550: The Company Commander's Playbook for Leadership

>Join Jocko Underground Full Episodes< https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Using the Marine Corps Company Commander's Handbook as a guide, Jocko and Echo discuss what every leader should know before taking over a team: setting expectations, establishing a command philosophy, earning trust, leading through influence, and creating a culture where people thrive. Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/jocko-podcast/exclusive-content

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jocko Willink?

  This is Jocko Podcast number 550 with Echo Charles and me, Jocko Willink. Good evening, Echo.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Good evening.

• 0:05Jocko Willink?

  So that we know that leadership is the most challenging of endeavors. No doubt about that. And yet, you know what? It happens all day, every day. And if you think about every capacity, every industry, every different team, right? Large, small, whether they're accomplishing some simple low-risk task or completing the most complex, dangerous, high-risk tasks imaginable. All that is done through leadership, all of it. Now, the Marine Corps, the military at large, I'm going to talk about the Marine Corps for a second, does this all day, every day. And in the Marine Corps, it's in every capacity. Not every job in the Marine Corps is hazardous, life risk or high-risk scenario.

• 0:49Jocko Willink?

  Some of it is simple, you know, safe administrative tasks. They do have the other end of the spectrum, obviously, combat, dangerous

• 0:59Jocko Willink?

  tasks that they're doing, missions, and they get it done. And much of this happens at the company level in the Marine Corps and in the Army, led by a company commander. These are officers that have been in the Marine Corps for maybe eight to 10 years, something like that.

• 1:15Jocko Willink?

  And a company, generally speaking, is somewhere between 150 to 250 Marines, somewhere in there. Which is, when you think in the military, everything is the same. Do you think that as a non-military person? If I said, how many people are in a, are in a Marine Corps company? When you think, oh, it's always 172.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37Jocko Willink?

  I used to think that.

• 1:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39Jocko Willink?

  I used to think that.

• 1:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think.

• 1:40Jocko Willink?

  But the military, they make adjustments and they allow variables to dictate what they're going to do. So, but generally speaking, Marine Corps company is going to have between 150 to 250 Marines in it, and they do all kinds of different jobs. Obviously, you got your rifle company, you got your combat, right? Rifle company, weapons company, reconnaissance companies, light armored reconnaissance. You got combat assault companies. You got all kinds of things that their job is to close with and destroy the enemy. But then they also have headquarters company, which handles like the administrative stuff and the communications and the medical and logistical support for a battalion or for

• 2:22Jocko Willink?

  a regiment. You have combat engineer companies, which by the way, see a ton of combat.

• 2:30Jocko Willink?

  Maintenance or supply companies, communication companies, intelligence companies. There's all these different companies that have different tasks. But regardless of what the task is, it's all executed through leadership, obviously. And the Marine Corps learned a lot of lessons at that company level. And they passed some of these lessons on through the company commander handbook. And I was reviewing this the other day, reading through it. And I thought there's some lessons learned about leadership in here that are worth sharing. So this is, once again, the company, United States Marine Corps Company Commander's Handbook.

• 3:11Jocko Willink?

  And this thing, it was originally written in 1989, but there's been updates 2006 to up to 2010. And they say that this is a generic guide written for commanders or prospective commanders of company-level organizations. We designed it as a handy reference, which presents guidelines, advice, and time-tested lessons derived from years of experience in leading and commanding Marines. We did not design it to replace the need for an officer to study his profession or to supersede Marine Corps orders, directives, and manuals. And you can see, this is like a, it's kind of a bare bones, just putting out the word. Like, hey, this is a guidebook. Like, it's not the manual.

• 3:55Jocko Willink?

  It's a guidebook, little company commander handbook. And so this, this first part is talking to when you're preparing to go into command. And this is a big deal. This is a big deal in the Army and the Marine Corps, company command. It's, it's a huge leadership position. You know, this is, you get done with your platoon commander, and then you're going to have some kind of a, probably a disassociated tour at some point, there you come back and be company command. Above that's battalion. So this company command, these are the guys that are still, they're still in the mix, we'll say. And actually, a task unit in the SEAL teams is the equivalent of a company commander.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  The task unit commander?

• 4:41Jocko Willink?

  Yes, task unit commanders is an equivalent level, even though the task unit commanders are less people. And in, in a lot of ways, the company commander in the Army or the Marine Corps is much more responsibility because you have a lot more people and you're going to be running all kinds of stuff. It's a little, even, even a platoon in the SEAL teams is like 15 to 20, maybe 25 people. And in the Army or the Marine Corps, it's like 40, 40-plus people. So it's a bigger unit. The maneuver element, like the combat fighting element that you

• 5:22Jocko Willink?

  have, again, generally speaking, in a company of Marines, is like almost all of them. Whereas in a SEAL task unit, generally speaking, again, things change. It's, there's variables, but you have, your support element is included in that. So like in task unit bruiser, we had like 40 SEALs, but we had 100 people. So 60 of those people were CBs and intel people and radio people and communications people and computer people, like they were there.

• 5:51Speaker 01

  And they're all part of this task unit?

• 5:53Jocko Willink?

  Yes.

• 5:54Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 5:55Jocko Willink?

  The task unit has all those people with you. So you, technically, you're in charge of 100 people. But, and it could be more, it could be 150, it could be, depending on the situation. But only 40 of those guys are shooters.

• 6:10Speaker 01

  So the CBs, for example, that were attached.

• 6:14Jocko Willink?

  Yep, that's exactly right.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Attached to you guys, they're, they are technically in task unit bruiser?

• 6:19Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, technically, they're part of task unit bruiser. Yes, yes. They are technically part of task unit bruiser. But I would, you know, any one of them would immediately clarify, I was a support guy. So, but yeah, they were there in task unit bruiser. They were, they made it happen. I mean, we would have been incapacitated if we didn't have our CBs, our intel people, our communications people. All those people were great. And we had some really awesome people. I should get some of those. I should get support. I saw my radio man, who was like a young guy, and I don't want to say his name, but he was great. And I, he's a guy that I had, I put his like office right outside of the tactical operations

• 7:03Jocko Willink?

  center. And I was like, I, he's like, I said, you need to be here. Because when I yell your name, when I need something, I want you to be able to hear me. So I'd yell out his name. Let's say his name was, you know, Smith. I'd be like, Smith? And he would immediately be there. And great dude. But the last time I saw him was, he was, he's a master chief, like he retired as a master chief. So should get some of those guys on there, get their perspective on what it was like. So this first chapter is assuming command and it starts off with preparing for a command. And this is a good, interesting thing. Many officers say, many officers say, I would do anything to command a company. If you're one of those officers, do you really mean it?

• 7:45Jocko Willink?

  Are you suited for command? Have you really considered all that commanding a company entails? Try honestly to answer the following questions. Do you really want to command? Are you sure your motivation is more than simply having command experience entered on your record? Are you willing to dedicate yourself solely to your unit? Is your family willing to assume a role in helping you to create a happy Marine Corps community? Is your family willing, if necessary, to be secondary to the unit? You don't see that on paper very often. I know I've said it a thousand times. And I've heard, I hear, I hear people say it. Your family's going to come second.

• 8:21Jocko Willink?

  Often, not all the time, but often.

• 8:25Jocko Willink?

  Do you like to be with young people? Can you live with their energy, their points of view? They're probably, and it goes on this whole list. Are you and your family willing to live in a goldfish bowl, open to observation and criticism by both subordinates and superiors? Are you able to do many things at one time? Can you manage a complex job? Are you willing to take hard knocks that come from assuming responsibility for failures of your subordinates?

• 8:48Jocko Willink?

  Are you confident that you can produce a superior unit from average men?

• 8:54Jocko Willink?

  Can you inspire men to achieve outstanding results? You're gonna get, like, you're gonna get dudes. And there's gonna be a bell curve, some great, most of them are gonna be cool, and a couple losers, slugs. You're gonna have some studs and some duds and some in between. That's what you're gonna get. Can you turn that average group into an outstanding unit? Are you flexible when dealing with changing situations? Are you willing to risk new ideas? Are you willing to take reasonable risks to allow your subordinates to grow and to become more productive? Decentralized command has risk, a lot of it sometimes. Are you willing to let your subordinates be creative? Are you accessible to your troops? Does your manner invite communication?

• 9:38Jocko Willink?

  Mine doesn't always, that's for damn sure.

• 9:40Speaker 01

  That's for sure.

• 9:42Jocko Willink?

  Do you really listen? Can you withhold judgment until all the facts are? So this is just an opening salvo to get you to think through these things. And these are somewhat rhetorical questions. I don't think anyone's gonna fill this out and be like, well, actually, I don't think I really want command. You know, they should put together a list like this before trying to go to BUDs. Even though some, I think everyone would just be like, oh, no. Serve something bigger than my, all those questions, people would figure out how to answer them.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like, too, like how you said, it's a rhetorical question. So it might go over some people's head, I think. You know, it's kind of like, oh, yeah, I'll fill this out. Easy. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And then when it comes time, you know, you kind of forget it, whatever.

• 10:23Jocko Willink?

  Well, they kind of got you covered here. Because the next thing it says is, if you are honest with yourself, you will probably answer no to some of these questions.

• 10:31Jocko Willink?

  Only if you are completely honest in answering these questions will you gain real insight into what lies ahead. So, uh, ask yourself some questions. You know, that's a really good thing to do. When you have a goal, is ask yourself, like, all these types of questions about what that goal is. And figure out what the real deal is. What is it you really want?

• 10:52Jocko Willink?

  I've worked with companies and companies are trying to grow, right? Trying to scale. And when you start asking them why they're trying to scale, all of a sudden, they realize they don't actually want to scale. What they want to do is maybe make a better product or have the opportunity to get higher income. And the only way they can think of a way to get higher income is to just scale. They want to grow, they want to grow, they want to grow. And with growth comes problems. It's not, problems don't become less when you grow, they become more. And, you know, they want more freedom, so they're gonna grow their company. Okay, well, hold on a second, just make sure. And it looks, obviously, sometimes the answer is to grow. Oftentimes, that is the answer, but not always.

• 11:34Jocko Willink?

  This is before assuming command, and I'm not reading this whole manual, but determine what your company's missions are and analyze them, obviously. Study the FM's, the field manuals, on how your company's supposed to operate. This is, you ever heard me say, hey, there's, there are stupid questions? There are stupid questions. If you're taking over a role and you haven't done the basic background for what that role requires, and you ask questions that are real obvious, you're stupid, that's a stupid question, you shouldn't do it.

• 12:06Jocko Willink?

  Obtain copies of your unit's SOPs, be familiar with them. So you don't want to show up, hey, how do you guys do this? It's already SOP. You had that manual for three weeks. You didn't even look at it, you don't care.

• 12:18Jocko Willink?

  Get in good physical condition.

• 12:22Jocko Willink?

  Hell, yeah.

• 12:24Jocko Willink?

  You cannot do your best unless you are an excellent mental and physical health. Brush up on the MOS and leadership skills you need to do your job. Your new Marines will see you as being out of touch if you cannot converse with them at their level of knowledge. Again, this is stupid questions. What kind of gun is that?

• 12:42Jocko Willink?

  Get a feel for the environment by visiting higher headquarters, staff officers who help support your company. Makes sense. Hey, give me some feedback on this company. What do they do well, what do they do poorly? Establish a good relationship with your fellow commanders, obviously. Find out how they operate, gain from their experience. Ask for ideas from the battalion sergeant major, right? You got your senior enlisted guy, he knows what the deal is. He's gonna give you some really good insight.

• 13:13Jocko Willink?

  Maintain, when discussing the status, you're gonna be positive and maintain an open mind. What others say may or may not be correct, that's an important one. I was very, I would say I was pretty solid at trying to take information, gossip, as data points and not becoming too, too skewed or biased on something that I heard. You know, I hear something about a guy, that guy's a piece of shit, like, okay, well, first of all, who's the source? Second of all, how, you know, that was three years ago, you know? I work with that guy back in such and such. You're like, bro, you don't think that guy's matured at all in the past nine years? Take it easy.

• 13:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, when you said data points for the first time or whatever, oh, it's a data point. And you said it to me too, off air, we were talking about something else here, like, oh, that's a data point. And it's like, that, that was such a good way to, like, clarify and kind of illustrate that concept of not going, you know, you hear, let's say you hear one thing that's like kind of bad about somebody. And then, because I think, I believe that it's natural for your mind to just be like, oh, well, he's a piece of shit. Because of, you know, that one thing. It's like, no, no, not necessarily, you know? In fact, I was talking to, I was talking to my friend, and we were talking about somebody where

• 14:32Speaker 01

  this is, it's something came up, huge, yeah, it's a public thing, so whatever. And, you know, he had run into a scenario, this guy, not my friend, we're talking about this guy who ran into a scenario. And he's like, yeah, you know, and he's explaining all what this guy is known for, and he's like, it's all bullshit. It's all bullshit. And I was like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it's all, it's all BS.

• 14:55Jocko Willink?

  It's data.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's all data, yeah, it's exactly right, because one thing doesn't necessarily have to do with the other. See what I'm saying? Anyway, but, you know, without going too deep in the details. It's true, but that's the trap you can fall into. You hear one thing and think that data applies to everything. Doesn't necessarily.

• 15:12Jocko Willink?

  Well, yeah, once you get into the, like, the news media. I mean, you have to accept everything as just data points from, you know, spin that's been put on with the whole nine yards, you know? But keep that in mind when you're learning about people. Like, people have all kinds of opinions about other people. And just, just remember, that that's not the perfect picture.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Brother, there's this, there's this show called Forensic Files, I know, I brought it up before.

• 15:40Jocko Willink?

  There's a what, a show called?

• 15:41Speaker 01

  A show, Forensic Files.

• 15:42Jocko Willink?

  Is it a, is it a documentary? So it's real life?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, real life, real crimes that have been committed, you know? And they get to the bottom of how they solve these crimes, right? So when they, every once in a while, you know, they'll, they'll show the suspect, right? And they'll be like, suspect John Smith is an unemployed electrician, like, he includes unemployed. You know, I think just for the drama, but every time he says that, I kind of think to myself, Brian, you didn't have to say that. You didn't have to say unemployed, you know? But I mean, maybe he did, I don't know, but it seemed like you were saying it for you to paint your own picture of this person. See what I'm saying? What if he was just unemployed just for a little bit? See what I'm saying?

• 16:22Jocko Willink?

  I agree. And then it talks about, you know, get to know your, the managers of the base facilities. Check out the training, it's all good stuff, observe your junior officers and your non-commissioned officers. And then it says, take time to sit down and write out your philosophy of command. Include those things you plan to do to establish the type of climate you want in your unit. To begin, begin to formulate your goals, milestones, recognizing that you may have to alter them as your appreciation of the situation increases. And then determine what you will say when you first meet with your platoon commanders, executive officer, first sergeant, staff, non-commissioned officers, and NCOs. And then it gets into this, this philosophy of command. And I think when I was reading this, I was like, oh, we should probably do this on the podcast.

• 17:04Jocko Willink?

  Successful commanders are those with a well-developed philosophy of command and a clear vision of what they want their companies to be. As a result, they focus their energies and the energy of the company to make things happen. This may sound easy, but consider what happens when a new commander fails to communicate his philosophy of command to establish a future vision or to think through a system to measure progress toward that vision.

• 17:28Jocko Willink?

  So what do you end up with? You end up with indecision by subordinates, they feel, as they feel out, as they feel out the new commander. Constant initiation or revision of policy as the commander's intent is discovered. Reduction of energy and focus as subordinates try to follow their commanders, changing directions of march. Inappropriate use of people's, people and resources as priorities change, and delays in building subordinates' trust and confidence. So that's, that's what happens when you don't have this philosophy of command. Now, I will, I never did this. And it wasn't, when, when I was in Task Unit Bruiser and I got done with the job and Seth Stone took over the job, and I came down to his office, which was my old office, like, three days later,

• 18:11Jocko Willink?

  and he had, like, the full philosophy of command up on his board. And I was like, oh, nicely done, Seth Stone. I think that my philosophy of command was so inherent in my, in my reputation, that like, it was just kind of already there, you know what I mean? But for him, it was like a good move. Like, hey, this is what we're doing. Especially because Seth, probably, I would say, was leaning towards being too, you know, being too friendly with the boys, you know? So I think that helped him, like, okay, this is, I need to get this down on paper for you guys and for me, too.

• 18:56Jocko Willink?

  But that was a step up, you know, I was like, oh, okay, he's, he's, he's gonna hammer this out.

• 19:03Jocko Willink?

  And then it says, here's some key ingredients before you assume command in your philosophy. These are my values. This is how I plan to exercise command. These are my goals and objectives that are important to me. This is how I evaluate. This is how I will reward and punish. Like, imagine if you just put that out day one. You're doing so good. Hey, here's what's important to me. Cause a lot of times you take over and people are kind of like, oh, wait, wait, what's important to this guy? Like, oh, is he, you know, they're, oh, wait. Uh, well, how does he get, he's, oh, he's decentralized command. Oh, he's going to micromanage me at first and he's trying to figure, make sure I know how to do my job. And he's going to let me, like, like those kinds of things. Ask yourself these questions as you take command. How do I want this company to look two years from now?

• 19:48Jocko Willink?

  How do I make that happen? How do I measure progress toward that vision? How will I know that my subordinates understand my vision and my methods of getting there? What are my priorities for the short term, for the long term? What is important for me on a daily basis? Good stuff. So again, anytime you write down stuff, you become detached from it, but you also are setting a goal and setting a standard that you can now aim towards, which is important. Talks about meeting with your predecessor. And again, you know, we're talking about Marines, but this is anybody that's going to take over some job somewhere. And, you know, you're meeting with the guy that had it.

• 20:27Jocko Willink?

  It goes, and if you're relieving a commander who's simply moving on to a new job, it's a good idea for you to have a conference with him, get into his views and strengths and weaknesses and organization and key people. Cool. If you're leaving someone who's being removed because of poor performance, a conference with your future boss is in order. Discuss some problems that have arisen. And this is, I did that. I did that one time. You know, I took over for a platoon where the platoon commander was getting fired. I've also taken over for situations like when I took over tasking commander was a good, good, good to go task. You know, it's just the guy was done with his job. Uh, trade, I took over trade, you know, like you, normally you're going into someone that's doing fine. If you're going into something where things have been askew, you know, you definitely want to meet with

• 21:12Jocko Willink?

  the guy's boss for sure. So you figure out what the problem is. And then you, you know, generally speaking, got to identify that problem really quickly and get things moving in the right direction. In that particular case, and I think in most cases, if the boss is getting relieved, I would,

• 21:31Jocko Willink?

  I would treat it out of the gate as if the boss is the problem and the boys are ready to move in the right direction. You know, that it's not a cancer and everyone's pissed off. Even when I took over, when I took over, when the platoon commander got fired,

• 21:47Jocko Willink?

  not all the guys wanted the guy to get fired. Some of the guys liked him. So some of the guys were like, no, he's good to go. And some of the guys were like, yeah, he sucked. And generally speaking, the, I would say the, there was probably, he probably had five guys that were kind of on his side. And they weren't bad guys, but they were just kind of like, oh, you know, they had a good relationship with them. I did, and then probably five of them were pretty neutral. Like, well, yeah, he probably could have done better, but you know, I don't need to fire the guy. And then five of them were like, dude, this guy had to go. So it was a little bit of a mix. It wasn't like when my platoon commander got fired, when we had a mutiny on him. Then it was like rapid, rabid hatred across the troops. Which we were all just freaking assholes, just hated it, right?

• 22:34Jocko Willink?

  So you could get anything, but my, but taking over that platoon, my assumption was like, oh, the guys are all screwed up. In fact, I thought, you know, the guys were probably squared away. Well, what I thought was there's a bell curve. There's going to be some good guys, there's going to be some bad guys.

• 22:47Jocko Willink?

  Do you go in there and immediately cause there to be a rift between the guys that were lovers and the guys that were haters? Like, that's not a good move. Like, hey, guys, I'm not worried about that. I kind of did what Delta Charlie did. Hey, look, I'm not worried about the guy that got fired. Looking forward to working with you guys, obviously. You know, take another page out of, out of Delta Charlie's book. Just take it out, you apply it.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, that actually happened to us too in football. Our coach, the whole coaching staff got fired. And some guys.

• 23:14Jocko Willink?

  What part of the season?

• 23:16Speaker 01

  Uh, after the season. Yeah, yeah, it's like in the transition.

• 23:19Jocko Willink?

  And there was lovers and haters.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  Yep, exactly right. Some guys, in fact, some of the guys were like, hey, we want, they like rallied and like went to, I think, the athletic director. To no avail, like.

• 23:29Jocko Willink?

  What side were you on?

• 23:30Speaker 01

  That's classified.

• 23:32Jocko Willink?

  Okay.

• 23:33Speaker 01

  But, um, nonetheless, there, there was, there was a spectrum. To be honest, I was neutral. There were not, you know, I was kind of all over the place because some of those coaches, I, I was like happy with, like I had.

• 23:45Jocko Willink?

  Why did they all get fired?

• 23:47Speaker 01

  They're pretty, um, straightforward with, with that. They give you a chance and then if you don't have like a winning season after, you know, however long, it's like they, they, they, they replace the coaching staff, you see what I'm saying? And maybe a new philosophy or whatever, but yeah, I liked, I liked some coaches and some coaches I didn't like as much, whatever.

• 24:06Jocko Willink?

  Chuck, uh, one more note on this meeting with your predecessor. One of the things says, I'm not reading all of them. Attempt to learn the long range goals and objectives of your predecessor. It is often difficult to alter the momentum or direction set by the commander and you may not want to. I'm going to tell you, it's going to be a hell of a lot easier. Whatever you can, whatever you can kind of, uh, uh, resurface and continue with that they were maintained is going to be good. You know, unless it's some loser move, but you don't, obviously you don't take the loser things. You take something that seems positive, keep going.

• 24:39Jocko Willink?

  And then we get into the taking command part. Uh, fast forward a little bit.

• 24:45Jocko Willink?

  It says, um, avoid referring to your past specifically your credentials, which you feel qualify you for command. This is something we were just talking about this, uh, before we hit record today is when people kind of lead with their credentials, it's, it's, it's a red flag. I'll be straight up, it's a straight up red flag. When someone explains to you, hey, I went to this school and I graduated with this degree and I got this qualification and I did this and that. Nice to meet you. It's a red flag. Because there's something wrong with them. Like, like I'm going deeper than just like a leadership red flag. Like those people are weird, right? Those people, those people, they, they're insecure, right? They're, they're trying to prove themselves out of the gate. They feel insecure. They got to tell you what they've done in the past.

• 25:31Jocko Willink?

  When someone's just like, hey, good to meet you. I'm Fred. It's like, oh, cool. When, when someone's like, hey, I'm Fred. I went to Harvard. I graduated this, I was a football captain, I'm an Eagle Scout. And, you know, I've been, I did three combat deployments. You're like, okay, dude, great. You know what I mean? You just, you're like, I'm doomed. Like this is going to suck. When someone's like, hey, I'm Fred. And you find out later that they went to Harvard, you find out later that they had three combat deployments. You find out later that, that, you know, all that stuff, when you find it out later, you're like, oh, sweet. But when they front load your ass with that stuff. It's like, bro, this is going to suck.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like there's some things, and actually, what do you think about this? Where there's some occupations that maybe just part of the tradition or the culture, they say, like the title, you know, how like some doctors will do that or like, um.

• 26:19Jocko Willink?

  I mean, yeah, obviously there's some of that. It's like just the formality of the situation. But, but there's a huge difference.

• 26:25Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, yeah. That's what I was wondering about your personal opinion where it's like, are you, how should I say, do you notice that too?

• 26:32Jocko Willink?

  I do, but I also notice when someone, when I'm talking to someone for like 20 minutes and they're like, well, actually I am a doctor. You know, as opposed to like, I mean, I haven't, I don't know if the last time I had a, a person like introduce themselves as like doctor such and such.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:47Jocko Willink?

  I don't know. Maybe that's been a while. But it's a red flag in my opinion. If you have to lead with that stuff, it's a red flag. If you're a person that wants to lead with that, you feel like compelled to do that, don't do it. I'm telling you, it's so much better to not do it.

• 27:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:01Jocko Willink?

  And everyone will find out eventually that you went to Harvard and that you're an Eagle Scout and that you got, everyone's going to find it out eventually. Yeah, don't, don't, don't front load people with that. It's painful.

• 27:10Speaker 01

  You're right, there's a big, huge difference between like just the title, like the formal, like title, right? You know, like some people, they have a formal title, you know, like even judge, you know, like some judges where, and then it's contextual as well. Like you're in some kind of formal, like setting or something that leans more formal.

• 27:25Jocko Willink?

  Sometimes people kind of like, like, uh, like the other people. You know, like I'll have people address me as like Commander Willink. And first of all, I wasn't a commander, I was a lieutenant commander. Now, people all the, all the time, even in the military will be like, it, it's, it's like calling a lieutenant Colonel, Colonel. Like sometimes you're just like, hey, the Colonel said this, a lieutenant commander, you know, it's not, it's not a, a violation. When someone's like, hey, Commander Willink, like I would respond to that all the time while I was in, if somebody called me that.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  What's the difference?

• 27:59Jocko Willink?

  One pay grade.

• 28:01Speaker 01

  Okay, so lieutenant commander is right before commander?

• 28:04Jocko Willink?

  One is one before commander. But it's not like some big violation, like stolen valor, like, oh, they called, your choco's trying to be a commander. As a matter of fact, when I was going on deployment with Task Unit Bruiser, I was a lieutenant, which is a O three. And they're like, hey, they're like, just put, you can just, we're, we're spot promoting you. But it's sort of like, it's not official. And I was like, hey, hold on a second. I'm not going to go interact with Marine Corps and Army officers and, and be lying. That's bullshit. And so they gave me like an official, they officially promoted me to that rank. So I could be, so I would be equivalent. Otherwise it's like, bro, I'll just be a lieutenant.

• 28:49Jocko Willink?

  I'll, it doesn't matter. I'm not going to go and like walk around because it's a big deal in the Army and the Marine Corps. That's why, that's why the SEAL teams are just like, oh, you just, you know, just put it on, it's no big deal. I'm like, no, no, no, it is a big deal in the Army and the Marine Corps. Like, that's a big deal. I'm not going to go and lie, like meet a brigade commander and have him find out somehow at some point, be like, oh, wait a second, you're not even a, a freaking lieutenant commander, you're not an O four, you're lying? That's horrible. So they gave me a legit promotion so I could do it. Because I was, you know, not going to be over there freaking lying to people. So, uh.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Is that kind of like the belts in jujitsu where you can't just roll up?

• 29:29Jocko Willink?

  You can't give them, yeah, you can't, yeah, exactly. It'd be like if you were going to a school and I was like, hey, just, you know, just wear a black belt. You'd be like, bruh. You'd be like, no, no, no, just wear it. Like, no, no, no, it's not a big deal to whoever this karate guy is over here, but like in the jujitsu world, you just don't throw a black belt on. Shit ain't happening.

• 29:51Jocko Willink?

  Okay, so important early impressions. The way you come across to Marines initially will provide long lasting impressions. Some tips are, set the example in personal appearance and behavior. Mm hmm. Yep. Look sharp. Now, listen, don't, don't get crazy.

• 30:12Jocko Willink?

  My goal in appearance is to, nothing on me will cause you to think about my appearance.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:21Jocko Willink?

  Right?

• 30:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 30:23Jocko Willink?

  I don't, and that's in this, look, in, in the military, there's a little bit of like, hey, you wanna, you want them to look, you can go, oh, he's squared away.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 30:30Jocko Willink?

  Not just he's standing, you want a little bit more, a little bit like, oh, he's squared away. The only thing I'm showing you is that I'm squared away. I'm not trying to get you to look at me more. In the civilian sector, there's a lot of, hey, I want you to just look at me and notice me because of my pants or my shoes or my whatever. It's like, no, no, no, no. Set the example, be squared away.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it feels like, I think you might even put it into these words long term, where you, you wanna look as good as you can without being distracting about it.

• 30:56Jocko Willink?

  Yes, yes.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  And so like, yeah, that makes sense.

• 30:58Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, and it's, so with a uniform, like you just want that uniform to be super squared away.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:04Jocko Willink?

  Personal appearance and behavior. Next one, be honest, be yourself. Yep. Otherwise, they're gonna see through it. Avoid the my unit syndrome. You have been getting, given stewardship, not ownership, and an opportunity to serve those above and below you better. That's a big red flag, too. Now, it's, there is a little bit of a, there's a little bit of a, of a, of a dichotomy here, not a dichotomy. There's a little bit of a different take, because sometimes you'll hear a Marine or a soldier, and they're, they're, they're saying like, we don't do that in my platoon, you know what I mean? And they, they mean it in a good way. It's a good way of saying it.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:41Jocko Willink?

  But to be like, alright, gents, now that, now that, now that I'm the commander of my platoon, like, that's what we gotta watch out for.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:47Jocko Willink?

  There's a different time, there's like owner, there's like a positive ownership piece, like, that shit ain't happening in my platoon. Like, we get that.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Jocko Willink?

  But in, in like, hey, we will be successful in my platoon. Oh, red flag.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:01Jocko Willink?

  So make sure you don't, that's a very thin line.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:04Jocko Willink?

  Gotta watch out for that one.

• 32:05Speaker 01

  There's that going, and I noticed that a long time ago, I started noticing this, where you're right, it's almost like a vibe, it's an intangible vibe where, okay, so, and this applies even outside of the military, so, so there was a, I went to a bar, I was young, I don't know, 21, 22, whatever. Went to a bar and I was like, hey, do you have, um, it was a certain kind of tequila. And I was like, you have this kind of tequila? And he was like, you know, I got, you know, I got this and I got that, I got this and I got that. And he said, he kept saying, my, whatever, he wasn't the owner. He just worked there, you know? But it seemed like he was kind of projecting like, I'm the master of this domain, you know, like this is my, this or my, or if it's, or if somebody's.

• 32:48Jocko Willink?

  Didn't like it.

• 32:49Speaker 01

  I did, it was kind of off, I was like, yeah, it was too much.

• 32:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, but I've also had like, let's say a waiter, be like, oh, I got a really good steak for you tonight. And you're kind of fired up for it.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Exactly, right, and it depends on the vibe too, though. So even a waiter could do it with the vibe of like, this is my, you know, like, it's just the vibe. See what I'm saying? It could go either way. So man, I dig it, man.

• 33:12Jocko Willink?

  Gotta be careful. Uh, take time, talk, to talk informally to the company executives, talk to people, first sergeant, platoon commanders. Meet with platoon commanders on their turf, let them do the talking. Boy, do we all have a problem with that. We wanna get in there and yap, yap, yap, yap, yap. Let them talk. Take the time to talk to the Marines. If they sense that you have a genuine interest in their well-being, you'll find out what's on their minds. Talk with your Marines, not down to them.

• 33:42Jocko Willink?

  Obviously. Remember to exercise your listening skills more than your speaking skills. Your Marines want to tell you their concerns, problems, and accomplishments. This will be hard if you constantly dominate the conversation, their one-on-one opportunities with their commanders are rare. Learn to listen.

• 34:00Jocko Willink?

  Isn't that interesting? The most underrated skill of leadership, listening. The most underrated skill of communication, listening. The most underrated skill of decision-making, listening. Listen, listen, and listen. The most underrated way to earn respect, listen. The most underrated, underrated way to get people to listen to you, listen.

• 34:24Jocko Willink?

  The most underrated way to deal with someone that's frustrated, listen. The most underrated way to deal with someone that's angry, listen. The most underrated way to deal with someone that's sad, listen.

• 34:38Jocko Willink?

  Listen.

• 34:40Jocko Willink?

  Remember that you are not the only one in the unit who wants to succeed. Remember that a good sense of humor and consistency will make it easier for people to approach you.

• 34:49Jocko Willink?

  So, it all, just great points.

• 34:55Jocko Willink?

  Getting out to know your Marines, or sorry, getting to know your Marines, Marines, and it just, out of the gates, like, get out of your office whenever possible. You know, let your XO, your executive officer, let him run the day-to-day stuff. You lead and command, you can't lead from behind your desk. Marines, this is a great line. Marines are not in the unit, they are the unit. They wanna get you, to know you just as much as you wanna get to know them, they will appreciate your efforts in breaking the ice. But it's really important to remember that, no matter what you do, those guys are the unit. You have a company, the people in your company, you're the CEO of the company, you're a branch manager at your branch. Those guys are the branch. Those guys are the company.

• 35:40Jocko Willink?

  And yes, you can influence them to behave a certain way, but it's them.

• 35:48Jocko Willink?

  Seek their opinions, listen what they have to say. Reiterate, be careful not to talk down to them. That must be an issue that they run into from time to time. You know, you get done with the Naval Academy, you go to, you go to the basic school, you've been, you know, you're in the elevated position. You've been told the importance of your role. It's kind of messed up, right? Cause you're in a leadership position, everyone's gonna tell you, hey, this is the most important position, you're in a leadership position, you're taking care of these guys, they're your responsibility. You're gonna get elevated head, you're gonna get an elevated ego from that. So you gotta be careful. Remember to tell them how much they are helping you to learn about your job.

• 36:28Jocko Willink?

  Always important. Participate in, in the events that they're doing, athletic events. Visit Marines or family members who are in the hospital. Make unannounced visits to the BEQ.

• 36:41Speaker 01

  What's BEQ?

• 36:43Jocko Willink?

  The Bachelors Enlisted Corps, this is where the young, single Marines live.

• 36:50Jocko Willink?

  Dude, Zach Bell, veteran with a sign.

• 36:54Jocko Willink?

  His, when he was on the podcast and he's talking about when he showed up to his unit, and they had just, his unit had just gotten back from Ramadi. Bro, that was like classic, classic BEQ scenario. Like, you are checking in, you're living with your fire team, you know what I'm saying? You got your fire team leader is like in your room with you. He's, he's like in the, you're in the top bunk, he's in the bottom bunk. This is, this is Marine Corps activity right there. So this is make unannounced visits to the BEQ. You better be careful, give them a little bit of ads up, might be alright. Talk to Marines in the area. Spend some time talking with the sometimes forgotten few, the cooks, the corpsmen, mechanics, let them know how important they are to the unit.

• 37:40Jocko Willink?

  Addressing your Marines, Marines want to hear as well as see their commander. Take the first step in establishing good communications up and down the chain of command. Talk to troops as soon as possible after the change of command. Share the standards, goals, and philosophy of your command. This is, you know, if you're doing this right, you can come out of the, come out of the gate with so much good information and off on the right foot. Talk to the entire unit at one time if you can, and then address officers and NCOs separately. If your mission precludes this, then do it by platoons. And really, I think,

• 38:13Jocko Willink?

  flipping that so that you kind of get, you have some good conversations with the officers and NCOs, so that everyone's kind of on the same page, cause you might, you might miss something, and you jump in and you're like, hey, we're gonna be the, we're gonna be the hardest working guys here. And you've kind of missed the fact that these guys have been, whatever, on deployment, working hard, working extra hours, you know, whatever the case may be. And guys are like, bro. And so your, your senior leadership will be able to tell you that. So just don't jump in with what you think is right, cause it might not be right. It might not be right at that moment for the morale of the troops.

• 38:54Jocko Willink?

  Beware of heavy-handed my policies tone. Right? Makes sense. This is how we do it, this is how I do it. New sheriff in town. Don't criticize your predecessor or his policies. Brilliant. You're gonna make changes, don't worry about it, you're gonna call anybody out. Beware of making promises that you cannot deliver. Outstanding. Take some action on the feedback you get, solicit it or volunteer. Not to do so will injure your credibility. Don't let your Marines think that you want to hear what they have to say, but never do anything about it. So yeah, when you take over, you gotta set that reputation real quick. Oh, this is a problem? Cool, let's get it fixed.

• 39:37Jocko Willink?

  All good information for when you step into that role for the first time, it's good. Um, now he's talking about, and I'm skipping through, he talks about like, how you're interacting with the first sergeant, which is a unique thing in the military, where you have like a platoon chief and a platoon officer. In the, in the Marine Corps and the Army, you have a platoon sergeant, you got a company first sergeant, but you have a company commander. So you've got a unique relationship that you have to build and, and it talks about that, especially the idea of just roles and responsibilities. Like, hey, this is what I need from you. What do you need from me? Make sure that you have that figured out.

• 40:20Jocko Willink?

  Then when he talks about the, the, kind of the platoon commanders and how we're going to develop relationships with the platoon commanders. Um, get to know them, learn their strengths and weaknesses, develop a close knit command team by establishing close working relationships based on mutual trust and confidence. Again, sometimes people think building a relationship is going out, you know, to have a beer, going out to lunch and that stuff. That's okay. It's fine. But you really build relationships with trust, listen, respect, influence and care. You give those things to people and they give them back to you. If, if it works. If I put trust in you and you break my trust, now we're moving in the other direction. If I listen to you, but you don't listen to me, well, we're gonna, we gotta get that sorted out. But we give these

• 41:04Jocko Willink?

  things in the beginning. Um, ensure that they swim and don't sink. Good point, right? We don't mind guys struggling a little bit, but we don't want to watch them fail, especially in front of their troops. Remember that you have the responsibility to teach them and pass on experiences for their future benefit. Tell them what to do, not how to do it. Simple decentralized command mode, right? I'm not telling you exactly how to do everything. I just tell you what we need to get done. Developing your platoon commanders is critically important. You cannot delegate this to anyone. Your company's performance, morale and command climate will depend on your platoon commander's performance. That's on you. That is a hundred percent on you. You are responsible for your direct subordinate's

• 41:48Jocko Willink?

  growth, right? You're responsible for their growth. Don't stifle their initiative.

• 41:57Jocko Willink?

  Allow them to make mistakes that will not damage their careers. Ensure they make, don't make the same mistakes twice. Very good advice. When you are using decentralized command and you're giving people the opportunity to grow, they're not going to be perfect. Do not stifle their initiative. Keep that in mind. Become the buffer between them and higher headquarters. Keep the heat off them and let them do their jobs all day. Cause listen, your commander's gonna suck. The next echelon of command always sucks. The next echelon of command is always terrible. That's what everybody says all the time. It's not going to be unique to you. Don't let your platoon commanders and your subordinate leadership feel that. Do your absolute best to buffer them. Ensure they know what is expected of them. Consistently let them know how they're

• 42:42Jocko Willink?

  doing. Give them a straight shot to talk to you about things important to them, both good and bad. So they should be able to come to you and say, hey, this is a problem I got, or this is what's going good. Don't overreact to their bad news.

• 42:56Jocko Willink?

  Killing messengers will keep them from telling you bad news in the future. Yeah, just don't overreact. How's that? Just be chill. Just listen to what people have to say.

• 43:06Jocko Willink?

  Include them in the decision-making process whenever possible. Avoid wasting their time with long-winded meetings which don't help them get their jobs done. However, there is great value in periodic commander's call sessions when the commander sit down with their commander.

• 43:22Jocko Willink?

  They appreciate the exclusiveness and personal attention associated with this type of meeting. Yeah, the amount of meetings that happen globally that don't help anyone get their job done is, is criminal and we need to do our best to put a stop to that.

• 43:35Jocko Willink?

  Beware of fostering competition between them at the expense of destroying cooperation and teamwork, clearly. And that's real easy to do, especially in the business world where I'm going to get paid more if I beat you in this thing. Oh, I'm going to get promoted if I be, oh, gotta work, gotta be careful.

• 43:54Jocko Willink?

  See each of your commanders at least daily on their turf, not yours.

• 43:59Jocko Willink?

  Train and teach them to be better commanders. Don't be concerned with which one is best. Make each one the best that he can be. Check.

• 44:09Jocko Willink?

  Talking about the sergeant major, get to know him. He has years of experience, obviously. Same thing with the battalion commander. You want to understand what he expects from you. You want to be clear on his standards and policies. You want to give him an, uh, an update on what's happening. Anything that's significant, let him know.

• 44:32Jocko Willink?

  Speak frankly to him about problems and issues that are bothering you. Yep. But, you know, don't complain about a bunch of stuff, you know? If you have a legit problem and you've tried to solve it and you need some guidance, legitimate guidance, cool. And here's what I'm proposing to do. Does this make sense? Am I doing the right thing? Don't just, don't just go in there and blabber your mouth complaining about stuff. That's not a good, not a good move.

• 44:58Jocko Willink?

  And then there's a little section in here on, um, checking facilities, which is just like, hey, you take over. It's like taking over a company and you gotta go and make sure that what you're taking over is squared away, right? So yeah, you want to go make sure that the freaking bathrooms work and you got the printers that you need or whatever the case may be.

• 45:19Jocko Willink?

  And then we get into chapter two. By the way, we're only covering two chapters. There's a whole bunch more. Um, leading the company.

• 45:29Jocko Willink?

  Leadership is an essential skill for an effective company commander. Our 29th Commandant, General A.M. Gray, who we did a podcast on, Grayisms, defines leadership as the art of getting things done through people. Leadership is a skill that can be learned through study, observation, and practical experience. It is the most essential element of combat power on the battlefield and therefore your most important concern in peacetime. Your goal is to demonstrate competent and confident leadership and to develop that same leadership in your subordinates. In the words of General Gray, it is going to take bold, innovative and aggressive leadership to overcome the complexities of the modern battlefield. Only this kind of leadership exercised by both

• 46:12Jocko Willink?

  the commander and his staff will provide purpose, direction, and motivation in combat. At all levels of command, leaders must be men of character. They must know how, they must know and understand their people and the physical tools of battle. They must act with courage and conviction. Their primary function is to inspire and motivate their people to do difficult things in trying circumstances. That's General Gray. One thing that, the warning here. You must demonstrate competent and confident leadership. Well, if you don't feel confident about something, don't try and fake it. Raise your hand and say,

• 46:53Jocko Willink?

  hey, I don't know how to do this. What does that take? What does it take for me to say, hey, Echo, I've never done this kind of mission before? Can you help me out? What does that take? It takes humility, yes. It also surprisingly, shockingly, takes confidence. Humility and confidence aren't like opposites. They're related. They're related.

• 47:17Jocko Willink?

  The opposite of, the opposite of competence is incompetence, right? Like, hey, I don't know how to do this. The opposite of competence isn't like, I'm gonna make, I'm gonna pretend that I know what I'm doing. So humility and confidence, even though

• 47:37Jocko Willink?

  they're not opposites.

• 47:40Jocko Willink?

  The opposite of confidence is not humility. It's not, even though it seems that way.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, that humility is kind of part of a greater confidence, right? Like, secureness.

• 47:50Jocko Willink?

  Yes. When someone's insecure, they never ask for help. I don't want to plead the gun. I don't want to admit that. No, when you're really confident, you're like, oh, hey, I've never done this before. You have to have the confidence. You have to be humble enough. You have to have the confidence to show humility. It's a very bizarre relationship.

• 48:08Jocko Willink?

  The Marine Officer's Guide defines leadership as, "Leadership is a heritage which has passed from Marine to Marine since the founding of the Corps. It has been defined as the art of influencing and directing men so as to obtain their obedience, respect, confidence, and loyal cooperation. Leadership is mainly acquired by observation, experience, and emulation. Although some individuals possess greater instinctive gifts of leadership than others, anyone can sharpen his leadership faculties if he tries." Now, what's interesting here is it says obedience, right? And that kind of like, triggers me a little bit, right? Because so often I talk about, you know, we want pushback. But,

• 48:53Jocko Willink?

  there is no doubt that if you are leading correctly, when needed, you will get, you will need, there will be times when you need obedience in any organization. Could be business. Like, hey, Echo, get this done right now. Like, that is, I don't need, I would say that you, once every eight years, Echo, do this right now. I would need obedience. By the way, it goes in both directions, too. Because there's the times where your subordinates are gonna go, "Boss, we need this right now, and I need to obey."

• 49:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, feels like it should be fueled by trust and not fricking fear.

• 49:34Jocko Willink?

  Oh, it should be fueled by trust, not authority, not rank.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:39Jocko Willink?

  Um,

• 49:41Jocko Willink?

  the, the, another primary goal of leadership is, the objective of Marine Corps leadership is to develop the leadership qualities of Marines to enable them to assume progressively greater responsibilities to the Corps and society. Bro, it's going societal at this point.

• 49:57Jocko Willink?

  In North China, 1937, Captain Samuel B. Griffith said, "Wars and battles are not lost by private soldiers. They win them, but they don't lose them. They are lost by commanders, staffs, and troop leaders, and they are often lost long before they start." So, responsibilities of leaders. Responsibility to leaders, this is an important thing. Number one, successful completion of the assigned mission. That's the number one thing you're responsible for. Sometimes, you know, at Echelon Front, we always have to make sure we go, get the job done. Mission accomplishment. Execute the task. That's part of leader, in fact, that's, that's what leadership is there for.

• 50:41Jocko Willink?

  "The fundamental responsibility of leaders is to successfully complete the mission. The mission of your unit is the only reason for the existence of the unit and its commanders. All other obligations are secondary. However, all leaders must be positive as to how this mission is accomplished. Marines and/or their careers must not needlessly be sacrificed for the sake of accomplishing the mission." I wasn't quite sure. I'm not sure how to read this. Marines and/or their careers. I understand Marines must not be needlessly sacrificed for the accomplishment of the mission. I get that. But how would we be sacrificing our career for a mission? And actually, I think the opposite is true. Sometimes, people are executing the mission for their careers. You see what I'm saying?

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:22Jocko Willink?

  Which is not a good move. Number two, responsibility to higher headquarters. While responsibility to accomplish the mission is paramount, inherent in the unit's mission, is a leader's responsibility to higher headquarters. There are two parts to this. Strict compliance and vigorous execution of all legal orders, directives, policies, regulations, and decisions received from higher headquarters. And two, inspiring confidence in higher headquarters. If a subordinate leader openly criticizes his superiors, he can expect the same from his Marines. Subordinate leaders should discuss those things that they disagree with in orders from higher headquarters with their superiors. However, if the decision still stands after the discussion, the subordinate must provide complete support. Now,

• 52:06Jocko Willink?

  I wrote about this in Leadership Training and Tactics. There are going to be times where I tell Echo to do something that's stupid. And Echo has the conversation with me, and he can't make any progress, and I'm like, "No, do this dumb thing." "No, do it. I told you to do it. I'm in charge. Go do it." Now, you don't turn around to your troops and say, "Hey, guys, this is what we're doing. Jocko came up with this plan, and we're gonna go execute it." And, and, and think that they're all gonna go, "Wait a second. This, they're not gonna see that it's stupid." Nope. And you already pushed back, you already say, "Hey, boss, I don't know if this is the right way. Hey, here's another course of action." Look, no, do it my way. You, you have to approach that with your troops in a delicate manner to not, to not give the impression that you didn't push back,

• 52:50Jocko Willink?

  that you think that this is the best way when it clearly isn't. It's like, "Hey, guys, I'm not 100% sure why the boss wants us doing it this way, but here's what we're gonna do. I obviously haven't learned, earned enough trust from him yet. What we're gonna do is we're gonna execute this to the best of our ability. We're gonna try and pull it off. If, at a worst-case scenario, it doesn't work, I'm at least gonna have feedback for him and explain to him what, what went wrong and what other elements we need to make this work. And best case, I'll be able to, we will get it done, and I'll be able to say, "Hey, sir, we got it done. Here's a couple of things that would have made it even smoother." And he's gonna trust me more, and he'll listen to me more. That kind of approach is pretty positive. You gotta be very careful, because even that, if you're not careful with that right there, everyone goes, "Oh, so this is a dumb plan." And they won't do it vigorously.

• 53:36Jocko Willink?

  So, this is definitely an area where we have to use caution. If you think that the troops don't see when something is stupid, you're wrong. They're gonna see it. So, be careful of that. Generally speaking, if I tell Echo to take his troops and do something stupid, and you go, "Hey, boss, I just want, let me make sure, is this what you want me to do? I'm gonna take casualties, we're not gonna be able to get it done, I'm gonna lose this manpower, whatever." And I go, "Oh, I didn't know all that. Hold on a second. Can you find a better way?" Yes, that's 99% of the time what happens. And by the way, when it doesn't happen, there's something else at play that I don't see. Or that you don't, that, that, that I don't see as a subordinate. Well, my boss is telling me to do something that makes no sense,

• 54:20Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna try and ask as many questions I can to try and figure it out. Usually, there's some strategic thing that I don't understand.

• 54:27Jocko Willink?

  Like, "Oh, they wanted us to take out this, they want us to take out this, uh, this observation post, this enemy observation post, it's in a very difficult spot, it's gonna be really challenging. Hey, boss, we don't have the manpower for this." "It's just a distraction. We're just putting you out there." "Okay, cool. Now I understand."

• 54:45Jocko Willink?

  So, just be careful of that. Um, obviously, responsible for training your troops, training, maintenance, administration, all that. Welfare of Marines. Leaders earn trust, confidence, and cooperation by looking after the needs of their Marines. Those needs includes, include satisfying the security, physical, and social needs of the individual. Primarily, the leader is responsible for ensuring that the Marine is trained satisfactorily and performs the job assigned competently. Marines also have personal problems of both a military and family nature. The leader must recognize these. He must make himself and the chain of command available to council Marines when they have these problems. Then, he must ensure that lead, unit leaders work with the Marines toward solving those problems.

• 55:30Jocko Willink?

  Welfare of Marines. Gotta take care of your people. Balance all of the leader's responsibilities, the responsibility to his remains, oh, sorry. Of all the leader's responsibilities, the responsibility to his remains is by far the most satisfying.

• 55:45Jocko Willink?

  As the leader, as the leader works with and trains his Marines, a strong sense of loyalty can develop. It better develop. This loyalty can conflict with the leader's responsibility to the mission. The commander cannot be overly protective of his Marines when directed to order them into combat or to make them work beyond their endurance. It is difficult for a good leader to suppress the feeling for his men at times when he must plan for their possible death. This is the opening chapter of the dichotomy of leadership. You care about these individuals more than anyone in the world, and you are literally sending them on missions where they may get killed.

• 56:25Jocko Willink?

  It is a very difficult thing to do.

• 56:30Jocko Willink?

  Here, it talks about the foundations of leadership. Number one, authority.

• 56:37Jocko Willink?

  Authority is the legitimate power of a leader to direct those subordinates to get him to act within the scope of his position. The commander delegates his power or part of it in his name by extending to his leaders regardless of their rank. Now, is that for real? It is a thing. I do have rank over you, and therefore, I can use my authority.

• 57:03Jocko Willink?

  And that can be the foundation of leadership. Is it really truly the foundation of leadership? No, it's not. It's not. The foundation of leadership is the respect, the trust, the listen, the influence, and the care. It's the relationships that you build. That's where the real leadership is. That's where the real leadership is, up, down, and across the chain of command.

• 57:24Jocko Willink?

  That's where it is. That's the true foundation. What do you do to earn the respect of your troops? Do you listen to them? Are you influenced by them? And when you have a good relationship, you will have the, the primal authority. Again, go back and listen to that judgment podcast that we did, literally the last podcast that we did. What, 549? We talked about this very thing. You have authority. But the, the real authority, the primal authority is a different scenario than just what's on paper and what's on your collar and your rank.

• 58:00Jocko Willink?

  There's something more powerful than that. And by the way, all the advice that they're giving in this is going to elevate your primal authority. But one thing that diminishes your primal authority is when you walk around thinking that your rank gives you authority. It doesn't. Gives you a little bit, little tiny bit. Don't rely on it too much. Responsibility. Responsibility is at all levels of command for what Marines do or fail, as well as the physical assets under the commander's control. Ultimately, all Marines are morally and legally responsible for their individual actions. Right? So this does give you, when I, when I am responsible for everything and I take ownership of everything,

• 58:41Jocko Willink?

  yes, that absolutely gives you a foundation of leadership. When everyone knows like, this is Jocko's ass right here.

• 58:48Jocko Willink?

  Accountability. Accountability is the reckoning wherein the leader answers for his actions and accepts the consequences, good or bad. Accountability is the very cornerstone of leadership. Yes. Accountability is the final act in establishing one's credibility. Yeah, you blame other people, you're not going to have credibility. Plainly speaking, the accountable leader is saying the buck stops here. Remember, accountability results in rewards for good performance as well as punishment for poor performance, obviously. Values. Values are the benchmark for leadership.

• 59:21Jocko Willink?

  We got, we got benchmark, we got, um, the cornerstone, benchmark,

• 59:28Jocko Willink?

  and foundation. Values are the benchmark for leadership. They are guides to our thinking and our behavior and that of our subordinates. If a Marine is left without any guidance or supervision, his personal values will determine what he will or will not do. Facts.

• 59:45Jocko Willink?

  And this is good, this is really important when it comes to kids.

• 59:49Jocko Willink?

  Getting, establishing good values with your kids so that where, when they're,

• 59:55Jocko Willink?

  you know, late night, peer pressure, illegal things happening, legal things happening, crazy things happening, decisions being made, you're not there. You are not there. And their values are going to make their decision for them.

• 1:00:14Jocko Willink?

  Leaders must provide guidance and supervision to inspire and control their Marines. As a leader, you have the power to influence the beliefs and values of your Marines by setting the example, by rewarding behavior that supports military values and attitudes, and by planning and conducting tough individual collective training.

• 1:00:33Jocko Willink?

  So I've got some interesting documents that I might be getting into on the podcast, but the, the changes that happen to people in boot camp, psychological changes. Cause you're, hopefully your psychological value system changes somewhat. Cause you're like a dirtbag bum going into boot camp and you come out squared away Marine. Or a squared away sailor, a squared away soldier. That's what, that's what can happen. Your values should be inculcated into you. So it gets into here, personal values. Can you identify your own values by examining your own behavior? Think through the following questions. What is important to me personally? What do I stand for? What activities do I spend my time on? What values do I admire in others?

• 1:01:18Jocko Willink?

  To who, to what or whom do I attribute those values? How do I impart values or beliefs on others? Again, go back and listen to the last podcast about judgment. Cause we start talking about, I forget what I called them in the, in the, in the podcast, universal, universally recognized values that are positive, right? Integrity, doing what you say, discipline, like all those things are universally recognized, by the way. So you should figure out where you are. Where are you at?

• 1:01:50Jocko Willink?

  And that kind of flows right into your unit values. Like what is your unit all about? And it says, the following values are critical to the development of effective Marine units. Integrity, trust, loyalty, justice, self-service, and courage. Again, these are all straight out of the list of people, we're all getting judged on these things. Do you respect when somebody doesn't do what they say they're gonna do? No. Do you respect somebody when they break their trust? They lie to you? No. When they stab you in the back and not loyal to you? No. When they do something, when they're picking on somebody that doesn't deserve it? No. When they do something that's selfish? No.

• 1:02:32Jocko Willink?

  When they are a coward? Of course. Like these are values, these are universally accepted and respected values.

• 1:02:40Jocko Willink?

  So you have to have them individually.

• 1:02:45Jocko Willink?

  Leadership traits. In trying to learn and to develop your leadership abilities and those of your Marines, spend some time studying the traits of great Marine leaders.

• 1:02:55Jocko Willink?

  Remember, the way you see yourself may not be the way your Marines actually see you. Again, go back and listen to the last podcast.

• 1:03:03Jocko Willink?

  As you study this self-evaluation checklist, that be honest with yourself, step back and see yourself as your Marines see you. How do you measure up as a leader? And it's got, it got some pretty good things to, to judge yourself on. Bearing.

• 1:03:21Jocko Willink?

  Set, setting and maintaining high standards in appearance and personal conduct. Do you do that?

• 1:03:26Jocko Willink?

  Avoid excessive use of profanity. Do you, profanity, do you do that? Controlling your temper, do you do that? Keeping your word, do you do that? So all these things are bearing, again, these can fall right into the judgment thing that we covered on the last podcast. Courage, taking risks in combat and in peace, acting calmly and firmly in stressful situations, standing up for what is right regardless of what others think, accepting personal responsibility for your orders and for your mistakes, making on the spot corrections of Marines who need correcting, allowing your subordinates to do their best jobs and make decisions.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  It mentioned temper there. And it kind of seems like in the military, this, I don't know if it's performative or what, but it kind of seems like, then again, I'm going off the movie.

• 1:04:17Jocko Willink?

  I was gonna say, this is your military assessment of military Hollywood shitty movies.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  You know, like losing their temper, you know, like, you know, did the guy, what was I watching? A Few Good Men. I was watching A Few Good Men the other day. And, you know, my man was losing his temper many times. It was kind of dope, to be honest with you.

• 1:04:34Jocko Willink?

  Hollywood, bro.

• 1:04:35Speaker 01

  Hollywood. When was the last time you lost your temper?

• 1:04:40Jocko Willink?

  Including printers and fax machines?

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Like actually lost your temper? Yeah, including.

• 1:04:47Jocko Willink?

  I did have a printer failure. Uh, I got a new printer, by the way. And I made it work by myself. Cause my wife was out of town, so I was like in charge of IT.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  Solid, solid.

• 1:04:59Jocko Willink?

  It's been a long time, man.

• 1:05:01Speaker 01

  Do you remember any instance that you've lost your temper, even way in the past or whatever?

• 1:05:09Jocko Willink?

  It's been a long, long, long time.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  I lost my temper the other day.

• 1:05:13Jocko Willink?

  What was it?

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  I only remember two times in my whole life that I lost my temper.

• 1:05:16Jocko Willink?

  What happened, bro?

• 1:05:19Speaker 01

  Well, this is, it's totally understandable. Uh, I was at the park. We were riding, me and my son, he's nine, riding our bikes. And it's a park where the dogs are allowed, but they gotta be on the leash. And some people, they take their dogs off a leash, which, you know, it's kind of one of those things where you take your dog off the leash, the thing mind its own business, or you have full control over your dog, no one's gonna like, trip, right? And it's not a super crowded park either. It's actually super mellow.

• 1:05:45Jocko Willink?

  This is kind of like, just, this is kind of a standard park in San Diego, California. They're all kind of like that. Like, you got a dog, cause I go to dog parks, you know, with my dogs. You got a dog, it's cool. Like, no one cares. It's off the leash, no, everything's all good. Um, clean up after the dog, for the love of God. But yeah, it's pretty chill. So you're in the standard kind of park. Is it a high-frequency dog park?

• 1:06:06Speaker 01

  Nope. It's like, uh, if you got five dogs there, that's a crowded day. And this is full, like, consider a whole football field size. It's huge. So we go there, we ride the bikes up there, we play football and stuff like that. And so we ride onto the park. And this German shepherd dude, by the way, starts chasing my son on the thing. And we don't know, like, with his mouth open. At this point, I'm like, we don't know if the dog's like, what he's doing, you know, it's straight up chasing him. And my son's nine, so he's scared. This freaking huge ass black, you know, the ones with the black face? They look extra scary.

• 1:06:46Jocko Willink?

  Hey, bro. A German shepherd chasing a nine year old kid is not is is a horrific situation.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:06:52Jocko Willink?

  That is like, there is a, there is a, I don't want to put a probability, a percentage chance on it. There is a not small chance that that this kid is about to get bit. Now, listen, would a person that has a crazy dog like that have it off the leash in the park? Most likely not, but do dogs are dogs, dogs are animals.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yep, correct. And I've never seen that guy before.

• 1:07:16Jocko Willink?

  Oh, then that's definitely.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  People there.

• 1:07:17Jocko Willink?

  Yep, sure.

• 1:07:18Speaker 01

  Um, I've never seen that doggy there.

• 1:07:21Jocko Willink?

  And it had a black face and freaking German shepherd.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  And it's running, chasing, not the kind like it chased for a little bit and then left. It was chase and my son's like, Ben, he put it on turbo and he's going, he's trying to, I mean, all the dogs chasing him, chasing him, chasing him. And I'm like, brother, this dog's not stopping like it's for real. And my son is slowly, I can see him getting more scared and more scared. I said, hey, follow me because he's kind of maneuvering, outmaneuvering the dog a little bit. So I was like, we'll go by by the owner and the owner will grab the dog. And my son, by the time we got over to the owner, he's scared. It's this panic mode already. He just flies past the owner. I stopped by the owner and he flies past the dog, just keeps chasing him. And to the point where I'm like, bro, he's gonna crash. That's how fast he's going. He's going over bumps and all this stuff. And so I'm like, oh, man.

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  So I'm yelling at him, hey, like, stop, come over here and stop or whatever. But he's already in panic mode going. And that when I felt, that's when I felt myself like, oh, shit, kind of like losing it or whatever. So I fly over there, the owner's running kind of next to me a little bit. And he's like, why won't he stop to like me about my son?

• 1:08:26Jocko Willink?

  Your fault.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And I was like, and I just cussed him out. We finally get there. Um, the dog stopped because another person was coming with their dog and the dog kind of like maneuvered and looked. And the lady like was like, uh, to my son, he was like, is that your dog? Like, what the hell's up with your dog? And he's like, no, no, it's not my dog. It's just chasing me or whatever. And she's like, oh, my gosh. And the dog kind of, and the owner runs over there or whatever. And he's like saying this and that. He's like, oh, he has a prey drive and all this stuff. And I, and I did lose my temper, just cuss the guy out. And he was like doing some weird stuff like he's basically, he's like,

• 1:09:01Speaker 01

  like some, he's just being weird, you know, like, kind of like he's trying to control his temper or whatever. It was kind of a, it was a scene for sure. And then, um, he was like, he kind of calmed down. He was like, oh, you want me to leave? You know, I told him a bunch of stuff like, yeah, I see you failed to observe the old leash or whatever. All this stuff like control your dog kind, you know, like, bro, you can't, like, we've been coming to this park for like 15 years. Before my son was even born. And freaking, he comes up there with his freaking dog, freaking chasing everybody, all this stuff. I can't control this dog, you know, really has no, he should not have been there, you know, kind of a thing. But anyway, it was super ugly. And I remember thinking, dang, I don't think I've ever lost my temper.

• 1:09:37Jocko Willink?

  You say you lost your temper.

• 1:09:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, yelling at him and cussing him out.

• 1:09:41Jocko Willink?

  Was, was, was any of that, was any of that performative?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  No, that's the, that's the thing. And I've done the performative thing before. Oh, freak yeah, at the club. Oh, hell yeah.

• 1:09:51Jocko Willink?

  Oh, when you were a bouncer?

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:53Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, the performative temper loss.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  Now, this was the kind of like I for real afterwards, I was like, bro, I was like out of control because I was ready to fight the guy.

• 1:10:00Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I, I, I did a performative, uh, temper loss, like, like I remember one time in the SEAL teams, like some, somebody did something. I was like, okay, they, and I had already talked to him about it and I was like, oh. And then as I was talking to him, they were like acting like this was no big deal. And I was like, oh, time for me to performatively lose my temper.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:10:19Jocko Willink?

  Um,

• 1:10:23Jocko Willink?

  yeah, it's, it's.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  That's way different.

• 1:10:26Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah, no, that's why, that's why I asked you to specify.

• 1:10:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:29Jocko Willink?

  Because if you were just, then it's still, that's not losing your temper. Like to performatively yell at someone like, that's, that's, that's, that's not losing your temper. But you uncontrollably like just started yelling at this dude.

• 1:10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. And swearing itself, which was weird because I remember thinking like, are you know how you almost have this weird out of body experience? Like, I'm like, bro, I'm cussing this guy out like full volume. And my son was like right there. He was happy. He was like freaking, yeah, freak this guy, freak his dog like. And then finally, after everything calmed down, he's like, he's like, well, you want me to leave? You want me to, um, take him away or whatever, like take the dog away, you know? And I, and I said, yeah.

• 1:11:08Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Speaker 01

  And then he like kind of got his girlfriend or wife.

• 1:11:13Speaker 01

  He was like tall.

• 1:11:14Jocko Willink?

  Scrap would have been good scrap.

• 1:11:16Speaker 01

  Oh, I don't know. I don't know if he was trained or what, but if he was untrained, no, no, no, I would have smashed him. Easy, easy money. I wasn't worried about that.

• 1:11:22Jocko Willink?

  Uh, it's, it's been a long time since I legitimately lost my temper.

• 1:11:29Jocko Willink?

  I'm thinking too, if, if I, I'm thinking it's not going to be towards humans. You know what I mean?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:35Jocko Willink?

  Like, I think like maybe I was, you know, doing something with some piece of gear.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:40Jocko Willink?

  And be like, ding.

• 1:11:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:43Jocko Willink?

  I, like, even that is pretty rare, but I'm more apt to do that than like, than, than, than have a person make me mad.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you so much because most of the time, like, I feel like when people elicit, or I don't know if they do some behavior that causes maybe a normal, quote, a quote, normal person, whatever that even means, uh, to lose their temper. I feel like you kind of win when you don't lose your temper. It's really like the front running feeling that I have or whatever. Um, the only time I think, and I think this kind of goes for everyone, no matter kind of who you are. This is the formula is like, when you feel like you're out of control of the situation, when you have lost control of the situation, then you lose your temper. And some people, when they have like short tempers or whatever, I feel like just generally speaking, they don't have control of their situation, you know, kind of thing. Just mentally, you know, kind of a thing. It always comes off like that anyway.

• 1:12:38Speaker 01

  So, yeah, yeah, like with people, it's not very hard to just act right in life.

• 1:12:42Jocko Willink?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:43Speaker 01

  To me anyway. So when people are not like not acting right and maybe might cause other people to lose their temper. I'm like, bro, this is just a person not acting right, you know, kind of a thing. But that dog and the thing just wouldn't stop. And like I said, like, I thought he was going to get really hurt, whether it be from the dog or crashing.

• 1:12:59Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And if you crash, then the dog bites him?

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:13:02Jocko Willink?

  Well, that's not good at all.

• 1:13:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was a little, little emergency scenario. And then the guy like, yeah, when he would yell at, and he was yelling at my son, kind of like we were doing something wrong. And he's the one that kind, you know, like it, I think, and this is in hindsight, you know?

• 1:13:15Jocko Willink?

  I've had, you know, weird, like weird people yell at me or whatever, you know, whether it was traffic or whatever, you know? Um, I'm trying to think, oh, I, I ran by someone and they were like as if they were gonna die. Uh, oh, actually I know what it was. It was during COVID. And I was on a run and, um, like I was not wearing a mask or following, uh, social distancing, right? And I was running, uh, on a cliff area. And as I was running, like there was a guy, dude, I mean, I'm out running. And this dude has three masks on and a face shield or whatever.

• 1:13:59Jocko Willink?

  And I didn't, I didn't really, I was just like, God, what a weirdo. And as I'm running, like he, he thought I had bubonic plague that was going to cause instant death if I went by him. And he like kind of freaking tried to scramble to get six feet from me. And then, you know, I heard the, you know, I, I just, again, like, I just kept running, you know? I wasn't like, I didn't even respond. I, I don't even think I respond to people. Like, I don't think I even respond. Like when I'm driving and I do like some, someone like whatever, something happens and someone honks at me. I literally just completely ignore them.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Jocko Willink?

  And just keep doing whatever I'm doing.

• 1:14:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, fully.

• 1:14:45Jocko Willink?

  Someone's gonna have to like, someone's gonna have to pit maneuver me, you know? Just freaking knock me for me to get, to get me to like respond to them. And even then I probably like re, re-attack.

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I'm with you. And I think just because I was, I was always mellow or whatever, like it's not that serious. Most things in my life is have thankfully not been that serious. So, yeah. The, um, brother, the performative lose temper thing or whatever. I did that one. It's fun. You know, uh, you know, Terry, right? Big Sexy, he was there.

• 1:15:18Speaker 01

  And this guy kept like, You know how people, okay, you ever heard of loud talking? You ever heard that expression? Like, like, like, instead of me telling you how I feel, I'll just say it over here, off to the side and make sure you can hear it. Cause it's almost like this in betweener confrontation. So it was like, he was kind of doing that, but in a weird way where he was talking to me, talking about, I'm from Chicago and I'm this and I'm that, but not in a way that was saying, therefore I do something to you, but he's saying it to me. And he kept getting closer and closer and like, kind of bumping me or whatever. It was just more annoying than anything, but and yeah, I wasn't losing my temper at all, but then I was just kind of tired of it or whatever. And then, yeah, I like acted like I lost my temper.

• 1:16:00Jocko Willink?

  Okay. You just, you just reminded me of something. This wasn't a temper loss, but it was, I was, I, it began as loud talking, me.

• 1:16:08Speaker 01

  You were loud talking.

• 1:16:09Jocko Willink?

  I was loud talking. So I'm on a hike with my family in Yosemite.

• 1:16:14Speaker 01

  I know this story.

• 1:16:15Jocko Willink?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  The smoking one?

• 1:16:16Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, yeah. We get to the most beautiful place, like what, hey, I'm not kidding. One of the most beautiful places on planet earth. Well, and it took, you know, four hours to get there hiking our kids, you know? Everyone's hot, tired, we'll get up there. There's a beautiful, like a, you know, it's part of the waterfall scenario, but the water wasn't running too hard to where it's just a, it's just a place. Majestic swim, we're gonna go swim. And we, we, we find a nice little, little spot. And we kind of set up there. We're gonna, you know, gonna go in the water and everything. And all of a sudden I smell just smoke, cigarette smoke. And sure enough, not eight feet away,

• 1:16:57Jocko Willink?

  on the other side of like a rock, there's this freaking family, um, or not family, but a group. And they're from Europe and they're just, they're all just sitting there smoking cigarettes. And I just was like, you know, hey, I'm like, oh, that's great. That's beautiful. Hey, can you blow some of that over? I was just doing that kind of shit. Cause it really, it really was a bummer.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:21Jocko Willink?

  And, yeah. And, and then I crawled over the rock and I like sat down next to him and I started doing like wafting smoke. I was like, oh, this is so nice. This is beautiful. I love this carcinogenics just into my, look, can you, can you blow that towards me a little bit more? And these people were meanwhile are horrified, like they might get chopped up and thrown into the river themselves.

• 1:17:42Jocko Willink?

  But I was definitely, I didn't like lose my temper, but I was really, I was, I was really like pissed. I was like, are you serious right now? You guys traveled up here, you traveled, you walked up here and you're gonna sit here and smoke us, smoke four cigarettes in a group? Are you serious right now?

• 1:18:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:18:01Jocko Willink?

  That pissed me off.

• 1:18:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like a, like a anger driven confrontation.

• 1:18:05Jocko Willink?

  It seemed like, it seemed like in a way, it seemed like I could find a way where slapping them all would be appropriate. Like, you know what I mean? I didn't do it, but I could see like walking up to him and be like, like take a cigarette out of their mouth, smack them in the face. Like you're so, you're so lost in what you're doing right now, that you should remember this and you need a spanking, right? In your face. I didn't do it. I'm not going to provoke this, you know, physicality, like all that stuff, but maybe that would have been the right thing to do is just like, hey, slap, turn around, slap, turn around, slap, turn around, slap, and then put out their cigarettes on their faces.

• 1:18:48Jocko Willink?

  No, on the, on the ground and be like, you know, this is a no smoking area. That would have been good, right? This is a no smoking area. After I, and I told you about my one friend that took a guy's cigarette from his mouth and shoved it up his nose.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:01Jocko Willink?

  So like, that would have been a little over the top.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, a little bit.

• 1:19:04Jocko Willink?

  That guy dropped when that friend of mine did that, that guy dropped as if he'd been shot in the head with a 300 windbag. Just like boom, just fell to the ground.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  Or like limp.

• 1:19:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, like, like it was just so reactive. When my friend took the cigarette out of his mouth and in the most Bruce Lee, right up his nose, direct hit.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  Oh, brother, that was so painful in your nose.

• 1:19:26Jocko Willink?

  The dude just collapsed.

• 1:19:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's weird. So it's interesting.

• 1:19:30Jocko Willink?

  Uh, yeah. Don't lose your temper.

• 1:19:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, um.

• 1:19:33Jocko Willink?

  If you can avoid it.

• 1:19:34Speaker 01

  I understand, brother, that, and I remember that story too. And I was like, bro, I feel you so much. Because like certain things are like, and it's kind of one of those things where it makes you even more frustrated that it's kind of that gray area, you know? Like if something is a clear violation, you know, you can go over there and be like, hey, you can handle it in whatever way. You can be nice about it. You can be mean about whatever. It's all justified, very clear, cut and dry. See what I'm saying? But it's like one of those things where people are just flagrantly ruining your time and kind of a lot of other people's time. And it's like, shoot, man, what do I do? And you're just, it adds to it.

• 1:20:10Jocko Willink?

  You got kids, little kids that are, they're breathing hard and here we are. So.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Breathing in your freaking tar.

• 1:20:21Jocko Willink?

  Check. Decisiveness. Studying your alternatives and making the best possible course of action. Obviously picking alternatives and making decisions quickly. Um, and I make a recommendation, um, use the iterative decision-making process. Knowing when not to step in to make a decision, important quality. Dependability, being places on time or when you say you will be there and meeting deadlines for tasks that you've been ordered or told to do, completing it. This is dependability. Endurance, maintaining mental and physical stamina. Having the ability to perform your duties under stress and for prolonged periods of time. I had a good level of that. Um, very lucky. Somewhat, it has to be somewhat genetic to just be able to like stay awake and keep going for a long time.

• 1:21:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:07Jocko Willink?

  That's definitely respected. And it's something that you, I think, I don't know if you can prepare for it, but I think you can like lock in.

• 1:21:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:19Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? Like it's time to lock in.

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  I, I, this is my hypothesis about it, where if you form, formal or informal, if you kind of teach yourself or, or train yourself to disregard your lack of sleep, to just kind of disregard it and truly, uh, regard it as a non-factor, you can do it.

• 1:21:42Jocko Willink?

  There's been times when you've come to record the podcast and you've been like, after the podcast, you said, yeah, I got an hour and a half sleep or I didn't sleep last night. So even Echo Charles, you know, could be like, all right, I'm just gonna lock in.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  Right. So in the, within the past, I'd say three years, maybe whatever, um,

• 1:22:02Speaker 01

  for various reasons, um, I, I came up with that hypothesis that like, cause sometimes I'll forget that I didn't get good sleep and I'll be like, ah, I really don't feel like working out. Eh, but whatever I work out, that's what I do, you know, whatever, how I feel and I'll work out. And then I'll remember, oh wait, I didn't get good sleep, but it wasn't a factor during the workout. I did the full workout effort, full effort, like the whole thing. See what I'm saying? So if lack of sleep was really that bad, I don't think I would have got the workout. And it's happened many, many, many times. And, you know, sometimes I'd forget that I didn't get good sleep. Sometimes I'd remember and just disregard it and be like, no, we're still working out. We're still doing this thing or whatever. And it's one of those things where, and I actually read this, where if you, you can trick yourself into thinking you got rest

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  and you can trick yourself into thinking you didn't get good rest. So like, if you're like, um, oh yeah, I can't really function with five hours of sleep. If you tell yourself that, your body kind of accommodates you. But if you're like, oh, I don't care. Like, I don't, like no factor kind of a thing. And then over time, then it's truly no factor.

• 1:23:05Jocko Willink?

  Yep. Literally no factor.

• 1:23:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:07Jocko Willink?

  Maybe, maybe that's where I'm at. Cause for so long I've been like no factor.

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  Maybe, yeah.

• 1:23:12Jocko Willink?

  Maybe I made that my identity and therefore it's just like who I am.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  I thought that before.

• 1:23:16Jocko Willink?

  But I, I have seen like friends of mine that when they get tired, they, it's a breakdown. You know what I mean? It's like, it's like, it's a, it's a breakdown.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  I have literally been like that in my lifetime for a long time, for sure. And I, I, it's like I have convinced myself, no, no, I need to go take a nap. I need to get my, that one, two hours sleep back. Otherwise I can't function. I've like consciously like thought that before.

• 1:23:43Jocko Willink?

  And now you decided otherwise.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  No factor. But the, yeah, the only concern about not getting enough sleep is the health stuff.

• 1:23:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. So okay, everyone, if you're freaking out right now, get sleep, sleep is good for you. In the book, leader, in the book, Discipline Goes Freedom Field Manual, I said, get sleep. Rest is good for you. Gotta recover all that stuff. But if you gotta push through some shit, you can, you can make it happen, dude. No, no big deal. You're gonna die.

• 1:24:05Speaker 01

  You are correct. I think, yeah. And that's why I think yours is genetic because you're, you don't have health issues.

• 1:24:13Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. And I, there's been times where I've been like, oh, whatever situation I'm in, don't, don't, I can sleep until whenever. And usually like six hours of sleep, you know? Go to bed at 10, wake up at 4:30 in the morning. That's whatever, six and a half hours of sleep. That's kind of what I need. That's kind of what I need. So, yeah, good to know.

• 1:24:37Jocko Willink?

  Enthusiasm. What a good quality, right? Consistently communicating a positive attitude to your Marines. Never complaining in front of your Marines about they or the system. Praising your Marine success, explaining to your Marines where, why they must perform tasks expected to them, of them in terms they can understand and accept. Dude, just be positive. Just be positive. It's so easy to reframe things positively. I think there's a, a saying of like, good.

• 1:25:06Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? So things went wrong. Good. We got an opportunity. I think that's a real thing that you can really do. Initiative, you know, take action, be a self-starter, plan ahead. Always look to improve things, integrity, telling the truth to both your superior and your Marines. Yep. Using your authority as a commander to work toward the mission accomplishment, not personal gain or glory. Yep. Encouraging honest and open communication in your company.

• 1:25:33Speaker 01

  You kind of just glossed over that self-starter thing. I, I, I truly do believe that's a harder thing for most people.

• 1:25:39Jocko Willink?

  Oh, a hundred percent.

• 1:25:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, than it sounds. Like self-starters, are you a self-starter? Fuck, yeah, all day. I'm bro, no we're not. Fuck, most of us are not. And most of us know that it's like, bro, when you just think about it for a second, it's hard to like self-start. Yeah.

• 1:25:57Jocko Willink?

  Self-start. It is a big deal. When you got self-starters, man, so nice on your team. Just, just prop them up and let them run.

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:06Jocko Willink?

  Cause most people you're saying are not, and you are right. Most people are not. It's not normal.

• 1:26:13Jocko Willink?

  Judgment, being able to weigh facts and get solutions. Taking all sides of an issue into consideration before making a decision that affects your Marines. Yep. Being, being calm, but not just calm, but being level headed, right? Not getting swayed by this or that. That's what we're doing. Just good solid judgment. Knowledge, making sound tactical decisions, doing all duties well, showing your Marines how they should perform their duties. Recognizing correcting inadequate performances of your Marines. Listen, are you always going to be able to do some job that someone else does better than them? No, you're not. You're not. This isn't saying you gotta be able to do the job better, right? But you better at least know about the job that they're doing.

• 1:26:59Jocko Willink?

  Tact, talking with your Marines, not at them. This is the third time we're seeing that. Speaking to your Marines with the same respect that you would expect. Hmm. Remember that one? Treat people with respect.

• 1:27:13Speaker 01

  So I've been thinking about this a lot lately. So that notion, but with your kids. So a lot of people, and it's subtle sometimes and sometimes it's flagrant, but a lot of times we don't talk to her. I try to, but we don't talk to our kids the way we would want people to, you know, like you're like, people are not polite to their kids sometimes.

• 1:27:36Jocko Willink?

  I'm gonna tell you right now. I'm gonna tell you right. You're a hundred percent right. The trustless and respect influencing care that I teach for building relationships with employees, with bosses, with adults, with peers, with all those people. It one hundred percent, one hundred percent is applicable to your kids. And for some reason, we, we, we carve out kids and be like, oh no, that doesn't apply to them. It a hundred percent applies to them. You want your kids to treat you with respect, treat them with respect. You want them to listen to you, listen to them. You want them to have influence, you want to have influence over them, you better allow them to influence you. If you do this, it is going to be infinitely better. If you think you can command respect because you're the dad.

• 1:28:16Jocko Willink?

  Nope. You could, yeah, sure. You can force them to do the dishes. They'll be pissed at you. This is a kid that's gonna end up freaking doing things that they shouldn't be doing. Yeah. When, when you're not around to impose your will on them, but if you teach them those good values. And you do that by building a good relationship. They're gonna, they're gonna emulate your values.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  And how you talk to people, how you, you know, like, bro, it's, that's something that I'm so glad that I listened to. What, I did this thing since the beginning. I don't know. I mean, so far, so good, but you never know. So my kids always, and they still do it, literally since they were super small until now, they'll be like, hey, what could I possibly do to make you mad? I was like, Brian, in theory, nothing, because anything you do is my fault. Like something I did or failed to do is like, it's kind of my fault. See what I'm saying? I was like, and they're like, what? Really? What about? And they think of stuff. I was like, yeah, but you think you would ever do it? Like, what if I stole something from the store? I was like, would you ever steal something from the store? They're like, no way.

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  So it's kind of like, you know, it's like one of those things. Like I said, I don't know. Maybe I didn't think it fully through, but I've maintained it and so far, so good. Like the, and, and they kind of like trust me, you know, when they make a mistake or they do something they think is bad or whatever, especially my daughter. Like she'll be like, let's say she's on a group chat or something. And I'm like, oh, who are you talking to? And then she won't mention maybe one of the, this actually happened in the past. She didn't mention one of the people on the group chat. Just cause I don't know, maybe I was, maybe didn't. She believed that maybe I didn't want her to talk into this person. Just her friends, whatever. Just her innocent mind or whatever. So she omitted that person.

• 1:29:54Speaker 01

  And then a few like hours later, she's like, she tells her mom like, oh my gosh, I didn't tell dad I lied. And she's like, all sad and guilty. I was like, actually good on you, you know, for that, because like lying by omission is the actual thing, but she came on her, on her own. It's not like mom told me that I was like, hey, you did, you know, it wasn't that, you know, she kind of on her own freaking told on herself because she didn't feel right about it. And it was like getting to her. So I was like, all right, yeah, there you go.

• 1:30:21Jocko Willink?

  It's funny, my kids would like tell me something, you know, something that was, you know, uh, you know, they went to a party and people were drunk or whatever, like, and they, they wouldn't tell necessarily my, their mom, my, my wife. Big H.

• 1:30:39Speaker 01

  Big H.

• 1:30:39Jocko Willink?

  You know, because she might be getting a little bit more hectic.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:30:43Jocko Willink?

  You know what I mean? But I would be like, oh, yeah, you know, even to the point where I'd be like, oh, anyone throw up. You know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, this girl threw up and she, she was like stumbling. They would kind of tell me what was up. And so that's because, you know, the trustless and respect influencing care. And yeah, if, if you earn their trust, if you think you're earning their trust by freaking out when they tell you something, like that doesn't, it's not a good move.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:11Jocko Willink?

  Not a good move.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, even like the day to day stuff where, and this is just what I noticed and I'm not judging at all. And by no means am I saying I'm like the greatest parent, nothing like this. But like, you know, just your, your normal day to day telling your kids to do stuff, you know, whether it be chores or brush your teeth or, you know, it's bedtime, whatever, the normal stuff or whatever. Like, I feel like a lot of times all witness parents talk to the kids like kind of more mean than they would someone else, you know, like their friend or something like, well, if you're like, hey, hey, take out that trash. That trash has been sitting there for a while. Like, would you ever talk to your friend, your neighbor or like that, you know? Or would you just sort of nicely politely remind them?

• 1:31:54Speaker 01

  Usually you probably politely remind your neighbor or your coworker or whatever, but meanwhile you're yelling at your kids all crazy, you know?

• 1:32:01Jocko Willink?

  Yep. The thing that's I think is very scary right now, it probably always has been scary, but not quite as scary is if you don't have a good relationship with your kids, your kids are gonna have a good relationship with some one or something else. Right now, the amount of brainwashing that is available through the interwebs is psychotic. It is truly psychotic. And some of the people, some of these kids that have been brainwashed, it's horrific to see. It's really truly horrific to see, to see, look, dude, kids are, kids are gonna do kid shit, right? And you gotta recognize that kids are gonna do kid shit.

• 1:32:44Jocko Willink?

  But if, you know, people can be absolutely manipulated. They're kids, they're 12, they're 15, they're 13, they're 18, they're nine. Those are impressionable brains. So I would, I haven't really had to deal, I didn't have to deal with it so much.

• 1:33:03Jocko Willink?

  You know, some of the horror, some of the horrific stories that you hear of people, kids being radicalized through online, you know, social media is really horrific to see. And if you're, if you don't have a good relationship, you probably won't see it until it's too late, as they say. Because there is a lot of evil out there and kids are the victims. And kids are not, not just the victims, kids are like the, um, they're the goal. It's the goal. It's the, it's the fertile ground is a kid, a nine year old kid, a 10 year old kid, 11 year old kid, a 15 year old kid.

• 1:33:49Jocko Willink?

  Those kids become radicalized and it's horrific to see. And so if you're not building your kid and, well, you know, what comes with a good relationship with your parents? Confidence. Uh, you get that value system. You kind of understand what's right and wrong. Like all those things are so critical. And what's scary right now is, you know, if your kid is nine years old in the eighties, they go out, look, you can't monitor everything that they're doing. By the time they're, you know, 13, 14, 15, like when I was 14 years old, I was going to New York City on my own, going to hardcore shows. Like I, I'm actually kind of surprised I did that shit, you know, that my parents were like, oh, whatever.

• 1:34:33Jocko Willink?

  I mean, taking the train by myself to New York City and then going to freaking Hell's Kitchen, going to CBGB's and there's, you know, just cra- it's crazy, it's crazy. At that time, man, you couldn't, it was, I, I don't know if this exists, but when you would walk through Times Square, every five steps that you took, I'm not kidding. Someone would say coke, drugs, pot, weed, hookers. Like, I'm not kidding. It was freaking nuts, dude.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  How old were you at this?

• 1:35:03Jocko Willink?

  This is the late eighties. So I'm in my teens, you know, probably between the ages of, I mean, I was definitely, I was going down there before I could drive. So I'm 15 and under.

• 1:35:17Jocko Willink?

  And

• 1:35:19Jocko Willink?

  You know, you, you, if you don't have those kind of pre-standing values, then you go into the world and it can be problematic. But I had to be released to the world. Nowadays, the world is in your pocket. The world is in the computer. And so all this evils out there trying to get into kids' heads, trying to lead them down a bad path, and it's very horrific to see. It's really horrific to see what kids can turn into. And you know, it's funny because when in the eighties, right? This is when they had the, the, you know, what was it? Heavy metal was being, you know, it's satanic and all this stuff. And it's evil and all that. And then they put the warnings on the, the record labels from Al Gore's wife,

• 1:36:03Jocko Willink?

  Tipper Gore was this big thing and explicit labels. And all that made was the kids like, okay, this is the album I want now.

• 1:36:11Jocko Willink?

  But, but think of a, they thought that like a song was gonna, you know, manipulate a kid's brain. Now you get a kid that is interacting with another human whose goal it is to manipulate people. And I've, I've been trying to find some better information on brainwashing. You know, I think we did a couple underground episodes about brainwashing. Maybe I'll revisit some of those documents. But it's, when you see it, look, P, look, kids, people can be convinced. Kids, kids are in cults. When I was a kid, there was people that got into cults that I knew.

• 1:36:52Jocko Willink?

  And their parents had to go and get them, uh, they would kidnap the kids back and get them deprogrammed. Bro, deprogrammed.

• 1:37:05Jocko Willink?

  This is scary and it's probably happening at a scale now that is much, much larger than it used to be once again, because back in the eighties, for me as a cult leader to find someone, I had to go and physically find them on the street somewhere. Now I can just access them through their phone. So it's, it's really disturbing. And we, and we've got to be, this is why we have to build good relationships with your kids. And your kids have to have the, I got asked the other day on an interview like, oh, you, this is kind of the, you know, the, the, the, the standard kind of Jocko joke of like, hey, you know, I'd love, I can't imagine what you would do to a guy that was coming to date. You're one of your daughters. And you just, well, how would you treat someone? How did you treat someone like that?

• 1:37:50Jocko Willink?

  And I was like, well, quite frankly, my daughters can handle themselves. They have strong values. They're strong minded and they do Jiu-Jitsu. And I'm not, I've told my girls since day one, I'm not always going to be there. So I don't have to look over your shoulder and make sure that you're being treated correctly. You will be treated correctly. And if you're not, you'll stand up for yourself. I says, I don't have to do, I don't guard my daughters. My daughters guard themselves. You, you want to get heel hooked?

• 1:38:17Jocko Willink?

  You want to get it straight and be locked? But, but that's the thing is the way this is done is by developing those strong relationships. And by the way, this is what they're talking about with the Marines and the army. When you have a Marine, an 18-year-old Marine, like what kind of relationship does he have with his, with his platoon leader, with his platoon sergeant? And if his platoon sergeant is like, hey, we're Marines. We don't do this. We don't do that. We set the example, like all those things, bro, they're making the right decision out in town. If their platoon sergeant is like, hey, we're Marines, we party, we drink. Which by the way, when I got to SEAL teams, that's what it was. That's what we do. I was like, okay, that's what we do. I was like on board. I was brainwashed. You know, hey, like this is what we do. Okay. This is what we're doing.

• 1:38:59Jocko Willink?

  You know, that's what we're doing. We're, we're, we're getting drunk, going to party. That's what we're doing. Okay. That's what we're doing. Nope. Nope. So what you do when you build a relationship with your kids, get the right values in place. And again, am I saying that you necessarily need to force those values down your, down their throat? And I'll, no, I will tell you the same thing that I told you about when I never had like a command philosophy like Seth had. Cause, and it's because people knew me. They already knew my reputation. They weren't going to be like, oh, are we going to train hard? Like, no, no, they knew it. And, and my kids was kind of the same way. I never like sat them down. I did have, I'll try and find it. I did have like a way of the Willink or something like that.

• 1:39:40Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 1:39:42Jocko Willink?

  But it ended up being way of the warrior kid, like the code, the warrior kid code is, is what that became. But I never, I shouldn't say I never, I, even though I, I wrote that one time, like for my kids. But I wasn't like, hey, here's the rules and like the willing, I didn't, I kind of wrote it and just like, hey, guys, this is, you know, I don't even know if I even really frigging reviewed it. But they knew. They knew, they knew like, oh, we need to get really good grades. I never said like, you need straight A's. No, they just did it. I never said, hey, you can, you know, you, you need to work hard. Never said that. They just did it. So.

• 1:40:16Speaker 01

  You have this and I, and you're actually a good example of this where, yeah, like shoving values down your kids' throat or whatever, like as you've said many times, like that's not how it works. And really put real simply, if you can provide an environment with consistent values displayed, uh, what you're for and against, or should I say what you're against and for too. You know, you can't just be like, hey, we're the Willink. We don't do X, Y, Z. Meanwhile, you're not really shedding light on what you do.

• 1:40:48Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. Or you're saying we don't do these things, but you're doing.

• 1:40:51Speaker 01

  Exactly right. Or sometimes doing them and sometimes not. You see what I'm saying? It's wishy washy. But yeah, you don't have to have a list of values or whatever. If you're living the list of values every single day, you see what I'm saying? So like, um, and this is usually how it works too, where, um, like I, it's, I know it is fun when you're talking about your girls where it's like, oh yeah, they might get heel hooked or whatever. That's usually not what it looks like. It's usually like when a guy will like enter their life that is like substandard to their values or whatever. They simply will steer clear of them just naturally. They won't have to put on this big show of rejection. It's not that. They just like, they're, they don't gravitate towards people. It's like if, if me and you were cruising or we're walking, I don't know, down the street, you know, we're going to some restaurant.

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  And we see some like homeless people doing drugs. We're not going to be like, hey, let's go see what they're up to. That looks like that's fun. We're like, no, we're just going to steer clear of the homeless people. See what I'm saying? It's an extreme example of like how that works. So you get like, you know, any girl, young girl with, with good, strong moral values or whatever. This bad boy, you know, player dude or whatever, he's not really going to show up on her radar as, as an attractive thing. See what I'm saying? And even if he does by looks, like he immediately will go off the radar because it's like, you just sort of steer clear. Cause it's not like what you're attracted to in life, you know?

• 1:42:05Jocko Willink?

  You're right. You're right. And again, I, I want to, I, I want to restate this. I don't, I, I said that I never really, I never had like the, uh, the command philosophy for my guys. I never really had like, hey, this is the, this is what we're doing. Willing this, recite this code to me. I, I'm not saying that that's bad. I, I, I'm just saying I simply didn't do it. I think that I had, you know, sort of a strong, underlying tone in my existence.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Consistent.

• 1:42:40Jocko Willink?

  Consistent. That, that, that said that. If I was listening to this podcast right now and I had a three-year-old and a five-year-old, I would be like, oh, no, no. Okay. We're writing a code. I would, I would get the way the warrior could, okay, we're going to make this, we're going to make this for us. And we're going to start to, again, we're going to start to live it. Not to dictate it to your kids, not to cram it down their throat, but this is what we're doing. And when your kid goes, daddy, why can't we get, you know, why can't I get some ice cream? You know, you don't say, cause that's against the code. You go, well, let's, let's talk about what that does to you long-term. If you really want ice cream tonight, you can get ice cream tonight. Cool. But let's think about, you know, having, living it and being able to, uh, convey it in a way that makes sense. This is just good.

• 1:43:26Jocko Willink?

  That's what I would recommend. Um, and the consistent part is huge. I remember a long time, I forget what this, we were talking about something. Sarah Armstrong would just was like consistency as you know, she's a, her parents or her, her kids are adults like mine. But you know, that's one thing that she talked about was, hey, it's about consistency. It's kind of like, it's kind of like training a dog. You know what I mean? Like with a dog, you, you let that, if you, if your dog's not allowed to go past a certain point in the yard and you correct them seven times,

• 1:44:02Jocko Willink?

  generally speaking, they won't do it anymore. If you correct them once and they go and they get away with it. And then you correct them again and they get away with it again. It, it, it's, you don't, they're not trained. So being consistent and letting the, the kids see that you live this way is extremely important. And when you fall short of it, another thing, when you fall short of it, you need to own it and explain that you're sorry that you let them down, that you're sorry your behavior was, you know, you shouldn't have been doing whatever it is that you were doing. You know, if you lose your temper with your kids, you need to explain, you need to apologize. This is bad stuff.

• 1:44:42Jocko Willink?

  When you do things that are wrong, you need to own it. And I think that the, that's the reason that I put the code in the Warrior Kid book is because people need a code. That's why I wrote the code, the evaluation, the protocol. With Dave Burke and Sarah Armstrong. The reason I did that is because the same thing, I'm like, you know what? I wrote the book, I wrote the kids book, but people, humans need a code. They need a code. Cause once you have it, then you go, okay, wait a second. Is this for real? But it's important that you've got to understand the why. You got to understand, you can't just say, uh, we, we keep our room clean. You can't just say that. You need to say, we keep our room clean and ready for action.

• 1:45:25Jocko Willink?

  And the reason we do that, you know, this might not be in the code, but you say, and the reason we do that is here's some mistakes that you can make. Here's, here's why having a dirty room can trip you up. What if the firefighters come and there's a fire in the house and they're coming in through the window to rescue you? And they trip over something and fall down and now listen, they can't get you out of there. There's a reason for this. So they got, there's got to be a why. It's kind of like standard operating procedures. You have a platoon, you have standard operating procedures. You just can't impose them on people. They got to have the understanding of why this standard operating procedure exists.

• 1:45:55Jocko Willink?

  So even though I, I, I'm telling you, I did not write a code for, you know, my platoon or for my task unit, or even really for my family. I strongly recommend that you do it. Kind of like in this thing, they write, hey, write out what is your command philosophy and explain it. Like explain to your kids, hey, guys, when you make a mistake, here's what I'm going to do.

• 1:46:18Jocko Willink?

  I'm not going to lose my mind. I'm not going to, um, you know, punish you out of anger. But there will be consequences, especially if these following things are broken.

• 1:46:31Jocko Willink?

  You know, I mean,

• 1:46:34Jocko Willink?

  and they're, they should know, they should know what the limitations are. They should know what they can and cannot get away with. And there's some lines, there should be some red lines, you know, like if, if you cross this line, your whole world is going to change.

• 1:46:55Jocko Willink?

  Which is something I told my kids, there was a couple of lines. And I actually only told that to my son, it was a couple of lines that if you cross these lines. In fact, I, I used, uh, I swore at him, you know, when he was like, I never swore in front of my kids, never swore in front of my kids. I never swore in front of my wife or kids. I say, I use the past tense because now, you know, they're adults and so I, I'll swear in front of them now. But, you know, at a certain point I told my son, like, hey, if this thing happens, your whole fucking world is going to change.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  How old was he?

• 1:47:25Jocko Willink?

  He was probably 13. Right around the timeframe where your world, you can make really bad decisions. And, uh, I think he understood that in no uncertain terms. Like, you, you have a good, that's another thing is like, you've heard me say, treat your kids like adults as much as you can. And I treated my kids like adults, even when they were 12, 13. Okay. You know, you, I trust you, you go out, you're going to do this, you're going to do that. Sleepover, uh, uh, you know, party, whatever, 15, party, beach, like, you know, drinking, like, there's, that's all that stuff is happening. Okay. You can do it. I trust you, you trust me. So, important stuff to think about.

• 1:48:07Jocko Willink?

  Uh, back to these traits here, unselfishness, clearly, you know, if you're selfish as a, as a leader, you're going to be, you're going to be looked down upon. Loyalty, displaying faithfulness to your country, the core, your unit, your seniors, your subordinates and your peers.

• 1:48:23Jocko Willink?

  Displaying enthusiasm and carrying out an order, although you may privately disagree with it. Again, you gotta be careful with that one. You gotta be careful because they'll see it. What you really should do is ask the question, why up the chain of command? And you're going to realize that you're doing it for a reason. Because the amount of times that I was, I always bring up, well, you get ordered to do something dumb. The amount of times I was actually ordered to do something dumb was miniscule. Miniscule. My bosses were always like, well, hold on a second, what'd you say? And I said, well, it's this, this and this. And here's the, here's the secondary effects and here's the tertiary. They're like, oh, didn't see that. Okay, cool. Jocko, go ahead and do what you want. That's most of the time. Most of the time. Yeah. Can you do something that's like, hey, guys, this is going to suck, but here's why we're doing it.

• 1:49:03Jocko Willink?

  Hey, we gotta go do this thing again, but guess what? It's because the whole battalion screwed this up and now we gotta do a repeat. We can't just, we don't want to skip out. Does anyone here want to look like the people that said, hey, we don't want to work hard tonight? No, of course not. We're Marines. We're going to go do this. Boom.

• 1:49:17Jocko Willink?

  I think that's the last thing we're going to get into is leadership principles and these are stuff that we've covered before. Know yourself and seek self-improvement. Evaluate yourself by leadership traits, determine your strengths and weaknesses, achieve self-improvement by reading and observing. Ask your friends and seniors for an honest evaluation of your leadership. This will help you to know your weaknesses and strengths. Important. Be technically and tactically proficient, of course, know your job. Again, these are stuff we've covered before. Know your Marines, look out for their welfare. This is one of the most important principles. Might be the most important principle. Should know your Marines and how they react to different situations. A Marine who is nervous and lacks self-confidence should never be put in a situation where an important instant decision must be made.

• 1:49:59Jocko Willink?

  Knowledge of your Marines personalities will enable you as a leader to decide how to best handle each Marine and to determine when to closely supervise each.

• 1:50:10Jocko Willink?

  So, put your Marines welfare before your own, of course. Determine what your Marines' mental attitudes are. Keep in touch with their thoughts. Encourage individual development. Share the hardships of your Marines so that you can better understand their reactions. Check. Keep your Marines informed. Marines by nature are inquisitive. Explain the why.

• 1:50:34Jocko Willink?

  Detect the spread of rumors and stop them by replacing them with the truth. Build morale and esprit de corps by publicizing information concerning successes of your unit. Yes, set the example. Set the example. As a Marine leader, your duty is to set the standards for your Marines by personal example, your appearance, attitude, physical fitness and personal example are all watched by Marines in your unit. If your personal standards are high, then you can rightfully defend this, demand the same of your Marines. If your personal standards are not high, you are setting a double standard for your Marines and you will rapidly lose their respect and confidence. Remember your Marines reflect your image. Leadership is taught by example. There you go. Be physically fit, well groomed and correctly dressed.

• 1:51:22Jocko Willink?

  Do not expose your personal habits to criticism. I'm not quite sure, there's a couple of other ones in here, but do not expose your personal habits to criticism. I think what that means is, don't do shit that you will, is open to criticism. Like, if you're acting like a drunk idiot, you're, it's not good. If you're falling out of runs, it's not good. You know, and it's saying personal habits, so whatever, like, uh, you know, you got, you, you're, you're missing your car payment, your car's getting repo'd, like, oh, that ain't looking good.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that makes sense.

• 1:51:56Jocko Willink?

  Exercise initiative to promote the spirit of initiative in your Marines.

• 1:52:01Jocko Willink?

  Avoid over-supervision. Number six, ensure that the task is understood, supervised and accomplished. This principle is necessary to exercise command. Before you can expect your Marines to perform, they must know first what is expected of them. You must communicate your instructions in a clear, concise manner. Boom. The most important part of this principle is to accomplish the mission. Otherwise, all leadership supervision and guidance in the world are wasted. You gotta get the job done. Train your Marines as a team. Teamwork is the key to successful operations. Teamwork is essential. From the smallest to the largest element in the entire Marine Corps, as a company commander, you must insist on work, teamwork from your Marines.

• 1:52:41Jocko Willink?

  Train, play and operate as a team. Be sure that each Marine knows his position and responsibilities within the team framework. Reward and discipline the team. Never publicly blame an individual for the team's failure nor praise one individual for the team's success. Good. Number eight, make sound and timely decisions.

• 1:53:00Jocko Willink?

  Consider the advice and suggestions of your subordinates whenever possible. Develop a sense of responsibility among your subordinates. Another way to show your Marines that you are interested in their welfare is to give them the opportunity for professional development. Assigning tasks and delegating authority to accomplish tasks promotes mutual confidence and respect between the leader and the subordinates. Also makes a note, operate through the chain of command. Give your Marines frequent opportunities to perform duties usually performed by the next higher ranks. So, let's give people another late a chance.

• 1:53:34Jocko Willink?

  Let Marines know that you will accept honest errors without punishment in return. Check. Resist the urge to micromanage. Don't give restrictive guidance which destroys initiative. Assign Marines positions according to demonstrated or potential ability. Good. Number 10, employ your command according to its capabilities. Successfully completing a task depends on how well you know your unit's capabilities. Assigning a task that your unit has not been trained to do will result in failure. Failures lower your unit's morale, self-esteem and confidence. Seek out challenging tasks for units, for your unit, but be sure your unit is prepared for and has the ability to successfully complete the mission.

• 1:54:17Jocko Willink?

  Important. Sometimes I'll get asked, you know, I got bad morale in my team or whatever. And, um, you know, how can I improve morale? Win. And even winning small things, look, not stupid things, but small things, it's okay. If you do that, you, you'll be, you'll make some progress. And over time you can take on bigger challenges and you'll be all right. And this is the last one that we're going to cover. Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions. I think there's a book about that.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hear good things.

• 1:54:45Jocko Willink?

  You are responsible for all that your unit does or fails to do. You are responsible for the decision and its application regardless of your subordinate's actions. You must issue all orders in your name. Stick by your convictions and do what you think is right, but accept justified criticism.

• 1:55:06Jocko Willink?

  Never remove or demote a subordinate for a failure resulting from your own mistake. It's important. And just remember, stick by your convictions doesn't mean keep doing the same thing when it's not working.

• 1:55:21Jocko Willink?

  Learn the duties of your immediate senior. Be prepared to accept responsibilities for these duties. Take every opportunity that offers increased responsibility. That's a rough one.

• 1:55:31Jocko Willink?

  Perform every act, large or small, to the best of your ability. Stand up for what you believe is right. Have the courage of your convictions. That doesn't mean close your mind. That doesn't mean don't listen to people.

• 1:55:43Jocko Willink?

  In fact, I would add a caveat. Try and understand other people's perspectives.

• 1:55:49Jocko Willink?

  Cause what you believe is right might not be right. Carefully evaluate a subordinate's failure before taking action. Ensure that the apparent shortcomings are not due to an error on your part. They probably are. They work for you. You're the boss. Take ownership.

• 1:56:05Jocko Willink?

  Consider Marines that are available. Salvage one if possible, replace when necessary. You don't always, you don't always just get a new Marine.

• 1:56:15Jocko Willink?

  The SEAL, when you fire a SEAL, you're probably not getting a replacement. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't. Can't count on it.

• 1:56:21Jocko Willink?

  In the absence of orders, take the initiative and to perform the actions that you believe your senior would direct you to perform if you were present.

• 1:56:29Jocko Willink?

  And then closing it out, here's the summary. These leadership principles are proven guidelines, which if followed, will substantially enhance your ability to lead Marines. Remember, by implementing these principles, you'll earn the respect of your fellow Marines, juniors and seniors, and you will become an effective commander. So, there you go.

• 1:56:52Jocko Willink?

  Anything we have not heard before? I don't really think so.

• 1:56:56Jocko Willink?

  I don't really think so. Why do we need to keep hearing it over and over again? That's the question. The answer to that is because it's against our instincts. Our instincts are telling us to do the opposite. Blame other people, work in silos. That's what, that's what our instincts are telling us to do. Leadership is counterintuitive. So, we have to pay attention. It's a good guide. This is a little guidebook. Kind of let you know, little reminders. Reminder to, to pay attention and do what you're supposed to do. Not what you want to do, not what feels good, not what seems right, not what you can convince yourself of, not what you can,

• 1:57:36Jocko Willink?

  debate with yourself about, not what you can rationalize. Do what you're supposed to do. Do what you're supposed to do.

• 1:57:45Jocko Willink?

  That's how we're leading.

• 1:57:49Jocko Willink?

  Also part of leadership, we heard it a couple of times today. Physical fitness.

• 1:57:55Jocko Willink?

  Man, you gotta be physically fit. Should be your number one strategic goal in your life. Does that sound crazy?

• 1:58:02Speaker 01

  To me, that does not sound crazy, no.

• 1:58:04Jocko Willink?

  The number one strategic goal of your life should be to be healthy as you can. It needs to be. Cause once we lose that. Now, look, does that mean that every season of your life, it's going to be the number one thing? Nope. There might be three weeks where, you know, work is consuming or kid gets sick or there's something you gotta do. I mean, I, I got a friend that had a very sick daughter.

• 1:58:28Jocko Willink?

  And he, like physically, wasn't able to do anything for months. He was explaining it to me. It's like awful. But that's what you do. You know, you take care of family. So are there going to be seasons? Yep. Where the strategic priority becomes taking care of your daughter? Yeah, absolutely. As soon as you get through that, guess what? Get back on the path. You gotta get back on the path. The health, again, I'm going to quote RFK Junior. A healthy person has a thousand problems. A sick person only has one. So you gotta, so if you want to contend with the world, all the problems that we have in the world, all the things that we gotta do in the world, you gotta contend with all those things. You gotta be healthy.

• 1:59:08Jocko Willink?

  So that means, guess what? We're getting after it. We're lifting, we're running, we're sprinting, we're training the jiu-jitsu. We're just generally getting after it. That's what we're doing. And when we do that, Echo Charles, is there anything specific that we need?

• 1:59:21Speaker 01

  Some fuel.

• 1:59:22Jocko Willink?

  We need fuel. Hey, check out Jocko Fuel. We have everything that you need. We got protein. Get the best tasting protein. Get the most efficacious protein. We got protein that tastes like dessert. Uh, we got the best energy drinks that are clean and healthy. We get hydration. We got supplementation. We got everything that you need. Creatine. Get on the creatine train. Get on, I just, someone just, uh, hit me up on social media. They're, they doubled their creatine dosage. They're getting into my zone. No, I think, no, they doubled their creatine dosage and they're at half my zone.

• 1:59:56Speaker 01

  My zone.

• 1:59:57Jocko Willink?

  Yeah. What are you doing? 10 grams, 10 grams a day? Morning, night?

• 2:00:00Speaker 01

  Morning, morning.

• 2:00:01Jocko Willink?

  Two, two scoops in the morning. Dry scoop?

• 2:00:04Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:04Jocko Willink?

  Mixed with hydrate.

• 2:00:05Speaker 01

  It makes the hydrate water, you know, some other good stuff.

• 2:00:08Jocko Willink?

  The muscle drive? Do you have muscle drive?

• 2:00:10Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:00:11Jocko Willink?

  You, you gotta get on the muscle drive. Uh, muscle drive is, it's very interesting. It's very helpful. Like it, one thing that kind of, especially for me, because a lot of times I'm not hungry in the morning, right? But I know my body needs a little bit of fuel.

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  Me too.

• 2:00:29Jocko Willink?

  That muscle drive is good to go. And it gives you, it's, it's like satiating. Oddly enough, it's kind of makes you, your body goes, oh, cool. Thank you. We're good for a little bit.

• 2:00:37Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 2:00:38Jocko Willink?

  We're good for a little bit.

• 2:00:38Speaker 01

  Curbs of hunger.

• 2:00:39Jocko Willink?

  For, for weight cutting. Got some folks, weight cutting, obviously. We have a, a gym where we compete and people are cutting weight and that muscle drive's been clutch. Clutch. I was talking to Nate and he was like, uh, yeah, he's been cutting some weight and he was like, good to go. Maintain the strength, cut the weight. So muscle drive, we got all kinds of great products. So available kind of anywhere right now. But if it's not available at the store that you go to, well, ask them for it. And in the meantime, also, JacoFuel.com, you can just order it. We'll ship it to your house. We got an amazing logistics team and they will get it to you ASAP. Usually ships same day, by the way.

• 2:01:24Jocko Willink?

  It's kind of crazy. You know, the, the Jocko Fuel team, there's so many, so much data is, gets analyzed.

• 2:01:31Jocko Willink?

  I know, like on a daily basis, usually I, usually I get the report on a, on a Fridays. But every day, the logistic team knows how many packages to ship are outstanding that day. And it's like, oh yeah, we got, we got seven packages that didn't go out. They're going out first thing because of whatever. You know, but you know, you're shipping thousands of packages. Like, oh yeah, we got seven that didn't ship. It's pretty, pretty amazing. So the logistics team, JacoFuel.com, they'll get you what you need. They'll get it to you stacked. Uh, also, since we are training and we're training jiu-jitsu, hopefully. OriginUSA.com, we've got jiu-jitsu geese, jiu-jitsu rash guards,

• 2:02:15Jocko Willink?

  jiu-jitsu shorts. We got everything. But not only that, you're not training jiu-jitsu all the time, unfortunately. We're also going to the restaurant with our spouses. You're gonna need jeans.

• 2:02:27Jocko Willink?

  Origin USA jeans. Made in America.

• 2:02:29Speaker 01

  For husband and wife, by the way.

• 2:02:31Jocko Willink?

  Husband and wife. Husband and wife. We got everything that you need. Hoodies, t-shirts, everything 100% made in America. No communism. No communism. This is a, an American owned company. This is made in America. This is the, the, the material that the shirts are made of is American. The zippers are American. The buttons are American. The strings are, it's all American. It's 100% American made. This is what we're doing. We're rebuilding the manufacturing capability in America. We're rebuilding the economy in America and we're rebuilding the communities in America. So go to OriginUSA.com and get yourself some American made goods. Freedom. Let's go.

• 2:03:16Speaker 01

  Yes. Shout out to those little, uh, what are those? The dry fit kind of hoodies that you get?

• 2:03:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Bro, that's like a everyday scenario.

• 2:03:30Jocko Willink?

  Everyday scenario slash, I have one of those at all times with me. Yeah. So when I travel, I have one in my bag. It's real small. I have that and I have the, the wind shirt. That, that thing goes with me wherever I go. You can survive like 90% of scenarios that you'll encounter in the continental United States with that right there.

• 2:03:49Speaker 01

  Bro, I'm so with you. So the, wait, you called it the wind shirt?

• 2:03:52Jocko Willink?

  Yeah, I called it the wind shirt. I forget the technical name for it.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  Okay. So is that the jacket? It's like a jacket, the zipper, right? No, this, okay. Bro, I'm 100% with you. Bro, because it fits anywhere.

• 2:04:01Jocko Willink?

  Fits anywhere.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Bro, you can put it in your pocket if you need to. Yeah. Brother, yeah, that thing's so clutch.

• 2:04:06Jocko Willink?

  And the reason we, that's one of the first things that we made, like outerwear. And when we started reviewing like, hey, what are we going to make? I was like, hey, we're going to make a wind shirt. The reason I knew that is because in, when I was in the teams, Burke, in the day, I would carry that wind shirt with me because it, it, it saved me. It saved me. You're getting this, because when you cut that wind out,

• 2:04:29Jocko Willink?

  kind of GTG. And look, if it's a torrential rain, it, it, it's, it's not waterproof. But you know, like the light rain that you're going to get, that you, that you can seek shelter from. You know, you'll, you'll be okay. But the wind? Sometimes we get in situations, you can't escape the wind, you know? So you gotta break that thing out. And then when you have that little, and I'll tell you what, just kind of made it into my arena. And this is kind of a, an admission on my part. Cause you remember I used to hassle you about the lightweight hoodies? Well, that stealth wool shirt is clutch. And once again, it's way smaller than like a hoodie, hoodie.

• 2:05:12Jocko Willink?

  Cause it's just thinner, but that wool, that stealth wool is GTG. So I have, one of them has little buttons on it. There's a name, there's like a special name for it. And then there's one of them that just has a hood. And so, yeah, they're really good to go. It's good to go. So. We got some stuff for you. OriginUSA.com, 100% communist free.

• 2:05:34Speaker 01

  It's true. Also, don't forget about Jocko Store. You know, you want to represent t-shirts. We've got some hoodies on there as well. Summertime is about to end soon in a month, whatever. Either way, either way. We've got something for you. Discipline equals freedom. Represent good. Represent. Stand by to get some. That's a little sleeper. A lot of people been like, they see that one, they grab that one too.

• 2:05:57Speaker 01

  Don't forget. And, uh, also get after it. That's a good one. It's a real good one. We got a new get after it. Well, it's kind of old, a few months old, but available nonetheless. Also the short locker subscription scenario, new design every month.

• 2:06:10Speaker 01

  This month I got a fun one. You gotta check out the website to see what it is. Um, yeah. New design every month. Um, it's called the shirt locker.

• 2:06:18Jocko Willink?

  Teasing, teasing everyone. Building anticipation. Brief description for it.

• 2:06:24Speaker 01

  If you're generation X, you're gonna know. You're gonna know, you're gonna be happy.

• 2:06:28Jocko Willink?

  That's not even remotely close to a description.

• 2:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's a hint.

• 2:06:33Jocko Willink?

  Okay, great. Thank you. Appreciate it.

• 2:06:36Speaker 01

  Either way, it is available on jocko store.com.

• 2:06:40Jocko Willink?

  Check. Also, we've got some books. Put Your Legs On by Rob Jones, Need to Lead by Dave Burke, Extreme Ownership, Dichotomy of Leadership, Leadership Strategy and Tactics, Discipline = Freedom Field Manual, and Wave the Warrior Kid, Mikey and the Dragon. We got everything for you. We got everything for you. So, check that out. Also, coloradocraftbeef.com. If you need, if you need steak, which you do, go to coloradocraftbeef.com and get the best steak that you can find

• 2:07:10Jocko Willink?

  here in America. Echelonfront.com, we teach leadership principles. You've heard a lot about them today. We teach them. We bring them inside your organization. We help you with the problems that you have through leadership. So, check out echelonfront.com. Also, extremeownership.com. This is our online training academy for leadership skills. Check out extremeownership.com if you want to get engaged with that. And if you want to help service members, active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help Gold Star families, check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee. She's got an amazing charity organization. If you want to donate or you want to get involved, go to AmericasMightyWarriors.org. Also, check out heroesandhorses.org. And then Jimmy May's organization, BeyondTheBrotherhood.org.

• 2:07:55Jocko Willink?

  Got a swim going in New York City. So, if you want to get involved with that, go and check out BeyondTheBrotherhood.org. And then, of course, there's warriorsinneed.org, taking our aviation field from the military and getting you into the civilian sector. Thirty thousand jobs waiting. So, get engaged with that. If you want to connect with us, check out jocko.com. And then, on social media, I'm at jocko willink, echo's at echo charles. Just watch out for this freaking stupid algorithm and the stupid people that are trying to build it up. The people, they're not stupid. They're trying to brainwash you. Trying to brainwash. Look, I talked about kids. They're trying to

• 2:08:38Jocko Willink?

  brainwash me. Trying to brainwash Echo Charles. They're definitely trying to brainwash all of us. Even if the brainwashing is merely to just stay there longer and look at more stupid shit, they're in there. So, it's a monster. Don't let it get you. Thanks to all of our service members that are deployed around the world right now. They're in harm's way, clearly. We've been taking casualties. It's awful to see, but we thank you for executing the missions that you're on and security and stability for America. We thank you for your sacrifices and thanks for what you do. Also, thanks to our police, law enforcement, firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, Border Patrol, Secret Service, as well as all other first

• 2:09:23Jocko Willink?

  responders. Thanks for what you do to protect us here at home. And everyone else out there, just remember some of these lessons from the Marine Corps. Two hundred and fifty years, they've been gathering these lessons. Pay attention to what you're doing. Pay attention to how you act.

• 2:09:39Jocko Willink?

  Set the standard. Control your tempo, Echo Charles.

• 2:09:43Speaker 01

  Yes, sir.

• 2:09:44Jocko Willink?

  Keep your word. Own your mistakes. Be on time. Be physically and mentally prepared. Don't complain.

• 2:09:54Jocko Willink?

  Don't complain. Always improve. These are the things we need to do. And if you, if you keep these thoughts in front of mind, if you don't get pulled off the path by your lizard brain, which is constantly, like, it's not a lizard, it's a Komodo dragon. It may even just be a straight-up dragon. And it's trying to grab a hold of you and get you to, you know, eat a donut, get you to scroll more, get you to lose your temper, doing all those things. Modern distractions. It's trying to, it's trying to employ your emotions, trying to employ your ego.

• 2:10:30Jocko Willink?

  Just keep the real elements of being a good person and a good leader front of mind. And if you do that, you can lead yourself and then you can lead others. And that's all we've got for tonight. And until next time, this is Echo and Jocko out.