying the sex that you're having, it makes zero sense for you to crave it. I call this the mushy broccoli problem. So.

• 48:52Speaker 03

  Do you ever find yourself just absolutely craving a bowl of steamed mushy unseasoned broccoli?

• 49:01Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 49:02Speaker 03

  No. And do you think anything is wrong with you?

• 49:05Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  For not wanting that? Of course not. But the same thing is true with sex. There are so many women who, again, it's not a fault, it's not their fault, it's not their partner's fault, it's just this misinformation and misunderstandings. But there's so many women who are having mushy broccoli sex and then beating themselves up for not wanting more of it.

• 49:28Speaker 03

  So the problem is not, you know, when a woman comes to us and says, I have a little libido, fix me, what do I, do I take the supplements, do I take the pills, what do I do? The first question we ask her is, tell us about the sex that you do have.

• 49:39Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I think, I think that a bad sex life in, in, in monogamous relationships leads to, I, I think that's the stem of

• 49:53Shawn Ryan?

  a lot of problems that we see with couples today.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  I agree with you.

• 49:58Shawn Ryan?

  I think it all, I, I mean, I don't know, I think that, that, that bad sex life stems from self-confidence. I believe that, and I believe, I could be way off, but that's why you're here. And then I think that, that, you know, that, that, that the marital problems, a lot of marital problems stem from an unhealthy sex life.

• 50:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, I completely agree with you. And this is, I'm glad that you're saying this because this is the battle that Xander and I are constantly fighting in our business is trying to help people realize sex is not just sex. Sex is not just putting body parts in other body parts. Sex is the way we express love for each other. Sex is the way that we create intimacy with each other, that we feel close to each other. It's a way that we play together. It's a way we explore ourselves and each other. It's a way we're vulnerable and open and raw with each other. It's this thing that we do that we don't do with anybody else in our lives. It's a special thing that just the two of us do.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  It's not just this act that we do, it's a journey that we take together. And if that Connection isn't in place in a relationship. There are so many other aspects that are going to be damaged. I don't think that you can have a healthy relationship without a healthy, active sex life. Aside from a very small percentage of people who are asexual, I don't think you can have a healthy sex life.

• 51:27Shawn Ryan?

  Can you pick out in couples who has a healthy sex life and who doesn't? Can you see it immediately?

• 51:34Speaker 03

  You can. I mean, I have never been tested on this. Maybe if somebody wants to fund some testing, see how good my radar is on this. But I can usually sense it. Yeah, you can see like it's in the way a couple looks at each other. Do they make eye contact with each other? Do they touch each other? Is there that kind of like mischievous little grin they have when they look at each other? Are they standing close to each other? There's a lot of body language between a couple that's connected versus a couple that's disconnected.

• 52:06Shawn Ryan?

  How many couples do you think there are that have bad sex life?

• 52:12Speaker 03

  I would venture to say the majority of couples. I'd say it's more common to have a bad sex life than a good one.

• 52:17Shawn Ryan?

  Bad.

• 52:18Speaker 03

  And I know, it bums me out. It really bums me out. And that's why I'm so passionate about doing this work is that I want more people to be able to be connected, to be able to experience it. Because we, most of us have had, like we've, most of us have had that experience of great sex. Where it just, oh, I'm curious for you, like when you've had, and you don't have to share any like specific detail, but like when you've had really great sex, what mindset does that take you to?

• 52:49Speaker 03

  What do you feel afterwards?

• 52:51Shawn Ryan?

  I've been at, I feel great. I feel, I feel confident. I feel.

• 53:00Shawn Ryan?

  Closer to my wife, I feel, I mean, it just, it's, I think it's a, I think it relieves a lot of stress.

• 53:07Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 53:08Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and, and, um, and, yeah, I, that's, that's what comes to my head.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. Yeah, it's a, it's an amazing experience. There's this high that we get. We actually have really great research showing that when a couple has great sex, there's an emotional high that lingers for about 24 to 48 hours afterwards. There's this afterglow that we experience. And then on the other hand, how about you guess, guess this, if a couple is feeling disconnected sexually, or they've had like a bad sexual experience, how long will that last?

• 53:45Shawn Ryan?

  I have no idea.

• 53:47Speaker 03

  Seventy-two hours.

• 53:48Shawn Ryan?

  Seventy-two hours.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  So there's a more, a bigger impact from having disconnection than there is from having good connection.

• 53:57Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:58Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 53:58Speaker 03

  So not only, if we're, if we're disconnected from our partner, not only are we missing out on that confidence, that closeness, that like top of the world, I've got all the energy, all my stress is relieved, we're missing out on that feeling, and we're having this longer period of feeling really low.

• 54:15Shawn Ryan?

  Man, you know, I think the other thing I feel is, uh, I just, I'm like, um, sounds probably weird, but I'm, I'm proud of us, like, that, that we have a, a healthy sex life.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  Mm hmm.

• 54:29Shawn Ryan?

  Like, I'm, I'm, cause I, I see other couples, you know, that, that, I just see it, I'm like,

• 54:35Shawn Ryan?

  yeah, they're not.

• 54:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:37Shawn Ryan?

  They're not getting laid over there.

• 54:39Speaker 03

  And that's such a, you know, so you have the radar too.

• 54:42Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I have the radar. I, I just, I see it. It's like, oh, man, you know?

• 54:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's a really cool feeling to feel proud of yourselves. Like, how cool a feeling is that? Like, hey, I'm, I'm so proud of us that, like, we have all, all the stuff in the world, like, stacked up against a sex life. You know, we're all so busy, we're stressed out, we don't have any time, the kids get in the way, there's no privacy, like, there's so much stacked up against us. So, to be able to really say, like, you know what? You and I, we prioritize each other. We don't make excuses, we don't settle. We are willing to make that time, to make that effort, to prioritize us, to make sure we don't get lost in, you know, all the craziness of the world.

• 55:27Shawn Ryan?

  How mu- how mu- I mean, is it attractive for women? I mean, it's, it's attractive for me to see that, you know, my, my wife cares about how she looks, she cares about how she dresses around the house, like, you know, we've been through two pregnancies and, and things can get lax during pregnancy, you know, you know what I mean? But, and then it takes a little bit to get back on track, but, I mean, when I see my wife putting in the effort to look good, you know what I mean? And, and I think when she sees, you know, me putting in the same effort, I think, I think that shit is extremely important.

• 56:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it reminds us of, of the beginning of the relationship. Like, we put so much effort and we want to put our best foot forward for our partner. You know, I want to look good for you, I want to impress you, I want you to think that I'm sexy and attractive and, and admire me. And that's so much fun to feel that feeling and, and that's, you know, that's what happens. A lot of us let our foot off the gas, we coast, we stop taking care of ourselves, we think, you know, I got it locked down, I don't have to work at this anymore. But I think it's very, very attractive for people to see their partner still making that effort. And I think that's, that's what real intimacy is in a long-term relationship. Like, I love with Xander, I love that I can have those days where, hey, I'm not feeling

• 56:53Speaker 03

  my hottest, I can put on my sweats, I can wear your t-shirt, I can have my hair just in a messy bun, and he still thinks I'm attractive and I feel safe and I feel comfortable around him, and I'm still, you know, the majority of the time. Making an effort to take care of myself, to look good for him, to be the kind of person that he's gonna be proud to have on his arm. It's like both, being able to have both, I think is really nice.

• 57:15Shawn Ryan?

  So how do you open up communication when one or the other starts going off the rails and isn't taking care of themselves and, and they're losing their attractiveness, or, you know, things like that. It's, it's, you know, it's, it's the, it's the, another forbidden topic that's, that's, how do you broach that? Because I see that in so many couples, where one is like, that one's not putting any effort in. You know, and, and, so how do you, how do you broach the subject? How do you?

• 57:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 57:48Shawn Ryan?

  How do you do it?

• 57:49Speaker 03

  You go right in with, you're looking like a real slob lately.

• 57:53Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's clean this up.

• 57:54Speaker 03

  We obviously have to, have to approach this one sensitively, because truly what's happening in a lot of these cases is there's something deeper going on with that person. None of us consciously wakes up and says, you know what? I wanna look like a slob today. I just want, I want my partner to just be completely unattracted to me. It's usually there's something else going on. We're experiencing some depression, there's some stress, maybe a family member is ill, something's not going right at work, you know, there's something deeper that's going on. So we wanna address that rather than the pure physical appearances at first. So what I would say, like if this, if Xander was not taking care of himself, for example, I would say to him like, hey babe, I wanna, you know, I wanna talk to you about something

• 58:39Speaker 03

  sensitive. I've just been noticing lately that you're not treating yourself with the same love and respect that I normally see you treating yourself with. And I just wanna check in on you and see how you're doing, cuz I, I know you deserve to treat yourself with that kindness. So if I phrase it more about like, love and respect for yourself, rather than, you've gained weight, you're not brushing your teeth, you're looking like a slob, like that's, that just feels a lot gentler.

• 59:07Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 59:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:08Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, alright, let's move on to the next category here.

• 59:12Speaker 03

  Okay, so the third conversation that we get into is desire. What do we each need to feel excited about sex, to feel open to it? So it connects, you know, we put these conversations in the specific order. You know, obviously, we talked already about the connection between, you know, emotional intimacy and physical intimacy. Physical intimacy also connects to the, I'll give you a little preview. The fourth one that is coming is desire. But yeah, so this one is all about, uh, what do we need to feel excited about being intimate? So this is the conversation where we talk about the initiation styles. Like, how is it that we like to be initiated? Another really important thing that we talk about in this chapter is the two sex drive types. Have you heard about this before?

• 59:56Speaker 03

  Spontaneous and responsive?

• 59:58Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 59:59Speaker 03

  Okay, this is really important, very game-changing information, especially if you're somebody who thinks of yourself as being low desire or no desire. So, any women out there beating themselves up, like, this is, this is the information for you. So, there are two different sex drive types. And they are based on how we feel desire. So there are two different places that we feel desire. So you feel mental desire, this is the first one. That's when the idea of sex just kind of pops into your head. Oftentimes, it feels random. It's just the idea of sex sounds good. Yeah, I think I want to have sex right now. So that's the first place. The second place is we feel it in our body. So our body physically gets ready and excited for sex.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  So that's things like getting wet, getting hard, heart rate starting to increase, breath rate starting to increase. So the two sex drive types depend on where you feel desire first. So first off, we have spontaneous. That's when you feel mental desire first, and then the physical arousal follows. So, any sex scene that you've seen on TV and movies, that's always spontaneous desire. There's that kind of like, out of nowhere, like, hmm, sex sounds good. Where's my partner? Let me go in for the boo-pong.

• 1:01:13Speaker 03

  And so, research shows that about 85% of men have spontaneous desire. And only about 15 to 20% of women do. Most of us don't even know that responsive desire exists. But research shows that about 85% of women have responsive desire. And so, most of us women are thinking, you know, "Why do I never seem to want sex spontaneously? The idea of sex never seems to pop into my head. We feel like something's wrong with us." Nothing is wrong with you. It's just that you have the other type of desire. So responsive desire is the exact opposite of spontaneous. We need to feel it in our bodies first before the mental interest kicks in.

• 1:01:57Speaker 03

  So a classic thing that happens to somebody who has responsive desire is they'll be in the middle of sex or even at the end of sex, and they'll catch themselves thinking, "This is fun. Why do I never seem to want this?"

• 1:02:10Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 1:02:11Speaker 03

  So again, it's not that anything's wrong with you. It's just you have to understand how your desire type works. And one of the big problems with initiation is a lot of us are initiating in spontaneous ways. We ask, "Do you want to have sex?" That's a spontaneous initiation. So if you ask somebody with responsive desire, "Do you want to have sex right now?", 99 times out of 100, their answer is going to be no because they haven't had any sort of physical stimulation yet. They're not going to be a yes until they have some physical stimulation. So, and it's usually the case that one partner is spontaneous and the other partner is responsive. So this is yet another way that we're missing each other and thinking like, "Why do we never want to have sex at the same time?"

• 1:02:54Speaker 03

  So you're going to likely have different types. So we need to think about initiating in slightly different ways. So going back to how I was telling you that Xander and I have started like separating initiation from the actual sex, that's something that can help. So maybe what you're, you know, you're initiating earlier in the day. So it gives your partner some time to like get into their body. Maybe you agree, like what we do is we have massages for a couple of minutes beforehand, and then we decide, "Do we want to do more or do we not want to do more?" Or we make out for a while and then we decide. But you have to have some sort of physical stimulation first. Otherwise, the person with responsive desire is always going to be, "No, I don't want to have sex right now. Nothing's happening. Why would I want it?"

• 1:03:38Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha. Gotcha.

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:40Shawn Ryan?

  And so then we move into pleasure, correct?

• 1:03:43Speaker 03

  Pleasure is the fourth conversation. Yeah, what do we need to feel good, to have a good time, to avoid the mushy broccoli problem?

• 1:03:53Speaker 03

  So in that chapter, that's where I talk all about the clitoris and that comparison of intercourse for a woman being like playing with a man's balls. It's really important, you know, just most of us don't know that information. So again, it's nobody's fault. Nobody's trying to do a bad job, but just understanding like this is how it actually works. That's the really important thing. We also talk a lot in that chapter about how to give each other feedback during sex, too. That's another area that so many of us struggle with. Like, we don't know how to give feedback. It feels really awkward to give feedback. So we talk about our unique approach to it is what we call positively pleasurable feedback.

• 1:04:33Speaker 03

  So any feedback that you want to give to your partner, frame it positively. Nobody responds well to negative feedback, right? Actually, this is funny. So yesterday, I was trying to decide what outfit I was going to wear to this interview. And so I posted on my stories, I said, you know, here's outfit one, here's outfit two. Please vote, tell me which outfit do you think I should wear? And I got a ton of DMs from people saying like, outfit one is horrible. You look terrible in that. Don't wear that one. And I thought, oh, no, this is how we're giving feedback in the bedroom, too. Is it's just easier for our weird human brains sometimes to go to the negative and give that negative feedback.

• 1:05:16Speaker 03

  But imagine you're with your wife and you're trying to be intimate with her and she's, don't do that, that's terrible, that feels awful. You're going to freak out in that moment, right? You're going to feel super embarrassed. You're not going to want to do anything new or different. You're just going to kind of freeze in that moment. So we can't give negative feedback. It just doesn't work. Instead, we need to do positive. So I'll give you an example. So one of the things that we hear from women most often about sex with men is women tell us, we want you to slow down. Like, women love being teased. This is a huge difference between men and women. For women, a lot of women will say, "The tease, for me, is the best part of sex."

• 1:05:59Speaker 03

  And a lot of men will tell me, "Don't tease me. Like, go for the goods." Like, "I wanna get it started. It tickles when you tease me. It doesn't feel good when you tease." So, this is a big misunderstanding, but a lot of women, they're like, "No, like, go slow. Go to the point where you're like, 'I'm having to beg you for more.'" That's what's sexy for us. So, if you're, you know, if you're being intimate with your wife, and your wife's like, "Slow down. You're going so fast." Again, like, that's not gonna feel good, great, right? But instead, if a woman says something like, "You know what is so sexy for me? When you just go so slow, when you get me to the point where I am begging you for more." If you're hearing that as a guy, okay, first of all, that sounds hot.

• 1:06:42Speaker 03

  You're like, "Please give me more feedback. This is great." But, it's also making you feel like you've already won. Because she's phrasing it in this way of, "You know what's so hot? When you do this." And you can do this, even if your partner hasn't done this. They haven't done it in a while. They've never done it. It's okay. You can still say, "It's so hot when you do this." Because it makes them feel like they've won. They're doing a good job, right? And it makes them feel more motivated to do that actual thing.

• 1:07:07Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:07:09Speaker 03

  So, that's a good one. And another thing with feedback, we have a little game that we call the Eye Exam Game. So, you know, when you're getting your vision tested, and they show you, okay, put the little, you know, contraption on. Like, okay, which one is more clear? One or two? When you just have two options to choose from, it's pretty easy to pick one, right? Like, you don't go into that exam saying, "Here's how I want my vision to look like." Like, they just shit one or two. So, you can do the same thing with sex. So, let's say, you're just, you know, you're just stroking your partner's arm. Try stroking it one way, and then maybe try another, a deeper pressure, or more of a massage. And ask your partner, "Which one do you like better? Do you like it better when I do this, or when I do this?" So, as the person receiving that touch, it's easier to choose.

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Because that's something that comes up for so many of us women. We don't know how to give feedback. It's, "I don't know what I need to orgasm. I don't know what feels good, so I don't know what to tell you." A lot of us get, we put this pressure on ourselves. We think like, if a man asks, "Hey, what do you want?" It's like, I feel like I've got to write down this, you know, 10-page manifesto of, "Okay, first do this, and then do this, and then if you do this, I'll really like it," you know, and it's overwhelming. But instead, if it's just, "Which one is better, this one or this one?" And you can do that with everything during sex. Try two different positions. Try do two different oral sex techniques. It feels fun and sexy, but it's also giving you both really valuable information.

• 1:08:31Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Good feedback. All right. Exploration.

• 1:08:37Speaker 03

  Exploration. That is our final conversation that we move into. So, everybody's heard the advice, like, "Keep it spicy. Try new things in the bedroom." And it actually is really good advice. It sounds cheesy, but it's good advice. We have research showing that when we do new things with our partner, inside and outside of the bedroom, our brains light up. Our brains love novelty. And it gives us that feeling of getting to know our partner all over again, of seeing them in a new light. So, this chapter's all about how do we actually try new things? Because what I've found in long-term relationships is that we have this tendency to narrow down what sex looks like. So, I'll throw Xander

• 1:09:20Speaker 03

  and I under the bus. When we first started having sex, it was like this buffet of options, all these different choices, all these different things that we were doing. And then you get a few years into it, and that buffet has narrowed down into a fixed menu with very few options. And so, sex between us would look like a couple seconds of making out, a couple seconds of some groping, and then we're just right on to the intercourse, right? And it's just not very exciting. You know exactly what's coming. You can predict it. You could script it out. And it doesn't feel very exciting. But I've found that the longer that couples are in relationships, it actually feels more intimidating to try

• 1:10:03Speaker 03

  new things, to break out of that mold. So, there are so many couples who are having just very routine sex, doing the same thing over and over again. And it may not even be bad sex. When Xander and I have sex like that, like, we both still have orgasms. It still feels good. We've still connected. But it's not great sex either, right? So, it's how do we expand that repertoire out a little bit more? So, one of the big mistakes that couples make here is they hear "try new things in the bedroom," and they think, Oh God, well now I have to like have a threesome and we've got to do some like kinky Fifty Shades of Grey stuff. I need to like get the ropes and tire up and we're hanging for the rafters and all that kind of stuff. Like we get very overwhelmed and intimidated, right?

• 1:10:46Speaker 03

  But that doesn't have to be the case. So the best starting point that I tell couples is think about what's something that you used to do with your partner that you haven't done in a long time. Doesn't have to be brand new, just something that you used to do that you haven't done in a while. So maybe it's, it could be as simple as, you know what? We used to make out a lot more, like a lot longer. Or it could be, we used to do this one position. I don't know why we stopped doing that. It was such a great position, but we just haven't done it in forever. Or we used to have sex on the couch instead of in the bed every single time. So just bring back something that you used to do. You'll have the confidence of knowing, we've done this before, we enjoyed it, but you'll

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  still get that, those benefits of trying something new. And then from there, if you want to try things that you've never tried before, that's totally great, but you don't have to do that. It's really just making sure to, to keep cycling in those things that you actually do enjoy.

• 1:11:45Shawn Ryan?

  So when you're talking to, you know, your couples, patients, do you call them patients?

• 1:11:51Speaker 03

  No, I just call, yeah, couples.

• 1:11:53Shawn Ryan?

  Clients?

• 1:11:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:11:55Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, how do you get them to be comfortable with, with, with suggestions in the bedroom when, when people are trying to spark it up a little bit?

• 1:12:04Speaker 03

  I have a little trick that I call the, the dream scheme. Tell your partner you had a dream about it. It doesn't have to be true. It's a little tiny lie, which I don't normally advocate for, but if it gets you talking about sex, I'll, I'll be for it. So just tell your partner, you know what? I had a dream last night that we were doing X, Y, Z, and I just can't get that out of my mind now. It was very sexy in the dream. That's also a great way to introduce something brand new, because it gives you a chance to gauge your partner's reaction. You can say something like, you know, I've, I've never thought about doing that before. You and I have never done that before, but the dream was pretty fun and now I can't, kind of can't get it out of my mind. If your partner says like, hmm. Yeah, that's interesting, but I'm not sure I'm open to doing that. You know, that's okay. Or they might say, oh, that's kind of interesting.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  Maybe we could play around with that. So that's a nice way to introduce it. Or use this podcast as an example. I love using podcasts as opportunities to open up conversations. Hey, Sean and Vanessa, we're talking about trying new things in the bedroom, and it got me thinking about X, Y, Z. That can be a great way, too.

• 1:13:07Shawn Ryan?

  Do you make suggestions on things they should be trying in the bedroom?

• 1:13:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, and again, it's really keeping it simple. Like, positions can be a great way to mix things up. And again, it doesn't feel super overwhelming. It doesn't feel wildly out of your comfort zone. But positions can make a big difference. And even making small tweaks on positions that you already do. So try putting a pillow underneath your hips. Try, you know, instead of propping yourself up, bringing yourself down. Try twisting your body, you know, at a slightly different angle. So like, make a little change to an old standby or an old favorite position. And sometimes even just the smallest changes in the angle can feel like a totally different experience.

• 1:13:49Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:13:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:50Shawn Ryan?

  What about, I mean, what about things like lingerie, role-playing, all these, you know?

• 1:13:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, those are great, too. This is another, a really funny misunderstanding between men and women about lingerie. Women are always telling me, like, what's the point? You see it for, you know, 10 seconds, and then it's on the ground. Like, what's the point of putting it on in the first place? And so I always have to tell them. There's a point. Maybe you can tell them for me. What is the point? Tell me, Sean, what is the point to putting on lingerie?

• 1:14:20Shawn Ryan?

  It's something new. It's sexy. It's something that you don't see, you know, you're spousing every day. Maybe you do, I don't know. But, um, but, uh, I mean, it's just, it's just one of those extra sparks.

• 1:14:39Speaker 03

  So to you, it's worth it, even if it ends up on the floor 10 seconds later?

• 1:14:42Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, yeah, definitely.

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  I also like to compare it to wrapping a gift. It's like, it's the exact same thing. You take the paper off in 10 seconds and throw it away. But like, we all wrap our gifts.

• 1:14:52Shawn Ryan?

  Great analogy.

• 1:14:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, it's fun. It makes it look, it looks prettier. It feels exciting to open it up. So it's the same kind of thing.

• 1:14:59Shawn Ryan?

  What else? What else?

• 1:15:02Speaker 03

  Um, I mean, playing with toys can be fun, too. You know, there are definitely a lot of toys to experiment with in the bedroom. Dirty talk is another great one. We love encouraging couples to get more comfortable communicating during sex. And again, a lot, this is another way that people go to extremes. They think, dirty talk, like, oh, I'm gonna have to sound like some cheesy porn star. I don't wanna, you know, be saying all these ridiculous, like, ma'am, you forgot your, you know, here's your pizza, you forgot the payment for it, you know?

• 1:15:31Speaker 03

  But, uh,

• 1:15:34Speaker 03

  I think the dirty talk, it doesn't have to be graphic and it doesn't have to be cheesy. For me, dirty talk is all about finding your authentic voice in the bedroom. So this, it's actually part of our, um, we have a membership for couples. We have a whole dirty talk guide in there where we, we go through, um, finding the specific words. So even words for body parts, everybody has their own preferences. People will say, oh, I really like that word, oh, I don't like that word. So finding the specific words that you like or looking at examples and saying, yeah, it would sound really hot to me to hear that versus, hmm, that one's a little too, you know, over, overboard for me. So experimenting with that. But dirty talk can be very simple. Something like, I want you. You look so good right now.

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  I can't wait another second. You know, it doesn't have to be complicated, but it can still feel really fun. Or in the moment, too, like, that feels so good. Don't stop. That can be very fun.

• 1:16:30Shawn Ryan?

  What about stuff like, uh, Kama Sutra?

• 1:16:35Speaker 03

  So the Kama Sutra is mostly positions. And there are some that work and a lot that don't.

• 1:16:43Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:44Speaker 03

  Yeah. I would, you know, if it, if it interests you to check that out, the text out from more of a historical standpoint, sure, but I don't find it to be the greatest resource personally.

• 1:16:54Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:16:55Speaker 03

  Oh, but you know what? I want to go back to the dirty talk conversation because this is something that we hear from women all the time that I think men might be surprised to hear. Women want you to make more noise. Women tell us all the time, my man is silent during sex. No noise, no talking, I like, and I don't know what's going on with him. Is he having a good time? Is he bored? Women are desperate for men to make more noise during sex and they think it's really sexy, too. Like, they want to hear your, I think in the same, you know, men love hearing women's noises, right? Am I right? We want to hear your noises, too.

• 1:17:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:17:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:35Shawn Ryan?

  Good to know. All right, let's take a quick break and then when we come back, I just got a bunch of random questions.

• 1:17:41Speaker 03

  All right.

• 1:17:42Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 1:17:46Speaker 00

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• 1:18:57Shawn Ryan?

  All right, Vanessa, we're back from the break. When we kicked this interview off, I asked, how much sex should we be having? So I'd like to, I'd like to loop back around to that. What are, well, I'll let you answer that, and then I got some more questions spinning off of that, but...

• 1:19:11Speaker 03

  Okay, so I started telling you, there's no one magic number that every couple should be having. And if we're just trying to hit a quota, it's probably not going to be very good sex. But that being said, I do think that if you are asking yourself, how much sex should we be having? Are we having enough? Likely, the answer is, you should be having more sex. I do think that people benefit, the more sex that we have, the more connected we feel. And I think this is another way that we downplay sex. Like, nobody would ever say, oh, you guys want to go on more date nights? You guys want to spend more quality time together? Like, we think, we look at it as, oh, yeah, the more we do that, the more quality time we spend together, the more nice stuff we do together, like, the better.

• 1:19:54Speaker 03

  And I do think the same is true, to an extent, when it comes to sex. But in particular, what I want people to get used to is this idea that we have to be intentional about making the time, space, and energy for sex. We can't just rely on it to happen, hope that it'll happen. You know, the vast majority of us, if we just kind of sit around waiting for it to happen, we're going to bed, night after night, without doing it. So I think the vast majority of couples would really benefit from being more intentional about having more sex.

• 1:20:25Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm. What, I mean, I'm looking for a number here, doll.

• 1:20:30Speaker 03

  Okay, I can tell you research. So there is research showing that the more couples have sex, the happier they are, up to once a week. And at once a week, it shows that there's not any additional benefit from there. To me, though, once a week feels pretty low. So I'm surprised by those findings, and it's not necessarily what I see in our community. I think that most people could benefit from having sex more than once a week. But if you want to go by what the research shows, at least once a week, and you'll be in pretty good shape.

• 1:21:04Shawn Ryan?

  That's not enough.

• 1:21:05Speaker 03

  I don't think it's enough either.

• 1:21:07Shawn Ryan?

  That's not enough. What, in your specific clients that you talk to, is there a happy medium where you see, hey, you know, I don't know? Two times a week, five times a week.

• 1:21:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:20Shawn Ryan?

  Every day.

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  We polled our community and we put together a pretty extensive poll. We've, at this point, we've had about 75,000 people fill it out. And we asked about frequency and about satisfaction. And we found that 75% of people fell into one of three buckets. And they were evenly divided, 25, 25, 25. And those buckets were two to three times per month, once a week, and two to three times per week. And we found that across those three buckets, there were no changes in satisfaction. The people who were doing it two to three times a week were just as happy as the people who were doing it two to three times a month. And again, that surprised me too, because two to three times a month doesn't seem like the most. So that was really interesting to see.

• 1:22:05Speaker 03

  But I do think, you know, multiple times a week for most couples is going to be beneficial. And what I say is that there's a certain inertia that comes into place with sex. Do you remember inertia from high school physics class? It was like the object in motion stays in motion and object at rest stays at rest. That is very true when it comes to sex. So the more you get used to not having sex, the easier and easier it is each and every night to like, nah, okay, no, just go to sleep. Okay, we'll go to sleep again. But the more sex that you do have, the easier it feels to keep having sex. So Xander and I will have seasons of our relationship where we just have sex every day. And the easier it feels to just keep going every single day.

• 1:22:50Speaker 03

  So that's not necessarily, you know, again, the right thing for every couple, but I think couples should experiment with it. And should, again, the bottom line should be that you're making an active effort to have sex more often than you feel the desire for it.

• 1:23:03Shawn Ryan?

  Is there, I mean, is there a, is there a particular time of day that's better?

• 1:23:09Speaker 03

  The worst time of day is very last thing at night. And that is unfortunately when most couples have sex.

• 1:23:16Shawn Ryan?

  What if you are feeling good at the end of the day?

• 1:23:19Speaker 03

  Okay, if you're feeling, if you're feeling great at the very end of the night, sure, by all means, go for it. I want you to have sex whenever it feels good for you. But the pattern that most couples get into is we have this idea in our heads that sex is the last thing that we do at night. So you get ready for bed, you crawl into bed, and that's the time that we're supposed to be having sex. I don't know about you, but for me, by the time I'm crawling into bed, I am ready for bed. I want to go to sleep. It's a really hard time to all of a sudden then get excited about having sex with my husband. And most couples will tell me the same thing, like, I'm exhausted when I get into bed. My head hits the pillow and I'm asleep 10 seconds later.

• 1:23:59Speaker 03

  Where you're starting to do that horrible math in your head of, okay, if I fall asleep right now, then I can get, you know, seven hours of sleep. So it's just a tough time to get really excited about it. So I always tell couples prioritize sex as early in the evening or in the day. If you have the space to do it in the morning or during the day, that's great. But if you're, you know, like most people, you have nine to five jobs, you're not really home back together until the, you know, around five or 6 p.m. As early in the day as you can. So maybe that's putting the kids to bed a little bit earlier. Or even if it's as simple as we prioritize it before we do Netflix. Or we prioritize it over doing, folding the laundry, like prioritize it over something.

• 1:24:42Speaker 03

  Don't have it be the last thing that you're doing at the end of the night.

• 1:24:45Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. What about morning? I mean, are there any benefits to waking up and?

• 1:24:51Speaker 03

  Most men tend to feel horniest in the morning and get the best erections in the morning. So a lot of men love morning sex. Unfortunately, a lot of women do not.

• 1:25:01Shawn Ryan?

  Why?

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  They feel self-conscious about their breath. And I just think, you know what? Yeah, your breath is stinky, but you're both stinky. And you, you notice that stink for about two seconds and then you get over it. But if it really bothers you, a little, little package of, you know, Listerine strips in your bedside table can work wonders. That can be really fun. And I personally love starting the day, having sex. You feel kind of accomplished the rest of the day. Like we already, we did the best thing in the beginning of the day. You've got that extra pep in your step for the rest of the day. So I think the morning is a great time to do it.

• 1:25:33Shawn Ryan?

  Right on. And then, you know.

• 1:25:37Shawn Ryan?

  Right before, on the break, we were talking about no screens before sex. Why is that?

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  Yes, this is an experiment that Xander and I just started doing. We make ourselves guinea pigs for all my little harebrained ideas. But I was thinking a lot about how, how easy it is for us to fall into this routine of being on our phones, watching Netflix. Like, we're just like every other couple. The workday ends, we're tired. The idea of crashing out on the couch and putting on Love is Blind is, it feels so good. But the reality is, you never feel connected after that. You know, and that's unfortunately for most couples, that's their quality time, is we're both watching TV, but we're on our phones as we're watching the TV. There's, that's not connected. That's not quality time.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  So I got the idea of what if we, you know, playfully make ourselves earn our screen time? So I said, why don't we do, make a little rule for ourselves we'll experiment with, that we can't use screens until we've had sex. So we have our workday, we, we set a specific time of, you know, okay, 5:00 PM, that's when the workday ends. We're entrepreneurs like you, so we know it doesn't actually end at 5:00 PM. But we just kind of set that arbitrarily. And we said, past 5:00 PM, if it's not related to work, we're not allowed to get our screens until we've been intimate with each other. And that has been super fun for us to play around with. It just makes sure that we're prioritizing each other and make sure it's at a time when we have the energy, the excitement to be with each other.

• 1:27:10Speaker 03

  It's just been really, really fun. So again, that's not going to work for every couple's schedule. You know, if you've got kids around, of course, like, it's not going to be doable. But you could adjust that to, you know, kids go to bed and then that's the first thing that we do. We don't go to watch Netflix. We don't get our phone and scroll on Instagram. We're prioritizing each other.

• 1:27:26Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. That makes a lot of sense. Now, let's define great sex for both a man and a woman.

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  This is such a fascinating question that most of us have never taken the time to think about. And I'm actually, I'm gonna put you on the spot if you don't mind. And I'm gonna ask you to come up with your definition. Because this is an exercise that I recommend to all couples. You know, if you ask some random person, hey, do you want to have a great sex life? Most people are gonna say, yeah, of course I do. But when I ask them, okay, what does great mean to you? Most people will give me a deer in headlights look. They've never thought about that question before. So I tell couples, come up with three words that describe your ideal sex life. Or three words that describe how you want to feel during sex. So if you don't mind sharing, you don't have to.

• 1:28:20Speaker 03

  But I'll give you some examples. So for me, one of my words is playful. I'm a goofy person. Xander's a super goofy person. I think, you know, so many of us have the tendency to think sex has to be so serious. And sometimes that's fun. But I feel the most connected to Xander when I feel like I can be my full self in the bedroom with him. And sometimes that's just being silly and playful during sex, like not being quite so serious. So for me, when I feel like we've really played with each other, that's when I feel super connected to him. Another one of my words is escapism. For me, the best sex is when it feels like time stands still.

• 1:29:03Speaker 03

  The rest of the world just drops away. And it's just the two of us in that moment together, connecting with each other, like being with each other. So that sense of it's a place that we're going to. It's not just this physical thing that we're doing with our bodies.

• 1:29:18Shawn Ryan?

  What was that word?

• 1:29:19Speaker 03

  Like escapism.

• 1:29:20Shawn Ryan?

  Escapism, okay.

• 1:29:22Speaker 03

  But it could be adventurous. It could be safe. It could be exploratory. Any words come into mind for you?

• 1:29:35Shawn Ryan?

  Orgasm comes to my mind, especially for

• 1:29:39Speaker 03

  That's a good one.

• 1:29:40Shawn Ryan?

  For her.

• 1:29:44Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know. I think length of sex, orgasm, and...

• 1:29:51Speaker 03

  What about some of the words when I was asking you earlier, like how you feel after you've had really great sex? You were saying confident.

• 1:29:58Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:59Speaker 03

  Confident, connected.

• 1:30:02Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I think, I mean, I think confidence, just, it's just, I think that goes for both parties.

• 1:30:09Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:30:10Shawn Ryan?

  You have to feel confident, you know, being naked.

• 1:30:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:30:14Shawn Ryan?

  If you don't, then it's probably not gonna go great, right?

• 1:30:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that is a huge thing that comes up unfortunately for so many women. We really struggle with that. That's another way that men can help women out in the bedroom. We are so, so self-conscious of our bodies. We've been taught to be that way our entire lives. I mean, I grew up in the 90s. I will never forget being in the grocery store checkout line with my parents and seeing all the, you know, Cosmo magazines of like six positions to hide your belly flab. That's how I grew up, being taught like, how do I hide my body during sex? I don't want my partner to see my flab, my rolls, my imperfections. And that's what, you know, most, most of us women are thinking during sex a lot of the time.

• 1:31:01Speaker 03

  I remember Xander and I had a conversation about it. I asked him like, what are you thinking about your body when we have sex? He looked at me like, he couldn't even understand the question, like, what do you, what do you mean? And I said, well, do you feel self-conscious of your body, like when we're having sex? Why would I be self-conscious of my body? I'm having sex with you. Like, he could not comprehend it. Maybe you can't either. Like, he could not comprehend that that's where my brain is trained to go. Is, is he seeing my belly flab in this position? So, men can really help women out by complimenting us, by telling us how sexy you think our bodies are,

• 1:31:41Speaker 03

  by reassuring us, like, the things that you think you see in your body, I am not seeing those things. And this is especially true for, you know, women who've given birth and they feel like, I don't, you know, I don't look the same. If you've been together a long time, like, oh, he probably wishes my body looked like it did when we were in our 20s and we met, and now I'm in my 40s and things are starting to droop and sag and all that. Like, we're, it's really hard for us.

• 1:32:05Shawn Ryan?

  What about duration? How long should it go?

• 1:32:08Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a great question. This is another, like, it's a really common misunderstanding between couples, and it's a conversation most couples have never had. Most men think the longer, the better. You know, you grow up hearing some songs like "We'll Go All Night Long", you know, "Do It Till The Sun Comes Up", like, you get that idea in your head. It's supposed to last a long time. When we ask women, though, women don't want it to last that long. We asked, um, we polled our audience on ideal length, and men thought, and when, men thought that intercourse, just the intercourse part of it, should last 20 minutes or more. For women, the ideal length was five to seven minutes.

• 1:32:48Shawn Ryan?

  Five to seven minutes?

• 1:32:50Speaker 03

  That's all we want, five to seven minutes. Which is, it should be good news for a lot of men, because on average, men last about two to three minutes. So, men are really stressing themselves out, lasting two to three minutes, but thinking they're supposed to last 30 plus.

• 1:33:08Shawn Ryan?

  What, I mean, what about, you know, positions?

• 1:33:13Speaker 03

  So, I mean, positions are a really fun thing to play around with. I do think a lot of people get anxious and self-conscious. A lot of that's like, you know, the body image stuff that comes up. Is this gonna show my roles? But we've asked, we polled our audience, and people said, on average, they liked about two to three positions per session. That felt fun for them. But there are a lot of people, a lot of people, who just do one position.

• 1:33:39Shawn Ryan?

  Really?

• 1:33:40Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm, and just missionary, the whole time, and every time. And that gets, that gets boring. I'm a fan of missionary. Missionary can be great, but if that's the only position you're doing every single time, you're gonna get tired of it.

• 1:33:53Shawn Ryan?

  What are the majority of, what positions do women like the most?

• 1:33:58Speaker 03

  The best position for women is her on top, cowgirl position. That is the easiest position for a woman to orgasm in. It creates the most stimulation. And I think it can be really empowering for women, too, because we're in control. You're dictating the movement, the angle, the pace, the depth. So it can feel intimidating for a lot of women if they haven't done it or they don't have a lot of confidence. And one of the big misconceptions that women have, which we get from porn, unfortunately, is we think we're supposed to be bouncing up and down like on a pogo stick kind of thing. And that's hard on your thighs. You can do that for maybe 20 to 30 seconds and your thighs start burning after that. So a lot of women avoid that position because they think that's what it's supposed to be.

• 1:34:43Speaker 03

  But actually, grinding is way more effective. It's going to feel more pleasurable for her. So it's using your hips to just rock back and forth rather than bouncing up and down. So you're going to be, as a woman, you're going to be able to last longer. It's going to create more stimulation because your clitoris can rub against your partner's abdomen. You can get a little stimulation that way. And the man will last longer in that position. It tends to be, it's not one of the most stimulating positions for men because you're not in control of it and it's a more subtle movement. But that can be nice since most women tend to last a lot longer than men do. Women need more time. So it can be a nice way to balance out the timing.

• 1:35:22Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:35:28Shawn Ryan?

  What else should we be talking about here?

• 1:35:31Speaker 03

  Should we talk about scheduling sex? That's another hot topic that comes up. Okay. So, yeah, a lot of people, as soon as they hear that phrase, scheduling sex, it just brings a real sense of dread. What are your impressions of scheduled sex?

• 1:35:49Shawn Ryan?

  I don't like it.

• 1:35:50Speaker 03

  Why don't you like it?

• 1:35:52Shawn Ryan?

  Because it feels scheduled.

• 1:35:54Speaker 03

  Okay, what's wrong with being scheduled?

• 1:35:56Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, nothing, I'll take it. But, um...

• 1:36:02Shawn Ryan?

  I guess it goes back to that conversation about spontaneous, you know, being spontaneous.

• 1:36:10Shawn Ryan?

  That's why, maybe, I don't know, I mean, we have kids, we, you know, we, we,

• 1:36:19Shawn Ryan?

  I don't know, we've never done it.

• 1:36:21Speaker 03

  Okay, so with your life, with kids, you're really busy with this show, you've got a lot going on. Do you have a whole lot of space for spontaneity in your life?

• 1:36:31Shawn Ryan?

  We make space for it.

• 1:36:34Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:36:34Shawn Ryan?

  I guess, if that makes sense.

• 1:36:36Speaker 03

  How do you make space for spontaneity?

• 1:36:37Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, how do I, how do I say that?

• 1:36:42Speaker 03

  Because that sounds a little bit like planning.

• 1:36:46Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I just say it. So I just, I just bring it up. But, you know, we'll schedule things like far in advance, you know, so to totally get away from the kids, we'll, we'll schedule, you know, vacations or small, you know, getaways in town where we could, you know, go somewhere else. And so we always have something on the schedule to get away and then, you know, whatever happens, happens, you know, during those getaways.

• 1:37:13Speaker 03

  Okay, I highly recommend that in general to, for couples to always have something on the calendar that's just the two of them. And I don't care if it has to be like due to budget or, you know, schedules. I don't care if it's two years in the future, have something on the calendar that's just the two of you that you can look forward to. So I'm glad you guys are doing that. But, okay, so let's, let's talk about one of your trips that you have on the calendar. You're scheduling that trip, right? So do you, does that trip lose some of its luster because you had to schedule it? Is it like, oh, yeah, we had to schedule this trip?

• 1:37:44Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 1:37:44Speaker 03

  If anything, I would venture that it feels more special because you've scheduled it, right? It's like, we know life is busy, but we are making sure to carve this time out for ourselves because this is important. I think the same can be true when it comes to sex. Where, yes, we can schedule sex in a very boring way. If you're getting out your calendars and like, okay, I have Wednesday from eight to eight twenty open, you know? Like, if we're scheduling it the way we schedule a dentist appointment, of course, it's gonna feel boring, right? But we can schedule it in a way that it's more about the respect that we're showing for each other and for our connection of, I know that our life is busy. It's full.

• 1:38:26Speaker 03

  I know it's really easy for the day to just totally get away from us. I wanna make sure, no matter what, we have time to spend together. We have time to be together, that we are prioritizing each other. So much of what we're talking about today is prioritizing each other, making each other feel important. And I think scheduling is a way that we can do that. The other funny thing to think about with scheduling, so let's go back to the beginning of your relationship with your wife. So you guys are going on dates, right? What are you doing? You're scheduling those dates, right? And then, once people start being intimate with each other, when you're scheduling a date, you're essentially scheduling sex. You know, once you start having sex and you know, okay, we're gonna go out to dinner

• 1:39:10Speaker 03

  on Friday, you know you're gonna have sex on Friday, too.

• 1:39:14Shawn Ryan?

  That's a good point.

• 1:39:15Speaker 03

  We've been scheduling sex from the very beginning. So it's not that it was so spontaneous and different in the beginning and now we're this boring old married couple and we're scheduled sex. Like, we've been doing it from the beginning. So it's just about changing our attitudes around it. So I actually don't use the phrase "scheduled sex" because it just sounds boring. I'll use intentional intimacy or planning for sex. So when I talked earlier about how Xander and I will talk in the beginning of the day, that's essentially scheduling sex. But it doesn't feel, you know, boring. It doesn't feel like a drag. It feels exciting. When are we gonna have the time for ourselves? When are we making sure we carve that time out? And I think we, we have this tendency to only look at scheduling in a negative way

• 1:40:00Speaker 03

  when it comes to sex. Like, here's another example. Think of your, your kids. Do they play any sports?

• 1:40:06Shawn Ryan?

  Jiu Jitsu.

• 1:40:07Speaker 03

  Okay, so your kid has a Jiu Jitsu with competition or a, what do they call it?

• 1:40:12Shawn Ryan?

  Well, he's four, so we're not.

• 1:40:13Speaker 03

  Okay, he's not quite there yet, but okay. Let's say at some point, he's got, he has a, you know, an event that you want to go to. What are you gonna do? You're going to schedule that, right? You're gonna put that in your calendar. It, let's say it happens in the middle of the day. Like, you're gonna tell your team, hey, Thursday from two to four, I'm out. I am not available. Don't contact me. It is important to me to show up for my kid. I'm gonna be there. And we look at that in such a positive way. Like, that is me showing my kid respect, showing him how much I love him, how important it is for me to be there. So, again, why can't we look at that in the same way with our partner when it comes to intimacy?

• 1:40:50Shawn Ryan?

  I think that, you know, when I think of my schedule, it is just things that I gotta knock out during the day. It's a check mark. You know, it's like a checklist, to-do list. And so, maybe that's why, maybe that's why I think of that, is I don't, I don't, I don't think of sex as just some, this is just something we gotta knock out during the day. So when somebody's.

• 1:41:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, it shouldn't be.

• 1:41:12Shawn Ryan?

  When, when, when couples schedule sex, I mean, how does the meeting go? All right, it's.

• 1:41:23Speaker 03

  It's time. Get in the bedroom.

• 1:41:25Shawn Ryan?

  What's?

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  So it can, you can do it in a lot of different ways. Some people genuinely like that idea of like having it be a specific time and they make it feel sexy. Like, I'm gonna meet you in the bedroom, you know, Wednesday at seven. And, you know, you can do fun role play stuff around that. So some couples, that works for. Other couples, like Xander and I, we have never scheduled sex with like a specific time. But we do talk more openly about, hey, I wanna have sex today. Can we make sure we're prioritizing that? So I still think there's, there's an element to scheduling around that, even if we're not nailing down the exact, you know, date and time that we're doing it.

• 1:42:00Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. I thought you meant, yeah.

• 1:42:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, it doesn't have to be. Yeah, it doesn't have to be. So some couples say like, you know, they know their schedules and they know, hey, Wednesdays are usually pretty good for us and Saturdays are usually pretty good for us. So sometimes it's just a knowing ahead of time. These are the days that tend to be the easiest, so let's make sure we make some time for each other. So it can be a lot looser than, you know, it's specifically written down somewhere.

• 1:42:25Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. What are the top three things couples can do if they're starting to feel like roommates?

• 1:42:34Speaker 03

  Such a great question. So I'm all about being very practical. I think a lot of people, you start drifting away, you're feeling disconnected, and a lot of people think like, "Oh, God, we have to go on a vacation together," or "Maybe we have to start therapy," or you feel like you have to do these big, grand gestures. And so I try to think about, what are the things that we can do on a daily basis that are small, quick, easy, but they're going to give us the maximum bang for our buck? So I came up with something that I call the GET intimate technique. And the GET stands for those three things, G E T, gratitude, eye contact, and touch. So I'll go through each of them. So gratitude. Everybody's heard

• 1:43:17Speaker 03

  of gratitude. I think a lot of us think it's a little bit cheesy. We kind of roll our eyes at it, like, "Oh, yeah, I'm going to get out my gratitude journal." But we have research showing that gratitude is the number one predictor of marital satisfaction.

• 1:43:31Speaker 00

  Really?

• 1:43:31Speaker 03

  Gratitude. Number one predictor.

• 1:43:35Speaker 00

  Wow.

• 1:43:36Speaker 03

  And what I love about gratitude, and actually, all three of these things, it's free, it's fast, it's easy, it feels good to give and to receive it. I think one of the greatest tragedies of relationships is that we choose to spend our life with somebody, and then we wind up feeling invisible to them. And so gratitude is a way to show your partner, "I still see you. I still appreciate you." And it's so easy. So it can be, you know, one sentence. It can take you five seconds, 10 seconds. So you can call out something that your partner did. "Hey, I saw that you took the trash out without asking. I really appreciate that." "Oh, hey, I appreciate that you packed kids' lunches. That's so great." Or it could be something about them as a person. "Have

• 1:44:21Speaker 03

  I told you lately how much you make me laugh?" So just take those few seconds every day. You can do this every day. And also, I would say, don't be afraid to set yourself up for success with something like this. When Xander and I were working on each of these things, we set calendar reminders for ourselves to do that. And I know that sounds very unromantic, very unsexy, but we're humans. We forget, despite the best of intentions, like, things just, you know, fall out of our minds. And so, we just set reminders to ourselves until we built that habit of, hey, say something nice to Xander, give him some appreciation. And then eventually, we built that habit, and now it comes more naturally. So, that's gratitude. That's

• 1:45:04Speaker 03

  number one. Second one is eye contact. It is wild how little eye contact couples make in long-term relationships. And I would challenge anybody listening, just spend a day noticing. Don't try to change anything. Just spend a day noticing how little eye contact you make with your partner. A lot of us, we don't even look up when our partner enters the room. And I actually stumbled upon this one because I realized I was doing it. I'm always on my phone, you know, Xander would come into the room. I wouldn't even show him the respect of looking up to acknowledge, like, hey, you're here. I see you. It goes back to the I see you, again. This is the way that we can literally show our partner, I see you. Again, there's nothing that feels worse than being in a relationship and feeling

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  lonely, feeling lonelier than you might if you were single, feeling like your partner just never even sees you. So, my favorite times for this, and the easiest times for this, are when you're saying hello and goodbye to each other. Take the time to make eye contact. Say goodbye. Say hello. You know, just those, and again, this can take five seconds, but it makes such a big difference. Also, eye contact during sex. That's another one. Most people have their eyes closed, or they're looking in opposite directions, and eye contact is such a great way to create real intimacy during sex. You'd be shocked at how vulnerable it feels. Most people can look at their partner for a few seconds, and then we have to turn away or close our eyes, because it just feels so vulnerable.

• 1:46:29Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:46:30Speaker 03

  So, that's the second one. And then, the third one is touch. I think I mentioned earlier that women, in particular, like, we really want to be touched more outside of sex. And men do, too. I think so many of us are feeling touch-starved in our relationships. We feel like we just don't have that physical contact with each other. A lot of us have gotten into the habit where we only touch, we only kiss each other during sex, or immediately in the lead-up to sex. And we start creating this really harmful pattern called the bristle reaction that we can talk about next. If that's the only time we're touching and kissing each other. So I want couples to reach out for each other, touch each other, kiss each other more often during the day.

• 1:47:13Speaker 03

  So there are two specific types of touch that we have research on. The 30-second hug and the 6-second kiss. So those are the approximate timeframes that our bodies need to release oxytocin, the bonding hormone, the love hormone. That's what makes us feel close to each other. And it's really cool because especially with a hug, you can feel it. So if you hug your wife, you can try this later. Give her a hug, stay in the hug. So first you'll notice like, this is an awkwardly long hug. And then if you wait it out a few more seconds, you will feel your body like melt into hers and hers melt into yours. It's such a cool feeling and it just makes us feel like so close and connected with each

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  other. But most of us like, we just don't hug anymore. Or it's a quick like, you know, super quick embrace before someone runs out the door. So those two kinds of touch in particular. Yeah, kissing is another one. A lot of us don't kiss that often, or we just do a tiny little peck. This is another pattern that Xander and I fell into. And so we actually created a rule for ourselves where now every night before bed, we make out with each other. Or it has to be at least like 30 seconds, doesn't have to be a super long time, but we realized we were only kissing during sex. And we realized like, I miss making out with you just for the sake of making out, not as an initiation, not to get things going, not during sex.

• 1:48:39Speaker 03

  Like, yes, those things are fun too, but there's something so fun about making out just for the sake of making out. It reminds us of being like teenagers again, when you can make out with somebody for hours and it was just like the most exciting thing in the world, right? So like, you can try, you know, try that little trick again too. Like when we first started doing it, we made an explicit rule of we are not allowed to have sex after this. Because that's not the point. This is not a get ourselves turned on to have sex. This is let's just make out again for the sake of making out. So that's been a really fun ritual that we have in our relationship. But another thing that couples can do is ask your partner. What are your three favorite places and ways to be touched?

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• 1:50:24Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I'm curious to know some of yours. Like, if your wife were to ask you, like, what are your absolute favorite ways to be touched? Or places that you like to be touched? In a non-sexual way?

• 1:50:34Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm, hugs.

• 1:50:36Speaker 03

  A hug.

• 1:50:37Shawn Ryan?

  Hugs would be number one.

• 1:50:39Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:50:40Shawn Ryan?

  Um, man, I don't know. I'm always thinking about touching her.

• 1:50:45Speaker 03

  Interesting.

• 1:50:46Shawn Ryan?

  So, or waist.

• 1:50:49Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:50:51Shawn Ryan?

  But me? I don't know.

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  Do you have a hard time receiving touch?

• 1:50:56Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 1:50:57Speaker 03

  Okay, just not something to think about? Could be like a shoulder rub, a pat on the butt.

• 1:51:02Shawn Ryan?

  Just anything.

• 1:51:02Speaker 03

  Squeeze, arm squeeze.

• 1:51:04Shawn Ryan?

  It's great.

• 1:51:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it can be a fun question to ask each other. Like, what are your favorite places to be touched? Because a lot of times, we're actually touching each other in ways that our partner doesn't actually like. So, I already mentioned, like, the boob honk, you know? Like, that doesn't count. That doesn't count in the touch. So, yeah, ask your partner, like, what are your favorite? And you could tell your partner, too, these are my favorite places of your body to touch. That's a sweet, that's a very sweet.

• 1:51:31Shawn Ryan?

  What are, what are three things that women wish men knew more about sex?

• 1:51:39Speaker 03

  Number one, slow down. We talked about this one already. Like, we really want you to slow down, to tease us, to just like draw out that experience a bit more.

• 1:51:53Speaker 03

  Number two.

• 1:51:55Shawn Ryan?

  So with the teasing.

• 1:51:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:56Shawn Ryan?

  With the teasing.

• 1:51:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:51:57Shawn Ryan?

  With the, you know, teasing to me means, what, foreplay, kind of, right?

• 1:52:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, like even, not even genital touching, like caresses, caressing her thigh, massaging her back, giving her like an actual back massage, kissing all down her neck. You know, so don't even go between her legs, like pay attention to the rest of her body. That feels really exciting for a woman.

• 1:52:20Shawn Ryan?

  Now, how, how long should men be doing that?

• 1:52:24Speaker 03

  I would say like five to 10 minutes.

• 1:52:27Shawn Ryan?

  Five to 10 minutes.

• 1:52:28Speaker 03

  And I think most men are probably 20 to 30 seconds on that, and then they want to move on to the other stuff. But again, like I said earlier, a lot of women will say, that's my favorite part. Like, you could spend 20 minutes doing that to me, and I would love that. You know, so the more time you can, you know, obviously, I want to be realistic, like, we don't always have time for.

• 1:52:47Shawn Ryan?

  So maybe do that until you get an invitation.

• 1:52:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:52:50Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:52:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, that would be really fun for a lot of women. So yeah, slow down with us, be more gentle with us, too. A lot of women like very delicate touch. And I think men tend to prefer more firm touch all over the body, but especially with the genitals. So this is something we hear about a lot with the clitoris. You know, men get excited, like, oh, I've heard about the clitoris now, the eight to 10, there's a nerve ending, I'm going to touch it, and they can be way too rough. So a good analogy is think about how you would touch your eyelid. Like, you know your eyelid's really delicate, you're not mashing your eyelid up, like you're going to touch it really gently. That's about the same amount of pressure that you would want to use to touch the clitoris.

• 1:53:30Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 1:53:32Speaker 03

  So that's the second one. And then the third one. When we say, don't stop, don't stop.

• 1:53:42Speaker 03

  Men here don't stop and they think, let me do something different. They get excited. They get really excited, they switch up the technique. And women, we're all about consistency. Once you find the thing that works, you need consistent stimulation to get us to reach orgasm. But again, men get excited, they want to switch up the technique, do something different. That sends us back to square one. We kind of have to start all over again. So, don't stop truly means don't stop.

• 1:54:09Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. I mean, I just, do you have any idea how much lack of sex plays into an unsuccessful marriage?

• 1:54:22Speaker 03

  It's one of the top three reasons couples split up. Kids, sex, and money are the top three. And so it's huge. And again, this is another, yet another reason why we have to stop thinking of sex as a purely physical act. It's a very important part of a relationship.

• 1:54:39Shawn Ryan?

  How often do you see it lead to infertility?

• 1:54:42Speaker 03

  Oh, all the time. And I want to be careful with this too, because a lot of women have gotten the message, if you don't give it to him, somebody else will. And so a lot of women interpret that as, you know, I just have to give it up. My, my needs, my pleasure don't matter. And the reality is like, that's not what men want. Like, men don't want pity sex. It's another huge misconception. So many women think like, oh, I'll just let him have it. Men don't want that. You don't like when we just lay there and, you know, we're not participating. Like, you want us to participate too. So yeah, I want to be careful in saying, this is not, you have to do it for him, otherwise he's going to sleep with somebody else. But yes, if, you know, if you're not connecting with each other, then it's a lot more common that people look for that connection with somebody else.

• 1:55:28Shawn Ryan?

  Is it common for, for, for women to?

• 1:55:34Shawn Ryan?

  Not get the sex that they want?

• 1:55:36Speaker 03

  Absolutely. You know, we have this idea that, yeah, we have this idea that men are always the one that have the higher sex drives. But when we polled our audience, we found that in forty-five percent of male female relationships, the woman is the one who has the higher sex drive.

• 1:55:51Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 1:55:51Speaker 03

  Forty-five percent. So that's just a casual Instagram poll. You know, it's not scientific, but we have over a million people there. So it's a pretty large sample size. And that blew people's minds when we shared that. Because there are so many women feeling alone and broken, so many men feeling ashamed about that, you know, because we all think it's supposed to be the guy who wants it more. But it's, it's very, very common for it to be the woman who does. And there's nothing wrong with that.

• 1:56:19Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I didn't hear it. I wasn't, I wasn't down here, but I know behind the scenes choking got brought up. So I was just curious. Is this, is this, is this a trend?

• 1:56:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. Unfortunately, choking is something that a lot of younger people are doing. It's become a pretty normalized sexual act. And a lot of people are doing it without fully asking for consent, or knowing how to properly do it. And, you know, the reality is, like, I, I want people to do whatever brings them pleasure and makes them feel good. So there's zero judgment about the specific activity. Whatever people want to do in their own bedroom is their business. But it does concern me that people are not talking about it openly because it is an extreme act, and it is something that can cause damage. There is some research that is just starting to come out right now, showing that people who are repeatedly choked

• 1:57:12Speaker 03

  during sex are having lasting neurological impacts. So it's, this is brand new research. There's still a lot more to explore, but there are implications to this activity. So I want to make sure if people are doing it, that they are making sure both partners are into it, they're talking about it beforehand, and they're doing it properly. So I can tell you really quickly, what you want to do is make sure you're exerting pressure on the sides of the throat, never, ever, ever on the front of the throat. The front is too sensitive. So it's, it's just on the sides.

• 1:57:43Shawn Ryan?

  Who's more into that, men or women?

• 1:57:47Speaker 03

  I would say both. Men are definitely the ones who are initiating it and men are the ones doing it because it's been normalized by porn. It's a pretty common activity that you see in porn. Spitting is another one. It's happening a lot more often.

• 1:58:00Shawn Ryan?

  Spitting?

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, spitting like on each other's faces, into each other's mouths, usually the man doing it onto the woman. So yeah, we're seeing because porn, you know, porn's meant to be entertainment, it shows more and more extreme acts to capture people's attention. And so now a lot of these behaviors that people are seeing are being normalized and being brought into, you know, casual sex. And again, there's nothing wrong with those specific behaviors themselves, as long as those people are consenting enthusiastically and know what they're doing.

• 1:58:31Shawn Ryan?

  So women, women are, they like that?

• 1:58:36Speaker 03

  Some women do.

• 1:58:36Shawn Ryan?

  Some women do.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, for some people, there's a, you know, this taboo power play around sex, around playing around with those dynamics of somebody being in control, somebody being submissive, somebody being, you know, kind of cruel or bossy, somebody, you know, taking it. So, I mean, sex is a way that we play. We play with these dynamics and sometimes it's because it feels so taboo and forbidden that makes it feel exciting for us. And sometimes it's places that we don't allow ourselves to go outside of the bedroom, we do allow ourselves to go inside of the bedroom. They become sexualized because we don't do that.

• 1:59:17Speaker 03

  So very commonly you'll see like people, CEOs, people in high positions of authority and power, like very in control of their day-to-day lives, often like being very submissive in the bedroom because it's something that they can't allow themselves or won't allow themselves to do in their normal day-to-day life.

• 1:59:35Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting, interesting. And then chore play?

• 1:59:39Speaker 03

  Chore play!

• 1:59:40Shawn Ryan?

  What is it?

• 1:59:42Speaker 03

  So chore play is doing chores as a form of foreplay. So I, I think chore play is hilarious and a lot of women genuinely love it. Like they love their husbands doing the vacuuming. Xander, uh, he's such a good sport. We've, uh, done a lot of chore play reels on our Instagram. So he'll get out that vacuum cleaner and, you know, be thrusting into it as he's doing it. Just like really hamming it up or, you know, he's, he's, uh, doing the dishes and, you know, really getting into the, the technique of it. Um, but yeah, so I, I want to be clear with it. It's not, sometimes people say, oh, well, we shouldn't reward, men shouldn't be rewarded

• 2:00:24Speaker 03

  for doing chores and we don't want to set up this dynamic of, oh, wash the dishes and then you get sex. Like we're all adults. We all need to participate in the boring, normal adult stuff of running a household. But I do think there's a way to play with it and like be silly and goofy about it. So Xander's not like earning sex from me. I expect him to do chores like a normal adult. But chores are boring. They suck. Neither one of us like to do them. So why not make it kind of fun and goofy and like be playful and silly about it. But I think ultimately at the end of the day, the reason that men, the reason that women love it so much is because we want to have a partner who feels like our equal, who feels like they're contributing to the household too.

• 2:01:09Speaker 03

  Um, you know, brings up a really important conversation about mental load. Have you heard that phrase before?

• 2:01:14Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:01:14Speaker 03

  Mental load? Yeah. So mental load is the invisible mental labor that goes into running a household. So we have chores and responsibilities that we have to do, but there's also behind each chore, a ton of mental labor. So it's not just, we have to go grocery shopping. That's the chore. The mental load is. Okay, we have to go grocery shopping on Friday because I have to make muffins for the soccer team on Saturday and I have to make sure to get all the ingredients for those muffins, but I can't get that brand of the muffin mix because the kids didn't like it last time. And oh, when we're there, we also need to remember to bring those coupons that I got and we need to get toilet paper. You know, it's like, it's just this constant, constant list that's going through our heads. And research shows that women hold the vast

• 2:01:58Speaker 03

  majority of the mental load and the responsibilities, like actual chores within a household. So I think every couple needs to divide things up in the way that feels right for them. You know, everybody's life looks different, work looks different, the choices that they choose to make look different. So I'm not saying it needs to be a 50/50 thing, but what we're hearing about from women, and especially a lot recently, is they're feeling like they're carrying the majority of the weight around the household and it feels like their partner is just yet another person that they have to take care of.

• 2:02:33Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:02:34Speaker 03

  And that doesn't feel very sexy to us women. You know, if we feel like we have to take care of you like we have to take care of our child, it's not sexy.

• 2:02:43Shawn Ryan?

  I can see that.

• 2:02:44Speaker 03

  So the real heart of chore play is like, yeah, you're my teammate. You're doing stuff around the house, too, and we can be funny and playful and silly about it.

• 2:02:51Shawn Ryan?

  So does it lead to sex?

• 2:02:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, it very often does. And it's part of, I talked earlier about that, like that take care of me initiation style. Chore play works really well for somebody who likes that, that style. Somebody saying, hey, let me take the kids, I'll handle them. Let me clean up after dinner. Let me, you know, get this off your plate. It feels really good. Like, oh, you're letting me relax. You're letting me have a moment to myself. You're letting me turn off all those million tabs in my brain just for a few minutes. That feels so good.

• 2:03:19Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. We've talked a little bit about lingerie for the women, you know, but, but should men be?

• 2:03:27Shawn Ryan?

  Wearing things that turn their, turn their woman on, I mean, would.

• 2:03:32Speaker 03

  Boxers without holes in them.

• 2:03:35Shawn Ryan?

  Boxers without holes in them.

• 2:03:37Speaker 03

  That's the, that's the main complaint we hear about from women is my, all my husband's underwear have holes in them. And they're just there. He's had them since college. They're like, it's like a waistband with just a loin cloth attached to it. Basically like the fabric's so stretched out, it's lost all its elasticity. So get some new underwear. Doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be silky. You don't have to find any man thongs or anything like that. But uh, some fresh underwear would be great.

• 2:04:04Shawn Ryan?

  Easy, easy. And how can men get their woman to want more sex?

• 2:04:12Speaker 03

  Such a good question. So, okay, first thing is show interest in her. You know, we talked about that earlier. Like women really want to feel that, that connection. Um, they want to feel like you care about us and, and help us recognize that you're not just looking for sex for the pure physical release. It's because of us. You want to connect with us. And actually I was kind of thinking about this earlier. You know, with your experience, uh, we talked so much about emotional intimacy and how that can feel really complicated for a lot of men. And like, what does that mean? And how do I like show that interest? And I was thinking about your experience, um, you know, being an operative.

• 2:04:54Speaker 03

  Like I imagine you had to have a lot of conversations with people where you're, you're trying to connect with them quickly. And you're trying to show them that you care about them and trying to like gain their trust. So were there any, I don't know, were there any tricks that you learned about like, how do you make a connection with somebody quickly?

• 2:05:09Shawn Ryan?

  Compliments.

• 2:05:10Speaker 03

  Compliments. That was really the key. It's getting right in there. So what's the key to a good compliment?

• 2:05:21Shawn Ryan?

  Great question. I mean, I don't know. I think it could be anything. It just lets them know whoever you're complimenting that you're paying attention, that maybe you're leaving competitiveness out of it.

• 2:05:41Shawn Ryan?

  Spontaneous compliments, I think, are really good when they're least expected.

• 2:05:48Shawn Ryan?

  That's all I got.

• 2:05:49Speaker 03

  Okay. No, that's great. I think that's great. That's really helpful. So, yeah, a compliment is definitely a great way to make it, you know, make it personal. A lot of times, you know, a lot of men will just do like, "You look nice." Like, let's get a little bit more specific than that. Can you call it something like, "I love that, you know, the color of your shirt, the way that your, you know, your smile just lights up your whole face." Make it just a little bit more specific than "you look nice." That can be a great way to just, you know, ease into that connection. Touch her more often throughout the day. Another one of my favorite sayings is, "Foreplay all day." Foreplay all day. I like to think, right after you've had sex, that is when foreplay for the next time starts.

• 2:06:32Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:06:33Speaker 03

  So, again, women are really sensitive to feeling like you're just trying to get something from them. But if you spend, and again, it's, I'm not talking like, "All day, you're just following her around obsessed with her." But just those little things throughout the day. Send her a little text from thinking of you. You know, make sure you give her a kiss before you leave in the morning. Give her a compliment when you get back. Like, just planting those seeds throughout the day, keeping that thread of connection going between the two of you, so that it doesn't feel like at the end of the night, you're feeling like strangers to each other and there's this huge, like, chasm that you're trying to jump over to get to each other.

• 2:07:09Shawn Ryan?

  Okay. What are, what are some things that men do after sex that's preventing them from having more sex?

• 2:07:18Speaker 03

  Jumping right up and leaving, or getting on your phones.

• 2:07:23Speaker 03

  But yeah, we should talk more about phones because phones are really getting in the way of intimacy. But yeah, most of us just kind of roll over, grab your phone, and you're really missing this opportunity to linger in that connection that the two of you have just built together. And again, to show her, this is about connection for me. This is not just about I got off and so now I'm out of here. This is about me wanting to connect with you. This is also a great time to talk about sex and to get more comfortable talking about sex because you've just had it. You have an example, you know, right in front of you. You're feeling more open. It's not this random like, hey, let's talk about sex out of the blue now. So that can be a great time to like, give her a compliment about

• 2:08:04Speaker 03

  something she did that you really liked, or how sexy she looked in a certain position. It's a great time to bring up like, something that you want to try next time. So maybe you did, um, you know, she said a, she talked a little dirty to you and she used a little phrase and you told her, I'd love for you to do that next time. Or the way that you initiated was so sexy. Can you do that next time, too? So that can be a great opportunity to keep that connection going in that moment, too. But yeah, it's all about like, you've just built that connection with each other, being intimate. Now keep that going. And it doesn't have to be very long, like five minutes. Just spend five minutes in bed with each other. Keep holding her, caressing her, kissing her, talk to her. That'll really drive home the point for her that this is about connection.

• 2:08:47Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay. Makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense. All right, we're wrapping up the interview here, but we also had a, we brought up, you brought up, AI girlfriends.

• 2:08:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09:00Shawn Ryan?

  What is, I can imagine.

• 2:09:04Speaker 03

  Where do we even start?

• 2:09:05Shawn Ryan?

  But, I mean.

• 2:09:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:09:07Shawn Ryan?

  Seriously?

• 2:09:08Speaker 03

  So, we're starting to hear about the, I mean, we're still at the very beginning stages of this, but we're starting to hear about it. And I think it's going to become a very big problem over the next few years. The ways that we are turning to AI and connecting with AI. So, you know, as you know, like, the current AI models are built to be people pleasers, to tell us what we want to hear, to make us feel good about ourselves. And that is a really dangerous thing for relationships. Because the reality is, relationships are complicated. Human beings are messy. We are not, you know, our, our purpose in life is not just to perfectly please our partner in every single moment.

• 2:09:51Speaker 03

  And so there's an allure to an AI girlfriend who's telling you everything you want to hear, available to you whenever you want her, making you feel good about yourself. So we did a podcast episode recently about this Reddit thread with this story that I just cannot get out of my head. So this woman, she's married to her husband, and I think they had three kids together. And she said, you know, we have a good marriage. We have our ups and downs like everybody else, but I really thought we had a good marriage. Been married over a decade. And she'd been noticing that over the last few months, he had been starting to get a little bit more distant. But she thought, you know, maybe we're just kind

• 2:10:33Speaker 03

  of in one of those ebbs, one of those seasons of of life where things are, it's just not as connected. But he sat her down one day and he said, you know, I want to talk to you about something. I'd like for us to open up our relationship to a third person. And she said, who? What are you talking about? And he said, I have an AI girlfriend. And he was legitimately, she, you know, she said, I started laughing at first. I couldn't believe it. Like, what do you mean? And open up our relationship to a robot? What are you talking about? She started laughing and then she realized he was dead serious. He wanted to open up their relationship to incorporate his girlfriend. And he said, you know, the girlfriend and I, we've already talked about it. She helped me figure out

• 2:11:14Speaker 03

  how to have this conversation with you. She would like to be involved in the children's lives. She hopes that, you know, eventually all of us will be able to love each other. And this woman was just absolutely stunned. Like, what, what do I do? Where do I go from here? And he's, he's presenting this as an ultimatum. Like, this needs to happen, or I'm going to leave the relationship. I'm going to leave our kids.

• 2:11:37Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:11:37Speaker 03

  Because of his AI girlfriend.

• 2:11:39Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:11:40Speaker 03

  So again, that, you know, we're just at the cusp of this. It's not super common yet, but I'm really concerned that This is gonna happen more and more.

• 2:11:49Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what is it? Is it a, I mean, is it?

• 2:11:52Speaker 03

  It's a specific chatbot. Yeah, that he, that there, I mean, there are AI models that are specifically meant to be companions. You know, they call them companions where you can design it, you can, you know, what do you want its personality to be like? What do you want its, you know, avatar to look like? And it, you know, it'll act exactly as you want it to act. I mean, and it's like, who of us has not wanted to change something about our partner's behavior? Like, I wish they were more like this. I wish I could control exactly what my partner does. And now AI is offering us this opportunity.

• 2:12:24Shawn Ryan?

  Now, does that come from a lack of sex with your partner?

• 2:12:28Speaker 03

  That definitely could be a part of it. It could be, you know, a lack of emotional intimacy too. But what struck me about this story is the woman said, like, we have a pretty solid relationship. Yes, ebbs and flows, but it's pretty solid overall. So I think even, you know, even strong relationships might be at risk from something like this. So I think it's, and that's another reason why I just feel so passionate about the work that we're doing. It's really, I think AI is very cool. I mean, I'm not a, not against AI. I use it a lot in my day to day life, but I think it's really important for us to prioritize human connection. And you're never gonna be able to have sex with an AI. You're never gonna be able to, like, have skin to skin contact with an AI. I wanna protect relationships. I wanna protect families.

• 2:13:15Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I think if, if, if there's one thing that I think this all comes down to, it seems like communication is, is the key component here. Am I missing anything?

• 2:13:24Speaker 03

  It absolutely is. It absolutely is. I strongly believe that we can't have a great sex life or a great relationship without communication. But really, my goal is to help people not roll their eyes and like, I know I need to communicate. But I want to help them realize that it can be, it doesn't have to be as daunting as it might seem. It can actually be fun. That's really the goal here is to make it feel fun to talk about your sex life. Fun to talk about your relationship.

• 2:13:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's just communication, communication during sex, communication after sex, communication before sex, communication about sex. I mean, it's all, it's all about sending and receiving communications. So, I mean, any parting words?

• 2:14:07Speaker 03

  Well, I'm, yeah, I'm really glad that I've had the opportunity to be here today and speak with your audience. I really hope that, you know, we went over so many specific little tools and techniques, so I hope that people have found at least a couple that got their curiosity peaked. And I would encourage people to, you know, take a, take a couple of things and just get started. Try a couple of things out. But yeah, Xander and I are really here to lead you through it. We're so passionate about doing this work. And I think it's, you know, it's such a shame, because there are so many couples that are feeling really disconnected from each other right now, wondering what happened to us, when the reality is, with just a few practical

• 2:14:47Speaker 03

  tools and techniques, like you can find that spark again. You can recreate that connection again. So we are here to support in any way that we can with our book. We have a membership for couples called Deeper, for couples who don't want to settle. I know a lot of your audience is, these are people who don't want to settle. You want more out of life, and you're willing to, to make that effort, to get more out of life. So be more than happy to support people. But I just really appreciate you being willing to open this conversation and be vulnerable. Let me ask you a few questions.

• 2:15:18Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, man, I loved it. I loved it. I'd love to get you back again. But one last question.

• 2:15:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:15:26Shawn Ryan?

  If you could recommend one person for the show, who would it be?

• 2:15:30Speaker 03

  Ooh, one person for the show. Oh, my gosh, that is such a hard question. Can I have a minute?

• 2:15:39Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:40Speaker 03

  Okay. I'm very particular about my recommendations, too.

• 2:15:44Shawn Ryan?

  That's a good thing.

• 2:15:45Speaker 03

  Very important to me. Um, you know what? I'm gonna say, a friend of mine, Dr. Becky Kennedy, she's a parenting expert. And she just has really brilliant parenting wisdom. But I think a lot of what she teaches also helps us heal our relationships with ourselves.

• 2:16:06Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:16:07Speaker 03

  So I think, you know, going back to the top three reasons couples break up, sex, kids, money. If we can get the, you know, I'll handle the sex. Dr. Becky can help handle the kids, but I think she'd be a great guest.

• 2:16:20Shawn Ryan?

  Perfect.

• 2:16:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:21Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Doc, I really appreciate you coming. This was a fascinating conversation. Like I said, I'd love to see you again.

• 2:16:26Speaker 03

  Thank you so much for having me.

• 2:16:28Shawn Ryan?

  Cheers.